Marion Nestle

It was fun. Thanks.

It was fun. Thanks.

I think the moment is particularly alarming because... We have seen this infiltrate our food supply and things that we take for granted, like milk, like eggs, in a way that just hadn't been really apparent to the average consumer before this. And we've seen more people getting infected. And there were hopes that when there was a spillover from wild birds into dairy cattle—

I think the moment is particularly alarming because... We have seen this infiltrate our food supply and things that we take for granted, like milk, like eggs, in a way that just hadn't been really apparent to the average consumer before this. And we've seen more people getting infected. And there were hopes that when there was a spillover from wild birds into dairy cattle—

That would kind of be contained. It would burn out. And that hasn't happened. We continue to see it spreading in cattle. And scientists continue to track ways in which this could become more dangerous. And I think it just has kind of reached a critical mass of concern right now.

That would kind of be contained. It would burn out. And that hasn't happened. We continue to see it spreading in cattle. And scientists continue to track ways in which this could become more dangerous. And I think it just has kind of reached a critical mass of concern right now.

And if I can point to something that Marion brought up, this idea that we don't necessarily know what's going on and don't want to think about it. We saw this last year when we realized, oh yeah, there's viral material from bird flu on our store shelves all over the country.

And if I can point to something that Marion brought up, this idea that we don't necessarily know what's going on and don't want to think about it. We saw this last year when we realized, oh yeah, there's viral material from bird flu on our store shelves all over the country.

And then, of course, there was a huge effort to test all of this and determine, okay, it's pasteurized, it's safe, you're not going to get infected from milk being sold on retail stores. But It was a moment of, oh, wow, yeah, I'm drinking something that has remnants of bird flu in it. And I don't know how long that stayed in people's minds.

And then, of course, there was a huge effort to test all of this and determine, okay, it's pasteurized, it's safe, you're not going to get infected from milk being sold on retail stores. But It was a moment of, oh, wow, yeah, I'm drinking something that has remnants of bird flu in it. And I don't know how long that stayed in people's minds.

Well, it's been incredibly challenging bridging these two areas of public health, the human side and the animal side. You see USDA does all the animal testing and handles that stuff. Then you have CDC and other folks looking for infections in humans. And, you know, there's limited authority on the human side.

Well, it's been incredibly challenging bridging these two areas of public health, the human side and the animal side. You see USDA does all the animal testing and handles that stuff. Then you have CDC and other folks looking for infections in humans. And, you know, there's limited authority on the human side.

So it's been a challenge throughout the last year as we've seen this response going on, making these decisions. Different groups speak to each other. And also, of course, the industry, the dairy industry, the egg industry, you know, wants to be protective of kind of who's identified as having outbreaks. They don't want their business to be harmed.

So it's been a challenge throughout the last year as we've seen this response going on, making these decisions. Different groups speak to each other. And also, of course, the industry, the dairy industry, the egg industry, you know, wants to be protective of kind of who's identified as having outbreaks. They don't want their business to be harmed.

And this all makes it really hard sometimes for from a communication standpoint.

And this all makes it really hard sometimes for from a communication standpoint.

So RFK has this messaging around raw milk, right? We're talking about bird flu. He's a big proponent of raw milk and talking about getting all kinds of additives and kind of pesticides out of our food. And at the same time, the platform of the Trump administration is generally deregulate things. So there are internal kind of

So RFK has this messaging around raw milk, right? We're talking about bird flu. He's a big proponent of raw milk and talking about getting all kinds of additives and kind of pesticides out of our food. And at the same time, the platform of the Trump administration is generally deregulate things. So there are internal kind of

tensions here around how all of this is going to happen when we think about just regulation around food and ingredients in general. I mean, when we think about bird flu specifically, RFK Jr. has made it clear that, you know, he doesn't really think the vaccines are any good. I mean, he said they appear dangerous, you know, last year on Twitter.

tensions here around how all of this is going to happen when we think about just regulation around food and ingredients in general. I mean, when we think about bird flu specifically, RFK Jr. has made it clear that, you know, he doesn't really think the vaccines are any good. I mean, he said they appear dangerous, you know, last year on Twitter.

And he would have huge influence over how this response is handled as the head of the Department of Health and Human Services.

And he would have huge influence over how this response is handled as the head of the Department of Health and Human Services.

Of course.

Of course.

Let's go. Sure.

Let's go. Sure.

Leprosy.

Leprosy.

Arizona.

Arizona.

It was fun. Thanks.

I think the moment is particularly alarming because... We have seen this infiltrate our food supply and things that we take for granted, like milk, like eggs, in a way that just hadn't been really apparent to the average consumer before this. And we've seen more people getting infected. And there were hopes that when there was a spillover from wild birds into dairy cattle—

That would kind of be contained. It would burn out. And that hasn't happened. We continue to see it spreading in cattle. And scientists continue to track ways in which this could become more dangerous. And I think it just has kind of reached a critical mass of concern right now.

And if I can point to something that Marion brought up, this idea that we don't necessarily know what's going on and don't want to think about it. We saw this last year when we realized, oh yeah, there's viral material from bird flu on our store shelves all over the country.

And then, of course, there was a huge effort to test all of this and determine, okay, it's pasteurized, it's safe, you're not going to get infected from milk being sold on retail stores. But It was a moment of, oh, wow, yeah, I'm drinking something that has remnants of bird flu in it. And I don't know how long that stayed in people's minds.

Well, it's been incredibly challenging bridging these two areas of public health, the human side and the animal side. You see USDA does all the animal testing and handles that stuff. Then you have CDC and other folks looking for infections in humans. And, you know, there's limited authority on the human side.

So it's been a challenge throughout the last year as we've seen this response going on, making these decisions. Different groups speak to each other. And also, of course, the industry, the dairy industry, the egg industry, you know, wants to be protective of kind of who's identified as having outbreaks. They don't want their business to be harmed.

And this all makes it really hard sometimes for from a communication standpoint.

So RFK has this messaging around raw milk, right? We're talking about bird flu. He's a big proponent of raw milk and talking about getting all kinds of additives and kind of pesticides out of our food. And at the same time, the platform of the Trump administration is generally deregulate things. So there are internal kind of

tensions here around how all of this is going to happen when we think about just regulation around food and ingredients in general. I mean, when we think about bird flu specifically, RFK Jr. has made it clear that, you know, he doesn't really think the vaccines are any good. I mean, he said they appear dangerous, you know, last year on Twitter.

And he would have huge influence over how this response is handled as the head of the Department of Health and Human Services.

Of course.

Let's go. Sure.

Leprosy.

Arizona.

I was very disappointed. Mm-hmm.

I was very disappointed. Mm-hmm.

For all of those. For all of those. You know, I think if we're really going to change the food system, the first thing we have to do is get money out of politics. But that's a little off topic.

For all of those. For all of those. You know, I think if we're really going to change the food system, the first thing we have to do is get money out of politics. But that's a little off topic.

Yeah, I mean, that's my trajectory. Mm-hmm. The first thing I was interested in was vitamins. I loved them all. They're all so interesting. Each one is different. They do different things in the body. To me, they were intellectually fascinating. I just adored them. And then I realized that people don't eat vitamins, except people who take supplements, and they eat food.

Yeah, I mean, that's my trajectory. Mm-hmm. The first thing I was interested in was vitamins. I loved them all. They're all so interesting. Each one is different. They do different things in the body. To me, they were intellectually fascinating. I just adored them. And then I realized that people don't eat vitamins, except people who take supplements, and they eat food.

And food is really complicated. Eventually, I thought, well, wait a minute. People don't eat food. They eat diets. They're eating lots of different foods. These foods interact in different ways. The basic principles of nutrition are try to eat as much of a variety of real food as you can. I mean, the big change was the shift from not having enough nutrients to having too many calories.

And food is really complicated. Eventually, I thought, well, wait a minute. People don't eat food. They eat diets. They're eating lots of different foods. These foods interact in different ways. The basic principles of nutrition are try to eat as much of a variety of real food as you can. I mean, the big change was the shift from not having enough nutrients to having too many calories.

And then in 1980, the inflection point, when President Reagan was elected and lots and lots of policy changes took place, then rates of obesity, the prevalence of obesity started to rise very, very rapidly. The reasons for that, I think, are pretty well understood. People ate more. And there's tons of evidence that people started eating more in the 1980s.

And then in 1980, the inflection point, when President Reagan was elected and lots and lots of policy changes took place, then rates of obesity, the prevalence of obesity started to rise very, very rapidly. The reasons for that, I think, are pretty well understood. People ate more. And there's tons of evidence that people started eating more in the 1980s.

80s, portion sizes got larger, a sufficient explanation.

80s, portion sizes got larger, a sufficient explanation.

I like real food. I mean, I have my favorite junk foods and I eat my favorite junk foods. I just don't eat a lot of them.

I like real food. I mean, I have my favorite junk foods and I eat my favorite junk foods. I just don't eat a lot of them.

Well, just that this is such an interesting time in American politics. And I think it would be wonderful if RFK Jr. could make the food supply healthier. I just think that in order to do that, he's going to have to take on the food industry. And I don't think Trump has a... of taking on corporations of any kind. So we'll see. Maybe he'll get them to volunteer.

Well, just that this is such an interesting time in American politics. And I think it would be wonderful if RFK Jr. could make the food supply healthier. I just think that in order to do that, he's going to have to take on the food industry. And I don't think Trump has a... of taking on corporations of any kind. So we'll see. Maybe he'll get them to volunteer.

Maybe he'll be able to do what Michelle Obama was unable to do because of the opposition.

Maybe he'll be able to do what Michelle Obama was unable to do because of the opposition.

Well, first of all, when President Trump tweeted that he was nominating RFK Jr. for this position, he talked about the food industrial complex. I nearly fell off my chair. That sounds like me. I talk about the food industrial complex. And the first thing—

Well, first of all, when President Trump tweeted that he was nominating RFK Jr. for this position, he talked about the food industrial complex. I nearly fell off my chair. That sounds like me. I talk about the food industrial complex. And the first thing—

that the president did was to appoint this high-level counsel, which is to write a report on the nutritional health of the population and how to prevent chronic disease. And when I read that, I thought, this is so exciting. And my second thought was, wait a minute, I've seen this already. Didn't we already do this? Isn't this exactly what Michelle Obama did? Well, that's what I want to ask you.

that the president did was to appoint this high-level counsel, which is to write a report on the nutritional health of the population and how to prevent chronic disease. And when I read that, I thought, this is so exciting. And my second thought was, wait a minute, I've seen this already. Didn't we already do this? Isn't this exactly what Michelle Obama did? Well, that's what I want to ask you.

Let me first state very clearly that nobody has asked me. I think what you have to do, first of all, is you have to put restrictions on the food industry. You have to stop the food industry from marketing junk foods to kids, ultra-processed if you like. You've got to stop that. Is RFK Jr. going to take on the food industry? I'll believe it when I see it.

Let me first state very clearly that nobody has asked me. I think what you have to do, first of all, is you have to put restrictions on the food industry. You have to stop the food industry from marketing junk foods to kids, ultra-processed if you like. You've got to stop that. Is RFK Jr. going to take on the food industry? I'll believe it when I see it.

When Michelle Obama attempted to do even much, much less than this just to get food companies to voluntarily stop marketing junk foods to kids, the pushback on it was extraordinary from exactly the people who are for it now. Well, I'm glad times have changed. I want to see them do something.

When Michelle Obama attempted to do even much, much less than this just to get food companies to voluntarily stop marketing junk foods to kids, the pushback on it was extraordinary from exactly the people who are for it now. Well, I'm glad times have changed. I want to see them do something.

You have to understand the background of this a little bit, and that is that a professor of public health in Brazil, Carlos Monteiro, devised this concept in 2009, and he divided foods into four categories, unprocessed or minimally processed foods like corn on the cob or apples or... you know, things that you just eat. A second category was processed culinary ingredients.

You have to understand the background of this a little bit, and that is that a professor of public health in Brazil, Carlos Monteiro, devised this concept in 2009, and he divided foods into four categories, unprocessed or minimally processed foods like corn on the cob or apples or... you know, things that you just eat. A second category was processed culinary ingredients.

And by that, he means salt, sugars, salad oils, vinegar, the kinds of things that you cook with. And then the third category is processed foods, things that are frozen, foods that have been packaged, foods that have been cut and processed in some way. But they're really pretty simple. The fourth category is different. These are foods that have been industrially processed.

And by that, he means salt, sugars, salad oils, vinegar, the kinds of things that you cook with. And then the third category is processed foods, things that are frozen, foods that have been packaged, foods that have been cut and processed in some way. But they're really pretty simple. The fourth category is different. These are foods that have been industrially processed.

The operating definition is you can't make them in your home kitchen.

The operating definition is you can't make them in your home kitchen.

The prototype.

The prototype.

This is the prototypical ultra-processed food because it started out with corn. Corn is the first ingredient. Does this look anything like corn to you? No. Not so much. Industrially processed. Yeah. It's got real food in it. It has corn, vegetable oil, but then it has corn maltodextrin as the third ingredient.

This is the prototypical ultra-processed food because it started out with corn. Corn is the first ingredient. Does this look anything like corn to you? No. Not so much. Industrially processed. Yeah. It's got real food in it. It has corn, vegetable oil, but then it has corn maltodextrin as the third ingredient.

But it's got things like whey protein concentrate, potassium salt, tomato powder, lactose, spices, artificial colors, lots of them, disodium inositate, disodium guanylate.

But it's got things like whey protein concentrate, potassium salt, tomato powder, lactose, spices, artificial colors, lots of them, disodium inositate, disodium guanylate.

I don't have that in my kitchen, and I cannot buy it at my local grocery store. These foods are processed to make them. A lot of people use the word addiction. I'm a little uncomfortable with it, but there it is. The idea that that old Frito-Lay's commercial that you can't eat just one, that's exactly the point of these. These foods were deliberately designed to be profitable.

I don't have that in my kitchen, and I cannot buy it at my local grocery store. These foods are processed to make them. A lot of people use the word addiction. I'm a little uncomfortable with it, but there it is. The idea that that old Frito-Lay's commercial that you can't eat just one, that's exactly the point of these. These foods were deliberately designed to be profitable.

That was their purpose. They weren't designed for public health purposes.

That was their purpose. They weren't designed for public health purposes.

Whole wheat bread is in what I call the conditionally ultra-processed category because you can get whole wheat breads that are ultra-processed, and you can also get whole wheat breads that are not. Okay, the ingredient list. I love starting. Whole wheat flour, nothing wrong with that. Second, third ingredient, wheat gluten. Uh-oh. So that's to boost the protein content. Sugar, yeast, fine.

Whole wheat bread is in what I call the conditionally ultra-processed category because you can get whole wheat breads that are ultra-processed, and you can also get whole wheat breads that are not. Okay, the ingredient list. I love starting. Whole wheat flour, nothing wrong with that. Second, third ingredient, wheat gluten. Uh-oh. So that's to boost the protein content. Sugar, yeast, fine.

Vegetable oil, fine. Salt, fine. Preservatives, calcium propionate, sorbic acid, datum, natural flavors. There's no such thing. Monoglycerides, monocalcium phosphate, soy lecithin, citric acid, vinegar. Sesame seeds.

Vegetable oil, fine. Salt, fine. Preservatives, calcium propionate, sorbic acid, datum, natural flavors. There's no such thing. Monoglycerides, monocalcium phosphate, soy lecithin, citric acid, vinegar. Sesame seeds.

Ultra-processed. And why would they do that? Two reasons.

Ultra-processed. And why would they do that? Two reasons.

People like soft bread. People don't like whole wheat bread. Whole wheat bread is an acquired taste. It's very difficult for people. Humans have been making white bread for millennia because it tastes better. It's easier to digest. You don't have to chew it as much. This stuff is really soft.

People like soft bread. People don't like whole wheat bread. Whole wheat bread is an acquired taste. It's very difficult for people. Humans have been making white bread for millennia because it tastes better. It's easier to digest. You don't have to chew it as much. This stuff is really soft.

Very, very soft. So that's what the datum and these other things in there are doing. And it'll sit on the shelf for a really long time. It won't get moldy.

Very, very soft. So that's what the datum and these other things in there are doing. And it'll sit on the shelf for a really long time. It won't get moldy.

So what's this one? So it's got cultured grade A nonfat milk. Yes. Water. Yes. Modified food starch. Sigh. Oh, it's got allulose, one of those indigestible sweeteners. Kosher gelatin, cornstarch, citric acid. Where'd you find this? Sucralose, an artificial sweetener. Tricalcium phosphate, potassium sorbate. Oh, another artificial sweetener. This thing has three artificial sweeteners in it.

So what's this one? So it's got cultured grade A nonfat milk. Yes. Water. Yes. Modified food starch. Sigh. Oh, it's got allulose, one of those indigestible sweeteners. Kosher gelatin, cornstarch, citric acid. Where'd you find this? Sucralose, an artificial sweetener. Tricalcium phosphate, potassium sorbate. Oh, another artificial sweetener. This thing has three artificial sweeteners in it.

Doesn't have any sugar. Doesn't say anything about the cultures. What you want in yogurt is you want all those friendly bacteria to make your microbiome happy. I'm not sure the friendly bacteria like all this stuff.

Doesn't have any sugar. Doesn't say anything about the cultures. What you want in yogurt is you want all those friendly bacteria to make your microbiome happy. I'm not sure the friendly bacteria like all this stuff.

It's common sense. Okay. I mean, everybody knows what junk foods are. You know, when I talk about ultra-processed foods, everybody gets it right away.

It's common sense. Okay. I mean, everybody knows what junk foods are. You know, when I talk about ultra-processed foods, everybody gets it right away.

If you've got a yogurt in front of you and it's got M&Ms added to it and it's loaded with sugar and it tastes like a dessert, you know that you're dealing with something that's ultra-processed.

If you've got a yogurt in front of you and it's got M&Ms added to it and it's loaded with sugar and it tastes like a dessert, you know that you're dealing with something that's ultra-processed.

The point about the ultra-processed food classification is that people were able to do research. And this research has been overwhelming in its consistency. Let me tell you, in nutrition, this is very unusual. Yeah. It's unusual to have this level of consistency where every study of ultra-processed food shows that people who eat a lot of these kinds of things have worse health outcomes. Yeah.

The point about the ultra-processed food classification is that people were able to do research. And this research has been overwhelming in its consistency. Let me tell you, in nutrition, this is very unusual. Yeah. It's unusual to have this level of consistency where every study of ultra-processed food shows that people who eat a lot of these kinds of things have worse health outcomes. Yeah.

And the controlled clinical trials that show that these foods get people to eat more, not only more, but a lot more.

And the controlled clinical trials that show that these foods get people to eat more, not only more, but a lot more.

The observational research looks at what people self-report eating. All it can do is demonstrate association, that if you eat a lot of ultra-processed foods, the chances are—and we're talking about probabilities here—you have a higher chance of gaining weight, becoming obese, and having type 2 diabetes, having heart disease later on.

The observational research looks at what people self-report eating. All it can do is demonstrate association, that if you eat a lot of ultra-processed foods, the chances are—and we're talking about probabilities here—you have a higher chance of gaining weight, becoming obese, and having type 2 diabetes, having heart disease later on.

And the problem with self-reports in nutrition is, I'm going to put this politely, people have a hard time remembering what they eat. You know, out and out, they lie. So to get around that, you need really well-controlled clinical trials.

And the problem with self-reports in nutrition is, I'm going to put this politely, people have a hard time remembering what they eat. You know, out and out, they lie. So to get around that, you need really well-controlled clinical trials.

These are breathtakingly expensive to run because they require a locked metabolic ward facility in which people volunteer to be locked up for some period of time, never more than four weeks because people can't stand it. And everything they eat, drink...

These are breathtakingly expensive to run because they require a locked metabolic ward facility in which people volunteer to be locked up for some period of time, never more than four weeks because people can't stand it. And everything they eat, drink...

or ingest is monitored and everything they excrete is monitored and their behavior and their physical activity and everything else is monitored and they can't lie or cheat.

or ingest is monitored and everything they excrete is monitored and their behavior and their physical activity and everything else is monitored and they can't lie or cheat.

It's just an enormous – and they gained weight. Of course they gained weight. They gained a pound a week. That's 500 calories a day, 3,500 calories a week. That's a pound.

It's just an enormous – and they gained weight. Of course they gained weight. They gained a pound a week. That's 500 calories a day, 3,500 calories a week. That's a pound.

The people who were in this study didn't know which diet they were eating. So because they all tasted good, they liked the food. The shifts must be unbelievable. Then the big heavy criticism of the study is that it's too short and that there would be regression to the mean later on. And that's possible.

The people who were in this study didn't know which diet they were eating. So because they all tasted good, they liked the food. The shifts must be unbelievable. Then the big heavy criticism of the study is that it's too short and that there would be regression to the mean later on. And that's possible.

So I tell the critics, great, go ahead and criticize, but why aren't you fighting to get him more money to do longer studies with more people?

So I tell the critics, great, go ahead and criticize, but why aren't you fighting to get him more money to do longer studies with more people?

Well, we know that works with salt.

Well, we know that works with salt.

We absolutely know that. And with sugar. But those are difficult theories. I like simple explanations. The simple explanation is these things just are so yummy that people can't stop eating them. You know when you're eating a salad. You know when you've had enough salad. You've got a bunch of Oreo cookies in front of you. Well, I'll just have one more. They're small.

We absolutely know that. And with sugar. But those are difficult theories. I like simple explanations. The simple explanation is these things just are so yummy that people can't stop eating them. You know when you're eating a salad. You know when you've had enough salad. You've got a bunch of Oreo cookies in front of you. Well, I'll just have one more. They're small.

They deliberately excluded any consideration of the controlled clinical trials because they said they were too short. So they were completely dismissed as if they never existed. All of the studies that they looked at were either animal studies or observational studies. And on that basis, they said, well, we can't make a decision about it. I thought that was a very weak recommendation.

They deliberately excluded any consideration of the controlled clinical trials because they said they were too short. So they were completely dismissed as if they never existed. All of the studies that they looked at were either animal studies or observational studies. And on that basis, they said, well, we can't make a decision about it. I thought that was a very weak recommendation.

I was very disappointed. Mm-hmm.

For all of those. For all of those. You know, I think if we're really going to change the food system, the first thing we have to do is get money out of politics. But that's a little off topic.

Yeah, I mean, that's my trajectory. Mm-hmm. The first thing I was interested in was vitamins. I loved them all. They're all so interesting. Each one is different. They do different things in the body. To me, they were intellectually fascinating. I just adored them. And then I realized that people don't eat vitamins, except people who take supplements, and they eat food.

And food is really complicated. Eventually, I thought, well, wait a minute. People don't eat food. They eat diets. They're eating lots of different foods. These foods interact in different ways. The basic principles of nutrition are try to eat as much of a variety of real food as you can. I mean, the big change was the shift from not having enough nutrients to having too many calories.

And then in 1980, the inflection point, when President Reagan was elected and lots and lots of policy changes took place, then rates of obesity, the prevalence of obesity started to rise very, very rapidly. The reasons for that, I think, are pretty well understood. People ate more. And there's tons of evidence that people started eating more in the 1980s.

80s, portion sizes got larger, a sufficient explanation.

I like real food. I mean, I have my favorite junk foods and I eat my favorite junk foods. I just don't eat a lot of them.

Well, just that this is such an interesting time in American politics. And I think it would be wonderful if RFK Jr. could make the food supply healthier. I just think that in order to do that, he's going to have to take on the food industry. And I don't think Trump has a... of taking on corporations of any kind. So we'll see. Maybe he'll get them to volunteer.

Maybe he'll be able to do what Michelle Obama was unable to do because of the opposition.

Well, first of all, when President Trump tweeted that he was nominating RFK Jr. for this position, he talked about the food industrial complex. I nearly fell off my chair. That sounds like me. I talk about the food industrial complex. And the first thing—

that the president did was to appoint this high-level counsel, which is to write a report on the nutritional health of the population and how to prevent chronic disease. And when I read that, I thought, this is so exciting. And my second thought was, wait a minute, I've seen this already. Didn't we already do this? Isn't this exactly what Michelle Obama did? Well, that's what I want to ask you.

Let me first state very clearly that nobody has asked me. I think what you have to do, first of all, is you have to put restrictions on the food industry. You have to stop the food industry from marketing junk foods to kids, ultra-processed if you like. You've got to stop that. Is RFK Jr. going to take on the food industry? I'll believe it when I see it.

When Michelle Obama attempted to do even much, much less than this just to get food companies to voluntarily stop marketing junk foods to kids, the pushback on it was extraordinary from exactly the people who are for it now. Well, I'm glad times have changed. I want to see them do something.

You have to understand the background of this a little bit, and that is that a professor of public health in Brazil, Carlos Monteiro, devised this concept in 2009, and he divided foods into four categories, unprocessed or minimally processed foods like corn on the cob or apples or... you know, things that you just eat. A second category was processed culinary ingredients.

And by that, he means salt, sugars, salad oils, vinegar, the kinds of things that you cook with. And then the third category is processed foods, things that are frozen, foods that have been packaged, foods that have been cut and processed in some way. But they're really pretty simple. The fourth category is different. These are foods that have been industrially processed.

The operating definition is you can't make them in your home kitchen.

The prototype.

This is the prototypical ultra-processed food because it started out with corn. Corn is the first ingredient. Does this look anything like corn to you? No. Not so much. Industrially processed. Yeah. It's got real food in it. It has corn, vegetable oil, but then it has corn maltodextrin as the third ingredient.

But it's got things like whey protein concentrate, potassium salt, tomato powder, lactose, spices, artificial colors, lots of them, disodium inositate, disodium guanylate.

I don't have that in my kitchen, and I cannot buy it at my local grocery store. These foods are processed to make them. A lot of people use the word addiction. I'm a little uncomfortable with it, but there it is. The idea that that old Frito-Lay's commercial that you can't eat just one, that's exactly the point of these. These foods were deliberately designed to be profitable.

That was their purpose. They weren't designed for public health purposes.

Whole wheat bread is in what I call the conditionally ultra-processed category because you can get whole wheat breads that are ultra-processed, and you can also get whole wheat breads that are not. Okay, the ingredient list. I love starting. Whole wheat flour, nothing wrong with that. Second, third ingredient, wheat gluten. Uh-oh. So that's to boost the protein content. Sugar, yeast, fine.

Vegetable oil, fine. Salt, fine. Preservatives, calcium propionate, sorbic acid, datum, natural flavors. There's no such thing. Monoglycerides, monocalcium phosphate, soy lecithin, citric acid, vinegar. Sesame seeds.

Ultra-processed. And why would they do that? Two reasons.

People like soft bread. People don't like whole wheat bread. Whole wheat bread is an acquired taste. It's very difficult for people. Humans have been making white bread for millennia because it tastes better. It's easier to digest. You don't have to chew it as much. This stuff is really soft.

Very, very soft. So that's what the datum and these other things in there are doing. And it'll sit on the shelf for a really long time. It won't get moldy.

So what's this one? So it's got cultured grade A nonfat milk. Yes. Water. Yes. Modified food starch. Sigh. Oh, it's got allulose, one of those indigestible sweeteners. Kosher gelatin, cornstarch, citric acid. Where'd you find this? Sucralose, an artificial sweetener. Tricalcium phosphate, potassium sorbate. Oh, another artificial sweetener. This thing has three artificial sweeteners in it.

Doesn't have any sugar. Doesn't say anything about the cultures. What you want in yogurt is you want all those friendly bacteria to make your microbiome happy. I'm not sure the friendly bacteria like all this stuff.

It's common sense. Okay. I mean, everybody knows what junk foods are. You know, when I talk about ultra-processed foods, everybody gets it right away.

If you've got a yogurt in front of you and it's got M&Ms added to it and it's loaded with sugar and it tastes like a dessert, you know that you're dealing with something that's ultra-processed.

The point about the ultra-processed food classification is that people were able to do research. And this research has been overwhelming in its consistency. Let me tell you, in nutrition, this is very unusual. Yeah. It's unusual to have this level of consistency where every study of ultra-processed food shows that people who eat a lot of these kinds of things have worse health outcomes. Yeah.

And the controlled clinical trials that show that these foods get people to eat more, not only more, but a lot more.

The observational research looks at what people self-report eating. All it can do is demonstrate association, that if you eat a lot of ultra-processed foods, the chances are—and we're talking about probabilities here—you have a higher chance of gaining weight, becoming obese, and having type 2 diabetes, having heart disease later on.

And the problem with self-reports in nutrition is, I'm going to put this politely, people have a hard time remembering what they eat. You know, out and out, they lie. So to get around that, you need really well-controlled clinical trials.

These are breathtakingly expensive to run because they require a locked metabolic ward facility in which people volunteer to be locked up for some period of time, never more than four weeks because people can't stand it. And everything they eat, drink...

or ingest is monitored and everything they excrete is monitored and their behavior and their physical activity and everything else is monitored and they can't lie or cheat.

It's just an enormous – and they gained weight. Of course they gained weight. They gained a pound a week. That's 500 calories a day, 3,500 calories a week. That's a pound.

The people who were in this study didn't know which diet they were eating. So because they all tasted good, they liked the food. The shifts must be unbelievable. Then the big heavy criticism of the study is that it's too short and that there would be regression to the mean later on. And that's possible.

So I tell the critics, great, go ahead and criticize, but why aren't you fighting to get him more money to do longer studies with more people?

Well, we know that works with salt.

We absolutely know that. And with sugar. But those are difficult theories. I like simple explanations. The simple explanation is these things just are so yummy that people can't stop eating them. You know when you're eating a salad. You know when you've had enough salad. You've got a bunch of Oreo cookies in front of you. Well, I'll just have one more. They're small.

They deliberately excluded any consideration of the controlled clinical trials because they said they were too short. So they were completely dismissed as if they never existed. All of the studies that they looked at were either animal studies or observational studies. And on that basis, they said, well, we can't make a decision about it. I thought that was a very weak recommendation.