Logan Ury
Appearances
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
I love that. It's like life of the party, but the party is your house. Yes, exactly. That's great.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like if you took the temperature on dating right now, there's a dating crisis. And why do you think that is? I feel like there's too many options and people are treating each other like they're disposable. Like I just don't think that we're really valuing each other.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
I have this question I like to ask people. Who is your penthouse person? So a penthouse person is like someone in your life who really raises your energy. When you walk away from them, there's pep in your step. You love being around them. Is that the opposite sex? No, this can be a friend.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And then a basement person is someone like where you walk away and you're kind of like, oh, I feel worse about myself. Like, I don't know what it is. I feel a little anxious. You don't have to tell me who your basement person is, but you can think of someone. But can you think of someone who's your penthouse person where you just feel very energized by being with them?
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
How do you feel when you're around them?
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
So let's say that Kylie is your penthouse person. It's like in dating, I think a lot of times people come in with this checklist, especially as they get older, the list gets longer. Must be this tall, must have this job, must have this type of family. But instead, I really encourage people to think about what side of you does that person bring out and how do you feel around them?
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
So if you're like Kylie or some of my other siblings are my penthouse people, when I'm around someone, I want them to bring out that confident, smiley side of me. And I think that that shift really helps people because they sort of stop paying attention to what's on paper and their resume and they really pay attention to how do I feel around them.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And I think that's something that people have just lost sight of. Like paying attention to how you feel in your body I think is so underrated. Like I remember when I was interviewing at two different companies and it was so easy to say, well, this company will give me this perks and this company will give me that perk.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
But then when I actually thought about like how I felt in those interviews, it was so obvious which company I should work for. I think we have a hard time really ignoring those shinier on paper traits and really paying attention to what's my penthouse person and what's my penthouse job and things like that.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
probably in the beginning like I don't want to hang out with this person again or or sure but don't you think it takes a minute to really know how you're feeling on the inside because sometimes the honeymoon stage is oh definitely so blissful I mean sort of my unofficial motto is fuck the spark and that's really based on this idea that so many of the people that I would coach would come to me and say I met this guy he was great we had a good time I'm never gonna see him again
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And then I would say, why? And they would say, I just didn't feel the spark. And so it was like this obsession with instant chemistry and fireworks and feeling like I'll know it when I see it. And I think that that actually holds people back. And so many of the best relationships that I've experienced that other people are in really have this slow burn feeling where it develops over time.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
well speaking of that isn't that similar to what you went through with your husband yeah yeah exactly yes I definitely think that I'm blessed with a slow burn relationship so you know it's interesting I work at a dating app but my husband and I first met in college and we just had a random lunch one day and then seven years later we were both working at Google and he said hi and then I had this lunch for
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
people who went to Harvard, who worked at Google. And we sort of just became friends. But at the same time, I was chasing this other guy that I had met at Burning Man. Have you ever been to Burning Man? I haven't, but I know all about it. Yeah. So it's like, of course, you like fall in love at Burning Man and everything's like so intense.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Yes. Yeah. Thank you for having me. Thank you for the kind words. And I love that you found me through later daters. So, yes, I actually would call myself a dating coach over a matchmaker. So really less focused on connecting people and really focused on helping people understand. Here's how you've been dating in the past. Here's why it's not working.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And so it's like met this great guy, but was not thinking about him. I was really chasing this guy from Burning Man. And when I look back, I have so much empathy for that version of myself, but I really was in pain where I When you really, really like someone and they don't like you back, instead of just accepting it, I just went through all these mental hoops to try to get him to like me.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And it's like, yeah, I feel sad about it. It's like, how can I convince this person that I'm worthy? How can I make this person fall for me? Instead of the advice that I would give that person now, which is if they're not choosing you, then they're not the right person for you.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Yeah, it really sucks because you're like, oh, I'm not good enough. Instead of like, we're not the right match. And like, how can I prove I'm good enough? Like this person is now the person who can evaluate me. So then I was so upset about this whole situation with this guy from Burning Man. I remember like crying on my friend's couch.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And then he was like, you know, I really think you should see a dating coach. And then I ended up seeing my own coach. And so this was before I did like the kind of work I do now. And this woman really helped me understand what I wanted in a relationship and how I wanted someone to make me feel.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And when I thought about how I wanted someone to make me feel, you know, it was desired and valued and secure. I realized I felt the opposite with this Burning Man guy. He made me feel insecure and not valued. But this guy at work who had been tutoring me in the statistical programming language was so funny. He made me feel those things. And it was kind of like...
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
How familiar are you with the movie Clueless?
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Okay, very. So, you know, like towards the end of the movie, she's like walking down, I feel like she's shopping somewhere in LA and then she like is near some sort of fountain and she's like, oh my God, like it's him. It's been him. Like I kind of had that moment where I was like, it's this guy from work. He makes me feel these ways. Wow.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And so, you know, we started hanging out a little bit more. And then eventually I was like, hey, I don't have plans on Friday. You should ask me out, which is I asked him out. I love that. Yeah, and then that really became our love story. And that was 10 years ago. And so I feel like I had been chasing these sparky guys who were, you know,
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
so dynamic and charismatic and as soon as you meet them you want to be around them more but instead I married this slow burn guy who I feel like not everyone else saw how special he was but 10 years later I'm like I feel like I won the lottery and you did yeah I'm sure everyone is like we need the slow burn right but I I want to train people to look for the slow burn because like the spark is so attractive and
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Let's make a plan for how you can date differently. And then that's how you're going to date like a scientist and get different results.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And I feel like there's all these myths of the spark. Like one is that if it's the right person, you'll feel instant chemistry. That's just not true. Sometimes you have to get to know someone more. I'm sure you have people like this in your life where every time you see them, you like them more and more because they open up. Yes.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Versus some people are super sparky when you meet them and you're like, oh, I really felt something with that guy. And then your friend's like, I really felt something with that guy, too. It's like, no, that guy's just really sparky. Right. And it can feel confusing. And sometimes that spark is actually anxiety and alarm bells that we mistake for butterflies. Right.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And then the third myth is that if you have a spark at the beginning, then it's going to be a great long term relationship. Right. And that's not true. Think about how many relationships start with a spark and then burn out really quickly. And a lot of people that I've met, they stay with the wrong person because they met the right way. What do you mean by that?
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
It's like people are just so obsessed with the love story. Got it. I was supposed to get on this flight, but I missed it. And then he was in line with me at TSA. And if I had made that flight and it's like they love telling that story and they're ready to tell that story in their vows. But then they reject the fact that like this relationship is actually not that good.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And I think like, you know, I love Disney movies. I love rom-coms, but they do create this idea that the how you met is so important. And if you're with someone for 50 years, the day that you meet is .0055% of your total time together. So who cares how you met? You can meet in an unromantic way and have a very romantic relationship. Do you feel like you're guilty of falling for the spark?
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
What does it feel like for you?
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Yeah. What number are we on?
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Well, it's so interesting because I almost wonder if you overcorrected. If you're like, all right, 2.0 version of myself jumped headfirst into relationships. So 4.0 version needs to really slow down. Yes. But perhaps you've slowed down too much. Because if we're allowed to talk about your quiz results. Oh, tell me. Yeah, so your quiz results suggested that you are a hesitator.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And so a hesitator is someone who's not putting themselves out there and dating because they feel like, oh, I'm not 100% who I wanna be yet and I wanna work on myself more and then I'll be ready to date. And for you, it might be, I wanna just really focus on motherhood in this time or this just isn't the moment. And so for the hesitator, it's like they have an identity of I'm not a dater right now.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Okay. So I was thinking before our conversation like where would you meet people? It's like you're not going to be on an app. I don't think that – So people always ask me if I'm on Riot.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
It's, like, application only. It does tend to attract, like, certain celebrities or athletes, but it's, like, I just... I can't really see you with where you are in life, like, being on an app. I can't either.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And so, like, wait, this idea just, like, popped into my head. Okay. Okay, imagine if you're, like, two... weekdays a month I'm gonna have a dinner party in my house and I'm gonna ask friends to bring random people guys like men and women like not like putting pressure on it not making it into a dating show and then just putting yourself in situations where you're meeting more people like
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
safe people that someone's vouching for and it's not a one-on-one date where you feel like okay like am I going to introduce them to my kids or this is awkward that I have a man over but just exposing yourself to more new people in a safe way where you can see how they interact with you and other people and then through that maybe just like expanding your network and one of those people you'll have a crush on.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
You're creating the environment and then people are bringing people to meet you both as friends and potential partners. I think it's kind of a way to slow roll into it.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And imagine, so okay, like a while ago, my friend and I did these dinners called Intrigued, where like imagine, well, this is more my life than your life, like you're at a conference and you meet someone and you wanna see them again, but it's like too forward to say, do you wanna get a drink?
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And you're not ready to hang out one-on-one, but then you text them and you say like, I find you intriguing. I'm gonna bring you to this Intrigued dinner with other people that we find intriguing. So you're already like very flattered. And then you come and you already have a good impression of everyone, because you're like,
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
they're all so intriguing and then you meet and you just have this interesting conversation i love that like i can just see you or you and a friend or you and a family member doing that and it's a way to bring what we call weak ties into your life so it's like you know who your own small circle knows but who are like the next level right the next layer and how can you bring like new people and new energy into your life in a way that feels safe you're probably at your best in your house not when you're like
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
you know worrying about paparazzi or something it's like how can you be the most comfortable authentic version of Chloe and bring people in and see like do they fit in my home does this feel comfortable no I love that and I'm always like oh it's getting late gotta go home but when I'm at home I'm like oh I'm fine I don't know what I'm getting home to like I just like to be
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
I think that's a cool way to like ease yourself back into the waters because for my hesitators, the people who get that on the quiz, I'm like, you kind of have an identity of I'm not dating. And then it's hard to welcome new romantic energy into your life. Whereas if you say I'm open to dating, you know, I haven't dated in a while, but I'm open to it.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
I do think that energetically things change because right now, if you just think I'm not dating, I feel like things won't change. Yeah.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Yes. You know, a lot of my research has been with Gen Z and millennial daters. And then on the show, it was over 55. And I was kind of nervous beforehand. I was like, this isn't my typical demographic. I don't know if everything's going to apply.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
But I actually found that so much of what I teach and all these lessons about love are really universal because dating is a skill and it can be taught at any age.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
I mean, they're kind of like Gen X slash boomer.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
hard to like to get them out of that old school mindset that they have because I still feel like I have an old school mindset yeah so there's differences in each generation so I've done a lot of research on Gen Z I work as the director of relationship science at Hinge so I work at that dating app and then I get to do a lot of research one thing about Gen Z is a lot of them came of age during the pandemic I think that that did have a big impact on people's social skills right
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Like imagine if you were in high school and like everyone in your class was talking to each other and flirting before class and then all of a sudden you're all home isolated on Zoom. You do sort of miss out on some of those essential flirting skills. You know, if your prom was canceled, you didn't have that prom date and that prom first kiss and all of that.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
But why? When I was able to get my license – actually, I'm a bad example of this because I was really afraid of getting my license. But most people that weren't me were getting their license as soon as they could. Oh, I was stealing cars at 14.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
So with your nephew, what do you think is going on?
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Oh, yeah, yeah. I can go through all of that.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
have coached a lot of different people i noticed that even though there are different people from different walks of life they had one thing in common which was unrealistic expectations and so i designed this framework called the three dating tendencies so you took that quiz and people can take it on my website so the first one it's really easy yeah yeah it takes 10 minutes yeah right
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
So the first one is the romanticizer, which is actually what I thought you were going to be. So the romanticizer is the person who's like, there's a soulmate out there for me. There's one person when I meet them all know they're very focused on the we met.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And what happens to romanticizers is often when they meet someone who's not in the package that they expected or when the relationship hits that inevitable rough spot, they think, oh, this must not be my person because if it was my soulmate, it would be easier than this.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
So the homework for the romanticizer is to understand that, of course, relationships are hard and that it doesn't matter how you met. It matters that you met. And then the second type, which is a lot of what I deal with with CEOs and people in New York and the Bay Area, is maximizers. I'm sure you know a lot of people like this. They have unrealistic expectations of their partner.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And so I do feel like with Gen Z there are some differences versus millennials. Also just being digital natives, growing up with phones, all of those things I think impact it. And then millennials are the first generation that really had dating apps. And I think that dating is so different now from even 10 years ago.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
So they think, they come to my house with spreadsheets and they're like, I want the looks of this girl, the ambition of this girl, the family of this girl. Find me someone like that. And they're always searching for the perfect person. And they feel like, oh, I'm close. But if I found this girl, I want to find someone even better. And so they feel like there's someone perfect out there.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Instead of understanding that you could make it work with many people, it's about choosing someone great and investing in that. And that really great relationships are built. They're not discovered. Right. And so how can you truly find something great and build it versus just trying to like trade up all the time. And then the third type, which is what you were on the quiz, is the hesitator.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And they have unrealistic expectations of themselves. So they're often feeling like I'm not ready to date yet or I'm not exactly who I want to be or whatever. When my kids are in school, I'll be ready to date. When I clean up my apartment, yeah, when I get a different job, when I have more time. And so they are creating these hurdles of I can't date until this.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And then once they kind of overcome that hurdle, they move the goalposts and it's another one. And so for hesitators, a lot of the work is choosing a date, choosing a deadline and saying, I'm going to start dating. having an identity around being a dater, being open to dating and really just having some accountability. So it's like, can you bring back Taco Tuesdays?
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Can one of your siblings or one of your friends be like, Chloe, we're doing this. Doesn't have to be every Tuesday, but just once a month, we're going to do Taco Tuesday. It's going to be really fun. It's going to feel safe. And like, Just creating an environment where you're more open to people entering your life.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
I mean, doesn't that sound fun? It does. I want to eat tacos on Tuesdays. Like that sounds great.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And having it be something that you're looking forward to instead of something with like a lot of pressure, a lot of sacrifices around it. It's like you're bringing into your home people that you love and then also a few new people.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
It's like sprinkling them in. Yeah, I love that.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
I definitely think people can change. There's this concept from the Harvard psychologist Daniel Gilbert called the end of history illusion. So if you say to somebody who's 30, how much did you change in the last 10 years? They'll say, so much. I'm totally different. Then you say, how much will you change in the next 10 years? And they'll say, not much. I'm done changing.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And so it's like people actually change a lot, but their projection is that they won't change that much. And so I think if we just all embrace the fact that we're
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Like it used to be that people would meet through family and friends or at a bar or at work. And then since 2017, the number one way that people meet is online. I do think that that's just blowing up everything that we know about dating. Yes. And then for the older daters, a lot of them have been married. once or twice on this show.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Yeah, I mean, I think when I look around and see the stories about motherhood, like this is what I'd say. I'd say pregnancy and labor are harder than people talk about. Maybe women don't want to freak other women out. I think it actually is like a scary thing. Like women are still dying in childbirth.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And so I kind of feel like many moms that I've talked to are like, yeah, that was way more real than I expected. But I think motherhood is so much greater than people talk about it. I had an easy pregnancy. Like I don't know how most people feel, but I actually liked being pregnant. I felt like it kind of like I don't even know how it evened me out. Like I like not getting my period.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
I shot my TV show when I was pregnant. Like I happen to really like it. And then like one day I just noticed like, oh, my hands are swelling and I called the doctor and I, you know, I spoke to the nurse and she was like, here are the signs of preeclampsia. It's like, you know, swelling in your extremities, headaches.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
some blurriness or floaters in your eyes, like pain, like above your stomach, like under your rib cage. And I was like, okay, well, I don't really have those. And then like a week later, I just wasn't feeling well. And I was in the shower and I started going through the symptoms and it was kind of like everything was flashing before my eyes because I was like, wait, I do have floaters right now.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
I do have this pain in my stomach. And as I was in the shower, I started saying this thing over and over in my head, which was like, I'm gonna get out of the shower and say to my husband, I don't mean to freak you out, but I think we have to call the nurse's hotline. And then I got out of the shower. I told him, they said, take your blood pressure. And it was through the roof.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And we were supposed to go to the ballet that night. And he was like, oh, I don't wanna cross the bridge to San Francisco where I was supposed to give birth. Let's just go to the local Berkeley hospital. So we're like, okay, fine. So we just went there. And then all of a sudden, everything moved so quickly. They were like, You have severe preeclampsia. You're admitted to this hospital.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
You're not allowed to leave. Like you are now a patient of this hospital. And like you will be here.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Yeah. So they were like, you're not going to leave this hospital. Like the latest that you would give birth is in two weeks. So then just like everything started happening really fast. And-
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
this is like such like a 2023 like tech moment my husband works in tech but like I didn't really know how bad things were until my husband went home to get some stuff and he was like send me the master password for your one password like basically for my password manager and I was like am I gonna die like why do you need my master password oh my god I love Yeah, he's really funny.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
I mean, sort of my unofficial motto is the spark, this obsession with instant chemistry and fireworks. And I think that that actually holds people back. So many of the best relationships really have this slow burn feeling where it develops over time. I love Disney movies. I love rom-coms. But they do create this idea that the how you met is so important.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And so, yeah, basically like, you know, then things started to look better, but they woke me up. So I went to the hospital at 4 p.m. And then they woke me up the next morning at 3 a.m. And they're like, your body is shutting down. You now have help syndrome. Like the only cure for this is help syndrome. It's basically like a worse version of preeclampsia. Oh, wow.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
It's like, yeah, it's very dangerous. And so they were like, you need to give birth right now. So like I had an emergency C-section at 32 weeks and
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And I feel like for the older daters, there's just a sense of I'm afraid to put myself out there or I'm dating the same way I always have. I feel like women can't make the first move. And so for those older daters, I spent a lot of time, especially the women, telling them to throw out that outdated rule book And really date for how people date now.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
and it was so hard and she was in the NICU for six weeks and I felt like my husband just like was my brain for two months like I was a body that would move from my bed to the hospital to visit my daughter but I wasn't making decisions I the doctors would come talk to us and it was like I couldn't even understand what they were saying and like he just handled all the decisions and it's like when people are looking for someone to be with I think they say like
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
literally i can google it now and you'll see all these posts and you're like what and like why didn't the doctor tell her like that's what's so hard is i'm like i am an educated person i have access to great medical care but like i barely knew what preeclampsia was i had not read a single book about pregnancy about having a kid i was like that's what january is for and like she came in december so like yeah
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
how did I not know what preeclampsia was? And that's one of those things where I'm just like, I do hope that people see this and know what those symptoms are. Get a blood pressure machine to check it at home. That was one thing that was helpful for us. And I wish I'd checked my blood pressure before.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Yeah, I wish there was like more education about some of this stuff.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Thank you. Yes. Thank you for the opportunity to chat and to get to know you and to share some of these messages with more people. Thank you, Megan.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
It really is. And yeah, there's a metaphor I like to use that like when you're in your 20s and you meet someone, you're both like these two unformed things that come together. So it's sort of like a startup, like you and your partner come together and you're like, we're going to build a life together and you're still very much becoming who you're going to become.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And then when you're older, you're really a complete being. And so is the other person. And so unlike a startup, it's like two companies coming together for a merger. And these mergers, as you know, are notoriously hard because it's like, who's going to be the CEO? Who's going to be the head of HR? And so for these older folks, some of them have lived alone for 20 years.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And the idea of combining closets, combining fridges, what time do we set the alarm in the morning? That's really hard for them.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Well, that was one of the things I was thinking about as I was preparing for this is like you have such a full life. Like I feel like you're in this amazing business woman. You're a great mom. You have great friends and family. Like, do you need someone in your life for this romantic role? Like, is that something that you're looking for?
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Yeah, I have like three dating tendencies, different types of daters. It's a framework that I came up with. And yes, you took it and I have your results.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Your hair looks good. Did you chop it off?
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
That's super interesting. Like what comes to mind for me is like you need like a third space. Yes. Between like the external world, your home. I don't know what that would be, but maybe it's like a friend's house who's out of town a lot and you do dates at their house or something like that.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And if you're with someone for 50 years, the day that you meet is 0.0055% of your total time together. Right. So who cares how you met? You can meet in an unromantic way and have a very romantic relationship.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Well, it's interesting. I think in some ways, your dating life might must be so different from most people's. But in other ways, it's like, you're a mom with young kids and you're dealing with the same thing as other young moms, which is this feeling of, well, if I'm gonna spend a night away from my kids, it better be worth it.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And then it sets the bar really high versus I imagine if you were dating in your 20s, you'd be like, oh, well, we'll see how this is.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And probably even on the first date, you're like, how would they be around my children? Are they ready to be around my children? Is this somebody I want to be around my children? It just does change the game.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
When you think about your life, in a year or two, if you found someone, what role are they playing in your life? Because as we said, your life is really full and many of your needs are met by your OSOs, your other significant others.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Yeah, no, it totally makes sense. And sort of like for you maybe making the distinction between like there's an empty spot in my bed that I eventually want to fill, but that doesn't mean I'm taking anything away from my ex in terms of the kid's father.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Yeah, that's why I'm like, it's not about replacing. It's like adding an additional person to your life. But it does feel like you kind of have to decide that you want to date. And I don't know if you're there yet.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Do you ever think about like if you weren't famous, if you weren't who you were, like what your life would be like?
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And like what is that image in your head?
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
I mean, it's just so interesting because I feel like you get to have a lot of opportunities because of who you are. But then I imagine it does make dating just distinctly harder.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
How do they do this stuff? I think most people are having a hard time. Like I feel like if you took the temperature on dating right now, there's a dating crisis. And why do you think that is? I feel like there's too many options and people are treating each other like they're disposable. Like, oh, I went on a date with this girl. I didn't text her back. She got mad.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Oh, I'll just match with someone else. Like I just don't think that we're really valuing each other. And I'm also just hearing like a lot of people that are so focused on career that that I think it's great to be focused on career. I'm focused on career, you're focused on career, but it's like you also need to make time for relationships if that's something that you're looking for.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And so, yeah, you mentioned the thing around like, you didn't say exactly like this, but it's like you'll probably make more money than the person that you date, but then you still want that traditional relationship. I think a lot of people are struggling with that right now because the majority of college graduates are women. Many women are making more money
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
than the men that they're dating and I think that we haven't totally caught up to that and so it's like it can feel very emasculating for the man and for the woman they're like I want them to take me out but I make more than them right and I don't think people have figured out how to navigate that.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
That's what I've heard. My friend is like a personal finance guy, Ramit Sethi, and he was saying how like this couple that he was coaching, the woman would give.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
guy she was dating her credit card before the date because she wanted to have that experience of him putting the credit card out even though it was hers and like part of me is like that's so silly you're playing pretend and the other part is like no you're getting what you want but you're still covering it I think a mistake that people make in modern dating is trying to find their personality twin and then oftentimes like if your life of the party you don't need another life of the party person like two of you in the room and
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
Same room is too much. And I think people really need to think about finding your complement.
Khloé in Wonder Land
The Science of Swiping Right ft. Dating Expert Logan Ury
And so I wonder for you like what that looks like.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
This is a critical conversation around truly the future of humanity.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
I haven't done that research, but I am imagining that there's moms out there that are raising boys on their own. And they might be like, yes, it is hard, but what do I do?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And so for that boy who isn't taught by a lot of guys in school and isn't in the Boy Scouts, which doesn't exist anymore, or doesn't have big brothers, big sisters, like what does that mom do?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Online.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
I love that because I think the winner-takes-all applies to a lot of different things. So I bet the top 10% of Americans now are healthier than they've ever been, while the rest of the country has never been healthier.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Yeah. Or in marriages, the top marriages today are the best marriages of all time, yet we have... declining marriage rates. So we're nearing the lowest rate of marriage that we've ever had in American history. So fewer people are getting married. But if you're two college graduates who get married in your 30s, you might have an even stronger bond than people in the past.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
But that is a small group at the top.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And this has huge impact on our society because we know that married people are healthier, they're wealthier, they live longer. When couples are married, they actually have lower rates of child poverty. And so this has huge implications for our society if we're having fewer marriages, especially when you think about having fewer babies.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Oh, yeah.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Right.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
So that graph shows that boys age 16 to 24 are making 10% less in full-time employment than women. And so it is true that we're seeing a reverse income graph. But what we do need to talk about is even when women make more in their 20s, that changes around age 30. And they have kids. When they have kids, right? It's like this meteorite hits and there's this huge burden placed on women.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And I think that's a big part of the conversation that we'll talk about when we talk about dating is women still feel like they have to have, you know, do all the household chores and raise the kids, but suddenly they have to earn a full-time income too. And so, so many of the gender roles are changing. And so, yes, that graph is true.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
We have seen since 2020 that there's a shift, but I don't want to just say, oh, women are making more in perpetuity because as soon as there's kids involved, they pay the price.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Well, there's this idea of hypergamy. So traditionally, women seek partners who have more economic or social status than they do. And for most of human history, this worked because men had the resources. And so there was sort of this arrangement where women could often marry someone who is more educated or earned more. But over the last 50 years, that's really changed.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And so what I'm seeing in my work, working one-on-one with women... is that when they say that there aren't enough good guys to go around, that's actually true.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
So we now have this huge mating gap where we have these high performing, high earning women that have done the work and gone to therapy and work out and they're ready for their great partner, but they're not able to find enough guys who are available. And if this is a problem now with the women I work with in their 30s, we are going to be facing a much more severe crisis 10, 15 years from now.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
So currently 60% of college enrollment is women, but soon it's going to be for every two women that graduate, it'll be one man. So that means half of those women will not have a guy who graduated from college. And so this is a crisis because these women are saying, okay, if you cannot be the provider, then you need to be offering more. Right. Emotional intelligence is the new currency in dating.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
But these guys were raised not to be emotionally intelligent, not to give emotional support, but to be a provider. And so they've been chasing this lion. I'm going to hunt for this lion of being a provider. But suddenly they're told you need to hunt for a tiger, which is emotional intelligence. They don't have the skills to do that.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And so women have raised the bar in terms of what they need from men while men are continuously falling behind. 100%.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Yeah, OK, so there's a few things I'll respond to there. So one, going back to the income graph, I want to just call out that, yes, right now in a few urban markets, women are making more than men. So women in DC and New York under 30 are making more than men on average. But in most situations, men are still making more than women. But we're talking about a projection.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Going back to the dating research. So yes, it's exactly as you described. What we have right now is there's fewer and fewer men that are hypergamous mates for women. So if there's a much smaller pool of guys, then what you have is you have a bunch of women competing for the same men. And then a bunch of guys get ignored. But what I also see is that those top guys are having a hard time deciding.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
So I feel like in my coaching practice as a dating coach, I'm working with a lot of women who say, what do I do? I've changed my profile the way you said I should. I took your class, but I still feel like there's just not enough great guys. And then I work with these CEO men who are having such a hard time choosing. And so I think we really have this exacerbated problem where –
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
So many women are competing for the same men and then a bunch of guys are getting ignored. And then what ends up happening is where do those guys go? And they go online. That's what you see.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
They go to porn or they go to Reddit. I mean, I love Reddit, but they're really going to some of these red-pilled communities. And so what you're seeing now is just men really opting out of society. So when you go back to that stat, one in seven young men in the UK is NEAT. not an employment education or training. They have just opted out.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And as Scott says, there's nothing scarier than a single man, a young single man. And so we are just creating a lot of these angry young single men who are saying, well, this is rigged against me. And so that's why I am worried about the rise of people like Andrew Tate. And if we wonder where are the dads, where are the men?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Well, men are finding these father figures, but they're finding them online and they're not the father figures that I would choose for the majority of men. And so I'm really worried about this because I feel like women are saying, guys, you need to step up because I can provide and I don't need that from you. And guys are not prepared to rise to the occasion.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Yeah. So I would say, you know, I work at Hinge, but I do think that apps have perpetuated this issue around height because if you can set your height filter to something, then you might set it higher. And then it's as if you have the dating app is a club and you're literally having bouncers that prevent a bunch of guys from even getting into the club.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
So many women in the US set their height filters at six feet, but only 14% of men in the US are six feet or taller. So why what happens to the other 86% of men? And women are saying, where's my guy? It's like, well, he's not even showing up on your app.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And so a huge thing that I push women to do is to change their height filters and just say, there is nothing that proves that you're going to have a successful long-term relationship if the guy is higher. I'm married to a short king. I love it. I feel like I really found this gem. And I think that so many women are missing out on great potential partners because of things like height.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
I haven't specifically heard that. I mean, there is a lot of evidence around assortive mating. that people sort of have an internal sense of how attractive they are and that they end up with someone similar to that. But a sort of mating is different than hypergamy, which is really this idea, as Scott said, that women tend to date horizontally and up and men date horizontally and down.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
So if you have two-thirds of women who are college grads, And one-third of college grads who are men, and some of them are going to date women without college degrees. You truly do have this dating crisis where there's just not enough men to meet this hypergamous mating.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Yeah.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
I'm a behavioral scientist turned dating coach. So that means that I take all the lessons from the field of behavioral science, how we make decisions, and then I apply them to the field of relationship science, which is how love works. And so I'm really passionate about this topic because for a long time, I've found that wherever I go, people say... oh, I know all these great single women.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
It is true. We have given women so many tools to achieve, but now boys are being left behind.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Do you know any great single guys? And I just thought, oh, okay, maybe that's always been happening. But when I actually dug into the data, I saw that we are truly in a dating crisis right now. And there is a huge mating gap between the type of men that women are looking for and the type of men that are available.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
This is a critical conversation around truly the future of humanity because marriage rates are down. That means birth rates are down. And so this conversation is extremely important.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Thank you.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Thank you.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Right. So I work at Hinge for the last five years. And so I have access to tons of data there around how daters are dating now, how daters are dating differently, what sets successful daters apart. And then I also have conducted my own research for this conversation. So I sent out a survey to thousands of my newsletter subscribers, and people were very excited to talk about this.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Thank you. I think many people in their lives, maybe especially men, don't sit there and say, what's top of mind for me? So guys get the quiet time to do that. Then they go around in a circle and whoever has the most pressing issue, they get to take their time. And some men might say, you know, these are top of mind for me, but it's not a priority. I'll give the time to someone else.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And I've conducted a lot of new research that I'll be sharing for the first time on this topic.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And each month, they talk about what's going on for them. They hold each other accountable. So month three, they might say, hey, David, you've been talking about that for the last three months. Are you going to actually do anything about it? And I love that these men have a masculine space to actually go through what's going on for them.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Because maybe they have wives and girlfriends they can go to. Maybe they don't. But I think it's a different type of advice that you get from a council of trusted peers. And I really do think that men's groups could change a lot of these issues because I can sit here and say everybody should be in therapy. Guess what?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Therapy is really expensive and many insurance companies will not provide it or there's a huge waiting list. And so if we just sit around for all these guys to go to therapy, that's not going to happen. But men's groups are a way that men can lead each other. They can provide this tribe of peers. And I have just seen so many changes in this group.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
David told me his story where he had a lot of anger about his mom's debilitating illness. And he wasn't really experiencing it and it was coming out as anger at his mom, but he wasn't conscious of that. But by getting the anger out in a safe place with men, the only place where he felt like he could truly be angry, he was able to get over it and to actually treat his mom with a lot more empathy.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Or my husband has gone to the group and talked about... ego stuff at work or how hard the transition to becoming a parent has been. And I feel like the men in this group have grown so much over the 12 months that it's been happening that I just paid for my brother-in-law to be in a men's group.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And I want there to be tons of men's groups because I really feel like this isn't an issue that a therapist or a mom or I can really solve. I think men need to be solving this problem within themselves.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
I think people are afraid of men gathering because traditionally bad things have happened in that. Gangs. Right. I mean, gangs. I'm just thinking of many situations in which once there's a tiki torch, I want there to be some women there. So there's a reason why people have been fearful of this. Or it's like when the whole world was a men's group,
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
The men's club, you didn't need to have men's clubs. But I think in this moment, this is a really powerful, organic, grassroots way for men to change. So I imagine that you have group chats with men that are your peers that you go to for advice. And I feel like there's men out there that don't have that. And we are meant to make decisions by getting advice from other people.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
I personally have a board of directors that in my life when I'm going to make a big decision, I meet with them. So when I took my last job, when I decided to move, all these different things, I meet with my board of directors and I say, what am I not seeing? What are my blind spots? And they've given me a lot of good and hard advice.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And I think we all need to be building our own board of directors. And for men, that might be this men's group.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Well, it's so funny that you said that because my husband's really funny and so are some of the other guys in the group. And they actually had to talk about how they needed to be less funny because the humor was becoming a distraction. And somebody brought up, you know, in their own male way, like, I think that sometimes we're about to go deep and then someone makes a joke.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And even though that joke was really good, we don't go back to where we were and we don't go as deep. So they actually work on being less funny in that group. But look at the work that you do. You sit for hours a week and you learn and you ask people questions and you're working on yourself. I'm not surprised that you have a group of peers that you can go to for that.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
But I would wager that the average man doesn't have that. And I feel like there are going to be so many women who are listening and watching this, and they're like, I want that for my husband.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
So what I've heard… And I think evolutionary biology, you always have to take certain things with a grain of salt because people can kind of explain away anything with it. But it's that a lot of times men were sitting next to each other and they were having these conversations on the savanna. And that's often why like guys prefer to do activities side by side and not facing each other.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And so you had men who were in conversation with their peers or, you know. And outside. And outside. Yeah.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Right. Or it's like, you know, why it's so good to have conversations in the car. I feel like you had a lot of men that were in groups at church. You had men who were in the Elks Club. You had veterans that were meeting. We actually feel like this is a time where much fewer men are getting together. And this is all of the amazing research that's happening now around loneliness.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
is that the average young guy is spending many fewer hours a week with their peers face-to-face. So even though a guy might be catching up with his friend playing video games, I just don't think that that's the same thing. And so I feel like we need this in-person time with our friends to develop these relationships.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And instead, we have people on TikTok, people on Twitch, watching other people live their lives.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
You know, it's interesting because part of me, where my head goes is like, are you asking women to do the emotional labor of raising men? And when you phrase it like that, it sounds really negative. But from anecdotal experience from my own life, you know, I've been with my husband for 10 years. I think we both really shaped each other.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
But like even yesterday, he texted me and he's like, I'm going to get an Uber instead of renting a car at the airport. You've taught me how to be such a savvy traveler. Like that's a small example, but it's like you really do influence each other.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And I think sometimes about my single friends and how they go to bed at night and they don't have a person next to them to give them advice and to listen to them talk about their day. And I think that when we're in long-term relationships, there's an element of raising each other and building memories together and making each other better and having that investment.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Right. And that's why I just – all these women that come to me and all these men that are looking for love, that want relationships, and something is happening right now where the gap just seems to be widening and these relationships aren't happening. And this is even true in teenage relationships.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
So it used to be that for baby boomers and Gen X, three-quarters of men had had a relationship in their teen years. And now it's – under 50%. And so if you start building your relational skills at an early age, then you get better and better at dating over time. But as you said, by the time you're 30, you haven't been in a relationship. That's seen as a red flag to a lot of people.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And so I think we have a problem now, but I'm really projecting that we're going to have a much greater problem in the future.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Have you seen these no-fap communities?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Have you seen this? Yes. Okay, so I was listening to this episode of Modern William with Chris Williamson, and he was interviewing Hamza, who was self-identifying as a former red-pilled person. And he was talking about how much it changed his life to try to enter the no-fap community.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
no masturbation. And so I do think that porn is a huge problem. My first job out of college was running the porn pod for Google. So what this meant was that we would sell ads for the porn advertisers. This team does not exist anymore. This was a long time ago. My parents were like, I sent you to Harvard and now you're selling ads for pornography.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
But when I look back, I'm like, what was I perpetuating? Because I feel like there's just so many problems with what technology is doing in terms of replacing human connection. So let's just project out. Chat TPT is already amazing. I'm currently in my Google feed getting ads for Replica. And the ads say, get your perfect AI boyfriend. Always there for you. Yeah.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
So you think about the fact that real life relationships are messy. I tell my husband on a weekly basis, please throw your contact lens in the garbage. And every week we have a disagreement about that. Well, guess what? Your online girlfriend, she doesn't nag you. She doesn't tell you to pick up your socks.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
She only tells you how great you are and always tells you, you know, that you're doing the right thing and how was your day. Then you insert sex robots. Okay, so you have your emotional needs met. You have your sexual needs met. Maybe you're watching porn while – engaging with your sex robots? Why would you want to go through the very challenging potential rejection of real-life relationships?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And I feel like if all these things come to pass, which it seems very likely that they will, we are truly in a crisis moment when it comes to birth rate and future generations.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
This is something I'm worried about for Gen Z in general. So I did a ton of research with post-pandemic Gen Z daters, men and women in the UK and the United States. And such a big theme that came out of it was that they don't have rejection resilience. And I think that we hear this in many aspects of life. So someone that I'm close to, he's the former Dean of Brown. He's a professor there.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And he was talking about how... It used to be that his office hours were empty and that's when he could do his reading or play solitaire. But now students come basically saying, tell me exactly what's going to be on the test. Tell me exactly what to write in my paper because they are not willing to fail.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
I have friends who are managers at Google and they give somebody feedback in a Google Doc and the person is crying because they take that as extreme rejection. And so if you don't have the resilience built up to fail, then you are not going to take risks. And everything in life worth having is worth taking a risk for. And so I feel that I have my dream job.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Nobody messaged me on LinkedIn and said, hey, Logan, do you want to study dating and relationships? No, I invented this job and now I get to have it. And same thing is true with relationships. It's not about waiting for the perfect person to show up. It's about becoming a great person who somebody else chooses and going after what you want.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Because traditionally women seek partners who have more economic or social status than they do. And emotional intelligence is the new currency in dating. But these guys were raised not to be emotionally intelligent, but to be a provider.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
I'll give this one to Scott.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
You look at screen time.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
like you shouldn't so like as a guy it's quite complicated to know how and where you can roll up without being filmed and going viral i know so we talked about the first dating paradox which is the idea that women now need more from men and are raising the bar because they can be providers on their own but men weren't taught how to do that and there's sometimes shame for it so i think the second big dating paradox is that men are expected to lead and to approach
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
But I truly feel like in a post-MeToo era, it's much more confusing. And so many people say to me, I don't want to meet on an app that's not romantic. I want to meet in real life. But I'm not finding that people are meeting in real life because people are afraid to approach each other. I think one is being afraid of being called creepy.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Another one that Richard Reeves talks about is that there's not enough men in the education system. So I believe when Tim Waltz was a teacher, one out of three teachers in his school was a man. But now it's like 24%. And so where do kids spend most of their time? In school. And who's teaching them? Mostly not men.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
But the other one, which is what you're talking about, is that this culture of making TikToks or going online with this date-ertainment to talk about how this person approached you or how inappropriate that was. And so I feel like there's a lot of women waiting for men to approach them, but then shaming the men who do.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
I think one of the solutions there is we should allow people to shoot their shot in a non-creepy way.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
I think that that is true. If you are super hot, it's less likely to be perceived as creepy. But you have all these people that are saying, I want to be approached, and they're not being approached. And so there was this rise of run clubs last summer, right? Everyone said, the new dating app is a run club. I ask everywhere I go, have you met someone at a run club?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
No, people are not really meeting there. So Since 2017, the number one way that people are meeting is online and just setting up a date every two seconds. This is where the dating is happening. If people want more things to happen offline, they actually have to approach each other. And I'm just not seeing that happen.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Absolutely.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Everything you're saying is what I'm seeing. So I was talking to this incredible 16-year-old girl who built this AI chatbot called Ask Elle, and she's taken all the relationship science research that she's seen, and she's trained this chatbot, and she's trying to help teens get safe and empowered dating advice. And I asked her, what is the number one question that you're getting?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And it's how to ask someone out. And so I think people are really struggling. It's not that teens in all of human history had the secret. It's that they were willing to do it and fail. And now we're just not seeing that. And so I think that we have glossed over the pandemic. It was this really traumatic time, really scary stuff happened, and we don't want to talk about it.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
But people that came of age during the pandemic, their social skills are worse. They missed out on critical moments of becoming a human. And we are seeing that in the workplace. All of these things about Gen Z, Gen Alpha, that came from something. It came from parenting. It came from digital addiction. It came from the pandemic and online learning.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And I think that if you do not have the social skills to approach someone and ask them out, there just will be literally fewer couples.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
I think some of the increase in being sober, sober curious, comes from interest in being healthy. So we hear from Gen Z, I don't want to have anxiety the next day. They are much less likely.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Yeah. They are much less likely to millennials to feel like there's a two drink minimum for dates. But in general, we're seeing less risk-taking behavior from Gen Z. They are getting their licenses far later, if at all. They are losing their virginity much later, if at all. And so I feel like there's this rise of – there's this decrease in risk-taking behavior, which in some ways is great.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
You know, fewer kids dying in car crashes and people being responsible.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
But I just feel like people are having – people are missing out on the experience to make mistakes as a young person. And I think when I think back to my college experience, if there had been cameras that have high quality video on them at all times, I would have lived a very different college experience. I am so grateful. that Instagram was not there when I was in college.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And so if you live in a surveillance culture where at any moment somebody is snapping the room and they could see what you're doing, you're going to take fewer risks. And I just feel like there's this entire culture of people being very safe. And part of dating, part of mating is making mistakes, taking risks and failing.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
I imagine from the stats. First of all, I love what Scott said in terms of his advice. And I feel like it's one of those things where the secret to happiness or the secret to success is simple but hard. So it's not like there's infinite things you need to do. It's actually quite a simple plan, but it's quite hard to execute on it. A few things that I would add.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
So one is I have this friend, Sam Parr. He started The Hustle. He started the podcast, My First Million. One thing that he did to make himself more attractive as a mate was he would develop these passions and really talk about them on dates because he found that women were really drawn to the fact that he was pursuing other activities.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
So he got really into denim and he would talk about these denim meets that he would go to. And he found that women were really drawn to that. He's very into the growth mindset and working on himself. He felt like that was something that women were so drawn to, how he was growing. Because if you think about the projections, well, when he met my friend Sarah, he wasn't making any money.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
She was making a lot more than him. But she could see that he had a great path ahead of him because he was constantly working and improving himself. The other thing I would tell men is through my research, I found that men think, I need to be perfect. I need to be six feet tall. Look, Women are not expecting you to fly them to the moon. They want effort. Remember the name of their best friend.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Text them when they had a hard meeting and say, how did it go? Plan a thoughtful date. And so I think that you have men over here saying, if I'm not six feet tall, I don't have a chance. So why participate anyway? And then you have women saying, in some ways, I just want you to be an effortful, nice person, and I'm not even getting that.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And so I think that for men, they can actually get much farther than they think and be better than 90% of men by doing some of these bare minimum things that other men aren't doing. So I have this question that I ask in my book, which is when you're deciding if you should break up with someone, if your partner were a piece of clothing in your closet, what would they be?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Yes. And mine for my husband would be this awesome orange robe that I have that represents being at home. I love the orange color that's really bright, and it represents our family time. So I've asked this question to – I feel shamed.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Yours was great.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
No, no, no. I think your answer.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
No, no, no. I think your answer is wonderful. And I actually, in general, find that outerwear answers are very strong because it means that you feel warm around them. It's you at your best. This is your favorite.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
That's all that matters. Your answer was great. The answers that worry me are something like a wool sweater that feels good, but then it's itchy, so I take it off. The ratty shirt that I wear to the gym. These are real answers I've gotten. Point is, for years I've been asking people this question.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Well, now I want to ask people the question of, if you were a piece of clothing in your closet, what would you be? And I feel like we spend so much time saying, I'm looking for this in a partner. This is the checklist. Well, look in the mirror. Do you have those traits? And so for somebody who says, I'm a ratty,
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
sweatshirt and it's not the thing that I would choose to wear, well, then work on yourself. And so I feel like there's a lot of feelings of I'm going to relation shop. I'm going to look for a partner the way I look for Bluetooth headphones. Well, a lot of that is about breaking people down into these parts.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And I feel like we should spend less time thinking about the checklist for a partner and more time thinking about who am I and am I somebody who would be chosen.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
So I work with a lot of very successful women. And that's also because I'm expensive to work with. And that's who my clients are. But I have a newsletter where I hear from 85,000 people. And so what I'm hearing is that a lot of women are saying men are intimidated by men. the amount of money that I make.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
They say that they're not going to be, but the more successful I become, the more threatened they are. I'm just talking to tons of women, personal friends. I feel like
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
At my house, on one side of me and then two sides over are women who are having babies, they call it like single mother by choice, where they literally were just like, I can't find a man and I want to become a mom, so I'm going to do it by myself. And so I feel like there are just all these great women who are saying, Logan, I'm following your advice. I'm putting myself out there.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
I do all these things, but they're just not finding partners.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
I don't think that there's an exact correlation because it really depends who the guy is. There are guys out there who are like, let's be a power couple. But I feel like there are women who just feel like there is not enough good guys for them. And I'm curious what you think about this, but I live in the Bay Area. I'm seeing so much polyamory. And I think polyamory is interesting.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
I'm pro-polyamory. I like the fact that people are thinking about relationship structures in a new way. 50% of marriages end in divorce. Obviously our one size fits all approach to marriage isn't working. But I'm also wondering, Well, let me tell you the story. I went to this dating event and the dating event had five single women who were great and their friends were hyping them up.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And then there was two guys and they were both polyamorous. And so I wonder if you're a guy who feels like there's not that many good guys, why should I have to choose? I feel like that's a trend that I'm worried about.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And I work with these guys. And you might think that they're the happiest people in the world. They are having sex. They are getting a lot of attention. But they're suffering from decision paralysis. And these are some of the guys that hit 40, 42. And they haven't gotten married. They don't have kids. And they sort of are like, why would I ever settle down if I don't have to?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Or I'm going to wait as long as possible. But they don't understand the opportunity cost, which is building a life with someone, having kids. Every year that you wait to have kids is a year that your kids will be alive without you.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And so I really feel like these people in the top percentage, yes, they're having a much easier time, but they also have problems because they're having decision paralysis and they're not settling down.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And it is.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
It is.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
I do think that there's a point where it starts to go down, and I've seen that with my coaching clients. And part of that is just how the dating apps work, that if you are an attractive woman and you set your age maximum at 40, I do see that those men see diminishing returns after that age.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Then that is seen as a clear red flag.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Right, and just to add a few more stats to that. So we know that 70% of valedictorians in the US are female and women are much more likely to be in the top 10% of their class. But then on the SAT, men and women or young men and women earn the same scores. So there's definitely something happening in schools that is prioritizing the female experience or that women are better at that.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
We definitely want to celebrate the success of women. I think the changes that have happened over the last 50 years are incredible. And I feel like I'm a beneficiary of that and so is my daughter. If you look at all of the books that my daughter was given when she was born, they're about great women in history. You can be anything. Dream big, little one.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And so I feel like we have given women so many tools to achieve. And in many ways, those have been manifested. But now boys are being left behind. And so this isn't a zero-sum game. I was nervous about coming on here because I thought people would say, she's a male apologist. She doesn't see how much women are still struggling. I think everyone is struggling. I think life is hard.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Thank you.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
But what's happening right now is we need to have empathy for young men and we need to bring them up because this isn't just a problem about young men. And patriarchy doesn't just hurt women. A lot of people think about the patriarchy as something that prizes men and hurts women. But when there's a very narrow definition of men, everyone is hurt by that.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Even though this is something you spend hours a week doing for your job. Yeah, 100%.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
But you've worked on it.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
I love that.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And so we are just creating a lot of these angry young single men who are saying, well, this is rigged against me.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And that's all the research that I've done is over and over seeing women feel like they are not enough good men to date and men feel like they're being held to a ridiculous standard of holding both sides of the coin being feminine and masculine.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
I love everything you said. And then one thing that was going through my head as you said it was it feels really sad that in this moment in time we have to tell people to become procreators. Don't you feel like there's something sick in our society if that has to be taught? Evolutionarily, all of our software is towards procreation. Like that is how we are wired.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Yet people are so sick from the food that they eat, from all the medications that people are on, from all the pornography, from all the technology that you literally have to teach your sons the importance of procreation. And that's why I'm here and that's why I'm really freaked out by all of this stuff because we are at a point in society where in South Korea of 100 people of childbearing age are
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
they are going to produce 12 grandchildren based on a 0.7 birth rate. And the fact that you talk about the P of procreation, like I'm so worried about our society.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
So when I was on the plane on the way here, I told this woman who was sitting next to me what I was going to be talking about. And her gut reaction was, oh, why do we have to worry about that? Women are doing better than men. Like, great, let us do that for the first time in history. Like, her gut reaction was, why is this a problem?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Then I started telling her these stats around lowest marriage rate, nearly – we're approaching the lowest marriage rate in U.S. history. The birth rate has gone down 20% in 20 years. And she didn't know these numbers. And I feel like people are afraid to talk about this topic because they think it's a zero-sum game where when men lose, women win and vice versa. But right now we're all losing.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Yeah, South Korea is replacing its nursery schools with its nursing homes. Like, they are the anti-example for us, and I think people need to be paying attention.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
I'll let Scott go first.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Oh, yeah. I do have some questions for Scott, but I would love for you to answer them too. So one of them is what is something about being a man that you learned growing up that you have had to unlearn? And I'm wondering specifically in how you're raising your sons to avoid some of those things.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
That's why when Scott said that you don't necessarily buy the research that women are looking for someone who's emotionally intelligent, fine. Then don't do it for your partner. Do it for yourself.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
I just saw the stand-up special by Kumail Nanjiani. I'm sure it'll like come out on streaming soon. But the last 20 minutes was pretty incredible. It basically turned from like sort of silly stand-up into kind of like his TED Talk.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
So he told this amazing story about how one day he was speaking to the press and he said, I started to go to therapy when there were a bunch of bad reviews about my movie because I realized so much of my identity was tied up in external factors. And this turned into headlines around the world that said bad reviews land Kumail Nanjiani in therapy. And he was really frustrated by this.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
So in the stand-up special, he took the five most popular things that people said criticizing him and he broke down each one. So, for example, one of them was, oh, boo-hoo, poor, you know, super rich movie star feels sad about bad reviews. We should all feel sad for him. And he's like, no, no. You don't have to feel sad for me, but I can feel sad for me. And he went through all these things.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And he talked about his therapy journey and how before therapy he thought, I just don't experience negative emotions. I don't experience sadness. And through therapy he understood, oh, I experience sadness all the time, but I don't allow myself to feel it. So it just comes out as anger. So he told a story about talking to his dad on the phone. His dad had just been in a car accident, but was fine.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And then he helped his dad through that experience. And then a few hours later, he's like, where the fuck is my Ninja Turtle t-shirt? And it's like, he needed therapy to explain to him. He's not upset about the t-shirt. He's upset about his dad. But I think that the fact that he, you know, in his 40s or however old he is, had to learn that, it makes me feel like Everyone needs to learn that.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
If it's not for a romantic partner, then it's for yourself. Because a life sucks if you can't cry, you can't express emotions, you don't have people to talk to. And so forget about attracting a mate, just not killing yourself, just being a happier person. I think we just need more room for men to express emotions.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Where do we send these guys?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Yeah.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
I mean, I think we should put together this list of resources. And I feel like there are good guys out there. I put Chris Williamson in this group. I put both of you out there. Podcasts are how a lot of modern wisdom is being expressed right now, right? You don't go to church. You get your sermon through your AirPods. So, like, who are the guys that are saying healthy things?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And I feel like if we can fill their ears with the healthy messages of masculinity, we are taking away the space and the attention from the people that are really – are profiting from these negative messages. I think you need a place to send the people who email you.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
But even what you both said to my answer or to my question around like what's the boot camp or what would you tell guys, like that's not a crazy list. I think it's like for a lot of these guys to have you as sort of a male role model of like – go to the gym, make money, be kind, look out for others. I just feel like that can be condensed into, and maybe that's what your new book is.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
But truly, I think people are looking for a script with the lack of religion, lack of institution. We've lost all these scripts that tell people what to do. Let's write a new script.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
I mean, somebody is going to watch this and pull it together into all of your advice. But I'm just saying.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
It needs to get out there because if you don't fill the space, somebody else will and they already are. And it's not the messages that you want to have the next population, the next generation having.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
One, two, three.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
No, I'm just really glad that we're having this conversation. I feel like maybe I wouldn't have had this conversation a year ago. I do think the tide is turning. I think the title of the report as Lost Boys is very helpful. And I just want to end with the message that women don't have to do worse when men do better and vice versa. And let's raise up
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
everyone so that we're all thriving and yeah, let's help these lost boys and also help women.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Yeah. Oh, Stephen, I wanted to add one more thing. I think an underappreciated resource for men for building empathy is reading fiction books. So I'm in a book club. I read fiction all the time. Fiction builds a lot of empathy because you are truly inside the mind of somebody else for 200 or 300 pages. When I talk to guys, they so rarely read fiction. Do you read any fiction?
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
A lot of guys that I talk to, they say, oh, I read nonfiction. And there's so many lists online of like the hundred nonfiction books to get your MBA. And it's like we're all reading so much nonfiction on our phone at all times. Read a book of fiction. Get inside the head of somebody else. Get inside the head of a woman.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
I think that for zero dollars at the local library, you can actually become a better person.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Yeah. But can I convince, what if you're single and I'm going to say, read this fiction and you're going to get laid? Like, why can't we just reframe and change the narrative on fiction? Yeah. I mean, I just feel like there's so many examples of times that I haven't really known what's going on with the group. And then I read a book about that group.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And I'm not an expert in them, but I can think about them more. And I just feel like, look, if you are not having success with women and you don't have any women in your life, read a fucking book by a woman.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
TikTok is not going to give you the empathy that spending 300 pages inside the mind of a person different from yourself will.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Well, it's really about understanding the blind spots that hold people back from finding love and then making a plan to overcome them.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
I'm most scared of losing my husband. Because he has had a brush with death, he had very serious bone cancer. I feel like we've just been through such hard stuff with him medically that right now I'm here today with you. He's climbing. I was just thinking, you know, what happens if something happens to him with climbing? And we have a one-year-old daughter.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
And so maybe the most obvious answer is something to happen to my daughter. But for me, it's really something to happen to my husband.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
So the research in the UK shows that 70% of girls are ready to start school at age five, but many fewer boys are capable of starting at that age in terms of readiness. And so if you were to hold boys back, then they might be on more equal playing field for those critical moments of four to five, of 13 to 14, where the brains really develop at a different stage.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
There's a lot of other graphs that look like that in terms of women and young girls are just actually a lot more resilient in childhood. So if you are in foster care as a young woman, you have less negative outcomes than young men. And so there's this theory in parenting of is your child an orchid or a dandelion? And so the orchid really needs very particular situations to grow.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
They need a certain amount of light. They need to be watered in a particular way. And they'll thrive in some situations and they will not thrive in others. Whereas a dandelion can really survive in many situations. And so women, young girls tend to be more dandelions in childhood. And so that's why when you have a boy and a girl both in negative situations, the boy is more negatively impacted.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Masculinity Debate: Are Dating Apps Creating A Generation Of Incels?! Lonely Men Are More Dangerous Than Ever!
Do you think there's somehow more of a stigma there? Like, I wonder why that's so dramatic.