Josh Bearman
Appearances
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Yeah, I think it's also maybe a little kind of tragic that she's face down in the water, he's face up. He gets a little bit of a sort of like beatific moment there, but should they have been together? Would it be like too obvious and super weird? Yeah. Or just kind of like... Human version of, like, those sea otters that float together, like, holding hands at the Monterey Bay Aquarium.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Except, like, bleeding out.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
I wonder now. So let's say that they are together in the next life, as she says, but she was in the final moments of this life confused and annoyed. Like, what's Rick doing? So is it going to be, like, in the next life, they'll be like... In Beetlejuice, she'll be like, what were you thinking? She'll be haranguing him when they're in the waiting room to get to go be turtles or whatever. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
She's going to be like, come on, dude, we were just, why did we even come back to the hotel?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
We shouldn't have even been at breakfast.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Well, she's happy. She's like, yeah, I got my guy. He's making his way up the ranks. He's got his shades on. But you see that he has succeeded, but now has to live with himself as a person he didn't want to be for the rest of his life. So he did not get a happy ending. He's actually... He's created a new kind of prison of identity for himself.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
I would definitely say that in general, yeah, the season is positing a philosophical statement about the gap between, like identity is a projection, right, of what you think you're supposed to be, but who are you actually, right? What are your values and what are you, like you are your deeds, right, and your values, basically.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
All the things that people think you are or you think you are, like I'm a successful lawyer or I'm this or I'm a mother or I'm a, I'm an Asian woman who wants to get railed by these – by like a series of men from the internet. Like that's actually what's so profound about Frank's insane monologue is because he has closed the gap on his – like himself and like ideas about projected identity.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
And there's like he's – As you just pointed out, like he is completely at peace and at home with that. And he has no internal friction about who he is. And he knows exactly. And he's unafraid even to say it, right? There's no fear of who he is. And whereas everybody else like has some fear, right? And so then it's a question of to what degree do people overcome the fears about their identity?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
To what degree do they even like heave that identity overboard and kind of start anew like Saxon?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Yeah. The idea of like your identity is not any of the things that you think it is. When all of our characters enter the White Lotus for the week, right, they would list all the things that actually are not who you are.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Yeah. Yeah. And now we get to talk to Amy Lou Wood. Welcome, Amy Lou Wood, to the bonus episode of the White Lotus official podcast.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Hello. Nice to see you.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Well, I mean, in a way it is.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
So we're hearing this after the finale is aired. Do you know what happens? Can I spoil it for you?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Who for a season four should shoot like multiple endings like the Clue movie.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
I don't know what that means.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
That would be characteristically diabolical for Mike.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Well, at what point did you find out? So obviously, this is you're talking about the final, you know, shooting day. I don't know if you shot this on the last day, but when did you find out that you were going to be one of the bodies?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
It's always magic hour.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
The spycraft involved.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
I can live my life if Chelsea lives. She must go on.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Well, to that point, I mean, there's that kind of nice little kind of small soliloquy. And Chelsea says like, well, I'm hope and he's darkness and one of us will win. It's a battle. But then darkness won. And I was sad about that. That made me genuinely sad.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Ooh, so that's my... Okay, so that was one of my questions, because I was wondering, like, oh, well, wait, did I have it, like, misunderstood? Was Rick a lost cause and she should have left, right? That was one of my questions, and I wonder if you contemplated that.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Yeah. Well, I was thinking about your response to kind of the Buddhist treatise about season one. You're like, well, all stories are in some way about needs. But I think what's actually different in this case, the point is, in fact, that all those needs are irrelevant. Right. So that. Because the whole idea is like laying down this kind of Buddhist foundation for the story.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
To that point, I think also it's interesting because... The moment with Saxon, I had sort of thought like, well, she could see that there is a possibility here, but then is afraid of it because of just loyalty to Rick. But your sort of emotional explanation is interesting that she was not even sure that she would know how to sort of enter into what Saxon is ready for.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
And that's this kind of strange irony that Saxon is suddenly now they're ready to receive her message and Rick isn't. And so they could have had, like in some way, her light and energy might have found more fertile ground with Saxon.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
It's like everything else that everybody is saying is basically irrelevant, and only what's relevant is how you look past all those needs and sort of discover something. Because in a traditional storytelling, you'd have the need set something into motion, and then the plot gets resolved. And then as we see now in season three, the resolution of season three entails this –
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
kind of overture with the monk saying, the attempt for resolution is also causing you suffering. So what if there is no resolution, right? And what if the story doesn't need to be resolved and you don't need to have anxiety seeking resolution all the time?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
And season two, it does feel like pretty distinct because it is this bedroom farce where it's about how to actually manage your needs in daily life with the transformation of the sexual politics of the foursome And there's sort of like a trade of insight and wisdom in that process. And so in that case, those characters are learning how to manage their selves and their identity in their daily life.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Whereas season one and three were about sort of escaping the needs of your daily life.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Although Laughlin basically develops a belief system along the way that – I mean he's the one that almost intuits the message when he says to Saxon, what if life is just a test to see if you can become a better person?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Yeah. It's interesting also because then, I mean, I would say we don't know where Saxon's belief system is going to wind up, but he's now sort of primed to have a belief system. And, of course, he is who Lachlan is reacting against when he's trying to impress on him his idea of alpha male manhood and dominance, all of which we now suspect that's actually not his true identity. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
I want Saxon to come back because I want to see what that actual—where his belief system takes him.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
But, yeah, Chelsea— strong belief system that permeates the whole show, I would say.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
And I'm Josh Bearman.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Frank is like – he's achieved some kind of like supersedatory state of like I exist at all identities simultaneously. I'm a kaleidoscopic identity. I'm all these different ones in my weird role play and in life. And so he's completely – he snaps back to being at peace instantaneously, which, I mean, we're kind of joking.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
But also because that was such a bombshell and almost probably the weirdest thing that anybody will see on TV – Yeah, 100%. This year, but also quite profound, right? Surprisingly profound, too. And then where he winds up, even though he's a side character, I think is quite meaningful.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
I like how we decided that Frank is the most enlightened being in the entire season.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
It's like, like perhaps... She comes back down to earth. She floats back down gently.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
My big question actually is like, are these seasons each about something different or are they all about sort of some version of the same thing?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
I feel like the other, this is more subtle, but the other character who escapes the prison, as it were, is Laurie. And then by extension, she offers some of that to Kate and Jacqueline by virtue of her little speech that resets their whole relationship, right? At the beginning, we realize that she's the unhappy one. They're on the victory tour, but she's unhappy.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
And then at the end, though, she has some kind of... We don't actually even see it. It's funny. It's interesting because it's like... Her big epiphany comes from having gone to the fights out of frustration, fooling around with Alexi, climbing out the window, running sort of walk of shame, you know, with her ass hanging out.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
And then she just wakes up the next morning with a whole new thought, which is like, in fact— None of this matters. None of what we're saying matters. All of our frustrations don't matter. Whatever my failures are, all my beliefs, nothing did anything for me other than time. The things that happen that unfold in our lives together make us who we are. There's no sort of overarching thing.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
We started off early on talking about my whole kind of like my special private thesis about season one, which is that it wasn't about wealth or money or privilege, that it was actually this story that essentially explored Buddhist ideas of suffering and happiness. And then, of course, now... That's the explicit exploration here.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
It's its own sort of like Zen meditative thing. kind of mode of thinking. And then she just kind of lays that on everybody and it's like a magic, it's like a spell, right? It's like she makes an incantation and their whole, their lives together are completely changed, yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
It's an internal happiness. I mean, it's like they don't, as you say, that's a nice way of putting it, like the mandatory happiness that's expected in general in life and sort of like comparatively in social circles and so on. When somebody really opens up to you suddenly and is like, I've been unhappy, there's a real chance that one of your friends will like recoil and never speak to you again.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Like it's hard, you know, people sometimes don't want to be around that. And so for them to be able to accept that, in fact, they might all have their different unhappinesses and they don't have to be on a victory tour and they can sit there together. Is very nice. And there's this additional kind of layer of what you're saying, maybe, in that what she says, what she attributes it to is time.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
And so for women in middle age, we're also part of their self-doubt is like the pending invisibility of older womanhood. And time is your foe, right, in that case. But then she's like, no, maybe time is actually... It's a gift that we've been given. And we have now time, you know, under our belt.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
And that's what allows us to be able to sit here with whatever our emotions are and have that happiness be internal. Youth is wasted on the young. It's the pithiest statement about all of the human condition.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Right. He's like, OK, I am now your pupil teacher and give me your lesson. He's like, maybe if it entails sex, great. But also I'll take the books.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And then Jason Statham has to come and get it back.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Yeah. Yeah. It seems like just from a pure negotiating position, he made an error. What do you mean? Setting it too low? Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
He's like, maybe I can get by basically scot-free here.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
How about 5 million? Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
But she's taking a moral position when she – Bolts from the party. She's saying no. So she's also saying, I'm going to resist this. It's not fair. Would you take the money?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
That's a good point. Yeah, exactly. Right. She's holding the cards.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Right. I wonder, is it like Cash App or Venmo? I know.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Someone snatches it. Identical briefcase. It's a mix up or is it?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Well, it's interesting because the whole episode is set up with the monk saying violence exists in all of us, right? And that's like sort of the overture of the episode is that VO over...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Walton Goggins and then it's kind of playing through and then it's reinforced at the fight which of course is this display of violence and then it was kind of really sad on that date right before they get to the fight when she's like oh I thought you were more ambitious when he's saying like basically I'm a pacifist and I don't want to hurt people and she's like oh are you a beta cuck that wants to watch while your mom fucks your dad or something like
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
I know. And the cabinet also is a little bit like a metaphor for, you know, depending on where the gun is, it's like, how's it going to get used, right? There's like some motivation for the gun to get used in all these different ways with each of the characters.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
He's thrown off by the fact that they somehow have not prepped their cover story at all. Yeah. And they get in there, and then she's like, what movies have you seen of mine? And what movies have I made? I don't know. Action movies. It's good scripted improv.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
It's funny, but I was thinking, these two guys are on this like... you know, deception operation to sneak in to one of the richest men in Thailand's house and maybe kill him. Yeah, this is like a Jason Bourne movie.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Yeah, an exit strategy. They should have had this whole thing prepped out. Like, what's even, what are we doing here?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
I do. Yeah, I like how, I mean, Frank... The minute he takes a sip of whiskey, he's, like, restored to his, like, charming self. He's got a sparkle in his eye and a wink and a smile.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Yeah. It's like Peter Pan meets MC Hammer and some Pippin. And meanwhile now, Rick and Jim have gone off into the study to kind of just chat about business, but which is cover for Rick trying to figure out, like, do I need to kill my lifelong sort of nemesis in my mind?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Well, it's all coming to the surface.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Seems you've had quite a life.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
What else? Then he's an urban cowboy.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Yeah, in a crop top mesh outfit. Yeah, it's giving Bushwick.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
With a cowboy hat. Yeah. And he's in Silence of the Lambs. He's in a million things. He's all over the place. He's in The Leftovers. And he's in Bad Monkey. He's the dad in Bad Monkey also. Now he's playing like the sinister figure, but he's also so kind of frail and meek. He's old. He's really old.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
It is a strange encounter because is there something – is some of the air being taken out of the balloon by virtue of the fact that the Bet Noir, the big kind of bad guy in Rick's mind, is actually so weak and frail? Yeah. And doesn't have any menace because obviously he backs off because he's like ultimately also not a killer. The episode's called Killer Instinct.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
It starts with this overture about violence. Rick realizes in the moment he's not a killer. He pulls out his gun. But that's – He can't even hit him. He can't even hit him. And that's because he's frail. But so I was wondering like if there was some menace and he knew – and in fact he encountered part of what he expected and still walked away, would that be sort of a more complex –
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And also the kind of visual leitmotif that starts at the beginning and is running through the whole thing is the fight. You see the slow motion sequence of like some kind of prayer ritual at the beginning of the fight. Violence does spiritual harm to victims.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Oh, my God. Right. He celebrates. Yeah. He turns the tables. That's a good point. It's like this guy had power over him and suddenly now he has the power and perhaps that's enough to just like completely dispel the illusion.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
I know. I know. Me too. It's a hard one. I know. It's going to be a tough fight back. And then they go off and party and he's immediately already got... Oh, my God.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Yeah. And then he's got a crack pipe.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Right. And he's like, let's go big. It's Bangkok. One night. And then eventually, of course, they take it to the hotel room and Rick is just sitting on the couch crying. kind of observing, he's not really engaging in the way, like, Frank is like, okay, this is my, I'm back in my old self. Yeah, exactly. And Walton, Rick, just is kind of sitting there with a smile on his face, right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
He's got this, like, slight beatific smile where, like, he's at peace.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
We're still pulling for them. We're going to make it. I know, they're both, they just need to be reunited.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Oh, yeah. Well, they're soulmates. They're soulmates. And she's going to follow him to the next life and heal him there if she has to.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
The battle of hope and pain.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Right. That's true. She has, like, now, like, their reunion is a potential pure one. Yeah. But I'm with you. I kind of wanted, like, her and Saxon. Because also that's, like, this separate, tiny, weird, little, essentially, rom-com, right? If you just isolate that story, it's like, he's the devilish cat and she's the plucky heroine and she wants nothing to do with him.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And then they realize that, like, they're enemies to lovers. And then, like, they have this moment where she could actually realize the full potential that she's not able to with Rick. And then perhaps by so doing, like, that elevates her power even more. Exactly. And then she, like, brings that back to Rick. That's exactly what I'm thinking.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
So it's transitioned from a lot of the rest of the season is the monkeys in the forest, which is either both monkey mind and also the threat of kind of they're bearing their fangs sometimes. But now here is like... Humans fighting and personal violence and then the voiceover, the monk about violence. And so then you kind of know that that's what this is going to be about.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Well, I mean, the women are all at sort of like midlife crisis age. And so it's like a classic setup. I mean, I feel like it is most beautifully demonstrated with an incredible flair when they wind up at the pool, which is full of the old people. And they're like, this is disgusting. This is the future. It's like the old lady in the bathtub in The Shining. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
So they recoil from that and go back into the self-preservation mode, which I hadn't really thought about this, that their encounter with that kind of like immutable future puts their guard back up, you know, with each other.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Right. I mean, in midlife crisis, right, it's a massive challenge and destabilizing and people kind of like sometimes don't recover, but it's also a chance for transformation. And you can sort of like reset your entire sense of yourself. And that's kind of the opportunity that's being put in front of many of the characters here. Right. And that's the bigger test.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
In this episode, there were like a lot of little tests. There's like these more moral ethical tests, but then there's like sort of a bigger test. Right. Where am I going?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Are you going to wear the mask or not? Yeah, exactly. Are you going to go to the grave with your mask on?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
All right. Well, welcome, John Grice, to the Season 3 companion podcast to White Lotus. Thank you. Thank you so much.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
This is where, yeah, it's most visible.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
But... Well, that kind of that aligns with how we have been kind of systematically second guessing Gary slash Greg, if indeed either of those are his names. Did he even work with the Bureau of Land Management? Was this all like an elaborate ruse to find a mark from the beginning? Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And Lori sort of says what she's finally thinking and then they all start trading kind of. their real beliefs about each other. So the masks have all come down now, right? So the mask that was being worn when they were in the first episode at dinner and talking about how they all had been one person and it's a mirror. They're mirrors of each other.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
It's a victory to our lives rock now. It's the mask is down and the real person is there. And those three real people actually have these long grievances with each other.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Thank you. Arch Arch Arch Arch Arch Arch
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Right. Whatever she says. Right. You're pretending your life is great and you're selfish and vain. Selfish and vain.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
There's a funny moment in the three-way finger pointing at the dinner where Laurie kind of throws Jacqueline under the bus by reminding or actually revealing the news to Kate that Jacqueline and her husband were flirting at her wedding.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And then Kate's just like, what? Did that happen?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
What are you talking about?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Oh, right. Yes. And you think you're the victim.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
She's saying it in a cruel way, but it's the kind of thing that the monk would also say. Right. Like, you chose the path. You took those steps. Why did you do that? What does that mean?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Right. She's like, if you made those choices, then accept them and try not to. Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Right. She's like, quit your yapping about it. The monk would be like, just try not to suffer if that's the choice you've made and accept it or whatever.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And then, of course, they're sitting there and Fabian, the hotel manager, has decided that this is his big night to shine. And he sits down and sings a ballad of his own devising about...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Yeah, exactly. Heimweh. Nostalgia for the homeland.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
That's right. That's a good point. Fabian so far is the actual hero of the story. Yeah. He's the one who's making a change.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
But it's interesting. So then, like, Laurie runs off to go to the fight. She's like, ah, fuck this. And then winds up in a tryst with Alexi. And then he's like, I take that up. Yeah, exactly. My mommy. And then, oh, no, it turns out to be transactional where, like, she's getting the authentic experience of, like, okay, fine, I'm going to run to the Muay Thai fight and go home with this rando.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And then he's like – You take cash out?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Venmo? PayPal? Cash out? Yeah, I just need only $10,000. She's like, oh, no, has to flee out the window.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
But maybe that is the authentic experience. She had the full authentic experience of, like, thinking you're having an authentic experience traveling, getting scammed.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Yeah, right, right. Yeah, exactly. Is that to be crazy? Yeah, right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Oh, yeah. But here's my thing.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Right. Who knows? Also, that jewelry doesn't seem that expensive. I know. I know.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
I know. That was a good hustle at the door. That was a good other woman hustle. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So then the party. There's a party over at Gary's. He's invited Belinda and her son Zion.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
I know. I know. She's like sort of a new Tanya. Yeah, where she is her kind of like drugged out kind of daffiness is the like purposeful but kind of accidental to the story comic relief.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Yeah. I know. She's like, I'm praying that Jesus can save her from the Buddhists. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
She's trying to help out this woman.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Yeah. But then also at the party there is Saxon, Chelsea, and Chloe. First, Saxon is talking to his dad and basically says, like, what's going on? Because if your life is falling apart, that means mine is because I have no identity. I've just patterned myself after you. I put all my eggs in your basket. Yes.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Saxon goes even further and he says, I have no identity. Basically, I am. And he's kind of saying he's an empty vessel. And so as the party's going on, he then, having revealed this to his father, is kind of wandering around with that new awareness. He says what Walton Goggins says, too, that they're both these empty vessels for different reasons.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Like Walton feels like his cup could never be filled. Saxon is like, I've chosen to have no identity, basically. So then you're like, aha, what is he going to be filled with? Like, what is going to happen? Then he goes to the party and he sits down with Chelsea and asks her, you know, why are you even with this old dude anyhow? He's a rich old guy.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And she explains and quite meaningfully is like, He has this sadness.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Which is also kind of a big theme of the whole show, right? Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
The enforcer? The enforcer. And then the executor.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And then also, by the way, while they're sitting there, he's watching from afar and his dad is over there like all sloppy drunk in his kind of spiral and he's seeing That there's something wrong there. And that's also, I think, pushing him internally to be like, am I open to the message of this woman here who I completely dismissed?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Yes, right. Yeah, exactly. He's like finally like ready to dig a little bit. Well, Chloe shows up and invites him into their sexual scenario.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Yeah. I liked the Oedipal personal psychological connection. like variant on being cuckolded. I was like, that was an interesting kind of, yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Right. Well, then when it gets into the notary, we're like, maybe it was an executor.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
You know what I mean? He's just so vanilla that he has never really I thought about – no, it's not possible. It's exposure to porn. It's not possible.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Yeah, the sequel is the executor of the will of whoever was enforced. Yes.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
I know. Actually. I know. That was like it's like almost like a candlelit scene.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
She's in her like cap sleeve kind of like prairie dress again. She looks like Kelly McGillis in Witness. Yeah. Like in the barn together. Yeah. And and yeah. And then he's like, what if I just stayed here with you? And then she freaks out and leaves. She takes her hand off of his leg. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
She's like, maybe I've pushed this too far. Like, what's why? What do you think is her fear there? Why does she recall?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Has to come and make sure. Yeah. I feel like in the plot of The Notary, I'm assuming that what happens is the notary's giant big physical book of signatures gets stolen.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Right. Right. It's interesting that, like, Saxon is so certain of who he is, right, and is telling Lachlan, you can be looked at just like me, basically. And then Saxon is even more destabilized now and is seeking his identity, which we see when he and Chelsea are walking home and they go back to her room and they're sitting on the bed.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And it's a quiet scene, but then I didn't even quite catch it until almost it was over that basically... He says, I'm ready. I'm now willing. Like what Rick can't do, which is like receive her message. Now Saxon is sitting there saying like, I'm ready. I'm here for you. I will take your message. And then she freaks out because she's like, oh, this could go the wrong way.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Now they're reaping. Now they have to reap.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
And then there's this kind of astonishing encounter because Piper goes in, she sees the monk, and... She's crying. She finally has a real emotional moment where you kind of see like for all of her sweater set perfectly kind of a bejeweled southern daughter self. She's a person that is troubled and there's nobody in her world that would ever be able to speak to her the way that the monk does.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Right. I would have said at the beginning that Tim is in the most trouble.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Yeah. So I found this whole scene to be... I mean, first of all, it hits him so hard. He's like... never heard basically anybody say anything like this to him. There's nobody in his world that could ever articulate anything outside of the expectations and judgment and the values and all the stuff that he's grown up with and the life of the patriarch of the Southern family that you know so well.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
But now, Saxon. It's definitely Saxon. He's in trouble. His world has been rocked.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
And so suddenly, a new set of words arrives, like a completely new idea, and he's shaken, basically, by this notion. And it's like the monk talks about how... People come from America and the West in general, presumably, and their sort of way of life is built around indulging the self and ego and self-preservation and so on.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
And so they are unable, basically, to sort of see through the forest until they get to Thailand, and that's what brings so many people here.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Right. I mean, what he's suggesting, the monk, to Timothy is that Piper's right. You can't just go for a week and go back and you're changed. You do have to stay there for a year. You do have to work at it. You do have to do what Lachlan suggests life is about, which is like a test to become a better person. That is the whole point.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Right. I mean, I think he becomes less afraid to die. Right. So at the beginning, he's afraid. End of last episode, he's got the gun to his head and then he gets interrupted. Then in this episode, he's imagining it, but he can't imagine it. It seems too difficult and it's painful. And like what happens afterwards? And then the monk tells him that death is a happy return.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
That's what he says at the very beginning. All right. So let's get into this episode, which is called Denials. And as always, it's written and directed by Mike White. And later in this episode, we'll be talking to Patrick Schwarzenegger, a.k.a. Saxon, and Leslie Bibb, who plays Kate. In general, the episode sort of gets into that's the morning after.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
When we die, there's no more suffering. It's like coming home. And to Tim, like that feeling of like, oh, right, it's just that simple. Like, I don't need to be afraid. Death has a happy return. And that seems to be like how he leaves the monastery kind of in this new frame of mind.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
legitimate, you know? He's the real deal. He's the real deal, yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Yes. Yeah. Right. Where he's no longer afraid. He's like, it's a mercy killing. And then I'm out. It's coming home. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Yeah, I will say. So I'm wondering now, I'm feeling this incredible kinship with Rick in general, but I don't quite understand. Now that the mission is getting closer, like what could possibly happen that would resolve this for him, that would make him different?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Right, right. I know it is a little bit of a strange mission that he has set out on. I mean, I don't think he knows exactly what he wants to do.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Right. He's only going to have his 10 minutes. Yeah, yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
When it was sort of a little bit vague in the distance, I was like, oh, yeah, right. He just needs to go back and, like, confront what happened to him. And then he'll come through, you know, anew in some way, even though that's impossible. And the fact that it's a fool's errand is becoming, to me, more apparent the closer it gets.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Because now he's there and he's in the house and he's going to go talk to the guy.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
It's like the many walks of shame, right, that intersect and then throw these sets of relationships into some tumult. This is like Saturday night, Sunday morning, you know, to some degree. It's like the ecstasy of Saturday night and then the reckoning of Sunday morning, which, by the way, I feel even just watching it, I was like, oh, yeah, right, the morning episode. Always comes. What?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
I'm really with this idea, but it's like, By the way, whatever happens, I'm going to be floored by it. I can already tell. I was almost going to start crying when you were just describing what you think he thinks is going to happen. I was like, oh, my God, that would be so beautiful if that happens.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
To what extent are you out of this life? What if he falls off the wagon? You know, you know.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
I just want to also note that in our many, many iterations now of Chekhov's gun, Guy Talk has snuck back in the villa and retrieved the gun. It's like this gun has changed hands. It's appeared. It's reappeared. It's been hidden. And like all these different things have happened with the gun.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
And so there is some kind of like incredible three card Monty going on with the plotting of like, well, where's this gun? How's it going to get used? How's it going to wind up? Who's after who? And that's sort of culminating in what is actually happening at the very end of the episode where Gary, who has told Chloe that he knows that she fucked one of the brothers.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
And he's maybe into it. Or he's just he's like so seems so sort of jaded and disconnected from life because he's not the guy that met Tanya. in season one at all anymore. And so like, what happened to him? And is he into it or is he just plotting to kill somebody? Is he trying to get, I mean, he invites Belinda to come so that he can maybe kill her. Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
That pool.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
And and so that's sort of the episode ends on this on this. The clock works, you know, chiming another, you know, another hour forward as they are some kind of they're going to something's going to happen when they all go to this dinner party. And now I'll be sitting down with Patrick Schwarzenegger to talk Saxon Ratliff.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
All right. Thanks, Patrick Schwarzenegger, for joining us on the White Lotus Season 3 official podcast. Thank you for having me. I'm excited. Yeah, indeed. I think the last time I saw you was at the full moon party. I know.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Well, that's actually also where we are in the show, sort of in the aftermath of the Full Moon Party. But before we kind of get to that, I just wanted to talk about the character in general, sort of watching it all the way through.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
It seemed to me like almost like as Mike deals with his archetypes and then subverts them, like this one is like Saxon is like the kind of unrestrained American male id, which is fun to see on screen. And so I was curious, was that fun to play?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
You mean just like in general? In general. Well, because I was so caught up in episode five where I'm like, they're at the party. The party will last forever. Yeah, the party's going to last forever. They're like, you know, Piper's over there studying Buddhism, but they're transcending and experiencing a new reality at the party. And then I was like, oh, no. Like, you get your hangover.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
I mean, even in the show in episode one, when everybody lands off the boat, Fabio and the hotel manager is like, oh, here you will be changed going home. And of course, in real life, nobody wants to change. They want to go back home like who they were, except all the characters here are like sort of forced to change by all the circumstances. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
And it's really fun, in particular with Saxon, because at first you're like, OK, I know exactly what this is. But you're like, well, how is everybody going to like, come out of their identity and the way it happens for sex. And it's like particularly dramatic, right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Yeah, you feel real pity for him. And even there's a point where he goes to his father and says, like, this is all I am. I'm not anything else. And they're like, oh, no, I feel sad for this guy.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Like, the next day comes. The morning after happens. There's no way out of it. And I felt like I was like, I had like duped myself like yet again. Yeah. Into believing I was going to live forever because I was like at this awesome party. I mean, in some way, all the characters are looking for transcendence in different forms.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Yeah. I mean, it's very profound throughout the show. And then the Ratliff family and then the siblings, it's like at each of these different scales and then within Saxon. And it kind of unfolds in this interesting way, like on the boat on the way to the full moon party, Lothan says something sort of like, one of these days I'm going to own you, right? And then Saxon's sort of like, attaboy, yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Does not know what that is going to turn out to be. Neither of them do, right? Did you know that that was coming with the character when you signed on to the show?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
I was shocked actually when it was the development, but it is so satisfying because also it's not just for shock value. It is actually about the sense of self and meaning and now what, who am I?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
And there's drugs and sex or there are people that come from this background of money offers happiness or where do you find your happiness? And I was kind of stirred into the belief that the ecstatic. You know, revelry can also be transcendent, which I do think it can. But I was like, I was really feeling it. And now I'm like, oh, I that was not what was intended for that party.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Well, I know you were jealous not to be sitting beside me talking to Patrick.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Oh, that's right. Really exciting for me. Well, he had no idea when he signed on for the show what was going to happen to his character.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Yeah, of course. I campaigned for this. I have to play that guy.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Yeah, it was great.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
We have to become an Asian woman.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
We see, well, there's a little moment with Belinda. She wakes up in the arms of Pornshy. Her son catches them in bed. Sweet, funny little moment.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
The White Lotus Podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media. This episode was hosted by Gia Tolentino and Josh Behrman. Natalia Winkleman is the managing producer. Our associate producers are Allison Haney, Anthony Puccillo, and Aaliyah Papes. Sound design and mix by Ewen Lai-Trimuen. At Campside Media, our executive producer is Josh Dean.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
For the HBO podcast team, our executive producer is Michael Gluckstadt, senior producer Allison Cohen-Zarokach, and producer Kenya Reyes. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Right, everything's going well for her, so something must be off.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Yeah. Her son has shown up. That's all she wanted. He seems impossibly handsome. Her son's proud of her. Yeah. Yeah, he's proud of her. Hot son is proud of her. They have an adult relationship, it seems like, from the little interactions we get. And then, yeah, and he, and then Pornchai asks her about, oh, maybe we could, in fact, open up such a place here. And that seems intriguing to her,
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Because it's a dream. And then it's also coming from somebody who's not like a solipsistic billionaire ass who might like abandon her and the idea at the drop of a hat, like what happens with Tanya, which she still feels burned by. So she's like, aha, maybe there is this is all meant for to be. And which then leaves us thinking maybe it's meant not to be.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Yeah, I mean, I was thinking about him also in relation to this idea of death as it relates to the Buddhist notion of death that we hear from the monk and over the course of the seasons, right? Like, Armand is...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
trapped and he is released by his death at the end of season one and then we think like oh poor Tanya she died and you read that as victim but maybe she's not a victim maybe he's the victim because now he's trapped here still in a state of anhedonia he has everything he wanted he has all this money he has this boat and he's this
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Completely miserable person. He doesn't even have a revenge fantasy. He doesn't even have some burning wounds like Rick Walton Goggins that he can maybe redeem somehow. He just is a person who's incapable of joy in any way.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
With the gals, Kate sees Valentin sneaking out of Jacqueline's room.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
I was wondering about that. I was not... of certain mind about whether Kate was just daft. I was wondering if she thought, oh, maybe we're just doing more two girls gossiping about the third. But I did know, what I knew for sure was that this is going to be different than all the other gossip sessions. This is going to- Because someone's going to confront.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
It's like throwing a grenade into the foxhole.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Now she has the moral high ground. For the first time.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
And I'm Josh Behrman.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Right, of course. You know, it's not even cheating. No, it's the, like, psychological chess game that Lori thinks Jacqueline was playing. I sort of felt... sympathetic to Jacqueline who was like, I didn't have any plan. And I don't think she did have a plan. It did just happen. But of course, she is the one who always was able to be in that position to make it happen.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
And that's the eternal grievance, right, that Lori has. Yeah. I don't think Jacqueline was scheming.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Oh, right. Did they not have it the whole time? Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Right. And so at some point of the night, she made a decision. Look at you reading between the lines.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Between in this deleted scenes. When did this even happen?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
But that statement also exists in this other context of what's going on in the show in general, where... Some people are changing in this episode. And we've seen, I mean, Frank surely changed from last, you know, according to his monologue. And so it's interesting. Like, the truth of that statement is also in some kind of conflict or tension with the truth that people are transformed.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
The tension between those two things is probably what is going on in this whole season.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Then you have the two Ratliff boys. So they wake up on the boat. Saxon is... Barfing.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
It's sort of being revealed slowly, and then he realizes that he's, well, he doesn't quite know what the full extent of what happened is, but even just the thought of he's jerking off in bed. While looking at his brother. Looking at his brother, he gets seasick and runs and barfs. You guys forced us to.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Right. Okay, good question. This episode is doing a good job of like everybody could want to kill somebody else or be in trouble or be desperate or be the mark of somebody who's desperate.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
He's no longer, yeah, the confident man who kind of like swishes through life with ease, right? All of a sudden he's not himself. So then the kids are all at the pool.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
She's a lover. She wants to connect with somebody's soul. And maybe we're going to, even that'll happen in another life. Yeah. And she's like, he has no soul. But now I wonder, he's troubled. So all of a sudden, it's like the grain of sand that becomes the pearl. Like there's an agita that's going to turn into something.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Tim and Saxon, they go off together for a year and they come back, new people. And dad does his time. And then they get out and start some kind of like Habitat for Humanity type of philanthropic work. And they're reborn as the true pillars of the community that they always thought they were. Yes. And so the boys come back to the family. Piper wants to go to the monastery.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
It reminded me that at the very beginning of White Lotus season one, when they're greeting the boat, Armand is there and they're all smiling and he's there with the woman who later just gives birth in the middle of the hotel. She's a trainee and he's saying, what you want to do is be nobody. You know, you don't want to be too specific.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
He's just like, you just want to be like a non-presence, not a person. So you're like, he's saying deny your identity. Later, he like throws that yoke off and like rolls with his identity and he winds up dead, right? So I feel like there's like a cautionary tale in the aspect of Of your identity. And it's now I see it like running through the whole thing.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
And he's like, it's a good business.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
That's when I was like, oh yeah, now I get it. That's where I fit in. Who are you identifying with?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Right. I think part of the idea of the show is that character is not destiny.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Right. Classic storytelling is that character is destiny.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Right. By converse logic also, there is, I think, a line in there where they say, oh, after you leave here, you'll be a whole new person. But of course, the reality is that people go on vacation and they don't want to, they want to be the same person. Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
They think they want to have something new, but they actually want to go to the hotel and come home and go back to their house and be the same as they were. And that's the trap that most people would step into, I guess, if you were following the kind of like spiritual logic of the show. And then some people break out. Yeah, I wonder who that's going to be.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Welcome to the White Lotus Season 3 podcast, the companion show to the series. It's nice to have you guys both. Thank you very much.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Thank you.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
What's interesting to me watching it is that you guys have this lovely little romance, this courtship, but it's also, both of the characters are very different from your real lives, right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Like, you're an international, you know, pop star, and you come from a military background, and, you know, where your character's sort of supposed to be, like, unfamiliar with that world, and so what was that like, sort of playing these two different types of people from yourselves who are then interacting with each other?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
And where do you land in that trio?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Like you wanted to immediately disarm them and take them down.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
You feel it right away from the first encounter with the moped.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Basically.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
I thought you started this morning. You already started rehearsing some moves.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Here we have Sam Nivola, who plays Lachlan Ratliff. Welcome to the White Lotus Season 3 podcast, and nice to see you again. It's nice to see you again, and nice to meet you. I'm very happy to be here.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
They probably console themselves by believing that their gossip is actually a form of caring because they're talking about, oh, poor things went through this troubled time. But it's not really constructive, compassionate. It's because they don't do anything. There's no action taken. And then later, the other leg of the stool is present when it's. Laurie and Kate.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
You're like, are you sure I shouldn't play Saxon?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Yeah, it's interesting. It's really well set up with the very first scene getting to the villa where You're trying to decide which room. Are you going to be a child still and sleep with your sister or be an adult and follow the male lineage of the family? And the same with the decision with Chapel Hill and Duke, right? Yeah, exactly. Which way are you going?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
You chose adulthood over the extended adolescence of college.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Yeah, exactly. And then it seemed like she picks up that they're talking about her explicitly, right? They're trying to like basically undo that facade brick by brick in the conversation they were having just before.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
That never goes away. I think actually to the point you were making about the way that there's sort of not a judgment about the character and the choices that you make and – Things can go right or wrong, and it's okay. I think that, for me, kind of holds true for the show in general, that that's probably what it's about, right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
The show is very sympathetic to all the characters, even in their deepest mistakes. And so I'm curious, is that something you felt coming from Mike as the show's being made?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
The White Lotus Podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media. This episode was hosted by Gia Tolentino and Josh Bierman. Natalia Winkleman is the managing producer. Our associate producers are Allison Haney, Anthony Puccillo, and Aaliyah Papes. Sound design and mix by Ewan Leitrim-Ewan. At Campside Media, our executive producer is Josh Dean.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Yeah. Talk. Right. Right. Also, I mean, I feel it's again, I feel like it's difficult to watch, but it's also I think the writing is sympathetic to the characters. Like they're not malevolent. They're all doing it's all kind of self-preservation. Right. Because you're feeling these instincts of comparison and your emotional hackles are based on your friend's success or not. And so so.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
There's this compulsion basically to try to then measure yourself and like rebalance it by having your side gossip or introducing a negative thought about the other friend to the third one, right? Like it's just it's like this natural sort of self-preservation. I also loved their interaction with Fabian, the hotel director. Oh, my God.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
When he comes over and reveals that he, too, would love to perform. No, no.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Emerging out of a giant clamshell. Yeah, exactly. Also, I am very thrown off by the fact that this is the same actor who plays Rudolf Hoest, the Auschwitz commandant in Zone of Interest. Wow. His range. Yeah. So I'm excited to see where Fabian winds up. So we have also a scene with Mook and Guy Talk, the Thai staff. He really blew it there. I know. He pulled the fish hook before it was baited.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
He basically asked her to marry him elliptically without any context or preface. As she said, we've never been on a date. Oh, but I, you know, obviously everybody's going to be shipping these two. I know.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
With the robbery.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
It appears like there's a deception operation here so that a car can get in and there's mass dudes running with guns and steal cars.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
And I'm Josh Bierman.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
He gets pistol whipped.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
You gasped. Did I?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Mm-hmm. It's interesting, quick side note, that guy, the real guy, is like a special forces. Really? He's like a military guy.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
And yeah, and you can tell, like if you meet him, he's not like that character at all.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Yeah, I know, that's so sweet. Yeah. Well, I'm hoping for them. I was struck by something with the robbery. What happens just after is the classic White Lotus dinner seating, which still remains much more dramatic than the robbery had just happened. You're like, oh, OK, I guess so. I don't know. I've seen that before.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
What's going to happen at dinner? I mean, I was even thinking about how the show works in this novelistic setting. way of like making the rounds through all the characters over and over again and each time adding a little bit of layer of personality and so on. So we had the Quebecois maybe escort.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
And Gary slash Greg.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
And the foursome at dinner. What about you? What do you do? Well, the same thing that you do, Gary. This and that.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
I'm glad that you made a friend. By the way, that sex scene, surprising. Yeah. But also that it seemed very genuine and tender. And then I was... Again, I was like, all you want to be do if you're like wounded, you all you want to be do is like taken care of by like an open hearted fawn.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Yes. Although this may be the last warning, because by now you probably know how podcasts work. Yeah. And later on in this episode, we're going to be speaking with Taim Taptim-Tong and Lalisa Manaval, who play Gaitak and Mook, and Sam Nivola, who plays the youngest Ratliff, Lachlan.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
And so that's what he then it made. So now I get like this is why they're together.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Right. Right. Even not sexually. Like she throws out the tantric, you know, offer at the beginning and he doesn't go for it. And it's only when he really. Has been brought low by the meditation session. Yes, exactly, that he's, like, open to receive her.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
What? Aren't they all supposed to be a little specie specie? Ah!
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
It's interesting. I mean, Saxon is this very timely rearticulation of just like pure American male id. He's like Gordon Gekko. He's like this, you know, from Wall Street.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
And his parents just giggle about it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
That could be coming.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
How do I have that in my house? Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
What are you talking—why are you two discussing this?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Some of the characters now we're seeing some leads as to what might happen, right? So Belinda. Oh, I love Belinda's moment. Clocks the hot bod. Pornchise. Pornchise bod. So how would you like me? On my back or on my stomach. And she's like, on my stomach. And he's like, I'm at me. And then she also clocks Gary slash Greg at the dinner, right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Or is she going to suddenly start sleuthing?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
It's true. I mean, how is he to know that Belinda's going to show up on her training mission?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
No.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
One thing I was struck by watching is that a lot of this episode is about performance. You have the vocal performance at the dinner from the matron of the hotel. And then, of course, you have the three friends who are on their girls' trip who are engaging in this ongoing self-performance for each other, which then drops when one of them is away.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Yeah, yeah. I'm now stronger in the Goggins direction. When he gets into the treatment center and is there in this kind of spiritual repartee with the guru there. I don't need to detach. I'm already nothing.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Well, I mean, it must be exhausting to write, to put that on. Can you write to be performing all the time? But also that family, the Ratliff family, is a group performance of some kind, right? Piper's trying to opt out. Lachlan's unsure. Saxon's the biggest. He wants to be the new leading man.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
And then the parents are kind of orchestrating the whole thing. And you I mean, it's already the edifice is already cracking. Right. And we are able to see as viewers actually in the wings of that performance.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Again, by the way, I was thinking about the prison of identity.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
And the therapist says the same thing to Rick.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Yeah, and I was an extra. I was dancing around, but I did not get a glimpse of myself, so I was very disappointed.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Kate throws a wet blanket on the party.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
I was... gripping the table. But no, we'll have to watch it again.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Oh, my God. Your incest, it arrived.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
The charitable view is that it's, you know, some surprise intimacy. I don't know. I also, well, I didn't expect it. So at the beginning when they walk into the villa and they have to decide on the bedrooms and Saxon talks about adult genitals and you're like, ooh, the promise of incest lurks. And I was like, yeah, no, I don't think so. Like, that's not going to happen. And then here it did.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
No, I didn't believe it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
This is just an astonishing sequence or scene even. It's just one scene and it's one conversation. And it's this incredible monologue. And so it's like a monologue in the mode of classic. It's like Olivier. It is an incredible monologue. Story that he tells and the way he tells it. And then on the look on Rick Weltengaga's face as he's assimilating this knowledge, this new story is incredible.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
I also love what's funny about it is they're old friends and they haven't seen each other in a while. And there's kind of like always, you see old friends like, I wonder what's different.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
And that's the setup for like, oh, we're going to learn something. He's sober now. Right. And you always think like, oh, yeah, OK, my friend got sober. I know what that story is. Nope. No.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
I mean, we can— Well, we don't—yes.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Oh, right. He's sharing.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
He's also – I mean, his delivery is very matter-of-fact, right? And he's telling him the story. But he's also so self-assured of where he is and who he is that he betrays no trace of fear about telling his friend what he tells him, which is like – Such a funny way to invert what his, like your Asian fetish.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
This turns out to be different.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
He says, he starts like, oh, I have an Asian fetish. That fetish turns out to be something else entirely.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
To be like another facet of my sort of projected self.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
This is what I thought was just astonishing about this because it's like Frank is like blowing Rick's mind. Right. He's sitting there kind of like with his doers like, oh, wow. And it's not even like, what did I get myself into? He is just... Accepting this new information about his friend.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
And it's like this incredible monologue about his kink, which turns out to actually be this profound idea about decoupling your identity. Right. Which is what the show is about.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
It's embedded in a context that requires some external factors. It's not completely internal, even though it is about his identity and actually coming to some Self-realization I think that the others have not had right there is something going on where I mean he says oh wow Well sex is a poetic act.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
A big part of this episode is our three gals and Chloe, Chelsea, Lachlan, and Saxon on the party boat. I mean, we're at episode five. It's kind of like the midpoint of the story. And it's also that part, like if you're at camp or you're on vacation, there's the moment when You're skinny dipping in the pool on ecstasy, right? This is what is happening in this episode.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
It's like he uses carnality as a mode of seeking and so it's like Trying to discover the infinite by getting close to death via sex while not being yourself and trying to understand yourself through other people and all this I was like This is this is a new idea. I had not thought of this before.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
And I was sure as fuck not prepared for Frank, the guy who's going to help get our guy Rick tomorrow calling in the final to deliver this this new idea.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Right, it's true. And also just... The egolessness in the throes of like pure sexual reverie.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
So that's another kind of way to try to get towards this glimpse the absolute. Right. Which like Piper's seeking one way. They're seeking a different way over at the full moon party. And then Frank comes. Frank blows the door off the hinges with his way. Yeah. The episode ends on Tim Ratliff with the gun. He's been trying to get the gun back the whole time.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
And he's writing a suicide note and he's going to kill himself. But he's interrupted by his wife. And so then... He reveals a little bit obliquely about here's what's wrong is all the expectations. Do you know what I've been exposed to ever since I was a kid? And then again, like the identity is a prison.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Those expectations are what made him into the person that he is that did the favor for the $10 million to be a pillar of the community, to be in the country club. to have the beautiful family where everybody can go to Duke, and then now the agony he must be in to not be able to explain what this is.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Right. This being the mid-point of the show, it's the point at which all the characters have accepted where they are, and they're also making choices and crossing the Rubicon, right? So there is some kind of built-in sense of they're all now making these choices, and how is it going to play out for the rest of the season?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Everybody has just like the inhibitions have been shed. They've surveyed the social landscape, felt present, and now they're ready. They're going for it. I mean, it's montaged together, right? You're seeing kind of these dual images of both parties, right? And so there's sort of, on the boat, It's in stages. They're like, there's the approach to the party.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Who will be transformed, basically.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Yeah. And it's also interesting. The show is making a commentary, which is travel in the modern age. It's about sort of vacation and like pina coladas, right? It's about reading your summer read and your Mai Tai. Whereas travel before, I don't know, the 19th century was... dangerous or magical, right? All the mythical stories are like, you're going to go somewhere. Acquire knowledge.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Yeah, acquire knowledge, learn something about yourself, be transformed or die in glory or whatever. That's not what travel is about anymore. And so what it's saying is like, maybe it is, right? Maybe you will go to a foreign place and discover something exotic, not in the colonial sense, but outside of yourself and come back a different person. If you come back at all, because of course,
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
And now we'll be speaking to Carrie Coon. Welcome, Carrie Coon, to the official White Lotus season three podcast.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
We were sort of intrigued as we were watching the show how the sort of each two sets of the women get the chance to talk to each other. Yes.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Yes. Oh, yeah. And she was like, oh, yeah, sure. Every woman is going to be able to recognize themselves and their sets of friends in this. So we were wondering, did you know a Jacqueline in high school?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
It's almost kind of like the mythical passage making, right? They're crossing the water. They're talking about what to expect and then they get to the party.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Your character's the one at the beginning who says, oh, we're all mirrors of each other. And we all, like when we were kids, we all saw each other in ourselves. But as you get older, that becomes the mirror mirror on the wall who's the fairest of them all, right? And it's a dangerous mirror to look at.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
I know he says Saxon doesn't do drugs. So it's like a classic like a third person.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
But Lachlan does. He goes right for it immediately. Saxon is shocked. And then I guess Saxon does do drugs because he felt the peer pressure and he does it. And I like how he's almost immediately seems like on the verge of epiphany. Right. When they get to the full moon party, since he's like never, you know, not in control. Right. Of his own self. Confidence lock.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
I will say I personally was disappointed that Laurie did not take home Valentin.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Right. I was a little surprised. She was like right away.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Yeah, exactly right. And I'm not the Jacqueline you see on screen, but I am the Jacqueline in the environment of my small town setting.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Welcome, Parker Posey, to the official White Lotus Season 3 podcast. Nice to have you.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
At this point in the show, the sort of chickens are coming home to roost for Tim, this bad deal with Kenny, and it's not yet clear to Victoria. But he's obviously acting different, and sort of the family is under threat. But the whole time, Victoria's saying, talking about the family's values, we have these good values, and those people with the boat, do they have good values?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
And so we were wondering, thinking about that, is Victoria's recitation always of what our families are like? Is that like a... like a true belief or almost like a spell trying to like, to ward off what she knows is actually a rot underneath the families.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
He's always, like, at the gym, getting his pump, drinking his protein powder. And so to be kind of, like, intoxicated in a real way is something new to him.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Yeah, I had a hint of a sense at the very end of the first episode The Ratliffs are in their villa and they're talking and they're sort of cataloging what we've done and what we have and Victoria's saying, you built all this. And I was like, is there a Lady Macbeth vibe where there's a forceful woman back there?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Our collective meme has been like, We flew over the North Pole.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
What did you think? I think that's what I would have guessed too.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
All right. Well, thanks for joining us.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
I know. Well, and she's like, you know, luxuriating in her blossomy blouse for a while. Yeah, that was fun. I didn't realize that she, that is her accent.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
They're having their little, like, boys chat, and then Lachlan says, One day, I'm gonna take you down. Yeah?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
And then Saxon is, I think he knows, oh. That's what I want to hear. That's what I want to hear from this kid. But he doesn't know what that is about to mean because then when he is the one person who's afraid to take the drugs and does and you get the sense even that he's not even necessarily a big drinker. He doesn't get drunk. Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
And he says even like you slow down because you got to get the ladies drunk.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
He's like he's. you know, like tosses back a few frosty ones, but he's not out there getting drunk. So to be on ecstasy.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Right. Well, and she says you can't spend your life trying to rescue people. Yeah. But that is exactly what she's going to do.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Right. They're in a little bit more of like a contemplative state.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Right. Right. Right. He would have been the person that if you'd asked me, like, no, no, no, I don't question anything. And then. No. Well, now he does. Yes. But what's interesting, this might have been some kind of sense memory for me because I had kind of a similar experience while I happened to be there when the full moon party was shooting. And it's 50,000 people. It's this ridiculous scene.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
It is not my scene. It's not where I ever would have wound up going. And neither was it really for most of the cast. So everybody had this amped up weird energy like we're going to the full moon.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
And I'm Josh Bierman.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Yes. There's people getting like blacklight painting, you know, and like butterflies on their face and girls wearing like fairy wings. Right, right, right. Dudes like with backpack and no shirt on. Right, right. It really is just sort of like spring break Daytona Beach, but Thai beach style. And it's ridiculous. And there's dudes breathing fire. And you get these buckets of booze. You get a drink.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
It's in a bucket. And I just did have this experience where at a certain point, we were making fun of the party, kind of observing the party. And then there just was a moment where we're like, And now I'm at this party. Yeah, it's unironic. And then I'm not. There's no irony anymore. We're dancing. And then that went on for hours. I had like dropped in, which is what happens in the episode. Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Like they all kind of like drop into this experience. OK, let's go for it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
And they get onto the dance floor with the three Russians. This was thrilling. I found this.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
She has engineered the perfect party.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Oh my God, it was so good. And they're each reacting to the party in a different way.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Now the party is the mirror.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Right. That's true. So we can, you know, sympathize with Kate a little bit. She got kind of the dud.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
But she kind of assigned herself the dud, right? Because she's the dud between the three of them, right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Yeah, exactly. Right. But just like a great satisfaction for Lori and Jacqueline. I feel like I got like, I shed a tear in the party scene watching those girls dance. Really? Yeah. I'm really feeling it for them.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
She's having her quiet courtship with Pornchai.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
That's a beautifully comic scene.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
I know, it could be this bed, it could be that bed. They face an external threat, the monitor lizard, and then that brings them together. The tonal tension in the show is so effective by the way that it's...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
ratcheting up at the party between the two different party scenes, and then every so often flashing back to the sort of quiet of the hotel and what's going on there, which is Belinda's careful sleuthing.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Yeah, exactly.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
You don't want to know who the killers are.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
The Ratliff parents and Piper are having their reduced Ratliff family dinner.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Right. Everybody's, there's a new permission structure.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Right. I mean, it is it's funny. It's like she's articulating the explicit. It's almost like the schoolgirls version of the search, the thematic idea of the show of searching. Right. She's she's expressing out loud in this well-articulated way what everybody else can't really figure out how to say for themselves.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Whereas Piper is studying it in school and wants to go spend like a year at a monastery to try to even figure out what the question that Lachlan just spontaneously presented to his brother is. Listen, I admire her sort of like A student, earnest approach to learning about this other culture that is clearly going to be more meaningful to her than the world she grew up in.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Oh, yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
But Piper's like, I got to go to this place for a year to even figure out what I might want to understand about myself. Whereas everybody else is at the party and they're finding out.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
It's like, yes, another completely different form of its own transcendence, right, is what's happening at that party or on the dance floor. And she's doing all this work to figure it out.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
I've got issues? Mm-hmm. Oh, you're the one who's crazy.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Greg, Tanya's husband.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Well, they're married, so he would inherit the money, presumably. And I don't know if it's ever explicitly revealed.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
I visited the set, so I was on set while they were shooting parts of the show, and I might actually be in an episode. I don't know yet.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Yes. That's my assumption. Maybe we will find out otherwise.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
And it's, you know, Thailand is the type of place to sort of, you know, disappear with your money, which, by the way, is I'm wondering what you make of Walton's quest. He's here for some reason. He was arrested. He can't go to Australia.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
He's got enough money to be there. What is his past? I have no idea.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
I don't know either. Well, you should know. This is your guy. I know. I know. I know. Look within yourself. Imagining myself as Samuel— I can see a lot of scenarios where I would wind up there. I have no idea. I have a hunch that's probably going to be wrong that there's some sort of business past.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
The metathesis?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Well, I have a thesis about season one, which now relates to season three. And so I feel sort of, you know, semi-vindicated so far. But I feel like season one is, despite the kind of surface level dealing in ideas of wealth and privilege and so on, that it actually was this kind of Buddhist parable. It's about...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
how basically everybody is wrestling with their own internal suffering and they're all unhappy. Even Shane, the rich guy, right, who's like, we're in the wrong suite, we need the pineapple suite. And you think he's the villain, but it's just that he's on vacation and he also can't be happy, right? Like upstairs or downstairs, everybody is like having this internal suffering. And
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
They don't know where to find meaning or happiness, right? That's what everybody's kind of looking for. And they don't even realize it. And then, over the course of that season, the only people who get off the wheel are Armand, because he dies, with a smile on his face.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
I mean, he starts quoting Tennyson about death is the end of life and all this stuff. And you see him kind of, like, let go, basically, of himself. And then... Quinn, the son, communes with nature. The guy's addicted to his phone and porn. And he communes with nature and sees a whale and then gets on the boat and all of a sudden just escapes.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
That's the only way out basically is to like dive into the ocean, right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Yeah. I mean, well, that's the nature of Buddhism, right? The four noble truths. The first one is all life is suffering. And the second one is suffering is caused by needs or attachments or desires. And so that is, I feel like, what season one is actually about, kind of underneath everything.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Everybody has to have needs.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Yes. Now we're in a place where it's like the whole country is like this blank canvas for people's spiritual seeking. Right. And it's a Buddhist country.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Identity is a prison. No one is spared this prison. Rich man, poor man, success or failure. We build the prison, lock ourselves inside, then throw away the key.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
The guy says identity is a prison. I think that is that's what the show is about. OK, that's the yeah, that is the head.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
And then and he says no one is spared, rich, poor, whatever. And I think that that is why I feel like that's what is happening in season one, too. And in that respect. I think in general, Mike is very sympathetic to all the characters. There are no real villains. Nobody is a bad person.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Yes, right. Well, yes, exactly. This time it's going to be on purpose. Somebody's going to be killed on purpose. Yeah. Or perhaps. But even so, I think that whatever motivations, whatever happens that leads people to that place, I feel like
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
The show and Mike is fundamentally sympathetic to that because it's all born out of whatever vulnerability and human frailties that people have that lead them to question themselves, to worry about who they are and what is meaningful. Even in this episode of the family and the three women, at a certain point, they catalog what they have. They all catalog what they have.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
So you know, like, it's going to get, something's going to get lost, right? And then we're going to see what happens.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Or you have a deep insight into the whole scope of the show.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
We'll be joined later in the episode by White Lotus EP Dave Burnett and Michelle Monaghan, who plays Jacqueline.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Well, I have two answers. I'll give you both answers. Neither of them are perfect, obviously. My first instinct actually was the Walton Goggins character. Hell yeah, brother. I feel like the sort of leathery burnout phase could be in my future. I can see it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
We've been debating. What the relationship between the three women was as girls in high school or junior high was Jacqueline sort of the queen bee and the other two are vying for her attention? Are they all on an equal playing field? And now because of her career, she's sort of emerged on top.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Jacqueline's like, I don't remember.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Yeah. I think that's the clue that she was the preeminent one. Yeah. She doesn't remember this performance.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
No. And with a mysterious dark past. He's in paradise but miserable. I've had that phase of life. Could be coming back around again in the future. And at the other end, I think probably Lachlan, Sam Navola's character, the younger brother in the family, that not that particular family but sort of being... the odd man out in a family, right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
It's interesting. In this episode is when we're getting to know Jacqueline. All the three ladies. I think Lori, Carrie Coon says, it's like we're all mirrors.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Well, that's the thing. I feel like it makes that sense. She's talking about in the youth, right? When you're kind of learning who you are and your friends do mirror you and you discover who you are by the mirroring of social life with friends. your deepest friends. But then as you get older, the mirror means something different. It's like mirror, mirror on the wall. Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Like it's the trick mirror. And so then now you're now the mirror is actually a comparative mirror and it's telling you something different about yourself by the gaze at your friends. Right. And then that's what unfolds throughout. And you see all that just in that one or two scenes. It's so well drawn.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
This is the key question.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Really?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
And feeling like you're trying to figure out who you are and trying to define yourself against your family. My family did not go on vacation. That was like opposed to our ethos. And we certainly wouldn't have been to the White Lotus, but I could kind of see being that kid and trying to like figure out your way and being confused by your own family.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
I think she is the newly elevated head of a spy agency. And she finds out that there's a subversive element within the agency. She has to root it out by herself.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
We're going to pitch this. Yeah, exactly. We've developed this. Well, we're going to, we'll pitch it to Bernard. Yeah, pitch it to Bernard, our next guest. Our next guest is Dave Bernard, the executive producer of White Lotus and an old pal of mine. I'm looking forward to chatting with him. All right, we're now joined by White Lotus EP, Dave Bernard. Good to see you. How's it going?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Almost. Almost, yeah. That's how I got a free trip to Thailand.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
And then winding up 40 years later as Walton Collins.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
We were talking about this, and you were saying that you were originally drawn to Japan, but to place the story there juxtaposes the cultures differently. The culture of Japan is so specific that you have to embed the characters and how they're relating to Japanese culture, whereas Thailand is a more neutral culture.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
territory for visitors to come and they don't have to navigate the local culture in the same way.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Yes. Seriously. Yeah. This is the breakthrough we might need. Yeah. I have vivid dreams already. Do I need to be writing them down? Yes, you should.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Well, it's interesting that Thailand was the second thought because the sort of defining thing about visiting Thailand is the Buddhist culture. Was the Buddhism there when you were also thinking about Japan or did it really come to the surface in this dream? By the way, Jay wants to know exactly what was in the nebulizer.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
I know I feel very vindicated now. You know, my whole thesis about season one is Buddha's parable. And then as season three is unfolding, it's like, aha, here it is now on the surface.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Oh, that's a good question. Probably also Walton Goggins.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Yeah, you'll notice a lot of bald white guys in Thailand. Yeah. The locals call them LBH's losers back home.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
I have a question for you about how the show is very unusual in that You have the pilot does give you obviously a hint of like something bad happens. The first one, it's fairly mild. In number two, well, probably foul play. And then in this one now, you know there's gunfire. There's like intentional violence coming.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
And so it's kind of like ratcheting up what the stakes are going to likely be from the cold open basically. But then season one is very simple ultimately, right? The whole action is motivated by they got the wrong hotel room. And then in season two, there is like a murder plot and stuff that happens. So in season three, is this plot wise going to be more complicated?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Like what's where is this headed?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
All right, great. Well, I'm sure everybody else is going to be having a rotating identification through all the characters over the course of the season. So now let's get into the first episode.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
I found this to be quite terrifying, actually. Yeah, I know. I wasn't really caught up in this opener, which is different from the others, obviously. It was way steep in the water and trying to figure out where to go, and my mom's out there, and I was really on edge. I'm, like, squeamish and, like— movies or TV that produce anxiety. So this really got me.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
You know at the beginning.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
I love that. So then we flash back to one week earlier and everybody's arriving and you have the usual sort of socioeconomic and personality dynamics in the choreography of what's happening on the boat.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
This is Lisa.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
And I'm Josh Behrman.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Yeah. But then you can't when she's so, you know, plays this like buttoned up demure character in this that you it's hard to realize that there's this international global superstar in there. Yeah, I know.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Yeah, there's like a pretty in pink dynamic going on here.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Yeah, totally. So, of course, I'm wondering, like, what's going on? Are they going to wind up together? What's going to happen? Is it going to be like pretty and pink? Is she going to go away? I want them to wind up together. I do too.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Yeah. And then we have Belinda.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Yes.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
was very nice to see her again on screen um so we see that she's in thailand and she's there studying and she's greeted by porn chai the um the masseuse at this white lotus and belinda's the one that you most want to have like the triumphant you know walk away with huge bags of and yet somehow even seeing how excited she is and how she's like i really have a
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
good feeling you're like oh no melinda i know i know having just re-watched season one i was struck again how emotionally damaging her encounter with tanya was and how she's kind of left holding she's been recovering for the last few years and here she is yeah she's finally getting her chance to trust again and then something and then there's going to be a gunfight yeah
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
And a few words before we get started. This is the Companion podcast, which means we'll be discussing the latest episode of the White Lotus. So make sure you watch it before you listen, or you will be spoiled.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Well, I was, there was a little bit of like, they step off the boat and open their mouths. And so I thought it was coming on strong, but you say it's spot on.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Yeah, how wonderful for you.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
We are a normal family. I like that they have to assure our strangers.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
What's the Wi-Fi?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
As journalists, we know as the subject should not answer that call. Yeah. If we can't reach you, it's better for you.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Yes, right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Right, if he knew what it was about or even had any inclination.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Yeah, bizarre.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
There's this like gender breakdown also in the family where the women went to Chapel Hill.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Yes.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
You know, witness that.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
A little bit about your hosts. We're both journalists and authors and have both worked in film and television as well. I'm Josh. I write for magazines. I write narrative nonfiction stories. And I have worked in film and TV because many of my stories have been optioned for the movie business. That's how I know Mike White and Dave Burnett, the creator and producers of the show.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
So next we have Jacqueline, Lori and Kate speaking.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
They're, you know, three tight girlfriends all the way through basically their young adult life. And they've stayed friends, and now they're getting their long-awaited vacation together. And this also is a really great experience. complex of characters that so much is laid out in just their first real introduction.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
And, of course, by the way, what could go wrong when three longtime girlfriends go on vacation?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
She's supposed to be the dowdy one.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
I know. I'm like, how is it going to go down and how does the tape play forward? And also you can kind of see I feel like you can roll the tape back even, right, and see that, like, oh, in high school, the distribution of power and social currency was present then, too, right? Oh, yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Right, right, right, right. It's when she threatens.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
They're actually really good together. They're a totally functional couple.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Right, that's true.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Right. Well, first of all, we should just note, very spicy episode.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
It's actually not that he's hiding. It's too painful for him to reveal, basically, right? Because he knows that... Once that happens, then the dam is going to break, right? And then he has to reveal all of himself to her. And then maybe that's dangerous. Maybe she won't want to be with him anymore, right? Who knows what that entails.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Also on the boat, you get more of the, like, lovely sibling dynamics between the Ratliffs and Saxons trying to get Lachlan laid with the lovely ladies. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
If you go, what about me?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
This thing is kicking the gear here.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And then it turns out he's very good at it, wowing the ladies.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
It is sweet how all the siblings really need each other. And even though Saxon's giving Piper her time, I feel like if Piper needed Saxon, he would be there. Yes. Right? Like he would 100% show up for her. I'm curious, actually, how your feelings have developed if at all about Saxon. Because my...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it could also just be.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah. Well, he has a weakness now. He has a vulnerability. Like he's not perfect. He thinks he's perfect, but he's not, which is among the worst kind of vulnerabilities. Right. And so I'm finding him a little bit more sympathetic. It could also be I like watching him. Like, he has such an ease of it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
The way that he flirts with those girls, the way that he has, like, all the exact movements down of, like, how to deal with them.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Uh-huh, right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
So for me, it's the opposite, where it's like, that's the guy that, like, I wanted to be in high school, right? And the guy that I always saw and was like, How do you pull that off?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And I think he might, but I want that out of him. you know, for all of his pride, and which is go a thing before the fall, he still is somebody who's lived life and has raised children and has dealt with like the emotional kind of vulnerabilities of just that alone, right? You just are different at that stage in life than where Saxon is.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And so we have like the wounded lion of Rick, and then like the proud father coming undone. And then I wonder where like, The striding buck is what's going to happen with him, like, when his, you know, foot gets caught in the trap, to extend the Sylvan metaphor.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
But, like, I also just, I mean, in some ways also I'm thinking about, like, Patrick Schwarzenegger himself is kind of from this, you know, he's a Kennedy.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah, exactly. And he just, he moves through the world in that way. It's like, oh, am I watching, is this what, like... Jack Kennedy was like, you know, at Harvard, right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
So the first thing we see is Jacqueline, and we get the first hint of trouble in paradise back home with Harrison, her younger man.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah, it's rationing up. And you – it's a little like hints of it only in this episode, but you see – but it's like now – It's clear they've got – they've made each other. Right. They each know what the other knows.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
They know what the other knows and now it's like they're set on a collision course.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Right. What is her recourse?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
That's what you think. He was focusing, right. He gets on her Instagram. He sees her son.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
He's really interesting, too. He was like sort of in season one, like plays this kind of goofy, guileless character.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And now he's this like stoic monster that we know has this like simmering.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Oh, right, right, right. They were intuiting that there might be something going on.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Right. And then when he says is like, what are you? Are you hiding or seeking? Yeah. What's the name of the episode? And it just like hits so hard.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
The gun just sitting there. Why the fuck did the guy talk to you?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
He is a bad security guard. He just leaves a gun sitting. By the way, it's not even just like on the desk.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Because he sees it from outside the shed. Right. That's a very conspicuous word.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Amazing. It's an insane twist on the Chekhov gun. It's the eternally recurring Chekhov's gun. It keeps coming, having more import. It takes a while. We know it's there. Then it's revealed. Then it gets now stolen.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
When he returns to dinner after having learned basically that the wave has arrived and the sort of shot lingers on his face trying to resettle himself at dinner and just the expression on his face is so good and telling.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Just waiting for the Bloody Mary to show up so you can, like, get right again.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
It's interesting. As we've been discussing, a lot happens in this episode. The gears are turning. The billiard balls are moving. And the Chekhovian gun has appeared and has made its way into the hands of one of the protagonists who's losing his mind. And it is very plotty, actually, in comparison to previous two seasons, particularly season one. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
He's bunny-raveting with some other, somebody on set.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
You're right. I bet you it's like the violence is not instrumental. It's going to be the denouement of some of the emotional carnage, right? And it's going to be the outcome of something as opposed to the thing that sets it in motion. What sets things into motion here are just the people and who they are and what they're afraid of. Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Jesus fucking Christ. All right, welcome Jason Isaacs to the White Lotus season three official companion podcast. Thanks very much.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah, it's really, it's a strange, like exciting for a song watching like a great man spiral, you know, watching the descent. So I was like, what in your own life have you drawn on to...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Those three in particular are suddenly going through some kind of, like, Greek mythical series of trials and tribulations. Right. Like, Micah's decided to put them through the wringer in this episode.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Is that what's going on? No, no, no. I'm going to get the answer. No, no. Ask a different version of an adjacent question, which is, so then was it fun to luxuriate in this fully formed, spiraling great man that Mike has created for you?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
They get sent to this other resort, and then they get there and they just see it's all full of old people. It's all full of retirees. Yeah, it's like retirees. Like, the first people they talk to are these women on, like, some kind of group tour of widows. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah. Do you think that the deal with Kenny was just like a one-time peccadillo that really was a favor to a friend?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Is this systemic with him, do you think, Isaac? It was like, I'm just curious.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah. This is like we were debating. I was like, what if he... What if he's a lovely guy who did a favor to a friend? Yeah, exactly.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
I was like, is that what we're meant to take away?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
In this episode, you get the call, the shit's going to hit the fan. I guess we can say that on the podcast.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Spies the gun sitting in the security station. So what do you think is going on there? What do you think Tim's intention is with the gun? Or is it just like- Absolutely to kill himself.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah, confirmed.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Another predictive point on your bingo card.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
By the way, also, the way the show kind of like lingers and then slowly reveals in every direction, it's all full of these old people, is both funny and then sort of – and then tragic for the characters because you realize that this is – they're in some – it's almost like they're in some kind of purgatory, right? Or they're also in the theme of like –
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Life, death, spiritualism, like the death part, like this is they're being reminded of their mortality. Like it's coming for you. Like no matter what you guys do, no matter how many victory tours you guys do, you're going to wind up at this pensioner's pool eventually. And your husbands are going to die.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
You're going to be like one of these two ladies that you are disgusted by basically because of what happened to them.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
All right. So thanks, of course, to our guests, Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook. And join us for the next episode. The White Lotus Podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media. This episode was hosted by Gia Tolentino and Josh Behrman. Natalia Winkleman is the managing producer. Our associate producers are Allison Haney, Anthony Puccillo, and Aaliyah Papes.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Sound design and mix by Ewan Leitrim-Ewan. At Campside Media, our executive producer is Josh Dean. For the HBO podcast team, our executive producer is Michael Gluckstadt, senior producer Allison Cohen-Zarokach, and producer Kenya Reyes. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And the horror is just getting old.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Right, life outside of the White Lotus and the world that you live in, the White Lotus back home as well.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Right. And I think it's kind of meant as it's like a purposeful look behind the curtain, right? Or like almost breaking of the fourth wall in some way. Like, by the way, here's the real. This is really what happens when you go on vacation. Right. Like in Thailand for most people and you're sort of at this place and there's real people and random people and it's sort of like whatever.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
But it is so... Almost unsettling, right? Even I was sort of like, well, we can't stay here.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
We've got to go. What are we going to do here?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Right. Exactly. I mean, right. That was they actually are experiencing something authentic.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
It's a little bit all quiet on the western front. I mean, they're kind of going down the alleyway and there's a little, little kid with a water gun and Jacqueline's like, oh, cute. And then the camera lingers on that kid's face and is like, oh, no. Then it's like revenge. The kid gets a whole gang and comes after them and, again, completely unseats them, right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
They're no longer in their sort of perfect poise and well-coiffed and all put together. They are thrown out of their element entirely.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
The other thing that kind of gets kicked into motion at the beginning of this is with Rick and Chelsea. And he says, like, OK, I got to go to Bangkok. And he has that encounter with his therapist, right, who's like, I would love to see you again. And I found this to be very affecting. I'm curious for your thoughts on this.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
You were like, that's the face my four-year-old makes when she's trying to get her way.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
I was like, the answer is yes. Somebody says, I want you to go on my fancy boat.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
I know. It's funny. There's this tremendous tension being built the whole time between the world that she inhabits, that she loves her husband for having built for her, that has its values that she believes in, and anything outside of that is sort of questionable. But we know what she doesn't know, which is that that is unraveling. That is a colossus of clay feet and it is about to disappear.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
We did. We did finally at last.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And so the more that she keeps repeating it over and over, what's important to her, what's important to her, You're bracing for her fall.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Right. There's no other potential culprit.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Because her sense of propriety and fear of strangers means that on a very fancy boat she wants to hide her purse somewhere.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
We got a real close up of Daddy's and Gorge Balls.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Oh, yeah. The morally neutral world of high finance.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
As opposed to whatever his grandfather was doing as governor of North Carolina during segregation, presumably. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
I've been in general kind of loving seeing the proud patriarch spiraling. Yes. Like a proud man coming undone, which is what starts happening through this whole episode. He reveals at one point sort of like his pedigree and how he raises a glass to his dead parents and grandparents. So they're not going to see his downfall.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Right. And also, like, the encounter in the lobby.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
I was like, oh, this is again what the show is about. This is what I think the whole series is about. This was I was sort of vindicating my thesis about season one, which is really boomeranging now in season three. And I was very struck by this because there's the same language is used.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
There's I think when Tanya first gets on Belinda's, you know, spa bed, she says something like, let go of your story.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
His Dirk Diggler prosthesis.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And then everybody screamed in the room. Yeah, yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And then every day you're born anew, right? And this is also that Buddhist language of atemporality and not having a narrative and so on. And so then that comes up here. And also, like, it kind of has even reflected the visual cue of, like, they wake up every morning, they wake up every morning. Is this going to be the morning where they're divorced from their past and future?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Because that's the whole thing with Buddhism. It's like pain resides in the past and the future with regret and anxiety. Right. And that's your story. So if you look over your story, then you're released from that.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And then I was just like, oh, this is really incredible because he's like using the huge architecture of like extremely detailed, fine grained human storytelling to get the point across that story is not the point.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
I'm, like, getting so—I can't even believe that at the beginning I was like, I don't know, maybe I'm like Walton Goggins.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Like, so hard inhabiting this. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And was also really thinking like, well, is he going to get a chance to get off? Is he going to escape the narrative that he is telling himself? And that's what's making him so unhappy.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
On the screen room and in the viewership.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
They got a rise out of us.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Right. I know I was wondering if at a certain point when they're talking about all that, if Tim is like, well, that's where I'm going to wind up. Like how much money can I get out of whatever accounts are still liquid and like disappear into the jungle here? A lot happens on the boat. That's where Rick reveals to Chelsea that the man who murdered my father owns the hotel.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And then she has the funny line from Princess Bride. She's like, is this like, you killed my father, prepare to die? My name is Inigo Montoya.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
never really can forgive himself for what he's done.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
I have a question about Frank, his monologue. Where did that come from?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
I might have mentioned a little bit when I was in Thailand, but I had the whole thesis before really knowing anything about season three, that season one was this kind of Buddhist allegory. All the characters, they're all in some form of pain. And so then now we're in season three where this now is about sort of Buddhism and spirituality and people examining their own suffering and death.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
I have a thematic question for you about... this season kind of as a representative of like the whole project of White Lotus as it were. So people come with this kind of spiritual seeking. A lot of the characters are there explicitly for that. And if they're not, then they wind up kind of realizing that they need to understand something about themselves.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And then they're in this context of Buddhism where a lot of the sort of like narrative is about anti-narrative. So it's this whole story of which the message is, There is no story, right? Even at the very end, the monk is saying, like, stories don't have to resolve. They don't need. That's not really the point.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
It's like a grandmaster kind of storytelling in order to tell people that, like, well, maybe the way you are thinking about story is self-defeating.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Yes, thanks. It's been great. Appreciate you guys doing it. G and I had a blast.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
The White Lotus Podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media. This episode was hosted by Gia Tolentino and Josh Behrman. Natalia Winkleman is the managing producer. Our associate producers are Allison Haney, Anthony Puccillo, and Aaliyah Papes. Sound design and mix by Ewan Leitrim-Ewan. At Campside Media, our executive producer is Josh Dean.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
For the HBO podcast team, our executive producer is Michael Gluckstadt, senior producer Allison Cohen-Zarokach, and producer Kenya Reyes. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Hello, this is Josh Behrman, the co-host with Gia Tolentino of the official White Lotus companion podcast for season three. And we are here with a bonus episode with Mike White. Mike is of course the creator of the show, but it's also worth noting that he is the writer and director and executive producer, which is not really common in television.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
So what's emerged is a TV show that's sort of like auteur film. I've known Mike for a long time. We've worked together and I think it's not a secret he doesn't really like to talk about his work that much, but we're gonna get a chance to do so and dive in. And so next we have Mike White.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Yeah. As is stated in the opening episode where Piper's listening to the Buddhist monk and he's like, identity is a prison. Did you have a sense when you're starting out who's going where or do you kind of find it along the way?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
I think we talked about how she calls it earlier on. She's like, I'll follow you. If it doesn't work now, I'll follow you.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Well, thank you for doing this. Yeah, this is going to be fun. We're deep in it, and so we're obviously super excited to talk to you about it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
The irony is that Saxon is trying to let Lachlan off the hook of what he had set him up at the beginning of the trip. Like, you follow me, do what I say. Then Lachlan misinterprets that and tragically throws Saxon into this state of recognition of his emptiness.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
By the way, yeah, like what kind of— Like some milk from the night before from Thailand. There's kind of a nice irony that it's the— First time he's going to listen to his dumb brother who's like, to be a man, you got to drink this protein shake, which his brother doesn't even believe anymore. And he's kind of lagging and is lost. And he says, I don't know anything anymore.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
So it's like his answer. I'll drink this like protein smoothie with the dregs of the pina colada. And then that gives him his kind of death vision.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
You figure it's the family and maybe they're actually standing around him or something, but then it kind of resolves into the monks and you can kind of see the silhouettes of their robes. It would have been completely different if Tim's own failures had led to the death of his son only and then also a secret that he either has to keep or reveal his incomplete failures.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
I know. So far, you've been asking the question at the top of the show that kicks it off and puts us into the mode. And often it was, who are you identifying with? Now I turn the tables back on you. It's all said and done. Who are you identifying with?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
It might be because like in maybe in the constellation of characters, Mike was thinking we need there's only room for one pure tragedy, which is the Rick and Chelsea story. Yeah. And to have another where they would maybe compete with each other.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Yeah. And then, you know, he's saying in that moment he's already he has the strength even before he encounters Lachlan maybe dying.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
I will say, for me, more affecting was actually the resolution of the three gal pals.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Yeah. Well, so the first thing that happens is in the wake-up sequence, they're going to maybe go get breakfast together, and Jacqueline goes and wakes up Lori to be like, I just want to apologize. So that was... a nice sentiment. I'm like, oh, okay, they're going to work this out.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Basically trying to, like, crank up the victory tour rhetoric machine again. They're like, well, let's just see if we can put a little kerosene into that.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Yeah, yeah, yeah. See if that hot balloon will fly.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Yeah, make it run again. And that's kind of where they're going. And then Kate is talking about in church we learn about, you know, this whole kind of like recycled homily.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
The garden has bloomed. Here we are.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
When she says I tried motherhood and that didn't do it for me, I was like, that's like a powerful, you know, like admission. Yeah. And so then she like reveals everything. She's like, in fact, it's time. We're here together. That in itself gives us meaning. And we can, as you say, she does what the other ones would ever be able to do, which is like bridge that gap between the different selves.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
She finds synthesis. Yes, exactly.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
I know. And I mean, to join you in the graduate seminar analysis. Yeah. I was thinking about sort of like in the original treatise that Rousseau writes, everybody kind of forgets one part of it is like civilization doesn't just like cause a moral or ethical kind of corruption, which is why he's like, let's go back to the state of nature. It's being in a world where you have to pretend.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
You have to have appearances. Your authentic self is left behind. It's like in the state of nature, you didn't have to pretend to be anything. You were just like, you know, in your tribal bands and you were living this authentic life. And so there was no mask. You didn't have a mask. And so the mask comes off and the real people are revealed and then they can finally like be themselves together.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
But they only can because they do in fact know their profound flaws and they can accept them.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
And I was like, oh, they get to be their authentic selves. And that's still basically what nobody else figured out how to do in the rest of the show.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Yeah, yeah. They turn back into their, like, sort of teen selves.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Slumber party. Right. Whether or not like there's no pretense to be had. Right. And there's no appearance to keep up. Like maybe, you know, Cameron gave Ethan and Harper a gift in season two by fooling around with one because it like throws everything off. Like Jacqueline might have actually accidentally prompted a real reckoning with the friends that wouldn't have otherwise happened.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Our avatars have had their tragic end on screen.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Obviously, I'm like sitting here thinking about Empire Strikes Back, Luke, I am your father. It's like among the grandest dramatic kind of turns that can happen. I mean, in the case of Star Wars.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
The revelation is purposeful, right, to kind of draw them closer. But in this case, the father... Does not reveal it. He's cryptic and maybe and he doesn't actually want to put that out there, which may offer like a completely different type of resolution. Right. For them.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
It's a strange bad planner.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Just hanging out with these like kind of, yeah, right, with the mini donuts. It doesn't make sense. It's bad situational awareness.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
I feel like some kind of like staff training would have told her to put aside Zion's session.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Yeah. I mean, yes, having been in the situation was like, I need to talk to my therapist right now. And I was like, definitely with him. And then he's over there just like sitting on a bench, like waiting in the middle of the hotel into which that scene then arrives, like basically his his tragic ending.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
He kind of has this, like, English patient moment where he's, like, carrying Chelsea's body through the— I know.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
I like that we came at that completely different— Yeah, yeah, yeah. Come from completely different angles. In theory, he's looking for help, but he's also just kind of— No, he's not looking for help.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
That's true. That's true. He's in grand gesture mourning mode.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
And waiting for the bullet in his back because then he knows he can join her and their eternal search for each other in the many lives hereafter. Which is—that's, I think, what you're meant to— See, it kind of comes back around. It turns again. We're like, oh, well, they're actually together now. They get to be together.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
And maybe since also old man Jim is dead, he can go find him and they can work things out later. They can all spend some time together as turtles or wherever they're going to be.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
He's like, I'll try this new character on. But I think we both agree that... Well, there's also a tragedy there. It's like, by the way, all the men succumb really easily to their urges. And I guess ultimately, ironically, Tim kind of gathers the strength to press beyond his vulnerabilities.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Well, I think my time on the Rick Walton Goggins train might have come to an end because I would not have been snapped back into revenge mode.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
She's going to go full Gary.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Barbara is going to show up somewhere on her fancy boat.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
No, no, no. I'm not Melinda. You have me mistaken for somebody else.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Speaking of, yes, Dick, why, we were wondering, doesn't she just say, porn chat, come on with me?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
We don't need to start a business.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Yeah, exactly. I would never have killed the killer of my father, or it turns out my father.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
That's nice shading on that moment for the character because in the moment I was reading it as almost this materialist argument that money immediately changes you and that she turns into Tanya as soon as she has money. But that's how it feels. That's the pinch in the moment. But now...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Chelsea says, stop thinking about the life you didn't have and look at the one you do have. And I feel like, especially in the moment, coming from that, like, beam of light entity who is giving you this incredible redemptive wisdom, I would have accepted it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Thinking it through and talking about it, I like this idea that, in fact, it is about her evolution of character. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
And for sure at the moment, I would have probably then vacillated and like fell backwards and like gone back and forth in that kind of torment. But no, in the moment, I would have been like, you're right, we're at breakfast. Let's just like get some, get these donuts and get out of here.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
And coming up in a bonus episode very soon, we'll be sitting down with White Lotus creator Mike White to talk about the entire series. So look out for that. It opens with like a dawn, right? The whole episode, and you kind of do the carousel of all the characters on their last day.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
So in that kind of round robin where we're seeing everybody again for the last time, maybe some of them forever for the last time, you have the monk from the monastery talking about, we wake up every day looking with anxiety, looking for resolution, looking for answers, and basically, what if there is no resolution?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
This is true to life. Your character also is like, get those lizards out of my room.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Thank you, Natasha, for coming on the show. That was nice chatting. It was fun to see you again.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Well. Belinda was in those streets. Yes. Yeah. She had also done the math on her son, Zion.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
That was really fun. Yeah, she's delightful.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
It's like, that's everybody's fantasy. It's not to buy a boat. It's not to buy a big house on the hill. It's just like to have time to do whatever you want. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
So many questions. If you keep looking for resolution, that causes suffering. So what if there is no resolution? Which is an interesting way to obviously open the episode where there is going to be some kind of resolution for this story. Right. But so then the question about it is sort of like, how are the characters going to be resolved?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Are the ones who think they need resolution actually going to be choosing the wrong path, which is ultimately what happens, right? And it's the ones who accept that there may not be a resolution that actually come out ahead, that come through unscathed.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
You need to man up and then I'll be with you.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
I know. Oh, she plays such the ingenue, but she knows exactly what she's doing.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
He does. And I feel—I mean, he seems pleased with himself, although I suspect— No, he's going to be unhappy his whole life. He's going to be—yeah, right. Yeah, he's like, this is not the way that I wanted to succeed.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Yeah, let's talk about Belinda and Zion.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
They have a whole—I was really enjoying their return to Gary's house.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
And they show up, and then Zion's like— Zion's crushing it. NBA baby. Yeah. It's like, let's just let the businessmen talk. And it turns out he's an incredible negotiator.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
And I'm Josh Behrman. And I'm feeling sad. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Five mil. That's the number he throws out. And then it was so satisfying when she leaves, you think it's genuine, and then in the hallway, she's like, no, no, no.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
We could kill him. And then you're like, oh, they're a team. That's very satisfying.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
I thought that was kind of great, though, in terms of... I know.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
I want her to take him with her.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
So it's like you realize in the moment, oh, no, it's happening. She's doing the same thing to him. My circumstances have changed. Now I'm rich. She's like, don't I get to just be rich for a minute?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
I don't want to go start a massage. And I'm like, yeah, that's true. Okay. But then she immediately takes on the values of the rich and is like, okay, I'll see
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
She starts speaking elliptically and then is like, and I can't ever see you again because she could instead just be like, why don't you come with me and we'll go on a world tour sex vacation.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
I know. I know. It's a different feeling from the other two finales. Yeah. Where everybody in both cases like kind of airport reunions. There's like the different kind of resolution. And here was a lot of bodies. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
It's like the minute you get some money, you're not the same.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Technical conversation about money laundering, logistics, and how does that work? What are the tax implications for Greg slash Gary?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Cut a third out of that right away from your 1099. Yeah, exactly. So it's more like three and a half million.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Right. Well, we've seen sort of Belinda's state of unease and kind of the struggle. So it's much more satisfying, I think, because we want her to win. And also, also this season, she's saying, oh, you know how to treat a broke down bitch. And like, can't I just get a break? You know, and so she's kind of in this beleaguered state.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
So it's earned the satisfaction to see her become a cunning, rich bitch and win.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Piper, who reveals at breakfast, she can hack it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
And her mother basically gives this like ethical rationale for being content with your station. She's like, we have it so good. And if we don't enjoy it, it's an offense to the people who will never live this way. Right. And she's like, and then that's like, that's sort of the capper on Piper's emotional reveal.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
She goes, but she reverts to, you know.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Yeah, it was melancholy, you know.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Also, while Piper's revealing that she can't, she's not going to be able to hack it at the monastery, then Papa Fernholz is like, oh, shit, I guess I got to poison her, too.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
I got to kill everybody except for little Lockie.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Yeah. By the way, why do they just have poison fruit, like, laying around? What if there were children? In the villa.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Dude, that place is so manicured, they would have chopped those poison— You think.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
If they're just—if children can be eating these fruits— Small complaint about the, like, the hotel management to leave all those poisonous fruits laying around. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
He doesn't have his phone. He doesn't know how powerful he is.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
He just got to guess. That's why it tastes so bad. He puts too much of the seeds in there.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
But I was also just like, you're such a fucking coward. I was like, this is what I was thinking in my head. Like, we're expecting like, Mukwan's guy talked a man up by just like, kind of being good at his job. And then this guy's like parading around like he's the king and he's... understand success and how to be the lion, the head of the pride.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
And then basically the first sign of trouble, he doesn't know what's really going to happen. He's like, okay, I'll just kill my whole family. Like, it's such a fucking cop-out. And so then I was... You know, sort of rooting for him when he was going to slap the death smoothie out of his kid's hand. Although, by the way, they had a little bit, so you'd figure they would have the runs.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
I know. For like plot purposes, the Chekhovian smoothie has to be left on the counter. I was really hoping, but towards the end, I wouldn't have seen this at all coming earlier in the season, that Saxon would emerge as the unlikely... Vulnerable. Like emotional star of the whole thing. He kind of almost gets there. He read the whole book. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Yeah, well, that's what you get when you tackle the season about death. Death.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
And now he's like, no. When he sheds a tear for Chelsea and Rick's reunion, then turns back to Chloe, and then turns out Chloe is like the hard-nosed... kind of like sexual transaction-based person, and he's turned off by that.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
About death being the escape.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Well, before that, they kind of go through the little snake pavilion before they get to the show. And you see him kind of communing with the snakes and having this, like, deep connection.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
But yeah, that would be my goal.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
He is stoned, but there's something else going on where he's having some kind of emotional attachment. And then when they get into the snake show, he has a freakout. He kind of turns and observes that there are other people just like watching this gleefully with popcorn. And I can't tell. What do you make of his motivation? What he says is, I just didn't want to see them be in pain.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
You know, like it's unfair to the snakes. And so and I was like, well. If that's really the case, then that's like quite a noble motive.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
I'd put my phone in the pouch. Yeah. Yes, I would. I'd take a deep breath and throw it right in the pouch. How about you?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Oh, he's acting out. Yeah. He can't free himself, so he's like, I may as well free these snakes. They're in cages.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Right. So then later, Chelsea says, so you released a bunch of venomous snakes earlier today. What do you think that's about? She's basically posing the kind of like therapy question to him. Like, why did you do this?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
And then what he says is. I felt bad for him.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Which I thought also that was like a very heavily freighted line that that is going to mean something in relation to his whole storyline. with the murder and his father and wherever he's going with his pal Frank that he calls, by the way. He's like his old buddy Frank. If you've got an old buddy Frank in Bangkok who you need to help take care of some things, then what is your background?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
It is making me wonder what kind of weird shit has he been into?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Oh, yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
But it is in keeping with the nature of the show, exploring Buddhism and the reincarnation.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
She's sort of meant to be the healer of him, right? He believes he cannot be healed. She believes that she can basically heal anybody. And then she shakes off this deadly lethal snake bite instantaneously. You know, is she the antidote, right, to the venom, whatever venom is coursing through him? I mean, this is the centerpiece of this episode in some way, right, is the snakes being unleashed.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Right. Well, Mike grew up religious. His father was a minister. He has all this biblical knowledge. knowledge in the back of his mind. And this is something we learned in the Look Back podcast. So you can listen to more about Mike's biblical and religious background in that show. But also, there is maybe just the idea of like, there is the pent up chaos in the cage.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
And to some degree, the show itself is always about like, what happens if you open the cage, right? And what happens if the snakes come out and Their fangs are bared. What is the energy that is unleashed? This would be like if there was like the Werner Herzog, you know, commentary would be like, it is the chaos of the jungle. And all of life's agonies are slithering through the grass.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Like that's, I think, what the energy of the snakes represents.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Right. The knowledge is the agony, right? That is, it's like you can't put the apple back on the tree. Yeah. And it's what causes monkey mind. It is what keeps you up at night and you have to take lorazepam. It's what makes you question your choices in the past and which way did you wind up relative to your high school girlfriends.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
And I hadn't thought of it, but the lotus eaters, they are eating their magic lotus petals or flowers or whatever that's like numbing them to the world. And they don't have to worry about the knowledge of what is going on out there.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Right, right. That's your own form of therapy is just having time to read a nice book. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
It's interesting that your character comes in and it's like, as you say, sort of like the Debbie Downer, but also immediately very open and vulnerable. Like at first, in the first episode, you're like, why are these two together? I don't get it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
But by the time of the therapy sessions where you see there's something like right beneath the surface that's available and vulnerable, I was just sort of like really struck by that.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
I felt that, too, where it's an anxiety dream, but there's also something comforting about it. It's like, well, we're doomed, but we're together. Right. That was that was like the atmospherics of the dream. And then when she wakes up, she relates it to the whole family as if she's not disturbed. Right. It's up for the viewer. We know that this is a bad omen.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
In episode three, the snakes, you decide that the evil things need to be free and release the snakes. What do you think was going through Rick's head to release the snakes? I have a thought, but I'm curious.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
You know, the tsunami, the coming tsunami, which is coming for them. But she doesn't realize it yet. So for her, it was actually maybe a dream of comfort.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Do you think there was a little death wish subconscious in there under it? It was also like, oh, I can't live this way anymore.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
I'm still feeling it. I know. We're flushed.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Oh, my God. His drip was incredible. Jacked the man is. And he was wearing these beautiful oversized, like, wide pleated pants.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Yeah. Some little chest exposed.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
You faced the wave.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
I like that it's a technical answer. We need to have a separate episode where you do charts for all the characters and work out all the relationships that way. We have been having a debate over here about how we think Chelsea and Rick actually met. Do you have a sense of where they met? We asked Goggins as well.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
He said, he had a whole scenario in his head. They're in a bar somewhere, kind of like traveling. And then Chelsea comes up and sees like, aha, here's something that I can apply my open heart to. And he's resistant and then she's persistent.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Right, right. Yeah, he's in trouble. He's in trouble. And then Lachlan has planted this idea with his tsunami videos, which then we'd see him showing ones like, look at this guy just – He doesn't even move. He doesn't even try to run away.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
That sounds like a lot of work.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
But okay, I'm relenting.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Well, it is something we've been talking also as we're watching the episodes. At the beginning, you're sort of like... why are these two together? What's their deal? He's such a sour puss and she's, you know, like a ray of sunshine. And then, but it quickly materializes into this very genuine, tender, heartfelt relationship.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
This is her duty and her destiny.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
That's beautiful.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
The other thing that happens in the episode is the snakes.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Right. She has her own caged cobra in Rick. Yeah. Like that's what she has done.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Like, no, his hood is up. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
So fun.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Well, that was delightful.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
I like how she went deep with this technical astrological read. And then you said, well, where did that come from? She said, well, I supplied that information so I could get an accurate read.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
All right. Well, thanks for listening and we will see you next time.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
I had that same thought, too. I thought, oh, well, maybe he's accepting his fate, basically. I was like, I can't do anything about it. I'm no longer in control. And a lot of the show in general is about what you can control and can't control. And depositing your electronics in the bag is the symbolic release of control. Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Because we believe our control is now mediated through our devices and everything. And so, yeah, I kind of felt like he was watching the wave come for him.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
It could be simultaneous, like oscillating, instant of like vibrating back and forth in his mind. He has the monkey mind of like, maybe if I pretend it'll go away, it'll go away. And maybe it's just coming for me and there's nothing I can do.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Exactly. He's like, I don't take drugs. By the end, now he winds up as like a drug addict. All of a sudden, he's like fiending.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Yes, yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
I know. I thought that was very revealing, actually, that particular encounter because, yes, he takes him outside. And it's actually meant for self-preservation to kind of distract Saxon and not let the cat out of the bag. And he says, OK, instead, I'm going to distract him by giving him some validation and some fatherly advice. And I was like, oh, only in this moment? Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Like, this is what it takes for you to, like, say something nice? Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Yeah, exactly.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
As journalists. Everybody else probably has anxiety about various other things in this episode, but we were both like— Is she going to get this interview?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
She's not going to get the interview. She's not. I'm with the dad on this one. This has happened to me before. You've got to book that ahead of time.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
And I'm Josh Barrowman.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Right, right. Her self-awareness within her family disappears in relation to the rest of the world. And they're like, well, maybe we can accommodate you, basically. We'll see. The guy's a monk.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Oh, right. That was an interesting conversation because Victoria is like, well, but are they from a good family?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Yeah, they own their own yacht. They're rich.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Whatever this external entity is, like how does it relate to good values, good family, which really means how does it reflect our family, you know? And that's her immediate response to the whole concept of even like basically fraternizing with anybody else in the resort.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Next we have Belinda.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
I hope you have good dreams of me, and I will have good dreams of you.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
He's revealing his amorous intentions. I know. It is moving forward. And then she also, at the dinner, spots Gary slash Greg. Goes over to the table and says, don't I know you?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
When she's walking up to the table, he definitely recognizes her. Yeah. But not before.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Because you see it on his face. It kind of lingers on him. And then once she says Tanya's name. Then he realizes he's squirming in his chair.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Right. That's true. That's a long apprenticeship. That's quite an internal training program that the White Lotus management has set up. That you can just go to another installation at the hotel for three months.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
We see the completion of the cycle of the gossip geometry.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
I know. This is like the moment I dread.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
I mean, we can show our cards here.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Yeah, it would be a little challenging. That would really stress me.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Yeah. Also, the way that conversation unfolds where Jacqueline starts, actually by making this interesting observation, right, where they're talking about kind of religion as a self, and then she says, I don't know, Christianity, basically the monotheistic religions are man fights the battle for good and evil.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
I was like, oh, this is going to be an interesting exploration of some spiritual notion. They're in this Buddhist country. I thought that's where it's going. And then Kate says, what's wrong with that? I'm a woman and I love church. And then I'm like, huh, interesting.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Yes, right. She says that, too.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Yeah, that's an easy one. My wellness goal would be and is always to... Fight the monkey mind. Like the serenity aspect. Serenity is your goal. Meditation, the stillness. I have a hard time. My mind's always racing. So the monkey mind, although it seems like it would be hard at the White Lotus because the place is full of these malevolent macaques wearing their fangs off camera.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Interesting. I— obviously the aesthetics of politics are persuasive and powerful. I actually was kind of ruminating on whether there was an intention to sort of state how politics itself has now become a belief system since it's become itself so overpowering, right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
And, you know, because you're in the setting where they're on this, they're spiritual seeking, they're in this kind of place where you have your serenity as a wellness goal, and explicitly there's all this Buddhist statuary around everything. And People are talking about their values, right? They're talking all the time, like, they have good values, whatever.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
And now it's like politics has become its own religion, basically, right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
I took it almost like it's like she's an apostate, like a heretic. Right. Right. Like it's actually superseding whatever spiritualism is going on in this, like in the retreat. And it comes into the conversation through religion. Right. And I'm like, they could argue about religion probably all dinner. And that's fine. But the minute she says Trump, it's like, oh, no, you're a heretic.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
You know, these lifestyle choices will be viewed as like selfish, insular, closed off.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Ooh, I can feel it. Right, right. It would make the others basically question all of her motivations on making the same choices that they do.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
They wind up in this snake show. The snake show.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
He shows up as the most mysterious character in some way because there's some deep, dark past. And then his being revealed most easily. Everybody's masks are going to come down, right, as we think about the symbolic aspect of the performative mask in the actual dinner performance. And his mask is—we're getting it—
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Right. Yeah, exactly.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Right. That's right. That's right. He's the truth teller.