Josh Bearman

Yeah, I think it's also maybe a little kind of tragic that she's face down in the water, he's face up. He gets a little bit of a sort of like beatific moment there, but should they have been together? Would it be like too obvious and super weird? Yeah. Or just kind of like... Human version of, like, those sea otters that float together, like, holding hands at the Monterey Bay Aquarium.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Except, like, bleeding out.

Yeah.

I wonder now. So let's say that they are together in the next life, as she says, but she was in the final moments of this life confused and annoyed. Like, what's Rick doing? So is it going to be, like, in the next life, they'll be like... In Beetlejuice, she'll be like, what were you thinking? She'll be haranguing him when they're in the waiting room to get to go be turtles or whatever. Yeah.

She's going to be like, come on, dude, we were just, why did we even come back to the hotel?

We shouldn't have even been at breakfast.

Well, she's happy. She's like, yeah, I got my guy. He's making his way up the ranks. He's got his shades on. But you see that he has succeeded, but now has to live with himself as a person he didn't want to be for the rest of his life. So he did not get a happy ending. He's actually... He's created a new kind of prison of identity for himself.

I would definitely say that in general, yeah, the season is positing a philosophical statement about the gap between, like identity is a projection, right, of what you think you're supposed to be, but who are you actually, right? What are your values and what are you, like you are your deeds, right, and your values, basically.

All the things that people think you are or you think you are, like I'm a successful lawyer or I'm this or I'm a mother or I'm a, I'm an Asian woman who wants to get railed by these – by like a series of men from the internet. Like that's actually what's so profound about Frank's insane monologue is because he has closed the gap on his – like himself and like ideas about projected identity.

And there's like he's – As you just pointed out, like he is completely at peace and at home with that. And he has no internal friction about who he is. And he knows exactly. And he's unafraid even to say it, right? There's no fear of who he is. And whereas everybody else like has some fear, right? And so then it's a question of to what degree do people overcome the fears about their identity?

To what degree do they even like heave that identity overboard and kind of start anew like Saxon?

Yeah. The idea of like your identity is not any of the things that you think it is. When all of our characters enter the White Lotus for the week, right, they would list all the things that actually are not who you are.

Yeah. Yeah. And now we get to talk to Amy Lou Wood. Welcome, Amy Lou Wood, to the bonus episode of the White Lotus official podcast.

Hello. Nice to see you.

Well, I mean, in a way it is.

So we're hearing this after the finale is aired. Do you know what happens? Can I spoil it for you?

Who for a season four should shoot like multiple endings like the Clue movie.

I don't know what that means.

That would be characteristically diabolical for Mike.

Well, at what point did you find out? So obviously, this is you're talking about the final, you know, shooting day. I don't know if you shot this on the last day, but when did you find out that you were going to be one of the bodies?

You must be in.

It's always magic hour.

Oh, my God.

The spycraft involved.

I know.

I can live my life if Chelsea lives. She must go on.

Well, to that point, I mean, there's that kind of nice little kind of small soliloquy. And Chelsea says like, well, I'm hope and he's darkness and one of us will win. It's a battle. But then darkness won. And I was sad about that. That made me genuinely sad.

Ooh, so that's my... Okay, so that was one of my questions, because I was wondering, like, oh, well, wait, did I have it, like, misunderstood? Was Rick a lost cause and she should have left, right? That was one of my questions, and I wonder if you contemplated that.

Yeah. Well, I was thinking about your response to kind of the Buddhist treatise about season one. You're like, well, all stories are in some way about needs. But I think what's actually different in this case, the point is, in fact, that all those needs are irrelevant. Right. So that. Because the whole idea is like laying down this kind of Buddhist foundation for the story.

A reciprocal, right.

To that point, I think also it's interesting because... The moment with Saxon, I had sort of thought like, well, she could see that there is a possibility here, but then is afraid of it because of just loyalty to Rick. But your sort of emotional explanation is interesting that she was not even sure that she would know how to sort of enter into what Saxon is ready for.

And that's this kind of strange irony that Saxon is suddenly now they're ready to receive her message and Rick isn't. And so they could have had, like in some way, her light and energy might have found more fertile ground with Saxon.

It's like everything else that everybody is saying is basically irrelevant, and only what's relevant is how you look past all those needs and sort of discover something. Because in a traditional storytelling, you'd have the need set something into motion, and then the plot gets resolved. And then as we see now in season three, the resolution of season three entails this –

kind of overture with the monk saying, the attempt for resolution is also causing you suffering. So what if there is no resolution, right? And what if the story doesn't need to be resolved and you don't need to have anxiety seeking resolution all the time?

Thank you.

And season two, it does feel like pretty distinct because it is this bedroom farce where it's about how to actually manage your needs in daily life with the transformation of the sexual politics of the foursome And there's sort of like a trade of insight and wisdom in that process. And so in that case, those characters are learning how to manage their selves and their identity in their daily life.

Whereas season one and three were about sort of escaping the needs of your daily life.

Although Laughlin basically develops a belief system along the way that – I mean he's the one that almost intuits the message when he says to Saxon, what if life is just a test to see if you can become a better person?

Yeah. It's interesting also because then, I mean, I would say we don't know where Saxon's belief system is going to wind up, but he's now sort of primed to have a belief system. And, of course, he is who Lachlan is reacting against when he's trying to impress on him his idea of alpha male manhood and dominance, all of which we now suspect that's actually not his true identity. Yeah.

I want Saxon to come back because I want to see what that actual—where his belief system takes him.

But, yeah, Chelsea— strong belief system that permeates the whole show, I would say.

And I'm Josh Bearman.

Frank is like – he's achieved some kind of like supersedatory state of like I exist at all identities simultaneously. I'm a kaleidoscopic identity. I'm all these different ones in my weird role play and in life. And so he's completely – he snaps back to being at peace instantaneously, which, I mean, we're kind of joking.

But also because that was such a bombshell and almost probably the weirdest thing that anybody will see on TV – Yeah, 100%. This year, but also quite profound, right? Surprisingly profound, too. And then where he winds up, even though he's a side character, I think is quite meaningful.

I like how we decided that Frank is the most enlightened being in the entire season.

Yeah.

It's like, like perhaps... She comes back down to earth. She floats back down gently.

My big question actually is like, are these seasons each about something different or are they all about sort of some version of the same thing?

I feel like the other, this is more subtle, but the other character who escapes the prison, as it were, is Laurie. And then by extension, she offers some of that to Kate and Jacqueline by virtue of her little speech that resets their whole relationship, right? At the beginning, we realize that she's the unhappy one. They're on the victory tour, but she's unhappy.

And then at the end, though, she has some kind of... We don't actually even see it. It's funny. It's interesting because it's like... Her big epiphany comes from having gone to the fights out of frustration, fooling around with Alexi, climbing out the window, running sort of walk of shame, you know, with her ass hanging out.

And then she just wakes up the next morning with a whole new thought, which is like, in fact— None of this matters. None of what we're saying matters. All of our frustrations don't matter. Whatever my failures are, all my beliefs, nothing did anything for me other than time. The things that happen that unfold in our lives together make us who we are. There's no sort of overarching thing.

We started off early on talking about my whole kind of like my special private thesis about season one, which is that it wasn't about wealth or money or privilege, that it was actually this story that essentially explored Buddhist ideas of suffering and happiness. And then, of course, now... That's the explicit exploration here.

It's its own sort of like Zen meditative thing. kind of mode of thinking. And then she just kind of lays that on everybody and it's like a magic, it's like a spell, right? It's like she makes an incantation and their whole, their lives together are completely changed, yeah.

It's an internal happiness. I mean, it's like they don't, as you say, that's a nice way of putting it, like the mandatory happiness that's expected in general in life and sort of like comparatively in social circles and so on. When somebody really opens up to you suddenly and is like, I've been unhappy, there's a real chance that one of your friends will like recoil and never speak to you again.

Like it's hard, you know, people sometimes don't want to be around that. And so for them to be able to accept that, in fact, they might all have their different unhappinesses and they don't have to be on a victory tour and they can sit there together. Is very nice. And there's this additional kind of layer of what you're saying, maybe, in that what she says, what she attributes it to is time.

And so for women in middle age, we're also part of their self-doubt is like the pending invisibility of older womanhood. And time is your foe, right, in that case. But then she's like, no, maybe time is actually... It's a gift that we've been given. And we have now time, you know, under our belt.

And that's what allows us to be able to sit here with whatever our emotions are and have that happiness be internal. Youth is wasted on the young. It's the pithiest statement about all of the human condition.

Right. He's like, OK, I am now your pupil teacher and give me your lesson. He's like, maybe if it entails sex, great. But also I'll take the books.

And then Jason Statham has to come and get it back.

Yeah. Yeah. It seems like just from a pure negotiating position, he made an error. What do you mean? Setting it too low? Yeah.

He's like, maybe I can get by basically scot-free here.

How about 5 million? Yeah.

But she's taking a moral position when she – Bolts from the party. She's saying no. So she's also saying, I'm going to resist this. It's not fair. Would you take the money?

That's a good point. Yeah, exactly. Right. She's holding the cards.

Right. I wonder, is it like Cash App or Venmo? I know.

I have a finder's fee.

Someone snatches it. Identical briefcase. It's a mix up or is it?

Well, it's interesting because the whole episode is set up with the monk saying violence exists in all of us, right? And that's like sort of the overture of the episode is that VO over...

Walton Goggins and then it's kind of playing through and then it's reinforced at the fight which of course is this display of violence and then it was kind of really sad on that date right before they get to the fight when she's like oh I thought you were more ambitious when he's saying like basically I'm a pacifist and I don't want to hurt people and she's like oh are you a beta cuck that wants to watch while your mom fucks your dad or something like

Right.

I know. And the cabinet also is a little bit like a metaphor for, you know, depending on where the gun is, it's like, how's it going to get used, right? There's like some motivation for the gun to get used in all these different ways with each of the characters.

Right. I know.

Yeah, I know.

He's thrown off by the fact that they somehow have not prepped their cover story at all. Yeah. And they get in there, and then she's like, what movies have you seen of mine? And what movies have I made? I don't know. Action movies. It's good scripted improv.

It's funny, but I was thinking, these two guys are on this like... you know, deception operation to sneak in to one of the richest men in Thailand's house and maybe kill him. Yeah, this is like a Jason Bourne movie.

Yeah, an exit strategy. They should have had this whole thing prepped out. Like, what's even, what are we doing here?

I do. Yeah, I like how, I mean, Frank... The minute he takes a sip of whiskey, he's, like, restored to his, like, charming self. He's got a sparkle in his eye and a wink and a smile.

Yeah. It's like Peter Pan meets MC Hammer and some Pippin. And meanwhile now, Rick and Jim have gone off into the study to kind of just chat about business, but which is cover for Rick trying to figure out, like, do I need to kill my lifelong sort of nemesis in my mind?

Well, it's all coming to the surface.

Seems you've had quite a life.

What else? Then he's an urban cowboy.

Yeah, in a crop top mesh outfit. Yeah, it's giving Bushwick.

Mm-hmm.

With a cowboy hat. Yeah. And he's in Silence of the Lambs. He's in a million things. He's all over the place. He's in The Leftovers. And he's in Bad Monkey. He's the dad in Bad Monkey also. Now he's playing like the sinister figure, but he's also so kind of frail and meek. He's old. He's really old.

Yeah.

It is a strange encounter because is there something – is some of the air being taken out of the balloon by virtue of the fact that the Bet Noir, the big kind of bad guy in Rick's mind, is actually so weak and frail? Yeah. And doesn't have any menace because obviously he backs off because he's like ultimately also not a killer. The episode's called Killer Instinct.

It starts with this overture about violence. Rick realizes in the moment he's not a killer. He pulls out his gun. But that's – He can't even hit him. He can't even hit him. And that's because he's frail. But so I was wondering like if there was some menace and he knew – and in fact he encountered part of what he expected and still walked away, would that be sort of a more complex –

And also the kind of visual leitmotif that starts at the beginning and is running through the whole thing is the fight. You see the slow motion sequence of like some kind of prayer ritual at the beginning of the fight. Violence does spiritual harm to victims.

He does.

Oh, my God. Right. He celebrates. Yeah. He turns the tables. That's a good point. It's like this guy had power over him and suddenly now he has the power and perhaps that's enough to just like completely dispel the illusion.

I know. I know. Me too. It's a hard one. I know. It's going to be a tough fight back. And then they go off and party and he's immediately already got... Oh, my God.

Yeah. And then he's got a crack pipe.

Right. And he's like, let's go big. It's Bangkok. One night. And then eventually, of course, they take it to the hotel room and Rick is just sitting on the couch crying. kind of observing, he's not really engaging in the way, like, Frank is like, okay, this is my, I'm back in my old self. Yeah, exactly. And Walton, Rick, just is kind of sitting there with a smile on his face, right?

He's got this, like, slight beatific smile where, like, he's at peace.

We're still pulling for them. We're going to make it. I know, they're both, they just need to be reunited.

Oh, yeah. Well, they're soulmates. They're soulmates. And she's going to follow him to the next life and heal him there if she has to.

The battle of hope and pain.

Right. That's true. She has, like, now, like, their reunion is a potential pure one. Yeah. But I'm with you. I kind of wanted, like, her and Saxon. Because also that's, like, this separate, tiny, weird, little, essentially, rom-com, right? If you just isolate that story, it's like, he's the devilish cat and she's the plucky heroine and she wants nothing to do with him.

And then they realize that, like, they're enemies to lovers. And then, like, they have this moment where she could actually realize the full potential that she's not able to with Rick. And then perhaps by so doing, like, that elevates her power even more. Exactly. And then she, like, brings that back to Rick. That's exactly what I'm thinking.

So it's transitioned from a lot of the rest of the season is the monkeys in the forest, which is either both monkey mind and also the threat of kind of they're bearing their fangs sometimes. But now here is like... Humans fighting and personal violence and then the voiceover, the monk about violence. And so then you kind of know that that's what this is going to be about.

Well, I mean, the women are all at sort of like midlife crisis age. And so it's like a classic setup. I mean, I feel like it is most beautifully demonstrated with an incredible flair when they wind up at the pool, which is full of the old people. And they're like, this is disgusting. This is the future. It's like the old lady in the bathtub in The Shining. Yeah.

So they recoil from that and go back into the self-preservation mode, which I hadn't really thought about this, that their encounter with that kind of like immutable future puts their guard back up, you know, with each other.

Right. I mean, in midlife crisis, right, it's a massive challenge and destabilizing and people kind of like sometimes don't recover, but it's also a chance for transformation. And you can sort of like reset your entire sense of yourself. And that's kind of the opportunity that's being put in front of many of the characters here. Right. And that's the bigger test.

In this episode, there were like a lot of little tests. There's like these more moral ethical tests, but then there's like sort of a bigger test. Right. Where am I going?

Are you going to wear the mask or not? Yeah, exactly. Are you going to go to the grave with your mask on?

Yeah.

All right. Well, welcome, John Grice, to the Season 3 companion podcast to White Lotus. Thank you. Thank you so much.

This is where, yeah, it's most visible.

But... Well, that kind of that aligns with how we have been kind of systematically second guessing Gary slash Greg, if indeed either of those are his names. Did he even work with the Bureau of Land Management? Was this all like an elaborate ruse to find a mark from the beginning? Right.

And Lori sort of says what she's finally thinking and then they all start trading kind of. their real beliefs about each other. So the masks have all come down now, right? So the mask that was being worn when they were in the first episode at dinner and talking about how they all had been one person and it's a mirror. They're mirrors of each other.

It's a victory to our lives rock now. It's the mask is down and the real person is there. And those three real people actually have these long grievances with each other.

Thank you.

Thank you. Arch Arch Arch Arch Arch Arch

Yeah.

Right. Whatever she says. Right. You're pretending your life is great and you're selfish and vain. Selfish and vain.

There's a funny moment in the three-way finger pointing at the dinner where Laurie kind of throws Jacqueline under the bus by reminding or actually revealing the news to Kate that Jacqueline and her husband were flirting at her wedding.

And then Kate's just like, what? Did that happen?

What are you talking about?

Oh, right. Yes. And you think you're the victim.

She's saying it in a cruel way, but it's the kind of thing that the monk would also say. Right. Like, you chose the path. You took those steps. Why did you do that? What does that mean?

Right. She's like, if you made those choices, then accept them and try not to. Right.

Right. She's like, quit your yapping about it. The monk would be like, just try not to suffer if that's the choice you've made and accept it or whatever.

And then, of course, they're sitting there and Fabian, the hotel manager, has decided that this is his big night to shine. And he sits down and sings a ballad of his own devising about...

Yeah, exactly. Heimweh. Nostalgia for the homeland.

That's right. That's a good point. Fabian so far is the actual hero of the story. Yeah. He's the one who's making a change.

But it's interesting. So then, like, Laurie runs off to go to the fight. She's like, ah, fuck this. And then winds up in a tryst with Alexi. And then he's like, I take that up. Yeah, exactly. My mommy. And then, oh, no, it turns out to be transactional where, like, she's getting the authentic experience of, like, okay, fine, I'm going to run to the Muay Thai fight and go home with this rando.

And then he's like – You take cash out?

Venmo? PayPal? Cash out? Yeah, I just need only $10,000. She's like, oh, no, has to flee out the window.

But maybe that is the authentic experience. She had the full authentic experience of, like, thinking you're having an authentic experience traveling, getting scammed.

Yeah, right, right. Yeah, exactly. Is that to be crazy? Yeah, right.

Oh, yeah. But here's my thing.

Right. Who knows? Also, that jewelry doesn't seem that expensive. I know. I know.

I know. That was a good hustle at the door. That was a good other woman hustle. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So then the party. There's a party over at Gary's. He's invited Belinda and her son Zion.

I know. I know. She's like sort of a new Tanya. Yeah, where she is her kind of like drugged out kind of daffiness is the like purposeful but kind of accidental to the story comic relief.

And I'm Josh Behrman.

Yeah. I know. She's like, I'm praying that Jesus can save her from the Buddhists. Yeah.

She's trying to help out this woman.

Yeah. But then also at the party there is Saxon, Chelsea, and Chloe. First, Saxon is talking to his dad and basically says, like, what's going on? Because if your life is falling apart, that means mine is because I have no identity. I've just patterned myself after you. I put all my eggs in your basket. Yes.

Saxon goes even further and he says, I have no identity. Basically, I am. And he's kind of saying he's an empty vessel. And so as the party's going on, he then, having revealed this to his father, is kind of wandering around with that new awareness. He says what Walton Goggins says, too, that they're both these empty vessels for different reasons.

Like Walton feels like his cup could never be filled. Saxon is like, I've chosen to have no identity, basically. So then you're like, aha, what is he going to be filled with? Like, what is going to happen? Then he goes to the party and he sits down with Chelsea and asks her, you know, why are you even with this old dude anyhow? He's a rich old guy.

And she explains and quite meaningfully is like, He has this sadness.

Which is also kind of a big theme of the whole show, right? Right.

The enforcer? The enforcer. And then the executor.

Yeah.

And then also, by the way, while they're sitting there, he's watching from afar and his dad is over there like all sloppy drunk in his kind of spiral and he's seeing That there's something wrong there. And that's also, I think, pushing him internally to be like, am I open to the message of this woman here who I completely dismissed?

Yes, right. Yeah, exactly. He's like finally like ready to dig a little bit. Well, Chloe shows up and invites him into their sexual scenario.

Right.

Yeah. I liked the Oedipal personal psychological connection. like variant on being cuckolded. I was like, that was an interesting kind of, yeah.

Right. Well, then when it gets into the notary, we're like, maybe it was an executor.

You know what I mean? He's just so vanilla that he has never really I thought about – no, it's not possible. It's exposure to porn. It's not possible.

Yeah, the sequel is the executor of the will of whoever was enforced. Yes.

I know. Actually. I know. That was like it's like almost like a candlelit scene.

She's in her like cap sleeve kind of like prairie dress again. She looks like Kelly McGillis in Witness. Yeah. Like in the barn together. Yeah. And and yeah. And then he's like, what if I just stayed here with you? And then she freaks out and leaves. She takes her hand off of his leg. Yeah.

She's like, maybe I've pushed this too far. Like, what's why? What do you think is her fear there? Why does she recall?

Has to come and make sure. Yeah. I feel like in the plot of The Notary, I'm assuming that what happens is the notary's giant big physical book of signatures gets stolen.

Right. Right. It's interesting that, like, Saxon is so certain of who he is, right, and is telling Lachlan, you can be looked at just like me, basically. And then Saxon is even more destabilized now and is seeking his identity, which we see when he and Chelsea are walking home and they go back to her room and they're sitting on the bed.

And it's a quiet scene, but then I didn't even quite catch it until almost it was over that basically... He says, I'm ready. I'm now willing. Like what Rick can't do, which is like receive her message. Now Saxon is sitting there saying like, I'm ready. I'm here for you. I will take your message. And then she freaks out because she's like, oh, this could go the wrong way.

What, that's it?

Now they're reaping. Now they have to reap.

And then there's this kind of astonishing encounter because Piper goes in, she sees the monk, and... She's crying. She finally has a real emotional moment where you kind of see like for all of her sweater set perfectly kind of a bejeweled southern daughter self. She's a person that is troubled and there's nobody in her world that would ever be able to speak to her the way that the monk does.

Right. I would have said at the beginning that Tim is in the most trouble.

Yeah. So I found this whole scene to be... I mean, first of all, it hits him so hard. He's like... never heard basically anybody say anything like this to him. There's nobody in his world that could ever articulate anything outside of the expectations and judgment and the values and all the stuff that he's grown up with and the life of the patriarch of the Southern family that you know so well.

But now, Saxon. It's definitely Saxon. He's in trouble. His world has been rocked.

And so suddenly, a new set of words arrives, like a completely new idea, and he's shaken, basically, by this notion. And it's like the monk talks about how... People come from America and the West in general, presumably, and their sort of way of life is built around indulging the self and ego and self-preservation and so on.

And so they are unable, basically, to sort of see through the forest until they get to Thailand, and that's what brings so many people here.

Right. I mean, what he's suggesting, the monk, to Timothy is that Piper's right. You can't just go for a week and go back and you're changed. You do have to stay there for a year. You do have to work at it. You do have to do what Lachlan suggests life is about, which is like a test to become a better person. That is the whole point.

Right.

Right. I mean, I think he becomes less afraid to die. Right. So at the beginning, he's afraid. End of last episode, he's got the gun to his head and then he gets interrupted. Then in this episode, he's imagining it, but he can't imagine it. It seems too difficult and it's painful. And like what happens afterwards? And then the monk tells him that death is a happy return.

That's what he says at the very beginning. All right. So let's get into this episode, which is called Denials. And as always, it's written and directed by Mike White. And later in this episode, we'll be talking to Patrick Schwarzenegger, a.k.a. Saxon, and Leslie Bibb, who plays Kate. In general, the episode sort of gets into that's the morning after.

When we die, there's no more suffering. It's like coming home. And to Tim, like that feeling of like, oh, right, it's just that simple. Like, I don't need to be afraid. Death has a happy return. And that seems to be like how he leaves the monastery kind of in this new frame of mind.

legitimate, you know? He's the real deal. He's the real deal, yeah.

Yes. Yeah. Right. Where he's no longer afraid. He's like, it's a mercy killing. And then I'm out. It's coming home. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Yeah, I will say. So I'm wondering now, I'm feeling this incredible kinship with Rick in general, but I don't quite understand. Now that the mission is getting closer, like what could possibly happen that would resolve this for him, that would make him different?

Right, right. I know it is a little bit of a strange mission that he has set out on. I mean, I don't think he knows exactly what he wants to do.

Right. He's only going to have his 10 minutes. Yeah, yeah.

When it was sort of a little bit vague in the distance, I was like, oh, yeah, right. He just needs to go back and, like, confront what happened to him. And then he'll come through, you know, anew in some way, even though that's impossible. And the fact that it's a fool's errand is becoming, to me, more apparent the closer it gets.

Because now he's there and he's in the house and he's going to go talk to the guy.

It's like the many walks of shame, right, that intersect and then throw these sets of relationships into some tumult. This is like Saturday night, Sunday morning, you know, to some degree. It's like the ecstasy of Saturday night and then the reckoning of Sunday morning, which, by the way, I feel even just watching it, I was like, oh, yeah, right, the morning episode. Always comes. What?

I'm really with this idea, but it's like, By the way, whatever happens, I'm going to be floored by it. I can already tell. I was almost going to start crying when you were just describing what you think he thinks is going to happen. I was like, oh, my God, that would be so beautiful if that happens.

To what extent are you out of this life? What if he falls off the wagon? You know, you know.

Right.

I just want to also note that in our many, many iterations now of Chekhov's gun, Guy Talk has snuck back in the villa and retrieved the gun. It's like this gun has changed hands. It's appeared. It's reappeared. It's been hidden. And like all these different things have happened with the gun.

And so there is some kind of like incredible three card Monty going on with the plotting of like, well, where's this gun? How's it going to get used? How's it going to wind up? Who's after who? And that's sort of culminating in what is actually happening at the very end of the episode where Gary, who has told Chloe that he knows that she fucked one of the brothers.

And he's maybe into it. Or he's just he's like so seems so sort of jaded and disconnected from life because he's not the guy that met Tanya. in season one at all anymore. And so like, what happened to him? And is he into it or is he just plotting to kill somebody? Is he trying to get, I mean, he invites Belinda to come so that he can maybe kill her. Right.

That pool.

And and so that's sort of the episode ends on this on this. The clock works, you know, chiming another, you know, another hour forward as they are some kind of they're going to something's going to happen when they all go to this dinner party. And now I'll be sitting down with Patrick Schwarzenegger to talk Saxon Ratliff.

All right. Thanks, Patrick Schwarzenegger, for joining us on the White Lotus Season 3 official podcast. Thank you for having me. I'm excited. Yeah, indeed. I think the last time I saw you was at the full moon party. I know.

Well, that's actually also where we are in the show, sort of in the aftermath of the Full Moon Party. But before we kind of get to that, I just wanted to talk about the character in general, sort of watching it all the way through.

It seemed to me like almost like as Mike deals with his archetypes and then subverts them, like this one is like Saxon is like the kind of unrestrained American male id, which is fun to see on screen. And so I was curious, was that fun to play?

You mean just like in general? In general. Well, because I was so caught up in episode five where I'm like, they're at the party. The party will last forever. Yeah, the party's going to last forever. They're like, you know, Piper's over there studying Buddhism, but they're transcending and experiencing a new reality at the party. And then I was like, oh, no. Like, you get your hangover.

I mean, even in the show in episode one, when everybody lands off the boat, Fabio and the hotel manager is like, oh, here you will be changed going home. And of course, in real life, nobody wants to change. They want to go back home like who they were, except all the characters here are like sort of forced to change by all the circumstances. Yeah.

And it's really fun, in particular with Saxon, because at first you're like, OK, I know exactly what this is. But you're like, well, how is everybody going to like, come out of their identity and the way it happens for sex. And it's like particularly dramatic, right?

Yeah, you feel real pity for him. And even there's a point where he goes to his father and says, like, this is all I am. I'm not anything else. And they're like, oh, no, I feel sad for this guy.

Like, the next day comes. The morning after happens. There's no way out of it. And I felt like I was like, I had like duped myself like yet again. Yeah. Into believing I was going to live forever because I was like at this awesome party. I mean, in some way, all the characters are looking for transcendence in different forms.

Yeah. I mean, it's very profound throughout the show. And then the Ratliff family and then the siblings, it's like at each of these different scales and then within Saxon. And it kind of unfolds in this interesting way, like on the boat on the way to the full moon party, Lothan says something sort of like, one of these days I'm going to own you, right? And then Saxon's sort of like, attaboy, yeah.

Does not know what that is going to turn out to be. Neither of them do, right? Did you know that that was coming with the character when you signed on to the show?

I was shocked actually when it was the development, but it is so satisfying because also it's not just for shock value. It is actually about the sense of self and meaning and now what, who am I?

And there's drugs and sex or there are people that come from this background of money offers happiness or where do you find your happiness? And I was kind of stirred into the belief that the ecstatic. You know, revelry can also be transcendent, which I do think it can. But I was like, I was really feeling it. And now I'm like, oh, I that was not what was intended for that party.

Well, I know you were jealous not to be sitting beside me talking to Patrick.

Oh, that's right. Really exciting for me. Well, he had no idea when he signed on for the show what was going to happen to his character.

Yeah, of course. I campaigned for this. I have to play that guy.

Yeah, it was great.

Right.

We have to become an Asian woman.

We see, well, there's a little moment with Belinda. She wakes up in the arms of Pornshy. Her son catches them in bed. Sweet, funny little moment.

The White Lotus Podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media. This episode was hosted by Gia Tolentino and Josh Behrman. Natalia Winkleman is the managing producer. Our associate producers are Allison Haney, Anthony Puccillo, and Aaliyah Papes. Sound design and mix by Ewen Lai-Trimuen. At Campside Media, our executive producer is Josh Dean.

For the HBO podcast team, our executive producer is Michael Gluckstadt, senior producer Allison Cohen-Zarokach, and producer Kenya Reyes. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.

Right, everything's going well for her, so something must be off.

Yeah. Her son has shown up. That's all she wanted. He seems impossibly handsome. Her son's proud of her. Yeah. Yeah, he's proud of her. Hot son is proud of her. They have an adult relationship, it seems like, from the little interactions we get. And then, yeah, and he, and then Pornchai asks her about, oh, maybe we could, in fact, open up such a place here. And that seems intriguing to her,

Because it's a dream. And then it's also coming from somebody who's not like a solipsistic billionaire ass who might like abandon her and the idea at the drop of a hat, like what happens with Tanya, which she still feels burned by. So she's like, aha, maybe there is this is all meant for to be. And which then leaves us thinking maybe it's meant not to be.

Yeah, I mean, I was thinking about him also in relation to this idea of death as it relates to the Buddhist notion of death that we hear from the monk and over the course of the seasons, right? Like, Armand is...

trapped and he is released by his death at the end of season one and then we think like oh poor Tanya she died and you read that as victim but maybe she's not a victim maybe he's the victim because now he's trapped here still in a state of anhedonia he has everything he wanted he has all this money he has this boat and he's this

Completely miserable person. He doesn't even have a revenge fantasy. He doesn't even have some burning wounds like Rick Walton Goggins that he can maybe redeem somehow. He just is a person who's incapable of joy in any way.

With the gals, Kate sees Valentin sneaking out of Jacqueline's room.

I was wondering about that. I was not... of certain mind about whether Kate was just daft. I was wondering if she thought, oh, maybe we're just doing more two girls gossiping about the third. But I did know, what I knew for sure was that this is going to be different than all the other gossip sessions. This is going to- Because someone's going to confront.

It's like throwing a grenade into the foxhole.

Now she has the moral high ground. For the first time.

And I'm Josh Behrman.

Right, of course. You know, it's not even cheating. No, it's the, like, psychological chess game that Lori thinks Jacqueline was playing. I sort of felt... sympathetic to Jacqueline who was like, I didn't have any plan. And I don't think she did have a plan. It did just happen. But of course, she is the one who always was able to be in that position to make it happen.

And that's the eternal grievance, right, that Lori has. Yeah. I don't think Jacqueline was scheming.

Oh, right. Did they not have it the whole time? Right.

Right. And so at some point of the night, she made a decision. Look at you reading between the lines.

Between in this deleted scenes. When did this even happen?

But that statement also exists in this other context of what's going on in the show in general, where... Some people are changing in this episode. And we've seen, I mean, Frank surely changed from last, you know, according to his monologue. And so it's interesting. Like, the truth of that statement is also in some kind of conflict or tension with the truth that people are transformed.

The tension between those two things is probably what is going on in this whole season.

Then you have the two Ratliff boys. So they wake up on the boat. Saxon is... Barfing.

It's sort of being revealed slowly, and then he realizes that he's, well, he doesn't quite know what the full extent of what happened is, but even just the thought of he's jerking off in bed. While looking at his brother. Looking at his brother, he gets seasick and runs and barfs. You guys forced us to.

Hmm.

Right. Okay, good question. This episode is doing a good job of like everybody could want to kill somebody else or be in trouble or be desperate or be the mark of somebody who's desperate.

He's no longer, yeah, the confident man who kind of like swishes through life with ease, right? All of a sudden he's not himself. So then the kids are all at the pool.

She's a lover. She wants to connect with somebody's soul. And maybe we're going to, even that'll happen in another life. Yeah. And she's like, he has no soul. But now I wonder, he's troubled. So all of a sudden, it's like the grain of sand that becomes the pearl. Like there's an agita that's going to turn into something.

Tim and Saxon, they go off together for a year and they come back, new people. And dad does his time. And then they get out and start some kind of like Habitat for Humanity type of philanthropic work. And they're reborn as the true pillars of the community that they always thought they were. Yes. And so the boys come back to the family. Piper wants to go to the monastery.

It reminded me that at the very beginning of White Lotus season one, when they're greeting the boat, Armand is there and they're all smiling and he's there with the woman who later just gives birth in the middle of the hotel. She's a trainee and he's saying, what you want to do is be nobody. You know, you don't want to be too specific.

He's just like, you just want to be like a non-presence, not a person. So you're like, he's saying deny your identity. Later, he like throws that yoke off and like rolls with his identity and he winds up dead, right? So I feel like there's like a cautionary tale in the aspect of Of your identity. And it's now I see it like running through the whole thing.

And he's like, it's a good business.

That's when I was like, oh yeah, now I get it. That's where I fit in. Who are you identifying with?

Right. I think part of the idea of the show is that character is not destiny.

Right. Classic storytelling is that character is destiny.

Right. By converse logic also, there is, I think, a line in there where they say, oh, after you leave here, you'll be a whole new person. But of course, the reality is that people go on vacation and they don't want to, they want to be the same person. Right.

They think they want to have something new, but they actually want to go to the hotel and come home and go back to their house and be the same as they were. And that's the trap that most people would step into, I guess, if you were following the kind of like spiritual logic of the show. And then some people break out. Yeah, I wonder who that's going to be.

Welcome to the White Lotus Season 3 podcast, the companion show to the series. It's nice to have you guys both. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

What's interesting to me watching it is that you guys have this lovely little romance, this courtship, but it's also, both of the characters are very different from your real lives, right?

Like, you're an international, you know, pop star, and you come from a military background, and, you know, where your character's sort of supposed to be, like, unfamiliar with that world, and so what was that like, sort of playing these two different types of people from yourselves who are then interacting with each other?

And where do you land in that trio?

Like you wanted to immediately disarm them and take them down.

You feel it right away from the first encounter with the moped.

Basically.

I thought you started this morning. You already started rehearsing some moves.

Here we have Sam Nivola, who plays Lachlan Ratliff. Welcome to the White Lotus Season 3 podcast, and nice to see you again. It's nice to see you again, and nice to meet you. I'm very happy to be here.

They probably console themselves by believing that their gossip is actually a form of caring because they're talking about, oh, poor things went through this troubled time. But it's not really constructive, compassionate. It's because they don't do anything. There's no action taken. And then later, the other leg of the stool is present when it's. Laurie and Kate.

You're like, are you sure I shouldn't play Saxon?

Yeah, it's interesting. It's really well set up with the very first scene getting to the villa where You're trying to decide which room. Are you going to be a child still and sleep with your sister or be an adult and follow the male lineage of the family? And the same with the decision with Chapel Hill and Duke, right? Yeah, exactly. Which way are you going?

You chose adulthood over the extended adolescence of college.

Yeah, exactly. And then it seemed like she picks up that they're talking about her explicitly, right? They're trying to like basically undo that facade brick by brick in the conversation they were having just before.

That never goes away. I think actually to the point you were making about the way that there's sort of not a judgment about the character and the choices that you make and – Things can go right or wrong, and it's okay. I think that, for me, kind of holds true for the show in general, that that's probably what it's about, right?

The show is very sympathetic to all the characters, even in their deepest mistakes. And so I'm curious, is that something you felt coming from Mike as the show's being made?

The White Lotus Podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media. This episode was hosted by Gia Tolentino and Josh Bierman. Natalia Winkleman is the managing producer. Our associate producers are Allison Haney, Anthony Puccillo, and Aaliyah Papes. Sound design and mix by Ewan Leitrim-Ewan. At Campside Media, our executive producer is Josh Dean.

Yeah. Talk. Right. Right. Also, I mean, I feel it's again, I feel like it's difficult to watch, but it's also I think the writing is sympathetic to the characters. Like they're not malevolent. They're all doing it's all kind of self-preservation. Right. Because you're feeling these instincts of comparison and your emotional hackles are based on your friend's success or not. And so so.

There's this compulsion basically to try to then measure yourself and like rebalance it by having your side gossip or introducing a negative thought about the other friend to the third one, right? Like it's just it's like this natural sort of self-preservation. I also loved their interaction with Fabian, the hotel director. Oh, my God.

When he comes over and reveals that he, too, would love to perform. No, no.

Emerging out of a giant clamshell. Yeah, exactly. Also, I am very thrown off by the fact that this is the same actor who plays Rudolf Hoest, the Auschwitz commandant in Zone of Interest. Wow. His range. Yeah. So I'm excited to see where Fabian winds up. So we have also a scene with Mook and Guy Talk, the Thai staff. He really blew it there. I know. He pulled the fish hook before it was baited.

He basically asked her to marry him elliptically without any context or preface. As she said, we've never been on a date. Oh, but I, you know, obviously everybody's going to be shipping these two. I know.

With the robbery.

It appears like there's a deception operation here so that a car can get in and there's mass dudes running with guns and steal cars.

And I'm Josh Bierman.

He gets pistol whipped.

You gasped. Did I?

Mm-hmm. It's interesting, quick side note, that guy, the real guy, is like a special forces. Really? He's like a military guy.

And yeah, and you can tell, like if you meet him, he's not like that character at all.

Yeah, I know, that's so sweet. Yeah. Well, I'm hoping for them. I was struck by something with the robbery. What happens just after is the classic White Lotus dinner seating, which still remains much more dramatic than the robbery had just happened. You're like, oh, OK, I guess so. I don't know. I've seen that before.

What's going to happen at dinner? I mean, I was even thinking about how the show works in this novelistic setting. way of like making the rounds through all the characters over and over again and each time adding a little bit of layer of personality and so on. So we had the Quebecois maybe escort.

And Gary slash Greg.

And the foursome at dinner. What about you? What do you do? Well, the same thing that you do, Gary. This and that.

I'm glad that you made a friend. By the way, that sex scene, surprising. Yeah. But also that it seemed very genuine and tender. And then I was... Again, I was like, all you want to be do if you're like wounded, you all you want to be do is like taken care of by like an open hearted fawn.

Yes. Although this may be the last warning, because by now you probably know how podcasts work. Yeah. And later on in this episode, we're going to be speaking with Taim Taptim-Tong and Lalisa Manaval, who play Gaitak and Mook, and Sam Nivola, who plays the youngest Ratliff, Lachlan.

And so that's what he then it made. So now I get like this is why they're together.

Right. Right. Even not sexually. Like she throws out the tantric, you know, offer at the beginning and he doesn't go for it. And it's only when he really. Has been brought low by the meditation session. Yes, exactly, that he's, like, open to receive her.

What? Aren't they all supposed to be a little specie specie? Ah!

It's interesting. I mean, Saxon is this very timely rearticulation of just like pure American male id. He's like Gordon Gekko. He's like this, you know, from Wall Street.

And his parents just giggle about it.

That could be coming.

How do I have that in my house? Yeah.

What are you talking—why are you two discussing this?

Some of the characters now we're seeing some leads as to what might happen, right? So Belinda. Oh, I love Belinda's moment. Clocks the hot bod. Pornchise. Pornchise bod. So how would you like me? On my back or on my stomach. And she's like, on my stomach. And he's like, I'm at me. And then she also clocks Gary slash Greg at the dinner, right?

Right.

Or is she going to suddenly start sleuthing?

Right.

It's true. I mean, how is he to know that Belinda's going to show up on her training mission?

No.

One thing I was struck by watching is that a lot of this episode is about performance. You have the vocal performance at the dinner from the matron of the hotel. And then, of course, you have the three friends who are on their girls' trip who are engaging in this ongoing self-performance for each other, which then drops when one of them is away.

Yeah, yeah. I'm now stronger in the Goggins direction. When he gets into the treatment center and is there in this kind of spiritual repartee with the guru there. I don't need to detach. I'm already nothing.

Well, I mean, it must be exhausting to write, to put that on. Can you write to be performing all the time? But also that family, the Ratliff family, is a group performance of some kind, right? Piper's trying to opt out. Lachlan's unsure. Saxon's the biggest. He wants to be the new leading man.

And then the parents are kind of orchestrating the whole thing. And you I mean, it's already the edifice is already cracking. Right. And we are able to see as viewers actually in the wings of that performance.

Again, by the way, I was thinking about the prison of identity.

And the therapist says the same thing to Rick.

Yeah, and I was an extra. I was dancing around, but I did not get a glimpse of myself, so I was very disappointed.

Kate throws a wet blanket on the party.

I was... gripping the table. But no, we'll have to watch it again.

Oh, my God. Your incest, it arrived.

The charitable view is that it's, you know, some surprise intimacy. I don't know. I also, well, I didn't expect it. So at the beginning when they walk into the villa and they have to decide on the bedrooms and Saxon talks about adult genitals and you're like, ooh, the promise of incest lurks. And I was like, yeah, no, I don't think so. Like, that's not going to happen. And then here it did.

No, I didn't believe it.

This is just an astonishing sequence or scene even. It's just one scene and it's one conversation. And it's this incredible monologue. And so it's like a monologue in the mode of classic. It's like Olivier. It is an incredible monologue. Story that he tells and the way he tells it. And then on the look on Rick Weltengaga's face as he's assimilating this knowledge, this new story is incredible.

I also love what's funny about it is they're old friends and they haven't seen each other in a while. And there's kind of like always, you see old friends like, I wonder what's different.

And that's the setup for like, oh, we're going to learn something. He's sober now. Right. And you always think like, oh, yeah, OK, my friend got sober. I know what that story is. Nope. No.

I mean, we can— Well, we don't—yes.

Oh, right. He's sharing.

He's also – I mean, his delivery is very matter-of-fact, right? And he's telling him the story. But he's also so self-assured of where he is and who he is that he betrays no trace of fear about telling his friend what he tells him, which is like – Such a funny way to invert what his, like your Asian fetish.

This turns out to be different.

He says, he starts like, oh, I have an Asian fetish. That fetish turns out to be something else entirely.

To be like another facet of my sort of projected self.

This is what I thought was just astonishing about this because it's like Frank is like blowing Rick's mind. Right. He's sitting there kind of like with his doers like, oh, wow. And it's not even like, what did I get myself into? He is just... Accepting this new information about his friend.

And it's like this incredible monologue about his kink, which turns out to actually be this profound idea about decoupling your identity. Right. Which is what the show is about.

It's embedded in a context that requires some external factors. It's not completely internal, even though it is about his identity and actually coming to some Self-realization I think that the others have not had right there is something going on where I mean he says oh wow Well sex is a poetic act.

A big part of this episode is our three gals and Chloe, Chelsea, Lachlan, and Saxon on the party boat. I mean, we're at episode five. It's kind of like the midpoint of the story. And it's also that part, like if you're at camp or you're on vacation, there's the moment when You're skinny dipping in the pool on ecstasy, right? This is what is happening in this episode.

It's like he uses carnality as a mode of seeking and so it's like Trying to discover the infinite by getting close to death via sex while not being yourself and trying to understand yourself through other people and all this I was like This is this is a new idea. I had not thought of this before.

And I was sure as fuck not prepared for Frank, the guy who's going to help get our guy Rick tomorrow calling in the final to deliver this this new idea.

Right, it's true. And also just... The egolessness in the throes of like pure sexual reverie.

So that's another kind of way to try to get towards this glimpse the absolute. Right. Which like Piper's seeking one way. They're seeking a different way over at the full moon party. And then Frank comes. Frank blows the door off the hinges with his way. Yeah. The episode ends on Tim Ratliff with the gun. He's been trying to get the gun back the whole time.

And he's writing a suicide note and he's going to kill himself. But he's interrupted by his wife. And so then... He reveals a little bit obliquely about here's what's wrong is all the expectations. Do you know what I've been exposed to ever since I was a kid? And then again, like the identity is a prison.

Those expectations are what made him into the person that he is that did the favor for the $10 million to be a pillar of the community, to be in the country club. to have the beautiful family where everybody can go to Duke, and then now the agony he must be in to not be able to explain what this is.

Right. This being the mid-point of the show, it's the point at which all the characters have accepted where they are, and they're also making choices and crossing the Rubicon, right? So there is some kind of built-in sense of they're all now making these choices, and how is it going to play out for the rest of the season?

Everybody has just like the inhibitions have been shed. They've surveyed the social landscape, felt present, and now they're ready. They're going for it. I mean, it's montaged together, right? You're seeing kind of these dual images of both parties, right? And so there's sort of, on the boat, It's in stages. They're like, there's the approach to the party.

Who will be transformed, basically.

Yeah. And it's also interesting. The show is making a commentary, which is travel in the modern age. It's about sort of vacation and like pina coladas, right? It's about reading your summer read and your Mai Tai. Whereas travel before, I don't know, the 19th century was... dangerous or magical, right? All the mythical stories are like, you're going to go somewhere. Acquire knowledge.

Yeah, acquire knowledge, learn something about yourself, be transformed or die in glory or whatever. That's not what travel is about anymore. And so what it's saying is like, maybe it is, right? Maybe you will go to a foreign place and discover something exotic, not in the colonial sense, but outside of yourself and come back a different person. If you come back at all, because of course,

And now we'll be speaking to Carrie Coon. Welcome, Carrie Coon, to the official White Lotus season three podcast.

We were sort of intrigued as we were watching the show how the sort of each two sets of the women get the chance to talk to each other. Yes.

Yes. Oh, yeah. And she was like, oh, yeah, sure. Every woman is going to be able to recognize themselves and their sets of friends in this. So we were wondering, did you know a Jacqueline in high school?

It's almost kind of like the mythical passage making, right? They're crossing the water. They're talking about what to expect and then they get to the party.

Your character's the one at the beginning who says, oh, we're all mirrors of each other. And we all, like when we were kids, we all saw each other in ourselves. But as you get older, that becomes the mirror mirror on the wall who's the fairest of them all, right? And it's a dangerous mirror to look at.

I know he says Saxon doesn't do drugs. So it's like a classic like a third person.

But Lachlan does. He goes right for it immediately. Saxon is shocked. And then I guess Saxon does do drugs because he felt the peer pressure and he does it. And I like how he's almost immediately seems like on the verge of epiphany. Right. When they get to the full moon party, since he's like never, you know, not in control. Right. Of his own self. Confidence lock.

I will say I personally was disappointed that Laurie did not take home Valentin.

Right. I was a little surprised. She was like right away.

Yeah, exactly right. And I'm not the Jacqueline you see on screen, but I am the Jacqueline in the environment of my small town setting.

Welcome, Parker Posey, to the official White Lotus Season 3 podcast. Nice to have you.

At this point in the show, the sort of chickens are coming home to roost for Tim, this bad deal with Kenny, and it's not yet clear to Victoria. But he's obviously acting different, and sort of the family is under threat. But the whole time, Victoria's saying, talking about the family's values, we have these good values, and those people with the boat, do they have good values?

And so we were wondering, thinking about that, is Victoria's recitation always of what our families are like? Is that like a... like a true belief or almost like a spell trying to like, to ward off what she knows is actually a rot underneath the families.

He's always, like, at the gym, getting his pump, drinking his protein powder. And so to be kind of, like, intoxicated in a real way is something new to him.

Yeah, I had a hint of a sense at the very end of the first episode The Ratliffs are in their villa and they're talking and they're sort of cataloging what we've done and what we have and Victoria's saying, you built all this. And I was like, is there a Lady Macbeth vibe where there's a forceful woman back there?

Our collective meme has been like, We flew over the North Pole.

What did you think? I think that's what I would have guessed too.

All right. Well, thanks for joining us.

I know. Well, and she's like, you know, luxuriating in her blossomy blouse for a while. Yeah, that was fun. I didn't realize that she, that is her accent.

They're having their little, like, boys chat, and then Lachlan says, One day, I'm gonna take you down. Yeah?

And then Saxon is, I think he knows, oh. That's what I want to hear. That's what I want to hear from this kid. But he doesn't know what that is about to mean because then when he is the one person who's afraid to take the drugs and does and you get the sense even that he's not even necessarily a big drinker. He doesn't get drunk. Right.

And he says even like you slow down because you got to get the ladies drunk.

He's like he's. you know, like tosses back a few frosty ones, but he's not out there getting drunk. So to be on ecstasy.

Right. Well, and she says you can't spend your life trying to rescue people. Yeah. But that is exactly what she's going to do.

Right.

Right. They're in a little bit more of like a contemplative state.

Right. Right. Right. He would have been the person that if you'd asked me, like, no, no, no, I don't question anything. And then. No. Well, now he does. Yes. But what's interesting, this might have been some kind of sense memory for me because I had kind of a similar experience while I happened to be there when the full moon party was shooting. And it's 50,000 people. It's this ridiculous scene.

It is not my scene. It's not where I ever would have wound up going. And neither was it really for most of the cast. So everybody had this amped up weird energy like we're going to the full moon.

And I'm Josh Bierman.

Yes. There's people getting like blacklight painting, you know, and like butterflies on their face and girls wearing like fairy wings. Right, right, right. Dudes like with backpack and no shirt on. Right, right. It really is just sort of like spring break Daytona Beach, but Thai beach style. And it's ridiculous. And there's dudes breathing fire. And you get these buckets of booze. You get a drink.

It's in a bucket. And I just did have this experience where at a certain point, we were making fun of the party, kind of observing the party. And then there just was a moment where we're like, And now I'm at this party. Yeah, it's unironic. And then I'm not. There's no irony anymore. We're dancing. And then that went on for hours. I had like dropped in, which is what happens in the episode. Right.

Like they all kind of like drop into this experience. OK, let's go for it.

And they get onto the dance floor with the three Russians. This was thrilling. I found this.

She has engineered the perfect party.

Oh my God, it was so good. And they're each reacting to the party in a different way.

Now the party is the mirror.

Right. That's true. So we can, you know, sympathize with Kate a little bit. She got kind of the dud.

But she kind of assigned herself the dud, right? Because she's the dud between the three of them, right?

Yes.

Yeah, exactly. Right. But just like a great satisfaction for Lori and Jacqueline. I feel like I got like, I shed a tear in the party scene watching those girls dance. Really? Yeah. I'm really feeling it for them.

She's having her quiet courtship with Pornchai.

That's a beautifully comic scene.

I know, it could be this bed, it could be that bed. They face an external threat, the monitor lizard, and then that brings them together. The tonal tension in the show is so effective by the way that it's...

ratcheting up at the party between the two different party scenes, and then every so often flashing back to the sort of quiet of the hotel and what's going on there, which is Belinda's careful sleuthing.

Yeah, exactly.

You don't want to know who the killers are.

The Ratliff parents and Piper are having their reduced Ratliff family dinner.

Right. Everybody's, there's a new permission structure.

Right. I mean, it is it's funny. It's like she's articulating the explicit. It's almost like the schoolgirls version of the search, the thematic idea of the show of searching. Right. She's she's expressing out loud in this well-articulated way what everybody else can't really figure out how to say for themselves.

Whereas Piper is studying it in school and wants to go spend like a year at a monastery to try to even figure out what the question that Lachlan just spontaneously presented to his brother is. Listen, I admire her sort of like A student, earnest approach to learning about this other culture that is clearly going to be more meaningful to her than the world she grew up in.

Oh, yeah.

But Piper's like, I got to go to this place for a year to even figure out what I might want to understand about myself. Whereas everybody else is at the party and they're finding out.

It's like, yes, another completely different form of its own transcendence, right, is what's happening at that party or on the dance floor. And she's doing all this work to figure it out.

I've got issues? Mm-hmm. Oh, you're the one who's crazy.

Greg, Tanya's husband.

Well, they're married, so he would inherit the money, presumably. And I don't know if it's ever explicitly revealed.

I visited the set, so I was on set while they were shooting parts of the show, and I might actually be in an episode. I don't know yet.

Yes. That's my assumption. Maybe we will find out otherwise.

And it's, you know, Thailand is the type of place to sort of, you know, disappear with your money, which, by the way, is I'm wondering what you make of Walton's quest. He's here for some reason. He was arrested. He can't go to Australia.

He's got enough money to be there. What is his past? I have no idea.

I don't know either. Well, you should know. This is your guy. I know. I know. I know. Look within yourself. Imagining myself as Samuel— I can see a lot of scenarios where I would wind up there. I have no idea. I have a hunch that's probably going to be wrong that there's some sort of business past.

The metathesis?

Well, I have a thesis about season one, which now relates to season three. And so I feel sort of, you know, semi-vindicated so far. But I feel like season one is, despite the kind of surface level dealing in ideas of wealth and privilege and so on, that it actually was this kind of Buddhist parable. It's about...

how basically everybody is wrestling with their own internal suffering and they're all unhappy. Even Shane, the rich guy, right, who's like, we're in the wrong suite, we need the pineapple suite. And you think he's the villain, but it's just that he's on vacation and he also can't be happy, right? Like upstairs or downstairs, everybody is like having this internal suffering. And

They don't know where to find meaning or happiness, right? That's what everybody's kind of looking for. And they don't even realize it. And then, over the course of that season, the only people who get off the wheel are Armand, because he dies, with a smile on his face.

I mean, he starts quoting Tennyson about death is the end of life and all this stuff. And you see him kind of, like, let go, basically, of himself. And then... Quinn, the son, communes with nature. The guy's addicted to his phone and porn. And he communes with nature and sees a whale and then gets on the boat and all of a sudden just escapes.

That's the only way out basically is to like dive into the ocean, right?

Yeah. I mean, well, that's the nature of Buddhism, right? The four noble truths. The first one is all life is suffering. And the second one is suffering is caused by needs or attachments or desires. And so that is, I feel like, what season one is actually about, kind of underneath everything.

Everybody has to have needs.

Yes. Now we're in a place where it's like the whole country is like this blank canvas for people's spiritual seeking. Right. And it's a Buddhist country.

Identity is a prison. No one is spared this prison. Rich man, poor man, success or failure. We build the prison, lock ourselves inside, then throw away the key.

The guy says identity is a prison. I think that is that's what the show is about. OK, that's the yeah, that is the head.

And then and he says no one is spared, rich, poor, whatever. And I think that that is why I feel like that's what is happening in season one, too. And in that respect. I think in general, Mike is very sympathetic to all the characters. There are no real villains. Nobody is a bad person.

Yes, right. Well, yes, exactly. This time it's going to be on purpose. Somebody's going to be killed on purpose. Yeah. Or perhaps. But even so, I think that whatever motivations, whatever happens that leads people to that place, I feel like

The show and Mike is fundamentally sympathetic to that because it's all born out of whatever vulnerability and human frailties that people have that lead them to question themselves, to worry about who they are and what is meaningful. Even in this episode of the family and the three women, at a certain point, they catalog what they have. They all catalog what they have.

So you know, like, it's going to get, something's going to get lost, right? And then we're going to see what happens.

Or you have a deep insight into the whole scope of the show.

We'll be joined later in the episode by White Lotus EP Dave Burnett and Michelle Monaghan, who plays Jacqueline.

Well, I have two answers. I'll give you both answers. Neither of them are perfect, obviously. My first instinct actually was the Walton Goggins character. Hell yeah, brother. I feel like the sort of leathery burnout phase could be in my future. I can see it.

We've been debating. What the relationship between the three women was as girls in high school or junior high was Jacqueline sort of the queen bee and the other two are vying for her attention? Are they all on an equal playing field? And now because of her career, she's sort of emerged on top.

Jacqueline's like, I don't remember.

Yeah. I think that's the clue that she was the preeminent one. Yeah. She doesn't remember this performance.

No. And with a mysterious dark past. He's in paradise but miserable. I've had that phase of life. Could be coming back around again in the future. And at the other end, I think probably Lachlan, Sam Navola's character, the younger brother in the family, that not that particular family but sort of being... the odd man out in a family, right?

It's interesting. In this episode is when we're getting to know Jacqueline. All the three ladies. I think Lori, Carrie Coon says, it's like we're all mirrors.

Well, that's the thing. I feel like it makes that sense. She's talking about in the youth, right? When you're kind of learning who you are and your friends do mirror you and you discover who you are by the mirroring of social life with friends. your deepest friends. But then as you get older, the mirror means something different. It's like mirror, mirror on the wall. Right.

Like it's the trick mirror. And so then now you're now the mirror is actually a comparative mirror and it's telling you something different about yourself by the gaze at your friends. Right. And then that's what unfolds throughout. And you see all that just in that one or two scenes. It's so well drawn.

This is the key question.

Really?

And feeling like you're trying to figure out who you are and trying to define yourself against your family. My family did not go on vacation. That was like opposed to our ethos. And we certainly wouldn't have been to the White Lotus, but I could kind of see being that kid and trying to like figure out your way and being confused by your own family.

I think she is the newly elevated head of a spy agency. And she finds out that there's a subversive element within the agency. She has to root it out by herself.

We're going to pitch this. Yeah, exactly. We've developed this. Well, we're going to, we'll pitch it to Bernard. Yeah, pitch it to Bernard, our next guest. Our next guest is Dave Bernard, the executive producer of White Lotus and an old pal of mine. I'm looking forward to chatting with him. All right, we're now joined by White Lotus EP, Dave Bernard. Good to see you. How's it going?

Almost. Almost, yeah. That's how I got a free trip to Thailand.

And then winding up 40 years later as Walton Collins.

We were talking about this, and you were saying that you were originally drawn to Japan, but to place the story there juxtaposes the cultures differently. The culture of Japan is so specific that you have to embed the characters and how they're relating to Japanese culture, whereas Thailand is a more neutral culture.

territory for visitors to come and they don't have to navigate the local culture in the same way.

Yes. Seriously. Yeah. This is the breakthrough we might need. Yeah. I have vivid dreams already. Do I need to be writing them down? Yes, you should.

Well, it's interesting that Thailand was the second thought because the sort of defining thing about visiting Thailand is the Buddhist culture. Was the Buddhism there when you were also thinking about Japan or did it really come to the surface in this dream? By the way, Jay wants to know exactly what was in the nebulizer.

I know I feel very vindicated now. You know, my whole thesis about season one is Buddha's parable. And then as season three is unfolding, it's like, aha, here it is now on the surface.

Oh, that's a good question. Probably also Walton Goggins.

Yeah, you'll notice a lot of bald white guys in Thailand. Yeah. The locals call them LBH's losers back home.

I have a question for you about how the show is very unusual in that You have the pilot does give you obviously a hint of like something bad happens. The first one, it's fairly mild. In number two, well, probably foul play. And then in this one now, you know there's gunfire. There's like intentional violence coming.

And so it's kind of like ratcheting up what the stakes are going to likely be from the cold open basically. But then season one is very simple ultimately, right? The whole action is motivated by they got the wrong hotel room. And then in season two, there is like a murder plot and stuff that happens. So in season three, is this plot wise going to be more complicated?

Like what's where is this headed?

All right, great. Well, I'm sure everybody else is going to be having a rotating identification through all the characters over the course of the season. So now let's get into the first episode.

I found this to be quite terrifying, actually. Yeah, I know. I wasn't really caught up in this opener, which is different from the others, obviously. It was way steep in the water and trying to figure out where to go, and my mom's out there, and I was really on edge. I'm, like, squeamish and, like— movies or TV that produce anxiety. So this really got me.

You know at the beginning.

I love that. So then we flash back to one week earlier and everybody's arriving and you have the usual sort of socioeconomic and personality dynamics in the choreography of what's happening on the boat.

This is Lisa.

And I'm Josh Behrman.

Yeah. But then you can't when she's so, you know, plays this like buttoned up demure character in this that you it's hard to realize that there's this international global superstar in there. Yeah, I know.

Yeah, there's like a pretty in pink dynamic going on here.

Yeah, totally. So, of course, I'm wondering, like, what's going on? Are they going to wind up together? What's going to happen? Is it going to be like pretty and pink? Is she going to go away? I want them to wind up together. I do too.

Yeah. And then we have Belinda.

Yes.

was very nice to see her again on screen um so we see that she's in thailand and she's there studying and she's greeted by porn chai the um the masseuse at this white lotus and belinda's the one that you most want to have like the triumphant you know walk away with huge bags of and yet somehow even seeing how excited she is and how she's like i really have a

good feeling you're like oh no melinda i know i know having just re-watched season one i was struck again how emotionally damaging her encounter with tanya was and how she's kind of left holding she's been recovering for the last few years and here she is yeah she's finally getting her chance to trust again and then something and then there's going to be a gunfight yeah

And a few words before we get started. This is the Companion podcast, which means we'll be discussing the latest episode of the White Lotus. So make sure you watch it before you listen, or you will be spoiled.

Well, I was, there was a little bit of like, they step off the boat and open their mouths. And so I thought it was coming on strong, but you say it's spot on.

Yeah, how wonderful for you.

We are a normal family. I like that they have to assure our strangers.

What's the Wi-Fi?

Right.

As journalists, we know as the subject should not answer that call. Yeah. If we can't reach you, it's better for you.

Yes, right.

Right, if he knew what it was about or even had any inclination.

Yeah, bizarre.

There's this like gender breakdown also in the family where the women went to Chapel Hill.

Yes.

You know, witness that.

A little bit about your hosts. We're both journalists and authors and have both worked in film and television as well. I'm Josh. I write for magazines. I write narrative nonfiction stories. And I have worked in film and TV because many of my stories have been optioned for the movie business. That's how I know Mike White and Dave Burnett, the creator and producers of the show.

So next we have Jacqueline, Lori and Kate speaking.

They're, you know, three tight girlfriends all the way through basically their young adult life. And they've stayed friends, and now they're getting their long-awaited vacation together. And this also is a really great experience. complex of characters that so much is laid out in just their first real introduction.

And, of course, by the way, what could go wrong when three longtime girlfriends go on vacation?

She's supposed to be the dowdy one.

I know. I'm like, how is it going to go down and how does the tape play forward? And also you can kind of see I feel like you can roll the tape back even, right, and see that, like, oh, in high school, the distribution of power and social currency was present then, too, right? Oh, yeah.

Right, right, right, right. It's when she threatens.

They're actually really good together. They're a totally functional couple.

Right, that's true.

Right. Well, first of all, we should just note, very spicy episode.

It's actually not that he's hiding. It's too painful for him to reveal, basically, right? Because he knows that... Once that happens, then the dam is going to break, right? And then he has to reveal all of himself to her. And then maybe that's dangerous. Maybe she won't want to be with him anymore, right? Who knows what that entails.

Also on the boat, you get more of the, like, lovely sibling dynamics between the Ratliffs and Saxons trying to get Lachlan laid with the lovely ladies. Yeah.

If you go, what about me?

This thing is kicking the gear here.

And then it turns out he's very good at it, wowing the ladies.

It is sweet how all the siblings really need each other. And even though Saxon's giving Piper her time, I feel like if Piper needed Saxon, he would be there. Yes. Right? Like he would 100% show up for her. I'm curious, actually, how your feelings have developed if at all about Saxon. Because my...

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it could also just be.

Yeah. Well, he has a weakness now. He has a vulnerability. Like he's not perfect. He thinks he's perfect, but he's not, which is among the worst kind of vulnerabilities. Right. And so I'm finding him a little bit more sympathetic. It could also be I like watching him. Like, he has such an ease of it.

The way that he flirts with those girls, the way that he has, like, all the exact movements down of, like, how to deal with them.

Uh-huh, right.

So for me, it's the opposite, where it's like, that's the guy that, like, I wanted to be in high school, right? And the guy that I always saw and was like, How do you pull that off?

And I think he might, but I want that out of him. you know, for all of his pride, and which is go a thing before the fall, he still is somebody who's lived life and has raised children and has dealt with like the emotional kind of vulnerabilities of just that alone, right? You just are different at that stage in life than where Saxon is.

And so we have like the wounded lion of Rick, and then like the proud father coming undone. And then I wonder where like, The striding buck is what's going to happen with him, like, when his, you know, foot gets caught in the trap, to extend the Sylvan metaphor.

But, like, I also just, I mean, in some ways also I'm thinking about, like, Patrick Schwarzenegger himself is kind of from this, you know, he's a Kennedy.

Yeah, exactly. And he just, he moves through the world in that way. It's like, oh, am I watching, is this what, like... Jack Kennedy was like, you know, at Harvard, right?

So the first thing we see is Jacqueline, and we get the first hint of trouble in paradise back home with Harrison, her younger man.

Yeah, it's rationing up. And you – it's a little like hints of it only in this episode, but you see – but it's like now – It's clear they've got – they've made each other. Right. They each know what the other knows.

They know what the other knows and now it's like they're set on a collision course.

Right. What is her recourse?

That's what you think. He was focusing, right. He gets on her Instagram. He sees her son.

He's really interesting, too. He was like sort of in season one, like plays this kind of goofy, guileless character.

And now he's this like stoic monster that we know has this like simmering.

Oh, right, right, right. They were intuiting that there might be something going on.

Right. And then when he says is like, what are you? Are you hiding or seeking? Yeah. What's the name of the episode? And it just like hits so hard.

The gun just sitting there. Why the fuck did the guy talk to you?

He is a bad security guard. He just leaves a gun sitting. By the way, it's not even just like on the desk.

Because he sees it from outside the shed. Right. That's a very conspicuous word.

Amazing. It's an insane twist on the Chekhov gun. It's the eternally recurring Chekhov's gun. It keeps coming, having more import. It takes a while. We know it's there. Then it's revealed. Then it gets now stolen.

When he returns to dinner after having learned basically that the wave has arrived and the sort of shot lingers on his face trying to resettle himself at dinner and just the expression on his face is so good and telling.

Just waiting for the Bloody Mary to show up so you can, like, get right again.

It's interesting. As we've been discussing, a lot happens in this episode. The gears are turning. The billiard balls are moving. And the Chekhovian gun has appeared and has made its way into the hands of one of the protagonists who's losing his mind. And it is very plotty, actually, in comparison to previous two seasons, particularly season one. Yeah.

He's bunny-raveting with some other, somebody on set.

You're right. I bet you it's like the violence is not instrumental. It's going to be the denouement of some of the emotional carnage, right? And it's going to be the outcome of something as opposed to the thing that sets it in motion. What sets things into motion here are just the people and who they are and what they're afraid of. Right.

Jesus fucking Christ. All right, welcome Jason Isaacs to the White Lotus season three official companion podcast. Thanks very much.

Yeah, it's really, it's a strange, like exciting for a song watching like a great man spiral, you know, watching the descent. So I was like, what in your own life have you drawn on to...

Those three in particular are suddenly going through some kind of, like, Greek mythical series of trials and tribulations. Right. Like, Micah's decided to put them through the wringer in this episode.

Is that what's going on? No, no, no. I'm going to get the answer. No, no. Ask a different version of an adjacent question, which is, so then was it fun to luxuriate in this fully formed, spiraling great man that Mike has created for you?

They get sent to this other resort, and then they get there and they just see it's all full of old people. It's all full of retirees. Yeah, it's like retirees. Like, the first people they talk to are these women on, like, some kind of group tour of widows. Yeah.

Yeah. Do you think that the deal with Kenny was just like a one-time peccadillo that really was a favor to a friend?

Is this systemic with him, do you think, Isaac? It was like, I'm just curious.

Yeah. This is like we were debating. I was like, what if he... What if he's a lovely guy who did a favor to a friend? Yeah, exactly.

I was like, is that what we're meant to take away?

In this episode, you get the call, the shit's going to hit the fan. I guess we can say that on the podcast.

Spies the gun sitting in the security station. So what do you think is going on there? What do you think Tim's intention is with the gun? Or is it just like- Absolutely to kill himself.

Yeah, confirmed.

Another predictive point on your bingo card.

By the way, also, the way the show kind of like lingers and then slowly reveals in every direction, it's all full of these old people, is both funny and then sort of – and then tragic for the characters because you realize that this is – they're in some – it's almost like they're in some kind of purgatory, right? Or they're also in the theme of like –

Life, death, spiritualism, like the death part, like this is they're being reminded of their mortality. Like it's coming for you. Like no matter what you guys do, no matter how many victory tours you guys do, you're going to wind up at this pensioner's pool eventually. And your husbands are going to die.

You're going to be like one of these two ladies that you are disgusted by basically because of what happened to them.

All right. So thanks, of course, to our guests, Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook. And join us for the next episode. The White Lotus Podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media. This episode was hosted by Gia Tolentino and Josh Behrman. Natalia Winkleman is the managing producer. Our associate producers are Allison Haney, Anthony Puccillo, and Aaliyah Papes.

Sound design and mix by Ewan Leitrim-Ewan. At Campside Media, our executive producer is Josh Dean. For the HBO podcast team, our executive producer is Michael Gluckstadt, senior producer Allison Cohen-Zarokach, and producer Kenya Reyes. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.

And the horror is just getting old.

Right, life outside of the White Lotus and the world that you live in, the White Lotus back home as well.

Right. And I think it's kind of meant as it's like a purposeful look behind the curtain, right? Or like almost breaking of the fourth wall in some way. Like, by the way, here's the real. This is really what happens when you go on vacation. Right. Like in Thailand for most people and you're sort of at this place and there's real people and random people and it's sort of like whatever.

But it is so... Almost unsettling, right? Even I was sort of like, well, we can't stay here.

We've got to go. What are we going to do here?

Yeah.

Right. Exactly. I mean, right. That was they actually are experiencing something authentic.

It's a little bit all quiet on the western front. I mean, they're kind of going down the alleyway and there's a little, little kid with a water gun and Jacqueline's like, oh, cute. And then the camera lingers on that kid's face and is like, oh, no. Then it's like revenge. The kid gets a whole gang and comes after them and, again, completely unseats them, right?

They're no longer in their sort of perfect poise and well-coiffed and all put together. They are thrown out of their element entirely.

The other thing that kind of gets kicked into motion at the beginning of this is with Rick and Chelsea. And he says, like, OK, I got to go to Bangkok. And he has that encounter with his therapist, right, who's like, I would love to see you again. And I found this to be very affecting. I'm curious for your thoughts on this.

You were like, that's the face my four-year-old makes when she's trying to get her way.

I was like, the answer is yes. Somebody says, I want you to go on my fancy boat.

I know. It's funny. There's this tremendous tension being built the whole time between the world that she inhabits, that she loves her husband for having built for her, that has its values that she believes in, and anything outside of that is sort of questionable. But we know what she doesn't know, which is that that is unraveling. That is a colossus of clay feet and it is about to disappear.

We did. We did finally at last.

And so the more that she keeps repeating it over and over, what's important to her, what's important to her, You're bracing for her fall.

Right. There's no other potential culprit.

Because her sense of propriety and fear of strangers means that on a very fancy boat she wants to hide her purse somewhere.

We got a real close up of Daddy's and Gorge Balls.

Oh, yeah. The morally neutral world of high finance.

As opposed to whatever his grandfather was doing as governor of North Carolina during segregation, presumably. Yeah.

I've been in general kind of loving seeing the proud patriarch spiraling. Yes. Like a proud man coming undone, which is what starts happening through this whole episode. He reveals at one point sort of like his pedigree and how he raises a glass to his dead parents and grandparents. So they're not going to see his downfall.

Right. And also, like, the encounter in the lobby.

I was like, oh, this is again what the show is about. This is what I think the whole series is about. This was I was sort of vindicating my thesis about season one, which is really boomeranging now in season three. And I was very struck by this because there's the same language is used.

There's I think when Tanya first gets on Belinda's, you know, spa bed, she says something like, let go of your story.

His Dirk Diggler prosthesis.

And then everybody screamed in the room. Yeah, yeah.

And then every day you're born anew, right? And this is also that Buddhist language of atemporality and not having a narrative and so on. And so then that comes up here. And also, like, it kind of has even reflected the visual cue of, like, they wake up every morning, they wake up every morning. Is this going to be the morning where they're divorced from their past and future?

Because that's the whole thing with Buddhism. It's like pain resides in the past and the future with regret and anxiety. Right. And that's your story. So if you look over your story, then you're released from that.

And then I was just like, oh, this is really incredible because he's like using the huge architecture of like extremely detailed, fine grained human storytelling to get the point across that story is not the point.

I'm, like, getting so—I can't even believe that at the beginning I was like, I don't know, maybe I'm like Walton Goggins.

Like, so hard inhabiting this. Yeah.

And was also really thinking like, well, is he going to get a chance to get off? Is he going to escape the narrative that he is telling himself? And that's what's making him so unhappy.

On the screen room and in the viewership.

They got a rise out of us.

Right. I know I was wondering if at a certain point when they're talking about all that, if Tim is like, well, that's where I'm going to wind up. Like how much money can I get out of whatever accounts are still liquid and like disappear into the jungle here? A lot happens on the boat. That's where Rick reveals to Chelsea that the man who murdered my father owns the hotel.

And then she has the funny line from Princess Bride. She's like, is this like, you killed my father, prepare to die? My name is Inigo Montoya.

never really can forgive himself for what he's done.

I have a question about Frank, his monologue. Where did that come from?

I might have mentioned a little bit when I was in Thailand, but I had the whole thesis before really knowing anything about season three, that season one was this kind of Buddhist allegory. All the characters, they're all in some form of pain. And so then now we're in season three where this now is about sort of Buddhism and spirituality and people examining their own suffering and death.

I have a thematic question for you about... this season kind of as a representative of like the whole project of White Lotus as it were. So people come with this kind of spiritual seeking. A lot of the characters are there explicitly for that. And if they're not, then they wind up kind of realizing that they need to understand something about themselves.

And then they're in this context of Buddhism where a lot of the sort of like narrative is about anti-narrative. So it's this whole story of which the message is, There is no story, right? Even at the very end, the monk is saying, like, stories don't have to resolve. They don't need. That's not really the point.

It's like a grandmaster kind of storytelling in order to tell people that, like, well, maybe the way you are thinking about story is self-defeating.

Yes, thanks. It's been great. Appreciate you guys doing it. G and I had a blast.

Yeah, that sounds great.

The White Lotus Podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media. This episode was hosted by Gia Tolentino and Josh Behrman. Natalia Winkleman is the managing producer. Our associate producers are Allison Haney, Anthony Puccillo, and Aaliyah Papes. Sound design and mix by Ewan Leitrim-Ewan. At Campside Media, our executive producer is Josh Dean.

For the HBO podcast team, our executive producer is Michael Gluckstadt, senior producer Allison Cohen-Zarokach, and producer Kenya Reyes. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.

Hello, this is Josh Behrman, the co-host with Gia Tolentino of the official White Lotus companion podcast for season three. And we are here with a bonus episode with Mike White. Mike is of course the creator of the show, but it's also worth noting that he is the writer and director and executive producer, which is not really common in television.

So what's emerged is a TV show that's sort of like auteur film. I've known Mike for a long time. We've worked together and I think it's not a secret he doesn't really like to talk about his work that much, but we're gonna get a chance to do so and dive in. And so next we have Mike White.

Yeah. As is stated in the opening episode where Piper's listening to the Buddhist monk and he's like, identity is a prison. Did you have a sense when you're starting out who's going where or do you kind of find it along the way?

I think we talked about how she calls it earlier on. She's like, I'll follow you. If it doesn't work now, I'll follow you.

Well, thank you for doing this. Yeah, this is going to be fun. We're deep in it, and so we're obviously super excited to talk to you about it.

The irony is that Saxon is trying to let Lachlan off the hook of what he had set him up at the beginning of the trip. Like, you follow me, do what I say. Then Lachlan misinterprets that and tragically throws Saxon into this state of recognition of his emptiness.

By the way, yeah, like what kind of— Like some milk from the night before from Thailand. There's kind of a nice irony that it's the— First time he's going to listen to his dumb brother who's like, to be a man, you got to drink this protein shake, which his brother doesn't even believe anymore. And he's kind of lagging and is lost. And he says, I don't know anything anymore.

So it's like his answer. I'll drink this like protein smoothie with the dregs of the pina colada. And then that gives him his kind of death vision.

You figure it's the family and maybe they're actually standing around him or something, but then it kind of resolves into the monks and you can kind of see the silhouettes of their robes. It would have been completely different if Tim's own failures had led to the death of his son only and then also a secret that he either has to keep or reveal his incomplete failures.

I know. So far, you've been asking the question at the top of the show that kicks it off and puts us into the mode. And often it was, who are you identifying with? Now I turn the tables back on you. It's all said and done. Who are you identifying with?

It might be because like in maybe in the constellation of characters, Mike was thinking we need there's only room for one pure tragedy, which is the Rick and Chelsea story. Yeah. And to have another where they would maybe compete with each other.

Yeah.

Yeah. And then, you know, he's saying in that moment he's already he has the strength even before he encounters Lachlan maybe dying.

I will say, for me, more affecting was actually the resolution of the three gal pals.

Yeah. Well, so the first thing that happens is in the wake-up sequence, they're going to maybe go get breakfast together, and Jacqueline goes and wakes up Lori to be like, I just want to apologize. So that was... a nice sentiment. I'm like, oh, okay, they're going to work this out.

Basically trying to, like, crank up the victory tour rhetoric machine again. They're like, well, let's just see if we can put a little kerosene into that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. See if that hot balloon will fly.

Yeah, make it run again. And that's kind of where they're going. And then Kate is talking about in church we learn about, you know, this whole kind of like recycled homily.

The garden has bloomed. Here we are.

When she says I tried motherhood and that didn't do it for me, I was like, that's like a powerful, you know, like admission. Yeah. And so then she like reveals everything. She's like, in fact, it's time. We're here together. That in itself gives us meaning. And we can, as you say, she does what the other ones would ever be able to do, which is like bridge that gap between the different selves.

She finds synthesis. Yes, exactly.

I know. And I mean, to join you in the graduate seminar analysis. Yeah. I was thinking about sort of like in the original treatise that Rousseau writes, everybody kind of forgets one part of it is like civilization doesn't just like cause a moral or ethical kind of corruption, which is why he's like, let's go back to the state of nature. It's being in a world where you have to pretend.

You have to have appearances. Your authentic self is left behind. It's like in the state of nature, you didn't have to pretend to be anything. You were just like, you know, in your tribal bands and you were living this authentic life. And so there was no mask. You didn't have a mask. And so the mask comes off and the real people are revealed and then they can finally like be themselves together.

But they only can because they do in fact know their profound flaws and they can accept them.

And I was like, oh, they get to be their authentic selves. And that's still basically what nobody else figured out how to do in the rest of the show.

Yeah, yeah. They turn back into their, like, sort of teen selves.

Slumber party. Right. Whether or not like there's no pretense to be had. Right. And there's no appearance to keep up. Like maybe, you know, Cameron gave Ethan and Harper a gift in season two by fooling around with one because it like throws everything off. Like Jacqueline might have actually accidentally prompted a real reckoning with the friends that wouldn't have otherwise happened.

Our avatars have had their tragic end on screen.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm, right.

Obviously, I'm like sitting here thinking about Empire Strikes Back, Luke, I am your father. It's like among the grandest dramatic kind of turns that can happen. I mean, in the case of Star Wars.

The revelation is purposeful, right, to kind of draw them closer. But in this case, the father... Does not reveal it. He's cryptic and maybe and he doesn't actually want to put that out there, which may offer like a completely different type of resolution. Right. For them.

It's a strange bad planner.

She's a perfect person.

Just hanging out with these like kind of, yeah, right, with the mini donuts. It doesn't make sense. It's bad situational awareness.

I know. It's true.

I feel like some kind of like staff training would have told her to put aside Zion's session.

Yeah. I mean, yes, having been in the situation was like, I need to talk to my therapist right now. And I was like, definitely with him. And then he's over there just like sitting on a bench, like waiting in the middle of the hotel into which that scene then arrives, like basically his his tragic ending.

He kind of has this, like, English patient moment where he's, like, carrying Chelsea's body through the— I know.

I like that we came at that completely different— Yeah, yeah, yeah. Come from completely different angles. In theory, he's looking for help, but he's also just kind of— No, he's not looking for help.

That's true. That's true. He's in grand gesture mourning mode.

And waiting for the bullet in his back because then he knows he can join her and their eternal search for each other in the many lives hereafter. Which is—that's, I think, what you're meant to— See, it kind of comes back around. It turns again. We're like, oh, well, they're actually together now. They get to be together.

Yeah.

And maybe since also old man Jim is dead, he can go find him and they can work things out later. They can all spend some time together as turtles or wherever they're going to be.

New cool guy talk.

He's like, I'll try this new character on. But I think we both agree that... Well, there's also a tragedy there. It's like, by the way, all the men succumb really easily to their urges. And I guess ultimately, ironically, Tim kind of gathers the strength to press beyond his vulnerabilities.

Right. Right.

Well, I think my time on the Rick Walton Goggins train might have come to an end because I would not have been snapped back into revenge mode.

Yeah, perhaps, perhaps.

She's going to go full Gary.

Barbara is going to show up somewhere on her fancy boat.

No, no, no. I'm not Melinda. You have me mistaken for somebody else.

Speaking of, yes, Dick, why, we were wondering, doesn't she just say, porn chat, come on with me?

We don't need to start a business.

Yeah, exactly. I would never have killed the killer of my father, or it turns out my father.

Yeah.

That's nice shading on that moment for the character because in the moment I was reading it as almost this materialist argument that money immediately changes you and that she turns into Tanya as soon as she has money. But that's how it feels. That's the pinch in the moment. But now...

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Chelsea says, stop thinking about the life you didn't have and look at the one you do have. And I feel like, especially in the moment, coming from that, like, beam of light entity who is giving you this incredible redemptive wisdom, I would have accepted it.

Thinking it through and talking about it, I like this idea that, in fact, it is about her evolution of character. Yeah.

And for sure at the moment, I would have probably then vacillated and like fell backwards and like gone back and forth in that kind of torment. But no, in the moment, I would have been like, you're right, we're at breakfast. Let's just like get some, get these donuts and get out of here.

Thank you.

And coming up in a bonus episode very soon, we'll be sitting down with White Lotus creator Mike White to talk about the entire series. So look out for that. It opens with like a dawn, right? The whole episode, and you kind of do the carousel of all the characters on their last day.

Thank you.

So in that kind of round robin where we're seeing everybody again for the last time, maybe some of them forever for the last time, you have the monk from the monastery talking about, we wake up every day looking with anxiety, looking for resolution, looking for answers, and basically, what if there is no resolution?

This is true to life. Your character also is like, get those lizards out of my room.

Thank you, Natasha, for coming on the show. That was nice chatting. It was fun to see you again.

Well. Belinda was in those streets. Yes. Yeah. She had also done the math on her son, Zion.

That was really fun. Yeah, she's delightful.

It's like, that's everybody's fantasy. It's not to buy a boat. It's not to buy a big house on the hill. It's just like to have time to do whatever you want. Yeah.

So many questions. If you keep looking for resolution, that causes suffering. So what if there is no resolution? Which is an interesting way to obviously open the episode where there is going to be some kind of resolution for this story. Right. But so then the question about it is sort of like, how are the characters going to be resolved?

Are the ones who think they need resolution actually going to be choosing the wrong path, which is ultimately what happens, right? And it's the ones who accept that there may not be a resolution that actually come out ahead, that come through unscathed.

I don't know...

I don't like her anymore.

You need to man up and then I'll be with you.

I know. Oh, she plays such the ingenue, but she knows exactly what she's doing.

He does. And I feel—I mean, he seems pleased with himself, although I suspect— No, he's going to be unhappy his whole life. He's going to be—yeah, right. Yeah, he's like, this is not the way that I wanted to succeed.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, let's talk about Belinda and Zion.

They have a whole—I was really enjoying their return to Gary's house.

And they show up, and then Zion's like— Zion's crushing it. NBA baby. Yeah. It's like, let's just let the businessmen talk. And it turns out he's an incredible negotiator.

And I'm Josh Behrman. And I'm feeling sad. Yeah.

Five mil. That's the number he throws out. And then it was so satisfying when she leaves, you think it's genuine, and then in the hallway, she's like, no, no, no.

We could kill him. And then you're like, oh, they're a team. That's very satisfying.

I thought that was kind of great, though, in terms of... I know.

I want her to take him with her.

So it's like you realize in the moment, oh, no, it's happening. She's doing the same thing to him. My circumstances have changed. Now I'm rich. She's like, don't I get to just be rich for a minute?

I don't want to go start a massage. And I'm like, yeah, that's true. Okay. But then she immediately takes on the values of the rich and is like, okay, I'll see

She starts speaking elliptically and then is like, and I can't ever see you again because she could instead just be like, why don't you come with me and we'll go on a world tour sex vacation.

I know. I know. It's a different feeling from the other two finales. Yeah. Where everybody in both cases like kind of airport reunions. There's like the different kind of resolution. And here was a lot of bodies. Yeah.

It's like the minute you get some money, you're not the same.

Technical conversation about money laundering, logistics, and how does that work? What are the tax implications for Greg slash Gary?

Cut a third out of that right away from your 1099. Yeah, exactly. So it's more like three and a half million.

Right. Well, we've seen sort of Belinda's state of unease and kind of the struggle. So it's much more satisfying, I think, because we want her to win. And also, also this season, she's saying, oh, you know how to treat a broke down bitch. And like, can't I just get a break? You know, and so she's kind of in this beleaguered state.

So it's earned the satisfaction to see her become a cunning, rich bitch and win.

Piper, who reveals at breakfast, she can hack it.

And her mother basically gives this like ethical rationale for being content with your station. She's like, we have it so good. And if we don't enjoy it, it's an offense to the people who will never live this way. Right. And she's like, and then that's like, that's sort of the capper on Piper's emotional reveal.

She goes, but she reverts to, you know.

Yeah, it was melancholy, you know.

Also, while Piper's revealing that she can't, she's not going to be able to hack it at the monastery, then Papa Fernholz is like, oh, shit, I guess I got to poison her, too.