Joseph Cox

these sorts of phones. And for years, if not more than a decade at this point, the AFP in particular has been running into these phones again and again and again. So the idea of a backdoor in an encrypted phone is incredibly attractive to them.

I mean, what I've been told is that when the AFP agents were told about this possibility and the plan to go ahead, they looked like they were kids on Christmas morning.

I mean, what I've been told is that when the AFP agents were told about this possibility and the plan to go ahead, they looked like they were kids on Christmas morning.

So it starts when Afgoo, the creator of Anom, offers the phones to a particular phone seller slash drug trafficker in Australia. His name is Domenico Catanzarati. And he used to sell Phantom Secure phones, one of those earlier companies. And when that company was shut down, He obviously doesn't really have any phones to sell.

So it starts when Afgoo, the creator of Anom, offers the phones to a particular phone seller slash drug trafficker in Australia. His name is Domenico Catanzarati. And he used to sell Phantom Secure phones, one of those earlier companies. And when that company was shut down, He obviously doesn't really have any phones to sell.

Well, lo and behold, here comes AFKU with what looks like it's going to be the hottest new phone on the market. So he provides some of those phones to Catanzarati and just starts using them and just starts talking about them and spreading them around. I think initially the phones were actually just given... for free to Catanzarate.

Well, lo and behold, here comes AFKU with what looks like it's going to be the hottest new phone on the market. So he provides some of those phones to Catanzarati and just starts using them and just starts talking about them and spreading them around. I think initially the phones were actually just given... for free to Catanzarate.

It's almost like a sort of Uber technique, Silicon Valley growth technique. I don't know, just get it out there for free. And we'll figure out the laws, we'll figure out the market later. But we just want to get devices into people's hands, basically.

It's almost like a sort of Uber technique, Silicon Valley growth technique. I don't know, just get it out there for free. And we'll figure out the laws, we'll figure out the market later. But we just want to get devices into people's hands, basically.

At least for the Australians, the AFP, it was relatively real-time, instantaneous. You know, they could see that, oh, the Comacheros are talking about beating up this guy. Oh, this biker gang is talking about... doing a weapons drop off of like high caliber assault rifles at this time in this location. It was really like peeling back the curtain on these conversations.

At least for the Australians, the AFP, it was relatively real-time, instantaneous. You know, they could see that, oh, the Comacheros are talking about beating up this guy. Oh, this biker gang is talking about... doing a weapons drop off of like high caliber assault rifles at this time in this location. It was really like peeling back the curtain on these conversations.

At the start, the AFP, as far as I know, was simply collecting the intelligence. There is this massive trade-off constantly throughout this entire story, which is that, okay, you have a backdoor into a phone, but how do you act on that? Do you act on it? And when do you act on that information?

At the start, the AFP, as far as I know, was simply collecting the intelligence. There is this massive trade-off constantly throughout this entire story, which is that, okay, you have a backdoor into a phone, but how do you act on that? Do you act on it? And when do you act on that information?

Because if you go too loud too quickly, it's going to become obvious to the criminals that something bad is going on, at least for them.

Because if you go too loud too quickly, it's going to become obvious to the criminals that something bad is going on, at least for them.

Yeah. It got to the point where the people I've spoken to, the law enforcement officials around the world, they had to do stuff like basically lie. They had to make up a story where it's like, okay, we are finally going to strike on this drug lab or this drug warehouse or whatever, because it's so large and we have to act, but we're going to write the intelligence in such a way that

Yeah. It got to the point where the people I've spoken to, the law enforcement officials around the world, they had to do stuff like basically lie. They had to make up a story where it's like, okay, we are finally going to strike on this drug lab or this drug warehouse or whatever, because it's so large and we have to act, but we're going to write the intelligence in such a way that

It looks like it's coming from an informant or a source. There's going to be no mention of a NOM, no mention of a backdoor. And from a law enforcement perspective, that's great. Okay, we managed to get the drugs and arrest the people or whatever while without revealing... you know, the secret about a norm. On the flip side, there is a justice issue there.

It looks like it's coming from an informant or a source. There's going to be no mention of a NOM, no mention of a backdoor. And from a law enforcement perspective, that's great. Okay, we managed to get the drugs and arrest the people or whatever while without revealing... you know, the secret about a norm. On the flip side, there is a justice issue there.

You know, that's basically parallel construction. It's very complicated. It gets very nuanced. But I do think that civil libertarians would be a little bit aghast at sort of the trade-offs that were being made on a daily basis.