Johnny Diamond
Appearances
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
And the reason we are talking right now is because within the last few days, Mr Bolsonaro has been formally charged by Brazil's chief prosecutor with attempting a coup in 2022. And that's nothing to do with the storming of various buildings in Brasilia, nothing to do with him casting doubt on the voting systems that led to that eight-year ban. It's something different.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
What are the specific allegations against him?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
People know who he is in a way that they don't know the names of other former presidents. How is it that he made his name in Brazilian politics?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
OK, there are clearly a fair number of hurdles, to say the least, to Jair Bolsonaro returning to power. We've been dancing, Ione, around these parallels with Donald Trump. President Trump made a comeback, despite all the problems that he faced. Is Donald Trump's comeback something that Bolsonaro has talked about? Is it something he's reflected upon?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
Is it something that has obviously emboldened him?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
I love Trump because he's going to make America great again.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
I mean, is there anything Donald Trump can do to help Jair Bolsonaro? Is he just a sort of vocal ally or is there pressure he can put on Brazil?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
Did he look much like Bolsonaro?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
He did get the ban on standing in the next election lifted if he got past the charges that have been laid against him in the last few days over an alleged coup attempt. Is the popularity still there? Does he still have that astonishing support that he once had, the kind of support, of course, that in the US lifted Donald Trump to that comeback?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
He may yet have a chance to make Brazil great again. Watch this space. Ione, thank you so much for guiding us through the fascinating Bolsonaro story. Great to talk to you.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
And thanks so much to you for listening. If you want to get in touch, you can email us at theglobalstoryatbbc.com, wherever you're listening in the world. We will catch you next time.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
Well, that's right.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
You draw the parallel with Donald Trump with those assassination attempts, but there are political parallels and parallels between the sort of electoral machines that they ran as well, aren't there?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
He inspires passion and loathing in equal measure. He rose to the presidency as an outsider, dominating social media and railing against progressive elites. And when he lost power in the election, he refused to concede. Instead, his supporters stormed the Capitol, falsely claiming the election had been stolen. But he is not Donald Trump. He is Jair Bolsonaro, until 2022, the President of Brazil.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
And he is, for want of a better phrase, a sort of a man's man, isn't he? He projects a kind of meat-eating macho thing, which doesn't leave much space for doubt about how he wants to live his life and how he thinks other people should live theirs.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
So he overturns, you say, four terms of victories from the left when he wins the presidency in 2018. And there's a sense, I think, at that point, that he's, I mean, pretty much unstoppable, but that fades away pretty quickly.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
And that was reflected in the 2022 presidential election, which, though he lost, it was more fingernail loss than landslide, wasn't it?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
The similarities led to the nickname Trump of the Tropics. The relationship between the two men is so strong that Bolsonaro was invited to Trump's inauguration. He said he was so excited that he'd stop taking Viagra. So, with Trump back in office, is Bolsonaro on his way back? His supporters, and he has lots, would love that.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
Did Jair Bolsonaro go to the inauguration ceremony where Lula was inaugurated, where he became president?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
So we've got parallels between A plenty. An election that Bolsonaro refuses to concede in the same way, of course, that Donald Trump refused to concede the 2020 election. You've got the supporters storming government buildings. Again, the parallel with what happened in 2021 in the US. But there is a difference, isn't there? Because Jair Bolsonaro had comments to say earlier.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
about what happened in the capital, Brasilia, didn't he? He condemned the attack. And he said he had no responsibility for it.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
Another difference, of course, is the kind of democracy that there is in the two countries. I mean, Brazil's democracy is a lot younger than America's democracy, isn't it? Its democracy, you could well argue, is a lot more fragile.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
But he's been barred from running for election by the courts, and now he's been accused of planning a coup. Is this the end for Jair Bolsonaro? With me today is the BBC South America correspondent, Ione Wells. She's in Sao Paulo. Hi, Ione. Hi, Jonny. Jair Bolsonaro is a curiosity because he has a very high name recognition for the president or the former president of a South American nation.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
So we've looked at the rise and fall of Jair Bolsonaro. Next, the charges over an alleged coup plot to seize power in Brazil. This is The Global Story. We bring you one big international story in detail five days a week. Follow or subscribe wherever you listen. With me is our South America correspondent, Irony Wells.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
So this week, Jair Bolsonaro was charged with masterminding and leading a far-right conspiracy to cling to power through a military coup after he failed to win the 2022 election. But The curiosity is this is not actually the start of his legal troubles. He already has a seemingly insuperable obstacle to actually getting back into office because he was barred from it in 2023, wasn't he?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Bolsonaro: Is it all over for the 'Trump of the Tropics'?
What was that about?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
How important in the relationship between Donald Trump and Mohammed bin Salman is Donald Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner? He seems to have been behind the scenes linking the two men, and he seems to be particularly close as well to Mohammed bin Salman.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
You mentioned... the golf championship. It may seem to some like a diversion, this new golf competition that the Saudis have set up, but it's not a diversion, is it?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
Now he has made Riyadh a place where the world comes to try and do deals. So how did Mohammed bin Salman go from pariah to peacemaker? With me today is Jonathan Rugman, journalist, author and the producer of the BBC TV series The Kingdom, about the life of the Saudi Crown Prince. It's a pleasure, Jonny. Can we start with the man?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
It's part of the other bit of Mohammed bin Salman or one of the other bits, which is this soft power, which is part of, some would say the modernization, some would say the sports washing, whatever you want to call it, but it's part of the change of that he has brought about. It's an important part of what he's trying to do, and the golf is just one part of it, isn't it?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
One of the things that happens when I talk with friends about... Saudi Arabia and about Mohammed bin Salman is they say, oh, you're always going on about the negatives. You never talk, you media people, about what he has done inside Saudi Arabia, about the modernization, about the liberation of women, about the blossoming of culture.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
It's true, isn't it, that Saudi Arabia is a very different place from what it was 10 years ago. I mean, certainly 20 years ago. It's radically different, isn't it?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
The reason we're talking today, Jonathan, is because all of a sudden... Riyadh is this enormous diplomatic stage. First, the meeting between the Russians and the Americans, the first meeting in however many years, then the meeting between the Americans and the Ukrainians. And it's no coincidence that it's happened in Riyadh. There's a reason for it. What does it say, do you think?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
about the position that Saudi holds in the world and that Mohammed bin Salman has managed to create?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
Given what you understand about MBS, both his personality, his vision, let's be honest, also his ego, Do you think the positioning of him and his country at a sort of diplomatic center or the attempt to is about ego and position and Saudi Arabia sort of coming of age globally? Or is it about what he can then leverage from that, whether it's business or personal or consolidation of his own power?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
I mean, how much do we know of what Mohammed bin Salman is like as a person?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
Do you admire him?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
Thank you so much for your time. It's a pleasure, Jonny. And thanks so much to you for listening. We're back at the same time each weekday on the BBC World Service. You can also listen as a podcast. Just search for The Global Story wherever you get your BBC pods. If you want to get in touch, you can email us at theglobalstory at bbc.com.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
Wherever you're listening in the world, we'll catch you next time.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
I just want to clear up this question of his role. He is the crown prince, and yet he is constantly described as the de facto ruler, the effective ruler. This is because, what, his father is now essentially so old that he is no longer running the show and that Mohammed bin Salman has taken on the mantle of ruler.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
Let's talk about some of the things that took place. First of all, that conflict with Yemen, how he ended up putting together a coalition to go to war in Yemen against what were then known as the Houthi rebels. This is 2015. First of all, the process by which he got Saudi Arabia into that conflict was fairly curious, wasn't it?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
Here's my colleague, Jonny Diamond.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
It's not just beyond Saudi's borders that he acted out of kilter with all the normal traditions of Saudi rule.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
There was this astonishing event in 2017 with some of the richest of Saudi Arabia's business people and leaders, all, what, invited to the Ritz and then held there? Can you take me through it?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
When it comes to silencing people, the one thing that so many people remember, that many listeners will remember as well, will be the silencing of one man, the Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi, who was killed in 2018 in what was very clearly stated by a number of different intelligence sources as being on the orders of Mohammed bin Salman. What happened there and why?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
Twice now in the last few weeks, the Saudi capital of Riyadh has played host to the biggest movers and shakers of the war in Ukraine. Russia, America and, of course, the Ukrainians themselves. Why Riyadh? because of one man's influence, Saudi Arabia's effective ruler, Mohammed bin Salman, known near universally by his initials MBS.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
So by 2019, 2020, Mohammed bin Salman has consolidated power domestically. But internationally, he's in trouble because of the assassination of Jamal Khashoggi.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
But there was this horrible decision, wasn't there, for Joe Biden? What do I do when I meet him? Do I shake his hand, even though I've called him a pariah just a couple of years beforehand? And we ended up with what? We ended up with a fist bump somehow, which looked so strange.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
So we've heard about the rapid rise and more tempered fall of Mohammed bin Salman. Next, how has he repositioned himself as host to some of the most important meetings of our times?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
You're listening to The Global Story from the BBC World Service. There's a fresh episode available as a podcast each weekday. Just search for The Global Story wherever you get your podcasts. With me is Jonathan Rugman.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
Just a few years ago, he was publicly identified as the man who ordered the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, tortured, killed and dismembered in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul. As a result, MBS was called a pariah by no less than Joe Biden. But he's also the man who's driven the modernisation and diversification of the desert kingdom.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
We've mentioned Donald Trump a little bit as we've talked, but perhaps what we haven't made clear is how early on Mohammed bin Salman and Donald Trump built a face-to-face relationship because... It was, to re-add, rather bizarrely in many people's eyes, that Donald Trump went first. It was his first international trip, wasn't it, in his first term?
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Mohammed bin Salman from pariah to peacemaker
And he built a relationship that has been very strong ever since.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Antibiotics - A casualty of war?
Here's my colleague, Jonny Diamond.
Global News Podcast
The Global Story: Antibiotics - A casualty of war?
If you enjoyed listening, there's a new episode every weekday. Just search for The Global Story wherever you get your BBC podcasts. And be sure to click subscribe or follow. We'll have another edition of The Global News podcast later. Until then, goodbye.
Global News Podcast
Ukraine: 'Moscow bombs boarding school'
I should add, this is quite personal for you, isn't it? You've had a passion for orchids for many a moon.
Global News Podcast
Millions hit by huge winter storm in US
You clearly admire one side of the man, his restless success, his engineering brilliance, the way he has driven his projects through. And you say, you know, Europe could do with some of that fire. On the other hand, from what I know of you... His politics are a long way away from yours.
Global News Podcast
Millions hit by huge winter storm in US
How do you bring those two together, the politics you really don't like at all and the success that you so admire?
Global News Podcast
Israeli airstrikes have hit several targets inside Yemen
Does it feel to you that it is taking less time, that the pace of innovation is picking up, or is it impossible to tell?
Global News Podcast
Israeli airstrikes have hit several targets inside Yemen
And is it your belief or faith that the new drugs about which people are concerned over cost will relatively swiftly bring down associated costs of all these conditions and therefore pay for themselves? Or do you think there's going to be a very difficult balancing act in the years to come?