Joanna Robinson
Appearances
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And I think in a meta way, it'll be interesting to see how they partition the flashbacks out because, yeah, there is that sense of, like, the Pedro Bella magic. Yeah. That we will, of course, be missing. So would the temptation be to do a flashback every episode so you have at least a scene with Pedro Pascal in every episode of the season of The Last of Us?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Or save it for later so it packs more of a wallop? Like, how are they going to do that, I think, is interesting to me. Agreed. Okay, last email. Yes. That I loved. Came from our listener, Claire. who said, I recently started reading The Body Keeps the Score in working to gain more knowledge about my own trauma.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And it's been enlightening in terms of The Last of Us 2 as a story that's about the ripple effects and cycles perpetuated by trauma as much as it is a story about forgiveness, though many people mistake it for being a story about revenge. You guys are crazy.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
crazy busy with your podcast, Saturated Lives, but I felt it could be interesting if you guys would read bits of the book to better contextualize Ellie's journey.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
One particular thing that jumped out to me in The Body Keeps the Score, the author talks about a Vietnam vet who committed unspeakable and despicable acts of violence against children slash sexual assault in a village immediately after his squad was ambushed in a rice paddy and all his friends were killed in front of him in a
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
It made me understand better the despicable behavior we witness from Ellie in terms of being a symptom of her fully unchecked and unprocessed PTSD after witnessing Joel's death.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
The book also talks about how this physiological aspect of PTSD results in an almost addiction-like tendencies and is why survivors of trauma will often recreate the trauma in a perpetuating cycle because of their altered brain chemistry. So Ellie isn't just brutally murdering people as an act of revenge, but because her brain is full.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
physically craving and compelling her to essentially reenact the traumatic violence of Joel's death over and over again. I could go on, but we'll leave it there for now. To Mallory, I advise taking care of yourself mentally while playing the game. It really wears you down towards the end. I thought that was fascinating.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I was thinking a lot about the fact that in the first season, we talked a lot about the Tim O'Brien book, The Things They Carried, and this idea of soldiers and the items that they have with them, the trauma that they carry, but the physical items that they carry with them. And when we were talking about what's in Ellie's backpack, what's in Joel's backpack.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
So this idea and invoking Eugene's life as a Vietnam vet inside of this episode just made me think of, yeah, Vietnam is such a fascinating place. That's a cold word for it. It's such an indelible moment in terms of American unjustified or justified American violence. And something that creatives, filmmakers, writers, psychologists have been grappling with ever since.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And especially for people who are around Neil and Craig's age and stuff like that. That that would be the kind of psychological...
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
impulse that they would be maybe interested in exploring so i've not read this book i have all you know it's it's a it's a classic and um uh if i if i can check out parts of it i will but thank you so much um to claire for writing it about it and putting it on my mind i will be thinking about it i think going forward so great emails from
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Coming through with mushroom recipes and shimmer concerns and the effects of PTSD on the brain.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
We've got a button mash Last of Us dive coming over on the ringer verse. We've got Rob and Joanna. That's my name in the third person over on the prestige TV feed. doing some last of us check-in. So there is a lot going on in the content space. Thunderbolts is around the corner. Wow, Ruben. Yeah. How can folks keep track of all of that?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Definitely a deep dive from Joanna Robinson to Mallory Rubin. We knew it.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Yeah. About two hours usually. But this was, this is a biggie. All right. So thank you. We'll be back. Obviously the Andor with more The Last of Us. Thank you to the whole crew on the pod here today. We've got you, John Richters, you're Steven Allman's, you're Carlos, you're a bogus, you're a dinner around pals. And of course, you'll be a dinner on social, uh, our Salt Lake city crew.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Thank you so much for being here with us. You're the best. Um, anything else I need to say before we go? Did I do it?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
That's a wrap. I love you. Perfect. Remember, the fungus lives too. And we'll see you soon. Bye.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Hello, welcome back to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson. Joining me today, she's not crying yet. It's just allergies. It's Mallory Rubin.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I think, thank you again for sharing that. Please cry the whole episode. I will support you. I might. Please stay hydrated, though. Plenty of water here. I love that you were thinking about Bill and Frank a lot. I was thinking a lot about Kathleen and Henry. I was thinking a lot about that stretch of season one and how, what a clever job all of those stories did. Because, you know,
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
They made the first game without knowing they were making the second game, but they made the first season knowing that they were making a second season. So they made the first season establishing a lot of these themes that are going to be resonant in the second season. So with Kathleen and Henry, a story that was expanded from a story inside of the game, and this idea of, you know...
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Well, is Kathleen wrong? Kathleen is hurting, and Kathleen is seeking vengeance for a loss that she's experienced. Was Henry wrong? No, Henry is trying to protect the most important person to him. And so inside of that... Inside of that sequence, it was like a little easier for us to understand the right and wrong because kids die too. They die all the time.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
One of the times to be us. Yeah, charred and crispy. Both Mallory and I had a that-looks-tasty reaction to the charred bloater.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
It was like a tough thing for Kathleen to say. But casting someone like Melanie Linsky, who is similar, I would say, to someone like Caitlin Deaver in this episode, is so good at showing us the soft underbelly of...
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
calcifying rage you know that that there's in at the center of that is a hurt right is a tenderness um that you're trying to sort of um paste over with these more these harder tougher feelings and approaches yeah and posturing almost and so i think i i think yeah
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
It was so clever the way that they expanded certain things in the first season to set us up for thinking about those themes from the jump in a show like this.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Yeah. The, like, shelves. Okay. So, this is also a battle episode. So, we knew, as people who knew what was coming for Joel, that this... Well, we assumed. You assume as soon as Ellie starts, like, running... Sorry. You assume as soon as Abby starts, like, running down the snow. You're like, well... This is the beginning of the episode, so we're pretty sure we know where this is going.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Maybe they can stretch it to episode three, but it's happening. The Battle of Jackson is a show invention, and something that Neil talked about in interviews and on the official podcast is that
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
He always kind of wanted to do something like this, but they were so firmly rooted in POV that, you know, you kind of hear stories about Raiders attacking Jackson, but they didn't do a full scale like we're in Jackson because the show is like wanting to stick with the core characters. Yeah. So we get loss on a personal level for Ellie, and then we get loss on a community level.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
This idea of community. So we recorded our episode last week without being able to hear the official podcast, but listening to them on the official podcast talk about how important community... Community is kind of the biggest word for them this season, and so I really watched this episode through that lens in many ways. So the community of Jackson... What is your community?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
They were sizzling in a way that's not a charred. It's like a we-put-some-grease-in-the-pan with-these-mushrooms moment. Amazing.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Is it a Jackson community? Or does it, when push comes to shove, become a Maria and Tommy and their kid community? What is Ellie O. Jackson? What is she just O. Joel? When you have a character like Jessie who is so community-minded. All of that's interesting. The Fireflies themselves are, of course, a community. Or the Salt Lake City crew or the Wolves, whoever you prefer to call them.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And then the Cordyceps. community, of course. They love a group hang. This is a big swing. And there's a couple, they haven't talked about it in this sense, but there are a couple TV storytelling or emotional beat storytelling reasons to do this. It gives you a release of a kind.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
If the tension of Joel and Abby and then Ellie is too unbearable, there is an action movie happening in Jackson and Tommy is like using a flamethrower to char a bloater. So there's that. Yeah. It's the consequences of Joel's decision. Let's assume that the cure was surefire out of Ellie, which it wasn't.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
But let's assume that Joel could have stopped all of this by sacrificing Ellie and chose not to. That's sort of the math that we have to, the moral math that we have to do. Yeah. A horde, a double horde, really, attacking Jackson is a large scale consequence of Joel's singular decision at the end of season one. I will say for me, like, I didn't dislike it.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
It felt a little thronesy in a way that I'm not sure, like... I feel like I wanted to just focus on Joel personally, but I understand from a storytelling point of view why they want to sort of balance the equation. Malia Rubin, what was your take on the battle stuff?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Yeah, the majority of what I saw from people, even game players, was like, that was hella sick, bro. Watching Tommy Char bloater was... And a lot of people were talking about the specific way that the flame thrower pack and you can... Let me know if you agree.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
You know, like almost being out of fuel, just having a little bit left and that being the thing that takes the bloater down felt like a lot like gameplay to people. So like, I think people really liked it. Yeah. players and non-players alike. I think there are other changes that are sort of, you know, causing questions for people, but I don't know my sense.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Monday morning is that it's not the battle. I think, I think you make a great point. And I think also I'm struggling to make this connection. And I, because I didn't hear Craig and Neil make it, I am unwilling to put my foot on it, but I think that like this idea of like, If we want to make Jackson a person, who's Jackson in this comp here? Is Jackson Ellie? Has Ellie been sort of...
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
irrevocably breached in a way that like you know um forever changed is a sense of security is is joel such a pillar of this community now that ripping joel out rips something out of jackson you know like what um everyone is rattled in a way something has happened to not just ellie but to everyone right that changes forever their idea of how the universe works What is safety?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
What is my safe harbor? My safe harbor is Joel. And even despite our frictions recently, if my safe harbor is Joel and Joel is gone, if our safe harbor is the wall and a bunch of dead things flung themselves against it, and also we dropped flaming barrels of... right next to the wooden walls of Jackson. Some notes on that. What does that do for your sense of what day-to-day life is?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I actually think my favorite part of the battle episode was the way in which it would— throw Joel off of his game and off of his guard. So as he walks into the situation with the fireflies, with the wolves, that he's got one eye out the window on Jackson and he's just sort of like, we gotta go, you know, we gotta go. And doesn't see the noose closing in around him. Okay. Okay.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Spoiler warning. We already mentioned it, but here we go again. Everything up through Season 2, Episode 2 of The Last of Us. If this is the first time you're joining us this season, we're doing it a little differently than we did last season in that we are including a little spoiler section at the end of each episode where we look for...
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Um, let's pause from this misery for just like a quick little two hit on the mailbag to say, um, I mentioned this in our daredevil pod, but just in case you're listening to this and not our daredevil pod, um, I did ask, um, Last week for people to, in the game, it was a moose instead of a bear outside of the grocery store in the first episode.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And so is there a good moose pun that can match the barbecue effort from Dina? And a ton of you wrote in with great amuse-bouche jokes. Sensational. And really great stuff from you guys. Really genuinely. Bad babies that come through every time. 10 out of 10, no notes. A bunch of you wrote in with that. So like, you're all quite clever. Okay. And then Mallory, we got many emails from people.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Star Wars celebration in Japan over the weekend. And we got a lot of Star Wars info. This is obviously, we're going to talk way more about Star Wars on the Andorra pod later this week. But I just, I felt like in amidst all of the misery, the people deserve to know your feelings about the reveal that we will be getting loft kittens in Ahsoka season two.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Oh. It's like trouble with tribbles when making love kittens. All right, so that's just, we'll talk about maybe, we'll talk about that more on Andor perhaps, but we'll be back with, we'll be back in full-blown Star Wars mode later this week. I'm very excited for that. Let's go to our episode breakdown. Okay. No cold open, which is not holding unusual.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I had to go back and check like the beginnings of every episode. Cause I was like, do they usually have it? No, I don't know why this felt like a weird moment to me, but I was just like, I think because I was like so certain this was the episode and I was like, Oh, we're just, Oh, it's we're off to the races. Here we go.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
But we do start with, we start with Abby's dream. And as we mentioned last week, being this far inside of Abby's head is a fairly sizable departure from the game. And some gamers are not enjoying it. I don't mind it because it means more time with Kayla Deamer and I am personally all for it. And I really loved this.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
We talk about some of the adaptive changes that have repercussions going forward. We'll be talking about adaptive changes to the video game throughout. But in terms of the ones that include information yet to come in the show and in the game, that will be tucked away in a spoiler section at the end. We will give you so much warning.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
So we've got Abby's hand on the gun, the firefly medallion, and then the Abby, the present day Abby is observing five years ago. Abby, um, Um, 19 year old Abby. Uh, so like 24 year old Abby is looking at her and I, I, there's just something very subtle about the way that they made Caitlin Deaver look younger. Totally. Um, inside of the scene as she's sort of interacting with herself.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Um, and our president, Abby says he's dead. And then 19-year-old Abby says, I don't know you. And I loved that. That was actually like a top five moment of this episode to me. This idea that like 19-year-old Abby's like, I don't even recognize who this is, who you are, who you've become. Yeah. And then Abby, present day Abby says, don't go in there. Stop it. I'm telling you, go back.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
His brains are on the floor. We know this is her dad. We could maybe have figured it out from context of what we had seen so far, but we know this by the end of the episode. This is her dad. We hear faint screaming and crying and dream Abby now is crying, remembering this loss of innocence moment for her younger self. And I'm thinking also of like, yeah,
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Ellie on the other side of that door hearing screaming, like Abby screaming and grunting as she's pummeling Joel towards the end of this episode. That doorway, that liminal space threshold crossing moment for a more innocent, even though Ellie's not that innocent, character. Yeah. Something that Caitlin Deaver told in her weekly is she says about Abby, she so badly wants her old life back.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
She so badly wants the situation to not be what it is. And what Neil Druckmann said on the official podcast is he says, this is grief for Abby combined with injustice. And we'll talk much more about that notion of injustice later. Quote, something that is driving her mad has infected her, has infected her dreams. Yeah. Craig and Neil love to talk about a human emotion as an infection.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
That is their favorite thing. How did you feel about this dream sequence? How do you feel about all of these? How do you feel about being this far inside of Abby's POV in the show versus the game?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Mallory and I may have gone overboard last week giving a spoiler warning.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Yeah, the book was better. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Now you know. Now you know why we did that. We did get an email from someone saying like, I always listen to your spoiler section, but something
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
been about last week i was like good yeah good okay that was the plan okay so um that is what is going on today um we are doing our best to get through the source material i took the cheater route and i've watched a cinematic playthrough of the show well i just want to talk about the comp like the comparable hours invested so i have finished every method of consumption is valid
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
It was really funny on the Prestige feed talking to Rob about this last week because listening to Rob talk about it, I was just like, oh, I recognize this. I'm not feeling it, but I recognize this. And it was, like, so interesting to be on the other side of that. And I am very empathetic to that as a reaction. But I do think your point that Craig and Neil have said –
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
On the official podcast, the official reason why they've made these changes is that notion that you're talking about where if you're playing a video game and you're playing as a character that's playable and your choices are their choices, you have an affinity to them that cannot quite be matched by watching a show. There's just a natural affinity you have as...
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
you're trying to escape snow zombies and they're trying to escape snow zombies, like all that sort of stuff like that. And so absent that, there has to be another access point to this character. So they're letting us inside Abby a bit earlier than happens in the game. And I think...
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
But I think a reason that they probably won't ever say is the reason, and I think this is actually a very reasonable reason to do this, is Laura Bailey, the actress who played Abby in the game, received an inconceivable amount of vile hatred for the fact that there is a storytelling decision that her character killed another character. Right.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And so I think... And as part of the gameplay, the revelation of why happens later. And that... unwittingly set that actress up for this nasty exposure to abuse that nobody deserves. Yeah. If any of these moves are made to be somewhat more protective of Caitlin Deaver now that they know how some unhinged individuals might react on the internet, I would not begrudge them doing that. I agree.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I don't think they're going to state that as a reason why they changed some storytelling approaches here, but I think that's a really reasonable thing to do.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I have finished my watch through Mallory, who is committing like, I don't know, quintuple the amount of time that I have is not quite done right with her playthrough, but I want it to be done.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Yeah. Yeah, without getting into specifics, I think that, like... the way that they are breaking up the story in over the course of two seasons of television makes it kind of prohibitive to hold back the things that the way that they do in the game. So that's, you know, trying to keep things vague, but I think that that absolutely has to be a factor. All right.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
So let's talk about the Salt Lake City crew. They're camping on the lodge. They're sleeping fully dressed. They are ready to go at a moment's notice. Right. And this is their sort of like later Joel's like military, like this is their military training as part of it.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I don't know. This is part of the reason I'm not making it more than a day. Uh, freezing in there. That's the thing that would stop me from him.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Here we go. Um, okay. So Owen is looking at Jackson and it is frigid in the lodge and Manny is freaked out about how big Jackson is. And Abby is trying to warm Owen up. Um, Vibes informed by gameplay, but vibes between Abby and Owen here.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Is that the community that I'm a part of or am I part of the Mushroom Network? Let's tune in to find out. Here we are today with you on a Monday morning. Post-Easter, post a big episode of television to talk to you about season two, episode two of The Last of Us. Guess what? There will be a big spoiler warning at the end, but I'm just going to go ahead and drop one here.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Yes. They have of all the bonds that Abby has inside of this group. But there is this like notion that like, Owen as the tallest masculine member of this group is like the leader, but that Abby is actually the leader, that she is the engine. There are like concessions he's making towards her, but there are like plays she makes towards him where she's like, but then we're going to go back, right?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Like then we have to do this, right? And when she leaves to go out on patrol to give him a moment, like he's the guy who comes up to the plan, right? That's his role. And when she leaves, everyone turns to him and he's like, don't worry, my plan is we convince her not to do this, you know? So like Owen leader with the lowercase L and then Abby leader with like a capital L sort of.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
behave other people look up to you she's like you're gonna call the shots once you're on the road and you see a trail of blood we had a convenient for a battle episode rundown of the logistics of jackson which may help later as we track the action of the battle four main gates no other ins or outs mounted patrols guys are trained towers linking each exit they've got some vets down there for sure they've also got dags you like dags all right so they've got dogs okay so
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Vets is an incredibly interesting word. And I think, you know, we're about to watch a battle and watch a bunch of people become veterans of the Battle of Jackson Hole, right? Like that is just about to happen. We had a conversation with Jesse and Ellie later about Eugene as a Vietnam War vet. What is it like to survive war and then... go out the way that Eugene did.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
It's still a mystery to us how exactly that happened. And so this idea of like, what are you a veteran of? And we talked about this a lot when we talked about generational, and we talked about this last week, generational approaches to the apocalypse, right? What have you lived through? Are you Maria and Tommy's kiddo who hasn't had to live through any of this? Right.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Are you the Salt Lake City crew who had to live through what happened at the hospital? Are you Joel and Tommy? Are you Eugene who went through a whole like other war before even the mushroom apocalypse came around? I just thought that word of vets was pretty interesting and loaded, you know?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Of this endeavor. What I like is that there are levels inside of this, right? Like Mel being the most squeamish, Manny being sort of the closest to Abby in terms of his like violent vindictiveness and stuff like that. Manny's loving it. Yeah, Manny's like, who else can I kick in the ribs, please let me.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
uh we get a reminder that they're looking for joel again in the game we don't know exactly that they're looking for joel but they say he and it's like how many he's are like who do we think they're looking for if it's not joel could it have been earl earl the dipshit who shot himself in the leg top episode for earl he'll take himself out thank you very much No hunting party needed.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
When Abby's outside, the extreme cold, which I think is driven home even more than it is in the game of how frigid it is inside and out, right? Even inside of this lodge where there is this giant fireplace, it is freezing. Yeah. I love this moment outside when Abby is talking to herself. And that is very gameplay, right?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Of like this interior monologue that you as playing Abby in this moment are hearing. Did you make anything about Owen being a coffee guy?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
When Quig said that, I was like, that's true of the game. I don't think that's true of the show. But I think that's true of the game. That if Abby had just shot Joel and left, then there's no real ability to track them necessarily. Ellie gets there too late. But yeah, Dina's there as a witness and gets everyone's name. Sure does. Yeah. Here was my sad thought.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And like, I know it's hours between when Abby goes out and when she comes back. Right. But that didn't happen in the real time in the show or whatever. But like, do you think the lot is still kind of smelled of coffee? And Joel's like, oh, my God, coffee right before he dies.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
What does the afterlife smell like? I got to smoke coffee once more. Maybe. Okay. Let's go now to what I'm calling the party emotional hangover sequence of the episode. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We get knocked in Ellie's door. The camera lingers on the guitar strung on a stand in her room. Last time we saw it, Joel was playing it on the porch of the house.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
So something has happened to get the guitar inside of her room. And we don't know what.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Okay, so this is where, barring a conversation between Tommy and Joel, this is where the gameplay starts chronologically. It starts with Jesse knocking on Ellie's door, right? And this traversing through Jackson and this conversation about what happened the night before. We get this fulfill your obligation to the community of Jackson Hole for an 8 a.m. patrol moment. Okay.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
This is what I think it was. I wrote these notes down last week, so I forgot to attribute it, but I bet it was Craig said talking about Jackson is the only functional community at all in the world. Best of what we are back. Peace, harmony, the arts, right? Sandwiches from Seth, you know, all kinds of stuff. Steak sandwiches. Sounds great. Where are we getting that steak? Sounds amazing. Okay.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Yeah. We get this, like, back and forth with Jesse and Ellie. And Jesse and Ellie's relationship, I think, is worth thinking about as they're doing a lot of work to show that to us in the first episode and in this episode. Yeah. And we get some early horde talk. Quote, we don't know how many there are underneath the snow. Could be 30 more. A thousand more. Yeah. And Ellie's like, boom.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And we're like, oh, it's a lot, actually. Yeah.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Yeah. Young Mazino is absolutely crushing it.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And your commitment to really putting in the reps, crushing that tape, is that... Did I use that correctly? Okay, so... That is where we are. So when we get to the spoiler section, there are a few things that Mal has not gotten to yet that I will sort of like breeze through. Did I spoil a Mallory in the spoiler section of her own podcast in the notes today? It's my fault.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Ellie says she wants to do patrol with Joel. After this line from Jesse, certainty masquerading as knowledge, very Ellie of you. I think that's a line that's worth, that's a read that's worth thinking about as we go forward in the season. Yeah, absolutely. Ellie says she and Joel, she wants to do patrol with Joel and that they're better now. And how truthful is she being in this moment?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
How much is she just saying this to get Jesse off her back? The part that feels undeniably true. Yeah. The thesis statement of the show. My shit with Joel is complicated. I'm still me. And he's still Joel. And nothing's ever going to change that ever. Which is so contradictory to the misery that we went through in the first episode of this season watching that us feel so fractured.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
But Ellie's saying, like, there is a... there is a center. There is a spine to this that is unbreakable. So no matter what growing pains are happening or revelations about, you know, lies at the end of season one that are happening, et cetera, there is an, immovable object in my heart. And it is Joel. Yes. So like that is, that feels true.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I did want to just like flag this thing that Craig said last week on the official pod that I love though. And he says, I love characters that lie basic human actions. We don't give enough credit. We do it all the time. Ellie is like a strong Lyra Bell Aqua, little liar kind of character. But this feels like, emotionally so true. Whether or not she and Joel are actually, like, fine.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
That there is an unshakable, like, them-ness, us-ness, you know?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Happy Easter. Okay. The episode today, Through the Valley, a.k.a. Spoiler alert.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
You also never know when the last time you're going to, like, see someone is, right? And obviously she sees Joel at the end of this episode, but she's never going to see his unbattered face again. Yeah. Joel is out with Dina. You already talked about that as a change.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Maybe we'll save some of the repercussions of that as much as we can talk about it in a spoiler-free way and then in the spoiler section to talk about that. Jesse mentions that everyone's on high alert and we're about to go in and see General Tommy take the stage. But everyone's on high alert because of the stalker report last week. And I kind of feel like...
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
You know, we were asking some questions last week. That is a show edition. Ellie comes to the council and talks to them about her encounter with a smart zombie. And so they're on high alert in a way they would not have been otherwise when the battle hits. So this helps explain why General Tommy is giving a very conveniently timed security briefing to everyone mere hours before the battle itself.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Did you leave? Are you gone? No, stay. But did you watch the episode?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I am having a hard time killing stalkers in the game. They're so scary.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Like, fuck a bloater. I don't give a shit about a bloater.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
The one where Joel dies. Written by Craig Mazin and directed by Mark Milad. Something that I don't think we commented on in our episode one coverage is that Craig Mazin has solo writing credit on most of the episodes this season, which is... Something to think about. Mark Mylod is a Game of Thrones director. That's how I first met him, but also much more significantly a succession director.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I did think the trucks... braced up against the gate was pretty great and so much better than any time i've ever seen a gate battered in a in a i mean they didn't have trucks at helms deep but like right you know surely there's some mechanic we could have done that was better than what they didn't do a lot to help with all of the other logs that just immediately snapped in half when the
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Okay, so we get the rundown. You see flares. You hear the bells. Don't freak out like Daenerys did. Get to your places. Kids down in the cellar. What could go wrong? Everything's fine. Stay off Main Street. That's the last place you want to be. Of course, that's where Tommy will find himself in a few hours. And... Eat shit, Earl. You shot yourself in the leg. Earl.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I mean, yeah. Even before that, like, meeting him in season one, episode one, he's the fuck-up Moocher brother who, like, lands in jail. You know what I mean? Like, that's who he is. Yeah, exactly.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
In a scene straight out of the game, Maria makes Seth apologize to Ellie. I do think the game scene is funnier. Mostly because of the phrase bigot sandwich. Great stuff. It's a funnier exchange, but it's a more... sincere-seeming apology from Seth inside of the show than it is in the game in this moment. It also shows Maria's authority inside of the community, which is also important.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
As much as Tommy is a leader in this community, Maria is also a leader in this community and can make even people like Seth apologize, etc. And make Ellie come and listen to it, however begrudgingly.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Also gearing up to be a Harry Potter director. So he is an in-house HBO guy. Yeah. A couple things I want to say. Through the Valley, we will get to sort of the song that that is referencing as it plays later in the episode. Also, a Bible verse here for you on this post-Easter Sunday Monday.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
So, um, yeah, as we've mentioned in our listener, Megan wrote in, uh, I was hearing Megan wrote in an email that the title, the headline of which, the subject line of which was simply wood walls plus fire. And the body of which was simply, seems like simply a bad idea. And I have to agree. I did like their little, like,
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
fold-out metal ramp contractions that sort of, like... Like a playground slide. Yeah, that sort of, like, shoved the barrel a bit away, but, like, nonetheless, then you're setting the zombies on fire, and the fire zombies are then coming towards the wall. So it just, like, simply seems, like, not the greatest setup I've ever seen in my life, with love and respect to General Tommy. Yes, agreed.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Do we need trebuchets, maybe, to sort of, like, launch the fire much further? Don't we always? Are there blueprints for building trebuchets in the post-zombie apocalypse? Who's to say? I don't know. Tommy isn't getting a reception. Tells Amy in the reading room to call patrol, including Jesse and Ellie, back, but it's too late. They have to shelter in place, which takes us to... The Weed Palace.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
7-Eleven and weed. Two great tastes that go great together. I agree. This made me want, like, a microwave burrito. 7-Eleven. Home of people who enjoy weed. Okay.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Yes. It's like, what if we made this a 7-Eleven? What if it's a 7-Eleven?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Great stuff. So first they find the place for their horses. Yes. And they feed them. And Jesse seems like he might be a scoach more responsible horse owner. We'll come back to Shimmer a bit later on. Okay. Eugene and Jesse used to go on patrol, and they kept the grow house secret from Maria. And I don't know that I love that implication that Maria is a stick in the mud.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Like, I feel like Maria would be... Say, you need a grow house? You think so? Great. It's the mushroom apocalypse. Do you think so? Yeah. You don't think so? No. Okay. No. I think Maria seems cooler than anti-grow house, you know?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Of all the little game nods in the episode, I think that's my favorite. That was a great one.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
But that Bible verse, Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall feel no evil, for thou art with me. The for thou art with me part was like really, really echoing for me as I was thinking about it because it's just sort of like... When we watch the opening credits and we get, you know, there's all the spores and gores and all this sort of stuff like that.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
So what does Ellie know about how everything went down with Eugene? Right. Right. And also, can we extrapolate that? Going out like that, what are you going to do? Couldn't be helped, couldn't be saved sort of thing. Into what happened with the Fireflies writ large. Is Ellie thinking, is this an okay attitude to have about what happened between Joel and the Fireflies at the end of season one?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Couldn't be helped, you know, sort of thing. And what are her feelings on that?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Yeah, they were like, what luxury to die of natural causes. Yeah, exactly.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And then we get to Joel and Ellie. Thou art with me. It is us. And now it's not. It's just Ellie, right? Yeah. I should say, and we've lived through this before in the era of the Red Wedding and stuff like that on Game of Thrones. Nobody has been chill about this in terms of keeping a lid on their spoiler giddiness.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I think it's also really interesting to remind us that... So Eugene quits the Fireflies because he's tired of the killing, and it's good to remind us that the Fireflies weren't simply innocent scientists in a lab, like, dinkering with beakers, you know, et cetera, that they were... Depending on your point of view, a terrorist organization, if you want to put it that way, you know what I mean?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
They felt that they had a greater good that they were fighting for, but so does everyone, right? So at what point is that, you know, a justification for violence? That's a decision we all get to make for ourselves in the mushroom apocalypse. Okay, here comes the horde. Abby is freezing. As you mentioned, she sees some horses in the distance.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Here's the horse, Winnie, decides, fuck it, and she's going to go down. And again, this is gameplay for people who are playing the game. I like this idea. I had a question about this until I listened to the official podcast of like, what is the thing that sets off
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Is it breaking open the pipes and sort of, for lack of a better word, stimulating the cordyceps tendrils in a way that would send an alert across the mushroom network? Yeah. Or is it Abby...
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
falling her ass down a mountain and and discovering essentially like a zombie graveyard of um mushroom soup essentially um frozen defrosting the frozen mushroom soup essentially um so is it abby that did it or is it that expansion and building inside of jackson which is what craig and neil were identifying as hey man if they weren't expanding jackson
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
They wouldn't have had to crack those pipes open. And if they didn't crack those pipes open, then we don't get those tendrils being stimulated. I'm just going to keep using that word. And I think it's both, really. It's both. But it's an action inside of the community and it's also action outside of the community that triggers this massive event. Right.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Absolutely. The little like skeleton stab arm on that front. I thought the CGI looked mostly great, but not 100% great. And then every time it's just a guy in a Barry Gower prosthetic, amazing. Those prosthetics are just some of the best things I've ever seen. And there's one shot that was in the trailer of a mushroom guy coming up out of the snow and just screeching, essentially.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
That looks like one of the coolest things I've ever seen. You know what that...
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Kathleen ignored so many warnings. Tommy is just about to learn about the tendrils in the pipe. You know what I mean? When the attack happens. Yeah, so it is not the same.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And I understand it's hard to be, but the number of golf club memes I have seen around leading up to this, people were really, really, really, really excited and a sort of... I don't know a way that I haven't seen in a while for, for people who didn't know this was coming to see this. And I'm curious how many people got into it clean.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
The path forward for Abby, did you like that transition? So smooth. Okay. Chris Ryan-esque. Under a chain link fence in one of the most terrifying sequences I've ever seen in both gameplay and in the show. It's a really close match. What we see here, we've got this infected guy who tries to basically like push his hand through the links. of the fence in order to get to her.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Um, this terrifying to watch. What is it like to play Mallory? Also terrifying.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
If you haven't watched this episode of television, please go do that before you listen to this podcast. That would be my encouragement. I'm not usually such a stickler for that, but this week I am. Oh, yeah. So go do that, please. Okay.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
This is, like, really early in the game, like, super early in the game, so I was still, like, re-familiarizing myself with the mechanics, but, um... This feels like, I will just say, watching this, you know how, like, you watch, um, any kind of, like, an action movie or a post-apocalyptic, and you're like, oh, this is simply the place where I would die. This is where you would die.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Now, no, clearly, I would have died day one of the mushroom. I'm dying the minute the infection spreads, because I love a carb, but, like, um... But when Abby's crawl army crawling under the chain, I'm like, I'm not making out of that. Absolutely not. So in gameplay, I could just see myself being like, there's what what are we doing here? I'm not making through this.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I know Mallory, you got into the section of the game clean, which I am like so surprised by any thoughts you have about the title of the episode or sort of all the buzz leading up to it and how maybe how that moment landed for you anyway. Yeah.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Right, she didn't go back for her friends. She didn't say, like, hey, I saw something. She just went forward. Stannis-esque. I am obsessed with how this plays out in the game and how this moment is shot in the show where it's just sort of like, help is here. And we're pretty sure it's Joel, but we don't see that it's Joel right away. And we get the gunshot sound that knocks out Abby's hearing.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
So we're firmly in the Abby POV of disorientation. A guy is here we don't know. So it helps us to not see his face at first because it's just sort of like, who is this person here to help me? Devastating irony of ironies. The sound buzzing out, again, firmly roots you in POV. Yeah. So that happens for her here, and it happened for Ellie at the end of the episode.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
To have that mirroring, I think, is really powerful. Agreed.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
i just love this big damn hero moment for joel uh one of the last things he gets to do in his life this is exactly to your point this is what he loves to do to be the hero to be the guy um he's got dina with him which is different and so dina's anxiety of like what do we do we have no way forward no way back dina says his name which is just uh and a lot of people have noted this uh
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
is a much more organic way his name is brought up here than it is in the video game. But it's just this moment. Now, this is a difference. It's an adaptive difference. We know that Abby is here to kill Joel slowly. And so Dina says Joel, and we know exactly what that means to Abby. Her singular focus... I'm going to, I have to find Joel here. He's handsome, but he's got to die. Right.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
So like I have to find Joel, kill him slowly. Yeah. So I, I love that, but also reconcile that. However, briefly, whatever flash there is of like, but he just saved me. He just absolutely saved me. But to your point and, and Craig and Neil talked about this absolute moral clarity for her. She knows what she has to do. She's not questioning whether or not she's going to kill him.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
But there's still two truths that are existing side by side. This guy saved my life. Yeah. And now I have to end his life. I mean, what life? You know, as she will say later. But, yeah. I loved the way that this was put together. And, you know, in a way, I thought it was better... Then, you know, it's interesting because, you know, Neil has said this in a number of different interviews.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
The fact that like Mark Milad as a director of the episode, they were like, so the battle sequence. And Mark said this himself. Like, so the battle sequence, you got to be all in your head about executing a battle sequence, right? He was a Thrones director, but never a battle episode director, right? So it's like, how are you going to do that logistically, blah, blah, blah. And he was like,
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I'm not as concerned about that as I am about nailing this Joel death moment. And I do think that like the moments of direction that are most successful inside of this episode have nothing to do with the battle episode. And that's because that's where Mark Milad's priority was. And I think he absolutely crushed that aspect of it.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And I think this moment is so crucial, and the way it is all framed and executed. A lot of it mirroring the game, but also just with some crucial changes, too.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I think there's, like, a macro-micro aspect to it for Joel, and I think this has been true throughout. It's, like, theoretically other people, theoretically who's coming to the gates here, blah, blah, blah. But when push comes to shove in most moments, you know, when you're confronted with the actual humanity of that person, Joel makes different decisions.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Oh, man. Something I want to note about the, you know, we're cutting back to Tommy in the radio room and trying to get a hold of everyone, is that Amy in the radio room is in a wheelchair, and we also saw someone else in a wheelchair in the security briefing when Tommy's saying, like, when you hear the bells, do this, right? And there's something about that that, like, speaks to...
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
what Jackson is in terms of a place where we're not just like scrapping and surviving and tooth and claw. We are, we have a place for everyone here. And, and again, once again, maybe the only, one of the only places where that is still true in, in the country from what we know and, and how that will all sort of, At least take a massive blow by the end of this episode.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Ellie, with the aforementioned incredible gas mask bong, talks to Jesse about how he'll be the leader of Jackson one day. And I think that's really interesting. We'll talk about that maybe a little bit more later. But they go running into panic when they realize that both Joel and Dina are in trouble. I think this is interesting. The mix and match of various characters.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
We'll talk in the spoiler section about what's missing from the girl house sequence and stuff like that. But I think this idea that, like, for Jesse... Joel's in trouble. Yes, Dina's in trouble, right? And, like, they've had this relationship. And for Ellie, it's like the two most important people in her life are in trouble and what that means.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And then he says, OK, but he says 20 minutes. You got to get to the mine by then, whether you find them or not. And the way he talks or he's like, Ellie, Ellie, you got to do this. The same way that Dina was like, hey, don't do anything stupid in that grocery store until I get you. OK, Ellie. OK. How everyone talks to Ellie of like, I know. Yes. You won't.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
But maybe if I say it five times, you will.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
When Dean is like, what do we do? Yes, exactly.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I also think on the on the I love that. And also on the Tommy front of this interesting reversal of like Joel in season one. A lot of this is kicked off because he can't get Tommy on the radio. And so Tommy not being able to get Joel on the radio here. But Tommy cannot go out into the snow because he's a little busy back home.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And this is where we're going to do all the Battle of Jackson stuff at once that we're just going to. Knock it out. So here's my main critique of the Battle of Jackson, I will say. And yeah, I'm not upset it's here. This is a masterful episode. But you and I have spent a lot of time analyzing battle episodes. Yes. This is something that we've done a lot of in our career.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And I will say what I'm missing here that we have in episodes, the best versions of the battle episodes of Game of Thrones, for example.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
An inescapable comp. We've got a Thrones director here. It really seems like they're chasing some Thronesiness inside of this episode. But even something like Hardhome, which a lot of people forget, is only one portion of that... Not a sizable portion of that episode is the Battle of Hardhome. But a lot of people forget that because they think it's an entire battle episode. It's not.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
But what they do inside of Hardhome, which is so successful, and the most successful other episodes... Blackwater, et cetera, et cetera, of Thrones, is give you little micro-narratives to follow inside of the battle. So it's not just action, action, action. We're following human stories inside of that.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And that is true also inside of something like the Battle of Helm's Deep, which is the big, successful blockbuster series. genre battle moment that a lot of these shows are chasing. What are these individual little groups and pairings of characters doing? Do I care what John is doing in Washington Wall? Yes. But I also care what Pip and Grant are doing a lot.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Do I care what's happening out in the water in Blackwater? Yes. But I also care what Cersei and Sansa are up to. Do I care about what, once again, Jon, he's always there in a battle, really. But like, do I care what Jon and Tormund are doing in Harnom? Yes. But I also care about Carsey, a character who I just met. Just met, yeah. And what's going on with her and her kids and that little narrative.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Inside of the Battle of Jackson, we really only have Maria and Tommy. And that is the main... I mean, it's a short little bit of a battle. They're not trying to do a whole episode where it's just this. But we really just have their connection. And we really actually also haven't spent that much time inside of the Maria and Tommy relationship over the course of the series.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And so what Neil and Craig have talked about in terms of this choice that Tommy makes... To defend the city at large until he realizes that, you know, my us has zoomed in on Maria and my kiddo, who is theoretically down in the crypts of Winterfell. What a great place for the kids to be. It's always fine.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And so I'm going to ignore my own advice and ignore everyone around me and just lead this bloater down a back alley and do this exchange. That is interesting to me, but in terms of like... a successful battle, big genre TV battle writ large, I felt like I was missing some of those other narratives.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I wish I knew the name of literally other residents of Jackson because all the ones I know were out on patrol. Earl and Seth, what are you guys up to? You're all I have to cling to. What is Gail doing? What's Gail up to during the Battle of Jackson?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Did cat get her tattoo gun out to sort of like try to defend Jackson? Like, what is she doing? So like, that's if I were to add something to this episode, that's what I would add.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
That's interesting to me in the same way that, like, What does it mean to hold the wall? Or what does it mean to see the White Walkers for the first time for someone like John? Like, there are big sort of thematic moments. What does it mean for this thing to be breached? What does it mean for wildfire to be used for the first time? Like, all of those things are interesting.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
But I think what makes... Something like that, stick to my ribs, are those more human moments. Totally.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I was waiting for it. And then Tommy goes, Jackson Hole. All right. I did like the Jackson Hole.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I don't have anything to, I think we have already covered like the bloater interaction and everything that happens here. I will just say Maria goes to the dogs and TikTok gets Ramsey face eating a clock for the infected. Like, here we are.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
A little touch of the tend. All right. Um, I am going to read this email from Dan. I don't know that we need to like, uh, touch on every beat, but it was a phenomenal email. So thank you, Dan, for this. Dan says, we're going to need a 20 minute comparison on Winterfell versus Jackson and their defense versus the snow zombies, which was more prepared. Which defense system did you trust more?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
How has Bella Ramsey now had two separate homes affected by snow zombies? Which zombies did you fear more in their settings? Would Melisandre have been just as ineffective or Whose battle cry made you feel more empowered? Why didn't anyone light the pipes on fire with the tendrils hoping it'd make it back to the source? Did ghosts train these German shepherds?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Are they crossbred with the unextinct dire wolf? And are bloaters the most overrated mid-tier bad guy boss? They're large and imposing and difficult in the game, but TV hasn't quite made them something to fear, in my opinion. Surely HBO said, go talk to the Game of Thrones team for the long night and said, step one, make it the early part of an afternoon day and don't kill anyone important.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I don't understand. The game just started.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Before we get into everything we have to talk to, and it's a doozy, it's a doozy of an episode we love to talk about, we're going to do quick programming reminders just to let you know that this week, not only are we covering this episode of The Last of Us, huge, but also Andor's back, baby. Thrilling. It's Andor time. Yeah.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Do you think that... I do think if I were to port anything from the Battle of Winterfell to this, and to be clear, with love and respect to the whites, I find the mushroom zombies way scarier than I ever found. I find the white walkers scary, but in a more sort of like...
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
unrelenting always advancing kind of way uh but in terms of like a horde of the undead coming at me these mushroom zombies yeah they're terrifying they're so bitey um because the the whites are trying to kill you and then in killing you they could make you one of theirs it's the bite they're trying to bite you that's uh okay anyway um having to fight like all the different
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Earl. Oh, God. Okay. I do think, though, Melisandre would have maybe been more helpful. Like, fuck a flamethrower pack. We've got the Lord of Light on our side. Indeed. It's roasted mushrooms for everyone. Okay. Delish. We are now entering a sequence in the notes that I have labeled... This is a fucked up thing you did in the doc.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
You're welcome. Did you see the Midnight Boys brought golf clubs to their recording today? I mean, listen, we all process in our own ways.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
We work through it in our own ways. Oh my God. Okay.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
So as we mentioned, Abby lures Joel and Dina up to the lodge. We already mentioned like the sort of what was interesting about the added tension of, of Joel being like, we got to get back to Jackson. It's on fire. I could see it from here. All the sort of stuff like that. Joe ever paternal rushes Dina in front of the fire. Um,
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
abby tells owen to help joel and dina to like to help both of them dina sees the wolves sees very clearly sees the wolf patch yeah she clocked it abby introduces them all by name and then she says her name is dina and he is joel This is a very good moment in the show. I think it is an even better moment in the game because I don't know what it is about.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I mean, everyone's face here is really good. There's something about, and again, I've only watched the gameplay, not played the game, but like there's something about the way the energy is just completely shifts in the room. And maybe that's the sort of reveal that they're all definitely there for Joel, which again, we don't get confirmation until we hear the name Joel and the whole room just like,
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Tilts, essentially, mood-wise. But an incredibly iconic moment in the game. Just really unsettling.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Abby really needed another thing on her tally. So they put Dina to sleep. Yeah. Dina's pretty much just not here in the game, but like put her to sleep.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I have to say, and I don't know if you know this about me, but I'm not a doctor. I'm not a scientist. I know. But I hate the look of that milky syringe. It was the milkiness of the substance.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I was like, I would prefer... Interesting. You like a clear solution?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
A clear solution rather than a milky solution. Fair. Fair. Hobbsanddragons.gmail.com if you disagree about the substance of the syringe. Okay, so what I will say about Dina and Izzy's performance here is just like, Dina is like... a ferocious person. She is not. And as we know, she's like, we've seen her on the hunt with Ellie.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Like she's, she's a fighter and she's a ferocious person inside of this moment until they knock her out for exactly an hour. No more, no less. So that's what happens here. Okay. So Abby asks, what do we look like? And Joel first says military. And then he says, fireflies. Okay. Used to be, haven't you heard? There are no more fireflies. They're all gone.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I mean, what a performance. But also just this, like, sort of sneering, posturing cavalier sort of thing. Yeah, this, like, nice scar you have on your temple there, six feet in your 60s. You actually are pretty handsome. Congrats on that. Really good. So good.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
So something that Caitlin Deaver and Neal and Craig have talked about in a lot of interviews, just an added layer to note inside of this episode, is that Caitlin Deaver, an incredible actress no matter what, had just lost her mom a couple weeks before they filmed the scene and had just...
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
had her mom's funeral days before they filmed this and you know uh craig and neil talked about how you know they were willing to shift schedule do what you know do whatever they needed to do to try to like accommodate and help and make sure that she did not have to do this incredibly emotionally taxing uh performance inside of a state like that um
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
But Caitlin Deaver has described doing this whole thing as being in a daze. And so I think it's one of the best things I've ever seen on television. Caitlin, again, we've mentioned a million times, is one of our... Favorite. Uh, I guess I can no longer call her a young performer. She's an adult. Um, but like, she's just one of my favorite performers, full stop and anything.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And she just exceeded my expectations for her performance inside of this.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Like, just... The fact that this season is so centered on this idea of justice. What is justice? How do we enact it? Is there such a thing as justice? At what cost does this justice come? Right. Abby says, one chance to tell the truth, Joel. If you do, let's face it, we'll all know and I'll let her live.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And so something that Craig said about one of the several reasons that they have Dina in the room here is Dina as leverage for keeping Joel in line, right? So it's one thing to have Tommy there unconscious on the floor, but To have Dina, who we've already seen, Joel, have this... It's the closest thing to Ellie that he had in episode one, calling her kiddo.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
This is something that he cares enormously about. Another young, daughter-like figure, vulnerable on the floor. What do I have to do to protect her? So I will stay in line with... uh, because you have this particular specific leverage over me. And I think that like Joel telling the truth here is so interesting.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
There is this line from Gail in the first episode, you can't heal something unless you're brave enough to say it out loud. So Joel having this moment in a way that we haven't seen yet, um, where he tells the truth about something. Yeah. Um, is, is amazing.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I got, we have this incredible email from Sean who says for a brief moment, it's barely a flash, but Pedro does something incredible with his face. While Joel is listening to Abby, Joel connects with her because she knows the truth about Salt Lake. Despite being shot, he looks so, and we'll talk about the shot in a second, but by being shot, he looks so relieved.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
He doesn't have to lie anymore for such an overwhelmingly action-packed episode. The quiet moments between Joel, Abby and Joel are the most quote unquote rattling, uh,
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Well, well, well. What the cost of this is going to be. It isn't the consequences of my own actions. Yeah. But that moral clarity for both of them.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
The moment where, so Joel says, I saved your life. Ellie says, what life? I saved your life. Similar to what he says to Gail. I saved her. Right. I saved your life. What life is, ground out by Abby. And then she abruptly shoots him in the leg and it blows him back and onto his face. Horrifying.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And I love this moment because I think if you... Before he met Ellie, if someone saved Joel's life and they were like, I saved your life, he would say, what life? That was how Joel was... not living but enduring after Sarah. There was this time in his life where he was not alive, even as he was still going on. And then Ellie brought him back to life.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And so that is the space that Abby has been existing in, this what life space post her father the last five years.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Here's where we're seeing even more of the breakdown in terms of the unity inside of the Salt Lake City crew in terms of Abby's determination to do it slowly. So to rewind back to episode one, when Abby says at the beginning of episode one in that cold open, we first meet her, kill him slowly. Yeah.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
A lot of game players objected to this because what they liked about this moment is that they felt like the contract between all the Salt Lake City crew was to show up and to kill Joel. And it's Abby in that moment who sort of draws it out. Not five years ago, I said slowly and I meant slowly and I still mean slowly. It's Abby in that moment being like...
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I need to prolong this because it doesn't feel good yet. And hopefully the longer I do this, the worse I make it. The blow for blow sort of, how can I make this as bad for you as it was for me? That slowly is a decision she makes in the moment, according to people, the feeling of the people who know the whole arc of her story and how that,
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
what lesson that drives home about sort of the, this won't soothe you. This won't be a bomb no matter what you do. And so I, I, it's not a deal breaker at all for me, but I understand why people bumped a little on that change inside of the episode, you know?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Thank you so much for that. Mallory, I love you, and I love the way that you share your experiences with the world. I'm already on the verge of tears. I know. I love you. I just can't believe it. We've only just started. I'm sorry we're not in person. My tendrils yearn to wrap around you. But I think that...
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Right. I love that. That's so good. We get this whole explicit monologue from Abby. And this is another thing that game players are bumping on again, all this information we've already gone around and around on that. But I love this thing that Craig said in an interview with entertainment weekly, again, a great, uh, like big cover story piece with Nick Romano on this moment.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
But Craig said, the truth is what he did is what she's doing. What he, Joel did is what she's doing now. We kill for the people we love. Joel has an experience that neither Ellie nor Abby have. And we're going to explore this further in the season. And that is the experience of loving a child, which is different than being a child and loving a parent. Yeah.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Craig, I love to hear you talk about your show.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I know. It's like, I love this. Holy shit.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Both Craig and Neil always are just like coming through with these moments where I was like, oh, but you didn't think about it that way.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
That really got to me. Absolutely. So I'm excited to see how that, how they continue to sort of pull on that thread. Yeah, so I love all of this.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
She says the nurses say you barely even looked at him when you pulled the trigger, walked right past his body as you walked out the door. And something that they underlined in the official podcast is the way that they, in filming it, made sure the camera lingered on him. Again, once again, making season one, knowing that they were going to make season two.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
So knowing that, like, that's the moment where we... We leave Joel's POV. Joel walks out the door and we're with the doctor because this is the moment where as much as we are with Joel, this is a crossing of a Rubicon moment that we don't follow him on necessarily. Some people do and some people don't.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Listening to the official podcast, something we love to do, especially on this show, the official HBO podcast hosted by Troy Baker, the actor who portrayed Joel in the game, and with Craig Mazin and Neil Druckmann's POV every week. There's also a number of interviews that they gave to some outlets. Shout out Nick Romano over at ER, James Hibbert over at THR with some great coverage.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And that, to your point, is the disagreement that it's the heart at the center of the end of the last game. Abby spots the golf clubs. And those of us who know... No. And before she can start monologuing again, Joel says to just shut the fuck up and do it already. In the game, Joel says, why don't you just say whatever speech you've got rehearsed and get this over with?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I like both versions, to be honest with you.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And she says, you stupid old man, you don't get to rush this, which is right out of the game. And stupid old man is a really interesting phrasing in terms of really putting this in a generational context for us. This reminds me of when... So I was like, Pedro Pascal has been aged up, you know, for this, for this role, for this moment.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And it reminds me of, I told you this at the time, but like a recap, I was reading about the Mandalorian, which described Timothy Olyphant's Cobb Vanth as like this old man comes out. I was like, what are you talking about?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
What are you talking about? Caitlin Beaver says, you stupid old man. And we're like, how dare you describe Joel as a stupid old man? But she was 19, is now 24, and he's in his 60s. And this is a generational... This happens, you know, same as it ever was, like generational cycles. But like, this is, you know, a Gen Z character...
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
looking at a Gen Xer being like, you know, essentially saying, okay, boomer to him, you know, but like, puts this inside of these generational conflicts, which we talked about again and again and again in terms of like who, who views the apocalypse in what way, what did you know about before versus what you know about now, you know?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
But the conversations that they had On that podcast about the when and the why and the where of this moment when Neil first thought about doing it for the game, telling Troy, the actor who plays Joel, what's going to happen to his character in the game. At an after party. That was a nugget. That was amazing. I love that.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Yeah. So I was talking to our producer, Carlos, who hadn't played the game, went into Sunday Night Unspoiled to get his sort of POV. And I was asking him, I was like, at what point did you know for certain it was over? And he was like, not until, you know, the shaft of that golf club like went in. Because like I thought at any moment we could have come back from this.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
So Abby is screaming and punching. She has clearly been at it for a while. Man. Yeah. Mel is crying and the actress who played Mel just decided to do that. That was not a direction she was given. Owen is trying to get Abby's attention. And I already mentioned this moment where Ellie's outside the room and she hears Abby's screams and wails. And it sounds like the infected to me.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
That's what it sounded like. Like a shriek. Yeah. Ellie comes in. She is sort of taken out immediately. Nora's holding her down. And we get the Joel get up. And this is the moment. And apparently a lot of people feel the same way. All of it is really tough to watch. Ellie crawling across the floor. This moment where she says, Joel, get up. Get fucking up. And his hand is twitching.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And he is trying to get up for her. Destroyed me. Shredded me. When he is pulp, he is trying to get up because she asked him to. Anytime you see... Again, we love to talk about the human characters as infected. The twitching of his hand as a sort of nod to the infected symptom I thought was really, really good. And then... this notion that Joel tries to get up and can't.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And to your point about Dina's on the floor, Abby has called him a stupid old man and he has to die knowing that he failed another daughter for all he knows. He dies here and Ellie and Dina die right after him. Like he, he dies. I'm putting scare quotes around it. Cause I don't think of it this way, but he dies a failure.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
He dies failing at the one thing that he decided was his capital P purpose, to come back to the theme that you have expertly threaded through this episode.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
You know, and not knowing that even that they were going to do this game in the first place, but if they were going to do a sequel to the game, wanting to have something to say about it, not just like, okay, let's just be back with Joel and Ellie and do the same, same, same, but different. And so... Ripping Joel out of the center of the game is one thing.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Also, Dina's on the floor, immobilized, and Ellie doesn't know whether or not Dina's alive in that moment. She's been knocked out with a milky syringe, but, like, you know, who's to say? She's not, you know, and so it's like... Also, I was thinking, I love that you always remember to cite that, like, her greatest fear is being alone. I've been thinking a lot about...
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
The don't fuck it up, don't fuck it up, don't fuck it up, don't fuck it up moment in her journal. And how Ellie is someone who's wracked with anxiety in a number of ways, despite her sort of brash demeanor. You know, the thing that Jesse calls her out for. But she is someone riddled with uncertainty and insecurity and anxiety the way that Joel is.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And also someone who trained so hard to be capable. Like we meet her in this season, in this scrimmage, in the barn where she comes and she's so like cocksure, but she's been training to protect herself and protect the people she cares about from this very moment. And she gets taken down right away because she's simply outmatched by, you know, the Salt Lake City crew inside of this moment. Yeah.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And so it's a failure for her as well to protect the person that she loves. And again, I don't think of it that way, but that is how the characters think about it.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Brew. The way that Craig described it in the official pod is a catalytic change from fear to anger. They probably should have killed her, but they didn't believe it. I'm going to kill you. You're all going to fucking die. There you go. Also, Craig was talking about this is how things end. We break all relationships, all the great loves of our lives.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I just need Craig to talk to me about hope and happiness at some point. The connections we have with our parents, our children, they break. And how we deal with that is the most specific of human suffering. This is in the interview he gave THR. Great, great interview. Okay. Ellie, we mentioned the sound cutting out as it does in the game.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
But to your point, and I believe this when Craig Mazin says it, and I believe it when Neil Druckmann says it, not to shock you, not to devastate you, but because they're more faceted than anything else in the aftermath. Like, this is a moment, you know, and Craig has been giving interviews all over the place where he's like, if you're mad... I get it. Like, I was mad when Ned Stark died.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
This puts us inside of Ellie's trauma, inside of Ellie's head. And then Ellie crawls to Joel. This is not in the game. Ellie crawls to Joel. Like an infected, like a stalker almost. And I love what they said about the noises, the hurt little noises that the stalker girl made in the first episode. Like how the human is still inside of her, sort of trying to get out.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
These hurt noises from Ellie as she drags herself over to Joel, holds his hand. He dies. You pointed out the watch in frame when he... steps in to rescue Abby the watch is in you know his hand with the watch on it is right in by his head in this shot of him on the ground the watch the time stop time is up for Joel it's over
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Episodes one through three, because life is too short to take things one episode at a time. All right. So we will be doing a three, a triple episode deep dive of Andor later this week. It's great stuff. The Midnight Boys Pew Pew are also covering The Last of Us and Andor. They also have the long awaited Midnight Munchies episode this week.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Um, she pulls the club out and lays her head on top of his and it's an overhead shot. And Dina is also there and it is very upsetting. This is what our listeners Skylar said. I couldn't stop thinking about Ellie pulling herself over to Joel.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Um, and in the end and how it was a parallel to the way she did the same thing in season one in the basement when he was stabbed, she held his hand in both instances and he got a thing for just a moment. She thought he'd be okay. Just like last time. And he'd get up. And then the strings finally get cut when she realizes he's really gone and she's just in total shock.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Bella completely freaking sold that whole scene. I could not stop crying. The impact of Dina being there, et cetera. This was... Yeah. You and I are both visibly, hopefully auditorily upset that... I did think it was interesting. I read this analysis from Jean Park, who's a reporter for The Washington Post.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And Jean, I've followed for years as an incredible sort of video game analysis for The Washington Post across all things. he was highlighting the physical difference between these sets inside of the game versus not that the set here is, there's a lot of space and a lot of light. Yeah. And the, where Joel dies in the game is a dingy, dark little room. Yeah.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And for him, that difference didn't work so well. How do you think about that? Did that, does it enhance? Does it not really matter to you? What do you think?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Like, I really get it. You know, so like if you're mad, if you're threatening to quit the show, like whatever it is, that's fine. But the story that they're invested in telling is the story of us. which is our grief at losing Joel.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
The two things I want to say. I want to come back to, of course, Ellie's mom, because we will hear from her in a second. But also... To sort of Jean's critique of the setup of the scene, I actually think it works even better for me. There's a devastating nature to the devastating way that Joel dies in a dingy room. That's true.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
There's also just something so chilling about the contrast of being in this Jackson, Wyoming luxury lodge that some incredibly rich person built for themselves in order to be up on high surveying the valley below.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Yeah, the... Crumpet? I don't know. Something with flour? Yeah. My eat the rich moment really came through. Okay. Um, like the, um, you know, the golf clubs being there makes even more sense inside of a context like that. But just this idea of like the, the alien nature of being inside of this, like, um, my, like,
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
almost, yeah, this relic of a bygone age, which is something we explore again and again inside of the game. There are just so many times that, like, Ellie's like, what is this hotel lobby? What do you do here in this hotel lobby? What is this ski lodge thing? Like, what is this? This was, like, The height of just sort of sheltered privilege.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And this is where this bloody brutal thing is enacted by this group of young people living inside of the future that they've had to create for themselves. Ellie also passed through the nursery. Yes. Yes. Let's just dial it up another notch by walking past a crib. A crib. Let's just put a crib on it. Okay. So through the valley. Yeah.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
this song by Sean James covered by Ashley Johnson, who is the actress who portrayed Ellie in the game and also the actress who plays Ellie's mom in the show. So we are hearing this song that is a huge consequence to the game players. It was a song that played in the trailer for the first trailer for last of us part two.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And so they're interested in exploring that through the lens of not just Ellie, but in this adaptive choice, Dina, who's in the room, Jesse, who arrives too late, Tommy, who's back at home and doesn't even know this has happened yet. Like all of the people who lose Joel are, this is their story going forward to a certain degree.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
This is like the first thing that players who were excited to play the game heard this song. Um, and they hear, you could hear Ellie's voice, uh, and distraught about something. And what does that mean? We don't know what The Last of Us Part II is yet. So what is this game that's coming that has Ellie so wrecked? What's happening?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
But then, you know, as the showrunners have pointed out, this is the voice of Ellie's mom. So as her dad dies, you're so right to invoke Ellie's birth year. As her dad, Angel, dies, we hear from her dead mother is overlaid in this moment. Yeah.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
They didn't miss a beat in this stretch here. My God.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Mashable has this analysis of this that I haven't been able to confirm, so I don't want to like hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com if this is incorrect. But according to Mashable, the only way to hear Through the Valley and The Last of Us Part II was to beat the game on permadeath mode.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
That's a setting that means if your character dies, you're not booted back to the start of the level or your last save point. That's not for me. To try again, you lose in permadeath setting. Death is not a setback. It's the end. Thus, this song playing over the sequence underscores the cold new reality. Joel is dead for good. HomelessDragons.gmail.com.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
If Mashable didn't get that quite right, I couldn't confirm it. Okay. So we see the SL, the Salt Lake City crew is stomping away. Jesse rides up to the lodge too late. But I still felt...
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
bolstered by jesse showing up in that moment same um we see the aftermath and jackson this upsetting tableau of a bitten man asking for help from his neighbor essentially like handing it's like saying shoot me i'm bit it's over for me yeah um Tommy is crying. He and Maria reunite. Tommy is crying. She kind of is the one like sort of supporting him back into shelter.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I had a moment where I was like, does he, like, does he know via radio somehow about Joel listening to the official pod? That didn't really seem to be the implication. The implication is just like, this is after the, it's a bummer to survive a battle. And that is what is happening there. Yeah.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And then we get the thing our listeners seem to be most concerned about, which is Jesse and Ellie are on one horse, Dina on the other. Ellie is gasping and looking over her shoulder. Joel is wrapped up and being dragged home. And we got several emails asking, where is Shimmer? Is Shimmer okay?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
As those emails started rolling in, the Shimmer-based email, I was like, these are our people. Oh, God. Okay, I did not do an Easter egg roundup. It seemed a little weird to do so for this episode. Let's just give it to the gas mask bong. Gasless bong it is. Okay. Spores galore, mushroom recipe, Thunderdome.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And then we've got these newcomers to the story as well, who are experiencing their own version of grief. This thing that Craig Mason said on the official podcast, grief is what is left when something that is entwined with you is ripped away. Um, I love that. I mean, I just always love the way that they describe the show.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I had intentions of making this mushroom galette recipe that I did not get to because I blew all my energy on Friday on a triple mushroom lasagna that I made. That was amazing.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
It was so good. I asked the bad babies on social media for their mushroom lasagna recipes, and I got this one. It's from a blog called Cooking for Keeps. It's a triple mushroom lasagna with ricotta, sage, and fontina. And I added, here's the tip, lemon zest to the ricotta. And it made this sagey, mushroomy, cheesy, lemony situation that we ate while we decanted our mead.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Did I tell you... So this mead that we brewed a couple months ago, did I tell you what we named it? I don't think so. Okay. This is my...
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
making last oh uh and one of our listeners came up with the lasagna of us uh so making the lasagna of us mushroom lasagna on friday while decanting our mead we had we had made this mead a couple months ago and then we had split it into two bottles and we flavored one with passion fruit syrup and the other one is is just plain jane mead uh so one is like effervescent and flavorful and the other one is just like ordinary but otherwise they are twins so we called them luke and leah
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Leah being the passion fruit one and Luke being just our basic honey boy. Tough one. And they're delicious. We did a great job with the mead. Okay. That's it. That was just a high note to end our non-spoiler section of the show. And we're going to do a little spoiler section here. It's not going to take too long. We've already been at it for a while.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And Mallory's been crying on and off for two hours. So we're going to let her go soon. But this is... Your spoiler warning.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And not only that, hopefully we'll see you later this week for Andor. Andor. Yeah. It's the best.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I just can't wait to talk about Andor. Bye for now. Stick around if you want some spoilers. Okay, here we go. All right, here we go. Spoilers of Fungus Among Us. No mention of Owen and Mel's pregnancy and we're missing sort of I mean, if I dig deep, I can find it. But the whiff of the love triangle here of Abby's devastation at learning that Mel's pregnant by Owen. We get like Abby like.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
You know, making sure that Owen is, like, nice and warm at the beginning of the episode.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
But the way that Craig chooses to use the word entwined and then you can't help but think about like tendrils wrapped around someone's heart, right? And so the way in which Joel and Ellie in many ways in many ways, just in order to survive, wrapped around each other. But as Neil and Craig talked about a lot in season one, what is the darker side of cleaving to someone so closely?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Theoretically, she doesn't know that Mel is pregnant. I don't know.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
It would be wild. That would be very strange. So maybe they're just delaying it. Wild. It feels important to me that Mel is pregnant. I agree.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Well, now, like, you're going to side with her, not me. And what it means, I mean... That's the worry. Because such a core part of the game is Dina's pregnancy. And so this idea of, like, what does it mean to go back to Craig's, you know, quote about what does it mean to be a child versus to be a parent? Like, what does it mean to have a family, a future, and this other new reorienting us, right?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Is the us Dina and Ellie, or is the us Dina and her kiddo, is the us the Salt Lake City crew, or is the us Owen and Mel and their kiddo? Like, all of that is part of it. Also, I don't know. You're not quite there. Like, I already spoiled a couple things for you, so I'm just not going to get into this. But there's some other reasons why I think it is very important that Mel is pregnant. Okay.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Do you think it should draw it out to make it a little bit more of a like a will they won't they sort of vibe?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Awful? It's like, yeah, it's like what happened with her first kiss. Yeah. This isn't necessarily her first time with Dina because there's the cat implication and stuff like that. But like, it's her, maybe her first time with someone like she cares as much as that.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
We'll see. We definitely deserve this. Okay. This is a conversation Rob and I were having because Kaelin Deaver is a guest star. She is not in the main cast this season. So how much more Abby will we slash should we get? Because if we're going by like game rules, she's just gone. Yeah. So, like, is Abby gone from the rest of the season? Are we going to get her in the finale?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
You know what I mean? What is the darker side to entwining yourself, mushroom-like, into someone? So we watched this a lot in season one with Joel...
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Weird. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, this is something that I spoiled for you. And I'm sorry. No, it's okay. It's my fault for not having finished the game yet. I should have checked in with you. I'm sorry.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Oh, I meant to say this is a non-spoiler section. Yeah. It is the five-year Sir Brianniversary. Oh, dude. On this day five years ago, Bran of Tarth was knighted. It's in my calendar recurring every year. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Happy Sir Brianniversary to you. Happy anniversary to you. Thank you. Okay. Jesse.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
There's this conversation between Jesse and Ellie is like, we all know you're the leader, the future of Jackson. You're the leader of Jackson, blah, blah, blah. Spoiler for Mallory. Jesse will not make it out of this revenge mission. I'm not surprised by this at all.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Without getting swept up in this. All right.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
in the aftermath of losing sarah yeah um but and we're watching it in this episode with abby's grief uh having lost her father and now we're gonna see what happens with ellie after losing joel what happens when that part of you is ripped away is there coming back for that or is there not for joel It seemed to be to a certain degree.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Triangle is so interesting. That brings me to, like, the question of why have Dina there. Yeah, hit me. What do you got? Well, so... I wrote, I have a theory before I read all the interviews. So basically, why have Dina instead of Tommy in there at the lodge? The Tommy thing I'll set aside because I'm actually not sure the ramifications of that. Dina... Dina then going with Ellie to Seattle.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
So Dina going with Ellie, not as Ellie's plus one, but as someone who was there. Right. Someone who also experienced that trauma, I think is a little bit more interesting, even more interesting. And then Bella Ramsey said this fascinating thing in the EW piece. Yeah. Where she said they, Dina and Ellie, have become trauma bonded. Trauma bonded in a way, but there's also an element of resentment.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
I think there was some real jealousy. Dina got to be with him. Dina got to spend that last day with him. And there's a lot of guilt and regret on Ellie's part. That was a little thing that I was laced into what I took afterwards, especially. Okay, so... Jeez. Eventually... Actually, I don't want to talk about this. We're going to talk more when you finish the game. Okay.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
No, I don't want to limit you. It's the spoiler section. Say what you need to say. I will say, like, yeah, this can be fuel for...
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
further fractures and fissures inside of dina and ellie's relationship okay yeah the seattle and isaac tease let's go baby let's go uh she's like i wouldn't go to seattle if i were you but that's not a problem for you but it's gonna be a problem yeah for dina and for ellie and for jesse and for tommy etc he's for episode three uh chilling just ending on that note abby yeah um
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
And then, you know... But also, what does it mean for the community? Right. She's leaving Jackson in a different state because this is a Jackson that is licking its wounds from a battle versus a Jackson that lets them go off solo, you know?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
She's, like, unable to breathe barely on the horse. Yeah.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
He, he finds Ellie and that brings him back, but does it because of what he does at the end of season one is, was he forever? Was Joel forever different? Yes. After Sarah dies in season one, episode one, she's always there. So anything you want to say about that?
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Curious to see. Here's the other thing I spoiled for Valerie, and I'm once again deeply sorry. You didn't.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
But in the spoiler section. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Oh, Teresa asks, what was your experience watching the porch scene after seeing episode one of the show's interpretation of the post-party exchange? When do you expect the porch scene to come into the show? And I guess we'll wait to see how they depict it.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
But are you concerned that to some viewers, if they do the show conversation scene later, that they will think it's Ellie's fix-it wish and not actual memory? So if you're listening to the spoiler section and you haven't,
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
Don't know this already, but like the scene where Ellie, I mean, this is how the guitar gets into Ellie's room strong and reverently put on a stand is that Ellie and Joel have an important conversation before he dies. And it comes at the very end of the game. Hmm.
House of R
'The Last of Us' Season 2, Episode 2 Deep Dive
So I don't know if they'll save it for the very end of the show or if that's something they'll... A little meal that they'll serve us a little earlier on the flight. I don't know. But... I will just say without getting into too much detail for Mallory, that it does date me. Okay, Mallory.
House of R
'Yellowjackets' Episode 10 Deep Dive
Oh, you are rocking a wide-leg jean. Some 90s jeans that I feel just thrilled. I'm so glad to be out of the skinny jeans era and into the 90s.
House of R
'Yellowjackets' Episode 10 Deep Dive
Absolutely not. So my question, Molly Rubin, if you if you window or aisle.
House of R
'Yellowjackets' Episode 10 Deep Dive
Dear sweet Mari, like, sealing her own fate without meaning to is just so perfect for that character. Very tough. Mari pushing for the hunt. She's like, I know what we should do. Yeah, some great, like, shifty eyes.
House of R
'Yellowjackets' Episode 10 Deep Dive
Where was my cookie? Where was my cookie cake is the question.
House of R
'Yellowjackets' Episode 10 Deep Dive
Like, eight more characters are alive than they initially intended to be. Oh, well, here they are. Doing various things or lost in caves. Yeah.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Like, incredible stuff from my favorite person to ever have existed on television.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
What's he doing with his tooth? Killing people. Great stuff.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
And I don't want to veer too far from your excellent point that you just made there, but you don't think that they're streaming Echo in the psych ward? It's entirely possible. They're not like, let's make it a binge-watch weekend with Echo in the psych ward? No? You know, how many streamers do they have? Maybe they got the bundle. Yeah, the Hulu Disney Plus bundle, so they can also watch Hawkeye.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
That's only like, what, two episodes of Hawkeye? Three? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mac and cheese based, mostly.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
It's the drugs. It's the drugs. Don't worry about it. It's the drugs. It's the drugs, Heather. It's fine. Brutal! It's tough. I mean, things weren't going very tremendously well between Heather and Matt anyway, but like, yeah, this is a real tough beat.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Do you feel like Dr. Heather Glenn will have a large role to play in season two? Or will she just be like background in cabinet meetings sort of thing?
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
When we do this closing montage and everyone's in their, like, I don't know, character poster poses or whatever. Yeah. The golden light bathing your guy, Daniel Blake, was just truly astounding. Really astonishing stuff.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
That being said, I liked the BB development in last week's episode. Great to know that. Overdue. Yeah. Good to know.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
My hope for Heather... Yes. Who sucks and has sucked and, like, whatever. My hopes aren't high. But my hope had been last week when she, like, collapsed to the ground next to Matt Yeah. And saw Fisk just high fucking tail it out of there. No one gave a shit about Matt Murdock and no one gave a shit about her. Yeah. That she would be like, huh. I wonder who the hero in this scenario is.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Is it the guy who dove in front of a bullet for someone? Or is it the guy who just ran, like, shrieking from the room? But no, Heather likes power, it seems to me. I don't know. And I'm interested. You know what? I'm a little interested in Heather's villain era. So if that's what Heather wants to lean into in season two, I'm here for it.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Well, we were talking about this. Okay. Yeah. You mentioned, you mentioned earlier this, this, the stuff with Fisk at the end throughout really is, is, has been such a, uh,
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
trump era reflective story and it's funny because on on the prestige pod rob and i were covering your friends and neighbors and john ham is out there trying to say that your friends and neighbor is like the show for the time and i'm like i don't know about that i was like but you know like daredevil the last of us and or like the genre shows are really coming through and like a show for our times storytelling yeah
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
So good. I'm so pleased that we're back in The Last of Us territory. And I had such a good time recording The Last of Us episode one with you.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
You know. Anyway. Oh, God. Okay, so Fisk and Vanessa. They're back, baby. They're back. Can I read this great email we got from Brandon? I'd love it. Who says, I do like how another rabbit in a snowstorm was made with Matt's blood all over Wilson and his white suit.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Fisk is like, I read all your journals, Shauna. I know what you did. And it's fine. I love you anyway. Sure, you only told me 10% of the truth. It's fine. How do you feel about this Red Hook payoff? You know, all season they've been seeding this, you know, we were clocking the Red Hook mentions from the jump.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
How do you feel like this revelation that Red Hook is this, you know, legal haven, tax haven, whatever, for Vanessa to run her money laundering, her art laundering schemes through?
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Like Sam stumbling upon lore in a dusty library somewhere. Just sort of like, yeah, in an obscure document, here's this Freeport information that Vanessa also stumbled across.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
But so did Foggy. The other question is, and I don't know that I know the answer to this. And maybe they said in the season and I forgot, but like the Benny and the truck robbery, like was that more directly related to the crime? So it's like it's not just, oh, this is a Freeport, that knowledge, but that knowledge is directly related to a case that is connected to Vanessa's criminal doings.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Yeah, sorry. I was just really going to quickly say that I always love to note, drilled into me by my English teacher in high school, when people use passive voice. Yes. For him to say opportunities present themselves removes his own agency from this. It's just sort of like... I can't help but act. This just comes to me. I don't know. I'm just here in a suit. I don't know, you know?
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
And then the opportunities present themselves. So, yeah. Sheila just brought me this tape about Gallo. Oh, my God.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
I know. It's a tough one. Sheila! It's a tough one. The fact that she's, like, crying and looking guilty. I'm like, spare me your fucking tears, Sheila. If you're going to sell out, sell out. Oh, my God.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
I think him saying to Vanessa, I ran to save the city, is just the most self-delusional thing ever. I love New York. It was never about that for you, ever. And you can tell yourself a pretty lie, and Matt tells himself pretty lies all the time, so that's fine. But it was always about power, and it's also always about your father's shadow,
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
your father's thoughts and feelings around what it meant to truly be in power, to be in government, all of that sort of stuff. So, yeah, at least there's a little bit more self-awareness inside of Fisk here at the end when he's, like, descended to hell with me and cheers with me over a plate of, you know, pasta, et cetera. Like, that's... Delicious, honestly. I am a carb guy.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
I want to be a carb guy, and I support that for you, Wilson Fisk.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Very human. And I'm really glad that it's represented here, that we have not just the Bucks and the Daniels, but the Sheilas who- Self-preservation. Compromise. Like the member of the task force, Luke, who later says to Gallo, like, I'm just trying to survive. And like, you know, thinking about, I know this is not a political podcast, but like-
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Going back to last week's episode, in the kitchens of the gala, when a guy gets his hand put in the hot oil of the fryer, and Gallo... It's so disturbing now and in fiction to see people... just barrel through reprehensible behavior without... While even someone is shouting to them, these are the consequences, and they're like, what fucking consequences? And that's like... Yeah, that's not real.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
That's how I feel. I feel every single time I open another, like, New York Times headlines and they're like, the Trump administration has decided to defy the courts. It's like, just, like, what consequences? Like, and how can you stop me? How can you stop me if I don't believe in the rules we've established as a society? And this is what this Fisk administration is just sort of like...
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Oh, my God. What a fantastic question. First of all, you can watch us, by the way, on YouTube, on the Regiverse channel. You can watch us on Spotify, inside of the Spotify app. You just pull up the podcast, and there's our little faces talking about content. It's a great time. So in order to do that, it would be a good idea to follow the pod on Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Put your ear to the ground. Are you going into a cage? Or are you going to put someone else in a cage? Right. Or not even a cage for me to smash their head like Gallagher smashes a watermelon. You know what I mean?
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
No, though I will say the popping of the head, of course, is disturbing and distressing and upsetting and all that sort of stuff. But there were also moments in Frank's violent rampages. There's like one giant gout of blood that comes out of someone's groin region that I was just like, what?
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
But it was like the groin geyser that I was like, wow, here we are. Okay. Yeah. Groin geyser. I didn't do it. Frank did it. Not me. I just named it.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
I thought he uncapped that syringe way too early. In the hallway?
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Yellow jacket season two. Okay. So listen, our listener, Patrick wrote in to say, Can we talk about how over the course of nine episodes, no one in New York, a city notoriously not lacking for asshole citizens, love and respect New York, just spent a great week there. I didn't write this. Patrick did. Okay. Called out or questioned that a posh British man is walking around calling himself Buck.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
There's no world in which this man has fellow Britons calling him Buck. It's such a weird adaptive choice to turn the comics character into a British dandy. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. All right, Patrick. Welcome to a segment I'm calling Let's Rename Buck Cashman. And I would like to float to you, Mallory Rubin, a few options. Okay, you ready? Yeah.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
I mean, we're keeping Cashman even though the Brits don't really even say Cash, but that's okay. Quidman? Quid Cashman. Mm-hmm. No. Pound Cashman. Okay. Farthing Cashman. Farthing Cashman's good, yeah. Hapenny Cashman. Tenor Cashman? Yeah. Tenor, I like. Sixpence Cashman. Yeah. And if you want to go a little antiquated and make it sound like a more normal name, you could go Bob Cashman.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Subscribe to the YouTube channel. Love that. Follow us on social. That's a good idea. Jomie does a great job, as always, on all the social channels. You can see some unhinged, out-of-context clips of us talking about mushrooms or whatever the case may be. So that's all great. Also, you can always email us, hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. We have some fun Daredevil emails this week.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Because it sounds like an adult entertainment.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Cash Poundman is also very good and fits in our new spinoff. Cash Poundman. Okay. With love and respect to Farthing Cashman, who lives in my heart forever, it's going to have to be Cash Poundman going forward. And I'm for it. Cash Poundman it is. Thanks, Patrick. All right. Wow. Great stuff.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
He doesn't know. He doesn't know what it does to people. Okay. Someone who goes by at Radar Senses on Twitter with an excellent screen grab of Matt walking down the hallway in his Oswald gown. wrote, do we think Matt walked or parkoured all the way home from the hostel with his ass hanging out? And then someone who goes by at even Derek said, that's Hell's Kitchen's ass.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
And I just want to applaud that's Hell's Kitchen's ass from Evan, probably even Derek on Twitter.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Couldn't, like, grab a robe? Don't they have robes, like, thin blue robes at the hospital? Something like that?
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Steal some scrubs from Dr. Whitaker over on the pit. He's always going through scrubs as a pit reference. Okay. Okay. I can't wait to watch The Pit.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Because then you can listen to your favorite podcast to watch and their incredible interview with Noah Wiley. Oh, my God. What a get.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
I mean, speaking of a beard and some hair, Noah Wiley. My goodness.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Bad baby. Right? Dr. Robbie Rabinovich. You're going to really love him. Mallory Rabinovich. Wow.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
We also are getting a lot of The Last of Us emails from you. Thank you so much. But get ready to talk to us about Andor as well. What a time. for us on this feed. So yeah, there you go.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
In that weird scene that they... Where do you think that scene would have gone? If they originally shot it to show up elsewhere, where was it showing up? That's a great question. Like in last week's episode? Maybe. Maybe? I don't know.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
How much I hate when this happens. So, like, we have the fight. Yeah. I don't mean to yada yada you through this. We can go bow by bow, but like, Cole is hanging out, pin, you know, wrist pin to the wall.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
He's the one who killed Hector. but Matt's like, we're not killing him. That's not who I am. It's not happening. There's like nine other dead bodies in the room. And I really hate it when like a bunch of people have died and we're like, no, but Matt's like, I'm holding the line at the one who we identify as being the worst. He's the one I'm going to make sure we don't kill. I really hate that.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Yeah. God. I have a question. Yeah. And you're much more of a Frank Castle connoisseur than I am. Did he always grunt like that in his fight scenes in other appearances?
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
It was, like, almost Cash Palman territory. The, like, the grunt sounds that were coming out of John Bartholomew. This is the American gigolo. Great.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Shout out the show that literally only you and Bill watched. But we did. But two people watched it and it was awesome.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Bye, Heather. Bye, apartment. Let's go back to Hell's Kitchen. You know what did make me sad thinking about this, though? The little foggy card. Don't worry. He had it in his daredevil costume pocket. Was it in the hospital gown? Was it in the crack of his ass?
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
He grabbed it on his way up to the crack. Okay. He grabbed it on his way up to the room.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Okay. Oh, God. Our listener Dave says, long time listener, big fan. Thanks, Dave. He says, I was watching the Daredevil finale and saw a great subtitle while Frank was doing what Frank does. Disney Plus gave us, quote, flesh squelching and immediately made me think of your recurring Netflix subtitles. But Dave was demanding we bring back the Netflix subtitle segment back.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
The Last of Us is a great time to bring it back.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
It's a great call, Dave. Perhaps you will hear it soon from us, but yes. Flesh squelching. Squelching. Whatly, let's say. The Frank Castle special. All right. Oh, God. Let's hear it. Molly, let's hear it for your favorite character on television.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
I've never felt more seen. That was great. Just a great moment. I love it.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
happy absolutely the way that the way that like uh karen holds matt's history and i understand that like the idea of born again the idea of matt pretending to be someone else pretending to be foggy inside of the season conceptually is interesting like conceptually is interesting yeah in practice surrounding him with cherry who kind of pretends to know him um you know and kirsten like yeah again i
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
I hate to, like, keep drumming this. It just, like, never worked. The way that just, like, a look from Karen works. And, you know, a look from Frank works. And so the three of them together... And then to...
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
to put this love triangle, which is, which is existed and not existent from previous content, you know, like Karen and Frank have this like, there's always been a vibe, a vibe, but it was never like Frank has been yearning for Karen. That's not really a, you know, a thing. And then like Matt and Karen were flirting at the beginning of the season, but also like, Famously, he didn't go up. Yeah.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
I mean, like Matt and Karen has been like a, you know, there was Electra. There was this, that, the other thing. So it's not like they're like the OTP. But to put this dynamic together, to put Frank and Matt, because the Frank and Karen stuff. in season two of Daredevil, leaving aside the Punisher show, in season two of Daredevil, was largely Matt was absent fucking around with Elektra.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
So we didn't really get the three of them together to view this dynamic. And so the Frank and Matt dark mirror aspect and then Karen feeling a pull from both of them is great storytelling. It's fantastic. And a love triangle always works. Jesus Christ. Great stuff.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
This and Dex apartment shopping. Dex apartment. Okay. Your three priorities. Yeah. Number one, love triangle. More I heard your hearts. Number two, Dex shopping. My window guy will be there momentarily. Yeah, she's got a ping, guys. She said it. And number three, let's go to church. Let's get our ass to church.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
And Karen's like, I'll play Father Lantham if you need me to. I'll do it. Karen's like, what can't I do here at the end of the show, as it turns out?
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Part of me doesn't, part of me doesn't. Okay. I think, on the one hand, it is such cheap storytelling if they say, psych, he's not dead. Yeah. When he was killed for such shock value and all this other stuff like that. On the other hand, it will be a better show if he's in it. So, you know.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Oh, flashbacks for sure. I mean, I think they've said that he is in the second season. So, like, flashbacks at the very least. Great. We love a Foggy Matt flashback. Yeah, I mean, Eldon Henson, like... I love you. I want you to be employed. If you if they have to, you know, I hate a resurrection and a fake out death. I hate it. This is one case where I'm like, it would be better for the show.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Electric here, enhanced by, as always, a shirtless Charlie Cox being stitched up by someone. Like, it's a tried and true formula. It will always work.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
But also, not to like skip, you know, we won't go there, but like the shot of the two of them. Yeah. Sitting in the bar, like, backlit by the light, like, sitting so close and sort of hunched forward at each other. That was also incredibly electric. That was great. Yeah. I loved this. I loved all of this.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
And I loved the grimy setting of Frank's bunker, the, like, fucking bat shit yarn wall that he's got there.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
I don't know if they have Michaels in New York City, but I think they're all at a red yard. I think he's got it all covered. So yeah, the griminess of the setting. Again, I think we're getting closer and closer to the grime and the grit and the darkness of the original series that I like. And I felt that in this setup here.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
fuck yeah yeah let's let's okay let's say that was intentional all season we've been in the day and I'm like where's my daredevil set at night and then at the end we get the blackout and then it's like daredevil set at night again great I love that that's what it should be no I loved this I thought it was amazing and then Frank crunches some pills and I got so disturbed by it you know Karen kind of moves over to him because he gets up and she's like are you you know how are you doing can I take a look
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Oh, Karen. Will you be my eyes? Karen's like, guess what I know my way around? A file box. Guess where I spent 85% of my time in the original Daredevil series? In a file room.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
how he feels she's like yeah you did he's like hey karen i love you and she's like yeah i know you do and then she walks out and then he says be safe i know after the door shut in a way that she can't hear but matt murdoch can i'm just saying uh matt certainly heard that um
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Matt says, what? Karen says, you sound like you're jealous. Matt says, you know, back at his place, I heard your heartbeats. And she says, God, that's really not fair. You heard his too?
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Was it beating fast for me? Oh, yeah. She's like, it's just adrenaline, I'm sure. You hear mine when I saw you? Yeah? Yeah. Adrenaline, I'm sure. Right? Like, great. Absolutely perfect. Great shit. Yeah. Our listener Molly wrote in with something that I can just assure Molly and anyone listening was already in my notes.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Molly wrote, after years of mostly silence, the Karen and Frank shippers on Tumblr were nothing short of jubilant that the other night this image made me cackle. Had to share with you guys due to the Lestat crossover. And it's a screen grab. It's just like...
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Karen says something, something, something, and Matt, and it's just an image of Lestat from Interview the Vampire going, I heard your hearts dancing. I understood that reference. I know. I got so excited to share it with you, but I 100% wrote in my notes, I heard your hearts dancing. This is a real, surrealist at moment for Matt Murdock.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Two characters I didn't think had much in common, but here we are. Well, here we are.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
And then we get the avocados at law sign. I found this almost unbearable. It moved me so deeply. It was so beautiful. I liked this moment. It was a little... It was ever so slightly clunky because I feel like it was like, let's explain this for people who didn't watch the original series. Yeah, Karen being like, I never really got it. Never.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Asked about avocados at law. No, Karen. But... You know that Nelson v. Murdoch is one of my favorite episodes of the show, and I just got really emotional about it.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Hi, I'm Joanna Robinson, and she didn't say it, but that's Mallory Rubin. You didn't say your name for the first time ever. Hello.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Ugh. The, like, you know, the card that he's had... is, like, this just really thin connection or trying to explain who Foggy was to Heather. Like, it's just, like, not the same as being with Karen, who loved Foggy as much as he did. And, yeah, it's beautiful.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Straight to hell. Straight to hell. First and foremost, I hate to get ahead of ourselves. This is really the Last of Us thing, but do you remember how, when we recorded the Last of Us episode, Two weeks or nine years ago, whatever that was. I was talking about how in the video game, instead of a bear outside of the market, Ellie and Dina see a moose.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Yeah, it feels so right to me that, like, a year... Yeah. It's been a year, right? Like, a year of space and silence. You can find... you know, just empathy. You can just like let go of the resentments and find empathy for the other person. It feels really right to me.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
He said the wrong name. Kind of done here. Moment of clarity for Heather as well, you know? Oh, boy.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
This is where the real groin geyser happened. I just want to make it clear in case people go back and scrub through the footage and they're like, where was it? It was here. Coming up a ramp. Yes. It was come up a ramp. The fanboy was coming down the ramp and then groin geyser.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So this whole interaction with Powell, I think this is... I think Powell has been a good use... I feel like I understand Powell better than Sherry. Like, it's just been a weird season of television. But Powell as this sort of B-string villain and his... interaction with Frank makes... It really works for me. Like, it really, really works. This whole thing. This was great.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
This whole entire... ACAB, fuck the cops who think the Punisher logo exemplifies what they do and whatever. It's great for the show to interact with that.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
And I was like, yeah, but you can't really, can you really make a good food pun with moose?
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
That's for you. Interview with a vampire is for me. Survivor is for you. It's all here. And that's why we're a dream team.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
The second he got in a car. It's a bad sign. The second he got in a car and it wasn't his usual driver. No. The second he said I'm going to Albany tomorrow. I'm like, go now is what I would say to you, my friend. Yeah, exactly. Tough. My question for you is, how did you read the reaction of people in the room?
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
And a bunch of our listeners wrote in and wrote in with a moose boosh.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
The people who are watching this happen. How did that read to you?
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
It's a no for me. Same thing happened with The Mountain and the Viper. There's a lot of, like, screaming and struggling before the pop, you know? Oh, boy.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
You just said a moose boosh. I was like, I can't wait. I can't wait to share with you a moose boosh. Even though we won't be together again in mere days. I couldn't wait. To talk about Last Dress. I love it. Okay. I love it. Guess what? What? I liked this finale. That was great. I liked it. I didn't, like, I think a lot of people liked the last two episodes.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
I love that they rock up here and like for all we like joke about the fact that like Matt He heals faster than he should. He literally, like, just got shot. And he, like, they roll up there, and they're like, he's like, ugh. That's a lot of pressure on the old shoulder. He's like, ugh. She's like, maybe not today. She's like, you're hurt.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
um whenever anyone is on a slightly sort of rocky advantage looking and there's like a bunch of troops yeah it's always a wizard of oz moment for me um so i was thinking about that but yeah it's um did you think that karen should have said like we have the high ground and just gone forward or no did you think this was the right call it's over task force we have the high ground
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
You underestimate our power! But I liked this invocation. We get a couple invocations inside of this episode. And similar to last week's episode, when Gallo and Bebe had that conversation about her uncle, this is a question we had had. We're like, does the show even know that Bebe's uncle was killed by Fisk?
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
And in these last two episodes, they're answering a lot of these questions of like, does the show even know about Agent Nadim? All this sort of stuff like that. And so Karen invoking... The Thousand Suns, which is such an impactful Daredevil moment. Again, it's just like really tying the tapestry together between the two shows in a way that I really value. So, yeah.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Kirsten... Well, Anthony, but we got Kirsten and Cherry and Josie and that one cop lady from the bank episode and some other cop, like two other cop ladies. And that's our army right now.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
I've heard a lot of, I guess, we're back. Maybe I wasn't here last week for the penultimate. Thank you so much to Ben Lindberg and Daniel Chin for filling in. But, like, I heard a lot of we're back. great, this is the era of the new showrunners, these last two episodes, blah, blah. I didn't, I wasn't as high on last, despite an excellent turn for my guy, Dex. I wasn't, I've heard,
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Yeah, 100%. Oh, man. Good stuff. Kristen Ritter's like, fuck you, pay me, okay? I'm not getting back into the leather and knitwear for nothing. Pay me.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
And she'll say, I rewound it like five times to watch Sheila go, sir, sir. And Daniel physically pushes her back.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Or was she going to be like, by the way, are we sure this is the right thing to do? She has not had a shower. And so she's like... Because, sorry, correct me if I'm wrong, she wasn't at the Gallo head popping, right? Yeah. So when he says, Gallo has left the city, she gets this look on her face like, oh, fuck.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
So I feel like her, excuse me, sir, was going to be like, how did that Gallo thing happen? One moment of your time. I meant to ask. Gallo? Did we send him to the Caymans? How's he doing?
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
It's a very special day. It's a very special day. We're here to crunch. Okay, here's a quick question for you. Yeah. As Frank Castle is crunching on some, I don't know, pain relievers, one assumes.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
By the way, he claims to love New York City, but curfew at 8 means no more theater in New York? No more nights at the bar? Or shuddering Broadway? You've gone too far, Wilson Fisk.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
You just got that tripping. You came for literally everyone's rights and I said nothing. But then you came for musicals. And you took a stand at last. And it was too late.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Karen, have you ever talked with Foggy? Did you ever talk about with Foggy that I'm really a shitty lawyer? Dude.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
that you can fix him. I know I can. And now he has a tooth that also needs fixing. And that door that he was standing behind needs fixing. Step one, the dentist. Step two, a window guy. Yeah, a pain guy. I got a glass guy.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Recast as he had to be because original OG little Maddie is like 90 now.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
But little Maddie Murdoch staring out the stained glass window talking about faith is like the closest we get to going to church, right? Needed it.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
I just need to read this email we got from our listener, Lally. I'll be praying for fisting gloves in prayer and service to the divine in season two. Looking forward to all your thoughts, feelings, and reactions to this episode. Lolly, thank you so much for understanding what House of R is about. We're like, let's get ourselves to church, but let's put on the fisting gloves before we go.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
That's why Holly wrote that in the email. It's just a continuing conversation week after week. It's a callback to our previous fisting gloves combo.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
I believe that. I do. Anyway, so I thought the penultimate was fine, good. I thought this was really good. And I had a great time with it. It doesn't change my... feeling about the season overall, necessarily. I still feel like it was a quite patchy season. And if anything, it kind of underlines a lot of the problems of the previous episodes. Because when you have...
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
who needs who needs clips when we can have Mallory Rubin's voice roughened with emotion reading it for us oh my god that's wrath that's mercy so good the specific use of these biblical yeah uh words again Karen is not someone who like we would expect to be in sort of this, like, Father Lantham, Sister Maggie Grace, like, sort of role. But, like, it's... Sorry, I said Sister Maggie Grace.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
That's not what... Sister Maggie... Maggie Grace is an actress from Lost. Okay. Anyway. But that's Wrath, That's Mercy. I got, like, chills. That's Wrath, That's Mercy. That's The Dark and the Light. He knew all of it, all of it. He read your journal, Shauna. He knew you. I do, too. Like, it's... It's great. I do. And, like, she's got her hands clasped around his neck.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Like, heads bowed towards each other. And it's, like, there is, like, romantic sexual tension between these two. But even, like, you rarely clasp your hands around someone's neck unless you're going to try to, like, make out with them or something like that. In my personal experience. But, like... But that's not what that felt like to me.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
That just felt like a let's hold each other close and no space between us. Like this, I see you, I know you. The kiss on the forehead.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
And people have not known you all season. You've been around these fuckers who don't know you. I know you. It's really good.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
My favorite prog rock band, the Matthew Murdock experience. But yeah.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
resist rebel rebuild yeah it's like Andor season 2 resist rebel rebuild yeah great stuff when he said rebel I got really excited for Andor me too me too it was like Pavlovian I literally couldn't help but think about Star Wars and Radiohead is like yeah what a what a few great few weeks for Radiohead needle drop we got it for for Vans exit from Yellow Jackets um um everyone's paying Tom York Tom York's just raking it in and I love that for him
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
The prisoners. So Jack Duquesne is down there in a cage. Frank Castle's down there in a cage. We think that Artemis' husband, Arthur, is down there in the cage. Do you know where he is? In the previous episode, again, Nurse Dana from The Pit. Can't wait for you to meet Nurse Dana. But like, yeah, in a previous episode, she's like, have you seen my... She's like, um, best not to offend King.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
I don't know. Everything's fine. My sassy mouth from a few episodes ago is gone. Along with my husband. I don't know where he is. Is he in the Caymans? I don't know. No, he's in a cage. Yeah. Underground with Jack. Jack, by the way, looking great. He was making it work. Ever so slightly rumpled in his finery. But the hair looks great. Looking great.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Frank and Karen, your favorite character, Karen, show up. She might be. I know, honestly. All of a sudden, there's, like, actual depth of emotion and connection between the characters. You're like, ah, this is the stuff, Lionel, you know?
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
I would love a lot more Jack Duquesne in season two. Thank you so much. And Frank Castle's there, but not for long. Because the dumbest guy to ever live. Anthony. Anthony. Anthony. Anthony from Jersey is like, sure, Mr. Frank Castle, sir.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
I'll shake your fucking hand. I loved this performance from Bernthal. I will say this. And I don't want to yuck your yum. I think there were a few Frank Castle line deliveries earlier in the episode that felt like...
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
dialed up to 15 that's why I love it I agree I was just like okay I agree but here when he was trying to be a little smoothie in his cage and using his like chains to hoist himself up I was like this yeah the chain hoist was honestly magical this is great and that's it on to season two of Daredevil Born Again on to the Punisher special who would you rather foolishly approach in a cage Frank Castle or Jamie Lannister
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Okay. You know, you're pro Lannister. Team Lannister. Okay. Always. Always. I love, more than anything else, I love that my guy Dex made the final montage. That was great. It made me so happy for season two. That was great.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
The words he says are like... He was like, blah, blah, blah. It's our city, right? And he says, the weak, and it's on to Angela. And then he says, the strong. The strong is over Angela's face.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
And so it's like, it just makes, with love and respect to Cherry and Kirsten, it just, like, makes it feel even more of a failure, and Heather, certainly, that it, like, never really felt this way with any of those characters. But I really loved... The Karen, Frank, and Matt stuff. Give me a love triangle. I'm all about it. I thought the Fisk stuff was good, too.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Is that what you think is certainly going to happen? Definitely going to happen? Yeah. Is there any way in which we get Kamala?
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Can you imagine how cute Charlie Cox's Matt Murdock and Kamala would be. Kamala would be. It was so cute.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
I'm glad to have gone through the experience. I'm glad to have revisited Daredevil on Netflix and be reminded how much I loved it. Same. I'm glad that it feels like it's a step in the right direction. A step in the right direction makes us hopeful for things like Thunderbolts and Fantastic Four. Like, if we are pivoting towards the light, then I will be excited. I'm... Pet Avengers one.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Thunderbolts. Come on. I'm so excited. We'll see.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Rent a flat above Josie's. Hopefully it's got great windows and that's all we ask for.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Yeah. It sounds to me like there's some openings in the building. I don't know. It might be a bit of a triggering place for that to live. Doesn't it seem like not all of those people made it out of that stairwell fight alive and so their apartments might be open?
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
And it doesn't change my feelings about season one, but it does make me more excited for season two. So I'm feeling pretty good about it. Before I take it back to you in the studio, Mallory Rubin, can I read... Oh, bug setting? I just love when I see her enter. She's here to claw at my foot for attention.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
If you see me, like, cringe and flinch, it's because she sunk her little needle nails into me. Okay, so... Can I read two emails quickly before I get to your take on it? Okay. Give us the double call, Steve. We got several emails from people being like, hey, I want to talk about why... Thank you. Why this season has been working for me. Right? We got a bunch of those at the end of the season.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Were you thinking of... Tim Ratliff and his dry pill swallowing.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Great stuff. Yes. Our listener, Ashton, wrote in to say... I think part of why I found the show more enjoyable than some folks is that the first seven episodes kind of felt like working through some of the tougher Daredevil comic arcs. I can never fully forgive Kevin Smith and his Antichrist baby run.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
Even when the story didn't make full sense or we had to deal with characters we didn't like, Heather Glenn wasn't all that great in the comics either. It felt like such a gift to be back in Daredevil's world and having scenes like the Frank and Matt conversation gave me glimmers of hope for the future. It doesn't hurt that Charlie Cox positively oozes charm, regardless of the quality of writing.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
So Ashton was pointing out that in conjunction with this return to Daredevil on TV, Ashton was sort of reading through all the comics again and was just sort of like, you know, even a patchy Daredevil comic is like a Daredevil comic. So I thought that was interesting. And then Katie wrote in with a little bit of a critique.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
I was like, I retract every negative thing I said about Tim Ratliff because at least he was swallowing and not fucking crunching a pill. Anyway, is this what people come for on a Daredevil pod? Good question.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
I do think, without question, the Frank stuff enhanced this last episode, without question. Yeah. Did it at time feel like Dario, who, to remind everyone, was the Punisher showrunner, was a little more interested in Frank than he was in Matt in this final episode? Yeah. Maybe. And so Katie says, some moments made this episode not feel like a Daredevil show.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
I loved all the castle content, but not if it means we're spending too much time away from Matt, which also leads into my final point that this episode felt like a great mid-season episode, but not a finale. It was like we were brought right to the inflection point of the conflict, and then we were given a wall. Right. We're missing a major showdown between Daredevil and Kingpin.
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
But I guess that's more illuminating of the fact that the original creators intended this to be an 18-episode season. So that's a good way to think about season two. This being sort of like, not in the cynical, Netflix is going to cut...
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
squid game in half for you know whatever reasons but for creative reasons trying to fix the flow of the season we do wind up with kind of a half of a season which is not the end of the world but like I can you can kind of feel it inside of this episode so um Mallory what do you think about any of that or what do you think about this episode or this season as a whole yeah I uh
House of R
'Daredevil: Born Again' Episode 9 Deep Dive
The way he's like, it was so, I mean, obviously pill addled, but also just sort of like his sad resignation of like, you want me to kill someone? Like I'm just a killing. That's who I am now. I'm just like a killing machine. I used to, I used to have promise. Also, I'm sorry. I just, I need to pause and just say, The tooth escape last week was so good.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
She's like, I've been doing some research. Guess what? This is so good. It will be inversely proportional to the level of anxiety you generate in our lives.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I hear the critiques of it. I had a great time with the Maya Pig Brigade. I'm a fan.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Incredible stuff. And then Edie's like, love you. Love a strong woman. I also love that Edie was just sort of like doing her weird shit with her cake. And Deirdre was like using the tip of her spoon to curl off Heidi's little shaving of frosting. Yeah. I'm more in the Edie camp in that one. Oh, yes. I know you love a dessert.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Loved it. I'm so excited. Me too. I'm full-blown Z's Mallory Rubin and say I'm pre-devastated. I'm pre-graving. I know. That we only have three more weeks with Andor. Why could this show not have been more seasons? Or released in a slower cadence.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Thanks, SmileyRubin. Thanks so much for asking me. I guess... The project started as Patch on one of the folks at the chronic meeting was really good. I will also say, the fact that Niamos, a season one song remix, and also the name of the planet where Cassian got nabbed and sent to Narcena 5, is that essentially like Will Smith's Miami? It's the name of the planet, it's the name of the track.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Wasn't it Space Miami? Wasn't that essentially where he was grabbed? Yeah, exactly. Okay, great. Yeah. Bienvenidos a Miami, then.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Location is really a fun one. Is that where he finds Tivic? Yeah. R.I.P.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I have a really fun fact for you about Cassidy Andor's fit in this scene. Okay, so Michael Wilkinson, who's the costume designer on Andor, did season one as well, has done a lot of Zack Snyder, David O. Russell movies, etc., Was talking about, okay, so they make this very special look for Cassian. The red shoulders are unusual, right? We're used to seeing all black on these folks.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And we've seen Cassian, right, in, you know, Imperial Blacks in Rogue One. But they're like, he's our guy. He's going to be in this for three episodes. We want to make it a little flashy. But this is my favorite fun fact about this. Quote, we also scaled down the classic TIE fighter helmet to be better proportioned to Diego's frame.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Diego Luna, a giant among men in terms of performance, but I have met him and Gael Garcia Bernal together, and they are both just real little guys. And, you know, they scaled down the TIE fighter helmet for him.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I also like the way that Tony was talking about this on the watch. This idea of, like, you see the stage lights go on is how he sort of described it. And, like, we meet Cassian and he's in costume. And, like, so much of what the Rebellion is doing in this era is performance. We've seen it from Luthan and his, like, wig work. We see it from Mon all the time.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
But it's just sort of like, here's Cassian who... didn't really do a lot of it in season one in terms of, like, role-playing anything. Like, he comes with a fake name to be part of the Aldani plot, but, like, how well was he really acting? Not really. So, like, as he moves... Good old Clem had people on his case in a hurry. In a heartbeat. But, like, you know...
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Also, if you don't already know, Tony Gilroy has some of the best hair in the entire business, and that is worth admiring. As he says, some of the most intelligent things you've ever heard in your life. And Chris, they do an incredible job in interviewing him. Wonderful stuff. Check it out, The Watch.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
What is new inside of his playbook? This is Cassian, the leader. Cassian, the actor, is who we're going to see here.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And I am just thrilled about that. Here's the most important thing about tuning into House of R. I have now, in the last however many days, listened to so many podcasts and breakdowns and read so many think pieces and whatever about these episodes of Anders. Nobody is spending enough time on the horniness the way that you will, Mallory Rubin, our expert in horny.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And I think what's fascinating about thinking about this interaction with Naya is that comparing... Now, Naya is expressing her doubts about stepping into this role for the first time. She's in a different place. But comparing this...
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
to when we meet Cassian in Rogue One with Tivic and like the uh the in the disingenuous glad handing that he's doing with that character and then the absolute like mercenary way in which he treats his character which is very controversial as far as I remember it introduction to Cassian where people are like this is our hero like what are we talking about here um
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
So I don't see them as separate because obviously, again, the two people that he's handling are different. But also we've got four years to go. So what is going to take the Cassian here who is a leader but in a very empathetic and patient way to the maybe more desperate Cassian that we meet inside of Rogue One, you know? Yeah.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Chris and Andy made a meal of that, too, and I really appreciated that. I think that, like... Again, it ties into what I was saying about the idea of, like, the comfort of conformity, right? Like, she had a job that she liked and colleagues that she liked doing a thing that was fun for her. And so there's the act of rebellion that comes from discomfort, right?
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
You're the Ferrix crew on the run, and they're checking visas. You're this, you know, you're this, that, or the other. You're... The Aldanis and your sacred right is being taken away from you. You're this, that, or the other things. There's active oppression. There's a boot on your neck. There's something squeezing your neck.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And this is what Luthan is trying to – Tony Gilroy referred to Luthan as an accelerationist. Yeah. A person who puts accelerant on a rebellion to make it harder and harder and harder to endure, that's how you incite rebellion, is kicking off these harsh measures, what happens in Arkena 5, all this sort of stuff like that. So there's that rebellion, but then the rebellion from inside of comfort...
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
...inside is a different kind of emotional rebellion, what Mon is doing from inside of her privilege or, you know, and I'm not saying one is better than the other. They're just different kinds of rebellion that are worth exploring.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Well, what it offers you. What does being inside of this circle offer you? You know what I mean? Like what is Leda getting from stepping inside of that circle? And what is Naya getting from stepping inside this circle? And what is Dedra getting from stepping inside this circle? You know? And there are good circles than they're about circles, I would say. Yeah.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
What I like about the Maya Pay Brigade is that like... You love the Maya Pay Brigade? I do, I do. I love this. I love this. It's like, this is so clean, right? Yes. Come step inside the circle. Okay, I'm giving you nourishing, calm, kind words, and we are radicalizing you in a really fun and exciting way. And then the Maya Pay Brigade, he's like, come inside the circle. We're on the same team.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
So glad you asked. Listen, as you mentioned, you can watch us on YouTube or on the Spotify app. You can follow up the pod on your podcast of choice. That's a fun thing to do. Follow us on social. Hashtag Save Joanie's Job. He's the best, and we haven't heard that hashtag in a while. I thought I'd bring it back. Follow us on Instagram. Follow us on TikTok. Follow us on Twitter, et cetera, et cetera.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And they're like, Rochambeau, maybe? You know, like, it's messy. Roski rules, maybe? And that's because... Luthen is the circle, but Luthen's network and leadership is so shaky at this moment.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
We got a clear indication of this, and I know you have this, Mark, to talk about a little bit later as well, but when hearing Saw and Luthen talk about all the different factions that are cropping up, and there's no united force, right? So what are we headed towards? This sort of united rebellion that we get... In A New Hope and in Rogue One, we need leadership. We need Mon.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
We need, like, a bunch of other people to assume that leadership role. Luthen right now has this really rickety, loose connection of spies and informants and agents. And, you know, if they can't get signal on Shandrila, like, no one has guidance, right?
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Like, he's doing incredible things. Like, what he's pulling off. While Donnie is this huge, incredible thing that is his orchestration, but also in terms of, like, there are different leaders for different times in a rebellion, right? And so Luthen is this sort of inciting, shadowy figure is one thing. By the time we get to the rebellion later, we need people like Mama. You know, so it's...
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
what is Luthan's role now, you know, at this point in Rebellion?
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
One thing the Empire has down... is branding and a look.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And the rebellion needs to, you know, they need their logo. They need their, you know, they need all the things that they will eventually have to be a cohesive group, you know?
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And always... Email us. Hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. Your Andor email is excellent. Your Last of Us email is excellent. Like, thank you so much. I've been getting a lot of Dramini emails recently from folks. Thanks so much. Incredible stuff. People catching up on the Romantasy episode. I love it. I mean, it's great.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I love that. It reminded me of Luthan does like a, there's a, I feel like Tony Gilroy is like, Check. Like space race, fighter fight, dog fight. Check. I did it. You Star Wars nerds. I gave it to you. And it was good. It was fun.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Great stuff. The range troopers with their fur look absolutely sick, look amazing.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Well, it's crucial to plot that it be very hard to figure out how to fly this ship. Yeah. Yeah.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
So you're saying Anakin, you're saying Anakin hopping to a ship as a toddler and being like, oh. Just like pod racing.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
It also just matters a lot to me that how unflappable Clea is, honestly. She's just sort of like, I don't know, get over it.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Genuinely, it's hard for me to pick because my first thought is actually a Vel moment when Vel gives her the old elevator eyes.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Tom Felton was recently given a piece of fan fiction, and I got to hear Tom Felton with his own mouth say, oh, is this one of those Draminis? Delightful. Great. Okay. That's it.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Oh, I got one. Clea can do anything that she wants. I love her. And I love that, like, she was such an interesting background. They're pulling a lot of the background characters into the four, which is really fun. And she was such a fun background character in season one. And it really seems like season two, you know, she's stepping into the light.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
By the way, you're, you were trying to do redacted to save me from spoilers, but I was like pretty sure anyway, you're talking about it.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
They're arguing before, like, the minute he gets there, they're arguing. I love that Tony Gilroy called them Heckle and Jekyll. I love a really dusty reference. A family affair, Jo. Yeah. So, Tony Gilroy's son... Is here. And also his nephew-in-law, Ben Norris, his nephew-in-law, I know very well from Never Have I Ever.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And Ben Norris is one of those actors on Never Have I Ever where he was like a background doofus. And then he was so fun that he basically became a main character in the final season because he was just like so delightful. So I was like, oh, my God. It's the guy from Never Have I Ever in a Star Wars. It's like when Adam Pally shows up in a Star Wars.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
So, like... I was really excited, but I did not know that was Tony Gilroy's son until I found out later, and he looks just like him. So, of course. But I don't know. I just... I loved these idiots. I thought they were great. I, um... Maya Pay is dead, though. Rest in peace, Maya Pay.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Did it feel like plot necessity for him to just be away from Mina Rao so that everything could go down with a ferris wheel?
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Yeah, and it struck me. It felt very... One of our listeners ran into sort of comp and or Avatar The Last Airbender. We'll talk about that later. But it felt very Avatar The Last Airbender to me of just sort of like, how do these divisions start over something so stupid? You know, like, this is the thing. And like, I...
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I would say now more than ever, something you highlighted in our Notes from the Watch episode that I thought was so important is that Tony Gilroy was talking about how he was trying to write a story that feels timeless, that feels eternal, that a lot of these cycles of rise of fascism and the things that come with it and the difficulties you find inside of a rebellion or inside of a leftist front are universal.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
He's not trying to make a commentary. This was supposed to come out couple years ago it's not it's not he's not writing a show for 2025 that being said my experience my personal experience coming off of this i would say last election cycle yeah um has made this storyline feel so relevant to me in terms of the infighting.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
That's not just, like, there's dumb infighting here, but then there's, like, to Saw's point, Saw abatting, but, like, full of points sometimes, to Saw's point, everyone's convinced that they're the only sane one. You know what I mean? And so you're just sort of like, well, if they would just get it together and come huddle under my umbrella, we could form a coalition.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Tony Gilroy, not just on The Watch, but elsewhere, has been like, I feel for the poor podcasters.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And it's like, none of us are forming a coalition, and we're a mess over here. And so... It just really hit for me, I think, in a way that maybe it wouldn't have a couple years ago.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Something I think is really interesting about this is that the, first of all, Once again, we get specificity even on Yavin, right? Because we get, like, the Dubar, which is the creature here named for a guy who worked on the creature design, right? And then the melons. We're getting all this information about Yavin and, like...
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I don't know, just think Yavin as a rebel base has always looked extremely cool with the temples and all that sort of stuff like that. But what was Yavin up to before the rebels were like, this is our base now, you know what I mean? And it's just sort of like gross melons and we're scary animals in the jungle, but that's its own sort of culture, you know?
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
You might get to be back with some of these characters? Or do you think they're going to get eaten in the night? I am rooting for them. I want Heckle and Jekyll returned to be at the rebel base. I think I said Dubars, Dudar. Please don't stop writing your emails. Thank you so much. Love you. Love you always. Sweet Dudar.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
It's simply a no for me. Simply a no. By Yellow Jackets rules, they would not be starving and would not be having to eat those drooly melons.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Well, Mallory, perhaps they simply wouldn't eat a person out in the wilderness.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And it's like, uh, 50 by 10. Watching Cassian fumble his flight of the TIE Avenger is one thing. Great stuff. But then, like, watching them manually move this, like, extremely expensive, well-calibrated piece of machinery with ropes. It's real Flight of the Phoenix energy. It's really good.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I would just like to cite something I learned from StarWars.com and it is this. In five hands, there are 15 animal gestures, including rancor, snork, and snooze bird, which are displayed by two players in three rounds overseen by a referee. Love it. I mean...
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Oh my God, thank you so much for associating me with my best friend, Cyril Karn, who we are back with. Mallory, what a thrill and a delight to be on a second podcast with you this week where we are podcasting about something truly phenomenal. I know, it's... What a wonderful time to be us.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
This is what you wrote in our notes. You didn't say it, but this is what you wrote. Our guy loves hidden treasures behind panels he can bang open. That's correct. I stand by the take. Phrasing. Okay, go ahead.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Oh, I love this. Tanashi, I believe, is a listener, wrote in to say, Wanted to share the skies of a different color because the agricultural planet has a different atmosphere, which affects light dispersion, extra light hazy blue, but allows for better crop growth, hence the very unique and different color. I love that. Also, really fun fact, they planted ancient rye. They took a year.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
They convinced a farmer, I believe near Pinewood in Oxfordshire, to... forget your wheat crop. Plant us this ancient rye crop. Take a year to grow it so we can film a Star Wars. Incredible. And then, like, because of the strike and all this other stuff, they had to, like, cut it and preserve it and use it inside studios and, like, this whole thing. But, like, they grew fields of ancient rye? Um...
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Which made me think of the fields of Athenry, but that's a different, that's a different thing. We could talk about that later, but I just really love this. And I love that Tony Gilroy, he's like, this is a feeder. This is a, this is a planet that produces the grain that feeds Coruscant.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
So in terms of like the chain of like, who's eating what, you know, Dedra and Cyril are eating fondue or on Shendrila, they're just gorging on every delicacy possible. Yeah. You know, the poor, our poor heroes, the Maya Pei Brigade are eating disgusting melon. And here on Mineral, they're growing, you know, the wheat for people to feast on. I just think that's really interesting.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I mean, we are in Bix's dream. You weren't missing... You weren't longing for... Dr. Gorst? Spend more time with Gorst?
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I think something you mentioned in the text thread that we have with CR about this was you were citing in our Last of Us coverage earlier this week, Alyssa wrote in about the book The Body Keeps the Score, which is a book that I've been – it's dense, but I've been working my way through it. But this idea of like what – how trauma lingers inside of the body and stuff like that.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And so for Bix, there's this nightmare and there's just this – Yeah, just the lingering effects, the rooting in of something like this. And what I love about this is so like, especially on rewatch, not love, obviously, this is horrible for our beloved Bix, but like on rewatch, first of all, the POV of like, we're in there, but we don't know who we are.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And then we look in the mirror and we're gorsed. Horrifying, right? But then also, so she wakes from this nightmare and Brasso's there and then Talia's there. Sweet B. And B and Will, but like, Talia, if you track her through these three episodes, knowing that Bea is going to be in her care at the end, every minute of screen time is there to show us what a nurturing, kind, caring person Talia is.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Thank God. Comforting Bix, like, so good at it that Brasso and Wilkin have this side conversation as Talia takes the wheel on comforting Bix here. She wraps her arms around Brasso later in this comforting hug. You know, she's just like a nourishing...
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
beautiful ginger woman that i'm just sort of like if if if i'm to leave b in anyone's care i'm so happy it's this person and there's just like very little time to know that but every single individual decision is like you're gonna feel okay you'll be comfortable as comfortable as you can as you can be with b being left behind with this person you know
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I still have some notes, but yes, I think that's a great point. I'm glad you said it. It brings me some peace. As opposed to like the fucking daughters of Ferris who put a beverage on top of B's head, you know, like Hollywood never. So, you know. She knows who his friends are, as we learn.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I don't know how to explain the neurotoxins that come out of the TV screen whenever I see Bea there and I'm just like a puddle. I love Bea.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Well, that's the thing. He's like, he's going to be never catch us now. He's going to be fine. He's got friends.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Have any of the bad babies chimed in? Oh, I'm so glad you asked. First of all, and hopefully this clears up. Sometimes I just say BBY to mean anything having to do with a timeline. And that comes from podcasting about Star Wars with Mallory Rubin. Okay.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I found that really powerful. So you mentioned Bix is there, Will is there, Brasso's there, Bea is there. Marva's there because there's a painting of Marva up in their home.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
It's a long walk from the silos, Mal. That's all I know. Dude, it really is.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I know you care about the baby wise. Okay. Before the battle of Yavin, in case you didn't know. Okay, so Austin, our listener Austin says, since Andor is nigh upon us, I wanted to submit a naming idea for a pod segment you all often do that I've been thinking about for a year or so now. Wow.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And then it's, yeah, with Ferex is so interesting because that was like they were under like corporate rule before they were under imperial rule, you know, and there's just like different versions of it. And I love what you're saying about this idea of like you never know. In some places they're everywhere. And in some places they might surprise you every decade or so.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And the psychological warfare aspect of that, how it looms is really interesting. Yeah. Yeah.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
They use language like toolies, uh, you know, people have visas, et cetera, et cetera. Like what are the various strations?
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
We know that Mallory will be honoring the tradition of diving into Star Wars timelines as she is wont to do. And I submit that anytime this happens on the pod from here on, that it should be referred to as the bad BB wise. Yeah. I think it just makes too much sense and who doesn't love a pun portmanteau. So the bad babies, which also comes from Star Wars. That's right. Plus the BBYs, the bad BBYs.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Okay, here's my question. Here's my question. Okay, so Lieutenant Kroll immediately creeping on Bix. We all understand what is going on immediately here. And she says her husband wouldn't appreciate it. Yeah. And everywhere I've read has said Bix lies and says her husband blah, blah, blah. Do we know? Like, how are you reading their sort of reunion at the end of this episode? Like, do you know?
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Romantically. Yeah. Yeah. So they share a bed. Are they married? I don't know. But, like, she's on one side of a bed for two when she has her nightmare. Right. So, like, are they – they could be married. It's been –
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
But she kind of told him to piss off when he pulled his Romeo and Juliet shit in season one. But then, I don't know. Yes. I guess when he comes and scrapes you off the floor and saves you from the full gore sting, then, you know, you might forgive a guy.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Boy. I bet it doesn't take three days to get married when you're on the run is what I'll say. Yeah.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
But here's the question I have about the Bix of it all. If Bix and Cassian are like some sort of large love story of this season, does it change at all how you feel about Cassian and Jyn when we get to Rogue One? Do you know? That's a question I have.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
shout out bix for i mean later straight up a murdering dude but also um this part where she like makes steam come out of the like the mechanical thing that can you tell i'm not a mechanic uh the the piece of machinery list not doctor not scientist not a scientist not a mechanic Honestly, genuinely unqualified for most things. Not a pilot.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
So the bad BBYs that we're dealing with here is we are in four BBY, four years out from A New Hope, et cetera. I think this is a great suggestion. The bad BBYs.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
The piece of machinery that she's working on. She like, she has, you know, she turns. Oh God, I'm going to stop talking about it. Anyway. You're doing great.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
It'll do in a pinch. Yeah, I wrote space Amish question mark in my notes. But like, by the way, given the way that people are shacking up with outsiders, this isn't exactly witness territory. But it did remind me a lot of the barn raising. Yeah.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Did you think that droid puppet was cute because it was an it was an AT-AT, wasn't it? Isn't it like a war machine? Was it? I think it is.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
There's some bad BBYs a little bit later inside of something we learned about Dedra, I would say.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
He's got droid friends. This is like, okay, here's what I'll say. This is so sad to me. And I texted this to you when I was sort of finished. I did a loop back through Andor Season 1 before, and watching all the B scenes, I was just like, knowing that B is not in Rogue One, And I was just like, genuinely, I would not survive if I had to watch Bea die. No, I couldn't handle it.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I have to hope that there is a limit and that they know that. So if the alternative of killing Bea but taking him off the board is to send him to a farm upstate where he can frolic and run up the hill with Talia with his droid friends and a bunch of little kiddos. Like, just think about the fact that, like, Bea... Like, helps raise Cassian. Like, loves kids.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Like, will get to bond with, like, new kids. I need Cassian to say goodbye to him.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Just slightly more than we got for the last episode asking where Shimmer the horse was. Everyone is very concerned about Bea and very concerned about you, Mallory, and your feelings about Bea. And I support that. Okay.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I feel like it's just, like, a background character being brought to the fore, you know?
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Something that Tony Gilroy said on The Watch, I know that this is just three days, we know, because it takes place over the wedding. Something he said on The Watch implied to me that maybe all of them will just be three-day chunks every year. I was wondering about that, too, when he said that, yeah. That's what it sounded like to me, so that's interesting.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Philip wrote an email and he says, I was watching the first three episodes of Andor Season 2 and noticed Imperial officers looking at themselves four separate times in the mirror with a certain air of satisfaction. Maybe think of the connection between fascism and narcissism. In season one, Cyril made modifications to his corpo outfit in an attempt to be more imperial.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And I recall Andor calling the empire, quote, fat and satisfied, and that makes them easier to infiltrate. Tyrants navel-gazing because they think they deserve to dominate is often the perfect time to strike them down. One of the propagandists at the meeting calls the Gorms arrogant, and that is pure projection. It's also pure propaganda.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
But anyway, yeah, this... Like, once I got this email from Philip, I, like, went back and looked at all the moments, and it is... You love to be on Reflection Watch. You love to be on Mirror Watch. So I say we get on it for the rest of the season. I think that's a really interesting observation.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
We got a number—we got a lot of emails about this interaction between this sexual assault, attempted sexual assault between Bix and Kroll, and—
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
flagging that there has been a larger conversation about this inside of the fandom in terms of does this feel quote unquote appropriate for Star Wars this question of like are kids watching this is this okay blah blah I am I hesitate to say I really like this I'm not gonna say like I liked it but but when I saw it coming yeah I had this moment of like, how is this going to play out?
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
You and I have spent years in the Game of Thrones trenches, and I have a lot of strong opinions about when and how sexual assault should be used, and specifically how it's depicted, from whose point of view, et cetera, et cetera. I really... thought this was... I guess I will say well done is what I will say. I like that Bix is not damseled.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Like, Cassian arriving gets to be heroic in helping what is happening here. But, like... Bix defends herself. Right.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Yeah. And so, like, which I was... You know, we got some emails about this. I was surprised that they said rape inside of a Star Wars property. But I'm not, like... I'm not unpleasantly surprised. I am surprised, but I think it is... For all the violence that we see inside of a Star Wars, for entire planets being obliterated, for this, that, and the other thing, I think that showing the...
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Real flesh-and-blood realities of, you know, fascistic abuses of power as their perpetrator on the bodies of the oppressed I think is important to show.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I think what's important, too, I mean, we will see how this all plays out because we only have this first three-episode arc at our fingertips here, but, like...
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Often, you know, Mo Ryan, who is a writer that I really admire, did a lot of incredible work in the TV journalism space interrogating basically sexual assault as a trend in prestige television and when and how it was used and how often it was used to motivate the male characters who know this person. Right.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
So if this becomes a moment for Cassian, that is not at all what I expect from Andor, but that would be very bothersome to me. This feels very much like Bix's moment. And a moment of horror for her, but a moment of strength for her after watching her... turn into a puddle of goo at the end of season one and suffer these nightmares for all the time after.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And then to be able to, like, fight back here, I thought was really important for that character. So, yeah.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And also the guy waiting for him outside, right? Yes, sitting there. Who, like, only goes to get help when he knows that it sounds like Kroll's indeed.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And that's such the right word. I think – I love the word mature here because, like, I – we got an email from a listener, Tanashi, who was asking, like, you know, would you – a lot of people like to say, oh, this is the one for – and or is the one for adults or whatever. Yeah. I would say it is a mature story, and Tanashi listed a couple other examples.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Avatar The Last Airbender, Blue-Eyed Samurai, certainly, like, quite a sort of violent, you know, upsetting show. The Dark Knight, Barbie, like, to varying degrees. But, like... Is there a world in which – and I feel like there – not to sound so ancient, but there was when I grew up of, like, we watched a bunch of really mature stuff growing up.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And it's, like, the idea of, like, for kids or not for kids – Like, the line of what an individual child can engage with is so fluid, as any parent could tell you. And so I just don't think it's, like... I don't think this scene... For me, I'm not a parent, but for me, not a mechanic and not a parent, but, like, for me...
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I don't think this scene disqualifies this as something that a kid could watch depending on the age of that kid and depending on how you've had these conversations about this. And it might even be a really good conversation starter and that sort of stuff. Rob and I talked about this a lot on the Press TV and we talked about the show Adolescence.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
There are conversations you can have if you're willing to have them with your kid around engaging in stuff like this. But I was certainly watching... Shows that had content – like, you know, this isn't – it's horrifying and emotionally horrifying, but it's not sexually graphic in any kind of way. And I don't know. I think this is a really important story. I think this is a really good story.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And I would not say – kids, depending on your, what age level you're talking about, cannot watch Andor. I don't think that's the case. And as much as I, and I love Chris and Andy with all of my heart, obviously, but like, you know, sometimes Andy will talk about Andor as like, this is the one for us.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I think he just means like him and Chris, honestly, you know, and it's just sort of like, but I don't think you need to say this is the one for grownups. Like, I don't think that's necessarily the right conversation to have inside of a fandom space, you know?
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Oh, there's also... I think there's a very clear moment when he gets knocked to the ground and they look at each other and they kind of smile. That's what I thought. Kind of smile at each other like, yeah, thank you for saving me. Yeah, I just saved you. Seemed to be like the exchange there. Okay, so we're aligned.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
No, that's not my read at all. So Brasso dies, and I just want you to know that I read one of the worst things I've ever read on StarWars.com, and it was this. There will be no stone for Brassa. God, Joanna. Fuck. Oh, my God.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Forgoing the customary funerary honors befitting such a stand-up Phyrexian citizen, there will be no stone for Brassa, but his sacrifice will help build the foundation of the rebellion.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I loved it. I'm absolutely obsessed to be back. Um... Thrilled, thrilled, honored, delighted. Loved my Ender Season 1 rewatch. Loved my Rogue One rewatch. Just really, really, really excited to be here. You did a lengthy notes doc for this episode. I did my own lengthy notes doc for this episode. There's so much to talk about. I don't want to spend too much time here.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And especially, like, when I read No Stone for Brasso, I actually started crying because I was just, like, thinking about Brasso being the one carrying Marva's brick. Like, how involved he was in the ceremony of Marva's passing.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
A lot of people are rightly upset about Brasso's death. I love death in Andor because it's real. I think we're going to be saying goodbye to a lot of people. I think so, too. And I think something I bumped against in shows like Obi-Wan and Ahsoka are things like Sabine's non-death or Reva's non-death, when someone can take a lightsaber to the gut and just be totally fine. I'm just sort of like...
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Everyone but Qui-Gon. Death should be real and death should matter. And Brasa's loss is important. And will be another... It will be felt. Yeah. Like, Marva's... What did Will's dad's death radicalize? What did Marva's death radicalize? What will Brasa's death radicalize as we go forward? What did Namek's death radicalize? Like, all of these losses are so important. Yes. As we go forward.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I love that. I was thinking about this as we were talking about the Bix thing. I was like, wow, it'll be fun to get to the lighter storylines. And I'm like, oh. Just the betrayal. The evil. No, but I was like- I was like, the shitty rich people and Shangri-La and, oh, the fascist couple and we can't wait to talk about their dinner with mom. Like, anyway, Star Wars, you're special. Genuinely can't.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Yeah, genuinely can't wait to talk about dinner with mom. Star Wars, you're so special. Okay, let's go to... So, Shangri-La, I should just say, and I'm sure I said this in season one, But I can't ever hear the word, and we hear it a lot in the storyline, without hearing it to the tune of Shambhala. Yeah. A very important track from Lost or whatever.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Anyway, I just need you to know for the last few days, it's just been like, how does the light shine on the halls of Shandrila?
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Shandy. Shandy Merle. Shandy Merle. Let's do it.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
A Shandy wedding without betraying your childhood friend is a dull affair and everyone knows that.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I will say, here are a couple big picture themes that I just want to hit at the top here, and then we'll circle back to them where we may. Circles being one of them, obviously. But I think that the...
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
These children are getting married. She had some moments of agitation inside of these episodes, but does it help that, like, Lena seemed really into it at the end of last season? I mean, even here, she's like. Yeah. I wish she were drunk. Don't ask me to. Honestly, her fate, her, Genevieve O'Reilly's face when she says that. Okay. Crushing.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Now is the time when I talk about one of my very favorite things that Andor does. Okay. And it is a person taking a really long time to walk somewhere. Yes. I love this.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Yeah, this is, like, a very showy version because this is filmed as, like, a one-er, sort of as she walks down the stairs. I was thinking a lot, because we're, like, on the landing dock here or whatever, I was thinking a lot of Dune prophecy, how, like, with love and respect, how, like...
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
cheap and small by comparison that like one outdoor like long table they had at the palace at the imperial palace was this like one filmed in the volume set that they had versus this clearly practical set of many levels so like In season one, and this is, like, on rewatch, so fun to remember, we follow Clea or Cyril as he walks down, down, down through Coruscant.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Lonnie down, down, down through Coruscant. Vel and Cassie, as they hike, hike, hike to get to the encampment on Aldani. Like, it always takes a while to get somewhere. And while we're going...
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
The thesis, the objective for Andor season two, covering these last four years up until everything that happens in Rogue One and then A New Hope, is what is the thing that tips us out of complacency into rebellion? What is that thing? And we circled it in season one, but it has to happen here in this season. Yeah. We see a lot of the shallow comfort of conformity.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Mon's walk is much more eventful than a lot of these other walks, but we're just sort of like showing you the world we're in and making sure you know that we're in a real world and we're not just like bopping from one small, tiny set to another. But we have built out this entire world. We've built out this multi-tier, you know, shandy set for you. Yeah.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
to show you how rich the fabric of and how real and inhabited and fully realized this world feels. Like, and everyone she greets, whether it's parents, relatives, or a different senator, or Belle herself, or whatever it is, is just, like, these feel like real, fully realized people and not just extras in the background as we walk through. Totally. Yeah.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
across the show that's awesome and it's fun to think when it takes the time about also then who's waiting for you right like what does the time spent mean for you but also the people you're trying to reach that's great that's i love that i mean i love in this when we get to watch i mean mon's face changing back and forth depending on like who she's facing or who's behind her when she spots luthan but we don't see that that's what made her face do that thing until later like who's
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
there. Yeah. She spots a bell. She's like, look who the fuck is here, man. We know who it probably is, but still, it's very cool. I know.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Can I shout out someone that we meet on the steps here? Is it Erskine? It's Erskine Simaj. Great stuff. Yeah. Who fans of like Rebels already know who he is. I just want to shout out two things. Number one, his Bucky Barnes hair. Like it's really good. So this is her like aide who she who's talking to her about the governor.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Did you know, and you probably did, that Erskine Samaj is just the name James Erskine sort of backwards and jumbled up a little bit. This is a guy who worked at Lucasfilm, and so they named this character after him. So I was thinking, I really think Ruben Irolam would be a great Star Wars name. Irolam. Sure. Right. It's your name.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Conformity is really comfortable. The wedding is very comfortable. And these are people who have just conformed versus like the hardship of nonconformity versus Or the nourishing depth of a truer belonging to a place. That the Empire welcomes you into their sort of, like, flattened world. But, like, as we mentioned, we talked about this a lot in Season 1.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Maybe that should be the name of the character. You know when she's... I mean, I know you know. The moment when Mon is, like, losing it on the dance floor. I'll never forget it. It's a very humanoid wedding, which I think is really interesting. And Andra got dinged for this in season one. But I actually don't mind it at the Shandy wedding because this seems very much like it's for Shandy's only.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
You know what I mean? But versus like Saw's ragtag of group of rebels and stuff like that. But there's a guy on the dance floor in Mons Dancing who's got like a shaped head and sunglasses and like a silver coat. Yeah. That's Ruben Arolam. That's as far as I'm concerned. I love that. Great. Yeah, I love that.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I hate to tell you. So you're finding Perrin to do what? Are you finding Perrin to party down? I just find him genuinely fascinating. This is a great Perrin arc. It's very, very good.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I loved it. I love that. To me, for some reason, I loved even more when he says, oh dear, you found me. Dude, great stuff. I am confident, again, I did not go back and listen to our season one Andor coverage, but I am confident that when we covered Andor season one, I talked about the Scarlet Pimpernel and what an important story that is to me.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
If people don't know, the Scarlet Pimpernel, written by the Baroness Orsi about the French Revolution, inspired Zorro, which inspired Batman. But anytime you see a...
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
a rich person playing the sort of indolent like fop who is secretly doing revolutionary work now in the Scarlet Pimpernel he's just saving royals from the guillotine but you know you gotta think about that and the way that in the Scarlet Pimpernel Percy Blakeney, who is the titular scout of Pimpernel, he goes like, oh, sink me. Oh, dear me.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Like, that's what he's always saying in his, like, foppish disguise. So he's like, oh, dear, you found me. I was just like, Luthen, you're the best. I love you.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Something that Andor is so good at is showing us the distinct cultures and customs of various planets that the Empire is looking to quash and homogenize. We talked about this a lot with, like, Aldani and Ferex in Season 1. And here we get the Shandrila customs. But even, like, Mina Rao or the...
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
It is perfect. No, but we did get an email about Leda's new mother-in-law, Dava's wife. Yes. And the mob wife energy coming off of her. There's some hype there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Beautiful mouthing. You're way with words. Gorgeous. To your point about like, okay, Luther and Claire here, something I love, something, so something- I loved every second of it to be honest. Yeah, no, no, no. I agree with you. Something that Tony Gilroy said on The Watch was like, you guys all like to throw me parades for my speeches. He's like, speeches I could do.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
He's like, it's getting the various people into the room so they're interacting with each other. That is the hard work for me. That was fascinating. I thought that was really interesting. And so like... So I was thinking about that when I was thinking about season one. Vel is used this way a couple of times where you're just sort of like, who's Mamatha's cousin? Oh, it's Vel.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Or like, who's here on Farrakh watching Marvel? It's Vel. You know, like she's moving around through these various storylines. And I always found it really, or like when Cyril's story collides with Dedra's story. Like, you know, there's just like these moments of collision, of bumping up against each other that don't,
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
glimpse of gorman that we get you know like uh this or even like the the rochambeau the maya pay brigade like there's there's specificity to all of these places in a way that like star wars sometimes is just sort of like it's a whole planet that's a desert and you're like okay yeah But, you know, okay. Who is hungry and who is gorging was like a big theme inside of these three episodes.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
feel false and convenient that feel like we're watching a big sprawling story and there are plenty of characters who will never interact but like it makes sense that these key actors are sort of bumping up against each other so yeah and I can imagine that Luthan like wanted to be at this wedding
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And so like laid all the track in order to insinuate, you know, I mean, he says as such, like he sourced this to dangle in front of Davo so he could be here at this wedding and be in the mix. Totally.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Actually, I thought that was, like, great. To get you inside these homes. Yeah, exactly. And, like, I think that, like, I'm so sorry I don't have the email in front of me, but we did get a listener saying, do you think it's ill-advised? And I do. That Luthan used the same name twice. for his revolutionary activities as he does for his cover. I've wondered about this.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Like, I know there's, like, the Axis code name, and there's, like, plenty of people who don't know Luthan's name inside of the work that they do for him, but there are plenty who do. And I was just like, I would just simply use a different name. What should it be? Oh, um... Ruben Irola?
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Well, and I can't wait to talk about this a little bit more when we get to the speech, but, like, Perrin the Academy Firebrand is how, you know, and Mon are talking about how Perrin used to be when they were younger. And so I'm not... The ghost of his former promise. It's, like, such an indictment. Exactly. Well, and he, like, gives this amazing speech about... Incredible.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
With this like junk, this junky message to it, but an incredible speech. And it's like, what kind of revolutionary could Perrin have been? That's what that speech really.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Oh, I love that. But like, I think that he's, he, I don't, I hate this. I hate, but like, I feel like Perrin's like, there's something about being married to Mon or being put in this world that has turned me into this. And, like, it sounds like I'm blaming Mon for it, and I don't want to. I don't feel that way. I think Perrin is responsible for his own.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
But, like, there's something about the circumstance of being, like, the...
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
the plus one to this extremely powerful woman that has has parent has not risen to the challenge to be her equal yes he has become this like husk of his former self and like you know drinking or gambling or carousing with shitty other people and and it's just like but i think he's he in his view it was being married to a strong woman that did that to him i don't tend to agree but like Right.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And then the other thing I want to mark, and we already know with heavy heart that Brasso has left us, but... Who is going to make it and who isn't? And the tension of what it means that Bix and B2, not to mention Luthen and Perrin and Dedra and Cyril, are not in Rogue One, right?
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
But like that he's saying this is going to be your son's fate. I wish him luck. He's going to turn out a piece of shit like me, I guess.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Real scenes from Married stuff with them always. I genuinely bet if we watched, like, the courtship of Perrin – I mean, they were children, but, like, the courtship of Perrin and Ma – I bet it would have been like, these guys love each other. Like, I don't think you get that disappointed in – If you didn't like believe in something in the first place or love someone in the first place.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And so I believe that there was like an original young couple that actually saw a few together and then it's like, yeah, draw. And then here we are.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
The tea is amazing. I was so fascinated when Tony Gilroy said on the watch that Ari Kleinman, the director, that that was like all of that choreography and that breakfast. And I'm sorry, I'm just going to talk about it now. Let's do it. I love that breakfast setup because though she still looks more beautiful than I will ever look on the best day of my entire life.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Genevieve O'Reilly as Mon is like slightly undone from who... So this is like breakfast Mon. Like no one else gets to see her like this. And then, yeah. And then just sort of like the negotiating back and forth around the table and the passing back and forth the tea. This is just like... This is a... We know a familiarity. Yeah.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And so when we talk about prequels, which we have recently with stuff like Yellow Jackets or Dune Prophecy, we talk about the tension of knowing where something is landing, right? You know, knowing that a certain character is not making it out of the wilderness in Yellowjackets or knowing where everything's going on Dune Prophecy. How do you still make that interesting?
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
What would Perrin say? Perrin would say, joy has no wind in its back. Joy will not announce its arrival. You need to listen for it and be mindful of how fleeting and delicate it can be. Well, you know, I learned a lot. Fuck them while you got them. You know what I mean?
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Keep your shit together. I mean, I think that's the reason she hasn't had sex with him is, like, everything is too fraught and it's too dangerous to do something like that. Though I support you supporting her, pursuing her joy. But, yeah. Yeah. So take home. I thought it was really interesting to listen to Tony Gilroy.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Essentially, like what it seems like is that this was not always the plan for take home that he would be this like crash out in season two. Interesting that the actors were ensured that it would work. You know, Ben Miles, I'm sure, was just sort of like, really? Wasn't I kind of cool? Yeah.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And so he said he had to, like, go back through and, like, read every scene of season one and be like, once you rewatch this knowing what happens, can you see this in there? And he's like, I think you can. And I'm like, I'm with it. I'm for it. And also, like, some people can be cool if everything's going their way. And then for Take Homa, like...
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
When you have to clear a bunch of players off the board, are we killing everyone like Brasso? Or are we like retiring them to a farm like B2? Or like, what are we going to do with all of these extraneous characters we have on the board, especially... And this is my last point, and then I'm done. Especially for someone like Cassian Andor, who walks into Rogue One. Right.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And when his investment portfolio, the bottom drops out of his investment portfolio, and his wife leaves him, and Maslow returning his calls. And maybe, you know, I have seen some chat around this about, like, yes, he is stressed out about his bottom line. And yes, his wife has left him, and that has stressed him out. But I saw some interpretation that, like, his...
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
freak out here has to do also with him not getting to bed Mon maybe the way that he thought he would when they started this arrangement. Then maybe he's like, hey, you're not making time for my phone calls. Me? Tay Coleman? Yeah. Have you not seen my beautiful snowy head of hair? Like, what the fuck is going on?
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Not just that. He said he's Fredo-ing out, and I want to make that a new phrase for you.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
He's like, but when it impacts my bottom line, when it makes me even the slightest bit uncomfy.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I believe in infrastructure, but, like, do the tax increases need to come for me? Me? Oh, God.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
You know, Melchie's there, but, like, you know, with very few strings attached to, you know, K2 is there, but, like, two people around him. So he's got this Ferex-found family, I mean, around, but, like, what's going to snip all these threads for him going forward is, I think, a question that Andor has on its mind. Mallory Rubin. Yeah. But I loved it, bottom line.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Yeah, I was thinking of this as like the great unmooring. This like, it is for Mon to be Yeah. Who she becomes to the rebellion. We, and by we I mean the story, has to snip her ties. So her role as mother, her role as wife, her role as son. We know if we are familiar with Rebels and other things that have come before it. how she snips her ties as a Senator, like how that happens exactly.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
But like, how does she, how does she not be with her family anymore? At what point did she stop using hair products? At what point has she abandoned her beautiful tailored outfits for white caftans? Like when does it, when is all of this happening?
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
It's the bangs for me. It's the hair for me. She loses her sense of style inside of the rebellion. I mean, Leia still keeps it, you know, fashionable. Maybe it's just the practicality of life on the road.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Yabba doesn't seem like it has, like, a good... Good salon. But, yeah, like, this is the making of Mon or the unmaking of who she used to be. And so, like, when Leda says, I wish you were, like, you know, that's getting way ahead of ourselves. But, like, she offers one last kiss.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
hand out to her daughter right and when her daughter says i wish you were drunk like there's just this shuddering oh and it's just a complete sever and then she's like no you go behind me right and it's just sort of like i'm not i'm not your mom anymore pretty much that's kind of how that felt to me like that we're just snip snip snipping away at the things that keep mon inside of her life and moving her towards this new person she's gonna have to be
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Do you think Nemos is the intergalactic version of Taylor Swift's Shake It Off? Is that what we're listening to? I think it now. I think it now that you said it. Okay, great.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Great to have it back. Also, that DJ Droid was amazing. All of that was fantastic.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
The Cinta, yeah, your roommate, your BFF, Cinta. Dude, how's your friend? This is such a good setup for, like... Can I just, I mean, sorry, this is getting well ahead of ourselves, but the moment that it's Cinta as the driver, I was just like, that's one of the most, that's just one of the most exquisite that told it, as soon as it's Cinta, you're like, well, you already knew. Oh, yeah.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
It's a wrap for Ted. How nice for you. Like, I'll take care of this, says Luthan. But as soon as Cinta's your driver, it's like, oh, fuck. So I love that we planted the Cinta seed here for people who didn't do an Obsessive Andor season one. Same. Re-watching.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I think that's beautiful, and I think it's true. I don't know that that's... Is that where Mon's heading, with where, once again, she... Has made her hair a sunless space.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Luthan has given this up, right? Calm, kindness, kinship, love is like, he's like off the table, off the table. the table right but mon is still in a place where she's like why not both can't we live our lives and be revolutionaries and i just don't know that that's like where it's all gonna wind up for her but we'll see sad all right let's talk about parents speech
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Well, yeah. First, I want to say praise to the families and the clans of Shendrala. Praise to those who traveled to share in our most treasured tradition. As the father of the intended maiden, it's my Shendralan duty. Just, like, again and again and again, we are hammering tradition.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
uh you know uh duty like customs like blah blah like all of that sort of stuff it is displeasing to vel and mom but it is just so important to get this interesting specificity and and hearing the costume designers the production designers talk about creating this opulent world where it's like hundreds of costumes that like um
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Leda's dress took half a year to individually hand bead that they like wanted to do this sort of... Just to get a snag. Yeah. Oh, God. Just to get this like Japan meets Scandinavian sort of like... I don't know. I just thought it was like really incredible. But something that I saw, I'm going to give credit to the Redditors, the subredditors on the Andor subreddit for this.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
So Parent says, Joy has no wind in its back. Joy will not announce its arrival. You need to listen for it and be mindful of how fleeting and delicate it can be. Nemec famously says, the imperial need for control is so desperate because it is so unnatural. Tyranny requires constant effort. So this idea of like, Perrin's like, get after it. Joy requires constant vigilance.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And Nemec's like, tyranny requires constant effort. I thought those mirroring, the mirroring of that language is really interesting to me. And again, I just think Perrin is so persuasive here. There's a lot of people who watch this and we're like, Perrin, making great points. And it's like,
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
dig a little bit deeper what he's telling you to pursue which is just sort of like hedonism right like ensconce yourself in the cozy delights of this world and don't worry about the empire tell yourself it's all okay like why even talk about it don't worry about it you gotta drink deep from the well of life and so um yeah i just think i just think this is masterful what did you make of the reaction shots that we got in this scene
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Yeah, and this is like the ghost of who he used to be. Yeah. Like I used to hear him do this, this thing that he's really good at for like political firebrand sort of content. Yeah, definitely.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
That's hard. She's like, I prefer to murmur it passive aggressively, but if you want to make a speech about it, that's fine.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And you know that. Again, I want, I just, I do feel like there's slight nuance to this where she was like, of course, reluctant to do it. But then like, but then all Davo said was like, I just want them to meet. Yeah. And she was like, okay. And I really feel like it was Leta, again, a child who doesn't know any better, but Leta who was like... She's all in. This is great.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
So I feel like it's not like Mon was like, let me shove you into this. She obviously opened the door to something quite dangerous. Leta walked through it. And now Mon's like, come back to the other side of the door. And Leta's like, I actually don't want to. So she's like, she's... culpable, obviously. But I don't think it's... I don't know. I just wanted to, like, slightly shade that.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And she's like, it will be brave. I thought it was so beautiful. She's like, it will be a very brave thing for you to have done if you do this. Like, come with me. Like, it'll be fine. We'll go. And then just the... Hard rejection. And, like, again, like, I don't, I love Mon, and I don't want to, like. Me too.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
But, I mean, I don't know that she's probably been the best mom ever, Mom Mothma, because, like.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
But I have a knife. You don't want this knife? But walk me over the branch. Yeah, we're jumping the broom.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Uh, everyone's got incredible headdresses, and I think that's wonderful. They really do. Wonderful stuff from everyone. The way that Mon, like, grudgingly puts on the, like, this, that, and then, like, snaps her, like, hooded thing over. It was so good.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Really, really good. Okay, so they go out. We hop over the branches laid by Davo and his mob wife. And then we're invited into the circle. And as we've mentioned, Invitation to Circles has been happening throughout these three episodes. Perrin hands his new son-in-law a knife. Okay. Yep. And the words are, it will not return this knife. Paris says, do with it as you wish.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And this is an observation from our listener, Meg, which I thought was really interesting. She says, the ceremonial words spoken are pretty chilling, are pretty chilling when one realizes they absolutely represent a distant past where the choice lies with the bridegroom to either take the maiden as his wife or kill her. And that choice theoretically remains his throughout the marriage.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Nothing like bringing a dagger to a marriage bed to make one rest easy. Yeah. And Meg wrote this actually, I should say, in the larger context of the way in which Bix's assault is the most explicit, but everywhere in the world they hurt women, they hurt girls, like everywhere. what do you think the girls chained up in Jabba's palace were up to?
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
You know, like, all of the things that we have seen that have been vile issues of women, and this is one of them, and Leia's like, let's do it. And then he slices the braid, and it's just freshly unbraided and forever united. Mal, are you into that? It's a no for me.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Great question. Do you think she opened the hatch, put on her seatbelt, and just turned the car upside down? No.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I guess it doesn't sound as fun to me. But maybe she turned the car upside down and dropped him out of it. I actually thought that all the time with those particular vehicles. You're the best.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Yeah. I poured one out for you. Thanks. And for him who's about to die. I'll miss him. For those who are about to die, we salute you. Take home.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
This is so good. Okay, so he says, people fail, that's our curse, right? Loved. And I love that you're comparing it in our notes here to rebellions are built on hope, but, like, People showing up every single time that a single person shows up. That's the only way rebellions happen.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Not just rebellions are built on hope, but rebellion is built on every single little person showing up and doing the right thing. So the fact that Luthan's like, people fail, that's our curse. To me, that means Luthan's not going the distance on this rebellion.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Well, I actually think that he believes... I mean, we know that he's damned, like all this sort of stuff like that. But I think he believes, at least in his era of this rebellion, that everyone is there just merely to be a puppet on his string. And they're not going to make the good right choice. He's going to manipulate, leverage, blackmail.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Lonnie's not making any choices inside of the ISB out of the goodness of his heart. He's making choices because Luthen has... Backed him into a corner. He's like, sorry, I got you where I want you and I'm going to keep you there. Right. Like, so I feel like he's like, I can't rely on anyone to make the right and courageous choice. I need to blackmail. I need to manipulate.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I need to route leverage all this sort of stuff like that. Yeah. But that is not going to get us to the finish line. We're going to need. Exactly. Yeah. Gin or so to like find her, you know, courage, et cetera, et cetera. So I don't think that he. doesn't believe in the rebellion.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
One of the best moments of the episode, I thought. Of the three episodes. Be fucking for real, Mon, when she says, I'm not sure what you're saying. Yeah. Okay. How nice for you. Of course she knows.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
You know who's ready? Cinta. Oh, yeah. Cinta's ready. Clea's ready. You're not ready. Oh, yeah.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
The costume designer said that they designed, you know, this beautiful coppery gown that she's wearing here and all the like the pleated gauzy fabric and all this sort of stuff. They designed it specifically for this dance scene so that when you could always find Mon on that in that floor from the way that the fabric is sort of like flapping around. Me too. Yeah.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
This is going to be one of the most memorable moments in all of Star Wars for me. Mon, like, dancing her pain away, like, as she knows she has what she's done. Like, I just think that's, it's so much more chilling than, like, Michael, the godfather's a mess piece. This is better than the godfather. But like Michael Corleone like sitting there stoically thinking about what he did to Freda.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
This is so much more disturbing. She's just like so damaged by this. And I'm excited to see where it goes.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I think this is the last. I think this. Nope, it's not because we have to do Dead or at Home. This is the second to last note I have from the costumer, which is he was like, In Rogue One, Kredic wears this outdoor-ready cape. He was like, we were unwilling to give up on the cape, so we just had to make an indoor version of the outdoor cape. It was the right call.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
You flagged one of my favorite lines here, which is, the experts have a fancier word, don't they always? Which is, like, funny, but it's like... But then when we get to the sort of Ministry of Enlightenment, you know, this is anti-intellectualism. The experts have a fancier word, don't they always?
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Like, aren't they always putting on airs and coming up with a fancier word for just play it all spiders? You know, that's fascinating.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Yeah, but in this case, they don't have the luxury of, like, pocket universes or, like, you know what I mean? Right, exactly.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Yeah. It's just a power industry. And we keep fighting with the Senate. We're just trying to create stable, clean energy for the galaxy. And the Senate keeps fucking fighting us in the funding committees. What the hell? Oh my God. This is just wild. This is so good. It's funny thinking about all the ways in which
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
trade tariffs taxation or whatever inside of the fantasy menace menace menace go like oh brother this is not what i want from star wars and i'm like tell me more about the senate initiatives and your and your power plan yeah exactly yeah what was aragorn's tax policy oh it was just about to say what was aragorn's tax policy i literally was
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Okay, I love that you went Kendall Roy succession. I went Don Draper, Pete Campbell, Mad Men. And there's something about their gray shiny suits and their skinny black ties that like read so Mad Men to me. But yeah, they're selling you on something, and I just think it's so creepy. Obviously, propaganda is creepy. It's extremely fucking Nazi-coded, as is all of this.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Tony Gilroy has talked about in many interviews that this is based on an actual event, the Vonsi Conference. And there's a number of resources that you can, if you want to know more about this, but... CR cited the one that I'm most familiar with, which is this film called Conspiracy, directed by Frank Pearson. It's got a touch of the Tucci, some Irish guy himself, Tucci in it, Kenneth Branagh.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And that basically over a catered lunch, the Nazis were like, this is how we will enact the final solution, right? Right. Like this, like the the phrase that Andy uses, perfect banality of evil. Right. This is just like when they break for like bevies and snacks inside of this absolutely, absolutely horrific moment is just like extraordinary.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
It's such a... It's the Luthen plan. Well, it's the Luthen... Yes, it's the Luthen plan, but it's also like... This is a lesson she learned from Ferex, right? She's like, we squoze and there was this... But if we're in control of that and we can spin that and we can take advantage of that.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And something I think that's so interesting to think about Tony Gilroy laying all of this out, this run from the beginning of Andor to Rogue One, is that what happens with Ormen is... core Mon Mothma lore. Yeah. And he was like, this was a bargain. We knew that we were going to have to do this storyline for Mon Mothma.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Like, Tony Gilroy as a creator who's like, how much canon do I have to adhere to and how much do I not? Something like that. But he's like, this was something, if we get to play with the character Mon Mothma, we're going to have to do this storyline. And we wanted to make sure we did it really, really well and really, really right. So to think about like, Ferex is this almost like test case.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Well, she and Cyril are bonded by many things we'll talk about in a second, but like one of them is their like- Yeah, they love a fondue. Yeah, chalky pink fondue. That one can be really gross. Vile. Vile. Wretched. The cakes look good, though. What I love, though, is that that decision came from, I guess, the design of the table.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I know. I'm so excited. I'm so excited about the like additional reading CR is doing for this and like whether or not we have time to do it. I hope so. But yeah, it's exciting. Very exciting. Should we get to the deep dive? Let's do it.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
They designed her table after this, like, 1970s design that was, like, used specifically for fondue with, like, the lazy Susan aspect in the center. And so Tony's like, let's just have them eat fondue. And then they made this, like, disgusting pink jelly bug fondue. Disgusting. Anyway. Very gross. But fondue. Cheese fondue. I love fondue. Delicious.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
But I love that it's so 70s and it's so original Star Wars to take fondue. You know what I mean? Similar to like the cereal containers inside of Edie's kitchen, you know? Yeah, exactly. Okay, so she and Cyril are bonded by their white whale pursuit of Axis, right? Cassian, Axis. And she doesn't want to give up her desk. Yeah. She's like, this is my thing that I'm working on.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And I love when Partagas says, or Party, as you have named him in our notes. Thank you. Catch them first, then make them famous.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
I know, and I'm like, I feel guilty, but it's so good. Deirdre at home. Yeah. Opera. Fit watch. Fit lord. At Home Dedra, this is my last costume designer note. They talked long, long, long about what she looked like at home. And he says, she gets home, she's probably super relieved to take off the armor of the ISB highly tailored uniform.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
But in a way, she just sort of changes into another version of that. The colors are the same. She slips into clothes that are more comfortable, but also in a structured and formal way. She keeps that rigidity even in her private life. She believes so much in her morality and ethics that I think she can't ever let that slip.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Her mentality is very black and white, and she only wears ivory and black this whole season. So...
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Pink. Rock in the heels. Looks great. Cyril's like, I mean, they're repulsive people. They're horrible people. And also when he's like, I thought maybe we wouldn't have to do dinner. We could cancel it.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
The other thing I love about her apartment, we talked about this a lot in season one, but like the levels of Coruscant and the way that she's like much higher than Edie, but not as high as Mon is where Deirdre sits. Thank you. It's home. Oh my God. And then, so then Edie just like every- This is my favorite thing that's ever happened. Hacks passive aggression into every single word she says.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And again, please watch the video of the interview of Tony Gilroy and watch him talk about how Edie is his favorite character to write. And how easy it is for him to write her and how much he loves writing her. It makes sense.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And then Deirdre's saying we didn't know what we were missing. It's so funny because, like, all this stuff is so good. And then, like, Cyril running into his room and collapsing, like, a pile of laundry on his bed and stuff like that.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Incredible. But Dedra, like, Dedra not being cowed and Dedra just taking control of the situation. Indeed. Impressive. Impressive, Dedra. Yes. Our listener Reagan did write in to point out that Dedra says, this is another bad BBY section. He says, the opening of the season tells us we're in BBY 4, as Maui well knows.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
That's four years before the Battle of Yavin, or about 15 years following Palpatine's establishment of the Empire of the Republic. Dedra, in an absolutely fantastic scene, standing up to Edie, says that her criminal parents died when she was three and that she was raised in an imperial kinder block. Imperial. Right. For that to be true, she would have to be three years old 15 years ago.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
That's assuming these Kinder Blocks were immediately established at the formation of the Empire, or they were public Kinder Blocks that very quickly changed curriculums. And sure, Denise Goh looks flawless, but something about that timeline does not add up. Good flag. Per StarWars.com recap, they said, Dedra grew up in what would later be named an Imperial Kinder Block.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
And your favorite guy is the Maya paper grade. You love them.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
Feels like a little covering from good old StarWars.com to me. But, you know. Great stuff. At least whoever wrote that had their BBY straight. And they were like, uh.
House of R
'Andor' Season 2, Episodes 1-3 Deep Dive
But in terms of that idea of belonging, like finding a place of belonging in the way in which the Empire welcomes you in, gives you a uniform, says you don't have to think about it. You're in the inner circle now, Dedra. Like someone who grew up...
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Right. And then divorce, I guess. Yeah, I guess trial separation.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
The biggest TV storyline of 2025, I think, is that the good IP is actually delivering. Because I know you didn't mention Andor, and I'm not going to try to make you talk about Star Wars on this podcast, but Andor is firing on all cylinders, the Star Wars show.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
And The Last of Us is incredible. And so I think... And Severance delivered on its second season. So I think... The ways in which we're used to watching this stuff drop off in second seasons after like a big first season hasn't really been the case this year so far. And that's been really exciting to know.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
It's Apple and HBO and FX are really like holding it down on the week to week front in that way and Paramount as well. But yeah, in the binge model, I say this all the time.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
But yeah, if White Lotus had been a binge drop or if your friends and neighbors, the show that you texted me the other day was making you giddy was a binge drop, then we wouldn't get to talk about it for as long as we do and dig into it as deeply as we do. The bear is still a binge drop. That's always confusing to me. I don't know why that's not a week to week.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
And Andor, once again, to come back to this, but Andor is dropping on three episode chunks every week. So it's going to be over in two weeks. And that's wild to me for a 12 episode season. So it's mixed bag.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
But I do think that people are finding more and more that if you want your show to really take root in the conversation with something like White Lotus, when we're all watching together, when we're speculating together... That's the way you really permeate pop culture in the larger conversation without even the help of IP. White Lotus being sort of like an original concept from Mike White.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Okay, tell me about it. Tell me why this is a third. This is deeper than Landman for you? What is it?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
A good hang show. I love to know that you're somewhat second screening it. I think what's I think what's so telling about your friends and neighbors is like we are covering it on the prestige TV feed, but we're probably only going to drop like 30 minute episodes about it because there isn't like we're not going to go deep into the metaphors of your friends and neighbors. It doesn't. Right.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
have that meat on the bone but it is fun to talk about there are great performances in there it's fun to look at and it's fun to think about it's a it's a real like throwback show we've been comparing it to stuff like weeds um you know or breaking bad and stuff like that and so it's this it feels like a really vintage kind of show dropping surprisingly in 2025 apple is doing all kinds of
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
surprising things. The studio is really, really hitting for me as well.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah, exactly. It was definitely a Showtime show.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
The Californication sort of era. Yeah. Yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
A huge roster of side characters. I did have a question for you about your friends and neighbors I was curious about. When we were talking about it as this kind of throwback show, I was remembering that when shows like Homeland or The Good Wife came out, there was all this conversation about the teen characters and how annoying people found the teen characters.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
What do you think about the kids on this show, on your friends and neighbors?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
What do you think they should be like?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
I mean, I really miss when, uh, as you and I both enjoy, I miss when teens were played by 30 year olds, like on 90210 or the OC. Now they're casting actual teenagers and it, it, it highlights even more how they're getting it wrong. Cause when they cast 30 year olds, we're all like, we know we're not watching actual teenagers. We're watching like an invented fantasy version of a teenager.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
But when you cast an actual teen, I'm like, this doesn't bear any resemblance to any teen I know in real life. Does any show get it right? Is anyone getting it right?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
You guys like sex lives of college girls.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
18, 19.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah, it's true. Well, I'm glad that I'm glad to know that you think that Lockie, a character who gave his own brother a handjob on the White Lotus, is the most accurate depiction of our youth.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah, that's true. My favorite thing that TV writers now and probably always have done is... Yeah, they did this with Dylan on 90210. They give the teen characters the pop culture interests of their generation. So if you watch Euphoria...
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
And all those kids go to a Halloween costume party and they're all like dressed as, you know, Baz Luhrmann's Romeo and Juliet or, you know, like just pop culture references that are not of their time, no matter how much teens are like obsessed with the 90s right now. It's just clear that the writers rumor like this is what we think is cool.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
And the way we code our coolest characters is to give them interest in pop culture from the past. And that's those are the cool characters on your show, like Dylan, et cetera. And I just think I think that's really funny. They're not even trying.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
I have a question for you. Um, as you know, I'm covering this with, with Rob Mahoney on the prestige, uh, NBA, um, you know, expert. What do you think of the, of the basketball player on this show?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah, I was thinking about Bad Monkey. Similar, like in that vein and that it's like, it's such a showcase for Vince Vaughn and then everything else that's happening around him. But like, if you love Vince Vaughn, you're going to love Bad Monkey. And if you love Jon Hamm, you're going to love your friends and neighbors.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
But that's what they do. I mean, yeah, the studio is riding a lot on, you know, do you like Seth Rogen? Here's the studio. But I think the studio has much, much more on its mind to say about the world it's existing in. You and Sean and I talked about the studio early in the season. How are you enjoying now that you've seen more?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Do you feel like, Oh, you don't even know the player. You don't know. You don't know what you're like.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
I love it. And there's been moments that I've been really surprised by. Like, I think the biggest moment that surprised me was, it's not an episode that I loved overall, but the fact that they got Olivia Munn, I'm sorry, Olivia Wilde. Olivia Munn's obviously on Your Friends and Neighbors. Olivia Wilde to sort of
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
parody herself after having been under such scrutiny for her work as a director i thought that was pretty interesting that they had that conversation with her and was like look it'll be great for everyone you'll show that you have a sense of humor about yourself and we'll just go ahead and do it i think i think that's always really fun when you can imagine the conversations that they had with the person who's playing themselves and say look everyone's gonna really love that you did this
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
that you let them know that you know what they're all talking about. And you showed an even more extreme version of it on screen.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah, it works. But the rest. And I think it's really interesting to think about, to your point about the rehearsal or the studio. I complain all the time. All of us who cover TV complain all the time that there's too much television. And there is. There are tons of shows that go unwatched, unnoticed by people. But the advantage of having so much television is that...
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
people will, studios will greenlight something that seems really niche or really odd or really experimental like the rehearsal and just say, go for it. We have the space. We have the time. We have, we think we have the money. Now they're realizing they don't have all the money in the world, but we think we have the money to try this. Let's try it.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
And when it hits, it's extraordinary that something like the rehearsal exists, you know, and you don't get that in the sort of TV landscape that you and I grew up in.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
it's funny to hear you describe that because I am rooting for him, but I hear what you're saying and that he's a doofus. He's a, he's like a fuck up, like all this sort of stuff like that. So, um, but that's the exact same thing. journey I'm on with your friends and neighbors, where I'm watching Jon Hamm's character, Coop, and I'm like, am I supposed to like this guy?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Am I supposed to be rooting for him? I don't mind the crime. I don't mind the B&E. I love a heist. But, like, he seems like he was a bad husband and a bad dad and, you know, like, kind of a callous dude. Am I supposed to be wanting him to succeed or wanting him to get busted? What am I looking for inside of this show? And that doesn't, like... It doesn't have to be someone...
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
A character doesn't have to be someone I'm rooting for. They just have to be someone I'm interested in. You know what I mean? And so like, if you're interested in what Seth Rogen is doing in the studio, for me, that can carry me beyond whether or not I want him to succeed or not. Do you know what I mean?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
These are the people who don't know how to write teenagers on your favorite. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Well, I think it's interesting to watch your friends and neighbors right off the heels of White Lotus, which is also a show that that tries to look at rich people. And hey, man, they also have problems. They're not happy, even though they're surrounded by all this luxury. But I think it's except for Greg Gary.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
He's figured it out.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
But I think both those shows are trying to have it both ways, where they're critiquing that class of person while also inviting you to luxuriate in this world and just have this sort of escapist fantasy that you, too, can have a watch that costs this much money or, you know, a swimming pool that looks like this or a catered birthday party that looks like that. You know, like that...
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Do you have a watch shelf, Bill?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
I don't know, man. Is there anything on your friends and neighbors that you saw that you're like, yeah, I should do that? That's something I should do.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
The more you talk about this bill, the more I want you to make this show. I want you to make the show. Yeah. I want you to make the show where you get the teenage characters, right. And show what the empty, the like the well-to-do empty nesters do once their kids are off to college.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
All right. Wait, can we talk about Last of Us? Sure. What do you want to say?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
I know you don't. Are you having FOMO given that The Last of Us and Andor are dominating at least a lot of the conversations we're having at The Ringer? Does it bum you out to not be watching these shows or how do you feel?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Really? Yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
To a certain degree, but I think when you listen to Chris and Andy talk about it on The Watch, they have been so disillusioned with Star Wars. They might have grown up on Star Wars, but they've been so disillusioned with what's going on in that world. And what Tony Gilroy is doing with Andor is just making a really complex...
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
show about politics and spycraft and all this other stuff and with like this barely visible veneer of Star Wars on top of it. So I actually think you could watch and enjoy. Interesting.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah, see what you think.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Do you pull up Pluto because it is comforting to see the old like grid of what's on? I love the grid.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah. I mean, can we spoil the big thing that has happened this season that everyone already knows about?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah. Right.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
So Pedro Pascal is not on the show anymore. Looking at it from the outside in, like, what is are you do you have any reactions to that?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah. Yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah, that happens in the... There was like a first edition of the video game and then a sequel to the video game. And in the sequel, they kill off that character right at the beginning of the game. So they killed him off. And we were all wondering...
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
if they would string it along just to keep their star, Pedro Pascal, on the show a little longer, but they killed him in the second episode of the season. But I was just curious if that kind of move is something that makes you want to watch the show more. If you're like, oh, they're doing something as bold as that, that's interesting. I kind of want to check that kind of storytelling out.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Or if you're like, because we've heard... Seems risky. Well, there's been this interesting... There's been a reaction of if Pedro Pascal is not on the show, I don't want to watch the show anymore. And I have to say, I got a little like bored with that because I've just heard it before. And those people don't ever wind up quitting the shows.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
I've just heard it for too often that people are like, I'm quitting. I'm never going to watch the show again. We heard on Game of Thrones every other season. People would say that reaction to something. And then. More and more people watched it every, every single year.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
I'm quitting. I'm never coming back. And then they always do. So I'm just like, it's not,
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
How do you do that? Given your allergy to genre storytelling, Bill, how did you wind up watching Game of Thrones in its very first season? What?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah. And I'm trying to decide which like between The Last of Us and Andor, which one I want to sort of steer me toward. Yeah. Bug you about for the next five years to see if I can get you to watch it.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Clearly.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
I've never seen it.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
That is wild to me. Yeah, it's terrible.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
No, it's just such a Bill show. I know. It's like a show you would really like.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Okay, that's okay. We all have those things.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
No, I mean The Shield.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah, but like The Leftovers isn't a Bill show, but like S.H.I.E.L.D. and Six Feet Under.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Well, yeah, Carrie's in it, but you can see her in other things, right?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Michelle Monaghan, yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
I have a lot of questions, Bill, and no answers for you. Just only questions.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
They lose their marbles. It's a lot. I don't know. We support Walton Goggins always on this podcast and all podcasts, but I just have some questions about what's happening.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
What?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Do you know where we're going?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Somewhere sunny. Okay.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
What's the next show this year that you're excited about? What's coming up that you... The Bear. The Bear.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
And how do you watch The Bear?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Well, would you do two over the course of a week, like Monday through Friday, every night we're watching two, or do you do two and space it out a couple of days and two more?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Right. But I'm saying like Monday night, two episodes, Tuesday night, the next two episodes, Wednesday night, sort of like that. Or the problem with binge shows like that, though, is you don't want to be too far behind what everyone's talking about in case you get spoiled or something like that.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
I told you why they started like the bear is a binge watch, right?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
No. Well, I was told that it was because John Landgraf thought it was like too bleak and that people wouldn't stick with it if it were week to week. So I understand why they dropped the first season as a binge. But once they saw what a hit it was, I will never understand why they keep dropping it as a binge. I think it's just because they think people expect it at this point.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
But I don't know why you wouldn't just reverse course and own the summer with the bear, which you could easily do.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah. Think of the content on the watch. Um, a great podcast on your network. Um, Chris and Andy interviewed Tony Gilroy about Andor and he was talking about the release schedule and he was saying, um, Dropping three episodes a week. He's like, I kind of like it. It's like a little movie every week. Right. You know, so people can watch it. He was like, I do worry about the podcasters.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
And he sounded actually genuine. He was like, it's a lot for the podcasters to try to cover. And I was like, thanks, Tony Gilroy, for thinking about us.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah. Yeah. I think like midsummer, July, something like that. Yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah, that sounds like a One Tree Hill move. Dawson's never did that. We had to suffer through all the years of college. Well, at the finale of Dawson's, they did a time hump.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
I genuinely think you two think the affair is one of the greatest things that's ever happened on television.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
I love that Mallory's not here and you're just sort of like filling in for her. I appreciate you bringing that energy.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
I appreciate that energy.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Well, we got another throne show coming up on Night of the Seven Kingdoms. We just don't know when it's coming. We thought it was coming after The Last of Us, but they haven't even announced a date yet. So I don't know when that's going to happen. But I'm really, really excited for that one to podcast about it with Mallory and Chris, I think is going to be really fun. So that one should be good.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
There's a there's a new show from the creator of Mare of Easttown. That's going to kill.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
That's going to be a really good one, I think. So, you know, there's a lot to think about in terms of what we want from television going forward because television is radically changing in terms of how they're making it and what exactly they're making. And so I think...
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
you know, the more that people can make it clear in terms of conversation or engaging what actually hits and what they're not actually watching. I mean, your friends and neighbors, you're saying you're watching like 80% of it. Is that what you said to me? Something like that?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah. Is it an 80?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
So that's a hang show for you. That's just sort of like a background watching show for you. But with White Lotus, you were, you were sat and you were taking notes and you were ready for it.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Oh, yeah. She's great.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
She's great. What do you think of the rumors that the guy who plays her husband, Brendan Spooner, that he might be Batman? What do you think of that rumor? Would you like it?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
He threw that one guy overboard. I think that would be really interesting.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah, but the pit is not a paradise background watchable.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah. Yeah. I think the pit is definitely... I think Andor, just for what I like, is the... the number one show of the year for me. Um, and, uh, it's just operating on a different level altogether, but the pit in terms of similar to your friends and neighbors, it feels like a show from a different era. Uh, we feel like we're just watching ER and elevated ER.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
The best part about The Pit, not just that it ran longer than your normal HBO show runs. So you're just like really with the characters week to week for a while. But it's coming back at the top of next year. Like we don't have to wait three years for another season. They're bringing it back at the same time next year. And so, you know, that's how we used to watch television.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
But yeah, The Pit is, I mean, absolutely killer. I can't wait for you to watch The Pit. I can't wait to hear your picks.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
So what I'm hearing, uh, though, is that you want to podcast about euphoria season three with me. That's what, that's what our plan is for.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
I believe. I just believe.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Is that my punishment for not having seen The Sopranos? You're going to make me watch The Idol five years later. What happened?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
That was a brush fire. That was terrible. That was... It couldn't have been worse. Yeah. Okay. Five years later, The Idol, what happened?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
All right.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
I know, there's a lot going on.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan
Good to see you.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
This episode of the Prestige TV podcast is brought to you by Coffee Mate. Coffee Mate has been searching the globe for flavors that pair perfectly with coffee. So when they heard that the new season of HBO's The White Lotus was set in Thailand, they were inspired to brew up two new flavors, Thai iced coffee and piña colada flavored creamers. They're available for a short time only.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Off Tanya's millions.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Yeah, that's a good point. You make a good point. I feel like you can either like charge it to the room or charge it to your card is sort of a thing. So like this. OK, good question. Let's let's keep the emails going. If you were in the hotel industry, if you went to Cornell, let us know what the deal is.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
There's a lot of reasons why people do it. This is something we brought up in last week's discussion of White Lotus. We were noting that Piper was listening to an audio book and reading at the same time. And Rob and I were asking, hey, is this something people do? And we got a resounding, yes, this is something people do. Some of it has to do with neurodivergence or ADHD and stuff like that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Here's the sort of big bucket that I want to put our character-by-character analysis in, and it is this question of identity. To go back to the immersive reading moment with Piper, what she was reading about this idea of identity as a prison, as a concept inside of... I think that's... If we're thinking about this show as a potential for spiritual awakening...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
for these ridiculous people they're ridiculous people but some of them might have a spiritual awakening of some kind rick certainly seems like you know to get something question mark out of his therapy session inside of this episode so you can agree or disagree we can talk about that in a second but something that you know you mentioned what we've seen in other seasons of white lotus this idea of identity is a prison i feel like there's two outcomes from your state three outcomes from your stay white lotus one is you go home in a body bag um okay
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
The other two are you break free from something, you have a transcendent experience that radically changes your relationship, your family dynamics, and like that. And then the other one, and the one we've seen a couple times that is the hardest for me to watch is... almost like a cementing of yourself inside of something tough.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I think about I'll be in season two inside of that family where he was like the different one differently could break the, the, the sort of generational philandering thing that was happening in his family. But in the final, final sequence, In White Lotus season two, we see grandfather, father, son all turn their head to Ogle Woman as she walks by.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
And the implication is just like Albie's just going to be just like his dad and his grandfather, certainly. Rachel in season one, Rachel is played by Alexander Daddario. And we're like, leave Shane. He's the worst. There she is, just cozied up with Shane at the end of the season.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
So this idea of, like, can you break out of this identity bucket that you've been put in, or are you just going to sort of further nestle yourself into the role that's been designed for you? So...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
how does this apply in your view when you're thinking about the rat lifts and you're thinking about like Lachlan on the verge of trying to make a decision Piper sort of exploring something else um Saxon wanting to be just like his dad but not knowing that this thing is coming for his dad like how do you think of this idea of identity as it pertains to those characters
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
But there's a million different reasons to do it. And I should have known. That the great multitaskers of the world, the podcast listeners out there would would have this skill on lockdown. So thank you for all of your emails about that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I have provided this for you.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Killing it, Pam. Killing it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
yeah it's such an interesting gender split inside of that family you've got like the women the the unc women and the the duke men and locky sort of like in the middle between the two um and you're right sort of like posturing more masculine by rigid definitions posturing more masculine when he's with piper and then more submissive feminine if you want to say it that way when he's around um saxon
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
We got an email that people thought it was interesting that Piper and Saxon and Lachlan don't have any trace of an accent. Generationally, to me, that does not ping very strange. They were like, wouldn't they have the faintest whiff of a Tobacco Road sort of accent? I don't know. I don't know how in our constantly online monoculture state how accents are
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I've never been around drunk Rob. Does your accent come out when you have had some free beverages from the minibar? I don't think so. Okay. Yeah. How about when you go back home?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Yeah. Get out your texts. We'll be starting on page 12.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
um i have a friend from arkansas who you would not know is from arkansas until he gets four drinks in it's wild okay uh let's talk about rick our guy rick um We got an email from I got baited in the email and I could not resist taking the bait.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Blake wrote in on Shakespeare Corner and he pointed out that Rick says nothing comes from nothing, which is a pretty famous and important line from King Lear.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
said by lear to his daughter cordelia when she refuses to lather him with praise like her other two sisters could this be a little clue to suggest that jim hollinger is in fact rick's dad and then he potentially cut rick out of some kind of inheritance after an act of quote disrespect much like lear did to cordelia love a shakespeare corner thanks so much blake um i to me i will say inside of the session when rick is is talking to amarita about his dad
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
That sounded genuine to me. Whatever is true about Jim Hollinger, I believe that Rick thinks his dad is dead and not in the, like, Anakin Skywalker died so Darth Vader could live.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. What do you think about Rick's dad and Jim Hollinger and what we've learned so far?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Okay. You don't think this is personal vengeance?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Correct. We're here to talk to you about season three, episode two of White Lotus. And this is, I guess, what we're calling kind of the deep dive where Rob and I a couple days after the immediate aftermath pods that Mallory, Bill and I are doing on Sunday nights where we're just sort of vibing and talking about things we liked and.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Yeah, I just I watched that. I watched that interaction through a few times. And to me, it rings as true to him, though I agree with you that he does not want to be there. I believe that he believes what he's saying there. Whether or not he's saying it in an intentionally provocative way to try to get out of that session is its own thing. But in terms of that identity, bigger identity question...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
You think it's professional. I still tend to think it's personal vengeance of some kind. And the thing that I'm focused on with Rick is he seems like he's on a like that Chelsea is pulling him to do one thing, which is like, have fun, work on yourself.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Be here now. Be present. You have issues. Please work through them. Please be here with me. So that's like one force pulling on him. And then there's this other thing pulling on him. And, you know, from your point of view, it's professional. From my point of view, it's personal and vengeful. But either way, it feels like to me the Chelsea path is the better path, is the right path.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
And it's up in the air to me at this point. Whether Rick is going to be one of those characters where we are disappointed that he couldn't break out of either his professional gig as a hitman? Is that what you're saying? Professional hitman?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
It doesn't seem good, right? Whatever it is, it doesn't seem like, okay.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
You just love him as an outlaw. I understand. I really do understand.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
And Mallory's baffling and enduring crush on Patrick Schwarzenegger's character. All of that sort of stuff is in the mix. And a couple days later, Rob and I get your emails. We look at Reddit. We read interviews with people. And we dig into some corners of the episode. So, yeah, we got a lot of emails, too. Rob, where can folks contact us for this episode?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
there's genuine affection and connection there when she runs to him after the robbery, the connection that they have in bed, like all of that stuff feels genuine. Like there is affection there. There is a potential there for Rick to make a choice. It seems like to me.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
And I don't know which way he's going to go. And can he, can he, The identity of Chelsea's boyfriend is much better to me than whatever else he's facing in terms of like, you know, son, a child of tragedy or all these other things that are hanging over him that truly did happen to him. But can you escape whatever, you know, trap that is for yourself and choose something else?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
But some break out.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
So it's like, so what's going to happen here? And the way I see it is like, You know, there's do I go? It seems like there's a do I go to Bangkok and pursue Jim Hollinger there or do I stay here at the White Lotus with Chelsea?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Yep. I think so.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I'm worried for you, Rick. OK, let's talk about. Someone objected to us calling them the Blonde Blob, but again, that is what Mike White called them. You can go with Fancy Cougars, which is Bill's, or Bill has started calling them just the Fancies, if you prefer. The Fancies has softened a little bit. Yeah, exactly.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I think that's so true. In Kara's email, she pointed out certain cases like the fact that Leighton Meester had to dye her hair brunette to be to play opposite Blake Lively and stuff like that. So, yeah, there's often a we can't have two blondes, we can't have three brunettes, something like that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
couldn't possibly do it okay so on the one hand that is true and i love that point i'm glad you brought that up on the other hand inside of their blonde loveliness yeah i was thinking about this is you know you're slightly younger than me there's there's this like early era of internet did you ever watch teen girl squad is that ever something that came across your transom no joe those words mean nothing to me what is teen girl squad it's like early
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
early internet uh like cartoon sketchery but teen girl squad which is genuinely great and i think about all the time if the intro would be like the pretty one the ugly one what's her face so and so um and so um This idea that like the Blonde Blob, despite their blobbiness, have these set roles that perhaps they played.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Jacqueline was always the face is something that they talked about earlier, right? Like there are distinct roles inside of their friendships that they've always had. And what is challenged inside of this episode when Valentin does his thing, which is tell the women the same thing. what does that do to Jacqueline?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Well, nothing, nothing gets between friends like data, Joe, like metrics, like body fat percentage. So like Jacqueline having to consider that Lori could be compared to her. Yeah. Is as you said, devastating to Jacqueline. So these identities inside of their same demo are,
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Jacqueline's power as the pretty one the face is so important to her and it is personally devastating to her to have that challenge and it makes me think about like when you think about Tim Ratliff or Jacqueline Lemon here they're the power that protects them I'm the rich provider I'm the hot TV star also the provider who's paying for this trip for the most part Exactly. It's so brittle.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
It's so fragile. And like what happens when it cracks or is exploded?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Right.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Does it have to be a monkey literally picks up a gun or can it be a monkey spooks, startles, attacks someone and the ensuing shootout is sort of incited by a monkey? In other words, if a monkey is involved in the shootout.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
yeah um there's also a question i don't know the answer to it but there's the question i think we got some emails about this i've seen floating around this idea of like new money versus old money oh yeah like it's kate new money and victoria is definitely old money so there's just sort of like this and jacklyn's new money too and oh hence why she's a prostitute yeah
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
It's like just a drop. You barely made me any money.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
So for the love of coffee, go try them now. Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
yeah um okay so something i want to say about that breakfast scene um when piper is doing her devastating this is disneyland from for you know women from malibu and their lulu 11 yoga pants and then The ladies walk by and they're Lululemons.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Get them, Piper. Okay, so here's the thing. My best friend, Diana Helmuth, wrote a book called 50 Places to Practice Yoga Before You Die. She works on this 50 Places book franchise. And I the the hard time she had in calling around, you know, investigating these like really cool places you can go to do yoga around the world. A lot of them in Asia, Southeast Asia, etc.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Trying to find non-white women to talk to because most of these retreats are run by white women who have gone to find themselves in Asia. Yeah. And, you know, my best friend, a white woman, but it was like driving her up the wall. She's like, I don't want to keep talking to all these white women who have gone to India to find themselves. But it was like making me think about that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
And she, you know, she eventually found them. It's a great book. But it was just like it was just like the struggle was real in terms of how much white women have taken over society.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
this scene uh inside of of southeast asia and i was just thinking about jacqueline and kate when i was thinking about that something our listener joanna wrote in about not me another joanna um she was like let's not put laurie in the shrinking violet bucket like she is a hard-hitting successful
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
maybe did not get the latest promotion but successful lawyer in new york so at apparently a top firm so like we've been waiting for like what's the carrie coon explosion like whatever's gonna come inside of the fracturing of this friend group or something like that let's not expect that laurie the lawyer is gonna take it lying down no right is that uh something that's on your radar
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Will we still feel vindicated in the monkey theory?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Yeah, yeah. What do you think... Jacqueline and Lori will find to talk shit about Kate. Will it be the beans? Will it be like, oh, the bean conversation?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
If she brings the beans one more time.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
What about a monkey statue or a monkey mural?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
It's it's been time.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Um... One thing that I love that Mike White has said over the course of three seasons of this show is when people are like, hey, which of these characters do you most closely identify with? And he's like, I'm all of them.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Is how Mike White thinks about these characters. So we got an email from listener Alex who was saying, was rewatching season one. You brought up our pal Sidney Sweeney. Yeah. Alex pointed out that in season one, Sydney Sweeney and her friend are making up personas for all the guests.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
And they mentioned something about how Jennifer Coolidge's character is a rich woman waiting for her friends who just, quote, tolerate her because she pays for everything. Interesting how Mike White seeded this even then. Curious if this inspired the blondies. Cute. Or if he has been plotting this all along. Either way, just appreciate the attention to detail always.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
So I do think there's always a version inside of White Lotus of the have and the have not inside of these characters.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
uh an unbalanced power like if you think of like Portia in season two working for Tanya like the only reason Portia's there is because she's in Tanya's employ and stuff like that yes um if Mike White an incredibly successful and rich yet deeply insecure uh person is someone who has gone around the world thinking hey are these people just hanging out with me because I'm rich because I'm successful because I'm famous and like uh Jacqueline Lemon
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Why are Kate and Lori there? Because they really care about Jacqueline. Are Kate and Lori there because... it's an all-inclusive cool trip to Thailand with their famous, they can draft off the fame a bit of Jacqueline.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Yeah, and I've definitely done that with friends of, you know, out of concern, also veered into shit-talking territory. That is, I'm merely a human. I like to think I don't do it very much anymore, but definitely when I was younger, that was the thing that I did. I want to talk to you about... The robbery.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
And our guy, Valentin. Who is not just our guy.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
You're a guy.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Who is not only causing strife with the biometrics, but also it seems like is involved in the boutique robbery.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Definitionally. I completely agree. So double dipping on White Lotus is something we're doing on this feed. And then Rob and I are also covering Severance, a tremendous show. Those podcasts come out at the end of the week. We've got a very special guest this week. We...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
A hundred percent. What do you know about the Russian population in Thailand?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I sure can. I read some articles about it because I, Mike White was talking in interviews about how when they spent time there, there were so many Russians. He felt like it would be weird to not include a Russian storyline. It would not genuinely reflect what's happening in Thailand right now to not include a Russian storyline. So it was like news to me. What can you tell me?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
So there's a great time, a magazine article, I think from last year about this, um, Quoting from that article, while many Western nations have shut out Russian air travel in response to Vladimir Putin's full-scale invasion of Ukraine, Thailand sees Russian arrivals as key to reviving its pandemic-ravaged tourism industry.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
In October, Thai Prime Minister extended 90-day visas upon arrival for Russian passports, insisting in a February interview, we're not part of the Ukraine conflict, we're neutral. In 2023, Russians ranked top for tourist arrivals in Thailand from the outside of Asia with 1.4 million visitors.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
um it's a way to avoid the draft if you go to thailand and just stay there you can not get drafted into the war wow and so that's a thing that you can do so it's like going to uh to canada for americans during vietnam and then um
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
In Phuket, the Laguna Beachfront complex of villas, ornamental lake, et cetera, and 18-hole golf course is now dubbed Little Moscow for the sheer influx of moneyed Russians who have just come to sort of shelter in Thailand. So that is a thing. We've got Valentin, but like what else is to come on the Russian storyline front? Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
What do you want to say about, I don't know, this is a sort of thing that's happening in Thailand or the robbery or anything else pertaining to your guy, Valentin?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
My guy's not spry. He is not a spry guy.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I, because Rob was not here in studio, got to have a chat with Damon Lindelof, the co-creator of Lost and Watchmen and Leftovers, and that conversation about Severance, about his Severance theories, about the Lost references on Severance, all that sort of stuff. So that episode will be up on YouTube in full, so you can watch a video of that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
The Muay Thai fights, I really am hoping is part of the storyline in this show. Yeah. you said our guy guy talk okay I walked that one back to he's also not my guy last week you were on nice guy watch nice guy talk watch yep where are you after this I mean more even more on that corner
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I love that this is a slight role reversal for us because we got a lot of emails from people being like, we love that Rob is an ally. Rob is the best. Rob is in on this. And I'm like, I don't know. I'm all in on Guy Talk. I really like him.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
They've known each other forever, though.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Okay, listen. Don't underestimate someone who can hang a picture frame. But also, like, I agree that there are moves here that feel classically capital N, capital G nice guy.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I think it all depends on his reaction to Mook. And I don't feel like his reaction to her rejection was shitty.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Disappointed?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Does that... Okay. But does that mean that she's somewhat interested in him? What it requires for Guy Tuck to not be in capital N, capital G, nice guy territory is reciprocity. Right? The nice guy is pursuing without any measure of interest from the girl. In fact, turning a blind eye to her discomfort and disinterest. And while Mook... Is sort of like, hey, man, we haven't even been on a date.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Why are you proposing marriage to me? She's not reading as uncomfortable to me when she's around him.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
We record it in studio, and then an edited version of that conversation will be on our Episode 7 Severance podcast that's coming out at the end of the week. So you can hear bits and pieces of it on, on Friday with the severance podcast, or you can watch the YouTube version, which should be up in the middle of this week. So either today, Wednesday or tomorrow, Thursday.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
My guy.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Okay. I think it's good to keep an eye on Guy Talk or any nice guy that we meet, capital N, capital G. But I...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
i'm leaning because i feel like oftentimes actually that's not true season one i was just thinking that there was like the the front desk couple in season two that were like hotel staff um that you know were quite background but we're like kind of rooting for um i don't know good to keep an eye on it uh our our my guy guy talk is a hero for the moment
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
even though he didn't really do anything, but that's okay.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
want to call out our guy our guy fabian uh who's the who's the resort manager who like in comparison to the two resort managers that we've seen the previous seasons has a much smaller role um but we did get a couple emails from people pointing out that christian friedel who plays fabian uh or friedel who plays fabian um was a a
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Scary Ass Nazi in the Zone of Interest, a tremendous film that came out two years ago. So is there something coming for Fabian? As we were waiting for Carrie Coon to have her big moment, should we be waiting for Fabian's big moment? And is it going to be performing at dinner some night or something else?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
He's so great. Trying to tell someone not to clear the plate in the most inefficient way possible. I don't know how he got this job, but good for him. Do you think the biggest threat to, you mentioned the Hollinger bodyguards, but do you think the biggest threat to the Guy Talk Mook romance could be if Pornchai takes his shirt off in front of Mook?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
So fun, fun things in the prestige TV podcast feed. Okay. Monkeys. I have another thing to talk to you about. Okay. Rob.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Where do you feel we're most likely to land?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
And just admire the ocean hammocks. You're a hammock guy, Rob. You love a hammock.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I mean, monkey shit is one thing. And the monkey interstitials, as you pointed out, something that Mallory pointed out on the other podcast was that in season two, a lot of the interstitials were those vases with the heads on them that were related to this folklore story that really had nothing at the end of the day to do with Tanya's death in season two of White Lotus.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
What if it's like a waiting, you're waiting out scenario? You're waiting out to the thing and you're just holding your book.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
she's she's a talented individual all right so um if you guys are listening to this it's great and we love when you listen if you're watching i just want to let you know that i've been podcasting how long we've been podcasting now over a year yeah a year and a half we've had a good run i've never seen you make as an uncomfortable face as you just made earlier when you were describing the ratless siblings so would you like to return to that i thought we would take a brief respite
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
We talked earlier about Rick being a character that I see as like having a choice to make. Lachlan is even more identified as someone who has to be like they have explicitly said it. I have a big choice to make between Duke and UNC, but like between which side, which sibling am I more going to lie myself with? Which side am I going to more identify with?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Am I going to go with Piper, who I think we all agree, at least you and I agree, is the more palatable option here, right?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
it feels like Schwarzenegger who's again, they're all doing a great job. Schwarzenegger has more teeth than a human usually does in his mouth. He's like a shark. Yeah. Very sharky. Or is he going to lie himself with Saxon? And again, to go back to that whole, like, People often end up disappointing us on White Lotus.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
So thematically was related, but was not
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I am fully braced for Lachlan to disappoint me and, you know, just sort of embrace the the you got to build up your muscles and hunt chicks and live your life that way. success, pussy, etc. That's the life path for you.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I should not infantilize Locke. You're right. He's doing some stuff.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
someone was killed by a vase so or a vase grabbed a gun or anything like that so it could be that the monkeys are just here thematically and if the monkeys are here thematically something we might want to keep in mind as we talk about spirituality and buddhism uh is this concept of the monkey mind uh that is part of buddhist practice and the monkey mind is quote a state of restlessness capriciousness and lack of control in one's thoughts
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Hold on, hold on, hold on. Yes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
It is what he says. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
There's a very luxurious front room with many couches. Someone should be sleeping on the couch.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
In an ordinary family, I would say this is not an issue. In this family, let's just separate sleeping quarters. Seems like a great idea.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Just truly deranged behavior. I mean, but like enjoying yourself to porn in a room that is like barely insulated is also deranged behavior. Nothing but deranged behavior from Saxon. Here's something we should say. Let's run down. So we've got like to reiterate our threats, our potential threats.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Monkeys.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Question mark. uh the hollinger bodyguards have guns something to think about you know gun involved in the in the robbery etc um tsunami watch where are you on tsunami watch i mean lachlan's openly talking about a girl who thought a tsunami was coming at the end of this episode that's a true story yeah makes sense tracks certainly ominous as hell
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
she was like a 12 a 10 year old girl who like saved a bunch of people because she studied tsunamis in her geography class and actually probably you're not taking a geography class in when you're 10 but maybe her class section on geography okay um or probably possibly geology okay um monica our list of 10 year olds are taking geology classes you might have a geology unit
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Yeah. Why not? I love a talc exploration. Okay. The poisonous tree.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
pong pong tree which is what this tree is which is related to oleander as in white oleander as in a movie about poisoning someone um the suicide tree is what is called the suicide tree like genuinely if you go to wikipedia right now and look up this tree at the top top lines it's not like very deep and some people call it no no right at the top it's like aka the suicide tree but
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
A real soft launch for the Pong Pong tree. But our listener, Monica, pointed out, and I went back and rewatched it, and she's correct, that Lachlan was out of earshot and not paying attention during Pam's lecture about the poison fruit.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
What could go better in a smoothie?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Then the suicide tree.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
The pong pong tree. So those are all just things to think about. Yeah. As we think about why there's anything else that we haven't talked about that I want to mention.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
we did have a listener i will say a listener nisha wrote in about uh a complicated money laundering the one mdb scandal uh and how it might relate to the rat lifts yeah show kell scandal okay here's something i'll say okay this this is this is i have i have a stick up my ass about this the reaction i'm seeing to the three blondes the blondies is people saying they're the worst. They're the worst.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
They would never want to be around them. They're the worst people. Rob thinks Rick is a contract killer. We will find out. Greg literally got Tanya killed in season two. Indirectly, but I'm still blaming him. And Tim Ratliff... Is a fucking bamboozler on a massive scale that has surely impacted people who don't have disposable income to be impacted by whatever grift that he has been doing.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Um, which is, uh, you know, uh, uh, a smear on monkeys, uh, you know, to be clear, but restlessness, capriciousness and lack of control. And when one's thoughts, is there a single character, uh, that you would most put under the monkey mind definition inside of this episode?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
So the the women who are kind of mean about each other behind each other's back.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I just I just it bothers. It's like the different standard that people are held to. And I'm just sort of like Tim Ratliff. Keep your eye on Tim Ratliff. I am like feeling for him on a certain level because Jason Isaac is really good at what he does. So he is like panic is quite intriguing to me. But he is a fucking like shitty person.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
rich criminal asshole, the kind of grifter that in 2025 we should be very much have our eye on.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
You don't want to hear about beans?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
It's a no. Piper, maybe.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I don't disagree.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Laurie...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
molly was telling me she was just on a trip and it was like she sent me a photo like a vacation photo of her and her uh two other friends they're all brunette she said the brunette the brown blob or the brunette blob or something like that and i was like well i was like which one are you and i was like oh wait no of course you're you're jacqueline lemon uh you know on camera star she's like i hope i'm laurie i'm like we all hope we're laurie
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
We all really hope we're Lori. But like, what are we going to do? But also, do we? Lori's also having a tough time. Lori just seems like she enjoys a Sauvignon Blanc, as do I. And so I support her and all of her.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I think it's because both of them have...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
wavy hair that gets a bit frazzled in humidity it seems to be like the main connection anyway they're the only two people who have that like no no one else purses out definitely not me um listen uh lori is not porsche's mom no i just think that that's so clear they they talk about her as like a young girl there's there's also this theory that this is a prequel season i just think that that is like
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Belinda recognizes Greg like that is just not yeah but we should say doesn't put it all together yet like she seems to recognize him but doesn't necessarily know who he is she's like I know I know that guy but from where that's weird right so like it's not a this is not a prequel season Laurie is not Portia's mom if she is we will apologize but I just really don't think that's the case but you know what
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
There's room for all kinds of wild theories because sometimes your wild theory is correct and sometimes it is a monkey with a gun. So monkeyshoot.gmail.com is where you can reach us. Absolutely.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
thanks to uh justin sales for his tireless work on this very crowded feed that we have going on right now thanks john richter for his incredible work on the video front to ct today who's helping out on the video front and to donna beach who is our uh great producer making sure we sound great on this episode we will be back with severance
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
uh in just a few days Rob what a time for us to be podcasting about great shows and uh please do check out that Damon Lindelof conversation we had a great time with Damon and uh he did weigh in on uh the Lakers Mavericks situation and I did my best Rob Mahoney impression not a good one but my best one so there we go NBA podcaster Joanna Robinson we love to see it we simply love to see it all right we'll see you soon bye
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I do. I do know what separates a chitter from a chatter. Thank you so much for asking me. Chittering. is a higher register, I would say, and a faster cadence than a chatter.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Chittering usually has to do with bugs, but they chitter and they skitter, that sort of thing. They do. You're a dog guy. I'm a cat person. I will let you know that cats chitter when they're hunting. If like you see a cat sees a bird out the window, it'll make this like little like shitter noise on the hunt. Oh, that's just very disconcerting. It's terrifying. I love cats. OK.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
And we're here today to talk to you about listening to audiobooks while reading books at the same time. We sure are. Rob, have we ever gotten as many emails about, you know, a subject matter? I think this massively dwarfs the chicken-washing emails we've gotten from the Severance listenership this week.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Monkey minded people. I will say this. Tim Ratliff. in his desperation, is reading a bit Monkey Mind.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Yeah, his brain is chittering and chattering at the same time, and it's a lot for him to handle. Okay, and then on the spirituality side,
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
sort of blanket around this show um we got multiple emails from one listener um the first time he sent it through max he sent through turquoise watch he then updated it to teal watch and once he updated it to teal watch it's on our radar i was in because if folks have been listening to us podcasts on the speed for a while you might remember that when we did true detective we were on hardcore teal watch
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
So the reason that our listener Max is on teal, not turquoise watch in terms of like, let's see, what were some of the examples? Like a bathing suit or a suitcase or this, that, and the other. He was just like this color keeps coming up associated with a lot of characters. And he pointed out that in several religions...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
This color is believed to symbolize clarity and insight as a reminder of the sky and the sea, which are vast and expansive, representing the infinite nature of God's uppercase G or lowercase G if you prefer wisdom and creation. So I would like to fully induct all of us to Teal Watch 2025 White Lotus Edition.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
That's exactly it. So sort of like who's wearing the teal and does or holding something as teal or wrapped as something as teal and does that color at that time indicate some kind of clarity I guess would be the idea behind teal watch. Accent corner. Rob, we got a lot of accent emails.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
It's a lot. I will say this. The most compelling argument I've seen in the these accents are fine actually camp is that Mike White gave an interview talking about how the Bravo series Southern Charm, which I've never seen, is an inspiration for the Ratliff family. And that and then we got several emails from people saying Tommy Ravenel specifically is
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
on that show, the look, the tan, the polos, the everything, the teeth is, is a close comp to Jason Isaac's character. And this guy was also a disgraced public figure. So, you know, whom amongst us has not been disgraced by something in their time, but yes, we are, we are a, an audience divided on accent corner and, I would say I don't find it distracting.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I don't think it's no like I don't think anything is offensively bad. I think some vowels here and there are squidgy, but like Jason Isaacs is and Parker Posey are two of my favorite performers on the show and in general in life. And so it's not a complaint. And I think it's been an interesting conversation from people.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
the the overall marathon of maintaining the accent okay rob is referring to this thing we did on on the ringer verse feed called ringer quest where we did a dnd campaign we we filmed that back in like november is when we did that um i did not know it was going to drop right in the middle of me critiquing professional actors and their southern accents
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
let's be very clear my southern accent is a way worse than anything that isaacson posy i've ever dreamed of um but i'm not a professional actor uh ringer quest uh dnd campaign if you want to hear my terrible southern accent i enjoy bringing that up i've enjoyed it a lot okay great um mini beers
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
no regularized beers in a mini fridge people seem to think they're all included in in the resort experience could be that spa is all a cart but your meals and your in-room treats are all inclusive sure so eat all the melon you want to eat at breakfast while you're bizarrely snubbing someone who you met at uh in austin at a birthday shower you know Love a snub.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I don't think it's against me. Okay, this is a severance. We're going to talk about this in the severance pod. I don't think it's against me. I think it's out of concern for me.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Lastly, you didn't think that was a snub?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
It's like that is what's going on.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I feel like, and I talked to Bill Mallory about this, but I really read to me as someone who doesn't remember it and is like slightly embarrassed that she doesn't remember. So it was covering it with rudeness. Okay. And then the staircase connection, we got a lot of emails about this, but I'll just read from one we got from Cara.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
The staircases is a, you know, true crime documentary and then a fictional series about the Peterson family and,
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
um and the reason that i brought it up to bill and mallory before was there was part one of the theories about um what happened to the matriarch of the peterson family when she fell down a bunch of stairs is that an owl did it and so i was like an owl did it a monkey did it let's just all talk about that in the family but a lot of people have pointed out that um
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
The Peterson family lived in Durham, North Carolina. They went to Duke, blah, blah, blah. And they had adopted daughters, Margaret and Martha Ratliff. The name Ratliff is associated with the Peterson family. And also that Patrick Schwarzenegger and Parker Posey were in the staircase. So there's just like a lot of staircase connections going on. But this was Durham.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
This was like I think the most compelling comp is that this was like Durham's biggest true crime case that ever happened. And so the question is, if we're talking about a North Carolina family based on Southern Charm or not. Do you believe there's a version of this story where Tim Ratliff, unraveling as he is under the pressure of this looming scandal, does something to himself or his family?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Is he someone you have your eyeball on in that way?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
A new phrase for me. I learned from our emails.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Do you feel like Tim is going to go the Greg Gary route and change his name to Tom and disappear?
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
This episode of the Prestige TV podcast is brought to you by Coffee Mate. Coffee Mate has been searching the globe for flavors that pair perfectly with coffee. So when they heard that the new season of HBO's The White Lotus was set in Thailand, they were inspired to brew up two new flavors, Thai iced coffee and piña colada flavored creamers. They're available for a short time only.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I mean, especially since the biggest burden is on this actor, Owen Cooper, who's this kid who is incredible in the show. And a couple other kids, too. There's several young performers who are asked to do some really heavy lifting emotionally in these episodes. The idea that, yeah, if you – and then you fuck up a line and – Your beautiful reaction you gave.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
No, but what if I brought some of the pineapple high chews that they have here at the office?
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
So those behind-the-scenes sort of featurettes are incredible to watch. They used... It's usually sort of handheld onto certain cranes and that sort of stuff, but there is one drone... The flashiest sort of thing is the end of episode two drone shot, which I didn't need, but like... But... Let's sort of go through the advantages and disadvantages of... Damn, you're anti-drone.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
It's a novel, loves a drone.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
No, I mean, no, I wasn't anti that shot. It just was it was an ambitious bit of flair.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
That I didn't need for the episode to be great, but like doesn't not work.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
The pineapple high cheese are sneaky the best high cheese. Okay. So listen, severance, noon, pineapple, BYO pineapple. We're going to do a severance Q&A, live mailbag sort of situation. You can send questions in advance to where, Rob Mahoney?
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
It's dazzling or even just watching them like even inside of the family's home, you know, a mid sides ish home with a kind of tight staircase where watching the behind the scenes of them handing the camera up the staircase to capture people in the stairs is incredible stuff.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And, um, I think that, um, I don't know. OK, let's talk about it this way. So Graham said and I love this idea. Stephen Graham said it was his note was I never want the camera to not be following a character. Yeah, I don't want the camera just wandering hall. So even when we get to the second episode, the police know in the first episode in the police station, we're wandering all around.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
But we are given like various sergeants and nurses and stuff like that or a lawyer or That like when we go in and out of rooms, we're following that person as they're sort of moving paperwork around or whatever it is they're doing. And so we're always with a human that we like identify as a character that we know the school.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
There are teachers and students and stuff like that that we're following around. So here's a one or disadvantage. And this is a me problem. My brain can't shut off a running commentary of how did they do that? How did they do that one? How did they get that? How did they achieve that?
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
My infamous, yeah, slack jaw delight. But yeah, just like my puzzle brain is just sort of like, how did they get the camera to do this? Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
that was most distracting i would say in episode one and then by episode two even though there's still a lot of movement around the school yeah i was able to kind of let go of it um and then episode three because it is just basically two people in a room for most that episode then it was just sort of gone um is that something that happens to you that do you get like distracted by sort of thinking about the logistics of how they got the shot or the camera to move that way
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And not only that, and this is something I do want to come back to, but like,
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
re-watching that episode because you watch that whole episode you're pretty sure this kid did it because of i don't know the thumbnail art on the netflix splash page but also just sort of like what are we doing here if this kid didn't do it see i i wasn't that i wasn't that sure until until the end of episode one okay so that i mean that's what they're trying to go for and like i would say um
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
But also we will be answering questions sort of live from the chat inside of this Q&A, which you can find on YouTube on the Ringer TV channel at noon on Wednesday. And then it also will just be there after that so that you can watch it later. But why not join us for lunch or, I don't know, a 3 p.m. snack if you're on the East Coast or other time zones.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
when you rewatch it, knowing that those two cops already have seen this video or, you know, the nurse might even, you know, like who knows who all these people who are the lawyer, certainly. And, and he says is at some point he's like, they wouldn't have entered your home in that manner and done on this unless they had really compelling evidence. Yes. So he is like,
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
very ready for that video to be, you know, part of this interrogation.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Cause he knows what's coming. Right. Whereas the father is, is blindsided by it. But I think that like, um, thinking about those two cops, um, Who we meet at the beginning and they're very normal everyday conversation that they have going into this. But knowing that they're in for a horrible day because they and have been because this murder happened the night before.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
So they've been probably like, you know, they've been working all night. Totally. Or the nurse saying, I think something like, I hate a juvenile case me. You know what I mean? Like she knows everything. She's being nice, but nice with this like bit of reserve to it of like, I, you wouldn't be here if there wasn't something seriously wrong going on here. Do you know what I mean?
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Are you saying there's been pushback on the show for treating him too kindly?
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And then we will have our Severance finale pod up on Thursday night rather than the usual Friday morning. But then we will be doing another pod at the top of next week to sort of gather your reactions to the finale and our look ahead to the future. And we might have some extra bonus stuff on that episode as well.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I feel mixed about it. I wanted to talk, and that's in my notes to talk about. I consider that, of my advantage, disadvantage of a one-er, and I will zoom back to some other things, I have this under mixed, because... Long-form storytelling TV can take you anywhere inside of a story.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And that's an advantage of something like, let's say, Broadchurch, where we're inside so many people's homes and so many people's lives. And we're at home with, you know, no spoilers for Broadchurch, but we're at home with the murderers as much as we're at home with the parents who are grieving, you know, the child and stuff like that. And so... So a disadvantage...
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
To sticking so firmly on Jamie and Jamie's family and something that Stephen Graham said, he was like, we really thought it'd be interesting to be with Jamie's family in the final episode. Yes. Is interesting and it's interesting in the advantage of the one or which is you're there in the claustrophobic silences. You're there with Jamie crying in the van ride to the police station.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
You're there with Bryony, the therapist, as she like stands and wait for the hot chocolate machine to deposit all the hot chocolate into the cup. You know, like those those those narrowing the iris of the story down into this one hour of time.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
is interesting and causes of caused a visceral reaction in me that is that I feel positively about yeah I wasn't sure if that moment again I also love Faye Marseille I was not sure of that moment of calling out this thing lampshading essentially what they were doing was satisfied me enough because the disadvantage of being in the present is
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
You know, we talk about this all the time when we talk about murder shows.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Yeah, the Laura Palmer wrapped in plastic, this idea of like... Or Rosie Larson on the killing. But in at least the Laura Palmer... We get, you know, fire walk with me or at least with Rosie Larson and the killing, we get flashbacks, some flashbacks to her. You know what I mean? Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And in this case, it's like Katie, we know a little bit through her friend that we meet in episode two at the school, but we don't really know anything about her. I'm not mad about it because I think this is a very interesting story to tell. So I'm not like, you know, it invalidates it to leave it out. I'm just not sure that lampshading it like gets them entirely off the hook for doing it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Yes, exactly.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
That's a lot.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I love that. And I love that when they talk about the show, the line that they've been using in all the interviews is not this isn't a whodunit, but a why done it. Right. And like the fact that the show has no easy answers to your point about like your preconceived notions around a Stephen Graham type. Yes. The answer isn't, oh, he was abused by his father. That's not the answer.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
That's great. We might also be covering the studio. Don't worry about it. It's a lot. We're doing fine. We're having a great time here in this content nirvana we find ourselves in. So let's talk about adolescence. Four episodes on Netflix. It's one hour each episode. It's a British show. And the premise is a 13-year-old boy is arrested on suspicion of a very serious crime.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
The story they want to present to you is this actually is a fairly, like, loving, normal home. And I think that all of the you're so bright, you're a smart kid comments was not just them sort of making things in the same way, do you want cornflakes made, like, sort of thing, but also to underline, like, This is a smart kid.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And this is a thing that happened with this smart kid from a loving family. I do want to say, I agree with you that it's not a salacious, we're not glamorizing murder. We're not doing anything like that, but I'm going to, I'm going to like call it one last advantage of the one-er. And this is sort of like where I started with the concept as a conduit to story.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
It breaks through the noise of content.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
In a way that we talked about a bit with the pit as well, right? Like the pit being the concept is every episode is an hour in one shift. They're not doing one-ers in that hospital, but like, There's a hook.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And so I don't know that a very well acted, very well written, very seriously considered four episode drama about a kid who did a murder would be the thing everyone's buzzing about on a weekend, a Netflix drop, were it not for this other part of it. And so as much as it like... I wish that weren't the case of what we had to do to get really good stories told. Like sometimes that is the case.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
So it is.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
every emotion on screen has to work itself out organically over time and that can lead to all sorts of fascinating and terrifying and painful places and i mean even in even in even in one and two to your point yeah even in one and two because we're in such a crowded environment we're not cutting away for relief but sometimes we do move into a less stressful room yes inside of the police station or inside of the school though that school is extremely stressful everywhere but
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And a teacher.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And also the woman who was, I forget the name of the woman who was like leading them around.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Her completely ineffective sort of unaware attitude was, okay. But I want to talk a bit about the sort of sympathy, no sympathy seesaw for Ryan, which I think is sort of meticulously done across the series. And no place better, I think, than episode three. But Owen Cooper, incredible. You will see him next as young Heathcliff in the ill-advised Emerald Fennell, Wuthering Heights. Oh, no.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Co-starring Margot Robbie and Jacob Elordi.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I think when that drops, people are going to see him and be like, who is that kid? He's great if they didn't already see him in this. So I think he'll come out fine. I just don't think the project's a good idea. That's another. That's a problem for another day. The way that it's...
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
rolled out in the first episode um and then and then we take a break from Jamie and then he comes back in episode three but like through this whole thing I was sure that he had done something yeah But I wasn't not until you see the video or you like without much provocation at all.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
You know, we're immediately into a violent though to your point about salacious in the distance, slightly grainy. Yeah. In a way that like. we are with his father in that moment of this kid who has been so scared, who has been whimpering, who has been so polite. Yep. You know, who is, who seems so bright, all this sort of stuff like that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And we sort of follow the investigation over time from there. The sort of hook of the show, a reason why it's breaking through in conversation, among other things, is the fact that each of these four one-hour episodes are shot in one shot.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Or in episode three, which is my favorite episode, sort of by far. Same. The way that Aaron Doherty's character, Bryony comes in, having seen him already for several sessions.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Liking him. Yeah. Like comes in with a sandwich for him with, you know, with banter. And she digs into a place that by the end she can't even touch the sandwich that she brought into him. She's so perturbed by what has happened here and watching it. We are meant to. This kid is not – I think what's so special about Jamie as a character is it's not like – spoilers for Primal Fear.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
It's not like Edward Norton in Primal Fear where like a switch flips and you're like, oh, my God, this guy has been playing us all along. No, no. It's like this is a kid. Everything he says is real. But if you dig one or two layers under the surface, there's something very scary there. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
But not disconnected from the nice kid that you are like feel so bad that he thinks he's the ugliest kid in class or that or the other thing. You know what I mean?
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
So for the love of coffee, go try them now. Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
They're oners. And as far as I can tell from behind this, like interviews and behind the scenes footage, these are actual oners, not digitally seamed oners. And we'll sort of talk about the extraordinary process of making the show. We can talk about that. Um, yeah. But this is this is a show written by Jack Thorne, who has done a bunch of adaptive IP work that is like hit or miss for me.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Yeah. That episode, episode three... Very little happens outside of the room except for this, like, guy at the facility sort of hitting on her, question mark? Is that what's happening?
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Yeah, chatting her up a bit in a way that, like... is all in the mix of the larger conversation of the show. But I was struck by some of the just, like, tiny pieces of language. And again, Jack Thorne has been, like, a hit or miss writer for me, but some of the tiny pieces of language inside of that episode when he says, in one of his freaked outs, your little head, right?
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And then when he says, when she waves off the guard and he's like, oh, like a queen. There is this, like... misogynistic language that is not like all women are sluts or what it's not big and obvious yes it's little and caked into the very marrow of who of who this who this kid has become yeah due to the environment that he has sort of found himself in and i think that like
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I think also the kid curiosity because there's Jamie who was our perpetrator. There's his friend Ryan who gave him the knife. And he and Ryan have these sort of like echo moments of their – you know. Jamie with Bryony and Ryan with Bascom both have this moment where Ryan goes, you were popular, right?
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
You were popular, right? And to Bryony, Jamie goes, oh, you're posh. And so there's this way in which they're identifying these adults as like, there's no way you can understand who I am. Yeah. Because you were popular or posh.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
But then a lot of like original work that I find more interesting. Like he wrote the Cursed Child. He wrote the for the His Dark Materials series. But then he's also done like This is England and a bunch of other stuff. And then Stephen Graham, who is one of my favorite actors and is really like doing some interesting stuff with his career right now. There's your Venoms, The Last Dances.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
The nuance of episode three of him saying it's fucked up that someone shared these photos of her. Yes. But also it put her in a weak position. So I thought that maybe she would go out with me.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
To the point where after his like final freak out in episode three, to the point where when we get to episode four, And we're considering it came to me the moment when he's on the phone. He calls his dad. It's his dad's 50th birthday. He calls his dad and his dad has him on speakerphone because his mom and his sister in the car. And he's talking for a while.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And then he's like, your mom and your sister are here. And he's like, oh, I thought I was just on the phone with you. And it like made me go back to like when he picks his adult, he picks his dad and his mom is like, why didn't he pick me? Or then later his dad is like, it should have been you. But like this idea that he's like, only my dad will understand me.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Like, and you know, that's, that's a human, that can be like a human thing, but it also felt like slightly gendered of like, I didn't know the women in my family were on this call. I thought I was just talking to my dad sort of thing. And that was like, It just slightly creeped me out in a way.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And then I feel I feel, you know, at the same time, the show just threads the needle really well because I really do feel for this kid. And when he like draws a card for his dad and just sort of like, man, it had me Googling like. Juvenile murder sentencing UK. What's the future like for this kid? Because he's done this horrific thing. And I'm still like, can we come back from this in some way?
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Is there a future of any kind for this kid? What do we do here?
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
We hear from the first, the very first episode at the beginning is trying to get out of going to school because he gets bullied all the time.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And then there's also this. But he's extraordinary on this show. So, Rob, what? Before we got the text from our producer Justin on Sunday being like, hey, do you guys want to crash an adolescence pod? Yes. You and I both had heard about this show. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
In a way that the show's not saying, this will fix it. No. Or like, everything's fine now.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
a move in the right direction.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And then the next thing we see as we're doing our fancy drone shot is a bunch of isolated kids on like down their phone. You know what I mean? Um, and Katie's friend in particular, like there's, there's no happy ending of that episode for her, you know? And so I think that like, um, all that stuff is really finely tuned. Um,
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Something that I like that they made sure to do is that all of the Andrew Tate sort of specific codified incel stuff, they only have the adults say.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I loved the scene with his son where his son's like, this is what these fucking emojis mean. You're embarrassing.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
But then also, I think that, yeah, so to have this, like, there's a language you don't understand. Your kid's not safe at night in his room. And there's an entire language. And not to be like, not to be all...
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
a father as a father of daughters about it but like my nephew who I love adore is like exactly this age and I was just like thinking about him so much and he's like so sweet and like all this you know like yards away from anything like this as far as I know but like but like
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Yeah, it gave me a real I was like, oh, no, not the father of daughters moment for you, Joanna, in terms of like empathy and fear. Yeah. In terms of watching and thinking about him going into high school and what that's going to be like and all of this stuff is just like really terrifying. And they've been kids.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I don't want to talk about them too much because I don't think my sister would want me to. But like they've been kids who have been raised without devices. And that was like a strong parenting choice she made. And in some regards, that is going to change their lives. But like, I don't think you can keep all of this out forever. And that's just like something to think about.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
We don't come here to bury the pit in order to praise adolescents. That's not... We love the pit. Still in the running for best show of the year for me so far. Love the pit. However, you and I were just sort of making fun of this line from the pit that Noah Wiley's character, Dr. Robbie, says, we are failing young men because we don't teach them how to express their emotions.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
We just tell them to man up and then we let them get their lessons in manhood from toxic podcasts. It was just like a little...
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
obvious on the nose tell versus show ultimately and the pit does so many things so well so like again i'm not here to like tear down the pit but i was just sort of like what they thought they were doing with that line is like what this show is doing in a much because it's the whole premise of this show is in a much more complex way. Again, there are no clear answers to how did this happen?
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
You and I both were like, yes, we will, because we have heard nothing but excitement around the show. So what had you heard that got you excited about the show that made you side text me being like, I want to do this. Do you want to do this, Joe? Sort of thing.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And there's no clear answer on how do we stop it? The show is not interested in solving this problem. The show is interested in
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
just holding it up for you to look at and think about something I love also in terms of the writing process in that like arduous three week shooting of each episode process is that they let the kids rewrite some of the lines because they're like you know we're men in our 50s and like what do we know about the way in which like teenagers now are talking and so I'm not a young teen so but but like
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Is this a show that's going to connect with young teens? I'm curious to know. I don't know.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
More so adults, for sure.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Definitely. But I do remember being a kid and I remember there are TVs and shows you can watch where you're like, that's not how a human... Of course.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And then there are shows you can watch where you're like – like, my so-called life lingers because my so-called life really got it right in terms of the way in which actual teenagers talk versus – I mean, Dawson Creek lingers for a different reason, but no human teen has ever said any of those words. So, like, if they got the way that the kids talk –
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
right right there's a better chance that a teen could watch this and say it you know not not scoff at like of course older men trying to tackle uh the problem of adolescence in the modern world anything else you want to say about the show problem honey
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I feel like we've had a real week talking about being TV criers, Rob, but like, yeah, I mean, I think that, um, that Aurora song, um, There is just a job incredibly well done. The show ends with a very sentimental.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Extremely sentimental song. Sentimental in like a very specific sort of like UK kind of that sort of like UK style. extra layer of schmaltz that I think that they are like capable of I say with absolute adoration and this extreme performance from Stephen Graham but like what I love about that and it all lands and I am also laid out but like I'm the kind of person where like
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
If they hadn't done it right, that would feel all too much. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean?
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
But I think watching – going back and sort of re-watching episode one and I didn't watch it all back through but I like sort of spot watched some things and like I remembered registering this at the time that Stephen Graham – he's giving a like – they break into the home. He's like, what are you doing? This is my home. You're wrecking the place, all this sort of stuff like this. But he is like –
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
often quite contained and stoic in that episode and until the end obviously but I remember watching it and I'm like they're giving us this because I know he has to go somewhere you know so they're starting us here so that Stephen Graham who's like every cut to his face I was like captivated by I just think he's incredible in this um
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
But yeah, I thought it all built up to an incredible conclusion and climax. And Christine Tremarco, whose work I'm not as familiar with, I thought was wonderful. Stephen Graham has said that those two actors have known each other since they were children. And there is this sort of like baked in... This is what I'm talking about. Like...
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
We've been talking about Christopher Guest films, like creating your stable of actors that you just feel comfortable and familiar with and you can go build from there. We're incredibly lucky to get to see it. Anything else you want to say about this tough to watch, but very incredible show?
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
um thank you to justin sales um thank you to john richter thank you to donnie beacham and we will be back for severance more white lotus and all other kinds of things here on the prestige feed and we'll see you soon bye
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I think this is a really easy one. A really easy yes, you should watch it recommendation. And also just a really easy show to decide whether or not you want to watch. If you watch the first episode and you like it. You'll know. That's the show. You know what I mean? Both sort of like stomach churning aspect and also just can I hang with the cadence of this hour shot episode.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
in one continuous shot. So we'll talk about all of that. So that's, yeah, we give it our recommendation. We think you should watch it. If you haven't, press pause, go watch it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I got, so I was over at a friend's house on Thursday night and she said, have you watched Adolescence? She's in the biz. She's like, have you watched Adolescence? I was like, no. She was like, it's, She's like it's their baby reindeer this year is like how she sort of.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I agree. But like in terms of how Netflix is thinking like this is how we win the the miniseries category at all the award shows like this is sort of how they're thinking. So she's in like publicity. So that's sort of like how she was characterizing it. I agree. I think this is. way better than Baby Reindeer. But just in terms of like a British phenomena show on Netflix that comes out of nowhere.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
She was like warning me on the Thursday before it dropped on the Friday. And then Friday I get the text from Chris Ryan who's like, Joanna, adolescence. And I was like, oh no. And then I started hearing from a bunch of other people. So here we are. So go watch it if you haven't. If you've already watched it or you are one of those sickos who wants to stay around anyway. I will say this.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
We have a very special emergency crash together pod for you here on a Tuesday. We're here to talk to you about a Netflix series that dropped over the weekend, Adolescence.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I want to say... If you're one of our beloved sickos who likes to listen to us natter at each other without having watched a thing, that is great. We welcome you. I will just want to premise... the framework of the show for you to help you listen to this. Four episodes takes place over. It's 13 months is the time span of these from arrest to the end of the story.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
First episode is the arrest and then the sort of booking of the child, Jamie.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Well, I'm presuming anyone listening now... Oh, we're spoiler gloves off at this point.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
So, episode one is the arrest. Episode two, they go to the school, basically to try to hunt down where the murder weapon is. And by the end of episode one, we have irrefutable proof that this kid has... Donna murder. Episode three is essentially a two hander with this kid and a therapist who was sent in to evaluate him as part of the court case. That's, I think, seven months later.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
So it's seven months into the investigation. And then 13 months is the final episode. And that is the boy's family and how everything is sort of impacting them about a year later is sort of where we leave things. So that's that's just like the basic framework.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
So there's the police station episode, the school episode, the therapist episode and the family episode is sort of how I'm kind of reference it as we talk about it. Yeah. I want to talk about a little bit more about some of the talent behind the show. Please. So Stephen Graham, again, who I love. I was at I was at Pub Trivia on Sunday.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
four episodes for one hour episodes dropped over the weekend we're gonna talk to you about the show we're gonna at the top of this episode if you haven't seen adolescence but we know some of you sickos click on these episodes and listen to them even though you haven't seen the thing so if you haven't seen it at the top we're going to talk about what it is and whether or not rob and i recommend that you watch it and then we'll get in you know and then maybe you decide to press pause go watch it come back and listen for more um
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And at the end of the game, they put up a they just put up like a random movie on the screen. And it was Snatched, which starts with. uh, baby face, Stephen Graham and, and Jason Statham. And I, I got so excited. I know Stephen Graham. I think best. I think the, the role that he did that made the biggest impression on me was I was a big boardwalk empire fan. He played Al Capone on that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And, um, I think I didn't connect him to some of his, uh, work that he had done with, uh, you know, a UK accent. And it was one of those, that actor is an American sort of how I, Remember coming to Stephen Graham, but I'm a huge fan of his. What's your association with Stephen Graham?
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Okay, if we must.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
The polo is popping. Well, and you say they know exactly what they're doing, having this role. He is the co-creator of this show. And something I want to highlight about him is that, and CR was talking to me about this a little bit, like what Stephen Graham has done with, he is much better known in the UK than he is here. He has like an OBE, like he is a fixture in UK film and television.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And what he has done, and this is CR's point, sort of like with his fame and his fame, I would say in the last few years in 2020, he and his wife, who's also an actress and a producer, Hannah Walters co-founded a production company. And so they've been making projects alongside your Venoms and your other things.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And so and he sort of started to amass a kind of stable of actors like Ashley Walters, who plays the lead detective in this. And Aaron Daugherty, who plays the therapist in this, were in this. A Thousand Blows, this like period boxer project that he did also this year with his wife. So and then the director of.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Exactly. The director, Philip Barantini, who directed all the episodes, is best known for directing a film called Boiling Point, which is a one-er. It was based on a short film called Boiling Point, which was a one-er. And then they did a whole feature film and then a TV series called Boiling Point that is set in a kitchen.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
You know, so that episode of The Bear, but make it longer and probably more agitating. Right. But I think, you know, collecting directors that he's worked with before, actors that he likes and works with before. I was watching an interview he gave where he was like, at this point in my career, I just like to surround myself with, like, people who are good at their jobs and pleasant on set.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And, like, that's all I want to do now. And so then this is, like, a passion project of a kind for him. And it was inspired by...
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
him the actor steven graham it's inspired twofold one it's inspired by him the actor steven graham having seen a couple news stories about young men doing horrible crimes violent murders and he was deeply troubled by that and thought that that should be the subject of of a show um but also what it sounds like to me based on some of the interviews that i that i was looking at was um
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
We're going to do all that. Very quickly, I want to mention that this is dropping on a Tuesday. Tomorrow, Wednesday, we will have not only our White Lotus episode five coverage, but Rob and I are doing a live Q&A at noon Pacific lunchtime.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
He was asked to do a one-er project. So first came the idea of we're going to do a project where each episode is one shot.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
then what is the subject matter that we want to pair with that? So it's this idea of like what came first. What came first was this idea of like the hook, which is four episodes, one shot. And I want to talk about the advantages and disadvantages of the one-er concept in a second because I have a lot of complicated thoughts about it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
But I do think it's interesting in this Netflix content world, this idea that like –
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
a studio a streamer comes to you and says hey what do you got that you can turn into a project where each episode is is a one shot yeah it's a you know it's a it's a a content conduit towards storytelling and art i'm not mad about it necessarily it's very pragmatic and practical but i thought that that was sort of an interesting element of how this was put together
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And I think it was really smart to keep it to like four episodes. Yes. You know, it's not a novel idea for the British model to have a four episode series, but it is unusual in American television.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
This episode of the Prestige TV podcast is brought to you by Coffee Mate. Coffee Mate has been searching the globe for flavors that pair perfectly with coffee. So when they heard that the new season of HBO's The White Lotus was set in Thailand, they were inspired to brew up two new flavors, Thai iced coffee and piña colada flavored creamers. They're available for a short time only.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
What kind of story is Mike White interested in telling us? Not like some wild cockamamie, I think a monkey got a gun. That's a me theory.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Or press ccb at spotify.com. Either way. But what story could Mike White weave for us with any of these given deaths? And here are a couple chief things that people wanted us to remember about. OK, Don, our listener, Don and a couple of people.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
But like his his email chiefly was talking about the way that our spoilers for previous seasons of White Lotus, Armand, who dies in season one and Tanya, who dies in season two, were characters who did not have close emotional ties to anyone else on the show. Certainly Greg Gary did not give a shit about Tanya and even Portia was like not invested.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Armand's co-workers liked him, but we didn't explore any of those relationships too closely.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
In addition to Mallory and I are covering Yellow Jackets, Daredevil, The Last of Us trailer, all that sort of stuff over in the house of our feed. So there's a lot happening.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Yeah, just because you go ass-to-mouth doesn't mean that you are like, you know... It's a kind of intimacy, I gotta say. So the fact that the seasons don't end with this plaintive mourning from any of our other characters, right? So if... a Ratliff dies, then we have to grapple with the rest of the Ratliff family mourning.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
If Rick or Chelsea dies, that would be devastating to either Rick or Chelsea, I believe. If one of the fancies dies, I think that would be like maybe a little bit perhaps. So on the one hand, Mike Waite has said this season might be a bit darker than other seasons. So it's possible that he's going to zag in that direction.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
On the other hand, I think that is a useful thing to sort of keep in mind is like, Usually when we go to the airport and sort of see all of our characters, how they're existing after this vacation at the airport, it's not anyone sort of like, dressed in black grief sobbing. That's not how we end a season of White Lotus, usually. So that's something to think about, you know?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I have not watched a single second of paradise.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Some of the listeners are suggesting because of this idea of like, who will we not be sort of like, I mean, actually I was quite devastated that Armand died, but who will we not be like completely. He's a great character.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
And I saw an interview that Jennifer Coolidge gave Variety where she said, quote, I hope they do something terrible to him. So shout out Tanya now and forever. But there is this theory floating around that I think is interesting where... Follow me down this domino path. Belinda finally decides, she's like, that guy did a murder.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
And she, I don't know how one calls Interpol, but she calls Interpol. And Interpol shows up, you know, guns drawn or whatever, to capture Great Gary. But Tim thinks it's the authorities there for him.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
And Rick perhaps thinks it's the authorities... following up on whatever it is that goes down in bangkok so like hence monkey shootout at gmail.com like everyone everyone thinks the the guns are there for them but you know and then and then panic and chaos ensues so i like that i i don't know how belinda's gonna get dinner pole on the horn I don't know.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Is it episode seven? Like that's what I've heard.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
MonkeyShoot.gmail.com if you work for Interpol.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I mentioned this, I think, on the pod with Bill and Mel, but I was looking up Thai extradition laws, mostly because I was like, Why do all these guys feel like they're safe here? What's extradition like in Thailand? Turns out it's not as free and breezy as I thought it would be. It's not the crime shelter that I thought it might be.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
You think I would like, you think I, Joanna would like paradise.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Blend. You really blend, you know? Okay, so here's the question, though. For Tim, you mentioned sort of – OK. So the noose is tightening on Tim. We're downing the lorazepams. Jason Isaac on the official podcast gave this great interview where he was talking about how – on this theme of identity that we've been talking about all season, how like Tim is being stripped of all of the things that he –
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I do. Okay. I trust you because you were the one who was like, Joanna, you're going to hate Landman. And you were right.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
identified as like provider father pillar of community good businessman uh you know uh you know a literal boy scout a son of these of this lineage um you know a a man of notoriety at the club all these things that he had sort of like the club not the club people at the club think uh all these things that he had defined himself as he's being stripped away
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
But is White Lotus a show where there are ever actually consequences for the wealthy or are they inoculated somehow? And so will we come out the other side of this vacation? Tim is so convinced right now here in episode four that. They're going to lose the house. He's going to go to jail for a little time. All this other stuff like that. They're going to be poor.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
None of his kids are equipped to live this life. He has not prepared them for this. His wife is not equipped to live this life. He has failed entirely. Would it make sense on a White Lotus show for this actually to not happen to Tim, for there to be no actual consequences for him at the end of the day, other than this dark week of the soul that he is experiencing in Thailand?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Oh, fingers crossed for zero speeches about that. We can dare to dream. This is maybe best saved for the Severance podcast, but I'll just say it today. We learned a thing. We did a little unboxing experiment on the Severance pod on Friday, and I got some feedback that... Mostly what people saw was my laptop and not, like, the items themselves. So I have a lot to learn about unboxing.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
interesting because uh you know one of our listeners Peter and wrote in about um this idea of a winner of a season of a White Lotus season and this is like a way in which um our beloved boss Bill Simmons likes to talk about um stories and usually that's not how I like to think about it but I think it is interesting that um you know this listener brought up the fact that like Mike White
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
loves a reality show yes was on Survivor went quite far on Survivor did The Amazing Race a couple times we talked before about how this is like sort of like a thinly thinly sheened version of Survivor he always puts Survivor players in every season and stuff like that so like Is he thinking about his show as a story that has winners and losers?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
And I think your mileage may... This listener, Peter, wrote in with who he thought won individual seasons, and I'm actually not sure I agree with all of his takes, but I think your definition of winning may vary at the end of the day.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
But one thing that I always consider losing on a season of White Lotus, and we talked about this a little bit last week, is this idea of the character that I'm rooting for to break free out of something... And then they just don't. And they just sort of like melt back into the world of privilege that we are sort of like – or do not break the cycle. So I bring this up all the time.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
But I'll be in season two who I was like, you're not like your daddy or grandpa. And then at the end of the season, he's at the airport ogling women just like his dad and his grandpa or – Rachel and Shane in season one. And so like the person that I am most have my eye on for this is someone like, and we talked about this before, but someone like Piper who is like, I'm not like my family.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I'm not like my family. And inside of this episode, Vicki says to her, you're just as just mental as I am. Like you're just like me.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I thought, I think that's really interesting. So like, Piper is someone who won't be able to, like, go to the monastery and live a different life than her family has sort of planned for her. Yeah. But – and we got, you know, another, you know, word of encouragement from Amrita about Rick, that Rick is someone who I'm hoping – So usually when I hope, I get disappointed.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
But Rick is someone who I'm hoping can. You know, you are not your story, right? You can break out of this karmic cycle and find something new for yourself. I just think that's, I don't know. Piper, I have no confidence in her and I do apologize to her for that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
That's what it feels like if previous seasons are any indication. I'm always like wondering if Mike White's going to zag and he'd be like, oh, you think you know what White Lotus is? You have no idea.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
That was my first time. Thanks for bearing with. But if you wanted to watch me half-unbox some Severn stuff, we did that on the pod last week. Okay. Quick opening question for you, Rob Mahoney.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
He's a zaggy.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I don't either. But we're going to keep it in the pod. But we're never going to say it again. Okay.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Definitely not true. And also that idea that like, okay. So there's two things, you know, when we're watching middle-aged men with daddy issues and stories, there's like two things.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
There's a lot of that going around. All of it. That there's the energy of... My father is a criminal, and so I'm, you know, okay. To take our guy Walton Goggins, Justified, which is just a show rife with daddy issues. You've got Raylan Givens, a character on Justified who is a U.S. Marshal, and his father is a criminal, and this whole, like,
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
The shadow that his father casts over him on that show and the struggle that he has with like, I'm an upstanding law, but I've got this rage and this darkness inside of me that I think comes from my dad or whatever.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
You said we weren't? Okay. And then you've got boy Crowder, whose daddy was also a criminal. Sorry, his daddy. His daddy. His daddy was also a criminal. Pronounce it correctly, Jo. Thank you. But he has chosen a life of crime. And that's just the show, and it's the best. But for Rick, it's like, okay, I live in shame because my father was good, and I am...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
What was the worst mistake of the episode? Was it my guy-guy talk, leaving the gun out? Or... Was it Belinda straight up slow-mo mean mugging a guy she knows?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
can't go to Australia for some reason I'm something of a of a scoundrel yeah and so the the like how freeing would it be to not live under the weight of this like fictional saint who you think was your father and you have failed to live up to um the Vader comp I just wanted I mean you and I were in on the Vader theory I can't believe we're here though I can't believe this is what seems to be happening
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
But I think you and I agree that Jim Hollinger is probably Rick's dad. And I just want to bust a theory.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Okay. One that I've seen go on Reddit and it reminds me of a conversation we had on Friday about severance. I really need people to, like, have a better understanding of how old people are. Because a lot of people are like, could Greg Gary be Rick's dad? John Grace is 67 and Walt Goggins is 53. So I just need you guys all to remember that. Technically, 14-year-old dad, I don't know.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Anyway, they're of the same generation. And people, I think, are really desperate to understand why Greg Gary is here in such close proximity to a White Lotus. And so they're spinning all these theories about how he was involved somehow in the Lamb deal with the Hollanders and stuff like that. I don't know that I agree with that because I feel like if he had done all that,
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Though he was part of the Land Management Bureau. But if he had done all that, would he need Tanya's money? Like, wouldn't he have money? So I don't actually think that Grey Gary is connected to any of that, personally. But above all else, I do not believe... that these two men who are quite close in age are father and son.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Rick also very much not wanting to talk to anyone.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
One has a Chelsea and one has a Chloe, and those are two different things entirely.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Did a murder. Which are you picking?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
A reason I don't think that Rick is inside of the Greg Gary story necessarily is because Greg Gary is currently hunting Belinda. And Saxon, you know, like he's got like multiple people that he's sort of like predatorily staring at at dinner.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Just shifted. Yes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
There's no connection whatsoever. I've never been on any. I think that's true. I don't think any boat I've ever been on would qualify as a yacht.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
No. Well, okay. Yes and no. I love the ocean. It's like my favorite thing in the whole world. I get tremendously seasick. A woman of the beach. Yeah. A woman of the cliffs. I love to look out at an ocean. The rocky cliffs. Yeah. A great Northern California angry ocean. Love that. Don't want to be on it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
You know, or Victoria Ratliff just sort of waving in with a duvet. Who's to say? We'll come back to Vicky's little ocean walk in a second. But on the Jim Hollinger front, we got a really interesting email that sent me a Googling from a listener, Gower. This is what I'm calling the historical comp section. He said, quote, when I hear Jim Hollinger, I keep hearing to myself Jim Thompson.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I've been to Thailand and Bangkok many times and have visited the Jim Thompson house. I've also been to Koh Samui on a day boat trip. So I'm fascinated with it all. I figured one white imperialist Jim is as good as any other Jim. Of course, I know nothing about Thompson and too lazy to do the work. Maybe there's something there you might elucidate us on or maybe it's nothing. Just a thought.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I did Google Jim Thompson because I had never heard of this person.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Okay, here's a life goal, perhaps. It's one thing to have a Wikipedia page about yourself, right? The Rob Mahoney Wikipedia page.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I don't have one. I don't need one.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
So for the love of coffee, go try them now. Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
But you're NBA podcaster Rob Mahoney.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
But what if Rob Mahoney death had its own special page? Oh, wow. Not just a section.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Its own actual page. Wow. And this is the legacy of Jim Thompson, who was a sort of tie silk magnet who sort of Made big splashes inside of the industry, probably through shady business work in Thailand, was connected to a lot of famous people and a lot of government officials. And then he straight up disappeared and nobody. And to this day, they have not solved his death.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
And there's all these theories about what happened. The disappearance of Jim Thompson. And so, you know, was he murdered by the government? Was he – did he disappear himself because he was embroiled in something and wanted to vanish? All these things. I read all these articles about – there have been documentaries about what happened to Jim Thompson. And the truth is they don't know.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
And probably he just like fell down somewhere and they never found his body. He went out for a walk and he never came back.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
The prevailing theory is that he fell over and that they just never found it. It just got swallowed by Thailand itself. And that's poetic in its own sense. But I kind of like this idea that, you know, sort of this infamous unsolved mystery of Thailand is something that might inspire Mike White to do the Jim Hollinger as a disappeared version of Rick's dad sort of story.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I can't defend it. I'm not inclined to. Okay. However, personally, where are you on Muka and Gaitak?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I think that's really interesting. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Right.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Elsewhere on the historical comp section, our listener Rachel wrote in about a North Carolinian Ponzi scheme.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
We're going to say North Carolinian.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I just really like the way that Jason Isaacs says North Carolinian. I don't know if it's accurate. That's for everyone else.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Pam before Lorazza Pam. That's what I have to say. I love Pam. She's the best. We did get an email from a listener who was like, why haven't you commented on how many Aussies there are on the show? And I'm just like...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Also, I just having done like a smidge of backpacking around the world, I will say Aussies are like the most well-traveled people I've ever met. And so I just always expect to find Aussies wherever I go in the world. And they're the best. But Rachel wrote in to let us know that there was a guy and probably named Rick Siskey.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
who operated a sort of the most infamous North Carolinian Ponzi scheme and house repossessed, all that sort of stuff, and did in fact kill himself rather than face the consequences of his own actions. Anything you want to say about the looming full moon party? We get this incredible closing shot of the boat headed towards the massive full moon. We get a really cool remix.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
It's called the full moon remix of the theme song you can find on YouTube. That was dope. It's really vibey. Anything you want to say about this or what you're hoping from it or anything you've learned about it?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Now that you've dangled the prospect of Fabian at the full moon party in front of me. This is what I'm saying. I just got in, genuinely. I will say this. MonkeyShootout at gmail.com and PressTV at Spotify.com, those inboxes have been full of people's experience going to Thailand. Some of these things... Rob and I will say need not be shared with us.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
And, um, but you guys sure have felt, uh, fine about sharing them. Um, but some other things are just like fun travelogue experiences. And we got emails from a lot of people who've been to the full moon party and just talked about like how bonkers and bananas it is and how fun it is. And, um, just like neon painted people and mushroom smoothies and like all this sort of stuff like that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
So, uh, I'm ready for the bacchanalia to ensue next week. Speaking of Buccaneer, you want to talk about the... How would you, Rob Mahoney, respond? Were you surrounded by children with super smokers in the streets of Thailand?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I wrote down travelers who hate actually well traveling about them. You know what I mean? It's just sort of like they do not actually want any kind of experience.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
But then they did and they didn't want that because – Well, no. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
The olds. Can't have the olds. Yeah. For like both Victoria on the boat, having to talk to people she didn't want to talk to. What does she say to Saxon Lockman? Like, you want to stay longer on that boat? Great stuff.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
It's true.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I think she would have preferred the second round of the boat trip, but. Probably not once they get to the full moon party, but Victoria at the full moon party.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Absolutely. What can she replace her lorazepam with? You know what I mean?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
But Victoria and Jacqueline both have this just like really brittle shell, like this really thin shell that can so easily be broken of privilege. Just sort of Jacqueline is so used to... You think about all this all the time when you think about like extremely successful people in like, let's say Los Angeles, where I currently am.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
There's a way in which you were just surrounded and inoculated from like actual real life. And, you know... On the official pod, they were talking about the fact that like maybe Jacqueline has just simply not seen loose skin in the last decade because of like the life she lives in Hollywood.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
But yeah, this idea of just sort of like I float through life in this bubble of privilege that I've created for myself via fame or money or whatever it is and how soft and unprepared they are for any kind of challenge to that, which I think is interesting.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Okay, so date, come watch me dance. She looks so beautiful and cute in her dancing regalia.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Because Laurie and Kate were like, we're fine with this pool.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
We got our books. We got our drinks. Like, who cares? Yeah. Jacqueline is really interesting. I think...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
that is it's all a powder keg right um but especially Jacqueline when when we met her and they go to the villa I mean we knew it was bullshit from the start when they get to the villa and she's talking to Kate and Lori uh in the first episode she's like do you like your rooms we can take I would sleep in a tree I don't really care I'm not fussy I'm fine like with whatever I'm just happy to be here I don't need any pampering I'm so I'm such a cool girl um
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
And then to see her shriek and run from water guns was like deeply satisfying, honestly.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Do you agree with the Internet that seems to think that Valentin has set them up for that, that he was like, oh, this will fuck with them?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I don't know, payback for being ordered around? Like, bossed around, perhaps?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I think he was more just like, I gotta go find my criminal cohorts so I can keep these women entertained.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Too hot, too cold. Party with some criminals just right, perhaps.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Okay. They definitely didn't rob the boutique in a previous episode? No chance. No chance. Okay. All right.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
We have to see it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I lived with a Ukrainian whose name was Alexander, who went by Sasha. And his friend was Alexander, who went by Kusha, I think it was. He had four friends named Alexander. They were all named Alexander or Alexei or something like that. Or Igor or Vlad or whatever. Okay. Welcome to a segment I'm calling Joanna Justifies Her English Degree.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
A.K.A. Rob. Well, actually, one of these books is nonfiction. Rob does not like fiction. Let's see how he does with some nonfiction.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Let's talk about what some books that people are reading. Belinda is reading a book. that I believe Reddit has misidentified and I have correctly identified, but this is what Reddit- You're well-actuallying the well-actualiers. They're very close. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Reddit thinks this book that Belinda is reading at her like sort of private pool right before she does some Googling is a book called Surrounded by Narcissists, colon, How to Effectively Recognize, Avoid, and Defend Yourself Against Toxic People, parentheses, and Not Lose Your Mind, bracket, the Surrounded by Idiots series, end bracket, by Thomas Erickson.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Which sounds like a hilarious great book to put into Belinda's hands. This is a white this is that book is a white cover with these sort of like colored circles in the front.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
What I think she's actually reading is Surrounded by Psychopaths, How to Protect Yourself from Being Manipulated and Exploited in Business, Parentheses, and in Life, the Surrounded by Idiots series by Thomas Erickson. It is the same cover, but it is black, not white. And so I think it is actually another book in the Surrounded by Idiots series.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
But Belinda reading Surrounded by Psychopaths, how to protect yourself from being manipulated and exploited in business is exactly what we think Belinda might read after her whole Tanya experience, right? Absolutely. And also Surrounded by Psychopaths. Hmm. Is Greg Gary a psychopath? Should I go Google him? All of that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
That being said, I think everyone at the White Lotus could do with reading Surrounded by Narcissists. I say that without having read any of these books.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Yeah, the Surrounded by Idiots series does not seem like one I really want to... Thomas Erickson seems like a real... smug piece of shit but um you know any inoculation so do many people at the white lotus in fairness Any inoculation we can do against narcissists or psychopaths, we want to do. Okay.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
It was. Anything that you nonfiction... You don't read self-help, though.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Not my genre. You like history? What are we... Sports biography? Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Oh, John McPhee. Okay.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Yeah, yeah. All right. All right. Lachlan is reading a book called Hunger by Newt Homsen. A pro-Nazi guy. Cool story. Great. Cool. Very cool.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Oh, yeah, that's why he's reading a book. I was like, why is Lockie reading a book? Because they took his iPad. Great point. Okay. And actually, I have to wonder if this is perhaps Piper's book, because not that Piper would read a pro-Nazi book. The book isn't pro-Nazi, just the piece of shit author is.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
But it just does not seem like something a high school senior would have lying around on vacation. But anyway. Okay. Mm-hmm.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
um in terms of how we can apply this to Lachlan if if that's how intentional they're being with the books which I feel like they usually are on White Lotus um just this idea of like the outer shell of respectability and the darkness that lies within like is there I mean I don't know how you feel about close close uh close magic because of magic
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Is there a darker side lurking inside of the shell of respectability that is Lachlan Ratliff? What do you think?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I love magicians. I'm, I'm pro a magician. I don't have like a spicy magician take. Um, Last but not least, back to Victoria and her duvet on wading into the ocean. Our listener Lauren wrote in about a book that most people read in high school, Kate Chapin's Awakening. It's a story, a short story. And this is what Lauren wrote.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Lauren wrote, the main character in that book taking her own life at the end. Sorry, spoilers for The Awakening. taking her own life at the end by walking out in the sea after experiencing quote an awakening will posey's character experience a similar awakening once her lorazepam runs out and she wakes up to her husband's situation will the result be similarly tragic
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Now, again, I don't think that like we're going to see Victoria standing on the edge of the ocean in like episode three and then literally walk into the ocean at the end of this season. That all feels a bit too telegraphed for what a White Lotus season usually likes to do.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
But I think, you know, in terms of metaphorical oceans, metaphorical drowning, that's certainly something that could be on the cards. Any thoughts about that?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
because that's been the vibe all season.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I gotta say, Rob, I really, I love podcasting with old people at The Ringer, but the way that you say, like, group ordeal in this, like, true sort of Texas gentlemanly fashion. It is. It's a hootenanny. It's a true hootenanny, Jo. Versus the way that Molly Rubin talks about things is, like, it's pretty delightful. Yes, some group ordeal feels like it could vary.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
The actors who play Mook and Guy Talk were, you know, the pair they featured in the after episode interview on HBO this week. And Lalisa, who plays Mook, was talking about how ambitious she is, how she wants more. She wants a bigger life. She wants a better life. She wants to leave. She wants to travel. Guy talks like happy to be incompetent at my job here at the White Lotus forever.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
We're just like, yeah, you're right, one party drug away. Anything else you want to talk about?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Can I say one thing on the – that's a great shout. Can I say one thing on the Piper front? Sarah Catherine Hook, who plays Piper, said that this was her favorite episode of the season.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Yeah. And I was just like really surprised by that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
um because she has a great scene with tim on the boat i really like that scene and something that jason isaacs uh talks about on the official pod was that like piper was definitely tim's favorite kid and that he like his son we got that from the gentle caress of her face as he's breathing like a dying rhinoceros like it's it's a weird vibe you know whatever anyway
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
uh that she's a daddy's girl that he loves her most of all all this sort of stuff like that but like if that's sarah's like i don't know i don't know why maybe she was like it was just fun to be on the boat or whatever or it was fun to be around everyone but i was like i would i hope piper has like a bit more of an exciting episode than this one on the cards or is her vibe just like sort of subdued for the rest of the season you know i don't know
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
We've talked about a wet bump on this pod before, right?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Okay. It's usually for background actors. But this idea that if you do a scene and you get wet during that scene, you get a little bit extra money. It's called a wet bump.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Yeah. I talked about it a lot when I did the podcast on Lost. We talked about the wet bump a lot because they are constantly... Soaked on that show.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Yeah, get your wet bump.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Get your wet bump. All right. Belinda's Googling Tanya. Freeze frame Mahoney strikes again. Was prepared for my question when I texted it to you earlier today. They're making a Tanya biopic.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
This is my... Okay, so my question was, like, earlier, I was thinking, if they kill Greg Gary, then that's the end of the Tanya-Greg-Belinda sort of saga, right? Maybe. But season four, a la Scream 3... Scream 2?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
It's about a movie about the victim of an earlier season. Then we keep Tanya's spirit alive.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
They're making a Tanya Paya pick. Who plays her? Rob Mahoney.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Okay.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
And so that has me a little concerned. Not that like he will rage out in any kind of way. But something Mal has been talking about in the pod with Bill from the start is like her concern that he will try to prove himself to her in some way that might go bad. Or alternatively, she just simply won't.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Wonderful.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
That is such a wonderful roster. And bless your heart for picking age-appropriate actresses. Here's what I think is going to happen. Oh, sorry.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Ariana Grande. Ariana Grande, who does a killer Jennifer Coolidge impression, famously. Yeah, true.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
uh gets a taste of of that oscar buzz for wicked and it's like i'm gonna go full oscar i'm gonna play this doomed heiress uh and do a whole impression and she's gonna be like fully 20 years younger 30 years younger perhaps than she actually is but that's hollywood baby that's hollywood baby so she could at least be part of the origin story like the prologue right oh sure sure the flashbacks all the flashback sequences at minimum like maybe it's just called young tanya you know honestly
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Me Tanya. Me comma Tanya.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Oh, it's like McBain. Okay. Last but not least. And this is a game only for Rob Mahoney because it has unfortunately been spoiled for me. Rob and I want to issue, I guess, a very mild spoiler warning. This isn't, I don't think, actually a spoiler, but if you are like, hot, hot, hot, spoiler averse, you can bail out of the pod now.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
We can thank Donnie Beecham, John Richter, and Justin Sales for their work on the pod, so you make sure to hear that acknowledgement and then you can peace out. But we're about to talk about something that is not like a plot point from an upcoming episode, but something that is sort of out there in the air and we want to talk about it. So, you've been warned.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
A thing that happens on White Lotus, Rob, is that like midway through the season, often a new character, a new actor enters the mix. Tom Hollander in season two, Molly Shannon in season one. In an article in USA Today, it was revealed that a big guest star is coming on the show. We will see them in the next episode, episode five. And USA Today revealed that it is an Oscar winning performer.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
No, not gendered. Actor or actress. Oscar winning... Oscar winner. Next episode. And HBO has kept a lid on who this is. They have not... They asked press who had screeners to not talk about it. Stuff like that. So this is all the information we have. Episode 5. Oscar winner. So Rob Mahoney.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
We've already had... Kiwi Kwan, but that's not who we're talking about. We had a Laura Dern voice cameo in a previous season. Which Oscar winner do you think is coming to White Lotus next and which role do you guess or would you like to see them play?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
It's not the end of the world, but she simply won't pick him in the end because he's not what she's looking for. She's looking for someone, you know, some beefy bodyguard who can take her around the world. So I am, as ever, rooting for Guy Talk.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Oh, yes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Okay. Eddie Redmayne with the party drugs at the full moon.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
That's great. All right. That is my attempt at a neutral response to your guesses, but I enjoyed all of them equally as Severance would want me to. Mm-hmm. We'll be back later this week with Severance for sure. The pit question mark when we don't know, but we are recording an episode this week about the pit. So you can either stop or actually start your emails. Press GTV at Spotify dot com.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Press GTV at Spotify dot com with your pit thoughts. We want to hear them. Your pit thoughts.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
You know, especially if you're David Jacoby who sent us, I don't know, a hundred text messages about the pit. So keep them coming. Jacoby, you're the best. Please. Sovereign's emails, pineapplebobbing at gmail.com. Uh, if you guys are on the edge of your seats about it, the AirPods did go to a good home. Our hardworking video producer, John Richter got the AirPods to give to his wife.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
So they went to a good, good home. Um, and, um, that's it. Rob Mahoney, you're the best. And I'll see you two more times. But then after that, I'll see you at the full moon party. Okay. Bye. Bye.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I feel very disappointed in him that he left the gun out. But to go back to your point, Golden Hour...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
mook golden hour lalisa in the with the flowers and the i mean who among us the distraction is very understandable but just just put it back in the safe put it back in the box seriously the bare minimum carry it with you i don't care all right so i have like a kind of a big picture question to start with here we are the midway point of the season i've been hearing a It's interesting.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Covering both Severance and White Lotus right now, I really feel like we're at this crux of people have forgotten how to watch television week to week. They sure have. And I feel like people misremember the cadence of previous seasons of White Lotus. And on Severance, that's a different thing we could talk about on the Severance pod.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
But I feel like people are used to maybe watching Severance season one as a binge. And so sort of some of the peaks and valleys of the season. of the plot and the rhythms are, are flummoxing people, but I've heard from plenty of people that they think this season of white Lotus is boring. Yeah. I think season four is sort of, we're ramping up, you know, we're headed towards a full moon party.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
We're here today to talk to you about season three, episode four of White Lotus, Hide or Seek. There's a lot going on on the Prestige feed this week because you and I are doing three whole ass entire Prestige episodes together this week. Rob, what are we covering?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Like I think, I think we're headed towards excitement, but I think, do you think this season is measurably different from any of the previous seasons of white Lotus and, or, or just simply, and are you having a good time with it?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Yeah, it always seems like we I just I remember this from previous seasons that it's like it's a character study show. Right. It's a comedy of manners kind of show.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
with the like a fake mustache on it that makes it a sort of mystery show it's not really what it is but it's like part of the part of the hook uh to get people watching but but it's always been this kind of slow burn and i think if you go back and re-watch or reconsider previous seasons you'll see similar things that being said if people aren't vibing this season that's fine that's your prerogative i'm not here to change your mind i just think it's you know
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
That is completely fair. I want to do a quick section that I'm calling the well actually section, which is just people sort of correcting or weighing in on things. And to be clear, I'm not saying I don't like these emails. If it's a well actually email I don't like, I simply won't be reading it. But on this sort of like, is that...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
jason isaacs and all of his natural splendor or not we did get several emails about this rob this is not what we're here to do we don't need to dwell on this but i will just say no i think we do because i woke up monday morning i you know i just had a very normal one for myself this is not my fault rob you know this is not my fault
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I just want to read my favorite one, which simply reads this. You guys, ellipses, British men are almost always uncut. It's not his. Love, comma, a gay man. So that's how our listener signed his email. That's how I will read it out. I sent that evidence to our pal Mallory Rubin.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
And her counter is that Jason Isaacs, the actor, is Jewish. So no matter what, he might be circumcised anyway. That being said... Bill Simmons has told Mallory and me he has the straight dish on this, which he will be revealing on our Episode 5 podcast. He hasn't told us yet. I don't know the answer. But Bill has got it straight from the, not the source, but like a source. And he knows.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
So the answer will come on the Episode 5 Instant Reaction pod with Bill Simmons.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Stay tuned.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
A Jason approved item. Okay. In regards to the dry, Tim Ratliff just dry necking some pills, which perturbed me. We had several people write in, a concerning amount of people perhaps, to let us know that lorazepam is sweet and will just dissolve on your tongue. Yeah. David wrote, clearly you've never been strung out on Ativan. It dissolves in your mouth without any taste at all.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
So thanks, David, and all the other people who wrote in about this. Now we know.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Absolutely.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
A lorazepod? Is that what you want to do?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I think that we should do the White Lotus finale as a lorazepod. I think that sounds delightful to me. All right. And then on the lorazepam front, we got a lot of emails about lorazepam withdrawals and how nasty and sort of instantaneous they are. And the fact that, you know, we were kind of joking a bit about like, okay, we've got
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Larazapam Tim, or Larazatim, as some people are calling him on the internet. Great stuff. Love that for us as TV consumers. Vicky...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
lorazepam withdrawal vicky what's gonna happen there i don't think that mike white is intent on giving us like a harrowing no um dt's uh episode of white lotus but i will just list some early withdrawal symptoms of lorazepam a highly addictive drug that you should never go cold turkey on this has been your psa increased anxiety irritability insomnia sweating tremors
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
That's all stuff that I feel like because we're only that's like one to three days. We're only at the White Lotus for like three more days. So I feel like all of that is something that Parker Posey is completely capable of giving us without like us sending us down into a dark, dark spiral of something.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Well, I mean, I want to talk about that a little bit later, a little bit more. But there's a difference between what they are exposed to on the yacht and the sort of, like, I'm just eating melon all day vibes of her existence at the White Lotus. Well, quite, yes. You know? So I think that, like...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
In addition, of course, Bill and Mallory and I are covering White Lotus on Sunday nights immediately after the episode ends. You can catch that on YouTube or on Spotify or listen to it on a podcast app of your choice. A lot going on on the Prestige feed this week.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
There was way less friction for her waiting back at the resort in terms of social anxiety and that sort of stuff.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Just to get her massage. That's what I'm saying.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I can't believe she made it through that yacht ride. I was feeling for her. I, like... There are some looks that Parker Posey gives in this episode that are just like instant meme worthy. Like move over Leslie Bibb, squint smile face. Some of these Parker Posey faces are making their rounds.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
And then kind of trying to settle her face and be like, this is fine. I do that. That's what my face does, I've been told quite often.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Do you want to do a little... killing theory roundup we got we got the tenor of the emails right now around sort of like who who could have died who did the killing who is dead at the end of the season are the exact kind that I like where they're going back to previous seasons and they're like let's look at what usually happens on a white lotus here's the theory
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
This episode of the Prestige TV podcast is brought to you by Coffee Mate. Coffee Mate has been searching the globe for flavors that pair perfectly with coffee. So when they heard that the new season of HBO's The White Lotus was set in Thailand, they were inspired to brew up two new flavors, Thai iced coffee and piña colada flavored creamers. They're available for a short time only.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Exciting times for Piper Ratliff. I'm sure everything will go perfectly well for her. Saxon mentions that they are invited on Greg Gary's boat. We'll talk about that a little bit more in a second for this, what he calls a, this full moon, big holiday, which is a huge holiday in Thailand. Every full moon they celebrate with this like massive beach party in the Island.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
That's one over from where the white Lotus is being filmed. And yeah, The description that I found was more than 12 powerful sound systems turn the 800-meter beach into possibly the most popular open-air nightclub in the world once a month. Once a month is a heavy investment for putting on the world's biggest beach rave, but we're doing it every month. Any hopes or dreams for the full moon party?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
If you're Mike White and you're like, we're going to set a season in Thailand, And once a month they have the world's biggest beach rave on this island. How do you, especially since as we've heard over and over again that Mike White, the season came to Mike White in like a fever drug dream when he was in the hospital. So how can you not say like, let's go to a Thai beach rave?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Is this something you're excited for in a future episode of White Lotus?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
But do you think Belinda knows that you're talking about Belinda and our guy Greg Gary? Of course. Not my guy, your guy. Not my guy.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
piper at a rave chelsea at a rave i feel like i know exactly what that's like and i love that for her she was born in a rave life's a rave for chelsea absolutely um okay to wrap up the ratliffs as as well as we can inside of their isolated storyline tim ratliff let's go back to lorazepam tim uh we mentioned last week that we've gotten several emails about this concept of like family annihilator
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Which you and I both were like, we don't want it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Does it? A little bit.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Chloe's guy, Greg Gary. Do you think Belinda knows about what happened to Tonya?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
What about the idea of Lorazepam Tim as the body in the water that Zion found? Whether or not that body in the water is dead, we actually don't know. It's true. Certainly floating as if dead, but not confirmed dead necessarily. So could that be Lorazepam Tim having taken a stumble from the outdoor shower into the outdoor pond?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Who is he? Is Tim top of your list? Who's top of your list for like who the body is? Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
All right, Tim, I'm not rooting for you because you seem like you've done some shitty things. And in general, I don't root for rich people who have embezzled money. But, you know, life is long. You didn't vote for Trump, though, did you? Are we really going to talk about Trump tonight? Let's talk about the, the fancies, the blonde ball. Okay. I want to ask you how you feel.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I can't remember if Mal, Bill and I got into like the specifics of this. We talked about this a little bit, but like, I'm really curious about Mike White's decision to like put Trump into this season. Cause of course, last season we got the voter versus non-voter vote.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Yeah. Yeah. I feel like if if I let me say this, if I'm Melinda and I know what happened to Tanya.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
conversation um in the in the two couples and that was very like sort of like trump not trump coded for sure way but to put trump's name in there again making this season not knowing how the election was gonna pan out how do you how do you feel about that as a choice
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I am not approaching Greg Gary. No, that's not happening.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Eyes full squints. Oh my gosh. It's so good. Smile, no teeth. Very good stuff from Leslie Bibb. Rob, as a Texan, how do you feel about Texas being invoked in this particular way? Fair.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I know.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
you know, I have spent a lot of, I go to Austin a couple of times every year. I love, but I don't, I've never lived in Austin. I'm a mere visitor. So I'm not like trying to make any, uh, broads. Well, maybe I am, but anyway, Joe, go off, say what you've got to say. I love Austin. I love Austin.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I will say I've had the most shocking things that have ever been said to me by a Lyft driver have been said to me by a Lyft driver in Austin.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Just racial stuff. I think I look like I might be receptive to someone saying things that I am not receptive to.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Absolutely. Shout out to a couple of our listeners who wrote in to let us know that, you know, we talked about the voice cameo in episode two. The voice cameo in this episode as the Ratliff lawyer is the podcaster Scott Galloway. He has a really charming anecdote on his own podcast about how Jason Isaacs came over to his house to give him acting lessons and he didn't know anything.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
feels great it's like how people would never offer me drugs because they think i look like a dark uh you know it's just like it's just my life um something that the official podcast brought up that i thought was really interesting is the way that they transitioned inside of this conversation from um talking about religion yeah to talking about trumpism yes and this idea of trumpism as a
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
a kind of religion, a kind of belief system in a way that previous political movements in America have not quite felt as
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
you know cult like is one way to describe it or however you want to describe it but like um this idea of like um the the figure the figure that we follow sort of idea of trumpism and um another thing that i thought was really interesting that uh gia tolentino brought up on the um official podcast is this idea of like when we first meet the blonde blob as as they are described by mike white
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
laurie says it's like looking in a mirror which of course is something that like jacqueline doesn't love to hear from laurie by the way but like um how how mike white really wanted to make it seem like these women are not that different and in so many ways they aren't that different even though we've we've dialed in on certain things that they either share don't share we've got two women who are moms versus a woman who is not a mom or we've got two women who have invested a
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
plastic surgery and stuff like that versus a woman who maybe hasn't woman women who have focused on the career versus not all this sort of stuff so like these various little differences what's the biggest wedge you can drive is it trumpism is it something else um but then at the end of the day how actually similar they are and how interesting i think that is inside of this sort of trump conversation of like
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Lori and Jacqueline are like, oh no, Kate is so different from us. We did not realize how different she is. And then the question is actually how different is a white privileged woman who votes for Trump versus a white privileged woman who doesn't vote for Trump inside of this context? I think that's the question the show is asking.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I think what I have my eye on most inside of this group in terms of things I'm worried about or suspicious about. Yeah. Is Jacqueline has had a few speeches now that seem very much like a I'm a girl's girl kind of speech, like talking about the patriarchal nature of religion or that and the other thing.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Yeah. Yeah. I don't trust that Jacqueline Lemon is a girl's girl at the end of the day. I do not think that that is her energy at all. And I'm worried about the way in which she's pushing Valentina on this story. And I'm worried about how that is all going to shake out at the end of the day.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
That it was Jason Isaacs or who Jason Isaacs was. It was just like this handsome man came to his house to give him acting lessons. And then he found out it was Lucius Malfoy. But anyway, he got cast because the producers were a fan of him, a fan of his voice. Then he took some swings at this. And they're like, oh, no, podcasters are not the same as actors.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
100%.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Girl, Carrie Coon.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Will you tell me, Rob, given that, like, tell me a little bit more about the way in which the internet exploded when they thought Carrie Coon might be on the table for them.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Interesting.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Oh, nice. Carrie knows how to play social media, I gotta say. It's true. I love her. Wong Goggins. I already said on the pod with Bella and Mal how excited I was for Grifter Goggins to enter the chat here. Tell me how you felt for Rick to... step out of the doom and gloom into the con man persona that we are so used to seeing Walton Goggins. What did that do for you personally, Rob Mahoney?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
And then they got him the Jason Isaacs acting boot camp package. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Something, you know, Walton Goggins and Amy Liu would have been doing a lot of interviews around this episode. This seems to be the, like, HBO's, like, this is the Rick and Chelsea episode. You know, I guess because they go to the Snake Show, etc. And they've been talking a lot about, like, sort of the background of Rick and Chelsea.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Goggins has said that they've been together for, like, three years. You know, Amy Liu has said she genuinely believes they're actually soulmates. And that there is this idea that their relationship has not always been this. that this is a very different phase of Rick's life.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
That he is having, I think the way that Goggins put it was like a midlife crisis. And, um, you know, so, so the idea that, that, um, Chelsea's like, come on, what are you doing? Snap out of it. Let's have fun. Is not just like her sort of beating her head against a wall.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Like that there is a version of Rick that she has traveled with before that has been very different from the Rick that she's experiencing at the white Lotus here. And so, um, I like knowing that because I'm just like, girl, what are we doing here?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
But if this is like an unusual moment in the life of a partner who has been matching her energy, if not quite exactly her level of energy, like who could, they're like nuclear power plants that cannot produce that much energy.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Scott's been busy knowing a lot about a lot of other things.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I think it's what Chelsea has always wanted from him, which is just sort of like, I see you, you need me. I'm going to be that for you. But something that Amy Lou Wood said on the official podcast that like really kind of blew my mind. She was like, she keeps accusing Rick of being secretive and walled off. You know, all, all this stuff is focused on Rick and what he's hiding.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
She's like, but we actually know so much about Rick and we don't know anything about Chelsea.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
She's just like, she has sort of successfully hidden her, Her life behind this like very bubbly, outgoing, not persona, because I do think that's actually who she is, but just sort of like the way she moves through the world. She's asking other people about themselves and she's got this insatiable curiosity, which means she doesn't ever have to talk about herself.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Which is really interesting.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
And then she made it to dinner. Yeah. I mean, no problem. If it were me, I would simply not be leaving the room.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
The dinner would be coming to me. Bill very, very, I think, correctly identified me as someone who seems like they should know things about astrology.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
We contain multitudes, Rob Mahoney.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
None of it's true. Do you know anything about astrology, Rob Mahoney?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
So maybe you'll surprise us.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
What is your sign?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Cancer. I don't know. I'm going to say that like that means something, but I just nod.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Thanks so much for mentioning that. Speaking of emails we got and monkey shootouts, we had a couple emails about Sitala's outfit at breakfast that she's wearing. It's this sort of tan button-down, sort of loose-fitting thing with this black...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
So for the love of coffee, go try them now. Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV Podcast Feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
what looks to be almost like an ink spot uh or some people said they thought it looked like a large bullet hole or one of our listeners dave uh pointed out to me rightly so that i would know about this and i do uh in pirate culture the black spot means you're marked for death
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
uh you receive the black spot it means uh death is coming for you so i'm glad you could bring the pirate expertise you know you may have missed the mark on astrology but no racism rants no but pirate pirate i do have it and uh yeah So the black spot on Sitala, would that be a satisfying death for you this season? Potentially. Yeah?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
do you have a theater kid background no of course not yeah absolutely not but um yeah that's you are good at basketball and i am not we all have our talents okay um We already talked about the dreams. This is the name of the episode. We open with Victoria Ratliff's dream.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
That was really interesting when they were at the snake show, among other things.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Absolutely not.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Absolutely not. But the guy running the snake show who it was like is like a local guy who runs snake shows. I mean, he's a fucking pro.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Absolutely not. He mentions that the Python can kill a big animal. And I think we mentioned this before, this idea that in some of the opening credit images, we've seen sort of a smaller animal taking on a predator. I think specifically I would say in like the Chelsea, the Amy Lou Wood Chelsea title card.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
So like this idea that is that we've had these predators, if you want to say Rick at breakfast or Saxon in the pool or, you know, Tim Ratliff in life or Gary doing whatever it is he's doing. Yeah. Jacqueline Lemon on the on the on the hunt for Valentin, whatever it is like.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
um but are we not paying enough attention to you know the smaller threats who could uh take something on something worth thinking about speaking of smaller threats time for our weekly nice guy talk uh check-in with uh with rob mahoney where are you yeah i just want to read a list of what guy talk was up to this episode okay
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Little Turkey wants to be a rooster?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I hate it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
well yes listen i'm not saying he deserved a promotion i don't think he should be a hollander bodyguard because i you'd be very bad at it i don't i think he'd be bad at it i don't want that for him um but i i just okay we got we got an email from our listener hank and i think it's it's a it's a good perspective to have whether or not you're right i actually don't know if you're gonna be right at the end of the day and i'm gonna look like an asshole defending guy talk i have no idea this girl can't even hang out with her friends without getting cornered by this guy and
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I want to talk to you about this concept of the collective unconscious, which is what Piper and Vicky are talking about when they're talking about the dreams, or mostly Piper is talking about. Any thoughts or feelings on the collective unconscious?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Oh, my God. Whatever.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Okay. You might be right. And I will look like an asshole. And that's a reality that I'm willing to accept. I happen to believe that the Mook and Guy Talk story is very sweet. And I think there's a way in which Mike White is actually, like,
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
kind of a romantic in addition to being all these other things obviously we're rooting for Chelsea and Rick to figure it out but our listener Hank wrote in just to sort of put some Hank who says he's from sort of a similarly like his family's from a similarly like non-urban small Southeast Asian village environment
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
uh he said where everyone is locally employed service worker can tend to not be a farmer or hard laborer the still pervasive historical context of parents approving matches and stable income being quite enough for a satisfactory marriage shouldn't be discounted as just quote nice guy vibes whether or not mook is looking for an exotic baddie a la season two's portia is separate from this context it could simply be mike white's own creative liberty and i dare say personal injection into an otherwise ho-hum but stable lifestyle just giving a perspective as someone's whose ancestral roots are part of that world
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
So this idea that like the conversation that Mook and Guy Tuck had at lunch in a previous episode where he was like talking about his mom and they've known each other forever.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Yeah. And it's like on the one hand, from our sort of 2025 American perspective, we're like, is this the move? But, you know, perhaps in the environment that they live in, that is the move, you know, so.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I don't think she jumped at it. I just don't think she said hard no. No.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Okay. We also saw him leave an offering of bananas at a shrine. Yeah. And I thought that was very cool. The four-headed god. Yeah. Which is called The Erewhon Shrine, which has nothing to do with really expensive smoothies that you can get in LA. Okay. Belinda and Porchai. Yes. Speaking of love stories to believe in. Hello. How are you feeling about this?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Priceless, honestly.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
And then he like sort of, you know, has this awkward little goodbye with her. Pornchai has had too much, aka like one drink. One beer. Too much for him. And then Belinda hears something in her villa. Is that what we were meant to believe? Yeah. Not sees something, right? Is she hears something?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
This is like a Carl Jung joint, a Jungian idea.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I know I was going back there. I was like, am I supposed to see something out the window? Is there a shadow? And I think it's just a noise. And I don't know what that noise is. You know, one has to worry that it's Greg Gary up to no good, but or a monkey with a gun. Hunky with a gun.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Or a snake. Okay, how do you feel about Chekhov's toilet snake being introduced into this episode as a potential thing that could kill you?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I used to read a lot of Dave Barry columns and he wrote one about alligators, baby alligators coming up out of the sewer. What? Like in Florida.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I could not tell you, and perhaps he made them up, but that, yes, I will say I haven't had dreams about them, but I have had thoughts about toilet gators. It might be something that is untrue, but it's something that Dave Barry wrote about that I believed in.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
He showed out and he showed up. And I love that for him. This idea of the collective unconscious is common to all human beings. He believed the collective unconscious is responsible for a number of deep seated beliefs and instincts such as spirituality, sexual behavior and life and death.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I think this could not quite possibly be clear as a metaphor for him feeling like he's in a cage and needs to break out. People have been noting this snake motif because there was first the snake choker that Chelsea was looking at in the boutique during the smash and grab.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Chloe, do not put that snake choker on even if you were part of the of the robbery. OK. So there's the snake choker. And then, of course, there is the snake that literally bites her inside this episode.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Something that Amy Lou Wood said in an interview, she was like, basically, Chelsea's the kind of person who goes through life and see snakes and just embrace them without any care of the worry of the danger that they might present. She's just like, oh, you're a snake. I want to hug you. Never mind your poisonous thing.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
But can she fix Rick? Can Amarito fix Rick? What are we going to do?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
No, no, no. Go ahead.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
So, it's, it's more about the nature, but this versus nurture, but this idea that your nature is somehow passed down through the generations it's sort of imprinted on you. And I think that's really interesting to think about especially in terms of what we talked about last week in terms of
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
It really strikes me as... Satisfaction, by the way, as a lot of people put it out, is, like, iconic, like, dual language. Like, I demand satisfaction. Like, I demand a duel.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Like, this was a dog. Yes. Dual.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Oh, there you go. Also true. But... But I think that Rick, I just really fundamentally feel like Rick is someone who is at a crossroads. And on one branch of the road is Chelsea. And on the other branch of the road is Jim Hollinger, Bangkok, satisfaction. And one is a good choice and one is a bad choice.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
And I genuinely don't know, based on previous seasons of White Lotus, what choice Rick is going to make. I'm rooting for him to take the Chelsea branch of the road. But I've rooted for so many characters in White Lotus that they have disappointed me. You can't do it. I don't know.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I'm very worried about everyone, and that's exactly where we should be. Okay, to wrap up, we got this fun prompt from our listener, Sean, which may or may not be tangentially related to an upcoming episode of The Rewatchables Who Can Say, but Sean says, between Jennifer Coolidge and Parker Posey, it seems like Mike White really excels at dipping into the Christopher Guest mockumentary talent pool.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
which two christopher guest stars would you like to see in season four one hotel staff and one guest and just for people who are listening in case you don't know the great filmmaker christopher guest he made things like waiting for guffman a mighty wind best in show uh this is final make spinal tap um and uh for your consideration and mask us a couple other things so um
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
And he has a stable of actors that he likes to use. Jennifer Coolidge being a repeat offender, Parker Posey as well. Parker Posey in Waiting for Guffman is one of my favorite things I've ever seen.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
They do. Jennifer Coolidge, sneaky star, obviously. Tanya being crucial to all three seasons of White Lotus. Double Emmy Award winner Jennifer Coolidge. So Rob Mahoney. Yeah. Of the classic Christopher Guest stable. Who are you picking to check in at the White Lotus and who are you picking to work at the White Lotus?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
the roles or the identities or the positions that these people find themselves in and can they break out of them or can they not? Can Piper be different from her family or is she doomed to just be Ratliffian like the rest of her life? What about these lessons that Vicky has to impart on them about what does or does not designate a trashy rich person?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Don't you remember me? I talk about beans a lot. Is that not interesting to you?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
She's talking about heritage beans. She has a lot to say. Okay. So you've got Fred Willard as a guest. Who do you have working at the White Lotus?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I almost picked Bob Alabama. I was really hoping you would pick Bob Alabama. How can you not?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I have chosen for my guest Michael McKean of Better Call Saul and other fame, obviously. I just think he would do a really good job as a disgruntled guest at the White Lotus.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
yeah patriarch of the family comically disgruntled yes um giving real chuck vibes from better call sell and then uh john michael higgins as as a hotel manager i love john michael higgins i think he's a really stealth
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
like lethal performer in these in these christopher guest movies and uh also he's done a lot of great voice acting work uh you might know him from legends of korra among other things and i just think as like a hotel manager who was like so good at putting on the like smarmy front while actively hating you um i think he would be absolutely killer at that so
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Neither of us went for Eugene Levy or Catherine O'Hara. A couple obvious picks, Jane Lynch, anything like that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
And so I'm good. And also hotel management quite recently. Very true.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I agree. Okay, if you have any thoughts about Christopher Guest regular who should show up in White Lotus, I'd love to hear it. MonkeyShootout at gmail.com or PrestigeTV at Spotify.com. Anything else you want to say about this episode or White Lotus in general before we go? Rob Mahoney?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
She's been reminding me of Kristen Ritter a lot.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Not energy wise, but looks wise for sure.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I hear you're a douche. Isn't that what she says to him?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Is she into it or is he a mark? I can't tell.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Yeah. He definitely looks wealthy and that is something that she seems interested in. So love that for her. I don't know. Are you rooting for those two crazy kids?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
You know, like these are all, you know, important questions. Can you can you correct your posture to break out of your people pleaser status? Like all of this idea is really rich inside of the Mike White universe.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
great okay so that does it for season three episode three of the white lotus uh robin i'll be back at the end of the week to talk more severance exciting um we should note that bill and al and i are also covering white lotus immediately after the episode ends on sunday nights you can watch all of this stuff one note on that you guys mentioned in the last sunday pod vis-a-vis guy talk
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
So you haven't seen the art we've created for it yet?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
You are but one, Rob. Seriously. Okay. Well, we'll let Bill know that's your formal polite pass. Let him down gently, please. Okay. So you watch all of those, including Rob's new show. What is it? Creep Detector?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Creep Radar.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
on the ringer tv channel on youtube or on spot in spotify uh you know you just open the thing in there it's us talking um so uh that is what is going on also we hear you we will be back to the pit we cannot tell you exactly when but we will be back
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
um and thank you to donnie beacham for this episode to john richter who was like literally breaking his back to put out all this video content for you guys to cta for being the best and helping out this morning and uh justin sales always the guy uh we'll see you soon bye
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I do want to just, we don't have like a ton of emails to get to this week, but I do want to skip to this one that you just mentioned, Tim, taking the Larazban. Larazban, Tim, maybe my new favorite TV character of all time. I'm a big fan. I can't wait to see where we go. I want to talk to you about his showering habits in a second, but...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Jackie, our listener Jackie wrote in, call me crazy, but Tim Ratliff dry swallowing a pill is way more unhinged than Rick releasing a bunch of venomous snakes. I am an Australian, though, so maybe a matter of perspective. Dry swallowing a pill. Would you do it, Rob Mahoney?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
There's something just really uncomfortable to me watching Tim just sort of snap his head back as he dry swelled the pill. I don't know.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Yeah. Tim Ratliff. is making great use of the outdoor shower at the villa.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
We're here to talk about White Lotus, Season 3, Episode 3, The Meaning of Dreams. Rob, how are you doing?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I really agree. How do you feel about an outdoor shower from Mahoney?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Feels too vulnerable to you, do you think?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Okay. I really want to talk about Piper Ratliff, actually, sort of more than anyone else. But what do you want to say about the Ratliffs? And I'll get to my Piper takes later.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Well, no. He wants to... Okay, sorry.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
But he does want the big dogs to respect him. He does? And that's, you know, no one's a bigger dog in his mind than his dad. He's the biggest dog. He is. Yeah, Tim...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
the unraveling uh that we're seeing here is sort of something i was really hoping for because um i was just talking to our pal van lathan about he's been speed binging white lotus season one and season two because he's obsessed with season three and is like i can't watch any more season three i'm out and i was like go back and watch the previous season this
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Gosh, no. We've already been through Rob Mahoney Anxiety Dream Corner on a different pod. That's true. We've already talked about that. Do I have a recurring anxiety dream?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
so he has in the last like i don't know 48 hours or something but he was talking to me yesterday about the great unraveling he was he was like having a slow hang with season two and then he was like he called it like the great unraveling and i think that that is something that is we know is so key to every season of white lotus this is just like watching armand unravel or watching you know whoever it might be um aubrey plaza's character in season two if you want to if you want to call that an unraveling and i do um and so this tim
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
eyeballing tim from the start as the person who would be the funniest to watch unravel um and getting that so quickly in the season uh it's i think it's only up from here honestly with with a lot of promising possibilities you know it's i just don't think we're gonna get the tsunami joe we're gonna get the tsunami of the soul right we're gonna we're gonna get tim ratliff being the man standing in front of the wave at the end of the day i think is what might happen
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Metaphorically.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
um yeah i mean that feels like the least of saxon's potential crimes in this show but i think it's definitely on the table for sure um also on the lorazepam front uh one of our listeners chris wrote in you know because because vick says vicky says they're not addictive i just take them when i need them this is not true
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
This is deeply untrue about lorazepam, which is not, Chris wanted to let us know, is not a sleeping pill, even though Tim is using them to get his nap reps in. This is an anti-anxiety medication. This is sort of like a quick acting sort of brief window. Are you afraid of flying? Take this lorazepam as you like, you know, as you're taking off and you will make it through the flight. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Which is perhaps why Tim is like housing them because the window is small. Yeah. So how many pills does Victoria have left in her bottle? I have questions about that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Yeah, that'll be so interesting because it's one thing to watch lorazepam Tim become more and more unhinged.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I can't even imagine her. no who is she i can't wait to find out um all right so let's talk about piper and and one of our listeners laura pointed this out and i think it's it's really worth ruminating on this idea of the the piper archetype that we've gotten a version of each season on this show um And she points out like Paula was Sydney Sweeney's friend in the first season.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
And she mentioned Harper Aubrey Plaza's character in the second season. This person who's almost like a stand in for the audience who sort of like sees the hypocrisy, sees the shitty behavior.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
calls it out you know piper has that great line about what the white lotus actually is and you know right then the uh the blob blob come in the the fancies come in and they're lululemon yoga like you know piper's piper's got a keen eye on everything but what usually happens in a season of white lotus to those characters is that mike white shows them
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
No, I'm not a snake dreamer, but what a fun thing that would to be. No, I can't remember my dreams and I think that's a blessing. I think mostly my dreams are like awkward, socially anxious interactions. I think those are my usual nightmares. Nothing primal or elemental or anything like that. Do you know?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
like exposes them as sort of as fallible, as vulnerable to the temptations of the White Lotus experience or to shitty behavior or anything like that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Yeah. And I don't feel like Mike White's treatment of them is that he's like punishing them for their behavior, but just showing that we all are in a very similar, you know, luxury yacht. If you want to look forward to next week's episode. So like. What do you see coming for Piper, who we got a little bit more information on when she went to go visit the monastery?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
It's also very it's very surface like so this idea it seems to be that Piper wants to do a program however long she's going to stay there. We don't know but this is not what she has pitched to her parents as to why she's there. So she wants to do a program where presumably she stays at the monastery for some period of time.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
And if if it were me I would want to see where are we sleeping at the monastery. Reasonable. Yeah. What's their daily schedule like? What is all of that? And it is very, yes, I think white girl privileged to be like, I'm going to go to a monastery in Thailand and everything is going to be better. And I'm so enlightened. And I don't know anything about the practicalities of what this actually is.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
That sounds absolutely correct to me.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
This episode of the Prestige TV podcast is brought to you by Coffee Mate.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Or just like fess up. Go tell Fabian. Go tell your boss. Like, I'm sorry I lost the gun. And this is the theme. I risk Mook finding out. That's exactly it. Like, this is the theme. And this is why he continues to be such a strong candidate for being involved in something tragic at the end. Like, he is in such a dire strait in this stretch of the episode. And yet, when Mook walks by...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
And smiles at him. He kind of can't help but get swept up in her beauty. Can you blame her? No, I can't blame him.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
She's so beautiful. She's so adorable. But then, like, the shift change comes. Yeah. And the guy replacing him is like, anything I should know? He's like, nope. And we get it. He's invested in upward, forward mobility to impress Mook. And so he's not going to reveal something that leads to him being fired and jeopardizes his courtship. But that's going to probably lead to somebody getting killed.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
I did.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah. I was like, my guy also thinks every podcast should be sponsored by Imodium. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yep.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Which one? The table scene or back at the villa?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
It's one scene.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
There's no thesis? There's no book club?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Great combination. This was really like the Vicky experience in miniature because she is, you know, ultimately really embarrassing herself in multiple respects, like revealing yet again that she doesn't actually know anything about her own child.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
She doesn't know anything about her own child, that she is a practicing Buddhist, that this is something that's important to her, why it would be important to her. She is just revealing... You want to live in Taiwan. Prejudice after prejudice, like total ignorant person.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
And yet we kind of can't stop like laughing in a fit of hysterics as we watch this performance because it is such a finely tuned and perfectly calibrated bit of social commentary.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
It's tough. Crowded Field.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Five minutes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
It's great stuff.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
I actually sometimes find it most amusing to listen to her just with like normal words. Like the way she just said have no purpose because she's drawing it out over like 45 seconds even though it's three words. That's the best.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
How did it make you feel? You know, you have often been known to say sex is a poetic act. It's a metaphor. What was it like to see yourself on television in this way?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
I mean, he's going to have a tough time later in bed when he hears what. she has to say about facing the feedback back home, you know? She says people are going to say we're bad parents and he goes, I wouldn't worry about that. There's a lot of other things to worry about.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
I have the same question for you guys. Did you... Obviously, he's in his haze, right? He's in this cloud for so many different reasons. On the heels of the phone call, learning he's going to go to jail, the drugs, all of it. But did you... Were you expecting at all that he would actually say, Piper, I support you.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
You should move abroad and live your life away from the blowback of my impending shame. That he would actually welcome a member of his family. I was kind of expecting that a little bit. Though, I don't... Not fully, because the other part of this is like... it's one more defeat where he has to like, yet again, grapple with the fact that his family is just shattering around him.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
His legacy is shattering around him.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
To me, it's just totally imbalanced.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Specifically because he doesn't have his phone. Like, that's actually part of why that feels possible. That he doesn't have the latest update that, like, everything's fine. He's got a gun to his temple. If Vicky hadn't opened the door, is he alive? Really good theory.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
And then makes it through the next couple days, finds out he's okay, and goes back to the same life of privilege and getting away with white-collar crime.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
And so being circumcised, to me, is part of the proof that that is actually his dick.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
What do you mean?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
In response to that. No, I'm responding specifically to her point about us getting... I thought you had more stuff.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
You have to sit down and ask yourself, what is desire? Yeah, what is desire?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
I was responding to Joanna's point on circumcision.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
You're making us wait to do it here. Yeah. The interviews off of episode four are out. And so I would say we know the answer simply because not a single interview has included the line, it was a prosthetic, which everybody says when they wear a prosthetic. So it's real. That's my deductive reasoning. What's the answer?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
I think because they didn't mention that it was a prosthetic, it's real.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
I'd still say it's real.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Is everyone current on Shorzy season four? What? Is that technically the helicoptering? Helicoptering is a big plot in Shorzy season four. Or do you have to be holding your dick and swinging it for it to be helicoptering?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
I mean, he's an Oscar winner. He was nominated for Oscars two years in a row, right? My personal...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
This is what I'm asking. It would look last to me. The lasso? Or he's just shaking it. Is that a helicopter?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
but like personal favorite would just be Moon which is a movie I absolutely love and think he's unbelievable also Box of Moonlight which is like a really early Sam Rockwell that I really really love that's like really unhinged Sam Rockwell I guess as the house of our duo we would have to say Justin Hammer One of the genuine bright spots.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
We sure did.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
I thought we were going to get another dick at the end in the Jacqueline sex scene, but we didn't. Not yet.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah, he like looked down right before he took off his pants and I was like, we are about to get another dick for the last.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Condolences.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Hey, I support everybody making the choice that they think is right for them. Good for him.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Boy, were they.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
The Magnarfen. Magnarfen.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Can we hear you doing exercise with tires? Exercise with tires? They're all like, oh, yeah, we were dancers. And Kate's like, I played softball. And he's like, I did flip tires. Exercise with tires?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
If I tried to dance like that, I would drop dead.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Like. But overall. Shooking him in and then kicking him. That was wonderful. Great stuff. Great stuff.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah. Yeah. Electric. Did you guys think when Jacqueline was looking at the three women watching that she was like, they know I'm famous. It's not just that they think I'm hot and I look great. No. They know I'm famous and they want she wanted this to get back to Harrison.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Genuinely scary moment from Alexei in that stretch. That was alarming. Kate wants to go. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
They're available for a short time only. So for the love of coffee, go try them now.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah. PJ's at the pool party. Yeah. I mean, she literally says later, like, we're old ladies. And Jacqueline is, of course, appalled and horrified. And that's the exact idea that she's rebelling against.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah. Wakes herself up to be like, shut the fuck up. We are not. She's dozing off against the pool chair. She, like, barely could keep her eyes open when she was about to have sex, which was obviously quite disturbing. That was alarming.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
They sure do.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
We'll go to... Quite an edited sequence cutting back and forth.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah. So there's another member of the group still, which is interesting. And obviously they have this larger social circle there because of the three women who come up to the table to yell at them. Yeah. Yeah, I think Vlad is really the key there because Val and Alexi are just a little too... You couldn't really even for a second stop thinking that they were working them.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
And Vlad in some ways is the scariest. He's the muscle. I mean, they all have great muscles. But he was just such effective comic relief that it was impossible not to enjoy those scenes. And the odd man out in each of the trios, the fact that Vlad and Kate are paired... Was a great touch.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
He's a liar.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Great point.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
False advertising.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
I think it's like that... I feel better now.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah. Let's not look too closely. He told Guy Talk last episode, like, your job is to protect the hotel. So this is his version of that, right? It's about the... His greeting to the guests was the most effusive, like, this is the finest hotel in the world that we had seen through three seasons. And we heard when he sat down with Sitala, like, this kind of thing was not encouraged in my home.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
This is like a haven of some sort for him that is distinct from where he came before. And... It struck me as, like, very contrary to last season. Like, we have three really distinct versions of the hotel manager. And last season, like, if we think about the response to... I like the shading in the suitcase. It's honestly, like, everyone is in Armand's shadow.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Everyone is in Armand's shadow, for sure. But, like, when Lucia and Mia...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
penetrated the hotel phrasing yeah in sicily yeah it was like this is an affront to decency and dignity so fabian is in the exact opposite he's like this is actually a kind of haven for depravity come here with your sins and be who you are and we will protect that it's nice to get different versions but you think you think he's being set up for what's your fabian theory i'm just raising a flag
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
There's somebody in there who's... No, I think Valentin is leading a crime run into the hotel. I think we have that box. Maybe.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
could be maybe he's just a good butler let's take care of his clients he went in like the span of mere hours I believe across those two episodes from being like I can't leave at all to like yeah sure not only will we take you to the club but we'll definitely come back and like fuck in your pool and in the room also wasn't he the one that did the yeah the energy healing he's an energy healer it is something I do I thought that Fabian also basically you love Valentin he's your guy he's a lot of good qualities he's grown on me as well um
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
I thought that Fabian was basically acting like a pimp. That to me was the much more sinister thing, right? He's just basically saying. He's taking a liking to you. Yeah, he's like kind of saying to Belinda, like this rich loser who has a really hot girlfriend, like maybe wants to fuck you. And she's like, he wants to kill me. And Fabian is like, no, no, no.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Like, yeah, rich, high profile guy, go for it. They think he killed his wife. I'll send you a link. That was a great line. Please do, because I'm having a hard time following. I actually like that it's like a meta commentary on this show is supposed to be standalone each season, and now we're three seasons into one plot line carrying across, and is it actually something that is a touch convoluted?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Orange eye. Love it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
as a stay the night fuck me tonight because my son's coming tomorrow is definitely a move yeah it's kind of a weird one but it's a move I did find her stumbling super nervous like do you this is consent do you guys do that here we just started very charming I think they're very sweet I just think I think if you're if you're struggling out there maybe there's a murderer after me will you stay the night could be a move to try
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Some life advice that young Lockie is going to use on Saxon in mere moments. And Chloe loves young guys.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
I would say his brother smooched him. He didn't break the kiss. He seemed very confused. Right away.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Now he's a fucking monk. Well, I think this works yet again on both levels. It's like another death harbinger for Chelsea. We've had one, at least one, every single episode. But also, Chelsea, who we love. We get the amazing, he's like my child, he's 50. You're passing your baby Yoda. It's like, he's 50.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
But the Chelsea responding to broken, brokenhearted with what's worse, that actually does tell us something about her. What's worse than being broke? Yeah. Like she is now accustomed to a certain lifestyle. Right. So losing Rick is losing that lifestyle. And that is not something that she wants to.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
I don't think of her that way. That's why it struck me because it's like even Chelsea. I thought she was saying character who we think of as kind of like I didn't take them on anything either.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Sure. There's that. But like, I think it's interesting that Chelsea feels really separate from that. Like she's pure. She's driven by love and connection. And yet, like when we get all of the Villator, she's the one who's like, we should always live like this. Like even Chelsea has been corrupted by tasting a lifestyle.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
For sure. I'm not saying that's her motivation. I'm saying that like even somebody who's not motivated by that is swept up in it at a certain point.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
It definitely seems like he's coming back because Rick asked him to keep the next night free.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Give it a go.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
I think I have one life. That's it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah, and that, like, very shortly after that, Saxon's response, because that was, like, the nominally about the beer, right? Who would say, oh, I need you to, like, pace yourself. Let them get messy. I'm a senior, bro.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
And then, you know, shortly thereafter, Lockie, like, immediately takes the pill from Chloe, and Saxon is horrified, and you have one beat where you think, well, it is technically his job as the older brother to be like protecting him, make sure he's safe. But really, there are two things in the mix there.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
One, he, Lockie is just not listening to the, he's not following through on the plan that Saxon just said. But more broadly then, Saxon just has to confront time and time again across this episode. Like, Lockheed's his own person. He operates outside of Saxon's control.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
And not only does he operate outside of his control, he is preparing to conquer Saxon, like to turn this around on him completely, to be the one who is in control of his situation in a way that Saxon is not prepared for. Do you have siblings?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Okay.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
I feel like we're going to see him in episode six when Rick... executes his con or attempts to and confronts Hollinger. And he plays the director.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
He plays the director and that's it. And then Rick goes back and finds Chelsea in whatever state that she is in after everything that happened on the yacht.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Went to scratch her ass while Jacqueline was fucking her dude.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
I mean, didn't seem like it was over, right? I think that Lockie, it was... Saxon, like, rubbing his hands in his eyes... He's bleary-eyed. He's confused. He's like, what's happening? Speaking of lack of consent. Yeah. What is happening? The girls are laughing, but Saxon looked genuinely disturbed by what was unfolding. Is that because he's like, wait, this is not okay?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Or is that because he's like, what am I feeling? But the single most striking shot in the entire episode to me is Lockie's face after that. Because he's just like experiencing a moment of not only desire, but like power. He feels proud. Yeah. He's like, I took the thing I want. You've been telling me to and I did. And it was really fucked up and weird.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
I would like to ask you guys where this falls. We'll keep it just to HBO Sunday nights on your HBO Sunday night incest power rankings.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
That's number one. Where would you put this compared to like— I think that's one, two, and three. Well, I mean, what about Jimmy and his mom?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah, sure. It's true. Jimmy and his mom boardwalk. That's tough to match. This is the research ballet I was doing this last week.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Exactly. Octavia and Octavian on Rome. That's a great one. Obviously, the list of thrones and... Did they do anything on Curb? The list of thrones and House of the Dragon alone, you know, we could get dozens deep. Obviously, Daemon and Rhaenyra. This doesn't even really crack the top five. Doesn't even crack the top ten.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Schwarzenegger's great a character I hate I hate this guy they're putting him in this extremely vulnerable place in a way that like makes me really invested in what happens next for him even like he got peer pressured into doing drugs like he didn't want to do the drugs he did we have everything you know we had the moment earlier in the season where Tim was like I don't do drugs and Saxon's like me neither and Piper's like dude you crush Adderall all the time and he's like just to be
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
do work just to be good at my job. We're seeing what's happening with Tim. Like these, these men say they don't do this thing and then they become swept up in a very alarming way and something that they're quite susceptible to. So there was just a lot of like stuff in the episode where Saxon and not a character we had any empathy before previously is like in this deeply vulnerable place.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
I thought in terms of where we cut off and like that point about not knowing what comes next, these are not incest examples to be clear. These are not incest examples.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
But because we don't know, like, do they end up sleeping together? Does something happen after this?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
There was a little bit of a, like, E2 Mama Tambien or, like, Challengers aspect to it, right? Where you're just, like, again, remove the incest from it. In theory, that sexual situation is supposed to be about somebody else. And then... Oh, a thousand percent. Those two friends or figures end up being the ones who gravitate toward each other.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
I don't think so, ultimately. Because at the end of the day, Chelsea, when she said, when they had the funny but alarming classic White Lotus conversation about, well, you think he'd kill you? No. Oh, Gary would kill me. What did Chelsea say? She's like, I just actually would feel really bad.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah. But she feels really different and a reason that draws us to her from Jacqueline, where Jacqueline's like, I feel betrayed. So now I will hurt this person. Harrison.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah. They're all complex.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yep. And Goggins is like, still miss that pussy, man. Wild. Yeah. Incredible stuff from Goggins.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
No.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
To gain access to her husband, Jim Hollinger, who he believes killed his dad, but probably is his dad. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
That was what was so sad about him trying to compel Saxon to turn over his phone by being like, we can figure out how to provide something more and having to confront that he didn't actually feel like he had that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
But that book, we talked about this last week, but that book that Piper is reading and that comes back into play in this episode so memorably, the quiz that we hear is, yeah, identity is a prison.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
No man is spared this prison.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah. But how long is the flight from Maui to Thailand?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
I don't know.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Take them a while to get there, I guess. Well, no, actually.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
One day and one hour, according to Google.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Citizens of the world.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Well, like where do they start? Can't go to Australia. Had to leave the States. Like the West and the South. Either way around. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah. Oh, no question. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Maybe this whole season is just a crazy fever dream. I'm sure he'll talk about it more after the season or maybe not. But the fever dream part of it feels like all of the particular trappings of how to interrogate the core themes that he's been interested in since day one.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
So I think that's actually what's interesting to me about the Rick and Frank conversation moving forward is like, what impact does what he just heard have on Rick? You know, the nature of desire in their relationship Circumstances is very different. But Rick is also a character who's being driven by desire, right? Like vengeance is a type of desire.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
The desire to avenge your family, to enact an exact revenge on the person you think has wronged you. Does what he hear, coupled with the conversations he's had with Chelsea, coupled with the sessions that he had with Amrita... balance him and pull him back when he's staring down the barrel of the gun looking into Jim Hollinger's eyes? And also this question of identity and who am I?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
It's like it's episode five and it's... I mean, this is what we talked about last week, like exactly this, like that he would attempt it or start to attempt it, but something would halt him, which is, you know, exactly what happened.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
He hasn't? Thanks for checking in.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
But it gives us that moment earlier in the season of him being driven to that point of... supreme desperation, feeling like he had no other path forward. And then now three episodes to potentially make a different decision.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah. Did you know the second... Because you had both, like...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
But he is in some ways right. His grandfather was a governor in North Carolina. Yeah, exactly. He's like from this like proud line of Carolinian greats. And it was interesting to hear Vicky describe him as a Boy Scout last episode to Piper. You know, you don't know how lucky you are. And then to hear him say to Piper this episode, like I literally was an
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
altar boy and to to have before he sings beautifully and then we get to hear that him again yeah um but yeah like that it the characters are also different but the fact that they are all grappling with that question of who am i who do i who has the world made me feel i have to be and then are any of them actually able to rebel against that you left out one question please god tell me what to do please god tell me what to do who am i what should i do yeah
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
That gun being in that room still makes me really nervous. Like, I do not feel like we're. Because you're like, a monkey's going to come in. Well, I'm like, is Saxon going to shoot Lockie? Like, is Saxon going to find that gun and be like, what did you do to me? Like, that's completely possible. Poison smoothie out. Poison smoothie's still in.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
But we didn't know. And, like, before that, though, we had talked earlier in the season, someone will show up in the middle of the season. There will be that little, like, bit of garnish that you didn't know. And we knew because of two prior seasons of White Lotus to expect something, but we had no idea what shape it would take inside of the season.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
The poison smoothie remains in until the moment the final credits roll.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
But like, you know, we are only five episodes in, five episodes is a lot, but mere five hours ago, we were like, Lockie, this beautiful innocent in the center of this family tug of war.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah. Right.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
And Fabian tells Hollinger's guards to shoot the Interpol agents because he's like protect the hotel. Protect the hotel. That actually to me like one thing that I didn't think totally tracked in this episode. Belinda going to Fabian for help, sure, but, like, you can go call the cops on your own, right?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
She doesn't actually need him to do that for her, but, like, delaying her maybe doing that until we're closer to the events of the finale.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah, but I think that that supports the Joe's theory, because if she delays and it takes her a day or two to work up the courage to do that or she does it next episode. Really good theory, though. I like it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
And then when we had the Rick phone call, we're like, who could that be? But the second that you saw him, like, when Goggins goes down to the lobby and it's Sam Rockwell, right away do you know that you're In for the night of your life. In for a ride.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Guy Talk and Mook are going to. So a bunch of stuff there. So we think Guy Talk will spot the robbers there then.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
No question.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Will she see the text? She's going to finish scratching her ass. Yeah. See him leave in the morning?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
We have Vicky and Tim going to the monastery with Piper. They told her they would go the next day.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
But Tim, on the heels of praying to God for guidance, is about to head into a monastery. Like, what impact might that have on him? I'm really excited about this.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
He might pretend he doesn't because he's ashamed, but he will remember. There has to be, there has to be fallout. He's got to remember.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
With the twirling montage. curling evil mustache with her strand of hair. To your point about the predator and the prey, the fact that like, it's not just that Locky became the predator, it's that Saxon handed him all the tools and like has to confront that now. And he like Lockie has become the person that Saxon wanted him to be. But Saxon is the one who ended up suffering.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
I don't think so. I think this is an awakening for him.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Grim at Mallory. Quite grim. Not like incest is my thing every single day of the week, but like sexual predation is my thing.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
I'm going for what I want. Like, people are here to use me. Hopefully not. Or for me to use them. Like, hopefully not. Hopefully he's still like, you know what? I could go to just NC State after all.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah, I am really excited about that too. I think I'm most invested in the Ratliff storyline at this point. Wow. What happens on the boat?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
I tell you guys, we step back and I tell the two of you, we will see Parker Posey's Victoria Ratliff enter a monastery in Phuket, Thailand next week. That sounds amazing. That sounds great. And you say I'm prepared for the best hour of TV of my life.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
How are the fingers? The fingers still work?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Phuket? She will for sure say something.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Then she would have to know they were in Thailand in order to say that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
All right. It's going to be a good one.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Same.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah. And Shane is there and Rachel comes back to him.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
There was that like very ominous cut to Piper. It was so weird. She's meditating alone and her brothers are having a night of debauchery. It was such a weird cut to her.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
What's interesting, and this is ultimately the sign of a really well-conceived and structured and executed season, is that I think you're both right. It feels five-eighths of the way through that everybody could be involved as an impetus in what happens and potentially die or be harmed in some way, hurt in some way. Because all of those possibilities feel...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
He had some commentary on the last episode. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
like they've been appropriately set up. And then also like at the end of the day, probably the damage will be contained to a few people, even if it is a shootout that is caused by someone getting spooked by a monkey or a lizard.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Though I think what you're saying does like still make, we've probably talked about this the most throughout the season, like the Guy Talk corner of the story or the Valentine corner of the story, the most ripe for like the contained damage. If a Russian dies?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
A lot of dick talk. A lot of dick talk.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
And that's part of what's interesting about it. It's not really about the twist or the shock. Like throughout season two, I mean, throughout season one, we're watching Armand spiral and we're watching Shane and Armand on a collision course.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
And then throughout season two, the number of moments where there was some reason to parse whether Tanya was headed towards some doom or Greg was the cowboy or this and that, it's like it all was pointing toward the place it went.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
We've only had two other seasons.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
So he could truly surprise us by doing something actually distinct from what our expectation now is. Or... Maybe that is part of the commentary of the show.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
That's not always what happens on White Lotus. Quinn left. He ran away at the airport and he went and frolicked in the ocean.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Right.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Yeah, Molly.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
The little candy in the baggy party drugs. I'm Molly. I'm old.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
Just sensational stuff.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
I think that those points are all part of the same text, though. And even though this season is set in Thailand and Buddhism is a central, actual, active aspect of the text, like it's not subtext, that's been there since the beginning, you know, minute one of the show and has been a through line across all three seasons. Like, what role does desire play in your life?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
And what decisions do you make when you're guided by desire and you're ruled by desire? And then what decisions do you make if you feel like you have to rebel against that? Like the Jacqueline thing is of a piece with that entirely. It's how the thing she desires is to be desired, right? Is to be an object of other people's desire.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
And so she is potentially sabotaging her friendships, her marriage, core relationships in her life to feel that for a minute.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 5: Broke or Brokenhearted … or Worse
I thought you were going to say in the history of television. Is that how you feel about the Sam Rockwell scene? I don't know how he feels about it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
This episode of the Prestige TV podcast is brought to you by Coffee Mate. Coffee Mate has been searching the globe for flavors that pair perfectly with coffee. So when they heard that the new season of HBO's The White Lotus was set in Thailand, they were inspired to brew up two new flavors, Thai iced coffee and piña colada flavored creamers.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
It sounded a little like Merritt Weaver to me, but that might be just because I've been watching too much Severance. Mm-hmm. Joanna's voice recognition technology is some of the best. That one I'm not very certain on. And we don't have any closing credits to tell us one way or another.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Not every time. But I think sometimes it is. Seems at least worth considering.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
You're missing the like duvet wrapped around you as you, as you sit on the beach.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Two, you know, like, members of the hotel staff. two staff people. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Yeah, and here's her little phone call.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I'm just going to say as a blanket policy, no tsunami videos before bed. Just like blanket. I think that's a great rule. You don't even have to be in Thailand. No tsunami videos before bedtime. A great rule. We've had a lot of pushback on our accent critique of Jason Isaac, specifically. I'm loving it, as you know. And Mike White said that he based the Ratliffs on Bravo's Southern Charm.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
And we got a bunch of emails of people sending specifically Tom Ravenel from Southern Charm. Never seen a second of Southern Charm. Me neither. But it is pretty amazing. on the nose, and this guy was a disgraced politician and Charleston playboy, Tom Ravenel.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Right. And that's what Isaac said, too, that there were some vowels that sound British. I will say I still stand by immediately being a bit British last week. But I think either my ear is getting used to it or I'm convinced by all of the millions of emails we got about it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
No, no, no, no. However, it's eight episodes. Right. And we think we're only doing a week. Yeah. So is that last episode. Yeah. After whatever happens.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Rick is ready to run a con before his first caffeinated beverage. What do you think of Rick sniffing a muffin phrasing right before he went over to talk to them? My favorite thing that happens at breakfast actually is Kate is talking to Lori's kind of background. Kate's like, do you think I could do something like this at home?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
You don't have a job. What do you have to do?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I think so. Wild stuff. Lori's a sniper.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Yeah. Time to shred.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I think, I mean, I think we've seen similar things on some of like the big prestige antihero shows, but it's never what is delicious about this is he's oversees everything. And there's nothing he can do about it. He's in a different time zone overseas. So it's not like he can go into the office or have like a kooky car chase, the helicopters are coming, like Goodfellas moment, right?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
He has to like, he's trying to pretend to his family that everything's fine. And if he goes back to handle it, then he has to fess up that it's happening.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
That shot him in the shower? Yeah, I was going to say, has anyone ever come back from the upshot of the shower?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
That's why Isaac's is like front leaderboard for Emmys for me because it's the difference.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I don't know that I apologize. She acknowledged that there's a different opinion out there, but she did not apologize. I have learned something.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Yes, right now, so far.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I think between the shout, like... Surveying his domain in episode one and shower shot in episode three, Isaacs has gone really far. Goggins also, like Grifter Goggins showing up here versus... What about Snake Goggins?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Snake release Goggins.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Oh, that Piper always gets her way?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Do you think there's the potential for any kind of, like,
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
actual growth from Tim because what he says to Saxon in that moment right is he says we both know how gratifying work is but there's got to be more to life than just success if we leave room for them to develop then we'll have more to offer which is not something Tim Ratliff of episode one would ever have said when they were talking to Pam about like him the father son working together he's like yeah we love working together it's great and so like
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Him saying it can't all be work, knowing that everything's going to fall apart for them back home. That's like a forced spiritual development inside of Tim Ratliff.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I think I'm so impressed by you. You're going to have a phenomenal career is not. That also means.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Honestly, he's great. Both he and Simnavola, who are both UFO babies, are really, really good.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
He's also partially a Kennedy, so that's something to remember.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I really agree. Can I ask you a question about the naming? Do you think, so Lachlan is such a rare name that I immediately thought of Lachlan Murdoch, right? Saxon is the name of one of Elon Musk's kids. I see.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
And I was trying to find a famous Piper. Piper Palin is the best I could do. But I couldn't.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Pam is ready to help him blend that. She was going to make the smoothie. She wasn't just delivering the blender. She's like, what milk do we want? How much of this creatine powder are you going to put in there?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Yeah, or do you feel like Chelsea's safe? Or are you going to double fake yourself out and be like, or does that actually mean... I know, is he counting on us thinking that?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Should we be worried about the iPhone rule then?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
According to Rian Johnson, Apple told him that you can't let a bad guy use an iPhone. And that has crept up in shows before. So is he the gunman? Yeah. Does he get his hand on the gun somehow? Does he try to do something desperate?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Or he just can't stand any of them having to face the reality of what has happened here. Dark. Very dark.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
All of us were saying it wrong.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
And then Sitala. Sitala. Sitala.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Sitala.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Oh my God, this was remarkable. And my guy Fabian, who is maybe my new favorite. Actually heartbreaking.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Fabian's very protective of Sitala and like Dufferin. But like the finding out that he has been mispronouncing her name, as I'm sure I am in my own way, but he was just like, I'm sorry, it's what? I know. Painful.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
But like Fabian.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I would not be able to weigh in on this.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I know my sign and what that means about me. What's your sign?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Couldn't tell you. Okay. I literally have no idea.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Yeah, probably. I'll ask Chelsea what she thinks.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
What's a classic Libra according to you?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
That's us.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Wow. Yeah. How wonderful for you. How wonderful for you.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Good for you, man. I feel like I'm year of the cock on the Chinese menu.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
That's Bill.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Jacqueline is pushing Lori.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Yeah. And the fact that – Do you think that connection is because in terms of this trust triangle when it gets to, like, what unites us, what divides us? Kate dropping the, like, I voted for Trump bomb is, like – Right.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
And I can get him for you. Yes. Like I'm doing the flirting for you. I will facilitate this to make you happy. I am in a committed relationship, but it's still my allure that's getting you closer to this guy. Yes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Who knew we were going to bring that up on a White Lotus bike ride?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Wow. Would you get a lot of us to tattoo?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Did you know that there's like a huge Russian population in Thailand? Yeah. No? Yeah. No. I'm going to add that to my con list. When they're talking to Valentin, they're like, oh, you came here before the war. And he was like, yeah. But when the Russia-Ukraine war broke out, Russia was persona non grata. Russian citizens could not fly to so many countries. And Thailand was like, come here.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
And so it was a massive influx of Russians in Thailand. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Yeah, yeah. And schemes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Guy talk.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Here's a follow-up question. This is Rob Mahoney's take on Guy Talk. He thinks he's like a creep. I don't get that vibe off of him, but Rob's on a limb.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Rob has good creep radar? Yeah. Tough one there for Rob. He's got nothing but time.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Yeah. Creep Radar with Rob Mahoney?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Let's get that going right now. Here we go.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Can I just say it's an incredible time for Creep Radar. Oh, my gosh.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Creep everywhere.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Oh, is this where I get to talk? Go ahead. Okay. Where are you on this? Yeah. Prince Yanni, the best. Legend. Texted me and said she was in on my Saxon is a virgin thing.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I mean, we don't know. I don't know what her virgin radar is, but she says she introduced me to a term that is gym cell, which I had never heard before.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
An incel who likes to hit the gym.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Shout out to Nora.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Nora should host gym cell corner.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Do you want to say on camera what you texted me about?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Do you think that Saxon is going to use his, like, pec flex trick to seal the deal with Chloe?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Again, I feel like this is a make or break moment for Rick. Like he is locked into this vengeance plan. It seems like he doesn't see a future for himself. He feels like he has no future. But if he can get vengeance.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Chelsea. Chelsea.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
It's like, can you see what's right in front of you?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Chelsea who's still having dinner with you despite you getting her snake bit.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I'm sure that that feels really true to him. Sawyer also can't go back to Australia. It's giving Sawyer. It's giving Sawyer. You know what the snake show made me think of? Justified Season 4. I was thinking about that too. Yeah. Goggins with the snakes in Justified Season 4.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Right? He feels like he's stuck in a cage.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
And Amrita thinks she can help him. Okay, this is going to be my running bit if I remember to do this next week.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Sometimes I do.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Both of you had them? Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
No, but that's great because I feel like sometimes I just use characters' names and people have no idea what I'm talking about.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Yeah, when I podcast with you, you're like, you know, the blonde ladies.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Yeah. Well, do you think... If this whole theme of the season is not just drugs, but also like spiritual awakening. Right. Like, who is that available to? Who's going to have the like Nirvana moment here? Or is it available to anyone? Is it available to Rick? Chelsea already seems pretty enlightened to me.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I hope so.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Oh, Piper. Piper. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
She only had six months of the tripping plan to figure out— Wait, but this is a big reveal from Piper because she wants to do a program, which is not one— For a year. For a year, which is not— Her family knows nothing about her life. They think she's there for a thesis interview, and she's there.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
That's what I— Right now, especially.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
The thing about White Lotus is that sometimes people leave White Lotus enlightened. Mm-hmm. And sometimes people leave White Lotus trapped in the same toxic relationship as when they got there. And sometimes they leave dead.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Yeah, dude.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
And if I ever register that I'm doing it, I put my arms down. Because I know what it gives off. I would also sit in a defensive posture if that were my family.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Probably. I think like a hunch of any kind.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Protecting your belly sort of, you know, sort of like. Right. Yeah. You're vulnerable. You're vulnerable. Places. Your soft bits.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Can we go back to Chloe for a second?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Talking about Tanya?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I thought shocking.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
And all they found was part of her leg, which is untrue. Correct. I went back and rewatched. I mean, you rewatched it more recently, but I was like, I feel like we saw her whole body, which we do. We see her whole body.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
First name, last name.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Right. Or what is Belinda? Belinda does not seem convinced by this. No. So.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
But his like predatory, like sort of scoping out the restaurant, looking at Saxon to your point. But I think something that's really important about Chloe talking about Tanya and Belinda talking about Tanya and all of this other stuff. is there's this batshit theory floating around with love and respect to everyone who believes in this theory that this was like a prequel. What?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Yeah, because they were like, maybe this is before he met Tanya. Maybe this is before Belinda met Tanya. There were a bunch of people who thought this was like a... I think people have been watching too much Severance and or Westworld. They thought it was a prequel season, but it's clearly not. No, it's clearly not.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Let's see. Just me...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Lost. Don't trust him on Lost.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Napoleon Dynamite. Uncle Rico. Good call. Good call.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
It was very distressed through this whole sequence. It couldn't have possibly ended well, right?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I'm not opposed to like a little corn snake. Like there's some like cute little snakes that exist. But if they've got, if it's like a hooded cobra, if it's got like poisonous fangs or a rattle, it's enough for me.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Yeah. It's a no for... Oh, so Rick... Snake show?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
But also Chelsea nearly dying twice is important. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Unless it's a different kind of snake show, right? Exactly.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Did you hear when the fancies, as Bill is calling them, were checking on Valentin, there was like hardcore moaning on the soundtrack. The musical accompaniment. And same with Chloe and Saxon. Yeah. Like they're putting like pornographic moaning on the soundtrack of this show. Yes, I did notice. Okay, just making sure.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
When you see the snake behind her.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Rick seemed... Not Rick. Rick seemed genuinely upset. We were constantly questioning, like, does Rick actually care about Chelsea at all? Right? And when she's going to the hospital, he seems, like, desperate to follow her.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Yep. Uh-huh. She voted for Trump.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
She's like, do you really want to talk about Trump? We're really going to talk about Trump today. Again, this like silent smile thing she does, I think is like killer.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
We're not watching ahead?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
What I think was so smart about what they did is they did a little bait and switch with us. When they put her in Austin, you're like, oh, Austin. Sure. And then she's like. A little blue haven. A little blue bubble in Texas. And then she's like, oh, no.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Yeah. And they haven't seen each other in a long time. And their accusation is that she has molded her personality to fit her husband. And also. Which seems true. My, my favorite moment.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Because they think you're undisciplined. I promise you're not watching ahead because you're like, as soon as we're done, I'm going to watch episode four. You're leaving here to go on.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
King of Austin.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
My favorite, my favorite moment.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
My favorite part is when Kate is like, you would know that if you came to visit me. And they're like, can't wait to get down there. I really want to come.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Yeah, your kids look great. I get the Christmas card every year or something like that. I thought it was weird that you were all wearing red hats, but whatever. It's fine. Baseball caps instead of Santa hats. Odd choice. Inside the trust triangle, I think what's really interesting inside the patented Jacoby trust triangle is, like, what are the strongest bonds of identity that you can have, right?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
And it's, like, Lori and Kate are moms who have been married and divorced for a long time, and Jacqueline doesn't get that. Right. Jacqueline and Kate have wealth and status. Yeah, have good plastic surgeons. You know what I mean? Right. But then there's this, like, Trump voter thing.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
And the Trump voter thing I thought was really interesting because, first of all, this was made before they knew what the outcome of the election was. So, like, how does this scene play?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
But, like— This scene existed. So how is it going to play if there was a different outcome? You know, all of that. And then also, I thought it was interesting to make the Trump part explicit here versus in White Lotus season two when they were talking about voting. They were like, you know, the couple, Theo James and stuff like that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Like, do you even vote was this sort of conversation they were having.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
But that's like a more nebulous version of this. Like, wait, you didn't vote for Trump, did you? Right.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Well, and that's why the chameleon is like a habit. Right. This is how you choose to live your life. This is like a belief sort of thing, you know what I mean?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
All right, cool. I'm bumping churches.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
would have said we're horrified how could you do that as a woman all the things that they say but it felt like the more active judgment was like is this what she believes it's the chameleonic that's certainly what um what laurie and jacqueline were talking about that's what the whispers later yeah she always just does whatever dave does yeah it's a classic julia roberts runaway sounds amazing could dave be showing up to thailand
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I think that... It doesn't feel safe to confront Greg Gary at dinner this way. But she doesn't know, but he doesn't know what she doesn't know. If that makes any sense.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Is White Lotus just a show about Greg Gary going around the world killing women? Is that what this show is?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
You're saying he gets spooked? He's like, someone else gets spooked, and then he's like, I have to defend you. Is Trigger happy, has something to prove, and you think the inciting incident is a monkey? Or a snake? They're everywhere. Okay.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
We've done sex on a yacht on White Lotus before, Portia and Jack last season. So what you're saying is you cannot wait For sex and have sex with Chloe on the yacht. That is your number one.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I'm also excited for this.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
What a weird thing to say right in the middle of talking about White Lotus.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I dare you to say that to Chris and Andy's face. Saxon mentions that there's a big full moon holiday. And this is like a thing right next, the island next door to the island they're shooting on. They have like a rave on the beach every single month for the full moon. It's just this huge beach party in Thailand.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Uh-huh.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Read the Bible is like a pretty great Chelsea quote. Incredible stuff. Not wrong. Well, neither is Rick, though. Not all snakes bite, man.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Do you think that Tim was like, that looks pretty nice right about now?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Stop it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
No, that was not a Libra move of you at all.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I can't believe this is a fight you want to pick.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
He doesn't do drugs. Very, very worrying.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Jason Isaacs. Goggins, I think.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
It's a great Goggins episode. I just want to say that I think it was last week that I was like, if Tim Ratliff gets into the lorazepam, we're going to have a good time. And I feel like we're about to have a good time. But it almost deprived us of Tim. Lorazepam Tim is something that I'm very excited for.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I don't take lorazepam. Yeah, it's a sedative.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Well, Vicky is happy to say that it's not addictive. It depends on your milligrams is what I would say.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
She doesn't just take them at night though. She like just takes them. What else is in her cocktail?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
And now I know.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
But I like that you turned to me for drug info and horoscope info. And I love this Northern California image.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
And also like if you're talking about like body mass, you know, like Tim is much bigger than his wife. So like whatever her dosage is, he's probably going to need more.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I agree. Yeah. I agree because, and I know you, do you want to talk about the interview you had on the pod?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Yeah. Well, here's my question about the yacht for you, too.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Is Saxon bringing anyone else? Is a whole family going?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
She said expat, like a bunch of expats. So I think there's just going to be other people.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I bet it's going to be a bunch of LDHs. Losers back home, man.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
It's going to be fantastic.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
We learned a lot about accents, about horoscopes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Snakes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Would you kill a mouse if it was in your house?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
When they were location scouting.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
female cats are less Marky right I think you would love to have a little female cat I think that would be real cats Mark don't they they can don't you want the big cats to respect you what you don't just be like neurotic all you're like die a fucking virgin fucking cat virgin do you we are back next week on the prestige TV pod but Joe's gonna be on with Rob Mahoney
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
A couple weeks.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I don't want it to be over. I know.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
A plus, I think. A plus. Really good.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Yes. Absolutely.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Everyone I know is watching except for you. You're the only person on the planet that I know who's not watching.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Three mentions this episode. Deal. I told you I'll watch The Sopranos as soon as you let me do a show about it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Good to see you.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
So this is incredible.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
The rat lifts... I'm susceptible to germs. Two out of five of the rat lifts are on lorazepam right now. Yeah. Right?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Rick claims that his drugs were laced. The weed that he got from, like, Weedland or whatever. It's Cannabisland.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Whatever it's called. I don't believe that. Do you think... The blondes, the ladies, are they going to have a drug experience? I sure hope so.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Still cranking it out. I have heard that that's still on the show. Still cranking it out.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Yeah. I love fancies. I sure hope so. They're drinking a lot. They're drinking a lot. Are they going to have a drug experience?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I don't know. Laced or otherwise are chosen.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I'm thrilled.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Saxon's going to be there.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Chelsea's going to be there. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Rob and I got an email. Someone was pointing out to us that the poisonous tree that's in their villa, the pong pong tree, is known as the suicide tree.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I did not think so. She said very, very poisonous. You could die. But she didn't say you will die.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
The hospital is only 15 minutes away. We know this thanks to Chelsea. Hero that she is.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Chug it down, Lockie. Don't you want to be one of the big dogs? That sounds like it could happen.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Hearing you say that, that feels, something with Lachlan in the smoothie seems like he feels being forced on him.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Well, that's another one that people have been pointing out. You know, like in the opening credits, there are all these like postures with the various animals. My favorite one is Parker Posey's where it's just like two monkeys getting high. But Lockie's is Sam Nivola's is just like a guy floating in the water. Now, that could be Lockie in the deprivation tank.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
The mushroom zombies.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Or his chill water hammock where he asked his sister who she had talked to recently.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I feel like it's, well, I don't know. White Lotus is not operating on normal moral behaviors, but it feels like the kind of story where Rick has a choice to make. give up vengeance, embrace Chelsea's affection, choose a path of, like, life, or choose vengeance, and that will lead in death and destruction. That's a usual setup, but White Lotus tends to zig and zag.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Absolutely not. No, because Robert Pattinson Batman was never as charming as Rick is when he sits down. Who is he actually doing? He's Sawyer.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I'm thrilled. It was great.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Grifter Goggins was wonderful.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Oh, it's a crowded field. Everyone is amazing. I don't know. Jason Isaacs. He's been really good. He's been really good. He's been really good. Really, really good. They're all great. Tim is the one who's like the most like being squeezed going through it. You know what I mean?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I can't wait to talk about this Belinda episode. About Greg Gary or Pornchai.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Your guy Pornchai. I can't wait. He's going to have good dreams of her. Is that a Thai saying? Fantastic.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Pornchai mumbling to himself tipsy tipsy as he walks away. Relatable content.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I don't want hover hands. Hover hands is not for me. Energy moving is not for me. One of the many things that you and Kate have in common? Yeah. You don't believe in energy healing? Well, one of the many things. One of the many things that you and Kate have in common? Let's back off putting me in the same bucket as Kate.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Close your eyes. You can't even open your eyes. Yeah, close your eyes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Like, it's an emperor's clothes situation where you're just sort of like.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Forget Kate. People pleaser? Lockie's, like, hunched position is, like.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Very identifiable.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Chloe and Saxon it's on that was another big takeaway okay we're on with some they're having there's some eye fucking going on he's definitely banging her or is he or is she gonna like fleece him for some money so she eyeing him as a mark or as someone to have sex with or both I had that thought and that's my question too but I do wonder if that's too similar to the Lucia Albie I think it's my last year with Greg Gary has sucked
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
A new meal ticket?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Yeah, it would be a little... We'll get into that and then we'll get into... Wait, are you hoping for then, like, is it boat sex?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I think Jacqueline Lemon's going to be fine. Yeah. I think Lori's going to be fine. Oh, Lori. I love her. I think Kate is going to be fine. Kate.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Did you guys talk about this on the pod, that there's, like, an actor that hasn't been announced yet?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
Oh, I don't know. Disaster? Chaos. Who are you more worried for? Chelsea, who's already been to the hospital, or our guy Tim Ratliff, who's hitting the lorazepam hard?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
That's just down the water. There's an actor that hasn't been announced on White Lotus, and we know that Rick called his friends. Right.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3: The Unraveling of Tim Ratliff
I don't remember them doing it. He calls his friend Frank. Yeah, he calls his friend Frank. Yeah. Frank. Frank. Or any of the number of people that Tim Ratliff has talked to on the phone. Chuck. Chuck. Terry, the woman on the phone with him, I'm unwilling to identify this with any certainty.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
This episode of the Prestige TV podcast is brought to you by Coffee Mate. Coffee Mate has been searching the globe for flavors that pair perfectly with coffee. So when they heard that the new season of HBO's The White Lotus was set in Thailand, they were inspired to brew up two new flavors, Thai iced coffee and piña colada flavored creamers. They're available for a short time only.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And knowing that you can do the most horrendous extreme things to them and they will not remember it at all.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Tough. That's an understatement. Grim. Quite grim, Jo. Grim. And I think, you know, we've seen it a couple times like when Mark in season one gets an explanation for why he has like a bump in his head when he's an outie or whatever. most recently after the Orpo has an explanation for why he was all wet, you know, sort of explained to him.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
But if the severance practice is sort of, if the walls are holding even firmer or even higher, sort of what more could they do? Yeah. that an Audi wouldn't even know that they did.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Persona.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Exactly. Like, there are so many... We find out in one of her intake sessions with Dr. Mao, who we'll talk about in a second, but, like, that she did six rooms in one day. Yes. But there are so many rooms down there. Um, you know... Place names that we've never seen on an MDR monitor on these doors and stuff like that. Cold Harbor, though, still remains a secret, right?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
We're going to do our best. You might note that the runtime is longer than usual on this episode. That's because we've got an interview with Damon Lindelof, who came into the studio this week to talk about his severance thoughts and theories and all the rest. This is an edited version of a longer conversation, which is up on YouTube.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
She has not been in the Cold Harbor room. This is like a new room for her. And she saw the label on it, but she has not been inside it, right? That she knows of.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Oh, for sure. Yeah. Rainbows, sunshine, lollipops, something like that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
How optimistic for you?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Well, we'll always have it tattooed on Drummond's hands if we need it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Okay, so we mentioned that Gemma has a number of not only personas, but also she has wigs and costume changes and something that you texted to me, Rob. Rob is very assiduous about not talking about the episode. He does not burn pod. We don't pre-chat about the episode.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
But what you did text me is you said, we're going to need to talk about Dollhouse.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And also our listener, Mike, coincidentally wrote in to us about Dollhouse just last week. So shout out, Mike. Deetchan Lockman, who plays Gemma, a.k.a. Miss Casey, you and I both, I think, were introduced to her on the TV show Dollhouse, which ran from 2009 to 2010 for two seasons. Do you want to tell the people at home who maybe did not catch this quickly canceled gem what Dollhouse is about?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
So if you go to the Ringer TV YouTube channel, you can watch an hour of Damon Lindelof talking about And if you listen to this podcast, you get about half of that. You get like severed, essentially. So, you know, that is what is going on on this podcast.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
The main doll on that show is Eliza Dushku of Buffy Vampire Slayer fame. And, like, you and I both agree that she's not the greatest part of that show. But Deason Lockman and Enver Joke, who play two of the other dolls, are, like, phenomenal. Uncanny.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
At exactly this.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Different accents, different whatever it is. And so that was, like, a pure pleasure watching Dollhouse. I have been waiting for... For Deidre Lockman to have like another opportunity to really show what she can do. And she's popped up here and there. But I don't think she's been and even in season one of Severance was not, you know, she's great, but not given a lot to work with.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And then this is just a Deidre Lockman showcase this episode and she's phenomenal in it. And one other thing I want to say about Dollhouse is that ostensibly in that show, everyone who is a doll has volunteered, has signed up for five years of this in exchange for a good deal of money or to make something bad in their life go away or whatever it is.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Except for our main character, who there are questions about whether she's there consensually. And I would say a similar case for Gemma here, where my interpretation of what we see in this episode is that Lumen has been lurking in Gemma and Mark's life since they're very meet-cute. They're at a blood drive run by Lumen. Yep.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
When they're having fertility issues, they go to a fertility clinic run by Lumen where Dr. Maurer, who we spend a good deal of time with in this episode, is at that clinic. We see her have a miscarriage. We see that take a toll on their relationship. And it feels to me, by the way, the nature of her goodbye to him that night, that she has voluntarily signed herself up for this.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
But that she is being kept now. Like, it feels like to me that Dr. Maurer is unlikely to let her go. He's lying to her about what's happening on the inside. Outside, she is asked to leave. She's being told she can't leave. So, however...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
However she was directed into this path, there are some theories already out there that Lumen might have caused her miscarriages in order to push her in this direction. It's certainly within the wheelhouse of the nefarious shit that they do. But whatever pushed her in here, there was a choice that was seemingly hers.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
But now she's trapped in a scenario that she doesn't have the ability to say, I would like to stop now.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I think it's the latter mostly because, again, of that rewatching that scene where she says goodbye to Mark.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And she's like, I could stay. And he's like, no, go. You know, it just seems very much like she knows she's leaving for something. Though I don't believe this episode gives no indication that she thought it meant forever or even for years, you know.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
With a script written for me by one Mr. Rob Mahoney.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
You know, we've cited Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind several times, but I was so reminded of it in... this flashback sequence, watching them go from like the giddiness of, you know, the meet cute and first love and the idyllic early days of their relationship and their marriage into, you know, it's, With the added harrowing infertility story that is part of their story.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
But, you know, you think about... You think about them getting to the point in the relationship where they're, like, at a Chinese restaurant and they can't even talk. You know, we are the dining dead. Like, they can't even talk to each other. Yes. You know? And so... Yeah. There are ways in which Gemma is...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Again, infertility is a very touchy subject, so I don't want to make presumptions for anyone. But inside of this character, inside of this episode, I would say there's certainly something going on there. Our listener Haley wrote in for Tolstoy Corner. Um, and she said, she sort of summed it up this way.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
She said, Tolstoy decided that death, if you lived a true, authentic life, isn't something to be feared. But if you do fear it, it's because you lived artificially or focused on the wrong things. And that can lead us to try to hide from ourselves and death and shut down.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And Ivan at the end of the story quote dies, but because he learned that death isn't something to be feared, he doesn't die at all. Lots of the fear of death and hiding from it can be traced into Mark and lots of the artificial authentic stuff. can be traced into Helly and Helena.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
But what I thought was interesting was the idea that death, the ending of oneself, only happens when authenticity is lost completely. So, like, when we think about Gemma, is Gemma alive? She's alive is, like, the big line at the end of season one.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
It's true. It's true. Okay, so listen. Elsewhere on the Prestige Feed... You and I are covering White Lotus midweek. Bill and Mallory and I are covering White Lotus immediately after the episode drops on Sunday. So you can watch all of that on the Ringer TV YouTube channel as well. We are keeping our eyes on the pit.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And, like, certainly in the spirit of her breaking fingers and trying to escape and saying Mark's name. Yeah. a few times, there are ways in which Gemma is still alive. But there are also indications that, like, when she's getting her sort of vitals read by this nurse played by the great Sandra Bernhardt, great casting. And we'll talk about Robbie Benson as Dr. Bauer in a second. But, like...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
When she's getting her vitals read, one of the questions she asks is like, did you do your reading today? And she's like, yeah, 50 pages. But I was just like, 50 pages isn't nothing. But for an academic, I think of all the like, in terms of showing us their life in the span of just a few minutes of an episode of television.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
the really clever effect of the stacking up the books and the papers and stacking down, which is a huge part of that montage. These are two academics who like fall in love talking about their respective fields. And you really get the sense of what is lost. with these brains when they're neutered and severed into docile complicity.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And so like the, um, the compliance is what I meant, not complicity. So like, so Gemma saying, yeah, I read 50 pages. Like, yes. But like, is she, is she, how much is she still Gemma at this point?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
One of our listeners, Todd, pointed out, and I missed this, that Gemma's a lefty and that Todd was like, there's a particular form of torture of making a lefty write with a fountain pen. It's very true. Because the smear factor is just off the charts. And so she's writing and he's like, the nib is all like upside down and backwards.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And yeah, the writing looks nearly gibberish, which you're right, might be a reflection of...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
declining mind or it might be a reflection of making her write as many uh thank you letters as she wrote i thought that was like sort of a it's always fucking christmas but i thought it was like a really diabolical uh alongside the dentistry uh writing endless thank you notes sounds like absolute torture to me but but overall i think as far as the how alive is jemma question yeah
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
It's a tough hang sometimes, but we are watching it, and we'll be checking back in with that. And then also, we get this question all the time, just to reiterate, Mallory and I are covering Yellow Jackets over on House of R. So if you're looking for Yellow Jackets episodes of Prestige, they don't exist this year, they're over on House of R, because we have a lot going on in this feed right now.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And I think what's interesting to me is I agree with all of that. I think all of that is true. And yet she is more alive than we've seen her so far.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
We believe this is actually physically Gemma. I am sort of out on Miss Casey as a clone theory, like this is physically her body.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I agree. Though I really did like Damon's clone theory. If you want to hear it, I cut it out of the episode just because of that. But you can see it on the YouTube interview. It's pretty solid, except maybe not actually true. But anyway, she's more alive than we've seen her thus far. And so, you know, and this is something I had talked to Damon on the full interview that you can watch, like,
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Previous to watching this episode, so mere days ago, I was like, I think it matters that Miss Casey, that Gemma's dead and she should stay dead and et cetera, et cetera. And now I'm in conflict. And now our love quadrangle polygon has gotten so complicated because at the end of this episode, you're like... Mark and Gemma have to be united.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Like, he wakes up with tears in his eyes thinking about her. She's, like, feebly saying his name, you know, in tears on her way back down to the testing floor. Like, of course they have to be put back together. Yeah. Except we still care so much about Helly. Like, you know, it's this is exactly where they want us, which is deeply conflicted about what the outcome we're most rooting for is.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I really agree.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
It's definitely top five. I'm not sure I'm willing to, like, unsee Crimson Sky yet, but, like, because we did cover Shogun together, but, like, it is definitely top five episode television we've ever covered. And, you know... Probably top three, at least.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And one last thing I want to say about the Damon interview, and I'll say it again later. Rob and I might reference it a little bit as we're talking about it, but it was recorded before either of us had seen
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
But there's a part of her inside... This is why I'm like, I can't fully ascribe to your Gemma is dead theory because... There is a part of her that is alive even inside of Miss Casey that's like, but I... And especially when we flashed to the season one scene where she had been monitoring the MDR team and she was like, I really liked being here today.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Deetian Lockman on the official podcast that dropped this morning was talking about how when we see Miss Casey or when we see Gemma in all of these rooms, it's just her and fucking Dr. Maurer and... Nurse Cecily. And that's all of her interactions. So there's something inside of Miss Casey, even though she doesn't actually know it, that is so happy to be around other people.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
So for the love of coffee, go try them now.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
There's just something inside of her that is still alive and kicking and is Gemma. despite all of the tinkering that they're doing with her brain.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And I told you I was daunted to do this podcast episode with you because I was like, it's too big. Like, how do we talk about everything? There's so much. Let's talk about this. You mentioned that this is, like, this is one of the best episodes of television we've ever covered, if not the best. Part of that is sort of, like, just filmmaking technique.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
So let's talk about what Jessica Lee Gagné does here.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Yes. One thing that they mentioned on the official pod, basically she at a certain point conscripted Ben Stiller to be like her second unit DP. And she gave him a Bolex camera with which if people don't know what a Bolex camera is, it's 16 millimeter. Like one of those things you have to like crank sort of handheld camera.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
It's been used recently in films like Sean Baker's The Florida Project, Ann Biller's The Love Witch, a gorgeous film, Paul Schrader's First Reform, David Lowery's A Ghost Story. So basically like directors who really just want to like flex and show you something cool and weird, they'll go for the Bolex camera.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
So that's something that she decided to use for these, to give us these sort of like warm, golden flashbacks. From a production design standpoint, I think the warmth...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And this sort of like lively clutter of Gemma and Mark's house, not to mention their offices, piled with books and books and books and plans and plans and plans compared to the soulless corporate housing that we have watched Mark exist in for the last season and a half. Is devastating. Like, it's a brilliant point of contrast, you know?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Oh, no.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
You're a blue Valentine kind of guy.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I didn't, it wasn't until the episode that it was over that I was like, wait, that was a, oh, that was a, I usually, as soon as the dead dog wife montage starts, I'm like, oh, here we go. But there was just something like so special about the meet cute, the like the interaction in the office, the ant farm. Do you think the ant farm was a West Wing reference? Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Do you remember that in West Wing?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Absolutely. Before we get to that, can we do like a quick zoom through some emails we got? Where can folks find us, Rob?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
There is no ant farm. And in West Wing, Timothy Busfield's character brings Allison Janity. Yeah, goldfish.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
He brings her a goldfish in a bowl and she's like, I like goldfish crackers. Just a classic misunderstanding. A great moment in TV dating.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Great question. I want to zero in on the plant imagery. Please. We've noted that it is like the land of always winter in and around Kier from what we've watched for a season and a half of this show. Watching, and we've got a Persephone name drop earlier in the season between Devin and Mark, and we talked about that at the time.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
But watching Gemma, like poison ivy plant goddess, you know, surrounded by her house plants or out in the garden with the various flowers that are blooming, like it is springtime.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
So the myth of Persephone is Persephone was stolen away by Hades, dragged down into the underworld, and her mom, Demeter, goddess of the harvest, had to negotiate, basically, shared custody with this asshole who stole her daughter. And when Persephone is above ground, it is summer and springtime. And when she is below ground, it is winter and fall.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
So the fact that it has been land of always winter... Because Gemma slash Miss Casey is below ground, but in our hazy flashbacks, it was springtime. There were plants everywhere. Everything was in bloom when she was around.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
On that note, We did get a note from a listener, Mikhail, mentioning that. So Dr. Maurer, again, I do promise we'll talk about Robbie Benson, the great Robbie Benson, who I was just like thrilled to see and I think is phenomenal in this episode. Maurer means wall in German, is what she pointed out.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And in the musical Hadestown, which is the story of Orpheus and Eurydice and Persephone and Hades all intermingled together. Hades has this, Hades is depicted as this like evil lord of industry. The underworld is this sort of like smokestack filled, gears turning, hellscape of constant working. And he has this whole song about why we build the wall. And basically he is like,
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
We got, dare I say, more emails than ever this week. They just keep coming. And you guys were really quick on the emails this week. So we got a lot of post-Episode 7 emails. We record this the morning after the episode drops. And you guys were burning the midnight oil watching the episode and emailing us thoughts about Russian leadership. literature, all kinds of stuff.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
duped all of the residents of the underworld into believing that they have to build this wall to keep people out and build the wall because work is what gives us meaning and if that isn't lumen i don't i don't know what is you know um wait are you are you telling me capitalism is like a hellscape or a prison bad question mark i don't know joe that seems far-fetched
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
On the be cute front, what do you make... Our listener Molly wrote in saying that she thought it was really... I mean, I loved the way it was done.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
But the fact that when Mark meets... Gemma at the blood drive. He says, who are you? And he says it in this like really sweet sort of like incredulity of like, you are so hot and so smart. Where did you come from? Who are you? Right. So that's all in there. But she was, she made this really interesting connection between that be cute and Mark S meeting Heli are on the table and,
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And how that intake is very much like, who are you? Right? Who are you is like an odd way. It's not like, what's your name? Nice to meet you. I'm Mark. Anything like that. Who are you is not usually how one interacts. But I like that idea is like a connection between the two. If you want to call the Heli sprawled on a table, losing her mind to meet cute. In its way. Yeah, in a way.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I didn't even consider that. My mind went immediately to Vesper Lind in a Bond movie.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Question mark. But wow. Upsetting. Thank you for raising that. I'm sorry. That's okay. But on that front, like talking about Ellie, something that like actually a couple of our listeners pointed out that I thought was interesting was this idea that, you know, if sort of building on something that Damon was talking about in our conversation about this idea of like,
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
If you're attracted as innies, you're going to be attracted as outies. We get this with like our guys, Bervang. We get this with Helena and Mark and Helly and Mark, you know, that there are sparks of flying no matter what the combination is, because there is something in you that is attracted to something in them. Does it mean anything? And again, we got a couple emails about this.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
So we will be getting to that. But in terms of stuff that applies to last week, I hear all of you. You don't want me washing my chicken. I will continue to wash my chicken. Don't worry about it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Does it mean anything that Mark had no real spark with Miss Casey?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And something we should say is there was a line or a line or two about this in season one. I think when he was dating that other woman and like often drunk.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Okay, great point. Oh, creepy. Gotcha. Okay, I know what you're going for. Anyway, I believe there were lines in season one both about having trouble conceiving.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And Mark saying, implying that he was not always the best husband to Gemma. That was all seeded in season one. Can we talk about Robbie Benson?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Robbie Benson is best known to me as the voice of the Beast from Beauty and the Beast. Yeah. But I remember when he was sort of announced or when they, you know, I don't know, I was watching like the Wonderful World of Disney or something as a kid. And it's like Robbie Benson's Voice of the Beast. I remember my mom being like, oh my God, it's Robbie Benson.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Because he was like a heartthrob in the 70s. So 70s heartthrob, Voice of the Beast from Beauty and the Beast to, you know, creep dentist doctor with a wig fetish. Is he a dentist? Creep doctor with a dentist side habit.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
He's not a dentist.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
He is using dental tools as a torture device. And what did I say when we talked about it the first time? I mentioned marathon man and dentists as torturers.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
It was right there the whole time. There's a torture dentist, an alias. This is a well-worn trope. A friend of mine was texting me very excitedly last night while I was trying to put together notes for a fight of her podcast, so I do apologize to him.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I keep a really clean kitchen. Speaking of kitchens... A lot of people seem to think that third oven in Field's kitchen is a microwave drawer. We had a listener, Shane, who is a commercial interior designer, sent us some photographic evidence that that is probably what that is. So does that make you more or less excited about the... The three-door situation in the Fields Kitchen.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
But he was really delighted by the metacasting of the voice of the beast playing this guy who's keeping this woman, a bookish woman, captured in his lair and who sort of believes that they have... A romantic connection beyond his purview as her doctor.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Was their house bugged then? Surely yes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
You were like, break his fingers again, Gemma. Legit. Straight up. On the, like, it was their house bugged front. The I love you, I love you too stolen from their last goodbye in that Nightmare Christmas room scenario is one thing.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Great shout. Here's the other question on the bugging front. This is where we're going to do music corner. We've got three entries to music corner this week.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Alexa... wrote in to say, I've noticed that we've heard the song I'll Be Seeing You by Billie Holiday three times now throughout the series. The first is when Mark is on the date with a doula. Yep. Second is when Mark reassembles the pieces of the torn picture of Gemma.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Now we hear it again in a much more prominent way in episode seven, playing in both the flashback scenes of Mark and Gemma being cute and in love and to their current horrific state
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
being trapped in lumen where the doctor abruptly cuts off the stereo um what do you want to say about that you you mentioned that you wanted to talk about the the doula date like art do you feel like she's a lumen plant like what do you what do you think i think the breadcrumbs are there in a different way than i noticed before at the time that character is presented so empathetically and is one of the few people who seems like an actual human living in cure you're
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Thank you.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Huge problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Such a sharp observation.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
subconsciously in his head whether he wants to move on or not well and how much is that how much of that is lumen at large and how much of that could be harmony herself because harmony sort of off off assignment right was pushing this uh with mark like stealing that scented candle and putting it in the in the room with miss casey you know a girl can't have a hobby so
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I mean, you would think that baking disgusting chamomile cookies would be enough to occupy you, but there you go.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Okay. The third and final music. Okay, so a peek behind the curtain. These episodes drop on Thursday nights. We do have screeners. We can watch them in advance, but we like to record Friday mornings so that we can get emails from you guys and read the Reddit theories and all that sort of stuff like that. Listen to the official podcast.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
But it's like kind of a tight turnaround in terms of like early morning Friday prep. So I was up quite early this morning reading emails. And so it was just not the time of day for my experience that I had with this one email we got. But it's not our emailers fault. So Yael wrote in about the music that's playing during the sort of idyllic flashback montage.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
It's a French song. And he says it's a Jacques Brel song and it is used in this musical. There's a movie musical and a stage musical called Jacques Brel is Alive and Well and Living in Paris. So in the 1975 film adaptation of it, the song Carousel in Severance, it's in French. In the film, it's in English. And a woman is singing it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Okay. Speaking of the decor in the Fields Kitchen, we got several people writing in about the salt and pepper grinders to let us know that, in fact, that collection is quite costly. Yes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And Yael wrote, it honestly kind of gives me strong Waffle Party vibes. It's dark. It's surreal. The characters discover that they are really terrifying marionette versions of themselves. There's a dead puppet master here and so much more. So I watched this video early this morning and it gave me like full body tremors. It is so upsetting.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And I think it's so interesting to, you know, both inside the context of this episode and in that video that I watched. It's on YouTube. You can watch it. Carousel, Ellie Stone, Jacques Brel is alive and well in Paris. The song just gets faster and faster. And so, you know, Yael was pointing out like part of it is like the in and out of the various rooms that Gemma is doing.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Part of it is sort of like this, this worldly exhilaration of, you know, early romance and, between a couple. But there is a deeply sinister quality to this song, which makes it a really interesting choice.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Somehow the creepiest part of Dr. Maurer's whole thing Actually, I don't know. I'm not sure I'm ready to call it. It's a long list. It's the wigs and the costumes. It's so gross. The plane crash one was actually kind of the weirdest one for me.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Even though the Christmas one and the dentist one are also very sinister, it was the way he was having so much fun with this plane crash scenario that just... Really fucking creepy, yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Famed salt and pepper grinders for Dansk. And I should say, I actually own something by Dansk. Do you know what a butter warmer is?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I listened to Dan ask, do you think there's a reason why we cut away before we see Gemma's last name?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
But, yeah, they're at the clinic, so she would probably be Scout at that point. But we don't know what her last name was before they got married.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
He sure does know Helena Egan. What did you think of the sequence we got with Devin and Rickon and the foursome of them together?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Like, the genial nature of Mark saying, yeah, Rickon, what's wrong with you? Like, it's just like, the bitterness isn't there. That impatience isn't there. And this, you know, I had mentioned that I had listened to the official podcast, and the actor who played Rickon was on, and he was like, we don't know what Devin and Rickon's relationship was like before...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Basically, he said that knowing that this scene was coming where we would see what the foursome were like together. We have heard Devin say, we were all very close together, that this is grief for her too. The near silent communication of the news that Gemma is pregnant. So that connection between Devin and Gemma, it was just really...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Do you have time in your life and space in your heart for a little bit more mythology?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
OK, so neither did I until I bought this. Basically, I had a I lived in a place that did not have a microwave in an island or otherwise. OK. And I had like a bone broth habit and I wanted like a cup of hot bone broth in the morning. And I didn't it felt silly to use an entire pot. So I was looking for like a wee pot to put on the stove to warm up some bone broth.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
What are we doing here if not that? Always? Okay. Um... Damon mentioned this concept. It's also a Greek concept. The River of Lethe being this river of forgetting in the underworld. I didn't know this. So fun to learn. I knew about the River Styx. I kind of knew about the River Acheron. I knew about the River Lethe. There's like five infernal rivers.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And I just want to say that the phrase infernal river is the life. But the river of forgetting... In Plato's Republic, it's like the souls of the departed were made to drink the leith before their reincarnation, that they are meant to forget their previous life before they move on to this other life. So is Cold Harbor, is the final step like a full wipe of who Gemma ever was?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
we know the Clean Slate Protocol exists inside of Lumen's network. To go back to that Eurydice play that I was encouraged to read by our listeners, that has a whole plot about drinking from the river of forgetting and what it means to die and forget or die and be forgotten and all of that sort of stuff. So this idea of Gemma...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
To go back to this idea of them like slowly somewhat scrambling her brain is part of this sort of like river of forgetting underworlds. You know, losing touch of who she actually is or ever was just devastating.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
But I do love... And Mauer's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, no problem.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Rob, that's so good. I love it. On the one hand, I love every single syllable you just uttered. On the other hand, I really loved that it was like Gemma nearly saving herself.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
There's so many people who like ended this episode. We got emails or on the internet who were like, oh my God, Mark has to save her. And it's like, yeah, I mean, obviously. It's got to help. She has to be saved. But I was like, but I like it even better if she can save herself. I think that is... Even cooler.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And a butter warmer is essentially like a small enamel pot with like a little wooden handle. Mine is like a red enamel with a little wooden handle. And it is the cutest fucking thing in the whole world. And even though I have a microwave now, I, like, refuse to part. I mean, I presume you warm butter to pour on popcorn. I don't know what you would do with a butter warmer otherwise.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I think that, and also, I mean, we should say the construction of the testing floor, which on the official podcast they talked about at length, that they wanted it to be of a piece with lumen, so it's still, like, all white and bright, but, like, very distinct in terms of, like, we're not doing straight hallways. We've got these weird triangular jutting shapes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And then the lighting, and this was, you know, this was the directors of this episode's idea, um... to do the floor lighting. She was like, the first thing I envisioned in this floor, knowing that Jemma was going to have to do this run through it, was lighting up the floor from underneath so that as she goes, she's lighting up.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
We've seen the overhead lighting, but this is like underneath lighting. And it was visually quite stunning. And here's a quote from the inside the episode that airs after the episode that, That I think is important. This comes from Dan Erickson. He says, what's going on on the severed floor somehow contributes to what's going on down below, but we still don't know why.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
So I know that the Redditors are going to be pouring over every single freeze frame, but we should point out that we've got the four people... who aren't quite the doppelgangers, but still doubles of our MDR team. They're credited, they're billed in the credits as Mark Watcher, Irving Watcher. So their job is to watch our team as our team refines something.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
They're paying attention to things on a granular level, and we love that for them.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Beautifully put. I believe them that there aren't video cameras on the floor anymore.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Because they thought they had a spy, but... That's all gone to shit. Back to book corner, back to academic corner. We actually had a couple emails from listeners about the literary works of George Saunders. Now, I know that you don't like a piece of fiction.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Well, on that note, so George Saunders wrote a book called Lincoln and the Bardo, which is about Lincoln mourning at his son's crypts and Lincoln sort of slipping into a Bardo space. So that's something that was on their mind. And Ben Stiller owns the rights to one of George Saunders' earlier stories, Civil War Land and Bad Decline.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Just, like, if you want some melted butter and you don't want to put it in the microwave. And it's got a little, like, spout on it. So it's, like, a perfect little, like, you could heat it up and then, like, it looks nice. You could pour it. Anyway, that's my butter warmer side chat. Brought to you by Dansk. You can find it on the Food52 website. That was not a free ad. Okay.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
which is about a fucked up workplace, even more fodder for the Civil War theories, Becky writes. But the one that a lot of people have been writing in about is this story called Escape from Spiderhead, which was turned into a really bad Chris Hemsworth film, Spiderhead.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
But this is Becky's description of Spiderhead, quote, shadowy pharma corp with, quote, employees test subjects inside who did not really have the full knowledge, knowing consent of what they were signing up for, So, yeah. What Becky wrote is, I like to think of Severance as what we might have gotten if George Saunders had been asked to write a TV show.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And the one thing I will add to that, I think George Saunders is a great, if you're like, hey, I want to read more stuff that's like, reminds me of Severance. I think George Saunders is a great pick.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And a book that I read that actually I read because Damon Lindelof recommended reading it like several years ago is a book called A Swim in a Pond in the Rain, in which four Russians give masterclass on writing, reading, and life. And this is based on George Saunders, a class he teaches at Syracuse University about Tolstoy, Chekhov, Gogol, and Turgenev. So it's about...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
analyzing their work and how it gets to the root of how we tell stories is a really, really good book. But basically everything I know about Tolstoy, I learned from that book. So I just think it's really funny that Saunders came back around this week in a couple different ways. And all of that is, I just am really grateful for our emails from our listeners.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
It's just really great stuff.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
The book about the Russian masters was really fucking incredible. I read it with a like, I have notes in the margin, which I haven't done since like college. Okay. Last but not least is a theory.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And I would love your thoughts on it. Danielle writes, what do you think of the possibility of Irving being a prior test subject like Gemma currently is and somehow it involved Bert? Severance has been around for 12 years at least, and Gemma has only been there for two years. Thoughts?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
If we get to experience a montage of John Turturro in several different wigs and several different accents and several different costumes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Oh, yeah. I mean. All right. We loved this episode. Anything else you want to say about it before we go to the Damon conversation?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And then on a much more, sort of, Dare I say serious, more serious than a butter warmer level. We got this great email from Zachariah about Mr. Milchick, which I think is really interesting to talk about in the context of this episode when we see him sort of barring the way for Gemma when she is on the verge of escaping the testing floor. Yes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
This is what I've got. All right.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I love that. Thank you so much for doing that work. That is, yeah, it's very, it's very like, Crash, not the terrible best picture winner, but, you know, let's invoke what happened here without showing you specifically like this is how Lumen planted a body or anything like that. You know, what's your big picture?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
It doesn't personally bother me when Chris and Andy don't like a show that I like. Like, I think that's fine. We're all, like, allowed to like different things. I don't need them to like Severance in order for me to like Severance, but I am curious. If this episode moves the needle for them in any direction in terms of how they've been receiving this season.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Because I think that has been part of their critique is like, this feels like clever without being emotional in the way that they might want it to be. And I feel like I've felt, you know, like... the Irving stuff in episode four. Like, I feel like I've had emotional moments. This is a leveling up for sure. I completely agree.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Well, let's go now to our conversation with The Leftovers co-creator, Lost co-creator, Washington co-creator, Damon Lindelof.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And what I wrote in my notes when I saw that, I wrote, after watching Ms. Milchik go through the performance review and the self-flagellation that was the paperclip exercise and the sort of self-beratement in the mirror, all that sort of stuff, I wrote down oppressed oppressor.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I'm so grateful to you for raising my favorite Harrison Ford film. Thank you so much.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
It seems like sparks are flying at the Chinese restaurant.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
At ZooFu.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Yeah. Okay. So we should clarify that you have not seen episode seven as we're recording this.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
You've seen episode six as of I. That's the last one that has dropped at the time of the conversation. At the time we're having this conversation. So you have not, I have not watched episode seven. You have not watched episode seven. We're recording this clean. Chakai Bardo is what that episode seven is called.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Do you want to explain to people who don't know what a bardo is? Because I learned it from you.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I learned it from watching you.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Like what happens when instead of banding together against the person that is oppressing you, you sort of grab onto whatever little shreds of power you do have inside of the system.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I think it's the fourth bardo is the Chakaya bardo.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Like in the Robert Downey Jr. film, Chances Are.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Right, exactly.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Different.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Is it as good as Chances Are with Robert Downey Jr.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Less age-appropriate. Even less age-appropriate.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
But something that Zachariah wrote in sort of specifically about the language component of Mr. Milchick's review is he wrote, my read, someone like Mr. Milchick would have internalized the feeling that he would need to be better, twice as better, three times as better as the queer white children to ever bask in his virtuous light.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
They never move on to the next stage.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
If people haven't seen Lost, and I hear from people all the time that they're just starting Lost the first time.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I hear it like daily and it's amazing and it makes me really happy.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
If people have not watched Lost, the film Jacob's Ladder is another sort of good example of that. That's like Incident at Owl's Creek.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was all a dream. It was all happening while the person was dying sort of idea in that short story.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Correct. Do you want to talk about Bert?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Or are we just... Are we just looking into Christopher Walken always play someone kind of twisty? I mean, he's definitely a bad guy, right? Our guy Bert?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
He honed his vocabulary to showcase his nimble wit and won't ever be put in a position where he's not polished enough, which is why he was knocked down a peg. This is the exact dynamic, I think, that informs this character. And I think the show is actually deeply about race and caste without hardly ever being explicit about it. This also applies to Dylan Gee and Natalie at various times.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
You become the Dylan that your wife met at the beginning of your relationship.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Give me some of that Dylan.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Piping hot.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
If you know your grapes, if you know your varietals.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
If you have a cellar.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Well, here's the thoughts. It's like, I love everything you said about the you you are. Your any is your purest self, not sort of beaten down by life or corrupted by things. that have happened. I like this idea that if you're in love with or attracted to someone in one state, you will be in another state.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And I love this idea that, and this is something that one of our listeners posited with last week's episode, this idea that Mark S, as we see him experience more in his life, The loss of Irving, the betrayal of Helena, stuff like that, is getting closer to— He's, like, getting traumatized now. He's getting closer to Mark, like, the sardonic version of Mark that we know on the outside.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Adam Scott is so good at playing both of those things, and he's moving one character closer to the other as we're doing active reintegration at the same time. Right. Which I think is really interesting.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
What's your big codified theory of severance that you want to lay on me?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And then he goes on to talk about the term uppity, which is like a racially specific term used to sort of put people in their place. But it is a term we heard earlier this season. Drummond use it repeatedly. Drummond used it in reference to Devin. He was like, his sister is much more uppity than he is, talking about Mark.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
It doesn't work out.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
But it is, it's in the water in terms of what's going on with Milchick and Lumen at this time. And in this larger conversation we've been having about like, The severed as people who are considered not human. Right. And all of that. So I really enjoyed that email from Zachariah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And you can just revolve. You can revolve forever.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Innies or outies? Bro.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
They don't have a cord to snip.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
So smooth.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And we belly checked.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Yeah, we got belly checks, but we have not seen Irving's navel.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Yeah, I was going to say, this is Battlestar Galactica territory.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
This is pod people stuff. Okay.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
That's true. Okay, I love this.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
The belly button theory.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Is that what you want to call it?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
The belly button theory. Yeah. Okay.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
We're navel gazing. There it is.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Love it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
But then you get to the leftovers and you're like, let the mystery be.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And saying from the start, we're not going to explain this to you.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I love both The Ending of Lost and Leftovers, as you know. I think I have a slight preference just in general in terms of puzzle boxes or theorycraft or all that sort of stuff for there to be a question that I, the audience member, have to answer for myself in terms of what I believe. Do you know what I mean?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Which is like what The Leftovers gives us is like a question that we can decide. Choose your adventure of what the ending of this is. And you might feel differently the next time you watch it through. Right. You know? And so then you are an active participant in the crafting of the story. And I think that is like, among other things, the genius of The Leftovers.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And so for something like Severance, I get really worried and protective of theory craft shows. I get really worried and protective of shows that have... booming Reddit threads going because I am worried that nobody's going to be satisfied with what the ending is.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And so that's why I almost prefer to a certain degree that we never quite exactly know, you know, but that will piss off, you know, its own subset of people.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
When you get explicit, seemingly explicit references to Lost on this show, like when people are like, hey, those are the numbers. What does that do to you as a Severance fan?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
There are the numbers on their lockers.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
The MDR team, in the scene when they are all going into their lockers and going down the elevator one by one, each person had a lost number on their locker.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
This is new information for you.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Dan Erickson, who runs the show.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I also watch Lost.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And so, and now- You didn't invent the nosebleed as like a ticking clock on something.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
She's good, right?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
The locker numbers are 4, 16 and 23.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
That's not a coincidence. Sometimes we're reaching for the lost references and sometimes they are just there. So this last question might come from either Rob or me, who's to say, we as a collective, Rob and Joanna, would like your take on the Luca trade on the record.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
All right, this week's episode is Chakai Bardo. I am pronouncing it pretty close to how it's pronounced in the show, but if my valley girl Chakai sounds like a little off, you can let me know. Directed by a cinematographer, Jessica Lee Gagné. This is her directorial debut, but she is this sort of main DP for the last season and a half of Severance.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And specifically, in your professional opinion, as someone who has wrestled with the infinite mystery of the universe, how could this have possibly happened?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
It's a mystery box.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
You said that so grudgingly and is.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
But you do have a conspiracy theory about this trade. However the game goes tonight. Weren't you saying outside?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I love you.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
You should check for a belly button.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Okay, great.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Well, I hope that happens for all of us.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
It's a violation if they don't tuck?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
To be untucked. Okay.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Okay. So... If Luca flashes his belly button to the camera at the Laker game tonight, everyone will know why. It will be Damon Lindelof's work. Thank you so much, Damon Lindelof, for coming on the podcast. We appreciate you.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And you'll be back for our podcast on House of R?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Yeah, yeah, yeah. With Mallory.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I do. All right. Thanks. Bye. Wow, what a good chat that was. That's my best impression of Adam Scott at the end of all the interviews on the Severance podcast. Damon's the best. Thanks so much to Damon and Linda for coming in and having a chat with us.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Again, you can see that full interview where we talk about some things that did not quite pan out in episode seven, but it's still fun to talk about anyway. Of course. On the Ringer TV YouTube channel.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And I feel like she really showed up and splashed out with the visual, like the flashback visuals and everything. We'll talk about some of the specifics there. And then written by Dan Erickson, series creator, and Mark Friedman. I want to start here, Rob. What do you, Rob, think happens in this episode?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
We both wanted you here, and let's do it again when you're down here and we're all in the same place, maybe.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Okay, sounds perfect. Thank you to Justin Sales for his tireless work on this very vibrant and busy feed. Similarly to John Richter, who has been working his tail off on the video side of everything. And to our guy, Kai Grady.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Who is just the best and did incredible work turning that Damon interview around and all sorts of stuff. So we will see you for White Lotus next week. And for severance again and again and again. And here we are in the carousel of content. See you soon. Bye.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Because I think there is some, though not a lot, of potential wiggle room in terms of interpreting what we see. What's your interpretation?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
OK, let's say, do you believe everything we see on the testing floor is actually what is happening on the testing floor?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Me too. Do you think that everything we saw in flashback form, was that Mark POV or was that Gemma POV or was that some sort of combination of the two?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Do you think... That sort of collective, unconscious combination of the two approach the flashback. Does that sort of help us understand why Mark might be uniquely qualified to refine Gemma, if that is in fact exactly... We'll get into sort of the specifics of what we may think is happening in the refining process.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
But do you feel like that underlines that sort of connection, collective memory, collective emotional experience that they share?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Damon will explain it, as you mentioned, in a bit more detail. But how does all of this jive with your understanding of the concept of the bardo?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
It's early, Rob. I'm not going to make you talk about what is your concept of death.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
She also mentions ego death. Yep. And do you want to talk about where we've seen that card before?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Thank you.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And Gemma just got it in the mail, man.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
All right. Basically, we're taking, so this idea of the bardo, which is this liminal space between life and death. And again, once again, Damon Lindelof will do a great job of, explaining in more detail what that is. But we could interpret... We could apply that to... to Mark, who's on the verge of collapse, you know, throughout this episode.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
He's... After hitting the floor pretty hard last week, like... There are there is a version of the story where he doesn't make it on the other side of this episode. And and then also Gemma, who is post death of a kind.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Living out her afterlife. And this idea of the Bardo as a space where you will meet all the people you ever knew in your life or versions of yourself, I guess, is sort of more applicable to what is going on here. I like to think of this as like a new circle of hell, the testing floor. We've been talking about lumen or, you know, the severed floor as, as an underworld, as a hell sort of space.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And this is just like another, another trip to another circle, uh, in, in the Dante sense of hell. And our, our listener Katie wrote in, this is her recap of what she feels like is happening on the testing floor.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
She also recommends we watch the OA, uh, You know, especially if we are like fiending for more Jason Isaacs in our life. She says, is this Lumen's game to sell severance to the masses to cut out plane rides? Did you have a moment where you're like, plane rides? We talked about that on the podcast.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Like that we were joking about it and they're like, no, but seriously.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
To sell severance to the masses, to cut out plane rides, root canals, abusive family dynamics, sexual trauma is Lumen's future one where everyone has a chip in their head and brothels are legal again because who cares? The women won't remember what you do to them. No pain meds for surgeries or procedures because those are risky and expensive. Better to just do it while severed.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And we're here to talk to you about a doozy of an episode of Severance. We have a lot to get to. I could do this for hours, literally, but we will try to do it in our usual allotted Prestige time.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Yeah, so once again, a spooky new layer to our What Would You Sever game that we've been playing. And I mean, this is my interpretation. There's a couple options here. I think that seems to be the main one. Or because we saw in season one a woman who sort of severed herself out of her labor experience, right? So that's an option. But also, in terms of having a workforce that you sever...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
This episode of the Prestige TV podcast is brought to you by Coffee Mate. Coffee Mate has been searching the globe for flavors that pair perfectly with coffee. So when they heard that the new season of HBO's The White Lotus was set in Thailand, they were inspired to brew up two new flavors, Thai iced coffee and piña colada flavored creamers. They're available for a short time only.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I've also heard it's 76 minutes long 76 minutes long correct episode 10 76 minutes long so we will be breaking down that that next week and that finale episode is going to drop Thursday night so like right after the finale airs this podcast we usually do this on a Friday morning this podcast will be up Thursday night next week.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
uh dylan no okay and then here's my fave personally on the pod on the official pod this week which was like not the most uh i i i think i got the least out of this particular official pod um not out of entertainment but like i think they're just holding all their cards very close to you have to right here before the finale so i understand why
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
But their interview this week was Sydney Cole Alexander, who plays Natalie. And she had this really interesting part where she was talking about early in the season, the two encounters between Natalie and Milchick, when Milchick is trying to have this sort of like... hey, have you, a person of color, had this same experience as I, a person of color? Can we find fellowship and common cause here?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And what Sidney Cole Alexander said is that she as an actress made this choice to lean into Natalie's what she called light-skinnedness to say, no, we are not the same, you and I. I am a light-skinned person of color and you are not. And that makes me different slash different. quote unquote, like better, like in the warped imaginations of a Natalie. So could a Natalie be a secret Egan?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Okay, so to recap, it's Rickon.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And unfortunately, perhaps Harmony has, you know, mothered a secret or acclaimed Egan. Okay, so that has been the stomach-churning game of Secret Egan. If you have... nominations for this bleak bleak game uh you can email us at pineapple bobbing at gmail.com or prestige tv at spotify yeah who else could it be like like mark w secret egan alia alia shawkat secret egan yeah yeah yeah um sure um
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
He's a continental traveler.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
That's true. Okay. Let's go sort of person by person as we go through this episode because everyone is kind of siloed into their own story by design. We are meant to say, wow, Milchick's plan of basically decimating the MDR camaraderie has certainly worked.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And everyone's in their own little side plot. But let's start not with a member of the MDR team. Let's start with Milchick.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Milchick v. Drummond. Drummond. This is an incredible encounter, obviously. What do you think that the only reason he wasn't fired on the spot is because of this intensive pressure around the completion of Cold Harbor?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
But we have a bonus episode next week because we just want to like squeeze every last drop of milk out of that goat, I guess. I hated it, too. So Wednesday at noon Pacific. Rob and I are doing like a live Q&A mailbaggy thing on YouTube. So we'll have links up in our socials and stuff like that. But you can find us on Ringer TV, the YouTube channel.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
No other way he would not be fired on the spot for what he did here, right?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
way way too cute I kind of agree with you even though my understanding is that it is quite popular a moment among people a satisfying thing to say to one's horrible boss but somehow less satisfying than eat shit yeah Were you, fellow Buffy head, reminded of – because our listener Vinny pointed out that when he says to put that monosyllabically, he then follows it with monosyllables.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Like, it's not my fault what Mark Scout does when he is not at work. It's yours, right? Yes. Did it remind you at all of Buffy and Spike out for a walk?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Bitch. I'm always thinking about Spike when I can. I kind of agree. So there's a few callbacks inside of this episode. This is more of a resolution, not a callback. But there's a few moments that call back in ways that satisfy me. This episode ends with She's Alive, which was the cliffhanger ending of the season one finale.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Nothing tops the season one finale of the slow-mo.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
But, you know, there's a couple different callbacks and some work and some don't. And, yeah, some feel a little too cute for me. And I'm inclined to agree with you. As for Miss Wong, who is sent to Gunnell Egan's Empathy Center in Svalbard where she will work to steward global reforms. Yeah. this feels to me like a Milchik call rather than a Lumen call.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
This is Milchik being like, you hung me out to dry. You narked on me. I do not like having you here. I'm sending you to Svalbard, which if you thought it was cold and dreary and cure, wait till you get a load of Svalbard. That's tough. Anything you want to say about
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
It's a classic rebranding.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Let me tell you my inside baseball reason why I think this is the last we see of Miss Wong. How soon do you think it's going to be until we get Severance season three?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
We will be... You can email us your questions, Rob. Where can they reach us for this podcast?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Yeah, this is a classic. This is a classic. I source this back to the TV show Lost where they had a kid in the first season and then he just got really tall and they had to sort of contort the plot to write him out of the show. Tall Waltz. So this happens all the time on shows when you cast kids. This is why allegedly the Harry Potter actors for the potentially ill-advised HBO show. Who's to say?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
HBO show that they're making. Um, I think they're making it like back to back to back to back because those kids are going to grow and they have to try to like outpace them. So, um, Miss Wong, the actress who plays Miss Wong, uh, Sarah Bach, I believe has just enrolled in college.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And she was talking about like, was it Britt Lauer? It was like one of one of her one of the castmates.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Who like recommended her like that she check out Northwestern.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Yeah. Britt Lauer rec letter for Northwestern. But like, yeah, I mean, you know, anyway. Okay. I feel like that's probably the last we'll see of Miss Wong, and I think your idea of her as a mystery sponge is one thing, but I think mostly it's just to sort of show... And I could be wrong. They seem to really like her, but I think it's meant to show... Yes, the history of child labor at Lumen.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Sure. And then also, yeah, the potential insidious future. We talked about this in the previous pod, this idea that's floated in one of the newspaper clippings about Lumen experimenting with severing as young as five.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
So in terms of like that degree of child labor. Yeah. Grim. Quite grim.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
So... So you can send your theories, your questions, your queries there.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
A smidge less ether?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I feel like we've got more... With the potential clearing out of a number of other characters, Milchick is primed to be in the mix next week. And so I hope there's something more than plot for him to do.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Who among us hasn't stared at a too small iceberg photo on the wall to inspire us to give grace to our colleagues, as they call in? Should we throw one up in the void? Yeah. For me here, some ambiance here in the void.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I also really like that Mark's like, I just need the day. I'm not sick. I just need the fucking day. I support it. OK, so let's let's turn from those plot lines to something more overtly emotional, which is like Irving and Dylan. We'll talk about them one by one. But I wanted to group them together here because I'm going to go ahead and call in front of the pod.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Alan Sepinwall was talking to me about this episode and I was like expressing some of my frustrations. He pointed out, and I really like this point, that like Irving and Dylan inside of this episode exist as this sort of like
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
cautionary tale for the love triangle quadrangle polycule that we're tracking with mark and his various ladies oh yeah previously harmony cabal said quite memorably that there's no honeymoon ending waiting for mark right and that hasn't stopped us from trying to like do the math that will make it work out there's a lot of math involved though the geometry is getting increasingly complex
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
How can Gemma be happy and Helly be happy and maybe even Helena be happy and all the Marks be happy? You know, and what we see here with the absolute dissolution of the Dylan Dylan Gretchen love triangle.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And the Irving, the Berving. You want to you want to give us.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Rob, it's incredible. Thank you.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
No, thank you. And then Irving and Bert and this sad ending for them. I do want to talk about this. You mentioned feeling more emotional. I got really wound up by the Dylan stuff. The birthing stuff.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
That sounds great. So, yeah. So live Q&A on Wednesday at noon Pacific. Thursday night drop for the finale pod. And then we'll have a follow-up pod for you guys at the beginning of the next week where we can engage with all of your emails, your reactions to the finale, all that sort of stuff. And we might have something more to do, but we will reveal that as it comes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Well, it did and it didn't. Okay, so we're in... I had texted you before you saw the episode that there was like an unexpected say nothing crossover.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
But what I meant was...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Yeah. That they took a plotline of a main character of Say Nothing and this idea of how implicated are you in the dirty deeds if you're just driving the people to the place where they get shot or otherwise mangled or buried. So it turns out that... Burt, as we expected, is an enforcer of some kind for Lumen.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
A hench. But has such like unexplained feelings for Irving that he is trying to smuggle him out of, uh, cure before Drummond can do anything to him. Right. Yeah. So they go to this train station, which they filmed in, but still are pronounced at Utica. I've always pronounced it Utica, but I think he's right.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And I'm wrong anyway, in, in, in Utica on the East coast, there's a, there's a Utica in California as well, but that's not where they were. Um, and then they say goodbye. And there is this, uh, Here's what I'll say. I am a huge crier at TV shows. You know this about me. I've told you that I cry during episodes of The Pit.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Are you a TV crier, Rob? I don't know that I know if you are.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
So the callback that you're referencing here is in season one, episode six in the plant room, Irving and Bert share this moment where Bert is like, hey, there's nothing in the handbook that says we can't have lip to lip contact. And Irving's like, well, actually, blah, blah, blah. And Burt kind of goes for it. Irving says, I'm truly sorry, but I'm just not ready.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And Burt says, and rewatching that, this scene actually kind of got choked up. The season one, episode 16. Yeah. The way that Walken as Burt delivers, just stay, stay here with me. So I'm not ready. Just stay here with me. Versus I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm ready. Bert saying Bon Voyage, buddy.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Yes. There's more tender stuff. But like versus just stay here with me. Bon Voyage, buddy.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
But no, no, no. I'm not I'm not I'm not anti the writing of it. It's it's a crushing.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Attempt at, you know, distancing himself from intimacy to say buddy. Yeah. All of that sort of stuff. I will say this. I feel like I'm kind of an easy mark for a cry. And thinking about, you know, some of the shows that I love the most, some of the shows that you and I, like, thinking about The Leftovers and thinking about, like, if you think about a moment like this in The Leftovers...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
given the way that they built all of those stories, I would be like sobbing through this. This would be devastating. And there is, you know, and Chris and Andy have been flagging this all season. There is this sort of like, Slightly antiseptic quality. I will bout to reverse completely when we get to Dylan. I will talk about that in a second.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
So that's all of our severance plans. In addition to the ongoing White Lotus coverage, Rob and I dipped into the hit this week. Rob, this is our third Prestige episode together this week. Do you have any takes left in you, or did you reserve some takes for Severance, or are you all taped out?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
But there is a slightly sort of like chilly quality that kept me at a slight remove. And I wanted to just sort of like... be devastated and feel it and be swept away by it. But that's sort of like where I sat with it. How about you?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I think, again, Damon Lindelof put this really well when we were talking to him about it, this idea of your soul is your soul is your soul, whether you're an innie and an outie. And if you are drawn to someone as an innie, you're going to be drawn to them as an outie. See also Helena and Mark at the Chinese restaurant. This is just sort of like idea of a connection that transcends whatever.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I do think he feels that and has this obligation to fields or this understanding that there's nothing they can do because Lumens would never let this happen and it would put Irving in danger and all this sort of stuff like that. So I think he is feeling it, not just like – Honoring it intellectually, but feeling it emotionally. That's my understanding of it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
So for the love of coffee, go try them now. Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And it's I love like bittersweet is such a good description of it. I love it. They wanted to, but they didn't. That's a really good storytelling mode that I absolutely love. The brief encounters sort of thing. So again, I just sort of expected to feel much more than I wound up feeling. I don't know. Maybe... Maybe the pit sort of just like drained it out of me.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Absolutely. Listen, there are some questions that still need to be answered in terms of like, who is he talking to on the phone this season? Yes. Like all that sort of stuff that that makes me feel like we should see him again.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
But also Totoro has been saying things in interviews all season that makes it sound like he here's what here's actually what I think the state of affairs is.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Totoro is not sure if he wants to come back. So they've done an Apple-esque save, like we put him on a train and we could bring him back if we need to, or that's the last time we've seen Irving.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I would be devastated, honestly. Yeah, I would be really crushed if we did not get any more Irving, but it's possible.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
He talked about how much he hated... A sad thing, I think, for all of us is we haven't seen the MDR team together since the Orpo, right? And we haven't seen them together in the office since episode three, which is what we initially understood to be the premise of the show. And they bent over backwards to... to contort the plot, to get them all back together, but for one episode, you know?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
So when we see, and we're meant to feel that when we see Heli alone at the four desk, you know, set up, like we're meant to feel that, but Totoro has said a number of interviews, how much he hated specifically filming under the lights of the office. So I wonder if like Totoro's like, I'll come back, but you're not putting me on that office set for more than like a few days.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And I should say that Mallory Rubin, when watching this episode, texted me five minutes in and she's like, is Radar going to be okay? You need to tell me this before I watch more of this episode. Our listener Elena probably wrote in, with a fun fact that I didn't know, the dog who plays Radar is also the dog who played Mondale on Succession.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
The dog is named Ditto, a very good boy, playing both Radar and Mondale. So here's the question from Alina. Okay. Is this dog better off with Berving, but it won't be, so I guess with Irving on a train going somewhere, or with Shiv and Tom?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Well, you notoriously love to dissect an egg into uncomfortably small pieces and eat it in front of your dad? Even the egg cutter.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Like the tiniest crate for that dog despite so much room in their house.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Devastating. Devastating for our guy Irving. You know, how old is John Turturro in his 60s, would you say? Seems fair guess. To have, you know, someone like that say, like, I've never experienced romantic love at all in my life.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
As an outie. And then we get to Dylan and Innie who says to Gretchen, like, my life started when I met you. Yeah. I did not exist before you. And she's like, sure you did. And he's like, nope, it was just finger traps and erasers. And that was it. It was nothing, you know?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
So I think it's really poignant to have both an Audi in Irving and an innie in Dylan be like, I've never, this is my first like brush up against the concept of love.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
What a heady, powerful thing it is. And to think about every innie on the show, Helly and Mark definitely included, um, Every relationship we've seen, this is like first love, which is like an extremely potent brew, to quote Molly Rubin. So Dylan and Gretchen and Dylan.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Nice Mickey 17 reference. I feel like there's a way these crazy kids could have made this throuple work.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
But I mean, I'm with any Dylan. Like, why wouldn't he be happy that, you know, we all get to... I don't know.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I don't either. There are some kitchen implements where I'm just sort of like, we don't need this. And it makes me uncomfortable.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
That she can tell the difference between Audi Dylan and any Dylan. And she likes any Dylan better is what you're saying.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
She doesn't say better.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And she's keeping it secret for a reason. Here's my Sunshine and Lollipops hopeful sort of, once again, representing the Bay Area pro-thruple argument. We love a polycule. Isn't there a way in which any Dylan and Gretchen interactions could, like, Help reawaken Gretchen's connection to Audi Dylan. Remind her what she loved about him in the first place.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And remind her to look for those things in him in his Audi version, not just him being Deeply inept around the house and all the other things that are true about him. Do you know what I mean? Like, yes. Or, you know, and this is certainly what Audi Dylan is afraid of. She gives up on Audi version entirely because she's got access to any Dylan like for sure. That's the fear.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
But I feel like there's a way in which. All of this could make a rising tide could raise all boats and we could all sort of like get something out of this. Again, I'm trying to force a honeymoon ending for fucking someone in this debacle. And Dylan and Gretchen and Dylan are like, I don't know, maybe my my best option here, but maybe not.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Okay, I have a follow-up question for you on this.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
i just here's what i think and admittedly i've never been inside a love triangle with myself and my wife but like with the other version of you that your wife told you not to worry about yeah yeah don't worry about it um but like are we not all being a bit hasty like gresham breaks the news these are matters of the heart joe they they happen in hasty fashion
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
What about, like, citrus juicer?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Can't we just say, hey, listen, we got to pump the brakes on this for a second. You're out. He's having a hard time with it. I'm going to keep talking to him about it. Let's see how we feel. He's threatening to quit, which is effectively killing any Dylan, right? Like, I'll kill him, essentially.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
So I understand why Gretchen would be like, I got to put the stop to this to save you, essentially. But I just feel like there's a way. I mean, I understand we're inside of a TV show and it's full of drama. But like, isn't there just a way that we could all just like take a beat, go to some couples counseling? But who's going to the counseling?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Helena had a conversation with Heli.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
No. Okay. We're going to come back to that. Also, the heartbreak. Dylan, Zach Cherry, like screaming Gretchen. The proposal with the ring.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Beautiful stuff from our guy. This is the second podcast this week. I'm going to say this, but... any Dylan hidden Swifty paper rings. Who's to say, um, I say yes, but, um, yeah, very, very sad stuff.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
That's the loophole I thought you were going to find.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Um, that's a great question.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Severance, with love and respect, is so inconsistent on this front. We've talked about this. Alia Shawkat being like, what does wind feel like?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Versus like, they know how to dress themselves. You know what I mean? It's just sort of like, there's just like, what do they retain? And earlier in the season, we did get like long emails from brain scientists who were just sort of like, this is how memory works or whatever.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
like taylor swift might be a big enough cultural event that it could sort of permeate on you yeah bigger than wind taylor swift bigger than wind there i said it okay um let's talk about the eagans um the not so secret eagans um egg egg stuff go is what i wrote here uh in this we've already talked about the egg stuff a bit um one of our listeners francesca pointed out that helena was eating the uh taking small cuts and only eating the boiled white the outer yeah
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
The outie of the egg.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I've never heard your accent come through stronger than on the word yolk.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Do you know that I used to – I worked in a bakery and – I didn't know this. Yeah, just briefly when I was a teenager. And we had this thing that I loved that was almost like a pencil sharpener where you basically like stab the apple onto it and you like crank it and it peels the apple. And it was just for like mass apple peeling for like various like strudels and pies and stuff like that. Okay.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Okay. And then our listener who signed the email Ted word. So I'm just going to take them for their word that that is their name. Okay. Says, would you rather eat a raw egg while Jamie Egan watches you or watch Jamie Egan eat a raw egg in front of you?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I would rather you had taken it raw.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I wish you'd take them raw. Please. That's what he said.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Or even I let's. Or loudly moan. How about no moaning at the breakfast table?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
A no moan zone at the breakfast table.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Okay. Do you think he is not eating himself? Because of his revolving procedure?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
It's soylent. Soylent in blood bags. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Okay, great. Okay. This is what Dan Erickson said in the post-episode thing that went up on Apple after the episode credits. He says, Jamie Egan is never going to give her the foundational love that we all need in order to be human beings. Duh. I mean, like, I could have told you that, but not duh to him, but like, is this something Helena is only just realizing as she is
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Bisecting and bisecting and bisecting a boiled egg in front of her creepy, creepy father after her coal plunge swim.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I mean, not to be like an absolute rube, but you can also just like take a boiled egg and take a bite of it, right?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
With, like, yolk crumbs coming out. Of course.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
That's simply a no for me. Listen, this is a big day for Jamie again. Everything. It's all coming. It's all culminating around whatever's happening with Cold Harbor, et cetera, et cetera. We don't really understand what it is.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I think they have to complete Cold Harbor. Yes. So that he can revolve. Yes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Pretty sick stuff, but no egg cutter. You mentioned the cold, frosty environs that we find all of our Egans and otherwise in. One last note on sort of timing of next week. Our listener Zach wrote in to point out that the season two finale is airing on March 21st, which is the spring equinox, a.k.a. the day in mythology that Persephone emerges from Hades and begins spring.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And I don't know how those two things are related, but that's what feels true to me. And as Harmony points out in this episode, in that process, Gemma is either literally or at least figuratively dead. As good as dead.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Yeah. What did she say exactly? Um... She says, and if you've completed it, well, well, what? She's already dead. But, like, she's already dead, honestly, in a show like Severance could mean, like, a number of things. Do you know what I mean?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
On this idea of, like, revolving who sits with Keir, all this sort of stuff like that. One of our listeners wrote in to underline the fact that in episode eight, when our favorite character, Sissy, is talking about like the rooms in the house, she says that room stays shut until all who remember her sit with Kier.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
So the idea of sit with Kier as a phrase just meaning dead. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Pass on. Yeah. I think that's just something. Again, that's just sort of like.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
flowery language to think about when we parse whatever they're trying to say of like be at my side of my revolving like what is that what does that mean you know in the in the language of this world um helly you already mentioned the dylan helly conversation which i thought was really good dylan identifying the most hurtful thing that he could possibly say to her um but her being the kind of person who's like fuck it i'm gonna do this but her being like irving did know the difference
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And what did Irving want? Irving wanted us to figure out what was going on with the elevator. So I'm going to do this thing that Irving wanted. Yeah. And that is her goal. She's the last faithful to use traitor's language left at the cubicle. And then here comes dad to say, my helly, you tricked me. Yeah. Okay.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
That's deeply true. I wish you had taken it raw. Okay. So like, um, my hell, you tricked me. Do you think this is just a reference to the season one finale, uh, where she did indeed trick him there?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
On the one hand, yes. And thank you for using the proper Silicon Valley language. On the other hand, tricked is such an interesting word.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Right. Like you let me down. You lie. You know, like you lied to me. Like something like that. Like you didn't follow through something, something, something. But like you tricked me speaks to like a level of truth.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
deception which is not really the case here it's just a fail a failure yeah if you want to call it that you know so that's me that's why i thought maybe he was talking about and he calls her heli he does call her heli you know but did but did he call his daughter helena at one point heli right like maybe that's why she this heli was heli in the first place I don't know.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I don't know the answer to that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I haven't had my soy late this morning. It's very early, Rob. I don't know what to tell you. Okay. Anyway, anything else you want to say about Hallie, Helena... How is she going to get out of this one sort of situation that we find her in?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
It's also full moon this week, and it's full moon on White Lotus this week as well, so I don't think they're planning any of this. I don't think so either, but if they are... The Northern Californian in me loves to talk about it, so, you know. Okay, so let's start with big picture thoughts on the episode. Rob... Last week's episode, episode eight, was, I would say, quite controversial.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Not the goat people.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Dream bigger than the goat people.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
You hated the goat people.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I feel like what we really should have seen in this episode is Dylan and Helly go... prowling in o and d for new partners you know what i mean a little mixer yeah well o and d mixer let's let's put on those like the the dance lights yeah let's crank up the music people in that department so many and you can make anything you need for a proper like date mixer setting That sounds great.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Now compare that to the little shit tunnel that they had to crawl through to get to the goat people. And I think the choice is obvious.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Okay. Harmony, Devin, Mark.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Let's start on a high. Let's start on a high.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
With the sarcasm twist. Who do you think had the better zinger?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Was it Devin saying, sorry, the wind was whistling over the hole in the back of your skull, so I didn't quite get that? Or was it Mark...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
saying to harmony oh my god so good my wife is being held at lumen and i just had brain surgery in my basement who is the better uh wielder of of the snark uh in this episode rob it's got to be mark just because i can see party down adam scott coming out to play and he's always welcome here so good 100 party down
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Very good. Very good. Um, okay. So I, I'm very frustrated by this, but I'm hopeful for a payoff in the finale, but I do feel like quite sort of strung along by what happened inside of this episode with this trio, uh, or actually, uh, square of people. Um, Something that I did like. I didn't like the, like, let's hang out all day and not talk about anything.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
maybe she brought some ether and they all like, you know, give us some, like hook us up, please. But when, when we are in Mark, any marks, Mark S's perspective, when he comes into the birthing cabin. Yes. And he's like, what the fuck? And he tries to like walk out the door. And Devin says, if you walk out that door, he's just going to come right back in again. Okay.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Of course, this is like a call back to Hallie and Helena.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
in a way that could feel overly cutesy. But to me, I really, really liked it because... Unlike – so the thing with Irving that pings for me slightly is like it's outie Irving saying something that builds upon something innie Irving said. Yeah. And I guess in like a deeply romantic sense you could say he just knows that he wasn't ready before and he's ready now or something like that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
So let's put that two aside. And I'll say here Devin has no way of knowing that this is like something that they have said to Helly or Helena on the floor. She's not consciously referencing anything. But what they are doing in the pursuance of their goal is, like, using the weapons, like, the machinations of their enemy.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
People felt pretty divided on it. A lot of people felt quite negative on it. How are you? You know, and we we said it wasn't our favorite episode, but I thought we found a lot of like good stuff.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
They are treating any mark as, like, someone without autonomy in order to get what they need, which is to get to Gemma.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Are they still heroes that I'm rooting for? Yes. But, like, you know... What will they stop at to get to their goal? And when we've seen people treat innies as like prisoners or people with no choice of what to do, those have been villains. So what are we to make when maybe our most beloved character, Devin, is the one doing it? You know what I mean?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
She knows what Cold Harbor is and Mark certainly doesn't.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
We certainly don't.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
The only pushback I have on that is like the thing that Mark has that Harmony doesn't and it's the reason why he's been able to get away with any Mark, been able to get away with so much is like some ineffable understanding of the numbers that you need to complete Cold Harbor.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
You know what I mean? I don't know how you interrogate that in a meaningful way. But yeah, you're right that the woman who fucking invented severance and has run the severed floor and knows the ins and outs of lumen has much more intel. This is the one thing that Indy Mark has that she doesn't have. Though, again, I don't know if he knows even how to explain what he's done with Cold Harbor.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
How did you feel about episode nine? Where are you sitting with this?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I thought we got some really interesting feedback from... actually two Mikes, one who went by Mike and one who went by Michael. Mike wrote, and maybe they're innie and outtie, who knows, but Mike wrote, I'm just as confused as I'm sure all the other viewers of what the fuck is going on with this quote reintegration of Mark.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Each episode since the long needle in the brain has given us hardly any Mark time. But when we do see him, we get no reintegration reveal outside of the one right before he passes out, which seemed like some sort of info dump overload. So like the idea of giving us we were like, holy shit, they did reintegration for Mark at the beginning of the season.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Where are we now? Yeah. You know, like this many episodes later. Still sort of twiddling our thumbs waiting for this whole thing to come together. So which I am feel pretty confident it will in the finale in a way that will probably smooth over a lot of these like minor bumps and scrapes along the way.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
But it's just like in the current and this is the only time this will be true because after that finale airs ever after people can just like binge the season and will not feel this sort of like mid-season antsiness. But as it stands right now, the cadence of the reintegration reveal is like,
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Okay, to recap, no moaning at the breakfast table. Nope. If you've got a hole in your head, you get to sit in the front of the car. Is that unreasonable? It's despite the cloak and dagger of the sort of operation that they're in. Are you saying we, okay, and I'm not opposed to it. Are you saying we should have slapped a wig on Mark and put the baby bump under his shirt?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Okay, great. I would love to see it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
No room in the rabbit at all. Okay. Michael wrote, and this made me laugh, maybe the Cure Lumen is really working on as a way to make people not slow down to 110 speed every time they say the words cold harbor.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Cold Harbor. Anything else? I think we've gone a little long and we've got plenty that we want to save for like our Q&A and stuff like that. Anything else you want to touch on in terms of this episode, Rob Mahoney?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And it's why more than ever I don't want Helena slash Helen to be pregnant because that's interesting. But I would like there to be some women – female characters on the show where that is not – It's an ambitious goal, Jo. Okay. Thanks. Thanks for rooting for me. Before we go, this listener asked to not be named but I didn't.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
We got an email from a listener telling us to check out the track In the Bath by Lemon Jelly. Did you have a listen?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
One minute into that track. It's a long track. It's a six-minute track. One minute in. If you care to listen on Spotify, wherever you get your music, you'll hear... the severance theme song, a very familiar, uh, progression of notes. And I haven't been able to find an interview where the composer like references this song. Um, so I don't know. That's it's, it's interesting. Uh, you know,
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
is it a direct inspiration is it the collective unconscious is it an Indian Audi and alternate lives in music lemon jelly actually the Audi of the any that is the composer you never know the severance theme uh shout out to the severance music it's amazing and and like this this idea consistently yeah lifting a little bit a few notes from something happens all the time obviously one might call it art you know that that's this was how this stuff is made a lot of the time
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
It is a wild moment. You're like in this vibey track and then all of a sudden you're like, oh.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Why do I have a compulsion to not eat any eggs in front of anyone ever again? All right. So, pineapplebobby at gmail.com.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Ringer TV on YouTube is where you'll find us next week at noon for a live Q&A. Prestige TV at Spotify.com is where you can also send questions, comments, concerns, theories, observations. We have a few like sort of bigger picture observations that are less than Theory Corner that I want to save for that. So I'm excited to get to that. We've had so many amazing emails from you guys this season.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
It's been really incredible.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I'm really excited to talk to you about like how well those emotional moments hit or not for me as we go through. But I agree. I had like table setter in my notes here. I had checking in on plot lines we've been away from for three weeks. Only to sort of clear the deck of players because there's a version of the finale where we don't see Irving, Bert. Miss Wong or maybe even Dylan.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Thank you to the early morning crew on this, our last Severance Friday morning record. So thanks to John Richter, to Justin Sales, to Johnny Beach for filling in for Kai. And thanks to Rob Mahoney.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Yeah. Make sure to eat your yulks and we'll see you soon, y'all.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I know, you know, like this, this is like, it's potentially setting up a, just sort of like, we've put these characters to the side in the case of Irving, maybe forever question mark or, or who's to say. So I thought that was interesting.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
We're here to talk to you about the, as Ben Stiller said a hundred different times in the official pod this week, the penultimate episode of Severance.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And then, so I, I don't, I liked this episode better than I liked episode eight, though, to be clear, you and I were higher on episode eight than like some of the more critical fan pieces of the fandom. But, um,
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
My frustration points were a little sharper with this episode than they were with episode eight, because episode eight, sort of what Damon Lindelof was talking about when we talked to him early in the season about like sort of where in the season you can get away with certain things. And in an episode nine of a 10 episode season, when you have Harmony Cabal show up.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And dramatically say Cold Harbor and then not tell them what Cold Harbor is.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
In a way that no human would ever do that. Only a TV character keeping us in suspense about what Cold Harbor is would do. That I felt like I felt the sort of the gears behind the storytelling, you know.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Sort of groaning and creaking a little bit.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Thank you so much for sharing with us your incredible Harmony Cabal impression. And that reminds me that I should tell listeners, we here at The Ringer at Spotify are currently unable to put clips into our podcast for very boring reasons that we don't need to get into. But
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
He loves the word penultimate. And he has arrived. So before we get into this episode, we're here to talk to you about episode nine, The After Hours, written by the creator, Dan Erickson, and directed by Uta Brasovitz, who is, we've already talked about her as an incredible TV director previously in the season. So I'm excited to talk to you about this. We haven't talked about this at all, Rob.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
you will not hear any clips from the episode unlike last week where we crammed like so many clips in you won't hear any clips from the episode was it our fault?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
it might have been you won't hear any clips from the episode and we can't even do the birthing drop so we're going to have to rely on Rob's impression to get us through and this week of all weeks to not have the birthing drop is heartbreaking it's tough no crab rangoon we're bereft honestly but we'll soldier through
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I wanted to start – I do want to go sort of like plot line by plot line, but I want to start with this like – let's check in on the opening credits.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Because this is something that we've been like looking at every week. Not every week, but like as the season evolves, we're sort of like, oh, that's what that vial of milky goo is. It's the medicine that Mark's taking or that's why there's an ice flow or that's why there's this, that and the other stuff. And so I'm looking at it and I'm like, what's still left –
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
That I don't feel like has been fulfilled by the plot yet.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Oh, we're going to get there. That's my last thing. First of all, more explicit Mark V. Mark scenarios. Do you know what I mean?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
That's such a foundational part of the opening credits. And I don't know that I feel like I felt them in conflict with each other.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Okay, so I feel like there's some scenarios where it seems conflicted, but you're very right that there are also some scenarios where one is carrying the other, let's say, like under that elevator curtain part of the opening credits. Okay, there's that. So, Gemma in the testing floor elevator, we've seen. But that image in the opening credits flashes between Helena and Gemma.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And on the one hand, that could just be, hey, these are two women that have captured Mark's fancy, or... Are we going to see, as seems to be indicated in this episode, Hallie and or Helena get on that elevator and go down to the testing floor before all is said and done?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
She won't be, though. That's the one. That's the thing. OK, here's here's a theory I saw on Reddit this morning. Credit to the Redditors. They're the best. That really intrigued me. And again, we're going to we're going to save most of our what's going to happen the finale, even though I just started talking about it for Q&A.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
But if Helly and Mark both get on that testing floor elevator and go down.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
It will be their outies. on the testing floor yeah it will be chinese diner zufu energy down on the testing floor and that's very exciting to me they're not not exciting they're not going to make it out of that elevator those two in a confined space i put nothing past them i i think that could be really fun okay last but not least proliferation of baby cures That's one way to put it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
That brings me now to a segment I'm calling Secret Egan. A game I would like to play with you, Rob Mahoney.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
So I actually don't know how you feel about this episode. We're going to do sort of like a big picture look before we do that. Some like programming announcements and they're a little bit more detailed than they usually are.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
You know, Secret Baby for sure, but also this is reminding me of like in the... Were you a Battlestar Galactica person?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Yeah, Secret Cylon or the Height of Thrones mania, Secret Targaryen. Like this is a game we like to play. Okay, so Secret Egan. We get in this episode when they're breaking into the birthing cabins. She's one of James, right? Like that fake pregnant Devon. is one of James, which the implication is that Jamie Egan, like Elon Musk, has decided to just sort of spread his seed all around.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
He's a busy man. Um, there was a, uh, an item in the newspaper that, that mentioned that a woman got pregnant while she was severed.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
That was a whole thing.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
One of James is what I would say. Okay. So let's go down a list and I would just like to hear your input.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Rickon's on my list. Okay. Rob says yes. I'm just going to take notes here. Okay. Harmony Cabal. I think... Twofold.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Is she an Egan? And then has she had a child by an Egan?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Don't skip ahead like you usually do. Pay attention. Okay. Take notes. The Severance finale is next week.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Our listener Holly wrote, Harmony, if not an actual lactation consultant, knows enough to assist Devin, maybe from personal experience.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And we already mentioned this early in the season, but could that Egan in particular be Helena Helly? We know nothing about Helena's mom.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Or like just like an Egan bastard. I mean, I guess they all are. I don't like that word. Anyway. Okay. A connected, distantly connected Egan.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And then I felt a little uneasy in my heart and my mind and my soul and my stomach when I Googled whether or not the following actors were biracial. But I did do that. So let's talk about this.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
This episode of the Prestige TV podcast is brought to you by Coffee Mate. Coffee Mate has been searching the globe for flavors that pair perfectly with coffee. So when they heard that the new season of HBO's The White Lotus was set in Thailand, they were inspired to brew up two new flavors, Thai iced coffee and piña colada flavored creamers. They're available for a short time only.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
It's the end of the week. This is always a joy for me on a Friday morning to talk to you about the latest severance episode. We get up early. We do this early in the morning so we can get it out for you guys. This episode is called Sweet Vitriol. written by Adam County and Casey Perry and directed by one Mr. Benjamin Stiller.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
and say, what, tame these tempers? Hell yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And, well, unless, you know, Lumen abducts him or something like that. That's true. But it sort of feels like a one and done for James LeGrow. But if Hampton wants to ride again, I would support that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
All right, Rob, what do you feel like you understand about Harmony Cabal's life after having watched this episode? What are the key things that we learned from this episode?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And just to remind folks who are listening to this, if you want to hear more from Rob and yours truly, we're also covering White Lotus on a weekly basis.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
On the one hand, galling. On the other hand, and again, we'll go back through and sort of revisit these moments throughout the last few seasons. I kind of believe that she was still a true believer until the, what is it, the tiger ate her face? Yeah. The leopard. The leopard ate her face. There it is. Okay. To go back, you started with this idea of the voice, the affected accent.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And something I thought that was really interesting. I've always wondered about her accent and also what John Turturro is doing. They're both doing this like affected mid-Atlantic.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And you mentioned Jane Alexander's sissy in this episode, but also something that Patricia Arquette said in a truly unhinged and delightful interview on the official podcast was that this was like sort of a – because she was born in poor circumstances – This is a sort of like sort of similar to Milchik. This is like a this is how I should speak to be taken seriously. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
By the high toned people that I work with now. This is what an upper class person sounds like. So this is what I will sound like. And this is how I will change my voice to fit in that way.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I think thinking about Miss Wong's use inside of this season as sort of this, like, you know, hearing Wintertide and all this sort of stuff like that, like, as this precursor to the way that Lumen and the Egan family, like, you know, we already had seen the shrine in Harmony's home. We knew that she had gone to a school, an Egan school, but...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Bill Simmons, ever heard of him? Molly Rubin and I are also covering White Lotus on Sunday nights. And then a couple of days later, Rob and I do it. Next week, we're headed back to the pit. So we're going to check in on our favorite doctors and all the trauma that's been happening in the week since we last checked in with them.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
You know, to see Miss Wong on the severed floor working like child labor as an early. So, no, not a clone of Gemma, not Mark and Gemma's child, but like just part of this child labor churn that they have been. probably since the dawn of time, taking advantage of. To your point, I really love this point.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
The idea that like Harmony, thinking about Harmony Cabal in Hampton as young child laborers in this factory, in the ether mill. Yeah. She says when they take a good huff of the ether, she hasn't done this since she was eight. So huffing ether... or inhaling it while they're working, I don't know. Perhaps intentionally as a way to disassociate from the horrors of their job, right?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
So to come up with this procedure that does the same thing, but just with more precision is really interesting.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
To, like, torture, which is what we saw with Gemma, right? So... In the eagle-eyed Redditors... I mean, I know I'm talking to freeze-frame Mahoney here, so, like... We're going to come back to that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
You know your way around a freeze-frame, but... Previously, when we were in, or actually, I think this is like extra textual. They released a bunch of props from the Zufu Chinese restaurant set online in some article or another. And definitely the writers were pouring over it. And there were news articles that they had written that mention Zufu.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Incident at Salt's Neck, ether spill, like ether mill ruins town, town sues, you know, yada, yada, Aaron Brockovich, like sort of thing, right? And then also in one of the articles that they released as part of this sort of like prop display, there was also a Crab Rangoon sign, by the way, just shout out. to the Prestige TV podcast. Crab spelled with a K. Can we buy it? I think we should.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Crab with a K. Crab Rangoon from the Zufu Chinese restaurant. That they were creating a version of the chip for children as young as five. Jesus. Grim.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And we still keep getting emails about this. So I will keep reminding you that Yellow Jackets is now being covered over on the House of Our Feed. Molly Rubin and I are covering it, not this week, but usually week to week on the House of Our Feed. We're covering Yellow Jackets over there. It was a very dense week over on the regular verse. So that is what is going on around the various feed sites.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And didn't come home. to see her at the end of all things because she was too busy sort of like with work and school and like wasn't allowed or whatever but it still feels like a choice something in looking uh into ether which is something that was a fun part of my job this week um there's a few long-term effects of ether addiction this is related to what you're saying though
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
One is memory loss, right? Prolonged ether use leads to memory impairment, making it difficult to recall recent events or retain new information. So, you know, we're on the severance beat there. But also... in terms of her mom, and this is the breathing tube we've been seeing since season one. This has been a prop.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
We sort of thought by the dates that it might pertain to her mom, the date that was like on the breathing tube. We saw in the Shriner house. We saw her look at it in the car on the way to Salt's Neck. Like, so this has been, this is the answer. A side effect of prolonged exposure to ether is chronic respiratory issues.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Frequent inhalation of ether results in chronic breathing problems, including coughing, shortness of breath, and respiratory infections.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I mean, huffing it directly or just goddamn working in an ether mill. Because, like, I have to imagine that that ether mill has been there for a while. And, like, the whole town, again, once again, to, like, everything I know about everything in life I learned from films, and I apologize for that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Once again, to invoke Aaron Brockovich or any sort of like similar story, like if you think about you were talking about this, like a town destroyed by industry. Yeah. A town destroyed by ether, like ether inhalation that everyone there has weird chronic breathing issues or memory issues, you know, like that's just horrifying.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Sweet vitriol, the name of this episode, Rob, is another sort of a condensed version of a name for ether. Sweet oil of vitriol is what diethyl ether, which we will talk about aplenty as we do this podcast.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
No, you can. I've heard it both. Like it's more commonly Imogen, but I have heard Imogen.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Imogen is like a real old tiny way of saying Imogen for sure. I think this other thing that we learned because knowing that she was not just like at this Egan school, but also was a child laborer. really underlines this sort of like, has Harmony Cobell ever lived a life? Yeah. You know what I mean?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And so something that she was talking about a little bit, Patricia was talking about a little bit on the official pod, and I think is really evident when you go back and think about it, is her Mrs. Selvig stuff, on the one hand, was creepy spying on Mark. Scientific exploration, which we'll talk about a little bit more as she's kind of testing the bounds of severance, the walls in her own way.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
But also, as the con goes on, she starts to enjoy just not being in the office and not...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
centering everything in her life around lumen like when she's with devon yeah and she's just like telling stories and cracking jokes and talking about babies like are there ways in which this is just like actually her enjoying her life or when she like shares a smooch with hampton here like is it just sort of like harmony cabal has never truly lived and you know
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Can I float a fun little theory about you?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Okay. Diethyl ether? Sure. Does that sound right to you?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Pineapplebobbingatgmail.com if I mispronounced that. Diethyl ether. If you take the first... Are we anagramming? Three letters.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And the last two letters. First four letters, last two letters. Switch them together. you get Dieter.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
As in Dieter Egan. Is there a possibility that Dieter Egan... Was a fever dream? Was never really real, but is really just the... I'm on ether, dark shadow version.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Yeah, please, please.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
So good old Dieter, I'm just going to call him Aether Egan, this idea of him as the shadow self of Cure Egan, who already seems shadowy in his own right.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Guess what? I've never huffed a single thing in my life. I know.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I don't think those sheets were ever cleaned.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
She's like laid down forever. I was just we saw the like the light of day pass. I was just like, oh, my God. Okay. The nine get mentioned a couple times and just worth reminding people. When she says Sissy lives by the nine, the first time I watched this not paying enough attention, I was like, is the nine a geographic location? No. The old gods and the new? What is it?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Living by the nine meaning in adherence with the nine. And just to remind people if they don't remember, the nine tenets are vision, verve, wit, cheer, humility, benevolence, nimbleness, probity.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
It's a no for me on huffing. If you're watching this on video, you may have noticed a Lumen-esque box behind me. Apple sent over... What is the memo that they sent me? It says, Senior Refiner Audi Gifting Memo. So that is what they sent over. It's like a little fake vending machine.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
You don't miss, and I love it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
No. Also, definitely arts and crafts involved in both in terms of the Four Tempers representation. Quick question for you, Rob. Please. Thank you for doing all that. You're the best. In the 19th century, when folks would gather together and huff ether together for its intoxicating effects, do you have any guesses as to what they called those gatherings?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
It's an ether frolic.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Frolic, of course, one of the four tempers. We've seen it tattooed on Drummond's hand.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Suck it, whoa. I mentioned Aaron Brockovich a couple times. It's obviously not the only way in which we can think about sort of like the ill effects of industry on townspeople.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And she has everyone's phone number memorized. It's great. So she does. Another, I will say, another film that I think would, helps me understand this kind of experience is there's this great movie called Medawan, which is, like, about unionizing labor around coal mines in early 20th century, I think, West Virginia. And this idea of, like,
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
company towns, coal mining towns, the way that a company town... We've talked about this with Kier where Mark lives. The idea of a company town that they own the general store, they own your house, they own everything.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
So if you're watching this on video, which you can do on the Ringer TV YouTube channel or on Spotify, we're going to do like a, not a full unboxing, but a mini unboxing a little later in the episode. Hopefully keep it audio friendly. So if you're listening, you can also enjoy that. But that is the plan today as we talk about this episode. Rob...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
They own Zufu Chinese restaurant. They're setting you up on blind dates. That in certain areas of America... that they would not pay you in money, but pay you in script that you could only use at the company store. You know what I mean?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
So for the love of coffee, go try them now.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
So you can never like get out of the cycle of control that people like JP Morgan or Andrew Carnegie or these other like titans of American industry who are surely models for Keir Egan instituted in our great nation. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And the Midwest, you know, we've talked about all the like Michigan, Michigander sort of stuff, you know, like thinking a lot about Detroit as a city that has been in a different sense, but sort of hollowed out by industry where there was like the booming auto industry. And then as those factories shuttered, went overseas, whatever it is.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
that town, that city is rebuilding, but became something of like a ghost city for a while. There was like a streak of incredible horror films that were filmed in like the outskirts of Detroit because it just looked like abandoned.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And that's no disrespect to any Detroiters who are listening because there's like vibrant and very cool parts of that city, but there's also ways in which that city was forever changed by an industry that fed it and then abandoned it. you know, without any... Like, not even fed it, like, milked it, essentially, for its labor. Totally. And then just sort of, like, left it high and dry. So, yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Some Manchester by the Sea sort of energy here.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Let me say, never. Okay, um... brief foray to literature corner um we did get an email from a listener uh that i have what is it christine wrote in uh in response to me mentioning a swim in the pond in the rain by george saunders this exploration of these russian very special short stories she she was rereading it after we talked about it last week um Love that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Love when people read books because we talked about it. That's very exciting.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I do love it. Anyway, she said she reread the first chapter, which is about Chekhov's In the Cart. And she was talking about how much that story, which is about a woman whose life is sort of like, who's mourning the loss of her mother and her life has like passed her by and she's been disappointed. It's just her on the road in a cart in many, in the ways that like,
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Harmony has been in her white rabbit for like much of the season. Like she's like, there's so much of that text and how sparse and spare 37 minute runtime like that story is. And just to give that in relation to this, which I think is very rich. I did not study Russian literature in school. I studied British literature mostly. So I have to shout out our guy, Charles Dickens. You don't, though.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
How many emails did we get about our friend Miss Casey, aka Gemma, and which hand she prefers to write with?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Absolutely not. Charles Dickens was a child laborer. And so a lot of his books have this element of child labor in them. Something like David Copperfield, who works in like a bottling factory. Charles Dickens works in a boot blacking factory when he was a kid. And there's also this idea of upward mobility and going back home again.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
So in David Copperfield or Great Expectations, this idea of like you have elevated yourself in society. You have tried to separate yourself from your humble beginnings. And then what is it like for you to go home again and people to resent the errors that you've put on? or for you to be repulsed by your more humble origins and all that sort of stuff.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
That was very much, I think, in the mix for me inside of this episode.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
There are two things that happened this episode among, you know, whatever else. There are two things that I'm just sort of like, really? One was her handing the schematics to Sissy standing right in front of her, who had just, just put another log on the wood-burning stove. And then also, with love and respect, Devin spilling every bean to Harmony on the phone.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Her calling Harmony, which a lot of people had an issue with last week, I was just sort of like, she's desperate, right? Her brother is potentially dying. She will do anything to try to get help. That I understood. Her telling Harmony everything on the phone. I have some questions.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
That's fair. And I think that's fair. Anything else you want to talk about before we do this sort of like unboxing slash tour through Cobell's greatest hits?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
We're mentioning that she was writing left-handed in the thank you note room, that writing left-handed with a fountain pen is horrible because of the smear factor, that writing that many notes is horrible, how gibberish her handwriting looked because maybe she had some brain damage.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I love that. On the music front, did you know what another name for a theremin is?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Etherphone. Let's do... What we're going to do is we've got six clips that we're going to play and just sort of like discuss what was going on underneath the scene that we were watching now that we know that Harmony Cobel invented severance. My favorite comment that I've seen on Reddit and elsewhere is like, a woman in STEM, Harmony Cobell.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
So celebrating innovator Harmony Cobell, we're going to go through those clips. And also we're going to unbox some of these weird little boxes that Apple has sent over. I have sent Rob sort of like a photo of the boxes so he gets to pick which we start with. Rob, which box would you like to start with?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Okay. For roasting, Fireside Delight is what the box says.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Then there is inside there is a jar and it is chocolate graham cracker. Marshmallow. Unstamped.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Unstamped. S'mores ingredients. I'm already disappointed. The chocolate is stamped with the word severance.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
There's no... I guess I'm going to touch the marshmallow on a podcast. I'm sorry. Okay.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
So that is box number one was some more fixings from Apple TV+.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
But also a bunch of people pointed out that early in the episode, we see her fill out an intake form with her right hand.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Thank you so much for that setup. Kai, will you play this from season one, episode one? You know my mother was an atheist.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
She used to say that there was good news and bad news about hell. The good news is... Hell, it's just the product of a morbid human imagination. The bad news is, whatever humans can imagine, they can usually create.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
That's deeply true. Good News About Hell was the name of the pilot. Season one, episode one, the name of the pilot episode. And we should note that she says, my mother was an atheist here. And then later when she's talking to Devin, she says, my mother was a Catholic. So, like, we don't know What if any of this is true?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
So not only all those other factors, but also they're forcing a righty to write as a lefty.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
But this idea of humans can invent their own hell, I thought that that was particularly salient when we're thinking about Harmony Cobell, the inventor of severance. Yes. She was living a hell as a child laborer who was huffing ether, and then she dreamt up a way to spread that far and wide out of the ether mills into the cubicles of America. Complicated. Certainly. Complicated legacy.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Next box, Rob Mahoney.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
That's the one I thought you were going to start with. I was like, how is he not going to start with pineapple?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
What has a pineapple not stood for is my question. Yes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
This box that says desk furnishing pineapple, it says congratulations on your new desk companion and air plants. And it's got care instructions for like an air plant, which I guess is further inside.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
um let's find out it's been in a box for like a couple weeks you can't kill an air plant so uh yeah that's that's the next uh oh okay wait okay it's an air plant inside of like a little plastic pineapple did you just kill the air no i just i just made it go for a little ride but now it's fine it's a little pineapple air plant thingy how's your green thumb joe Oh, pretty shriveled.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Okay, is this good audio?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Wonderful stuff. The date rapiest of all the Christmas corners.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I have killed unkillable succulents before. All right. Next clip comes from season one, episode five. And it is a conversation between Cobel and Milchick.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I saw Miss Casey down there. You're having her watch LER.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
The light of discovery shines truer upon a virgin meadow. I'm trying something new with Miss Casey.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Keep it between us. Do you have any thought, anything you want to, I'm the one who picked these clips, so like, you know, but anything strike you about that clip in particular?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I love that. It should be noted that in the closed captioning, there are quotes around that part. Oh, fascinating. Yeah, it's true. She's, I think, often quoting Egan scripture, essentially, in the first season. So, yeah, that whole light of discovery thing. Egan bullshit thing.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
But also just this idea that, like, her experimentation with Miss Casey and Mark, this idea of it as, like, her furthering her own scientific discovery outside of the bounds of Lumen. Like, they took her idea... And either stole, I mean, stole it definitely, but stole it in a way that they like, but you're in charge. So it's still your project. And we'll get to that in a second, obviously.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
But also no further experimentation from you required. And her inquiring scientific mind is like, no, I want to steal some scented candles and leave them in the wellness room and like all these other things that she does with Mark and Miss Casey sort of. running her own scientific experiments because she is a science-minded person.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I think we're in a consensual embrace era with Baby It's Cold Outside.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
The pendulum will swing any moment now. I wanted to start... We have a lot to talk about in this episode, even though it was like a fairly short runtime. Actually, before I already told you what we're going to do, broadly speaking, Rob, though, did you like this episode of Severance?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
It says salted dehydrate. What could be salted and dehydrated?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Cut beans. Cut beans. Salted cut beans.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
It says it's a fruit leather box.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And a cut beans box. Salted cut beans.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Yeah, so fruit leather, which is just fruit leather, which is fine. We understand that. Cut beans. Is this good audio? You guys should just switch over the video if you don't. Organic green beans, canola oil, tapioca starch, dextrin, sea salt.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Cut beans. Sounds great.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
The things we do for content. All right, let's play clip number three. This comes from season one, episode seven.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Whoever killed Mr. Grainer is probably the same person who reintegrated Peter Kilmer. The board reminds you that reintegration has not- Reintegration happened. And I have the data to prove it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And I would be happy to share my findings in person without intermediaries. Yes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
She has the findings. She has the proof.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
She dug a chip out of a guy's brain. What more proof do you need? Her relationship with Grainer, too, we should point out that in season one, episode five, in that Light of Discovery episode, when they're talking about reintegration and Petey and Rigabi and stuff like that,
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
He says to her, you were right, Harmony, we should celebrate. So this idea of Grainer as like her ally, Grainer who died and we thought was fairly villainous, and he is, but like was her ally in her endeavor to prove something about reintegration. Again, like more information about her own scientific discovery. She wants to know, is reintegration possible now?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
She's constantly pissed about Rigabi working on it outside of the bounds of Lumen, but she's still very curious. And the board is like, reintegration doesn't exist. She's like, it does, man. We have to know everything about severance, you know? So...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Harmony's freaking wearing around her neck like a total weirdo. She's villainous the way that Milchick is villainous. The way that like all of these people who are sort of abused by and still working for Lumen. And so like Helena as well, I would say all these people who are sort of like used and abused by the company. Yeah. But are furthering the company's aims nonetheless.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Or someone who's due for a face turn, which it kind of feels like is where we're heading with Harmony.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Um, we're wrapping up our season one clips, but one more box quickly before we do that, Rob.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I, my guess based on like weird random swag I've gotten in the past from various people is that this is like a portable speaker.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I did not say that into the microphone that this is a portable speaker. Um, they love a portable speaker. That is like one of their favorite things to send. Oh, no. It's AirPods.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Swag life is very weird. And I just need you to know that. But it is AirPods. Just a random AirPods box.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I feel really embarrassed that I thought all this is going to be nonsense stuff. I feel embarrassed that there was like an actual high value thing in there. Let's play the season one, episode eight clip of Harmony Cabal getting fired.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
It has been decided that you be suspended from your position effective immediately. You are fired. Look off, Natalie. Is the board even there? Yes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
This is an incredible scene if you rewatch it. The look on Patricia Arquette's face when Natalie says, you're fired. And I believe she says, get fucked, Natalie, or whatever. Fuck off. Fuck off, Natalie. There you go. The incredulity in her face of like, I invented severance and you, Natalie, a functionary, are firing me. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And then she's like asking if the board's even involved because surely the board wouldn't fucking do this to her. Of course not. Then we hear from the speaker on her desk. And then the way it's shot, it's like her, she's sitting behind Natalie. She's out of focus.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
She veers around Natalie's shoulder so that she comes into focus and sees the speaker and then tries to collect herself and tries to talk to the board, but they're already gone. It is, again... She is a villain. I'm not trying to like apologize to her, but watching her get fired, knowing that she invented severance and they built this entire thing around her invention and then they're firing her.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Watching the leopards eat her face in real time is just like, it's, it's tough.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Some real Watson and Crick shit. All right. And before we get to our next clip, what's the second to last box you want me to open?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
This has got to be hopefully a very, very inexpensive, cheap stress ball and not another high priced item. One can only hope. Oh, it's a stress cow that says lumen on the side of it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Oh, it's a goat. Oh, my God. I'm so sorry.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
That's so embarrassing. It's definitely a goat. It's got a little beard.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Yeah, it's a goat. Obviously, it's a goat. What else could it possibly fucking be? What else? A lumen-branded stress goat. Okay, let's play season two, episode two clip, please.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I did. And still you proved your loyalty tonight. Which is why we'd like to ask you back.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Do you think, so this is a short run time, it's like a 37-minute episode, and I would say even less of that is like... crucial, crucial plot information. Yeah. They're still withholding a bunch of information about Harmony. So, here's two alternatives, let's say. This was not my favorite episode of Severance, and that's okay.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
An apology is warranted.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I apologize. My father apologizes. The board apologizes. We've treated you poorly. I'm sorry.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
It cost me dearly thinking about like her and her mom.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
You know? We already clocked this as just like a bullshit, I don't mean it apology from Helena. Of course. But I guess the question, and this goes to the next clip that we'll listen to as well, we don't know if Helena knows that she invented severance. In fact, there's every indication that perhaps she doesn't know.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
But it is still the galling nature of having to listen to this from Helena of just like, And there's a longer scene inside of that clip, obviously, that you have no choice. You need me. You fear me. And Helena says, we fear no one. But just sort of this idea of like, she's like, I invented this shit. You can't get rid of me. You need me for this is sort of underpinning all of that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Last but not least, one last box, one last clip.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
This is definitely stickers. This is definitely a candle. This is definitely probably a gift card for Starbucks or something like that. And the beverage is available on request. So I would say a cure package.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Okay. This is my best idea I've ever had for a podcast.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
A question that I got, someone, like, Instagram DM'd me, was sort of, which is not how, the way I encourage you to reach me, but, like, you can... How do you encourage people to reach you?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I misidentified a goat as a cow. A goat, a very important part of Severance is a cow, so not great. Oh, it's a box for the AirPods that they put in this thing.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Okay, not that it matters. But I will not be keeping these AirPods. I will probably, I will give them to whichever person who's working here today wants them because I can't wear AirPods because they fall out of my ears. So if that helps anyone from not like thinking of me as, you know.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And also I'm a very generous person, Rob. Let's play the last clip.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Marcus. is so close to completing cold harbor i intend to finish the work that i started which is why milchak must go he's not equipped for the task i must be floor manager i hear ego
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Hubris. Arrogance. Care teaches us they only cause pain.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Everything I accomplished, I earned. Through dedication and industry. Not because I was born into it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Press DHTV at Spotify.com.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I think you've overestimated your contributions and underestimated your blessings. We didn't have to ask you back.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
We already, I mean, we covered the gall, this nepo baby conversation before, obviously. That was all already there. But Hearing you overestimate your contribution is quite tough. Also, like, Harmony saying several times, I need to finish what I started. I need to finish what I started. And we're like, oh, what she started on the floor.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
PineappleBobbing at Gmail.com.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
No, what she started by coming up with severance in the first place.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
If you've got white lotus thoughts, monkeyshootout at gmail.com. We're still getting emails from like griefcardigan at gmail.com. I respect all of them.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And I don't know if you've ever heard this expression, but hell hath no fury like a woman scorned by her industry religion boss daddy. That old chestnut. That old chestnut. And that's where we find Harmony Cobell, scorned by the religion that she believed in, by the company that she gave her entire life to, and hopefully out for vengeance. Or...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
out to sell out, you know, Mark and Devin for a chance at her job back.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
It could go either way. It could go either way.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I don't think she knows. There's so much she doesn't know, you know? That conversation she had at Zufu with Mark where she's like, I know everything. I'm at the top of my company. It's just like more and more like apparent to me that she's kept completely in the dark about everything.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
But this is a listener I kind of know. So, like, I understood why. But anyway, she was like, how many very special episodes, like, sort of premise-breaking episodes is too many premise-breaking episodes inside of a short season of television? Because I would say between this, Last Week's Which We Loved, and The Orpo, those are, like, quite premise-breaking episodes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Here's what I hope. Milchick, Helena, Harmony all turn on the company at the end of the day.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
It's capitalism, Rob. It's obviously capitalism.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Pineapplebobbing at gmail.com. PressTV at Spotify.com if you have any questions, comments, or concerns about anything that we have outlined here today or... Feedback on my decision to litter this table in front of me with open boxes. We'll be back with more White Lotus coverage. Thanks so much. This has been so fun. We only have a couple more episodes left.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
You guys have been really crushing it with the Severance emails, the Severance theories. The Prestige TV feed is really... The joint is jumping and it's been really fun. We will be probably doing... Our plan is to do sort of like a live...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
severance theory pod and I'll give you a little bit more information about that the closer we get to it but I just wanted to put that on everyone's radar that Rob and I are going to do sort of like a before the finale live speculation fun thing and that's it we'll see you soon bye
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
So maybe the idea of severance in season two is like, you know, and we also had the all-inny episode and the all-outy episode in the first two episodes of the season. So maybe the premise of season two was like, there is no standard operating procedure for an episode of Severance this season.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Not my favorite episode. Really missing Burt and Irving. Kai?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Two options. One is, what if we took the meatiest parts of this episode and seeded it into the last few episodes? We're checking in with Harmony as she... you know, hooks up with Hamilton, her old chum, and all these other things that she encounters. Or alternatively, we have an even denser Harmony Cobel episode that is less withholding about, like, what if we get just like a full flashback?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
What is the life of, what was the life of Harmony Cobel sort of as she went through you know, child laborer to inventor of severance. Like, what was that complete arc like versus sort of the... I would say, coyer approach that we got inside of this episode. So do you have a preference between those two? Or are you like, hey, it's not my job to tell someone how to run their TV series?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And to be very clear, I agree with everything you said. And to be very clear, I love Patricia Arquette.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
She's so good. And I'm very fascinated by Harmony Cobell. So it's not like I want less Harmony. I think we're just having questions about the when and the where and the why of it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I agree. On the other hand, I will say, and we're going to go back through some previous Harmony scenes and sort of like re-listen to some clips now knowing what we know about Harmony's role. And that's interesting to me because I did have a lot of lingering questions about what was her motivation for XYZ in season one. And this helps with that a lot.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And so, yes, I did not really... I just assumed it was Negan. I mean, that's... I just assumed it was a Negan. And the fact that it wasn't a Negan and it was this woman who gets treated rather shoddily given all of that information is... opens the aperture on a character in a way that I really, really like. Let's talk about some of the guest stars in this episode.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
So, well, I want to start with Patty Arquette, Patricia Arquette, because reading the Reddit boards, it just reminds me that not everyone knows what a legend Patricia Arquette is. Where are these people coming from?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
They're younger than we are. So... Of course, she won an Oscar for Boyhood, and I would really recommend you check out that incredible project, obviously. Obviously, she's worked with Ben Stiller on Escape from Dannemora and an earlier film they did together. True Romance is sort of like my peak Patricia Arquette. What do you want to say about Patty, Rob?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Yeah. And you know, from the Arquette acting family, uh, raised as like, you know, uh, a weird little hippie, uh, is a very strange and wonderful person and a really strange and wonderful performer. Um, As Alabama in True Romance, that is, like, one of the most, like, sexually dynamic, alluring, like, characters you've ever seen in your life.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And you were like, yes, I will throw my entire boring life away for this person. Like, that's the premise of that movie. And so there was the shot after she is... I hate that you used the word musty, but it's appropriate. After the musty situation... And we're going to talk about James LeGrow in a second.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
But when Hamilton comes up into the bedroom and they have the moment on the bed, there's the huffing. And then there's also a smooch that, according to the official podcast, was unscripted. But it was funny. Like, right before the smooch happened, there was just this shot. You know, she's got this, like, very severe hair. The hair was Patricia Arquette's idea. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
You know, she's older than she was when she played Alabama in True Romance, but there's just something so alluring about her. Her eyes are just like this really compelling blue that I was just like, I would smooch Harmony Cobell. There's just something like bewitching about her that I find. I don't know.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And I don't know if you need that larger Arquette filmography context for that or if that works in isolation inside of this. But one of the things that I saw on the Reddit boards that blew my mind, and I think this speaks to the wig work on this show, is someone misidentified this character we meet, Sissy, as her sister, which I understand because some people say Sissy.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Jane Alexander, who plays Sissy, that's her aunt. And she's of a completely different generation. So I'm like, how old do you think Patricia Arquette is, man? Or how youthful do you think Jane Alexander is?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed. I'm Joanna Robinson.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I mean, I was definitely wondering if Hamilton and Harmony were siblings and then they smooched.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Jane Alexander, legend of stage and screen, has won a pile of awards, is an absolute icon, playing sissy here. According to the official podcast, asked to have her hair cut to look like Harmony so that they could have matching hair. Amazing. Was in a film that has been sort of like lost to time, but was really definitely a thing at the time, which is Cider House Rules.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
We're here today to talk to you about severance. How excited are you to talk about severance, Rob?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
A Miramax joint, which won Michael Caine an Oscar, among other things. That is the movie where I first learned about huffing ether as a drug abuse situation. Look at that. Michael Caine plays a doctor. And your life was never the same. Enjoys huffing ether. And Jane Alexander plays a nurse in that movie. So, fun little...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Jerry Stahl, who wrote Permanent Midnight, who Ben Stiller played in the film Permanent Midnight, is one of the guys, the guy in the diner. And last but not least, James LeGrow, who to me is the runaway star of this episode. I'm a huge James LeGrow fan. The original cinematic, Raylan Givens, also played Wade Messer on Justified.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
has been in a ton of things, but something that they said in the official podcast about casting him in this role is when you have not much time to establish dynamics between characters, there's a ton of history, unspoken history between these two, you cast a James LeGrow who can just, going back to the 90s, drugstore cowboy, whatever, can just...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
give you, like, a life lived on a face kind of guy. Do you know what I mean? So, anything you want to say about these guest stars or our guy, Wade Messer from Justified, specifically?
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The Rewatchables
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He kind of was Cheeto five years before Cheeto. I mean, he literally went from critically acclaimed performance, New Jack City, right? Dead Presidents, another incredibly important cultural movie. The Postman. That's your big, huge Hollywood joint, right? Then he has his starring role.
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A couple rom-coms. He has Love Jones, beloved film. Then he has Why Do Fools Fall in Love, which he's Frankie Lyman. That's your big biopic. He normally... He spends all of that time building up. And then when Crash comes out, he plays... Number one, he plays a lot younger. He plays like a 21-year-old, 22-year-old kid, which in and of itself is interesting.
The Rewatchables
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And then two, he plays... second fiddle to a lot of people that it felt like he should have been on their level. It felt like he should have been maybe almost... It felt like he made more sense in actually Don's role.
The Rewatchables
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At that point? At that point in his career. I agree with you. Don was the producer. I know that Don was the producer and Don was further along in his career than what Lorenz was.
The Rewatchables
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But when you looked at it, even when it was on back then, I was like, oh... It seemed like a role where he was trying to re-enter the conversation after having a couple of cool years or something like that.
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He really is. I was surprised at how good he was in the movie. I was surprised. He's good in every Fast movie, too.
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The movie completely... By the way, just real quick... I didn't know that until I started doing my research on the movie. The movie totally makes sense now.
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He wants to make a movie about all the microaggressions and the societal reasons that he was carjacked. He wants to make a movie about that, but he can't quite do it without bringing everybody else into it. And he feels the need to tell everybody's story to where really the story that he wants to tell is about being him, a white guy being carjacked. He wants to know why that happened to him. Yeah.
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And then that ends up becoming this entire movie where he has to kind of litigate why that happens to anyone, why everything happens to everybody. But really, that's what he wants to talk about. It's obvious to me.
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Okay. What was the guy that wrote the movie, wrote the book, and he was on Oprah, and the book was great? Oh, and he turned out to be a plagiarist?
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I got to be honest with you. That scene between Figner and Cheetle, that is the one scene in the movie that overwhelmingly works to me.
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
But either one of those scenes, I've literally been both of those black dudes. I've been the black dude where some white guy's sitting you down and he's telling you, you just don't know when to take a win. You have to get a little dirty to get what you need to do. And I've also been the other guy. I fucking got fired for that.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
I've been the guy where they're trying to tell you to ramp it up a little bit.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
And you're like, don't tell me how to. But I didn't. He cucked out. I apologize for that. You've never. Don't even play like that. I'm serious.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
What they don't... Obviously, they play the scene up a little bit. They don't say it like that, though. But what they do is they rap... they're trying to get to their end.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
They're trying to get to their end. And they tell you, listen, you're not going to be able to do what you want to do by staying pure. You're going to have to get dirty and play the optics of it. This is how the world works. This is how it works.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
No, because he said all that to grab his attention, to rope him in and make him know that I'm shooting straight with him.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
I still go for Matt Dillon, and I'll tell you why. Wow, that's a good choice.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
So I'm not going to argue it.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
It's true. They don't give Michael Peña... He's got no red in his ledger. That's true. He's the only character maybe in the movie.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
But she gets traumatized early in the movie. And the thing about that is that... Like, her fear gets validated. Like, she's scared of the guys.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
But at the same time, they actually robbed her. So the rest of the time that, like, she's freaking out about stuff, you're thinking, well, her instincts were right before. You could almost, like, argue it away as her being... Validated. Yeah, validated a little bit. But with him, he literally is having...
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
issues in another area of his life he's the nightmare police officer he's the he's the cop that's having a bad situation at home that's having a bad day that got stuck in traffic and because of that he kills or assaults you like he did save the lady at the end and he is going through something with his father but that's like the worst version of the fear that a lot of people have of the police i think there's also i mean for me it's it's
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
It's like, all right, I'll watch this scene. Um, yeah. So it, I hadn't seen the movie in a while. I've seen it a bunch of times. I hadn't seen the movie in a while. It's not very rewatchable.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
At the end, though, it looked like Brendan Fraser was- Oh, he's definitely fucking her. Getting it in. That's the type of shit that we're talking about. Deleted scene there, definitely.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Nona Gay. 100 miles an hour. Jesus.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
It seemed like she didn't want it.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Because there's a moment here, there's this, the Matrix, I'm missing one. Oh, and Ali.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
It kind of seemed like at the end, she just kind of, she wasn't into it.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Why this movie might have touched him and affected him.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
You think that's it? Yeah. I think he watched... I think that he watched the movie and... What do you think she thought of the movie? She probably was like, Raj, that shit sucked. But she was like... She was probably like, I don't want to hear no more about that. Get that movie out of here.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
But he probably felt like in a place where he's been probably judged and people have made a lot of decisions about him and his life because he's married to a black lady. He probably looked at the movie and went, huh, I get it because some of the shit that Rogers probably got probably came from the black community, which sometimes can be deified in conversations about race relations.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
So a movie that paints everybody as a little fucked up, he probably was fucking with it a little bit, a little more than another critic would be.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
See? See? And or minority group members. Raj was tired of people looking at him crazy at the NAACP Awards.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
When you get into the movie... There's just like a wave of nostalgia that hits you because of the cast.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
I'm going to go in the middle. I'm going to go like 23. Why? Oh. Because I think that 23 is at the point where you could have, which is the perfect response to Crash. It's called the 10-minute regret. Crash is a 10-minute regret movie. We've all seen it before where you leave a movie and you go, shit, that shit was okay. Yeah, that shit was pretty good, man. I see what they was doing.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
And then on the drive home, by the time you make it home, you're like, man, fuck that movie. You know what I'm saying? By the time you make it home, you keep- I like this.
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
And because of what place we must have been in society for this movie to have been made and been taken so seriously. Because like everybody in the movie is at a weird type of position in their career. Yeah. Yeah. Terrence Howard's as hot as he ever was in this movie. But we don't know that in 2005 when he's making it. No.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
You leave the theater and you're like- They did it. And then by the time you get home, you're like, man, that shit sucked. And Crash is the perfect movie and the perfect time at 23, 24, you think you know the world. You know just enough to know that what you saw is bullshit.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
This motherfucker, Michael Pena, was going through it. He really was. Rough two weeks for him. Two weeks. This is like two fucking days.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Yeah. So he literally catches two calls. One where he gets called a gang member when he's a loving, devoted father.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
And then the other one where he tries to tell the guy.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Fix your door. And the guy goes off on him.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
They all are. They got top-flight actors. I'll tell you something about this movie, though. Terrence Howard doubled up really well in this movie. I mean, in his career. Having DJ from Hustle & Flow come right after this was a gift. It was a gift that these movies were out at the same time. Because if not, this is the type of movie that could Orlando Bloom you from Troy.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
I don't think Orlando Bloom ever recovered from Troy because he was too much of a bitch. Okay? I'm sorry. Orlando Bloom was the man. And then in Troy, he was just such a bitch that I think it really hurt him for years to come. And his character is so feckless in this movie. That is the kind of thing that can stain you, particularly with the community, for a while. Interesting.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
But DJ kind of got them back there because DJ was a straight G.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Yeah, he got his strength back. He never got it back. He's throwing stuff in the fire. He never got it back.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
And this is it. Sandra Bullock is in a sort of, and Brendan Fraser as well. Like, Brendan Fraser more than her. Brendan Fraser's in a weird limbo.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Prisoners is after this. Yeah. Empire is after this. Oh, yeah. He's back now. He's the world's smartest man. He's figuring out astrophysics and all kinds of shit.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
I have a new category. I have least rewatchable scenes.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
See, so that's one of the more absurd scenes in the movie that kind of works. That they don't check the car. They don't, nothing. They're just like, okay, our bad. Like him sort of getting to the thing and he's in front of the cops because actually I've seen people that are just tired of taking shit.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Make mistakes with the police like that to where they just, you're taking the wrong time with the wrong group of people to assert your manhood. I'm not going to let you tell me to move and all that stuff that, that kind of thing. Actually, they might've stumbled onto something that actually kind of happens. So what do you have for most rewatchable scene?
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
I got, uh, Lickner and Cheetle. I watched that scene.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Fickner. I'm sorry. Fickner. Lickner. He's doing it with Ryan Phillippe. Ryan Phillippe. William Lickner. I have him and Cheeto. I actually watched that scene three times. I think that's a great scene. I think Cheeto is great in the scene. I just think that's actually a legitimately great movie scene to me.
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
This is his first big job. Cheadle is taking control of his Hollywood A-list status in this one because he's also a producer. And then you look throughout the cast and there's just other people who this is either their first big serious thing, they're making a turn.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Oh. Smoking in Los Angeles. Happier times. People just, he's like, he's just ripping cigs, going crazy, smoking in Los Angeles.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
The MCU. A lot of MCU peeps in this. Oh. Yeah. Two different roadies. Both roadies are in this movie.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Double roadie. Michael Peña. Michael Peña. I think I wrote him down here. The dude who helped Iron Man is the shop owner.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
I forgot that he was in that. There's another great That Guy in this one, too. But the guy who helped Iron Man. And Michael Peña, Luis. So I'm looking at the movie and I'm saying all of the MCU people that are in the movie. The MCU. What do you have for what stage is the best? Anything, guys?
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
You know something else about the movie that makes it very 2005? So the film is actually coming off the worst. Criticizing the LAPD now is actually kind of trite. People don't actually do it as much as they used to. It's not a top of mind thing anymore. There's still obviously a lot to talk about. But this movie kind of buttons that up a little bit. the conversation around the LAPD.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
The LAPD was by far the most notorious police department in America throughout the 90s.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
The insurance guy. I know, but who is that, though? Shaniqua. I just never thought I'd hear you. That was her name.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Yeah. It was the character's name. Okay, no, I'm with it. Shaniqua. Shaniqua. Put a little sauce on it.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Yeah. And just delivers in that one scene.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
But do you understand, though, that, like, if there's a... This guy is riding high, right? Because he just won an Academy or he can do whatever he wants. There's a version of this movie that has more scenes like the Keith David scene, more scenes like the Figner scene, that's not as... You're talking about Haggis riding high off a million-dollar baby.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Yeah, what I'm saying is, like, the movie loses itself in how important it actually thinks that it is.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Because that scene with him is a perfectly good scene where a black man in authority is saying, you're not going to fuck this up for me and it can be fucked up. This is what you're going to do. This is how we're going to work this around. Like that works.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Do you know what the funny thing is? You just brought up Gravity. That movie's good. It's on the rewatchables list.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Have I been neuralized? I completely forgot about how much I loved and enjoyed that movie. It's a great movie. People don't talk about it.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Interstellar is talked about every six weeks for some reason. Not on this podcast. Interstellar is fucking great. Yeah, whatever. You don't like Interstellar? No. You don't like, are you a Nolan guy? Hold on for a second. Just allow me 30 seconds of latitude. I like Gravity. I like Gravity as well.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
No. Oh, you don't like Christopher Nolan. Never mind. Move on. Inception's too weird. You don't like Memento? Love Memento.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Oh, so you're early Nolan.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
pulling Newton out of the car? We can shoehorn that in, but this movie is so obviously low budget that they don't really have.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Or maybe at the end of Ryan... Philippe. Philippe. Ryan Philippe. And Philippe. Yeah. Like burning the car, which that shot, him with the gloves.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Signaling that what Matt Dillon said to him earlier in the movie has already come to pass. Just wait till you're on the job a little bit longer and it'll corrupt him.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
You want to use your own category here? Yeah, right here. Go ahead. Let's hear it. This is an all-time We Solve Racism movie, and I gave the top five We Solve Racism movies of all time. I put it in here.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Yeah. Top five. We solve racism.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Top five white people solve racism. At number five, the blind side. That's where racism loses to athleticism. At number four, a time to kill. Blacks deserve revenge.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
No. I mean, they're all. She's been in a lot of them. Right. Yeah. Number three, we're all racist and it's beautiful. Yeah. Number two, the help or how white women will save us. Yeah. Number one, driving Miss Daisy. Yeah. How elderly sexual tension makes a cool Oreo swirl.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
The Help and Miss Daisy are two movies that after the screenwriters or the playwright finished writing the movie, they went, yeah.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Yes. You're the only friend I have. There are a couple of scenes in the movie that get it devastatingly right. I'll talk about... Did you get emotional during this movie at any point? A little bit. There are times, just because the sheer human agony that's happening on the screen, sometimes you relate to it. But...
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Could he understand English or he couldn't?
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
And the guy's like, you're trying to... But the language barrier, he's functional enough to be able to run his store, but the language barrier is part of the social dysfunction that's stopping them from understanding each other.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
There's really no wrong choices with The Butcher's Girl. Honestly, it pains me to say this. It's Lawrence Tate. Okay. He's miscast. He's totally miscast. He's playing this so wide-eyed because he's trying to seem younger. But we know him.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
And we know that he's more senior than this. We remember young Lorenz Tate. If the O-Dog era, Lorenz Tate, they tried to recast O-Dog, it makes a lot of sense. He just doesn't work for them. Paul Haggis, the wire is right there. You have 20 different good actors.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Yeah. Actually, you know what's funny? Is J.D. Walker, who plays Bodhi in The Wire, would have been perfect in that role.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Did you see the other Crash, 96 Crash?
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
That movie gets after it. That movie gets after it. I remember I had to see it. I remember going to Buffalo Video, Bank of Louisiana. Yeah. And renting that movie and a lady at the front going.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Son, that is a weird movie. And I still had to see it.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
That is bad. You know what? So we already did 8mm. But what we should have done was- Fucked up movie month? Yeah. We should have done- Crash is too fucked up. Ah, dog. That's one that deserves a revival right now.
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Are there two other movies named Crash? Yep. I bet there are. I'm going to start taking clips from Crash and just putting them on my Twitter without any context. I am. That's a crazy movie.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
It's so ham-fisted, overwrought, and heavy-handed that you, in its totality, you just cannot take it seriously. In its totality, it becomes funny because you start to think, what race thing can happen next? Like, if all the characters at the end of this movie would have joined hands and started singing We Shall Overcome, it would have made sense in context of the movie.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
And that's what I thought.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Like a weird, freaky place. Who said something like that? He probably was a vampire.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Because it's a car crash situation.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Can I just throw something in in the movie that also really works? The whole thing with Don Cheadle and his brother and his mother, that's effective. Yeah. That actually is effective how she has the one upstanding son. But for some reason, I don't know how many times you see this, they gravitate towards the fuck up son and try to protect him and the whole deal.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
All of that stuff where she goes, I know it's your fault.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
You keep complimenting him.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
The canvas Whole Foods bags. All that stuff. I'm just saying that the movie actually has some talent in it. It just falls under the weight of itself.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
It's not his fault. It's the editing. By the way, that wife character, I don't know the actress's name. That's Ugg. Classic that girl. Yeah, I don't even know what her name is. But 187, I think Stand to Deliver, maybe Dangerous Minds, a bunch of different movies. What do you have for that category?
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Oh, interesting. Okay. You're going to get mad at me. I think it's, how do you say her name? Tendui?
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
It's Tendui Newton. The scene where she's crying and telling him that he lost his dignity in the thing. She has a cry thing that she does sometimes.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
The bedroom fight is good, but she has a cry thing that she does. Her cry is overpowering.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
But if you say Hard R in a movie that's about race.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
And you know, if they cut in I don't want to direct the scene, but if they cut to him in the middle and he's out of breath, he grabs the phone.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
I'm just saying, every single... Look, in a lot of ways, I can make an argument that this movie brought me to L.A. We, okay.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Chris Bridges our guy yeah gave it back to Oprah edited it out never heard from him again just put together the ludicrous monologues and I would rewatch that's rewatchable he's good they could've he the movie needed more ludicrous for sure you have a hottest take or keep moving My only hottest take is this is the least effective anti-slavery movie I've ever seen. Okay.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
At the end... Certainly not hot. At the end, he literally frees slaves. He literally frees slaves. He gives them $40. $40? No mule. And a mule. No mule. Oh, interesting.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Look at you. $40 he gives them. Tells them he's completely racist to them. And at the end, y'all really feel good about it.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Not on the rewatchable. Well, there are certain reasons why it's rewatchable. Josh Hartnett could have played that young cop. You know what? When you said the John Cusack thing, he should have done it.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
He's tried to be bad guys a couple times. But not that kind of bad. I think seeing him like that would have been super awesome.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
I'm in Louisiana this whole time. And Louisiana has grown tired of my schtick. Yeah. They know it. I've been doing this since the sixth grade. I'm in the all white classes. I'm injecting race into everything. They're immune to it. Right. It's not working on them anymore.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
I remember him from Scrooged.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
They just didn't have enough for her to do. Every time she's obviously gorgeous, she's talented. They just didn't have enough for her. She's dope. There was no series for her. There were not live parts for her.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
I was trying to remember the relationship that Jennifer Esposito was in. Eddie Murphy, right? Early? No, she was married to Bradley Cooper. But she dated Eddie Murphy in like the 80s. Oh, did she?
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
I think Josh Hartnett works too. Casey Affleck works.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
I'm looking around. I'm like, where could I go? to where I can revitalize the thing that I do.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
This movie would have gone down the N-word path, bro. We can't do it, dog. Spike Lee's crash would have been interesting. Spike Lee's crash. A lot of crane shots, you know what I mean, of people, you know, some jazz. More Cheeto. But Quentin Tarantino's Crash is going to be... Spike Lee's Crash?
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
I don't know what to make of that. Well, they have, like, the modesty stuff that they wear, right?
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Do you have anything else?
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
I shouldn't laugh. That wasn't funny that Jo said that, but when she said... He's really up in there?
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
That's what I'm saying. I tried, audience of the Rewatchables.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
That's pretty. He was pretty big. He was a big star on TV.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Maybe. Yeah, so yeah, it's pretty big. Bigger than Hustle & Flow? Best actor nomination in Hustle & Flow is pretty tough to beat.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Kills. Would love to see Hanks in that morally gray... If you have Hanks, you gotta have the sex scene. Would love to see him.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
It's true. You got to come up with new gimmicks. Also, it's now the point that I've actually grown tired of the schtick. I came to the ringer and now I just want to talk about Star Wars and basketball all day long. But every time I walk down the street, NFL draft, somebody grabs me and they go, see what happened to South Carolina? They outlawed Negro. And I'm like, Got to spring to action. Right.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
I say Cruise. Is this the rare movie where you could put Cruise and Hanks in it together? Yeah, you probably could. Hanks could be Brandon Fraser.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
How is he not in this? Can I say something about the Cruz thing now? He works in Magnolia, but then there are other like big ensemble one scene movies where he doesn't work. Like he totally ruined Lions for Lambs. Like he was terrible in that. That movie kind of sucked. That movie sucked anyway.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
There were other reasons too. That was a great script. I read that script and thought that movie was going to win 10 Oscars.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Just to let you know. Soft launch.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
I'm just saying. She was part of the hard launch of that whole deal. Yeah. Another mistake. By the way, anytime the Scientology thing is mentioned, just black my face off. Scorsese or Spielberg?
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Let me tell you something, though. If he's in it, it's the redemption part doesn't work as well. Because he's going to play... It's going to be... Was Matt Dillon actually redeemed in this movie?
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
We can talk about it later. The movie thinks he is. The movie thinks he is. But if he's in the role... Philip Seymour Hoffman is going to be so loathful and he's going to play it so well.
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
You're just on call at all times.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Ryan Phillippe runs into Terrence Howard. I have that later. Ryan Phillippe happens to...
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
How many times did you ever- By the way, the only time I ever run into somebody I know is when I randomly see you walking down the street. Well, that's easy.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
We're sitting down and my brother goes, yo, was that you? I was like, yeah. He just walks, bro.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
You could literally go 10 years without like randomly running into somebody. If you're not at a function, just like out somewhere.
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
There's another version of this movie where he runs up to her and he sees her. He looks around.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Oh, yeah. That's a better movie. Yeah, better movie.
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
At the beginning of it, you're not checking the car. These guys are policemen. At the beginning of it, you're not checking the car. You're on a felony stop. You have to neutralize him first.
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
it's you ever been you haven't obviously oh i'm saying once they neutralize them you're still checking the car you're gonna go check the car but they hadn't ever really neutralized them because he was still walking it's an absurd scene he was advancing towards them so like they're gonna be like they go get out the car get out the car get out the car you get out the car but whatever whatever but like they're gonna deal with him first before they go check he wouldn't even sit down on the curb right like they weren't doing anything um
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Hold on. I'm going to call Al. Wait a minute.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
He knows the whole deal. I would think that he would be like, I mean, he didn't want the heat of the blood spatter from earlier. But he wants the heat of selling human beings. But trapping sounds great. Yeah. So I would think he would have been even more freaked out. But he wasn't.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
It's touchable. It's touchable. You could orient a prestige show around the case that Don Cheadle was on. right?
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Around that case, like, with the dirty cop and the whole deal and the machinations within, like, City Hall. And then it could spread out from there into the DA, then to his brother. It would have to be a black showrunner. Yeah.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
The question is, how is Danny Trejo not in this fucking movie?
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
It's so LA, crimey. How is he not in it? They didn't find anything for him in this anywhere.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
What about Ludacris as a nomination?
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
That would be really fun for Ludacris.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
They'd run him out of town. It would have been... He or she would have just gotten destroyed from all sides. Any other unanswerables?
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
I'll say something about Brokeback Mountain. Brokeback Mountain went for it. When you were in the theater watching Brokeback Mountain, that actually made me read the short story after.
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
When you were in the theater watching Brokeback Mountain, Brokeback Mountain didn't make that story for consumption with people that would be uncomfortable with any of the... And not even just the sex, the love and the affection between the two men. Brokeback Mountain said either you're ready for it or you're not. And they weren't quite ready. It doesn't seem...
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
everyone's not a racist you can be racist you can be a redeemable racist yeah everyone is a little bad but everyone is we're all like pizza how about so bad how about public transportation it's not so bad it's better than getting a car with right yep good point yeah best double feature choice what do you have joe uh 25th hour oh interesting interesting one wow
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
That's a great line. Come on. No, honestly, that's the answer.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
I still fuck with Grand Canyon. I know everybody hates it.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
I know everybody hates it.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Everybody's on Facebook. Craig, the movie would come out and... Like, we would go apeshit.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
It was like, we, like, people, it, like, movies, Queen and Slip, like, any movie that delves into this that doesn't do it authentically now is held up in such detest.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Oh, yeah. You talking about, like, something different, though.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Also, mass church groups, megachurches, would get their people and take their people to go see the movie after church. But to be honest with you, I might make one of those. Those movies do well. I'm being for real. I might make one of those.
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
They blacked his face out again. Yeah, blacked my face out again. Mine is going to be about a prosperity preacher, like a black prosperity preacher that preaches kind of like Leap of Faith. It's a shadow remake of Leap of Faith with Steve Martin. It's about a black prosperity preacher that's actually just trying to get money, but then something happens. And he really catches the spirit, right?
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
He really catches the spirit. And then I'm going to put all of the people in it. David's going to be in my shit. And we're going to put all of the people in it. And then we're just going to go church to church to church to church to church, running it up.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
It's called The Price of Heaven.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
The conversation became... really divisive after a while because what started to happen was it almost was like the hollywood liberal elites wanted to award one type of film and they chose race over a movie with gay themes because we still weren't there yet we weren't we actually weren't yeah but now it's broke back is such a great movie and it's kind of it's a fantastic insane that it didn't win
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
But just put it in context, okay? So, post-9-11, we are dealing with a lot of... Like, 9-11 was almost... It was the big... It wasn't the beginning of online... It was the beginning of this really harsh approach to discourse, where we're like... Tribalism. Yeah, to where we're, like, really litigating all the idiosyncrasies between us and all of that stuff like that. And this movie deals in that.
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Then you have, like... the Bush era where we thought we were divided. We weren't even nearly as divided as we are now. It was actually a movie perfect for its time in a way to look at the LA.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
It's happening a little bit again right now. Right. But then also remember that by the time 2005 comes, we're just beginning to sort of re-examine all of this stuff.
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Because everybody was getting money. Yeah. And we were having fun. And then 9-11 happened. And then... It's like, oh, shit. Bill Clinton, party president. Party president. Party president. We were having fun. Fucking NSYNC, Backstreet Boys. Everybody was having a good time. The economy was good. Everybody was having fun. And then stuff starts to happen. And we start to go, oh, okay.
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
We're in South Padre Island, Texas.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
You would have loved the late 90s, Greg. I was there kind of. Internet was starting. Internet was just starting. It was a great. It was a good time.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Another reason why everybody did it is because of Paul Haggis.
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Actually, to be honest with you, Amelia Perez is kind of the Crash of its day. Similarities.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
That's all I'm going to do now.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
And then I fucking repeated it because I didn't realize what he was doing. It's pew, pew. No, no.
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
I don't care. I did beep, beep.
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Because I did my own version of it.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Midnight Boys, beep, beep. Johnny Five.
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
A movie over here is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Right now, everyone is in unison about Amelia Perez. There are not very many Amelia Perez defenders.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
I don't think it was the case two months... By the way, when I say everyone, I mean the people. The industry seems to love the movie, right?
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
The people, everyone that saw it was just immensely offended by the movie. However... The critical acclaim for the movie is perplexing them. It's actually driving those people to hate the movie even more. Oh, yeah. But you have two very distinct... different factions.
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Crash was a movie that people were told that they should love and they were told that this movie is an incredibly biting and important criticism on race. The conversation that we all need to have. And then when you watched it, it was so comical. From the very first scene, it was so comical. I was like, what? For real? We supposed to take this seriously?
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Every single stereotype is approached and then sort of validated in the movie to a point to where it kind of doesn't mean anything in the end. It's just funny.
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
They'll never stop making Green Book. I have a list of movies like this. They'll never stop making Green Book. They'll never stop making the movie where white people solve racism. That's going to exist so you guys can feel good about yourselves in perpetuity. Thanks. I'm so happy. Yeah. You guys always will have one of those. Thanks.
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
This movie, though, I feel like can only be made by a white director. Okay.
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
A black man cannot have directed this movie. Why? Because the movie... it's a movie about race that's obviously made by somebody white.
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
It ignores, in my opinion, so much historical and contemporary context to put everyone in these trite, stupid, like racial stereotypes. It's working so hard to make you believe that we're all a little good and we're all a little bad. The movie actually has one of the most grotesque scenes of police misconduct that I've seen in a movie. You know what I mean?
The Rewatchables
‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Beyond like a cop just shooting somebody. Literally a sexual assault. Then it has that exact same police officer save the black woman's life. You cannot justify that scene.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
And be a black director. You cannot justify that scene.
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‘Crash’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Joanna Robinson
Yeah. Hero music too. There's like no possible way you could justify that scene if you are Steve McQueen, Barry Jenkins, Ryan Coogler. Like you can't. It's impossible.
The Rewatchables
‘Can’t Hardly Wait’ With Bill Simmons and Joanna Robinson
Can we talk about the goggles? Was that real? Were people wearing goggles in 1998? The rave culture goggles?
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‘Can’t Hardly Wait’ With Bill Simmons and Joanna Robinson
Okay. So you did, you knew somebody or knew of somebody who would kind of throw on some goggles to go out at night? To like a rave. Yeah. Yeah. What's the point of that? Just to protect your eyes?
The Rewatchables
‘Can’t Hardly Wait’ With Bill Simmons and Joanna Robinson
I don't know if it's the easiest thing you can do, but it's the most watchable. It's the most sought after. Everybody wants it, but there are so many attempts that don't work. So it's kind of a combination of both where I want a million of these. I mean, I think they try now. There's movies like Sweethearts on HBO that just come and go and disappear. They just need to put them in theaters. I agree.
The Rewatchables
‘Can’t Hardly Wait’ With Bill Simmons and Joanna Robinson
Craig has a choice. Flex category. I made up a new category. Great. It's the Matt Flynn $26 million contract award for the person I can't believe we thought was going to be a star, and it goes to Ethan Embry.
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‘Can’t Hardly Wait’ With Bill Simmons and Joanna Robinson
No, I don't. Girls get it. I don't get it. The whole cast I don't really understand.
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‘Can’t Hardly Wait’ With Bill Simmons and Joanna Robinson
That's great. So what's that category called? It's the Matt Flynn $26 million contract award for the person I can't believe we thought was a star.
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‘Can’t Hardly Wait’ With Bill Simmons and Joanna Robinson
He threw five touchdowns in one game and everybody freaked out.
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‘Can’t Hardly Wait’ With Bill Simmons and Joanna Robinson
He's the same age as Ethan Emery. But I think he, like, looked too young. But... I thought Ethan Emery looked... He kind of had a receding hairline even at 21. It's true. It's true.
The Rewatchables
‘Can’t Hardly Wait’ With Bill Simmons and Joanna Robinson
I was thinking the same thing. I think Hanks as the lead. I think Cruz as Mike Dexter. Yeah. Oh, Cruz is too small for Mike Dexter. He can't be a football player. They'd have to fudge that.
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‘Can’t Hardly Wait’ With Bill Simmons and Joanna Robinson
Eight hours at somebody's house? That's kind of similar to what... That's where the B12 vitamins come in. Yeah, exactly.
The Rewatchables
‘Can’t Hardly Wait’ With Bill Simmons and Joanna Robinson
No, you have to do it. That's the rule. You have to do it.
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‘Can’t Hardly Wait’ With Bill Simmons and Joanna Robinson
I can't hardly wait. Look, I'll be kind. The bar is just high for high school comedies. The bar is really high. And this is like watching Bob Pettit. And you're like, I get it maybe in the moment. I don't know if it holds up. You know what I mean? It kind of feels like... Bob Pettit. He's a 1950s basketball player.
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‘Can’t Hardly Wait’ With Bill Simmons and Joanna Robinson
It just feels like you ran... If you asked ChatGPT, like, write me, say anything in three minutes. And it cranked out, can't hardly wait. It's tough because... it like has the look of American pie, but it has like the feel and the earnestness of like a say anything. And I think for my generation or the earnestness high school comedy died before I came around.
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‘Can’t Hardly Wait’ With Bill Simmons and Joanna Robinson
Like by the time I showed up, it was like super bad and all that stuff. So kind of going back to this, like the hopeless romantic stick, um, It was tough. It was tough. And the lack of star power in the cast was shocking. And Sean, I was talking to Sean this weekend about it. And he was like, oh yeah, Ethan Embry, like people thought he was, he was a thing for like two years.
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‘Can’t Hardly Wait’ With Bill Simmons and Joanna Robinson
And everybody in this movie, they were like, they thought everybody was going to go on and have like a real career. And so going back now, I was, I was shocked at the casting of this film.
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‘Can’t Hardly Wait’ With Bill Simmons and Joanna Robinson
It's just, it's laid on thick, you know? All the archetypes are laid on pretty thick. I do think there are storylines that I like. I actually, I think the nerd kid getting drunk was funny. That worked for me. Yeah. And I thought the best part of the movie, you didn't really talk about it, the Jerry O'Connell scene I think is legitimately good.
The Rewatchables
‘Can’t Hardly Wait’ With Bill Simmons and Joanna Robinson
And that could have been the sequel or just exploring the theme of peaking in high school or the guy who was awesome going to college and realizing that he's a loser and coming back. I thought that interaction between the two of them was like the ghost of Christmas past coming back and telling you what your future is like. I thought it was pretty good.
The Rewatchables
‘Can’t Hardly Wait’ With Bill Simmons and Joanna Robinson
It was like Mike Dexter was looking at his future on the bench. I thought that was good.
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‘Can’t Hardly Wait’ With Bill Simmons and Joanna Robinson
Yeah. I want Mike Dexter going to college with Jerry O'Connell. Yeah.
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‘Can’t Hardly Wait’ With Bill Simmons and Joanna Robinson
And this was just three years of movies. I think this movie thought it was satirizing high school archetypes. And in reality, it was just kind of sloppy versions of them.
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‘Can’t Hardly Wait’ With Bill Simmons and Joanna Robinson
Too much B12. I don't know.
The Rewatchables
‘Best in Show’ With Bill Simmons, Mallory Rubin, and Joanna Robinson
God damn it! She doesn't get a door! She's gonna flip out!
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‘Best in Show’ With Bill Simmons, Mallory Rubin, and Joanna Robinson
Yeah, I love that movie.
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‘Best in Show’ With Bill Simmons, Mallory Rubin, and Joanna Robinson
That's a great mockumentary moment.
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‘Best in Show’ With Bill Simmons, Mallory Rubin, and Joanna Robinson
With his two left feet.
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‘Best in Show’ With Bill Simmons, Mallory Rubin, and Joanna Robinson
I know, I read it.