Jim Lampley
👤 PersonPodcast Appearances
The narrative has always been over the last few decades, stay out of the sun.
But recently, people have started saying, no, it's actually you need to become accustomed to the sun.
And the real issue is people using sunscreen all the time and then going out and getting burned.
Obviously, your situation is very different because you have a specific gene.
That's the problem, right?
The genes of the people that lived in cloudy-ass places for hundreds of thousands of years.
The burning, that's the real damage to the skin, and then it manifests itself as cancer far later in life.
This narrative that you need to be in the sun more and that just don't get burned, is that reality?
So for you, you don't ever just go sit in the sun?
Yeah, you don't really see those anymore, do you?
Is that really potentially down the pipe?
RNA right now, you say, and people clench.
It's just the messenger RNA.
Very nice to meet you, sir.
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So it's a normal function of natural human biology to create tumors.
And so the problem with this was that it turned your whole body into like a spike protein factory.
But not always locally, right?
Because they didn't aspirate with a lot of people?
I don't think they aspirated with anybody.
They didn't with the president on TV.
So that's so fascinating.
But is there another way that could potentially deal with those things other than cutting them off?
Or is that the only way to remove it from your system?
Right now, it has to be cut off.
So the issue is that once the melanoma, once these lesions are on your skin, they will expand.
Did you have to have your kidney removed?
Which is crazy because we're doing them for so long.
They still do CT scans, though, because it's necessary.
It's necessary for certain things.
Right, which is letting people know this might cause cancer.
Tell everybody what you do.
I would say innovative and hopeful more than I would naive.
yeah i don't think it's naive because you're recognizing the issue right thank you um so how well this was also a problem with x-rays right like x-ray technicians like i've seen some of those images of people's hands because the technician used to have to use their own hand to check to make sure that the x-ray was functional and over the years they go hey what the fuck is wrong with my hand and then they realize oh boy right
Tell everybody what your official position is.
One of the things that I wanted to ask you on, I don't even know if you know anything about this, but is there a connection between IVF and the amount of, because you have to take some pretty extreme hormones.
There's a lot of stuff that women have to take.
Is there a connection between that and hormonal related tumors?
Well, I'm glad you answered that way.
I was told by someone who I really trust that there is, and then we tried to Google it and it said there's not, but that's not surprising.
Well, yeah, it's awe-inspiring for sure.
I mean, anybody who doesn't think it is is not paying attention or they're purposely being ignorant.
You're a professor at the School of Medicine at Stanford.
Because of your specific type of cancer and your situation, like, do you have to, like, very closely monitor your diet?
I probably shouldn't eat as much meat as I do.
That's the issue, though, isn't it?
I mean, it's carcinogens.
But didn't the cooking of it also allow us to absorb more protein?
I'm not sure about that.
I believe that's the case, that cooking meat actually allows it to be more easily absorbed by the body.
So you should eat less meat.
Do you avoid sugar, which seems to be a real problem with cancer?
Yeah, that would be good.
I like how you say good science because that's part of the problem is that ego gets attached to ideas that have already been discussed and published.
And then people are very reluctant to accept new evidence that is contrary to that.
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One of the reasons why I was really excited to have this conversation with you about the research that you do is that I think it's really important to illuminate to the general public the sheer scope of the task of trying to figure out what is going on and all these different things that can go wrong and right in the human body and that it requires this fucking insane amount of work.
By many, many, many, many people.
So what is cancer actually doing?
How do tumors develop this ability to trick the immune system?
Is this something that other animals have?
Now, are you using like a standard large language model or do you have like a specific structure that's built that interfaces with large language?
It's a genius in the lab with you.
Is open AI learning from this agentic AI?
So there's a mutually beneficial relationship.
But you use it, and because you use it with your AI, it's benefiting from it.
The resistance to the commercialization, what was the initial argument?
Why did you, was it just a courageous decision to ignore them?
Just the concept of reversing evolution is fascinating.
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Because it comes with, there's so many ethical implications, but if you didn't have any of those, and you could do that large scale.
So do you think it was just a bias, an academic bias?
Like we shouldn't be focusing on money.
We should be focusing on the work.
And they missed the forest for the trees.
That's what they're worried about.
They're worried about the bastardization of it all.
So where you're at right now with this cancer research, why?
When will this be applied in real-world scenarios?
So when you're talking about things like with your particular issue with melanoma, when you're talking about CRISPR potentially developing some sort of a topical solution that you could put on that would fix whatever issue that you have,
Is this something that this AI that you've developed or this overlay of the AI would actually assist CRISPR in figuring out how to create something like this?
Well, I've got good news for you.
With AI and with CRISPR, you might be 30 again.
I think that's on the menu in about two or three decades.
I'm just being realistic.
I don't even know if I'm being realistic.
Well, yeah, don't give false hope.
But I mean, with the exponential discoveries, the exponential increase in technological evolution, just that we've seen in our lifetime.
And then I think AI is some new thing that is going to throw all that into just a giant monkey wrench into the gears of our understanding of how quickly technology evolved.
Yes, that's a good point.
Also, realistically, we might be giving birth to a new life form.
And people get horrified because they're like, well, people are going to be programming AI.
So the idea of a benign AI or a benevolent AI ruling over us, I think people are horrified by that, but yet at the same time, constantly terrified by human corruption, which is ubiquitous.
And ubiquitous in America, where we're supposed to be the torchbearer for the greatest experiment in self-government the world has ever seen.
And we're corrupt as fuck.
Because humans are kind of gross in a lot of ways.
Well, this is where we get into socialism because a lot of people think that one of the reasons why we're in a scarcity society is because small groups of people have gathered up most of the resources and are in constant control of them.
Especially when you deal with resources that are the earth's resources.
Who are you to be sucking the blood of the earth out and selling it for $100 a barrel?
And I think in doing so, it will expose vampires because the resistance to exposing this is going to be fantastic.
It's going to be very interesting to watch because they have no choice but to be transparent.
Is there a potential for, given the understanding of this, is there a potential for using this for organ transplant patients where locally would stop recognizing this as a foreign organ?
And you know about corporate environments because of just selling inventions.
It's real and it's weird.
It's weird when you encounter them, when you encounter complete sociopathic CEOs.
I don't think it is stupid.
But I think also when you're dealing with office environments and the culture of a specific corporation –
Humans have an ability to act like they're supposed to act in that world.
And it makes it very difficult to discern who's a sociopath.
Because you're all kind of following an act.
See, this is the problem that I have with corporations, because I think as a structure, when you have something that has an obligation to its shareholder to consistently make more money every quarter, every year, constantly, you're in a constant growth cycle.
Then you have to do whatever it takes.
Like you have to survive.
If you want to survive as a CEO, we don't want some fucking kumbaya shithead ruining our stock profile, our portfolio.
And if you want to survive and succeed as a CEO, it encourages sociopathy.
And if you're part of a corporation, there's this diffusion of responsibility because the whole machine might be doing evil, but I'm a good guy.
I just work in this department.
My only fear with AI really is automation and the complete removal of a gigantic swath of the American workforce and the global workforce.
That scares the shit out of me.
That's why it scares the shit out of me.
It's because I think it's inevitable.
And I just don't think any solution other than universal basic income is going to remedy that.
And even that, the problem I have with that is that goes against human nature.
And it removes people's identity, removes their sense of worth.
I think you're going to have to deal with it, dude.
I think you're going to live.
Also, you're privy to a lot of information and you're going to know when things are really valuable and working.
When you think of the potential for AI...
I think there's a balance, right?
I think there's a real problem with AI in terms of military objectives.
It's a real problem because it's not going to make moral and ethical decisions.
It's just going to say like, well, the decision, the clear answers.
I'm programmed to do this.
If you want me to succeed, I'll just kill everybody there and then you'll have the land.
You can get minerals out of it.
That scares the shit out of me.
I think every invention that's been truly groundbreaking throughout human history has scared people.
And they've worried about the potential negative side effects, including the printing press, right?
There's a lot of people in the beginning that said this should not be a thing.
This is going to ruin society.
People thought books were going to ruin things.
There's a lot of people that thought writing was going to ruin your memory.
Some crazy thoughts that people had in terms of things that turned out to be incredibly beneficial, but they looked at the downside of it and go, this could ruin us all.
You don't want anybody in control of it and then offering you ads for things.
Maybe you have a thought like, boy, wouldn't a ho-ho be nice right now?
And then like, why don't you buy some ho-hos?
They're on sale right now.
So would the potential be to turn that off locally so you could turn that off on the specific organ?
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When you think about the evolution of this stuff, one of the things that kind of freaks me out is it seems like integration is our only option for survival and that what we're looking at right now
when we see just a normal biological person like you or I without any sort of electronic interface that's permanently a part of us.
I think that is going to be as weird as someone today who doesn't have a cell phone.
And I think that's a really... It's coming.
The cell phone is like the best now.
Like Elon has famously said, we're already cyborgs.
We just carry it with you.
And eventually it will be... It'll be way more integrated.
This is super inefficient to be actually have to go look things up and use your thumbs and type up stuff or...
And even talking to it and asking a question and waiting for the response, that's inefficient in comparison to a human neural interface that allows you to instantaneously access large language models like that.
Not only that, but then why do we have a hundred and, I mean, how many different fucking languages do we have?
And dialects and all of that.
How about one universal language that everybody with a chip gets?
And then boy, boy do we have a soup of ideas flowing around and no problem with language barriers, no problem with cultural barriers.
But then do you have a problem with the edge of who you are versus who the other person is?
I think that goes away and we become a hive mind.
I think that's ultimately the evolution of human beings.
And, look, I know you've done a lot of work with UAPs and the like, and I think you've done some really fantastic work.
And you're very objective in your analysis of what this whole situation is.
But the problem would that be that if you, like, let's say you had a lung transplant.
When I look at artificial intelligence and I look at this thing that's clearly taking place right now and I see what –
what human beings are like in comparison to what they used to be like, and especially when you look at ancient hominids.
The alien archetype, this thing that everybody sees, supposedly, or one of the many different ones, that kind of looks like what we seem to be going in the direction of being.
Which is one of the reasons why I find it so odd.
If you had a lung infection, it would be catastrophic.
I get what you're saying.
So you make something that looks like the locals so that they're more likely to accept that it's a real thing?
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Oh, they're going to do it anyway.
How did you even get involved in this?
Like, so you're, what was your initial introduction to this?
Did you have any interest in the idea of UAPs or UFOs?
Is this the Peruvian one?
So this is the original one.
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One, that we have actually recovered these things.
And then another one is that it's from a society from somewhere else that's far more advanced than we are today.
Which might not be correct.
It might not be that it's from somewhere else.
It might be that it's from somewhere here.
a dimension that we don't have access to.
This is assuming that all this stuff is real.
But when you're talking about the government and back engineering of things, so the big argument, this is the narrative, the big argument has been that they have recovered these things and that these things are now in the hands of defense contractors and that there's been a misappropriation of funds, lying to Congress, and it's always going to stay secret because if it didn't, everybody would go to jail and everyone would get sued.
This is, were you in the Age of Disclosure documentary?
Which I thought was very good.
And I can't wait for that to come out.
I've been talking to people, how can I see it?
I don't know how you can see it.
Whoever it is, go Netflix.
I think one of the most fascinating things is Hal Puthoff's descriptions of what happened during the Bush administration, Herbert Walker Bush.
So in, I believe it was 1990, they came to Hal Puthoff and a bunch of other experts and said, we would like you to...
We want a numerical value placed on all the positives and the negatives of disclosure because we have acquired these crafts from somewhere else.
We believe they're not of this world, and we have not made them, and we're talking about...
letting the general public know.
And while they overwhelmingly said that the positives were dwarfed by the negatives, the negatives being banking, religion, government, societal structure, everything would fall apart if we knew we weren't alone.
Not only are we not alone, but something is infinitely more sophisticated than us and might be responsible for us being here in the first place, which is that's where it gets super squirrely.
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I want to bring you back to the – you said it was 10 people that didn't have Havana syndrome, that they had some sort of an injury that was associated with a UAP event.
Did they have an implant or was there a – No.
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I have a few friends that have had organ transplants.
And it's very disturbing knowing that they're so vulnerable to any kind of infection because of these medications that they have to take in order for their body to accept a transplant.
You know about the Travis Walton story, right?
Yeah, and his story is that he was taken aboard to heal him.
That something happened to him during that event.
But the crazy part is that all the other people that are in the truck, they witnessed it, and then they passed polygraph examinations.
They also told the same story independently when they took him and separated them.
And then Travis Walton shows up five days later with the same clothes on with this crazy story.
Yeah, it's also the public.
The general public narrative is UFO equals kook.
So, when you were talking about magnesium and whatever these alloys are, what is specifically wrong with them that you don't think that it was manufactured by like a standard sort of alloy plant in the United States or somewhere else?
I mean, just what you said is what you said about the magnesium ratios.
Has there ever been any debunkers that have some sort of an explanation for why you would find that?
Do they think that your measurements are off?
Could you do it physically back then?
Now, what else was at this site and what is the story behind this site?
So when they found this puddle of molten metal and it's a bunch of different mixtures, so it seems like there's a bunch of different stuff that was there and it wasn't perfectly mixed.
Is there some sort of – like have you theorized some sort of a reason why they – any person or any creature or any being would do that?
And how is that – like how are you – what are you applying in terms of like real-world scenarios?
Is there something that you would extract from that kind of metal?
Like heating it up to a certain degree and having a mixture of all these things and this is just a byproduct that they're dropping off?
How are you applying this?
Thermite meaning that's how it was melted down.
Wacky kids with their thermite.
So it had to have been extreme heat.
And the amount of this stuff, the kind of cauldron that would have to exist in order to melt this would be immense.
Have you brought in anyone who's like a real expert in material sciences that would like theorize, like given an immense increase in technology and what potentially do you think this could be?
Yeah, it could actually be detrimental to your career.
And that's what's really weird about something when you're just talking about data, specifically in this case, an actual physical thing that anyone can measure.
My question about that mummy is not that it's an alien, but if it does register as human in the DNA, is it potentially a different kind of human than us?
And so it's just a genetic anomaly.
I do know that you've paid attention to the tridactyl mummies.
What is your take on that?
And not make it a circus.
And you do it behind the scenes.
And the Daily Mail headline is never accurate.
Well, the scans are fascinating, right?
Yeah, Jesse's a good friend.
And the episode that he did is fantastic.
And when you see the scans and they go over the bone structure of the thing and you look at it, you're like, God, that looks real.
If that's a hoax from 1,700 years ago or whatever it is, whoever, if the carbon isotope dating that they did on it is accurate.
I've looked at that data.
Because there's no way someone back then could fake that.
Okay, so it's a three-foot pregnant thing that doesn't look remotely human being.
So the jury is still out.
Have you talked to them?
Have you encouraged this?
Is it possible to nudge this in the right direction?
And where is it at right now?
The immune system allows the tumors?
There's also the bizarre anecdotal nature of some of the artworks.
Like the fact that these people did a lot of these tapestries and a lot of ancient artwork that's 1,000 years old that depicts these three-fingered things.
So it's like what are they describing?
Were they describing these actual creatures?
Was there only a few of them and it was a weird genetic mutation?
Or is this a common visitor that they're describing?
And if you didn't put them in a cave in Peru, what would be left?
The problem is it's really hard to make a fossil.
It's really hard to find bones.
Think about all the people that died.
And we don't find that many bones, relatively speaking, in comparison to the fucking billions of people that died.
It's not like we're tripping over human bones every day.
Right, except in mass graves.
And even in mass graves, given enough time, they will deteriorate.
Like mass graves from 1,000, 1,700 years ago, whatever these things are.
And when you think about these potential, whatever they are, whatever these creatures are, if we did find out that they are some sort of a hominid,
How much credence do you give to the theory that there's the possibility that these UFOs, UAPs, whatever it is, is a break-off civilization from a very, very long time ago that's very different from us, the same way we're very different from chimpanzees, which we coexist with?
I have no problem conjecturing that.
And also, if you think about what we are in comparison to chimps, we're so fragile, we're frail, we're easily injured.
Well, if you think of something that's far more technologically advanced than us, it would be even more frail.
It would be even more petite.
It would have almost no muscle at all.
Weirdly enough, like the grace from Close Encounters of the Third Kind.
That's what it would look like if it was a hominid that's whatever we are, and it went way past that.
That's such a fascinating thing about human beings is the biological variability is that everybody is – we're so the same, two lungs, a heart, but so different in how our body reacts to things and what happens to us and –
And also, why do you need opposable thumbs?
yeah right these things don't even have opposable thumbs that was what's weird about it right it's like how do you interact with your environment they look more like sloths than they do right i mean at least their hands do yeah and and i i don't know i find it well if everything's done with ai and automation and your interface is purely neurological like you have some sort of a human or a creature neural interface with technology
And you just use fingers to like lay them on electronics so that you can sync up with it.
Why are you picking things up, bro?
You don't have to pick things up anymore.
Those go away just like, you know.
Like the ones that are clearly constructed, that's where it gets fascinating because like what were you trying to reproduce?
And why are they so similar to the ones that look real?
Especially when you look at Peru.
Peru is like, you've got the Nazca lines, which are really weird.
You can only see them from the sky and they're everywhere and they're huge.
These depictions of very strange things.
One of the things that Jacques Vallée highlighted is there's an alloy, another piece of metal, some that they'd found that had layers like these at an atomic level.
if you wanted to make this alloy today, it would be almost impossible and it would cost billions of dollars.
Environmental factors, diet, stress, all sorts of different factors.
And you're kind of piecing together this puzzle of all these things.
Was this technology available at the time this supposed crash happened?
So if that's true and if the chain of evidence is correct and it really did come from that area, from that crash –
That's not a human creation.
Well, it wasn't a crash.
Is it possible they were doing that in 1970?
Well, Jacques Vallée is such a valuable researcher because he's so logical about the way he handles things and he doesn't jump to any conclusions.
And his descriptions of these materials and the origin of these materials is really compelling because it's just like –
If that's not really possible to make in 1970, then someone help me out.
And is it possible to make today?
And how much would it cost?
Yes, that does make sense.
Well, this brings me to the idea of crash retrieval and the idea that these crash retrievals started a long time ago and that Roswell was just one of many.
There's another one that was near Roswell that apparently was even more significant but didn't get in the newspaper.
It was the one that Jacques was involved with studying.
I'm basing this off of Richard Dolan's book.
But at the end of the day, the point being that if they did do that, if they really did back engineer something and then they started these completely top secret scientific projects.
research projects where they were developing alloys that had never existed before with techniques that they had never really even considered because they got it all from some spaceship.
Well, that's where it's really crazy if you don't disclose this information because you're basically putting a bottleneck on human evolution, human technological evolution and our understanding of what's actually possible.
You know, I mean, you see the results in their drone technology and electric cars and the things that are coming out of China recently.
That's a giant advantage.
When you're looking at these UAP things that people bring you, is there one that stands out as being the most compelling to you?
Because of the physical material?
Didn't they just stop operations?
Yeah, there was something on Twitter about something about equipment.
So explain this Skywatcher thing to people because it sounds insane.
You didn't see it with your naked eye?
Do they sometimes see things with the naked eye?
So are these things variable in their appearance?
But isn't there a group of people that just go out and they just using their mind, they meditate.
And supposedly they have some success as well.
I have no problem with that.
I don't have a problem with that either.
I don't have a problem with the idea that consciousness is kind of vaguely and barely understood.
And whatever our relationship to the universe itself and reality itself through consciousness, it's not fully defined.
And also, it might evolve just like all of our other intellectual capabilities.
Well, this is also probably the reason why when you go to the woods and there's no cell phone signals, the world feels different.
Because you're probably experiencing a bunch of signals that your brain vaguely interacts with.
you know, might not even necessarily be good for you.
But they're out there and they're a part of the world that you live in.
And you just you can't you don't have a radio.
So you're not like tuning into them.
You don't have a cell phone.
So you can't just like make calls with it.
But you're experiencing it.
Yeah, I don't know either.
I saw an interview that you did where you were describing the sighting off the coast of San Diego in 2004, the Nimitz sighting, where you said that the amount of power, why don't you describe it?
that that thing had to use to move the way it did.
Well, maybe that's the step of human evolution.
The evolution of our society and civilization is that AI has to come into power before we have access to all this other stuff.
That we do need an AI government structure.
That we do no longer require military intervention and all the shit that is the bane of civilization today.
Because if you ask the average person today, do you envision a world where war doesn't exist?
Most people are saying no.
The vast majority, except for a few delusional hippies.
They're going to say no, right?
But if you ask them, okay, given this super intelligent AI takes over the world and proves to be benevolent and really just wants to accentuate the life of human beings on Earth and make it better for everybody.
So maybe something like that has to take place before we get to a situation where, OK, this is how you really travel.
Now that you're not going to war anymore.
Listen, but you can already gravity bubbles.
What's your take on the Bob Lazar story?
A little bit of pettiness is great motivation.
Well, listen, man, I'm glad we finally did this.
Thank you so much for being here.
Thank you so much for all the research that you're currently involved in and all the stuff that you've done.
And it's been amazing talking to you.
I mean, his speed was so preposterous.
When he would forego the jab to lead with left hooks, which was just so crazy.
How about the Vinny Pazienza fight when he didn't get hit for the entire round?
The only round in CompuBox history where someone never got hit.
And he did it at both the amateur and pro level, too.
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And he was always fantastic, too, as a commentator because he would give insight that you're really not going to get from someone that's not like with these fighters day in, day out through an entire camp.
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Yeah, well, he was just so far above so many of the guys that he fought.
They just had no business being in there.
He had to play with his food.
Yeah, no, he was spectacular.
You know, he was one of those guys that's a unique once-in-a-lifetime talent that, unfortunately, though, his mistake was going up to heavyweight and then trying to go down to 175, which is...
unbelievably grueling because he was when he was 200 pounds at heavyweight he was 200 lean muscular fast pounds that was not like fat to lose and so to starve himself to get down to 175 like he was diminished and you saw that in the Tarver fight
25 pounds is so much weight to lose.
Not only that, it diminishes his endurance.
It diminishes durability.
He gets compromised because he can't take a punch as well because he's cut so much weight.
He really understood things.
When you go into the fight fatigued, you're feeling fatigued.
And then you've got a guy like Tarver who's infinitely talented and has legitimate knockout power.
And he's talking shit to you right before the fight.
Got any excuses tonight, Roy?
And then he knocks him out like, holy shit.
And he's another guy that with his boxing skill went all the way up to heavyweight because he was just so much better than everybody else.
Who won the championship.
Another light heavyweight.
You told me it was going to happen, and it happened.
Well, do you remember when George came back and he was 300 pounds and everybody was laughing at him?
And he was in his late 30s, I believe.
When he made his comeback, he hadn't fought in 10 years.
Everyone dismissed him like, what is he doing?
And no one believed in him.
I remember me as a boxing fan watching that comeback being sad.
Like, oh, George Foreman's coming back and he's all fat now.
Crazy that he predicted it that way because that's exactly how it played out.
If you haven't seen it, it's uncanny.
I was a giant Michael Moore fan when he was a light heavyweight.
I think a lot of people forgot how dangerous he was at light heavyweight.
He was one of the great light heavyweights.
Yeah, the southpaw thing was always so confusing to people because if you ever boxed before, you're so accustomed to that left hand being forward.
Then all of a sudden everything's reversed and now you're thinking.
And if you don't have a lot of southpaws that you train with on a regular basis, things aren't automatic anymore.
I was very pleased to hear you back on the microphone for that Times Square event.
And I think the greatest at angles of all time is Lomachenko.
Yeah, what a genius move to take him out of boxing for two years to study Ukrainian dance.
Because it had been so long.
And Usyk, who is basically like moves like a giant Lomachenko, just not quite as effective.
You can't quite move that well when you're 220 pounds.
You're just dealing with gravity and mass.
God, I was like, that's crazy.
It didn't make any sense.
Lomachenko in his prime was just a magical thing to watch.
It was like you were just watching poetry.
You were the best in the business.
It was amazing watching him just do something where you'd seen so many different versions of boxers.
And you watch him do it, and you're like, oh, my God, he put a new thing on this.
HBO was the best in the business.
And when they stepped away from boxing, I was really heartbroken.
I think the Kambosos fight was, I think he was just a little overconfident and he got caught.
And then that really rocked him.
That really shocked him.
He got dropped early in the fight.
Yeah, any combat sport, when you don't appreciate the potential that your opponent has to do damage.
Like the perfect examples, Juan Manuel Marquez versus Pacquiao.
They have three insane fights that are very close.
Marquez lands one bomb and starches Pacquiao.
He got a little overconfident, a little too aggressive.
Marcus was a gifted fighter.
But just like that one moment, like if that had happened in the first fight, we would look at the whole thing very differently.
This is like the margins, as you were saying, are so small for victory that when you see like a spectacular result, you do automatically assume, oh, that person is just that much better.
But sometimes it's just one error.
And then, you know, it's also how do you bounce back from that?
Like some people, the one moment, even if just a knockdown, they don't have the capacity to correct and stay safe and then regroup like they get shook.
And then now they're fighting from this position, this defensive position where they're a little bit gun shy.
Mayweather just did such a smart thing, but also a devious thing.
Waiting until Pacquiao was older, waiting until he slowed down.
Devious is not illegal in boxing.
That's how you retire with a 50-year record?
Yeah, he was great at talking shit.
He got everybody upset at him so badly that they wanted to see him lose.
And that would sell tons of pay-per-views.
Yeah, when he shifted from Pretty Boy Floyd to Money Mayweather, changed the whole thing.
And it would have been an interesting fight had he fought Pacquiao when he was younger in his prime.
It would have been a very different fight.
Yeah, it would have been much more interesting when they were younger.
Also the fact that Pacquiao fought him with a bum shoulder.
I mean, look, I guess he was faced with this thing, legacy, or, I mean, it was the biggest pay-per-view of all time in boxing, correct?
And I think it was like 4 million buys or something crazy like that?
Yeah, just lured Pacquiao into it.
Yeah, give them a cortisone shot, throw them out there.
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Unfortunately for us, I remember there was like a class action lawsuit.
A lot of people were upset that Pacquiao fought injured.
That happens a lot in the UFC.
There's a lot of fighters that fight injured.
That's such a crazy statement.
Yeah, I'd like to believe that that's true.
I'd like to believe it's true, too.
Let's make a pact to believe it's true.
The thing about Pacquiao that's so extraordinary is that he kept his power through eight weight classes.
What other fighter can you name that went through eight different weight classes as a world champion?
No, you were excellent at that.
It just didn't make any sense to me that, you know, and Kellerman, he's also excellent.
But there are physical gifts that you are just, they're just God-given gifts of power.
There's just certain guys, though, that just have extraordinary power.
Like, you remember Julian Jackson in his prime.
Yeah, it was just disturbing how hard he hit.
It was just different than everybody else, and it looked like he was doing the same thing, but the results were so much different.
How about Deontay Wilder?
A 209-pound heavyweight that's flattening people.
That's another guy we should bring up.
209 pounds when he fights Tyson Fury the first time.
But there's physical gifts that you are just God-given, and some people have them.
And Andre Ward is another excellent guy.
And these are the extraordinary outliers, the Deontay Wilders, the Julian Jacksons, the John Mugabes.
Ooh, I re-watched that Mugabe-Hagler fight the other day in the gym.
Hagler was my hero when I was a kid.
And he was one of the first guys.
The good thing about boxing was that HBO was completely independent from these promoters.
Yeah, no, he gamed the system a little bit.
He figured out how to flurry at the end of the rounds and make a big impression in the judges' eyes.
That was a very close fight, but that fight always bothered me.
And one of the things that bothered me is I felt like there were moments where Hagler could have turned it up and didn't.
And then when he retired after that fight and went to Italy and became a giant movie star in Italy, the conspiratorial part of my brain was always like, was that like one of those deals where...
where everybody assumed that Hagler was going to win.
Hagler had knocked out Tommy Hearns.
Hagler had beaten everybody in the division, knocked out Mugabe.
He was the man, you know?
Well, you know, he had accomplished so much and also his...
training camps were the stuff of legend.
I mean, he would spar a hundred rounds a week sometimes, which is just insane.
I mean, his conditioning and his drive and his will and his discipline, he was a monster.
He would scare the shit out of everybody just from his work ethic.
I remember I told the story there was a news piece when he was training on the Cape and it was in the middle of the winter and he was fighting Mustafa Hampshire and he was running down the sand dunes screaming war.
With combat boots on in the winter.
And I remember thinking, war, war.
Yeah, there's a difference.
Because you think you're disciplined.
You think you're driven.
You think you're special.
And then you see a guy like that.
He's what my friend David Goggins calls uncommon amongst uncommon men.
Yeah, there's a giant difference in the undercard pay.
One of the greatest of all time.
One of the greatest fights of all time.
Because Hagler just threw caution to the wind.
Remember after he broke his hand, he tried just throwing the jab out there.
You could tell early on in the first round when he broke his hand.
Because from then on, he's moving.
But he's already endured so much damage.
I mean, they have just thrown each other into the wood chipper.
Both guys were just blasting away.
I remember being in my living room when Hearns went down and just going, wow.
And this was after Hearns had knocked out Duran.
Well, the UFC treats the entire card as an enormous event.
And I thought nobody could knock out Duran.
When Hearns flatlined Duran, I was like, good lord.
To see Duran face down on the canvas was like...
Yeah, you have to check your eyes.
He has one knockdown attributed to him in his career, and it's bullshit.
So they have elite fighters fight in the entire card.
Well, even against a guy like Bivol, who's huge.
Like one of the problems with boxing is you would just say, when's the main event?
A huge light heavyweight.
I think that would be a nightmare matchup.
Even though he's almost 40 now, right?
One of the scariest of all time at 175.
He's another one of those guys.
But with him, it's volume.
It's not one shot, but it's this thudding volume that never ends, this constant attack.
And you didn't, the other stuff is just nonsense.
Well, he made brilliant adjustments in the second fight.
Whereas the UFC, you look at it like, oh, look who's fighting first fight of pay-per-view.
I think Riyadh Season was trying to put that together.
I think they're trying to put together a third fight, and I really hope they do make that fight.
Yeah, you kind of have to do it now before Beterbiev is just—he's probably past his prime already.
Power right okay, and but in skill the skill thing like here's the best example that Bernard Hopkins who?
Has maintained their skill deep into their 40s in fact at a world-class level at 49 years old beating like top contenders at 49 years old and
There's five fights on pay-per-view.
First fight of pay-per-view is a banger.
And everybody's – the seats are packed and everybody's excited to see it.
Yes, that's the big one.
Whereas everybody starts shuffling in about 20 minutes before Canelo fights in one of these big boxing events.
I remember when he was middleweight champion and he wasn't getting the credit that he felt like he deserved and he was squabbling with promoters and they kept him on the shelf.
I'm like, my God, he's like wasting away in the prime of his life.
And I felt like we were going to miss out on the prime of his life.
And then here he gets into the Felix Trinidad fight.
And I was like, this guy is crazy watching this guy completely outclass Tito Trinidad.
That, I think, is kind of unfortunate.
Well, those are the stories that are so inspiring about boxing, right?
The people that have used boxing as a vehicle to get out of their circumstances.
And a little bit short-sighted.
Yeah, that was a great show, man.
That was another bummer when HBO stopped doing boxing.
Well, look- But it had to be successful for them.
In public perception or profitability?
One of my favorite TV fights was him versus Marvis Frazier because it was such a terrifying execution.
We knew coming into that fight.
It was a perfect fight for Mike to showcase because Marvis had the giant name because he was Joe Frazier's son.
And Joe Frazier had been trash-talking Mike.
It helped to create what ultimately became the myth of Mike Tyson.
But Buster Douglas had underperformed most of his career and had not been motivated.
Lit him up and never again.
Constant turmoil and partying and feeling invincible.
She's the wrong woman, period.
There's certain women out there like that.
They can tank your life.
Yeah, and unfortunately.
I mean, HBO at that time was the premier network for combat sports.
That was one of the best things about you and Merchant and just the entire commentary team at HBO was that you had these intelligent, articulate people involved in what many people think of as the most barbaric of all sports.
So it defined it in a very different way.
The work that you guys had done in boxing was the top of the food chain.
It certainly was elevated.
But it has to be with the commentators.
The same exact event with crude commentators is not the same experience because you don't get that intelligent, articulate analysis.
And a guy like Larry Merchant, who had been around boxing for his entire life and had a deep understanding of it, and you, and then it's even the funny back-and-forth banter between Larry and George Foreman when they would disagree on things.
Yeah, having a great team like that.
And it was also, there was the flow where you guys had worked together so often.
It was just so well honed.
It was just a well-polished machine.
It's just so hard to believe that you could achieve the highest level of combat sports, the heavyweight champion of the world, and yet have this really rank amateur corner.
One of the issues is they wanted to replace the commentators.
And it comes with success, all the trappings.
I mean, he was just constantly, you know.
Have you had him in here?
So if we came over there, I wouldn't go over there as well.
The first time I met him, it's hard to believe he's really in the room.
You're like, I can't believe he's real.
Me as a child, I remember when I was a kid, I guess I wasn't a child, I'm only a year younger than him, but when he lost to Buster Douglas, I didn't watch it until after the fight.
I watched a replay of it, and I still expected him to win.
You know how crazy that is?
That's the kind of aura that Mike Tyson had.
I remember I heard about it in a gas station.
Someone told me in a gas station.
I was getting gas, and I heard, did you hear Mike Tyson got knocked out?
And I remember pumping gas, and I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about?
Like, Buster Douglas knocked out Mike Tyson?
The problem with that is in mixed martial arts, there's a very small pool of people who have a deep understanding of the entire history of the sport.
And you can't just hire a regular sports guy to take that part.
Now that you said it, I remember that.
They're not going to be able to get it.
It was energetic but matter-of-fact.
It was a little bit higher.
I just remember Buster Douglas winning that fight thinking, man, what happens to him now?
I thought it was a right hand.
Yeah, Jamie will find it.
But, yeah, he just never reached those heights again.
Yeah, I mean, also like the.
It's cemented in my mind because I remember, what year was that?
And so this is probably 91 then?
Yeah, I just remember, you know, when someone does something extraordinary and rise to the occasion, I always root on them.
Like, wow, he's going to turn his life around.
Well, and also I was a giant Holyfield fan, too.
So it was one of those conflicted fights.
And Holyfield, to me, was extraordinary because what he did with Mackie Shillstone in his training.
It was one of those things where Holyfield was one of the first guys that really embraced weightlifting.
And I remember as a young fighter, I was always told, if you lift weights, it'll slow you down.
Weights will make you stiff.
Weights will slow you down.
You should never lift weights.
And so I listened to that, and I never lifted weights.
And then I remember watching Holyfield train for his –
heavyweight debut thinking, God, I remember his fight with Dwight Muhammad Kawi.
When he was a cruiserweight, I was thinking, how is this guy going to go up to heavyweight?
How is this going to work?
But also, one of the first applications of real modern science in regards to strength and conditioning.
What Mackie Shillstone was doing was like very revolutionary.
And to see him do all these crazy strength and cardio routines and putting all that mass on and seeing all the doubters and naysayers.
He worked with quite a few fighters, didn't he, Mackie?
I believe Mackie worked with quite a few fighters.
Everybody saw that the results were there.
Everybody kind of changed their opinion on that kind of stuff.
I mean, MMA guys are led.
I mean, with MMA, you have the grappling aspect of it.
Without strength and conditioning, you really can't compete.
It's not really possible at this day and age.
Everyone uses strength and conditioning.
There's very few fighters that just train using skill, just train skills.
Pierre did that for a certain period of his career.
And the worst case, I mean, they definitely did calisthenics, but that was it.
It was just body weight exercises, you know, which brings us to Crawford, which I think is really interesting.
The Crawford Canelo fight.
How does Crawford compete with that size?
And, you know, we have to recognize, okay, well, when Canelo fought Floyd, it was 152 pounds, right?
So he had dropped down, which was a struggle for him, which is why Floyd was so brilliant in getting him to go down to 152 because he knew he would be drained.
Well, all I was doing was just following my interests.
Well, the weight class, I believe, was 54, but I believe the clause in the contract for that fight was that he get down to 52.
Let's see if that's true.
I'm pretty sure that that's true, that they had a fight at one point.
I love fact-checking on the fly.
Now Canelo goes all the way up to 68 and then even to 75 and now back down to 68, whereas Crawford is leapfrogging.
And I've always been a huge boxing fan from the time I was a child.
He's going, he goes to super middleweight.
He's going 47 to 54 and now to 68.
And the Madrival fight in 54 is a difficult fight.
Yeah, well, I have a goofy memory.
It works a lot of the time, but sometimes not.
Sometimes it's like super accurate.
Sometimes it's super accurate, and sometimes it's just terrible.
But certain things I do remember.
And I do remember because of the weight cutting thing.
Because I remember thinking, like, what a brilliant move to get him to do that.
The same thing that Javante Davis did with Ryan Garcia.
Like, you can't rehydrate.
Which is like... No rehydration.
Can you remember what your first fight was?
That's such a sucker bet.
But it's like the same thing with Pacquiao taking the fight when it's a bum shoulder.
Yeah, you're fucking with him.
The first fight I watched, my parents watched it, which was crazy because my parents were hippies.
And boy, the Lamont Roach fight.
Well, that was a knockdown.
Ooh, 100% was a knockdown.
Without that, you have a decision victory for Roach, and he's a superstar.
Now you have this fucking draw that they have to fight again.
But now Gervonta knows what's coming.
They had fought in the amateurs, correct?
Tank is another guy that has experienced all the trappings of fame, all the success and the money and all the jewelry and all the craziness and the ladies.
And Roach is a hungry motherfucker who can really fight.
And they were really interested in Ali's rematch with Leon Spinks.
And he should have got his flowers after that fight.
And a lot of the boxing people recognize that was a knockdown.
Forever in history books.
It's not a knockdown when you take a punch to the face and then you take a knee That is a fucking knockdown period end of story.
There's definitely something to that.
So Lamont will have a lot of fans on his side going into that second fight.
Yeah, when Leon had beat Muhammad Ali.
Scheduled for August 16th in Las Vegas.
Because Muhammad Ali was a cultural icon as much as he was a sports figure.
Boy, I might go to that.
Let me check real quick.
I'll call you later that night and let you know.
I'll have it on my phone.
I'll set my phone up and have it there while the fight's going on.
So who do you like in Canelo versus Crawford?
Well, I'm a giant Crawford fan because I think he's the best switch hitter since Marvin Agler.
I also think he's one of those guys that if you tell him he can't do something, he wants to show you and shock the world.
I also think Canelo is slowing down, and Canelo is more of a one-punch fighter now than the combination fighter he was when he was younger.
But I think there's a...
In boxing and certainly in MMA, there's a certain amount of years where a fighter can keep the RPMs up when they're in the red line.
Some people subscribe to the idea of nine years.
Nine years is the most that an elite fighter in MMA has performed at their prime.
I think that's a bullshit number because I think it's entirely dependent upon lifestyle, nutrition, discipline, physical attributes.
There's a lot of factors.
So 10 complete years off.
And his opposition to the Vietnam War made him a hero to many Americans.
So you have to like factor in.
And George is biologically very unusual.
He had canned hams for fists.
They were gigantic fists.
And boy, one of my favorite all-time heavyweight wars was him and Ron Lyle.
God, that fight was crazy.
That was an insane fight.
Both guys rocked and hurt.
And Ron Lyle's another one of those guys who's just kind of lost in the history books.
People sort of forgot, except for that fight.
There's a few of those guys that people just kind of have forgotten.
Cleveland Williams is a murderer.
But Ali just boxed his face off and put him away.
The first Liston fight was crazy.
And also the crazy thing was there was something probably on Liston's gloves, right?
What a dirty business to put something on your gloves to get in someone's eyes when you punch them.
put holes in the gloves, removed some of the stuffing, and watered it down.
And then he also did something to his hand wraps as well, right?
He was hitting Cotto with bricks.
Yeah, that was a hand-wrapped thing.
I'm conflating these two stories in my mind with Louis Resto and Billy Collins.
So, Louis Resto was with Panama Lewis.
Panama Lewis, who famously gave that drink to Aaron Pryor.
Get me the one that I fixed.
And then Aaron Pryor goes out and knocks out Alexis Arguello, which is alleged to have been cocaine.
A lot of people think it was cocaine, because Aaron then went to famously have a cocaine problem.
Yeah, if you're exhausted and all of a sudden you get a bump and you fire it up and you go out there and fuck him up, you could help you.
Certainly if you're tired.
Yeah, 100% it would help.
I've never done cocaine, but I'm just guessing.
But in that moment, I guess, you know, in that moment, especially if you're a person who imbibes and, you know, you've had a history of cocaine.
And then, you know, what does it do?
It boosts up confidence and it's a stimulant.
I would imagine that Alexis Arguello fight.
He was a politician in Nicaragua, right?
So I was conflating those.
So with Margarito, I think it was just the raps where they had put Plaster Paris in his raps.
and Louis Resto was a fight where Billy Collins was this up and coming fighter and he fought Louis Resto and Louis Resto was like breaking his face open with every punch.
And so Resto, then when the fight was over, Billy Collins' dad grabs Resto's gloves and realizes there's no padding in the gloves.
And then Billy Collins' career is over and he winds up drinking himself to death.
He actually drove into a tree.
You know, the guys, he couldn't see after that fight.
I mean, his vision was fucked for the rest of his life for as long as he lived after that.
And everyone was so confused because they couldn't believe that this guy, Louis Resto, was not known as being this big puncher, was just busting him up with every shot he landed.
It's a dirty business, man.
And Panama Lewis was – he did some corner work with Mike Tyson as well.
Like later in Mike's career when everything was kind of chaotic and he had all those wackadoos in his corner?
Panama Lewis was like on the sidelines there but wasn't able to be officially a part of it because he was still banned.
Well, you've got to think, this is also 12 years after the Buster Douglas loss.
Which is a long time in boxing.
I didn't know this happened.
They break their hands all the time.
And back then, they probably had terrible...
I was watching a piece yesterday about it was a YouTube video on Sugar Ray Robinson and his training and the type of training that Sugar Ray would do and how phenomenal his dedication was.
And if you think about a guy that like when he had his first loss, how many fights had he won?
You know how crazy that is?
Stop and think about how insane that is.
Is it still there or is it gone?
I'd love to go sometime.
Sugar Ray Robinson was one of the first guys also that showed how effective being a great dancer.
The thing about his training, this video that I was watching, was so interesting to watch someone who's really just ahead of the curve, above everybody.
No one really understood how to move like that.
And then, of course, Cassius Clay, his favorite fighter, Sugar Ray Robinson.
And also the ability to objectively analyze your skills and recognize where you need to advance and what you need to do differently.
And you can have an idea of what's effective, but until you see someone come along and do something totally different, that's where the innovators come in, where the real groundbreakers come in.
I bet before Sugar Ray Robinson, you had Willie Pepp.
He recreated our approach to the sport.
Well, you see a lot of that now in MMA.
You see a lot of footwork and movement and switching stances.
It's like a fighter that can't switch stances in MMA.
It's kind of archaic because you— I think we'll reach that point in boxing, too.
Well, Hagler was an example of one of the first guys to be a switch hitter that people sort of dismissed.
Yeah, I think he can win.
I don't know if he's going to win, but I think he can win.
So he's going to have to box a brilliant fight.
Yeah, what a classic, Jim.
Canelo has such unique skills.
And one of the weird things that he does that very few people since Rocky Marciano does is he punches your arms.
He brutalizes your arms.
Why the fuck would you do that when you're training for a fight?
What if the horse falls?
I wasn't even aware of that until you brought that up.
There he is with his horses.
That completely makes sense if you think about it.
Squeezing with the lower legs.
The core strength that you have to have.
And he was one of the first guys to realize, like, if you crank the heat up, it actually gives guys better conditioning.
I went home and thought about it, and I thought, he's right.
But wouldn't positive, constructive advice being, if you enjoy this, there's some other stuff that you need to do.
That makes so much sense.
Also, he's got a square head.
I mean, just the evolution in the three fights with Triple G. Triple G was one of my all-time favorites.
And he would do weird stuff, like throw a left hook over the top and hit the top of your head.
He would throw a left hook like that, like a looping overhand left.
Yeah, but the way Triple G would do it, it would be going down on you.
And he would hit you in the forehead, or the temple, which is where a lot of people lose their equilibrium.
Well, whatever they do in Kazakhstan, it might be different from what they do in the United States.
Another guy, we've got to talk about Julio Cesar Chavez, who's also one of my all-time favorites.
Julio Cesar Chavez in his prime, he would just systematically break people down.
And the volume, the constant attack and volume.
It wasn't a one-punch guy.
What is it, two seconds before the final bell that the fight gets stopped?
Larry Hazard stops it and everybody wants to kill him?
That's right, Richard Steele.
Okay, so you corrected me on one earlier and now I got you.
Would you be okay with it?
No, it's interesting, right, the subjective calls of stoppages by referees.
It's one of the toughest things.
Imagine what that did to his psyche.
Like every time you go out there, you have the whole crowd.
I think he wound up committing suicide.
That's what I was going to say.
Did Richard Steele commit suicide?
And you've got to imagine the kind of depression that would come just knowing that you altered the course of boxing history.
There's one where he won, but he shouldn't have won.
One of the greatest defensive boxers of all time.
Certainly in the top five.
And I remember that decision being called and I was like...
Didn't Chavez have a decision win over Pernell Whitaker as well?
So is that one similar as well?
I don't really recall that one as much.
Well, Whitaker was like underappreciated because it was so defensively brilliant.
He knocked a lot of guys out as well.
When you look back at your career and all the fights that you called and think about the beginnings and think about when they were trying to just get you out of the business and by giving you boxing, it's almost like
It's very much a storybook tale.
And they took three years of his prime.
I always point to the Cleveland Big Cat Williams fight.
But he didn't train for three years.
That's part of the problem.
And, you know, at 30 years old in that day and age, it was just a different world.
You don't train for three years.
Yeah, it's just they just robbed him.
They robbed us, too, because he came back and he's a different fighter than he was much more easy to hit.
And, you know, he became, you know, he relied on his chin more.
And, you know, he didn't have the fleet of foot movement that he had before then.
Well, the championship mind was always there.
What are the odds that they pick that player?
But as a fan of boxing, it drives me crazy.
Well, I think you're the best ever.
That's how it had to play out.
That's how it had to play out.
And that's how it played out.
The Richard Steele thing?
Somebody else committed suicide.
Did Larry Hazard commit suicide?
Because you imagine what we could have seen in those three years if Ali had never been robbed, never took his title away, and allowed him to fight all those guys like Joe Frazier, George Foreman, all those guys with keeping the same skills that he had when he was younger.
Yeah, Larry Hazard is athletic commissioner right now.
Oh, Mitch Halpern committed suicide.
There was a very controversial fight, right?
A similar type situation.
My apologies to Richard Steele.
What was the big controversial fight?
And also Richard Green committed suicide after the Mancini-Kim fight.
Similar situation with Ducku Kim when he dies, famously on national television, Ray Boom Boom Mancini, and then that referee winds up committing suicide as well.
And there's been so many instances over time.
Of guys recovering and coming back to win the fights.
So many fights that could have been stopped.
And if they were, who knows what we've gotten.
I was just thinking of the Diego Corrales fight Diego Corrales who with that crazy fight where he's knocked down multiple times then comes back to win by knockout and
That might have been it.
And Corrales comes back and wins.
And I believe he died in a motorcycle accident.
Listen, I'm glad we had a chance to talk.
And your book is available.
Did you do the voiceover?
Can you imagine if somebody else, if they forced somebody else to record your audio book?
Do you know the boxing writer Tom Hauser?
Well, I'm going to listen to your book because that's how I absorb most of my books.
Well, I've given away a lot of it to you.
No, I don't give a fuck.
I'm listening to the whole damn thing.
And I really hope that Netflix chooses you for the Canelo fight, the Canelo Crawford fight.
That would be fantastic.
Like I said, it made me so happy to hear you on the Time Square card.
Too bad the fights weren't.
But what do you think that is about?
Because there's a lot of people that have said that Turkey is spending so much money that he's spoiling these guys and they're afraid to lose and that they're fighting safe.
Oh for sure Yeah, and then also the tragic ending, you know, the the staying in too long and too many beatings, you know the the Just the seeing him at the end of his life was just so horrible, you know And we all know that that was trauma induced We all know that and it's just it was just sad to see we haven't seen that yet in MMA, right?
He also landed that left hook of his own and rocked him and dropped him, and I think that changed the entire— Absolutely.
What did you think about Devin Haney's performance?
Because I felt like that was an example of a guy coming off of the Ryan Garcia fight where he got dropped multiple times.
He needed to put on a show and he didn't.
He just looked different.
If you go back to him versus Lomachenko.
Well, you definitely can draw a line between a guy getting rocked and dropped on multiple occasions from a person that he was supposed to beat easily.
If you look at his boxing skill, you look at what he had done to Kambosis.
I mean, he just boxed his face off.
He looked fantastic in that fight.
If you can convince yourself of that.
The problem is once you start saying that, people start saying, fuck you, and then the boos get louder.
I'm talking about saying it to yourself.
No one says anything to themselves anymore.
If you say something publicly, the whole world responds now.
It's not like a guy living in 1976.
This is the different world we're living in.
Just don't read the comments.
Jim Lampley, I appreciate you very much, and I'm a giant fan, and I'm really glad you're back in boxing.
And your book, It Happened, A Uniquely Lucky Life in Sports Television, is available now.
He's a good friend of mine.
So we have a mutual friend.
No, not quite, but you're seeing some damage.
You're seeing some guys that are really struggling.
They're not as public, so you're not seeing it from a George St.
Pierre or someone like that.
George is one of the very unique former champions who has all of his wits, his faculties, retired as champion.
Roy Jones is a good example.
And Roy, you know, Roy famously after Gerald McClellan was hurt when the Nigel Benn fight, he was really concerned because Gerald McClellan was the guy that a lot of people thought was a giant threat to Roy.
I know that that loss that McClellan had and the subsequent medical issues, the stroke and the aneurysm, all that stuff really disturbed Roy and made him think about getting out early.
Who else in recent memory led with left hooks?
But his talent was insane.
But it was also like he was just showing people he was kind of playing with his food He's like I gonna play a basketball game and then go and easily win a fight same night It's interesting to use the phrase playing with his food.