Jim Comey
Appearances
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
Who's working on it already? What would be good measurements of achievement against that threat? And given those threats, how would we rank them? And then we do the same thing in each of the 56 field offices and then come up for each field office with a separate list of these are your priorities and this is how we're going to measure success.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
And then she explained to me that when she was a server, which she did throughout school, that 86 was a restaurant term. And I said, no, I don't know that. I used to hear it as a kid. We would say 86 this place when we were at a bar or a restaurant that was dull. We want to go someplace else. So she said, oh, you should take a picture of that. I said, cool. I took a picture of it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
whether you're making progress against them, really rigorous. And we would go to Congress each year and say, you should invest in the FBI because we'll show you how we're spending our money. And we'll show you whether we're making good on our promises to spend the money this way. And I couldn't move more than $100,000 in total value.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
So in equipment or people without going to Congress and getting permission to Because a law had passed that said, this is how you shall spend your money. And it was based on what we had told them we were going to spend it on. So how you move lots of people to immigration and how you do it consistent with the rigor of that prioritization process mystifies me.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
Because I assume that terrorism and counterintelligence are still at the top of the stack. And so what's the rationale for the move? And what does Congress say about the move? I can't tell you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
Well, it risks being a false statement, which you really don't want to do at the FBI. But yeah, if Congress is going to wink and nod because you're going to say that, you know, it's national security work because we're protecting the border. I guess at that point, the rigor of the threat review process has increased. Been thrown over.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
But sure, I guess if Congress is going to let you do it, you can do whatever you want.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
I think that's right. I mean, you get that sense across a broad spectrum of issues that Congress has just folded it up and that leg of the constitutional stool doesn't exist anymore. And so it's no longer that the president's responsible for taking care of the law, be faithfully executed. He kind of gets to make the law now. That seems to be what's going on across the spectrum.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
No, I'm very worried. And because we spent 50 years after Hoover died trying to build an FBI that stood apart. It was in the executive branch, but not of the executive branch, spiritually, culturally, because... We needed that. And when I was nominated to be FBI director, Republican senators and Democrats all said the same thing. You must protect the independence of that institution.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
It can't be part of politics. It can't be on anybody's team because you have to investigate everybody. Over and over again, they told me the same thing. And that's reflected in the 10-year term, which is symbolic, right? The president can fire, was legally entitled to fire an FBI director, me in this case. But the 10-year term is to signal something
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
And then I posted on Instagram when we got back home and thought no more of it. And I thought it was just a cool way for someone to express a political view. And then I heard later in that day that people were saying it was a threat to assassinate the president. And I was like, oh, my God. I've never heard 86 used in that context. I actually still haven't.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
And it's the reason that when Barack Obama was playing basketball in the FBI basketball court downstairs, I knew he was there. I never went down because Louis Freeh didn't hang out with the president. Bob Mueller didn't hang out with the president. I didn't hang out with the president because we're trying to protect the reality and the reputation of the FBI as separate.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
And now you see the FBI director hanging out with the president, laughing with the president, socializing with the president. That is Something that symbolizes a real worry that I have, that we're going to lose what we spent 50 years building. Now, can we rebuild it? Of course. But in the meantime, good people won't come to the FBI. Good people leave the FBI.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
And more than anything else, people won't trust the FBI. Jurors, witnesses, victims, sheriffs, police chiefs. people that we need to know the FBI is going to be criticized because we play our games on national television in a polarized environment. But if you're not trusted, you can't do the work.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
I mean, during our dinner at the White House alone, I tried to explain to Donald Trump during Trump 1.0 why it was in his interest to have an institution that he could give the hardest problems to and say, well, they're not on my squad. They're figuring it out according to the law and the facts. It's without fear or favor. And when you lose that, you lose something important. It's a paradox.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
The closer you try and hold that institution, the more problems you create. And I shouldn't use the word paradox. You didn't know what I was talking about. But something is really important and in danger when you conduct the business the way they're doing it now.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
I'm not sure there's much I can say if you're going to be trapped in a bubble like that. And there really are bubbles. I mean, when someone yells, fuck you at me on the street, I have to pause and say, is that a Clintonian fuck you or a Trumpian fuck you? And I look for context clues and location and inflection. And it's because people are trapped in their own bubbles.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
But I thought, man, I want no part of anything like that. So I took it down immediately and posted a little statement explaining why I took it down. And that's the Shell story.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
Why were both sides angry at us? at different times is because we were doing investigations in difficult circumstances without regard to persons, without fear of favor. But if people are going to say, you know, they invaded Trump's home and leave aside the fact that they had a court-ordered search warrant and all that sort of thing, there's not much you can say to them.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
And I just wish there were a way to make the bubbles go away.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
No, I think we've touched on the right things. There is danger in having the FBI be an attachment to the White House and part of the president's personal team. And it's the reason I was so freaked when Donald Trump asked for loyalty. It's the reason, for example, Louis Freeh surrendered his White House pass when the FBI was participating in investigations that touched the Clinton administration.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
You cannot be on the team and do the work credibly. But I think that's the kind of concern you and I have talked about.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
No, both in general and in particular with Maria Bartiromo. I'd be on the bulwark, obviously. Look, these guys, in an odd way, I kind of feel sorry for them because they spent years barking nonsense about the FBI and its work to their followers. And then the dogs not only caught the car, they have to drive the car.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
And nothing in their lives have prepared them for that, but they're also now driving in a reality-based universe where facts matter and statements have to be under oath and there's accountability in the courts. And so the nonsense has to go away, but their followers who grew up on this They don't see it the same way. And so I got to imagine they're under tremendous pressure.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
And look, you can take joy in that. I actually think it'd be better if they didn't have that kind of distraction and they were a different kind of person and could run the FBI without worrying about the followers they had lied to.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
No, that's the great thing. People at the beach seem to focus on The things they should focus on, the water, the waves, their families, they're not looking. I'm hardly a celeb, but they're not looking for celebs. And it was a big sort of the point area of a barrier island that's a gigantic collection of sand. And so it's not crowded at all.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
Yeah, that's right. And they spent years saying the FBI was a corrupt, deep state cabal of leftists. And I guess they changed that on day one because on day one, it became the greatest investigative agency in the world.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
which I believe is the actual truth and that they saw it on day one, I guess is a wonderful thing, but it's going to take their followers a while to catch up, which puts them in a spot.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
Yeah. On the face of it, it's beyond fiction. And if I put it in my next book, my editor would strike it out saying, got to write something closer to reality. Right. At the heart of every public corruption investigation is proving the challenge of proving corrupt intent beyond a reasonable doubt that when people took an action and
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
because the defense that's offered in almost every public corruption case is that I had no intention. of influencing, or it never occurred to me that this might be wrong. Again, the challenge with Donald Trump, though, is that he robs banks without a mask, right? He does it in the middle of the day so he can say, I'm not a bank robber.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
I'm sure I have a gun, but who would do this in the middle of the day with no mask? And so it, in an odd way, presents this is not going to be investigated given the nature of the leadership of the Department of Justice, but if they tried to investigate it, that's actually an impediment, this bizarre brazenness But it's not going to be looked at anyway.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
The one involving Congressman, I think, Jefferson from Louisiana, where the FBI search found stacks of cash in his freezer that he had taken, as I recall it, expressly to influence what he did with legislation, and then he put it in the freezer. That was one of the worst. I mean, obviously, the Menendez case with the gold bars and the money in his pockets, those are examples that leap to mind.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
But unfortunately, there's plenty of others.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
We just can't let it... overwhelm us. There's a real danger that we'll just become numb, that we can't even see norms and rules in the rearview mirror. We're so far past it. And we just can't, we can't let it happen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
And, you know, we become numb to the fact that I'm obviously spent my career as a lawyer, seeing these law firms knuckle under and basically mortgage part of the business to Donald Trump that it's happened so much that there's a risk we will become numb to it, which is why we have to keep calling it out. It's why you have to do what you do.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
I'm sure you don't enjoy having to talk about it every day, but we cannot let it become normal.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
Yeah. And talking about it as a spectacle is like it's the Met Gala. It's not about the fashion and the form. There's something deeply, substantively troubling about this. It's not a spectacle. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
I'm not a big Instagram-er. I tend to post family stuff, political stuff, and book stuff. Last fall at the beach, I saw something I thought was cool and I posted it, which was someone had painted inside a big shell endorsement of Kamala Harris. So I remember posting that. I'm not a big poster, but when I see something that strikes me as funny or interesting, I post it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
Well, because I am a devoted fan, I was watching and listening when that man said that hurtful thing about me. And I thought, yeah, you bastard. My family, at least on the surface, seems to like me a lot. My dog died a few years ago, but was very fond of me. So I, I look, I, I have to laugh. I'm married to a trained marriage and family therapist, thank God.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
So I have in-house help, but I'm a happy person because I- You ever feel like you need a hug? If I need a hug, I got five kids. I got five grandchildren. I watch my grandchildren all the time. And so my life is full of hugs and people who tell me I'm awesome, but that's because I'm their pop.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
Yeah, that's right. And I knew that's what he was talking about. And he's right. I mean, there are partisans on the bell curve at both wings. Many of them have strong negative feelings for me. I can't do anything about that. And so it just is what it is. But yeah, the MAGA world is wrong that I am some influential figure, especially on the left side of the political spectrum. I'm a bulwarker.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
I have no home except a group of people of principle who don't really care if we're liked, but care deeply about this country and its values.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
I would hope so. Again, I had never heard of it used in a threatening sense. I actually still haven't seen any examples of from literature or theater or any place else where it's used as a threat. But I mean, I took the post down because I thought whether it's reasonable or not, if people are going to say that, I want no part of that. It's my Instagram account for God's sakes.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
I hope we keep the meatballs and they remain free.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
I have not flown into JFK in many years. LaGuardia is Valhalla of airports, I'm told. So I would fly to LaGuardia. Valhalla's nice.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
We have history, but I feel like we're over the history. And she was guilty as heck, but... She was punished for her crime, and so I have nothing against her cookbook, so I wouldn't 86 it in any sense. We're not 86ing it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
I get asked that fairly frequently. Most often people just say, how tall are you? But yeah, I wouldn't 86 that because people don't mean it in any negative way. So I would let that one go.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
That one I might want to have in the rearview mirror.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
No, embrace. Important part of being alive and staying sane. Knowing the difference, doing things you can change and things you can't, and having wisdom and connection with both. All right.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
You may see less of that in my future Instagram posts.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
It's a story about a right-wing podcaster based in New York who is trying to motivate his followers to physically target and engage in acts of violence against people he doesn't like. a variety of people around the country. Does he post seashell pictures to do that? There are no seashell pictures.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
Another thing that an editor would have stricken is making no sense at all. So it's about this podcaster and my protagonist, Nora Carlton, whether she can make a case and stop the violence. And it's about policing this line, which is really important between speech and crime and about the challenges she faced. And it's a twisty courtroom drama in the main that I won't give anything away, but it's,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
It's real. It's true to the way things are really done. And I think it will hold people pretty well.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
S.B. It must have been deep in the subconscious.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
It does in the sense that I have to figure out what to write next that will be interesting but not turn off readers. Readers don't want to read in my stuff. what they're getting in the news every day. I think it would depress them. And so I have to – you write these books. I write these books a year in advance. I'm just finishing the fourth, which is a Russian espionage story.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
And so Russian espionage will still be relevant in 2026.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
Like they called you in? Yeah, they called me that night and I talked to an agent on the phone and he said, look, this may be the end of it, but if they want to do an in-person interview, would you do that? And I said, of course. So, just let me know what you want. I'll be home tomorrow afternoon.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
I hadn't even thought of that. But who knows, right? You're supposed to skate to where the puck will be. I have no idea where the puck is going to be a year from now. So I wrote this book not knowing what America would do. be exactly like in May of 2025.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
But I knew that this question of, so where is the line between speech and violence and the influence of these right-wing voices of hate would still be a feature of our life. So next spring, Russian espionage will still be a feature of our life. I don't know what the book after that will be. And then I'll be out of the Trump administration, God willing, I think, by that point.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
No, it's about choosing the right life partner. My spouse keeps all that online. We start by the two of us talking about what might be a cool story. And then we agree that this is what the story will be. And I go off and write a detailed summary of it. So like a five, 10 page capturing how it's going to go. And then we figure out, so which parts of that should I show to the reader and when?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
Then I go off to write, and she follows it on a Google Doc. And the reason it's so important is she's smarter than I, but she's also read much more fiction than I. And so she says, I'm every reader. And she'll say, ah, no, no, no, you're drifting, or your characters are starting to sound like each other, or this is repetitive.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
I get that loving feedback in little bubbles on a Google Doc, and that keeps me online. Then I go out to the five kids with the story. My protagonist is inspired by my oldest daughter, who is the lead prosecutor in the P. Diddy case today. And so I get a lot of feedback about the story and about the particulars because I want to keep it current. And they helped me a lot with that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
And they reached back out and said, look, when you get home, we'd love to have you in for a personal interview. I said, sure. Can you give me a ride? Because I didn't want to be walking through a, nothing against the media, but didn't want to be walking through a bunch of cameras. And so they came to my house, gave me a ride, said, do you want to sit in the back or the front?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
No, what helps me is I've based the key characters on real people, right? The investigator in the case, Benny Dugan, he was in all the books, is closely based on one of my friends who died in 2006 from melanoma and was the best investigator I ever knew. He was an enormous 6'5", 250, deep Brooklyn-accented, brush-cut hair guy, and I can hear him
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
You know, he used to call me Mr. Smooth, but he would say, Mr. Smooth. And so I can hear his voice. And what I do is I spend a lot of time closing my eyes and trying to hear it And then I type on my laptop. I sit there with it open and my fingers in the keyboard and just say, okay, Kenny, what is he saying now? And that makes it easier for me than a made-up character.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
It keeps it online much more easily. And because my protagonist is inspired by my oldest daughter and really a combination of all five kids, that I can close my eyes and picture it. And that keeps it online. But other smaller characters... will drift. And that's where I need Patrice's help to say, no, no, no, this, this guy is sounding like this woman. You can't have that happen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
And that's obviously my household is dominated by intelligent, strong, tall women. And so they, that helps me. I can close my eyes and picture those voices well. And then, Again, they'll give me that feedback if I miss it. What is the hardest part for you of the process? Like what's most challenging? Seeing it clearly after I've read it multiple times. You just can't. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
It's like trying to proofread your own work. You miss typos. But trying to ask myself if I got it right, you get to a place where you can't tell and that's where you need help. And I have a circle of, I mentioned my family, I have a circle of friends who read all of my stuff and they're much less loving. So they're looking for things to find that are wrong.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
I need that because I can't see it after a while.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
Yeah, I follow it through the New York Times does regular updates. They have people in the courtroom who send out little updates. So that's my way for following it. She won't talk to me about the case and won't let me go. She will let my wife go and watch. But if I go, quote, it'll be a thing, dad, and so I don't get to go.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
But I follow it online because you can't, it's federal courts, there's no cameras, you're not getting real-time transcripts. So I follow it from the little snippets sent out by reporters. And how's she doing? She's doing great. She's really good and better than I. And her passion has been sex crimes, sex trafficking, working with victims. She has a gift.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
I said, I'd prefer to sit in the front. And so I sat in the front seat and they drove me into their garage. We did the interview, which wasn't long. And then they drove me home.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
And I worry about it because that kind of stuff can really chew you up, but she has a gift. And so I think she's doing very well. The trial in particular, I can't tell. From the outside, you can never know unless you're in the courtroom.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
No, women. He's accused, as I understand it, of sex trafficking women to coerce them into having sex with male prostitutes so he could watch. And then he's accused separately of the crime of supporting, commissioning interstate prostitution. So it's not children. It's grown women who are alleged to have been dominated and coerced by him in the worst possible ways.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
Yeah, I am. I worried when she said she wanted to do it and... That she would go where I worked as a federal prosecutor, as a line prosecutor, where I was the U.S. attorney. And here's the true thing. I worried she would be known as my daughter. Honestly, I am known as her father. I love that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
I'm worried about an economic catastrophe. You have experts who can talk to you about this, but I worry very much about what might happen if the creditworthiness of the United States, which affects the bond markets and people's willingness to buy our debt, collapses. We have not seen that in... Well, we haven't seen it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
And so what we would do then while led by an incompetent in the middle of a crisis like that, I can't even imagine. And so I'm very worried about that. Closer to my career, I worry very much about are we keeping our eye on the ball of the terrorism threat and the counterintelligence threat, which again, we're at the top of the FBI stack for a reason. And
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
There's a real danger that we'll become distracted and lose our focus with catastrophic results.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
Yeah, I don't know what was going on up the chain. And so it's hard for me to say. Look, the guys I dealt with at Secret Service, which has always been the case with them, were total pros. And they were going through their normal interview they do when there's anyone's alleged there's a threat. And I just thought, look, I... There's no conceivable basis for saying this was a threat.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
But if they want to talk to me, I'll talk to them. And that should be the end of it. But I can't speak to it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
Yeah, look, if I were the investigator, I would think of it Is this a credible threat? Is this term 86 something that's been used in movies or books in the past to convey some sense of violence? And if the answer was no, which I believe it is no, I think that would have been the end of it. But I don't know in the Trump administration what kind of pressure the investigators are operating under.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
I appreciated that with me, they acted like professionals. I got to imagine their lives are pretty difficult right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
Oh, yeah. And I want to draw a line under Chris Krebs. I mean, the president issued an executive order saying he should be investigated. So, there's no doubt that the Trump administration is using the investigative power's of the executive branch to target people, to frighten people, to cow people. There's no doubt that that's going on. And that is a real problem.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
I'm just saying, in my case, I can't see what happened up the chain. My interactions with the Secret Service were
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, it's critical when you lead a justice agency, so DOJ or FBI, that both the reality and the perception of your institution be that you're operating without fear or favor. And that when you gather facts, you're not on anybody's team. That is, without that, you're lost. And-
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
That is draining away right now because it's clear they're taking actions based on who's on what team going after the president's enemies. That's poison for confidence in justice institutions and confidence is everything.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
Paint me a scene. Yeah, we went to the coast of North Carolina. We love the Outer Banks and Barrier Islands. for the week before the book rollout. Thought it'd be a great time to get away, think about the next book and what I'm going to say. And we went for a walk on Thursday afternoon. of the week before publication, and we were walking across a big piece of beach.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
that was not my history growing up. And so I don't know what it is, but again, it's, it's been a long time, right? I haven't done an interview in a year. It was last time you and I were together. So look, I, I have so enjoyed being a grandfather and an author and, and T-shirts and jeans. And frankly, after the election in November, I was thinking, I'll just withdraw.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
And so I didn't plan any of this out. But in a way, it's been a useful kick in the pants to me. And that is, you can't withdraw. And I'm a little embarrassed to admit I was trying to withdraw. And the stupid seashell thing, in a way, has said, no, you got to get back out there and speak. And so I think I can talk about the rule of law. I wish I didn't have to, but we all have to right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
Yes, I unequivocally rule that out. Yeah, I think I would come up with a better plan. It's honestly been a bit of a distraction. Not that I mind you talking about the seashells, but I'm supposed to be out here for my publisher talking about the book.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
And as we got towards the end of our walk, we saw in the sand some numbers and spelled that in shells. And my wife said, why would someone put their address in the sand? So we stopped, we both sort of turned our heads sideways and studied it. And I said, you know, I think it's I think it's like a political message of some kind. And she said, oh, yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
They went through a period of trauma. when the appointments are first made and Kash Patel arrived and people were forced out at the same time, really good career people, the people who actually know how to run the FBI were forced out. The head of the FBI's New York office, who was widely admired, was forced out for standing up and saying, basically, we're going to do our jobs the right way.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
So that was a period of trauma for them. I think they've now entered a kind of numb stage where they are I'm not speculating. Folks there have told me this. They're just trying to keep their heads down and do the work and survive this, accomplish the mission, but try to do it in a way that headquarters isn't watching them. or isn't interested in them. That's sort of a big part of the Hoover era.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
People just wanted to do the work and make sure that Hoover didn't see what they were doing, so they didn't get drawn into anything. I think they've entered that phase and hoping that time goes quickly.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
Well, it's hard to categorize 38,000 people in one place. But I think the main feeling is they still love the work. They know how fast three years and whatever we are, six months can go by. And they are planning on staying. They're hoping not to be noticed to do the work. And then there'll be a better time ahead.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
That seems to be, again, the selection bias in those that I talk to, but that seems to be the feeling.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1049: James Comey: Uncomfortably Numb
Yes, it's hard to see from the outside, but I also wonder, so how are they doing that? The Bureau, since 9-11, has had a really sophisticated process to figure out what to work on. It's called the Threat Review and Prioritization Process, TRP, where twice a year we would look across the country and say, so what are the bad things that could happen to America that we could do something about?