Franco Ordoñez
Appearances
The NPR Politics Podcast
How Trump Changed U.S. Policy Toward Ukraine
I mean, Trump's made very clear of his interest in working with Saudi Arabia. All these discussions are likely in anticipation of a summit between Trump and Putin, which, you know, depending on who you talked with, could happen in weeks or months. But what's very, very clear is Trump is saying that such a summit would happen soon.
The NPR Politics Podcast
How Trump Changed U.S. Policy Toward Ukraine
And Saudi Arabia for Trump is a, you know, a likely place considering that. how much of an emphasis Trump has put on working with Saudi Arabia, not only in situations like this, but also economically.
The NPR Politics Podcast
How Trump Changed U.S. Policy Toward Ukraine
Absolutely. This was a campaign promise. I mean, what Trump wants to do is end the war. I think he wants to end it on terms that he sees fit. I mean, Trump is very, very transactional. But at the same time, I think what we're seeing is kind of clear sympathy for Russia and Putin. It was just over this weekend. Trump was speaking about Putin almost admiringly.
The NPR Politics Podcast
How Trump Changed U.S. Policy Toward Ukraine
about Russia being this big machine, about how they defeated Hitler and Napoleon, but that supposedly they wanted to end the fighting. That said, Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky is arguing that Putin is basically pulling the wool over Trump's eyes.
The NPR Politics Podcast
How Trump Changed U.S. Policy Toward Ukraine
And there's a lot of reason for those concerns, because as Zelensky says, and most analysts would say, look, the facts show that if there is a stop in the fighting, it will most likely only be temporary considering the facts over the last 10 years of Russia basically breaking its own agreements and returning to the battlefield, that it's only a temporary stoppage.
The NPR Politics Podcast
How Trump Changed U.S. Policy Toward Ukraine
I got my tree foils, two boxes.
The NPR Politics Podcast
How Trump Changed U.S. Policy Toward Ukraine
But Trump's goal is to stop it now and then see what happens later.
The NPR Politics Podcast
How Trump Changed U.S. Policy Toward Ukraine
And not only not only going back into Ukraine, but also expanding more into other countries, other European nations and even NATO countries. And of course, Trump has also talked about not being there for NATO, possibly even pulling out. So it is only gotten to be a bigger, bigger fear.
The NPR Politics Podcast
How Trump Changed U.S. Policy Toward Ukraine
When I talk to folks about this and whether Ukraine is being excluded, the answer is absolutely yes. But they also see that Ukraine There's only going to be a deal if Russia and the United States can get on the same page. Now, is the United States going to steamroll over Ukraine? Is it going to steamroll over Europe?
The NPR Politics Podcast
How Trump Changed U.S. Policy Toward Ukraine
Eventually, the United States is going to have to bring in Zelensky, going to have to bring in Europe. Zelensky has made very clear that he is not going to take just agree to any kind of deal. But, you know, what kind of deal is this going to shape into and what options does Zelensky actually have? At this point, Russia has already won so much.
The NPR Politics Podcast
How Trump Changed U.S. Policy Toward Ukraine
So many concessions have already been given to Russia. before negotiations have really even starting. And probably most of all is just elevating Putin to be at this big boy table, which is something that the Biden administration tried to kind of isolate him. And now he's back in the spotlight.
The NPR Politics Podcast
How Trump Changed U.S. Policy Toward Ukraine
Yeah. I mean, I was talking with, you know, folks who were there in Munich for that speech and they said there were tears in the room because they felt like, you know, Vance's speech was almost like a funeral for the relationship with Europe. I mean, in regards to like the White House intent, I mean, it's a new ballgame. And I think Greg was talking about this earlier.
The NPR Politics Podcast
How Trump Changed U.S. Policy Toward Ukraine
There's no question that the arena has changed. I would argue that Trump is not isolating the U.S. I would actually probably say it's kind of the opposite. And the people I speak to, it is the opposite, but it is not on the terms that that Europe wants or that Europe has been accustomed to, or even the United States has been accustomed to.
The NPR Politics Podcast
How Trump Changed U.S. Policy Toward Ukraine
It's a new world order, as some say, you know, that does away with all these multinational organizations like the WHO. the Paris Climate Agreement. It does away with working in collaboration with like-minded allies. Instead, as one former diplomat told me, that Trump is clearly now using the tools of his adversaries and looking to kind of build the U.S. sphere of influence much in ways that U.S.
The NPR Politics Podcast
How Trump Changed U.S. Policy Toward Ukraine
adversaries are doing, whether it's China or in the case of our conversation today, Russia.
The NPR Politics Podcast
How Trump Changed U.S. Policy Toward Ukraine
Yeah, I mean, I think there's no question that we are seeing an absolute shifting of that world order that you're saying. And the U.S. is a huge part of it and is in many ways leading that. Trump has clearly not only with what's going on in Ukraine, but if you look at Greenland and talking about potentially using troops to take over Greenland, talking about taking over the Panama Canal,
The NPR Politics Podcast
How Trump Changed U.S. Policy Toward Ukraine
Even discussing Canada as becoming the 51st state. There is no question that Trump is talking about building the U.S. sphere of influence. He told me that it was about making America bigger, stronger and more protected. And again, it's like these are the tools that adversaries are using in Russia, in China. This is not unlike how China deals with Taiwan, how Russia deals with Ukraine.
The NPR Politics Podcast
How Trump Changed U.S. Policy Toward Ukraine
It is very much looking at these relationships in power centers. Who are the powerful countries and respecting them and dealing with them directly versus the traditional way of working kind of in these multinational organizations and working in collaboration with these allies, which. he's really dismissed.
The NPR Politics Podcast
How Trump Changed U.S. Policy Toward Ukraine
I mean, I think those boundaries in some ways are already being drawn. And I think you can see what are the boundaries that Trump sees. It's clearly the Western Hemisphere. And, you know, Greenland clearly is part of North America. The Panama Canal obviously is in the Western Hemisphere and even Canada. Now, I question whether Trump really wants to make Canada the 51st state.
The NPR Politics Podcast
How Trump Changed U.S. Policy Toward Ukraine
That's not going to happen. But clearly he wants to put pressure there for U.S. interests.
The NPR Politics Podcast
How Trump Changed U.S. Policy Toward Ukraine
I'm Frank Ordonez. I cover the White House.