Diana

Hi, my name is Diana and I'm calling from Madrid, Spain. Leadership support for Radiolab's science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, Assignments Foundation Initiatives, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

I could never live in an apartment in a skyscraper. No, it's so scary. I feel like I'm going to fall all the time.

I was in one one time. You could feel it, like, slowly swaying.

It was not like that.

You're not on Quake TikTok?

Crazy.

Man, dude, I can't wait. On another episode, I want to get another DoorDash driver on here, man.

No, no, no.

Okay, well, I'll do it anyway.

I said we have a few million subscribers to this person, and I think she translated it.

So y'all can have that if you want it. No? Nobody want it?

No, you got to land in the tree.

You have to.

If you're ever falling from a plane and you somehow manage to know how to steer yourself.

You know the tornado's going to find you, right?

Hi, it's Stacia. Stacia, I'm sorry. You're totally fine. I've heard it for all 33 years of my life. I bet you have. First and foremost, I am unapologetically fangirling. You guys are some of my favorite hosts and personalities ever in the history of the whole show. Oh, I'm so glad. I'm glad we're here for you today. Oh, absolutely. They keep it 100 all the time. Rachel, you're just the best.

You are kind.

Yes. Yeah, well, just a little context. I have been following the principles of Ramsey since I was 17. I'm 33 now. Wow. Two and a half years away from being a Baby Steps millionaire.

That's amazing. So grateful, like so, so grateful for the principles. I come from a family that does not have money. And so I'm actually calling you today because I don't have anyone else to ask this question. So I am in Baby Steps 6. My husband and I are in Baby Steps 6. We are about eight years away from paying off our house fully.

And I know you all say, I know the principles inside and out, but I know you all say to not purchase a second property until your first property is paid off. And so we're in a predicament where we want to purchase land and then eventually build a small home on that land.

And so we would love to throw like $50,000 at purchasing land, but I'm wondering and how to navigate big purchases while in baby step six. Do we just like stay gung ho for the next eight and a half years with like every extra penny going at the mortgage or like when do we have permission to purchase? save up a good chunk of money and make a big purchase.

And is it okay that that big purchase is toward like one component of a second property?

Well, that's the thing. I'm from Nashville. Rachel, I know you're familiar with East Tennessee. So like we know exactly what part of town outside of Chattanooga or East Tennessee that we would want to purchase. And so if and when the right land came available and we were able to jump on it, I want to be able to jump on it.

And right now a lot of land is going for a lot less because people aren't buying houses, primary houses, and especially not buying secondary property. So land has been cheaper. And so I'm trying to weigh the options of like, do we go ahead and like jump on it?

I'm like, do we throw that at the mortgage? Yes. I'm like, do we throw that at the mortgage and maybe go get the mortgage paid on a year faster? Or do we jump on land?

No. So this would just be a second enjoyable spot. We live in a city. We live, like, right downtown in East Nashville. Okay, got it. So this land would be, like, a little getaway space for us to share with our family and for ourselves, just enjoying for us. Gotcha, yeah. Like, to get out in the country.

Yeah, buy the land. Okay. Mm-hmm. I don't know if hearing permission of because it's associated with a second home, does that have to wait until the mortgage? I don't know. I don't have anyone to ask. How do you wisely go about it?

We're on track. Yeah, we've got about eight and a half years. And my husband gets annual bonuses. And sometimes they're $35. Sometimes they're $50. So what we use is like we just live on the base salary. And then those bonuses can either go to some of the mortgage or they can go to a big purchase. And so... We know that those come every year.

So I'm like, okay, we could add that and that could be extra going towards land, you know, a nicer piece of land or, you know, it's not going to move the needle a ton in how early we pay off the house because we're pretty aggressive about paying it off Monday now. Yeah.

yeah and camp and camp and all of that you would use the lands okay yeah that's great that's what and be flexible also like kind of camp and see where do we want the front of the house where do you want the natural yeah that's fun totally um but i just i i look at you know spots outside of chattanooga and east mississippi all the time and some some are going to auction and people just don't have the extra money and so they are going for a little bit cheaper um and we're we don't need a view we also just kind of want wooded seclusion so

It's just up in the air. I just wanted to get permission, quote unquote, permission to make a large purchase, even if it is associated with a second property.

So basically, I am 48 years I've got no kids. I'm single. I've got my mortgage that I've got about 13K left. Nice. I have, yeah, I have some investments, 38K, but I can't touch until I'm 55, which unfortunately, I mean, well, fortunately, that's right around the corner. But my thing is I haven't been working for a year. I quit my job because I needed a change. My salary is only 55K.

So when I do eventually get a job, You know, it's not very high, but in the year, I've been paying my maintenance and my mortgage on my credit line. So I've accumulated another $10,000 in the last year. But here's the thing. This is not the first time I've been in this situation.

I've quit my job before, and I've been, you know, not wisely paying my mortgage and my maintenance fees on my credit line, but... that's been a little buffer for me and then I'll get a job and I'll, and I'll pay it down.

It is, it is. And you know, that's what we call cash poor, right? Where, you know, I'm not making a lot of money, but I'm smart with my money. You know, I'm not paying to get my nails done and stuff like that. I'm, I'm, you know, putting every cent that I have to that mortgage when I am making money. But here's my main question. I have no kids. And my condo is worth about $700,000, right?

Why am I rushing? Because I only have $13,000 left on this mortgage. Why am I rushing to pay down this mortgage?

Well, I'm looking for a job, but here's the thing here in Toronto, like salaries are very low and I'm being, I'm cherry picking. Let's be honest.

Yeah, I just didn't. I was sick of it. I was working for a company eight years and I was tired of it.

Oh, again, that's why I've accumulated the $10,000.

100%.

So that's what that $10,000 is, right? Oh, all right. I've been paying my mortgage. Yeah, so that's, I mean, that $10,000 accumulated over a year.

Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, and technically it's only $8,000. It's crawling up. I'm rounding up here. How did you get by on $8,000?

You know what, I had a little bit of savings, and I was technically collecting EI for like six months. So let's be honest, that was only 8K is only really six months. I gotcha, I gotcha. So I'm very much the way everything worked out.

So, and here's the thing. I just got back from Jamaica because I was like, look, I know it's not wise, but add another couple of grand on that credit line.

Hold on, hold on. But only because I haven't traveled in seven years. You know what I mean? No, I don't.

It was only two grand. That was only two grand.

Well, eight grand, because let's be honest, that credit card payment is this month. So that'll push me over to the $10,000.

Yes, that's right.

See, and that goes into my next question because my mentality, maybe it's a good thing I'm calling in because I'm like, maybe I should take another year off and just travel. What? And just enjoy my life.

Because let's be honest, I don't want to get another admin customer service position where I'm only making 55K. Okay. You know, the fact that I was able to pay my mortgage and all that stuff.

But you're really just look because I think because I have the cushion because my mortgage.

I have to ask you that.

Hi, I'm doing well. My name is Diana. I'm 29. And I'm wondering how I can get closure from my ex who dropped me in one day.

In 24 hours, it went from I will do anything to be with you. And I am willing to make lots of sacrifices to 24 hours later saying there's no chance in hell I'm going to do any of that.

Not verbatim. There's a lot. There's a lot of context.

We dated for a year and a half.

So I was asking him to convert to Judaism for me.

Yeah. Which is obviously not a small ask, which I know. And it was an ongoing conversation.

He was raised very religious and had a lot of trauma around religion. He was raised Christian and had a negative experience with

The first option. I was raised like relatively traditional, but as I've grown up, I sort of have my own relationship to religion. I don't consider myself religious at all, actually. It's much more of like a cultural thing for me. which, you know, he came around to the holidays. He met my family. He understood sort of my stance on it. It's much more for me.

It's just important that, you know, my future family, our future kids would be raised with a certain level of understanding of their culture, their background, et cetera.

Yeah.

So it was always sort of on the table. And it was the kind of thing where like, I have only ever dated Jewish guys seriously. This is my first time being in a serious relationship with someone who didn't share that. So I was kind of using the time to figure out if it was actually super important to me. And I think he was taking the time to,

consider for himself if it is something he was willing to do it wasn't until december of this of last year where i made the firm sort of like it is a deal breaker for me um kind of after a year ish of what does this process look like i'm just curious I'm honestly not entirely sure. I think it's different depending on like which rabbi you go to.

I think it can be relatively chill a couple months of like once a week doing a course. It depends like how observant, how religious you are, but I would probably opt for like a middle of the road.

Or I don't know, like it's called conservative, like not orthodox, but I know a bunch of people who have converted and it's just like a couple months of...

Right. And I think something like that is available, but I do want there to be a little bit of, you know, interest on my partner's end.

Yeah, just understand the importance of, yeah, the stories, the history of, you know, it's a rough history. Like just understand, have that context and like be kind of knowledgeable enough to understand Do you know what the holidays are when they happen?

First question, yes. I think he did empathize with the plight of what it is to be a Jewish person and some of the everyday struggles and difficulties and challenges that we have to face. With the holiday part, I definitely got the vibe that he was coming to these things with my family for me. There wasn't a lot of curiosity or willingness to...

be like let me see what this is all about it was very much just like we're going to this dinner tonight and i am participating but there wasn't really any questions any curiosity um it was just like an obligation listen i i when it it's i think it's just a very interesting you can't make someone believe 100 right so if we understand that then you have to like really

I know, it's a good one.

I can give a bit more context as to like what I told him as to why it would be important for me.

It's, it's very nuanced and I don't think he ever fully like wrapped his head around it. But what I, what I sort of told him was that like, I would be willing to like, if he were to convert,

It would signify to me that even if we do have differences in opinion about how we want to raise a family and how we want to be a Jewish couple, Jewish family, even if we did experience differences about that, him converting to me tells me that we are a team and that we are both willing to sacrifice.

things together and like carve our own path as a like unique sort of jewish couple are you guys engaged converting were you engaged no okay no we were not gotcha we talked about it though like we kind of had our just out of curiosity the next couple years planned out i'm totally on board with and just out of curiosity but when you talked about this what was the timeline in which you needed this like now like an answer his willingness to convert

Well, I kind of told him, and this is I didn't need him to convert right away. It's more like if we were to get married, that would be a step that he would have to take. But in terms of like, I need an answer when, I mean, I'm turning 30 this year and I was like, I don't really want to be like turn 30 in a relationship I'm unsure about.

Yes. I mean, we definitely talked about marriage. We like the relationship was very serious. Yeah.

I know I should have known from the jump, but it was a very strong relationship. So I know you say don't rely on hope, but I was like, and there were signs over the year and a half that he was like kind of down. So it was very much just hanging on to those.

I guess the summary is kind of what I said before. I always have known that I wanted a Jewish partner. I've only ever been in serious relationships with Jewish partners. I love this man so much that there were certain things that I know I was willing to bend on. For example, Christmas, like, I went to his family's and had a great time.

And I think there is a way that we could have made that work for our future family. But again, what I told him was like him converting is signifying to me that like we are a team. We are this unique Jewish couple that together will make decisions that we both agree on versus if we ended up together and he didn't convert. I feel like we would kind of always just be at odds.

And that's kind of how I pitched it.

No, it wasn't that because I never really doubted that.

We were very serious. Like I knew that he envisioned marriage with me.

I'm just saying... We talked about our future. We talked about our kids. We talked about all that.

Maybe I'm not understanding the question properly.

We watched it together. Nobody wants this.

We watched it together. It was like low-key kind of awkward.

Well, I can tell you what changed. It was a fight about something else, which is part of the complexity of the story.

So we had a conversation about conversion maybe a week prior to this fight. He sort of expressed some concerns. We had a long chat about it. I explained to him, like he asked a few questions, I explained to him, and then... We left that chat. I left that chat feeling great. Like his mind sort of shifted. I think he had a perception about what it would be like.

And I was able to kind of explain to him that that wouldn't be the case. So I kind of like eased his mind in a few ways about what that process would be like. And we left that chat feeling great. At the same time, and I'm going to try to keep it short because it's a long story, but I...

was going for a job that i was recruited for okay i had done two calls with the recruiter and my meeting with the team was scheduled for later that week on the day that i think it was on the day that i went in for that interview they also reached out to him my ex we work in the same field We met at work. We were coworkers.

It was like a- So now you're competing for the same- Coworkers somewhere else.

So I had already interviewed and he was cheering me on. He was saying, call me in the morning. We can go over some questions. You're a shoo-in for this job. You're going to kill it. Then they reached out to him and he told me he wanted to go for it. I expressed to him that that would hurt my feelings. but ultimately I was like, I can't stop you from going for this job.

I ultimately want success for you because like, if he gets a good job with a big, nice salary increase, I, I also benefit from that. Right.

Hopefully. So I said to him, I don't know. You were very much supporting me. You told me I was a shoo-in. It just feels a little bit icky to me that you would say these things and help me prep for the interview and help me pick out my outfit.

It was, it was kind of tough. Like some of the people that I asked, some of my friends were like, may the best man win. Other people were like, your man should be your biggest cheerleader and supporter. And if he's cheering you on for a role, you shouldn't go for it.

Yeah. And it is something that I kind of did struggle with. And that's sort of why I, there was not one time never that I said, do not go for it. I said, you can like a hundred percent. I mean, you fought about it. So clearly I said, if you want to go for it, go for it. Just know that it does. It upsets me. I feel a little bit weird about it.

It's not sitting 100% right with me, but ultimately, if this is a choice that you want to make, you can make that choice.

Yes, for sure.

I guess. I just didn't know another way to, I think he just, yeah, to your point.

Yeah. Yes, I did. And there were times that I was like, look, I don't know why I'm feeling this triggered by it, or I don't know why it's upsetting me this much.

Yes.

So it was a few days of kind of back and forth. At first he was like, no, you know, I don't think I should go for it. Like they came to you first. And then the next day he was like, Ooh, you know, they keep asking me for a call. And he was really involving me in, in his decision. Okay. And at a certain point, I remember he was off.

He was off work for a few days and I was at work and he was texting me these paragraphs about it. And I was busy. And kind of at this point, it had been days of this ongoing chat. So the text literally say, like, if you would 100 percent take this job, if you got it, you should go for it. I will not stand in your way of going for this job. I was texting him these things.

And over and over again, he was like, again, I don't think our ego should be in the way here. We should let them decide. He was, I think, trying to justify it.

Well, this was after multiple conversations. But yes, we were texting because I was busy at work and he wanted to talk about it.

This was a conversation, but you know, the tone was like, he was sending me paragraphs and I was busy. So I think my answers were a little bit short, but it like, I can read them to you. It's literally, my responses are, then you should go for it. Like, I will not stand in your way here.

Kinda.

Yeah. It was, it was a heated convo.

Yeah, it's just like such a unique dynamic for two people in a relationship to have to navigate.

No. So what happened was after work, I called him. We talked about it some more. He kept trying to justify why he wants to go for it. And I, at this point, and we were on the phone, I was driving home and I was like, we're beating a dead horse. I don't know what else to say. You know, my stance. I think you should go for it. I think you want to go for it.

And I, if that is the case, you should go for it. Knowing that it hurts my feelings.

Jim and Pam.

I just don't see it that way. But I hear you. My perspective was more like, we're not married. We're just dating. I don't know if this is going to work out. You told me last week that you were feeling iffy about converting. So I need to be selfish here.

But that's, I didn't tell him to pass. I told him that he can make his own decision about it.

Yeah. Like I, I don't really know what the right.

I did like a month before him.

I think it does matter. Maybe this is just me. Like I'm, yeah, I feel like it does matter.

Yeah. Like I'm not going to step aside.

Yeah. Yeah, I keep kind of just thinking like, and you're probably going to be like, that's so dumb. But had they reached out to us all this at the same time, and there wasn't that element of my man calling me a shoo-in for the job and whatever.

hyping me up like I think that was just a hard pill for me to swallow was like how can you call me a shoe and say I'm the perfect candidate and turn around and say actually I also think that I am the perfect candidate like had they reached out to us in the same week same day whatever my opinion would be a thousand percent different I mean I believe that but I don't stupid but

I mean, I do think I'm right. I also did communicate. I was like, I can't tell you why I'm like, I acknowledge the fact that it is unfair.

Perhaps a little.

That was also part of it. He's very charming and speaks very well.

I know. No, I know. There was a part of me.

Perhaps I did. I remember after my interview, my first interview in person, I called him after and I was like, I was also sort of flip-flopping. Like it wasn't hard, fast. Like it wasn't only like, I don't feel like you should go for it. Or I feel weird about you going for it.

Like, I remember I called him right after the interview and I said, look, I actually feel like you could be really great for this role. Like, like after talking to the team, I actually called him and I was like, I don't want to stand in your way. Like I, after talking to them, I actually think that you could be great. So like continue. What made you do that?

I think it's obviously a very complex situation. I was going back and forth about it just like he was. So I think just after talking to them and knowing where he excels and where I excel, there were a lot of instances in that interview where I was like, he would actually be able to do this really well.

was very calmly and honestly communicating to him how it made me feel like that. You wanted your feelings to help you get your way. I was like, this is very complex. I don't know how to navigate this. I don't know what the right answer is. What I know about this situation is that you want the job. It would hurt me and I feel weird about it, but ultimately you can go for it if you would like to.

I know, but that was my version of what you're saying, to address that it's a complex situation.

I don't see it that way.

Fair. That's probably how he took it, yes.

And I'm going to feel like it's going to destroy me. That's probably how he heard it. It's really going to, you know, that's not my fault.

I suppose just, yeah, I guess my, To me, I was doing the right thing by communicating that. But now I understand what you're saying. But yeah, I guess at the time, I was like, I am a communicative girlfriend. I'm going to tell him how that would make me feel. That was my... It wasn't malicious. It was literally me being like, I talk about communication.

It's important for me to tell my partner how I feel. And I'm going to tell him how I feel. I also like, as I said, it was back and forth for a few days. Like at the beginning, he was like, you know, I'm not going to go for it. I want to hit two years at my job.

No, but that was never in question because I had already started interviewing before he did.

You never asked me to do that because I was already in the process. Like you wouldn't ask me to.

Yeah, that's, that's fair.

Yeah.

And that's how I felt. I can't help but feel that way. No, you can't. And I was already... No, you can't. I was already interviewing.

Yeah, I don't think I felt more entitled to my feelings. I just felt more entitled to the job.

So this was all happening at the same time. Essentially, yeah, after work, one day we were on the phone. He called me to talk about the job more. I said, it sounds like you're going to go for it. I have really nothing else to say about it. You know my stance. Go for it. Let's change the subject now. And then he told me on that phone call, he was like, also, I called my dad today.

We had a really nice, good chat about me converting. And he really came around. And I told my dad that I would rather do this and be with you than wonder what if for the rest of my life. And I was like, that's great. I'm glad that chat worked. went really well. I can't quite remember. It was like two months ago now.

I can't quite remember how the conversation spiraled, but he started to bring up all of these different things that I had done in the past that he feels taken advantage of. He said, how am I supposed to convert if you won't let me go for this job? How am I supposed to think that you will ever be able to make a sacrifice for me? And I'm like, these are all fair points.

But some of the examples that he gave me were just like, so out of left field.

Definitely. And that was kind of an ongoing issue. When was the last time you spoke to this guy?

That day.

Other than me texting him, I returned his stuff a couple weeks ago. Essentially, I'll give you a very fast how the relationship ended after that. He basically had all these realizations during this fight.

um about the relationship then we had a conversation where i basically begged him not to end it with me and i was like i will change i will change i will like do anything yes i was like go for the job please like this is when i was like fight or flight i was like i have to do everything to save this he was totally shut down And then I had to go to work. He said, can you come over later?

Like, I want to get some things off my chest. I don't want to make a rash decision about the relationship. I love you. And I just feel like there are things that I've been holding onto that I need to talk to you about. And I was like, sounds good. I went over that night and he had my stuff in a pile and he was like, I don't want to convert. And that was basically it. It was very, it was very like,

Yeah, you're probably right. You know, heat of the moment, it's hard to like take a step back, especially when this fight was just like it. I wanted it to be a conversation and it became like a very heated fight. So it's hard to take a step back and like objectively see it from a bird's eye view. And I also didn't expect it to be the end of the relationship.

No. And I, and I acknowledge to him, like, and.

If he listened to it. yeah and he knew you know i know we give a fake name and things like that and i mean he would definitely know it's a very very niche i imagine but like if he did i wonder how he would feel about what was being discussed and yeah um i i did acknowledge to him too like sort of as things were falling apart i was like i i really am now able to sort of see your perspective.

And I feel like there have been times that I have taken advantage of you in the sense that he did a lot for me. Like I asked a lot and he, he was a wonderful boyfriend.

Exactly. became a big deal because like i give in to fucking everything yeah i think you're right about that i think this fight kind of yeah opened up that can of worms and I think what was, I will do this for her because I love her, became, oh my God, how am I doing all of this? And she can't let me do this.

You're right about that.

I guess just with, yeah, the conversion thing, it's not something I'm willing to budge on.

that like you just decided are important to you even though like you don't even really give a shit in your day-to-day life i don't necessarily think that was the case like i i did want to make it as easy as possible and i was i was even yeah there were we talked about a lot of things that i was willing to do if and when he did convert he he didn't really ask very many questions about what the process would be like so i didn't want to push that onto him i didn't want to i wanted him to also like

Ask me about it and be curious. It's a really uncomfortable thing to bring up to a partner. I get that. Probably pretty closed off to it. Right.

Yeah.

And I, That conversation also did happen. I was like, that conversation also did happen. And at one point, kind of as a joke, I was like, well, if you don't like it, like there is divorce down the line. It's a possibility. I guess my point is, I don't want to get divorced.

No, it wasn't him wanting to do it. It was just, you know, it's, it's such a sensitive conversation that I. But I guess what I'm saying, it's such a big ask.

A hundred percent. A thousand percent.

And if that, it's just like- Yeah, I was really happy about that.

and then you react to converting.

That wasn't really his style to be like our communication. Yeah. That was kind of how our big conversations were like that. It was very, because I think like, He wasn't the best at, like, having very emotional conversations. It took a lot out of him. So when we did kind of have to sit and talk about something serious, it was like, we are scheduling this time to have this chat about this thing.

It wasn't a super, like, casual thing that was just brought up. He told me he was like, we should talk about this. Let's do it on this day. And that was the time that we were going to address it.

It's been really hard. Like... It's been pretty hard for me, but I would say in the last like few weeks.

Again, like I would, the only way I would be willing to get back together is if he would convert. I hear that, but I'm just like- And I don't think that's on the table.

It was on the table.

When he ended it, he said, I've actually had a gut feeling this whole time that I didn't want to.

Anyway, he wants to meet for closure in two weeks.

Great question. He asked me for closure. And that is the real reason I called.

100%.

That's basically what he said. And I said, you're right.

I think I hear you and I definitely think it's something that I now have learned about myself. I think it also kind of just happened this way because he had a hard time communicating. So it's hard to be there for somebody.

It's just how the dynamics sort of, I guess, evolved with this guy who wasn't great at communicating and did a lot for me.

naturally like that's sort of just how the dynamic of the relationship evolved over time did you guys ever do couples therapy we did not um we we talked about it like he would definitely be open to it really i mean what you are describing as a pretty good thing with two people two people who aren't great communicators perhaps that's what i'm hearing yeah

I know. I don't really believe in closure.

Definitely not. No, if, if I do go, it's, it's not to like hammer down this point at all.

I promise you I will. It's more just to, to, it's more of a curiosity for me. Like, I just want to know what he has to say.

For one, I just like miss him a lot. We were friends for a year before we started dating.

I know. I just, I, what am I curious about? I think it would be good just to hear about, you know, How he kind of absorbed everything. Yeah, justifies what he did. Not necessarily an apology. Yeah, I know. That's why I'm like, maybe I shouldn't go. But slightly toxic side of me is like, oh, I would like to see him. I'm definitely not going in with my armor up.

I'm going in with my white flag waving.

Yeah, thank you. I'm excited to listen to it back. Maybe I'll learn something.

It is a really sad story.

I mean, it's not really up to me. I could go in and be like, please. And he'll be like, no.

Yeah, I will. All right. Sounds good. Take care. Tough love.

Good story. I'm glad you enjoyed it. See ya.