David Graham
Appearances
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
And I didn't help out this guy who insulted my wife repeatedly, although I did endorse him for president.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
And you know, I really think it might be the third option that it's just Trump having the balls to say no, because I mean, I was surprised by how much Dems were able to make it a campaign issue. Like this is a 900 page PDF full of a bunch of really technical stuff. And these things get put out by Heritage and other think tanks every four years. And they usually make no splash at all.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
And, you know, these are coming up at the BET Awards. And you have the Dems brandishing that oversized book at the DNC. Like, they really injected it into the conversation. I mean, do you remember why?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I mean, I live in a blue bubble, but I was driving around and seeing signs in people's yards that said, Stop Project 2025. And that's a sign of how weakly people were attached to the candidates, but it's also surprising penetration for something like this.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Oh, for sure.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I mean, I think one thing just in terms of how it's being implemented, Elon has sort of thrown a wrench into a lot of these things. And what they describe in Project 25 is really methodical, like how we're going to do this, how we're going to go through these steps. And a lot of these things he seems to sort of have hijacked and done his own way. So I think...
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
We haven't really felt a lot of the real Project 2025 stuff because Russ Vogt has just gotten in. They're just starting to push on these things, and they attempted this fending freeze, and it obviously got initially slapped down, but they clearly want to try this again.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Just this week, they put out an executive order about independent agencies, which is part of a general attempt to overturn a 1930s precedent that says that independent agencies exist. I think these things are still in action.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
The process.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Exactly, yeah. The people who wrote Project 2025 are, whatever else you think of them, pretty serious people who've thought a lot about government and how it should work. And what you see from Elon is he has no idea how government works.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
But I think that, like, the gender stuff is maybe the thing that jumps out most. I mean, I think that is, as much as people talked about abortion in Project 2025 during the campaign, The stuff about gender roles and family structure and there being two sexes are things that I don't think you can overstate how much that is in there. And, you know, just this week we see RFK issuing an order on this.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
We've seen tons of other examples already too.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
They don't want it. Their plan is to get rid of it. Okay. It's a weird situation because you have had conservatives arguing for abolishing the Department of Education for decades now. But it's a problem because there's also millions of dollars that states depend on, and you can't just get rid of that. And so Project 2025's answer is you should block grant all of this stuff to states.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
The federal government should still spend lots of money to just send it to states with no strings attached as long as it's – follows state law, they can do what they want.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Yes, I'm intrigued by the idea. I'm intrigued by what he would be doing differently if this is true. I mean, I think that's a good question. That's a useful question to ask outside of conspiracy theories.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
So I think, you know, what you can imagine is you would have red states with much more religious schools and you'd have a different sort of curriculum in different blue states pushing money into public schooling with, you know, probably similar to what they have now.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Yeah, I think I'm curious to see how those sort of tensions play out and whether the real goal is just to cut the funds in whatever way possible or if it is, in fact, to sort of, you know, push a more conservative project. And that's like that's the vote versus Musk tension that I think we're going to see popping out in other places as well.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I think that's true to a point. And the point where I think it gets dangerous is, or gets risky for vote rather, is some of the things that Elon's doing are just so clearly illegal and unconstitutional that they're going to get rolled back. And something they say a lot in Project 2025 is we have one shot at this. We have to get this right.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
We have to get it right in the first two years or else we will get rolled back. And so by coming in and doing these things and getting all of the, he's going to get results, Musk is going to get results, but he's also going to get rolled back on some things. And I think that's going to cause problems for actually getting things done through the legal process.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I mean, these cuts, many of these things are going to be unpopular. You know, no one wants to see national parks closed and so on and so forth. And so you've got to get it done before the backlash.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I think one thing that we haven't talked about as much because people are talking about civil servants is how much of it is focused on, in fact, getting the right political appointees. You know, there's just a real fury from Russ Vogt and Paul Danz about how bad the political appointees were from their perspective in the first Trump administration. Hmm.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
And you're going to get these people in eventually, but they're going to be overseeing departments that are cleared out. They're not going to be able to get the things done that they want to. And so I think that's a tension.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I think some more of those people exist now than did eight years ago. They've really worked hard on training them. And they're not going to be people we hear about. They're not going to be babies. They're going to be folks who are at lower levels, but are still political appointees. You And I think that's where you could potentially make a difference, but I'm not sure it's going to work in time.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
And I'm not sure what they're going to be left with when Elon's finished.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
What say you? I think you're right about the sort of structural landscape, but I... And you're right, you don't know what's going to set it off. But I think what I have a hard time imagining is what the organizing principle is, and the real organizing principle, maybe more than the sort of superficial one.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Like, insofar as the Tea Party was about hating Obama, the Dems have kind of tried hating Trump. And it worked okay in 2020. And it worked really poorly in 2024. So I don't know what their next move is, or how you sort of package that in a way that's going to excite people differently.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Yeah. I saw Charlie Kirk tweeting about the Hannity interview saying, isn't this exciting? The world's most powerful man and the world's richest man are really just great friends and they're in charge. And I thought, if I was a Democrat, I would be broadcasting that everywhere I can. Because I think that's a scary idea for anybody who believes in limited government.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
It's a scary idea for anyone who is really populist. It puts the lie to a lot of the things they said. That's a message right there. But I don't see... Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries really jumping on that very effectively. I don't either. The king.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
That's right. It's a tough position. I think a minority leader is not a great spot to do that. But Pelosi was really good at channeling rage, even as she's not an inspiring speaker. Even as she doesn't have any clear political program, she was able to sort of become a focal point for that.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Because it's like methadone. I can't quite get rid of the Twitter thing, but I don't know. There's a little bit of the sort of fun, low-key atmosphere you had in, I don't know, circa 2009, 2010 Twitter, but I'm sure that'll go away.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I don't know any French and it's so totally like hack work, but it felt like, now that I'm writing this newsletter, I was trying to translate newsletter to French. So I hope no one speaks French here. Oh, it's a French, so it's not like an homage. No. It's not like an homage. Well, they're bell lettrists and I definitely don't write pretty letters. I just write new letters.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I do love The Tryout, actually. You're setting me up there, but it's true. No, I don't. I mean, I think that the best writers are writing the best stuff, and it doesn't really matter what the format is. And so I'm still feeling it out. And it's really fun to have this direct relationship with people. But I haven't cracked it yet, I think. Well, I've been enjoying it.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I mean, this is one of these things that feels like it shouldn't be surprising, but it still is. The dictator thing is something that is floating around, the idea that Ukraine is the aggressor. We know he doesn't pay attention to any of the facts and he doesn't remember any of the history, but it's a wild thing to say.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
And I feel like we got so sick of talking about the question of a big lie and if you tell people something enough times, blah, blah, blah. But that's what's going on here. We all know who the aggressor was in this case. It was very clear. And Trump is going for the, I'm just going to tell you a really brazen lie and see if I can get away with it strategy, I guess.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Yeah. Trump also has this weird habit of, I just think he, even at this stage, seems, and even as he loves the trappings of the presidency and wants to name himself king, seems to often misunderstand how powerful his words are themselves outside of actions. He's out saying that Russia holds all the cards in this negotiation. That's a self-fulfilling statement.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Russia only holds all the cards because you are saying they hold the cards. He just says these things and fires them off. It changes the board and it changes the lives of people in Ukraine without him really thinking very hard about what he's saying.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I mean, like in 2017, when people said that, I kind of rolled my eyes and I was right. But now it's just totally wild to believe that there is some sort of deeper strategy going on here. Talk about Marco Rubio as a sleeper agent. He's playing a really long game with Putin, if that's what he's doing.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Well, I mean, I was driving in my car shouting at the radio. NPR had a story where they were talking to Venezuelan American voters who were upset that Trump is terminating temporary protected status for Venezuelan refugees in the US. This is something he talked about doing. There are people upset about a lot of immigration things.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Right. I was going to say, these are things he's been talking about for literally decades, not just in his political career, but since the 80s. He's wanted tariffs and he's wanted to cut immigration. It's so clear.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Well, I mean, I think my favorite just for the outlandishness is the Arab Americans for Trump. Oh, you have now changed their name to Arab Americans for peace. But this is a guy who was out using Palestinian as an insult, as a pejorative on the campaign trail. And they're surprised that he's very friendly to the Israeli government and that he wants to clear Palestinians out of Gaza.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
None of these things should come as any kind of surprise.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Like it's a racial slur.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Yeah. Tillis has this habit. He's interesting because he dances right up to the line over and over again on things with Trump. I can't tell whether it's brilliant or really foolish. It seems to me like he risks alienating all of the Trump supporters without getting anything from it because he then never actually follows through.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
He shows himself pretty easily bullied, but he keeps flirting with the idea that he's going to defy Trump. I don't know what the thinking is there. Maybe there isn't a thinking. Maybe he's just sort of blundering through it, or maybe he's trying to strike some sort of moderate pose. I'm not sure.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Like my uncle Lindsey Graham said, you know, if you're not in this business to get reelected, you're in the wrong business. And that's clearly the attitude that so many of them have versus some sort of public service attitude.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I think that's right. I really expected there would be at least one of these folks would go down. We lost Gates right from the start, but I thought that they were going to demand something. And I'm, again, I probably shouldn't be surprised, but I'm surprised that not one of these candidates has attracted more serious opposition. Except for Mitch. McConnell's out there. He's doing it.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
What do you make of that? It's very strange to see somebody who is in charge of keeping Republican votes together being the one guy defying it. I mean, you know, you said Tillis doesn't want to retire yet. So he has these expressions of dismay, you know, and McConnell's clearly in DGAF territory. And I think he doesn't like Trump. He doesn't like these nominees.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Well, you know, we had that situation a few years ago where there was a foreign service agent who was a long running Cuban sleeper cell. So we know this is the sort of thing they do. I think you get this going.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
And he sees no real downside to voting against them.