David E. Sanger

And much as in this most recent hack, they were inside the Office of Personnel Management for a year before anyone even knew that they were stealing the files, encrypting them, and broadcasting them back to Beijing.

And much as in this most recent hack, they were inside the Office of Personnel Management for a year before anyone even knew that they were stealing the files, encrypting them, and broadcasting them back to Beijing.

Well, this is the great mystery that the CIA's new or relatively new China operation is constantly trying to figure out, that the NSA is trying to figure out. So there are a couple of theories. The first theory is they just want a complete map of everybody in the U.S. who works in the national security sphere and access to what they do. So it's, first of all, for great intelligence gathering.

Well, this is the great mystery that the CIA's new or relatively new China operation is constantly trying to figure out, that the NSA is trying to figure out. So there are a couple of theories. The first theory is they just want a complete map of everybody in the U.S. who works in the national security sphere and access to what they do. So it's, first of all, for great intelligence gathering.

The second thing they're beginning to do, though, is learn how to plant their malware into critical infrastructure in the United States that may enable them to turn off water pipelines or electric grids if they got into a direct conflict with the US. And we really saw this last year, 2023, with the Chinese hacking group named Volt Typhoon.

The second thing they're beginning to do, though, is learn how to plant their malware into critical infrastructure in the United States that may enable them to turn off water pipelines or electric grids if they got into a direct conflict with the US. And we really saw this last year, 2023, with the Chinese hacking group named Volt Typhoon.

It's a different group than the group that was just caught inside the telecom system. But their purpose was to be able to get into the utilities that feed American bases in Guam.

It's a different group than the group that was just caught inside the telecom system. But their purpose was to be able to get into the utilities that feed American bases in Guam.

in Hawaii, on the West Coast, so that if there was ever a incident over Taiwan, say a Chinese invasion or just a slow choking off of Taiwan, that the Chinese could use the code they've put in these systems to turn off the power or turn off the water and slow an American response, an ability to get troops to Taiwan. And that's critically important.

in Hawaii, on the West Coast, so that if there was ever a incident over Taiwan, say a Chinese invasion or just a slow choking off of Taiwan, that the Chinese could use the code they've put in these systems to turn off the power or turn off the water and slow an American response, an ability to get troops to Taiwan. And that's critically important.

It's also got a psychological element, which is if there was a crisis in Taiwan and suddenly you were living in San Francisco and there was no water coming out of the tap, you're not thinking about Taiwan.

It's also got a psychological element, which is if there was a crisis in Taiwan and suddenly you were living in San Francisco and there was no water coming out of the tap, you're not thinking about Taiwan.

You're thinking about how you get water coming out of your tap for your family.

You're thinking about how you get water coming out of your tap for your family.

That's absolutely right. And the U.S. discovered this midway through the Biden administration. And through 2023, there were all these kinds of emergency meetings in the Situation Room, and they brought in the heads of the utilities, and they're trying to go clean out the Chinese malware. But the fact of the matter is, Sabrina, you just don't know what you don't know.

That's absolutely right. And the U.S. discovered this midway through the Biden administration. And through 2023, there were all these kinds of emergency meetings in the Situation Room, and they brought in the heads of the utilities, and they're trying to go clean out the Chinese malware. But the fact of the matter is, Sabrina, you just don't know what you don't know.

And the Chinese are excellent at creating an access into a system, testing out whether it could work, and then pulling all the code out so that when somebody came looking for it, they may not find anything other than a little bit of evidence that Chinese hackers had been there.

And the Chinese are excellent at creating an access into a system, testing out whether it could work, and then pulling all the code out so that when somebody came looking for it, they may not find anything other than a little bit of evidence that Chinese hackers had been there.

That's right. And so I think to understand what has everybody so worried right now, you have to sort of back up enough to look at these two different kind of operations.

That's right. And so I think to understand what has everybody so worried right now, you have to sort of back up enough to look at these two different kind of operations.