David E. Sanger

They were pretty clunky. They put most of their cyber capability into the hands of the People's Liberation Army. It's China's main military operation. You know, 10 years ago, I was writing about People's Liberation Army Unit, Unit 61398, that was based out of a big white office tower near the Shanghai airport.

They were pretty clunky. They put most of their cyber capability into the hands of the People's Liberation Army. It's China's main military operation. You know, 10 years ago, I was writing about People's Liberation Army Unit, Unit 61398, that was based out of a big white office tower near the Shanghai airport.

And they had officers who would go break into American companies and try to steal their secrets and their designs and bring them back to Chinese state-owned or other companies. And were they successful at doing that? Partly. They stole the design for the F-35, the U.S. stealth fighter, and then produced one that looks very much like it, but they make it a lot more cheaply than we do.

And they had officers who would go break into American companies and try to steal their secrets and their designs and bring them back to Chinese state-owned or other companies. And were they successful at doing that? Partly. They stole the design for the F-35, the U.S. stealth fighter, and then produced one that looks very much like it, but they make it a lot more cheaply than we do.

But along the way, Sabrina, they got caught pretty easily. A company called Mandiant found them breaking into U.S. companies and were able to identify the specific hackers who later got indicted by the United States. There were wanted posters with these hackers' pictures on them, even though they were PLA officers. So like Keystone Cops kind of thing?

But along the way, Sabrina, they got caught pretty easily. A company called Mandiant found them breaking into U.S. companies and were able to identify the specific hackers who later got indicted by the United States. There were wanted posters with these hackers' pictures on them, even though they were PLA officers. So like Keystone Cops kind of thing?

Better than Keystone Cops, but not the best picture. cat burglars you ever met. So they started working hard on being stealthy, on hiding their tracks. They began to study how the American systems work in great detail. And then they did something even smarter. They moved a lot of this hacking out of the hands of the army and handed it to the Ministry of State Security.

Better than Keystone Cops, but not the best picture. cat burglars you ever met. So they started working hard on being stealthy, on hiding their tracks. They began to study how the American systems work in great detail. And then they did something even smarter. They moved a lot of this hacking out of the hands of the army and handed it to the Ministry of State Security.

It means that they're going to a group that has more money to invest on intelligence assets that are trained at a higher level, that have the ability, because they're working in secret, to go out and hire and train much more effective hackers who would not be caught as easily. And they learned many more innovative ways to get into American, European, African, Latin American systems.

It means that they're going to a group that has more money to invest on intelligence assets that are trained at a higher level, that have the ability, because they're working in secret, to go out and hire and train much more effective hackers who would not be caught as easily. And they learned many more innovative ways to get into American, European, African, Latin American systems.

They began to sell telecommunications equipment, as we were discussing earlier, that would enable them to own the infrastructure and therefore get in. And they learned how to be much more effective at stealing master passwords so that they didn't have to actually write code and malware, but instead could pretend like they were legitimate operators inside a system.

They began to sell telecommunications equipment, as we were discussing earlier, that would enable them to own the infrastructure and therefore get in. And they learned how to be much more effective at stealing master passwords so that they didn't have to actually write code and malware, but instead could pretend like they were legitimate operators inside a system.

...was when they got into the Office of Personnel Management at the end of the Obama administration.

...was when they got into the Office of Personnel Management at the end of the Obama administration.

Now, this is seemingly the most boring bureaucracy in Washington, right? They are basically the government's HR manager. And they keep the security clearance files for 22 million Americans who have secret, top-secret, compartmentalized clearances and so forth.

Now, this is seemingly the most boring bureaucracy in Washington, right? They are basically the government's HR manager. And they keep the security clearance files for 22 million Americans who have secret, top-secret, compartmentalized clearances and so forth.

And the Americans who get clearances have to fill out these enormously detailed forms that describe their financial condition, their medical histories, every relationship they've been in. every foreigner they've ever met and had long interactions with. So this is not just your name and your social security number. This is the details of your life.

And the Americans who get clearances have to fill out these enormously detailed forms that describe their financial condition, their medical histories, every relationship they've been in. every foreigner they've ever met and had long interactions with. So this is not just your name and your social security number. This is the details of your life.

And obviously, for Chinese intelligence officials, if they could get that kind of understanding of the American elite who are working on every classified project, it's enormously beneficial.

And obviously, for Chinese intelligence officials, if they could get that kind of understanding of the American elite who are working on every classified project, it's enormously beneficial.