Dan Jones

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.

I ain't saying you treated me unkind. You could have done better, but I don't mind. You just kind of wasted my precious time. Don't think twice, it's all right.

I ain't saying you treated me unkind. You could have done better, but I don't mind. You just kind of wasted my precious time. Don't think twice, it's all right.

We know a lot of information. about the rack panelling in the Harlequin. There's complexities around the plant and equipment in which some of that rack supports the roof covering also the atrium as well. The issue partly is because it's very difficult to inspect every single panel given the size and nature of the building.

We know a lot of information. about the rack panelling in the Harlequin. There's complexities around the plant and equipment in which some of that rack supports the roof covering also the atrium as well. The issue partly is because it's very difficult to inspect every single panel given the size and nature of the building.

And secondly, obviously the complexities around the ownership and responsibilities and that's what we're working towards at the moment is securing that intrusive survey, which will take us to the next level. But it's not that we don't know the extent of the rack or the extent of the issue. It's defining that with the actual head leaseholder.

And secondly, obviously the complexities around the ownership and responsibilities and that's what we're working towards at the moment is securing that intrusive survey, which will take us to the next level. But it's not that we don't know the extent of the rack or the extent of the issue. It's defining that with the actual head leaseholder.

And he's slapped down very, very heavily and very, very hard by his father. who leads him to believe that he's made such a grievous error that he's now, he may have forfeited his right to become king. And Henry the fourth starts like shifting his attention, his favor towards his second son, Thomas, uh, makes him Duke of Clarence.

And he's slapped down very, very heavily and very, very hard by his father. who leads him to believe that he's made such a grievous error that he's now, he may have forfeited his right to become king. And Henry the fourth starts like shifting his attention, his favor towards his second son, Thomas, uh, makes him Duke of Clarence.

And I don't think he's totally serious, but he lets Henry believe he's totally serious. And it's a, it's a, it's a valuable lesson. Um, In 1413, Henry IV eventually dies in the Jerusalem Chamber in the Palace of Westminster. And at that point, it's clear that this was never a serious proposition that Thomas, the second son, was going to take over the throne.

And I don't think he's totally serious, but he lets Henry believe he's totally serious. And it's a, it's a, it's a valuable lesson. Um, In 1413, Henry IV eventually dies in the Jerusalem Chamber in the Palace of Westminster. And at that point, it's clear that this was never a serious proposition that Thomas, the second son, was going to take over the throne.

Henry, Prince of Wales, becomes Henry V. And from that point on, things start to get a bit easier because, as his aging father had rightly perceived, it was absolutely vital that Prince Henry became King Henry with an orderly transition of power, with a legitimate death of one king, proclamation of his eldest son, coronation.

Henry, Prince of Wales, becomes Henry V. And from that point on, things start to get a bit easier because, as his aging father had rightly perceived, it was absolutely vital that Prince Henry became King Henry with an orderly transition of power, with a legitimate death of one king, proclamation of his eldest son, coronation.

These political norms that had been broken by the revolution of 1399 to 1400 had to be restored and normality in politics had to be resumed. It's a feeling that many people in the world hang for today, I'm sure. But they managed to pull it off. And so from 1413 onwards, English politics starts to sort of pick up a little bit and the fortunes of the country start to revive.

These political norms that had been broken by the revolution of 1399 to 1400 had to be restored and normality in politics had to be resumed. It's a feeling that many people in the world hang for today, I'm sure. But they managed to pull it off. And so from 1413 onwards, English politics starts to sort of pick up a little bit and the fortunes of the country start to revive.

Yeah, I mean, the lesson there is that politics has always been about, you know, what is the phrase we use today, controlling the narrative, even when the narrative, if you start to unpick it, is completely preposterous. What you have in the 14th century is the, you know, Richard II has been murdered. They don't say he's been murdered, he's died.

Yeah, I mean, the lesson there is that politics has always been about, you know, what is the phrase we use today, controlling the narrative, even when the narrative, if you start to unpick it, is completely preposterous. What you have in the 14th century is the, you know, Richard II has been murdered. They don't say he's been murdered, he's died.

Yeah, well, I mean, the story of Henry V takes place across the late 14th, early 15th century. And by that point, nobody has really known in England any other form of government than a monarchy, a monarchy sort of limited and in some senses assisted, in some senses resisted by institutions, parliament.

Yeah, well, I mean, the story of Henry V takes place across the late 14th, early 15th century. And by that point, nobody has really known in England any other form of government than a monarchy, a monarchy sort of limited and in some senses assisted, in some senses resisted by institutions, parliament.

They parade, as you said, they parade his body around the place. Hey, look, he's dead. Hey, look, he's dead. Here's the dead guy, he's dead. But within months, people, they don't want to hear that. And so rumors of Richard II's survival persist for well into Henry V's reign.

They parade, as you said, they parade his body around the place. Hey, look, he's dead. Hey, look, he's dead. Here's the dead guy, he's dead. But within months, people, they don't want to hear that. And so rumors of Richard II's survival persist for well into Henry V's reign.

I mean, decades after he's been buried once, King's Langley, the start of Henry V's reign, he has him reburied in the tomb Richard had designed for himself where he still lies today in Westminster Abbey.

I mean, decades after he's been buried once, King's Langley, the start of Henry V's reign, he has him reburied in the tomb Richard had designed for himself where he still lies today in Westminster Abbey.

um and even still years after that there's there are still these kind of whispers that actually the real richard ii was kind of spirited away that his body was swapped with somebody else's that he'll be back it's not really about richard himself it's about the desire for an alternative and if you proceed from that desire people are willing to warp their their uh like suspend their disbelief suspend their common sense suspend their understanding of how the world's

um and even still years after that there's there are still these kind of whispers that actually the real richard ii was kind of spirited away that his body was swapped with somebody else's that he'll be back it's not really about richard himself it's about the desire for an alternative and if you proceed from that desire people are willing to warp their their uh like suspend their disbelief suspend their common sense suspend their understanding of how the world's

physically and biologically works, but that's politics. We don't need to dig into specific examples, but you see it generation after generation, year after year. A narrative can take hold, which is a big lie, but if people are willing to believe the big lie and act as if it were true, then it may as well be true.

physically and biologically works, but that's politics. We don't need to dig into specific examples, but you see it generation after generation, year after year. A narrative can take hold, which is a big lie, but if people are willing to believe the big lie and act as if it were true, then it may as well be true.

Henry V's great-grandfather, Edward III, who we mentioned earlier in this conversation, had staked a claim, a dynastic claim, in the year 1337 through 1340, that he was not only the rightful king of England, but also the rightful king of France.

Henry V's great-grandfather, Edward III, who we mentioned earlier in this conversation, had staked a claim, a dynastic claim, in the year 1337 through 1340, that he was not only the rightful king of England, but also the rightful king of France.

For whatever territorial disputes had existed before that point between English kings and French kings, no one had ever said they were the rightful king of both realms. But Edward III does. And he does it because he's descended through his mother and father from both royal lines. That claim is rebuffed and rejected. Edward III begins the war we call the Hundred Years' War.

For whatever territorial disputes had existed before that point between English kings and French kings, no one had ever said they were the rightful king of both realms. But Edward III does. And he does it because he's descended through his mother and father from both royal lines. That claim is rebuffed and rejected. Edward III begins the war we call the Hundred Years' War.

the notional claim of the English during this war is they want the crown of France. Now, there's a big question as to whether Edward III actually believes that this is a realistic prospect.

the notional claim of the English during this war is they want the crown of France. Now, there's a big question as to whether Edward III actually believes that this is a realistic prospect.

He gets relatively close, actually, in 1360, but never takes the crown and then bargains it away for a big grant of land within what we now think is the Kingdom of France, which gives him profit, which gives him trading opportunities, advantages, which gives him control of a big stretch of the French coast and so on and so forth.

He gets relatively close, actually, in 1360, but never takes the crown and then bargains it away for a big grant of land within what we now think is the Kingdom of France, which gives him profit, which gives him trading opportunities, advantages, which gives him control of a big stretch of the French coast and so on and so forth.

councils of nobles and the church and so on but but monarchy is like age old at this point i mean you think about the regnal numbers of english kings we're talking about henry v richard ii henry iv these date back to a very specific time and that's the norman conquest of 1066 when william duke of normandy william the bastard as he became known william the conqueror came invaded England.

councils of nobles and the church and so on but but monarchy is like age old at this point i mean you think about the regnal numbers of english kings we're talking about henry v richard ii henry iv these date back to a very specific time and that's the norman conquest of 1066 when william duke of normandy william the bastard as he became known william the conqueror came invaded England.

That claim, which although Edwards does bargain away in 1360, seems to persist in the minds of at least some of the English who believe that it should never have been bargained away, who believe that actually, no, you know what, it is our blood right to be kings of both realms. And Henry V certainly buys into it. He comes to the throne as a 26-year-old guy with this burning sense of injustice.

That claim, which although Edwards does bargain away in 1360, seems to persist in the minds of at least some of the English who believe that it should never have been bargained away, who believe that actually, no, you know what, it is our blood right to be kings of both realms. And Henry V certainly buys into it. He comes to the throne as a 26-year-old guy with this burning sense of injustice.

He is like, I should be the king of France as well as the king of England. That's not to say that he doesn't see there are other parts to this claim. It's not just that he thinks it's his right to have that crown and that in and of itself is a political goal.

He is like, I should be the king of France as well as the king of England. That's not to say that he doesn't see there are other parts to this claim. It's not just that he thinks it's his right to have that crown and that in and of itself is a political goal.

He also sees that there are great economic advantages to having cause to make war on France, that there are great territorial concessions he can make if he goes to war with France. But I think he really does believe in a way that no one before him has wholeheartedly believed that he should be the king of France. And he's going to do anything within his power to stake that claim.

He also sees that there are great economic advantages to having cause to make war on France, that there are great territorial concessions he can make if he goes to war with France. But I think he really does believe in a way that no one before him has wholeheartedly believed that he should be the king of France. And he's going to do anything within his power to stake that claim.

So in 1415, when he's been king for just over two years, he sets sail with a very, very big army, the biggest that had been taken out of England since his great-grandfather's day, to invade England. Normandy, so the duchy in northern France. And he invades at the mouth of the River Seine, a town called Harfleur.

So in 1415, when he's been king for just over two years, he sets sail with a very, very big army, the biggest that had been taken out of England since his great-grandfather's day, to invade England. Normandy, so the duchy in northern France. And he invades at the mouth of the River Seine, a town called Harfleur.

And if anyone listening knows their Shakespeare, they'll be familiar with the siege of Harfleur, with cannon being deployed against the walls of this coastal town. Once more into the breach, dear friends, the great soliloquy comes from that part of the play. Henry spends a long time besieging this city and then successfully takes it. And that is a great victory.

And if anyone listening knows their Shakespeare, they'll be familiar with the siege of Harfleur, with cannon being deployed against the walls of this coastal town. Once more into the breach, dear friends, the great soliloquy comes from that part of the play. Henry spends a long time besieging this city and then successfully takes it. And that is a great victory.

It's the greatest victory in 1415 that the English had won against the French since 1347, sort of. 1356, let's say. But it was the greatest town they'd won since 1347 when they'd taken Calais. And it wins them this really, really useful bridgehead on the French coast. But Henry's feel, like that's not enough. And you see his psychology at the moment that he wins the siege at Arfleur.

It's the greatest victory in 1415 that the English had won against the French since 1347, sort of. 1356, let's say. But it was the greatest town they'd won since 1347 when they'd taken Calais. And it wins them this really, really useful bridgehead on the French coast. But Henry's feel, like that's not enough. And you see his psychology at the moment that he wins the siege at Arfleur.

It's late in the year 1415. It's too late to besiege any other cities. His men are very sick. There's a lot of dysentery and other diseases whipping around the camp. Lots of his friends have died of these diseases. They're running out of food. Everything says, you've won Arfleur. Secure it. Go home. Regroup. Come again. But Henry doesn't do that. He decides that he wants more.

It's late in the year 1415. It's too late to besiege any other cities. His men are very sick. There's a lot of dysentery and other diseases whipping around the camp. Lots of his friends have died of these diseases. They're running out of food. Everything says, you've won Arfleur. Secure it. Go home. Regroup. Come again. But Henry doesn't do that. He decides that he wants more.

He wants to show that he is the coming man and he should be the one to take the crown of France. So he sets off on what becomes an incredibly famous march. It's supposed to last a week. It ends up lasting several weeks. And it ends with him being hunted down by the French and forced to fight a battle.

He wants to show that he is the coming man and he should be the one to take the crown of France. So he sets off on what becomes an incredibly famous march. It's supposed to last a week. It ends up lasting several weeks. And it ends with him being hunted down by the French and forced to fight a battle.

25th of October, 1415, the Battle of Agincourt, at which he gambles effectively absolutely everything on the outcome of one afternoon's fighting.

25th of October, 1415, the Battle of Agincourt, at which he gambles effectively absolutely everything on the outcome of one afternoon's fighting.

And from that point, kings are numbered one, two, three, according to the frequency of that name in the succession. There had been kings long before that as well. The great challenge prior to the Norman conquest had been to impose a single kingship on the whole of England. The great break of the Norman conquest is that

And from that point, kings are numbered one, two, three, according to the frequency of that name in the succession. There had been kings long before that as well. The great challenge prior to the Norman conquest had been to impose a single kingship on the whole of England. The great break of the Norman conquest is that

Well, France is effectively teetering permanently at this point on the brink of civil war. Because you mentioned Charles VI, and rightly so. Charles VI, king of France in France, In the year 1392, so a long time before Henry comes to power himself, Charles VI has a very severe mental breakdown. and thereafter he is in and out of lucidity for the rest of his reign.

Well, France is effectively teetering permanently at this point on the brink of civil war. Because you mentioned Charles VI, and rightly so. Charles VI, king of France in France, In the year 1392, so a long time before Henry comes to power himself, Charles VI has a very severe mental breakdown. and thereafter he is in and out of lucidity for the rest of his reign.

He's periodically completely insane, either catatonic or running around madly, thinking he's on fire, thinking he's made of glass, doesn't recognize anybody, running around his palace naked, smeared in his own feces. He's like, the guy's gone. Not great. But the trouble is he'll come in and out of these madnesses.

He's periodically completely insane, either catatonic or running around madly, thinking he's on fire, thinking he's made of glass, doesn't recognize anybody, running around his palace naked, smeared in his own feces. He's like, the guy's gone. Not great. But the trouble is he'll come in and out of these madnesses.

If the guy was just completely gone and never coming back, that's one thing you can sort of try and rule around it. But he comes in and out of madness. That's a big problem. It's a problem that England will much later suffer with Henry VI as well. I'm sure we can come to that. So Charles VI in France is teetering on the brink of insanity from 1392 onwards and factions emerge in the court

If the guy was just completely gone and never coming back, that's one thing you can sort of try and rule around it. But he comes in and out of madness. That's a big problem. It's a problem that England will much later suffer with Henry VI as well. I'm sure we can come to that. So Charles VI in France is teetering on the brink of insanity from 1392 onwards and factions emerge in the court

led by various of his relatives, the most important of whom is a guy called Jean Saint-Pierre, John the Fearless, Duke Burgundy, who is constantly a disruptive force in French politics, trying to pursue his own ends, trying to make himself the effective master of the French state, resisted heavily by another faction. They come to be known as the Armagnacs.

led by various of his relatives, the most important of whom is a guy called Jean Saint-Pierre, John the Fearless, Duke Burgundy, who is constantly a disruptive force in French politics, trying to pursue his own ends, trying to make himself the effective master of the French state, resisted heavily by another faction. They come to be known as the Armagnacs.

So you have this French civil war with the Burgundians, followers of John the Fearless on the one hand, and the Armagnacs on the other. And they're constantly at each other's throats. So this provides a perfect opportunity, if you like, for the English to try and insert themselves as a third party in the civil war for their own advantage.

So you have this French civil war with the Burgundians, followers of John the Fearless on the one hand, and the Armagnacs on the other. And they're constantly at each other's throats. So this provides a perfect opportunity, if you like, for the English to try and insert themselves as a third party in the civil war for their own advantage.

Throughout Henry IV's reign, there's always this question of, do you side with the Burgundians? Do you side with the Armagnacs? They go back and forth. Henry V always prefers the Burgundians. He teams up with John the Fearless periodically once he becomes king. But his overriding goal is always to leverage this French civil war to get as much out of it for the English as possible.

Throughout Henry IV's reign, there's always this question of, do you side with the Burgundians? Do you side with the Armagnacs? They go back and forth. Henry V always prefers the Burgundians. He teams up with John the Fearless periodically once he becomes king. But his overriding goal is always to leverage this French civil war to get as much out of it for the English as possible.

So at all moments, he's trying to play the two sides off against one another for his own military, political, territorial advantage.

So at all moments, he's trying to play the two sides off against one another for his own military, political, territorial advantage.

from that point on kingship really does apply to the whole of england there'd been these phases where kings alfred the great had tried to hold the whole of england but then the thing had splintered you'd had invasions from denmark and scandinavia it's an age-old system by this point but really that i mean the the moment everyone's numbering things from is 1066

from that point on kingship really does apply to the whole of england there'd been these phases where kings alfred the great had tried to hold the whole of england but then the thing had splintered you'd had invasions from denmark and scandinavia it's an age-old system by this point but really that i mean the the moment everyone's numbering things from is 1066

Yeah. It's not a disease of our time, although it is a disease that is particularly severe in our time, of casting moral judgments over past ages, which happen to work to a completely different standard of behavior. You mentioned Andrew Roberts. Andrew is a brilliant scholar. I like him a lot. He's a great man. and a brilliant historian.

Yeah. It's not a disease of our time, although it is a disease that is particularly severe in our time, of casting moral judgments over past ages, which happen to work to a completely different standard of behavior. You mentioned Andrew Roberts. Andrew is a brilliant scholar. I like him a lot. He's a great man. and a brilliant historian.

In the book of his, I suppose, that springs to mind as you're speaking is not just his Napoleon, but his Churchill as well.

In the book of his, I suppose, that springs to mind as you're speaking is not just his Napoleon, but his Churchill as well.

And Andrew is a great fan of Churchill and read a very favorable biography to Churchill, an excellent biography, which attracted a degree of criticism because it's fashionable now to say of Churchill, he was a warmonger, he was a racist, he was an imperialist, he was really saying, he's just a sort of mildly old-fashioned guy in his own day.

And Andrew is a great fan of Churchill and read a very favorable biography to Churchill, an excellent biography, which attracted a degree of criticism because it's fashionable now to say of Churchill, he was a warmonger, he was a racist, he was an imperialist, he was really saying, he's just a sort of mildly old-fashioned guy in his own day.

To call Henry V a warmonger is simply to say that he was a medieval king. Those medieval kings who shied away from pursuing warfare, like Richard II, were very, very, very seldom successful. Warfare was, per Clausewitz, politics pursued by other means. I mean, in fact, in the Middle Ages, it was one of the principal means of politics. Warfare was just part of the job.

To call Henry V a warmonger is simply to say that he was a medieval king. Those medieval kings who shied away from pursuing warfare, like Richard II, were very, very, very seldom successful. Warfare was, per Clausewitz, politics pursued by other means. I mean, in fact, in the Middle Ages, it was one of the principal means of politics. Warfare was just part of the job.

You see the seal, the great seal of the kings applied to authenticate documents in this age. Well, what does it have? It has the king as judge on one side and as warrior on the other. Those are just the basic elements of the job. That doesn't mean that the purpose of kingship was just looking around for somebody to fight.

You see the seal, the great seal of the kings applied to authenticate documents in this age. Well, what does it have? It has the king as judge on one side and as warrior on the other. Those are just the basic elements of the job. That doesn't mean that the purpose of kingship was just looking around for somebody to fight.

But it was inevitable in this age that you would have to be a military ruler. And that was that was like imbued through the entire class, the cast of aristocrats who, by definition, ruled the country, that chivalry was a knightly thing. code of behavior and chivalry informed the way you were supposed to behave. So these are just basic political norms.

But it was inevitable in this age that you would have to be a military ruler. And that was that was like imbued through the entire class, the cast of aristocrats who, by definition, ruled the country, that chivalry was a knightly thing. code of behavior and chivalry informed the way you were supposed to behave. So these are just basic political norms.

And it is naive bordering on crazy for historians to look back and say, well, I don't know why they didn't seem to be more in tune with 21st century mores. The hardest thing for historians today to remember oftentimes is that we are the weird ones. Compared to most of human history, we are the weird ones. To have lived in a world, you know, I was born in 1981. My parents were born in 52.

And it is naive bordering on crazy for historians to look back and say, well, I don't know why they didn't seem to be more in tune with 21st century mores. The hardest thing for historians today to remember oftentimes is that we are the weird ones. Compared to most of human history, we are the weird ones. To have lived in a world, you know, I was born in 1981. My parents were born in 52.

So we're all post-war, the post-war generation, to have lived in this world that has been largely, not totally, obviously, but largely free of major conflicts which have ravaged Western Europe. So I'm putting aside the current Ukraine conflict and that. To have grown up in an age for four generations now where that hasn't happened is bizarre. It's historically almost totally unprecedented.

So we're all post-war, the post-war generation, to have lived in this world that has been largely, not totally, obviously, but largely free of major conflicts which have ravaged Western Europe. So I'm putting aside the current Ukraine conflict and that. To have grown up in an age for four generations now where that hasn't happened is bizarre. It's historically almost totally unprecedented.

And it means that we can often be initially very baffled when we look at periods of European history where it's just war after war after war. Well, that was normal. That has been the history of certainly Western Europe. Forever. So it's like, it's not a great line to pursue Henry V on. Now, there are also, you know, you mentioned the misogyny. Oh, come on. This is just the Middle Ages.

And it means that we can often be initially very baffled when we look at periods of European history where it's just war after war after war. Well, that was normal. That has been the history of certainly Western Europe. Forever. So it's like, it's not a great line to pursue Henry V on. Now, there are also, you know, you mentioned the misogyny. Oh, come on. This is just the Middle Ages.

It's baked into everything. He's a man of his time. Henry V was not necessarily the typical man of his time. He was unusually competent at warfare and unusually willing to pursue a fight if he saw one. He was unusually self-disciplined and uninterested in women, pretty much, with the exception of his wife, Catherine de Valois, whom he married for pretty much political duty.

It's baked into everything. He's a man of his time. Henry V was not necessarily the typical man of his time. He was unusually competent at warfare and unusually willing to pursue a fight if he saw one. He was unusually self-disciplined and uninterested in women, pretty much, with the exception of his wife, Catherine de Valois, whom he married for pretty much political duty.

He was unusually unapproachable to many of the people around him in terms of this sort of severe public demeanour. He was not a good time party king like his grandfather, Edward III, who combined warrior and party goer quite effectively. But he was by no means like a weird outlier in his own society. He was just sort of a particular kind of guy within the norms of the world.

He was unusually unapproachable to many of the people around him in terms of this sort of severe public demeanour. He was not a good time party king like his grandfather, Edward III, who combined warrior and party goer quite effectively. But he was by no means like a weird outlier in his own society. He was just sort of a particular kind of guy within the norms of the world.

had no business having the position i mean that's at least the way i when i got through the book that's kind of the thing i landed on where it's like he actually was meant to do this and succeeded well i think that he would have said the same thing himself you know the the meant to do it thing and a lot of it stems back to this moment when he is 16 years old and is almost killed at the battle of shrewsbury with that arrow in the face i think he comes out of that with um and again this very obvious parallel with modern politics american politics he comes out of that uh that brush with death

had no business having the position i mean that's at least the way i when i got through the book that's kind of the thing i landed on where it's like he actually was meant to do this and succeeded well i think that he would have said the same thing himself you know the the meant to do it thing and a lot of it stems back to this moment when he is 16 years old and is almost killed at the battle of shrewsbury with that arrow in the face i think he comes out of that with um and again this very obvious parallel with modern politics american politics he comes out of that uh that brush with death

really, really convinced that he is, God wants him to succeed. God wants him to do this. And he says it explicitly at later times in his life. After the Battle of Agincourt, the Duke of Orléans has been captured, very dejected about that fact, young man.

really, really convinced that he is, God wants him to succeed. God wants him to do this. And he says it explicitly at later times in his life. After the Battle of Agincourt, the Duke of Orléans has been captured, very dejected about that fact, young man.

Henry sort of puts his arm around his shoulder as he's being led off to a quarter of a century of captivity in England and says to him, look, it's nothing personal. He says, and Henry says, you know, I am just God's scourge. I'm just a vessel for God's work. God wants this to happen. You French are decadent. He sent me to punish you. You've got to understand this.

Henry sort of puts his arm around his shoulder as he's being led off to a quarter of a century of captivity in England and says to him, look, it's nothing personal. He says, and Henry says, you know, I am just God's scourge. I'm just a vessel for God's work. God wants this to happen. You French are decadent. He sent me to punish you. You've got to understand this.

And when there are public triumphs to celebrate Henry's victories, it's the same thing. He's like, it's not about me. Don't celebrate me. only recognize that I am a vehicle, a vessel, the tool, the rod of God's will, and it's being executed through me. Now, that is an unusually, if you come across somebody with that psychology, they tend to be very hard to put off their track.

And when there are public triumphs to celebrate Henry's victories, it's the same thing. He's like, it's not about me. Don't celebrate me. only recognize that I am a vehicle, a vessel, the tool, the rod of God's will, and it's being executed through me. Now, that is an unusually, if you come across somebody with that psychology, they tend to be very hard to put off their track.

God wants me to do it. It's fixity. It's a certainty with which he operates. And it makes, I think for Henry, it makes a lot of this decision, political decision-making really easy because there's not much vacillation. There's like, I know what I'm here to do and I'm going to do it. So, um,

God wants me to do it. It's fixity. It's a certainty with which he operates. And it makes, I think for Henry, it makes a lot of this decision, political decision-making really easy because there's not much vacillation. There's like, I know what I'm here to do and I'm going to do it. So, um,

That's, yeah, but it is very unusual because human beings, which is what we're talking about, are very often conflicted and flawed and pulled in many directions by many different motivations. And it's rare to find somebody possessed of such extraordinary discipline. Discipline is one of the things that humans struggle most with. It's the basis of the Jocko Willick podcast.

That's, yeah, but it is very unusual because human beings, which is what we're talking about, are very often conflicted and flawed and pulled in many directions by many different motivations. And it's rare to find somebody possessed of such extraordinary discipline. Discipline is one of the things that humans struggle most with. It's the basis of the Jocko Willick podcast.

I mean, you know, we all really struggle to do the thing. But Henry is a guy who does the thing.

I mean, you know, we all really struggle to do the thing. But Henry is a guy who does the thing.

Right. I mean, so that the... Basic principles, we're talking about a dynasty that today we call the Plantagenet dynasty. They had been in power in England since 1154, Henry II, and there had been a sort of England being part of an empire, for want of a better word, which included parts of France as well and claims over Ireland and Scotland and such.

Right. I mean, so that the... Basic principles, we're talking about a dynasty that today we call the Plantagenet dynasty. They had been in power in England since 1154, Henry II, and there had been a sort of England being part of an empire, for want of a better word, which included parts of France as well and claims over Ireland and Scotland and such.

Oh, yeah. Oftentimes I found it does sound a lot like Jocko. There's two occasions spring to mind. There are lots of different reports of what Henry says before the Battle of Agincourt, how to rouse his troops. Probably he says a bunch of different things because you can't address the whole army in one go. Then we have Shakespeare, you know, the Great St. Crispin's Day speech.

Oh, yeah. Oftentimes I found it does sound a lot like Jocko. There's two occasions spring to mind. There are lots of different reports of what Henry says before the Battle of Agincourt, how to rouse his troops. Probably he says a bunch of different things because you can't address the whole army in one go. Then we have Shakespeare, you know, the Great St. Crispin's Day speech.

The one that sounds most like Henry, if you read the other things that he dictated in his own words, is an account from a London Chronicle which says all he said before the Battle of Agincourt was, fellas, let's go. There's three words. That's the motivational speech. And then there's another occasion, quite similar actually. It's 1419 after the Ciduron.

The one that sounds most like Henry, if you read the other things that he dictated in his own words, is an account from a London Chronicle which says all he said before the Battle of Agincourt was, fellas, let's go. There's three words. That's the motivational speech. And then there's another occasion, quite similar actually. It's 1419 after the Ciduron.

a horrible, horrible winter siege which has gone on for six months. Henry has starved the inhabitants of Rome into submission.

a horrible, horrible winter siege which has gone on for six months. Henry has starved the inhabitants of Rome into submission.

There have been occasions where the citizens of Rome have chucked out useless mouths, quote unquote, women, children, the elderly, people who can't fight but are consuming food and resources, throwing them out of the city, but the English won't allow them through the siege lines, so they're starving in the ditch, the moat, let's say, the dry ditch that surrounds the city of Rome.

There have been occasions where the citizens of Rome have chucked out useless mouths, quote unquote, women, children, the elderly, people who can't fight but are consuming food and resources, throwing them out of the city, but the English won't allow them through the siege lines, so they're starving in the ditch, the moat, let's say, the dry ditch that surrounds the city of Rome.

And when the citizens of Rouen decide that they're going to capitulate, they're going to give up, they send messengers to Henry to negotiate peace. And top of their list of sort of immediate things they want to this peace deal is soccer, is help for the starving people in the ditch around Rouen.

And when the citizens of Rouen decide that they're going to capitulate, they're going to give up, they send messengers to Henry to negotiate peace. And top of their list of sort of immediate things they want to this peace deal is soccer, is help for the starving people in the ditch around Rouen.

They say, first, before we do anything else, please, like humanitarian aid, get some help to these poor people starving in the ditch. And Henry just looks at them and says, fellas, who put them there? This is on you. Don't come to me with your whiny bullshit. So he has this cast iron determination. And sometimes there's no sugarcoating. It's absolutely brutal.

They say, first, before we do anything else, please, like humanitarian aid, get some help to these poor people starving in the ditch. And Henry just looks at them and says, fellas, who put them there? This is on you. Don't come to me with your whiny bullshit. So he has this cast iron determination. And sometimes there's no sugarcoating. It's absolutely brutal.

But he's always coming back to discipline, focus, purpose, execute on what you say you're going to do.

But he's always coming back to discipline, focus, purpose, execute on what you say you're going to do.

which worked which ended up working despite it scared me a little bit on like the first couple pages yeah well i didn't tell my editors i was doing it until i just handed the book in and uh because i knew they'd say don't approach the book in this particular way it's gonna fit i just had this deep instinct that this was the way to tell the story and that there was a way to i mean henry is an a cold character he can and he can be hard to create empathy with but i just had this sense of

which worked which ended up working despite it scared me a little bit on like the first couple pages yeah well i didn't tell my editors i was doing it until i just handed the book in and uh because i knew they'd say don't approach the book in this particular way it's gonna fit i just had this deep instinct that this was the way to tell the story and that there was a way to i mean henry is an a cold character he can and he can be hard to create empathy with but i just had this sense of

i'd come up with a way of telling this historical story that wouldn't throw the chronology out of shape that would just keep that would like launch you into the story and just keep you there like from start to finish and listen this is like the 15th book i've written and this is for me like a lot of the business of history communication whether it's you know podcasts like this or on television or whatever it might be on the page is

i'd come up with a way of telling this historical story that wouldn't throw the chronology out of shape that would just keep that would like launch you into the story and just keep you there like from start to finish and listen this is like the 15th book i've written and this is for me like a lot of the business of history communication whether it's you know podcasts like this or on television or whatever it might be on the page is

let's take this material from the past, which is so full of not of entertainment, but also of lessons that we can sort of meditate on the world today. And let's make it feel as exciting as the best HBO kind of series or Netflix show or whatever it is. That's my kind of calling. And it gives me great satisfaction, not only to do it, but to hear readers like yourself appreciating it.

let's take this material from the past, which is so full of not of entertainment, but also of lessons that we can sort of meditate on the world today. And let's make it feel as exciting as the best HBO kind of series or Netflix show or whatever it is. That's my kind of calling. And it gives me great satisfaction, not only to do it, but to hear readers like yourself appreciating it.

By the time we get to the late 14th century, there's been a pretty lineal descent of kings, actually. In the 14th century, a great king, Edward III, great by the acknowledgement of the people of his day and thereafter, rules England, wins lots of victories in the wars against France, has a lot of children. Edward III dies after a 50-year reign in 1377 and is succeeded by his grandson, Richard II.

By the time we get to the late 14th century, there's been a pretty lineal descent of kings, actually. In the 14th century, a great king, Edward III, great by the acknowledgement of the people of his day and thereafter, rules England, wins lots of victories in the wars against France, has a lot of children. Edward III dies after a 50-year reign in 1377 and is succeeded by his grandson, Richard II.

So thank you for that.

So thank you for that.

Richard II is the eldest son of the eldest son of Edward III. The missing link, therefore, is Richard II's father, known to history as the Black Prince, a great warrior, but died before Edward III. So in 1377, both Edward III, his son, the Black Prince, die, and they leave as king, therefore, a young boy for Richard II, who's 10 years old at the time that he inherits the throne.

Richard II is the eldest son of the eldest son of Edward III. The missing link, therefore, is Richard II's father, known to history as the Black Prince, a great warrior, but died before Edward III. So in 1377, both Edward III, his son, the Black Prince, die, and they leave as king, therefore, a young boy for Richard II, who's 10 years old at the time that he inherits the throne.

10 years old is not a great time to become a king. In some ways, it's much worse than any other age to become a king because you're entering the cusp of adolescence. There will be times in the Middle Ages in many kingdoms where inheritance falls on a baby, completely incapable of even understanding the job, let alone performing it.

10 years old is not a great time to become a king. In some ways, it's much worse than any other age to become a king because you're entering the cusp of adolescence. There will be times in the Middle Ages in many kingdoms where inheritance falls on a baby, completely incapable of even understanding the job, let alone performing it.

And oftentimes that's okay because you have ruling councils who rule in the name of that child. The child won't get involved. Having a boy of 10 upwards to 18 on the throne is a real problem because they have some understanding, some political will, but they're also constrained by the law not to be able to fully exercise their office. So it's a very awkward period.

And oftentimes that's okay because you have ruling councils who rule in the name of that child. The child won't get involved. Having a boy of 10 upwards to 18 on the throne is a real problem because they have some understanding, some political will, but they're also constrained by the law not to be able to fully exercise their office. So it's a very awkward period.

Richard II also grows up knowing no example of kingship because he's only 10 when his grandfather dies because he never sees his father rule.

Richard II also grows up knowing no example of kingship because he's only 10 when his grandfather dies because he never sees his father rule.

he has no model for what kingship looks like he's told in 1377 when he comes to the throne he's the messiah basically he's going to come and save england the last years of his grandfather edward iii's reign have been years of corruption of decay of losses in the war of edwards the king then sliding into age-related dementia senility so richard's told that he's he's going to save the kingdom

he has no model for what kingship looks like he's told in 1377 when he comes to the throne he's the messiah basically he's going to come and save england the last years of his grandfather edward iii's reign have been years of corruption of decay of losses in the war of edwards the king then sliding into age-related dementia senility so richard's told that he's he's going to save the kingdom

Well, that's also a dangerous thing to tell a child. You don't really want to tell a child that they're the messiah. That's parenting 101 as well as like politics 101. But he grows up sort of imbued with this sense and is then doubly outraged at all moments in his reign thereafter when he's thwarted or stymied because he's like, I thought I was the messiah.

Well, that's also a dangerous thing to tell a child. You don't really want to tell a child that they're the messiah. That's parenting 101 as well as like politics 101. But he grows up sort of imbued with this sense and is then doubly outraged at all moments in his reign thereafter when he's thwarted or stymied because he's like, I thought I was the messiah.

I thought I was the God-given savior of this country. And now you're telling me I can't do X. Okay, so Richard II, despite this, grows up. His reign consists of a number of crises. There's a populist rebellion in 1381 known as the Peasants' Revolt. There is a phase of political resistance of various lords in his realm trying to corral, constrain him, force him to rule properly.

I thought I was the God-given savior of this country. And now you're telling me I can't do X. Okay, so Richard II, despite this, grows up. His reign consists of a number of crises. There's a populist rebellion in 1381 known as the Peasants' Revolt. There is a phase of political resistance of various lords in his realm trying to corral, constrain him, force him to rule properly.

That's in the late 1380s. And by the time we get to the late 1390s, Richard has proven himself time and time again to be a complete failure as a king. He's got a cousin. His first cousin is called Henry Bolingbroke. Henry is also a grandson of the great King Edward III via his father called John of Gaunt. And they're of approximately the same age.

That's in the late 1380s. And by the time we get to the late 1390s, Richard has proven himself time and time again to be a complete failure as a king. He's got a cousin. His first cousin is called Henry Bolingbroke. Henry is also a grandson of the great King Edward III via his father called John of Gaunt. And they're of approximately the same age.

They grew up parallel lives, but their characters are very different and their paths through life are very different. But there comes a crisis in 1390, 789, where Richard the King accuses his cousin, Henry Bolingbroke, of treachery and treason effectively, forces him to fight a duel against another lord, banishes him from the kingdom and takes away all his lands.

They grew up parallel lives, but their characters are very different and their paths through life are very different. But there comes a crisis in 1390, 789, where Richard the King accuses his cousin, Henry Bolingbroke, of treachery and treason effectively, forces him to fight a duel against another lord, banishes him from the kingdom and takes away all his lands.

That provokes Henry Bolingbroke, the cousin, into a rebellion, gathers some forces in France, comes back and deposes Richard II. By now, the hero of our story, a second Henry, to be Henry V, has been born. And so his experience as a young child is also not seeing functional kingship. It's seeing his first cousin once removed, Richard II, making a complete balls-up of being king.

That provokes Henry Bolingbroke, the cousin, into a rebellion, gathers some forces in France, comes back and deposes Richard II. By now, the hero of our story, a second Henry, to be Henry V, has been born. And so his experience as a young child is also not seeing functional kingship. It's seeing his first cousin once removed, Richard II, making a complete balls-up of being king.

And it's seeing his father struggling to come to terms with that and then rebelling. So cut to 1400, Richard's been kicked off the throne and murdered. Henry Bolingbroke is King Henry IV, and his eldest son, to be King Henry V, is now the next in line to the throne. It's much easier if I draw you a family tree on paper. I realize I'm speaking this out loud, but that's the nuts and bolts.

And it's seeing his father struggling to come to terms with that and then rebelling. So cut to 1400, Richard's been kicked off the throne and murdered. Henry Bolingbroke is King Henry IV, and his eldest son, to be King Henry V, is now the next in line to the throne. It's much easier if I draw you a family tree on paper. I realize I'm speaking this out loud, but that's the nuts and bolts.

Yeah. So Henry IV, Henry Bolingbroke, becomes Henry IV in 1399-1400, this revolution, and is then a very difficult situation, as any usurper king always is. You take the throne, you're automatically reliant on...

Yeah. So Henry IV, Henry Bolingbroke, becomes Henry IV in 1399-1400, this revolution, and is then a very difficult situation, as any usurper king always is. You take the throne, you're automatically reliant on...

generally a small group of people who've helped you do it to expect undue rewards king makers um and it's it's always a difficult situation so henry the fourth becomes king he's got four sons henry thomas uh john and humphrey and the eldest three of those he starts deploying quite quickly as his kind of lieutenant because the theory is you could

generally a small group of people who've helped you do it to expect undue rewards king makers um and it's it's always a difficult situation so henry the fourth becomes king he's got four sons henry thomas uh john and humphrey and the eldest three of those he starts deploying quite quickly as his kind of lieutenant because the theory is you could

You might not be able to trust many people in this country he's taken over, but he's going to be able to trust his family. These boys are also teenagers, and they're given a lot of responsibility as a means of military and political training. Henry, to be Henry V, the eldest, is made Prince of Wales. That's still typically the title that's given to the male heir to the now British, crown.

You might not be able to trust many people in this country he's taken over, but he's going to be able to trust his family. These boys are also teenagers, and they're given a lot of responsibility as a means of military and political training. Henry, to be Henry V, the eldest, is made Prince of Wales. That's still typically the title that's given to the male heir to the now British, crown.

And he sent off to Wales at the age of about 13 to deal with the rebellion of a Welsh kind of firebrand rabble-rouser known as Owain Glyndwr, or Owen Glyndwr in Shakespeare. Glyndwr has claimed that he is the native rightful Prince of Wales, and he's raised the whole of that principality in rebellion against English rule. He's in contact with France, who are England's foreign enemies.

And he sent off to Wales at the age of about 13 to deal with the rebellion of a Welsh kind of firebrand rabble-rouser known as Owain Glyndwr, or Owen Glyndwr in Shakespeare. Glyndwr has claimed that he is the native rightful Prince of Wales, and he's raised the whole of that principality in rebellion against English rule. He's in contact with France, who are England's foreign enemies.

He's in contact with would-be rebels within the Kingdom of England, Scotland, and so on. Young Henry is sent to cut his teeth as a military commander with mentors, with people to help him who are experienced soldiers, but he's got to learn on the job. Fortunately, he takes to this task with a high degree of enthusiasm.

He's in contact with would-be rebels within the Kingdom of England, Scotland, and so on. Young Henry is sent to cut his teeth as a military commander with mentors, with people to help him who are experienced soldiers, but he's got to learn on the job. Fortunately, he takes to this task with a high degree of enthusiasm.

There's a great letter, which I quote in the book, which he writes about the age of 15 to his father. Young Henry is in Wales. Henry IV, the king, is in London. And young Henry, 15 years old, writes back to report what's been going on with Englander. And it's in French, and I'll paraphrase it into English. He says, dear dad, hope all's well. You sent me here to deal with this Englander.

There's a great letter, which I quote in the book, which he writes about the age of 15 to his father. Young Henry is in Wales. Henry IV, the king, is in London. And young Henry, 15 years old, writes back to report what's been going on with Englander. And it's in French, and I'll paraphrase it into English. He says, dear dad, hope all's well. You sent me here to deal with this Englander.

Well, the guy's been putting it around that he wants a fight. So I went out looking for him to have this fight he says he wants. I couldn't find him anywhere, so I went around his house. He wasn't in, so I burned it down. And then I went round his other house, and he wasn't there either.

Well, the guy's been putting it around that he wants a fight. So I went out looking for him to have this fight he says he wants. I couldn't find him anywhere, so I went around his house. He wasn't in, so I burned it down. And then I went round his other house, and he wasn't there either.

But one of his friends was and begged me to spare his life and offered me all this money, so I cut his head off. Hope was well, praise be to God, lots of love, Henry. It's astonishing. And I mean, yeah, of course I'm paraphrasing, but I'm not really paraphrasing that much.

But one of his friends was and begged me to spare his life and offered me all this money, so I cut his head off. Hope was well, praise be to God, lots of love, Henry. It's astonishing. And I mean, yeah, of course I'm paraphrasing, but I'm not really paraphrasing that much.

I mean, this letter just like bursts with kind of youthful bravado, with brio, with just genuine love and enthusiasm for the business of warfare. So here... the Lancastrian family, as we call Henry IV and his kids, have lucked out effectively because this boy, to be Henry V, absolutely loves war. He really, really takes to it. And he's just got an innate taste for it.

I mean, this letter just like bursts with kind of youthful bravado, with brio, with just genuine love and enthusiasm for the business of warfare. So here... the Lancastrian family, as we call Henry IV and his kids, have lucked out effectively because this boy, to be Henry V, absolutely loves war. He really, really takes to it. And he's just got an innate taste for it.

And in the early 15th century, that's a good thing in your ruler. It's not necessarily the total skill set we always want today, but then this is good. It's good news.

And in the early 15th century, that's a good thing in your ruler. It's not necessarily the total skill set we always want today, but then this is good. It's good news.

yeah look he has this really really intense on the job training as prince of wales and uh it serves him in very good stead you know from age 13 through 18 19 20 he learns the ropes and you mentioned his injury we should say in 1403 when he's 16 he fights this battle he takes an arrow in the face uh the arrowhead gets lodged in the back of in the back of his skull he has to have

yeah look he has this really really intense on the job training as prince of wales and uh it serves him in very good stead you know from age 13 through 18 19 20 he learns the ropes and you mentioned his injury we should say in 1403 when he's 16 he fights this battle he takes an arrow in the face uh the arrowhead gets lodged in the back of in the back of his skull he has to have

major surgery to remove it, and he's incredibly lucky to survive. But he's hardened, he's toughened in war. He then, you know, as you rightly say, his father becomes very ill. From 1406 onwards, Henry IV is suffering from a series of different interconnected maladies. And his health is very poor, but it takes a long time, it takes seven years effectively to die.

major surgery to remove it, and he's incredibly lucky to survive. But he's hardened, he's toughened in war. He then, you know, as you rightly say, his father becomes very ill. From 1406 onwards, Henry IV is suffering from a series of different interconnected maladies. And his health is very poor, but it takes a long time, it takes seven years effectively to die.

So, yeah, you get to this point, 1410, 1112, where Henry dies. to be Henry V, Henry, Prince of Wales, is really doing the job of king. He's held it down militarily. He's effectively president of his father's council. He's taking a lot of the major decisions with regard to domestic and foreign policy. But he's not the king. And he makes a serious error by basically asking his father to abdicate.

So, yeah, you get to this point, 1410, 1112, where Henry dies. to be Henry V, Henry, Prince of Wales, is really doing the job of king. He's held it down militarily. He's effectively president of his father's council. He's taking a lot of the major decisions with regard to domestic and foreign policy. But he's not the king. And he makes a serious error by basically asking his father to abdicate.

And he's got a lot of support in making this request, but it is a very stupid thing to do because the one lesson of his father's reign is it is so difficult to rule as king if you haven't inherited the throne fair and square. And there should be no ambiguity about that. And Henry V kind of misses this, tries to take the throne before his time.

And he's got a lot of support in making this request, but it is a very stupid thing to do because the one lesson of his father's reign is it is so difficult to rule as king if you haven't inherited the throne fair and square. And there should be no ambiguity about that. And Henry V kind of misses this, tries to take the throne before his time.

And he's slapped down very, very heavily and very, very hard by his father. who leads him to believe that he's made such a grievous error that he's now, he may have forfeited his right to become king. And Henry the fourth starts like shifting his attention, his favor towards his second son, Thomas, uh, makes him Duke of Clarence.

And I don't think he's totally serious, but he lets Henry believe he's totally serious. And it's a, it's a, it's a valuable lesson. Um, In 1413, Henry IV eventually dies in the Jerusalem Chamber in the Palace of Westminster. And at that point, it's clear that this was never a serious proposition that Thomas, the second son, was going to take over the throne.

Henry, Prince of Wales, becomes Henry V. And from that point on, things start to get a bit easier because, as his aging father had rightly perceived, it was absolutely vital that Prince Henry became King Henry with an orderly transition of power, with a legitimate death of one king, proclamation of his eldest son, coronation.

These political norms that had been broken by the revolution of 1399 to 1400 had to be restored and normality in politics had to be resumed. It's a feeling that many people in the world hang for today, I'm sure. But they managed to pull it off. And so from 1413 onwards, English politics starts to sort of pick up a little bit and the fortunes of the country start to revive.

Yeah, I mean, the lesson there is that politics has always been about, you know, what is the phrase we use today, controlling the narrative, even when the narrative, if you start to unpick it, is completely preposterous. What you have in the 14th century is the, you know, Richard II has been murdered. They don't say he's been murdered, he's died.

Yeah, well, I mean, the story of Henry V takes place across the late 14th, early 15th century. And by that point, nobody has really known in England any other form of government than a monarchy, a monarchy sort of limited and in some senses assisted, in some senses resisted by institutions, parliament.

They parade, as you said, they parade his body around the place. Hey, look, he's dead. Hey, look, he's dead. Here's the dead guy, he's dead. But within months, people, they don't want to hear that. And so rumors of Richard II's survival persist for well into Henry V's reign.

I mean, decades after he's been buried once, King's Langley, the start of Henry V's reign, he has him reburied in the tomb Richard had designed for himself where he still lies today in Westminster Abbey.

um and even still years after that there's there are still these kind of whispers that actually the real richard ii was kind of spirited away that his body was swapped with somebody else's that he'll be back it's not really about richard himself it's about the desire for an alternative and if you proceed from that desire people are willing to warp their their uh like suspend their disbelief suspend their common sense suspend their understanding of how the world's

physically and biologically works, but that's politics. We don't need to dig into specific examples, but you see it generation after generation, year after year. A narrative can take hold, which is a big lie, but if people are willing to believe the big lie and act as if it were true, then it may as well be true.

Henry V's great-grandfather, Edward III, who we mentioned earlier in this conversation, had staked a claim, a dynastic claim, in the year 1337 through 1340, that he was not only the rightful king of England, but also the rightful king of France.

For whatever territorial disputes had existed before that point between English kings and French kings, no one had ever said they were the rightful king of both realms. But Edward III does. And he does it because he's descended through his mother and father from both royal lines. That claim is rebuffed and rejected. Edward III begins the war we call the Hundred Years' War.

the notional claim of the English during this war is they want the crown of France. Now, there's a big question as to whether Edward III actually believes that this is a realistic prospect.

He gets relatively close, actually, in 1360, but never takes the crown and then bargains it away for a big grant of land within what we now think is the Kingdom of France, which gives him profit, which gives him trading opportunities, advantages, which gives him control of a big stretch of the French coast and so on and so forth.

councils of nobles and the church and so on but but monarchy is like age old at this point i mean you think about the regnal numbers of english kings we're talking about henry v richard ii henry iv these date back to a very specific time and that's the norman conquest of 1066 when william duke of normandy william the bastard as he became known william the conqueror came invaded England.

That claim, which although Edwards does bargain away in 1360, seems to persist in the minds of at least some of the English who believe that it should never have been bargained away, who believe that actually, no, you know what, it is our blood right to be kings of both realms. And Henry V certainly buys into it. He comes to the throne as a 26-year-old guy with this burning sense of injustice.

He is like, I should be the king of France as well as the king of England. That's not to say that he doesn't see there are other parts to this claim. It's not just that he thinks it's his right to have that crown and that in and of itself is a political goal.

He also sees that there are great economic advantages to having cause to make war on France, that there are great territorial concessions he can make if he goes to war with France. But I think he really does believe in a way that no one before him has wholeheartedly believed that he should be the king of France. And he's going to do anything within his power to stake that claim.

So in 1415, when he's been king for just over two years, he sets sail with a very, very big army, the biggest that had been taken out of England since his great-grandfather's day, to invade England. Normandy, so the duchy in northern France. And he invades at the mouth of the River Seine, a town called Harfleur.

And if anyone listening knows their Shakespeare, they'll be familiar with the siege of Harfleur, with cannon being deployed against the walls of this coastal town. Once more into the breach, dear friends, the great soliloquy comes from that part of the play. Henry spends a long time besieging this city and then successfully takes it. And that is a great victory.

It's the greatest victory in 1415 that the English had won against the French since 1347, sort of. 1356, let's say. But it was the greatest town they'd won since 1347 when they'd taken Calais. And it wins them this really, really useful bridgehead on the French coast. But Henry's feel, like that's not enough. And you see his psychology at the moment that he wins the siege at Arfleur.

It's late in the year 1415. It's too late to besiege any other cities. His men are very sick. There's a lot of dysentery and other diseases whipping around the camp. Lots of his friends have died of these diseases. They're running out of food. Everything says, you've won Arfleur. Secure it. Go home. Regroup. Come again. But Henry doesn't do that. He decides that he wants more.

He wants to show that he is the coming man and he should be the one to take the crown of France. So he sets off on what becomes an incredibly famous march. It's supposed to last a week. It ends up lasting several weeks. And it ends with him being hunted down by the French and forced to fight a battle.

25th of October, 1415, the Battle of Agincourt, at which he gambles effectively absolutely everything on the outcome of one afternoon's fighting.

And from that point, kings are numbered one, two, three, according to the frequency of that name in the succession. There had been kings long before that as well. The great challenge prior to the Norman conquest had been to impose a single kingship on the whole of England. The great break of the Norman conquest is that

Well, France is effectively teetering permanently at this point on the brink of civil war. Because you mentioned Charles VI, and rightly so. Charles VI, king of France in France, In the year 1392, so a long time before Henry comes to power himself, Charles VI has a very severe mental breakdown. and thereafter he is in and out of lucidity for the rest of his reign.

He's periodically completely insane, either catatonic or running around madly, thinking he's on fire, thinking he's made of glass, doesn't recognize anybody, running around his palace naked, smeared in his own feces. He's like, the guy's gone. Not great. But the trouble is he'll come in and out of these madnesses.

If the guy was just completely gone and never coming back, that's one thing you can sort of try and rule around it. But he comes in and out of madness. That's a big problem. It's a problem that England will much later suffer with Henry VI as well. I'm sure we can come to that. So Charles VI in France is teetering on the brink of insanity from 1392 onwards and factions emerge in the court

led by various of his relatives, the most important of whom is a guy called Jean Saint-Pierre, John the Fearless, Duke Burgundy, who is constantly a disruptive force in French politics, trying to pursue his own ends, trying to make himself the effective master of the French state, resisted heavily by another faction. They come to be known as the Armagnacs.

So you have this French civil war with the Burgundians, followers of John the Fearless on the one hand, and the Armagnacs on the other. And they're constantly at each other's throats. So this provides a perfect opportunity, if you like, for the English to try and insert themselves as a third party in the civil war for their own advantage.

Throughout Henry IV's reign, there's always this question of, do you side with the Burgundians? Do you side with the Armagnacs? They go back and forth. Henry V always prefers the Burgundians. He teams up with John the Fearless periodically once he becomes king. But his overriding goal is always to leverage this French civil war to get as much out of it for the English as possible.

So at all moments, he's trying to play the two sides off against one another for his own military, political, territorial advantage.

from that point on kingship really does apply to the whole of england there'd been these phases where kings alfred the great had tried to hold the whole of england but then the thing had splintered you'd had invasions from denmark and scandinavia it's an age-old system by this point but really that i mean the the moment everyone's numbering things from is 1066

Yeah. It's not a disease of our time, although it is a disease that is particularly severe in our time, of casting moral judgments over past ages, which happen to work to a completely different standard of behavior. You mentioned Andrew Roberts. Andrew is a brilliant scholar. I like him a lot. He's a great man. and a brilliant historian.

In the book of his, I suppose, that springs to mind as you're speaking is not just his Napoleon, but his Churchill as well.

And Andrew is a great fan of Churchill and read a very favorable biography to Churchill, an excellent biography, which attracted a degree of criticism because it's fashionable now to say of Churchill, he was a warmonger, he was a racist, he was an imperialist, he was really saying, he's just a sort of mildly old-fashioned guy in his own day.

To call Henry V a warmonger is simply to say that he was a medieval king. Those medieval kings who shied away from pursuing warfare, like Richard II, were very, very, very seldom successful. Warfare was, per Clausewitz, politics pursued by other means. I mean, in fact, in the Middle Ages, it was one of the principal means of politics. Warfare was just part of the job.

You see the seal, the great seal of the kings applied to authenticate documents in this age. Well, what does it have? It has the king as judge on one side and as warrior on the other. Those are just the basic elements of the job. That doesn't mean that the purpose of kingship was just looking around for somebody to fight.

But it was inevitable in this age that you would have to be a military ruler. And that was that was like imbued through the entire class, the cast of aristocrats who, by definition, ruled the country, that chivalry was a knightly thing. code of behavior and chivalry informed the way you were supposed to behave. So these are just basic political norms.

And it is naive bordering on crazy for historians to look back and say, well, I don't know why they didn't seem to be more in tune with 21st century mores. The hardest thing for historians today to remember oftentimes is that we are the weird ones. Compared to most of human history, we are the weird ones. To have lived in a world, you know, I was born in 1981. My parents were born in 52.

So we're all post-war, the post-war generation, to have lived in this world that has been largely, not totally, obviously, but largely free of major conflicts which have ravaged Western Europe. So I'm putting aside the current Ukraine conflict and that. To have grown up in an age for four generations now where that hasn't happened is bizarre. It's historically almost totally unprecedented.

And it means that we can often be initially very baffled when we look at periods of European history where it's just war after war after war. Well, that was normal. That has been the history of certainly Western Europe. Forever. So it's like, it's not a great line to pursue Henry V on. Now, there are also, you know, you mentioned the misogyny. Oh, come on. This is just the Middle Ages.

It's baked into everything. He's a man of his time. Henry V was not necessarily the typical man of his time. He was unusually competent at warfare and unusually willing to pursue a fight if he saw one. He was unusually self-disciplined and uninterested in women, pretty much, with the exception of his wife, Catherine de Valois, whom he married for pretty much political duty.

He was unusually unapproachable to many of the people around him in terms of this sort of severe public demeanour. He was not a good time party king like his grandfather, Edward III, who combined warrior and party goer quite effectively. But he was by no means like a weird outlier in his own society. He was just sort of a particular kind of guy within the norms of the world.

had no business having the position i mean that's at least the way i when i got through the book that's kind of the thing i landed on where it's like he actually was meant to do this and succeeded well i think that he would have said the same thing himself you know the the meant to do it thing and a lot of it stems back to this moment when he is 16 years old and is almost killed at the battle of shrewsbury with that arrow in the face i think he comes out of that with um and again this very obvious parallel with modern politics american politics he comes out of that uh that brush with death

really, really convinced that he is, God wants him to succeed. God wants him to do this. And he says it explicitly at later times in his life. After the Battle of Agincourt, the Duke of Orléans has been captured, very dejected about that fact, young man.

Henry sort of puts his arm around his shoulder as he's being led off to a quarter of a century of captivity in England and says to him, look, it's nothing personal. He says, and Henry says, you know, I am just God's scourge. I'm just a vessel for God's work. God wants this to happen. You French are decadent. He sent me to punish you. You've got to understand this.

And when there are public triumphs to celebrate Henry's victories, it's the same thing. He's like, it's not about me. Don't celebrate me. only recognize that I am a vehicle, a vessel, the tool, the rod of God's will, and it's being executed through me. Now, that is an unusually, if you come across somebody with that psychology, they tend to be very hard to put off their track.

God wants me to do it. It's fixity. It's a certainty with which he operates. And it makes, I think for Henry, it makes a lot of this decision, political decision-making really easy because there's not much vacillation. There's like, I know what I'm here to do and I'm going to do it. So, um,

That's, yeah, but it is very unusual because human beings, which is what we're talking about, are very often conflicted and flawed and pulled in many directions by many different motivations. And it's rare to find somebody possessed of such extraordinary discipline. Discipline is one of the things that humans struggle most with. It's the basis of the Jocko Willick podcast.

I mean, you know, we all really struggle to do the thing. But Henry is a guy who does the thing.

Right. I mean, so that the... Basic principles, we're talking about a dynasty that today we call the Plantagenet dynasty. They had been in power in England since 1154, Henry II, and there had been a sort of England being part of an empire, for want of a better word, which included parts of France as well and claims over Ireland and Scotland and such.

Oh, yeah. Oftentimes I found it does sound a lot like Jocko. There's two occasions spring to mind. There are lots of different reports of what Henry says before the Battle of Agincourt, how to rouse his troops. Probably he says a bunch of different things because you can't address the whole army in one go. Then we have Shakespeare, you know, the Great St. Crispin's Day speech.

The one that sounds most like Henry, if you read the other things that he dictated in his own words, is an account from a London Chronicle which says all he said before the Battle of Agincourt was, fellas, let's go. There's three words. That's the motivational speech. And then there's another occasion, quite similar actually. It's 1419 after the Ciduron.

a horrible, horrible winter siege which has gone on for six months. Henry has starved the inhabitants of Rome into submission.

There have been occasions where the citizens of Rome have chucked out useless mouths, quote unquote, women, children, the elderly, people who can't fight but are consuming food and resources, throwing them out of the city, but the English won't allow them through the siege lines, so they're starving in the ditch, the moat, let's say, the dry ditch that surrounds the city of Rome.

And when the citizens of Rouen decide that they're going to capitulate, they're going to give up, they send messengers to Henry to negotiate peace. And top of their list of sort of immediate things they want to this peace deal is soccer, is help for the starving people in the ditch around Rouen.

They say, first, before we do anything else, please, like humanitarian aid, get some help to these poor people starving in the ditch. And Henry just looks at them and says, fellas, who put them there? This is on you. Don't come to me with your whiny bullshit. So he has this cast iron determination. And sometimes there's no sugarcoating. It's absolutely brutal.

But he's always coming back to discipline, focus, purpose, execute on what you say you're going to do.

which worked which ended up working despite it scared me a little bit on like the first couple pages yeah well i didn't tell my editors i was doing it until i just handed the book in and uh because i knew they'd say don't approach the book in this particular way it's gonna fit i just had this deep instinct that this was the way to tell the story and that there was a way to i mean henry is an a cold character he can and he can be hard to create empathy with but i just had this sense of

i'd come up with a way of telling this historical story that wouldn't throw the chronology out of shape that would just keep that would like launch you into the story and just keep you there like from start to finish and listen this is like the 15th book i've written and this is for me like a lot of the business of history communication whether it's you know podcasts like this or on television or whatever it might be on the page is

let's take this material from the past, which is so full of not of entertainment, but also of lessons that we can sort of meditate on the world today. And let's make it feel as exciting as the best HBO kind of series or Netflix show or whatever it is. That's my kind of calling. And it gives me great satisfaction, not only to do it, but to hear readers like yourself appreciating it.

By the time we get to the late 14th century, there's been a pretty lineal descent of kings, actually. In the 14th century, a great king, Edward III, great by the acknowledgement of the people of his day and thereafter, rules England, wins lots of victories in the wars against France, has a lot of children. Edward III dies after a 50-year reign in 1377 and is succeeded by his grandson, Richard II.

So thank you for that.

Richard II is the eldest son of the eldest son of Edward III. The missing link, therefore, is Richard II's father, known to history as the Black Prince, a great warrior, but died before Edward III. So in 1377, both Edward III, his son, the Black Prince, die, and they leave as king, therefore, a young boy for Richard II, who's 10 years old at the time that he inherits the throne.

10 years old is not a great time to become a king. In some ways, it's much worse than any other age to become a king because you're entering the cusp of adolescence. There will be times in the Middle Ages in many kingdoms where inheritance falls on a baby, completely incapable of even understanding the job, let alone performing it.

And oftentimes that's okay because you have ruling councils who rule in the name of that child. The child won't get involved. Having a boy of 10 upwards to 18 on the throne is a real problem because they have some understanding, some political will, but they're also constrained by the law not to be able to fully exercise their office. So it's a very awkward period.

Richard II also grows up knowing no example of kingship because he's only 10 when his grandfather dies because he never sees his father rule.

he has no model for what kingship looks like he's told in 1377 when he comes to the throne he's the messiah basically he's going to come and save england the last years of his grandfather edward iii's reign have been years of corruption of decay of losses in the war of edwards the king then sliding into age-related dementia senility so richard's told that he's he's going to save the kingdom

Well, that's also a dangerous thing to tell a child. You don't really want to tell a child that they're the messiah. That's parenting 101 as well as like politics 101. But he grows up sort of imbued with this sense and is then doubly outraged at all moments in his reign thereafter when he's thwarted or stymied because he's like, I thought I was the messiah.

I thought I was the God-given savior of this country. And now you're telling me I can't do X. Okay, so Richard II, despite this, grows up. His reign consists of a number of crises. There's a populist rebellion in 1381 known as the Peasants' Revolt. There is a phase of political resistance of various lords in his realm trying to corral, constrain him, force him to rule properly.

That's in the late 1380s. And by the time we get to the late 1390s, Richard has proven himself time and time again to be a complete failure as a king. He's got a cousin. His first cousin is called Henry Bolingbroke. Henry is also a grandson of the great King Edward III via his father called John of Gaunt. And they're of approximately the same age.

They grew up parallel lives, but their characters are very different and their paths through life are very different. But there comes a crisis in 1390, 789, where Richard the King accuses his cousin, Henry Bolingbroke, of treachery and treason effectively, forces him to fight a duel against another lord, banishes him from the kingdom and takes away all his lands.

That provokes Henry Bolingbroke, the cousin, into a rebellion, gathers some forces in France, comes back and deposes Richard II. By now, the hero of our story, a second Henry, to be Henry V, has been born. And so his experience as a young child is also not seeing functional kingship. It's seeing his first cousin once removed, Richard II, making a complete balls-up of being king.

And it's seeing his father struggling to come to terms with that and then rebelling. So cut to 1400, Richard's been kicked off the throne and murdered. Henry Bolingbroke is King Henry IV, and his eldest son, to be King Henry V, is now the next in line to the throne. It's much easier if I draw you a family tree on paper. I realize I'm speaking this out loud, but that's the nuts and bolts.

Yeah. So Henry IV, Henry Bolingbroke, becomes Henry IV in 1399-1400, this revolution, and is then a very difficult situation, as any usurper king always is. You take the throne, you're automatically reliant on...

generally a small group of people who've helped you do it to expect undue rewards king makers um and it's it's always a difficult situation so henry the fourth becomes king he's got four sons henry thomas uh john and humphrey and the eldest three of those he starts deploying quite quickly as his kind of lieutenant because the theory is you could

You might not be able to trust many people in this country he's taken over, but he's going to be able to trust his family. These boys are also teenagers, and they're given a lot of responsibility as a means of military and political training. Henry, to be Henry V, the eldest, is made Prince of Wales. That's still typically the title that's given to the male heir to the now British, crown.

And he sent off to Wales at the age of about 13 to deal with the rebellion of a Welsh kind of firebrand rabble-rouser known as Owain Glyndwr, or Owen Glyndwr in Shakespeare. Glyndwr has claimed that he is the native rightful Prince of Wales, and he's raised the whole of that principality in rebellion against English rule. He's in contact with France, who are England's foreign enemies.

He's in contact with would-be rebels within the Kingdom of England, Scotland, and so on. Young Henry is sent to cut his teeth as a military commander with mentors, with people to help him who are experienced soldiers, but he's got to learn on the job. Fortunately, he takes to this task with a high degree of enthusiasm.

There's a great letter, which I quote in the book, which he writes about the age of 15 to his father. Young Henry is in Wales. Henry IV, the king, is in London. And young Henry, 15 years old, writes back to report what's been going on with Englander. And it's in French, and I'll paraphrase it into English. He says, dear dad, hope all's well. You sent me here to deal with this Englander.

Well, the guy's been putting it around that he wants a fight. So I went out looking for him to have this fight he says he wants. I couldn't find him anywhere, so I went around his house. He wasn't in, so I burned it down. And then I went round his other house, and he wasn't there either.

But one of his friends was and begged me to spare his life and offered me all this money, so I cut his head off. Hope was well, praise be to God, lots of love, Henry. It's astonishing. And I mean, yeah, of course I'm paraphrasing, but I'm not really paraphrasing that much.

I mean, this letter just like bursts with kind of youthful bravado, with brio, with just genuine love and enthusiasm for the business of warfare. So here... the Lancastrian family, as we call Henry IV and his kids, have lucked out effectively because this boy, to be Henry V, absolutely loves war. He really, really takes to it. And he's just got an innate taste for it.

And in the early 15th century, that's a good thing in your ruler. It's not necessarily the total skill set we always want today, but then this is good. It's good news.

yeah look he has this really really intense on the job training as prince of wales and uh it serves him in very good stead you know from age 13 through 18 19 20 he learns the ropes and you mentioned his injury we should say in 1403 when he's 16 he fights this battle he takes an arrow in the face uh the arrowhead gets lodged in the back of in the back of his skull he has to have

major surgery to remove it, and he's incredibly lucky to survive. But he's hardened, he's toughened in war. He then, you know, as you rightly say, his father becomes very ill. From 1406 onwards, Henry IV is suffering from a series of different interconnected maladies. And his health is very poor, but it takes a long time, it takes seven years effectively to die.

So, yeah, you get to this point, 1410, 1112, where Henry dies. to be Henry V, Henry, Prince of Wales, is really doing the job of king. He's held it down militarily. He's effectively president of his father's council. He's taking a lot of the major decisions with regard to domestic and foreign policy. But he's not the king. And he makes a serious error by basically asking his father to abdicate.

And he's got a lot of support in making this request, but it is a very stupid thing to do because the one lesson of his father's reign is it is so difficult to rule as king if you haven't inherited the throne fair and square. And there should be no ambiguity about that. And Henry V kind of misses this, tries to take the throne before his time.