Chloe Shih
👤 PersonPodcast Appearances
I kind of get into this term that I call underappreciated overachievers.
We're these like super high competent people who just want to do a good job and like prove that they're good and trustworthy.
They get overlooked a lot and then their efforts just are taken for granted or...
They don't get rewarded and it builds this tension, this resentment, this feeling invisible, this when I finally ask for what I want after years of committing loyalty to company, manager, whatever.
They don't get it because this whole time they weren't even seen as someone of that much value and importance.
So I feel it's a common story.
Yeah, that's what I call it.
I was VP and she wasn't processing the paperwork.
And I started processing the paperwork because I was like, the deadlines are here.
And then I submitted it and I tell the team, OK, I submitted it.
career and navigating life transitions.
And then I would get like a flurry of texts in capital and all caps saying, why the fuck did you submit it?
You think you have power or something?
You think you're the president?
Like kind of like a power trip.
And then I think one of my classes conflicted with dance practice time.
Only every other whatever.
And then she yelled at me in front of, like, the other board members and was like, we have policy and you can't – you're out.
A lot of reflections, a lot of like deep questions, a lot of introspection.
You're out of the team.
And she kicked me out.
And then I was like, okay, that was so –
and so aggressive.
And she wanted me to be her VP.
So it was just a lot of psycho behavior.
I'm just like, Oh, my God, that's crazy.
And then I think another parallel is I was the next president of CU informs, which is Columbia University, the Institute of Management Sciences, like the pre professional program for my major.
And the previous guy,
was also extremely threatened by me and would send me texts, like, paragraphs of all caps.
Like, you're kind of, like, you're a piece of shit.
Like, you think you know everything, blah, blah, blah.
Like, you know nothing.
It's like, you're a child.
You're immature.
Like, a lot of that stuff, when I try to be like, okay, we need to get this done.
We need to build this.
So I think that happened a lot.
I'm a lot on LinkedIn actually.
I think that was a common theme that went into my career too.
Because I think I was, if I had to analyze it, like just be like, Oh, what's happening there?
I think I was perceived as someone who can make them look good, like a support character.
Big LinkedIn creator.
And when I started to have my own opinions, then be like, Whoa, whoa, stay in your lane.
Like you're not, you're not a main character, like shut down.
I think I'm an extremely loyal and trustworthy, competent person.
And then I was doing YouTube long form vlogs and then
Like my word, I stick to my word.
If I say I'm going to be there, I'm going to be there.
I'm going to move mountains to be there.
So I think I was always the group project person who will take care of everything at the end.
Like if I'm on your team, you know that you're going to get an A because I will stay up all night to make sure that's done and everyone's prepared.
So I think that...
was a good trait.
But I was just confused why I was getting bullied so much.
And I think maybe that energy attracted people who were like, I can take advantage of that.
And then I was extremely not discerning on
in the last year, mostly on short form Instagram reels type of thing.
around, like, who deserves that type of support.
And, like, I play support very well.
Like, I want to do everything good for this organization, whatever.
So that's a story in my head.
I don't know, but that's a story in my head.
We can if it's interesting.
I feel like it's so buried.
We can probably go on many topics and then we can decide.
Once upon a time I did coworking on Twitch.
Sometimes, yeah.
So it just worked on Twitch.
Co-working, like, co-working streams.
I'll try to go into career when I transitioned out of that, when I was,
at google and at startup i think i still had this like weird relationship with authority fakers because i was like oh my god i'm a i'm a little tiny um young person in the world and everyone knows more than me but we work in tech and tech evolves so fast we're always working with new
communities, new processes, new everything.
And so actually the senior people are not always the most up to date.
So then I think I learned that pretty quickly.
Like sometimes people fall into these patterns of life and they don't grow beyond it.
Yeah, I do, like, Pomodoro sessions, like, 45 minutes of work with Lo-Fi beats, 10 minutes of chat chat.
And then as someone with fresh eyes, you see it and you're like, oh my God, this is so broken.
but there's like this weird culture of you're not allowed to, if you speak up about it, like you're not in the right place of power to do that.
And you're, you don't have that level quite yet.
And it's very hard to make movement happen.
And sometimes you stick into your lane because that is the easiest thing to do.
At Google, I felt like I just had no power to change anything because I was so low level.
I was like extraordinarily entry level.
So it's like, okay, I'm not going to grow a lot.
And then when I went to the startup, I poured all of my heart into everything.
That was my full identity.
Like, you know, tech people, our identity is our career.
If we don't have our career down right, there's nothing else going for us.
Like that is where we live.
We live and breathe Silicon Valley success headlines and career, TC, everything.
Oh, total compensation.
We just care about how much money we make.
the startup was amazing in year one because we were the whole problem that we were trying to solve is like trying to make a live streaming community that's actually um positive and safe for the future of the youth it's like oh live streaming at the time was very not moderated it was um 2017 and it was like awful and so we wanted to make a live streaming platform for gaming that
we would be proud that our children are on.
So it started really wholesome.
And then it evolved into something way more mainstream after we raised, we had like our series B with Andreessen Horowitz and Greylock Partners at 47 mil.
And then a year, two years after that, we raised another 100 mil from 21st Century Fox.
And that was when it attracted a lot of like eyeballs in the media.
And it brought in probably a lot of personalities that were like, oh my God, there's money now.
There's like for the money and for the fame.
And we had celebrities.
And so I think that's when culture really changed that scale from 25 people to 50 to 100.
And, you know, it's not my place to like determine the direction of a company.
I'm not C-suite.
But I felt the problem is I gave my entire day.
I actually like shat blood when I was there working because I was there was so many things to do as one person.
And I didn't.
My ads are Chloe Xi, Chloe.Xi on Instagram, Chloe Xi on TikTok, YouTube, LinkedIn, some combination.
I took on, I was in the business development team.
So there's like marketing, there's operations, there's programming, there's content, there's flying up and down from San Francisco to LA to close contracts, to work with partners, to be on set, to produce shows, to get insights reports in, to tell product this, to tell execs that, there's board meetings and I had to turn around decks overnight.
And then I had very little context.
So I became someone who was, I believe, extremely dependent.
Like if Chloe was on your team, you knew it would get done.
And apparently that's not the norm.
And so what ended up happening was I had a lot of execs playing, like,
These Game of Thrones games with each other trying to get each other dethroned or fired so that they can rise their ranks and get more reports.
Like, I don't know.
It's like a weird power play.
That I am dependable?
It was because people were getting fired and then there's like little mini coups happening where people would be like talking about, oh, this person's so incompetent, like they shouldn't have that role.
Like there were all these closed doors conversations and you just know who's on whose team and that if you pick the right exec, you would rise the ranks.
it was just so bizarre.
It wasn't a secret.
People were out to get each other.
They were not discreet about it.
And I think I just was too naive.
And I was like, oh, everyone's just trying to build a great company.
We are here to build a great startup.
And then the consequence of that was
being approached by all these execs to make them look really good and turn things around for them.
And then I started to realize, oh, these reports conflict with each other.
They're going against each other, and only one of these will win.
Yeah, S-H-I-H.
But I'm on both teams.
I'm just like, I see what's kind of happening.
I had to take – it got so bad to the point where, ooh, that was probably the lowest point of my career, which is I –
It means it's Shi in Chinese.
I started to shake at work, and I stopped talking, I think.
There were a lot of things that were happening.
Let me try to remember.
It's been so long.
I got yelled at once upon a time.
It means stone.
I worked really hard, okay?
And then I think promotions were coming.
I hadn't got promoted in two and a half, two years.
So I was the one individual contributor that...
move the most company metrics for one of our north star metrics and then uh this other guy who who only impacted less than one percent of the company metrics and who only worked there for six months and was a white man he got promoted because he was like you know tight with some executive
So I am stone.
on the sports side, and they would talk about sports, and I'm like, I don't know anything about sports, and I'd been there for years, and so when I brought it up to my manager, I was like, hey, I wanted to ask if
Am I going to go for promotion?
Like, am I going to, are you going to help me get promoted in this next cycle?
And then it was like a tough day at the company and she yelled at me and she was like, I can't believe you're bringing this up, like on the phone, just yelling at me.
Like, I can't believe you're bringing this up.
You're so selfish, so immature.
Like you think, you think you're going to get promoted?
Like you're, you're about to take vacation.
And how can I promote someone who's going to take vacation?
I was, mind you, it's my first vacation in those two years.
So, uh, and I already did all of these big projects.
And so this is like 20 minutes of her railing on me and then I was like, okay, thank you And I turned like I hung up and then I was in the phone booth and then I went to the restroom I cried I walked out HR was there like some of the person who worked HR and I told HR like like we were friends then too and told her what happened and she was like She probably had a bad day and I'm like, okay cool I'm just gonna go home now and cry on my way home on my one hour hour and a half commute home in the rain and
Well, today we're talking about navigating job uncertainty, Dr. K. Okay, cool.
Um, so that happened.
Uh, yeah, I remember that for sure.
And then I tried to change teams.
I got yelled at for that too.
Like, like, uh, you're not a loyal person.
I was in BD partnerships and then I was like, oh, I really love products.
I want to go into product management.
And I've gotten all this feedback from creators and streamers.
And like, no matter how hard I sold, I like internally, I didn't say it's out loud.
No matter how hard I sold, I felt that we were bottlenecked by the product.
I would really love to work with designers and engineers to build that, build it for our customers, our users.
Um, but then there was not a lot of head count for that role.
And I was like, okay, let's figure out what path forward.
So I finally brought it up to my manager.
You know, I don't, I don't think BD is for me.
This is my second job out of college.
Like, I don't, I don't know what I want yet.
Um, and then she called me a coward.
She was like, she was like, you're, you're a coward, Chloe.
Like you, you think you only want to do things that you think you will be successful in and you're afraid.
And that's why you want to change.
And I'm like, okay, that's crazy.
And then I just, I think when that happened, I was not prepared.
I was really young.
I just stared and she was on the floor, like spaced out, like trying to hold back tears.
And then she's like, look into my eyes, look into my eyes.
Oh, so my eyes were on the floor.
And she was looking at me.
We're standing.
Look, I'm looking on the floor.
Yes, of course.
She's like, look into my eyes, look into my eyes right now.
And then I like slowly have to look into her eyes.
And yeah, I mean, that's what happened.
And then, um, all the shaking started happening.
I was quiet.
I remember I didn't talk for like a whole week.
I only spoke when spoken to, just when in and out.
Yeah, it was tough, dude.
Yeah, I remember.
That was really hard.
I think that what was the worst... I ended up breaking down in the CEO's office.
I had a meeting with him set up to tell him I wanted to take mental health leave.
He we went in and I just completely broke down and he was like supportive in that moment.
And then I took my mental health leave and I had to do I had to rebuild my confidence again, because remember, like my entire identity is on my career and that's shattered into pieces.
Grew up in L.A.
And now I have to go find who I am outside of that.
Because I have lost this person, this like success path, this image of what I wanted.
So I went to Taiwan and I try to get like do the hundred rejections thing to regain confidence.
County, 66 area, what up?
Like kind of get rejected a hundred times so that you feel more confident about yourself.
Like just ask for random things from strangers.
That's actually really hard because I'm such a doormat of a person.
I'm just like, damn, I'm a people pleaser.
Uh, and then it came back and then did that help?
I think to an extent, but I honestly think that it's a, it's a, it's an exercise.
Like it's a tool that you can go to when you don't have something better.
But I think what ultimately helps in my confidence and self-worth was like more introspection instead of trying to do crazy things and realizing the consequences aren't that crazy.
It was more about inside than out.
I just ate a lot of Asian food.
I think that,
When I came back, I heard... People were getting fired left and right, by the way.
So it's like if you said something, then people got fired.
People were leaving.
So people were dropping like flies.
The writing was on the wall.
interviewed a lot at the time and I was like when I get my offer I'm freaking dipping and I finally got an offer from Facebook and then I put in my two weeks and they didn't want me to come back in which is kind of expected for a lot of companies these days but it's like oh you you pour your heart and soul into this company and then you're out you're gone like they don't even want you to come in
Taiwanese family.
Second gen, they moved over when they were 27 and had to 26, had me as a baby.
And I heard that they were going to use me as a scapegoat for their culture problems and why people were leaving, like as the report for, I don't know, the board or something.
Like that was the rumor on the street.
And so thankfully I, well, I don't know, maybe I should have been fired so I can get severance, but I already put my two weeks in at that time.
So that was really rough.
Because attrition was really bad.
So people were just leaving and I guess results are not there.
And then hiring was not happening.
So there was something, you know, if you're from that, what's happening with attrition rates?
Like, how do you explain that?
I think I was the scapegoat on like,
Oh, because Chloe's so toxic.
She's the problem.
She's the one who's creating such a horrible culture for everyone.
And I was like, I've been gone for the last month.
Wait, I didn't even take mental health leave.
And then I went to school in Claremont Colleges and Columbia University studying English.
I took, I used my PTO.
I totally forgot.
So that's different.
I was gone for two and a half weeks.
That's what I heard.
But I don't know.
So that happened.
I think I had one dream, you know, one dream was to make it in tech and career and make money and pay for a nice high rise apartment and have like a tech crunch headline on myself.
That's a great question.
feel like it came in waves i don't think i knew much about tech in college and then it wasn't until i moved over to san francisco and you go to parties and you you read headlines and like oh this this this old classmate of mine became founded a startup that raised 10 million whatever whatever and you're like whoa that's that's cool that that's considered the cool thing to do to be a tech founder so you would
I would – my goal was I'm going to be a tech founder, and there's not a lot of women who are founders, so I'm going to do that.
And I did a lot of leadership in college, so I was like, okay, this is so cool.
I read a bunch of tech books, leadership books, business books.
First pre-med, then engineering.
Yeah, that was my whole being, morning to night, weekends, going to networking events, working extras on Sundays, and then –
Just trying my best to make it in tech, yeah.
I think it was gradually over time.
I think that's totally a hard question for every person.
I think at the time, it probably was making six figures because I hadn't hit that yet.
And then I went to San Francisco for all of my tech career.
I wanted to be a product manager because I felt that product managers had so much power in terms of strategic direction.
Whereas when I was in BD at the company, you were support, like you couldn't do much.
You had to wait for product.
So I really wanted to be at like, I don't know, position of power.
And engineers were always, always on a pedestal.
Started off at Google, not doing too much.
So that was a path of success.
But I just knew I wasn't an engineer type for software engineering.
um yeah so i think success was becoming this product manager like short term let's be this product manager make six figures be at a fang company so one of the big tech companies and i've made it that was a short-term goal okay so did you feel like you had made it when you ended up at google or meta or not google because i was in operations and i they treated you pretty poorly like
When we were at Google, we kind of used this term second class citizen.
If you're not in product engineering, data science, like there was an engineer.
And then was like, what the hell?
I don't think they treated me directly this way, but we coordinated their schedules essentially for interviews.
What is this?
And I think one of my coworkers was trying to coordinate for a Google engineer.
And then the Google engineer was like, well, I actually have real work to do.
Went to a live streaming startup, Twitch competitor called Caffeine.
So you can't schedule that.
And then we're like, okay, our jobs are so dumb.
Like, we're no one.
We're no one.
We are treated like nothing there.
So I think that was very fascinating to witness.
how different functions of each department, how the role in which they play at tech companies, how people perceive us.
Like, even though we studied the same, we were in the same department, I didn't functionally become an engineer.
And I went into people operations because I thought I was a people person.
And then to be treated so differently and to see like my classmates rise the ranks and make 120K base salary right out of college and still complain about how little they make.
So I have a lot of crossover with a lot of the Twitch streaming world and did a lot of partnerships then.
And I'm just sitting there like at 50, whatever.
And it was like, man,
That's weird.
I did not know the game.
I did not understand it.
So your question is, did you think I made it?
When I went to TikTok, I finally became a product manager.
I've been trying to transition for two, three years at that point.
One of the most gatekept careers in tech ever.
It was such a struggle and I prepped so hard.
But once I joined that, I was like, oh, I finally on paper made it.
And so I'm going to try hard here.
um uh i mean i had a good time at meta facebook i just wasn't functionally a product manager i was in product operations so support for pm product teams and um i don't have anything interesting to say i was on facebook groups i had it's a great like i i really liked it there it was just i couldn't transition into the pm role easily because internal mobility is not an easy thing to do um
And then that became really toxic.
Sometimes it's easier to come from an outside company in than it is to transition inside.
There's all these like internal policies.
There's headcount.
So when TikTok reached out, I went through the interview process.
It was a real sweaty process.
And then I got the offer and I was like, oh, my God.
The interviews were pretty hard.
And then went over to Facebook meta, Facebook at the time, Facebook groups, and then TikTok and then Discord.
Well, honestly, one of them was in Chinese.
Like I wrote on my resume, I was bilingual.
And then like an hour before the interview, they're like, hey, are you cool with this interview being in Chinese?
Because TikTok is a Chinese company like ByteDance.
And I was like...
called my dad i'm like dad what is this word in chinese i was i was sweating through my pits it was it was ridiculous but i somehow passed and i don't know blocked out so so one one of your interviews was in chinese that's that's wild yeah she was like okay she can kind of listen like understand some english but she'll probably speak in chinese so it'll be half and half interesting what what what were the other interviews like
They were in English with mostly U.S.
because I was working in trust and safety product and a lot of them were already hired.
So I like met with the senior director of trust and safety and then directors of specific verticals and then my man, my potential hiring manager from China and HR.
It was crazy.
I think I'm kind of known for the person who quit TikTok.
I think that was like my first wave of publicity.
Like I think a lot of press article or a lot of media covered TikTok.
TikTok and how people were leaving and whatever toxic culture I think for me the messaging I had was actually it was a Chinese company and it was global and it had crazy hours and it just wasn't sustainable for me if I wanted a family like we would wake up 7 a.m our firm meetings with the UK and we had U.S.
And then that came to January last year, layoff.
meetings throughout 10 to 6 and then when 7 p.m 8 p.m 9 p.m hit that's when meetings in China would happen and
And then engineers don't start until 11 a.m.
local time in China.
So that's really late U.S.
Then I moved back down to LA, I think four years, five years ago, four or five years ago.
So I only have – I'd be working until midnight regularly.
And then I – that was when I had started having sleep issues because I would work until I'd fall asleep.
And then I wouldn't be able to fall asleep.
And then I think for me as an Asian woman –
an East Asian woman on a fully Chinese team.
They didn't understand how to work with me.
I had two Chinese male managers, like, report, report.
And, like, I think there was a weird dynamic where you're very much in your...
In your ranks, you don't really question authority.
But I am so I question authority so much.
And so when I'm so outspoken, they get confused.
And they're like, you can't say that.
I'm like, I don't know why I can't say that.
Like they would say, make this report.
And I'm just like, why?
This doesn't make sense.
Like what, this feature doesn't quite make sense.
Like, what are we doing here?
What are we ultimately trying to, to, to build here?
And we wouldn't have this conversation.
It'd be like a top down.
You got to get this done, get this feature done, get spec this out.
So I think that was like confusing, but I, I didn't process it as confusing.
I was like, oh, this is, I'm just raising questions like a good old product manager would.
So I think there was like a lot of tension there.
And then there were moments of, there's a lot of face in, you know, Chinese culture where image is really important.
Like you have to look like you know you're doing, you know what you're talking about.
And so I think there was a question that when I went to product review, someone like asked me a question and I was like, oh, that's a really good question.
I don't have an answer for you, but I can look into that.
I got feedback from one of the male managers and he was like, you can't say stuff like that.
You look junior.
And I'm just like,
I thought these product reviews were to help us find holes in our proposal and create conversation, not to look like we have the entire report done and review done and spec done.
It's a good system so we can catch each other and we can succeed.
So I think those dynamics were like,
oh i don't fit the company culture for leadership here um this was been really fun but i knew it wasn't long term okay so are so i mean it sounds so common sense like some of the stuff that you're saying like yeah it's so different like we're it's we're so westernized it's it's not it's it's not a it's not a western company
I am in my 30s.
Oh, it was pre-med and then engineering.
I think I'll share another story.
It's not like super related, but I've always been pretty bubbly, like facing externally.
I'm always been pretty expressive with my facial expressions.
But then when I was more in tech in the startup period, I think I was just too like happy.
I was industrial engineering and operations research.
of a person like I looked too happy and then I tried to propose and people couldn't take me seriously and I was like oh okay um I wonder why it's because I look so young I look so I look too naive and like um too junior and then
I had a coworker confront me.
We had a lot of, I don't know.
It was like a weird dynamic where I think eventually he had a crush on me, but also like, didn't want to talk to me anymore because he was like getting weird about it.
It was so, he was like, you know, I haven't been coming to the office and you know why.
And I'm like, no, like, it's like, yeah, because you've been on my mind.
And I'm like, okay, the fuck?
and then he was like you know i i stuck up for you in front of this executive i committed career suicide for you and i'm not doing that anymore and i'm just like i never asked you you freak um so there's a lot of weird advances in the tech i don't know as a girl like you just just get some strange interactions that you don't ask for uh and then he was like maybe you don't get what you want because you're too bubbly and you know what in silicon valley
you can't be bubbly and you're not a leader and you need to be stone cold, like cold hearted, whatever, to be a leader.
And that's what that person is, this executive.
And that's not you.
You need to change.
And I'm like, fuck.
And then he left, went on the Cal train and it's a Friday night at 8 p.m.
and I'm crying in the phone booth.
Like, I don't know.
Do you not have a cell phone?
You know how like meeting rooms
Phone booths are like meeting rooms for calls.
It's a meeting room.
A smaller meeting room than an actual meeting room.
It has one or two chairs.
Usually one chair for the phone booth.
Two chairs don't get cozy.
So that was part of it.
And I think it was like,
This grappling this identity of should I leave old Chloe and then be this like a no expression.
We're here for business type Chloe.
Is that what Silicon Valley wants me to be?
I just didn't know where I was.
I think I always struggled with that throughout my entire tech career.
I mean, yeah, but I feel like they're not.
So one time I was working at a social club called Modernist and that's like a tech founder venture capital thing where I was like doing front desk as checking in people.
I was a really dumb kid.
Like that was my night shift after Facebook work.
And I went on the Muni.
I finished my shift.
It was, like, 10 p.m.
I go on the Muni from, like, the Salesforce Tower going back home to Japantown.
And it's the end station, so I'm sitting there on the Muni.
Like I, I almost like, uh, had I be held back a year in elementary school.
I'm all alone.
I have my red hair.
I had red hair then.
Then this man comes in, and out of the entire goddamn bus, he sits next to me.
And I'm like, what the fuck is happening?
And then he's like, oh, my God, you're so beautiful.
And I'm just like, I want to...
Like, I want to leave right now.
I'm so unsafe.
And then I have my AirPods on and I'm like, oh, thank you.
And I put it back on.
He was like, he starts talking to me.
He's like, what's a girl like you doing out here at 10 p.m.?
And I'm like, oh, I just finished work.
And he was like, oh, where do you work at?
Like, it's so late.
And I'm like, I didn't want to tell him.
So I was like, I work at a restaurant, whatever.
And he's like, oh, a restaurant.
Like, are you a hostess?
And I'm like, you know what?
Like, it's my side thing.
I work in tech, actually.
Like I was, my consciousness was not there.
And he's like, oh, well, I work at a tech at a little company called Instagram.
And I'm just like, fuck me, dude.
This is so annoying.
And he was like, yeah, I'm a software engineer.
I make so much money.
And like, I'm just I work on this.
And I'm like, OK, cool.
I work at Facebook.
And then he's like, oh, what's your workplace?
Um, I, what does that mean?
Let me add you.
And I'm just like, no, no, please.
How old is this dude?
I don't know.
I have no idea.
I don't know how old people are.
No, he's older.
He was definitely older.
I don't know.
He was just disheveled.
I don't know, dude.
I was just trying to like not talk to him.
I was listening to my audio book.
I was on my, like, I want to learn books.
And then he has me on Facebook and he sends me messages and I'm like, and then I get off a station early because I was scared he would follow me home.
I was like, I don't know.
And then, and then I like run home.
I'm like, I'm start running with my big ass backpack.
You know, I'm just like running home.
Like, I hope I don't die on these streets at 11 p.m.
Um, and then the next day I got a message from him.
He's like, oh, I'm at Menlo Park.
I heard I was really dumb in elementary school and that the teachers were all really concerned.
Where are you?
And I'm like, I'm so scared right now.
I tell my manager and, and then I don't respond.
He was like, haha, you're ghosting me now.
We should go out to lunch sometime.
And I'm just like on company chat, I have screenshots.
And then, um, I don't know.
That was just like weird as shit.
And then we, I eventually told my manager I'm not coming to work.
I'm too scared.
Oh, he was so supportive.
My manager was fantastic.
He was angry, actually.
He was like to tell me, I'm going to go.
He was like, I'm going to protect you.
So I loved him a lot.
Like I wasn't paying attention.
Unfortunately.
And then I just barely made it in my grade.
I think that growing up, my parents were just really, really busy with their own small business.
instagram yes no we've definitely had some friends who um exhibit similar behavior and we are nervous and it takes a support system it takes like friends calling you out and it's scary when you're in that mindset because like i don't know my brothers are also a little socially inept so i feel like oh i have to help socialize them and call it out and then try to help normalize that's awesome to be uncomfortable and awkward and yeah yourself
And it was me and my two younger brothers.
yeah I try I try and I try to call things out if I see like whoa dude what the hell that was not cool but I try to make it a light situation because I think most people just don't know they're like in their heads and they just don't know and that's and it doesn't have to be that deep but it can be a two-way conversation um yeah I've been I mean I went to engineering school uh I've been around yeah some some weird culture but I think everyone's endearing in their own way
And then we would be kind of home alone all the time.
I am I'm very I'm very fascinated by my my.
Oh, my God, myself.
That's such a weird thing to say.
But I realize I don't have that much social anxiety when it comes to like interacting with new people.
And I am I'm just like, oh, how do I help make it make it easier for other people to enjoy their time right now?
And we would just have to figure out our food, get home ourselves, or stay at school until we can find a way to get home.
No, because everyone tells me they have a lot of social anxiety.
I think once upon a time, I probably was going to an event where no one was there.
But I think...
I think I enjoy every aspect of a hard social situation where I'm not... I've always been invisible, so maybe that's what it was.
What do you mean?
Maybe I always felt invisible in events, and it can't be any worse than that, so we're kind of fine there.
I just think that if I go to an event alone and don't know anyone, like I was at an event last week and I didn't know anyone, it was so refreshing to be like, wow, this is cool.
I get a people watch.
I get to see how people, like I never have, I get this perspective of like being alone in a corner and just watching, having this moment of silence.
It's like kind of cool.
I get to look at all the food and like actually eat it.
And then I get it.
I don't know.
You just don't have to interact.
And then when I do interact, I'm like, this is so cool.
And then when I interact with people, I don't know what to say.
I find a growth area in myself.
Like I met this politician over the weekend and he was like, do you want to get into politics?
I'm just like, no.
And that was the conversation.
I was like, wow, I have nothing to say.
It was just like a moment of, oh, you know, I'm not, I'm not, I don't know everything.
Like, I don't know.
I'm not mature.
I said I'm not mature enough yet, but one day, one day.
And it was really simple.
I think what I was trying to highlight was there was a topic that I don't quite understand and I can't engage with him.
I think we did not have a lot.
And it kind of just ended the conversation.
And that is uncomfortable.
And that shows, oh, I don't know anything about this topic.
So I'm just going to put that card out there so that we don't try to engage in something he doesn't want to engage with, like sports.
I don't know anything about sports.
I'm just going to end it right there and let it be.
So for me, politics, I think I'm more of a consumer.
I'm trying to learn.
I grew up in an immigrant family.
I don't know anything about it, and I'm just trying to be someone who can understand how that plays and where my role is, who is who, what are the policies, how does that actually affect us.
I am not someone who's well-versed, and I would not take my recommendation.
of resources nothing it's just yeah it was like sounds like very simple like a not uncommon immigrant experience coming to the united states yeah very very typical of that and then i went to um college i went to the claremont colleges uh private school actually
I'm someone in the learning phase, yeah.
I think we can go towards the layoffs, since I know that job uncertainty was a hot topic.
Because, yeah, TikTok was crazy.
Then I joined Discord, and that was amazing.
They reached out.
I joined the team, worked on community engagement.
Yeah, so if you know, like, forum channels, that was me.
And then I worked with your Discord server, actually.
Yeah, that was cool.
And then worked on creator revenue at Discord shop.
So that was really cool.
And then at the top of last year, January is when they announced the layoffs.
I actually took mental health leave right before that.
So I was like, really needed a break from the back to back tech sprints I've been having in my career.
And that was the first time I took a leave, came back and I just like knew a layoff was coming.
And I knew I was not in a critical department of gaming, which I knew like the direction of the company.
And then I was just braced for impact and it happened.
And that was like so scary.
This is one of the scariest things that I experienced in my career.
This is all speculation, so I don't have any concrete evidence.
But I just knew that when the pandemic hit and Discord numbers were skyrocketing and we would have to continue that, I was hired to expand beyond gaming.
So what is like more...
non-gaming communities look like how do we go more mainstream how do we get non-streamers uh and then for we we built foundational things for like a year and progress to expand beyond your core is extremely slow like it's foundational for a reason you don't see immediate impact on metrics but a year is a very long time for like investors to not see any movement
um so i think if i i think if i were the founders i'd be like this is not really working this was never core to what discord was about and i would rather be really good at one thing than really bad at many or like average at many i think that's the right approach um and i and then in one of the i think all hands
the founders did mention like, it took them a long time to admit that this was like, they were trying to, they were kind of lying to themselves that they could go and expand, but that what they were passionate about, what they cared about, what they knew, what they understood, what their strengths were, were in these priorities.
And I was, once that happened, I was like, I'm out.
Like I'm literally not on those teams.
And I think I'm also at the, I was like kind of,
I just wasn't super, I didn't brand myself internally.
I think a lot of people could criticize me because I had this public, I started making content and that's a tricky place to be when you're trying to be professional and you're creating this public persona on social media, which is in the tech world at the time.
not seen as professional.
Like you are kind of cringe.
You are less, you're taking less seriously.
You're doing a weird TikTok trend.
Like that's, that's weird.
And so I think it was a subject of criticism for sure.
I got an insanely great grant and my parents really, really valued education.
And so I don't think I was like,
I knew I had to do it for myself.
I knew no more.
I'm not going to pour my heart into career, into one job because it's not me fully.
So if that pillar falls, I have these pillars to lean on and pillars do fall.
I went out on TikTok.
Actually, at TikTok, no one cared because they're – I don't know.
Everyone was just like –
their own thing.
They didn't really care.
Plus I wasn't that, I didn't have that big of a presence.
It was just starting and I was creating product management content and tech career, like interview prep.
So it was like fine, but it was also quite novel.
They were not very involved in my personal life at all.
We were very separate, like, you know, they're China and then I'm here and doing my own thing.
So they wanted me to go private too.
And it wasn't, things didn't really pick up for me until after I left TikTok.
So then at Discord, Discord found me because of my LinkedIn content.
youtube and then they're like okay you know how to build communities so you can be a product lead for community engagement um yeah i think i got more flack at discord for sure yeah what did that look like um well they never worked with someone who had a public presence and so a lot of the social media policies were written because of me
They knew I was dumb.
Yeah, well, we built them together.
I was like, hey, HR, I'm doing this.
so they're like you need private school for because if you go to public school you will not be able to study and I'm like damn I hate that I wanted to go to UCLA or something uh yeah and I was really miserable because I did not fit in my first year I went to Pitzer College one of the Claremonts um and that was just not a good like culture fit how so I was uh there were like
Is this okay?
They'd be like, let me get back to you.
No, it's not okay.
Let me review it.
Send it to me.
Okay, legal is approved, blah, blah, blah.
So it was very constricting and processed.
And I was very collaborative.
I was like, oh, my God, this press, this media person wanted to talk to me about my thing, but they actually wanted to learn about Discord.
I was caught off guard.
I'm going to report it to you as fast as I can to let you know I'm transparent.
That's like random stuff like that.
Um, I have, I was told like you, you shouldn't be posting.
So I schedule my posts.
Like I just like leave it and schedule it and whatever.
And then I was told by HR that if I post during the work day, I will be seen as someone who doesn't really work.
And I'm just like, look, I have worked so much.
Like you guys don't even understand.
But I think it's this playing optics that I had to be very mindful of.
You just become a target and there's an easy narrative to write up.
So I took a lot of night shifts, like the 7 to 11, still pinging in Discord, still posting, still writing.
just to keep that up.
And so I just had no life.
I just worked, content, work, content, work.
And that was a choice I made for sure.
And I had a good time.
It was a struggle.
I actually went viral for it because I recorded my reaction.
And unfortunately, it was that same week that the Cloudflare girl, do you know that about that time?
So this employee at Cloudflare got, I think, wrongful or it's very, I'm very confused by the whole situation.
So don't quote me on it.
But I believe what it was is she was there for like three months or so.
And they either laid her off or fired her.
And then she recorded the entire HR conversation.
That's 10 minutes that included the voice of the person.
and calling them out on why she got laid off or fired.
I'm not sure which one it was.
And that became, that was like blown up.
And then my video was posted either that week or the week after.
So it was back to back.
So mine, even though my reaction was completely neutral, it was like, oh my God, I just got laid off.
Like I didn't say it was like the bad or good.
I just said that like, oh my God, what the heck?
That's crazy.
because it was associated with her and all the press articles would link both of ours I got lumped into the narrative of the whole fuck big tech big tech bad they just want to ruin your lives and I had the most amount of press inquiries in my inbox like trying to get me to comment and I actually thought discord did a good job with the layoff process as good as they can it's not an easy thing to do so I think you know I didn't comment at all I was like just trying to
five or eight Asians in my entire class.
figure out where i was at um i did not respond to anything and i just there's a lot of off-boarding to do a lot of hr work to do a lot of paperwork a lot of figuring out your cobra your health insurance um making sure you're you have everything say goodbye tell everyone tell everyone that it's you that got impacted and they reach out to you on referrals and next steps so there's a lot to process um i remember that night when the laid off happened i posted about it it went i think it it
And then I went from like 66 majority Asians to...
Right now it's probably like 40 million views across maybe platforms on the layoff in general.
And people memed about it too.
It's like, it is what it is.
Oh, I got retweeted into the like,
the elon musk fanboy pits of hell on twitter x so that was awful i think i posted about it on x slash twitter i don't know when what it was at the time and then it got retweeted into oblivion but i don't really use twitter so i don't i didn't read anything i didn't really know i read it like for a second and people are bashing me really hard like so much hate like oh she deserved it whatever
I'm only one of eight or something.
um they hated me for having blank walls they're like wow she's so dumb she doesn't even have books in her house it was so bizarre it was so bizarre man like i did not understand it i was like come on at least if you're gonna hate at least give me something good to work with like i just can't even process uh yeah that was insane it got millions of views and i till this day i still don't i still haven't seen the post again but people have told me like wow that was awful people were fighting do you know what blind is actually
And that was like a crazy culture shock.
Blind is like this anonymous forum for tech workers to share their comp and like complain about their companies and their managers.
And I was a target of hate on Blind, which is really annoying because Blind's SEO is so good.
So whenever I like search up my articles to link from a media kit for content stuff, I see topics of me on Blind and I'm just like, oh, fuck me.
People are extremely wealthy in private school.
That's awful.
And I do my best to not click onto it.
So for the most part, I don't click onto my Reddit or my my blind posts.
I'm pretty good with that.
But the reactions are polarizing.
So I was like really shocked too.
A lot of people projected and kind of wrote the story about how shitty I was.
I had people from like my Facebook days that when I saw they just wanted to hate on me.
And they would say I did nothing at Facebook.
And I worked with her and she did this stupid happy hour thing.
And I was like, bitch, that's not even my job.
Like I was asked by the ABP to help with the happy hour for the entire Facebook groups department.
And people did not care about school either.
And you're judging me because I didn't order enough food for you.
Like I owe you.
Like that's not my job.
That is a favor that I did.
So it was just like all these crazy claims of people who didn't really didn't work with me trying to like have this piece of,
There are people who like went to college to find their partners to get married and like party.
So generally speaking, I'm assuming.
Oh, then the problem is me.
Isn't that the other option?
So I think that was confusing to me as someone who like thought I was supposed to go for academics.
And then like the financial pressure was there of like, if I don't take all my courses and do really well in pre-med and whatever,
then it's wasting my parents' time and their investment, their bet on me.
Oh, well, I will say this is just the bad part of the career.
I've also met a lot of greatness and wonderful, supportive people, sponsors, leaders, mentors.
So this is a bad narrative.
I meet a lot of people in life.
I cried a lot.
I would say I...
Unfortunately, don't think this is an uncommon story for people in my, I don't know, archetype who are like these kind looking.
gentle looking people who actually grind it out and work extraordinarily viciously we are intense about our work and rigorous and we're corporate girlies and we get shit done and we're asian girls who who we we we meet what we we do what we say and we say what we do and we don't play around and we get the job done because our our our identities kind of are tied to it um and i think that
I was like, wow, I'm so dumb.
I can't really read this book.
It is unfortunate.
I fall asleep on page one.
And, yeah, like, it is a pattern.
But I would say they're all different learnings.
Like, I've learned about this type of person, and now I know how to discern how I engage with this type of person moving forward.
And I meet a new type of villain in my life, whatever.
I just tried really hard.
Who honestly, maybe in their lives, they think they're doing the right thing.
And we don't see eye to eye.
And that's where people of different backgrounds, way of different communicating the way of our boundaries and our place of comfort.
We're just different.
But I think the story in my head is that it is just tough for...
I think because I was not talented, I had to learn how to learn for someone who's not good at learning.
people like me and when i share about it i do get a slew of i thought i was alone in this i thought the problem was me i thought blah and i'm sure you've seen that too along a lot of the stories that you share and that people who talk to you share um and so i don't want it ever to make it feel like we are the problem we are we can engage with the problem at hand and we have to learn to see the signs and i think that's what
My learnings were time and time again.
And I think now I'm so, so good at it that once I see like a sliver of toxic behavior, I like dip.
I'm like, okay, I've seen this movie play.
brute force like that I just showed up to every office hour I would sit in the front row of every class I would force myself to ask at least one question to the professor every single time I would just learn how to insert myself because I knew if I didn't I would not know how to retain anything and
Yeah, I kind of bucket into this term that I call underappreciated overachievers.
Yeah, where these like super high competent people who just want to do a good job and like prove that they're good and trustworthy, they get overlooked a lot.
And then their efforts just are taken for granted or they don't get rewarded.
And it builds this tension, this resentment, this feeling invisible, this when I finally ask for what I want after years of committing loyalty to company manager or whatever, they don't get it because this whole time they weren't even seen as someone of that much value and importance.
So I feel it's a common story.
Yeah, that's what I call it.
And if I didn't, I just I'm not a I can't really read like I'm not good at reading.
Oh, the archetype.
Um, I think the, I think a common theme is not getting credit for it.
Like you are, you are asked to do this.
So it doesn't retain for me.
You move mountains to do it in your crazy, already crazy schedule because you're a dependable person and you, someone asked you for help and you're like, I will help this person because they asked.
Cause like, isn't that what you do?
And then when it comes to the publicity about it, whether it's an internal post, whether it's at all hands, whether when there's shout outs, when there's someone posting on LinkedIn, your name's not on the list.
And I need to interact with the person to teach me.
And you're like, what?
And it's because you're not visible enough for whatever reason.
You're not a PR play for them.
I remember things like make sense.
Like I worked on like a big, big, really big product on TikTok.
And then on the press release, they wouldn't put my name on it because they would put the senior director's name on it.
And I was like, why?
He wasn't part of it at all.
And he was like, the PR was like, you are just not visible enough.
And then eventually after years, when I did like a three plus two engineering program where it's like three years in liberal arts school and then two years at an engineering institution.
Like your title is not high enough for us to put it on the article.
And I'm like,
That fucking sucks.
But I get it, I guess, because you want a headline for a director level and above, not an IC.
So that sucked.
But I think other players, like a lot of my Asian girlfriends who work in tech...
confide in me that their, I don't know, male coworkers would tag that other people who are probably in positions of more budget, more power, more roles so that they get the visibility.
And when there's less people, it's easier to see who's, you know, there's like a whole, like, you know, in research, your first primary name, secondary name, that position matters tremendously.
So it's kind of like that.
And I, I think it's really an optics play of like, if there's less people, I've done more of the work and, and,
Sorry, there's only so many people I can shout out.
Yeah, so that people feel slighted, but no one brings it up because it's awkward to bring up and be like, hey, how come my name's not on here?
One of my friends did bring it up like on a recent big tech, like one of the big players last year where she worked on a huge project and her name was not listed.
And then they were like, sorry, we just only could put the execs on.
But the ICs were posting knowing that she was the only one left out.
So that was three years in the Claremont Colleges and the two years at Columbia University, which is their sister or like partner program.
And I'm like, wow, that's some bullshit.
Oh, individual contributor.
So, yeah, when you're not, like, manager level and above, you're just no one, apparently.
One of my career learnings to my girls is always don't plan the happy hour.
No matter what they say, don't take the meeting notes.
Don't plan the happy hour.
They're going to ask you.
They're going to be like, well, you're so good at it.
When I finally got there, Columbia does not give a fuck about you as a student.
You're like just so organized.
You type so fast.
You know all the good places.
Like you should do it.
I'm like, no, fucking no.
Say no to that bullshit and let the awkwardness sit.
Let the silence sit.
And it's just not going to happen.
That's okay.
And that's not your job.
You're going to be pinned for doing that.
You're going to be pinned as a happy hour coordinator.
You're the planner.
You plan the offsides.
You get the swag.
You have to take hours of your day to do this thing that no one appreciates you for.
And you're going to resent it.
um i think people they aren't like dicks i would say they aren't extremely opinionated like they're not they don't have a public or you know public as an internal like on your team um
You're on your own.
It's a research institution.
persona of being really hot-headed and like i'm right they're usually the facilitator types i would say and they're like they're the information gatherers are the democratic ones they're like oh let's make sure everyone's feeling like where do you have your opinion shared do you have your opinion shared i think they're more of that type of role yeah the hot-headed ones are like different the hot-headed people you think they end up benefiting from that um
Then I knew how to be on my own.
i think about this how do we talk about it i think underappreciated overachievers listen they're very good at listening and to understand what the needs are and then the ones that are strongly opinionated hot-headed going in with their opinion first and then they'll be like what do we think i think this like they'll go in with their their uh take
And then that sets the tone for the meeting.
And then the first topic at hand is their opinion.
I don't think that's very apparent in this archetype.
They ask questions.
They have a lot to learn from too.
Like I have learned a lot from those people.
Like you do have to speak up.
You do have to learn to assert yourself and your opinion.
Like private liberal arts, like small liberal arts school, you're in a classroom of 30 people and the professor knows your name and then they really focus on the academics.
I think that what I learned was I used to be more of a facilitator type.
And when I became a product manager at Discord, the leadership principles are so different.
Like at Facebook, you are, or at least in the, I don't want to generalize the company so big, but within the teams that I was a part of, you're really, there's so many variables to be on top of.
You're organizing, you're facilitating, you're sharing.
But then at Discord, the teams are so much smaller.
And as a PM, they look towards you for direction.
And when you're asking for other people's opinion, they're like, oh.
you're the one who should have the opinion.
Like we're looking to you to guide us.
So I had to learn how to assert my opinion, have a strong take and be 10 steps ahead.
Whereas I thought I was here to gather everyone's and find the best one.
And that's not always the best way to do it, given timelines, resources, and how people like to build trust.
Like the building trust culture is very different.
I was like, oh, that's a fascinating thing to learn.
I think it depends on, yeah, the company.
What does it mean to build trust at a large company with lots of processes, lots of stakeholders, lots of approval stamps versus a smaller company where you're the only lead on this and you call the shots?
So how do your engineers and designers know that whatever they're working on for the next six months, their careers are...
are based on what you say, how do you build confidence in that?
Is it data driven?
Is it narrative driven?
Is it as simple as I can explain it in three sentences and you get it?
Like how do they receive that information and how do you build that trust internally to your executives?
Because they also receive information in a different way.
It's like, I'm here to teach you.
So learning the culture of how things get approved and how they understand your rationale, that's how you build your team.
And as a product manager, your team, your job,
is to make sure this team is well-resourced, well-respected and well-trusted inside the company so that we can launch and have our things approved and have the support we need to execute and know that when it reaches the users, we have put everything we can to build it the way that we believe is right for them.
But then in larger universities, because I think, yeah, you also went to Harvard and like, yeah, so you know that a lot of,
But there's all these like internal politics that you have to sift through to make sure it gets to that end state.
Yeah, so that's the process, what I've learned at Discord.
And it was really cool.
It was like a new thing for me.
I was not that person.
And I had to learn.
And that made sense.
professors are there to do research they don't care about the students and the quality of their lectures they just kind of find a lecture online someone someone else someone else's put up the slides and they look like they're looking at the slides for the first time in their lives they're like oh and then they teach on the spot yeah i remember i remember and they would say like yeah you guys should know this theorem and i'm just like what i've never learned this before
Receive that information and then code switch and then know when to bring down the level of detail, the elevation of detail and when to speak their language and know what ticks them and know what doesn't and know what are triggered topics.
Like, don't bring that up.
That's how you have to move the approvals forward.
Knowing how to play.
And letting your engineers know that you got that in the bag.
That's how they, that's your job.
Like that's how you become someone to, they want to work with.
Like this is a product manager I can trust who has our back so I can build in peace with support.
That was like fascinating.
A lot of growth.
I enjoyed it.
I think the topic of when you...
I think I get a lot of, Hey, Chloe, I got laid off too.
And I don't know what to do.
And it's the darkest time of my life.
I think that's like, but I feel like it's a big topic.
So I don't know if we can like really talk.
I, I feel my experience has been so different from everyone else's because I did have this content option.
And I think the, the critics, I guess like the feedback I've gotten was like, you're lucky you even had a fallback option, which is okay.
But a lot of people don't.
A lot of people, their entire family depended on the salary, and then they lose that.
So for me, I was so incredibly lucky to have an option and to bow out.
But that also came with working in tech for almost a decade and knowing that I've lost my identity time and time again, and then knowing that I had to build this backup plan just in case it happened again, which it did.
But also I felt a lot of shame at the beginning.
I was like, wow, fuck me.
I'm like publicly, I'm the product manager, content creator.
And now I got laid off.
How shameful is that?
How embarrassing is that?
But then I just had to like own it and be like, you know what?
This shit just happens.
Like I think the stat was 40% of Americans get laid off at least once in their entire career.
And then at that time, I think last year it was like 150,000, maybe over 150,000 employees in tech, just tech.
got laid off.
So chances are, you have been laid off or your friends have been laid off.
And I've talked to many people who are executives, founders, hiring managers, who had to do the layoff conversations.
And the process in which they have to decide who gets laid off is not always is not targeted.
Like sometimes it's like, Oh, yeah, I'm gonna frame as a layoff.
And yeah, so I think they, a lot of professors do not care.
And I'm actually like, I hate these people.
And they suck.
is an easy way for me to out but at larger at higher levels and larger companies um sometimes it kind of is random like they will put it in a spreadsheet put names randomize it like like close their eyes and then click and then this is the layoff and you can't discriminate based on a lot of factors and then you just have to say this was just the unlucky choice
So I think a lot of times it's out of your control.
And then for me, I knew I had a support network.
That day I went to go see some friends and they were congratulating me.
They were supporting me.
They were like, this is unlocking you to do so many things.
They were not incentivized to care.
And when you have that support network telling you, giving you the thoughts and the quotes in your head to tell that you will be okay that they believe in you, then that's what you can tell yourself when you're alone or that when I'm alone.
i'd be like i got all these like how can i fail when all these people really believe in me like friends in real life support me so uh i just gotta go and keep it going keep my head up yeah um i think the difference was i probably lost my identity a lot in the past in career and so i i promised myself i wouldn't that wouldn't happen again
So it's fine.
So I would say I never really cried.
I never cried about the layoff.
It didn't hit me as hard because that happened before.
But I think for a lot of people who came to me and shared DMs, they spent weeks, if not months, lying to their roommates that they're still going to work because they couldn't fathom the idea that they got laid off because that means they suck.
but it's not their fault.
In fact, it's the company's fault for mismanaging, mishiring, I don't know, miscalculating the projections.
But it is just part of this new era of work and that it's okay.
You got to just let yourself process, get your support and move on to the next.
Yeah, I think in the past when things didn't work out with my job, I think I just like blamed myself like, oh, I'm not good enough yet.
I that's my self-worth because that's all I have.
all I do is my job, my work, my career, like all I care about.
And then when I, things don't work out, I don't get the promotion.
Um, I don't get an interview.
I don't get the offer.
I get rejected.
I have to quit or I like things aren't, I don't see a path forward or I get blamed by the company, but for something that I'm like, wow, I am an
awful person i got nothing i have nothing this is this is me but um just it's not that deep and not that personal of a relationship between corporate work and your life and your worth and your value and you as a person you're so much more than this the statement of work this job description
Well, I guess, but I didn't know that was happening.
And so I had to learn that, like, how do I choose on the weekends, choose me versus choose this thing that if I finished by Monday, then that would unblock the team, whatever.
If I take on this one extra scope, then I could potentially get promoted and play this game for years.
I think I just learned how to choose me and then it made sense in my head.
Make sure I invest in my singing classes or time with my partner or yeah.
And doing content, having this identity, like if that fails and I can do this.
So I had to build that for myself across years.
and that's why when it happened i was like oh shit that's crazy that's wild and then i'm like well it happens and thank goodness i have this and i can now choose do i want to go back to that do i want to do this what what a what a what a cool place in life to choose your own adventure what a privilege what a privilege is it to choose your own adventure now
i mean you typically you should get severance i mean you should get money and that gives you a timeline um i think the first thing is like the finances like that freaks people out so just make sure you crunch your numbers and know how much how much time you actually have and then um i think the next thing is uh
just knowing that it's not your fault, even if you do get fired, like sometimes it doesn't work out and that you are not a fit that that company was not a fit for you and that's okay.
And you will find your people elsewhere.
You don't need to be a fit everywhere.
That'd be kind of crazy if the world worked that way too.
And there's, there will always be another job, another company, another opportunity, but you have to go out and open that door.
But, you know, I think the first is the emotional mental impact.
there are you do need a support system to surround yourself like you do need to tell people i think you have to tell people because if you're lying to people and they're like every day they're like oh how's work what's up with the work and you're like oh good today like you know just working on work presentation don't get me started like yeah you cannot
I blacked out I think most of university to be honest yeah I think I just like really laser focused on just surviving and I didn't really pay attention to my emotional development I think I just like wanted to get the grades and survive classes and then somehow get a job and then I did a lot of leadership too I did a lot of like club activity non-profits and
And that's insane to me.
That's insane because I think that we need to normalize that that is not your identity.
And when you,
when you couple it that way, then you start to behave in lies and deceit.
And I think people do it to protect themselves and to protect their loved ones.
But in the end, it only hurts everyone.
Like you lied to someone.
In what world, if not for a surprise birthday party or a surprise, that lying is good for your relationship with someone.
including yourself, and that when you say, hey, this shit happened, I'm feeling awful, you allow the friendships, the relationships to come and help you.
And that is a friendship.
Not when things are going well, but when things are going poorly and they reach out and they're like, no matter what, I'm here.
And whatever you need, I'm here.
You need a resume review, I'm here.
You need a referral.
You want this introduction.
I posted on LinkedIn.
And when I, I was like, you know what?
I just want to own my narrative.
before people tell me I'm a failure, I'm just going to own the narrative myself.
And I want to write it in the way that I want to be perceived and want to remember this.
It got, I got laid off.
I had a great time.
There was no negative feelings and I don't know what's next.
And I would really appreciate some help.
And after making that post, of course, I'm going to take that.
I'm going to acknowledge I did have like
tens and thousands of followers.
I got so many inquiries and referrals and like, like, yo, if you want to work in my company, let me know.
And when you when you ask, sometimes people will respond positively, not everyone, but people will.
And that's when you can make progress.
And so like, it's okay to ask for help.
I think that's a big one.
Yeah, don't don't do this alone.
We don't have to do this alone.
You know, like we're inherently social creatures.
Oh, and as a friend to people, it's a privilege to help.
It's a privilege for you to, it's an honor to, for you to be truthful with me and to let me take care of your, the thing that's hurting your heart.
That took a lot of time and did dance as well.
But I would say people would characterize me as like that girl with a really big backpack running across campus.
Really sweaty.
Yes, being alone.
Yes, it's true.
It's very lonely.
yeah yeah so that's the one thing that i think we gotta figure out maybe in the future but yeah um i will say i think a part of it is probably because i moved so many schools and moved so many companies that i had to restart my social group over and over again i moved la new york and then san francisco and san francisco is in different pockets of the bay area like i've always moved every year every single year new roommates whatever um
and i think that it's it there was like new non-profit groups new new community service groups that i did so i think like learning how to be in a new situation i had to really adapt too quickly but i would say like a lot of my life was alone and i really enjoyed that
Yeah, deeply.
I don't know.
I really like being alone.
So when I'm with someone else, when they leave me, I don't feel... I think I just perceive everything really like, yay.
I'm just so blessed to have this 10 minutes with you, even if you don't talk to me later.
And so every interaction is quite positive for me.
Yeah, I don't feel like people owe me their time, their love, their energy.
Yeah, I grew up doing a lot of community service.
Yeah, I think my the way I network or talk to people when I go to an event is like really different.
I guess that's true.
I talk to very little people for a very long time.
And I'd rather just do one person or two, three people and like really get to know them versus like say hi to everyone and not talk about that.
And then I'm always like really curious about the other person.
Yeah, I think I just was like, college is the most expensive thing ever.
I'm like, I want to know more about your life.
So I think that helps with forming my understanding of this person.
So that's probably the social connection part.
And then I, but I'm like, I'm, I'm very nice.
I'm very kind, but I do, I don't tolerate gross behavior in this, in the, like the superficial networky, like, yo, if you're trying to get something out of me,
I'm not gonna like play your game.
we're this is not what's happening I think I'm also extremely this person has done something bad and I'm gonna let my peers know my friends know my network know that behavior is not okay I don't stand for bad behavior and I'm and I'm gonna make that extremely clear I'm a very kind welcoming person but I have my principles and my values and I'm gonna make that abundantly clear and I don't associate with people who do bullshit like that and who treat other people poorly like we don't tolerate that here
If I don't try as hard as I can, what am I doing here?
And maybe in your world you do.
I don't care.
So I try to keep that stance because I know that, I don't know, I live in LA.
It's a very social place.
And that was always on the back of me.
Some people have done awful things.
I have – there's, like, this really big creator or whatever who employed a friend and, like, textbook gaslight manager of that person, of my friend.
Or actually, he's not my friend.
Like, he's my friend's partner.
So I kind of didn't really know her and she reached out.
She explained to me the situation and how horribly she was treated and how she was also yelled at.
And she was told she was weak or whatever.
And she was just trying to leave.
And then they'd be like, you think anyone's going to take you?
you think um we are literally the best place ever like we did you a service like you no one's ever going to take you and i think that kind of thing does something to you when you're 23 like you're when you're so young and these are the first people you trust with your career and they're supposedly friends and they supposedly have your bag and there are many times when they say i trusted you trust me we're in this together and then all of a sudden they 180 and they powered
And then I felt I had to figure it out.
there's this weird power play and that's how you're treated that to me was there enough to be like you're shit listed because you do not talk to people who work that hard for you with you and you don't step on them like that
And I'm going to let people know that that's awful.
And I've had friends who work with this group and associate with them because they make a lot of money or whatever.
But I call them up and I'm just like, if you're ever going to invite both of us, I'm not attending because this is what they did to our circle.
And that is not that's not appropriate.
And I don't if we allow that to happen, if we witness it, we observe it and we say, hey, this person is socially OK, then we stand for that.
You know, do you understand what you're doing here?
You're letting the invisible people feel more invisible.
and i don't want to be a part of that do what you got to do i don't really care but this i'm not going to judge you but this is where my judgment is yeah and i think even opening that conversation i'm like actually really confrontational like surprisingly confrontational as a person um so i think that's the only way to like start conversations to let people be like huh well okay that this is this is where we start this is where we talk so that's one example um and then it became clear that they've done other bad things that are like
I think more in the, I don't know, in territories that I can't really comment on, but people were like, damn, you were right.
So I think speaking about that is really important.
I will tell you another time that I don't know if it's like, I shared this on my podcast a while back where I was in this like influencer dinner.
No, actually it was a birthday dinner and there are lots of influencers there.
And I was with, this is when I wasn't really big at all.
And they treated me horribly at that table.
They were just like, oh, why are you sitting here?
Like we have our own thing.
And I'm like, this is a birthday dinner.
I know people here.
I was invited by the birthday boy.
And then I would try to engage with them and be like, hey, so, hey, what's your name?
My name is this.
Oh, you moved to LA.
Like, oh, where'd you move from?
Do you like LA?
Blah, blah, blah.
And then their entire persona was like,
Oh, I'm this.
Yeah, I've been here for like two years.
Like that's the entire fucking table of seven girls.
And I was shocked.
And these are like famous people and you know them.
You know them.
I was so shocked.
I've never seen this mean girl behavior in my life.
And I was like, you are not who you portray to be online.
I cannot believe this.
I'm staring at everyone's foreheads.
Then I go through every person and they're like that.
And then the only conversation they have with each other is, oh my God, do you see what they say in the group chat?
Haha, so funny.
Did you take the Harry Potter quiz?
What'd you get?
And then one of the girls, they were talking about like going to like a club later.
And then I was just trying to make any conversation.
Yeah, I know.
I was just like making any fucking conversation.
It was a two-hour sit-down, fancy-ass restaurant, $70.
Like I'm eating multi-course meal at this nice-ass restaurant in downtown L.A.
And then they're talking about going to the club.
And I'm like, oh, you guys are going now?
This girl turns and is like, yeah, we're going to... Oh, never mind.
There's only seven girls at the table.
I'm just like...
Why do people treat each other like this?
This is so confusing.
We are too old for this type of bullshit.
On the way home, another guy, one of the guys drove me home and he was like, how was your dinner?
And I was like, you want me to say the truth?
Because I was new to the friend group.
And then he was like, yeah, this is a safe space, I guess.
And I was like, this is the shit that went down.
And he was like, yeah, they do that.
And I'm like, why are you friends with them?
And he's like, you know, they're my party friends.
And I'm like, you don't need party friends.
You don't need these people who treat you like dog shit every single weekend.
Like there is an abundance of people who will treat you well.
Why do you do this?
And like, yeah, but they, you know, they have clout or whatever.
Like, like, I don't know what it was.
It's like something about this fear of being out of the group.
This fear of being alone and being ostracized and not being invited.
I'm just like, you cannot live like that.
That will affect your mental when you go to bed and you're alone at night and you wake up the next morning with no plans.
You cannot let yourself be a doormat of these people who will use you to be a body in this group, this picture.
Like, what are we doing here?
Why don't we call this out?
And I, like, wasn't sure how I was going to call it out because I was new.
I definitely think I was on the extreme end.
And, you know, I just, like, never associated with that group again.
And whenever people bring it up, I'm just like, these bitches said this.
And whatever.
Let it be known.
Let it be known.
Because there are consequences to being bad.
So anyways, that was just weird.
Oh, I mean, that whole interaction was weird.
I was like, that was the weirdest thing ever.
I've ever, whatever.
Yeah, I think a lot of it was self-imposed too.
And I don't think they thought it was weird.
I think they think it's normal.
It's the world they live in.
Yeah, the content.
Like all the club activities, my parents did not want me to do that.
Dance, of course, they didn't want me to do that.
They just wanted me to study.
Emphasis on they're dealing with it too.
So that was annoying.
And I don't know what we're going to do about that, but... Yeah, I think... I think I try to... I think I...
Yeah, but I was, I had like mediocre grades.
grew a lot from the trauma.
I think I used to be like a, I'm the victim.
I have a dark story.
I have trauma and I trauma bondage.
I project, I write this negative narrative.
And I think in the last year or two, I've really rewritten, rewired my brain in a way where I don't see myself anymore as that victim, but as like the hero of my own life.
I was like, I was like, fine.
So then how would I hero Chloe keep living?
So I can not, my story isn't about loss, but my story is about adventure.
Like, how do I switch that?
There's a lot of chip on my shoulder.
I lived, I worked socially and professionally with this chip on my shoulder to prove something.
And that can be good for the short term.
But then you get to a point where does that keep fueling you in the long term?
And is that kind of healthy for your dynamic with your relationship with yourself?
And it doesn't go that far.
And it should become more sincere, more positive, more raw, like more pure.
So that shift has happened in the last year.
And I'm so lucky to go through that growth and that journey and that excitement.
And then I do recognize a lot of people are still locked into their own.
I can't succeed because of this.
Like, I didn't grow with this.
And I don't have these resources.
I don't know the people.
And that's real.
That's so freaking real.
So what can I do?
And that's why I make a lot of career content.
What can I do to...
What is my role to help people in that way?
The best I can and the way I know I can, the language I can.
And how do I do it online and in my personal life too?
With my family, with my friends, with my community.
How do I volunteer that time and create, just make the world a kinder place?
And I can only do that in the reach I have.
So I try to...
To emulate the way I present myself publicly and privately, like as similarly as possible to treat everyone the way I wanted to be treated when I was in tech, when I'm in content, when I'm a sister, I'm a friend and a nobody.
I think for dance.
Like, where are they today?
And do I have that energy to give back?
And usually I do.
I have a lot to get.
My well is really deep.
My well is so deep and I can give a lot and it's a really good time for me.
I remember now.
So I try and I think you're doing amazing too.
Like these streams, you've been doing this for so many years.
You've broken barriers and you allow for all of these people to go on and share their thoughts in a safe space.
I was a big fan of Naruto growing up.
And to know that they're not alone, like that's hard as hell, especially for people who don't have access to that every day.
That's hard.
And you're still alive after all these years like that.
That shit's hard.
And I was like, if I wanted to be a ninja, the closest thing that's not martial arts is dance.
And when I first saw the body move, I was like, oh.
can i do that um but actually i wasn't gonna do dance and well when i did dance in claremont it was super toxic so uh i was very scarred and then i went to columbia and it tried out and then i got in and then i said i don't want to join dance and then the president pulled me aside and was like let me take you out and get you some boba and sushi and talk talk talk to me why do you not want to join dance and then she convinced me and bribed me with some boba and sushi we're best friends today
I, I, it's like that whole, um, uh,
You know how people are like, oh, I don't want to date a cheater.
I don't want to date a cheater.
And they ended up dating a cheater.
It's like that.
When you really focus on that color, then that color comes to you somehow.
That color becomes a possibility in your world.
And I think that was a big switch for me.
Like, oh, shit, I play victim.
And I knew it.
I realized that.
I was like, oh, all I do is trauma.
I talk about trauma.
And there's a certain level of processing that you should do for sure.
But then that energy does attract people who realize, okay, this is part of the equation now.
part of our conversation it's something we're going to bring up and tap into yeah so after that then I went the whole okay what is the other what is the complete opposite how do I move towards that direction and help let me make progress and that was a cool story to be on actually one of my mentors
um put me on the hero's journey type arc of maybe maybe this is how you should see your next future like you are not the victim here what does it look like to be a hero and uh yeah people will be annoyed but you know i think i am the priority right now like they're not gonna be responsible for my feelings like i have to be responsible for my space and that's how i i've enjoyed the journey thus far
You got to help yourself.
Sorry, my camera is so bright right now.
Don't worry about it.
Oh, look at that.
We figured it out.
Thank you so much for having me, especially, you know, mental health awareness month, API heritage month to talk about this topic and go through my career and ask thoughtful questions.
I know that people are quite unwell these days.
Like it's not an easy, like sociopolitical climate, financial, economical climate.
I think we all do our best every day and that's enough.
And actually just waking up is enough.
I have really, I think I'm so now positive because I've also been a lot around a lot of deeper mental health, like
unalive type topics in my family and in my communities and my friends.
And for someone to be like that in the trenches, in someone that I know, it hurts me.
And I know that it doesn't take that much to show up, at least for me.
For me, if I can just show up and then help them one more day and realize I can be one reason for them to keep going, then, oh, my God, we have a huge victory.
Yeah, so I think that motivates me to keep being as expressive as I am.
I chose to continue my facial expressions in life instead of being like, blech.
I think it, I like it a lot.
And I hope that it connects to someone and I hope that they know that I'm, I'm seeing them.
um but then she left and then a new person came in that became really toxic so i think there's this theme of uh leaders in every organization i'm part of rising and seeing me as a threat and then i got bullied a lot in the in those positions of like power i guess in all almost in a lot of my non-profit leadership
I, I hope that in my work, I can continue to help people at scale, like with content, but I want to find deeper ways for that impact and help people find the things that they want to adventure towards instead of feeling caged by.
So that is a beautiful thing to witness.
I'm really hoping for it.
It's always in flux.
I get feedback all the time.
People still don't really know how to work with me because I'm a really confusing character in their lives.
But I just try to be as upfront as possible and listen and ask questions and be like, this is me, this is where I'm at, and it might come off differently.
How do you receive and make that a two-way street?
So I think that's just how it'll always be.
Yeah, thank you for watching, everyone.
And do I just exit?
Yeah, previously worked in tech as a product manager and was making a lot of content about tech career.
groups and in dance anything that became a recurring theme wherever I went because I think I'm surprisingly outspoken and I will see this like policy or rule set or behavior and then I would call it out anything that's really jolting for people who perceive me as someone who's extremely like a cinnamon roll yeah
But you said something was... My Claremont dance was very toxic.
Uh, I was working with these other co-founders of the dance group and I think I dedicated a lot of, uh, I really wanted this to be the best dance crew in all the Claremonts.
And then at the top of last year, got laid off and decided to try to go into content.
And I think there was moments of them just like yelling at me for random things or, uh, not wanting me to be a center for, you know, how there's like dance choreo who gets to be center and
There's direction on when practices are or creative choices for what commitments we make.
How do we do scheduling?
So in that sense, toxic felt hostile in when we would discuss decisions and like,
There would be profanity and there would be putting you down and putting your opinions down.
And then to a point where confrontations had to be made.
I'm like trying to go back in time.
I was so long ago.
Yeah, I'm trying to remember what happened.
I just remember invisible, completely invisible, even though I was a founding member.
And then knowing that I would never want to be in that position again.
And then I think of being invisible or being a founding member.
I make a lot of content around tech products.
Well, I think so.
I just didn't want to deal with that.
Like I knew they had problems and they're projecting on me and there's some, some, some sort of love triangle happening between them and this other girl dance team.
So it's like, it's not even my problem.
So that was super weird.
And then at Columbia, there was another girl who became president.