Brit Prawat
Appearances
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Hey, Crime Junkies, it's Britt, and we're almost through our upcoming Crime Junkie Tour route, which means we are that much closer to getting to see you in person. 2025 is coming up in no time, and we can't wait to deep dive into a case with you all. But until then, you know the drill, we want to reshare a story from our next stop.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
That's so frustrating. I feel like everyone is just talking around this same group of guys, but no one can actually definitively say, yes, I was there, this is who started the fire. Have they actually talked to any of this group yet?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Oh, so they all just conveniently peaced out at the exact same time?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
I mean, how many accounts said, like, this was going on, these guys were messing with him, like, anytime they were around.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
But everybody knows that Donnie always hangs around with these other three guys. Exactly. So that's why he's kind of like being lumped in with them.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
No, of course he wasn't. I mean, I know. OK, so if he wasn't there, then where did he get this information? If you tell me he heard it from a friend, I might scream into this mic.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Yeah, and if they were all there and knew that he was on fire but decided not to turn around and help, then they're all technically involved with Aaron's death and could actually be held accountable in some way.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Yeah. So basically, voice stress tests definitely are not all that accurate. I actually found this one study by the National Institute of Justice, and it shows that even the most popular programs used to conduct those tests like at that time are really no better than like flipping a coin when it comes to getting an accurate definition of like truth or lies.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Can you even imagine being told, hey, there's a guy on fire and just not caring or checking it out or anything?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Wait, so he's saying that he wasn't even there when the fire was started?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Okay, to be clear, this could just be another situation where information or supposed details about this crime has been passed down from one friend to another. Is there anyone else who can verify the story, like that friend, for instance?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And today, we're headed back to Phoenix, Arizona, where in January 2023, Ashley told you how an innocent man's life was senselessly ripped away from him. Police are certain there are individuals who know who is responsible, but even today, justice remains to be seen.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
He doesn't know how to get in touch with his friend?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Okay, let me make sure I remember his story. He's the one who originally placed Nate, Charlie, and two other unnamed guys at the scene with Aaron. And he thinks that maybe Nate's brother Max might have joined them later in the evening, but he wasn't like 100% sure. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
I mean, someone was on fire and there was a gas can. Those feel really connected like you'd remember it the first time. And even if the accelerants at the scene were evaporated or washed away, like you said earlier, I don't know how this wasn't in his original version of events. Like a red gas can, that's going to stick out in your mind.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
But we have a whole extra person and a gas can in his story.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
OK, I'm going to be honest. I've never heard of something or I don't know, someone being on fire and being like, oh, yeah, this is clearly just a hilarious prank being played on me. What's with these people?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Right, to kind of like throw them off or whatever. Right. So what about Nate and Charlie? Were they ever able to track those two down? Oh, yeah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And be sure to follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Collecting everything they can is great, but if it got damaged by water or flame extinguishers or even just the fire itself, I mean, is it even going to be useful?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Ugh, I can totally picture this kind of guy, like, hanging out in, like, 7-Eleven parking lots with teenagers, even though they're, like, definitely in their 20s.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And Max isn't one of the two guys that he doesn't know, right?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Yeah, it definitely sounds like he thinks that they're capable, but maybe that they didn't mean to do this. Is there a chance that they just took things too far and this was actually an accident? Yeah.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Wait, if he's trying to make a call out, I guess I don't understand how he's overhearing this conversation. So...
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Okay, but, like, how did the public work around it? Like, I can't imagine that they could just show up and be like, we're going to dig here. Oh, you're absolutely right.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Dear Mom and Dad, We are safe. There's no need to worry about us. Oh, we really missed you in the past two years. At the beach on that day, we were walking to the bus stop when a man in a car stopped us and asked us if we wanted a ride. I said that we did, and that is how it all started. The man would not let us write before.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
He is letting us write tonight because he saw the story in the Herald tonight and felt sorry for you both. He watched us a lot for about six weeks, and then he did not watch us so much. Arna and I talk about you often, but Grant does not remember you at all after more than two years. We have been well-fed all the time. I, as well as Arna and Grant, hope that you are both well.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
The man said to me just now that he will willingly let us go if you come over to Victoria to get us as long as you do not call the police. He said that if you do, the deal is off. You have to pick us up in front of the Dandenong Post Office at 10 minutes to 9 o'clock next Monday, the 26th of February." This is Jane, who is writing.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Okay, but this guy has been kind of embarrassed before in front of his colleagues by believing something that ended up being nothing. What makes him think this one is like a for sure real deal? So here's the thing.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
This story is bananas, but I'm getting super lost. What's the connection to the Beaumonts again?
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Okay. And if he was responsible, like even the way the boys' bodies were found, but the kids weren't? doesn't really add up.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
We have heard some dark stories about people who have dark, twisted fantasies and turn-ons. What? But honestly, I did not see this one coming. It's weird, right? What? Satin? Satin. And like, he can't see it. He can't hear it rustle. Can't be around it. He can't go to weddings, obviously. Like, I'm so floored by this entire thing. But as weird as it is, because it is. Totally.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Okay, but didn't Hayden say that he saw the Beaumont kids with Harry?
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Right. Like maybe they're hiding out somewhere because maybe their parents are angry with them because they didn't come home on time. Right.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Oh, my God. That is right. Eerie. Like, obviously, he's older than the sketch, but he would be.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Honestly, the eeriest thing for me is the hairline is... Yeah.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And like the ear shapes, the nose shape. This is creepy. We've talked about it a lot where sketches look really, really, really similar to suspects. But honestly, I think this is the most...
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Okay, that's so shady, though. Like, if you just bought it or bought it in general and it was just hanging around your house, like, why all of a sudden would you just pitch it? Mm-hmm. I mean, that's exactly what I thought, too.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
I feel like the families of these kids have just seen so much like hope that's dashed and then hope that's dashed. Like, do they have any family members that are still around? Like their parents? Like this is 50 years out.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
But let's take a moment to appreciate how far we've come as podcasters. Please be nice, like truly be kind.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Okay, but that doesn't clear Harry. Like, they've only dug a couple of places on his property.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
So wait, are the police involved in this or is this being run through like another government agency? Like you said, he was from Parliament.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Yeah, especially since again, like this really is like the last opportunity for a search, especially of this size, like three different places. That's like an extensive search.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
I mean, not to go like too dark, too fast, but was kidnapping an option at this point? Like, or are police really just trying to find them in some sort of freak accident on the beach?
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Okay, but if someone snatched them, like, someone had to have seen it. You said it was one of the busiest days on the beach, right? Yeah, I mean, it was, yeah, super packed. Even if they didn't realize right away that it was a kidnapping, something would have been off. These three kids just randomly go off with a stranger. Someone would have had to have witnessed something.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Okay, so it means a pretty normal looking guy. He's got kind of a longish face, a big forehead. I guess my next question is, if they saw him well enough to describe him for the sketch, like, what else did the witness like pick up on? Like, how was he acting with the kids? What was his demeanor? How are the kids with him? Stuff like that. So it's interesting.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
So the police are thinking maybe the strange man gave them this one-pound note? Exactly.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Okay, but why would he steal less money and give them more back?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Thank you. Hi, Crime Junkies. Britt here. And Happy New Year. Can you believe it's 2025? The perfect time for some New Year resolutions. Maybe you're planning on getting back in the gym, picking up a new hobby, or maybe you're trying to come to our Crime Junkie Life Rule Number 10 live tour. I promise the last one is so easy to stick to.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And this friend only reported this when the police questioned him?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
I mean, he had to have believed him enough to not go give him gas, but... The thing that sticks out to me the most is Eric already had a burner phone. I mean, spoiler alert, that backfired, but having that, plus, like, way earlier asking this friend to, like, do a favor for him, like, it feels like there's some kind of plan here, right? Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
But weren't his wife and daughters, like, cleaning up the crime scene?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
I was going to say, like, your son brings the lifeless body of a girl down from his room and you're like, sure, I'll help you load this up in the car and then clean off the driveway and then head to church. It's like unhinged. Yeah. Yeah. And like, did Eric ever say how Leslie died?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
OK, let's say Eric is telling the truth and she overdosed. Like, wouldn't toxicology prove that? There's that. And then why wouldn't you just call 911? Right.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
So, I mean, the million dollar question is, where is Eric now?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And like, I know like you can't make sentences or charges on this, but I can't get over the fact that they knew Leslie. She's someone that they've known and knew for years.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Which would be like the baseline sentences for a murder in the U.S.,
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
I feel like there's still so much we just don't know about this. Like, why did all this happen?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And if you haven't gotten your tickets yet, don't worry, there's still some left. But hurry, they are going so, so quick. We will have a direct link in our show notes. Which brings me to why I'm here today. This Thursday, we're headed to our last tour stop, Las Vegas. And for the special occasion, we're unlocking an episode from the Crime Junkie Fan Club vault.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
So she knew this guy. He wasn't just some like rando from Instagram.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Yeah, that's almost exactly what Leslie's mom asks. But the Ibarra family says they don't know where Leslie is, so Leslie's family has no choice but to leave and just to start looking for answers themselves.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
We hope you guys have enjoyed these re-releases as much as we have. We've loved being in your ears each Thursday, re-highlighting cases from all around the country. And we can't wait to see you all in person so, so soon.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And 440 is the last text to her sister, right? Right.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
So really, they're only looking at the distance he could travel within the 10 minutes from the gas station.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
So the time and the radius gets even smaller. Right.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Hi Crime Junkies, Britt here, and today we're hitting our last stop on the East Coast, Boston, Massachusetts. Boston is a city known for many things, but as Crime Junkies know that back in 1996, it was the newly found home to an au pair from Sweden that was looking to explore her dreams in the United States. She was supposed to have her whole life ahead of her, but instead never got the chance.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
I mean, OK, here's the thing. We're looking at I'm looking at it in the light of like. 2017, where my dogs match each other and occasionally coordinate with me and my husband. So I'm like, my filter is off.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
So very far away to just be hanging out walking your dog.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
She could be in the trunk. What kind of car was it? I have questions.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
No social media, no mutual friends, no crossover, nothing. Right.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Pictures of her in the background in pictures from other people at the club. I mean, we've all seen you.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
OK. OK. Wait. I know this is a while back in the story, but didn't she date a cop or something?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
I just pulled it up and I see the picture and it's super spooky. Also, two before it, there's a picture with a white dog wearing sunglasses, which I feel like a Superman dog would also wear. But no, it's a really creepy picture.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
It almost looks like maybe a map or like a fairy tale book. I can't quite tell, honestly. What are your thoughts on it?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Karina Homer? Oh, it doesn't sound familiar. I'm super excited. Britt, you sound a little bit rough today. I am sick, so excuse me if I sound kind of congested and scratchy-throated, because that is exactly what I am, so...
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
It's still someone close to her, close to her family, close to her kids.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Yeah. Yeah, it's going to be hard to forget some of those pictures, honestly.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Well, and you also, at least to me, I also have to question the idea of maybe it's not getting a second or closer look because she wasn't a citizen or a U.S. national. You know, like what would our country be implicated in internationally? True. In the event that like it was potentially someone higher up in Boston, like a police officer in Boston.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Yeah. Wow. That was a really good story. I feel like I'm the little kid in The Princess Bride. Yeah. getting a story told to him while I'm sick. Yeah. I mean, it didn't make me feel better at all. And I have so many questions, but you did a really good job. So.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
And be sure to check out our website, Crime Junkie Podcast dot com.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
We all still had so many questions back in 2018 when we first told you the story, and I wish we had more answers today. But we're resharing this case as a reminder to all you crime junkies, if you have a secret, for the love of God, tell someone, anyone, because you never know what might happen next.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
I thought you said I was going to enjoy this story and it was going to make me feel better. I feel worse now.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
I would also stop and talk to this man for the record.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
So you're saying that Crime Stoppers just takes the tips and helps make arrests?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Or like path of least resistance, for lack of better terms.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Are they like totally estranged by this point? Are they still trying to talk to him, convince him to like tell them what happened?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Okay, I feel like this is one of your favorite little reminders. Years change things. Relationships.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Yeah, time makes people maybe change their mind about talking.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Honestly, this whole thing seems kind of premeditated. Like, you're going to a shed to pick up a barrel and you end up putting your wife's body in the barrel after you kill her?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Sometimes stuff happens fast, and you've got to move, like, just as quickly. I can totally see her popping out, leaving everything to take care of whatever emergency farm thing happened somewhere else.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
But the prosecution asked for a body or a witness. And now they have a witness.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Right, like even with this witness, it's still a no body case.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
pathologists from the University of Illinois? You know, every day in this job, I learn something new.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
So unless someone else just happened to be randomly burning a barrel next to this same side of this tree in the summer of 81.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Okay, if I were cops suspecting a guy of murder, top of my to-do list after he skirts an indictment isn't return gun to rightful owner. Like- Especially when that man is the person who possibly just got out of a murder charge. I know. And I don't know if they have to because there was no indictment. In my mind, I've seen people hold evidence forever. Yeah, like it's still evidence.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Does this little jailbreak attempt plot twist result in like additional charges for Fred now?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
I'm sorry, Ashley. I feel like I need to see like a picture of Fred or something. Like what kind of power does he have over these women to get them to do this like truly wild stuff?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Like, but again, not the, like... Not the beautiful, handsome, charismatic-looking, charismatic being. Maybe in his younger years. Eh.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Ashley, I feel like you should have led with all of that information.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
I mean, it's Fred, right? Not like Fred Fred because he's in county lockup, but like... It's Fred. Someone for Fred.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
I mean, all a good defense attorney needs is to find one small crack, and it sounds like they found one.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Wait, is he like missing, missing or just like hiding out, avoiding the trial?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
So the big question now is, did Vicki McAllister have blonde curly hair?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Is there any testing they can do on it to see if it was used recently or anything?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
You know, it's always so like chilling but devastating to me when a victim like sees it coming. You know, like it's like a train barreling towards them that they can't stop. They can do nothing to stop.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Right. And also, like, I feel like we should take anything Dale says with like a grain of salt. Like he was probably doing illegal stuff with Fred.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Also, even if Dale is telling the truth, Fred being at his place at night kind of means nothing, right? Like we don't know when Charlotte actually went missing.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
I just remember like miles and miles of fields with like these little houses peppered here and there, some wooded areas. Sometimes they're like separating the field. Sometimes they're just like in the middle hanging out.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Yeah. And again, like there's not much going on. There's not a lot out there. But if you're looking for something, the land can just seem endless to a point.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Well, and it's also not like this is just a suspect off the streets for Jenny and Jeff. Like this is their dad.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Who was the federal agent?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Yeah, that's the type of embarrassment that like wakes you up in the middle of the night seven years later and you just continue to cringe. Yes.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But it was a blizzard. Like, would we even expect there to be footprints in the snow?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
It's almost like a disconnection or dissociation with reality anymore.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But then why delete the calls? Right. Like, looking for your friend is a good thing.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Right. And I know a big theory online is that she was calling to find John's phone. So then they could, like, plant it outside near his body.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And we're just supposed to, like, believe all that. Like, that twice, the exact footage we need, including one from a local library, is just, uh-oh, missing, sorry.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So we're using this confession as that it actually happened, not a misremembering of what she said or what she could have said. And they like pick at this at trial.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Well, and didn't she, like, really early on, like, tell Carrie on the phone, like, I think he's dead? Like, right off the bat, she goes immediately to, John is no longer alive. Maybe he even got hit by a plow or something?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
They've been drinking all night. Is he sleeping it off somewhere?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But she's also kind of accusing him of maybe being with another woman in those voicemails, right? I know. It doesn't...
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Either way, how does no one remember this the right way?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And she drove off pissed. Yeah, wasn't she leaving, like, really, really angry voicemails, like, that whole night?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
This is what I could never, like, wrap my head around. Like, how are all the injuries so high up if she hit him, assuming he's standing, like, with her car?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And I feel like that's what, like, has fed into the conspiracy stuff is, like, they got rid of the dog. I mean, as a dog person, that's impossible to understand.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Okay. And aside, you or another friend like messed up a doggy DNA test for the same reason. Like it came back like completely bovine. Oh, that wasn't me. Yeah. Someone did like a dog DNA test and the test came back as like not dog because they had to give their dog a treat to do the swab. No way.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Yeah. So like that, like in my mind, like bears some credence. But also the Alberts sold their home around the same time, too, which like the combination of the two things, the defense, I think, finds pretty suspicious. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Yeah, like every crime junkie knows Life360, right? You should. Anyways, it basically like it's a tracking app for teens or whatever.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But that can't be the excuse for everything. The data isn't wrong. Those calls weren't answered. The data is wrong. Like I wasn't driving around. I know. I know. That's just a blanket excuse at this point.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Well, And I can't figure out why. Like, I still don't get the motive. I don't know. I think it's because there isn't a strong one.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Yeah, more people helping and trying to figure this all out.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Well, and didn't they make, like, a big deal about the Apple health data during the trial? Like, John specifically, like, where he moved and when he moved and all of that. Yes.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Well, and I was thinking when you were saying, like, the steps and how long it was, like... My devices think that I am running a marathon. Because we're doing this and talking. When I'm knitting. Because my hands and wrists are moving. And it's like, oh, wow, you're getting your steps in. And I was like, oh, dear.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Right, because at one point, she's not just asking if she hit him. Like, she says she did hit him, right?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Okay, so just to be clear, Bud has a son who is around like Betty's age driving the car.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And by doing that, they're basically just discounting taxi driver Phillip's sighting. Like, this whole list, everything that they're counting on, they're main lead right now.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Was there anything that they could collect to potentially use later?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Okay. It says, Sirs, the following information was related to persons in the fall of 1971 concerning the murdering of a young lady later found on a beach near the Paw, Manitoba. The story was related by Lee Colgan being in a state of intoxication and near tears that he had been driving his car accompanied by Jim Houghton and Norman Manger.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
There were two or three mentioned, but their names are forgotten. They had forced the girl into this car where it was then driven to the murder site, the girl being raped by all. She had threatened police action. She was then murdered using a screwdriver, punch, or similar instrument.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Gordy Buck had seemingly witnessed the car returning from the beach in the early a.m., and Lee Colgan lives in constant fear of information possible being forwarded to the local authorities. It is hoped that investigation by the officers can produce results. The informants do not wish to identify as reprisals were threatened by Lee Colgan against the friends and families concerned.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
These men are all of the local area of the Paw, Manitoba.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
I know. And was this car still being, like, driven around? Like, the family had to have known.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Okay, so he's just, like, at the airport because that's where he is.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Like, surely someone reported this and looked into it. It's not important for me to come forward with it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And literally the others are just standing around watching it happen.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
So if Dwayne is the one holding the weapon, Jim just was out there with him watching it happen? He helped Dwayne drag Betty?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
I mean, they have physical evidence, too, right? Like they have the murder weapon or two of them.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Which makes sense because they weren't able to test any of that, to like definitively, without a doubt, say this was Betty's blood, this was Betty's hair.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Okay, so just to do some math... There were four people known to have been involved in this crime.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Like, fully there, while it happened, four people. There were three arrests. Mm-hmm. There were then two people on trial.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And out of those two people, we got... One conviction. One conviction. Yes.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
But what I can't get past is there were four people there that night. It, to me, doesn't really matter.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
That you're a nice guy now or if you were the one holding the weapon or not.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
While also, like, bragging about it on the down low. Like, almost making a mockery of the lack of justice.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
So the only conviction we got. You got 10 years. Yielded a sentence of 10 years.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
It is clear that Betty Osborne would not have been killed if she had not been Aboriginal. The four men who took her to her death from the streets of the Paw that night had gone looking for an Aboriginal girl with whom to party. they found Betty Osborne. When she refused to party, she was driven out of town and murdered.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Those who abducted her showed a total lack of regard for her person or her rights as an individual. Those who stood by while the physical assault took place, while sexual advances were made, and while she was being beaten to death showed their own racism, sexism, and indifference. Those who knew the story and remained silent must share their guilt.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And be sure to follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
I have to imagine that Playboy boyfriend is one of the first people they look into.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
But did it actually happen? I mean, you just said the time that this was, this is, like, peak satanic panic, like, era.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Which, I mean, this is like Occam's razor. It makes the most sense.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
I mean, him witnessing a drug deal and then things going south or being tied to a tree, those seem a little out there. But him ODing doesn't seem that far fetched. I mean, no one can really explain why he was seen like stumbling around. He was at this party. Everyone's climbing up or no one's talking.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
It might have been like an OD that he was even conscious of because it seems like some of the witness statements, he didn't even know what was going on with himself.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And this is first thing in the morning, like as they're discovering Randy's not at their home.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
I mean, I don't know how to feel about this. Yay? Question mark? Whose foot is it?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Because if you find a foot, it more than likely means the rest of the body is not alive. Who does it belong to? Right. And like.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Was there any significance to the timing of it being burned down? Like were police starting to like want to search it?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Are Randy's parents still thinking that something happened to Randy at the farm?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Like someone on the inside knows or feels like there could be something more that can be done that's not happening.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And having grown up sneaking clips of the Jerry Springer show with my parents. Having just watched the, like, expose thing. Oh, I haven't watched it yet.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
This was what the reaction, like, this is the reaction they wanted.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
But we're still kind of at square one because none of this told us how Randy's disappearance has anything to do with Eric at all.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Right. And if, if, if, if, big capital letter, if, this does somehow tie back to Eric and like protecting question mark Everett or like getting retribution. Why kill Randy?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
It doesn't make sense. And why kill just Randy? Like. teens, plural, were terrorizing Everett and one kid goes missing.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Right. Like everything is in here. Right. But because we don't we can't definitively say that they ever even talked. It almost feels more likely that they could have. And this is the answer. And this is why we don't know for sure.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
So this isn't even coming from, like, law enforcement, court records involving Eric. Well, I think that's where they get it. But it's not, like, direct to the leeches. It's coming from these kind of three random people.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
I'm sorry. I'm going to need you to rewind a little bit. Why is the teenager crying in the driveway? And like teenagers, I have one, not the cleanest people. They had a party the night before and there's no evidence of it.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Well, and I feel like so many agencies are giving them kind of the runaround.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
You didn't bring them in, though. You arrested them. Right. It feels like they're trying to downplay what happened, right? Yeah. To arrest someone, you have to have an arrest warrant. You need probable cause to get a warrant. You need someone to sign off on this. It's not just investigative purposes. Right.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
It wasn't out of nowhere. That's why they believed it when Terry showed up.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Or was it just a chance that he like reached out at the same time?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Or even picking up like how kind of odd all of these things put together are.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Okay. Sorry. I'm still wrapping my mind around this Terry Lee situation. Yeah. Did the police make those arrests based off of Terry's info then?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
If you're working for Unsolved Mysteries, you kind of want the mysteries to be solved, right? Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
The end goal? Yeah, I don't. It's all bananas. Continue, Terry Lee.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Did Terry slash Lee get in trouble for his involvement? That's kind of a silly question. I don't even know what the crime is or would be.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
So, I mean, where do they stand on Terry? Did they even know what this press conference in their house was going to be about?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
I mean, what if there's nothing to talk about? I just keep coming back to the fact that Randy's still missing, but so is the car. The car was never found. Like, what if this was just a tragic accident and they went into the water somewhere?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And I guess that's just the thing that makes the most sense to me. Like if Randy found his keys and drove away. You said at the beginning, that's like Occam's razor. That's the most likely thing to have happened here. But the only thing that has me pausing and like rethinking literally everything. Is there so much weirdness?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
3-29-91. Other than being after Randy went missing, is there any significance to that date?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
I was going to ask, like, when did this happen? Was it around 91? Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
That is so wild. And, like... I'm not even going to ask the question because you don't have the answer. We don't know if this was like maybe like a tribute that a friend did.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And I guess I keep thinking if this is foul play, someone did an incredible job at hiding that car.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Which makes me wonder if they do have something that they just don't want anyone to know, whether it's a suspect or evidence that they just don't want out there yet.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Especially because when you think about evidence or a person like I said yet and immediately regretted it, like what's there to lose at this point?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Today, we have a submission from Autumn. Hi, guys. I have been listening to y'all's podcast since 2020, and I fell in love with true crime. I've always been interested in crime, even as a child watching CSI, Dateline, etc. Same.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Yeah. But y'all's podcast opened the door to more conversations about crime and violence, especially partner violence, that more people should be having. I actually work as a victim slash sexual assault advocate for my local county in Texas and just received my national certification of credentials. And y'all's podcast helped fuel that passion for advocacy work.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Hearing all the stories weekly of women and men killed and assaulted, the statistics you present in your episodes, the advice on how to handle missing person reports and handle law enforcement have all been things I've used to excel in my work as an advocate. In my interview, I actually mentioned the seven times to leave statistic that I learned from your podcast.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
My job is to help lessen the trauma victims experience from being subject to violent crime. And I can't tell you how many women and men I see dealing with horrible abuse. I use my position as a way to advocate for their strength to leave, provide them resources to get out and let them know they're not alone in their fight.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Every week, the stories you tell on the podcast remind me why my work will never end and why I do what I do. Every episode reminds me why victim advocates are such an important asset to victims and their families. Thank you both for the work you do advocating and for inspiring people like me to join advocacy fields too.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And what's crazy is, like, I would never have said that, like, I would have never thought of podcasting as an advocacy field, but we are. Let's go, girl. Amazing. Thank you, Autumn.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
So do we know, like, towards the end of his time there, when did he leave? How was he planning on leaving? Like, was it with a group of people?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And that's 7 o'clock in the morning. Party ends at 2.30. I was going to say, there were only stragglers who were staying overnight at 2.30. Yes. That is such a small amount of time to just make any evidence that a party even happened disappear.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
My husband and my son both, like, play D&D pretty regularly. It is, I think it's kind of lame. But, like, everyone has their thing.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Everyone has their thing. And, like, this is so benign and innocuous. And, like, I'm trying to put myself in the mid-80s when this was, like, a big, very scary thing.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Something that not everyone else in the community is doing. And that's sad and frustrating.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
So we're back there. That adds almost, what, three more decades to the estimated time frame of her death? Yes.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
But what about the ring? Judy O'Donnell doesn't match the initials.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Which is... Shocking, a surprise, and like disappointing, but at least they have DNA that they can work with now, right?
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
When they checked missing persons reports, were they checking from the Midwest or just like New York and the surrounding area?
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
That kind of match right off the bat is... Unheard of almost. Yeah, really rare. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Uh, the uppercase M, lowercase C, uppercase G from the ring.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Okay, so we've got one man, three wives, two of whom were at the same time, and at least four kids?
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Hold up. Can we please, like, call them Junior and Senior from here on out? Can you imagine, like, having a son and naming after you? And then having a wife whose daughter is named after her? It's wild. So sure.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
So Pat was the witness at her daughter's wedding to this grown-ass man? Yes. Cool, cool, cool.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Hold up. I know the clothing label date was wrong, but what about that rat poison wrapper? Wasn't that from like the late 70s?
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Wait, are you saying the character Pauly Walnuts was based on him or that the actor himself actually used to be a mobster?
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Well, yeah, someone encased in concrete kind of speaks for itself.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
,,,,,,,, P P P P P P P P 100 ac ac ac ac ac ac ac ac ac ac ac ac ac ac ac ac ac ac ac ac ac ac ac ac ac ac ac ac ac ac ac in P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P Pobra gi la� la� la� la� la� la la la la la gr wh gi bouw gi bouw gi bouw gi bouw gi bouw gi bouw gi bouw gi bouw gi bouw gi la ,G e ,G e ,G e ,G e ,G e ,G e , ,G , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
OK, well, we're going to do our best so you guys can see the presentation. Yeah, for sure. On the website. And make sure you send us your submission for the good and cheer us up a little bit.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
It makes me wonder if she left home or was somehow like taken from family or caretakers well before she died. Like at some point, somebody cared enough to get her that expensive dental work. But then somewhere along the line, something changed. Right.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Okay, but at least with this watch being from 66, we know that this body is at least from like the 60s.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Was that all buried with her or did it just like end up with her over time?
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Well, and it's not just about burying her, right? Like, unless this basement already had concrete stored in it, they'd have to haul that down there, making multiple trips in and out, like, make the concrete.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
You know what doesn't make sense to me about the sex worker theory, though? Like, in so many cases we've covered where the victims were sex workers, the killers just dumped them somewhere on the side of the road, in an alley, ditch. They didn't even try to hide what they've done or what they did.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
And like if they did do that, like Lisk, like they did try to hide, the victims were like super, super hidden, close together, or at least buried outdoors. But this guy, he went to extreme lengths to try to make sure like she would never be found, not even by accident. Right.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Yeah, but anything could happen. Like, what if he dies? I guess, in my opinion, why wait?
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And Ray aside, is there any theory around why hands and heads were removed? I mean, to prevent identification...
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Like the FBI asked him for it or he did that as part of his investigation?
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And Chief Tortelot said no one has been ruled out as a person of interest.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Is that stuff her family can share with her? Didn't you mention something about Ray's mom?
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And were they close? Like, I know cousins can mean, like, very different things for different families.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
She basically predicted exactly what was going to happen to her.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
What? Reese told someone that she was afraid that she was going to end up like her cousin, that someone was mad at her. Someone was going to cut off her head. Yes. A couple months later, the exact thing happens. I know. Exactly like she predicted. And no one looked into it.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
I wish these different counties would just talk to each other more.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Nobody noticed she was gone for five months?
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Do we know which is correct? Was she meeting a girlfriend or Pedro that last night?
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
It says, on 4-4-12 at 2.40 p.m., squad 2131 went to the address of 825 South 23rd Street, number 6, to conduct follow-up regarding the missing person, Julia Baez. At the address, we found that apartment number 6 does not exist. The building only houses apartments 1 through 5. This was confirmed by the mailboxes and meters located in the rear of the building.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
There was also no Baez on the mailboxes. What? I know. It's 22 years later and also this apartment doesn't exist?
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
I mean, did they try to contact her children or do more follow up with Pedro or the friend she was out with? Not that I know of.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Is this his way of telling the public not to panic? Or is he, like, trying to connect things?
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
You can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Okay, this month's submission is actually a sort of response to a story that we featured on the Good segment before. Ooh, full circle. Yeah, I don't know if you remember, but back in September 2023, we read a letter about the Freedom Canine Project, which is an Indianapolis organization specializing in training service dogs for victims of sexual violence and people with PTSD. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Well, some pretty cool things have been happening over there, and this is a submission from Lydia. Dear Ashley, Britt, and team, I'm not sure if you remember us, but you featured my nonprofit organization, Survivors Companion, then going by the name Freedom Canine Project, on a good segment a little over a year ago. And wow, what a freaking impact you made.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Not only did your donation make a gigantic difference in what we were able to accomplish this year, but your crime junkies showed up and showed us so much love. In donations, follows, volunteering, etc., They really came through and helped us grow in ways I never could have expected. We are so grateful and hope you know what an impact you've made. Lydia, CEO and head trainer. Thank you, you guys.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
That is like a good for you guys. Like our listeners went out and donated, volunteered for this organization just by hearing some good. The good continues.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Well, that's not exactly what you want to hear from an investigator.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And for me, I always like can't quite wrap my head around the statement, there's no evidence of foul play because there isn't evidence of not foul play. Like, what does that mean?
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
It's always so wild to me that psychics were just like regularly involved in investigations back then.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Quick question. Is Tortolat a common name there? No.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
I guess I'm trying to, like, think of how I greet my friends or, like, my neighbors.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Like, you know what I mean? Yeah, like, I would say, like, good morning to anyone walking down the street, I think.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Which makes even less sense. If we're working off the theory that they knew she'd be outside and timed it to when Sergio might be leaving, then why even get there that early? Why would you be waiting around at 2 a.m.? If they're already there, why not attack when she goes out to get Starbucks at like 6 o'clock?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
So there's a chance that they came by at 2 to scope the area out.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Yeah, like a long coat that's, like, kind of billowing out or could billow out. And then there's definitely, like, go-go boots or, now that you mention it, stormtrooper boots would make sense. That's what they think. I don't know.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And what about the woman that Sergio had mentioned earlier, especially since there's a chance the shooter might be female?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
So what about her actual work? Like, could she have found out about something she wasn't supposed to?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
I mean, it's not like a garage sale is a secret, though. That's kind of the whole point. I mean, surely someone mentioned it or heard about it in passing in the past months.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And why were they holding it on a Friday? Wouldn't a Saturday make more sense?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And there's not some, like, garage sale spree killer out there at the time, right? No. Like, I don't think I've heard of any similar cases.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Yeah, but everyone knows that police checked phone records. Like, what if he used a burner? I mean, did they use, like, one of those cell tower dumps that they do where they just get everything?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Right. But it wouldn't necessarily have to be like a fortune that we're talking about. And we've heard stories about hitmen working for pennies, practically nothing.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
But when you think about everything that had to line up, like, just so perfectly for all of this to happen this way.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And like you said, since when is half a million dollars not that much?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
But even just knowing about the policy could be enough of a motive, even if you never actually get the money. True. And you still haven't mentioned anyone else who knew Liz's schedule and had something to gain from her death. Just him.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Yeah. Someone says like, oh, I thought this was weird that they did. They seem to have this in their relationship. She mentioned this one time. There's nothing.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And hang on, did Liz confront Oscar about any of this? It feels like she's kind of removed from all of this financial stuff.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Well, and it's not even like his dad would have gotten the money when Liz died. I don't see how it helps him.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Okay, but if we're supposed to believe that Sergio didn't even know the amount of the policy, he likely didn't know it was going to double if she was murdered. How the heck would Oscar have known?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
It becomes like Oscar is the mastermind theory. Right. Is Sergio suspicious of his dad at all?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
How did they set off her alarm if she was shot out by the driveway?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Can they narrow it down by looking at other connections, trying to triangulate people who own a Frontier or a dark-colored Frontier and a .38 revolver?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And I was honestly about to say something similar about the truck. I mean, maybe it was stolen or borrowed from a
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And this feels like a no-brainer, but I assume they checked everyone in the neighborhood, like, especially in that specific cul-de-sac?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
I mean, this is just kind of what happens, right? Like the longer a case stays unsolved, the more room there is for speculation and misinformation and rumors and gossip.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
That sounds like something you would say if you knew who did it and knew that that person was close to them.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And did he ever end up collecting on that life insurance policy?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And they can't just keep it away forever, though, can they?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Is there a reason people are saying this is a possibility? Like, to me, I feel like we know this person is waiting specifically for Sergio to leave. They don't need the camera. You don't need the camera because this is like part of their routine.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And you can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Which is a super short amount of time, but I'm thinking like people are leaving for work, taking like their dogs on walks. Did anyone see this happen?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Were they coming back to get something? Like did they stop or was it just a drive by? Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And maybe they parked further away because they had spotted that camera.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
I guess I'm trying to decide where the line is between like crime junkie paranoid and laying out all this groundwork to cover your tracks. It's strange.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Wouldn't it be nine victims if six were already there and then three came home?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
You just keep repeating that like it's going to make more sense a second time around. What the f*** is an abortion boat?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Nothing to back this up, I assume. Just kind of a combining of their two possible scenarios.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Can we prove that that part is real, this duo and their clinic?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Is he saying that they did this procedure on the boat? Or like the boat that picked them up and was supposed to take them to where the abortion would happen?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Want to wish all mothers a last Mother's Day. Yes, I said last Mother's Day. Just now, over TV, the name has been changed to Birthing Person Day. I hope all you women slash mothers see the respect the Democrats have for your kind of devotion to America's youth.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Let me be one of the first to announce support for renaming all abortion centers, abortion doctors, and Planned Parenthood groups killing centers from this day forward as a last vestige of true patriotic Americanism. Our mothers.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Yesterday, my dear Aunt Shirley was buried at 90 years old, the devoted mother to four wonderful children and the surrogate mother of more than 30 foster children in her busy lifetime. She was more than a birthing person. She was God's angel sent to Earth to become a mother, not to be a murderer of children or killing centers where confused women go who don't have the ability to be a mother."
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Thank God she was already in heaven today and didn't have to bear being demoted from a truly loving mother to just another person the Democrats can add to their voter rolls as a person. Sort of like changing the name applied to an illegal criminal alien to a poor undocumented person. Wow, Ashley. What? Mm-hmm.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
I was going to say, I am a horse girl. I grew up with a horse that I would have never in a million years left behind for anything. He was my baby.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
No, like standing on the shore, it honestly looks like an ocean.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Are they sure they even got on a boat in the first place? I know we have that one sighting of the three girls getting on the boat, but did anyone else see that happen?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
But it also might just mean that the guy who owned the boat isn't around to report it missing or couldn't call it missing. in before something happened.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
all the more reason to be suspicious. I mean, something clearly happened here. The boat didn't douse itself in gasoline.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
A metal rowboat that was also made of turquoise plywood and collided with something with enough force to just completely disintegrate it into pieces.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
So now they think the women peaced out on purpose?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Okay, so not drowning, but no evidence of foul play. Based on what? What?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
But there's also no evidence that it wasn't foul play.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Yeah, and listen, I get that walked off on their own is always a theory when you have a person go missing. But to me, it seems super far-fetched to think about three women with three different lives, three different sets of circumstances, all committing to disappearing at once on purpose. It's not not possible.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
She didn't even give him the letter, though. I know. And that has nothing to explain the other two disappearing with her.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And again, I say it has nothing to do with why Anne and Patricia would have left. Like, they're not giving up their lives in, what, solidarity over a husband's hobby?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Obviously, like you said, I knew about the concept, but I wanted to read up a little bit before this episode. So I found an article on Scary Mommy, which I'll link to if you want to go deeper. There's even a book on this. But basically, there were these homes where families of unmarried, pregnant girls and women...
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
They hid their daughters away while they were pregnant so no one would have to see them.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Obviously, they were out there living their lives. The women were the ones forced to wear the scarlet letter in the form of that baby bump. Then once they gave birth and their babies were adopted out voluntarily or otherwise, then and only then could the women and girls be returned to polite society.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Hold up. She went to Mexico to marry someone to get her U.S. immigration papers in order? It doesn't make sense. And now she's supposedly stuck in Mexico or the U.S.?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
OK, none of this BS even explains the car, though. Like, if you're going to tell us a story, tell us a whole story, Jonathan. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Mm-hmm. And what does he have to say about that 727 number?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Based on the video, can they tell if he put anything in the car?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
So her family has to regularly interact with the person that they're pretty sure killed their sister and their daughter. Well, not even interact, but, like, in their own home. I mean, that's gotta be, like, absolute hell for them.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
I mean, what more do we need here, people? I know. I mean, arrest this guy already.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
They have camera footage. The fibers. To me, the camera footage is almost better than an eyewitness. You don't have to worry about memories getting misinterpreted from actual footage. Then you have cadaver dogs hitting in the trunk.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Yeah. Yeah. Like you have him lying about her car. You have him pretending to be her over text messages. Like there's so much that's there.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Which is why cases like this have to be taken so seriously from the very beginning.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And you can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Okay. I mean, unless he's like out of underwear, what's the rush?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And it's just like, well, it doesn't seem like he's planning on taking care of Astrid. Like, it seems like he's going to leave her there with Yeneth.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
They say, Hey girl, how are you? Sorry for what I did with Astrid. I'm not going to be able to help Jonathan by myself, please. I'm good, don't worry about me, please. I'll call Jonathan now to tell him how things are. I don't want to talk to anyone for the moment. Give me my space. I just want to put down my thoughts and what I want to do.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Yeah. Like, can he even do that without the other parent there? Like, he's only one of two people who have custody of Astrid.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Oh, wait, the ones that made him, like, feel so much better. Because nothing's wrong. Nothing's wrong.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
I'm going to be honest, I don't think Lizbeth's going to get the message.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And were they close with Jonathan before this? Like, is this kind of, I guess I'm trying to figure out, like, is this in line with what they know about him? Like, do they have, like, any sort of context?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
So he was off, but he was supposed to be at work. Yes. Then where was he?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Listen, I don't want to take an especially deep dive into the mind of sexual predators, but I have to wonder, like, if he did do something to Richanda, he could have kind of gotten off on it. Like, the knowledge of what he did would kind of carry through and arouse him later, right?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
And are they bringing Kay up at all when he's in the hop seat for Richanda?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
That feels like it could be a motive for John to do something, though. Like, if he knew that she talked and hadn't been listened to the first time or he was afraid that maybe she would again.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
And I assume they've talked to all the friends and stuff and we're sure she actually even made it. on the run. Like, nothing happened to her wherever it is they're all staying?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
No, that's not suspicious at all, Ashley. What are you talking about?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
What about Melissa and Sheila's cases? Did they ever bring anything against him there?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
That's honestly what's been in the back of my mind this whole time. Has he ever been linked to any other cases?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
How does it even happen? This is like the best and kind of the only lead that they have.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
While you're on vacation with your husband to like... And then decide mid-run. Right. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
So he's giving pretty precise details that, I don't know, maybe only the killer would know.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
But John can't be there or with them right when he sees Kay, which he's already admitted to, like, a couple of times. Right. It feels like the only window that really matters here.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Was there ever a polygraph for John then? Because I feel like we would have learned he was a liar like a year earlier.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Hi, Crime Junkies. Ashley and I are officially on the road, and we had an amazing time at our first few shows. Thank you so much to all of the amazing Crime Junkies we saw last week in Indy, Detroit, and Nashville. If you haven't gotten your tickets for an upcoming Crime Junkie Life Rule number 10 tour stop yet, now is the time.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And in all this time, there are no like really viable suspects.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
The letter says, HPD, if you want to know who killed C. Henry and A. Atkinson, it will cost $100,000. Reply, Hugh Chronicle personal column, Munn 3-12-01 only. A lawyer will be hired to make sure you play straight. Anon. And Hugh Chronicle... Houston Chronicle. Is like the Houston Chronicle and Munn is Monday, right?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
The man wore a fishnet stocking over his face, black gloves, and a dark shirt and pants that matched, possibly a uniform. He held a long-barreled handgun in his left hand. "'Where's Randy?' he asked, referring to her boyfriend by name. He taunted her, putting the gun to her head and cocking it. He bound her hands behind her back with gray duct tape before taking cash from her purse."
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Then he duct taped her eyes and mouth shut, threw her on the bed, and shoved a bag or pillowcase over her head.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
I mean, to me, it's just as likely that he was a customer at the club.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
I'm sorry. There's no way that all of this is coincidental.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Wait, so that part might be coincidental. But when this guy attacked the first girl, he was looking for her boyfriend.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Calls him out by name. Maybe Cheryl and Andy's attack was about Andy. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Hold up. How old was that security guard that found Andy's car, uniform, military stance?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
So when everything with Lake Waco basically unraveled, did anyone go back to see if there could have been a connection?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Trust me, you do not want to miss the chance to experience a Crime Junkie episode live and in person. While you're at it, you can now shop some of our brand new exclusive tour merch collection online right now. To grab your tickets and to shop the new merch, head to CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
You can also follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
So this security guy is, like, what, rummaging through a random car he found? Like, that feels weird to me.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
But how did the security guard miss that? I mean, wasn't he in the car?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
A response like, oh, there are two missing kids in a bloody car.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
When I hear all of that, my mind instantly goes to like... Like the Lake Waco of it all, right?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
So theoretically, it could have just been one guy, but my money is on two.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Did they get any biologics from the autopsies? Like anything that they can get DNA from?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
But it makes you feel like the driver had to have live there or was close to someone who did live there if he like was at the complex like back and forth a couple times like he was there and then he wasn't and then he like you would think but all I know is that according to David police canvassed the complex and that didn't lead them to Marcus or to anyone who knew Marcus
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Yeah, but what about the people who knew the driver? I know we don't know who he is, but like he doesn't live there. But that guy has to have a tie there. To me, it's a chain, right? Like the person in the complex leads you to the driver. The driver leads you to who gave him the car. And like that goes all the way back to Marcus and why he doesn't have his car and where he is.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
I mean, you'd think. So those two prints were the only prints in the car, right? Like, I guess I thought you were saying that those were the only prints that weren't his.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
So Detective Filter... Not like smudged or smeared or incomplete.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
They're kind of like the same car. They definitely look incredibly similar.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Did they arrest anyone else in connection to it? I mean, it was more than one person, right?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Wait, how old is Charles? I'm wondering if he could have been the one seen driving Marcus's car?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Hold up. What's the motive? Charles got harassed? and then just snapped on Ethan?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
It like factory resets it. Yes. And it loses all the information.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Did anything prompt that move or was it just like kind of growing up, wanting your own space?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
But that could be why he's acting so strange around Marcus's family. He knows they're all going to find out about this and be upset about the drugs.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
And I don't know how like churchy they raised him, but I can see that maybe being a reason why he hit it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
And that's probably the reason he kept the school thing to himself. Like the disappointment that like not only is he disappointing them, but he's already disappointed them. So it's like one more thing. Right. Had they noticed any changes in Marcus's behavior, like looking back, like knowing or finding out about all this now?