Bozoma Saint John
Appearances
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
Yeah. Well, that's what's so beautiful about this experience in life, right? Is that like, we don't have to be one dimensional, that all things can be true at the same time. You know, it's the reason why it's like, I remember once shortly after Peter had died, I was sitting with a friend and she was telling me a story and I started laughing hysterically.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
You know, it was like, yeah, it was like from my belly, you know, the kind of laugh that makes you want to fall over and slap something, you know, that kind of laugh. And then almost stopping short because I was like, oh, I'm supposed to be sad. You know, I'm not supposed to laugh like this. The truth of the matter is that like, isn't that what life is?
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
You know, even when you're grieving, you can have belly laughs that take you out of that pain for however long that is. Maybe it's a second or maybe it's five minutes or maybe it's a few days. You know, so like if you're in a dark place, can you still be driven? Of course you can. You know, it's not a constant either, though.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
You know, we're like being gentle with yourself and knowing that, like, even when you're in the darkness, there will be times when you don't feel like getting up. But then it's not forever. you know, or to feel badly that you're driven, even though you're going through something, you know?
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
So like, even when, yeah, it was like, when I decided to move from New York and take the next job and people were like, shouldn't you be in a cave somewhere crying your eyes out? You know, like, why are you so ambitious? Sit down. You know? And yeah, I did question myself too. Like, why am I not sitting down somewhere? Like, why am I still out here pushing?
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
You know, like there were, there've been many, many moments like that. And I don't think that there has to be only one definition for how we are, you know? So like, yes, if you're in a place where you feel like the textbook expectation should be that you should take one step at a time, take it one day at a time. I hate that phrase, by the way.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
Oh, we should take it all. Do everything. All at once. Make it messy. Make it unpredictable. Defy logic. Like, why does it have to be so ordered? One day at a time for what? One step at a time for what? Sometimes I'm gonna run. Sometimes I'm gonna skip. Sometimes I'm gonna go backwards. Sometimes I'm gonna lay down. Sometimes I'm gonna sit up and look at the world.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
And sometimes, yes, I will take one step. But why does it have to be so ordered all the time? And so the freedom in that, I think allows us then to be multiple things at one time. So that yes, you can be driven and in a dark place. You can be hurting and still laugh. You can be healing and still trying to figure out how to avoid the next hurt.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
Like all of those things can be true at the same time and it doesn't have to mean that you're wrong or that you're doing it wrong. It's like there's no definition for how you're supposed to live your life. And I think that's also the other beautiful thing. The fact that no one has ever been where I am before, not a person on the planet.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
And so it's like, why would I subscribe to the steps somebody else thinks should be ordered for me? There's no plan like that.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
Yeah. So there's so much freedom in that.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
it's like you don't have to listen to anybody.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
You know, and so it's like, yes, you can be hurt and trying to heal, maybe taking the steps to healing, you know, whether that's therapy or you're working on something that you feel like or taking a risk that you would have been fearful of before, but still, like, being driven about this thing or, like, being, you know, like, okay, I'm going to accomplish this even though I'm not 100%.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
Like, that's the thing that always, like, I'm thinking about is that, like, Again, you don't have to have a full tank of gas to get to the other side of town. You know what I mean? Maybe you had a quarter tank and you know that it's going to take you like, you know, just up to that, like right at that quarter to get there. You know, it's like go anyway. Why does the tank have to be full?
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
You know what I mean? So for me, I'm constantly thinking about that, that like I'm still in the process of healing. You know, that whole statement about like, time heals all wounds. That's some bull . Okay, it does not.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
Yes. You just made me think of something because this idea of waiting to heal before you do the thing, that's the opposite of living the urgent life. Because if you're constantly waiting until you are or you're constantly waiting until that next thing happens or you get to the right spot, then you won't be fulfilled in your life.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
If I waited to be totally healed from the trauma of my husband dying, I would not have moved across the country. If I was waiting to be healed from the death of my first child, I would not be a mother today. All these things that we're waiting to accomplish or waiting to be fixed, before you can do the next thing. It's just, it's like a waste of time.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
And there's no shame.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
There's no shame in that. By the way, that's another like whole unlock. that I had for myself and in my career, believe it or not, was that I opened this vulnerability that I had closed off before. You know, this idea of the perfection, that things had to be great and complete in order to move to the next thing. And very quickly,
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
I mean, I was kind of thrown into it when I accepted the job with Jimmy. I had no idea what music streaming was. I'd never done that before. I was not an expert in it. But it didn't mean that I couldn't go do it. And guess what? I figured it out. You know what I mean?
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
Or like moving any, anything in my life, which has felt like, gosh, I need to like really have conquered this thing in order to move to the next one has been a lie. And it is actually how I counsel a lot of women, especially who are like early in their career or mid-career even, you know, that who are waiting. to rack all the things before they take the next risk.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
I'm just like, you know that that actually doesn't work. You can't wait until you've checked off every box before you jump to the next thing that you gotta do. You gotta leave some room for growth. Your cup is, if it's all the way full, how are you gonna put more stuff in it? You know what I'm saying? You gotta have a little bit open at the top in order to pour more experiences in there.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
So it's like, if you're ever just full to the brim, if you've checked off everything, then there's no more growth for you. So as I even look at myself, that is where I am now, where it's just like, there is no more growth if you're all the way full, if you're checked off everything before you take the next risk. Where are you gonna put the stuff that you're getting?
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
So yeah, it's like, leave the tank quarter full.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
Or get more cups. You know what I mean? It's like, maybe my corporate cup is full. I have a brand new cup.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
Absolutely, absolutely. But that's also, like I said, part of the learning of this, you know, which is just like, I don't have to have had things complete in order to move to the next thing. I'm sure there are people who would look at my career and say, oh, but you haven't done that thing yet. Don't you think you should do that before you retire? But like, do I need it? Probably not.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
And so it's like, why continue? Why continue to do that thing? So again, I think a lot of it really just has to do with self-reflection at the end of the day.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
you know, listening to your own spirit, listening to your own needs and wants, and making sure that you're not lying to yourself, you know, based on the stories that other people have told you, based on narratives that are running around the planet that you've accepted. as the truth and maybe we're lies. You know what I mean?
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
So I feel like there's such an opportunity for me too, you know, to re-look at everything and yes, be a healthier human and focus more on like, yeah, my physical health. And focus on my relationship with my daughter, you know, explore the planet in ways that I haven't before.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
You know, like in 2022, I did a little Instagram reel about this that I, every month last year, I worked out in a different country.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
It was fantastic.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
But, you know, it was like, God, what a dream, you know, to be in a place where I'm financially secure enough to do that.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
Where I have the time to do that.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
Yeah. And to take advantage of it now.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
Man, because like, what am I going to do when I'm 75? Well, hopefully I'll still be working out and still healthy. But you know what I'm saying? Like... Waiting for that is not the answer. So even in that I have urgency.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
You know, I understand why somebody would say that, you know, like you should always be hungry, like you should always be chasing. That's a good motivator, you know, to get the next thing so that you wake up and you want to go get it. But that's a terrible way to live. It's a complete I vehemently disagree with the concept that you should never be satisfied. You should be satisfied.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
You should be satisfied. You should wake up feeling satisfied with your life. It doesn't mean that you don't want the next thing. Of course you want the next thing. But if life were to end today, would you want to have lived an unsatisfied life? I really do think of Peter at those last days. You know, and think about all the things that he was unsatisfied about. I don't want that for myself.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
I don't want that for you. I don't think any of us should live that way. So be satisfied. You know, and that doesn't mean lesser than.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
Yes, be satisfied. Be satisfied with like how wonderful You have it. You know, even the least of us, even the people who are like, you know, in this terrible place, like I said, like we can't be satisfied. Like the day after Peter died, actually no, it was a few days later because we were having his funeral. He died on December 11th, 2013. It was four days before his 44th birthday.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
And so on his 44th birthday, December 15th, we had his funeral and made it a party. And I was sitting there and, you know, kind of in a haze. But then also, you know, that moment of clarity where I'm looking around the room and like his fraternity brothers are drinking beers and they're sharing stories about him. And, you know, my daughter's like sleeping on my mom's lap.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
And I've got my sisters like in the corner trying to busy themselves, you know, like getting out plates of food and whatnot and see people connecting.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
and it was the oddest thought you know i looked around i was just like wow like this is a this is a good this is a good group of people you know this is a great place to be to have this and so i was satisfied in that moment the most terrible thing had happened in my life but i was looking around and feeling very satisfied with who I had around me.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
And that I think is what I would like for all of us to consider. That even when things are bad and going wrong, you can still be satisfied. You can still feel like, this is it and it is okay.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
Yeah. Is that right? Yeah. Ten years in December.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
Can you explain a little bit about that? Well, first of all, I really appreciate what you just said and shared about your dad, you know, because I feel that for all of us who are living this life on this like hurtling rock that we call home, we don't always have to have had the same experience to understand essentially the concept of what I'm talking about. this need for urgency.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
And it's not necessarily about the rush through life, it's about the intention. Knowing, like you said, I wanna do these things, because what if? So then you're intentional about saying, okay, I wanna live a big life, or I wanna go do this thing that I'm dreaming of, or I wanna push a little harder. Because like, what if, right?
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
And the same thing for me in that, like, I don't think of the end of life in this morbid way where I'm just like, oh, today might be my last day. I don't think of it in a morbid way. It's very inspiring to me, actually. It makes me want to get up and go do the thing, you know? And again, it's not about a rush. It's like, I want to make the best use of my time.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
that I have, I don't know how long it is, but I want to make the best use of it. And I'm also conscious of the fact that I won't do everything. And so that means that I have to be very intentional about the things I choose to do. Because if you walk around thinking like, oh, I have the time, I'll just do everything at some point. then maybe you don't get to do anything at all.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
So I'm intentional in knowing that like, oh, okay, I might not get a chance to complete everything. So what's the most important thing? And then I want to do those things. And so at the time in December of 2013, when Peter passed away, we were there, you know, where the stories are true. You're sitting at the deathbed. and you're talking about all the things you wish you'd done.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
Oh, yeah. We talked about so much. Oh, man. The things he wanted to do, his hopes and dreams, what he wants for Lael, our daughter, like what he wanted for her in the future. You know, all of those things. And I was sitting there listening and thinking and crying and making promises and all of the things and knowing that I need to change the way I live.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
You know, he wouldn't have a chance to do it over. So I need to do it, you know? And it was such a dark time also because we were already going through so much on top of being at death's door, you know, that like our marriage had fallen apart. We had been separated for a couple of years already through so much.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
gosh, additional traumas that happened to us, misunderstandings, anger, you know, that we couldn't overcome with just love.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
Oh man, you think love conquers everything and no, it does not.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
Love is not enough. You know, love is not enough. And it was all of that turmoil, That led us to that moment where I am sitting, holding his hand, and his breath gets shallower and shallower. And thinking about all the things I would have done differently if I had a shot to do it again. It's not necessarily that like, oh, I wish life had turned out differently.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
It's just that I wish I had been motivated differently.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
Oh, man. I think at that time I was motivated by just my own need for my own life. You know, not really focused on anybody else's. And that sounds very selfish, but that's where I was. You know, it was not, I was a mother and a wife, but I was so only focused on myself.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
Yeah. At that time? Yeah. I mean, it's like, you know, there was so much that... had happened on my path to motherhood. And it's another one of the things that like, you know, now I talk about so openly because we also paint motherhood like it's supposed to be like this great, amazing thing that like, oh, you get pregnant.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, all this love shows up from nowhere. And you're just like encapsulated by this person. It's like, no, that actually doesn't happen all of the time.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
Moments of that might happen.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
And sitting there and being like, oh hell, I made a mistake. This is not what I wanted in my life. You know? And struggling with that. And there were so many times where I thought, about that. It was like, wow, is this life what I actually wanted? And so then at that moment in December of 2013, I was like, oh no, I have to make the life that I want. I have to make it.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
I have to be an active participant in it. You don't just sit back and let the life happen to you. You have to make it.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
This might sound funny, but I think logic is what surprised me most. The logic of things. You know, the writing down. It's almost like the writing down of the plan. You know, things that make sense. Because you're like, oh, I'm going to do these things. I'm logically going to take these steps in order to get to that thing, right?
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
And all of his regrets, everything that he wanted to do that he didn't get a chance to do was based on the logic of the steps to get to that thing that he never got to.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Making the to-do list. And then, yeah. And then it's like, oh, I'm going to do this, and I'm going to do that. All based on logic. Life is not made of logic. Life is magic. It's the accidental encounters. It's the things that you can't explain.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
The feeling that you get in your belly that makes you feel alive and glittery, or it makes you super sad, or you don't want to get out of bed, and the sky just looks gray. And then maybe one thing happens, you're like, oh, OK, I can do it. You know, that's life. And being open to that is actually what gives you the experiences.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
So therefore, when perhaps you don't accomplish everything that was on your plan, you still feel really happy about the things that you did do, because it was also magical. You know, and I'm not talking about like these big firework things. I'm talking about the little stuff too.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
You know, the new person that you meet on the way to somewhere, you know, or like the like meal that you had that you didn't think was gonna be delicious that you just really savored. It was just magically amazing, you know, and just being appreciative of those moments. So again, it's like the life is not just about like the big, big, big stuff. It's not the headlines.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
You know, so to me, it's like logic is what I then throw out the window.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
It's like, oh, I'm not going to live a logical life. I'm going to live a magical life. The kind that is open to all of the things I can't explain. You know, that like the writing down of the list and the making the steps. And I'm not saying that you walk around just like, oh, whatever happens today is what happens. You know, like, look, we all got to be responsible adults. Okay.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
But the truth of the matter is that, like, how many of our plans have been stopped because of logic? The things that you said, like, ah, well, shoot, I can't do that because of this reason and that reason and that reason. And sometimes it's other people's logic that actually stops you from doing the things you want to do. And so I want to stop that.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
I've been active in being like, every time I approach a new ambition or a new idea or like, oh, I want to take a trip here. And that logic starts to come in. I'm like, girl, where's that magic? You better just step out and let the magic find you. You know? And not stop yourself because the math is mathing.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
No, it doesn't make sense logically.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
Yes, to happen. Because I can't tell you how many things have happened in my life that don't make sense.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
The fact that I've had the career I've had doesn't make sense. It's not logical. There's no stat. Even when you look at things like, oh, you know how many black women CMOs have had jobs for like Fortune 50 companies? There's no math. There's no data point because it doesn't exist. But I exist. So can you explain that? No, you cannot.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
So opening yourself up to like these things is what actually creates your destiny to run the way that it should. I'll give you one example. When Peter died in December of 2013, I was at PepsiCo. I'd been there for 10 years. It was a great job. I'd done many iterations of things. And at that time, I was the head of music and entertainment marketing.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
And so I had been part of the team that did the deal with the NFL. for the Super Bowl halftime show. I put Beyonce on that stage. It was huge. I had a great, exciting career. And then Peter died. And I looked around and I was like, man, I think I want to do more things. Am I going to sit here for another 10 years in New York City doing this? Or have I had enough of this?
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
And as I formulated that thought, I went to, I think it was NBA All-Star or something like that. And I met somebody that I knew very lightly who told me that Jimmy Iovine and Dr. Dre had started their company, Beats Music, off of the back of Beats by Dre, and that they were looking for a head of marketing, would I be interested? And the job was in LA. My husband had been dead maybe two months.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
I had a four-year-old child that I was trying to figure out how to raise by myself. You know, like all these things. And so logic would tell you that, no, sit your down. You know what I mean?
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
situate your life, figure out how to be a widow and a single mom and the main breadwinner, like figure that stuff out, calm down, get some therapy, you know, just like sit and be quiet for a second, grieve, let a year go by and then figure out what you want to do. But instead I was like, it really doesn't make any sense for me to leave Pepsi, a long established company,
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
and go to Beats Music where it's barely a company.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
I didn't know what music streaming was. I had no idea what that was. I had no idea. But I came and came to LA and took a meeting with Jimmy and he was talking about stuff that I had no idea about. And when I resigned from PepsiCo to take the job, Everybody told me it was a bad idea. It was when I tell you there was not one person who supported it. Not even my mother. No one.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
Everybody thought I'd lost my mind. People thought I was acting out of grief. Maybe I was. But the magic was that that opportunity opened up the next 10 years of my life. It was the magic, the spark that I needed. It changed everything for me, Lewis. Everything.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
Well, my friend, that's a great unknown. I don't want to get to the end of my life and ask that question. I don't want to sit there and say like, oh man, what would I have done if I'd taken that leap? Just tried that other thing. Maybe you fail, but that's okay. You know, you can pick yourself up again.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
And so sometimes I look around and like, especially when I'm like, you know, talking to a friend who's just like, oh girl, I can't do that because of that. And it's just like, but why? Like, why don't you believe you can do it? You did that thing and that thing and that thing. And again, it doesn't have to be like the world changing thing that got headlines.
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
But like your everyday accomplishments and did this thing simply went into that workplace that you feel like demeans you. And you still had a smile on your face. Like what an accomplishment that is, you know? Or anything that you did. So it's like, why then do you not feel like you have the power to be able to overcome the things, even if they're unknown to you? Yeah, that's how I feel.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
You know, that I was like, well, if I look at myself, if I say it's me, then I'm better able to feel like, okay, I can make something else happen. I can be the one who chooses because I chose to come and I can choose to leave. And if I put the power over there, then it feels like I can't choose because I'm waiting for them to do the thing that's right. And so when I'm sitting at those tables,
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
And yes, almost always by myself. It is both frustrating to know that, um, I'm probably doing the right thing for the future, but also that I'm the one who has to take the brunt of it. You know, that, um, I actually, again, like I've been thinking a lot lately. Ever since I left my job. Doing a lot of thinking. And I was just like, damn, like the idea of hidden figures hurts so much.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
Because to think that perhaps you were the catalyst. or something, and then nobody remembers your name. Nobody gives you the credit. And that's what it feels like when I'm in the room. You know, I'm thinking, this is gonna be so great for the people who come after, but will anybody remember me? Will they remember my pain, this moment, this choice I made? And if not, is that okay?
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
Am I all right with it? Am I okay with the sacrifice? And if I'm being totally transparent and honest, I'm not. I'm not okay with it. I don't want to be hidden. I don't want to be forgotten. And yes, people can say, oh, but how can you be? You're going to be in the Hall of Fame. You're this and you're that. And people know your name. No, no, no. I want the credit. Of course you do.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
Yes. Because look, I think one of the most... obvious places and you know it happens a lot it happens every time but one of the most obvious i think for everyone who sees it will understand it was the moment i took the stage of the apple keynote wwdc where no other black person forget black no other black person had presented the software before. I mean, Steve Jobs stage, right?
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
You've got all of the known people on the stage, Eddie Cue and Craig Federici and Phil Schiller. They're the ones who present, right? And leading up to that moment, first of all, there was a lot of doubt that I should even do it, right? Because look, I'm a marketer. I'm not an engineer. I'm a Black woman, although nobody wants to say that out loud.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
Yeah, I'm like, uh-huh. And that whole statement about like, oh, I don't know if they'll believe you. Yeah, uh-huh, I know why. But Abby, your point about the allure of just aligning to make things easier, that was my choice that day too. Where it's like, look, everybody showed up in their jeans and button down shirt. Like a literal visual.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
I walked into the green room in the back of the stage and there were, it was just a rack of jeans. And... blue button down shirts and pink button down shirts and khaki colored things. And I just looked at it and I was standing there in my curly Afro, my very tight pink dress, my Louboutin stilettos with a little poof on the back too. How dare me, right?
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
A little poof on the back just to add insult to injury. And I was standing back there and it was like, you know, Tim Cook went first to start the presentation and then Eddie went and Eddie is supposed to introduce me. And I'm standing back there and I was just like, whew, one of these things is not like the other, you know, waiting for my turn.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
And when I went on that stage, I know it would have been easier for me too, by the way, if I had just put on the jeans and the button down. If I had just tried to look like everybody else, maybe that would be one less barrier.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
you know, than even how I appear to be. Not even, I hadn't even opened my mouth yet. I had not even presented one idea yet. Just how I look. And so for all of us who are showing up in these spaces, of course you just want to align. In that little moment of like just walking in the door, knowing everybody's going to turn and look at you.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
If you didn't have that hair, if you didn't have on that crazy outfit, if you weren't wearing those daggone earrings, if your nails weren't painted a certain way, if you weren't wearing those shoes, clickety clack, clack, clack. Here I come down the hallway. You know I'm coming because you heard my heels clicking. It would be so much easier. But I refuse. To do that.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
Because I do know all the people who are walking behind me. I am very aware of that. And it still hurts. Both of those things can be true. So no, I am not like some, you know, like humble martyr out here. I want my roses. Yes. I want them now. I can, yes, both can be true that I want it for them too, but I want mine. Mm-hmm. You know, and that's why I choose.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
That's why when I'm sitting there and I'm like, oh, you know what? This ain't right. Let me just, where's my purse at? Let me just pack my things and get up the hell out of here. Because I recognize that unless I do that, I will be that hidden figure. Nobody will know my name.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
That's right. That's right. Or when we are creating strategies, right. Or telling stories, especially as a, as a marketer, right. That's my whole job is to create narratives about things. And you have to make it for. the mass market, right? Meaning that my story doesn't matter in it. But how can that be? Very early on in my career, I contemplated that.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
I was like, so how am I supposed to create this narrative for white men when I've never been one? That's very strange. And I thought, I must be smarter than all the rest of y'all because if I can do it and you can't tell my story, oh, then I'm very fucking good because I could tell my story and yours. Oh, my God. That's where it started from, right? Because I was just like, oh, I see.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
So question. First question. Yes. Glennon. Yes. Are you still being an African auntie? Are you checking your WhatsApp?
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
You're trying to tell me that I'm not as good as you, but actually I'm better because I can do both. You could only do one. And then at some point I was like, oh, but wait, but my story is actually really important too. Mm-hmm. So then how do I put my story into the thing? You know, how do I add my perspective onto the story to really tell it?
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
It was so interesting how much resistance you can get when you're simply just trying to show up as yourself. It's still surprising to me. Most times I'm just like, but this can't be, like you can't really ignore Me, right? Like, you wouldn't be that overt about it. But no, it's true. Yes, we hide it in all the words. They're like, no, it's got to be mass market.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
It's got to hit, you know, the majority. And therefore, your story is not important. Your perspective is not important. Please consider everybody else before yourself. And perhaps that's also what is striking me because I've been conditioned that that's what I'm supposed to do. Whether it's for the opening the doors for everybody else, consider everybody else but myself.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
Or in the narrative telling or in the strategy setting, consider everybody else but myself. And I'm just at the point where I'm just like, no, I'm only considering myself. That's right. How about that? Yes.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
Yes, yes, yes, yes. And to appear... To be different, but not actually be different. And that was another thing that I've realized is that, look, I actually really do show up as myself, really. And so when that happens, people are just like, oh, but wait, I thought you would then just fit into our culture. because our culture is our thing and you're supposed to fit into it.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
And what's so interesting to me is, although I love the arts, I'm really a science gal, you know? And I'm like, molecules are so interesting. When you think about matter, it's like in any matter, it could be DNA, it could be water, it could be anything. You add a molecule into the matter and the whole matter changes. It doesn't matter what you're talking about.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
So if you consider that the matter is a culture, whether it's society or it's a company or it's a family, you have matter. And then the one molecule that enters that matter changes it. It is not the same. And so then you've got to contemplate, well, then, if that is true, because it's true in science, if I walk into a corporate culture, I am the molecule. The matter has to change.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
It's not even a choice. It has to change. So then why would I consider myself insignificant? Even if I'm just one. Because if you have a glass of water and you drop some red dye into it, regardless of how small that drop is, it changes. It's no longer the same.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
So that little drop can't be insignificant. So I am not insignificant.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
They don't want the change. They don't want the change because the change is also too hard. I think they really do want it because we all want things. You know what I mean? We all want things. But just as in the name of the... This podcast, like it's hard. It is hard. Like everything else, I don't think anything is just black and white.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
You know, I do believe that there is a desire to change, a sincere one. You know, a sincere acknowledgement that like, oh yes, okay, no, we are all the same here and we do need to have perspectives that are different. But then that difference comes and it's like, ooh, that's way too different. Can you just behave a certain way? You know, can you just not say the things
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
Can you not bring up that story when you're talking? Because that doesn't fit into the thing we're trying to say. Speaking of hard, I think it's important.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
The hardest part about communicating with white women is that they still think we're the same. Somehow that just being women means that we're the same. And that is not true. And again, I think it's like intellectually we all know that. But practically, do we know that? Emotionally, do we know that? I don't think so. And so then the idea of our united spirit.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
sort of energy and our united mission falls apart because we're still working inside of a society in which whiteness then is the superior. And so it's like the superiority of the white women experience is completely a giant as compared to mine. And so then mine doesn't really matter. So
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
the individual kind of struggles or other types of challenges that I have because there's so many other connection points in whiteness to white men that I simply don't have. Right. And so you would think, oh, well, look, I have the connection to women regardless of race. And then the white women have the connection to the men because of race.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
So then they're connected here to the men and they're connected to me because of women. So they're connected on two points and I'm connected on one. I'm dependent on that one. And so I'm already at a disadvantage. And so just understanding that as a literal practical thing, and that's just the bottom of it, right? Everything else like builds on top of it. But that is the most difficult.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
Actually getting the understanding, not just intellectually, but emotionally, that we're not on the same playing field is very, very difficult.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
With the white men. That's right. With the power. You know, it's a practical one of that. Do you remember in the Obama administration? You probably read this where they said that the women band together to help. amplify each other's voices, right, in meetings and whatnot. I thought that was such a beautiful thing. And it has taken root in corporate.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
Like, you can see it, you know, where women say, okay, we're getting in there. You have an idea. I'm going to support your idea. You know, it's like, and that's such a beautiful thing. But what is happening also is that in those situations, It is not just my voice that needs to be heard, but my perspective and my story, which sometimes needs to lead.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
But I find that white women have a hard time following black women. And so then it's like that whole affirmation, like rah, rah, rah, let's support each other, only is also One Direction. So there's the meetings before the meetings, but there are meetings after the meetings, right? The meetings after the meetings are the ones that are just like, oh, I'm so glad you said that.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
And, you know, did you hear me when I supported you? And I'm like, so you kind of didn't. You kind of said my idea again, and then they heard you. That's kind of what happened. And it's like, oh, no, no, no. But we still got the point across. Like we, the women, we said the thing and we made the point. And I'm like, no, no, no. It was my thing. And then you took it. It made it yours.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
And then you came back and said, oh, it's ours. Nobody remembers that I said it because you said it. But that's the thing. It's like, again, I'm just like, ah! You know, it's like sometimes you just feel so frustrated because I'm just like, where is my voice? You know, it's like, yes, we are going further because the woman's story went forward, but it was taken forward by the white woman.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
And she didn't even acknowledge me. Yes. And so then it's like, okay, well, here I am again by my damn self.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
Yes. And by the way, everybody thinks you're a bitch. Yeah. You know how many times I've been called arrogant, selfish, a bitch? You know how many times? All the time. And I'm like, no, I'm not selfish. I'm not a bitch. I'm just asking to be acknowledged. Yep. I'm just asking to be seen. That's it. It is the lowest of things I'm asking for. The lowest.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
I didn't even ask you to call me a genius, which I fucking am.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
I just asked you to see me. That's it. That's it.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
You know what I mean? Because I said, oh, no, it wasn't your idea. It was my idea. Oh, this is teamwork, though. Oh, really? You seem to be the only one in the team.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
Glennon, can we also pause just there for a second? Because that moment also just needs to be acknowledged because when you and I talked, you said the thing that most white women don't say. You were like, how do I help your voice? And I was just like, oh, shit. She wanted to know how to help amplify my voice. It literally knocked me off my feet.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
You know, because I was just like, man, I've been in so many environments, conversations with very well-meaning people. Again, I don't think everything is black and white. Things are very great. You know, people who mean well, they want to help and all that. But they just take your voice and then they put theirs on it and it changes. Then it's out and you can't get it back.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
But what you said in that moment is what then led me to say, I feel like I'm just screaming into the wind. Nobody hears me. Then it was like, it almost became an easy solution after that. Yeah, it did. It was like, of course, of course, of course. You should just be heard. How do I put you on the platform so you can be heard? Exactly.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
But it was such a fundamentally different question from everybody else. So we have to acknowledge that. That was not just because I answered, but because you asked the question.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
Oh, man. This is when I feel like the ancestors or the spirits who are not yet here, the ones who are waiting, they just all came through. It really does not feel like... Our idea was just conduit to let it be born because it just felt that easy. It was like as soon as we just stopped, you ask the question. It was like a portal being opened. You ask the question. We went back. We were like, okay.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
Because I was exhausted. Again, frankly, honestly, I was just exhausted. I was like, I don't want to talk to nobody. Y'all can keep talking. I'm going to be sitting over here resting my vocal cords.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
And from that moment, it was like, look, okay, let's figure out, like, how do we open up our contact lists and find the white women who have these enormous platforms? And how do we get them off of there? How do we get them off? That's good. We don't need them saying our thing. How do we get them out, though? But we still want their platform.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
And it was amazing to think that all we had to do was ask. Yep. ask the right people who are willing to say, oh, okay, let me just move over. And again, I don't want to pretend like that was an easy thing either, because look, I feel like Instagram or social media platforms are, to some degree, feel even more sacred to people than their own homes. Isn't that interesting?
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
You'll invite somebody over to your house to look in your fridge much quicker than you would say, oh, go ahead and just say whatever you want on my Instagram. What if they say something crazy? What if they say something you don't like? What if they say something that's offensive? You don't know what that person's going to say. It's like, how scary is that?
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
The bravery on both sides of this incredible movement that we made of white women being brave and vulnerable enough to say, look, I'm going to get out the way. You're the keys to the house. You just do whatever you want. And then the bravery and tirelessness of Black women who were saying, okay, I'm going to say it one more time.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
I'm going to say the truth and I'm going to be unafraid of what people are going to say about me because they don't know me. They might judge me. I'm going to say it anyway. And let me tell you, even for me, right? Somebody who's, I'm out, I'm talking, I'm saying the things. And all of the work that was going into creating this movement was I remember I called Lovey.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
It was like, we had told everybody to go online at like noon or something like that. And I swear to you, it was like 1155. And I called Lovey in a panic. And I was like, oh, I forgot. I'm supposed to do it too. I remember that. I totally forgot. I completely forgot. Somehow that completely escaped me. And then I was just like, how am I going to do that? I'm so tired.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
I don't even know what I'm going to say. I didn't even start thinking about it. And then I got afraid. I was like, what if I say the wrong thing? There's so much expectation. Like, I don't know what I'm going to do. I was worried about my outfit. Forgot what I was going to say. And then after I was done saying what I wanted to say, I fell out. exhausted, completely drained.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
And so I continuously think about that too when we're, you know, I think about like the corporate settings or these business settings where it's like, it takes so much energy to show up, to say the thing bravely, to go back outside of that space and still continue without laying down and taking a break. You got to do that day after day after day after day.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
It is a miracle that we're still able to do this. Look, I had to give myself a pep talk the other day. I looked at myself in the mirror and I was like, girl, you are just a miracle. You are a miracle. Like the fact that you are where you are, from where you came from, Withstanding what you've been through, it is a miracle that you're here smiling with that clear-ass melanin skin of yours.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
Looking as good as you do. Having a happy spirit. Raising an incredible daughter. Being an awesome friend. You're a miracle. So go ahead. Keep your head up.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
Oh, Lael. I don't even know where to start with that, you know? Because Lael is my rainbow baby. I lost a daughter before Lael, Eve. My first. And I lost her the day she was born, which was just devastating and crushing. That's to put it mildly. And three months after I lost Eve, I was like, I want to have another baby. I want to be pregnant. My doctor was like, are you out of your mind? Yeah.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
I'm very, very disappointed. Because Lovey and I taught you about WhatsApp and the importance of it. If you were going to be a true African auntie, you have to check your WhatsApp because that's how the messages come. And I sent you a video from this morning. Wait, hold on. Let me see if I can just play it here so you can see it. Maybe you won't hear the sound. This was critical this morning.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
Yeah. All of that. All of that. Yes. Yes. I am also in awe. It's amazing. All the things. It doesn't actually make sense because the stats are not in my favor and have never been. And so it is. Yes. It strikes me as awe inspiring, too. Yeah. Honey, do you remember the first time we met? Of course.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
Sit your ass down and let your body heal. And I was like, no, I'm determined. No, this is what I want. This is what I want. And the thing is that like, maybe looking back now is again, maybe reaction to trauma, right? Feeling like, Ooh, I was, I was supposed to be a mom and then I'm not a mom. So now I got to be a mom. I'm going to do everything in my power to do that.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
As soon as I got pregnant, I was terrified. Like sheer, I'm talking about like sheer terror. Trying to think of every way to get out. Like, okay, I made a mistake again. Like I made a mistake. It's my fault. I wasn't supposed to do this. I don't know why I did it. Okay. But I held on and held on and held on. Lael was born two and a half months early. And I prayed every single day of my pregnancy.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
And every single moment of my labor, that she would be born. Alive, breathing, kicking, crying, anything. And I promised God, I was like, if she lived, that I would name her for him. Because I said, La El, meaning belonging to God. And she was born on May 29th. 2009. Same day as my sister. Yes. It was birthday.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
And, um, the doctor prepped both Peter and I that, uh, because she was premature because they'd given me a bunch of steroids to help her lungs develop. So she could breathe. That's unfortunately what happened to Eve was that she just couldn't breathe. And, um, He says, she's probably not going to make a sound. You won't be able to hold her. We're going to deliver her and then she's going to go.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
So just be prepared for that. And Lael came out like lightning. You know, it was like a crack in the air. She's like, wah, scream. And I, I mean, I was in such awe of her in that moment. I was like, ah. I've delivered a warrior, a real, like a real life warrior. And I refuse to let them take her. Cause I was just like, Oh no, no, no. She's, she's fine.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
And when I tell you, I did one of those, like in the movies, you know, where you just reach down and grab the kid. That's what I did. I was like, no, she's mine. Ripped her right out of my womb. Put her on my chest. Oh, took in the scent of her, her heartbeat, the thin, translucent skin that she had, and felt every inch of her. She was not bigger than one palm, but I felt it, all of it.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
And in the months that followed, you know, she was in the hospital for a while. I prayed every day. She came home right before her due date. I thought, now I'm responsible for this warrior, you know, to show her the way, to make her understand that her life is such a gift, you know, that she was so wanted, so needed, not just for like my own salvation and belief and faith,
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
but that she is here for such a great purpose. I mean, we all are, but I believe it for her. I know she's destined for something great. I don't know what that is. And I won't try to force it. Whatever the path is, I will follow it because there is no math that says she should be here, but yet she is. And so my hope is that she's just going to walk in her destiny and fulfill it.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
I will. I will. And you already know, it's like, you know, the process of... writing is so, so difficult. Um, but this, this was, uh, it's been a long time coming, you know? And, um, I'm, I was ready. The moment I sat down, I was ready. I wasn't ready a moment before that. But as soon as I sat down, it was like, everything just started coming.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
And so, um, I'm telling all of it, you know, all of the pain, all of the triumph, all of, All the things.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
Yes. Either the strong or the soft, right?
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
Oh, rememberable. Yes, you were rememberable. You were rememberable because also I had seen both of you. separately before I saw you in person, obviously. Abby, clearly. Hello. The whole world had seen you already. I knew that. I was very excited about that. Glennon, I don't even know if I even told you this. I first saw you on Oprah stage at USC. Oh, I didn't know that.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
I was only able to be there for like one session and it was yours. And I sat in the audience and then this sprite of a person... came across the stage and I was like, oh, this is the most interesting white woman I have ever seen in my life. Like, I was like, oh, okay, yeah. Her, that one. This one. Oh. And honest. You know, I hadn't heard such honesty before.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
So by the time we got to the Together live tour, oh, I knew exactly who in the hell y'all were. I did not know that. And you did not disappoint. Oh, that's good. I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Still honest. Even backstage, still honest. So I was very, very impressed by you both in person. Thank you both so much.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
It is so hard to articulate. It really is. It's hard to articulate because of that hard place of trying to figure out whether or not The problem is you or the problem is them. You know, when they say like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, it's not. It's not. It's not you. It's me. How many times do you have to say that before you realize that? No, no, it's actually not me at all. It's them. Yes.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
It was God talking to me this morning. Okay. What did God say to you? God said this. Can you kind of see? God said. It's my mother. What? And her shirt says I can do hard things.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
And then the disappointment in that. In knowing that you chose, you decided. And they were the problem. Like, to be able to admit that is so hard. You know, so then, yeah, you spend the time trying to prove that you actually were not wrong. That you chose right. That's the position you spend your energy doing. So that's what happens to me, too.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
That often I'm in a situation and I'm like, oh, yeah, no, no, no. I chose right because I'm good at choosing. I've thought about it. I have followed my intuition. God told me. And I moved. I went. And then at some point, you're like, uh-oh. I don't think this is right. Yes. But I've spent so much time then trying to convince myself that I wasn't wrong. And that it must be me. That if I'm only...
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
smarter, if I'm only more likable, if I'm only wittier, if I'm only more amenable, then maybe I'm not wrong. Because how could I be wrong? I know myself. I take no shit. I could never be wrong in that. It's become very humbling, actually. We were talking about like being strong and soft. It's like you can be self-assured and also humble and humble in knowing that sometimes you get it wrong.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
Sometimes you get it wrong again and again and again and again. That's right. In that wrongness, it's okay. You still survive. You can be wrong. You know, I'm very comfortable in being wrong now. Very, very comfortable. I'm like, oh, wrong turn again.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
You missed your turn.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
This morning? This morning. I came in from the gym and she was in the kitchen. And she was dancing around, wearing a shirt that said, I can do hard things. And I looked at her and I was just like, where did that come from? And she was like, oh, do you like it? I was like, why did you do that? And she was like, oh, this is just a shirt. I just put it on.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
It's me. It's me. It's not them. It's me. And that is such a hard thing. It is a hard thing to acknowledge. It's a hard thing to accept, you know, and then it's a hard thing to correct.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
And I'm forgiving me. I'm forgiving me for making the wrong choice again. We're so hard on ourselves. Beat yourself up. I should have known better. I've seen it before. I should have seen it again. Right? And so then it's like the forgiving myself. And I'm talking about me. I constantly have to forgive myself for sometimes making the wrong call for myself. You know, it's so much easier, right?
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
To like forgive other people. Yeah. So much. Not sometimes it's hard, but it's so much easier to say, oh, well, that person made a mistake. Like if I look at my daughter. And she makes a mistake, right? I'm like, oh, hon, it's fine. You're still an amazing person. Like that was just, that was just, it was bad for the moment. It's okay. It's okay. We're going to figure it out. Right?
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
I encourage her that she can make mistakes and that she can turn around and do better. But yet for myself, oh, I could spend months, you know, saying like, but why did you do that? You knew better. You know, and that's what becomes so hard about the staying or the going. How fast can I forgive myself for making the wrong decision?
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
Will determine how quickly I'm able to get out and correct myself.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
Ooh, yes. It's like- Yes. I was having a conversation with a friend and I was like, you know that time, you know when you hit your shin? And that moment between knowing you've hit your shin and when the pain sets in is like the worst. Because you're just sitting there waiting for the pain to come. You're like, oh, I know this is going to hurt.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
That moment right there is what sometimes we're sitting in. Because you don't want the pain to come. And so then we're sitting there being like, ooh, I made a mistake. Uh-oh, I hit my shin. How long can I wait before the pain sets in?
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
We both freaked out when I told her what was going on today. Oh, my gosh. So I sent it to you on WhatsApp and look at you. You missed the message.
We Can Do Hard Things
Being the Boss of Yourself with RHOBH’s Bozoma Saint John (Best Of)
Yeah, yeah. No, look, Abby, thank you for that perspective, because I do often need the reminder of that too. And so I think both can be true. Part of the reason why I... Stopped looking at them as the cause or the reason why sometimes something didn't work or, you know, for me to figure that out is that I felt like I was giving my power away. And perhaps that's a survival mechanism.