Ashley Flowers

Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers.

Crime Junkie

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And the agent was like, yeah, like, OK, we'll talk to you, but like, don't need to hear it. He only killed four people in the state. And I'm like, wait, how do you know he only killed four people in Washington? I feel like that's like news. Yeah. And he's like, but he told us that.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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Okay. So he said he didn't do it. So they think he didn't do it. We tried to write to him when he was in prison just to see if he would talk to us. We haven't heard back from him. Which brings me to the third person I want to go deep into. And I told you, everyone has like their person, like detectives. And for Ray Martinez, this next one is interesting.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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And for me, he's the person, whether or not he had anything to do with Peggy's case, I am very interested in because I think there is a much bigger story behind him. And that is local ophthalmologist Dr. Richard Hammond. Now, in 1987, this dude is raising no red flags. He has a thriving practice. He has a wife, two teenage kids, like living the American dream.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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Except for, you know, the one red flag they raised about Tim in that he lived really close to the crime scene. In fact, you could see the crime scene from his primary bedroom window.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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Now, Ray Martinez, one of the detectives we talked about who was like first on the scene for Peggy's case last time, he said a lot of people were quick to write Matt off. Maybe because of his behavior, like he was acting how they expected. Maybe because he had an alibi. If you remember, Matt said that he had met that woman, maybe Sean.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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No, God forbid. So, I mean, he was a part of the initial canvas where they like came around. Did you see anything, hear anything? Him and his wife were home that night, but they didn't see or hear anything. And so they moved on. Again, no red flags. Plenty of red flags, though, come March of 1995.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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That's when a young woman at Colorado State University found this note card on their, like, job board for someone who needed a house sitter. The Hammonds were going out of town. She was going to come house sit. She brought her friend with her. And, you know, she's getting the tour of the house. Your room will be in the basement. You can use this bathroom. But, you know, make yourself at home.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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Use the house, whatever. So her and her friend are there, hanging out. There's something weird about the basement bathroom. Like they keep hearing something. Now, I imagine if it were me and I was by myself... I would be like, I'll just use the upstairs bathroom. But she's not alone. She has a friend with her. Right.

Crime Junkie

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You got your crime junkie BFF with you and you're like, today's the day we're going to solve the mystery. Absolutely. So they start snooping around, right? Like they get a flashlight. They're going all around the bathroom and it's like they turn the light on. They hear the sound. They turn the light off. There's no sound on, off, on, off.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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Well, they end up getting a flashlight and they realize that there are cameras in the vents. Plural cameras. Cameras. But the cameras aren't set up like in the bathroom. They're set up from the room next door. So they go out the hall and go to that room. But the door, the knob is like won't turn. It's locked. And again, if I were alone, I'd be like, is this where I stop?

Crime Junkie

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But you have your BFF with you.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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So they get their paperclips, whatever. And as they're like getting ready to pick this lock, what they realize is that even though it was locked, the knob wouldn't turn. When it was pulled shut, it didn't latch all the way. So all they have to do is push it open. And when they go inside, they see cameras. They see recording equipment.

Crime Junkie

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They see filing cabinets and a quote, uncountable amount of videotapes. And that's when the one girl freezes and she's like, I think we need to phone a friend.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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I think they're hoping that this isn't as bad as they think it is. But when they phone this friend and they call somebody who used to be a cop, he, quote, knows a lot about videotapes. Very 1995. But he gets here and he's like, no, this is worse. We need to call the real police. Quickly, the real police descend on this place and it's just worse than you could have imagined.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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I mean, they even find this index on top one of the filing cabinets and it's like got ages, names, dates. Is it a shower shot? Is it a toilet shot? Is it a close up shot? And when I say close up, this isn't just someone sitting on the toilet. I mean, this is zoomed into their genitals. Yeah. And many of these names on the list are minors, like kids, his kids go to school with.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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Again, just met her, didn't even remember her name, but he was with her till last call. Then she's at his place till like 3, 3.30 in the morning. And a lot of what you'll see about Peggy's death is that she died between 1 and 3 a.m., which, yes, Matt would have an alibi. Except when we got access to a lot of the investigative files, what we realize is in the report, it's actually a wider range.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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I know. And that's not the only like thing they're piecing together. So like, because this is happening in the same place, it's a lot of the same people who were called for Peggy's case. One of them being Sergeant Ray Martinez. And he says when he first gets this call to respond, he's like... Hammond. Like, why do I know the name Hammond? And then it hits him.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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He's like, during our canvassing, we went to his house. And then all of a sudden, he's like putting the pieces together.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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Full-on naked mole rat in a hotel room? Dude, I don't know what to think of this. I—if you, like, look at what the people around him said who were, like, supportive of him— In a way of saying like he couldn't do anything violent. They would say that he was very into bodybuilding. I, you know, I still try and find like old archives of like, were there competitions?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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Like, was this something he was actively doing for how long? Because like, I want to know, is this guy near smooth all the time or just on this day that he died? Feels important. I don't know. But the people who supported him, and support's the wrong word because nobody was like, well, we'll get there.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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But his wife basically was like, I didn't know any of the videotape stuff was happening, but he's not capable of something violent.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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And that's the thing. I have such a hard time understanding. We tried reaching out to her. We weren't able to get in touch. But I... I don't know how, like, she would, because she said she was totally blindsided. She, like, didn't have any idea what was happening in her home, which is just, like, quick PSA to people. Like, if your husband has a locked room in the basement. Maybe go in it.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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Of, yeah, of the home you share, you're allowed to ask questions. But I don't know what their dynamic was. Like, you know, when they gave her immunity deal to talk, she paints, like, a very vanilla picture of their life. She says that, like, she would make dinner from scratch. He'd come home at 7 p.m. They'd eat dinner together as a family. Their kids would do homework.

Crime Junkie

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And then, like, they wouldn't even watch TV. Like, they were, you know, all-American family.

Crime Junkie

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I don't think so either. But anyways, it seemed like, again, she didn't, at least from what I've seen, didn't give any indication that there was, like, dark parts of her marriage. She was surprised by this. So he gets arrested. He gets released on a $5,000 bond. And it's when he's released that he goes to that Denver hotel and he dies by suicide.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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I mean, they settle on one to three, but the true range of time is between 1 a.m. and 5 a.m., meaning that there's potentially an hour and a half, two hours that Matt is unaccounted for if she died in those later time frame. The other thing, which I haven't told anyone yet, been saving this up my sleeve, is that when Peggy was found, in her purse was a note that she had written to Matt.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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He has a cyanide drip to his leg that, I mean, is so corrosive it gets like down to the bone. And... It's interesting the way that things play out after he dies, because when I say like people like supported him, there were people who kind of came out of the woodwork.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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And there was like this battle when you look at the newspapers of like reporters reporting on what happened and then people saying that they shouldn't because it's just making things worse. And it kind of all starts with Richard's suicide notes. I'm going to have you read that.

Crime Junkie

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So he puts it on the media that, yes, I did this thing, but like I have to die because they're so bloodthirsty. They like they're making this bigger than it has to be. And they're hurting people like I'm just going to go away because of what they're doing.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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That's true. So then this is when the back and forth comes. And there are people who come out in support of what he said. And like the media should just stop. We should drop it. Like there's this active campaign to just make this go away. And just to prove the point, I want you to read something, not the whole thing, but part of what was written by a woman named Pam Hurley Nagel in the paper.

Crime Junkie

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Was it? Here's the thing, I don't think that's a question we can answer because of how things unfold next. Hmm. So after his arrest and his death, they continue to find more things. They find a secret storage unit no one knew about with Rubbermaid tub after Rubbermaid tub of more videotapes, pornographic materials, receipts, sex toys.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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They find out he had a secret bank account that people didn't know about. They find this, like, waist belt contraption that, like, hooked onto his belt and had all these little, like, sharp instruments that came out of it. Like, what do you need that for?

Crime Junkie

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But the reason I say we don't know the extent is because after all this is collected, everything from his home, from this storage unit, it is all taken and over the course of, like, eight hours, burned. Like, completely destroyed. Wow. And Jim Broderick, like some people were at least asking questions about this.

Crime Junkie

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And our guy Jim Broderick is back to give a quote to the Denver Post about why they destroyed all of this evidence in this case. And he said, quote, should we re-victimize all these women by telling them they are victims? So really, it's an effort to protect them, to preserve these victims' rights. Yeah.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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No, the math isn't mathing. And the thing I have the biggest problem with is this idea, the last line, to preserve these victims' rights. That's why we destroyed this. By destroying it. And not, like, with their permission or anything.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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Yeah, they didn't have it. They made the choice for them to preserve their rights. But by destroying it, what they did was actually take away any future right they might have for repercussions. They can no longer go after Hammond's estate. Were there other people on those tapes that they could go after?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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Seemingly that very evening she died. And so Britt, I'm going to have you read the note.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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We'll never know because by the way, when they destroyed everything, they had not viewed most of it. Like they just took it all away without knowing what was on the majority of those tapes, which is bananas to me. And the whole way that these were destroyed, when they looked into this, this went against every policy and procedure they had in place about how to deal with evidence.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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It just all goes up in smoke. Literally. Burned it. Yes. And listen. Jim Broderick would have you believe that they did this for a noble reason. And I do think there are people out there doing noble things for noble reasons. I haven't seen a whole lot of them. Love to meet more. Yes.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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But in the theme of always going a layer deeper, which is our new Crime Junkie Life rule, I like to ask not just what happened, but why do we think it happened? Well... Here's a fun fact. In the couple of days between when Hammond was arrested, but before he died, they were having to think about, like, taking this to a trial, like there could be a case around this.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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And they were going to have to appoint a special prosecutor because they quickly found out that members of the DA's office, quote, had been guests at Hammond's home and may have been videotaped.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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But they are quick to write this off. Like, same way when Tim, right, when he gets exonerated, they're like, let's just make this go away. And when this happened, they wanted this to go away. So much so that they were even writing off stories that made no sense. Like, people were like, oh, he wouldn't have hurt Peggy because, like, he didn't even use a scalpel.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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Yes, he was a doctor in surgical precision, all that, but he didn't even use scalpels. But like a guy who he ran the practice with was like, yeah, we absolutely do. And there's an affidavit from a woman who's like, he literally used a scalpel on me.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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And just to show you how far under the rug they were pushing this thing, everything in the paper like at the time was about the videotapes or whatever. Nobody publicly was connecting this guy to Peggy Hetrick in 1995. And nobody was telling Peggy's family about him, even behind the scenes. Tom didn't find out about Dr. Hammond until years later. And the way he found out was bananas.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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So the defense never knew about any of that. Not just the Hammond stuff, but like so much of what we've talked about. And in looking at the file, when I say there's more to be done, I mean, I also was coming across names of people it doesn't seem like they really dug into. A guy named Greg Case, who she was dating at the time. Derek Cordova, who she had gone out with in the past.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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A guy named Tim Matthews, who apparently liked Peggy and was jealous of Matt. And I'm not saying those guys had anything to do with anything. But to me, those are people who were crazy. clearly close to her, who hung out with her, who maybe were with her in like times leading up to her death. They were in her circle. I know.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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And so when I say that more can be done, like I don't think we can just rely on DNA and like call it quits. I think there's going to have to be legwork. And I think there's still a lot of legwork that can be done even decades later. Right.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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So we did get some partial profiles and none of those matched him. So there were some important ones. There was one on the front waistband of Peggy's underwear and everything we have comes from touch DNA. Right. There's there was no like semen or bodily fluids. And I think their thinking was that the killer likely was the one who pulled her pants down. So maybe they'd get touch DNA.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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No, no, this is in her bag. And so Matt actually lived even closer to the prime minister than Peggy did. So there are like, you know, two possibilities here. Either she goes and like puts this on Matt's door and then she goes out. She ends up getting back into her place and then goes back to Matt's and collects the note because she no longer needs to show up at his place at 2 a.m.

Crime Junkie

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Then they got some samples from under her arms, coat, boots, pants. There was a single full profile on her sleeve. But like, guess what? It turned out to be the police who weren't wearing gloves. So cross that one out. And while it hasn't been on record that they've gotten DNA from like all three of the people I've talked about, right? Matt Zollner, Donnie Long, Richard Hammond.

Crime Junkie

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I do know that they got one person's DNA for comparison. And it is comparison, right? There's no full profile to put into CODIS. And one of those three people did match the touch DNA on the underwear. Not all the places, but the touch DNA on the underwear. And that was Matt Zollner.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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Right. Like if it was Tim's, right, it totally would have been. Yeah. That's the question a lot of people are asking. And for Linda, she thinks it should be enough.

Crime Junkie

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Now, I think it's important to note that I don't think that at this point you can take a case to trial just based on that one piece of DNA. There's a lot that has to be explained at this point. I mean, and again, it's touch DNA. You don't know how it got there, when it got there. And it's only one of the profiles that was found on her. Yes. And we know that they had contact, right?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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Like they're going to dinner. They like they saw each other that night. Mm hmm. I think it is important. I think it is meaningful. And I think that is like when you talk about a lead that tells you where to focus, I think that's telling you where to focus. However, there is other DNA that's going to have to be explained away.

Crime Junkie

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You're going to have to prove it in a court of law, and there's legwork that can be done. You also have, when I think about DNA, the Missy Woods of it all. If anyone remembers our JonBenet Ramsey episode, there is a DNA tech in Colorado who was there from 90s to 2023. Mm-hmm. Her name's Missy Woods.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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So all of her cases are getting called into question. I don't know if she touched this. And I know we sent some stuff to Holland, but stuff was stored in Colorado. Some of it was tested in Colorado. Again, I'm only saying all of this because while I think this DNA is important, you are going to have to back it up with legwork.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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Or she writes the note, goes out, ends up getting back into her place before she ever drops the note off. She's in. It doesn't even matter anymore. And it's like a moot point. It's like living in her purse and maybe she forgot about it. I don't know.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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We asked about that and people who believe that Matt did this, they think that maybe he was trying to like throw people off his trail by doing that. But the precision of it. I know. I know. And listen, who's to say there isn't a world where someone killed Peggy and then someone else came along and did something, right? Like...

Crime Junkie

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Richard Hammond had insomnia and could see that feel from his bedroom window. I don't think he wants to call police and alert them to what he's doing in his place. You know what I mean? And I'm not saying I don't know. I don't know. The reason that a lot of things might not fit is because maybe there isn't just one answer. And.

Crime Junkie

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Another problem that we're going to face when it comes to making a case is that like you will have this Richard Hammond thing that is like very open ended. Again, it can never be buttoned up. Right. We don't know if Peggy was on one of those tapes because some powerful people made sure we would never know what was on those tapes, who was on those tapes.

Crime Junkie

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And if you came to the live show, this is where we started to wrap things up. But I mean, as a lot of people might have noticed by now, like the theme of these stories is going a layer deeper.

Crime Junkie

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So while Britt and I were on tour, I sent some of our reporters back to Colorado to do some more digging, some more door knocking and like boots on the ground work, mostly because I couldn't shake the feeling that there is more to this Dr. Hammond story. Right.

Crime Junkie

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I don't know. The way that everyone made it go away so fast and like the operation we learned he had set up feels so much bigger. So we got our hands on some investigative reports from Hammond's case. And I was disappointed to see that police just straight up stopped investigating after he died. I mean, not surprised, but disappointed.

Crime Junkie

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Again, at the time they said it was all to protect the victims, blah, blah, blah. But the question I have is like no one can say for sure that Hammond didn't sell or share the tapes. What we learned is that his video setup was professional. It was elaborate. And his tape catalogs were organized like a library. And Hammond would even label the tapes by like date, by victim's initials.

Crime Junkie

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But some of the tapes were also labeled ready tapes.

Crime Junkie

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I don't know. Distribution? To go somewhere? Our reporting team tracked down one of Hammond's victims, and she filled in some blanks for us. And prepare to be disappointed yet again, because she told us that not only did police never ask their opinions on destroying the evidence, which we assumed...

Crime Junkie

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Like, what did he say about it? Well, that's the thing. So based on the files that I've seen, it doesn't appear like they ask him about it, which like maybe they're just writing it off. But to me, it feels like it feels really interesting. Like, did she plan on coming to your place? Did you know she was planning on coming to your place?

Crime Junkie

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But when detectives were interviewing the victims, they were asking these victims if they were in on it.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 2

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The cops were asking these teenage girls if they were performing for the cameras. Like, did anyone tell you where to stand and what to do? And on top of that, she said that Fort Collins PD never once offered to let these teen girls have a parent or trusted adult in the room with them during their interviews. So it just feels like the victims have never once had a voice in that case.

Crime Junkie

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Like every decision was made for them, even after the cops basically treated them like suspects. Oh, and remember how I told you, like we found out that like there was a file that said some of the DA's office had socialized at Hammond's, might be on the tapes, whatever. Well, when we finally got to track down Judge Terry Gilmore, that was obviously one of the things we asked him specifically about.

Crime Junkie

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We weren't able to talk to anyone else. And he confirmed that the destruction of the tapes did go against regular policy. And he admitted to knowing Dr. Hammond personally before his arrest. But he says that he only socialized with him one time and that he was never at the doctor's home. And that's kind of where that ended. Okay.

Crime Junkie

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And then there's one more thing that I want to mention before we wrap things up on Hammond. So we got a hold of a woman who in 1988-ish went to the eye clinic where Hammond worked for an emergency. Like her son got like a sandy snowball lodged in his eye or whatever. Now, Hammond is not the regular doctor, but he was the one on call that weekend. So they're alone in the eye clinic with him.

Crime Junkie

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And Dr. Hammond was treating the boy. He's like 9 or 10. And his mom had to use the restroom. So she went to the closest one that she could find, which was the men's stall. But Dr. Hammond came and like physically blocked her from using the men's restroom. And he insisted that she had to use the women's restroom. And she's like, okay, like whatever, dude.

Crime Junkie

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And when she got inside and flipped the light switch on, she heard this like whirring noise.

Crime Junkie

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And what they ended up determining at his house is like it's the light switch. So when you turn it on, that triggered it to start recording. So he didn't even have to be there. And she's hearing this at his office. Now, she says in the moment, she was certain it was a camera. Not even like years later, but in that moment.

Crime Junkie

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Like specifically one of those big cameras from the 80s that had that distinct sound when it turned on, specifically when it focused. And she even flipped the light switch off because she was like so freaked out. She was like looking for a red light or any sign that she was being recorded. Wait, did police find cameras at his practice? I mean, did they even search it? So it depends on who you ask.

Crime Junkie

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like something yeah and we know they spoke and that like him her coming to his house was never a part of the story he told when they spoke so just a reminder of his story so matt drove that night because he was kind of bopping around to different places and he said that when he got to the prime minister peggy was arriving at the same time they are like at the bar they're chatting for a little bit like everything's normal and then his date this girl he's supposed to meet up with comes again maybe sean is he thinks it's her name they just met that night

Crime Junkie

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Ray Martinez told us that they didn't. But our reporters found an old article at the CSU archives that said they did search the doctor's office. But that article also had some other wrong information in it. So I don't really know for sure.

Crime Junkie

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Yeah. I mean, Ray Martinez worked the case. Like, I want to trust him. But like, it's also been so many years. You never know. So anyways, fast forward seven years, and this woman is like seeing the headlines about Dr. Hammond's cameras in his basement. And she's like, she has this like, oh, my God moment, like what I thought was real. Did she tell the police about her encounter?

Crime Junkie

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No, not right away. She said that once she realized Dr. Hammond had died, she wasn't sure what could even be done. But as years went by, she kind of got curious as to whether she was on any of the tapes. Right. Then obviously she found out Fort Collins PD had destroyed them and that there was no way of knowing, which tells me, again, that they burned all those tapes.

Crime Junkie

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Like, it's more proof to me that they did that before identifying all of the victims, that they didn't want to re-victimize by telling them they were victims. Now, the only thing she was told by police was that there was some tapes that looked to be in a different room than the bathroom. So clearly somewhere else was being filmed. Yeah. They never followed up with her after that.

Crime Junkie

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So who knows how many victims there were. And when Dr. Hammond died, the case just got tossed. And even though he had been arrested and charged, when you go to the Justice Center in Fort Collins in district court, it basically looks like Richard Hammond never even committed a crime. Which is like one of the most bananas part, I think, about the whole thing. Yeah. It just went away.

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Literally disappeared. And I think it might take friends in high places to make that happen. So still looking into Hammond. I will forever be looking into Hammond. But there was one other thing that came up as we were touring.

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So another man named Randy Anglin, his name popped up because there was a note on one of Tim's lawyers like papers or something that just said Anglin cut off nipples forever.

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Especially is what we're looking for, right? So we're looking into him still kind of actively. We found out that he was on this crime spree from 77 to 87 in northern Colorado, specifically really active in 87 for burglaries, sexual assaults. I haven't found any cases where a nipple was removed yet, but we did get some records. And in those, he's like clearly escalating.

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And there is a tip in Peggy's case about a car with Wyoming license plates like near the area at the time she died. And he had a car with Wyoming license plates. So again, more to be done on him, more to be done on everything, which is the whole point of this story is to tell people that I think it'd be really easy for police to say like, oh, or the DA's office, whatever.

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But when he gets out, that leaves everyone wondering who really killed Peggy Hetrick. And in one of Tim's filings, one of the things his lawyer said is that there were other viable suspects. And they were not wrong based on our investigation into the case. So I want to talk about those today.

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Like it's, we've tried everything we can. It's a closed case. There's still more that can be done. And it's so obvious. But for some reason, after Tim was released, after he won his settlement, it just stopped. Now, Tim did go on to write a book about his case that he self-published. And I mean, in all these years, he's been trying to make up for lost time. He likes to work on cars.

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He works with horses. He's spending time with people he loves. He's making up for lost time with them. And he even has an unexpected confidant these days.

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And he says that he offered Peggy a ride. She said yes originally. But then like at some point in the evening, he went to the bathroom. He's coming out. Peggy's leaving. So he's like, oh, she must have changed her mind. Whatever. He stays till last call with maybe Sean. And then they go back to his place till 3 or 3.30.

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As for Peggy's brother, Tom, he was diagnosed two and a half years ago with stage four colon cancer, which he said is what has made him so vocal. He is one of Peggy's only remaining family members fighting for her. And now he needs us to like take up that torch and fight for her.

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Now, he does tell police, though, that even though their conversation was normal, it was great, she made mention, Peggy did, that she was seeing someone new during this time, which he thought police should know.

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So crime junkies, this is where you come in. Our team has spent months reporting on this case, producing this live show. We've taken it to 17 different cities with a shared goal in mind. Justice for Peggy Hetrick. So we're asking you to join us in asking the Colorado Attorney General's Office to reopen Peggy's case, assign a new investigator and explore new DNA testing.

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And we've made it super easy for you. All you have to do is click the link below, fill out your information, and we're going to send an email on your behalf. Literally, it could not be more simple. This is why we do this show. And we know this is why you guys listen. So please take a moment. I know a lot of you who went to the show were experiencing technical difficulties.

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We have crashed the attorney general's website more than once. So this is your reminder. If you were at the show and didn't get an email through, please do that now. And if you're listening, please either stop what you're doing and do it now. Set a reminder immediately. This is so important, and Tom is really looking for your help.

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And then after your email is sent, we have a special surprise for you. For those of you who weren't able to make it to a Crime Junkie Life Rule No. 10 tour stop, or if you did join us and you just want to relive the experience as much as we do, we are actually sharing a video version of our very first stop here in Indianapolis, the hometown show. It's in the Crime Junkie Fan Club.

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You can see us present this case on stage, watch the interviews with Tim, Tom, and others involved, see maps and portions of Tim's interrogation, and so much more. So to watch the Crime Junkie Life Rule number 10 tour and learn more about the Crime Junkie fan club, visit CrimeJunkiePodcast.com. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.

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Britt and I are actually off next week, but we will be back the following week with a brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

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Better looking than you.

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Like, was she bluffing? I don't know. I don't know. So there's like some indications that maybe she was seeing someone like casually. I think it's also important to know that like Matt is that guy she would always go back to. there in Colorado. And so much so that I found out that earlier in that week, I mean, they had had dinner together.

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Also, apparently though, as far as I can tell, not something that police asked him about, which is like, seems like a miss to me because like, they're very much in each other's lives. And like, what did you talk about? What were the days leading up to it? I don't know. Well, and the police don't ask about the note.

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They did. They did check his alibi. They found maybe Sean. And our reporter Emily actually found her all these years later and spoke to her. Turns out maybe Sean, her name is actually Dawn.

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So close. And her story is interesting. It adds a little bit of context, a little bit of color. She says that they really did just meet earlier that night. They had saw each other in another bar and she said they recognized each other because Matt, like a while ago, had sold her a car. So like they'd been in the same orbit before, but didn't even know each other's names, clearly.

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And we are here to bring you part two of Peggy Hetrick's story. This is the story we took out on tour thanks to Pluto TV and State Farm. And when we left off, Tim had just been exonerated. He won a $10 million judgment after they wrongly not only accused but convicted him. He spent 10, almost 10 years in prison for a crime he did not commit.

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She said Matt came over to her and was like, hey, you know. When you're done with your friend, you should come to prime minister and hang out with me, which is what she did. She says she shows up later in the evening. And when she walks in, Matt is talking to this other woman who she figures out later is Peggy. Didn't know Peggy at the time.

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And she says she kind of hangs back for a little while and waits. But a couple minutes go by. He's still talking. So she decides to approach him. As soon as she approaches, Peggy like turns at the bar and starts talking to the guy next to her. And so Don just made the assumption that Peggy was with that other guy. And Matt doesn't introduce Dawn or anything. He just is like, hey, go get a table.

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So Dawn goes to get a table for four, thinking that maybe the other couple is going to join them. But just Matt comes back. And she says she didn't ask him about it. She didn't even ask him about the woman when she realized Matt's like kind of keeping an eye on her all night. Like they just met. She doesn't know the history, but like she's not going to dig too deep.

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They're like having a decent time. And they do. They stay till last call. She goes home with Matt. They talk. They kiss a little. She says the night ends for like a combination of reasons. Like, you know, he's doing the like, oh, like I got to work in the morning. And then he also makes this comment about how he hates kids, like not like dislikes kids, like hates them.

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And Dawn is like, well, I have one of those. So this probably isn't going to work out. And so she ends up leaving. But when she talked to us, there was something else that she told us that really stood out to her. She said that when she was in his apartment that night, it felt strange because she said it was so clean.

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Like not just clean for a boy kind of apartment, but like she's like, I couldn't find, you know, a piece of clothing on the closet floor. There was not a fork to be found in the sink. Like it felt like no one lived there. which was weird at the time, whatever.

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But she said what was really strange for her was that police brought her back at some point years later, and they were asking her questions about Matt's apartment specifically. And they were asking her, like, had you seen a broken coffee table? Had you seen some spots on the floor? And they're, like, showing her pictures of the apartment. And we're going to have one of these pictures up

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I, I think like you, we talked about this. We're like originally imagining like a shattered coffee table.

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It's like this like piece of wood propping up one of the legs.

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Fully something my husband would like do and then be like, it's fine for years if it was his apartment. Yes. So, and then the spots, like they're not like overtly blood or anything. There's just a couple of them. I don't know if they ever get those tested. And... Again, Dawn is saying, no, I never saw any of that because, again, it's so clean.

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But she said that wasn't even really the takeaway for her. As they're showing her these pictures, the takeaway for her is like, that's not the apartment I was in. Which it was like full body chills when she was telling us that. And it's not like it was a completely different. She said it looked the same. The layout was the same. But this one looked different. lived in. So lived in.

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I mean, if you see the pictures, there's like laundry everywhere. There's like stuff on the counters. Like, make no mistake, this dude lives here.

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Like

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They'd been drinking, like, this... And when they're showing her these pictures, I mean, this is, like, years later, too. So, yes, I mean, there could be, like... And I don't even know what to, like, make of this memory other than it's just so strange. But there were other strange things about Matt as well.

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Like, when they went to talk to him the first, like, day or two after they found Peggy, they did search his car and his place, and apparently they seized some... Wet clothes and shoes from his car and wet clothes from his apartment and not like damp. I mean, they said it looked like he'd gone swimming in these things.

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But strangely, like a couple of days later, Matt comes asking for those things back and they just give them back. Sorry we didn't like wash and fold them for you.

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I know. I know. But when you think about, like, at some point, I don't know what was happening years later. I think it was like probably the grand jury. They're looking at these pictures. They're asking Dawn about them. I think the implication was, did something happen in Matt's apartment after Dawn left? Right? Like, we got this maybe one and a half to two hours. Did a table break?

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Did these spots come after you left the house? Yeah. And I point that out specifically because there's one other thing that they collected early on that I think is important.

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Outside of Matt's apartment, they also found some footprints that matched the shoes Peggy was found in when she was killed and a pile of like 11 cigarette butts in the brand that Peggy was known to smoke outside of his place.

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I know. 11? I know. And when they talk to her friends, and this is like the little piece that comes out in that, like when I talk about the 2D image of her in the newspaper, when they talk to her friends, her friends did say, you know, it wouldn't have been that unusual. She gets jealous of like when it comes to Matt.

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It wouldn't have been weird if she saw him with another woman that night and then she went to his place to, we know she left ahead of them. Did she stake it out to see if he brought Dawn home? Did she stay and see if Dawn stayed or if Dawn left? And if she was still there when Dawn left, Then did something happen? Was there a confrontation at Matt's apartment?

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The problem with that is... It doesn't fit the theory that the attack happens in the field. I know. Like there's pieces that are missing because in my mind, like if something happens with Matt, like it is a heat of the moment, like passion thing.

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It's hard for me to imagine a world where either something happens in his apartment or even he like gets her in the car and then takes her to this place where someone could see something. Takes her out of the car, stabs her, drags her. Like, I can't make it add up.

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Like, was there a history of that? There's nothing, like, reported that I can find. In Matt's, like, criminal history, he doesn't have anything violent. I mean, there's, like, some DUIs and stuff like that, but no, like, domestic charges, nothing like that. Which is why I go back to, I think if something happened between them, it was heat of the moment.

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All right, when talking about people we should be looking at, viable potential suspects, the first that comes up is Peggy's on-again, off-again boyfriend, Matt Zollner, who was 29 in 1987. And every detective, I think, has their person, right, that they look into the most. And for Linda Wheeler, it is Matt Zollner.

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But, like, it's hard for me to imagine it happening at Matt's. And then if not, it's hard for me to imagine how Matt gets her in the middle of that field. I mean, biggest question, does Matt have Tom McCann shoes? Yeah. No. So they didn't find any Tom McCann dress shoes. They did take note of like a pair of boots that were like propped up against his couch.

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But Don says those were the boots he was wearing the night Peggy died. They're not the prints that match anything in the field. And I get the sense that like those were his nice shoes. Like he didn't have a lot of... Not a dress shoe guy. Right. Right. And so maybe for all of those reasons, he didn't have Tom McCann's. He maybe had an alibi. He was acting how they expected him to act.

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Early on, people wrote him off, even though he, too, like Tim, failed a polygraph. And he failed the question, do you know who killed Peggy Hetrick? Like, the question. Yeah. But the polygrapher decided that he was probably telling the truth. And so that's Matt. Now, the other person we came across in the case file was a guy named Donnie Long.

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So the same year that Peggy was murdered, there were two more murders. 39-year-old Linda Holt was stabbed nine times, bound, gagged, tied to a tree. Now, like Peggy's case, there was no sexual assault. But unlike Peggy's case, there was no mutilation to Linda. Then a couple of months after her, 30-year-old Mana Hughes is murdered. She's stabbed 14 times. No sexual assault.

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Again, though, no mutilation. Now, pretty quickly, police kind of pull Peggy out of this, even though you've got three cases that happen within nine months of each other, within 30 miles, in an area that doesn't really see violent crime.

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That's Deck Investigates Brain. I know, but, like, I think it's about the mutilation. I think that's the why, very early on, they were like, Peggy doesn't fit in this pattern. And they end up finding the guy responsible for Linda and Mana. They end up getting this Donnie Long guy. Donnie ends up confessing to Linda and Mana's murders.

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Truly the bare minimum.

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This happened recently where I'm like working on this case out of Washington that I've been working on for like two years. And me and one of our reporters, Emily, we had a call with the FBI because we're like, listen, we're not saying it's Israel Keyes, but here's like 20 things we find very odd that we feel like someone other than us should know.

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Because, you see, the clothes she's wearing match their description of Joyce Chang to a T. And officers also note that their unidentified woman matches Joyce's height and weight. So is this close to where Joyce's stuff was found? Not really. It's actually over eight miles downriver. It's south of where Anacostia River flows into the Potomac.

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The body is taken back to the medical examiner's office there in Virginia for autopsy. And their tentative ID gets validated even more when they look inside the socks that are still on this victim and find something surprising. Right there, tucked away in one of the socks, is Joyce's missing debit card.

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To do a formal DNA comparison and confirm what they're now, like, 99% sure of, law enforcement collects some blood from Roger Chang while also comparing Joyce's dental records with their Jane Doe. Now, all of this is pretty standard, nothing out of the ordinary, right? But once the results from the autopsy come back, things start to get weird.

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According to an article in the Leaf Chronicle, her cause of death is inconclusive, with no marks on her skeleton to indicate a gunshot wound or a stabbing or anything like that.

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Apparently, they can't even tell that. It's inconclusive. I know there's this common view that autopsies always hold the answers about how someone died. And I mean, it's true that more often than not, they do. And more often than not, law enforcement learns something from the autopsy, even if it's not like a black and white, you know, this is how it was done and whatever.

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There's still information like information is information. And yet here there's nothing.

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I did, too. But I mean, there's a first time for everything, I guess. So at this point, all police can do is wait for the DNA test results to come back, hopefully with that conclusive identification. Now, that takes a couple of weeks, but ultimately it is confirmed. Their Jane Doe is Joyce Chang. But even now, they still have almost nothing to go on.

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Roger's done work for like Beau Clinton's campaign and Joyce interned with a congressman from their home state of California before retiring. She took her current job with the Immigration and Naturalization Service. So D.C. is really like the perfect place for them to call home. Since it's Saturday night, Joyce is out with one of her friends from work.

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By July of 1999, six months after Joyce first went missing, investigators are grasping at straws. Like, they look into some sketchy and honestly borderline racist theories about Joyce's financial habits. They also look into the possibility that she was abducted by a sex trafficking ring. And police also follow up on another theory that's got a little more substance to it.

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So it turns out that one Starbucks employee does come forward a little bit later and tell police like back in January that, you know what, they did think they saw Joyce in the shop on the night she disappeared. According to Eddie Dean's reporting for the Washington City paper, though, that's not all he saw.

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He saw Joyce get her tea and then spent over an hour there at the Starbucks talking to a woman with blonde hair. Wait, so who's this blonde lady and what were they talking about for so long? Well, this is what's so weird about all of this. According to that same Washington City paper piece, police have a composite sketch of her, all made up, ready to go.

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They just haven't released it to the public yet for whatever reason.

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Which it seems like it's stayed there and has never been released to this day. At least nothing in my research that I could find indicates that they ever put this out there like looking for this woman to come forward or someone who knows her. So this loose end kind of just stays dangling out there in this case. Maybe it's nothing.

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But just like with whoever paged Joyce on the night she disappeared... We don't know. Once investigators run out of straws to grasp, Joyce's case turns cold. It gets warm for a hot second in February of 2000 when authorities tell the media that they're basically all but certain Joyce was the victim of foul play.

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But mostly it stays at a standstill for almost two years until May 1st of 2001 when another young woman goes missing in Washington, D.C., a woman named Chandra Levy. As Helen Kennedy reported for the New York Daily News, there are some pretty striking similarities between Chandra and Joyce. Both women were originally from California. Both were congressional interns.

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Both lived in DuPont's circle and went missing just blocks from each other. They even looked alike. They were both 5 foot 3 inches tall. Both weighed around 100 pounds. Both had brown eyes and shoulder-length dark hair. But there's one major difference between them. When Chandra goes missing, her case explodes across the headlines of every major news outlet in America and stays there for months.

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And she told Roger they're going to have dinner. They're going to go see a movie. And as the night wears on and Joyce doesn't come home, Roger doesn't think too much of it. He knows that she's been battling a cold since New Year's. So in his mind, it's totally possible that she decided to just like crash over at her friend's house instead of

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I mean, years even that they recently within the last couple of years did a documentary on this. And if you're not familiar with her story or want a refresher, we actually covered that case back in 2018. So you can be sure to go listen and just think about the differences in how these women's stories are handled.

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When Joyce went missing, she got like some blips on the local evening news and the occasional write up. But that's it. So is there any chance that Chandra's disappearance is connected to Joyce, though? According to CNN, police don't think so, at least at the time. But they acknowledge the similarities, not even just between Joyce and Chandra, though.

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They acknowledge the similarities between both of them. and yet another woman who was murdered in Washington, D.C. the summer before. On the night of August 1st, 1998, a little over five months before Joyce first went missing, a man heard a woman screaming near Canal Road Northwest.

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He stopped everything he was doing and with that scream still ringing in his ears, he called back to the mystery woman asking her if she was okay, if she needed help. And heart pounding, he waited for a response. But the woman never responded. And eventually, the man assumed she was fine and she didn't need help.

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But the very next day, police find a woman's body in the woods right near the road where he heard those screams. She was later identified as 28-year-old Christine Mirzayan. The autopsy found that she had been bludgeoned to death with a rock and that she was sexually assaulted before she died.

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As June Q. Wu reported for The Washington Post, Christine was originally from California, just like Joyce and Chandra. She had dark hair and she'd moved to D.C. for a fellowship at the National Research Council. So she, too, had experience working in government. While police don't believe Christine's case is connected to Joyce or Chandra, Joyce's friends and colleagues don't agree.

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They take to the media to argue, but unfortunately it makes no difference. What's absolutely infuriating to me, though, is that at the time of her death, Christine's case got even less coverage than Joyce's.

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There may be clips in local broadcast archives we just don't have access to, but the earliest newspaper coverage I could find doesn't come out until July of 2001, almost three years after Christine's murder. It's as if this poor woman's case went totally under the radar until Chandra Levy put D.C. crime under a microscope. For years, questions swirl around all three cases.

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But then an FBI theory becomes public, one that Joyce's family just can't accept. Law enforcement believes Joyce might have died by suicide. Wait, but I thought they said that foul play was involved. They did. That was their thought. But police could never prove it since they don't know how Joyce died.

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trekking all the way home in that cold, crappy weather that night. And honestly, besides, she's 28 years old. She doesn't need her baby brother's permission to switch up her plans if that's what she decided to do. Joyce isn't back by the next morning. But it's not until Monday that Roger really starts to worry because that's when he learns that Joyce was a no-call, no-show to work that day.

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And according to Stephen Braun's piece for the Los Angeles Times, the possibility of suicide has been on their radar for a long time, in no small part due to some difficulties she was having at work.

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As the same piece goes on to say, Joyce was actually under an internal investigation at the INS and was supposed to have a formal interview with the agency during the week after she first went missing. Now, the FBI doesn't make public the reason behind the investigation.

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But between the stress from this probe going on for who knows how long and this upcoming interview, the FBI wonders if the stress was just too much for Joyce to handle. Adding to their suspicion, Joyce's jacket was found near a bridge that actually has a reputation for suicide attempts.

Crime Junkie

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No, totally. Joyce's friends and family are adamant that she wouldn't take her own life. She wasn't showing any signs of mental illness. Her sunny disposition was intact, they say, when she went missing. And she didn't leave a note. Which is a huge misconception as a hallmark for death by suicide.

Crime Junkie

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Yeah. So, I mean, that's not necessarily proof that their theory is 100 percent wrong. But her brother, Roger, says, like, listen, sure, she was stressed about the interview, but he tells police it certainly wouldn't be enough to make Joyce do something so extreme. So what does he think happened? Well, Roger and the rest of the Chang family believe Joyce was murdered.

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They point to incidents Joyce told them about before she died, like a peeping Tom and a subway creep following her. After Joyce died, Roger says that he found some weird graffiti out in the alley behind the Starbucks where Joyce was headed on the night she vanished. And it's honestly creepy here, but I want you to read it.

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Isn't that weird?

Crime Junkie

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Yeah, she like took it down once and then they like put it back up. The thing I don't know about this is exactly when it was found. Like, was it was it already there? Was it before? Was it after? I don't have a lot of information around that, but it is bizarre. And it's bizarre that this is like not the first time we've seen this. Yeah, for sure.

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According to the Baltimore Sun, the Changs look at all of these things as evidence that Joyce was murdered. And they feel like law enforcement isn't doing enough to look into all of this stuff as potential leads. In fact, Roger Chang actually files a formal complaint against the D.C. Metropolitan Police for mishandling Joyce's case.

Crime Junkie

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And honestly, there's a pretty big disconnect in how the different branches of law enforcement involved in the investigation handle their public comments. Just to give you an example, like within the span of a couple of weeks, they flip flop between suicide and homicide, kind of depending on who's talking to the media. So it doesn't even feel like everyone is even aligned.

Crime Junkie

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And to make matters even more confusing, John Walsh gets involved. What? Yeah, not just to do the America's Most Wanted special. According to Fox 5 News, Johns convinced that Joyce and Chandra were victims of a serial killer. And he takes that theory to any outlet that'll listen to him, even after police discount the theory over the summer of 2001.

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According to an article in the Capitol newspaper, Joyce is a staff attorney at the INS. And no one knows better than Roger how hard she's worked to get where she is. He knows there is no way she jeopardized her career by just ghosting on her workplace like this. She's not answering her calls. She's not answering her emails.

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Okay, cool. Continue. By the end of the summer, with Chandra's case still dominating the headlines, attention on Joyce's case fades. Law enforcement is right back at the same standstill that they were before. And listen, little pieces pop up in the media over the years. John Walsh stays adamant about the serial killer theory. Roger keeps giving interviews.

Crime Junkie

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He actually, in a strange twist, kind of winds up as a producer on America's Most Wanted. I did not see something like that coming at all. Me neither. And it's not like it's like a flash in the pan kind of gig either. Like he's there for a legit job there. Yeah.

Crime Junkie

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Anyway, more than 10 years go by with no news and no movement until January 25th, 2011, just over 12 years to the day after Joyce first vanished. As Paul Wagner reported for Fox 5 News, police have new evidence finally shining a light on what might have happened to Joyce that night.

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Apparently, they now believe that she was abducted from DuPont Circle by three suspects and taken down to the banks of the Anacostia River, where these three suspects planned to rob her.

Crime Junkie

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No, listen, I agree. I actually was like just looking at Google Maps and it doesn't make any sense to me as like a good robbery plan. But like, hey, I mean, I'm not a criminal. What do I know? According to the same article, law enforcement believes that Joyce could have been pushed into the river.

Crime Junkie

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Or maybe she could have slipped and fell into the freezing river as she tried to escape her attackers. And, you know, she basically got caught up. She wasn't able to pull herself out of the river. If I'm like picturing how this went down, like maybe that's how her coat ended up. Maybe they tried to grab her. I don't I don't know.

Crime Junkie

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According to a Fox News broadcast, police have been quietly working for about a year to nail down their suspects. And over the rest of the winter and into the spring of 2011, law enforcement reveals more and more information about these suspects. One of them, a guy named Steve Allen, is already in prison serving a life sentence for similar crimes.

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And another guy, Neil Joaquin, is thought to be out of the United States in Guyana, where there's no extradition treaty. OK, but what about the third one? Well, WJLA News reported that there's not enough evidence to prosecute the third person. Police believe Steve and Neil worked as a pair to abduct unsuspecting people and take them to more secluded locations to rob them.

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According to more of Paul Wagner's reporting for Fox 5 News, Steve and Neil were arrested in 1999. This was like three months after Joyce's disappearance for abducting another woman from a busy part of D.C., not far from DuPont Circle, and driving her a few miles away to rob her. But then they released her.

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And there's nothing around their apartment to suggest that she's even been there at all since Saturday. Nothing's been moved. None of the food in the fridge has been eaten. Like, everything is as Roger left it. But Roger doesn't report his sister missing. Why not?

Crime Junkie

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Right. To me, it's so weird that they're making this connection, what, 12 years later and not like three months right after when this happened. But apparently, no, like it took some 10 years and some prison rumors to get Steve and Neil on police's radar for Joyce's death.

Crime Junkie

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On May 13th, 2011, this is 12 years, four months and four days after Joyce Chang vanished from DuPont Circle, police officially rule her death a homicide.

Crime Junkie

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Well, not quite, because on one hand, there's definitely this vindication of what they've known in their hearts all along, that Joyce was murdered. But this very same day, police also announced that Joyce's case is going to be closed and they're not going to be pressing any charges against Steve or Neal. Why not?

Crime Junkie

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As law enforcement explains at a press conference that same day, basically, they're competent that they've got enough evidence to get arrest warrants, but not enough to grab a slam dunk conviction. So. That's it. Like, I wish I had a more satisfying resolution for you, but I don't.

Crime Junkie

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But they're they're not keeping it open. They're saying they're closing it. And it's like what I don't get is that they're basically saying we're never going to do anything. So if you're never going to do anything, why not at least try it? Yeah. Like and then if you lose, you lose. But like try or like you said, like just don't close it and try later. All you have to do is just not close it. Yeah.

Crime Junkie

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And if you're if you're going to say, hey, well, we're not going to keep it active because we don't think we'll ever find anything more. There's never going to be more physical evidence. We've already had people come forward. I go back to if you're never going to have more and you know that and you know that enough to close it, shoot your shot.

Crime Junkie

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Well, Roger Chang has self-published a book about his experiences around Joyce's death called My Peace I Offer You. Over 22 years have passed since Joyce's death, and while her case is still officially closed... I have to wonder, has justice been done? Time helps heal, but does the desire for closure ever really go away?

Crime Junkie

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Well, as Roger himself says during an interview he gave to Bill O'Reilly, he really wants to wait and give her one last chance to reach out. Finally, on Tuesday, January 12th, Roger starts calling around to her co-workers and learns that none of them have heard from her in the past three days either. So it's not just him. And right then, Roger knows what he has to do.

Crime Junkie

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Not just for Roger and Joyce's family, but for her friends and her colleagues and everyone who loved her? Listen, I don't have the answers. I mean, we do, right? I mean, I think we do. Like, keep it open. Shoot your shot. But maybe there's stuff we don't know. I don't think anyone knows this completely 100% inside and out. And that's part of why I wanted to tell you Joyce's story.

Crime Junkie

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To remind all of us that even when the ending isn't as neat and tidy as we'd like, there is still a human at the heart of it all. And that person's life mattered. Joyce's life mattered. You can find all of the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.

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We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

Crime Junkie

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He calls the FBI and the local police and reports his sister missing. Wait, why does he go straight to the FBI? He's actually following protocol because Joyce isn't a civilian, remember. She's a government employee. So according to WUSA Eyewitness News, Joyce's job with the INS makes her a federal officer.

Crime Junkie

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So that, coupled with the possibility of foul play in her case, means the FBI is involved right from the jump. OK, that that totally makes sense. As they start the investigation, one of the very first things law enforcement tries to do is piece together a timeline of Joyce's movements that Saturday.

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They learn from her friends that she'd been socially active all day, meeting one friend for coffee in the afternoon before heading downtown to meet her other friend slash co-worker for dinner and a movie. They learned that she was wearing a thigh-length green jacket with a hood over a black turtleneck, light-washed jeans, and a red paisley scarf.

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Now, that friend, the one that she had dinner and saw the movie with, tells police that she'd given Joyce a ride back to DuPont Circle, where her apartment was. And if you've never driven in D.C., it's like a lot of older cities that are kind of like tangled with one ways and side streets where sometimes it's just like faster to like walk someplace than it is to try and drive there.

Crime Junkie

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So when Joyce said that she wanted to stop off to pick up a cup of tea and the easiest thing for both of them to do was just like drop Joyce off and then have her walk like they did that. So Joyce got out of her friend's car at about 8.30 that night at the corner of Connecticut and R Street Northwest, right across the street from a Starbucks.

Crime Junkie

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As far as her friend knew, Joyce didn't have any other plans that night, and she had no reason to think that Joyce did anything else than go to Starbucks, get her tea, and then safely walk the three blocks back to her apartment.

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Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And the story I have for you today takes us right to the heart of the nation's capital. People come to Washington, D.C. from all over the country to look for opportunity to advance their careers and to get a taste of shaping the future. One woman came to D.C. to take her place in the grand scheme of American politics.

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Not as far as we know. According to WJLA News, though, the FBI does interview all of the employees who were working that night. And none of them remember seeing a woman matching Joyce's description. But remember, I mean, this is a busy location that sees a ton of customers. So the barista's memories aren't super reliable because they just see so many people coming and going every day.

Crime Junkie

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Yeah, it's funny. I actually thought about that specifically. Obviously, Starbucks is like known for their coffee. And I was like, oh, I wonder if do they have a tea on their register? But to your point, I'm sure they had more than one tea like on their receipts. I don't know.

Crime Junkie

MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Joyce Chiang in Fairfax

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Right. And I mean, the one thing I will say is like 830 is a short time frame. But even if they found proof that, OK, someone bought a tea right around the time she got dropped off, that doesn't mean that it was her that bought the tea. Right. Like it actually doesn't get them anywhere. Right.

Crime Junkie

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Like, we have no idea what she even ordered. So as the police and FBI keep combing through Joyce's movements that night, they discover that she left her pager at home. And interestingly, Joyce got one page, which police are able to actually track back to a payphone at a hotel near the Dulles International Airport.

Crime Junkie

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But they're unable to narrow it down any more than that, so the pager proves to be a dead end. At some point over the next couple of days, the FBI questions one of Joyce's ex-boyfriends. How recent of an ex? I literally have no details about this person. All we know comes from the WUSA Eyewitness News report saying he was questioned, he, whoever he is, but that he wasn't detained or anything.

Crime Junkie

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Like, the end. So just like ticking a box. You're right. Now, because they're getting nowhere, the FBI puts up a $20,000 reward for information leading to her whereabouts. They also get their first lead when they learn that Joyce's wallet with her INS ID and expired credit card inside turned up just a day after she vanished.

Crime Junkie

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According to NBC News 4, a female jogger found Joyce's wallet on January 10th in Anacostia Park. The jogger turned the wallet over to the park police, thinking like whoever dropped it would eventually realize like, oh, crap, my stuff's missing and come looking for it. But neither she nor the park police had any reason to suspect that this wallet belonged to a missing person.

Crime Junkie

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So the officers didn't take any of the jogger's information or ask any follow up questions at the time.

Crime Junkie

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No, that's the thing. It's not. And even if it was, Joyce going there that night just doesn't make any sense. Like, Joyce, remember, she had a cold. She wasn't feeling super great to begin with. It was already dark outside. So going into a park, especially this park, it's like huge. It would not be safe for a woman on their own.

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And not to mention, this park is at least a 20-minute drive away from DuPont Circle, where we know she was dropped off right near. It's not even within walking distance. There is no reason for Joyce to have gone anywhere near there that night. So at this point, police are brimming with questions. But the contents of Joyce's wallet only add more to the mix.

Crime Junkie

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And while she found success, she also learned that the city has a dark side. and the darkness may have cost her her life. This is the story of Joyce Chang. On the night of January 9th, 1999, a man named Roger Chang is at home in Washington, D.C. in the apartment he shares with his older sister, Joyce. They're both politically active and work in government.

Crime Junkie

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Once law enforcement does get word about Joyce's wallet and they start going through the contents, they notice something odd. Joyce's debit card is missing. But when they check her accounts for activity, her missing debit card isn't being used, hasn't been used since she was last seen.

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So police put out a public call for the jogger who found the wallet to get in touch so they can get some more detailed information. Of course, they're not just like waiting around while they're waiting for her to get in touch. So police go out to the park ready to search all 1,200 acres of park grounds and make inquiries with the naval base right down the river if they have to. But what?

Crime Junkie

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Fortunately, this jogger does reach out. And once she does, police are able to use what she tells them. And they get their first big break. The jogger tells law enforcement that actually she hadn't found Joyce's wallet in Anacostia Park. So then where did she find it?

Crime Junkie

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According to another NBC News 4 broadcast, she clarifies that she found it near the park, on the banks of the Anacostia River, not the park itself. Armed with this new information, law enforcement brings out dive teams, radar boats and cadaver dogs to focus on this particular area of the river. On January 21st, 1999, 12 days after Joyce was last seen, is when they finally hit on something.

Crime Junkie

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But it's not in the water. According to the Capital newspaper piece I mentioned earlier, Joyce's green jacket is found in a traffic circle near a service entrance to the Anacostia Naval Station, near where her ID was actually found. They also find her Safeway card, her house keys, her Blockbuster card, and her gloves.

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And that's not all they find, because it turns out there is something in the water after all. A body. But it's clear right away that the body belongs to a man. So obviously it's not Joyce. With that body on its way to the D.C. medical examiner and all of Joyce's things sent off for analysis, law enforcement resumes their search throughout the area.

Crime Junkie

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They go back to the Anacostia Park area to scan the region with helicopters and volunteers braving the bitter cold in their efforts to find Joyce. Police call off the river search around noon the next day after their efforts don't turn up anything else.

Crime Junkie

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The FBI is still hopeful that they'll be able to pull something like a fingerprint or some fibers off of Joyce's thing, something, anything to give their investigation a direction to go in. In addition, they're hoping some national TV coverage from America's Most Wanted will help the investigation. So they work with that TV team to get some coverage for the case.

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Once they get their lab results back a couple of weeks later, it looks promising. According to another report from NBC News 4, the FBI manages to pull some clues that they believe could lead them to DNA samples. The FBI is playing coy and trying really hard not to show their hand to the media. But the reporters in this news piece basically tell the FBI, like, we already know what it is.

Crime Junkie

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Like, don't bother dancing around it because their sources had told them that they got hairs off of Joyce's stuff. So law enforcement collects some samples of Joyce's hair for comparison against what they've pulled from Joyce's belongings. Analysis shows that the hairs found on her stuff belonged to two different people, one white person and one black person.

Crime Junkie

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Now, since Joyce is Taiwanese-American, those hairs can't belong to her. Around the one-month mark of Joyce's disappearance, the FBI makes a statement where they tell everyone they don't believe that she left the area of her own free will, that she was taken by a stranger or even by someone she knew. So... Between that statement and, you know, finding these hairs on her things.

Crime Junkie

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Then they know something went really wrong here. Right. And they know that they need to find Joyce and they need to find her now. But they don't have any leads on suspects, right? No, no. The FBI says they're not ruling out any potential suspects, including Joyce's roommate and little brother, Roger Chang.

Crime Junkie

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So we see in missing persons cases how sometimes a member of the victim's family can really become like the main spokesperson. And for the Chang family, that's totally been Roger. Since day one, he's been constantly giving interviews to any outlet that will listen, talking to law enforcement, hanging up flyers, holding vigils, doing all of the things a concerned family member would do.

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But while Roger's public image is that of a terrified brother who just wants his sister to come home, In private, the FBI has some doubts about him, mostly because he is the one who waited till Tuesday to report Joyce missing, even though he knew better than anyone how unusual it was for her to just ghost everyone like she did.

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According to Ellen Gamerman's reporting for The Baltimore Sun, around this time, the FBI collects carpet samples from the siblings' apartment and asks Roger if he'd be willing to take a polygraph, which he does. And? And the results come back inconclusive.

Crime Junkie

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When asked about it, Roger chalks the results up to anxiety or law enforcement trying to mess with him, which, I don't know, both could be possible. Everyone knows how we feel about polygraphs. Right, right. As this Baltimore Sun piece goes on to say, though, even though Roger's definitely raising a few eyebrows, he is never actively pursued as a suspect.

Crime Junkie

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And then, at the start of spring, a grisly discovery changes everything. At around 6.30 p.m. on the evening of March 31st, 1999, a woman named Leslie Brown is having a peaceful night at her home in Fairfax County, Virginia, when suddenly she hears this commotion coming from outside.

Crime Junkie

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She can't quite make out the words, but the tone is more than enough to hammer home that something is very, very wrong. Leslie rushes outside and she finds a canoeist there on the Potomac River gesturing wildly and yelling that they found a body washed up on shore and they're begging for someone to call for help. Leslie runs back inside and dials 911 immediately.

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According to a piece in the Los Angeles Times, when the police arrive at the scene, they find a woman's body laying face down on a rocky part of the shoreline, still wearing blue jeans and a black turtleneck. Now, the body's pretty badly decomposed, way beyond any hope for a visual identification. But it doesn't take long for police to start forming a theory about who their Jane Doe might be.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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And although they couldn't make out their features, they just, I mean, figured it was Brian because, I mean, they knew he was staying there. His car was in the driveway. And whatever he was doing, like, nothing was striking them as odd. So they didn't pay much attention to him. They said when they left for work later that day, which would have been around 8 or 8.30 in the morning, his car was gone.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Now, this helps with the timeline and a potential sighting, but I don't know that it like means anything because it actually wasn't super unusual for Brian to be up late because of his insomnia. And Amanda knew that he had been searching for this specific receipt that he wanted to bring to court. So it's possible he was in the garage just looking for that.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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But overall, everyone is pretty confident that it was Brian that the neighbors saw at around that 2 a.m. time. So the question is, what happened after that? He's not in jail. He's not in any hospital. Police have checked. And a random act of violence at the Worley house seems really unlikely.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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I mean, it is quite literally one of the safest neighborhoods in Carrollton, so much so that Amanda told us that her grandparents' door was always unlocked, which I never recommend no matter where you live. Don't do that. But on top of that, apparently it's like situated on a lake cove at the end of a cul-de-sac. So it's not even like an area that someone stumbles upon.

Crime Junkie

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Well, actually, that's something that his family is wondering. Because again, we know he's got insomnia. Amanda says it's not strange for him to like run an errand in the middle of the night or even to leave his cell phone at home if he thought he's going to be back really quickly.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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So kind of with that idea in mind, I know that they started to look at what would have been open locally at around 2 a.m., this time that they know he's like up and at them. But there's not much in the area. They do find a Walmart nearby that's open 24 hours. And since he mentioned wanting to get that topographic map, it's worth checking out.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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And trust me, you'll want to keep up because we are not stopping anytime soon. With that being said, the story I have for you today is about a man who vanished without a trace during what should have been a fairly uneventful trip to his hometown. Everyone who knew him or who hears about this case suspects foul play, but no one knows what could have happened to him.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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But for whatever reason, investigators don't ask for it. But they do have Walmart at least search their records for the map stock number to see if any were sold in the relevant time window that they were looking at. And they say that none were.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Well, according to Captain Shannon Cantrell, and he's one of the investigators working the case now, Brian could have bought a map at literally any convenience store. Although the captain told us that he's not aware of police checking any of those surveillance cameras either. But what they do is they at least monitor Brian's bank accounts and his credit cards.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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And Bennett Rowland reported that there's no financial activity anywhere after Wednesday, September 23rd.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Well, the probate court judge actually told Detective Johnson that she wasn't aware of any issues. But what I will say is that Anita's husband told the fall line that Brian's older brother, this would have been Chris, wasn't happy with how Brian was handling the probate paperwork. But that being said, I'm not sure if this was a serious disagreement or if investigators were even aware of it.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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I don't know if they even ever interviewed Chris. And if they did, there's no mention of it in any of the police reports. And just FYI, because this is I don't know if it matters to you, but Chris is not the brother that Anita was talking about with the like Bud Lights in the trash and the yard work. There are nine Worley siblings altogether. So it can get a little bit confusing.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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You get it. Yeah. Anyway, while police are trying to track down Brian's last movements, his loved ones are doing everything they can to bring him home. They're posting flyers throughout the area. They create a Facebook page. They're contacting friends and relatives. They drive around Carrollton looking for him or, you know, any sign of his car.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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They're even checking like properties that he like is known to. Like I guess Jeff and Brian owned like a little farmhouse a few hours away. And so people who live by there even go check that property. But there is no sign of him. No one has seen him. No one has heard from him. It's like he vanished into thin air.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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I think that's something that police consider. But they conduct ground and aerial searches for the Buick and don't find anything. And I don't even know that I would expect them to. Like, I don't think it makes sense for him to leave early without all of his stuff. Yeah, I keep coming back to the medication. Yeah, and again, like, you just have to go to this one court thing.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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That's the whole reason you came into town. It's that morning. Just, like, take all your stuff, go to that thing, and go. Like, this isn't right. Something here is very fishy. By early October, everyone feels like they've hit a wall.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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But on the off chance, the off-off chance that Brian did leave on his own, without his medication, without his things, there is one thing that could possibly make him come back. His nephew's birthday. Because Brian adores his nephew. He would never miss his birthday if he could help it. So if he left willingly, that'd be the day he returns.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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The Worley family and Jeff celebrate the birthday at a restaurant. And the whole time, Jeff can't help but watch the door, waiting for Brian to walk in. But he doesn't show. And that last sliver of hope that his absence was voluntary is dashed. His loved ones try to start thinking of explanations, possible scenarios that could help focus and direct their search efforts.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Again, they don't think he would harm himself, but they do wonder if he fell victim to a hate crime. Brian had come out as gay to his family years ago, around the time that he had graduated high school. And he was met with what the fall line refers to as, quote, end quote. And Carrollton, Georgia, is probably not the easiest place to do that. I mean, it is not a small town, per se.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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This is the story of Brian Worley. Anita Gay is surprised when she gets a call from a friend who works at the courthouse. It's the afternoon of Thursday, September 24th, 2009, and her friend says that Anita's brother, 39-year-old Brian Worley, didn't show up for court earlier that morning. Now, he's not in trouble or anything.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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At the time, there were like 24,000 residents. But it can feel like a small town. And it is an extremely conservative area. And while Brian isn't the type of person to start a fight, he'd stand up for himself if someone was messing with him. Or, you know, another theory is maybe he stopped to help someone who had car trouble. Maybe he had car trouble and needed help.

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MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Police do get a tip that a man who reportedly looks like Brian was broken down on the side of the road, but they can't pinpoint a location.

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MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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It seems like it could be a good lead, right, especially since they have nothing else to go on. Right. But, I mean, it's impossible to follow up on. I mean, he only mentioned them in passing, and Amanda doesn't even know what town he was in when he met them, let alone who these people are. Like, there's just no way to even track that down.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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But according to police reports, investigators do go through his cell phone and look for unfamiliar numbers or anything suspicious in case he was in contact with someone. But they don't find anything. Brian doesn't use social media, and he didn't even bring his laptop from Atlanta because there's no internet access at his parents' house.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Just to be on the safe side, though, Jeff takes the laptop to Carrollton PD for them to look through. But again, it was like a total bust. They got nothing from it.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Because weeks after Brian's disappearance, she learned that detectives still haven't even checked his email. So she decides to log into his account to just look for clues herself. Like, I'm not going to sit around and wait for you. And I guess investigators had an alert set up because soon after, Detective Johnson calls Anita about the login.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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And she tells him that it's her niece, not Brian, who signed in. And that's when the detective calls Amanda for the first time ever, by the way, and asks her for his passwords.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Bingo.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Yeah. Now, I don't know, but I think we can safely say that by now, 2023 anyway, the phone has been analyzed. One of the current investigators, Sergeant Meredith Browning, says that police have identified everyone in Brian's activity log from September 1st, 2009 on. And it doesn't seem like any of them arouse police suspicion.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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It's also worth noting that there doesn't appear to be a working landline at his parents' house either. So it's not like he's making calls on a different phone because he's at the house or anything like that. Like, I don't think he was talking to anyone new. Now, in late October, an unidentified man's body turns up in West Virginia.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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And Detective Johnson's interest is piqued when he hears that the victim has an invalid Georgia ID. But he quickly learns that this man is Hispanic with black hair and Brian was white with blonde hair. So definitely not him. By now, it has been a month since anyone has seen or heard from Brian.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Police tell reporter Bennett Rowland that they're following up on every lead they get, but behind the scenes, Amanda says that they still seem fixed on the idea that Brian left on his own, maybe to pursue another relationship and get away from Jeff.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Oh, and I stand by that. I'm not saying that what they're doing makes any sense whatsoever. It's just what they were doing. And this part will make even less sense to you because Amanda says that at the same time, police are also suspicious that Jeff did something to Brian. What? Yeah, even though no one in Brian's family thinks that. Like, he's cooperative.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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He lets police search their place in Atlanta, their farmhouse. He passes a voice stress test. He brought the laptop in? Yeah. So with only these two theories, police are going nowhere fast, and the investigation stalls out.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Until Wednesday, December 2nd, when a cop in Chattanooga, Tennessee, about 125 miles away from Carrollton, notices a car parked on a residential street that matches the description of one involved in a robbery. The officer runs the tag and he gets a shock. The Tennessee tag that the cop just ran doesn't match the car that the plate is on now.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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So when they dig a little more, this officer gets an even bigger surprise because the car, which must have had its original plates removed, belongs to a man who's been reported missing. It's parked by a streetlight on Judson Lane near North Chamberlain Avenue next to a curb and some overhanging bushes with berries on them.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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And when officers see leaves, berries and black mold on the car, they speculate that it's been sitting there for a while. So they obviously know it's Brian's car. So Chattanooga PD notified the police in Georgia, who in turn tell Brian's family about the development. And they're baffled because he has no ties to this area whatsoever and neither does Jeff. So how and why did his car end up there?

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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The Carrollton investigators head to Chattanooga to try and answer some of those questions. And during their canvas of the neighborhood, they do get lucky because a woman tells them that she saw the guy who left the car there. She describes him as a young black man. She says that he was driving really fast, had turned onto their road early one afternoon, parked, got out and just walked away.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Though she doesn't see where he went, and she's like, I don't know the guy. And the best description she could give was that he looked to be in his early to mid-20s. He's like 5'7", 5'9", with short hair. And she says he was wearing dark pants and a black short-sleeved T-shirt.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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What she and the other residents tell police is that that car has been there for weeks, like since around Halloween, which is wild because the key was still in the ignition.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Well, apparently, random people use this spot all the time, and it seems like everyone just assumed it was there because of, like, one neighbor or another. Like, they were kind of assuming it was all each other. Like, there's this one witness, for instance. She tells investigators that the man who lives across the street from her sells pitbulls, and... possibly drugs.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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So he gets a lot of visitors. But Pitbull Guy, meanwhile, says that he thought the Buick was there because of this older man who lives across the street from him and fixes cars up for people in the neighborhood. So sometimes he parks cars that he's working on in that same spot that Brian's car was found in.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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And of course, the neighborhood mechanic says that he has no idea who left the Buick there or why. And I see where this is going. Right. And so on and so on. When detectives get the car back to Carrollton, they contact the Georgia Bureau of Investigation and they send an agent over to help process its interior.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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And based on what investigators hear from Brian's loved ones, the car looks just how he left it. It hasn't been ransacked. There's a Tupperware container filled with change on the front passenger seat next to a science fiction novel. And under the book is a receipt from Taco Bell, that meal that he was eating when he spoke with Amanda on September 23rd.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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That's what police are thinking. And it doesn't look like anyone was in the backseat either. There's actually an important fact about the car. It had been burglarized while Brian was in Atlanta. And I mean, there was still broken glass from the rear window in the backseat that doesn't seem to have been disturbed.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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So long story short, as police are processing this, they managed to pull a partial print from the car. And according to Amanda, they get some fiber samples, too. The problem is the print isn't good enough quality to analyze on its own. Like, they would need a suspect to compare it to. They can't just, like, put it into APHIS.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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So while investigators are doing what they can with the car, Brian's loved ones do what they can. They visit the Chattanooga neighborhood where his car was found to hang up posters. They offer a $10,000 reward, even run a couple of TV ads. But months roll by with nothing. And eventually, the one-year anniversary of his disappearance comes and goes.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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It's like probate court, and he was only supposed to be there to just turn in some receipts and sign a document. You see, their mom has Alzheimer's and neurocognitive disorder, and he is her power of attorney. So Brian has to juggle a lot of complicated paperwork. And sure, it's been a bit stressful, but he's not the kind of guy to just skip on something so important.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Detective Johnson tells Times Georgian reporter Amanda Thomas that he thinks there are answers in Chattanooga because someone there knows something about the Buick. He says Brian's disappearance is weighing heavily on him and that he works on the case every single day. Hmm.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Well, here's what I'll say. According to his reports, he does take steps to move the investigation along. Every day I can't speak to because, again, the timeline is very cloudy. All you really see is like randomly he'll list a bunch of things that he does in just this like one big summary that has no date on it. Like a few examples of stuff that like is on a list like this.

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MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Like he gets search warrants for Brian and Jeff's AT&T account, including cell tower data, and verifies that Jeff was in Atlanta and Brian was in Carrollton when they last spoke on the phone. It says that he checks with Greyhound and the company tells him that no bus tickets have been sold in Brian's name.

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MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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He also tries to determine if Brian has traveled anywhere by plane, but the airport in Atlanta informs him that apparently they can't search by name alone. Like you actually have to have a flight number or airline.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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And I don't know if this is like, I'd never heard this before. I thought like anytime you flew, they know exactly who you are. Like in a post 9-11 era, this shocked me.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Same, same. So anyways, time continues to pass with no leads. And by April 2012, Detective Johnson retires. New investigators, including the two that I've mentioned so far, Shanna Cantrell and Meredith Browning, are asked to just take a fresh look at Brian's case. So Cantrell, who is a sergeant at the time, brings Anita and her husband in for another interview.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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And then afterward, they go to Brian's parents' house. The family still owns it at this point, even though no one actually lives there. They basically just use it for events like baby showers and get-togethers or whatever. Now, when they're walking in the door, it has been two and a half years since Brian stepped foot in the house.

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MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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But what's so eerie is that the room he was staying in looks practically untouched. The bed has been made, but the clothes on it are the ones that he was wearing while doing yard work the Wednesday before he disappeared. Like, they're still covered in grass clippings and stains. His personal belongings are all still there, like his overnight bag and toothbrush and paperwork.

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MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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So since all of this stuff is still there, Cantrell takes everything into evidence.

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MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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I have no idea. Again, like, there are a lot of things that should have been done that were not. But as the new investigators quickly realize, unfortunately, that wasn't the only oversight. Like, for instance, remember those beer bottles that were in the trash?

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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The ones that Anita said were from their other brother? Well, apparently those were never even taken into evidence either. And then you've got the police reports that they're going off of two and a half years later, which, again, leaves so much to be desired. All of it... is just so frustrating.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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And one of Brian's friends, this guy named Robert, he actually told YouTuber Ben Jacob that he has a theory as to why police just didn't take this case seriously to begin with. He thinks it's because Brian's gay. Robert said, quote, So basically, Robert thought that they weren't interested in pursuing the case until Brian was gone forever.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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In fact, he came into town specifically for that hearing. And he even drove through some of the worst flooding that Georgia's ever seen to get there. Like the drive from where he was living in Atlanta to where his family lives in Carrollton usually takes about an hour.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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And even then, when they started to take it seriously, it was because his loved ones had to badger them into doing that. And one of the things that Amanda points to, to kind of like back this up, is she says that Detective Johnson even refers to Jeff as Brian's roommate in one of his initial reports.

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MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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So, I mean, we asked the current investigators if they thought homophobia could have played a role in how the case was handled during the first couple of years. And they both acknowledged that there were a lot of things that should have been done that weren't and a lot of things that were done which could have been done better.

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MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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But they told Nina that they don't think that there was a malicious reason for any of the flaws in the investigation. So to get back to what Sergeant Cantrell starts doing at this two, two and a half year mark, he also goes to Atlanta for another interview with Jeff. Brian's disappearance has genuinely shattered him.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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And however the original investigators may have felt, the two on the case today say they are confident he did not harm Brian.

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MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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It does. And I think there is. But despite that, a few more years still pass by without any real developments. But then in 2015, Sergeant Browning meets a self-proclaimed psychic through this friend. The psychic mentions that she's worked with law enforcement before and the sergeant immediately thinks of Brian.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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And listen, she knows it's a long shot, but at this point, like, what do you got to lose? Like, anything's worth a shot.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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So police have her come in for an initial reading. And whatever she tells them, they're impressed enough that they bring her to the Worley home where she says she starts getting vibes or feelings from the backyard deck area. So on Tuesday, April 21st, investigators called Tracy Sargent.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Tracy is one of the top canine handlers in the nation, and she specializes in search, rescue and recovery missions. She also just happens to live in Georgia, about 45 minutes away from Carrollton. So the very next morning, she and three of her dogs, two black German shepherds, because I know you're wondering, and one yellow lab, they all head to Brian's parents' house.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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When they get there, Tracy starts her usual routine. She gives the command and the three dogs are like trekking around the property, just one at a time. You know, they don't want to like influence each other. But none of them have any kind of reaction. That is, until they get to the backyard.

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MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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But because of everything that was going on with all the traffic, with all the road closures, it had taken him four hours when he made the trip just two days before on the 22nd.

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MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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More specifically, the Worley's boathouse, which is basically this like large shed thing perched on the lake that you can park a boat in. And what happens is that right outside of that boathouse, each dog alerts in the same exact spot. After seeing the dogs' response to this spot, Tracy brings the dogs into the boathouse. And once again, they each alert in the same specific area.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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This could be huge. But Tracy knows that, listen, even a consistent reaction like that doesn't necessarily mean that a dead body was there. Her dogs are trained to smell human remains. So you could be talking blood, tissue, cadaver fluids, bones, teeth. And they give the same alert whether they catch the scent of decaying flesh or like blood from a bloody nose.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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And one of the things that Tracy notices is there are some like tools and boards in the boathouse. So it's totally possible that someone at some point cut themselves during a project or something. But you don't know that till you find that out, right? Like this is definitely worth taking a closer look at. So police essentially pull up the boathouse floor to see what's underneath.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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But they don't find anything. So they decide to expand the search to the water. And it does seem to be good timing because according to the fall line, the city had recently drained the lake for routine maintenance. So it's way more shallow than usual. And they actually use the dogs for this too.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Yeah. So at first, Anita just calls his cell, but he doesn't answer. Then she starts reaching out to some of the people that he's closest with to see if they've heard from him, like his longtime partner, Jeff, who he lives with in Atlanta, and her and Brian's niece, Amanda, who she knows he talks to at least a few times a day. But no one Anita calls has spoken to him since yesterday.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Tracy and investigators take the dogs out on a boat ride one at a time to see if they can sniff out anything on the lake. At the same time, the county fire department's dive team searched just like a little cove next to the boathouse. So, I mean, they are really going at this area.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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But unfortunately, the dogs don't have any reaction once they're out on the water and the dive team doesn't find anything, which is a huge disappointment. But as Tracy pointed out, the dogs aren't just there to determine where something is or might be. They can also tell you where something is not. And Tracy is confident that Brian's remains are not on his parents' property.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Yeah, I mean, it's a disturbing thought, but it does make sense. And I mean, really, until we find out what happened, I think every scenario is on the table, although... At least to me, some are much more likely than others, which actually brings us to July of 2018 when Sergeant Browning gets this idea.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Even though Brian's car was removed from police databases after it was located, there should still be an active alert on his license plate since that was never recovered. Remember, because it got like switched or whatever.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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But if the license info was accidentally removed from the system along with the car, then police wouldn't know if it was tied to a missing person, like if it ever came up anywhere else. So she checks to see if any cops ever ran Brian's tags. And when the results pop up, she's stunned. It turns out the sheriff's department in nearby Coweta County, Georgia, did come across the license plate.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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But it wasn't after the Buick was removed from the databases. It was way back on October 17, 2009. And what?

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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That is the million-dollar question. And the bolo was definitely active. Carrollton tested it a couple of days after it went into effect, so Coweta officers would have immediately known that the tag was associated with a missing person, and they should have alerted Carrollton PD right away. Why that didn't happen, anything in between, I don't know.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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All we know is that Brian's license plate was on a vehicle in Coweta County, which is like 45 minutes away from Carrollton, and we know that it was there like three weeks after he disappeared. We don't know if it was on Brian's car at that point or if it was on a different car by that point. And we also don't know why police ran the tag because Coweta County doesn't have those records anymore.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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And when Sergeant Browning calls the now-retired Detective Johnson, he says he doesn't remember ever being notified about it. So all I can tell you is that if Carrollton PD was notified, there is no record of it, which, as you can imagine, for Brian's loved ones is more than frustrating.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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It is heartbreaking, especially for Jeff, who diligently contacts police over the years and never stops looking for Brian. In 2017, Jeff is hospitalized with appendicitis, and while he's there, he actually has a heart attack. He died never knowing what happened and still questioning, to some extent, if the love of his life chose to walk out on him.

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MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Amanda says that Brian called her while he was getting Taco Bell the day before. It was like 3 o'clock in the afternoon. He had just finished up some yard work at his parents' house, which is where he stays when he's in town because it's been empty since his mom moved into an assisted living facility that past spring. Now, during their chat, he was so normal.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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I mean, in his heart of hearts, probably not. At least I hope not. But, I mean, Amanda says that he couldn't help but wonder, like, if that early police theory about Brian leaving just to get away from him was true. Yeah. Which like, I mean, she points out it's easy for your insecurities to get the best of you when you have no answers.

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MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Like when there's a void like that, sometimes that like horrible inner voice can just get so loud.

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MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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For Brian's family, the lack of answers is just the worst part. But there's another difficulty they faced that Amanda hopes we can help ease for others. And that was not knowing what to do or how to even advocate for their person.

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MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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So in the blog post for this episode, we actually have a bunch of links to guides and tip sheets from organizations around the world that list concrete steps and actions that you can take if, God forbid, someone you love of any age goes missing or if they are already missing.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Amanda also recently started a GoFundMe to raise money for billboards, and there is a link to it in our blog post and in the show notes if you want to help her meet her goal. She is hoping that the billboards will spur some new leads and help jumpstart the investigation again because it has been at a standstill for a while now.

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MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Police never found out who left the Buick in Chattanooga, and that could be the key to cracking this case. And I want to be clear, they don't necessarily believe that the guy who left it there was involved in Brian's disappearance, because if the Buick was abandoned somewhere, it might have changed hands a couple of times before he even got it.

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MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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And they want that guy to know, if he's out there, if he's listening, that they have zero interest in pursuing charges for car theft. They just want to follow that trail back to Brian, whose family has been grieving for far too long.

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MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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So please, if you have any information about Brian's disappearance or the car or anything related to the case, contact the Carrollton Police Department at 770-834-4451. Brian is white, and at the time of his disappearance, he had blonde hair, blue eyes, and weighed about 140 pounds. He's 5'7", and if he's alive today, he's 52 years old.

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MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.

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MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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He like filled her in on his nightmare drive from Atlanta. He says he was so frazzled that he just stopped somewhere along the way to have a quick drink and met some, quote unquote, interesting people there.

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MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Don't forget to go check out all of those links so you know exactly what to do in case of an emergency if someone you love goes missing. And we'll be back next week with another episode. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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I don't know. He didn't really elaborate. But interesting people aside, he said that he didn't want a repeat of that trip. But the problem is he can't stick around in Carrollton until the roads clear because he and Jeff are going to be going to Florida this coming Saturday to visit another one of his sisters. And he has been really looking forward to a vacation.

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MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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So he told Amanda on this call that he might try to get his hands on a topographic map. Brian actually studied geology in college and he worked for years as a land surveyor. So he figured, you know, he's probably going to be able to use this map, which shows like the kind of elevation in the area to find an alternate route home where the roads aren't flooded.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Now, after that call, Anita knows where Brian was because it was her house. He went over there for dinner with her and her family, and she's able to piece together that Brian had called Jeff later that night at around 8.30 just to catch up. He also left Amanda a voicemail at some point, but he didn't answer when she called him back.

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MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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Now, the last person that he spoke with was his best friend, and Anita knows that they hung up at around 9.15 a.m.

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MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

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That depends on the source. And listen, I'll warn you all, like the Fall Line podcast first covered this and they were actually the ones who suggested this story to us because Brian's case wasn't just getting, I mean, hardly any attention. So they gave us copies of police reports that they obtained through a records request.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

377.943

And there is so much stuff that just was never documented by the original investigators and the lead detective, Tony Johnson. Like, I mean, we're talking there are entries with no dates or times. Some of the details don't jibe with things that I've heard from Brian's niece or his sister or even from current investigators who our reporter Nina interviewed.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

399.754

And there's also like a ton of conflicting information from the media. So, again, there's a lot of specifics that we've tried to piece together with everything that we know the best we can. But nailing down a consistent timeline is damn near impossible. Right. So with that in mind, police reports say that Brian left Anita's at around 8 on Wednesday night.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

420.486

She only lives like 10 minutes from their parents' house, so if those reports are accurate, that he was probably back at his folks when he spoke to Jeff. So that is where Anita goes to look for him on Thursday afternoon. But he's not there, and neither is his car, a light blue Buick that used to belong to their mother. So she goes inside the house, and at first glance, everything looks normal.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

443.237

But then she notices that a corner of his bed covers are turned back, almost like he was getting ready to lie down, but then didn't for some reason. And what's even more strange is that all of Brian's stuff is still there. And when I say all, we're talking his cell phone, his overnight bag, clothes, toiletries, and most alarming of all, his medications.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

468.73

Yes. So you see, Brian had some health issues. He has a heart condition that requires him to use a pacemaker. He has severe arthritis. He's been diagnosed with narcolepsy. And he also has insomnia. So there is no way that this dude is leaving with all of his medications left behind. Unless he planned to come back. Yeah. And actually, the one thing she can't find is Brian's wallet.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

492.243

So maybe, just maybe, he ran out to get something. But... Even then, like, it doesn't add up because he wouldn't have missed court that morning. So by this point, everyone's getting really worried. When Amanda, who, by the way, lives in Ohio with her husband at the time, when she gets an update from Anita, she starts panicking immediately.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

514.015

And Jeff, who's still in Atlanta, is right there along with her. He apparently contacts Carrollton police that very night, but I bet you can guess what they tell him. Oh my God, you have to wait. A whopping 72 hours.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

53.376

Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And before we jump into today's episode, Britt, I just want to acknowledge that AudioChuck recently passed 2 billion downloads across our shows. I know. And just to be clear, that's billion with a B. I mean, that number is like hard for me to even wrap my head around.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

547.213

Yes, absolutely.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

558.175

And again, it's you can like it's one thing to to say you're not going to search. Like, again, I still don't understand it. But take the freaking report. Like how much how much effort is that? At least get something in paper. Get something started. Get the ball rolling. Right. I don't. So here's the thing with this one. So they do eventually take a report after Anita calls them on Friday.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

576.604

But even though they took a report, they don't actually enter Brian's information into the state and national databases yet.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

586.133

Yeah, I don't know. Although, according to Bennett Rowland's reporting for The Times-Georgian, they do put out a bolo for Brian's car. Now, by the time Saturday rolls around and there's still no sign of Brian, Jeff makes his way to Carrollton himself. And he and Anita go to the station to speak with investigators in person. And again, they're pleading with them.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

605.528

They're like, this is totally out of character for Brian to just go MIA like this. And they're also trying to convince police, like, listen, we got to completely rule out, like, any kind of self-harm. This isn't that either. So it's at this point that he is finally officially listed as a missing person.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

622.868

But even though it is a victory, Jeff doesn't think detectives are all that interested in finding his partner. For some reason, they seem to believe that Jeff and Brian got into a quote-unquote lover spat and that maybe Brian left without his cell phone on purpose because he didn't want to be bothered. Or maybe he's having an affair. Either way, the police think that he might not want to be found.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

650.246

No, ma'am.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

654.987

So, again, we know everything we have is a little bit spotty. Post-it notes, right? They're not actually post-it notes, but to your point. And we have this one report where Anita told police that apparently they had gotten into an argument. Again, I don't know how big the argument was. I don't even know how accurate that is. So I don't know if that's what they're going off of.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

684.24

Not to mention Jeff and Brian have been together for 13 years. Like Jeff can't see Brian leaving him or their two beloved dogs and like their whole life together without a single word. There's dogs involved. Forget it. Exactly. And listen, like anyone who's been together for 13 years, I'm sure they had some ups and downs.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

706.514

I mean, I do know that at one point, Brian had to move back to his childhood home to take care of his mom full time after his dad died. That was back in July of 2007 and before his mom went to that assisted living place. And Jeff had to stay in Atlanta for his job and to help with his own mother. So, I mean, there was this time where it had been really tough while they're living apart.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

726.261

Plus, Brian hadn't been working for a while because of all of this caretaking that he was doing. And there was some tension, I think, there because Jeff wanted him to get a job. But I don't think that that was any reason for him to go away because that seemed to be all being resolved.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

74.732

And as you guys know, I mean, so much good has come from you just hitting play.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

741.568

Because earlier that year, Brian had told his siblings that handling everything for their mom was really wearing him down. So that's when they moved her into the assisted living facility. And Brian went back to Atlanta. And granted, he still visited Carrollton a lot to see his family, to run errands for his mom. But he and Jeff were finally starting to get their lives back.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

763.311

So even if the stress was getting to him, why leave now when things are finally starting to turn a corner?

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

783.122

Exactly. Exactly. And he is tight with his family, especially his nieces and nephews. He's like that fun uncle who's never been too busy to play a game or give advice. Bottom line is him abandoning everyone, like you said, does not make any sense. And again, like, say there is a world where he needed to get away for a minute and something happened and he couldn't call or whatever, whatever.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

807.356

You'd take your medications with you bare minimum.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

811.64

But for whatever reason, police are pretty confident in their own theory. Especially when they get word that Brian might have been seen after he was supposed to appear in court. Police learn that Brian paid his mother's water bill on Thursday the 24th at City Hall.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

835.053

And I don't know how this information comes to light because police reports say that Jeff heard it from one of Brian's brothers, which Amanda says isn't accurate. But however it happens, when Detective Johnson goes to the water department, a receipt shows that the bill was paid by check that Thursday at 3.17 p.m.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

858.217

No. So Detective Johnson notes that City Hall doesn't have any security cameras, which I feel like is kind of bonkers.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

864.82

I know. I know. That's one place I thought would have them. And I guess the clerk who took the payment doesn't remember what the person who paid looked like. It was probably one of many things that happened that day. So I think they're just assuming it was him because he is the one who handles his mom's finances. But I'm not sure. So, of course, this really throws his family for a loop.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

87.442

But just like us at AudioChuck, we know that you crime junkies don't just stop after an episode. So many of you look for more ways to engage after you listen. So if you're looking to connect with us and to take your crime junkiness to the next level, you can follow AudioChuck and our shows on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. We will link out to all of those in the show notes.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

884.178

City Hall is literally two minutes away from the probate court. So why in the world would he skip that hearing in the morning, a hearing he drove through a flood to attend, then pay a bill in the afternoon and then vanish? Jeff thinks this whole thing is just too strange, so he keeps following up with the water department.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

904.249

And sure enough, his instincts are correct, because within a couple of days, they learn that Brian actually paid the bill on Wednesday the 23rd at 4.26 p.m. But the problem was he overpaid and the utility company issued an automatic refund on Thursday. Hence the Thursday timestamp. You're kidding me. I wish I was.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

927.497

But thankfully, at least according to Detective Johnson's reports, the search for him wasn't just totally abandoned because of this payment. According to the notes, Johnson had still been looking into Brian's whereabouts. What we know is that at some point from Sunday the 27th through Monday, September 28th, Detective Johnson goes to check out Brian's parents' house.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

950.609

He doesn't see any signs of a break-in or foul play, but something catches his attention, like enough to include it in his reports, which is no small thing with this guy. There are eight empty bottles of Bud Light in the trash, and to him, they look fresh. However, before you go getting too excited, it's another dead end.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

970.097

Anita tells him that the bottles were from another one of their brothers who was there doing some yard work and just like cleaning up. She's like, Brian doesn't even drink beer. Now, the other thing that Detective Johnson does is he also speaks with the next door neighbor, this guy named Jimmy, who was a longtime family friend of the Worleys.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Brian Wehrle from Atlanta

985.942

And Jimmy or his wife or possibly both of them, depending on who you're talking to, they remember seeing that the garage light was on at around 2 a.m. on Thursday, which would have been in like the early morning hours before the court appearance that he was supposed to be at. Hmm. And they say they also saw someone in the garage.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1003.658

You see, police learn that he'd had a really happy childhood. There were five siblings altogether, so there was always someone to play with. And Aaron was like the daredevil of the bunch, always climbing these big trees that they had in their yard of their family home in Oregon. And it wasn't until high school that Aaron began getting into trouble.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1021.873

By that time, they had moved to Phoenix, and Aaron started drinking and using drugs. And when he was 19, he had crashed his motorcycle while being chased by police. Oh. He actually almost died in that accident, and he ended up suffering some brain damage. And that is when he really started to pull away from his family.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1041.221

When his parents moved back to Oregon for a bit, he actually stayed behind in Phoenix, preferring to sleep in homeless shelters. And when they eventually came back to Phoenix, he tried living with them for like a minute, but it just didn't last very long. Over the years, he was in and out of jail, including a seven-year stint for burglary.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1058.813

And after he was released, his family tried to find him and even bring him home. His dad even hired two private investigators to track him down at one point. But Aaron was restless. Like, he didn't like to stay in one place for very long. And this whole time, his struggles with drugs and alcohol use are continuing.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1075.602

But his family says they never stopped loving him, and they never stopped hoping that he was going to turn his life around. So now to learn that not only was that never going to happen, but that he died in this god-awful way is just beyond devastating. Now, because his family hadn't talked to him in so long, they couldn't offer anything valuable to police to progress their investigation.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1100.361

But around this time, they do get what they think is a promising lead elsewhere. See, the rumor mill hadn't stopped turning, and the police were determined to get to the root of it all. So they track down this guy, Carl, who seems to be at the center of this rumor mill. Lots of people they talk to are basically like, well, I heard this or that or whatever, but I heard it from Carl.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1123.527

But the problem is once they get to Carl, he says, well, I'm just telling people what Robert told me. Oh, my God. So around and around and around the story goes. Now, it's a good thing they did track Carl down, though, because there are a few noticeable differences between the story that Robert has been telling police and what he's apparently been telling Carl.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

113.188

And it has no shortage of customers, thanks to a Circle K convenience store on one end of the plaza. And that thing's open 24-7. One of those customers is this guy named Nimoy. He's with a woman headed to the Circle K from his nearby apartment. And this is like 6.50 p.m.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1148.487

Like, for one, in this new version of events, Robert's been telling Carl that Charlie wasn't even there. Again, Charlie's the one that has the two statements that are changing. He says he's not there, but Max, Nate's brother, was there. It seems like they're basically swapped out.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1164.75

Now, as they continue to talk to Carl, what they find out is that Carl, I guess at some point, actually confronted Nate about the fire. And Carl says that Nate denied being involved to him. So he's not bragging about being involved to everyone. And he even said that if he had done anything to Aaron, he'd be two states away by now. But Carl says he doesn't believe him.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1186.974

He also thinks that Nate is responsible for Aaron's death. But Carl says that he won't testify to any of that should this case ever go to trial.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1209.904

No, so that's the thing. Like, these guys are proving to be difficult to actually track down. Detective Rostenberg told us that at the time, they think Nate and Max might have left the area for a while. But it sounds like Max might have actually been at college at the time. And Charlie had apparently moved to California.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1232.952

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the timing isn't lost on me either. But there isn't much they can do. Again, they don't have an eyewitness. And like I said, even though Carl's like, oh, I'll never testify, I don't know what he would even testify to because he wasn't there. He's hearing rumors like everyone else. And so that's the problem.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1248.681

Everything in this is like heard third hand and lead after lead falls through. And everyone who says that they have information just ends up regurgitating the same rumors that they've heard a thousand times. So until they get some concrete evidence, that's all everything is, just rumors. But with these rumors, some people start to suggest a possible motive.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1272.154

Some of these guys who are known to mess with Aaron, I guess, are wealthy. Maybe they just don't have any sympathy for homeless people because they've never dealt with any hardships. And that might seem like a stretch, but this lack of empathy isn't just towards Aaron.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1286.141

I kind of looked into this, and according to John Dickerson's reporting for the Phoenix New Times, there had been a recent uptick in violence against homeless people. And that disturbing trend can be seen across the country. The National Coalition for the Homeless says that in 2006, 122 homeless people were attacked and 20 of them were murdered. Now, that's probably an underreporting.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

129.054

And suddenly, the both of them hear screaming coming from an open-air breezeway, which is basically like a walkway that separates some of the buildings. And it sounds like a man screaming, but they can't really see what's going on until they come around the side of the Subway sandwich shop to a courtyard that has these like concrete picnic tables and like benches.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1310.79

Again, that's from years and years and years ago. Yeah, I was going to say, that's also just the ones that were reported. Exactly. Because what I know is that Aaron didn't report any of the incidents that were happening to him to police.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1325.138

They did.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1331.02

Well, and what's especially sad is that it seemed like despite everything, despite the harassment, Aaron kind of thought of these guys, like, as friends. He thought that they liked him or something. But these so-called friends now are nowhere to be found. And for months, the police are just at a standstill. And time doesn't bring more answers. Right.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1352.782

In early June, police learned that no ignitable liquid residues were found on any of Erin's clothing. But the lab does caution that negative results don't rule out the possibility that liquids, specifically ignitable liquids, were initially at the scene.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1368.685

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're talking like gasoline or something like that. And they're saying that we couldn't find any. That doesn't mean they weren't there. They could have evaporated. They could have been completely consumed by the flames. So physical evidence is telling them nothing. But that month, that's when a guy named Ryan comes forward with a story that police haven't heard yet.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1392.779

When Ryan sits down with them, he tells three variations of the same story. And I'm not going to tell you every single detail because honestly, it gets super confusing. Like, I can't tell you how many times I had to go over it over and over again, and I was still finding myself getting confused. But the basics of what you need to know are this. He introduces two new people, Curtis and Ramon.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1417.564

And he says that these guys hang out with lots of the people in our original group of four guys, who, if you remember, are Nate, Max, Charlie and Donnie. Although notably, Donnie hasn't been placed at the scene by anyone yet. It's all been Nate, Max and Charlie.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1438.71

Right. And now Ryan is saying that Curtis and Ramone also hang out with these guys regularly. Got it. So basically where his story ends up landing is these two new guys, Curtis and Ramone, and then three of the original group, Nate, Charlie, and Donnie. So basically everyone but Nate's brother, Max, right? Right, right, right. Okay, so you're following. I know there's a lot of names.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1457.222

There's a lot going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he says those five people were all there with Aaron on the night that he died. And he said that while they were hanging out, Donnie and Nate were flicking lit matches at Aaron. And he says that it was Donnie's match that got caught on either Aaron's beard or the sleeve of his wool coat that he was wearing.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1480.74

And Ryan says that Aaron was really drunk, so he didn't really react to this happening. Now, he says, like, I mean, has to be really shortly after they flick this. But basically, he's like, we all got up, and we got in the car, and we drove away. And we look back, and that's when we notice that Aaron is face down on the bench burning.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1499.893

But they just, like, figured he'd put the fire out by himself, and they just kept driving. So was Ryan there before?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

151.219

And something is on one of those benches right next to the Subway. And whatever it is, is on fire. And at first they don't know what they're looking at, but they quickly realize that it is a person engulfed in flames. Oh, my God. Nimoy and the woman rush over to the Circle K to get help. There's actually a customer who's leaving the store and they like tell them, listen, someone is on fire.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1519.891

Well, I mean, that's the only way he can. So go ahead and scream. But he does say that like someone there told him. So he says that he heard it from Ramon, who, again, he's saying Ramon was there when it happened. And like in this same breath, he also tries like vouching for Ramon. He's like, he's a good guy. He was the one that was like crying as he recounted what had happened that night.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1541.532

He knows that it kills him inside to think that they could have helped him but didn't. But he says that the other guys he heard were not sad at all. Like, I guess they were finding it funny. They're like laughing about it. Okay. Do police believe any of the story, though? I mean, maybe. Again, it's interesting. It's at least different than everything they've heard before.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1560.613

They're at least like one degree removed, right, from the person, not like six or whatever. Right, right. But the problem is it is still someone who heard the story from someone else. It is not an eyewitness. Now, they want to corroborate this as best as they can.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1574.567

At the time, police are still having a hard time tracking down everyone, except they are able to actually track down Ramon, who is supposed to be the source of this information. And if what Ryan is saying is true, that he is the one who has like a sense of remorse about this whole thing, maybe they're going to have like some luck getting him to talk. When they bring Ramon in, he is freaked out.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1596.721

And at first, he insists that he wasn't there during the fire. He says that they were all hanging out, but he and Curtis just kind of smoked some weed and then they left. But police don't believe him. So investigators warn him that they have security footage, which we know they don't, but they're like hoping that that'll get him talking. And it works because finally Ramon breaks.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1617.307

He tells detectives that he actually saw the whole thing. He says that Donnie was trying to light a blunt with some matches, but they were all duds. So Donnie would like strike a match, then flick it. And one of the matches landed on Aaron's wrist or cuff or something. And Aaron was so drunk that he couldn't even lift up his head. He was like basically passed out on the bench.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1641.715

And in the position that he was in, which was like half sitting, half slash like laying, the match landed by his shoulder and by his long hair. Now, he says Donnie finally got the blunt lit while this is going on and they all jump in someone's car to drive away. But as they're pulling out of the parking lot, Ramon looked over and saw the sleeve of Aaron's coat was on fire.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1663.503

But he says they didn't turn back. And later on, Nate got a text from someone asking if he had heard about what happened. And that is when Donnie started to freak out, saying that he needed to get out of the state and that if anyone told on him, he'd have them killed. Since then, Donnie had called Curtis and others from private numbers to threaten them, he said.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1685.496

Which is why Ramon says that he hasn't come forward. He was scared for his life and for even his family's safety. Ramon says that he doesn't think Donnie meant to kill Aaron, but accident or not, if Ramon is telling the truth, Aaron's death is Donnie's fault.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1711.813

Right, especially if what they're saying is true, that Aaron was so drunk that he couldn't even sit up. He wasn't even conscious. Completely incapacitated, yeah. Yeah, any thought anyone might have had of like, oh, he'll put himself out. I don't even know how you could actually think that. So this interview actually changes everything.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1727.846

Like Ramon might not be 100% consistent, but police finally have somebody who was there. They have an eyewitness, not somebody who heard it from somebody who heard it from somebody else. Yeah, this is huge, honestly. Yeah, so a couple of days later, after detectives consult with a medical examiner, Aaron's manner of death is officially changed from undetermined to homicide.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

174.01

We need your cell phone to call 911. Now, listen, the customer had seen something burning when he drove into the parking lot, but he figured it was like a tiki torch because one of the restaurants had some of those outside. So this guy actually thinks that these people are screwing around with him. And so he tells them that he doesn't have a cell phone, even though he actually does.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1748.44

Meanwhile, the used matches that they found at the scene, which had not been sent to the lab for testing, are submitted for DNA analysis. And detectives also decide to bring in Curtis to see if he'll corroborate what Ramon said. But he says that he doesn't remember much from Christmas. He says the whole night was like a blur, but he certainly doesn't remember Aaron catching fire.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1770.373

And he says he can barely even recall names of the guys who were there because he doesn't know them all that well. However, police know that's not true. You see, they have his phone records, which show that he had called Nate four times within an hour that night. And when they confront him with this, he said that Nate knows a guy who gets them weed.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1790.524

So he's like, that's the only reason I was calling. That's why there's like four calls, whatever. Now they want him to take a polygraph. He's like definitely not willing to do that, mostly because he says he just smoked a few hours ago and he doesn't know like what that's going to do to the results.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1803.888

And this is where police like jump in and they're like, actually, you've already been taking a polygraph this whole time. You just didn't know it. Police tell him that they have been analyzing his voice and doing like a stress test analysis thing as he's talking. And so they're like, you know, even though you don't think you're taking a poly, like we know you're lying.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1823.112

Now, this isn't actually true. Police weren't testing his voice. And Britt, I actually had you look this up anyways. Like, if they were doing it, would it have been accurate? And you found some interesting things, right?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1856.196

I feel like I heard one time that like they're even less reliable than a polygraph, but I'm not 100 percent on that. Either way, so they tell him this lie. Curtis doesn't know that they're lying. So he starts to backtrack. And eventually he's like, OK, I did see someone flicking matches, but only at the ground.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1874.326

And he admits that when they were all in the car, someone got a text about how the whole area had turned into a crime scene, like there was tape all around it. But he says that he's not sure who was messing with Aaron or who was flicking matches. And he doesn't think anyone knew that Aaron had even caught fire. So as far as witnesses go, this guy's like, meh, at best.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1894.414

But regardless, investigators know that it's time to go after one of their big fish, the alleged fire starter, Donnie. And it's their lucky day. They learn that Donnie was just arrested that past May in Washington. Detectives contact prosecutors there in Washington and find out that Donnie had recently checked into a drug rehab facility.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

1917.773

His defense attorney wouldn't give the prosecutors any details, but that attorney promised that Donnie would be at his next court appearance on July 10th at 9 a.m. So these Phoenix detectives fly out to Washington on July 9th. They get a search warrant to take DNA samples from Donnie. And true to his lawyer's word, the next day, Donnie appears in court.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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And after the appearance wraps, police bring him in to chat with him. And he pretty much agrees to talk openly as long as his lawyer is present. And so after taking that DNA sample, they sit down to hear Donnie's version of events. He says that back at home, he and his friends often hung out in that little courtyard by the subway. That was a regular hangout spot.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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And he knew that people messed with Aaron, although he says he didn't participate because he didn't think it was funny. And he says even though people messed with Aaron. everyone still liked him. Like they were cool with him. They weren't doing it because they didn't like him.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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Again, I don't know if this goes back to like them being bored rich kids or what, but he's like the whole crew would give him money. They'd buy him cigarettes, stuff like that. And he's like, listen, Aaron was a good guy. I even considered him a friend.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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So when it comes to that day, he tells detectives that on Christmas, he met up with Nate and Charlie and this third guy that he only knows by the nickname Colorbanger. And police don't recognize this alias at all. And Donnie says all he knows about this color banger guy is that he's this skinny white guy, early 20s. He uses meth, lives somewhere around the area and wears colorful, tight clothing.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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Hence the nickname, I guess. I don't know. Basically, he's got this punk rock style, short, spiky hair and piercings. So anyways, there's this new guy now. So on Christmas, they're all hanging out with Aaron and someone bought Aaron a sandwich and some shooters, which are those small airline bottles that they found at the scene. Donnie says that he wasn't drinking at all because he had to drive.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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Well, again, I don't know why he thinks these people are screwing with him, but he actually goes over to get a look for himself. It's not like he just gets in his car and goes away. He's like, I'm just going to like see what's going on. And the closer he gets, he realizes like, holy shit, it is a person. So he does call 911.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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But Aaron got really drunk and passed out on the bench. He says other people kind of came and went while they were there. Friends, people from the neighborhood, Curtis, possibly Ramon. Then around maybe six or seven, Donnie says his aunt calls his cell to let him know that Christmas dinner was ready, so he needed to get back. So that's when he says he left alone in his own silver BMW.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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He thinks maybe he stopped somewhere to get cigarettes, and then he went right to his aunt's house, which is in Scottsdale, where he spent the night.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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Bingo. According to Donnie, he only found out about the fire the next morning from an unnamed friend. And he said he didn't even believe it at first because the whole story was so shocking, again, so unexpected.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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Now, he says that whoever that unnamed friend is told him that it was Colorbanger who threw the match or couple of matches at Aaron's arm, which resulted in the fire, but it was all an accident.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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Well, no, because Donnie tells detectives that he's not sure where his friend got his information and he doesn't know how to get in touch with him.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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Yeah, he says no. Cool. Awesome. Perfect. Yeah, it's definitely not the confession investigators were hoping for. And basically, the interview ends when Donnie's defense attorney says, listen, he's due to appear in court on another case. Like, we got to go. So detectives head back to Phoenix with Donnie's DNA.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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But when they talk to the folks at the lab, they're told that all they can really test DNA on are the matchsticks. And in that process, they're going to basically totally consume any DNA that's there. So this is a question that comes up a lot in cases. Like, we can try the testing, but if nothing's there, like, you can never test again. Right.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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We can try the testing, but it's the only testing we could ever do. Yeah. And in a year or two, the testing might be better if you want to wait. It's like this conundrum that so many detectives find themselves in. But at this point, it's November 2008. So they're coming up on the one-year anniversary of Aaron's death. And, I mean, they don't have any more than rumors and speculation to go off of.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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And while he's on the phone with dispatchers, a clerk from the Circle K actually comes running over. But for some reason, even this clerk, when he first gets a look at the fire, he also thinks that someone is playing some kind of practical joke because it doesn't even look human. It looks like this big jacket and pants that were maybe stuffed with something.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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So they're like, you know what, let's just see what we can find. Go ahead, test the matchsticks. But months later, in April 2009, the lab reports come back that there is no human DNA that was detected on the matches. So after the DNA is a bust, years start to go by. Tips occasionally come in, but there are no major developments. Then in the fall of 2015, police decided to take a fresh look.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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They appoint Detective Rostenberg, who is assigned to Phoenix's cold case unit, and he reviews all of the evidence investigators collected eight years prior. Interview transcripts, audio files, lab reports, photos, everything. And in February of 2016, they decide to go all the way back to the very beginning and talk to Robert again.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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Right. And he's the one who was at the center of the rumor mill back when everything first went down.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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But now they're hoping that maybe he'll remember something new. And even if he doesn't remember anything new, maybe he'll finally stick to one story. That'd be lovely. Yeah, but that's actually the opposite of what happens because his story has changed again. And this time, not like, oh, a little, oh, Charlie said this or whatever, like a drastic change. Right.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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Robert now says that Nate's brother Max was there that night. Not only that, he says when he left the courtyard, he saw Max walking towards where Aaron and everyone else was hanging out, and he was carrying a red gas can. Um, that's not just different. That's like a big, important different. Huge. Am I wrong? Like, a gas can? Yeah, this is the first time anyone has brought up a gas can.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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And they find it hard to believe this crucial detail would just slip someone's mind, you know? Right.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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Yeah. Yeah, and again, to remind you, Max wasn't in his original version of events. He, like, was very specific in saying, like, I never saw him, but they're just, like, always together, so I assume he's there.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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Yeah. It's so strange. But, strange or not, it's been years since police have gotten anything substantial, so... They're like, maybe we just get Max's DNA just to be safe. Okay, but they don't have anything to test it against, do they? No, they don't.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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But I think the idea is to maybe get a sample just in case they can test it against something in the future or it's a chance to talk to Max or make Max think there's DNA. I don't know. What I know is that when Max comes into the station to give the sample, they try and talk to him about Aaron, but he basically asked for a lawyer right away. And like, that's the end of that.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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Now, over the years, there are a few other names or at least nicknames that kind of pop up. Like, for instance, in April of 2020, Phoenix police get an anonymous call from someone who says that word on the street is that a Hispanic man known only by the nickname Psycho took part in killing Aaron. Now, this psycho is supposedly in his mid-20s with short, dark hair, brown eyes and tattoos.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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They say he's like 5'6", 5'7", 135, 140 pounds. And he has a criminal record, although the anonymous caller didn't say what the record was for. And police are never able to identify this, quote unquote, psycho person. And apparently it's like a really popular nickname. So, like, it doesn't even narrow it down.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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And speaking of nicknames, they also never find out who Colorbanger was, if there was a Colorbanger. Like Detective Rostenberg says he might not even be a real person at all, just a fictitious nickname and description that was fed to police.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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So they were able to track down Nate, but just like his brother, he lawyered up right away and has basically overall refused to assist in the investigation. Right. As for Charlie, police haven't been able to find him. They confirmed that he moved to California, but as of the release of this episode, he still hasn't been located.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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Police would love to talk to him if he's out there and wants to give him a call. So here's where the case stands today. Investigators have preserved DNA samples from a number of people, including Donnie and Max. They're still submitting evidence for lab testing and trying to locate some of the potential key players that they never got to speak with.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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I don't know. I think it's their brain trying to like rationalize that. Like, again, it is Christmas Day. That's also the last thing you expect to find, right? Like a human burning right outside your place of work that has never happened before. Certainly not on this like family holiday, whatever. I don't know why that's the first thing that comes into their mind.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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What they really need to solve this case are eyewitness accounts, someone who can corroborate Ramon's story. Because they say it's going to be too difficult to just move forward with Ramon because he's associated with the whole incident. So Detective Rostenberg is hoping that people who know what happened to Aaron will do the right thing and come forward.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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And of course, no one wants the case solved more than Aaron's family. His sister Nikki told us how frustrating it is to try and pick up the pieces and go on without her brother, while whoever is responsible for cutting his life short gets to live theirs every single day.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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So if you have any information about the death of Aaron Taylor in 2007 on Christmas Day, please contact the Phoenix Police Department at 602-495-5883. Or you can email coldcasehomicide.ppd at phoenix.gov. There's also an option to leave anonymous tips by contacting Silent Witness at 1-800-343-TIPS. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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But this guy at least is like, OK, whatever it is, it's a fire. It needs to be put out. So he tries to actually smother the flames with his jacket, but it doesn't work. And the fire is still burning when first responders get there at 7.01, within minutes of the initial 911 call. Thankfully, when firefighters approach, they realize that this isn't a joke.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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This is definitely a man who is straddling a concrete slab bench hunched forward. So they put out the fire and they move him into the open courtyard to start CPR. And that's when Nimoy, who had come back after getting help, realizes something that makes his heart sink. He actually knows the man that was on fire.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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He can tell by his build and by his beard that it's his friend, 36-year-old Aaron Taylor. Aaron is clinging to life as an ambulance rushes him to the hospital, but he doesn't make it. He's pronounced dead in the burn unit at 7.35 p.m. Police now have to try and figure out what in the world happened.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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As Phoenix detective Dominic Rostenberg told our reporter Nina, this isn't something you see every day. I mean, the scene is kind of a mess. There's water and foam on the ground from firefighters' efforts. There is blood and black charring on the bench that Aaron was sitting on. And there's a ton of evidence to collect, like burnt remnants of clothing.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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There's little liquor bottles, snack wraps, used matches and cigarette butts.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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I don't know. Like so much of it is wet or fire damaged, but they're still at least collecting all of it just in case something can be useful now or in the future. And as they're gathering evidence, there are other officers that are interviewing witnesses that were at the Circle K.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And the story I have for you today is about a truly horrific death that you probably haven't even heard of. And that's because our victim was experiencing homelessness. And for some reason, our society has decided that we shouldn't give these stories national attention. We shouldn't become obsessed with the outcomes of those cases.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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And it turns out a lot of people in the area actually did know Aaron, either because they live nearby and they like frequent this strip mall area or they work in that strip mall area. You see, Aaron was experiencing homelessness and he spent lots of time hanging around there. His long hair and this beard that he had had earned him the nickname with locals that was Homeless Jesus.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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Nimoy tells police that he's known Aaron for like three years. He was this sweet guy who struggled with alcoholism, often drinking until he passed out. But he never bothered anybody or caused any trouble. In fact, he had just seen Aaron yesterday on Christmas Eve and he seemed happy. He had never mentioned wanting to hurt himself.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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And even though he's a smoker, Nimoy doesn't know of any times that he was careless with fire. When they talk to the Circle K clerk, he tells police that Aaron came in several times that very day to buy beer and, like, other random stuff. What he knew of Aaron was that he was lonely. He liked to talk a lot. And actually, he came in that afternoon sometime between 2.30 and 4 p.m. just to say hi.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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He'd been by himself. He didn't even seem drunk when he was there. But even though people who knew him said that he was generally pretty cheerful, it's also common knowledge in the neighborhood that he had been dealing with some severe harassment from this one group of guys. Basically, they would like get him really drunk.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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Then they would assault him, make fun of him and just do some pretty awful stuff. Like, for instance, police learned that about a year ago, this group had apparently duct taped Aaron to a bench in that very same courtyard. And there's even talk that one of them broke Aaron's ankle. Lots of people remember seeing him wearing a cast around that time.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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And it seems like everybody's heard stories of Aaron getting beat up or having things thrown at him or even having stuff stolen from him.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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Well, yeah. So police keep hearing four names in connection to the harassment. And just so you know, so from here on out, I'm going to be using pseudonyms for everyone. So they learn about two brothers, Nate and Max, and then a couple of their friends, Charlie and Donnie. And apparently this group of four are like known troublemakers.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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They like to hang around this strip mall courtyard and security guards tell police that they've actually had to boot them off the property multiple times. Once for pushing Aaron around and pouring water on him even. And every time they like stay away for a month or two and then they just start coming back. The clerk actually refers to this group as the, quote, post-high school guys.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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And that's exactly who these guys are. So Nate's the oldest at 22. His brother Max is only 17. Charlie is 20. And Donnie is 19 when all of this is happening. One witness basically tells officers these guys are like the Beavis and Butthead of the area. Like, they egg each other on to act like idiots. And this witness says that he thinks they're likely the ones who started the fire.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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Well, yes. So the Circle K employees tell police that they were in and out multiple times throughout that very afternoon. Now, before police can track these guys down, results from Aaron's autopsy come in the next day. The medical examiner determines that he was alive when he caught fire and he was severely burned on his head, his upper torso, his arms and the top of his thighs.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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His cause of death is listed as conflagration, basically a large fire. And the manner of death is undetermined because even though the circumstances are clearly suspicious, police don't know what actually happened. But they are determined to get to the bottom of it. So that same day, officers back at the strip mall start canvassing businesses for surveillance cameras.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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But we crime junkies don't buy into that. This is absolutely a case you'll be obsessed with and furious over. This is the story of Aaron Taylor. It's Christmas Day 2007, a Tuesday. And despite the holiday, there is this strip mall in Paradise Valley Village, which is a neighborhood of Phoenix, Arizona.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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Only two stores actually have them. The Circle K is one of them. And then that subway right by that courtyard. But the problem is Circle K's isn't going to do any good because it's not like trained on the courtyard where all of this went down. So they might have better luck with Subways, but it's going to take some time to download the footage and comb through it.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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So while that's going on, detectives follow up on a new lead. There is a mall security guard that reaches out to them and says that someone named Robert is at their office and he wants to speak with police about Aaron. Now, when police go to the security station that he's waiting at, they can tell that Robert's been crying. He seems really nervous.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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And once they start talking to him, it becomes clear why he's so nervous. Robert tells officers that he and a friend were with Aaron right before this all happened. He says Aaron was in the courtyard drinking with Nate and Charlie, plus two other white guys whose names that he says he doesn't know. And Robert says that he heard Charlie say, quote, end quote.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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Now, it's important that Robert does tell police that the guys were planning to give Aaron like four or five more beers. So I'm not sure if that comment was supposed to mean that they were planning to beat him up or just get him really drunk or what. Mm-hmm. Anyway, he says that he and his friend left before any kind of fire started.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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But he thinks that Nate and Charlie are involved somehow, along with Nate's brother, Max. Though Robert says he didn't actually see Max that night anywhere, but he says these brothers are always together. And so it sounds like maybe he's thinking that Max came by like after he was already gone.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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No. So for sure, he says like he would know Nate and Charlie and Max and Donnie. Like he knows all of those regular guys. So he said whoever those other two were, he didn't know them. Now, this is really interesting from Robert, and it's especially interesting because he's not the only one who can place them at the scene.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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Police get a call from a woman who says that her daughter told her that Nate had been bragging about setting Aaron on fire. Now, this is the start of a big he said, she said scenario, because as news of Aaron's death has spread, there were also rumors about what really happened and who was with him that night that start to spread as well.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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So when police contact the woman's daughter, she says that, well, you know, I didn't personally hear Nate bragging about it, but I heard this rumor that he had poured gasoline on Aaron and then lit him on fire. And she says that she heard the rumor from her boyfriend who heard it from someone else. Cool, cool, cool. So this is just a big game of telephone. Exactly. Exactly.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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So a couple of days later, investigators contact Robert again, hoping he can maybe elaborate on some of the stuff that he said. He's really like their only witness who was there right before it happened. But he says that he doesn't want to come to the station. He thinks that the people responsible for Aaron's death are going to retaliate against him for snitching.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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So instead, he agrees to meet detectives at a McDonald's where he nervously goes over his story with them one more time. And most of the story is the same. He and a friend are with Aaron, Nate, Charlie, and those two guys that he can't name. This is around 6 or 6.30.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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He says that Aaron was already drunk and someone from the group had bought him some of those little like airline bottles of liquor for Christmas. So they're like egging him on to drink like more and more and more. And before he left, he says that he heard Charlie tell Nate, quote, Aaron's going to fall hard tonight.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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Wait, that's a different comment than the one that he originally shared with police, right? That's correct. So it's a different thing that Charlie supposedly says. Yeah.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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The thing is, I don't think investigators get too hung up on that like specific quote or that difference or line or whatever, because it's not clear if Charlie reportedly said both things or if Robert truly is confused and completely swapped them out. But either way, he says that he didn't think much of the comment at the time.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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Again, whether it was the first one, the second one, he didn't know what it meant. And maybe the reason they don't spend too much time on it is because there's something else that he adds to the story that's new.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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He says that hours after the fire, this would have been around 1 a.m., that he went to the strip mall again and he was approached by a group of young men who threatened to jump and rob him. He said that he's pretty sure some of them are friends of Nate's. And although nothing ended up happening, he believes that they just wanted to intimidate him before he could talk to police.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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Now, he clarifies that he's never heard any people from that group brag about hurting Aaron, even though they do think it's funny to get him drunk and mess with him. And he says he's never heard them threaten Aaron either, aside from that one comment Charlie made, which Robert only found threatening in hindsight.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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But despite this, despite that he hasn't like seen or heard anything directly, he says he still thinks that Nate or his friends must have somehow been involved, like somehow they started that fire.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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Well, I mean, they're not sure yet, right? That's why it's undetermined. But even if it was an accident, Aaron is still dead and someone is responsible. So what they're hoping, police anyway, is that the answer is going to be in that security footage from Subway. It's going to give them something to work with.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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However, when they get it back, it turns out that none of their cameras have footage of the courtyard. So there is no way to see what happened. More importantly, there's no way to even verify Robert's story. Now, it's around this time that police are finally able to locate Aaron's family, and they have to deliver the difficult news of his death to his parents.

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MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix

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But they're hopeful maybe learning more about Aaron can potentially help them find out what led to his death. And when his family finds out, they're stunned. I mean, they're horrified to hear the details of how it happened. Though they haven't seen or even spoken to Aaron in, honestly, years, they don't understand why someone would do this to him.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm Ashley Flowers. And I'm Brit. And I've got news. I want to try to bring you guys more case updates when they happen. So we're going to try something new here. Yep. Tell us if you like it, if you want more.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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They haven't given up on finding the kids, but it's getting harder to hold out hope because every search is turning up nothing. Days turn into weeks, weeks into months. And in September, eight months after the Beaumont children went missing, a police officer in town, and this is about like 200 miles east of Adelaide, overhears an interesting conversation on his phone line.

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UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Now, this town is a really small one located like right between Adelaide and Melbourne. So what's happening is this local officer is basically trying to call the head office of Melbourne when according to the book Searching for the Beaumont Children, he hears a woman mention bringing the Beaumont kids back from Hobart on the island of Tasmania.

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UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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From what I understand, he's able to hear because somehow some wires got crossed. And I actually had to look up what this means for myself. And it kind of goes back to really old phone technology. So I looked up on Astro Telecoms about crossed wires. And apparently, it's like a pretty common problem in the old Australian phone systems infrastructure.

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UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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So basically, if you got online and you had a crossed wire, you could hear part of someone else's conversation.

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UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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The fact that he heard this is totally legit. But here's the problem. The officer who hears this thinks that it's a hoax. And everyone he talks to, the police in Adelaide, the police in Melbourne, like they all think it's a hoax too. Except for one man, Detective Sergeant Stan Swain. And he's with the South Australian police in Adelaide.

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UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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He is so convinced that the call is real that he actually calls Jim and Nancy to tell them that he believes that their children are still alive. Now, while he's informing the family of what he believed to be true, other members of the South Australian police were tracking down the woman who actually made the call, you know, ahead of telling the family member.

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UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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And they learned the real truth, that the officer who heard the call only heard parts of the conversation. And I guess once they heard the whole thing in context, they come to believe that there is no real connection to the kids. So that incident obviously was a little bit embarrassing, having raised the family's hope.

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UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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or Madeleine McCann for those in the U.K. In 1966, three young children left their home to go swimming at the beach on Australia Day and were never seen again. Their disappearance changed Australian life forever and thrust caution into the forefront of parents' minds all over the country. This is the story of the Beaumont children. January 26, 1966 is a scorching hot day in Adelaide.

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UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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But as if that's not embarrassing enough, just two months later in November, police find themselves up against a Dutch psychic who is just adamant that he knows where the kids are buried. Now, this man flies all the way to Adelaide from the Netherlands 10 months after the Beaumont kids disappeared, and it gets a whirlwind of media attention.

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UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Like this guy's basically made a name for himself by claiming to be able to use his powers to solve missing person cases back in Europe. And like while he had some luck and some maybe pretty basic guesswork, according to the satin man, I guess in some cases he also got access to some confidential police files that I'm sure helped his quote powers along.

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UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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So five years ago, when we were just baby podcasters, we covered the 1966 disappearance of the Beaumont children. And almost 60 years later, something is happening. But the thing is, you need to know the story to understand the importance of this update. So if you need a refresher, keep listening to our OG episode on the Beaumont children.

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UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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So basically, he's already famous when he rolls in. And so the local papers make a huge deal of his coming down. Word gets out to the point that there's a crowd of Adelaide citizens at the airport waiting when he arrives, hoping that after almost a year, he's going to be the one to like swoop in, solve the case and finally give the family answers.

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Now, to be super clear, police didn't pay him to come in. His trip was funded by a wealthy Adelaide citizen who actually paid all of his travel expenses. So he gets to Australia and claims that the Beaumonts are buried in a warehouse in Purringham Park. So this is a spot that he's stalking. And it's where he says they need to look in order to find the kids.

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Now, keep in mind, he has no actual evidence to back this up. So ultimately, police won't go and excavate anything based on his visions or gut instincts or whatever alone. According to Crime Traveler's article, which we talked about before, the psychic claimed that the kids weren't murdered, actually.

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He says that they died as a result of some kind of accident and that this mystery man described by witnesses had nothing to do with their disappearance. And the police, as I'm sure you can imagine, are initially pretty skeptical. And so he can't get them to dig right away. And this is my favorite part.

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He basically only stays in Australia for three days before telling the public, like, yeah, I'm done. Like, I'm going back to Europe. Like, kind of washed his hands of it. Like, they won't do what I say. So peace out. Now, despite him leaving, like you would kind of think police are like, no, we're not going to do this. He leaves. Everyone drops it.

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But because it got so much media attention and because the authorities were refusing to excavate where this psychic said, the locals in Adelaide actually raised money to finance the dig themselves. Like they were crowdfunding back in like 67. Oh, my God. And do you know what this kind of reminds me a little bit of? It kind of reminds me of the most recent development in the Maura Murray case. Yes.

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Like, remember, there was like that house that everyone, everyone was like, you have to look, you have to look. And police are like, no, like, we're pretty sure nothing's there. Like, we've been through this. And then they finally did. Because there was so much like public attention that I think they were finally like, okay, we're going to do this.

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But then after we do this, can we just do our jobs and can everyone calm down? Right. Plus, it didn't help that the place that he wanted them to like dig up was this warehouse. And someone like owned it. It's not like they were digging in the middle of the field. So there was a lot of stuff that police like did. Had to, like, try and work around.

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The owners are not happy about it. But after four months of media attention and basically demands from the public, they kind of finally just bow to the pressure and agree. Like, okay, you can dig up this one specific area where the psychic said the kids are buried.

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But what the warehouse owners say is police have to be there to make sure that everything is in order. And so what happens is a few months later after the psychic goes back to Europe with police present, they actually start a dig on March 1st of 1967, 14 months after Jane, Arna and Grant had gone missing. Now, the dig takes nine days, but when it concludes, no evidence whatsoever is found.

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And the case goes back to being cold again. Now, by this time, over a year has passed since the children disappeared, so police attention has to shift to other cases. There are new cases popping up every single day, and this gets farther and farther from their minds. Right. And though the public never forgets the case, it gets further and further from the forefront of the public's mind as well.

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That is, until Jim and Nancy receive a mysterious letter. In mid-February of 1968, this is now two years since the kids went missing, a letter written in very childlike style arrives at the Beaumont's home. It's postmarked from the Melbourne suburb of Dandenong, over 400 miles east of Adelaide, and it claims to be from Jane. And this is what it says, as published in the Satin Man book.

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Britt, I'm actually going to have you read this.

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Now, Jim does what any sensible parent would do, and he hands the letter immediately over to investigators. And he does this because right away there are some inconsistencies that stand out to police. Like, Britt, I don't know if you noticed, but the letter writer actually misspells Arna's name. Her name is actually spelled A-R-N-N-A, and the letter writer only spelt it with one N.

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And apparently, the handwriting doesn't match any of Jane's school papers. Because of these pretty important inconsistencies, police are confident that this is another mean-spirited hoax designed to toy with grieving parents. But Detective Sergeant Stan Swain, the same guy who was so sure that the crossed wires call was a clue, is totally convinced that the letter is real.

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And he's so sure of it that he manages to persuade Jim and Nancy to make a secret trip to Dandenong.

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Stan tells the Beaumonts that he himself compared the handwriting in the letter to the samples in Jane's school books. And he decided that it was a match, which feels like maybe he's going a bit rogue because the department already said that that they weren't a match and that these were a fake.

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And according to searching for the Beaumont children, Stan's boss told him, like, dude, you got to let this go. But he just couldn't. So going over his superior's heads and getting Jim and Nancy's hopes up once again is bad enough. But it just boggles my mind that this guy is willing to do it a second time when it seems just as unlikely to pan out into something real.

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Like, to me, that's just borderline cruel. Yeah. But cruel or not, a desperate Jim, guided by Stan, follows the letter's instructions exactly. He gets the right clothes, stands outside the Dandenong post office while Stan keeps watch, and a phone call actually comes into the post office saying that, quote, the man has been delayed, but he'll be there soon. Wait, is this actually legit?

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Well, it kind of seems that way, right? So they wait, right? And wait, and wait, and day fades into evening, and neither the children nor this mystery man ever show up. Now, the next day, the same thing happens. Jim stays in front of the post office while Stan does surveillance, eager for any sign of the children or their abductor. And this goes on for three days.

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Then the media gets their hands on the story because, get this, Stan actually booked a hotel room under his real name. And reporters find out that he's there with Jim and Nancy. So the whole thing blows up in the press. The operation is essentially busted.

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And because of all this attention to this lead in the press, it actually results in more letters from the same town arriving at the Beaumont's home back in Adelaide. Oh. Someone claiming to be, quote, the man actually writes to Jim and Nancy himself this time, taunting them for involving police and even blaming them for not being able to get their children back. But is this one real?

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I mean, the general belief is that this is yet another hoax. Even the call? Even the call.

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Well, so in that book, Searching for the Beaumont Children, it actually kind of talks about this. By the time all of this goes down in Dandenong in 68, Stan is obsessed with the case. And he almost views this as just a little setback instead of the disaster that it really is. Like his ability to separate himself from the investigation is just totally gone.

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Despite the weather, the city is brimming with excitement because not only is it Australia Day with this long weekend coming up, but there's also an upcoming Ashes cricket test match. So the city is teeming with sports fans from all across the country. The South Australian state capital, Adelaide, is this coastal city on the St. Vincent Gulf.

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And unfortunately, Jim and Nancy, who suffer the most because of it,

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Right. And treating this obvious red herring as a credible lead effectively ends Stan's career in law enforcement. So he's kind of done. The Beaumonts return to their hometown. They kind of swear off talking to the media once and for all. And once again, the case goes cold.

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Now, five years go by with no developments, no new leads until August 25th of 1973, when something terrible and all too familiar happens. Two young children go missing in an eerily similar fashion to the Beaumonts. Now, it's two young girls, 11-year-old Joanne Radcliffe and 4-year-old Kirstie Gordon. Now, they go missing from a highly public location, again, in broad daylight.

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They're at the Adelaide Oval Stadium to watch an Australian rules football match with their families. Now, Joanne is there with her parents, Les and Kathleen, and their family friends, Frank, while Kirstie is there with her grandmother, Rita. Now, since Rita knows Joanne's parents, she lets Joanne take Kirstie to the bathroom around 3.50 p.m. during the match's third quarter.

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She expects that the two girls are going to come right back, except after about 15 minutes, there's still no sign of them. So Les and Kathleen start searching around the stadium, but they're unable to find any trace of either Kirstie or Joanne. So they go to the Oval's head office and ask for basically an announcement to be made about the missing children.

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But since play is in progress, the announcement isn't made until after the quarter ends, which costs investigators and the family a lot of valuable time. Oh, my gosh. Forget about the game. There are two missing kids. Well, yet you'd think the office staff basically kind of rationalized it by saying, look, if we made this announcement while the game's going on, no one's really going to hear it.

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No one's going to pay attention. There's really no point, which maybe. But can we at least try? It's like my feeling like as a parent, I wouldn't care. Like, let's do it now. Let's do it later. I want you to keep doing it until you find my kid. But anyway, so police get involved and they start their search efforts.

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And right away, similarities between Joanne and Kirstie's disappearance and the Beaumont children's disappearance start to appear. Like, think about it. Both of these abductions happen in very public locations. With the Beaumonts, you have a crowded beach and a reserve. And now you have a packed stadium with over 12,000 people when Kirstie and Joanne vanish. Yeah.

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Also, just like in the case of the missing Beaumont kids, witnesses in this new case put the two girls in the company of an unidentified man.

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One of Oval's employees, this guy named Ken, tells police that he saw a man with the two girls, two girls who matched the girl's description, trying to lure some kittens out from underneath a car that was parked in one of the equipment sheds on the grounds near the stadium.

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And since the temperature is due to get up to 40 degrees Celsius, which is like 104 degrees Fahrenheit, the local beaches are packed on this day. Everybody has the same idea to beat the heat by heading to the ocean, maybe stopping at one of the local restaurants to pick up some lunch, doing just like the usual stuff to enjoy the day without just hiding inside until the sun goes down.

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And Ken didn't think this was weird at the time because I guess a lot of stray cats kind of hung out in, around, or near the stadium and kids were always wanting to play with them. But he describes this man as being about five foot, eight inches tall, middle-aged, and said he was wearing this kind of distinctive gray checkered sport jacket with brown pants and a brown hat.

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They find another witness as well. This time it was a teenage boy who corroborates Ken's account, and they don't get to talk to this guy until like a week later. The Canberra Times reported back on August 31st of 73 that the teenager witnessed a man forcibly maneuvering the two girls toward one of the exits and into the public parking lot.

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And the teenager said that the man was actually carrying Kirstie under one arm and dragging a struggling Joanne away with the other. And his description of the man matched Ken's down to the man's gray coat and brown hat. So armed with these two matching descriptions, a local Adelaide art teacher actually paints a portrait of the unidentified man.

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And when the depiction is shown to the public, it shocks everyone. The portrait of the unidentified man from the Adelaide Oval disappearances resembles the sketch of the stranger who was last seen with Jane, Arna, and Grant Beaumont. And here, I want you to check this out for yourself, Britt. This is the same guy. This is exactly the same guy. I mean, the long face.

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It's the same guy with a hat on. That's the only difference. Yeah, the long face, the forehead. I mean, granted, you can't see his hair because of the hat, but everything else is exactly the same.

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Like, to me, the only difference is, you know, the guy at the Oval Stadium, we call him Oval Guy, he's described as around 5'8", and Beaumont Guy is described as over 6' tall. But that height discrepancy is kind of negligible in my mind. Like witnesses can be off and depending on their stature, I think that's something that can easily be misjudged. Oh, definitely. We're 5'2".

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Everybody's tall to me. Everyone's so tall. But more than anything, they consider the cases as possibly connected because the M.O. is so similar. Like the victims are similar. Both the crimes are so brazen. And yet police have to look at the odds of having a dangerously skilled serial abductor in their midst now.

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Whoever snatched Joanne and Kirstie seems to be just as good at hiding them as whoever took Jane, Arna, and Grant. Again, days turn into weeks and months with no break in the case and no clue about what might have happened to them. And just like in the Beaumont case, Joanne and Kirstie's case goes cold. Years go by with no definitive links outside of basically conspiracy theories.

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But in 1990, 17 years after the Adelaide Oval disappearances, and this is now 24 years after the Beaumonts went missing, the Adelaide media learns that the South Australian police are diving in this place called Maiponga Reservoir, which is 34 miles south of Adelaide. Now, ordinarily, this could easily be brushed off as like a training exercise or something.

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All in all, it is a good, peaceful Wednesday in the city. But then, sometime between 5 and 6 p.m. that evening, everything changes. A middle-aged married couple comes into the station. Grant, usually known as Jim, and Nancy Beaumont are worried sick because their three young children left home to go to Glenelg Beach that morning a little bit before 10 o'clock and they never came back.

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Just something police won't confirm or deny, whatever. But their dive just so happened to take place after a witness in another murder case testifies that the Beaumonts are buried in that reservoir. Wait, go back. What other murder case? So it's actually multiple murder cases.

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So when this is going on, there are actually some really horrific killings in and around Adelaide in the late 70s and early 80s. And they were known as the family murders. And I'm only going to touch on them briefly here, but we're actually going to do like a more in-depth audio extra over in our fan club. So if you're interested, you can go there on our website.

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If you're already in the fan club, you can check that out after the episode. But let me tell you, these murders are pretty gruesome. From 1979 to 1983, five young men named Alan, Neil, Mark, Peter, and Richard go missing and are later found dead.

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Now, four of the five were drugged and sexually tortured, and autopsies determined that they all died from blood loss stemming from severe anal injuries caused by insertion of a blunt object. Neil, Mark and Peter's bodies are found in pieces and Mark had been cut from his navel to his pubic bone and then re-sewn up with parts of his small intestine missing. Do we know how the fifth person died?

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Well, not really. So Peter went missing during the same time period as the others, but his body was accidentally burned by a farmer who obviously had no idea there was a corpse on his property and he was doing some like controlled burns. So it's not known for sure how he died. All that was found was his skeleton cut into pieces like Neil and Mark.

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And the connection is on how he'd been mutilated after he died. Now, despite the connections and that they all seem super similar, only one of these murders is ever officially solved. Several of the victims were drugged with the same two prescription sedatives. So police use pharmacy records to kind of narrow down their suspect list. And it pays off when they find this Adelaide man named Bevan.

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Police get a warrant for his house where, according to the book Searching for the Beaumont Children, they find both drugs as well as hair and fibers linking him to Richard, who was the fifth victim. Now, Bevan is charged and convicted for Richard's death in 1984 and sentenced to life in prison. Then, five years later, in 1989, he's charged with killing Alan and Mark.

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So in Bevan's second trial is where this mysterious witness, who we only know as Mr. B due to confidentiality, testifies that Bevan was the one that snatched the Beaumont children. And he also says that he's the one that took Kirstie and Joanne from the Adelaide Oval Stadium as well. And it's because of his testimony that he's the one that says that the kids are buried at the reservoir.

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And so police are doing this dig. Then these records come out and the public is kind of putting this together. And so now all of a sudden Bevan's name is linked to the Beaumont kids. And as you can imagine, the media goes nuts.

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Like this is not one, not two, but three of the most infamous crimes in South Australia history tied possibly together and potentially committed by the same person who's already in jail and off the streets. Like it seems like it could be a wonderful success story, like almost too good to be true. And realistically, it might be.

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Especially since in the book, Searching for the Beaumont Children, Mr. B's credibility as a witness is seriously shaky. And they basically bring that up in court as well. Like he admits to participating in one of the rapes and he only agreed to testify after being granted full immunity.

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And he insists that he deserves the full financial reward for, quote unquote, solving the crime, which makes no sense to me if you're also participated in raping some of the victims. Now, I couldn't find if he actually got the award, but I mean, since none of his testimony about the Beaumonts or Adelaide Oval was ever proven to be remotely true, I would be shocked if he actually got anything.

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Now, the additional murder charges that Bevin went to court for are eventually dropped. And during the trial, he's not convicted. But thankfully, he is still in jail for killing Richard. And in my opinion, and this is just my opinion, I don't think he's the one responsible for the Beaumonts. For the family murders, absolutely.

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Now, they were expected to be home first around like noon, but they never showed. And at first, their mom, Nancy, just kind of assumed that maybe they lost track of time. Maybe they missed the first bus and then they're going to be on the second. So she waits for the next bus to come, but they're not on the two o'clock bus either.

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But the Beaumonts and the Adelaide Oval kidnappings don't match the family pattern to me at all. Like four of the five missing children that we're talking about are girls. And the oldest girl that we're talking about is 11. Whereas in the family victims, those victims are boys that range from 14 to 25.

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He would have been in his early 20s at the time the kids went missing in 66, which is really too young to match the descriptions of the man seen at the beach. But again, it's worth mentioning because if you would do any research on this case, like his name is going to come up.

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Exactly. But there's a lot that doesn't add up to me. And Bevan's never been charged with anything related to the Beaumonts or the Adelaide Oval disappearances. So after the trial in 1990, the Beaumont case goes cold yet again. And in 1992, the Dandenong letters are proven once and for all to be a fake when fingerprint analysis directs police to a man who

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who had been a teenager back in the late 60s. And listen, he's never been named publicly, but according to authorities, he's actually admitted to writing all of the letters as a hoax. Now, time keeps passing. And while new theories often connect new suspects to the Beaumont's case, like including some other pretty notorious child killers across Australia, None of them are ever proven.

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Like in 1998, eight years after that whole like reservoir dig, there was this 86-year-old man named Arthur who was arrested for the unsolved 1970 rape and murder of a five-year-old and seven-year-old pair of sisters. Now, he's charged with a whole host of offenses for sexually assaulting a young woman and other girls and in his own family.

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And the reason he even got tied to it initially was that Andrew Rule actually reported for Sun-Herald in 2001 that a witness saw Arthur on TV after his arrest. And he placed him at Adelaide Oval with the two girls matching Joanne and Kirstie's description. And then they're thinking, well, whoever took those girls are thought to have taken the Beaumonts.

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And that's kind of where that connection is made. But eventually, police completely clear him of any suspicion in the Beaumont and the Adelaide Oval cases. And he's like totally ruled out by like 2001. Now, five years later in 2007, the Herald Sun reported that convicted child murderer Derek Percy had been questioned by police like back in 2005 in relation to the Beaumonts.

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And although he's thought to be responsible for at least eight other child's deaths, South Australian police told the Australian Broadcasting Corporation in 2014 that he was definitely not a significant person of interest for the Beaumonts. Like he was already in prison when Joanne and Kirstie were snatched up.

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So the parents try searching on their own at first, but after hours with no sign of the kids, Jim and Nancy knew that they had to go straight to police. According to Alan Whitaker and Stuart Mullen's book called Searching for the Beaumont Children and their follow-up The Satin Man, the police spring into action right away.

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So if the theory of, you know, the two cases being connected was real, like he couldn't have done both. And he doesn't really match the description from the beach. Now, despite these possibilities and, you know, the case getting renewed over and over again, No, like, real credible links ever emerged. And eventually, public fascination dims, though it never fully dies.

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And eventually, a book is published a full 40 years after Jane, Arna, and Grant disappeared. And this is when writer Alan Whitaker and his research partner Stuart Mullins published the book Searching for the Beaumont Children, which is considered one of the most definitive and comprehensive accounts of this mystery. And it's a book that we've referenced a couple of times throughout this episode.

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I highly recommend it. But when they published this book, it's 2006 now, mind you, and despite the 40-year lapse in time, everyone was about to be shocked to find out that there was still secrets out there waiting to be uncovered. And people who held those secrets were finally ready to talk.

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Because that's when Alan and Stuart get a phone call that changes everything that they and the police thought that they knew about this case. The person who called Allen and Stewart is a woman named Angela who believes that her former father-in-law had something to do with the Beaumont children's disappearance.

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She says that her ex-husband, a man named Hayden, confided that he saw his father with the Beaumonts on the day that they disappeared. Now, at first, Alan doesn't take Angela too seriously. He's gotten calls like this before, and he's had his fair share of run-ins with wannabe sleuths from all walks of life.

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But as the conversation continues, Alan realizes that not only is Angela's story fascinating, it's also really believable. So he and Stuart do some investigation basically into Angela and her background. Basically, they're trying to collect references to see, you know, if she can be considered trustworthy. Yeah, like to make sure that she's legit. Yeah. And all of her references come back glowing.

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So Stuart reaches out and he arranges a meeting. And this one meeting turns into a years-long investigation by authors, experts, private investigators, retired detectives, and others with dozens of interviews all around Australia in their meticulous hunt for the truth. And their findings become another book, which they titled The Satin Man, which we've also referenced throughout this episode.

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Yeah. Now... The title of the book refers to a brand new suspect, the satin man. And the satin man is Angela's ex-father-in-law. Now, the authors in their book use pseudonyms for their subjects. But police and numerous news outlets like the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, the New Daily and CNN have all confirmed the satin man's true identity. So who is it?

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His name was Harry Phipps, and he actually died back in 2004 without ever being on police's radar. Now, he was never investigated in his lifetime for any connection to the Beaumont children, but according to those who knew him best, the Harry seen in private was a far different man from the one presented to the public. The first and best known sign of Harry's, we'll call it a double life, is

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When they get a description from their parents, they learn that Jane is the oldest at nine years old and she's super responsible, an excellent caretaker for her younger siblings. There's seven-year-old Arna and four-year-old Grant. And they learned that she left the house in a pink bathing suit with a little white purse to keep her money in. Now, Jane is also the swimmer of the three.

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is right there in the book's title, his obsession with satin. Harry was infamous within his family and their inner circle for having a satin fetish, like not a healthy fetish or interest, but one that was so consuming that literally no one was allowed to even wear satin near him because just the sight and sound of the fabric caused an instant uncontrollable arousal.

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And according to the book, Harry made his own satin pajamas and dresses for sexual gratification, and he kept them in a private room in the house that the rest of the family was forbidden from entering.

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What? Satin, man.

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Totally.

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Well, no, that's true. Like the obsession with satin doesn't. Except according to Harry's son, Hayden, there's more, like a lot more. Harry was a violent alcoholic who loved firearms. And his son says that he kept guns all over the house. And he also said that he had frequent outbursts against his immediate family and threatened them many times with his weapons. But it gets even worse beyond that.

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Hayden confided in Angela that he had been violently raped by his father multiple times a week for many years growing up. And the abuse only stopped when he got big enough to defend himself. And basically, his dad's fetish of satin kind of ended up haunting him because... He said he was haunted by the swish of the satin fabric coming down the hallway.

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So he, where his dad couldn't be around it because it was too much and he was too aroused. I don't even think he could be around it later because it brought back so many awful traumatic memories.

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Now, obviously, because Harry was never on anyone's radar, none of this was reported to the South Australian police at the time. And Harry was never charged with a crime. But by the time Harry comes into law enforcement's attention through Alan and Stuart, they've collected a whole laundry list of circumstantial evidence that casts a ton of suspicion on him.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Now, first, there's his status and his wealth. Harry was a very successful businessman, and he owned the Castaway factory in Plimpton, which is like a suburb of the area. Now, being rich and well-connected and prominent in Adelaide social circles was a great cover in the 1960s. Like, Harry didn't fit anyone's idea of what they thought a pedophile was.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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So Jim and Nancy were confident that she would keep an eye on Arna and Grant and make sure that they didn't go too far out into the surf. At the very start of this investigation, police don't want to believe the worst. The initial thought is that maybe the kids lost track of time, kind of like what their mom thought.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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And so police never even looked in his direction. Plus, remember how the Beaumont kids bought their lunch at that bakery with that one pound note? Yeah. So apparently Harry was big on flaunting his wealth by handing out one pound notes to Hayden and his friends to like get them out of the house on Saturday so he could be alone with his satins.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Yeah. So it's like, here, here's some money. Now go away. And it's a habit that kind of continued into the next generation when Hayden's son, Nick, who apparently like lived with Harry for a time after his parents' divorce, like he would give him money as well.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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So although he's never publicly said that his grandfather did anything to him, Nick also alleges that sexually inappropriate experiences occur. Now, in the book, Nick tells Stuart about how Harry would rub up against him when they went swimming together, and that's kind of like the most that we got.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Yes. So this is like our biggest piece of circumstantial evidence. Australia 7 News did a documentary about Harry in 2018. And they have audio of an interview that Hayden did with one of the satin man's investigators where he recalls seeing the Beaumont children on the day that they disappeared at his family house on Australia Day 1966. Here, I'll play it for you.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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And when they realized, like, actually how late that they were, maybe that made them freak out more and things kind of, like, escalated.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Now, I know that audio is a little rough to hear, so just to summarize, Hayden said that basically he saw three kids at his family's house on the day that the Beaumont kids disappear. And one was drastically shorter than the other two, and that would match because Jane and Arna were kind of close in height-ish, and Grant was much shorter being the youngest.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Now, I know that audio is a little rough to hear, Then he says they were gone. The front door is wide open. And he hears later that day or at some point that day for gunshots. OK, but that doesn't mean anything because he said he heard gunshots all the time, right? Right. No, that's that's totally accurate.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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But later in that same interview, Hayden says that he saw Harry putting some big like PVC bags in the trunk of his car, which, again, at the time didn't seem weird to him because it's how Harry would transport his satin dresses to other properties he owned. And he said, you know, to be very clear, like, I never saw the children leave the house, which, by the way, I haven't mentioned this yet.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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His house just happens to be within a very easy walking distance of Collier Reserve and Glenelg Beach. Now, Hayden believes that the kids were buried at Harry's factory in what he calls a sandpit. Now, Harry's factory, again, very close to everything we're talking about. It was just a short drive from the beach.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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The resemblance is uncanny. I want to send you this gif. So we took a video that Australia 7 News made, and we made it into a gif. And it is the sketch image, and then it kind of morphs into Harry's picture. Hang on, hang on just a second. You're gonna, you're gonna flip.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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That's what they're thinking. So with that in mind, police actually start their search at the Beaumont's home in hope that the little ones like kind of snuck back in to hide somewhere and wait for mom and dad and wait for them to not be so upset. Now, to be clear, at first, investigators aren't suspicious of Jim or Nancy.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Well, so here's the thing. So Harry was 48 in 1966. So it's a little bit older, but he kept himself in really good shape. And so he actually always looked much younger than he was.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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He's got that like... Identical. High forehead. The hairline's spot on. He does have kind of a long face. Yeah.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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like accurate one I've ever seen especially for to me you know the sketch has like some prominent features like that forehead and the long face but it also it can be kind of vague but my goodness is it close so we're gonna I'll put this um gif on our Instagram if you guys need to see it you need to see it a crime junkie podcast on Instagram um

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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But despite all of the coincidences so far, the South Australia police declined to get too involved when Alan and Stuart first get in touch. And this is back in like 2007. I mean, Harry's been dead for years at this point. So it's not like they can really arrest him. And they kind of are like, you know, we've got a ton of active cases to work on.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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So according to the Satin Man book, police say that they've already reviewed their evidence and talked to Harry's widow, which was his second wife, and found that she's a dead end. But Alan and Stuart decide to talk to her anyways. Now, she was Harry's housekeeper before they got married and also took care of him after his health started to really decline.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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So she had a front row seat into his weird fetishes. Now, I wasn't able to verify her real name like I could with the other people. So I'll just call her Norma like they do in the book. So Stuart arranges a meeting with Norma, who still lives at the same house in Glenelg. And he goes to talk to her. Now, right away, Norma does two things that he finds odd.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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First, she denies ever talking to the South Australia police. And she brings up the Adelaide Oval disappearances completely unprovoked in relation to the Beaumonts. Now, she's really friendly and welcoming, though, like happy to talk about Harry, happy to show Stuart all over the house. And she takes him in the basement as part of like their tour.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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They just want to cover all their bases to see if this can be resolved quickly. Right. But unfortunately, it can't, since a long and thorough search of the house doesn't turn up any sign of the children. And by now, it's getting dark outside, and Jim and Nancy keep reiterating to police that their kids would not willingly be outside after dark.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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And he catches sight of something really strange down there. A little white children's purse. A purse very much like the one Jane Beaumont had the day that she vanished. Oh! So Stuart asks her about the purse without necessarily like mentioning why he's interested or that it's connected to Jane.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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And Norma gets like kind of upset and says that, oh, you know, I just bought it at a thrift store, which is kind of weird for a woman her age. Like they kind of point out that she's got like a lot of means. She's pretty wealthy. Like why is she buying a child's purse at a thrift store? So. They tell police about this, but by the time police are alerted and they get to the house. It's not there.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Exactly. Norma claims to have thrown the purse away and it is never seen again.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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But without the purse, though, police are forced to return to seeing Norma as a dead end. Yet again, years pass. Allen and Stewart continue their research. And once The Satin Man is published in 2013, even more people come forward. And once again, this kind of stirs like all of the public interest. It's completely renewed.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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And this time, all the renewed interest, like they actually have a person of interest in their sites. And they can maybe now use new technology to try and locate the children. And this new technology reveals something that may finally thaw this cold case.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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The South Australian police use ground penetrating radar technology to search around Harry's old factory in Adelaide, the one that Hayden thought that he had buried the kids at. The search, according to Nigel Hunt for the Advertiser newspaper, turns up an anomaly in the soil, which can indicate that it's moved or that something or someone is buried there.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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So armed with that precise location, police now get involved and they excavate a one square meter space in search of anything to definitively tie Harry to the Beaumont children. But like so many times before, this dig turns up nothing.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Yeah. Oh, yeah. So they're actually at the time that this happened, they're still alive and still in Adelaide. And in fact, that's actually one of the reasons that police really start looking into Harry as a suspect, because they want to give Jim and Nancy some closure after all of these years of waiting for the truth. And...

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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So investigators start mobilizing more local resources to widen the search. In order to do that, the Adelaide police send five boats from the Sea and Rescue Squadron out to the St. Vincent Gulf to shine their bright lights across the dark waters in hopes of spotting something. But over and over again, their light just flashes on still dark water. They come up with nothing.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Truth is kind of an odd thing, though, because even when it's hidden in the darkest family secrets, like those of a man like Harry, it begins to come out eventually. So the allegations of his horrific sexual deviancy take on a new life in January 2018 when Australian TV premieres a new feature called Seven News Investigates the Beaumont Children, What Really Happened?

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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And a woman who chooses to remain anonymous identifies Harry as the man who brutally raped her in 1979 when she was just 14 years old. At the time, she was living with her family right near Harry's factory, and she kept quiet for the same reason as Hayden and so many other sexual assault victims. She was shameful about what happened.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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She had a fear of him, maybe a fear that no one would believe her. But again, since Harry's dead and all the physical evidence of sexual assault is long gone, there's nothing for police to investigate. Really, her story just kind of corroborates that he wasn't a good guy. But this same 7 News documentary does bring forward something that they can look into. Because a man named David...

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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who was a teenager back in 66 when the Beaumonts disappeared, comes forward and tells the investigators or producers of this show that once he did a unique job for Harry. David says Harry hired him and his older brother Robin to dig a hole at the Castelloy grounds behind the factory during that long Australia Day weekend, just days after Jane, Arna, and Grant Beaumont had vanished.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Now, according to David, the hole was about seven yards long, about one yard wide, and about as deep as a young boy is tall. And he said it was located away from where that 2013 dig had taken place. Now, they didn't think anything weird of this job at the time because they had no reason to doubt Harry's, like, you know, again, he's this nice upstanding citizen.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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He was paying them good money for their labor. But David said it wasn't until decades later when he saw that Harry was on the news that he finally made the connection to the Beaumont children. So armed with this fresh information as well as a fresh location to search, police, archaeologists, and forensic experts returned to the old Castaway factory.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Melinda McMillan wrote for Newcastle Star in 2018 about the search team who had basically what they found was more soil anomalies right near where David said he and Robin had dug back in 66, which makes sense because, you know, anomalies can show anything, even digging. And we know they dug there.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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So it's not a lot up front, but it's at least enough to spark yet another excavation. And before the dig, police officially name Harry as a suspect in the disappearance of the Beaumont children. So on February 2nd, 2018, the second dig at Castelloy begins. But it's called off after less than 12 hours when investigators turn up nothing but some old animal bones.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Yeah, exactly. And especially with this, like, mountain or at least a hill of circumstantial evidence, I think Harry is still a fantastic suspect. And I don't think that they've removed him from their suspect list. I have no doubt that he absolutely was a sadistic pedophile during his lifetime, and the scars that he left on his victims are clear.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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But who knows if we'll ever get a 100% clear answer about his possible involvement with the Beaumonts. Like, police still believe that the Adelaide Oval disappearances are connected to the Beaumont kids. So if Harry's responsible for one, it's totally possible that he's connected to the other. But so much time has passed.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Memories fade and many of the people who encountered him, including Hayden and Angela, are now deceased. Nancy Beaumont herself passed away just a little bit ago on September 16th of 2019 in Adelaide at age 92.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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With more people getting involved in all this activity, the local media now starts noticing what's going on. They're thinking like, hey, something is happening. And a bulletin goes out at about 10 o'clock that evening. Now, mind you, this is like a full 12 hours since the kids got on that bus that morning.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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And her husband, the Beaumont's father, Jim, he's actually still alive, presumably still carrying the hope that however unlikely it might be after all this time, he might still learn the truth about what really happened to Jane, Arna, and Grant on that fateful day. Okay, so since the release of that episode in January of 2020, Jim Beaumont has passed away.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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He died in April of 2023 at the age of 97, never knowing what happened to his three kids. But just because he's gone doesn't mean that Jane, Arna, or Grant don't have advocates. And when those advocates recently heard that the property where the person of interest, Harry Phipps' factory, used to be was going to get developed...

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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they were quick to jump on this and tell the government, like, now is the time to do a renewed search of this area. Not only the best time, but possibly the last time they even can. Truly. Like, whatever is going to go in there will probably make it hard, if not impossible, to ever search this area again. But it is a good news, bad news situation. Like, so bad news, never again.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Good news is that the demolition they're having to do to prepare to put this land up for sale also makes this, like, the best chance that they've ever gotten to search this place really thoroughly. So this is all happening quick. Like this search was just announced at the top of February 2025, and it is going to be happening February 22nd.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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And the dig is focused on three areas, two of which were the subjects of the previous searches back in 2013 and then again in 2018. And the location of the third area isn't exactly clear at this point, but it's stemming from an investigation by this TV show called The Hunters that documents high profile Australian crimes.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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I guess they have a docuseries about the Beaumonts coming out actually just the day after the dig on February 23rd. So keep an eye out for that. And I guess this third dig location is coming out of the investigation that they did. So it sounds like maybe they're unearthing something new. Now, this dig, importantly, is also going to go deeper and wider than the previous digs have.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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According to an article from the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, a member of parliament named Frank Pangelo is organizing the search. And he says that the ground is like one to two meters or like three to six and a half feet higher than it was back in 1966, just to like the amount of fill that's been added over the years.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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And they push this bulletin out to the evening TV, radio, asking anyone if they've seen the missing kids. While the news of the missing children is being broadcast, police are still hard at work at Glenelg. The Sydney Morning Herald reported in 1966 that police even had aqualung divers go into the Glenelg boat marina to search underwater.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Neither. So it's being done by a private firm with a couple of forensic archaeologists and some university students. But I will say the police are aware of the search. They're going to be supervising it just in case they do find anything. We don't like lose chain of custody.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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And in the event that they find something, the search will then stop and then like the official investigators will pick it up.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Now, it's worth noting that the police don't think that this area that they're digging is supported by the evidence that they have. So I don't know what that means. I don't know what it is they have that they're saying like, no, definitely not.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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I'm gonna be really curious to watch this new docuseries, figure out what has made them so confident in this area again, but particularly in this like new place there.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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And I'm going to be all over the news outlets over the next few days seeing if anything turns up. Now, you guys, is the time to like set your Google alerts like I know Brit does. So that's the fast and dirty, you guys. I hope you enjoyed this update. Please make sure to reach out to us on social to tell us if you want more like this.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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And we'll be back Monday with your regularly scheduled programming.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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But the water was like super murky and there was like almost little to no visibility. But despite the setbacks, they continue all through the night on land, in sea, even checking storm drains that flush out into the ocean. And they also even have people traversing up and down the rocky coastline looking for cave-ins and landslides anywhere that the kids could possibly be.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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But listen, we got to where we are for a reason. The story is still a good one. So please enjoy this blast from the past. And at the end, we're going to jump back in and tell you the big news that is happening this week. Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And since yesterday was Australia Day, for our wonderful listeners down under... Oh, let's not do that.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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At this point, their thinking is starting to change. They no longer think the kids are hiding, but now they start to wonder if maybe the kids got into some kind of accident. You know, with kid logic, when you're doing something, you're going on a strange adventure, so you go into a cave or someone will bury you in sand and it's

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Yeah. So they're thinking, like, if Jane, Arna, and Grant are maybe stuck somewhere and they can't get out, like, time is of the essence. Plus, Arna and Grant aren't great swimmers. And so they're thinking, gosh, they could have gotten carried out. Maybe Jane went. She was a strong swimmer to try and, like, rescue them. But she failed. And they, like, have all the more reason to find them quickly.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Yeah.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Yeah. So according to the book, The Satin Man, police start off the investigation with three main scenarios in mind about what could have happened. Either A, the kids drown, B, they ran away, or C, that they've been kidnapped. Now, drowning gets ruled out pretty fast because the sea had been calm the day before when the kids disappeared.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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And the beach had plenty of lifeguards who everyone assumed would have noticed if three children like went in the water and were getting swept away. Plus, none of the Beaumont's belongings were found left on shore, which is what you would expect to see if they had like gone into the ocean and then never come out. So drowning gets ruled out pretty quickly.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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And so does the idea of the three kids just running away like they're happy kids. There's nothing in their past behavior to suggest that they would leave home like that. So police have to quickly set that idea aside as well. And since the kids aren't thought to have run away and they aren't thought to have drowned, that leaves investigators with the most frightening prospect of all.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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That someone was able to take not one, but all three young children from a crowded area in broad daylight.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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So, yes, and this is where all of the media attention really comes in handy, because not only does that media attention lead to the biggest volunteer mobilization in Australian history, like Sarah Garcia reported for the Australian Broadcasting Corporation in 2018, but it also means that information starts flooding into police stations.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Now, while some of these so-called tips are hoaxes, some of them are from credible witnesses. And coupled with what police know from Jim and Nancy, a picture of the kids' last movements really starts to appear, including some information about a person who may hold the key to the entire investigation.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Numerous witnesses who were on or near Glenelg Beach on the day that the kids disappear tell investigators about seeing the Beaumont children playing with an unidentified man. Now, these statements and the South Australian's police incident report place the children and their mysterious companion at a place called Collie Reserve Park right near the beach before they disappeared.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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There are also people who just saw the children alone. So in that book, Searching for the Beaumont Children, it said that the bus driver who picked them up remembered them getting on the bus at about 10 o'clock. Now, there's this guy named Tom, who's the local postman, and he remembered saying hello to little Grant, who greeted him back and seemed totally happy and fine.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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And initially, Tom couldn't remember if he saw them in the morning or the afternoon. But police end up checking his shift schedule and, like, his records and determined that he had to have seen them in the morning based on when Tom was working. And they put that sighting at around 10.15, right when he starts his shift.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Then one of Jane's classmates reports seeing the siblings that morning at about 11.15. Now, all of those sightings so far are just of the kids. After this, though, other witnesses come forward who say they saw the children with this unidentified man. Now, there are three separate witnesses who saw them together. There is a man who was in town to watch the cricket match.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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I think we did that in the fan club once where we tried to do Australian accents. It's really bad, you guys. But anyways, we wanted to celebrate by telling you about one of the most infamous and enduring mysteries in Australian history. But before we tell you our story, though, we want to send our thoughts to everyone in Australia during this horrific brush fire season.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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There was a middle-aged woman. And then there was this 74-year-old woman. And together, they help police, like, piece together the activities of the kids later in the day. Now, as far as police can put together, it seems that the 74-year-old woman likely was the first to see the kids together with this man. She says that she saw them sometime between 11 and 11.30 in the morning.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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And then all three of the witnesses give police a description of what this stranger looks like.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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According to this article I found called The Disappearance of the Beaumont Children, Murder and Misadventure, and it's on the Crime Traveler's website, all three witnesses described the man as being in his mid to late 30s, tall and tanned with a long, thin face and light brown hair that was neat and parted to one side.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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But interestingly, the middle-aged woman tells police that she did more than just see the man. She actually spoke to him. Melbourne's The Age newspaper reported in early February of 66 that this man approached her at Glenelg Beach a little bit before noon and he was with the three kids.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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And he approached her telling her that their money had been stolen and asking her if she'd seen anyone like rummaging through their things because she was like sitting right near their stuff. So if anything had happened, she would have likely seen it. Now, she didn't see anything. She doesn't remember anything. They didn't talk anymore beyond this.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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But she was able to tell police that based on his accent, he was definitely Australian. They have the 74-year-old woman actually sit down with a sketch artist from a local newspaper and describe the man, resulting in this portrait of a strange man that police are now desperate to locate. And here, Brett, I am actually going to send you a picture of the sketch that they came up with.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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So according to the Age newspaper, people described seeing this man, quote, frolicking with the kids before noon, which sounds to me like he was kind of like playing with them. Everyone was having a good time. You know, I think it's completely different from what we might imagine of him just like shoving them in a car or forcibly taking them.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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And what we have from this lady, too, about him like coming up and asking about the money, it sounds like the kids were interacting with him and probably felt safe, like they could trust him.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Now, what's super interesting is that since they appear to be enjoying themselves with this stranger, I find it strange that the last credible sighting of the children actually doesn't include him. So there was a staff member at a bakery in Glenelg, and this bakery was in very easy walking distance from both the beach and the Colley Reserve.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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And this person tells police that the three kids came in to buy themselves some lunch around midday. And this in itself isn't unusual since Jane, Arna, and Grant had been to this very shop before and they were recognized by the staff. What is weird is how they bought their food because the shopkeeper tells police that the three kids paid with a one-pound note. Okay. What's so special about that?

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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The Australian Red Cross is on the front lines of disaster relief, and we encourage everyone to donate and support their efforts like we are doing. You can find a link on our website or you can go to redcross.org.au. Now, today's story is one of those cases that never really lets go of a country's national imagination, kind of like JonBenet Ramsey for us here in the U.S.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Well, a one-pound note was a lot of money back in 66, especially for young kids to have. But not only that, police knew from Nancy that she only gave Jane eight shillings and six pence to cover their lunches and bus fare. All of that was in coins.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Plus, remember how this man said that their money had just been stolen? Like, police have to consider... What if that was a lie? What if he stole Jane's money and then gave her this money?

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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So possibly to earn their confidence? Like this is a widely used tactic for manipulators, like getting a victim to rely on you for something or making them feel like you helped them and that maybe they owe you or it puts them at ease. Right.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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Learning about the sighting of this man and even the last sighting without him, but this one pound note, is making police more sure than ever that the children have been kidnapped. And likely, the three kids went away with this man willingly, unknowing of his true intentions.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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So once they have this sketch from that woman, this goes out to all of the newspapers all over Australia while police in Adelaide search for their records of sex offenders in the area to see if maybe any of them match witness descriptions. But here's the thing. Of all of the sex offenders in the area, and listen, there's always more than you expect.

Crime Junkie

UPDATE: Beaumont Children

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I would encourage people to just take a look at their own neighborhood. I think you would be surprised how But of all of the sex offenders listed in the area, they don't come up with anyone that's a good match or makes for a good lead. Now, in the meantime, while all of this is going on, the searches are still going on as well.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

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But police are sure that this is a homicide case, especially once the blood sample taken from Eric's mattress is determined to be Leslie's blood.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1027.759

Now, based on the evidence that they gather, police seek warrants for Eric's arrest on one count of open murder and destroying and concealing evidence, and for Jose on charges of destroying and concealing evidence, along with harboring, concealing, or aiding a felony offender.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1044.684

Now, they release Eric and Jose's photos to the public, officially naming Eric as their main suspect in the case, along with a license plate number for his truck. And that is when police get a tip from California. They learn that after dumping Leslie's body, Eric and Jose drove to California and spent the night with relatives.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1064.651

Now, there's conflicting reports on what exactly happened next, because one place I found says that Eric left his truck with a cousin who then drove him and Jose across the border. Another place says that Eric's relatives refused to help him. But either way, it seems like Eric and Jose cross the border and make it into Mexico.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1083.169

But they do leave the truck behind because that's actually found at the border. So while police work to hunt their fugitives down in another country now, they still work stateside to kind of build their case against Eric and Jose for when they get them back. And by now, they've gotten access to Eric's cell phone records and they see this thing that ends up being really important.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1104.346

They see that he called someone from the Valley of the Fire area on the morning of the 29th. So police go question that person, who is a friend of Eric's, and what he shares with them is straight up full body chills. This friend got a call from Eric at around 8 a.m. that morning, and Eric was straight up frantic. He's telling him he needed help right away.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1127.768

This friend was like, OK, well, like, I mean, what do you need, man? And Eric's like, do you remember that favor I asked you to do?

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1137.715

So that's the thing. This favor wasn't like a direct ask. And this was like weeks before Leslie died. But the friend did remember. And so I guess what happened was that Eric and his brother had run into this guy on his lunch break and they sat down at his table and Eric was drunk, like pretty gone.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1156.028

And to be fair, I don't know exactly what time of day this was, like a lunch break might not necessarily be at noon, whatever. But either way, Eric and his friend are talking and he asked this friend if he would do him a favor if he ever needed it. And the friend's like, OK, yeah, sure, like whatever. And then they move on. That's it? That's it. So, again, it didn't seem ominous then, whatever.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

116.084

And that's just how they like it, because Leslie is the heart, soul, and backbone of the house, the one who makes sure everyone is fed and safe. But on August 28, 2020, Leslie needed a night out. According to an episode of In Pursuit with John Walsh about the case, her mom tells her she shouldn't leave the house that night. It's already too late by the time she's even asking.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1175.824

But fast forward to this morning on the 29th, and Eric is trying to call in that favor, like, out of nowhere. And this friend asked him, okay, like, well, then what do you need, man? And Eric's like, I need you to bring me gas. And the friend's like, OK, why do you need someone to bring you gas? Like, just go find a gas station. Right. But Eric starts getting really cagey.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1194.945

He's like avoiding the question. So his friend asked him a few more times, like, why do you need me to go do this? And finally, Eric said, I don't want to be seen on camera getting the gas, which is like all the red flags. Yeah.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1209.196

So this friend asked Eric where he was. He's like asking this a few times. And Eric admitted that he's in Utah. And then the friend asked him one more time, okay, like, but why are you needing the gas? And then Eric just went straight cold and said, I killed a bitch. And what struck this friend wasn't even what he said, the confession of it all. It was just how calm Eric was when he said it.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1235.525

And for that reason, the friend honestly at first didn't believe him. But Eric was dead serious and he said it again. And this time he added that the body was in the backseat of his truck. And at this point, the friend wasn't sure what to believe, but he was freaked out enough to tell Eric that he wasn't going to help him out and he needed to basically get off the phone.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1256.078

But Eric wouldn't stop asking him to come. So this friend asked him point blank, like, if this is true, why are you even like telling me? Why are you risking telling anyone that this happened? And Eric said there is no risk because he had a burner phone. But this friend was like, listen, you messed up by telling me all of this. And that is when Eric finally hung up on him.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1279.793

Yeah, it seems like it. I don't know why. I'm going to assume it's because he was afraid of being implicated somehow, or I don't know if he really didn't believe him.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1307.752

I know, I know. But, I mean, at this point, with Eric and Jose still in Mexico, this is all speculation. So using this information, police work with federal and international partners to bring Eric and Jose to justice abroad. And almost five months after Leslie's death, police get an unexpected call.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1330.179

Clark County investigators find out that on January 19th, 2021, Jose turned himself in to border protection officials. So he gets extradited back to Clark County. And when he's back in Vegas in an interrogation room, he gives authorities a truly unbelievable version of events. Basically, he says that on August 29th, Eric came home and he was acting pretty weird.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1356.67

So Jose decided out of the blue that they should just take this father-son trip to Mexico because his son's acting weird.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1365.558

Oh, no. He's telling them they just went on a spur of the moment little trip together. Because, listen, he doesn't know about all of the footage that police have. So they let him just, like, tell this lie. And they're like, OK, like, is that your final answer? Cool. Now, here, take a look real quick at what we have.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

137.361

It's like inching up on midnight. And every parent knows nothing good happens after midnight. But every parent also knows that the kids they make those rules for think that they know better. So Leslie decides that she's going to go out anyways.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1384.395

And when he sees that they have video of him helping Eric drag Leslie's body out of the house, that's when he lets up. And he then starts telling another story. He says that he was up early that morning in the garage getting ready to take his wife to church when he hears Eric pull up to the house, get out of the car with someone else. Of course, we know that someone else is Leslie.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1407.191

Now, he says he hears them go upstairs and he just kept working or doing whatever he's doing in the garage. And then about 30 minutes later, he says Eric comes downstairs shirtless, dragging Leslie's body down on sheets behind him. He's freaking out, Eric is, saying that he had to do something with the body, but he refused to tell Jose what happened.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1427.607

So Jose decided that they needed to get Leslie's body out of the house before the rest of the family woke up so that they wouldn't be implicated.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1439.698

Well, according to Leslie's family, that's what it looked like to them. But Jose insisted that they weren't destroying evidence. And he even tried to say that the reason he hosed down the driveway, which they have video of him doing, was because after helping Eric put Leslie's body in the trunk, he was like, oh, I remember about this HOA letter I got about our yard needing to be cleaned.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1459.669

So he's like, perfect time to do it since I've got nothing else to do, which is like, roll your eyes.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1482.239

That's a great question because they had lots of quality father-son time on that run or that little trip they talk about, right? But apparently, or at least according to Jose, Eric refused to give him any details. All he hinted at was that Leslie was drinking a lot that night and she possibly overdosed.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1504.056

He says that when he saw Leslie lying on the bed sheet, he didn't notice any injuries on her body or even any blood or anything suspicious on the sheets. But he does say that she was only dressed in a shirt and her underwear were pulled on awkwardly.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

152.055

She's been DMing with one of her longtime friends, Eric, and around midnight, she leaves with him to go up to like, you know, hit up some of the nightlife in town. And while most places would be starting to close down in like a couple of hours, they don't live in most places. They live in Las Vegas.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1530.071

So yes and yes. So to answer the first question, toxicology tests were delayed because of the COVID backlog. And if they were ever completed, I actually haven't seen the results reported on. In this kind of cases we work, this is like one of the newer ones. I just saw a comment from the coroner's office saying that there aren't any tests still being

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1547.085

So I don't know whether or not they've ruled anything in, out, whatever. So the other thing, so Jose says Eric left without telling him when he would be back. He just said that he was going to, quote, destroy the body. So Jose went to his daughter's apartment and Eric showed up there that afternoon acting weird. than even when he left, if that's possible.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1568.229

He was like making threats about taking his own life or killing Jose. Then he was rambling about people who were going to kill him and then the rest of their family. And when Jose heard this, he decided that it's going to be best for everyone if he got Eric out of the house, away from the family.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1585.239

And so that's when he says he decided to gather all the money he could from the house, drove Eric to California and then into Mexico.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1596.666

Well, Jose claims that they got into Mexico by bus. But then when Mexican federal agents boarded the bus to, like, run checks, they both panicked and split up. So his story is that he hasn't seen Eric since. Liar. Yeah. And apparently he's like, I have no idea where he's at now. So, like, I'm turning myself in, but, like, haven't seen my son pretty much since we left.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1618.203

So police are still looking for Eric when a grand jury indicts him and Jose in February of 2021. A judge issues an arrest warrant for Eric and they set Jose's bail at $100,000. By June, Eric is still in the wind and Jose pleads guilty to destruction of evidence and accessory to murder. He says he takes responsibility for what he did and he apologizes for his actions.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1643.328

And Jose does end up getting the maximum sentence of two years in prison, which is a little bit insane. But if that makes you mad, do you want me to get your blood like fully boiling?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1656.837

He got released after only eight months. What? Even though there is no early release stipulation in his sentence. I guess he got credit for some programs he did in prison and like just got out early.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1677.15

For a long time. I mean, like between 10 and 15 years that their families knew each other. So to your point too, right? Like your son comes down with a body and it's like another girl you know. You know her family.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1690.538

I mean, she's 22. And if it was an accident, why are you covering this up? Like call the police like you said. It is unbelievable. Now, after Jose was sentenced, the DA's office called on lawmakers to escalate these kinds of crimes from misdemeanors to felonies because it's a misdemeanor.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

170.749

Now, all of this makes Leslie's older sister, Corelli, nervous. She is actually out of the house, but she's been in contact with Leslie the whole night, and she's not feeling great about Leslie going out alone with Eric. But based on an article by Kathleen Newberg for the Las Vegas Review-Journal,

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1708.337

But it's too late for Leslie and her family who feel like justice hasn't been done for her, especially because at this point, when Jose's going through all this, like Eric is still free. By November 2023, he's still at large. And police end up posting him as the focus of a Fugitive Friday social media campaign that they do.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1727.832

But weirdly, and I don't know exactly why this is, the flyer says that he's wanted for a probation violation and it doesn't mention murder at all. So I don't know if, like, they didn't want to scare people. I don't know if they thought people would turn him in more easily. If it was a probation violation, I don't know. I don't know.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1745.18

It also says that Eric was last seen in Durango, Mexico, but I don't know how they know that. There's no like specific date for that sighting either, but clearly they're like getting some kind of insight or tips or whatever. So 2024 rolls in. This year that we're recording this, January, February, March, the summer starts to pass.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1766.707

And then on July 30th, 2024, police announce that Eric's arrested in Mexico after years of working with federal and international agencies to track him down. And right now, Eric is in custody while the extradition process plays out. Like, as we speak. How long will that take? It's based on the U.S. 's treaty with Mexico, and it can be a pretty complicated process. Like, the U.S.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1793.986

has to put in a request through its diplomatic channels, and then the Mexican foreign ministry has to review the case and the evidence to make a decision. And it can take anywhere from a few months to quite literally years. But I mean, what I know is the U.S. and Mexico do have a good working relationship on this.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1810.195

Like a few hundred criminals have been extradited from Mexico in the last decade or so. But there's a little bit of a wrinkle to all of this. So to extradite someone to the U.S. from Mexico, the U.S. has to agree not to seek the death penalty or even a life sentence because those punishments are unconstitutional in Mexico where he is.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1833.644

Yeah. Yeah.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1841.369

I don't know. Like, to what you said earlier, there's, like, something about this that does feel planned, right? The burner phone, the asking for this favor, like, having someone you can call. Like, was it always about Leslie? Would he have done this to someone else? Did he do this to someone else? Yeah. Did he already know how to do this? Right. Ugh.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1862.262

I mean, this case is such a strong reminder of our crime junkie rules like you never really know anyone ever. And you should always trust your gut because Corelli remembers that there was always something off to her about the way Eric acted with her sister Leslie. Like he was obsessed with her.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

187.657

Leslie is more of the rule follower of the two, always making sure to text their parents while she's out. So what happens is Leslie agrees to text Corelli throughout the night to let her know where she is, what she's doing, just so someone in the family, like, knows she's okay and has tabs on her. Like, this is like a little bit of a crime junkie thing, right? Right. Sister pact is made.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1881.141

But of course, just because someone acts a little strange, that doesn't mean you'd believe they were capable of murder, especially when you have a close relationship with them and like their whole family. And Leslie not only trusted Eric, she trusted his family who were in the house the morning Eric did something or whenever whatever happened happened.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1899.972

But that whole family betrayed that trust, especially Jose. In Nevada, a person directly related to an offender like a parent can't be charged as an accessory to the crime, even though Jose got the maximum sentence the state allows. Leslie's case is inspiring lawmakers to actually take a second look at those existing laws, which is at least like one bright spot that's coming out of this.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1923.303

The prosecutor's office is going to still have to take this to trial if and when Eric does return to the U.S. And I'm sure they are still trying to build as strong of a case as possible. So if you or someone you know has information about Leslie Palacios' case, please contact the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department Homicide at 702-828-3521.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

1944.375

Or if you want to remain anonymous, you can call Crime Stoppers at 702-385-5555. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

208.081

And so far, Leslie's keeping up with her end of the bargain. Corelli stays up late texting with her sister. She even sees Leslie post some photos from the bars that she's at with Eric on Instagram throughout the course of the night. And she knows Leslie's drinking. I mean, she's told her as much. But she isn't worried about her even getting home because Leslie says that Eric is sober.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

228.937

So Leslie keeps her sister posted as they hopped from bar to bar, nothing to write home about or cause concern in any of the messages. But then, at 4.40 in the morning, now it's the 29th, Leslie sends this slightly ominous text message. She tells her sister that she has something she needs to tell her. But she doesn't say what. I know. Corelli texts her back just a minute later to probe.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

254.638

And right away, that little text bubble comes up, like Leslie is typing back. And then the dots just disappear. So Corelli tries calling her sister, goes straight to voicemail, and she's thinking like, OK, her phone must have just died. She's been out all night. She's been using her phone, texting, whatever. She's going to text me and tell me what happened in the morning. And so she falls asleep.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

275.954

But she doesn't get a good night's rest because just a few hours later, she finally does hear from someone. But it's not her sister, Leslie. It's her mom asking, where is your sister? Now, Corelli's mind goes right to that last text message that she got. I have something to tell you. There still aren't any more messages from Leslie.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

296.535

And when she tries to call Leslie again, her phone is still going straight to voicemail. Now, hours later. So Corelli rushes home and admits to her mom that Leslie did go out that night. She knew about it. But before they jump to any kind of worst case scenarios, one of the first things Corelli does is try to get in touch with Eric's sister to see if Leslie's at their house.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

322.364

Right. No. So like I said, they knew each other, but their families have actually known each other for years from church. And Eric still lives at his home with his parents and siblings, too, just down the street from Leslie and her family. So Coralie's probably thinking, OK, Leslie stayed over there with them. She was probably drinking. She probably fell asleep, overslept, whatever.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

341.48

She feels safe with that family. But when she calls, Eric's sister doesn't answer to ease her worries. So by around 10 a.m., Corelli and her mom decide to just drive over to their house to see what's going on. And at first, they knock on the door. No one answers, which is odd because Eric has this big family. Someone surely has to be home.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

362.858

But they decide to just leave and come back an hour later at around 11. And this time, when they pull up to Eric's driveway, they see something stranger than they ever expected. Eric's mom and sisters are, like, moving furniture and cleaning supplies out of the house as they roll up. Uh, no. I know. And listen, Leslie's family still doesn't jump to any terrible conclusions.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

406.696

Yeah.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

428.266

Now, Corelli immediately starts searching. She's calling hospitals. She's trying to reach anyone she can who might know where Leslie is, you know, friends of hers, people who might have run into her, but she gets nothing. And so she keeps trying to call Eric, too. But it sounds like his phone is going to voicemail or turned off or she knows that somehow, like she's not getting through to him.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

446.784

No ringing, nothing. Corelli even tries to track down Leslie's phone using Find My iPhone, but it doesn't even show up anywhere. So now she is really worried and she calls the police to report Leslie missing. They tell her to wait, see if Leslie comes back later in the day. Corelli hopes that they're right and Leslie's going to walk through the door any minute.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

467.498

But day turns to night and there is still no sign of Leslie. So the next morning, August 30th, she reports Leslie missing again. And this time, police do take the report, but they're still not convinced that she's in danger. Knowing both Eric and Leslie are nowhere to be found, they assume that the two ran away together.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

489.165

Even though Leslie's family insists that she wouldn't have gone anywhere without telling them. I mean, she was texting her sister the entire night, for God's sake. And by the way, Eric and Leslie weren't dating or anything. Like, Corelli could always tell that Eric had a thing for Leslie, but she didn't feel the same way about him. Like, they were just friends. So...

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

506.198

She's like, Leslie's not taking off in his truck and leaving her family for some guy she's not in love with, you know, like head over heels in love with. Right. And where is Eric's truck now? Well, police need to figure that out. So they put in a request that day for Leslie's cell phone records to try and kind of retrace her steps, hopefully find her safe.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

525.263

But then on August 31st, police get another call, one that really puzzles them because it's from Eric's mom. And she's calling to report Eric and his dad, Jose, missing. She tells police that Eric came home sometime between 8 and 9 a.m. on August 29th after going out with Leslie and that he was really on edge. And by the afternoon, whatever was bothering Eric was like eating away at him.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

553.607

And he told his mom he just wanted to leave the house. And he did. Walked right out of the door. His dad went after him. And that was the last, apparently, they saw of both Eric and Jose. So now police are wondering if three people, Leslie, Eric, and Jose, went missing together. Could they all be in danger? And if Eric was at home by morning, then where is Leslie?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

56.738

Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

578.979

Police released Leslie's photo and description to the public, saying that they've ruled out a kidnapping, but they add that Leslie might be in distress or need some kind of medical assistance. And even though her phone is still off and they can't use her cell phone location to figure out where she is, they can at least pull up some historical data and track that path.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

597.868

Like I said, the one she took the night she went missing, starting from when she left her house. And so using that, they're able to pin down all of the places that she and Eric went to, which allows them to go then collect footage from each place and actually like see her there.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

60.921

And the story I have for you today is about how a young woman's night out with a trusted family friend turned into a nightmare, leaving her family still searching for answers nearly four years later as the gears of justice finally start to turn. This is the story of Leslie Palacio. Even though Leslie Palacio is 22, she lives at home with her parents and four sisters.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

613.18

And from that, they can see that Leslie and Eric started the night at a casino. They pull up in Eric's white Ford F-150 truck, and at 1.50 a.m., they leave the casino in the same white truck.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

624.804

The two then go to a bar at 2.15, and I can't find any sources that tell us when they left that bar, but police do find footage of Leslie and Eric arriving at a third and final place at around 4.30 in the morning.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

641.65

And even though she never responded to Corelli's text, footage does show Leslie leaving the bar with Eric at around 550 a.m. So as ominous as those disappearing dots were, police know that nothing happened to her then. Maybe her phone really did just die because she's leaving at 550. And now police need to know whether or not she went back to Eric's house with him that morning or what.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

665.524

I mean, it's less than 15 minutes away from the last bar that he and Leslie went to. So what detectives do is they go canvas his neighborhood, asking whether anyone has cameras that point to the Ibarra house. And sure enough, someone does. So police look at that footage and they see Eric's truck pulling up just after 6 a.m. I mean, this is like fitting completely with the timeline.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

688.261

He gets out of the driver's seat, walks around, helps Leslie out. She's a little uneasy on her feet from the drinks that night. So he's kind of like holding her up, leading her inside. But she is alive. She's like, you know, walking with him. And he leads her into the house and everything on the street is quiet, but not for long.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

710.268

On the neighbor's footage, police see Eric come back out of the house about 30 minutes after he and Leslie went inside. But this time he's not with Leslie. He's with his dad, Jose. And the two of them are dragging something down the driveway, something that is body-shaped and wrapped in bedsheets. And then Leslie is never seen coming out of the house again.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

734.335

So Eric and Jose handled what police believe is Leslie's body like she was a piece of furniture, just straight up like shoving her into the passenger side of his truck. And then once she's in, Eric climbs into the driver's seat. He speeds away while his dad hoses down the driveway.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

754.652

Police still don't know. But they know that they're definitely not missing or in danger. But right now, Leslie is the priority. So if there's even the smallest chance that she might still be alive, they got to find her. They got to get her help like yesterday. So the neighbor's camera footage gives police enough evidence to get a warrant to search the Ibarra house.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

775.406

And inside, their top concern is what they find in Eric's room because the sheets have been completely stripped from his bed. And they notice this small blood stain on Eric's mattress that they swab and then send to the crime lab. So now police release a second report to the public. And this time they say that they do think foul play played some kind of role in Leslie's disappearance.

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MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

799.717

And they also turn the case over to the Las Vegas MPD's homicide unit. And it's at this point that Eric and Jose are no longer missing people. Like they're fugitives on the run. But finding them is like looking for a needle in a haystack. So they pull out all the stocks, like pull on all their resources.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

818.951

And the one that hits is a license plate reader that like pulled on Eric's truck basically like it got flagged or whatever. And so they pull the footage from the reader and they see that Eric went back toward his house at around 10 a.m. on August 29th. Though it doesn't seem like he ever actually went back to his house just like towards that general direction.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

838.336

So there seems to be a little bit of conflicting information between Eric's mom's statement to police and then the actual evidence like camera footage. I don't know. But either way. From there, police start working backwards to track his route.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

851.081

And based on the road that he was driving on, police know that he could only have been coming back from one of two directions, either from the Mount Charleston area or from the Utah-Arizona border. But that's like a freaking huge area for police to search. I mean, hundreds of square miles.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

868.757

But detectives get lucky yet again when one of them finds surveillance video from a gas station about 40 miles north of Las Vegas that shows Eric pulling off the freeway toward the Valley of Fire State Park. Now, on that same video, 20 minutes after, they see Eric's truck driving in the opposite direction, this time with mud on the tires.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

892.161

So they know that Eric went off the road at some point in those 20 minutes.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

903.745

I mean, maybe even less, because I mean, if you assume that he stopped to remove Leslie from the car, you'd have to account for at least a minute or two for him to get out, take her out of the truck. And that's assuming he did nothing to conceal her. You know what I mean? So. Right.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

920.555

Right. So police time this out and they like got their stopwatches out, whatever, accounting for the time that it would take for him to drive off the road, hide the body, get back in the car, drive away. And even then, they're still working with a lot of desert here. And with that narrow timeline, they start a grid search of the area.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

937.723

Every single hour counts in this heat because the longer it takes, the more likely it is that evidence could wither away. And it takes until September 9th. That's when police find Leslie's body hidden in a bush about 2,500 feet off of a dirt road. Eric didn't bury her. So after nearly two weeks of exposure to the intense heat, her body is in a very advanced state of decomposition.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

964.081

I mean, to the point that she's almost mummified when they find her. And they also notice that Leslie's missing the pants that she had on in all of the security footage that they saw. And they end up finding those jeans in a bush a few feet away from where they found her, along with drag marks showing that Eric must have let her heels drag as he was pulling her into the bush.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

985.376

And even though she's still wearing her underwear, like, it's on all wrong. According to a detective's grand jury testimony, her, quote, leg was through the waist hole and then the waist was in a leg hole. Like, so you've got the, you know what I mean?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas

999.452

Yeah. And to me, that seems like evidence that Leslie may have been sexually assaulted, even though an autopsy would struggle to actually find evidence of that because of just how badly decomposed she was. And I mean, because of that, they can't determine a cause of death during her autopsy. So that ends up getting listed as undetermined.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1012.737

They completely empty out the dumpster, try to examine anything that they can still visually see or test. From everything they find, they weren't able to conclusively say that it had actually had anything to do with Karina. But it's something that keeps getting brought up in every single article and every single blog post or Reddit or web sleuths that I read on this.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1033.424

Everyone refers back to that dumpster fire and just said it's really suspicious. But since they couldn't link anything to them, they continue to look at other suspects. And they start with that homeless man that she was dancing and talking to. They find that his name is Juan Polo and they quickly rule him out. He's just a local guy. He had plenty of alibis. People saw him all the time.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1056.458

He wouldn't even have anywhere to take a body and dismember it, even if he wanted to. So they decide that their next best bet is to track down that man and his dog. Superman dog. Yes. Because also you are probably a serial killer if you're walking around in Boston at 3 a.m. with a matching shirt with your dog. I mean, I am all about dogs, but it's a little bit strange, no?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1093.538

Okay, here, my problem is not with the matching Superman shirts. The 3am and the matching shirts. So they actually find this guy because he stands out like a sore thumb. His name is Herb Whitten. And he actually lives in Andover, Massachusetts, which is 32 minutes north of Boston.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

111.336

I encourage you to get involved with your local Crime Stoppers, and if you want more information on Crime Stoppers of Central Indiana, go to crimetips.org. So, Britt, I am super excited because I think I might have found a case that you have never heard about.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1115.392

Right. And whoever overheard them actually overheard them correctly. He was a man who was from like somewhere north. And frequently he would say would like go walk his dog downtown. But it seems super weird to drive 30 minutes at 3 a.m. to walk your dog and like talk to a bunch of really drunk people because that's the only people who are walking the streets at 3 a.m.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1138.752

Well, police end up ruling him out because they say that he got a speeding ticket the same night that she was last seen. So they say this rules him out because he was obviously headed back to Anover. He was in his car. He couldn't have been murdering her.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1156.849

But what I question is if the police also say that she could have been alive for up to 24 hours after she was last seen, that doesn't mean that he had to be killing her right at that time that he was getting a speeding ticket. Did they search his car? I mean, I've never gotten a speeding ticket.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1176.166

I have so many questions, but it's 1996 and there are no answers. Oh, God. So yeah, so they said the police, I'm hoping they know more than me, but they completely ruled him out because of this speeding ticket. Another suspect that pops up is John Zwiz. I'm not really sure why he came up, but people love talking about him. He lived really close to where her body was found.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1198.557

He's just an odd duck that I think had had a couple of run-ins with the law. Nothing super serious. He's in this very dark grunge band. And shortly after her murder, he released a song and people often quote the lyrics when they're talking about him. Part of the song goes, I've got an old man's car. I've got a jazz guitar. I've got a tab at Zanzibar. Tonight, that's where I'll be.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1222.972

And a lot of people refer to this because it came out shortly after she was murdered. And they think it's just a nod to the fact that maybe he was there that night and he had something to do with it. But outside of these lyrics, there's been no other kind of confession and police couldn't link him to it in any way.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1239.824

There's brief talk of a man named Eugene McCollum, who in 2000 killed and decapitated a prostitute and a man from East Boston. A lot of people like to link him to the case just because of his decapitation. Obviously, he's He's OK with murdering people. He's OK with severing bodies. But police again say that he was a suspect for a long time.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1262.558

But after he was caught for these other murders, went to court, was tried and convicted, they said that they're not bringing any other charges and they don't consider him a suspect in the case anymore. And unfortunately, the police didn't feel the need to share with the public why. And that's literally the only information we have on him.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1283.677

There's really random stuff connected to this case as well, which, again, I totally believe is unrelated, but just what are the odds? So in the same building as where the dumpster where her body was found, there's kind of a famous case, this man named Rafi Kokadikian. He was accused of killing his friend in the desert years later.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1306.065

Him and his friend went on a camping trip and they got lost and really dehydrated. And he said that he had killed his friend as like a mercy killing. But after they tested the body, they found that he really wasn't that dehydrated. So there's all this speculation around that. He's actually in prison now for that crime. Totally. I mean, not the same crime at all.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1326.51

But again, just super weird that he was there at the time and then murders his friend later. I mean, it's just one of those things that, again, people bring up.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1334.419

Bizarre coincidence. Right. Well, the case kind of stalls out at this point. They've kind of run out of suspects. There's nowhere to go. They still don't even have a crime scene. And about one year after her murder, Herb Whitman, our dog-loving friend, commits suicide.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1353.481

And there's no record I can find online about any kind of suicide note or reason he left or whether or not he had a history with depression. But a lot of people are saying, okay...

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1367.805

Right. It's total admission of guilt. He couldn't live with what he did and he just had to do that. But police still say no go. They wouldn't look into it any further. They said he was just a disturbed man. He was never a suspect. And the case goes back to being cold. They try and bring in the FBI agents.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1386.121

And the FBI do their thing and try and create a profile of someone who would do a crime like this. But the problem is it's 1996. They have nothing to work with except for eyewitness testimony, which we know is super unreliable. They have no security footage. They have no phone records, no really computer records.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1413.51

If this happened today, I mean, they would have footage probably outside of the bar. They would have all the text messages between her and her friends, not only the day of, but leading up to the event.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1429.139

Right.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1430.48

But they're really not able to track down anything.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1440.666

Right. Again, briefly, it gets mentioned, like, in a couple of news stories where the reporter's like, and the police say that they looked into the officer she was dating and he's totally cleared.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1453.09

Right. But they don't give any kind of alibi or anything like that, which, again, they haven't done with a ton of people. They gave Herb Whitman's alibi, which makes me think he was a very serious suspect.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1464.033

But what I try and remember, this is Boston in 1996. Right. They were notoriously corrupt then. Hot mess. Hot mess. Right. So nothing was below them. They had no problem. Like if they thought someone did it, just confirming their suspicions and building evidence around that they had no problem protecting their own.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1484.224

So while this guy was literally immediately ruled out, there's not a whole lot of faith that I have in that. The case is really dead at this point. I mean, I've laid out all the suspects for you. There's nobody at this point who has come forward with any new information. They still, to this day, have no idea where the crime scene was. But the strangest thing.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1510.509

So her employer, remember that was Frank and Susan. Susan's a painter. And I found her website. No. Yes, no.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1523.877

Kind of. So maybe. No, I don't know. So the website is SusanNichter, S-U-S-A-N-N-I-C-H-T-E-R.com. And she has like a gallery of all of her paintings. And she has a couple that are just super disturbing. There is one in the Never Been Seen exhibit where it's called Carried Across. And it's this blue painting of what looks like a man holding the body of a naked woman kind of upside down.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1556.707

And she looks unconscious or dead. He looks just totally shocked and surprised. And then in the shadows, there looks to be like another person, I assume a woman, but it could be a man, who's like caressing the man's head, like telling him it's going to be okay.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1597.58

There is another one under current events. And it's the second picture. It's called Messenger, which is also really strange. So, yeah, it's it's a girl who actually looks a lot like. So the other one was all in blue. This one is in full color. And it's a girl who looks a lot like Karina. She has blonde hair. She's in a blue dress. And it looks like she is pushing away a man with wings.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

160.19

It never happens. Tell me, have you heard about the murder of Karina Homer?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1622.922

And I have never seen a picture of Frank Rapp. I couldn't find one. I have no idea if this is what he looks like. But it's a man with like very small spectacle glasses and an orange hat who appears to be running towards her and she's pushing him away. And he's got something in his hands. But can you tell what that is, Brittany?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1650.948

Other than it just looks like a girl who looks like Karina pushing away a man because he's coming at her unwontedly. Again, I all of this is crazy speculation. There's a lot of her paintings. If you guys want to go through the site, we'll post a link to her website on ours that are really dark and disturbing and disturbing. You know, you could take this one of two ways.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1672.925

Either she's painting about what she knows and something happened and it's this like deep, dark secret that she's finding a way to express. But also whether or not they had anything to do with it. It happened to her. You know what I mean? It was her family.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1689.617

Right. It was something that was like an experience within her life that I'm sure played heavily into her own experience. And so that might just be something that she continues to replay and try and work out and reason in her own head. But still super creepy.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1707.863

Yeah. So Frank and Susan have just gone on. Obviously, they're living their life. She's still painting. He's a photographer. Mr. Whitman's dead. But everyone's just kind of gone on and forgotten about Karina. And it's a totally cold case. I don't know if anyone's going to ever go back and reinvestigate.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1726.897

I think there's probably a lot that could be done knowing what we know now about how corrupt police were back then. I wonder if a fresh take or a fresh look at the case wouldn't bring about something a little bit new or if they wouldn't want to because maybe there's something that they were covering up. I don't know. But unfortunately, Karina's family is still in Sweden.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1745.989

They still have no answers. And I can't imagine being in another country and having something this horrific happen to your daughter or your sister or your friend. And I'm sure that letter that she sent home just absolutely haunts them. And no one ever figured out what was so terrible that happened to her.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1791.894

Yeah. And I have to think that most of the time when cold cases are solved, a lot of it has to do with the family pushing and not letting go and being relentless. And that's so hard for her family to do. Not only being far away, but not really understanding our customs or understanding how it works. And I'm sure they're not wanting to make enemies, but also not wanting them to give up. So.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

181.604

Sorry, guys. Well, let me give you a little bit of junkie medicine because I'm going to tell you this brand new story. All right. So Karina Homer was 19 in the year 1995. And this girl is actually from Sweden. She won the lottery there, which gave her about fifteen hundred dollars. This girl is young. She's beautiful. She's energetic.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1812.92

I don't even know if there's, you know, there very well could be some DNA in the case that we just don't know about. So I wonder if they've ever gone back and look and tried to retest. But I have a feeling there wouldn't be knowing that she was completely cleaned before her torso was dumped.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1855.694

Thank you guys for listening to another episode of Crime Junkie. If you want to interact with us on social media, you can do that Twitter at Crime Junkie Pod or Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

1872.16

We'll see you guys next week. Crime Junkie is an Audiochuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

203.289

And she decides that she wants to take this money and start a new life. Try living life in America. She gets a job in the US as an au pair for a couple in Dover, Massachusetts. This is like the first part where this story gets a little bit questionable.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

220.038

So part of the reason I had never heard about it and you had never heard about it is there's not a lot on this case, even though I read that it's one of the most famous Boston cases ever. There is little to no information on this. So when I'm looking up how she got this job, I found some really fishy articles, basically from the U.S.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

239.471

government saying, you know, we run these agencies that bring au pairs over. They're registered through us. They come in the United States through us. They're working on a visa for au pairs. But she wasn't registered with any of these organizations, none of the normal ones that all of her other au pair friends were.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

255.902

So I have no idea how she would have even found out about this job or got connected with this job. The only thing I can maybe assume is that she had friends over here that knew of a family, but she really went about this an odd way. And I don't know if that was just happenstance or if there was some reason she wasn't going through like the proper channels.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

277.608

Well, she works for a family of Frank Rapp and Susan Nichter. Now, they're married and they have kids, but they both have really prominent careers, which is why they have different names. Frank is a commercial photographer and Susan is a prominent painter. So like very upper middle class.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

297.691

She would work the week taking care of the kids and doing housework, helping around. And on the weekends, she would have those off. And her employer, Frank, actually had a loft downtown where he did all of his commercial photography. It's said that she spent a lot of time in that loft on the weekend. She would stay the night there. I don't know if that was just to get out of the house.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

319.346

So she wasn't always like with the kids that you're babysitting. I feel like you would just need a break. Right. But I don't know if she had more of a friendship with her employer or if things crossed a line ever. It also seems kind of weird to me. Like, I understand you want to get away, but to be spending nearly every weekend.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

338.521

I don't know if he was with her or if the agreement was basically he works there on the weekdays and then she goes there on the weekends just to get away from the family. Again, very little information, but we do know that she would go there frequently. Right. The story of hers really starts the summer of 1996.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

354.775

So she had been in America for a few months and she sends a letter home, a couple of letters home actually, telling her family that she's going to be cutting her trip short. She wants to come back to her small town in Sweden. She tells her family the reason is she is really tired of house chores, that she's doing a lot more housework than she originally thought she was going to be doing.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

377.902

She's just kind of over it. It's not what she dreamed it would be. And she's just going to be coming home. Well, there's one letter sent to her friend that tells a little bit different story. She tells her friend that she's cutting her trip short, but because something terrible happened.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

395.494

And she tells her friend she can't tell her what it is, but she'll tell her when she sees her when she gets home. No. Right. So there is crime junkie lesson number two in life. If you ever have a big secret and something terrible happens, don't wait to tell somebody. You will 100 percent die before you get to tell somebody. Just tell anyone. Write it in a letter and like delay mail it.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

420.906

Mail it to yourself. I don't know. But don't wait.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

429.728

i know i know i like as soon as i read that i was like oh no baby girl she sends that letter home and her friend doesn't think anything initially she's like oh you know she's coming home i'm just excited to see her obviously it's nothing that bad she's gonna tell me when she gets home she's not hurt her family hasn't heard anything bad so her friend doesn't alert any kind of you know she doesn't set off any kind of alarms or alert her family

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

44.926

Hi, everyone, and welcome back to Crime Junkie. I am your host, Ashley, as always joined by Britt. Hi, everyone. And this week, I'm super excited. I have a story that I had never even heard about before I started researching. I'm super excited to tell you junkies about it. But first, me and Britt want to tell you a little bit about one of our favorite nonprofits.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

453.905

Karina seems to be living a pretty normal life in Boston. You know, aside from this letter, everyone thought she was pretty happy. She has friends there, actually lots of other au pair friends who are even from Sweden. So she doesn't feel like too much of an outsider. She has a group that she hangs out with on the weekends. She's even dating. She, for a short time, dated a Boston police officer.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

475.069

And then she also dated another man from South Boston in that short time she was there. And from what I can tell, neither relationship was extremely serious, just kind of fleeting. But just to show you that she was comfortable, she was outgoing. And the story really starts for her on Friday, June 21st, 1996. Her and her friends meet up at a downtown loft.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

497.821

And again, this is another question I have that can't really be answered. But all they keep mentioning is this downtown loft that they meet up at. I don't know if this is her employer's loft. Yeah, I was going to ask that. Right. If it's one of her friends lofts. I just know that they all meet up and the plan is for them to get together and then they go down to the bar together.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

517.318

They all go to Zanzibar, which is in downtown Boston. And it was like the hip bar for young people. A lot of foreign people would go there is what I was reading. She was obviously only 20 at the time, but she had a fake ID. She went out that night wearing a mask. I've heard black or gray shirt with very tight, shiny silver pants.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

538.78

So that plays into into account later when we're talking about eyewitnesses seeing her. She wasn't, you know, just wearing all black. I feel like people would remember this girl in super shiny silver pants. But it was 1996. So, I mean, anyone could have been running around in silver pants. The 90s, though. Yes, true, true. So here's what we know for sure happened that night.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

562.156

She goes in with her friends. She's having a great time. They're like staying there, shutting the bar down. And she gets really intoxicated. And we know for sure that sometime between the hours of two and three in the morning, she exits the bar. What we don't know is exactly how she exited the bar or who she exited with because there starts to be some different accounts.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

584.435

One person says that she had actually fallen asleep and then the bouncer kicked her out alone. Another account says that she went outside with an older man. And then a third account says that she just exited the bar by herself doing okay. She wasn't like passed out. But all accounts say she was very intoxicated.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

605.373

At some point, we go back to we do know that she tried to get back in the bar to find her friends, but the bouncer won't let her back in because the bar is officially closed. They've stopped serving. So people who are in there are slowly making their way out, but they're not going to let any new people into the bar. There are a couple more eyewitnesses that see her after she's denied entry.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

626.568

And a lot of these are confirmed by multiple people. So one thing they know for sure that she did is she was seen talking and dancing with a homeless man for a little while. Naturally. Naturally. Then the next sighting that they think is pretty confident in is they see her talking to a man with a really large white dog. And they're both the dog and the man are wearing matching Superman shirts.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

659.233

And someone overhears him saying that he's, you know, from the from the north area. So they give this account of this man from the north with this large white dog in matching Superman shirts. And they get that from a couple of people because obviously someone like that's going to stick out. There's another possible sighting of her talking to four men in a silver car.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

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This episode of Crime Junkie is brought to you by Crime Stoppers of Central Indiana.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

679.01

And the witness says that they were trying to convince her to go to some kind of after party. But it's unknown if she actually got in the car. There's a fourth witness who has a possible sighting of her in a car. But I don't know how seriously to take this one. I only saw it in one place.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

694.2

And additionally, I think what's really distinct about her is the clothing she was wearing and being out in front of that bar. Right. Right. Now, we wouldn't normally put a ton of stock in that. Again, it was just one person. But what we find out later is this 24-hour store is actually really close to where her body was found.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

732.519

So it's possible that she actually did get there, whether she walked or whether she maybe was in the car and someone drove her. But we have this one-off sighting. At this point, all of the sightings stop. And for 30 hours, no one sees her. And to be clear, she at this point is not reported missing. This is all stuff we've pieced together after the fact. She is on her weekend break.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

759.056

So her employers haven't reported her missing. They don't expect to see her on the weekend. And it was Friday night that she went missing. Sunday afternoon, there's a news broadcast that a body of an unidentified blonde woman had been found with a fake ID or they assume a fake ID. And that's when her employers get notified and actually call the police and say, hey, this might be our au pair.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

76.664

No, they don't actually do any of the arresting. All Crime Stoppers does is they're responsible for taking the tip, keeping the tipster anonymous, and then giving that information to police, and police do all the arresting.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

784.13

Now, the way they found this body is insane. So Sunday morning, the very early hours, there is a homeless man who's digging through garbage cans, trying to find cans to turn in, loose food, whatever. And he finds this black garbage bag and he opens the bag and inside is the full torso of a woman. Whoa. Just the torso. Whoa. He obviously immediately calls the cops.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

815.444

The cops find that she had been totally cleaned, even all of her makeup removed. There's no account that I can find. It says that specifically they were keeping it under wraps whether or not she was clothed or nude. There was one blog entry where it talks about her naked torso.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

837.676

But I have a feeling that's just somebody doing their own interpretation because from everything I could say, the police were intentionally keeping that quiet. The body had been strangled and severed at the waist right below the ribs. So really the only thing that the person had to cut through was her spine.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

854.39

And I don't know if this is a show of somebody who has medical knowledge or if it's the person's just mildly smart. You know what I mean? It doesn't take a lot to figure out.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

868.724

Exactly. Exactly. One police report that I read said that she may have been alive for up to 24 hours after she was last seen. And they're assuming she was last seen about 3 a.m. on Friday. So I don't know. Again, I only saw one side of that. I don't know if that means the body hadn't set into rigor mortis. I don't know if that means it was still warm.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

889.089

I don't know if they could just tell by blood flow. That being said, there wasn't a ton of blood. This was a secondary scene. And to this day... They have no idea where she was actually murdered. So her torso was just found in this bag. They searched the rest of the dumpster and they never found her waist or legs. So once the host family called in, police obviously start investigating.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

917.341

I don't really know what to think of the host family calling in. If they again, it was Sunday that this was broadcast, so she wasn't missing. I don't believe from everything I found that they put a picture of her on the news. So I think it's a little bit strange. They're like, oh, a blonde girl in a dumpster must be our Swedish au pair.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

93.092

I don't even know how to follow that up. But yes, Crime Stoppers is only responsible for taking the tips, and their number one goal is making sure that the tipsters remain anonymous. As of early 2018, Crime Stoppers of Central Indiana is responsible for clearing over 7,000 cases because of their tips.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

938.152

Right, right. But again, I don't know all the details. It might not be that fishy, but a little bit strange. Well, police obviously investigate them first. The family immediately shuts down and lawyers up. Now, I don't think that necessarily means someone is guilty. Like, I am all about lawyering up if anything happens ever, even if you have nothing to do with it. This is also Boston in the 90s.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

962.31

But they were very uncooperative. Other nannies had some very unflattering things to say about Frank, that he was just kind of sleazy. They wouldn't confirm or deny whether or not Frank and Karina had any kind of relationship. As they're investigating the family, something super fishy happens. Right behind their condominium, like within 200 feet, at 9.20 p.m.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston

990.105

on Monday evening, this is a day after her body was found, There is a dumpster fire, like up in flames. The whole thing is just burning right behind her employer's home. So police are immediately going and checking it out. Red flags are going up everywhere. They're thinking, OK, is this the second half of her body? Is there something of hers that people are getting rid of?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Dana Ireland

0.595

Hi, Crime Junkies. It is Ashley Flowers here, and I am popping in to share something new with you that actually stemmed from something that is a bit of a throwback. I think all of you know by now that Britt and I are on the road for Crime Junkie Life Rule number 10 tour. It has been a complete blast, a wonderful seeing all of you who've come out to the stops we've made so far.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Dana Ireland

110.583

And because you all are my crime junkies and I know you want to be the first in the know, I am sharing the first episode of this season of Three with you right here, right now. So take a listen and then head over to the podcast Three. You can find it wherever you get your podcasts and you can listen to the second episode that also dropped today.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Dana Ireland

130.947

Again, just search for Three wherever you listen to podcasts.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Dana Ireland

21.059

I can't wait to see more of you soon. But this thing today, what I'm about to tell you, this actually stemmed from our very first tour in 2019. The case we told then was wild, filled with twists and turns. But you guys know me, and when I get in, like I get into all the craziest rabbit holes, like even over the smallest details.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Dana Ireland

42.905

Well, in the case from our first tour, there was a suspect who had Googled this term that had nothing to do with the case we talked about. This suspect had Googled Dana Ireland autopsy photos. Now, I had never heard of Dana Ireland. And like I said, it had nothing to do with the case we were talking about. Why is he Googling this? So I kept digging and digging. I just had to know more.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Dana Ireland

67.994

And thus, the years-long journey of exploring Dana Ireland and her case began. This case is one that has so many layers and you can dive into all of the details on our latest season of the podcast, Three. This season is hosted by someone I'm sure you crime junkies already know, Amanda Knox.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Dana Ireland

89.964

She's going to walk you through the case, through how three men were convicted of Dana's murder, and through the many costs that she knows firsthand come when the justice system gets it wrong. And as our team was on the ground reporting in Hawaii where this case took place, an update came that changed everything.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1000.931

It is front page news all over New York City because it had all the hallmarks of a case that they knew the public would eat up. Young, wealthy, privileged, good-looking kids caught up in drugs and sex and now murder. And the thing that the media latches onto the most was the good-looking part. Over and over again, you'd see them talk about how handsome Robert was.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1023.018

What does his appearance have to do with any of this? Nothing. But the media makes this a huge part of the narrative. And I can't tell you how many voiceovers I heard from news reporters that kept going on and on about it. And it only gets worse when Robert's mom Phyllis gets him one of the most famous criminal lawyers in New York at the time. It was an attorney named Jack Lipman.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1045.486

And Jack takes zealous advocacy to a whole new level. Like hardcore crime junkies are probably familiar with legal ethics. And you'll know that part of a lawyer's responsibility to their client is to promote their client's position, whatever that may be. And they're supposed to do everything they can within the law's boundaries to get the result that they want. And this is exactly what Jack does.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1068.803

Right away, Jack sees the media bonanza around Robert, and he sees an opportunity to spin a whole new narrative about what happened the night Jennifer died. He starts a strategic and prolonged public relations campaign to paint Jennifer Levin as a promiscuous sexual deviant and basically paint Robert Chambers as the real victim here.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1090.669

According to Jack's narrative, Robert is this classic all-American success story. Like, he's not from a rich family, but he's working hard to get into society's upper echelons. His mom, Phyllis, is this Irish immigrant who works long hours as a private nurse for New York's most wealthy families so she could send him to, like, the best private schools.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1110.525

He tells the public, you know, he's an altar boy growing up. He's a devout Catholic. He's on sports teams at school. He's handsome. Look how handsome he is. And he'd never force himself on anyone. And it's only natural for girls to be attracted to him. And I mean, so much is saying basically like girls already throw themselves at him. Why would he like need to force any girl to do anything?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1129.4

And he just keeps reiterating like he's a good boy. She was a bad girl. And Jack tells everyone if Jennifer hadn't wanted rough sex, then she'd still be alive. And this tragic accident never would have happened. That is the story that he's pushing out to the public. And the phrase rough sex becomes a huge part of this case.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1150.535

And it portrays Jennifer as the aggressor in this scenario instead of the murder victim that she is. And this phrase is everywhere, all over the headlines in huge letters. And Jack Litman runs with it. It's actually appalling. Like Jennifer's family is devastated. Her friends are devastated. It's basically heaping trauma on top of trauma.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1172.128

It kind of sounds like they're saying she was asking for it. Oh, Robert's defense team is doing everything but putting it in those exact words. Like their strategy feeds into the sexism and misogynistic double standards of the time. But it's controversial, too, because a lot of people are just totally disgusted by it. Like feminist groups end up getting involved. Activists start protesting.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1194.326

And it really does split public opinion about Jennifer and about Robert. So while all of this is going on, the police and the new assistant district attorney on the case, Linda Farstein, are trying to come up with a strategy to counterattack Jack's version of Robert.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1211.575

Now, ironically, it's Robert himself who gives them their best weapon against him because on the night that he was arrested, he brought his phone book to the police station with him. And police have all these names and addresses of people he hung out with, friends, associates, all carefully documented in his file of facts.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1231.267

Linda and the police start making calls and going through every single number in Robert's book. And it's not much of a shock that most of his friends get kind of defensive or they don't want to talk. Like, none of them want to believe that Robert was capable of murder. Like, they just kept saying, oh, you know, it's an accident or Robert would never do that. He must have had a bad moment.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1250.04

Like, excuses, excuses galore. But the calls aren't totally hopeless, though. And little by little, a different picture of Robert emerges. It turns out that Robert had a reputation among the prep school circles because things had a funny habit of going missing when he would be at house parties. Things like fur coats and expensive jewelry would just disappear.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1273.819

Anything valuable that was easy to grab. Robert Chambers was well known for being a thief, but no one had ever confronted him about it because, as Jessica says, like, it was the glorious 80s and no one wanted to be responsible, was her quote. Oh.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1293.983

Well, it's because Robert had a cocaine habit, a big one, and it went all the way back to middle school when it started. Linda and the police learned that Robert's been in and out of rehab for years, but it didn't stick, and his addiction continued. And since he needed money to pay for drugs, he turned to stealing.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1315.114

He also stole credit cards from girls that he spent time with, even using one to spend over $3,000 with a friend one weekend in early 86. Now, all of the times this happened, like again, people knew he was stealing, but the police were never called and Robert was never held accountable. He went to rehab again, skipped out early, and by August, he was back in New York and back at Dorian's.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1339.463

So by September of 1986, Robert's been in jail since his arrest, waiting for his bail hearing. Jack is still pushing hard on this whole he's a good kid from a good family with no record kind of angle. And Linda and the lead detective, Mike, go the total opposite. They know Robert's not the choir boy that Jack wants everyone to think he is.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1359.697

And they're convinced that they'll be able to keep him in jail until the case goes to trial. But Jack has a secret weapon. At Robert's bail hearing, Jack pulls out a letter. Now, this isn't totally uncommon. A lot of times suspects will get character references from people to say like, oh, yeah, they're actually super great. They're not a flight risk. Like, I know them.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1384.745

They have ties to the community, things like that. But this isn't a letter from an old teacher or a coach. This letter is from Theodore McCarrick, the Archbishop of Newark. He is a big-time player in the Catholic Church, and he's on track to becoming a cardinal. And he holds a lot of weight in the New York City politics scene.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1406.299

This guy has so much power that even just the name McCarrick instantly puts people, including the judge, on high alert. And Linda is stunned. Of all of the people Jack could have gotten to write a letter, this one was so big and so far out of left field that no one could have ever predicted it.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

141.345

A woman named Pat Riley is on her bike riding through Central Park on the Upper East Side in Manhattan. As she's riding along near the Metropolitan Museum of Art, something catches her eye. It looks like a young woman who's laying under a tree.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1423.986

She even drives out to Newark to talk to the archbishop and asks him why he would possibly write this letter for a man that he's seemingly not connected to. And McCarrick admits he's like, I don't know anything about the case, but he basically like points to his faith as the reason for getting involved.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1457.953

Not unless they knew the person. And that's what I said. And that's what Linda thought, too. So she and Detective Mike do some digging. And it just so happens that the archbishop is also Robert's godfather. And according to New York Magazine, he sponsored Robert through his confirmation as a teenager.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1480.62

Now, Robert's mom, Phyllis, also nursed a cardinal during his last days and knew the New York archdiocese. So she pulled some strings and got good old Godfather Teddy to throw his political might behind her son. So it looks like there was a little more behind this than just faith. However, the archbishop's letter does the trick.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1502.545

In front of a packed courtroom, the judge sets Robert's bail at $150,000, which is a lot of money at the time. And remember, Robert's family isn't like these Upper East Side people. They're not wealthy, so they don't have the $150,000 to spare or even enough to put up for the bail bond. So Robert's supporters and members of the church rally around him and raise the money themselves.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1526.562

Jack Dorian, the guy who actually owns like Dorian's red-handed bar where Robert was that night Jennifer was killed, even puts up his own penthouse as collateral. They get the money and Robert is released on bail. But instead of going home, he goes to stay at a parish as part of Jack Letman's whole like, look how pious and innocent this kid is thing.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1546.932

As if the letter from McCarrick wasn't enough, Robert being allowed into the parish puts the whole city on high alert that the Catholic Church has chosen a side. As soon as Robert gets out, Jack calls a press conference. Robert reads a statement about how sorry he basically is for this whole tragic accident. Like, he's really piling it all on while still sounding like he did in his confession.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1569.019

Like, he's not even trying to fake empathy at this point. And it's a little hard to watch. And it's even worse for Jennifer's family and her friends because as soon as he's out of jail, Robert wastes no time in getting right back to his normal life.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

157.194

instantly pat knows something is wrong she can tell just by the way the woman's body is positioned it doesn't feel right she's got one leg up one arm up and as she gets closer to the woman she can tell that she isn't moving and all of her jewelry is missing Horrified, Pat hurries to call police, and by 6 o'clock in the morning, the area is swarming with law enforcement.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1582.563

He even goes back to Soho, Jennifer's neighborhood where she lived, strolling around with his Walkman, smirking for the cameras without a care in the world.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1604.295

Well, here's the thing. It goes back to that whole idea of Robert being like handsome and not fitting the mold of a criminal that everyone had in their minds because he almost was caught for a burglary that took place back in 85. So after Robert gets out on bail, Linda gets a call from a detective in another precinct. He's investigating this burglary from 1985.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1624.154

Now, during this burglary, over $70,000 worth of stuff was taken from someone's home. So it's actually a felony at this point, not just a misdemeanor. And wouldn't you know it, at the scene, they found Robert Chambers' ID on the fire escape.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1641.534

now at the time when this initially happened they asked robert about it they tracked him down and robert's like oh you know i must have lost it oops what a funny coincidence a thief must have picked it up and then like dropped it at the crime scene and listen at the time they bought it like oh my god he didn't make sense as their perp they never fingerprinted him and they didn't really look at him anymore after that like it really did seem like a strange coincidence but

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1666.03

But now that he's been arrested for something else, they decide maybe they should run his prints against their scene. And he might have had an excuse for why his ID was there. But what he can't explain, though, is why his latent fingerprints match those in the medicine cabinet at the apartment where all of this took place. And now when Linda has this, she knows this is huge.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1686.674

This isn't Jack Littman's pristine client. This is a well-established criminal. And this is a huge chink in his purity armor. Now they knew for sure that in order to finance his drug addiction, Robert wasn't just stealing from people he knew. He was stealing from total strangers. And what they find out is that he wasn't alone.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1706.787

Robert had an associate, a young African-American man named David, who was already well known to police for raping and trying to murder a student in her dorm room at Columbia University. Oh. Yeah, their M.O. was always the same.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1720.639

Robert being like the white guy who just like fit in in the neighborhoods used his access in his social standing to get into these really exclusive buildings over Park Avenue. And basically he'd walk right past the doorman. He'd go upstairs and he'd basically start trying doors until one of them opened just to see who left their apartment unlocked.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1738.65

Meanwhile, David, who couldn't get past the doorman like Robert could, would stay down on the ground and wait for Robert to toss him whatever he could pick up. Like I said, that's fur coats, it's pills, it's jewelry.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1751.156

Yes, it was. And what was also missing was money from her purse. And so really, I think this was the first time they had some kind of real connection to what the motive might have been. Like maybe he was trying to get money from her. Maybe she caught him. Again, there's still kind of a question mark, but clearly we're starting to see a pattern and there's just like underlying issue that he has.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1773.947

Armed with this new information, Linda and Detective Mike start looking into other unsolved burglaries around the city, trying to see if they can pin any more on Robert. And yeah. They're able to find over 30 provable crimes that Robert's connected to. And while this is happening, Robert gets formally indicted for felony burglary.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1794.196

Now, of course, as soon as this happened, Robert's lawyer, Jack, goes into PR spin mode. And this time he gets Robert on the cover of New York Magazine. And not just a feature article, but like the full cover story. He's immaculate, like very clean cut, very preppy in his like suit and tie, looking like the 1980s American dream, like going for that full John F. Kennedy Jr. vibe.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

181.206

They cordon off a large area all around the body and instantly start to work on figuring out who their victim is and what happened to her. As they survey her body, they see vicious red marks around her neck and bruises on her face that are so bad one of her eyes has been swollen shut.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1819.909

And listen, I read the entire piece, which was published back in November 10th, I think, of 86. It was written by Michael Stone, and it is a puff piece to the nth degree. It is exactly the image the defense wants to portray. Jennifer's best friend Jessica describes it the best, I think. She said, quote, he was portrayed as the white symbol of beauty, power, intelligence, and money, end quote.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1844.96

Meanwhile, during all of the pretrial stuff, Jack's also busy trying to get a hold of Jennifer's diary because they want to use it as proof that, like, oh, hey, remember how we said this girl's, like, a bad person for being sexually active and daring and enjoying sex with men? Like... They want to use it as proof of that.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1862.205

And they finally get their hands on this diary and they tell the press, aha, like we've got proof in her own words that she was like basically sex crazed. But the problem is it's total BS. What they're calling a diary is a freaking date book. And when they give it to the judge to see if it can be admissible in trial, he's like, no, what are you even talking about?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1882.663

There's literally nothing sexual in this thing at all. But I think it was a total play because by this point, it didn't even matter what was in it. It was all a show.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1892.545

And the defense knew that there wasn't anything sexual, but they got enough people talking about it in the press and in the public that all of the headlines started to read sex diary right there alongside rough sex as part of the public narrative about Jennifer Levy. At this point, Robert's defense isn't even pretending that they're not engaged in victim blaming here.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1913.689

And it kind of backfires on them. The people who were already pissed get even more mad and more are inspired to take action.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1921.77

A group called the Guardian Angels gets really involved in protesting and they accuse Jack of basically murdering Jennifer's reputation, which I think is totally fair, especially since one of Robert's other lawyers even says in the documentary, quote, there's nothing illegitimate end quote, about using a victim blaming as a tactic. Like, are you kidding me? Oh, my God, that's awful.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1942.837

Yeah, what a monster. But Jennifer isn't the only one being blamed, though. The night she died, Robert was confronted at Dorian's by a girl named Alex. And this is a different one that Jennifer was supposed to spend the night with.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1955.325

But this Alex basically humiliated him in front of his friends, including Jennifer, and members of their social group turned to her and basically kind of point the finger saying, like, you made Robert snap and it's your fault that Jennifer's dead.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

198.647

Her blouse and her bra are pushed up over her breasts and her skirt has been hiked up to reveal that she isn't wearing any underwear. It's a grim, grim scene, but police react accordingly. They shut down the entrances and exits, not just to the park, but to the entire city, all bridges, all tunnels, everything.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

1984.068

Yeah, they totally are, which is why they kind of had to get creative. And they do. So on the night that she was murdered, Jennifer was wearing a denim jacket. It's really light, kind of acid wash, very 80s. Anyway, so police have this jacket, which happens to have stains on it, stains that look like blood and saliva.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

2004.777

And they want to see if they can get those stains to match Jennifer directly with this revolutionary technique the FBI has called DNA testing. Now, this was well before modern DNA analysis. And this is the very, very beginning of this whole science. And at this point, it hadn't been used yet. But basically, the FBI was super excited about this new science they had and about its potential.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

2030.09

And they kind of wanted to get some media attention as well. So they agreed to work with the prosecution and kind of partner on this. So Detective Mike takes the jacket and drives it personally all the way from New York City to the FBI's labs down in Quantico while Linda gets to work on establishing a motive.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

2047.006

Now, mind you, nowhere in Robert's videotaped confession did he mention anything about why he might have killed Jennifer. And the public wants to know, too. Like, maybe he couldn't perform sexually and was embarrassed. Like, it's totally possible for heavy drug users like Robert because long-term cocaine use can have sexual dysfunction effects.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

2066.384

But then they think, like, maybe money was the motive. Like, a lot of people speculated that maybe she caught him stealing from her purse. Like, if you remember, as soon as they got to the park, he says she went off to use the bathroom. Like, maybe she came back and saw him rifling through her purse, and they had some kind of confrontation. Do they need the motive to go to trial? So you don't.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

2085.281

You can go to trial without a motive, but it's more of an uphill battle. Because like Linda says... it's the thing everybody wants to know. Motive or not, though, the prosecution has to move ahead with the case.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

2098.873

Before trial, the preliminary DNA results come back and they say, yes, the blood and saliva on the jacket are Jennifer's, which originally when I like was like watching this and saw that they were trying to do the testing, I thought for a second that they were trying to like link him to her jacket. But then I. Yeah, that's what I thought you were going to

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

2117.368

No, but then I realized like, duh, he like admits being with her. What they were trying to do was prove that the jacket was the murder weapon, that he like held it over her face to try and kill her.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

2129.138

Now having this DNA and proving that it was hers, proving that it was held to her face is huge for the prosecution because it shows intent and it proves that Jennifer didn't die accidentally like Robert says. But there's a big problem. The judge won't allow it to be admitted into evidence because the DNA science is just too new.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

2150.339

Because it can't be allowed into evidence, they also can't even mention it at trial. And the judge also tells them that they can't mention Jennifer's missing jewelry either. So when you look at what we know, what the public knows, but what the jury won't hear about, that means we have no DNA, no murder weapon, no theft that night. Like there's nothing that we can tell the jury.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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And beyond that, it's really tricky to sit 12 fair and impartial jurors because of the nonstop media attention that this case got. Mm-hmm. But eventually they manage it and the trial starts on January 3rd, 1988, with Robert accused of second-degree murder. Right from the start, the media goes bananas, like more than they already have. We're talking worldwide coverage.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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By the time morning rush hour is over, the woman in the park is positively identified as 18-year-old Jennifer Levin. McGee Hickey, who was a reporter who actually covered this case in the story, said, quote, if something happens in Central Park to a white person in the 1980s, everybody pays attention to it.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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Now, Linda focuses on humanizing Jennifer as much as possible so the jury sees her as this vibrant, living person and not just the dead girl in Central Park. Jack, on the other hand, keeps doing what he's been doing as far as smearing Jennifer's reputation, except now the case isn't just about rough sex gone wrong.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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He also brings the police force into it and says that basically they're an amateur level police force who totally ruined the scene and like botched the investigation. All of this is incredibly difficult for Jennifer's friends and family to watch. Some attend court and some of them take the stand even to tell the jury about the girl that they once knew and loved.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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The woman who found Jennifer's body testifies, the medical examiner testifies, and both sides call expert witnesses who pack in a lot of scientific stuff that's really hard for the average person to understand. And this is done on purpose. Jack does this because he wants not only to confuse the jury... but to also place those little seeds of doubt in their mind.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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Now, another part of Jack's strategy to make Robert look good involves him showing up to court every day with a pretty new girlfriend named Sean. Like, surely no smart, attractive girl like Sean would go out with Robert if he was this vicious killer that prosecutors claim. So he must be harmless, right?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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Linda's just hoping against hope to get him on the stand for cross-examination away from Sean, away from Jack, so she can finally crack his facade and show the world who he really is. But unfortunately for the prosecution, Jack never calls Robert to testify. The jury goes to deliberate without ever hearing from Robert himself. One day goes by without a verdict. Then two, then three, then five.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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No one wants to believe that this case could come back with a hung jury, but it's looking more and more likely. And everyone is starting to get really nervous because the stakes are so high here. And the longer the jury deliberates, the bigger the chance that they're stuck on something.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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They're under a huge amount of pressure to deliver a verdict, and even the jurors themselves start to crack with all this tension. Fights are breaking out in the jury room. One of the jurors even fakes a heart attack to get excused. Like, there's no doubt that Robert killed Jennifer Levin. I mean, he admits it, but he says it's an accident. The jury is stuck on his intent. Did he mean to kill her?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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In the midst of this deliberation, the defense team does something that sends shockwaves through not just New York City, but across the world. On day nine, Robert's defense makes a call to the prosecutor's office. They suggest a plea deal. Instead of second-degree murder, which requires intent, they offer up manslaughter, which doesn't.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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After consulting with the Levin family and delivering the heartbreaking news, Linda accepts.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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Mm-hmm.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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Mm-hmm.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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I know. And truly, that's exactly how Jennifer's friends and family feel. Like, basically, they've been cheated. Jennifer's mom, Ellen, who only agreed to this deal in order to avoid the trauma of a second trial, was horrified by this. Robert is sentenced to just 5 to 15 years in prison. Oh my god. Even if he serves the maximum, is 15 years fair payment for a life?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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And he went on to say that basically back then in the 80s, murder was basically like chalked up to only being related to gangs or crack epidemics, like bad things happened in bad neighborhoods. And obviously, we all know that bad things happen everywhere to everyone, regardless of race or religion or economic status. But this was kind of the attitude back then.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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And everyone agrees, absolutely not.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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For a little while, yeah, the trial's over, the press moves on, until a popular tabloid journalist gets his hands on a videotape that neither the prosecution nor the defense had any idea existed. It was taken while Robert was out on bail back in 87 before the trial when he was supposedly being this like wholesome young man staying at his local parish.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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And in this video, he's surrounded by four girls in their underwear and they're all partying, goofing around. having a grand old time, and at one point, Robert picks up this doll and starts, like, talking in this creepy, high-pitched voice while he pretends to strangle the doll, only stopping to joke about killing it when the doll's head pops off. It is...

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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absolutely disturbing and there's no universe where this is funny especially considering like the circumstances around it and while it does do a lot of damage to the public view of Robert ultimately at this point it doesn't matter because the trial is over and Jennifer isn't coming back Robert winds up serving his entire 15-year sentence because he gets into a lot of trouble in prison.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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He's released in 2003, and within a year, he's arrested again, and this time for drugs. He does 100 days in Rikers Island, and then in 2007, he's arrested for drugs a third time, this time for selling. But he's not alone. He's arrested with a woman named Sean, the same Sean who accompanied him to trial every day and who also appeared in that creepy doll tape.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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Now, this time, Robert is sentenced to 19 years in prison, which is great. Like, this guy deserves to be away forever. But it's a little bit crazy to me that he goes away longer for this drug charges than he ever did for the murder of Jennifer Levin.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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He's currently incarcerated at the Sullivan Maximum Security Correctional Facility in New York State and is scheduled for release in 2024 when he'll be 58 years old. Now, there's still one final twist, though. Brett, you remember Robert's godfather.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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Right. So in 2018, Theodore McCarrick, now Cardinal McCarrick, resigns after being accused of sexually abusing not only adult male seminarians, but also of sexually abusing children, in particular, altar boys. Oh, my God.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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Now, NBC News did a huge story about his resignation and a lot of other outlets covered it because McCarrick is one of the highest ranking church leaders in the United States to be removed in connection with the Catholic Church's ongoing sexual abuse scandal. Now, if you remember, Robert was an altar boy and also was sponsored by McCarrick for his confirmation as a teenager.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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Now, to be clear, there's never been any suggestion that Robert was among one of McCarrick's victims. But I kind of think it's a question that has to be asked. Yeah, definitely. Now, partly because of the media attention and the public fascination with Jennifer Levin's murder, this case has become a staple in pop culture references. People magazine listed a few of them.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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There was a movie back in 1989, a 1990 Law & Order episode, a Sonic Youth song. And even as late as 2004, the killers put out Jenny Was a Friend of Mine. I hate to say that any good came of this whole thing because Jennifer should still be alive. None of this should have ever happened. But her mom, Ellen, turned her grief into action.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

264.815

And this murder was rocking the community and especially Jennifer's close-knit community of friends. They'd never known anyone who'd been hurt like this. Stuff like this, again, didn't happen to people like them. They were young and rich and carefree. And youth often carries with it a sense of invincibility. Bad things happen to other people.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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She became a staunch advocate for victims' rights and got 13 pieces of legislation passed in 10 years to protect victims, including expanding New York's rape shield laws to limit how much of a victim's sexual history can be mentioned. She turned her pain into power and hopefully in the process allowed Jennifer's memory to rest a little easier.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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Thank you so much to the team at AMC for reaching out and asking us to cover this case. Their reporting was immensely helpful. And you guys, the docuseries is legit amazing. For a list of other sources we used for cross-referencing and to supplement this story, you can visit our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.

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INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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And we'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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Death is so far in the distant future and there's no reason to be afraid of it. They were basically all these like private school elite kids of the Upper East Side and they lived in these glass houses of wealth and privilege and access. Now, though Jennifer hung out with this crowd, she wasn't like these other kids in the friend group. She actually grew up in Long Island. She was Jewish.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

305.34

She lived in this downtown Soho apartment area rather than on the Upper East Side where they were. And her friend Peter said, quote, everything that was different about Jennifer is what attracted me to her, end quote. And she's really just like fresh face with her cute little 80s hair and just the sparkle in her eye that is amazing. Jennifer was popular. She had a lot of friends.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

31.158

Hi, crime junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And the story I have for you today is a time capsule. We are going back to New York City in 1986, where one case went from a local homicide to a media firestorm all across America. And though this is far from our first episode, there is a first here. The team over at AMC reached out to us to collaborate on this episode.

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INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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And her best friend in 1986 is a girl named Jessica. They met back in 84 when they were both working at a clothing store and they hit it off right away. Now, while they might have had their differences, they did have one big thing in common. They both like to party and like hard. Alcohol is everywhere in this community and drugs are easy to get. The Plus, everyone's parents are away a lot.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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Like, there's always some nice empty apartment to throw a little weekend rager and then clean up the mess before mom and dad get home.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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Apparently, this was like super common. Like it is a far cry from the uber religious Midwest background you and I grew up in. So it's a little hard for me to wrap my head around it. But I guess like these parents would go on vacation or they'd go out to the Hamptons for the weekend or to a country house somewhere. And they would just leave their kids behind in the city with no supervision.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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And it's just not a big deal to them. But like I said, Jessica didn't grow up like them. This wasn't her norm. Although... She did really embrace this after her parents divorced and she moved in with her dad in Soho. Jessica and Peter and her prep school classmates were kind of her getaway into a new scene. All of it's new and cool and like an adult, right?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

408.701

Like it's very grown up thing to have all this freedom and this whole crowd makes the most of their freedom. Now, as police start learning about this friend group, they also start piecing together where she was and who she was with the day before she was found. What they learn is that on August 25th, Jennifer is out in the Hamptons staying with her friend Peter.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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Now, she's getting ready to leave New York and head to Boston for college. So she's basically like making her round. She wants to make sure that she sees everyone before she goes and says her goodbyes. So once she has a chance to see Peter in the Hamptons and see her friends out there, police find out that Jennifer was going back into the city to spend the night at her friend Alex's house.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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So they go talk to Alex and retrace Jennifer's steps the night that she died. Alex tells police that she and Jennifer went to Dorian's Red Hand Bar. And this is like the place to be. This is the preppy hangout if you're one of the kids in the upper class crew. Everyone knows that it's easy to get served alcohol there.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

465.754

Pretty much all you need to buy a drink is a fake ID and it doesn't even have to be a good fake ID at that. And they might not even ask for an ID at all. And it isn't just like a Dorian's thing. These kids could party almost anywhere. And we're talking like super exclusive nightclubs like Studio 54. where there's like money and beautiful people.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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And again, as I'm watching this, I cannot believe that this is like really happening. But these kids had access to any place and anything. I mean, they're in these clubs, like drinking, smoking marijuana, doing ecstasy, cocaine, pills, you name it.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

518.314

Listen, and you're not wrong. And even some of the people who were in that crew can see that looking back. Like Jennifer's best friend Jessica said, quote, we were having a great time, but we were not okay, end quote. So to go back to police like piecing together her night, Alex gives a bunch of names to the police about who all was at Dorian's that night.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

538.619

And police go talk to those people to get more names and start building a timeline of who was there, at what times, who left early, who stayed late, who left with who. And as they talk to more and more people, one name keeps coming up over and over and over. Robert Chambers. Robert knew Jennifer because he also knew Jennifer's best friend, Jessica.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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And Jessica is actually the one who introduced them back on Valentine's Day 1986 at a mutual friend's, quote, champagne birthday. they party? What is their life? Seriously, if this isn't a sign, again, of how rich these kids are or were and how much they party, I don't know what is. So police go over to Robert's mom's apartment to talk to him and get his story about what happened last night.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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They asked us to watch their upcoming docuseries called The Preppy Murder, Death in Central Park. and use it as our source material to tell you guys about this case. So if you get as enthralled in this story as I did, you can watch the five-part series on AMC and Sundance Channel over three consecutive nights starting Wednesday, November 13th at 9 p.m. Eastern.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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As soon as he comes to the door, they see that he has scratches on his face, like fresh, deep scratches. And He also has a weird hand injury, which the lead detective recognizes as being common among boxers who like hit wrong. Now, initially, Robert's like super polite, super cooperative, and he even volunteers to go to the police station so that they can talk there at the precinct.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

613.371

When they go to the station, they begin their formal taped interview. And police ask Robert about the scratches on his face. And he actually, like, jokes about it and lifts up his shirt to show them matching scratches on his chest. What? And he says that all of these scratches, like face and chest, are from his cat. And police are like...

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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OK, well, then let me ask you about a specific friend of yours. When is the last time you saw Jennifer Levin? Now, Robert tells the police that, yes, I was at Dorian's. I saw her there. And the last time, though, that I saw her was like right outside of Dorian's. But we said goodbye kind of went our separate ways and I didn't see her again.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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Now, the whole time that they're talking, Robert is uber calm, like not nervous like you think he would be sitting in an interrogation room. But almost his attitude is like kind of mildly annoyed about this whole thing. Like it's just so inconvenient that he's there. And after a couple of hours, he actually starts to get rude.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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And basically like he's put out by the police disturbing him for something as silly as a murder investigation. And it's then... Hours later, among his annoyance, that he starts to change his story. Now he says, well, I actually left Dorian's with Jennifer. He tells police now that they decided to leave at the same time. They didn't just like part ways outside of Dorian's.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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Now he has them walking together up 86th Street in the direction of Central Park. Now, at this point, the police pump the brakes for a second. Like, it's usually a sign of something big when statements start changing. And they're thinking, OK, we may have our prime suspect in our hands right here, right now, which would be great because the media is already all over this thing.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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So to make sure nothing is missed, they call in the assistant district attorney and they ask Robert if he's willing to make another statement and they want this one recorded. So he's like, yeah, for sure. Let's let's have the tape start rolling. So watching the video, the thing that gets me the most is Robert's whole attitude.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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Like, I don't know if you've ever watched any of like the Brat Pack movies from the 80s, but he's got this very entitled air about him. Yeah. Like if you've seen Pretty in Pink, he totally reminds me of like the James Spader rich boy attitude, like consequences are for other people.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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And even in the second recorded interview, he's still super calm as he starts to tell his story about what happened the night before. Now, according to Robert, he does see her at Dorian's. They do leave at the same time. But this time, they aren't just like walking up the street together. This time, his story is that Jennifer wanted to go into Central Park with him.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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And he says he wasn't interested in any of it and he just wanted to go home, but went with her anyway. And he goes on to tell police and the ADA that she went to the bathroom, like somewhere off in the shadows when they got to the park. Then she came back and started putting the moves on him, even tying up his hands behind his back with her own underwear.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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Because according to him, she says that she thinks he looks cuter if he's tied up. As Robert continues with his story, he tells police that Jennifer then sits on his chest facing away from him, reaches into his pants and sexually assaults him, scratching his chest while she did it. And he says he's in pain. He's scared. He couldn't get away because his hands were tied.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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And I'm telling you, you're going to be so invested because this case horrified and captivated the public while setting off bitter debates about sex, privilege, legal ethics, parental responsibility, socioeconomics, victims' rights, and so much more. Because before there was the O.J. Simpson trial, there was the Preppy murder. Our story begins in the early morning hours of August 26, 1986.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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And now right away, red flags are going up for the cops in the ADA because they don't buy any of this. Now, a lot of their skepticism came from the idea at the time that they believed men couldn't be raped, which we know is totally false. Right. It can happen to anybody, regardless of gender.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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So, no, she wasn't, like, super tall or strong. She actually had a pretty slight build when you see pictures of her. Meanwhile, Robert's over six feet tall and nearly 200 pounds. Like, realistically, he'd have no trouble getting a girl of Jennifer's size off of him.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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And I mean, again, you're not, like, tied up with handcuffs or zip ties, like, a single piece of underwear, if that's really what happened. And both the ADA and the police don't think that there's any way she could have done what Robert's saying unless he let her do it. Now, Robert continues with his story and it doesn't become any more believable.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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According to him, eventually he gets one hand free and manages to toss Jennifer off of him. He says after he pushed her off, then she just doesn't move. And at first he says he thinks that she's just like kidding around. But here's the thing. When he's talking about her to police, like telling them this story, I push her off. He says something really strange. He doesn't use her name.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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He calls her the body, like the body didn't move, which is super strange, but it's also a contradiction because if you thought she was joking around and kidding... Like then she's not just a body. Yeah, like you wouldn't think she was a dead body. It doesn't make sense. So when police ask him what he did next, no one could have expected his bizarre response.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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Robert says he didn't try to do CPR on her. He didn't call the police. He didn't even leave the scene. He says after all of this, he just stayed in the park. Wait, what? Yeah, apparently he just hung out there in Central Park and watched police show up. And he's saying this on tape with nothing in his voice to suggest that he gets how this could sound weird.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Preppy Murder in New York

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The police arrest Robert right then and there, and they're feeling really good about it. They've got a prime suspect in custody. He's on tape confessing this is a home run. It seems simple. But we know no case is ever simple. The murder of Jennifer Levin in Central Park is already a media circus. But once Roberts arrested, it gets even worse.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

0.549

Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1006.924

Jenny told us that she was for sure by that time. Like she was done, but she can't speak for her brother Jeff. She said that she has reasons to believe that Jeff was still speaking to their dad back then. But in the end, after this grand jury, the prosecutor informed her that they didn't have enough evidence for an indictment coming out of that.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1029.404

And when Jenny asked the prosecutor what they would need, he pointed to two things. He said, if this is going to move forward, we either need a body or we need a witness. But neither of those things were materializing. Then months turn into years. And by August of 1984, with her mother's case now three years old, Jenny hires a private investigator named Charles Pearson.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1053.128

And technically, at least according to a single source, like he's actually the second PI hired. Like another brought on a few years earlier, didn't really make any real progress like finding answers in the case. So this is the second one. Charles, though, has this idea that he thinks could help Jenny get what she needs.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

106.309

And inside the lunchbox, they find Charlotte's migraine medicine. But again, no sign of Charlotte and no sign of her car, which like you could say would be all the more reason to think maybe she left on her own. But if she did that, why not take the medicine that she needs with her?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1069.298

He discovers that by this point, Vicki McAllister and Fred Grabby are no longer together.

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MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1081.204

Yeah, nobody wants a case to go cold, but there is like this point. before you lose everyone in the case, where, like, it could actually be a huge benefit if you didn't make progress before.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1094.41

Like, this could be huge for this case. Right, and so this is what Charles is thinking, too. Now, at first, he wants to be sly about this. So he doesn't just, like, go straight to Vicky. He starts hanging around some bars where Vicky is known to drink, play pool. The Chicago Tribune reports that they meet at one of the bars. They become kind of friendly. And after he...

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1114.08

Weasels his way in, gains her trust, whatever. He eventually drops the charade, explains that he's a P.I. and then presses Vicky on what she might know about Charlotte's disappearance. And to his surprise, girl just tells him the truth, like admitting, yes, she drove Charlotte's car that day. And yes, she knows exactly what happened. Because she witnessed it.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1139.008

And she goes on to tell him the horrific details of what Fred did to Charlotte on that July day back in 1981. And her story is pretty similar to what she told police back then. She said she and Fred arrive at the shed to pick up that barrel. And at some point, Charlotte came in from the field on her tractor. Vicky hides, just like he said. Mm-hmm.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1163.266

But when Fred and Charlotte get into this argument, this is where Vicky's story changes from her original one and from what Fred originally said. She says that now Fred, who's like 6'4", 280 pounds, becomes violent and he attacked the much smaller Charlotte and ultimately strangled her to death. And Vicky watches all of this? Brit, she is like, not just hiding in the truck, she's like,

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1189.068

peeking out from behind the truck. And she says that after Charlotte was dead, Fred loaded her body into that barrel that they like came to get, put it on the back of his truck, and then told Vicky to drive Charlotte's car. He even gave her some gloves to avoid prints, even a bandana to try and cover that hair that might be recognized. And then they dumped Charlotte's car in Terre Haute.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1214.842

Then they went to Vicky's place about 20 minutes away in Rosedale. And if murdering his wife wasn't bad enough, Vicky says that once they got to her place, Fred stripped Charlotte and then sodomized her corpse.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1230.27

The horror show kept going when he took a grease gun. Like, I don't know if you've ever used, like, a caulk gun. Like, think of that. He filled Charlotte's body with grease. And Vicky said he did this because it would make Charlotte's body easier to burn. Basically, as the Forensic Files episode points out, the grease would be flammable. Like, clearly, Fred had a plan in mind.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

126.89

Truly. Sounds like your episode.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1265.011

I know. This dude is sick. And I don't know how, like, did it happen even this way? Like, did Vicky know everything? I think there's a lot you can't know without being Fred. Yeah. But she does know what happened next, so he loaded Charlotte's body back into the barrel. Then around sundown, they took it to the banks of the Wabash River.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1283.925

And under the cover of darkness, and maybe just as her kids were realizing their mom didn't come home that day, Fred poured diesel fuel into the barrel and lit it. And over the next two days... he burned Charlotte's body. And after that was through, Fred dumped the rest of her remains into the river, telling Vicky it would make for good fish bait.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1309.178

Now, she said that the reason she had her fake story the first time, she was always too terrified to say anything, which like, I mean, I kind of get like if he's going to do that to the mother of his children, like, who are you, Vicky, to this guy? But somehow now, again, all these years later, Charles convinces Vicky to tell this story to authorities.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1333.706

Vicky takes the police to the scene where Charlotte's body was burned, even pointing to the tree that the barrel was up against. The problem is it's been too long. They even try like testing the soil to see like what's there, but they don't find anything. Not even so much as evidence of diesel fuel left behind.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1357.972

They do. They do. And because they have a witness, true to their word, in November 1984, both Fred and Vicky are arrested. Now, Vicky, they need her. She's the witness who's like all this hinges on. They offer her a deal of immunity to testify against Fred. There's even some talk of her possibly receiving the reward for this, which was like $25,000 at that point if Fred got convicted.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

138.859

I knew you were going to say all of this. And, yes, you are not wrong, but I haven't given you the full context for why everyone is so worried. Charlotte is actually in the middle of a really nasty divorce with Jeff and Jenny's dad, Fred, which should be marking the end of years of abuse that Charlotte endured at his hand.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1384.332

Big if, because prosecutors know convicting Fred isn't going to be easy.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1392.415

A no body case, I know.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1396.176

Yeah, and it's basically just Fred's word against Vicky's. So they need to figure out how to find a way to corroborate what Vicky is saying, like show that her version is the truth. So in the spring of 1985, with the trial just around the corner, prosecutors get creative.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1414.099

Since any physical evidence connecting Fred to Charlotte has, I mean, basically been destroyed when he burned her body, prosecutors turned to the one thing still literally standing. That tree that Vicky said the barrel was set against while Charlotte's body burned. Now, knowing they didn't find anything when they tested the soil, they wondered if maybe that tree might still hold some evidence.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1437.338

So they call in, wait for it because I've never heard this term, some plant evidence.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1448.651

I know. Plant pathologists. Plant pathologists. Now, what this guy discovers, Britt, is wild. He takes some samples of the tree and then looks at the growth rings. And then he can see somehow that in 1981, most likely in the summer, that's literally how detailed they can get, some kind of damage to the tree took place.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1468.802

And when his colleague examines things further, he can pinpoint some trace of petroleum, a.k.a. diesel fuel. Yeah. And like it is that petroleum or that diesel fuel that caused the damage. They didn't stop there, though, because they can even tell that branches on the other side of the tree away from where Vicky said that the barrel was placed. Those are totally fine.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1490.05

They didn't have the same damage.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1499.613

Like she's telling the truth. Yeah. Our girl's story is spot on. Yes. And the truth can be dangerous sometimes. when you're up against Fred Grabby. Because according to the police files that we have, this is where Fred's old buddy, Dale, suddenly comes back on the scene.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1515.68

Police get a tip from a guy named Jim who says that Dale approached him and was feeling him out for a murder-for-hire job on Vicky. What? Did Dale get arrested for this? Doesn't sound like it. Cool. I know. I don't see anything about him being arrested or like what came of this. Like maybe we have to take all of this with a grain of salt.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1538.61

because it should be noted that Jim had a long criminal record himself. He'd just been arrested for counterfeit or counterfeiting something, whatever. So, I mean, he could have been making all of this up to get himself out of trouble or like get himself a deal or whatever. I don't know. And again, Dale's no longer alive, so I can't ask him.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1555.544

Either way, possible murder for higher plot or not, the trial does go on as planned. Prosecutors are able to prove their case to the jury by putting those tree experts on the stand along with Vicky and Fred's own children who do not hold back. The Journal Gazette and Times Courier reports that Jenny describes at times seeing bruising on her mother's arms and her face.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1578.997

And it appears that all of this is enough for the jury because in June 1985, Fred is convicted of Charlotte's murder. But that is not where our story ends. Not even close. Because just a few weeks after his conviction, a mother of three named Barbara Graham walks into the Clark County Jail and whips out a gun because she's there to break her boyfriend Fred out of jail.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

158.236

I mean, even shortly before the filing, he'd recently been charged with battery for assaulting her. So Fred's clearly not been willing to let go of Charlotte. And while not many people outside of the family know what's been going on behind closed doors, Charlotte doesn't hide these ugly truths from her kids. They're grown adults and she looks to them for support.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1609.509

Barbara fires off five shots, one of which hits a deputy in the leg. Another shot literally goes through a second deputy's pant leg, nearly wounding them too. It is just total chaos before deputies are finally able to wrestle the gun from Barbara and end this bananas breakout attempt. Did Fred put Barbara up to this? Well...

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1630.533

Fred told us that Barbara basically informed him of her plan while he was behind bars. Fred's like, no, babe, it's a bad idea. Don't do it. But of course, like when you talk to anyone who's not Fred, like the story is very different.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1645.04

When authorities interview Barbara, she told them that Fred was instructing her on things to do, like making sure she practiced with the gun, making sure she packed clothes for him. And he was pressuring her to spend all of her time working on getting him out.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1662.228

And the whole thing gets even wilder when she tells authorities that the getaway plan was to hop on a private plane and fly to Florida, pick up new identification there, and then fly to South America. Which, like, how?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1676.694

And like to really drive any suspicion home, authorities think that the gun used in all of this was actually the same gun that was found in Charlotte's car back when she was missing, when they found her car. Like so apparently after the grand jury like let down back in 81, they gave that gun back to Fred. What? I know. I mean, again, like, Jenny told us that he was the owner of it.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1701.047

So, like, I mean, technically, it would be his if that's true.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1725.275

I know. I don't know.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1732.342

Um, well, so because he was just convicted of his wife's murder and prosecutors figure he's, I mean, I'm assuming this is what they're thinking, like he's going to be away for a long time, like though he still has yet to be sentenced at that point. They don't actually pursue charges against him for all of this. Barbara, though, is another story.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1749.998

So per the Journal Gazette and Times Courier, she's charged with attempted murder and two counts of armed violence.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1767.071

I literally had the same thought when I was researching this because I didn't look at a ton of pictures like off the bat. And I was like, okay, he's like getting women to do a ton of like wild stuff for him. Who is this cult leader? It's not what you're going to expect.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

178.321

In fact, she had just told her family like days ago that if she ever didn't come home for any reason... Something was up and they should come look for her.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1781.803

Here's our guy. Okay, okay. Yeah, so, I mean, whatever, whatever.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1797.983

All right. Moving on. Now, whatever hold he had over them, whoever he found that he was able to manipulate, like, it's not just like his wife that he killed that suffered. Like, I feel like there were so many devastating consequences to these women. Like, Barbara, who, reminder, mother of three, ends up getting sentenced to 16 years in prison for this stunt. Right.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1823.55

But with Fred sitting in jail, breakout attempt thwarted, and his sentencing on the horizon, authorities have to be ready to get this guy locked up for good and move on. But in early September, less than two months after this breakout attempt, authorities have their hands full with another crime that maybe could be connected to Fred.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1846.565

On September 4th, 1985, authorities get a call that they probably can't believe. As reported by the Herald and Review, it's from a truck driver who, while passing the Grabby property, sees not one, but two homes on fire. One is the main house where Charlotte lived, and the other is a smaller house once occupied by her son Jeff and his wife Cindy.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1870.746

Thankfully, when this all happens, no one is inside. But immediately, authorities suspect that this is arson. And it's not long before they get proof of it when they discover that some kind of flammable liquid was used to start these fires or like get them going.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1892.652

So in the Forensic Files episode, Dan Crumrin, the acting sheriff at the time, suspects just that. But we actually dug a little deeper on this. My new favorite saying, always go a layer deeper. Yeah. And Jenny told us something else that has been suggested by law enforcement but never actually proven. She says that it was actually her brother Jeff who burned down the home.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

190.704

I'm trying to tell a story here. So to add to their worry, a couple of neighbors tell Jeff and Jenny that Fred was actually spotted in the area around 4 to 4.30. So the kids set off to find Fred at this point.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1915.978

And she said that he admitted this to her. It was maybe an attempt to get the insurance money, possibly with Fred, maybe on his own. Like, that's not totally clear. According to her recollection, though, that was never actually paid out. And it sounds like, at least according to the Journal Gazette and Times Courier, these homes were caught up in some kind of legal mess at the time anyway.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1938.85

So whatever the plan was, I'm not sure that it worked for whoever had that plan. But it's important to point out that it doesn't appear police could ever connect Fred or anyone else, not Jeff, to these fires. All they could do was speculate at the time. About a week after this fire, this is when Fred does get sentenced, and he gets sentenced to life in prison.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1962.221

So at this point, for law enforcement and the Grabby family, justice is finally served. But that feeling is short-lived. Roughly a year after his original sentencing, Fred's case gets overturned on appeal. This is in September of 1986, and a new trial gets ordered.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1981.884

According to the Journal Gazette, it's overturned because the courts find jurors were given improper instructions concerning Vicky's testimony specifically.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

1996.314

Well, that and... get the right judge in the right county. Because, I mean, I've seen like other cases where there's like a gaping hole you could run a truck through and those get denied. But here, overturned. So while prosecutors wait to retry Fred for Charlotte's murder, they decide to go after him for his possible involvement with the escape attempt back in 1985 to keep him locked up.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

2017.976

Now, initially, they knew Fred would go away for a long time. So remember, they didn't see the point in taking him to court on those minor charges. But now with his ruling overturned, like, OK, let's get him on something. But their plan doesn't work. First, there's a mistrial for that. Then Fred is acquitted for that.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

2035.089

So the stakes in Fred's retrial for Charlotte's murder hold even more weight now. In March 1988, the new trial is about to begin. And much like the first time, Fred's children, Jenny and Jeff, are supposed to testify against their dad. But there's a problem. Jeff's wife, Cindy, hasn't heard from Jeff in days. He's like fully MIA, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

204.008

One of our reporters, Emily, spoke to Jenny for this episode, and she said that they looked around for him a little bit, specifically at a couple of bars in the area where he was known to spend a lot of time. But when they couldn't find him, Jenny reached out directly to the Clark County Sheriff, James Thompson, known to the family and others in this small town as Red.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

2061.658

Like he was scheduled to testify again.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

2069.061

I don't think anyone really knows. At least one source at the time reported that he might have been trying to dodge his creditor. So I think everyone is just really confused at first. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

2152.623

Thank you. Thank you.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

221.482

And by the next day, Red enlists the help of the state police, who are able to track Fred down. They end up finding him on the farm in the very place that his wife might have disappeared from, that shed. Per the records, Fred tells police that in the early afternoon on the 24th, he showed up at the shed with a woman named Vicki McAllister because she wanted a burn barrel.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

2248.592

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

2307.498

Thank you. We'll be right back. Thank you. We'll be right back. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

244.778

So Fred began to load one up just as Charlotte started to pull up on the tractor. So I guess he instructed Vicky to hide in the front seat of his truck because, oh, by the way, Vicky was his new girlfriend. Oh. And he wanted to avoid some kind of blow up.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

2533.106

Thank you. Thank you.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

259.966

But it sounds like that didn't really matter because then he admits that when Charlotte got off the tractor, they started arguing about his and Vicky's relationship anyways. And Fred says that the fight ended with him telling Charlotte to go to hell and then he hopped in his truck and drove away.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

275.652

And he says that Charlotte actually followed him in her car, racing up behind him to give him the finger. And the last time he saw her is when he crossed over I-70 while Charlotte went right heading towards Terre Haute, Indiana, which is like just over the state line, about 20 minutes from Marshall. And the Grabby property is super close to the border near the Wabash River.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

298.075

convenient that she just left on her own very and fred also tells police that charlotte has done this before and you know what like she might be gone we might not be able to find her but she's gonna come back she's playing some kind of game and did he say where he and vicky went after this altercation He says that he went to a trailer, which I think belonged to Vicky.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

319.248

And he said he got there around 4 p.m. and then he stayed there till the next morning. Okay, Fred. I know, but like at least part of what Fred told police seems to be true. Because police follow up with the grabby neighbors who indicate that they did see Fred driving in his pickup truck down the road with Charlotte's car following right behind him. Just like he said.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

340.325

One of those neighbors said that this happened between 4.15 and 4.30. But this is where Fred's narrative starts to fall apart because both neighbors that they end up talking to tell authorities that they don't believe it was Charlotte driving Charlotte's car. One of the witnesses describes the driver as a woman who had blonde curly hair. Charlotte is known to have straight, short, dark hair.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

363.646

And both witnesses know Charlotte super well. So these accounts like have some real teeth to them.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

373.092

This is my first question. We asked Jenny and all these years later, she says she couldn't exactly remember. She remembered it being like frizzy. But according to police records we got our hands on, Cindy did tell police that Vicky had blonde curly hair. And also, we did get our hands on some pictures of her from back in the day. And like, definitely it looks light colored, definitely curly.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

394.607

So I don't think it's a mystery as to who could have been driving Charlotte's car. Now, if I were Red or the state police, obviously, I'm going straight back to Fred, calling him a big fat liar and pressing him to tell me why witnesses spotted someone who looked an awful lot like his girlfriend driving his missing wife's car the day that she went missing.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

4.211

And the story I have for you today is a doozy. Around every corner, there's a twist. After a woman goes missing, it's up to law enforcement and her children to make sure justice is served. But listen closely, because we think that there might be more crimes out there connected to this case that are yet to be solved. This is the story of Charlotte Grabby. It's around 8 p.m.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

416.041

Yeah, but I don't know if they did any of that. Like, there's nothing I can see in the files that we have that shows they went and pressed Fred. And I'm not saying they didn't. But what we do know is that on July 26th, this is now two days after Charlotte was last seen, this is when police interview Vicky.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

433.472

Except there's nothing about them pressing her on if she was the one driving that car, not like the thing I want to know the most. Vicky pretty much just tells them the same story that Fred did. She says that she was hiding in the truck. She could hear Fred and Charlotte arguing. Fred eventually jumped in the truck and then they drove away, arriving to her trailer between like four and five.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

452.256

So police don't get a whole lot from Fred and Vicky. Because it feels like we're not asking any of the important questions. Fair. But maybe they wanted to find Charlotte's car before they go making accusations. And luckily, that is exactly what happens next, like the very same day that they interview Vicky. Charlotte's car is discovered parked and locked at a bar in Terre Haute.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

476.485

And unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, there's nothing super alarming about the condition of the car. Like when police finally get inside and search the vehicle, there's no signs of a struggle or blood or anything. The only thing of interest that we do know they find in the car is a gun. But in rural Indiana, it's, like, honestly not weird to find that in someone's car.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

507.335

Yeah, and Jenny told us that in her mom's case, she thinks that this gun... that they found was actually one that her dad purchased, but he never took it with him when he moved out of the house after the split. So her mom was keeping it with her and on her, like, for protection, basically.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

530.673

You know, I don't think there's any testing they can do on the gun itself. I mean, I know they could test Fred for like GSR gunshot residue to see if he'd fired a gun. Right.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

541.096

Yeah. Nothing says that they did this, though. But I don't think there's like a test you can run on a gun to know if it was fired within the last couple of days.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

548.24

So I know the car eventually gets returned to Marshall for further examination, and then things like hairs and fibers and fingerprints are found in the car, but none of these things that are found seem to tie directly back to Fred or Vicky.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

561.506

So while the car didn't appear to provide a ton of new information, finding that gun that Charlotte kept close for protection just reinforced how truly terrified she was of Fred. And if there was any doubt about that, Charlotte cleared that up in her own words. Police found that Charlotte kept a safety deposit box at a local bank.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

586.186

And when investigators got access to that box, they found a three-page signed letter dated July 10th. This is about two weeks before she disappeared. And in this letter, Charlotte accuses Fred and his business associate, this guy named Dale, of doing some shady stuff, like stealing from other farms.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

606.395

And Charlotte's letter also describes a scheme where Dale and Fred would remove serial numbers from oil pump jacks, which seems to indicate that they were maybe stolen or stealing them or whatever. So essentially, these two were getting into all kinds of things. But even more damning, Charlotte says in her letter...

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

61.708

on July 24th, 1981, when 21-year-old Jenny Grabby gets a call saying that her 39-year-old mother, Charlotte, hasn't come home after working in the fields on the family farm. Now, Jenny's brother, Jeff, and his wife, Cindy, Cindy's actually the one calling. They also live on the property with Charlotte, which is how they realized that she was MIA so quickly.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

625.529

Quote, Fred and I are getting a divorce and I'm not sure I will not be killed through all of this. End quote.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

646.016

You want to, like, reach back in time and be like, you're writing this letter for a reason. Like, you're not crazy. You need to... Do something.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

654.861

And this is like, you know, the PSA we do to everyone. Like, if you're having those feelings, like, so many times people are like, well, it's not going to happen to me. And I just... I'm going to write it down just in case.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

664.006

Just in case is like you're at a line that like it's already gone far too far. So like we're going to have a ton of links to resources in the show notes. But like there are plenty of people out there like Charlotte who are like doing things like this, writing this letter. So the signs that Charlotte was in danger before she vanished were very real, not just in the form of assaults from Fred.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

684.131

Jeff tells police that actually the day before Charlotte's disappearance, she got a strange call from a woman. And this woman told Charlotte that she had some documents that would get Fred in trouble and she wanted to meet up at a bar. Mm.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

701.379

Obviously no. Charlotte's not even falling for it either. And when the woman refused to give her name, Charlotte refused to go meet her. Yeah. But like this is another big mystery within a mystery. Who was this woman? What was this all about? It only adds to like all of the questions they're already asking. And what, if anything, this has to do with Charlotte's disappearance, police don't know.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

722.469

Because like a lot of things in this case, it's all too vague. But Charlotte's kids don't need the same evidence maybe even the police do or the jury would. They are convinced from the jump that their own father murdered their mother. But not everyone is on that train. There are at least a few people who are on Fred's side.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

746.048

Police interview a friend of Fred's named Estill, and he tells police almost exactly what Fred told them. He thinks that Charlotte is playing some kind of game. That she would come back. And he doesn't think that Fred would ever harm Charlotte. Police also talked to Fred's business associate, Dale.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

761.782

And according to a Forensic Files episode, he, oddly enough, tells police that he, you know, thinks Fred didn't do it because Fred was with him at his house on the night of the 24th. OK, get your story straight, Dale. Right. Because like Fred's saying he's at Vicky's, right?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

784.881

Precisely. And worth noting that Jenny told us that Charlotte was afraid of Dale, too. Now, Dale is unfortunately no longer alive or like I would have just gone and asked him about all of this.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

806.791

Right. No, not really. So according to Jenny... Her mom usually went out to the field like really early in the morning, often at daybreak, like as farmers are known to do. Sometimes she would work till like late in the night. The only thing we have to even kind of give us a timeline are those neighbors who saw Fred and not Charlotte driving away.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

826.463

So like remember, one of those neighbors puts this between 4.15 and 4.30 p.m. Another neighbor actually puts Fred's truck at the shed between 3 and 4. But by 4.30, both the truck and Charlotte's car were gone. If something happened to her at the shed and like at this time frame, we're looking at 3 to 4.30 and then like who knows where Fred really was and when after that.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

84.214

So Jenny hops in her car, drives the few miles to the farm in Marshall, Illinois. And together, she, Cindy and Jeff head to the soybean field where Charlotte had been working. Now, even though she's nowhere to be seen when they show up, they know she was here because they look in the shed that's nearby and they find Charlotte's tractor. They find Charlotte's lunchbox sitting on it.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

851.773

As August rolls in, authorities and locals form search parties to look for Charlotte, including searching the Wabash River near the Grabby property. But it is a needle in a haystack because Marshall is located in rural Illinois and the area is quite literally thousands of acres of corn and soybean fields.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

871.377

Our reporter Emily actually was able to interview Fred for this episode, and he said that they had over a thousand acres with most of it being in Illinois, but like some of the land crossed the state line into Indiana.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

884.701

Oh, yeah.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

895.523

Right. It's not like there's a lot out there. And when you think about like even like cornfields and stuff too, like the corn is high this time of year. It's not like you can just like peer far and wide.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

913.695

And for everyone who did not grow up on a farm like you, Emily actually went out there with Jenny to like look at the property where she was last seen. So we're going to have photos up there today. It's still even very rural today. So you guys can kind of get a sense of what we're talking about for our city folk.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

928.224

Now, by September, probably feeling a tug of desperation, the police actually call in a psychic to make sure they're just leaving no stone unturned. But even then, they have no luck locating Charlotte. Or should I say Charlotte's remains? Because Jenny and Jeff are sure, sure, sure, sure that their mother is gone. And they're so sure who is responsible. Right.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

953.243

So it's like salt in the wound for them when their father does an interview with the Herald and Review and now publicly says that he thinks his wife is alive.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

963.748

And this just pushes Jeff and Jenny even more, and they pressure authorities to convene a grand jury. And in October of 1981, they get their wish, sort of.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

978.45

There's a regular grand jury, not a sort of grand jury. But the problem is when Fred and his girlfriend Vicky appear before the grand jury, they just plead the fifth. So like the people they believe know something that they're like pushing this grand jury for aren't saying a word.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe

999.178

Yeah, I know.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

0.149

Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

1016.811

So now that they know all of this, police bring Kevin in for an interview to suss out what he knows about the weapon used in Diana's assault. I think they're probably hoping he's going to say too much. But he stays calm through the whole thing. Later, he even agrees to take a polygraph that he passes. But police can't shake this feeling that something isn't adding up.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

1038.41

But does that mean he tried to kill her? The idea that a roaming psychopath just happened upon their apartment in the exact small window that Kevin went out to get food seems almost unbelievable. Except for the fact that at this very time, there was a roaming psychopath attacking women in almost the exact way that Diana had been attacked.

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And just a week into the investigation of Diana's case, police get word of another brutal attack. A 24-year-old named Deborah Kennedy is found by her sister bludgeoned to death inside their shared apartment. Now, authorities determined in that case that Debra had been sexually assaulted. And the similarities in the victim profiles are hard to ignore.

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Both Diana and Debra are young, white, living in the same neighborhood, attacked the same way, both in first-floor apartments... And these two attacks actually fit a much larger pattern because for two years, police have been responding to assaults all across Orange County, California.

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And at least 10 other women who lived in first floor apartments with either unlocked windows or unlocked doors had been attacked in the middle of the night. They'd all been beaten with some kind of blunt object, mostly fatally, and some were sexually assaulted. Now, police believe that they're all the work of a serial killer that they're calling the bedroom basher.

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And for some reason, it takes until Debra's murder for police to finally form a task force to investigate this.

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No, so there are others. Definitely one that we know of who was attacked in July of 1979. She had to have a tracheotomy because of her injuries and has difficulty speaking. And all she remembers about her attack is hearing noises in her apartment hallway before a man grabbed her, told her to shut up. And it doesn't seem like any description of her attacker was ever shared by police.

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So I'm not sure if she couldn't remember what he looked like because of her injuries. Maybe she never saw him. I don't know. So for a while, again, Diana's still recovering. She doesn't remember anything. So they're like really trying to dig into this line of inquiry, hunting down a potential serial killer.

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So she goes to the window to see if she can like see anything out in the yard, but she doesn't see anything. It's like too dark. So she crawls back into bed next to her husband. And what feels like 15 minutes later, she hears another voice, this time a man's voice. And she hears the man say something like, I leave you alone for 10 minutes, half an hour. This is what happens to you.

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But along the way, they get hundreds of tips with conflicting information, which kind of leads them to wonder if they're right. Like, is this a serial killer or are these a bunch of different people? because to them it seems so far-fetched. Like, really, how could one guy commit all of these horrible assaults so closely together and just fly completely under the radar?

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I'm with you. Like, I don't think it's that wild, but at the time, it was. And then there's another attack. On October 21st, 17-year-old Debra Sr. is found dead by her roommate after leaving a party that they both went to earlier in the night. Again... Deborah's Costa Mesa apartment is on the first floor, and there are no signs of a break-in.

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But even with new evidence from this murder, I mean, they actually have handprints on the windowsill and a semen sample, police don't find any solid leads, and they do end up disbanding the Bedroom Basher Task Force by the end of October. They only give it a month? Less than that, like from what I can tell, like which I couldn't believe. What's the point of a task force for five minutes? Exactly.

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And there's no real reporting explaining why it was disbanded so quickly. I don't even feel like you could like get through all the materials in that time. Or get on the same page as a task force. Yeah. Retired Detective Tom Tarpley, who was with the Tustin PD, he took over the cold case investigation.

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He told us that in that time, basically the task force just like ran its course and with no new information coming in and like possible staffing shortages, like that one seems most likely to be. They just had to return the cases back to like their local jurisdictions and everyone had to kind of work them separately.

Crime Junkie

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So in Diana's case, their last real remaining hope is that Diana will be the one to solve her own case. Maybe she heals. Maybe her memory will come back and she'll be able to tell them who did this to her. And sure enough, out of the blue, one day late in November, they get a call from Diana's dad. He says Diana remembered something, something really big.

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So apparently, Diana had tagged along to her mom Pat's dentist appointment earlier that day. And while waiting for her mom, Diana's sitting in the lobby just kind of like flipping through some magazines. And as she's doing that, she comes across this picture of a baby. And that's when all of a sudden the pieces start clicking into place. I mean, again, at this point, she remembers nothing. Mm-hmm.

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But she sees this baby and all of a sudden she remembers that she'd been pregnant. And from there, images of her attack start appearing in her mind. And when Pat came out of her dentist's office, Diana was trying to tell her something, but she was struggling to find the words. Because again, remember, she was having to learn how to talk all over again.

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It's not just her memory's gone, her basic skills are gone. So she said something like, Ivan hit me, Evan hit me. And to her mom, Pat, it sounds like she's trying to say Kevin instead of Ivan. So what they do is they take Diana to a speech therapist before anyone even confronts Kevin with this because this is huge. And when that person asked Diana, who hurt you?

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Diana points to her wedding ring, and the therapist asks her if she means Kevin, and Diana says yes. And that's all police need to hear. Detective Tarpley believes that this is when they pull Diana's case out of the bigger bedroom basher investigation, like, In that moment, I mean, again, they're all worked separately at that point.

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But in that moment, they're like, oh, clearly this is something else. And they like pull it out because they're like, okay, our surviving victim has just told us who did this.

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Like Kevin can't be the bedroom basher. No, they've ruled Kevin out on those other attacks based on his work schedule alone. So it was always just two options. Either she was part of this serial killer spree and Kevin was innocent or Kevin attacked his wife and her case is unconnected.

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So she kind of just lays in bed and listens in silence, probably holding perfectly still and not wanting to even breathe too loud, just trying to figure out what's going on. And it's the man she hears again next. Judy, Judy, please wake up. And this time she knows she's heard it. So she goes to the window again and outside she sees Diana's husband, 21-year-old Kevin Green.

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And it's clear to them now. It is the latter. Police believe they have their guy. He's been right there in front of them this whole time. And on November 30th, exactly two months after Diana was attacked, they send a squad of patrol cars out to track Kevin down.

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They find him leaving a 7-Eleven, and he is completely caught off guard when police arrest him on charges of murder, attempted murder, and assault. But five days after Kevin's arrest, he's released. The DA doesn't file charges against Kevin because of concerns about Diana's ability to testify against him, at least right now. But they aren't just throwing in the towel.

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To them, it just means that they need to get more. So while Diana divorces Kevin and begins to work with her speech therapist to put words to what happened to her that night, police work on buttoning up their case. They go back to the hospital and they find another nurse that they hadn't spoken to before who has even more stories about Kevin's strange behavior while his wife was in the hospital.

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She says that after Diana woke up, Kevin said, what if she wakes up and doesn't remember who did this and thinks it was me? Which is, like, not a great choice of words. Yeah. But the next thing that the nurse reports is even more disturbing, at least to me. The nurse tells police that there was this time when Diana was restrained using a posy vest.

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That's like this jacket used for trauma patients so they don't, like, pull out their tubes or hurt themselves. Mm-hmm. And the nurse left Diana alone with Kevin while she checked on another patient. And when she looked back through the window into Diana's room, she saw Kevin pulling the ties on Diana's vest so that when she stepped forward, she would be, like, pulled backward and have to sit down.

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And the nurse claimed that Kevin was laughing while this was happening. But Diana, who was still getting her speech back at this point, seemed, like, completely frustrated. Yeah, that feels so... Cruel? Yes. But that still just proves he's a shitty husband. They need something more. And they might have the ace in the hole.

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So there was a lot of speculation early on about whether or not Diana had been sexually assaulted. Everyone seemed to have an opinion. Everyone was hearing different things from different people in the early days. But they had done a forensic exam while she was in the hospital just to be sure. And they had found semen.

Crime Junkie

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Now, initially, this wasn't a huge deal because part of Kevin's story to police was that he and Diana had had sex that night to try and induce labor. Right. So when they did antibody tests on the semen and found that it came from someone with Kevin's O negative blood type, it didn't really do anything to prove or disprove his guilt. About 7% of people are O negative. Kevin's in that 7%.

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Right. But that totally changes when Diana is able to speak enough to tell police her version of events that night, because Diana told us that her speech wasn't all the way there yet when she talked to police, but they understood what she was trying to get across. She communicated that Kevin was drinking and smoking weed that Saturday, which upset her because she was so close to her due date.

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When we talked to her, she claimed she even called him while he was out on that, like, long-ass weed run because she was having contractions. Now, Kevin denies this. He's like, you know, if she was having contractions, we would have gone to the hospital. Either way, by the time he got home, Diana says they fought about this because she was upset. She went into their bedroom, slammed the door.

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Kevin came in, apologized. He wanted to have sex. But Diana says she said no. And when she resisted, Kevin violently sexually assaulted her. And the last thing she remembers is Kevin picking up his key caddy and striking her in the head with it, which she believes knocked her out. What's a key caddy? It's basically like this key ring that sometimes like retracts.

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And he's running like in and out the back door of the Green's apartment, just in this panic, crying out for help. And at one point, she looks through the Green's open kitchen door and she sees him making a phone call. Now, Judy's first thought must likely be, oh, this must be the baby. Because you see, Diana is pregnant two weeks past her due date with her and Kevin's first child together.

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You can like put it on your belt loop or whatever.

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This is part of the theme, right? So Kevin told us, he remembered doctors warning him that Diana was pretty suggestible. But the police reports that Diana sent to us contain a statement from her doctor saying that she only has issues with her speech now at this point, not her memory.

Crime Junkie

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Now, based on the police reports, her friends remember her telling them what she told police at the time, that sex had gotten too painful for her by that point and she was bleeding so she didn't want to have sex anymore. Though there is one friend who remembers Diana saying that she and Kevin tried having sex to induce labor that day, but it hurt too much. So she wanted to stop.

Crime Junkie

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But that was even earlier in the night. Like it doesn't line up with Kevin's story when he claimed they had sex. Now, Kevin claims they never even found any blood on his key caddy, but none of the case files that we have even mention the key caddy one way or another, so I don't know about that part. So they don't have any kind of weapon. We don't know if it's the key caddy.

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It doesn't seem like it would be a key caddy. Again, remember, her brain's exposed. But the DA believes Diana, and that means finding semen that's likely Kevin's to them means he attacked her. So in March of 1980, Kevin is arrested a second time. And this time the charges stick.

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Police add a spousal rape charge, making Kevin one of the first people to be tried for that after California had previously passed a law against it. Which is like wild that you have to pass a law against it, but they did. Now in the months leading up to Kevin's trial, Diana is determined to get justice for her daughter that she'd never got to see grow up.

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The state's case, which has become front page news by this point, rests on her shoulders. Without much other evidence, is Diana's account enough? And what about the emotional and physical demands of a trial? Is Diana up to testifying in court? I mean, these are the questions hanging over investigators who seem to have concerns about the strength of the case.

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Because according to an article in the Hanford Sentinel, they end up dropping the spousal rape charge at some point leading up to the trial. I don't know exactly why. But from those records Diana sent us, it seems like it was tough to establish whether or not the sex was consensual or not. Like every rape case where I've been like, they're not taking on that fight.

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So, in October of 1980, just over one year after her attack, Diana takes the stand in front of Kevin and devastatingly details an abusive marriage that culminated in an assault that caused permanent, life-altering damage. I mean, still, she is partially deaf in one ear, fully deaf in the other. She's lost her sense of smell. She has a plastic plate in her head and...

Crime Junkie

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She has had to relearn basic language skills from scratch. Reading, writing, speaking, communication that was once as easy as breathing is now a daily struggle for her. After her emotional testimony, Kevin's defense is up next. They can't introduce the polygraph that he passed into evidence. The judge won't allow it. So they put all of their focus on discrediting Diana's memories.

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They point out that in pretrial hearings, she said that her attacker took off all his clothes. But then at the trial, she said he was fully clothed. They have Kevin take the stand in his own defense, and he points the finger at the man who was standing outside the apartment. Someone he says that police didn't look at hard enough, especially while this bedroom basher was roaming the streets.

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a girl that they plan to name Chantal Marie. So Judy and her husband both quickly get dressed. They rush downstairs to help. And that's when Kevin screams that Diana has been attacked. And what he says next makes Judy's blood run cold. He says that Diana has been shot in the head. Kevin found her when he got home from a late night fast food run.

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And after a grueling week and a half long trial, the jury only deliberates for three hours before coming back with a verdict. Kevin is found guilty of Diana's attempted murder and the second-degree murder of their daughter Chantal Marie. And the judge sentences him to 15 years to life in a maximum security prison. And to be clear, no one's happy about any of this.

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I mean, to Diana, this verdict is a tragedy. But I'm sure Kevin's sentence finally makes her feel safe. I mean, she told us that's when she could move on with her life. That's when she got a job. She went to beauty school. And then two years after Kevin's conviction, she met someone new, someone she'll end up having a daughter with. And meanwhile, Kevin's not exactly a model prisoner.

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According to an article in the Deseret News, he deals drugs. He starts fights, which he told us is how he survived in prison. Now, come 1989, Kevin is up for parole for the first time, and Diana remembers him showing up in chains. And she does. She attends every single one of his parole hearings to make sure he stays behind bars. But in the DA's eyes...

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Kevin seals his own fate at those parole hearings because he never takes responsibility for the crime that he was convicted of. He still claims that he's innocent and he still claims that the guy outside his apartment is the one responsible for attacking Diana. So not seeing any signs of remorse, the DA's office opposes Kevin's release.

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But then a few years into his time in prison, Kevin seems to turn his life around. He gets sober. That same article in Deseret News reports that he earns a degree in computer science. He gets a job as an office clerk in the prison. And that's actually where he meets his third wife. And he and his daughter with his first wife both told us that from that point, he stays on track.

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And this is one where we got to go like full crime junkie, going super deep, talking to the people who actually lived this story. So even if you do think you know it, I promise I will give you something new. And I promise it will leave you thinking long after this episode. Because while this is a rare solved case where the victim actually survived,

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He actually tries to be as present of a dad as he can be from prison. She and her mom told us they always believed in Kevin's innocence and that he was never capable. They didn't think he was capable of attacking Diana so brutally. And actually, a detective working on one of those bedroom basher cases in 1996 is about to find out that they're right.

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So with advances that come in DNA testing in like mid to late 90s, Detective Tom Tarpley of the Tustin PD starts taking a second look at all those murders that had once been attributed to this elusive bedroom basher. Those cases are all still unsolved and they were hoping to make progress on them years later. And one of those cases that he's looking into stands out. Deborah Kennedy.

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She's the one who was killed just a week after Diana's attack. So Detective Tarpley submits a DNA sample that they have on file from Deborah's case to CODIS. And so soon, he gets a hit. The sample matches 41-year-old Gerald Parker, who Detective Tarpley learns has been serving time in a prison for a parole violation.

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And thank freaking God he did this testing when he did because Gerald was scheduled to be released the next month. His DNA was in CODIS because he was convicted of sexually assaulting a 13-year-old girl after abducting her. Like, He had grabbed her and thrown her into his van on her way home from her dad's funeral. What? I know. So in June of 1996, Detective Tarpley visits Gerald in prison.

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And though she is still alive, she needs help right away if she's going to make it. So Judy jumps into like go mode to flag down the ambulance that Kevin called because it keeps like passing by the complex. And when she leads paramedics inside the apartment, Judy is stunned by what she sees. There is blood everywhere. everywhere.

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And he's not alone. Police in Costa Mesa have been looking into Gerald, too, because his DNA matched samples from three of their unsolved murders. Were these cases known bedroom basher cases? All three of the Costa Mesa murders were, and those include Deborah Sr. Gerald says he did have violent urges.

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He heard voices, but he says he's been prescribed medication for those mental health issues and he can't remember assaulting anyone, let alone, he says he can't remember the four women that they're talking to him about. He claims that his memory of that time and his life apparently, like as a whole, isn't great because of his substance use disorder while he was in the Marines.

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And at the time of the murders in Costa Mesa, He was living at a Marine Corps airbase, working nights in a helicopter squadron.

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And at the same time, at the same base in Tustin. Yeah. And this is when like all the feelers go up because apparently so many years on, even the DA had started making some rustlings. Like by this point, he wasn't so sure that Kevin was their guy anymore. I don't think anything specific was being done yet in Diana's case to prove or disprove that feeling.

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But a case that they once thought was connected to Diana now being solved, the killer having a connection to where Diana's husband worked, was just like a little too weird to write off. So when Costa Mesa police don't really get anywhere with Gerald, Detective Tarpley goes in and tries his hand at questioning him.

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And he shows Gerald first a picture of Deborah and asks, why would your DNA be at the scene of this woman's murder? But Gerald claims he doesn't recognize her, says he has no idea why his DNA would be there. But he does admit that he had been in that area where her apartment was. And that's when Detective Tarpley runs Gerald through Diana's attack and reminds him that Kevin is serving time for it.

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And Gerald not only admits that he read about the case, but he gives up details only someone who had been in the apartment should know, like the street it was off of, the layout of the bedroom Diana was attacked in, the fact that the door to the apartment was on the side of the building. Detective Tarpley is actually amazed by how much Gerald remembers after 16 years.

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So he asked him if he knew Kevin while they were in the Marines, but he says he didn't. I mean, how? I don't know. I have no idea how many people served on that base or worked, like, in that squadron. But it was, like, a 4,700-acre facility. So, I mean, we're not talking something small, but still, it feels like a big coincidence. Like, massive. Yeah.

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Anyway, Gerald asks Detective Tarpley if Kevin is on death row and Detective Tarpley says he's not sure. But hearing about Kevin's conviction seems to flip some kind of switch in Gerald. He's like lost in thought. And Detective Tarpley thinks that he's on a verge of a confession. So he makes one last plea for Gerald to do the right thing. And that hits Gerald hard.

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Diana is laying in bed, naked in a pool of her own blood, and she is struggling to breathe. And Britt, it's literally so bad that her brain is exposed. So paramedics rush Diana to the hospital where her family is waiting because Kevin had called them too. And he's probably like chomping at the bit to get there as well.

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He finally asks for Costa Mesa police to come back in because he's ready to talk. And when everyone is back in the room, he says he believes an innocent man, meaning Kevin Green, is on death row for something that he did. And out of all the murders, all the assaults, all the horrible things he's done, that's what's been eating away at him for almost two decades.

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That's all. Not concerned about the women he killed or left fighting for their lives. Right. This man who was in prison for something he didn't do. And though to even be clear, like it's not like he did anything once he saw that Kevin had been arrested and convicted. Right. This has been decades on now. And it's when he's confronted.

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But now at least he's finally telling something resembling the truth. Gerald likely was the man that Kevin saw by the van when he left the apartment that day. Because Gerald says after a night of drinking, he parked his van near the Greens apartment complex and he was walking past their apartment when he heard Kevin and Diana arguing. And then he heard a door slam. He heard a car drive away.

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So Gerald says that he went back out for a drink for what he thinks was an hour before coming back to the apartment. Now, this is where, like, things don't totally add up because we know that Kevin was only gone for, like, 20 minutes. So... The timeline is weird, but Gerald does admit that he was high during all of the murders.

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So my only thought is that maybe what felt like an hour to him was 20 minutes. Or he even got that wrong because I don't even know how he'd have time to go and come back. Anyway, someone's timeline isn't quite adding up. But Gerald says he comes back to the apartment at some point. And by that time, he had gotten in the habit of just checking if doors or windows were unlocked.

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And Kevin, remember, had left that kitchen door unlocked. So he says he picks up a board, like some kind of two-by-four piece of plywood that he found outside. He went inside to where he found Diana in the bedroom. And he says that she actually, like when he walks in, she like sits up in bed and like stared at him. before laying back down.

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And Gerald says he thinks this is why she thought it was Kevin. She like didn't realize it wasn't him. I don't know if he was like backlit or something. And like put the pieces together. If someone's in my room, it's got to be Kevin. The guy that just like left and came back.

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But as soon as she like gets up, lays back down, Gerald says he rushed at her with the board, striking her in the head before sexually assaulting her.

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Yes, he's telling the truth about not being the one who attacked her.

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The thing is, like, there's no version of Kevin's story that he's ever told where him and Diana fight before he leaves. But, like, that seems like that's what happened, right? Like, based on what neighbors heard, based on Diana's own account, based even on what Gerald said that he witnessed. Do they ever try to say that Kevin hired Gerald?

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No, I think they just take Gerald at his word when he says that him and Kevin didn't know each other. And, I mean, after all this time, like, Gerald has never said that.

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And listen, while it might be easy for someone to argue with this confession of a man who is a serial killer, like, what you can't argue with is DNA. And luckily, the sexual assault test kit that was done in Diana's case has not been thrown out yet. And it hadn't been ever tested for DNA, remember, just a blood type. Right, because it was back in like the late 70s.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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But the officers who also responded to the apartment say they need him to stay behind because, you know, Like, they got to talk to him. And he's clearly distraught, but he cooperates because he wants police to do their jobs and find whoever did this to his wife. So police asked Kevin to walk them through his day leading up to finding Diana. And we actually got to speak with him.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

2513.5

Yeah, and in another just like weird coincidence, Gerald and Kevin have the same blood type. But PCR tests confirmed that the DNA was Gerald's, not Kevin's. And just so like we're on the same page, these tests that prove that Kevin didn't attack Diana, that Kevin wasn't the one who killed their daughter, those by this point had been available for like 12 of the 16 years he'd been in prison.

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Kevin said they tried. He said they reached out to or he did at one point reach out to a lawyer who was like one of the first in California to successfully test. But it wasn't feasible. That lawyer wanted like 10 grand to just look into whether there was DNA to test and then like another 10 grand to actually do the test, which he just didn't have. But now...

Crime Junkie

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All in all, police used DNA to tie Gerald to seven bedroom basher cases, including five murders beside Chantal Marie's. Those are Sandra Fry, Kimberly Rollins, Marilyn Carlton, Deborah Kennedy, and Deborah Sr., And he's also identified as a man who attacked a woman named Jane Pettengill, who she's the one who was the other survivor who tried to describe him back in like 1979 to police.

Crime Junkie

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But even though he's identified as that, he's not charged for that because the statute of limitations on that assault ran out. Which is always so wild to me that like, especially when the intent was to kill someone, attempted murder, like just because you failed, like you get to...

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So on June 20th, 1996, this is nearly 16 years after Kevin was sent to prison, the new evidence is brought in front of a judge. And there, a DA recommends that Kevin be declared innocent. The judge agrees with the recommendation and apologizes to Kevin for all the years he's lost to imprisonment. So finally, Kevin's a free man, but it takes time to sink in.

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His ex-wife remembers him calling her from a hotel, terrified that police were going to send him back to prison. Like he can't even believe he's out now. He has to enter also a completely different world than he left. I mean, he's spent almost half his life behind bars.

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But eventually the state of California passes a bill to compensate him $100 a day for each day he served, which comes out to about $620,000. So when he leaves, Kevin, he flies to Salt Lake City. Then he goes to the Midwest to reunite with his family to start over. And finally, he gets to be present for his daughter, who goes on actually to get a criminal justice degree.

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And in most of the reporting, that's where this story ends. But Diana told us that's not where it ended for her. She tells the media how shocked she was by these revelations. I mean, she's like at the time struggling to reconcile her memories with Gerald's confession. She ends up actually meeting with police who show her a photo of Gerald, but she has no idea who the guy is.

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And he gave us the full rundown of that day, too, which we kind of cross-referenced with case records Diana's held on to that she shared with us. And according to police records, Kevin and Diana were home watching TV with his brother, who actually lived with them, until around 6 when a friend of Kevin's came over with his wife.

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Right. And it has to feel, I mean, you went to trial, you believe it in your soul, like something that happened to you. And now she's like also in this place where she's having to like go through that attack again and again. Yeah. Trying to make sense of it. But every time she's like, sure, she didn't mix up.

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She is sure she didn't remember another instance where Kevin had hurt her like he had done so many times before. So, I mean, I'm sure someone was like, oh, maybe you're conflating this with something else. And she's like, no, like I remember what happened. And as everything does slowly start to sink in, police drop another bombshell. They let her know that Kevin has already been released.

Crime Junkie

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So like as she's learning this, she probably thinks he's like it's something that's going to happen. And she still has a sense of like safety or security as she's processing all this.

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And then she has to jump into survival mode. In an LA Times article by Renee Lynch and Dexter Filkin, she says she is considering filing a restraining order against him at that point. Like that's truly just how scared she was. And she said like she kept, I don't know, like the way it was for her, she kept calling police and like asking them about specific details about the investigation.

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SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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Like she just keeps trying to make things worse.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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add up and she said finally police tell her like listen like we've told you everything like you know what might be a good idea is for you to go straight to the source like maybe you should go talk to Gerald before he goes on trial so they tell her to just talk to the serial killer who attacked her yeah and she does she goes and talks to the serial killer who attacked her with her mom right by her side

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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Diana shared with us her mom Pat's super detailed handwritten account of that visit to Gerald, which is dated August 25th, 1996. In a room divided by glass with one seat and a phone on one side and another seat and phone on the other, Gerald sat down across from Pat and Diana. And Pat told Gerald that they wanted to confront him and to get answers about what happened.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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And according to this letter, Gerald told them even more than they expected. He said that he was wandering around Diana's apartment complex when he heard Kevin and Diana arguing. He didn't know what caused the argument, but he stood outside the window and watched Kevin and Diana. And according to Pat's account...

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Gerald claimed that he couldn't make out what it was, but that he saw Kevin reach over, pick something up from the dresser, and hit Diana a few times.

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Not that I could tell. Like, we weren't able to get the full transcript before the recording. But... Pat wrote that Gerald said when he went inside and he found Diana, she was like in this daze. Remember, this is when she like lifts her head, looks at him before like flopping back down. And then the rest is what he told police.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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But this meeting with Gerald is what reinforces Diana's belief that Kevin hurt her before Gerald attacked her. Like in her mind, both can still be true. Yeah. So while Diana leaves, believing that Gerald is responsible for attacking her, she feels more convinced than ever that so did Kevin.

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SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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Around 7.45, Kevin told us that he and his friend went to go buy weed, and the friend's wife stayed behind with Diana. And then they got back at around 10.30.

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And it is incredibly hard for her to wrap her head around the outpouring of public support that he's getting. Diana and Kevin have never spoken in the years since this. Diana told us that he's never tried to reach out to apologize or to make amends. And she firmly believes that he does have something to apologize for.

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SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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It's the reason that she's never been able to forgive him while she says she has been able to forgive Gerald because he at least apologized. Now, Kevin told us that he never reached out to her because he doesn't want to make things harder for her. But things were already pretty freaking hard for her.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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I mean, lingering effects of her physical attack itself aside, now that Kevin has been exonerated, the media all but blames Diana for his wrongful conviction. So after Kevin's convictions overturned, his lawyers say in that LA Times article that nothing Diana says should be believed because her testimony at Kevin's trial has proven that she's not reliable.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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But if there's one thing that this story has taught me, it's that memory is a complicated thing, no matter if you've suffered a brain injury or not. Like, for example, a friend told police that Kevin said that the reason he went out for that cheeseburger at the Jack in the Box was because Diana was craving one. Diana remembers it that way, too.

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SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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But when Kevin talked to us, he said that he'd never craved anything in his life like that cheeseburger. And Kevin told us he didn't drink anything the night of the attack. But multiple witnesses remember him drinking that day. And again, clearly there was some fight that took place that night, but that's never been part of Kevin's story. And is it memory?

Crime Junkie

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3.872

And the story I have for you today has been living in my head rent-free for months. It's one of those older cases that when I first learned about it, I'm like, how am I just learning about it? And if it was new to me, I had a feeling it would be new to a lot of you as well.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

301.841

So, like, 20 minutes or so. And it's worth noting Kevin told us, like, he didn't smoke weed that day. Like, it just took so long, he said, because they got lost.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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Or is it trying to change our memory to make the truth better for certain people, easier? Now, just to be clear, nobody ever believes that Kevin is responsible for the crime he was wrongfully convicted of. He has been completely cleared. And by cleared, I mean ultimately exonerated of it. He was proven factually innocent in a court of law.

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Kevin claims that some police officers called Diana and her mom the crazy ladies when the story like really went public. And I've said it before, we as society are quick to write women off as crazy. But while Diana has had to work hard to communicate her thoughts, she speaks powerfully when she reflects on what she went through.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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And she does just that when she takes the stand again, this time to testify against Gerald when he goes to trial in 1998 for the murder of her daughter and the murders of five other Orange County women, ones that his DNA was tied to.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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And in that case, the jury deliberates for less than two hours before returning a verdict of guilty on all six counts of first-degree murder with a recommendation of the death penalty. Diana told us that she felt a sense of relief when Gerald was convicted of her daughter's murder because he's where he should be, in prison, where he can't hurt anyone else.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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But she still says she wouldn't call it closure. She said that when she got our call about speaking about her perspective of this, she felt some hope that maybe talking about it, talking about what she went through, like the real full story of what she went through, maybe that will bring closure. I mean, since the attack, her life at times has been difficult and frustrating.

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SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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When she was in high school, English was her favorite subject. And before the attack, she loved writing poetry to put her innermost thoughts to paper. But since then, she has had to work hard to find the right words to even express herself, even in everyday conversations. But she has also surprised herself. She recovered better than she ever hoped that she would.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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Like she only had, I don't know if you know this, a 10% chance of survival in the hospital. And now she is like the pillar of support for her friends. She drives them to doctor's appointments and keeps busy and goes on vacations with her grandkids. And she raised her daughter from a place of hope and never a place of fear. So she lived. She lived.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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And we asked Diana what she wants crime junkies to take from her story. And she told us that she hopes that we'll look at her case in a different way than everyone has in the past. That there is more to her story than people think and more to her than what she survived. And there is no doubt in my mind that no matter what happened that night in 1979, Diana is a survivor.

Crime Junkie

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He claims it was for that friend who came over. So... I don't know. They go on this long lead run. Anyway, Kevin came home. His friends leave. Kevin left again to take his brother to go meet friends, which only took like 15 minutes or so. And then he came back at around 1045. And then he and Diana laid on the couch and watched a movie on the TV.

Crime Junkie

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That is who she is at her core. She survived a volatile relationship, a heinous attack by an evil stranger waiting in the shadows, and the death of a child. I mean, her world was turned upside down again and again and again. She is strong and she has never stopped living.

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SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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So if you, crime junkies, you or someone you know are experiencing domestic violence, you can reach out to the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE. We're also going to link to more resources in our show notes. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.

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We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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Now, before midnight, he says that he and Diana had sex. Then they moved the TV into their bedroom so that they could finish the movie in bed. And after about an hour, Kevin left to go get cheeseburgers from a Jack in the Box across the street. Like, thinking he'd be right back, he said that he just left the kitchen door unlocked. But then when he got to the Jack in the Box, it was packed.

Crime Junkie

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Kevin told us he was in a hurry to get back home. He didn't want his wife to wait. So he went to the next closest one, which was like three miles away. Now, arriving back home, he noticed that the front door was open a crack. So he pushed it open with his foot. went inside, and that's when he found Diana.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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And then he makes note of something, something that stood out to him and stands out now to investigators. In an episode of On the Case of Paula Zahn, a detective remembers Kevin telling him that on the way out, like when he was going to Jack in the Box, he noticed, quote, a black man standing next to a black van.

Crime Junkie

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Now, he didn't think much of the guy at the time, but he was still there standing by the van when Kevin got back and found Diana. So now Kevin is thinking that maybe that guy could have hurt his wife. And is that guy still there? Like, did he go out and try to get a hold of the guy after he found Diana?

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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It will have you questioning the reliability of memory and how stories, even the ones that feel straightforward, are always so much more complicated and live in the gray when you dig deep into the details. And that's what we're going to do today. This is the story of Diana D'Aiello. So let me set the scene. We're in Tustin, California, September 30th, 1979.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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I don't know if he makes the connection that this guy could have been the attacker, like, in that moment. I don't think he's, like, really thinking about it until he's talking to police. And in the moment, he was probably so frantic trying to, like, tend to Diana and get her help. That guy goes completely out of his mind. Right. Now, all in all, he says he was gone for about 20 minutes tops.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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And Kevin's story seems to check out because the bag of warm food is literally still like sitting on the table that he just went and got. Now, when he found Diana lying in bed, it was dark. He said that she was making a sound almost like she was fake snoring. So at first he thought she was just like kind of messing around with him.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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But when he turned on the lights, he saw this just massive hole in her forehead, which is what made him think that she'd been shot with. He says he thought it was like a large caliber weapon at close range, like was exactly what he said.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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Well, because Kevin is a Marine corporal who serves at a local helicopter station in the tool shops. I mean, he probably knows his way around a gun. And what he eventually realizes is that fake snoring sound was actually her trying to breathe through pooling blood. So Kevin says he forced her mouth open to help her breathe better. but she like bit down on his fingers when he did.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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And that is when he called police. He says that she was moaning, which to Kevin meant that she was still breathing. So he looked around at the apartment to see if anything was missing. He didn't notice anything like while he's waiting for police. But here's what's so interesting.

Crime Junkie

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Police don't agree with Kevin that Diana was shot because to them, they're like neighbors would have woken up to like the sound of a gunshot, right? Mm-hmm. And about 20 minutes after Diana is rushed to the hospital, police get a call confirming that they're right. Doctors say that Diana was hit in the head with a blunt, heavy object, something like a mallet, maybe a baseball bat.

Crime Junkie

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Yeah, according to Kevin... That's all she was alone for. So police start searching for something that could be the weapon. They don't find anything, though. So they do finally let Kevin go to the hospital to be with his wife. And there, all Diana's family can do is stare at two heart rate monitors. One for Diana, one for her baby. And they're just, they're both fighting for their lives.

Crime Junkie

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Their first granddaughter, too. Oh, my God.

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SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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Are we going to have one or both of them?

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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They could lose both of them. It had to have been like a very surreal moment. And doctors tell them that they're actually holding off on performing an emergency C-section to deliver the baby, which is normally what they would do if it were just the baby in danger. But with Diana's head trauma, like both her and the baby could die if they put her body under any more stress.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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And for right now, the baby's heart rate is steady and they're working to stabilize Diana. Yeah. They do this for about 12 hours. But at about that point, after she's admitted, one of the monitors flatlines. Kevin and Diana's parents are by her side. When doctors rush into the room, they usher the family out. And when doctors come back out, they have a heartbreaking update.

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SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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They lost Chantal Marie. And now they have to rush Diana into emergency surgery to stop the swelling in her brain. So when police arrive at the hospital, Kevin fills them in on everything that has happened. And they brace themselves now, not just for an investigation into an assault, but an assault and now a homicide.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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Yeah, so that's the charge that they hope to eventually hit someone with. But they got to find that someone first. Though, as Diana goes on to make a slow recovery, because she does get out of surgery, she is stable. Police begin to wonder if the person who did this to her, the one that they're looking for, is right there in her hospital room.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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Because Kevin is like saying and doing just some weird shit. Like first, right when they get to the hospital, Kevin tells police that Diana's doctor told him that she was sexually assaulted. But when they go talk to that doctor, he actually can't confirm this. And in his opinion, he says he doesn't think she was.

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SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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Second, when Diana does eventually wake up, this is about 10 days after she's in this coma, her significant brain damage leaves her unable to speak. She has what's called aphasia, and her memory is just wiped, completely gone. She doesn't remember her friends, her family. She doesn't even remember Kevin. And officers who had been at the hospital throughout her coma Notice Kevin's reaction to this.

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Like, he almost seems relieved that Diana can't remember anything. And then finally, Diana and Kevin's friends tell cops that at one point, someone said they hoped that Diana recovered enough to name whoever attacked her. And Kevin's response was, I don't. Now, to be fair, Kevin went on to say that he didn't want Diana to have to relive the trauma again.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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And that friend took that to mean that he was concerned for her well-being. So I don't even think at the time they necessarily were like concerned by it. But like couple all of this together, especially with what they were learning in the field as they were investigating. And Kevin starts looking real bad.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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So the night of Diana's attack, neighbors say that they heard yelling in the complex, followed by a woman screaming. And this was around 2 a.m. They couldn't say for sure that the sound was coming from the Green's apartment, but they assumed that it was an argument between Kevin and Diana because apparently that was a pretty common occurrence.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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And it's worth noting that Kevin told us and police said in an On the Case with Paul is On episode that police had gotten domestic violence calls to the Greens' apartment pretty regularly leading up to the night of the attack.

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SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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So after some kind of argument, screaming, whatever, a few people heard a door slam, then a car speed away, which is not quite the peaceful night in watching TV that Kevin had originally told police about, if all of that commotion was Kevin. But, I mean, it's possible that Kevin did leave quietly, and then what they heard was her attacker screaming,

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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But I keep coming back to, remember that thing Judy heard? I leave you alone for 10 minutes, half an hour, and this is what happens to you? Well, another neighbor remembers hearing that same exact thing, and they thought it was Kevin who said it. Which, if so, would be like a pretty weird response to have. If you come home, you find your spouse in an actual pool of blood.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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You're like upset that they're hurt? Yeah, this is what happened. I leave you alone. Yeah. And that doesn't seem to be lost on police because in their notes, they wrote down that quote or what people heard him say word for word twice. And more and more, the people they speak with who knew the couple say that there was a known history of domestic violence.

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SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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According to their statements, Kevin is a heavy drinker, so much so that one of his friends considered reporting him to his commanding officer for alcoholism. And his drinking caused tension throughout their roughly year-long relationship.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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I don't really know. I mean, probably all of the above. Like Kevin chops some of their fighting up to just them being really young and their story never really having a fairy tale beginning. You see, they met at a bar when Diana was 18 and Kevin was 19. And then soon after they started dating, Diana moved in with Kevin and got pregnant.

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SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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Now, Diana told us that she didn't know at the time, but Kevin was still married to another woman who she said she eventually actually became friends with. But it was really messy before that. Now, we talked to that ex-wife, and even though Kevin told us the relationship was over, she was very much under the impression it was not. So you got like both women saying kind of the same thing.

Crime Junkie

SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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So things were very rocky, especially as Diana's pregnancy went on and Kevin's abuse got worse. And friends tell police that at one point Diana actually asked them to help her move out. And when she did, she had a bruise over her right eye that extended down her cheek. But that same night that her friends helped her move her stuff so she could get out, she must have had a change of heart.

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She convinced herself that Kevin was going to change once the baby was born. So she went back to the apartment. But here's the wild part. When she goes back to the apartment that night, she found Kevin with his ex-wife. No way. Yes, and his ex told us that they were still legally married when Diana found her there. She was actually pregnant with Kevin's child around the same time that Diana was.

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SURVIVED: Dianna D'Aiello

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And she gave birth to a girl about a month before Diana was attacked. Now, according to an LA Times article by HG Reza, at some point in March of 1979, so this is when Diana was already pregnant, Kevin divorced his previous wife and then married Diana. Now, Kevin says he didn't abuse Diana, that the only time he ever laid a hand on her was when she came home and found his ex there.

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It's around 2 o'clock in the morning when a 19-year-old named Judy is startled awake by the sound of a voice calling her name. And it takes her a second to, like, get her bearings. Like, she even wonders if she is dreaming. But it sounds like her downstairs neighbor, 20-year-old Diana Green.

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He said that she had kicked him in the head as he was sleeping on the floor. He, like, jumped up. He didn't know it was her. He fought back. But that seems to be contradicted by his own words. Because in an episode of On the Case with Paula Zahn and in an episode of Forensic Files, he told those producers that at some point in her pregnancy, he had slapped Diana hard enough to leave bruises.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Brett. All right, you guys. This is a case that captivated the nation last year, like the kind of media circus you can't ignore. And even if you weren't a crime junkie, you knew about this case and you had an opinion about this case.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

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a cocktail straw, and pieces of glass that they believe came from that glass he was holding when he left the bar. They also find pieces of red and clear plastic consistent with Karen's taillight on Brian Albert's lawn. So two days later, on January 31st, an autopsy is performed on John and the medical examiner finds that John suffered a lot of injuries.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

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Now, he's got several abrasions on his right forearm, small cuts above his right eye and on the left side of his nose, a two inch laceration on the back of his head, multiple skull fractures that caused brain bleeding and two black eyes. Now, aside from the abrasions on his arm, from the neck down, he does not have a single broken bone or fracture.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1065.53

But ultimately, they find that he died of blunt force trauma and hypothermia. So Proctor looks at all of this evidence that police found, the taillight, the autopsy results, the way John was ejected from his shoe, the same way he's seen so many cases of vehicular homicides before.

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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1085.719

And it is his belief that all of it points right to Karen and the idea that she backed into John in her Lexus SUV and left him to die in the snow. So on February 1st, police arrest Karen at her home in Mansfield. She is arraigned the next day on charges of manslaughter, motor vehicle homicide, and leaving the scene of a deadly crash.

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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1108.69

When that happens, Karen retains attorney David Iannetti first, and local press catch him coming out of the courthouse, where he gives the public their first real insight into the case and what's to come. Karen's going to fight. He says she has no criminal intent and that she loved John and she is innocent.

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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1125.902

Karen was let out on a $50,000 bail that day, and Yannetti started to prepare what at first felt like a pretty straightforward defense. But then, on February 2nd, Yannetti gets this very strange call from an anonymous tipster that takes this seemingly straightforward case and transforms it into one of the biggest conspiracy cases I have ever come across.

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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1153.726

According to Boston Magazine, on this call, this anonymous tipster says something to the effect of your client is innocent. John was beaten up by Brian Albert and his nephew. They broke his nose. And when O'Keefe didn't come to, Brian and a federal agent dumped his body on the front lawn.

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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1175.706

So the federal agent is someone they were out with drinking at the bars that night, someone that went back to their place, too. Now, to be fair, we don't know for sure this is who the anonymous tipster was talking about. But like the federal agent we know was at the house that night was Brian Higgins, which I'm sure is a name you're familiar with.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1192.284

But he's an ATF agent, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. And he's going to become central to this story. It's why you know his name. And he's actually one of the only people who knew Karen really well in that group. But back to this call. So this tipster ends up recanting everything he said. Apparently, police track him down.

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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1210.512

And when they interview him, he says, like, J.K., none of it's true. But his tip has already gotten Karen's wheels turning. She says in an interview with Nightline that after the tipster came forward, she went on Facebook and started finding photos of the police who were investigating the case with people who were in the Alberts' house that night.

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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1231.325

Now, it's unclear what exact photos she is talking about in that interview, but we know now that Michael Proctor is in multiple social media posts with members of the Albert family. So she starts to wonder if all of these people are connected and if she's being framed in some sort of cover up for something they did. And if that's the case, she knows that she needs a top notch defense team.

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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1255.301

So in September, she sends an email in which she says, quote, I am fighting for my life against a blue wall. And that email goes to Alan Jackson. Not Alan Jackson, the country singer.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1268.286

Was my first thought.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1269.848

This is a high profile defense attorney from Los Angeles. And this idea that she's putting forward, this catches his attention. Now, he has a couple of follow up questions, but it doesn't take much. He's in. And no one's been able to say why exactly this next thing happens for sure.

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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1287.354

Is it because Karen seemed to be gearing up for a fight and they were hoping to intimidate her, push her into a deal? Or was it just because they continued digging and felt like the circumstances of the case had changed? You tell me.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1302.461

But by June 2022, a grand jury had indicted Karen on upgraded charges of second-degree murder, manslaughter while operating under the influence of alcohol, and leaving the scene of personal injury or death. Karen again pleads not guilty and posts bail again. This time, it's $100,000. And this is really when the madness begins. Not when this thing goes to trial. No, no, no.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1329.034

That is not happening for two more years at this point. The pretrial hearings and what played out on the internet was a spectacle on its own. Enough so that we all knew what each side's case was before even going to trial or before the first witnesses ever even took the stand. I mean, we already knew the prosecution side, right?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1348.359

Though they do fill in the story a little more with details along the way. Basically, they say that John and Karen's relationship was on its way out. John's niece had even heard him say as much, like his relationship with Karen had, like, run its course. And the day they all went out, John seemed pretty fed up with her. In one text, he told her he was tired of arguing all the time.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1375.473

But, I mean, we know they also met up at the bar, and he was trying to convince her to stay over for the weekend. So, like, talk about mixed signals. Yeah. But it seems like Karen might have had one leg out the door too because she was texting another guy. And not just any other guy, that ATF agent, Brian Higgins.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1393.606

They had been pretty flirty over texts, even shared a kiss pretty recently at John's house when Karen walked Brian Higgins to the door. And listen, new fear unlocked. When this thing does get to trial, Brian has to take the stand and read these texts out loud. under the fluorescent lights of the courtroom, streamed on court TV.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1417.364

And I have never suffered from secondhand embarrassment the way I did watching that day of trial. And I need everyone to know exactly what I mean.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1455.078

So relationship status, complicated. For sure. Now, even though everyone at the bar said that the couple seemed fine, the theory is that they began fighting about something in the car. So that by the time John gets out of Karen's SUV, Karen is pissed. Exhibit A, her voicemails. Is that the real reason she didn't get out and go with him? I don't know.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1482.578

It's hard for anyone to know why Karen didn't get out because Karen's own story about why she didn't get out has changed over time. More proof to the prosecution that she's lying. Like at one point she says, oh, she didn't get out because she had a stomach ache. And then at another point she says it's because she didn't know if she and John were actually invited.

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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1504.032

So she sent him in to kind of like suss out the vibe. Either way, she doesn't go in. Instead, the prosecution alleges that John got out of the car and when he did, Karen intentionally backed up into him, which they say is proven by a few things. One, I mean, first and foremost, everyone in the Albert home says that John never came inside. Hard stop.

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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1528.137

Two, there are no footprints in the snow leading from the Alberts' house to John's body, so it seems like no one from the house walked anywhere near where John was found.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1544.239

I don't think so. It's just like pointed out. So I felt like I had to throw it in here. But like, no, I don't know. Number three, we have some SUV data. So they have data from Karen's SUV that shows she backed up for 60 feet driving 24 miles per hour that morning. But the vehicle's data doesn't specify exactly what time.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1565.595

Now, number four, they've got surveillance video that shows John leaving the bar, like I said earlier, with a glass in his hand. And they say that they find that glass shattered next to his body on the lawn. So they think that he was holding it when she backed up into him.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

157.835

On January 28th, 41-year-old Karen Reed met up with her 46-year-old boyfriend of two years, John O'Keefe. They met at this bar in Canton, Massachusetts called C.F. McCarthy's.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1580.999

And then, of course, number five, which is like the prosecution's clincher, you have her broken taillight found in the snow, which they reconfigure back together to show it was hers. And the prosecution says that they even find pieces of plastic from the taillight, like somewhere within his clothing. And there's like debate about like where in the clothing or whatever. But like, does it matter?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1601.197

I don't know, because they say they found DNA, John's DNA, on the taillight. The sixth thing they point to is they've got a hair on the back of Karen's car that when tested is found to be consistent with John's DNA. And then finally, they have the autopsy. He suffers blunt force trauma after, as the prosecution says, being hit by Karen's car.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1628.17

And then she drives away, leaving him to get hypothermia and die because no one knows he's out there. Pretty cut and dry, right? Yeah, if only. I know. So in one of the early pretrial hearings, Karen's defense attorney, Alan Jackson, announces how he's going to defend Karen by exposing a cover-up and a far-reaching conspiracy to frame Karen.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1655.35

And just to be clear, when I say conspiracy, I mean, we are talking about the legal definition of a conspiracy. One or more people conspiring with one another to carry out a criminal act. And man, whether it is truth or just a combination of very bad police work and coincidence, what comes out is mind-blowing. So I need to address the turtle in the room.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

167.862

Now, surveillance video shows Karen walking in, greeting John at 8.51 p.m., and they're drinking there for about two hours until they walk over to another nearby bar, The Waterfall, where they meet up with a group of people that John knew, some of whom Karen knows-ish. But some of them were law enforcement, just like John, who is a Boston cop.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1681.351

So there is this blogger who goes by the handle Turtle Boy. Real name, Aiden Carney. And don't worry, if you don't like calling him Turtle Boy, he is given an alternate option, dubbing himself Journalism Jesus. So do with that what you will. But basically, this guy covers what he calls anti-establishment news. Now, he's from the area, so he hears about Karen's story.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

17.256

And I touched on it briefly in my SiriusXM show, but I never did a proper crime junkie deep dive because as we were getting into it, it was going to trial. And I thought, like, OK, things are going to wrap up. We're going to have a conclusion. Right. I have never been so wrong.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1705.5

And I didn't know at first like how he really like latches on to this. But again, I just watched the doc this morning and I found out it's actually someone from Karen's like family, friends, team, whatever, actually reached out to him. They had like followed him, liked what he did and was like, hey, you should pay attention to this. They're the ones that actually point him in this direction.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1725.265

And he like fully leans in. He is fully bought into the conspiracy and it basically becomes his whole personality as seen from his website. And for better or worse, he is a really big reason why this case took off as much as it did. Somehow this guy was coming out with a ton of insider information on the case. Well, turns out somehow sometimes it was because Karen was leaking stuff to him.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1751.428

Like there was a state police affidavit that reveals that over the course of a few months in 2023, Karen spent like 40 hours on the phone with him, allegedly feeding him confidential information. And listen, I'm all about independent journalism and alternatives to mainstream news.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1766.942

But he did a lot of things that rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, which is why he has been such a polarizing presence in this case. Like, for example, he showed up at Jen McCabe's kids' soccer game and recorded himself asking her inflammatory questions.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1784.499

And his so-called turtle riders did a rolling rally where they went house to house in a caravan of cars using a bullhorn and shouting about their cover-up allegations outside witnesses' homes. Which, to be clear, like those people have never been charged.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1800.604

And at this point, they were all considered witnesses in the case, which is why he ends up getting charged with witness intimidation down the line. And this group's protests are popping up all over, even out of state. But there is nowhere that they are more intense than right outside of the courthouse during trial. I mean, it is wild.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1822.554

Turtle Boy and his fans go in hard on the free Karen Reid movement. They're wearing Turtle Boy branded FKR merch and holding rallies outside the courthouse, like to the point. that the judge has to put up a 200-foot buffer zone.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1836.859

And on that documentary on HBO, someone had said that, like, I don't know if this is true or not, but they claimed that the jurors could actually, like, hear them, like, chanting free Karen Reid while they were trying to deliberate. Like, I don't remember, like, even if you didn't watch every minute of trial like I did, like, this was all over the news. It was a madhouse.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1857.639

And our reporter spoke with one of John's closest friends, and he told us that free Karen Reid protesters were actually calling people cop killers on their way into court. And a bunch of officers and John's friends had to escort John's mom into the courthouse.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1872.978

Like, this guy we're talking to is a Marine veteran, and he said the scene outside the courthouse reminded him of being in a combat zone in Iraq. And the chaos of all of this made everything worse. 10 times harder for John's grieving family.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

188.2

Now, everyone's having a good time, like mingling, talking. No one person standing out more than another. Video from that night shows that Karen was throwing back drinks. At one point in the night, she actually seemed to be like ordering shots and then pouring them into her mixed drink, I guess to like make them stronger. Actually, I just watched the documentary that came out on HBO.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1887.092

And I was just trying to rewatch some footage to like really like wrap my mind around what was happening, like a reminder almost, because it does feel like forever ago at this point. And it was wild the way that, you know, you see this, like we saw this with OJ, the way that people like wrap themselves around this and can get so, like you forget why we're all here and how tragic this is.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1911.171

They're like tailgating this And people were outside on lawn chairs, like watching it and chanting. And it has become something so much bigger than the reason we're here. And the reason we're here is getting lost. So you can understand why state officials don't give much credence to this blogger.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1931

And I say blogger, I know he says journalist, but there is a difference between like anything he hears just goes up online. Like the vetting process doesn't seem to be there. And it's also no surprise, really, that the prosecution thinks that the defense's idea of a conspiracy is bonkers. I mean, the Norfolk D.A.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1949.711

Michael Morrissey makes a bold move and even issues a video statement saying that there's a reason people are tried in court and not on the Internet, which is like that I agree with. But he also uses this video as an opportunity to defend the one and only Michael Proctor.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

1982.233

Well, not so fast, my guy. Internal Affairs isn't so confident in how he's handled this case. They end up opening an investigation into Proctor's conduct. And it turns out someone else is looking into his conduct, too. While everyone is so busy saying the cover-up theory is outlandish and some scheme cooked up by the not-country singer Alan Jackson...

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

2008.966

In comes an unprecedented, and I do not use that word lightly, unprecedented bombshell. While attorneys are getting ready to call witnesses for the trial, someone else is reaching out to those same witnesses, the FBI. That's right, the feds are getting involved. And they have their own case that ends up kind of giving the defense a leg up.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

2034.593

Because all of a sudden, they've got access to like 3,000 pages of documents that the feds have collected in their investigation about this stuff. And it's like almost every suspicion the defense has had gets confirmed and some. And like... I don't even know where to start, but like high level, the defense's theory is that Karen and John drove to the Alberts' house. John goes in, Karen leaves.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

2063.188

There's some kind of altercation in the house, specifically involving John, Brian Higgins, Brian Albert, and Brian Albert's nephew, Colin Albert. Now, they think there was some kind of altercation in the basement of the home, and then they put him out in the front lawn where he died. And if you believe this theory and everything that's to come, they knew he was going to die.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

208.776

She says like it was a drink she didn't like. And so she got a shot and was pouring it in there. I don't know. Either way, shots and drinks. And listen, it's not like everyone else is sober. This is a group that can put a few back. And no one is ready to call it quits around midnight when the bar is closing.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

2089.459

But let me really break it down. So here is the defense for Karen Reed. So they say that even if Karen and John were fighting earlier that day, they're fine by the time they get to the first bar. The people who were with them even testified that they seemed like they were getting along. So Karen and John meet up with everyone else at the waterfall. They get invited back to the Alberts' house.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

2110.853

Now, when they get there, by, like, the time of trial and stuff, the defense is going with Karen's later story, that she just didn't know if they were really invited or welcome. So she waits in the car while John goes in for a vibe check. She doesn't see him go in. Like, she doesn't actually watch him go in the door. But he gets out of the car. She assumes he goes in. Right.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

2129.121

But then he doesn't come back out. And she gets pissed off. Thank you.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

2184.747

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. . . . . .,,,,, P P P P P P實 , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , a Laboratory a ,,,,,,

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

224.065

Despite the fact that it is already snowing and New England is about to get walloped by a Nor'easter. John even still has a cocktail glass in his hand when he leaves the bar with Karen. And they move the party over to a house about five minutes away at 34 Fairview Road. Becomes infamous at some point.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

242.794

Now, the house belongs to a couple in the group, this other Boston cop and his wife, so Brian and Nicole Albert. Now, it was their son, Brian Jr. 's 23rd birthday, and I guess Brian and Nicole basically invited everyone back to their house to join whatever party he was having.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

258.519

Now, despite the copious amounts of alcohol that has been consumed, Karen climbs behind the wheel of her Lexus, John in the passenger seat, because she's going to drive them over. Now, John didn't know Brian Albert super well, but he did know someone else in the group well, a woman named Jen McCabe. And she is actually sisters with Brian's wife, Nicole Albert, who owns the house.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

280.568

So John and Jen exchange calls and texts along the way. It's now shortly after midnight, January 29th. At 12.14, John texts Jen McCabe, where to? And then less than a minute later, she calls John back. And they have this like 44-second conversation, presumably like giving, getting directions. Four minutes after that, at 12.18, John calls Jen for 36 seconds.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

2891.525

Lucky says that when he first passes the Alberts' house at 2.45 a.m., there's no vehicle parked out front. But then when he comes back, like 30 or 40 minutes later, he sees a Ford Edge parked on the street right in front of where John's body was found. Now, this is relevant because the Alberts say that no one else was at their house that night after everyone left the party.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

2914.278

So if this is true, whose car was that? Now, there's a pretty quiet couple of hours between like 2.30 and 4.30 in the morning where there's no phone activity. 4.30 is when Karen wakes up John's niece. She asks her to call Jen because she didn't have her number. And then she eventually calls Jen directly and that's made at 4.53. And after that, Jen does try to call John at least once at 5.04.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

2941.07

And some of those calls after that were part of the bunch that Jen deleted. Now, why is Jen calling? The simple explanation is that she just got news that her friend is missing and she's trying to reach him.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

2957.479

Yeah. So the defense, who believes that she searched how long to die in cold at 2.27, they think she knows exactly where her friend is and maybe she was doing it because she wanted to make it look like she was concerned. Then again, I ask, like, why delete the calls?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

2981.077

I heard that, too. But then, like, why stop calling from 1250 or, like, whatever her last call was till 5 a.m.? Like, it doesn't totally add up for me. But, like, you'll see nothing in this story totally adds up. Right. Okay, so Karen calls Jen again at 5.05, but doesn't get through. Jen calls her right back. They talk for 43 seconds, presumably making plans to meet up to look for John.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3004.334

Both of those call logs are also deleted by Jen. And apparently on that deleted call, Jen and Karen agree that Karen will go pick her up. So Karen gets into her SUV, which was parked in John's garage, and his home security system catches her on surveillance backing out at 5.07 a.m. Now, John's SUV is in the driveway. And as she is backing out, his car moves ever so slightly.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3032.687

I mean, like, you gotta zoom, don't blink. But it's right as Karen's car would be getting close to his. And if Karen's car hit John's, it would have been her right side taillight that hit it. The same right side taillight that police allege she hit John with so hard that it was cracked and left behind at the Alberts' house. Was it already cracked before she ever even pulled into the garage?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

304.076

Likely he's like getting some clarifying directions or whatever. Because by this point, everyone is starting to arrive at the house. And like Jen is expecting John and Karen too. But they don't come rolling into the house after everyone. So Jen goes to the window and looks out. She actually sees a dark SUV that might be Karen's. So she texts John at 1227. Here?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3057.055

Would love to tell you, but there's no video footage from John's ring camera showing Karen pulling into John's garage that night. Why is there no video, you may ask? Because the footage is missing. How? Another tech question that somehow there is no answer to. The prosecution has insinuated that Karen deleted that part of the video from the Ring app sometime like the day of John's death.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3085.243

Though there is no data backing this up. They just like pose this hypothetically. While the defense alleges that investigators deleted it before handing the video over to them. Also no proof of that. Cool. So whatever, okay, no problem, there's probably more footage, right? Somewhere along her drive home?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3104.213

All we have to do is show the taillight is cracked before she gets to John's that morning and there is no debating this, like case over. Well, they found a camera on a local library that would have been on the exact route she took to John's house. It would have shown the right side taillight and everything.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3124.418

And police even collected it in time to get the footage from the time Karen would have been driving by on the 29th. But? But when that footage was turned over to the defense, it's missing a crucial two-minute window that would have shown Karen's car after leaving the Alberts. Now, the prosecution says, well, that's just what we got. And we just turned it over how it was turned over to us.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3162.161

That's what they're telling us. So back to our timeline. Karen pulls out at 5.07 to go looking for John on her own for like 20 minutes before she goes to meet with Jen and Carrie. And I think like there's even video of her car like going in the direction of the waterfall bar, which is like confusing to me because she leaves him. Not there. Not there. What are you looking for there?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3184.396

Do you think that he could have gone back there? And it's really interesting because there is this moment in the trial where the first trial where Jen McCabe is on the stand and she even says that in one of her like first conversations with Karen, she's asking her like what happened or whatever. And Karen's like, oh, I like I left him at the Waterfall Bar. And Jen's like, no, you didn't.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

32.443

The trial of Karen Reid for the murder of John O'Keefe was a six-week spectacle that had more twists and turns in theatrics than most legal dramas on TV. And it all ended with a mistrial. So it's happening again. Now, last time, I quite literally watched every minute of every day at trial because this is a case where you have to know every detail to talk confidently about what happened.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3204.143

Like we left together. We saw you outside of my sister's house. So I don't know if that is like what Karen believed. Like all of her stories now are she like remembers going, remembers him going in there. So like was she making up a story? Does she not remember in the early days? Is everything a blur? Like is everyone drinking so much that no one knows what's going on? I don't know.

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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3227.435

But she goes looking for 20 minutes, at least like in the, we've got her going in the direction of the waterfall, but then she like makes it back to Jen where they meet up. Jen, meanwhile, in this time, tries calling John's phone a few more times. 508, 509, both deleted later. From 514 to 532, there are a bunch of calls between Karen's phone and Jen's phone and Jen to John's phone.

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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3251.686

Those all get deleted as well in Jen's call log. And Karen also tries to call John a few more times. By 546, the three women are at John's house, still trying to call his cell with no luck. And so they all head out at 552. They get to the Alberts, and at 6.04, Jen makes the call to 911.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

326.086

When he hasn't replied two minutes later, she calls him again. John answers the call. It's a quick eight seconds, and then he hangs up. But he still hasn't come in. At 1231, Jen texts John. Hello? At 1240, she texts him again, pull behind me. At 1241, John gets two missed calls from Jen, and Jen texts, where are you? 1243, John gets a missed call from Jen. 1245, Jen texts John, hello.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3271.032

Now, first responders get to the scene fast, and this is when some of them say that they allegedly heard Karen say, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him, or like some variation of that. But interestingly, the defense makes a big point in court to show that nobody put any of this in their reports from that day. Not the police, not the paramedics.

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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3294.861

This confession that everyone remembers so vividly only gets spoken about later. Which does feel odd that, like, nobody mentions a confession of any kind. They're not arresting her for admitting that she hit him. Well, and if it's not in any notes, it's

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3321.503

They're like, this isn't like just like a small detail. You have someone confessing to the crime. How does that not make it into any report? And they're just like, I didn't think it was relevant or like there's a zillion reasons why they say they didn't put it in. But like they swear on the stand it happened. But the defense is like, did it? Now, the defense says Karen never said that at all.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3341.436

When Karen talks to 2020, she says it was preceded by did and was a question. Did I hit him? But I'm like getting confused about this to begin with, because this seems like one of the things like she has admitted to, like she admits on 2020, even in the beginning of this HBO doc, like she talks about it.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3359.813

But then towards the end of the doc, like I got all twisted or I think she's all twisted because she's like, you know, I wonder if if I even said that. Like it's been so many people's stories. And, you know, I so much was going on. It was so chaotic. Like maybe I just kind of I don't know if these words are her words exactly, but like internalized it and made that my story.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3377.084

So I'm like, wait, we all agreed that you asked, did I hit him? And now we're trying to say we're talking about if the words even came out of your mouth at all. Yeah. I don't know. You have to watch it. I don't know what to make of it.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3399.125

She suggests a plow, which is, like, ultra-specific. Yeah, to me... Like, that's not where my head would go. I'd be like, oh, he passed out at the place that I left him.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3409.351

Yeah. Like, she says when she's asked about this, like, she just knows that there's no world he would not come home to his niece and his nephew because she specifically, like, made the threat, I'm not coming home. And she knows he's responsible and, like, wouldn't leave them. So she says, like, if he didn't come home, it has to mean something terrible happened.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3432.521

It doesn't make sense. But again, back to our timeline. Jen makes some additional calls that don't make a lot of sense with the story we've been told. And then she makes two searches at 623. How long does it take to digest food, which was like I think an auto populated search as she's trying to type how long to die. And then it like da da da da. And then she has one that's like how long T.I.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3458.867

die and kicked like again, they're all typos. It's freezing and she's trying to type. But the question is the same. But neither of those searches are Haas longed to die in cold. Which is important here. I think so, but whatever. So they're out on her sister's lawn with her friend dead on the ground. At this point, it makes sense to notify the people inside the house, right? Yeah.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3483.729

So she calls her sister, Nicole Albert, at 607 and 608. Both calls are answered, but only last a few seconds. Both are deleted from Jen's phone log. And this is interesting because Brian and Nicole never come out of the house, like the whole time, ever. And according to all their statements, they were supposed to have been asleep until Jen came into their room to wake them up at 6.35 a.m.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3509.183

So who's answering the calls at 6.07 and 6.08? Jen says it's just all wrong and those calls weren't answered. Wait, they were or weren't? Jen says they weren't. The data says they were. Pick your favorite. Okay. I know. Even after they were awake, though, like I reiterate, they never came out. They never came out even after we know they were awake. Right.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3531.504

And like some say that they didn't want to be in the way. I mean, Brian is an officer himself, right? Like better to stay put. Let police come to you. Except they like don't. I mean, it's Canton PD that is called to the scene that morning. And Sergeant Michael Lank is one of the first guys there. And he finally goes to talk to the Alberts after Jen McCabe wakes them up.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3551.357

Like, I don't even know if you could call what he does an interview because he talks to them for a few minutes with Jen there. He doesn't record any of it and he doesn't do any kind of search of the house. According to Lang's report, he talks to Jen again at 9 a.m. when she calls him back and is like, hey, by the way, I forgot to mention that I heard Karen say she hopes she didn't hit John.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

357.182

1246, missed call from Jen to John. 1247, missed call from Jen again. 1250, missed call from Jen. Now, no one but the people who lived this story knows what happened next. But there are a few things that we do know for certain. We know that John got out of Karen's car. And Karen's car data shows that she put her car in reverse and backed up at some point.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3575.568

If you ask Jen, though, she called him back over to say, hey, I actually heard Karen say I hit him, I hit him, I hit him. Either way, everyone's doing this at 9 a.m.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3587.093

Like, this feels extra critical. I know, I know. And again, I go back to there is a lot going on. It feels like something I would remember. I have never been in this scenario. True. Now, fun fact I haven't mentioned. You might already know this. A lot of people might know this. But Brian Albert's brother, Kevin Albert, is on the Canton PD force.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3607.643

But if that wasn't already a conflict of interest, Lank, who was one of the first people on the scene, has his own deep ties to the family. In 2002, when he was off duty, he allegedly got into a fight with two other people that Brian's other brother, Chris Albert, was having problems with. And Chris Albert, by the way, is Colin Albert's dad.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3626.327

So, like, these are all the same people we're talking about. So, like, Lank knows this family. But they do eventually recognize there might be some conflict, so they recuse themselves. but also still help out. And this is when they call in the state police. So enter Michael Proctor, who we covered at the top. And he has his own lengthy list of conflicts of interest.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3648.745

But like I said, Canton's still being a pal. So even though the state police barracks are closer, when Karen's car gets seized that day, it is actually taken to Canton PD's sally port. Apparently, police say there was like more room there. It had heating, whatever. They have pics. It all adds up nicely. Pieces of the taillight missing from the SUV match pieces of the taillight in the snow by John.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3670.555

It's, remember, the prosecution's proof. But we also have the defense saying that she hid her taillight in John's driveway. And what Karen told everyone was that she had a broken taillight, not like a fully busted taillight. And all the video footage that could or should show that this is true doesn't exist. It's gone. Oh, darn. Well, that's OK.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3691.753

Police say we have a video of when we process the car in the sally port of Canton PD. You'll see that we never even go close to the taillight. So we didn't like break it and plant evidence, which is fully the defense theory, by the way. that the taillight evidence wasn't found at the scene at the time of John's body.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3710.844

They don't find it until like 5.30 or 6 that night when like an emergency response team comes to help with the search. Like there's a little bit of conflicting reports on like what time they find the taillight. But the first crime scene photos documenting pieces of it in the snow show that it's clearly dark outside. And this is like January, New England.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3727.921

So like the sun sets around like 4.55 that day. But it takes kind of a long time before more pieces are found and they are found over the course of like the next few days. So the defense theorizes that the reason they didn't find it earlier is that they had to wait until they had Karen's car in their possession to get the taillight pieces and then plant them.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3747.361

So the defense has always thought it was planted. But again, police are like, oh, my God, you guys are being like so dramatic. Look for yourselves. They even play the video in court to show that no one ever goes near the right taillight.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3761.966

Except in the actual most dramatic, oh my God, moment I've ever seen in like a real life trial, the defense team notices that the writing on one of the cars in frame, it's not even Karen's car, it's like this one that no one's paying attention to. The writing is backwards, which means that the entire video has been like flipped. Oh, like mirrored. Inverted. Yeah. Yeah.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3786.756

So when it appears that Proctor is seen standing behind Karen's left taillight. It's actually the right taillight. It's the right taillight. Oh, my God. Now, the problem still is you can't see what he's doing because the camera is on the other side. And there is a camera that would show what he's doing over there. Don't tell me the video is missing. part of the video is missing. Of course it is.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3808.892

But here's the thing. Why would Michael Proctor frame someone? Sure, he notes the Alberts, but like, he doesn't know Karen. That's a huge leap. He wouldn't have anything against her. Hmm. Like, he shouldn't have anything against her. Yet that federal investigation found some legit terrible conduct on his behalf in relation to Karen.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

383.03

Then she drove off, eventually ending up at John's place for the night.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3831.408

And the stuff that they found was like just the stuff he put in writing. Like he had texts with his sister talking about the case very early on. And in one, he said that he hopes Karen would die by suicide. And he wasn't just talking to his family. Here is Michael Proctor reading texts that he sent about Karen and Brian Albert to a group chat that he had with his high school buddies.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3855.244

And he's reading it here on The Stamped.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3864.375

And here he is reading a text that he sent to his bosses while supposedly searching Karen's phone for evidence.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3882.685

Alan Jackson hammers Proctor over these texts, which were sent well before Karen's been charged, by the way. And they are the worst. This guy is the worst. And I think we all should be making a big deal about these text messages from a law enforcement official who has got the lives of people literally in his hands.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3902.979

But for me, personally, I did have to roll my eyes a little bit for one reason in particular. The person who was lecturing Proctor about the way he viewed women, the way he viewed Karen Reid, was maybe not the right person to stand on that soapbox.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3923.895

Like, I think maybe Alan Jackson should have, like, left that part to his co-counsel, Yannetti, or even, like, there were other, like, lawyers that were working with them, too. Because it was a little hard for me to really buy his outrage and disgust when it wasn't all that long ago that Alan Jackson was defending Harvey Weinstein. Right. Right.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3940.918

So, like, tip for trial number two, maybe leave the grandstanding to someone who hasn't been on the wrong side of history when it comes to the Me Too movement. I don't know. What do I know? I'm a podcaster. Still, Proctor defends his investigation. He calls his texts juvenile and regrettable, but says that they didn't have any impact on how he investigated John's death.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

395.037

Well, not the whole night, but, like, after she left, like, most certainly. Yeah. And I actually want to play some of them for those who don't know what we're talking about.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3962.807

But Proctor's own texts implied that he didn't really look at anything objectively. I mean, when a friend asked him if the homeowner, meaning Brian Albert, will, quote, receive some shit, Proctor responded, nope, homeowner is a Boston cop too. And only 17 hours into his investigation, when one of Proctor's friends text him, she's fucked, right? He replied, correct.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

3987.366

But Proctor testifies that he meant the, quote, overwhelming amount of evidence, end quote, already showed by then that Karen hit John. Proctor's texts weren't the only thing Jackson called into question. Proctor had testified under oath that he didn't know any members of the Albert or McCabe families.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4005.274

But when Jackson asked him directly, Proctor admits that the Alberts have been over to his parents' house before and that he's even been at his parents' house when the Alberts were there. Oh, and just fun fact, Colin Albert was once the ring bearer in Proctor's sister's wedding. Oh. Yeah, and again, like, it goes deep.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4022.843

Proctor even asked Brian Albert's sister-in-law, Julie, to babysit his son as recently as 10 days before John died. So, like, they are clearly more than just even acquaintances. Like, you're trusting with your kid. They're kind of, like, just in the same circle. I know. And even after that, Julie and the Proctors, like,

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4040.191

keep talking so like it gets kind of weird three days after John died there are texts between Proctor and his wife in which his wife says that she just ran into Julie and she writes quote Julie said when all this is over she wants to give you dot dot dot a thank you gift and apparently Proctor responded that the gift should be sent to his wife and not him

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4063.041

So that is who is doing the investigation. And the people who collected all the evidence that they wanted to use to prove this case that this investigator is making, honestly, they didn't do much better. This part is less conspiracy and more just sloppy. To get to John and all the evidence, they used a leaf blower. I'm sorry, what leaf blower?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4085.265

Yeah, they used it to like blow off all the fresh snow and get down to like the layer like they presumed it was all on the ground. I don't know where John died, which like, yes, I get it. But no, I don't. And it's on the ground where they find all those clear pieces of glass, which they later assume is from that cocktail glass that he walked out of the bar holding.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4103.718

They also find some like blood in the snow. Obviously, they want to collect all of this as evidence, right? Like, oh, no, they don't have any evidence bags. So for some reason, they go knocking on a neighbor's door, not even the door of the homeowner whose lawn they are on, who let me remind you is a cop. No, they just go knocking on some random neighbor's door.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4123.983

And apparently they ask if they have anything they can use to collect evidence. And that neighbor gives them a like sealed package of Red Solo cups that they start using to like scoop everything up in. Like Red Solo cups, like beer pong cups. Fully. But like, don't worry.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4138.954

Once the evidence is in those cups, they store the cups super securely because they put them inside a brown paper grocery bag from a stop and shop. Wonderful. Yeah, I know. And so while we're on the topic, though, of evidence, let's talk the autopsy. So just a reminder from earlier. So the medical examiner found that John suffered a lot of injuries.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4156.729

We have several abrasions on his right forearm, cuts to the left side of his nose and above his right eye, two inch laceration on the back of his head, multiple skull fractures that caused bleeding in his brain, two black eyes. Now, he has those injuries on his arm, but he doesn't have any broken bones or fractures from the neck down.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4175.699

And the ruling was that he died of blunt impact injuries to his head and hypothermia.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4189.57

Well, at the time, the prosecution, or at least in the first trial, was, like, I think arguing that Karen hit him This sent him like flying back and he maybe hit his head on the ground. Like that is what would cause the gash on the back of his head.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4203.037

In the documentary, I've seen some other people, not the prosecution specifically, but other people saying like another theory could be that like she hit him, the taillight breaks and like that caused a like abrasion in his arm. And then he's like disoriented and moves around and then falls.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4217.901

So I don't know what we're going to hear in the second trial, if that's going to play into it or if they're going to stick with what they did the first time. But the defense says that the reason it doesn't look like other cases where a person was hit by a vehicle was because he wasn't hit by a vehicle.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

422.902

So she's mad. She is also firing off texts at this point, telling John that she's going back to her house in Mansfield. She's leaving his niece and nephew home alone. Now, John's niece and nephew both actually live with him because he took them in after his sister and his brother-in-law both died in short succession of one another.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4233.174

Some of their last witnesses that the defense calls are crash reconstruction experts who will honestly become a very hot topic down the road here. These experts had been part of the federal investigation and they were presented at the time as impartial witnesses in this case, meaning they said on the stand that they weren't paid by the defense for their testimony.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4252.648

It was completely like unbiased, right? So these experts testify that John's injuries were not consistent with being hit by a vehicle. The defense argues that John's head injury and black eyes come from some sort of fight and that the marks on his arm weren't caused by being hit by a car at all. Dog bites. The dog bites, yes.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4274.082

According to another of their witnesses, an expert in emergency trauma, the injuries on John's arm, they say, are likely teeth or claw marks. In their opinion, John had likely been mauled by an animal, possibly a large dog. Which the Alberts had a German Shepherd mix. Right, Chloe.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4291.846

So Jackson argues that at some point that night, before, during, or after whatever altercation happened at the Alberts' house, Chloe, the dog, attacked him.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4313.116

So the Alberts say that they didn't rehome Chloe until four months after all of this, though. And not because of anything related to John, they say. They said that they sent Chloe to live in Vermont because she had gone after, like, another neighborhood dog or multiple neighborhood dogs.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4327.421

And I think it's worth noting that, like, apparently lab techs did not find any canine DNA on swabs from John's sweatshirt, which had tears through it in the spots, like the same spots as the arm touch. Which, like, you know if, like, a dog is, like, coming at you, their slobbery is all get out. Right. So that doesn't really help the dog by argument. But they did find pig DNA? Yeah.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4350.234

So experts who testify at trial say that that could have come from a food product, like maybe a pork-based dog treat.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4374.806

Oh, interesting. Interesting.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4388.091

Nicole says, Nicole Albert says that they had planned to move long before John's death and they had reached out to a realtor in like 2021. And then the sale was finalized in 23. So, again, like weird coincidence, they say. And I don't know what to make of that. There's a lot of things I don't know what to make of. Right.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4405.059

So like the federal investigation, I think that we can like label this like area of episode stuff I think is weird, but didn't know where to fit in the episode. Question marks.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

441.846

And listen, she's not actually going to end up leaving them alone, but this is what she's threatening to do. So she stays at John's and eventually falls asleep on the couch until about 4.30 in the morning when she wakes up in a panic. Now, it's Karen who alerts people in the morning that John never came home.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4413.564

So there's just like little bits of things I want to hit on at a high level. And I'll just give you like the bullet points because we got a trial to get to people and I don't want to keep you here till tomorrow. So here are some fast facts. One, the feds found out that Brian Albert destroyed his cell phone a day before he received a protective order to preserve that phone and its contents.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4434.98

Now, he says this is just a coincidence. He was due for an upgrade, so he traded it in. Okay, fine. Been there. Brian Higgins. The phone stuff is harder for me to digest. So... He apparently asked another federal agent for advice on extracting phone data. And then, months later, drove to a military base, disposed of his phone, and destroyed his SIM card.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4459.581

He claims this was because the target of an unrelated investigation had his contact info. Seems like you could maybe just, like, change your number and not destroy your phone on a military base that state officials couldn't get access to, but, like, whatever. Yeah.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4474.674

Now, obviously, at some point, this like flurry of texts and calls we had with everyone in this group like that they were doing during the first day, like stop. But the defense alleges that this group of conspirators was still in communication in the early days to coordinate and, quote, get their story straight. And they use one example in particular.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4495.076

So on the stand, Jen reiterates the big beats of the case that we've talked about already. But during her cross-examination, something new comes out. Jen says that on January 30th, so this is the day after John dies, she was with Carrie Roberts, who, reminder, she's the third woman who was there when John was found.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4513.965

Carrie and Jen go to drop Carrie's daughter off at a friend's house, a friend whose father is Canton PD Sergeant Michael Link, who testified about evidence collection at the scene. And apparently when Carrie and Jen go to the house, Link's wife came out to talk to Carrie and she got into the car with them and stayed in the car for an hour talking to them about John's death.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4536.246

So this isn't like a quick little chat? No, not at all. And Jackson points to that. Like, he says this is something that Jen never even mentioned until a pretrial meeting in the DA's office. Now, Jen claims that this is just a situation where two friends, Carrie and Lenk's wife, were talking about a traumatic event that just occurred.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4554.081

But the defense views this as another example of conversations that Jen and others were having in the aftermath of John's death, where they might have all been trying to, like, get on the same page. And I want you to remember the defense doesn't have to prove what happened, right? Like the burden of proof is fully on the Commonwealth.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4572.693

But I think that Karen and her team knew that they needed to put forward an alternate theory because her hitting John feels like the obvious answer to most people. So their theory, as I told you before, revolves around the allegation that some sort of fight ensued between Brian Albert, Brian Higgins, and Colin Albert. And at first, nobody says that Colin Albert was even at the house that night.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

458.538

Like, she first wakes up his niece asking her to call Jen McCabe because John didn't come home. She needs to find him, but she doesn't have Jen's number. And she's reported to have sounded panicked. And she was talking maybe about a fight that they'd gotten in.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4598.117

And there's no phone data putting him there at the house that night because investigators never collected his phone data. But eventually, he tells police that he was there earlier in the night, but he says that he never saw John. And here's another weird little ditty. Like, I told you from the get, prosecutors' theory is that John never entered the house, right?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4617.579

Like, that's been everyone's consistent story. Right. No one saw him after he left Karen's car. So here's this weird thing. So apparently when Brian Higgins testified before the federal grand jury, he said that he might have seen a tall, dark-haired man come into the Alberts' house. And John O'Keefe was a tall, dark haired man.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4636.836

So a lot of people think that Higgins was describing seeing John in the house that night, like just in case it comes up that he was there. So he didn't like lie in front of a grand jury. But later, when Higgins gets grilled about this on the stand, he says that he could have been talking about maybe the brother of somebody at the party when he said that. But anyways, back to Colin.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4656.966

At the time of John's death, Colin was still in high school. By the time it goes to trial, he's in college, and he comes to court to testify and says that he had gone to his Uncle Brian's house that night at around 10.30 or 11 to celebrate his cousin's birthday. He had a few beers, again, like Red Cop's house. He's in high school, like, not awesome, but whatever.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4676.176

He said he listened to some music, hung out, and then he texted a friend for a ride home, and he left around 12.30 a.m. That friend who picked him up was Jen McCabe's daughter, Allie McCabe. Allie says that she picked Colin up before any of the adults got back from the bar and that she was home from dropping him off by 1230.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4696.084

But Karen's lawyers have pulled data from the app Life360, which I don't know if you use that for your kids, but like I'm very familiar with it.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

471.268

And when she finally gets on the phone with Jen at 4.53 in the morning, Jen says she doesn't know where John is, but she will help Karen look for him. So Karen is going to meet Jen at Jen's place. And in the meantime, she calls another friend, Carrie Roberts. Carrie wasn't in the group that went out the night before. She's just a good friend of John's.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4710.876

And this app shows that Allie was driving around until like 1.30. Now, in court, she just offers like, well, maybe her excuse is like the data is off. She's like, I wasn't connected to Wi-Fi at the time.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4735.09

I know. This is what I'm saying about this case. Like you can make sense of like one or two things that are like wonky or like weird. But like all the footage can't be missing. All the data can't be wrong. Like all at the same time.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4756.136

I mean, they bring up those texts between Karen and Brian Higgins. They kind of suggest that maybe Brian Higgins might have felt like Karen was blowing him off that night. It got under his skin. Like, they've been having this flirtation over texts. They even kissed. Like, it felt like all of this was building to something. But then Karen shows up at the bar he's at with his friends with John.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4775.58

And then she doesn't pay much attention to Brian. Though, I mean, worth noting on the stand, when they asked Brian about all this, he's like, whatever. Like, yeah, we texted, but, like, no hard feelings. It wasn't serious. Like, I don't know. So maybe feelings are just, like, bubbling under the surface more than anything. And, again, I don't even think they're, like, thinking this is motive.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4791.673

Like, he was going after John. I think they're just trying to show some, like, animosity. Like, why would he maybe jump into something else that happened? Though they don't say that explicitly. They focus mostly on Colin as the possible, like—

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4804.884

catalyst to all of this and it's important to note that Colin had reportedly had issues with John in the past Colin's family lived near John and in the spring of 2020 John's security alarm went off and when he woke up and he went downstairs he found Colin and several other teenagers in his front yard and Colin yelled at John and like apparently had some choice words for him now John never called the police but Karen says that there was bad blood between Colin and John after that

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4834.085

Now, Colin says that they never had any beef, but it's the defense's position that Colin had a history of being a hothead and was part of an assault on John that happened inside the Albert house and that the Bryans then after this brought John out into the snow.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4852.446

And to like try and like form this picture, Jackson actually pulls up what he insinuates is proof that Colin threw some punches that night. He finds a photo of Colin out with his friends like weeks after John's murder, in which you can see that his knuckles are like red and raw. Now, Colin says that he had slipped on ice, which like everyone's like at the time.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4876.436

I remember when this like came up in trial, everyone's like, How do you when you fall like you fall down? I've never fallen knuckles first. Right. It doesn't make sense to me. I don't know. And I have a problem with this like alternative theory. Like we know that part of what contributed to John's death was hypothermia. And I know like a ton of people aren't on board with what I'm about to say.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4898.764

But like I have a hard time believing that a group of people. who were either friends with or like barely knew a guy, would like take him out to the snow to let him die if something else happened. But I also, like, don't get me wrong that I'm saying, like, I totally believe everything that they're saying. Because, like, I think it's very clear that people are lying.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

490.465

But Karen just wants more people to help look for him.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4923.354

So then the question to me, more than anything, is, like, what are you lying about?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4938.438

Yeah. I mean, I think everything they put forward about that, like a lot of stuff in this case, could go either way. Because what the data shows is that after 1220, around the time Karen says that she dropped him off, it says that John took 80 steps, which is like half a football field's distance, and then either went like up or down three floors. And that could be because he entered the house.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

496.73

Right. So on the phone with Carrie, she is so panicked that she's saying she thinks John is dead. So while Carrie makes her way to meet up with Jen and Karen, she is also calling like non-emergency police lines to ask if there's been any snowplow accident. She's calling local hospitals, but no one has any intel on John O'Keefe.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4962.617

The problem with that is GPS data from his phone apparently shows that he was in the car a half mile away from the Alberts' house when that movement was actually logged. Honestly, like, I probably should have known this already, but, like, I feel like tech isn't nearly as reliable as I thought it was for tracking stuff like this.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

4980.252

Like, this case has made it scary to me, and it's, like, almost like a beware ye future jurors, not just on this case, but, like, any.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

5002.886

I know.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

5004.307

I know. So, like, what does the data mean? How does it all come together? How does this puzzle fit?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

5009.93

fit if it does yeah because like i've spiraled every which way i can about this case like did he go into the house and something happened call it a fight call it an accident whatever and then maybe like did they tell him to like get out of here not realizing how bad off he was and then he collapsed in the snow But like that doesn't explain all of it.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

5028.799

Did Karen really hit him accidentally or otherwise? And then the investigation was super sloppy, maybe even corrupt. Proctor trying to make like an easy win and then everything else was about covering up the nonsense. But that also doesn't really explain everything. Nothing explains all of it.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

5047.26

One of the other pieces that I think is worth mentioning because it's huge when it comes to the prosecution's case is one of the things I brought up in evidence that they point to is the hair that they found on Karen's car that they said links to John. Right. Like this is proof that she hit John with her car. Right. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

514.898

Now, once all three women are back together, they drive back to John's. In that new documentary I told you I just watched, Karen says it was actually Jen's idea for them to go back and look, which didn't make sense to Karen, she said. But I don't know. Like, they didn't fully look. She said, I was there. He wasn't.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

5205.296

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And he was the kind of guy who never missed opening day at Fenway Park. John had been a Boston police officer for 16 years and was loyal to his fellow officers.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

531.302

But, like, I think Jen's probably thinking, like, he could just be passed out somewhere, right? So they go back to his house. They look around. He's nowhere to be found. So they head over to where Karen says she last saw him, outside of the Alberts' home.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

546.372

Now, at this point, it's around 6 a.m., snow is still coming down, they've all had very little sleep, and Karen is in a full-blown panic in the backseat. Presumably made even worse when Jen says they never saw John the night before. And Karen starts going on about how drunk she was the night before and that she doesn't remember anything and that her taillight on her SUV is cracked.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

571.947

And Jen and Carrie find themselves being asked by Karen, could I have hit him? Did I hit him? And when they near the Alberts' house, Karen begins literally like kicking at the door, shouting, there he is, he's right there. But Jen and Carrie can't see anything.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

5793.266

And he especially loved being an uncle to his niece and nephew. And he became their guardian after his sister died of brain cancer and then their father died of a heart attack. John's niece and nephew have been left to mourn another parent figure, and they're now being raised by John's parents, who, after the mistrial, filed a wrongful death lawsuit against Karen.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

5814.485

They also filed it against the Waterfall Bar and C.F. McCarthy's, seeking $50,000 in damages for pain, suffering, and emotional distress. But a judge has put all of that on hold until Karen's criminal trial is over.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

5828.297

At its core, this is a case that presents the question of whether a crack in an SUV taillight is cut and dry evidence of murder, or if it exposed a crack in the system, a system that was ripe for a cover-up that spanned agencies across Massachusetts.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

5844.861

Now, I've talked a lot about the details in this case and how those details have been interpreted by a million different people, a million different ways. I know there's a lot to process. I mean, even the actual jury on this case couldn't see a clear path forward. But I know us crime junkies always love to go a layer deeper. And so I want us to be locked in on this retrial together.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

5866.532

And that's happening here in the next couple of weeks. So I want to try something new this time. We just started a new Crime Junkie Jury page on YouTube where we are going to be streaming the trial and discussing what goes on every day with you. And you're going to have Brandi Churchwell there.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

5884.684

Like I said, she's like an expert in this case, watching along with you, explaining the things that are happening. So don't feel like you have to come in as an expert. This is your way to like get in and follow what's going on in real time. And you're not going to want to miss it because I have a feeling we're in for another,

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

590.325

I mean, they just see snow until Karen like launches herself out of the car and runs over to a spot in the Alberts' lawn, like near this flagpole they have, where sure enough, after like brushing away about six inches of fresh snow, they find John. And Karen throws herself on top of him and is like lifting up their shirts to try and exchange body heat, warming him up.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

5900.314

long ride you can find all the source material for this episode on our website crimejunkiepodcast.com and you can follow us on instagram at crime junkie podcast we'll be back next week with a brand new episode Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

60.261

And this time around, I want the crime junkies to join in as well. So I'm going to catch you up. I want to tell you everything we know about the death of John O'Keefe, everything we know about the prosecution's case against Karen Reed and her defense's rebuttal, so that you can be fully prepared for the second trial that's starting soon.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

613.173

She makes a comment in the new documentary that she like pulls a piece of glass out of his face, which like it's the first time she mentions this, by the way, but like pulls a piece of glass out and he's bleeding. And she's just freaking out trying to figure out what to do. And this is when Jen calls 911 at 6.04 in the morning.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

786.988

Okay, thank you. Now, I know that audio is a little hard to make out, but Karen is obviously panicking in the background. I mean, to the point that the dispatcher actually asked who he can hear in the background while he's trying to get all the details of what's going on. And Jen tells him it's John's girlfriend. So we know it's Karen that's yelling.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

79.67

And I have a way for you to follow along with us through that second trial. We're going to be doing a trial watch along with my friend and fellow podcaster Brandi Churchwell, who has become quite literally an expert on this case. Now, she's not a lawyer. She is a layman like you and me, like the jury.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

805.596

And Jen also tells the dispatcher that they don't think John is breathing. And the dispatcher tells them to start CPR. So Karen starts that until Canton police and paramedics get there, which is like a few minutes later. And they're all probably shocked to find out that the man lying in the snow is one of their own. Now, John isn't Canton PD.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

825.662

Like I said, he is a 16-year veteran of the Boston Police Department. But he lives in Canton, and Canton is a small town where, like, most everyone knows each other. So the pressure is on to try and save John. They rush him to the hospital and Karen is actually brought to the hospital too because she is threatening that she might take her own life if John dies.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

846.21

But try as they might, John can't be saved. And by 7.50 in the morning, authorities deliver the heartbreaking news that John has died. And the investigation into his death officially kicks off with a man named Michael Proctor at the helm. And boy, would that turn out to be a mistake.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

867.839

At the scene where John was found, Canton police officers battle continued snowfall as they try and sift through the inches of white powder on the ground to look for and collect evidence. Now, meanwhile, State Trooper Michael Proctor has already began talking to people, and he's hearing bits and pieces of a fuzzy story. But the outline is there. Everyone's been drinking. It's a snowstorm.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

891.607

People are drinking and driving in a snowstorm. He's told that Karen dropped John off, but John never made it in. He needs to talk to Karen. I mean, lots of people are talking about Karen, about what they say came out of Karen's mouth that morning. But Michael needs to talk directly to Karen.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

915.97

So according to a paramedic, yes. They say they actually heard her say it three times. I hit him. I hit him. I hit him. But cops don't know that yet. Now, by this point, Karen has been released from the hospital and they did a blood test while she was in there. And the results were that her BAC was 0.07 to 0.08 percent, which is just around the legal limit.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

937.163

And mind you, this is hours after she reportedly stopped drinking.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

941.385

But she's been released by this point. She's at her parents' place. Like, she had actually gone there after first going to John's house. I mean, that was basically her second home. But John's family was all there. And she said, like, when she got there, she did not feel welcome. So, like, mom and dad's house it is.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

957.341

So that's where Michael Proctor finds her and her SUV, which they seize as part of their investigation. She tells Proctor and another sergeant that he's with that she and John were fine. Now, they did get into an argument that morning on the 28th over like what she gave his teenage niece for breakfast, like one of those dumb fights that couples have.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

97.395

And she'll be doing live watch alongs and daily recaps on our new YouTube page, Crime Junkie Jury. But before we get back to court, I'm going to present to you the two versions of the same story that we heard last time. and you get to decide which one is true. These are the stories of the death of John O'Keefe. Here's what we know for sure about January 28th and 29th, 2022.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

977.546

And then that night, she and John met up at the bars. She dropped John off at the Albert home, made a three-point turn, and then headed back home. And then in the morning, she spotted a broken taillight on her car but wasn't sure how it happened. Now, we know that this first meeting with Karen fed into investigators' brewing theory about her culpability.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read

999.158

And the investigation Proctor leads over the next week or so only feeds the fire even more. Back at the scene, other officers had begun finding physical evidence around the area where John's body had been. When he was carted off, he was missing one shoe, but that got found nearby along with his hat,

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And the story I have for you today could probably be its own season of CounterClock. It is about eight women, all last seen in the same small town in Louisiana, all connected by much more than their deaths. And this rabbit hole goes deep, but answers could be just around the corner because someone knows something.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

1009.281

And the arrest seems to be based on testimony from Loretta's cousin, Tracy. Remember her? So her story by this point has changed. Her first story was they hang out. They go to Frankie's motel. He kicks them out. They go somewhere else. Tracy goes home, leaves Kristen at the house, whatever. Mm-hmm. Well, according to Ethan Brown's book, no.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

1031.154

Tracy now tells investigators that she was with Kristen, Frankie, Frankie's niece Hannah, and another sex worker on the night of March 9th. Apparently the group was partying, but at some point the night took a turn when they were all out like driving around. And Frankie accused Kristen of stealing from him. So he like dragged her out of the truck they were in, beat her.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

1053.953

He pulled her into a canal where Hannah held Kristen underwater until she stopped moving. Tracy apparently took investigators on the route that the group drove that night and everything, so they were confident enough in her story to make these arrests. Well, then Tracy gets charged as an accessory after the fact.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

1075.473

Now, later on, a conflicting story starts to bubble up, one that says Kristen's murder took place in Frankie's brother's camper after he got mad that Kristen refused his sexual advances and that Frankie forced Tracy to hold Kristen's head down in a bucket of water. Like, there are elements that are the same, but, like, pretty big pieces that change.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

1098.271

Police don't know which story is the more accurate one, but the consensus seems to be that Frankie was the ringleader and that Hannah and Tracy were involved to varying degrees. Except... A lot like the story we have with Ernestine's case, we only have people telling stories. We have no hard proof of anything.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

1118.349

And actually, this time, they even lose the story they have as well, because eventually, Tracy stops cooperating, and she walks back her confession, like all versions of it. Because she got implicated? Well, she says that none of it was ever true to begin with. She says that the police wouldn't leave her alone, so she made up a story that she says she heard on the street, and like...

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

1139.858

padded it with things that she claims investigators led her to say. But because of this now, like the DA quietly has to just like drop the charges against Frankie and Hannah. Because without Tracy, they got nothing. Which isn't to say that there was no physical evidence to get though. So this is so weird. Somehow, someway, a Jennings police sergeant

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

1163.459

Now, this is a different agency than the sheriff's office that was investigating. The sheriff's office is Jefferson Davis Parish. So this sergeant from the police department takes the statement of two women while they're in jail who tell the sergeant that one of the sheriff's lead investigators assigned to the murders may have gotten rid of evidence in Kristen's murder on behalf.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

1191.434

Of none other than Frankie Richard. Oh, apparently this investigator was friendly with Frankie. And shortly after Kristen's murder, he bought the pickup truck that Kristen was allegedly riding around in the night she was murdered. And this dude washed it and then flipped it for almost double what he paid. The price doesn't even matter, but he basically washed it and sold it, got rid of it.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

120.043

So he quickly calls 911 and within minutes, authorities from the Jefferson Davis Parish Sheriff's Office are on the scene. And they begin to pull a woman's body out of the canal. She's clothed. She's wearing blue jeans, a white blouse, but nothing else is on her. Like no ID, nothing. And considering that she's in an advanced state of decomposition, they know IDing her could be tough.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

1214.591

And listen, there is no proof this investigator bought the truck to do Frankie some kind of favor.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

1229.375

There's proof of that. It's not a matter of if this investigator bought and then sold the truck.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

1238.098

And perhaps even more telling than that, though, is what happened after. So the sergeant who takes this statement about all of this shady truck business, he doesn't feel comfortable going up the chain of command with what he's heard about one of the lead investigators. He's worried that it'll go to the wrong person and then nothing's going to happen. Brush under the rug.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

1265.821

So he tells this local P.I. about the story and then the P.I. goes to the F.B.I., Well, fast forward a little bit and the investigator who sold the truck ends up going before an ethics board who determined that his actions were unethical.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

1283.927

He's fined $10,000, taken off the murder investigation, which feels like a step in the right direction.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

1291.288

Until the sheriff's department puts him back. in charge of the evidence room at the sheriff's office. In charge of the evidence, like this guy who was unethical for what he did with evidence. Shut the fuck up.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

1328.891

He claims that he didn't know it was potential evidence at the time.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

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It's not cool. Oh, and the sergeant who took those two statements and then reported this whole thing like and it got to the FBI, he gets fired. The guy who did the right thing. According to a docuseries based on Ethan's book, he's arrested and accused of malfeasance and obstruction because he went to a civilian as opposed to following the standard chain of command.

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He is also accused of inappropriately touching one of the female inmates who gave him this information during their initial interview. To be clear, this charge is later dropped. But by that point, Like, the damage was done to his career. He pleads guilty to the malfeasance charge and the obstruction charge is eventually dropped.

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I know. And the argument they have for not firing the guy who sold the truck is like, well, he didn't do anything wrong intentionally. Like, it was just like a big oopsie. But, you know, he was getting rid of evidence for a criminal. Like, why would you be getting rid of evidence for a criminal?

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So her autopsy the next day tells them that she's been in the water for about three days, but they can't find a cause of death. There's no mention of drowning, no mention of sexual assault, and no sign of significant injury. Although Ethan Brown's book, Murder in the Bayou, does mention some blood under her scalp, but I'm honestly a little unclear what that's referring to.

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And again, maybe he didn't know, like, what he was doing, but like... I guess that's my question exactly.

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So, there are a few theories. Okay. One is that Frankie was working as an informant feeding police info about the drug trade there in town. If you haven't gotten this by now, Frankie is like super well connected, not a great guy. And Jennings is like a small town as it gets. Everyone knows everyone. So having someone like him on your side can be an asset. And he can't be useful.

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He can't be a useful asset if he's behind bars.

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Well, that's what it feels like to a lot of people in town. He feels untouchable. He feels like he can do whatever he wants. And boo, I wish this was new. I was just listening to this podcast called Who Killed Jennifer Jeff?

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Very good. Highly recommend. Light spoiler here, but I'll be vague. Where I left off in the series, the investigator who hosts it thinks that police in that case kept letting this one guy off for everything, even murders he was confessing to, because he was an informant.

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Now, that sounds unbelievable, but I guess the way that certain laws work in certain states, the cops who the CIs, like, report to could be held accountable for the CIs' crimes, too, because they did stuff, like, on their watch. Right. So it's like you let one thing slide. You know, they're still out there. They kill someone like, oh, now all of a sudden you're on the hook a little.

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So you're like actively covering for the CIA to cover your own ass. Right. Or equally sinister. You just don't care about the people your CIA is killing. And however, like you're on the take money, drugs, promotions, whatever, like that's the thing that's important to you. And here in Jennings, police are definitely rumored to be in on the take.

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Like I said, there is a massive drug problem in Jennings. Police are making traffic stops all the time, seizing tons of stuff. But where it all goes can get a little fuzzy when it goes to that evidence room, right? Like...

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There are numerous stories of cops stealing money and drugs from the evidence room. And in the docuseries, one of Kristen's friends alleges that a lot of the drugs in town actually come from the cops themselves. And Frankie is at the top of this food chain. So if Frankie's at the top and the cops who are supposed to be policing his criminal activity are rumored to be in on it, Who do you go to?

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Right. There is no one. And the community feels hopeless, but they haven't hit rock bottom yet. On May 29, 2008, another woman is found by a police officer, no less. 23-year-old Laconia Brown, or Muggy as most people know her, is found. She is discovered laying on the road, fully clothed. She has seven cuts to the front of her neck, along with several cuts behind her right ear.

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It appears like bleach had been poured over her body to destroy any physical evidence. And Muggie's an interesting player in all of this because she kind of threads our web together even tighter, starting from the beginning. So remember our first victim, Loretta. She is rumored to have been with a man named Stiney and two other sex workers when she was last seen alive.

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And a talk screen reveals there are some drugs in her system, but they can't tell if it was enough for an overdose. So her manner of death ends up being classified as undetermined. But there is one answer they get from this autopsy. Through fingerprints, she is identified as 28-year-old Loretta Chasson. Loretta's name isn't unfamiliar to police in Jennings. She's a sex worker.

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Well, Muggy was one of those two sex workers. And Stymie is Muggy's boyfriend. There's even a rumor that Muggy and Stymie saw Loretta's body in the canal before that fisherman saw her. Now, if we go to victim number two, Ernestine, Muggy had been brought in for an interview during the investigation into her death because they ran in the same crowds.

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Muggy told police that she had heard that Ernestine robbed some people, kind of offering that up as a possible reason for her murder. Mm-hmm. But according to Ethan Brown's book, some sources, a little unclear who, claim that Muggy witnessed Byron and Lawrence kill Ernestine. And oh, by the way, Lawrence is her cousin.

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I don't think so. We're in 2008. Like, Ernestine was killed in 2005. They've been kind of home free for a while at this point. Like, no one's really looking at them hard for her murder anymore. And they had been, but now they aren't. They're kind of off them.

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And in all of the rumors about who killed Muggy that make their way through the community, Byron and Lawrence, like, I don't think they come up at all. Again, I think it's more of like, like... okay, there has to be an I at the center of this hurricane. Who's at the center? That's what they're looking for now. So Stiney's name comes up a lot. Again, he's her boyfriend after all.

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A couple of other names kind of get thrown out in connection to her case. But all the names that get thrown around, they all have a connection to the same guy, to Frankie Richard. Of course. But also on the list of potential suspects with Frankie and Stiney and, you know, other associates, is a surprise that probably shouldn't be a surprise by now. The police themselves.

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And it's someone from the inside who tips Muggy's family off that they should be looking at the police. You see, shortly after her death, Muggy's family is contacted by the Jefferson Davis Parish coroner who tells them that he suspects the police are involved in her death. And that he, he says, is being followed by sheriff's deputies. Now, he won't say anything else. Not who he thinks killed her.

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Not why.

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And if he ever gives them any more details, that's never reported on. But what's interesting is that this isn't the first time that he has contacted a victim's family and told them that he suspects a cover-up. Now, this wasn't for any of the cases that I've told you about today.

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This is totally unrelated other than the fact that I think it shows like the system in our case like that we're operating in. But I think it's important for context. So back in 2007, a sheriff's deputy shot a man in an altercation that escalated far more than it should have.

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And it was deemed justifiable at the time with the officer claiming that the man had tried to shoot him, so he shot back in self-defense. But this coroner had contacted the family of that man who was shot and told them that the man had no gunpowder residue on his hand, so he couldn't have shot the gun like that officer was saying.

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Now, the coroner later backtracked that accusation, but obviously there were still some questions. So during the production of the docuseries in 2019, an investigator working with the production team wanted to look at the gun that was supposedly fired at police. But wouldn't you know it, it was inexplicably missing from the evidence locker.

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So that coroner eventually dies of cancer. So he can't answer all of the questions I'm sure that Muggy's family would still like to ask him. And there's nothing in the source material that Muggy's family did anything with what they were initially told. And maybe they couldn't. I mean, he didn't really give them a whole lot to go on.

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She'd had several run-ins or prior arrests that often revolved around drugs and theft. And although no one had reported her missing, they end up learning from one of her brothers that he had last seen Loretta three days before the fishermen had found her on the 17th. And he saw her at a gas station there in town.

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No specific details, no actual proof or evidence that they could use. And again, like they're up against the system that's working against them.

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Exactly. Who do you go to when the people who are supposed to be protecting you are the ones you need protecting from? So just like the other cases, eventually the investigation into Muggy's death stalls. Summer turns into fall. There's no arrests, no justice for her or any of the other women. And there's this palpable fear that hangs in the air.

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Everyone is wondering if there's going to be another victim. And on September 11, 2008, they get their answer when a group of hunters finds another body, this time in the woods. The remains are unclothed and, according to Ethan's book, nearly skeletal. And while the death is ruled a homicide, investigators can't positively ID the victim, so they have to turn to DNA for that.

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And that ends up telling them that their victim is 24-year-old Crystal Shea Benoit Zeno, who hadn't been seen in a few weeks.

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I mean, we're talking summer in the woods, Louisiana. A lot of animal activity is my assumption. Now, getting her ID took a minute, especially with them having to use DNA. And while they're still trying to figure out who she was, another Jennings resident went missing, 17-year-old Brittany Gary. Now, she is actually the cousin of Kristen Lopez, victim number three.

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Yes. Now, within a couple of weeks, Brittany's body ends up getting found. She's nude, laying face down in tall grass about 10 feet off a rural road. Like many of the victims, her body was already in an advanced state of decomposition, possibly on the elements for days. So that makes it hard to determine precisely what happened.

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In Ethan's book, it suggested that the cause of death is asphyxia and that she didn't have any other visible injuries like we've seen with some of the others.

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Both associated with Frankie Richard, exactly. But there's something that is very interesting about Brittany's case specifically. What? So according to Ethan Brown's book, Brittany was last said to have been seen getting into the vehicle of a man named Danny Berry.

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Now, Ethan later claims in his book that he spoke to someone in law enforcement who claims that Brittany was with Danny for two days after she was last seen, like drinking and doing drugs. She's with Danny, but that is Deputy Danny Berry. Oh. He works at the Jefferson Davis Parish Jail. Now, this dude isn't exactly a squeaky clean, like no skeletons in the closet type of guy.

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INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

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Now, this brother had watched Loretta willingly get into a vehicle of this guy named Frankie Richard. And that is another name that is well known in town. He has connections to just about everyone in Jennings' criminal underworld, from drugs to sex work to just like general violence. And according to Ethan Brown's book, word on the street is that Loretta was seen after this as well.

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Apparently, Deputy Danny Berry is known around town for picking up sex workers, including some of the other victims. And rumor has it from some of the sex workers in town who have visited his home that he has what is essentially a sex dungeon.

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Listen, first of all, if he did pick up Britney, she wasn't an adult. And sure, I agree. Like, you want your 50 shades of gray room, like, you do you, boo. But this dude was lined with plastic sheeting. And unless you're hosting, like, the town jello fight in your basement, like, I don't like it, Dexter.

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But the dungeon is just a rumor, though, like, to be clear. Ethan doesn't name his law enforcement source in the book, but it seems like the allegations levied against Danny Barry are at least taken semi-seriously. Because according to the docuseries, Danny's interviewed a few months after Brittany's body is found.

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Now, the interview lasted only like 15, 20 minutes, and he didn't tell them anything incriminating during it. He said, like, he can sleep fine at night because he didn't do anything. Didn't even know Brittany.

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Now, Danny has never named an official suspect by police in Brittany's murder or any of the homicides, for that matter, despite Frankie Richard later alleging that Danny was responsible for all of them. Sigh. Frankie also says that all of the bodies were found within a three-mile radius of Danny's home. Is that even true? So I don't think so. Like, not if all the reporting is accurate.

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And to be clear, Frankie could be saying all of that because he wants people off his back. Right. After Brittany's body is found, Jennings' residents are tired. Tired of finding their women dead. Tired of law enforcement seeming to look the other way. And they make enough noise that a multi-agency task force ends up getting formed.

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This task force is made up of other sheriff's offices, state police, the attorney general's office, and the FBI. So some major third parties. Yes. And you would think that this new multi-agency task force, like, propels this thing forward. Essentially with outside influences like the FBI being on board. But it doesn't. The sheriff's office is actually the one who oversees the task force?

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Question mark? Wait, wait. You would think the FBI would, like, or any of the outside entities. Yeah. And as you can imagine, like, this doesn't go well with literally anyone. So while not a whole lot is happening with the task force, Frankie Richard is again arrested in 2009. This time in connection to, like, this theft ring that's going on.

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His house gets raided and $3,500 in cash is taken and then subsequently goes missing from evidence. So without that money, the case against Frankie falls apart. The charges are dropped, and the one sheriff's deputy is fired for her suspected role in the theft, which yet again causes allegations of police corruption. Like, that's when everyone starts talking about it again.

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Yes, but no one takes charge in time. According to the Daily Advertiser, on August 19th, seven victims becomes eight. A maintenance crew doing some mowing along I-10 in neighboring Acadia Parish discovers yet another young woman's body just 10 miles away from Jennings. But the victim is a Jennings local, 26-year-old Nicole Guillory.

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While there are some minor cuts on Nicole's face and above her eye, the coroner concludes that she most likely died from asphyxia roughly two days before she was found. And according to her family, Nicole was afraid in the months and possibly even years leading up to her death.

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Not just because other sex workers were turning up dead, but because she knew a lot of them and was possibly a witness to at least one of the murders. Because guess what? Just like how Muggy was one of the two sex workers with victim number one, Loretta, like the last people she was seen with before she died. Well, lo and behold, Nicole was the other one.

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So she gets in this guy's car and then she's seen later at this bar and motel known as the Boudreaux Inn. It's one of the few hubs in town known for sex work and drug activity. So according to some folks who claim that they saw her, she was seen with two other sex workers and this man who goes by the nickname Stymie.

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And she had apparently told her friends and family that she watched Stymie, again Muggy's boyfriend, kill Loretta.

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No, I agree. I don't think Stymie is ever seriously considered as a suspect in her death, but I don't think anyone really is. But there are some odd connections Nicole has with the rest of the Jeff Davis Eight that I haven't really talked about yet.

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So another common thread in this web that we have other than Frankie Richard is Nicole's cousin slash warden of the Jefferson Davis Parish Jail, this guy named Terry Guillory.

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Now, Terry's name first pops up with Loretta, victim number one. Literally just hours before her body was found, Loretta's mom claims that Terry went to her house and asked her where Loretta was. She said, you know, I don't know. And Terry's response was that he thought she was missing. But... Except, you got it, that's weird because nobody knew that she had vanished until her body was found.

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Right. Now, Terry and Loretta definitely knew each other, like, intimately, allegedly. One of Loretta's former cellmates at the jail said that she witnessed Terry and Loretta having sex during one of the times that Loretta was incarcerated.

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So there's connection number one to victim number one. He also pops back up with Crystal Zeno, victim number six. So she made a phone call right before she vanished to Terry. I'm not sure what they talked about. And after that, she was allegedly seen getting into a white truck with a few guys who were known associates of Frankie Rashard.

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So Terry wasn't the first on the list of potential suspects for that reason alone in that case, but like something he said after Crystal's body was found was eerily similar to what he told Loretta's mom. So after Crystal's remains were discovered, but before she was identified… He went to Crystal's mom and said that he knew the body they found was her daughter.

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And she obviously asked him, like, how do you know that? Yeah. And he says that he recognized a tattoo on this, like, quote, intimate part of her body. So how did he know that tattoo was there? That's the weird part, right? Like, I don't even know what the tattoo was of or where exactly it was. But her mom later says the only way he would have known it was there is if he'd been intimate with her.

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And again, Crystal, much like Loretta, wasn't even reported missing. Yet, Terry seems to know a lot more than everyone else. And allegedly, during this conversation with Crystal's mother, Terry said that he didn't kill her. Like, by the way. Did anyone suggest that?

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And all it takes is one person to unravel this decades-old mystery. So, crime junkies, grab your snacks, pull out your string boards, and settle in. Because this is the story of the Jeff Davis Eight. It's May 20th, 2005, and a man named Jerry Jackson is ready for a warm, relaxing afternoon fishing.

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But what happened to her after she left the inn or how she ended up in the canal is anyone's guess. And since Loretta's death isn't determined a homicide, there isn't this like...

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No, dude, just like offered up that information randomly, which that left Crystal's mom feeling like all sorts of like not right about her. Yeah. Then there's this relationship with another victim, which is a little less concrete. But he's got this reputation around town for helping the local sex workers out when they get in trouble.

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Like, they get arrested, they get in a bind, they call Terry, and Terry will get them out for information in return. All eight of the victims were at one point or another giving police information on the happenings in Jennings, like in the criminal underworld. Known fact, like nobody's questioning that.

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And Terry was one of the people who had built out this network of informants, which included some, if not all, of the Jeff Davis eight.

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I mean, it's definitely a possibility. Just like Danny, Terry himself isn't squeaky clean. So here you go. Remember that other case that I talked about where the coroner tried to blow the whistle, but where like the guy got shot? Okay, so the deputy who fired the shot that killed the man was Terry Guillory. What? And then remember when Frankie got in trouble, but then like the money went missing?

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So the charges got dropped, yeah. Okay, so the deputy that got fired for maybe being connected to that, the money going missing, whatever, that's Terry's wife. Oh. And as the warden of the jail, Terry's eventually accused by task force witnesses of running it basically like a brothel, or at least it's being run like a brothel by other officers who he's in charge of. Like officers can come in,

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sexually assault inmates, and get away scot-free. And while he's never officially disciplined for anything, a civil suit is filed against a guard under Terry's command. So in one of the few steps forward that the task force actually makes, Sheriff Ricky Edwards orders that all of the investigators on this case should submit DNA samples. This happens in 2009. So there's DNA. So here's the thing.

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big push for answers I mean I know police interview a few people after her death but what those people say isn't totally clear and they might not have said much of anything at all because the divide between many of the residents of Jennings and the police is like Very wide and very deep for a few reasons.

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I don't know. Nothing has been stated publicly about what they would compare this to or if there's ever a sample in any of the cases that they've collected that they have a profile against. Also something they've never said is, like, what they do with these samples. Oh. Mm-hmm. So, like... Cool. Whatever happens after they're like, hey, everyone needs to give us their DNA, it's been kept a secret.

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Literally nothing is released about the results. I'd like to assume if there was a match that there would be an arrest, but I don't know.

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Lots of silence coming from that side. But after everyone gets swabbed for DNA, what's so interesting is that the murders just stop. Oh. The task force stops investigating eventually. Sheriffs come and go. Rumors still fly. Accusations are still levied against people.

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I mean, one rumor has it that the murders were never properly investigated because a congressman had spent time at the Boudreaux Inn where many of the women worked out of. And basically like investigating the deaths might make things messy for someone in a public office. And I think that's like the overarching theme of all of this, like the apathy.

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Were all of these women victims of the same killer? I don't know. In Ethan's book, he describes how rare it is for victims of a serial killer to all know each other. Now, the caveat of that is in a town like Jennings, everyone does know everyone. So if there was a serial killer and he's only operating in one area. The chances are really high that his victims are going to know each other.

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Probably know each other. Right. But it's also possible that these women were victims of separate killers. I mean, we have Stymie, who was allegedly with Loretta the night she died. Ethan Brown states in his book that he thinks Stymie was the one who killed her.

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He also is on the list of people who may have killed Muggy and Nicole, but any secrets that he might have kept, he took to his grave because he died in 2017. And then you have Danny Berry. His name pops up when Brittany's body is found. And he was allegedly with her for two days after anyone last saw her. Remember, we got Frankie accusing him of killing all of the women.

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Now, Danny's not around anymore either. He died of cancer in 2010. And if you're keeping track, that is a year after Nicole, the final victim. There's a man everyone in town seems to be connected to as well. And the guy who pointed his finger at a lot of other people. And that's Frankie Richard, who at one point had most of the Jeff Davis eight women working for him.

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He was one of the last people who saw Loretta and Whitney. He was accused of killing Kristen. But to be clear, Frankie has always claimed his innocence and he died in 2020. So he's not around to ask anymore. I also think it's worth mentioning Terry Guillory here as jail warden, cousin of victim number eight, Nicole, and he definitely spoke with Crystal the night that she vanished.

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One being that Jennings and the larger Jefferson Davis Parish it's located in sits between Houston and New Orleans. And this makes it like the perfect pit stop for drug traffickers moving between the two big cities. And it leaves Jennings with a major drug problem. People tied up in illegal activity don't tend to love talking to the police.

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And then there's those weird conversations with Loretta and Crystal's moms that like were just bizarre. He's never been named a suspect. And at the very minimum, it's like maybe he just has weird connections to this case. Like we actually he's the one person who's still alive. We tried to reach him for a comment. He's still working in law enforcement. He's actually not in Jennings anymore.

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He's in a town over. So we left a message for his colleagues, but like he never called us back. And look, maybe it's not any of them. I mean, there are rabbit holes upon rabbit holes that you can go down in this story if you want a deep dive. Like, I didn't even get into the guy, like, that got some attention around Whitney's case.

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Like, her body was found by a man named Jamie who claimed that he saw her body on the road from where he was driving past, like, on a nearby highway. It was, like, half a mile away. Literally, it's physically not possible based on where he said he was. So that's weird. And another man actually comes forward and says that Jamie's like straight up lying.

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INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

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According to this witness, he says that he was out driving the back roads with Jamie the night before, like before she was quote unquote found and before Whitney's body even lit up under the headlights while they're driving. Jamie was already like swerving out of the way to avoid her. So what does that mean? Like who is he connected to in the web of all of this?

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I even tried looking to see if there were any active serial killers like in the relative vicinity of Jennings around 2005 to 2009. But all the known ones were either caught before Loretta's death, our first victim, or they targeted men. So either there is someone out there who hasn't been caught or there are several people who are responsible for all eight deaths.

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And at least as of right now, that's the prevailing school of thought. A new sheriff of Jefferson Davis Parish was recently elected in 2024. His name is Kyle Mears, and we tried reaching out to him, too. But as of the recording of this episode, he hasn't called or emailed us back. But back when he was running for sheriff, he talked about bringing justice to all eight murder victims.

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INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

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And he called them all murder victims. He promised to keep the cases open and have the evidence tested. Again, what evidence? I don't know. But he made a lot of promises that I hope he keeps and delivers on. And the longer these cases go unsolved, the harder it's going to be to see the light at the end of the tunnel. But secrets like this don't stay secrets forever.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

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Someone knows what happened to these women. Because that's just the nature of a small town. Everyone knows everyone's business. And it just takes the right person or the right people to come forward. And listen, that might be you.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

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So if you have any information about the deaths of Loretta Chasson, Ernestine Patterson, Kristen Lopez, Whitney Dubois, Crystal Zeno, Laconia Muggy Brown, Brittany Gary, or Nicole Guillory, you can call the Jefferson Davis Parish Sheriff's Office at 337-275-8188 or you can contact them online at jdpso.org slash crimetips.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

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You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.

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INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

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Crime Junkie Podcast

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

305.068

They also don't really trust them, and rightfully so, because both Jennings PD and the Jefferson Davis Parish Sheriff's Office have faced accusations of corruption for things like selling drugs that they captured in raids, using public finances for private expenses, harassing and assaulting local sex workers. I mean, the list goes on and on.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

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All right. Give me some good, my gal. Okay.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

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But according to reporting by Deanna Paul for The Washington Post, as much as the local community might not trust them, it actually doesn't keep them from calling them about this case. The thing is, they're not calling with tips, though. They want information. They want to know if they should be scared.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

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Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

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INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

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Because you see, even though police aren't calling Loretta's death a homicide, just about everyone she knew and worked with is. And for some reason, there is this rumor going around that there is a serial killer on the loose. I don't know why or how or where these even started, because it's not like there is a string of cases that are unsolved. At least, not yet anyway.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

371.796

But less than a month later... Another woman's body is found in a canal five to six miles away from where Loretta was found. And it is deja vu when she's pulled from the water. She also looks like she's been there for a few days at least. She's partially clothed. She's wearing denim shorts. And despite the decomp, this time there is an obvious wound.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

395.205

Everyone at the scene can see several clear gashes to her throat. Hmm. So over the next few days, she is identified as 30-year-old Ernestine Patterson. There's no arguing that her death is a homicide. In addition to the cuts on her throat, there are also some bruising that they find on her hands, indicating that she had some kind of struggle before her death.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

417.302

Just like Loretta, a talk screen reveals drugs in her system and Ernestine also, they find out, participated in sex work and she struggled with substance use disorder. In fact, she and Loretta actually ran in a lot of the same circles, knew a lot of the same people.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

442.016

So you would think. But just when everyone is like getting on that train. There's like this holdup moment because unlike the serial killer rumor that seems to pop up out of nowhere and like never get traced back to anyone, there are people who actually come forward this time with some pretty compelling stories about what might have happened to Ernestine.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

463.303

According to Ethan Brown's book, the running theory is that Ernestine was out looking for clients and had sex with a man named Byron Chad Jones. Now, Byron's friend, Lawrence Nixon, was apparently also there, though it's unclear if they had sex. But if you believe the rumors, they killed Ernestine and dumped her in the canal. And there does seem to be some there there to all of this.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

487.551

Lawrence's wife, for one, eventually tells police that the two men showed up to her house with this huge blood-soaked trash bag filled with something and then left the bag sitting out on their front porch and admitted to her that they'd killed Ernestine. Now, his wife's daughter was home that night too, and she says that she saw Lawrence covered in blood when he came home.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

510.622

Ernestine's uncle is one of Lawrence's neighbors, and he'd actually given Lawrence an industrial-sized trash bag earlier that same day. And then police also hear through the grapevine that Byron, the other guy, and Lawrence had left a jagged hunting knife in an abandoned home where whatever happened allegedly went down.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

531.135

Now, based on these witness accounts, Byron and Lawrence are eventually indicted for second-degree murder, to which they plead not guilty. And the case against them quickly just falls apart, though, mostly because it's based on all this hearsay statement and rumors from people. And police didn't seem to make use of the opportunity to actually gather any physical evidence.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

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Like, for instance, that abandoned house with the hunting knife and all of that, like, that house is never searched. No bloody trash bag is ever found.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

569.984

Oh my gosh, the porch. So, yes, and they do, but they do this 16 months after Ernestine's death.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

577.791

Nothing usable. But I mean, I'd be surprised if they could have even gotten anything usable had they gone right away. Because Lawrence's wife, when she's telling them her story, she admits to hosing down the porch after they supposedly left to go dump Ernestine's body.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

595.496

No questions asked. And look, neither of those guys are like squeaky clean by any means. Byron had been arrested for things like robbery and sexual assault, though I couldn't find what the outcomes of those charges actually were. Lawrence had recently been indicted along with others for conspiracy to commit forcible rape. to which he pleaded not guilty, and those charges were later dropped.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

617.838

But they have zero physical evidence tying these guys to Ernestine, to her murder, which means they go free.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

629.041

No, not that I can see. I mean, they might have known her or crossed paths with her, but nothing that would have indicated that they were suspects in her death. I don't think they ever get looked at for her death. So once this goes away for Byron and Lawrence, police are back to square one. And for nearly two years after Ernestine's death, things are relatively quiet in Jennings.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

651.487

Even the rumors of a serial killer seem to kind of die down. That is until 2007, when two more women are killed nearly back to back. The first woman that's found is 21-year-old Kristen Gary Lopez, who's found nearly nude in another canal just outside of Jennings in March. And then 26-year-old Whitney Dubois is found off a remote road in May.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

680.308

Now, Kristen was the most decomposed of all the victims found so far, but it made sense since she'd been missing for over 10 days before she was found. They found that she had died from a mix of drug intoxication, asphyxia, and drowning, according to Ethan Brown's reporting. But her manner of death was undetermined.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

700.58

Now, Whitney was found like a day after she was killed, but somehow they know even less because both her manner and cause of death end up getting listed as undetermined. So the discovery of the two women's bodies bring all the panic and all the fear of a serial killer roaring back to life for the people of Jennings.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

721.417

Although, despite now four apparent victims, the police publicly were taking a more cautious tone. While they felt these deaths could be connected, they said, they weren't willing to claim that they had a serial killer on the loose. But it's clear to everyone else that something is going on here because, again, these were two women who ran together.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

743.007

Kristen and Whitney were both involved in sex work. They had connections to the other victims as well. Kristen had even been interviewed by police after Loretta's death. And this is when we start to see the outline of this like web of connections. So remember Frankie Richard?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

767.012

Making him one of the last people to see her alive. Now, to be clear, not the last, but I think that's part of this weird pattern. So with Kristen, on the day Kristen vanished, she'd been hanging out with Loretta's cousin, this woman named Tracy. And Tracy tells police that she and Kristen had gone to see Frankie at the motel that he was staying at there in town.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

789.568

Kristen trusted him almost like a father figure, but they'd recently had some kind of falling out. So he ends up kicking them out of his room. After that, Tracy and Kristen end up at a house on the south side of Jennings. That's where Tracy left Kristen. So, again, Frankie wasn't necessarily the last person to see Kristen alive.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

80.807

He's standing on a bridge overlooking a canal less than 10 miles from his home in Jennings, Louisiana. And before he even baits his hook, he notices something churning in the water below. At first, he thinks he's looking at a mannequin. Never.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

809.806

But one of them. And then with Whitney, he was truly the last. So she was last seen on May 11th arguing with Frankie outside of his house. Not sure what they were arguing about, but if the rumors are to be believed, he followed her when she stormed off after this like argument or whatever.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

829.402

Now, Frankie ends up admitting to both of these encounters with both of these women, but he claims like he has nothing to do with their death.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

845.053

And four women from the same community showing up dead in similar ways, similar places kind of thing. It's like it isn't feeling like much of a coincidence to the people who have been already convinced that there is a serial killer like since day one. And the sheriff at the time, this guy Ricky Edwards, he isn't really doing anything, like, to assuage anyone's fears.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

867.201

He kind of dances around the serial killer rumors, pointing to, like, the technicality that three of the women's deaths are classified as undetermined. Like, they don't know.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

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Right. They're like, we don't know if it's a single, whatever. We don't know if it's several people. At one point, he claims that they may be dealing with a serial dumper, as he puts it.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

896.882

He literally made this up. Piecing it together with what he says later, which is basically that all of these women lived very high-risk lifestyles. That's what led to their death. I think it was his insinuation that maybe...

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

910.11

the three undetermined at least those deaths were some kind of accident or something kind of their fault is his implication but maybe that they were all hanging out with the same people who then just disposed of their bodies in similar ways and like no fear he gets mad backlash for all of this later kind of walks it back but when your sheriff is saying things like that it doesn't breed confidence that law enforcement is doing everything they can to get to the bottom of whatever's going on

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

937.444

Not to mention, it doesn't appear that they're very good at solving murders to begin with. According to several news articles and even his book, statistics from the FBI show that the Jefferson Davis Parish clearance rate for homicides, like I don't even want to make you guess, it is so abysmal, it was just under 7%. Which, like, the national clearance rate is over 60. That's a single digit.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

962.121

Abysmal. Everyone's frustrated. Everyone is scared. It feels like there is no hope. That is until May 16th. This is four days after Whitney's body is found. That's when police announced that they have charged two people with Kristen's murder. Now, police didn't have to look hard to find Frankie Richard. He was already sitting in jail at this point on a pending sexual assault charge.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

97.831

No. But he has reason for thinking that. So he had recently heard a news story about some mannequins being stolen nearby. So at first he's like, yeah, he's like, oh, it must be one of those stolen mannequins. But as he looks closer, he has this like sickening realization that plastic wouldn't attract the swarm of flies that he sees buzzing around.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Jeff Davis 8

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An assault where, by the way, the survivor alleges that Frankie threatened that she would, quote, end up like the others if she told anyone, referencing the four women who've already been found deceased. So he's one of the two they charge. They charge him with second-degree murder in Kristen's case along with his niece, Hannah, who was one of Kristen's friends.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

0.569

Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And the story I have for you today is about how a young woman's senseless and violent murder shone a light in all the darkest parts of one small northern Manitoba community. And it put a whole town on trial. It's a story that is just as important to hear today as it was over 50 years ago when it happened.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1013.294

I know. I know. I feel like. I honestly. And, like, you can't pin down the time. Especially, like, now, like, knowing he has a son. Again, they're like, oh, Bud's a good guy. Okay, well, what about the son? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Follow-up questions, at the very least. Podcasters have them. These police did not. Like, still, they are very much like nothing to see here, folks.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1033.704

And just like that, this lead, their only lead at this point, just fades away.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1047.235

Well, yeah, yeah. They're like, oh, this one that actually makes sense. We have one registered in this area where it happened.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1053.137

Yeah. Either they're discounting his sighting or they're like, oh, him seeing the car. Means nothing. Maybe the car wasn't. That's discounting the sighting. Well, I mean, they could think that the sighting happened. Do you know what I'm saying? Can I make a sense? Or am I not understanding you? Yeah, but they're one person that it could be. Dude, stop. So after this, Betty's case goes cold.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1078.998

No one comes forward with new information. And since we're in 1971, we are a far cry away from DNA.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1087.461

I mean, I know that they took blood samples. They took photos of the footprints, some nearby tire tracks, like closer to her body. I know they took her clothes. Spoiler alert, though, like none of it ends up being useful later on. It's not. There might be forensic evidence on it, but it's not what we're going to end up relying on. Cool.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1103.373

Now, her cooling case doesn't go entirely cold because the following year in May, police get an anonymous letter postmarked in Marquette, Michigan, April 28th, 1972. Now, I found the letter in the report of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry of Manitoba. What a mouthful. Yeah. But it's like one of the most important letters we get in this case. So, Britt, I'm going to have you read it.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

117.917

She's naked with only boots on her feet and she's all bloody and badly beaten. So Kenneth immediately runs back to get his dad and the two of them jump in the car. They drive to the closest place, which is I think this airport, to call police. But as luck would have it, there's actually an RCMP officer, which we know, Royal Canadian Mounted Police. He's on site when they get there.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1198.228

So I feel like all roads are leading back to Lee, right? Yeah. It might be worth, I don't know, talking to the kids since they have not yet, but not so fast. First, they don't just put it away, but they try and do some digging to validate what is in this letter. They confirm that the three guys named in the letter, so Lee, Jim, and Norm, who were 18, 23, and 25 when Betty was murdered...

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1225.327

All three are known to hang around together. They're also able to place all three of these guys at the Legion dance on November 12th. Where Betty was. Betty was. That's one of the last places she was seen. Did she know them? So, no, not, like, well, the only one in the group who might have known her or at least known of her was Lee because he'd been in one class with Betty at high school.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1247.734

Sometimes he'd play volleyball and basketball with her boyfriend, Cornelius, and she would be, like, you know, watching her boyfriend play or whatever. But, like, they for sure weren't friends. Just in this area might have, like, known each other's names, right? Cross paths. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, police track down Lee and Norm first.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1264.379

They both live in the PAW and they both flat out deny having anything to do with Betty's murder. Surprise, surprise. Jim is a little harder to track down. The Justice Inquiry report says RCMP speak with his parents in an attempt to locate him. Because I guess Jim has since moved away from the PAW. But it doesn't say if they actually ever questioned him. It's really strange.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1288.243

And I mean, like, it's hard to, like, go full speed at somebody, especially after they leave, because the only thing they have right now is circumstantial, like, evidence. It's just a letter. Yeah, witness statements. Yeah. So detectives go back to that thread that they never pulled on, the Colgan's car.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1305.054

And when they actually do go look at it, like, meaningfully look at it, guess what they find freaking right there? Bloodstains. And hair that looks like Betty's. Oh, and a bra strap. The same kind, or it looks like it belongs to the same bra as the one that they found in pieces at the crime scene. And this is what, like six months later? Seven.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1335.609

I'm assuming it's still being driven, and we're not talking... So here's the thing. We're not talking like huge bloodstains or chunks of hair. It's more like a few strands. I think maybe a couple small bloodstains when they're really trying to process this car. I think one, if I remember correctly, the bloodstain was like on a strap underneath the back seat.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1354.957

So it's not something that I think they would have like, they're like, oh, look at all this evidence just like laying around. I think it kind of went hidden unless you were really looking for it. And even though it's not a lot, it is still not a good look. But when they go back to Lee Colgan with this evidence and they're like, hey, how do you explain this? He's basically like, so what?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1375.174

Like, you found a bra strap and some blood. That doesn't prove anything. But what does it prove, Lee? Like, where'd the blood come from? He doesn't say. No, he doesn't say. He denies any involvement. And unfortunately... Even with what they have and this like anonymous letter, like it's not enough to actually do anything with.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1396.834

But I mean, you got to think if the letter writer is correct, it wasn't just Lee. Norm and Jim are in the car that night, too. And apparently there's someone else that they should be looking for. And on June 23rd, another anonymous tipster comes forward with another name. This new tipster gives police the name Dwayne Johnston. This is a local from the Paw who was 18 when Betty was killed.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

140.407

According to Lisa Preece's 1989 book, Conspiracy of Silence, this officer doesn't have experience necessarily as a criminal investigator. He's actually the pilot who's in charge of, like, the RCMP's air division or whatever.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1424.941

Now, this name, Dwayne, was not mentioned in the letter. And he doesn't really chum around with these other guys either. But police do know who he is, mostly because he is associated with this group known as the Paw Bikers, who tend to get themselves in trouble with police, like, barely often. And what does he have to say? Dwayne refuses to cooperate.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1445.022

Like he has a lawyer and the same lawyer also ends up getting hired by Lee, Jim and Norm. Oh, cool. Now, all of them refuse to talk. But I mean, the town's talking, though. Rumors are flying left and right. Stories of Lee getting drunk and telling whoever he's with that he was there that night. He knows what happened to Betty.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1467.274

But again, like we just have rumors and rumors don't get you a rest warrant. True, but what does bloodstains in your car get you? Not a whole lot in 1971. So it stays this way for 10 years. It's not until the summer of 1983 when a new investigator, Robert Urbanowski, cracks open Betty's case again. And in 1983, there's a little, not a lot, but a little more they can do with forensic evidence.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1496.108

So he tracks down all the evidence and resubmits it for testing. He interviews every officer who worked on the file over the last 12 years. He talks to police informants. He locates all four suspects who are by now kind of just scattered around Alberta, British Columbia, Manitoba.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1514.116

And it turns out when he's going around talking to these people and people around them, they're still just out there talking about the murder of Betty Osborne. So Urbanowski knows this case is solvable. So he asked to investigate it full time. And RCMP is like, listen, knock yourself out. So there are a few things he does to get the ball rolling again.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1535.845

So this is a little further down the line in 1985. Now, one of the things he does is this whole wiretapping operation that, to make a long story short, doesn't result in much of anything he can actually use. So in the summer of 1985, he puts an article in the local paper asking for the public's help solving Betty's case.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

155.418

But he still heads down towards the lake with them. Like, he'll take a first, like, look at all of this. And he's also keeping in mind, like, I need to be careful not to do anything that would disturb a potential crime scene. Preserve things. Right. Right. And when he gets there, it like very clearly is a crime scene. So he has to call in backup.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1556.046

He says he believes she was lured into a car, taken to the lake where she was killed. And he even in this like post addresses the fear of retaliation that has kind of permeated a lot of the rumors surrounding these four guys. But he assures the public, listen, any tipster who comes forward, you will remain anonymous. And this works, like the floodgates open with tips.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1579.769

And the first person to come forward is a woman named Andrea, who, according to Bill McDonald's reporting for the Winnipeg Sun, tells detectives that she heard Dwayne Johnston brag about the murder at a party one night back in 1972, back when she was 14. She says that at one point during this party, Dwayne stood up, he whispered,

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1599.128

made stabbing motions with his hand and admitted to stabbing her over and over. And he was laughing about it and later said that it felt great to kill someone. There's a second woman that comes forward and says that she too heard that Dwayne had killed Betty. But one of his friends threatened to kill her if she ever told anyone.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1620.492

Then the third witness that comes forward is a local sheriff named Gerald Robertson. And Gerald tells Urbanowski that he'd been drinking at the Legion one night with his buddy Lee when the bartender brought over a vodka and orange juice and set it in front of Lee. And he's like, this is courtesy of the RCMP. That drink is called a screwdriver. That's a screwdriver.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1645.792

Apparently the local cops used to do this to Lee like all the time for years because like they always felt like he was not only the person, but in the group of people who are the persons, like he was potentially the weak link or like. In their chain of silence, he was the one that maybe they could break. Like, if they could wear him down enough, maybe he would talk one day.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1665.891

So Gerald's sitting down with him. He gets this screwdriver. After the drink arrives, Lee gets really upset, and he just starts telling Gerald. Again, not like he's not doing this all around. People have been hearing these rumors for so long. He starts telling Gerald about how he was there, how police won't leave him alone ever since. And at that point, Gerald, like,

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1684.947

hustled Lee out of the bar into his camper where they had another drink. He's like kind of like, I don't think trying to open the floodgates even more. And He gets him to just start talking. Lee tells him the whole story of Betty's murder. I'm sorry, when is this happening? This was the drinks and stuff like at the Legion. This is happening in like 1977 or 78.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

171.851

Now, it takes some time to get investigators all the way out to where they are. But by 1.45 in the afternoon, they have a team on site who is processing everything, gathering evidence. The victim looks to be in her late teens. She's small with kind of short, shaggy, dark hair that's kind of matted in clumps. Her skin is swollen and purple and she is pale.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1711.416

A sheriff. Not like the sheriff in charge of the investigation, but... But still a law enforcement officer. Mm-hmm. Why are we talking about it so many years later then? I don't know. I imagine he feels like he's getting the same, right? Like, this isn't the first time he's opened up. I imagine he feels like he's getting the same story that all these people around town have been getting.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1730.107

Surely, police must know about it. Like, we see that all the time.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1738.833

Right, right. But now that they're like, again, this... Request for information opens up. This guy calls in to be like, just to make sure you know that this happened. And they're like, no, we didn't know. This is helpful. So after Urbanowski submits everything he's learned to the attorney general's department, and despite not having much new in the way of physical evidence, charges are approved.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1763.965

I don't know what changed because, again, they don't have more now. Like, I don't know if the sources seem more credible. I don't know if the number of stories they have or people coming forward is just— But the witness statements are enough. Yeah. So Lee is arrested in October of 1986, followed by Dwayne Johnston's arrest a few weeks later. And what about the other two guys?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1783.634

So they're not arrested. There are a couple reasons for that. First of all, the people who come forward with information— None of them had anything to say about Norm and Jim. Like, all the stories were about Lee and Dwayne. And I don't know, they might be thinking that Lee, I mean, again, Lee's the one that seems like the weak link to them.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1801.568

They might be thinking that if they can get a confession out of him, then they can, if there was other people involved.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1807.532

Exactly. But initially, Lee and Dwayne pulled out. They refused to tell investigators what happened that night, which is... is a far cry from how Lee, in particular, has been acting for the last 15 years. Again, I think they thought they were going to put pressure on him. And fold right away. Yeah, they're going to get the whole story.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1824.504

But he clammed up, refusing to implicate himself or his friends until right before his preliminary hearing in 1987. That's when he says, I'll give you everything. And I'll give you what you need to arrest Jim Houghton. But in exchange, I want full immunity. Full immunity. Full immunity.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1845.694

And as painful as it is, without Lee's testimony, frankly, even with his testimony, the Crown prosecutor knows that the defense is going to run a freight train through the holes in their case. There is no slam dunk physical evidence. Like we are just starting to like think about maybe someday the idea. Right. Right. It would be another year before DNA shows up in the Canadian courtroom.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1871.48

So it literally is not a thing at this point. So what might be physical evidence today was just circumstantial back in the 80s. You have four possible suspects, each of whom could have been the one to kill Betty. Like, they need Lee's testimony if they're going to secure a conviction, any convictions, even if it means he walks away. So with his immunity secured, Lee spills his guts.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1895.16

He says that on Friday night, November 12th, 1971, he borrowed his father's car, and he, Norm Manger, and Jim Houghton went into town to drink and just, like, cruise around. They went to the Legion, then just drove around some, and then they met up with Dwayne Johnston.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1912.614

As the Friday night crowd was starting to thin out, they decided that they wanted to find an indigenous girl to party with, as in have sex with. And they were going to do this whether this was woman that they found consented or not, which just shows you what their intentions, I think, were from the beginning.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1931.272

According to Sherry Noreen's reporting for the Thompson Citizen, this whole driving around looking for a girl to party with, again, this is like an indigenous girl specifically, this was common practice around this time. And the girl they found on that night was Betty. But Betty had no interest in even talking to these guys, let alone sleeping with any of them.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

194.009

I mean, chest, head, neck, face in dozens of these tiny stab wounds. So it is clear that she suffered a vicious and brutal attack, one that went on long after she stopped fighting. And this might get kind of graphic, so content advisory, but investigators describe kind of this scene.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1953.516

But like I said, they're not going to take a simple no for an answer. So they pulled over the car. Dwayne got out to try at first to convince her to come with them. But when that didn't work, he forced her into the backseat and the car took off. At this point in the night, Lee says that Jim was behind the wheel with Norm in the front passenger seat.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1972.472

And Betty was in the backseat between Lee and Dwayne. They decided to go to Jim's family cottage near Clearwater Lake. The guys are all still drinking at this point, and they were trying to get Betty to drink more too, but she was refusing. She was telling them that she didn't want to. She was begging them to let her go. And that's when things turned violent.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

1992.185

Dwayne began ripping off Betty's shirt and bra and started to sexually assault her. Now, Lee says he wasn't just like sitting back there watching. He was engaged in it too. He was groping her at this point. But Betty was not going down without a fight. She was clawing at them to the point where Lee says that he thought she was going to like gouge Dwayne's eyes out or something.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2015.544

So instead of stopping, he held her arms down. So Dwayne could continue assaulting her. Now, when they got to the cottage, they all got out of the car. And Lee says that he, Jim and Norm all stood around drinking while Dwayne kept going, kept assaulting Betty.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2040.356

Well, at first, that's how he positions it. Like, I mean, again, we know he like holds her down in the car, but he basically like at first he says, yeah, it's all Dwayne. We're just kind of sitting there. We're not stopping it. But in the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry's final report, he does end up admitting that he took part in the beating at this point of the night as well.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2058.965

Now, he says they weren't at the cottage for very long because Betty wouldn't stop screaming and they started to worry that someone was going to hear her. So they put her back in the car and they drive even farther out of town where they knew it would be deserted. Again, we knew they knew the area. Out to the lake. Mm-hmm. Lee says that when they got there, Duane took Betty out of the car...

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2081.377

but that the other three stayed inside and just kept drinking. He says every so often they would hear banging against the side or the back of the car. He was pretty sure that that was the sound of Betty being beaten even further. But again, none of them did anything to stop it. None of them did anything to help her. And Lee tells them that after five or ten minutes, the banging stopped.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2105.429

And at some point after that, Jim got out of the car. Betty was still alive at that point. Like, Lee could see her when the interior light went on. More time passed, and then Dwayne came back to the car, reached under the seat for a screwdriver, and then he left again. Lee said that he and Norm waited a little bit longer before... But, like, it felt endless.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2128.372

So he climbed up into the driver's seat and turned the car around. And at that point, he says he yelled out the window for the guys to just hurry up. No one answers at first. So he's like, OK, we're going to leave without you. And then someone said back, just a minute. And not long after, Jim and Dwayne were back in the car.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

214.158

halo of blood that was around her head, almost like someone had stomped on her face and made it so the blood was going out of the tiny stab wounds that were made. I mean, it was that bad. The word that came up so many times over and over again in Lisa's book was the word frenzy. This was a frenzied attack. It looked like whoever did this was Angry and frantic, vicious even.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2145.957

And then one of them, he doesn't remember which one, said simply, she's dead. Now, Lee says that he remembers the screwdriver being wiped off and thrown out the window while they were driving back into town. And he says they all parted ways once they got back to the PAW. But before he and Jim split for the night, they made this pact to keep whatever happened quiet between them.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2168.535

And it's a pact that they later brought both Dwayne and Norm into as well. Now, the problem with this is that even with Lee's story, detectives still don't know who actually wielded the weapon that killed Betty Osborne. Now, they think the likeliest candidate was probably Dwayne for a couple of reasons.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2189.324

First, he's already associated with the bikers in the pop, which like they're not technically a motorcycle gang in the organized sense, but they're also not like polite, upstanding, law-abiding citizens either. Second, he is also well known in town for his racist views and his treatment of indigenous people, men and women alike.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2209.007

And more importantly, he had been the guy overheard at a party that time talking about what it felt like to kill someone.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2226.016

That's the implication. Either way, it's enough to get an arrest warrant for Jim, which they do in March of 1987. Then later that year in November, Dwayne and Jim stand trial for the first-degree murder of Helen Betty Osborne. And this is just over 16 years after her murder actually took place. Whatever happened with Norm?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2249.451

He never gets charged. And listen, he said he was there, but he was super drunk. It was awful. He said he didn't have anything to do with it. And part of Lee's whole story was that Norm was so disturbed by what was going on that he like curled up into a ball underneath the dash just like... crying and whimpering. So, I mean, it still puts him there.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2270.183

Like, it still puts you not helping, not stopping, not talking. But I guess they didn't feel like they had enough to actually take him to trial. So this trial against Dwayne and Jim, the only trial they're going to have to hold anyone accountable, this gets underway in November of 1987. Truly in front of a jury of the killer's peers, all white, made up primarily of working class men.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2298.427

The Crown argues that Dwayne and Jim, along with Lee and Norm, saw Betty walking down the streets in the PAW, forced her into their car, drove her out to the lake where she was beaten and sexually assaulted. And at the end of the night, they basically realized they'd gone too far, and so they killed her to avoid any kind of accountability.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2317.923

At trial, Lee Colgan was, of course, the star witness, along with Norm and several people from the PAW who'd been told about the murder over the years. I don't know, like maybe that freaking sheriff? Yes. So the sheriff is one of the witnesses who testifies at this trial about knowing, at least in broad strokes, the details of the crime and who committed it.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2337.785

And he becomes kind of a lightning rod, actually. So according to Heidi Graham's reporting for the Winnipeg Sun, after he testifies, there are calls for a full public inquiry, not just about this sheriff and his role in keeping this secret, but about the whole system. Yeah, thing and why it took so long for police to charge someone.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2358.633

So this sheriff ends up getting investigated by the attorney general. And within a couple of months, he's transferred to another job. Apparently, they'd wanted to fire him, but they weren't confident it would hold up with the employees' union. So, anyways, he's one of the witnesses who takes the stand over the course of this seven-day trial.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2375.858

Each person telling the same story about the same crime committed by the same men. Information that they had known for well over a decade without telling police.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2390.445

It is later. And I mean, they do. But actually, the trial is far more about testimony than it is about physical evidence. Like I know they definitely bring forward all that stuff, the screwdriver, the blood, the hair, the backseat of Lee's car. But the physical evidence is very much like in the whole of this, like second to the testimonies.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

24.061

And it feels all too familiar, even in 2025. This is the story of Helen Betty Osborne. It's a cold, gray morning in November 1971, and a 14-year-old named Kenneth is fishing with his father on Clearwater Lake in northern Manitoba. And of course, by fishing, when you're a kid, I mean he's like sitting there and sitting there. He's not moving. He's not talking. It's for hours.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

241.443

And what's interesting is they did take time to hide her clothing because several items of hers were hidden under some rocks down closer by the lake. And the person who stabbed and stomped her and the person who's hiding her clothing might not be the same person because there are two sets of footprints, one on each side of the victim's body.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2414.503

Which is part of why I think that it played like second fiddle. All in all, the jury deliberates for a grand total of, I think this is the lowest I've ever seen, 30 minutes. And the verdict, or should I say verdicts, this is a little surprising, Jim is acquitted and Dwayne is found guilty of second degree murder.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2440.11

Mm-hmm.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2448.737

Mm-hmm.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2453.922

It's not great math.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2459.219

It has a lot to do with who they are. Like, when you look at the makeup of this, like, Dwayne, the one guy who they get a conviction on, he has always known to be this racist lowlife, like, right up until his arrest. I mean, there were intimate partner violence rumors about Dwayne too, rumors that were denied by the women he'd been with. But it's not unthinkable.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2481.748

I think when they're looking at the people in front of them, it's not unthinkable that this guy might do something like what was done to Betty. But here's the thing, like, Jim, by the time that this trial comes around, again, this is like 16 years later. It's the by the time that's frustrating. Exactly. He's got a wife. He's got a good job. The kids, the white picket fence, the whole deal.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2503.777

I mean, Jim is literally like coaching his kid's hockey team and barbecuing with neighbors on the weekend. I think people just like, they're like, but he's a good guy. He's a nice guy.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2524.484

If you're a nice guy now?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2529.426

Like, it's also frustrating that like...

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2531.887

he's a nice guy is the reason it took so long to get here in the first place right like when they're like oh it's only this one guy's car but he's a nice guy right he's a nice guy is everything that's wrong with this case and again like i'm sorry do nice guys sit by while a woman is being murdered right like that's not a nice guy that's not a nice guy and not only like the thing you did but even keeping it secret all those years like what you did to betty's family too

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2557.369

Like, you chose every day to put yourself above them.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2569.433

Yeah. And speaking of that, a mockery of justice, Dwayne was sentenced to life in prison for Betty's murder, which feels good. Yeah. But he only serves 10 years. And he was released in 1997. Wow.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2591.427

Yes. Now what I will say is that I don't think the only cell is a prison. Like it gives me a little bit of solace that even when the system fails, sometimes there is something in the universe, even if it's a person's own conscious, that tries to set things right.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2610.336

Like with Lee, for example, I don't think it's a coincidence that despite having every opportunity in life and the unwavering support of his family, even though by all accounts he didn't deserve it, Lee went fully off the rails after the murder. He kind of just spiraled into drug and alcohol use. He couldn't hold a job. He has all these run-ins with police, domestic violence.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

262.386

And there's even drag marks showing that they pulled her by her arm. So it's not like it was her footprints and someone else's. This is someone else there, a third person.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2632.372

And I mean, it gets so bad that after he was arrested, they had to hold him in a secure hospital room so he didn't die detoxing in a cell. So like those 16 years he, I mean, and more he had freed, I don't think they were happy years. He's since died and the others have kind of just faded into obscurity. I know I had the team try and find out what they were doing now, but like couldn't really.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2657.089

But I like I understand keeping a low profile because their names will forever be tied to this prolific case. A case that should not have taken over a decade to solve. And I think everyone knows it's their fault that it did.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2670.882

In April 1988, the government of Manitoba established the public inquiry into the administration of justice and Aboriginal people to look at the circumstances surrounding the investigation into Betty's murder. And the final report says it better than I ever could. So, Brett, I'm going to have you read it.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

271.192

Now, she didn't look like she'd been out there very long, less than a day, which is a lucky break because unlike in the warmer months when folks spend time at the cabins surrounding the lake, this area is pretty much deserted in November. Like, if not for Kenneth getting antsy, if not for his dad making them wait it out in silence, if not for the fish that day refusing to bite,

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2728.943

Amen. Amen.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2730.75

Starting in 2021, a memorial fund was established in Helen Betty Osborne's name through the National Center for Truth and Reconciliation at the University of Manitoba. The goal of the scholarship is to provide financial support to full-time post-secondary Indigenous students living in Manitoba.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2749.01

But even more than that, these students are recognized for their dedication and commitment to dismantling, quote, the barriers of racism, sexism, violence, and indifference in society, including those impacted by the missing and murdered Indigenous people genocide and or survivors of gender-based violence, end quote.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2769.704

Thanks to all of you who listen and who are in the fan club, AudioChuck was able to make a donation to the memorial fund in Betty's name. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

2800.179

We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

292.609

she may not have been found until the next spring, if at all.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

298.952

Maybe. And if so, that means that the killers knew the area. But the question is, did they know the victim? Well, in order to find that out, they need to know who she is, which is a difficult task given the injuries to her face and her head. Over the next several hours, police will end up bringing in a total of 31 people to try and identify their Jane Doe.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

322.148

But no one can of these 31 people, like friends and family of potentially missing people. Now, in this time when they're bringing in person after person, there is a missing persons report that comes in from The Paw. The Paw is the nearest town about 25, 30 minutes away from this lake where they found the Jane Doe.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

340.599

Now, this missing persons report is for a 19-year-old named Helen Betty Osborne who goes by Betty, according to the woman who files the report. And that woman is Patricia Benson. She is who Betty was living with. And I'll touch on that in just a moment, like the dynamic there. Now, according to what Patricia tells police, Betty hadn't come home after being out the night of November 12th.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

362.889

She is found on the 13th. So this is like really soon. Patricia's husband, William, is one of the 31 people actually who they brought in to potentially identify the Jane Doe. But even when they bring him in, he can't. I mean, that's how bad this is. But they're so bad, he also can't say that it's not her either.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

382.42

So they end up sending an officer to the Bensons' house to lift fingerprints from Betty's school books to compare to the victim. And that is when she's finally identified. Now, when her full autopsy is completed, everyone is truly shocked to learn what this young woman endured. I mean, it was almost unspeakably brutal. She had been stabbed a total of 56 times.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

407.295

11 of those were in the heart, and the rest were to her face and the back of her head. And according to Bill McDonald reporting for the Winnipeg Sun, he said that these stab wounds, I told you they were kind of like small, they were like a little strained, but he reported that they were most likely from a screwdriver.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

424.705

Now, one injury to the lower back of her head stands out from the others because it is over two inches deep, and the weapon went through her skull immediately. and over an inch and a half into her brain. This is how severe this is. Her skull, her cheekbones, the roof of her mouth, all broken. Her lungs were damaged. A kidney was torn.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

445.236

She has bruises all over her body, which may have been caused by someone beating her with their hands or their feet or some kind of blunt weapon. And her injuries are so severe that it's impossible to tell exactly which one of these led to her death. and when during the attack she might have died. But this is, without a doubt, a homicide.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

466.837

So the next day, the investigators go back out to the area where she was found with a police dog. And about three quarters of a mile from the crime scene, they find gloves. They find a couple pieces of a white cotton bra. They find a paper bag. All of this stuff is covered in blood. And about a half mile from the airport, in a ditch, they find a flathead screwdriver also covered in blood. Oh.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

494.488

So this, they're thinking, has got to be their murder weapon or at least one of them, because it turns out that another screwdriver had also been found by a civilian. I guess this airport employee, he'd been like driving in the area on the afternoon of the 13th.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

510.521

And he'd found like a whole different screwdriver on the road, which he had just like tossed in his trunk, thought nothing of it until he heard about the murder. So he brought that one to police. He feels like, you know, this could be really promising lead. There's actually a name engraved on the screwdriver, Hanson or Ranson, something like that. And I assume that one wasn't covered in blood.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

529.626

I don't think so. Or I would hope that he didn't just like a red flag situation. I would hope he didn't just like throw it in his car and be like, oh, now that I know about a murder, this screwdriver with blood. But I don't know that for sure. But either way, covered in blood, not covered in blood. They obviously like see the potential in this and they collect this as evidence.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

547.302

Is this a second murder weapon? We don't know. Now, another lead that comes to police is in the form of this taxi driver named Philip, who tells police that he was driving along that same highway where the screwdriver was found sometime after 4 a.m. the morning of the 13th, after he had just dropped off two customers.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

567.195

And he said as he's driving, he ends up behind a car that was like all over the road, just like zigzagging around. He said the driver was very obviously drunk, like the car almost went into a ditch at one point. And he says the vehicle was a white or a light blue car. And, oh, by the way, this doesn't happen in most cases, he got a peek at the license plate, which included the numbers 4 and 2.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

592.309

How close does that get them to somebody?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

596.671

It helps, so... They go from, like, you know, every car, every light-colored car, to a list of 5,000 cars. 5,000-plus people with a whiter, light-blue car, and the numbers 2 and 4 somewhere in the license plate. But while one option is to go down the list... One by one, and maybe you'll get there in a few years. Like, you know, hopefully it's the first one, but, you know, you never know.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

620.972

The other option is to do some investigative work and use this list more as like a cross-reference, right? Which that's the route they decide to go in. And they start by retracing Betty's steps on the night of her murder. Now, quick backstory. Betty is indigenous and she wasn't living with her family at the time. She was living with the Bensons. I told you I'd mentioned Patricia Benson.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

646.785

She was living with them while she went to high school because she was born on a reserve where the schooling only went up to eighth grade. So she was taking part in this government sponsored program where indigenous students could board with a local family to finish high school. Which I can't even imagine. Like that has to be so hard. Like disruptive.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

665.923

You're already in this very like awkward time of your life. But Betty was super ambitious. She wanted to eventually go to college to be a teacher or a nurse or a lawyer. Like she had big dreams and she was working really hard to achieve them. So, her last night at the Bensons' home, the 12th, she ate dinner with the family at around 6, then she went out to visit a friend at the hospital.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

688.096

While she was there, she ran into an old friend of hers, this guy named George, and then the two of them decided to just grab a few beers together, head to the Bensons to kind of just catch up. Reminder, we're in 1971 Canada, my U.S. friends, like beers at 19. A-OK. Right. But by 10, 1030, Mrs. Benson said, like, listen, it's time to wrap it up.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

705.869

But Betty and George weren't ready to call it a night. So they head downtown where they meet up with a few more friends. Now, around 11, the crew is walking past a hotel and Betty saw her boyfriend with some other friends of his in the lobby of this hotel.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

719.964

Her boyfriend's name is Cornelius Biggity, and author Lisa Preece actually interviewed him when she was writing her book, and she described him as kind of, you wouldn't guess it with this name, but like this Casanova playboy type, as evidenced by the fact that it wasn't just friends he was with that night. Cornelius was actually with another girl that night, and Betty wasn't happy about it.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

746.124

The two of them had gotten into a big fight over this and it ended in Betty and her friends leaving. After that, they went back to the Bensons. They had a couple more drinks in a shutout back because, again, Mrs. Benson's like too late. And then around midnight, the other friends left and Betty and George went back downtown again. But by 1230, George was over it. It's cold. It was dark.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

769.71

It wasn't exactly a great time of night to be walking around in the PA, especially if you're indigenous and both Betty and George are. So George went home, but Betty didn't want to.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

781.239

Yes, she was. And police can put her outside the hotel again at around 1245. She's just like walking by. Then we know she's seen at a Legion dance at around 2 in the morning. And they actually find a witness who saw her walking down the street after she left the dance. This was around like 2.15. Then after 2.15, she's like off the grid.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

806.18

Initially, he's like the main suspect. They bring him into the police station. They question him. And they don't go easy. I mean, at one point, they even show him a picture of Betty's body. Like that's actually how he finds out that his girlfriend is dead. Like he hadn't known yet when they did that.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

81.965

He's like just hoping they might get a fish. So you can imagine Kenneth gets kind of antsy. So he tells his dad that he's just going to go for a walk, see if he can find any rabbit tracks in the snow or something like that.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

822.508

But ultimately, they end up ruling him out after he passes a polygraph, which we see all the time in the 70s. So they quickly move on, and by the end of November, they have talked to everyone in Betty's circle, all the cottage owners around Clearwater Lake where she was found.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

839.097

I mean, half the town pretty much has been talked to, and they still haven't got a clue who she was with after 2-15 or how she ended up all the way out at the lake. Because, by the way, someone would have had to have driven her out there. Like, she might have been able to walk from the Bensons to downtown and back. Like, that was super easy.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

860.05

Yeah. You would need a car. It's like a 30-minute drive. So, like, it's not like she's making this walk. It's not even walkable, really. It may be, but certainly not in the dead of winter, right? At night. Right. So... With the good old gumshoeing, not getting them very far, they decide, okay, listen, we tried working it this way. We should maybe go back to our list of over 5,000 cars.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

882.723

Maybe we actually just need to go down that one by one because we don't have anyone to cross-reference or everyone we are cross-referencing is getting ruled out.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

890.106

But still, they can't start at 5,000. They got to find a way to narrow it down a little bit. So what they decide to do, another fun 70s thing, they decide to bring Philip, the taxi driver, back in and this time put him under hypnosis to see if maybe he can remember a few more of the license plate letters. And this time he gives them four numbers, this time in sequence, 5-342.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

915.243

Which narrows that list of 5,000 plus possible cars down to just 28. And even better, only one of them is registered to an owner in the pub. The owner is a guy by the name of Bud Colgan. And seeing his name is completely puzzling to police because they know Bud. Like good know him or bad know him? Bud's a good guy. Bud's got a wife and kids.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

94.008

Now it's about 11.30 in the morning and Kenneth is next to this pump house on his way back down to the lake when according to coverage in the Winnipeg Sun, some strange tracks in the snow catch his eye. And he's a curious kid, so he follows the tracks into the thick bush. The snow is crunching beneath him and that's when he comes upon the body of a woman.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

943.127

He's like definitely not your murder a teenager kind of guy.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

952.013

No, they say no. They're like, no, what a weird thing that he just ended up on our list. Like, I actually don't believe that they question Bud at all. Now, part of the reason might be because I know that his car had been stopped sometime around the time of the murder as a like part of a routine traffic stop. And at the time, it wasn't Bud driving. It was his son, Lee, who was driving.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

975.937

And when I say around the time of Betty's murder, I can't find an exact date. So I don't know if this was like a routine traffic stop. Like, I don't think they were setting up roadblocks or anything like that. I don't even know If we're talking days or weeks or how they even like made the connection that someone saw his car. But basically they were like, oh, we saw his car around that time too.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne

993.413

And there was like nothing fishy in the car. So can't be like, I know it doesn't make sense, but like it doesn't make sense. Like I think they use that as part of the reason to like write him off or write off the car.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm Ashley Flowers.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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But according to Royston Walker's book, someone who lives down the street from Jimmy reports to police that his house was robbed and he is convinced that Jimmy did it. He is also confident that Jimmy knows about the murders of Ethan and Kimberly or was maybe involved in them.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1031.78

I know. If he did, I don't know. Like all I know is that we get to him somehow or like that they make this suggestion. And I do know that police look into this afterwards and maybe give it some weight because on October 7th, they release a description and a sketch of someone that they're looking for who they also associate with the black or dark colored Monte Carlo.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

104.609

And as they pull out, the headlights catch on some tire tracks that lead to a Volkswagen hatchback idling in a little gravel area of the park. Now, one of Terry's responsibilities is to scope out any cars left in the park past closing, which was about an hour earlier. So this is literally the gig. And Terry gets out to investigate.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1053.173

So I said it kind of all comes full circle. And while there's no mention of this publicly at the time, Deputy Chief Campbell later indicates that this sketch looked a lot like our guy, Jimmy. White male, about 24 years old, 150 to 160 pounds, slender build, brown hair, parted down the middle, acne scarred face. And this guy apparently wears gold wire glasses.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1076.24

But on the other flip side of this, this guy apparently looked a lot like other people, too.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1085.192

Yeah. Because when they put this sketch out to the papers or whatever, they get a lot of calls, like somewhere between 100 and 200 calls about it. Police take all these calls and they kind of narrow them down to get a list about like a dozen people. And they do this by like seeing who was named the most. But none of those actually lead to a huge breakthrough.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1108.512

Not even the Jimmy stuff, I guess, because I don't see him come back up yet. So they're starting to hit a wall early on, which is maybe why police decide to cast a wider net, looking beyond just their crime, even to other crimes that feel kind of similar or happen not too far away.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1126.539

Like maybe if this is part of some larger pattern, that will tell them something about their killer and where to find them. And I know specifically they looked at two cases. There was one that was local, one that wasn't. The first was an assault of a woman that took place in the summer at another park in a nearby county. And in that attack, the suspect might have had or been in a Monte Carlo.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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Then in the second case, that one happened five years earlier, a few states away in Kansas, where two young people were shot while sitting in their car. And on the surface, both of those, like that crime and this one, have similar elements. But ultimately, police can't connect them in any way to one another. Same with the other one. So they're kind of at another dead end.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1171.159

And investigators turn their focus to some more like experimental investigative tactics like hypnosis.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1182.963

It's mostly those witnesses that were at the park that night to see if they can remember any more details about like the car. I'm assuming car license plate, whatever. Here's the problem, though, like the way they were doing this hypnosis veers like pretty far into unethical territory, if you ask me, because according to the Star Press, before being hypnotized, one of the witnesses said,

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1203.114

Who was actually an off duty officer who was in the park that night? Listen, I know I hear it like I have the same questions, but it sounds like this guy. They vetted him because I have the same like, oh, like Terry things like we've seen this before. He's vetted. He has an alibi, whatever. I mean, alibi is always in the park. I think he was with someone else that night.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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But anyways, this guy was shown some pictures of cars, including the one that Don was driving that night, which was Nancy's car. And then he's shown a photo of Don before the hypnosis.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1236.833

Which is what it feels like. It feels like they're being like, here's the guy that the chief is very interested in.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1244.375

Yeah. But even them doing this, again, I said it's unethical, but even when they did it, Like nothing tying Don to the killings even comes from this. So whatever they were trying didn't even work. But I do think it gives a glimpse to where investigators' heads were. For Deputy Chief Campbell, all roads were still leading back to Don.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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There doesn't appear to be any movement coming from inside the car. But as he approaches and puts his flashlight through the open driver's side window, he gets the shock of his life. There are two teenagers, a boy and a girl, shot dead in the front seats.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1262.96

And he, at that point, is tired of Don's perceived unwillingness to cooperate. So he decides to try and put pressure on publicly. In September 1986, Deputy Chief Campbell says publicly that a person related to the case refuses to come in for a second interview. And though he didn't explicitly say Don's name, everyone pretty much knows that's who he's talking about.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1289.52

And when asked about a motive, the chief says all they have are rumors and no real motive in this case. Listen, I don't know what the rumors are that he's referring to. You're going to tell me. If they're even real. But again, nothing really happens in the case. And a full year goes by. And really, even then, nothing happens in the case itself.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1311.537

That full year, that's just when Kimberly's family is hit with yet another tragedy. Because on Christmas Eve 1987, Kimberly's mother, this is Dawn's wife, Nancy, unexpectedly dies of a heart attack. The police at the time decide to have an autopsy done on Nancy to rule out any kind of foul play, which Don even agrees to, like presumably to get these guys off his back.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1335.507

And ultimately nothing is found. It was a heart attack. So over the next few years, Kimberly and Ethan's case just kind of stalls out. There are rumors that swirl through Muncie about what could have happened to them. But there doesn't seem to be anything like tangible police latch on to.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1355.854

Yeah, so I don't have examples about, like, if the rumors that the chief was talking about were in relation to Don. I don't know any rumors in relation to him. But they ran the gamut, really. Like, I mean, there was one that centered around the son of a politically connected family. Then there was one about someone who showed up at a party dressed as Rambo on the night of the murders.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1374.861

And then in one of the wilder accusations, a guy was convinced that a woman he knew might have committed the murders. Like, And he thinks this woman, who I assume is like his girlfriend or something, like someone he knows intimately, basically he assumes that she mistook Ethan for him in the car and like thought she caught him cheating and then committed the murders.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1396.888

Again, there's no real meat to any of those stories. So police continue to look high and low and wide and far. And they do get at least one decent lead that they do follow in the early 90s. Two investigators go to interview a man named Steve who's in prison on an armed robbery charge. Unclear if Steve reached out to them or how his name might have come up.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1421.996

But he tells investigators that the murders stemmed from a marijuana deal that had gone bad in the park. He said the three men involved in the deal decided to mess with or take it out on a couple parked in a car. Which feels like a promising tip knowing there was at least that one sighting early on of three people outside of the kid's car.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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In the book, The West Side Park Murders, Muncie's most notorious cold case, it says that both the front seats were reclined with like sleeping bags draped over them and the passenger side window was shattered. The guy who's in the driver's seat has been shot in the torso and the girl who's in the passenger's seat was shot in the head.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1444.245

But it feels a little less promising when they're told the couple was killed with a shotgun, which like we know isn't true. But still detectives are like, OK, listen, we got we got to at least like continue following this through. Like this line of investigation might lead somewhere. And the victim's family wants that also. So much so that Ethan's family believes.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1462.125

pays for a trip to Virginia where a woman supposedly can corroborate Steve's story. But unfortunately, when the detectives get down there and interview her, she ends up admitting that the whole thing is a hoax. And another inmate tells police that the whole thing was Steve's effort to try and get some kind of deal or get like early release.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1500.55

Yeah, I don't I just don't I don't think criminals have the same code of ethics, right, that you and I do. Like they're operating like a completely different field and context. Like in their minds, everyone is fair game. Like I don't think they see a difference between like someone they know or someone they're in jail with or a victim's family. Anything to save their own skin. Right.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1521.783

So, I mean, you get how it goes. Same as in so many cold cases. Random tips and pointing fingers and a case file that gets dusted off just every so often for a fresh set of eyes to take a crack at it. And that's where it was in 2012. when Detective Nathan Sloan first starts working Kimberly and Ethan's case.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1541.748

Now, he spends about two weeks locked away with this case file, and when Detective Sloan emerges, there is a familiar name on investigators' radar again. I swear to God, Ashley, if you say it's Don... It's not Don. It's someone else. You see, while the deputy chief all those years ago was paying so much attention to Don... More and more tips about Jimmy Swingley kept coming in.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1568.419

Remember, he's the one who'd been accused of robbing that guy's place and the guy accused him of also maybe being involved in the murders. Well, here's what's interesting. So the first tip about him came in like a week into the investigation. And then a couple of months into the investigation, they got another tip, a more specific tip from someone said to have been close to Jimmy.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1590.222

And this guy said that Jimmy had come to his house on the night of the murders. And he told this guy that a drug deal went bad and the teenagers ended up dead. And there were two other men with Jimmy.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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And he said that one of them pulled the gun out and the holster came out with it. And that's how it ended up in the car.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1619.478

So it doesn't sound like it. And like more than just like from their parents, right, who like most of the time are like, I don't think so. According to the book, police also talked to other kids that knew them, too. And none of them said that either of these two were involved in drugs. So if this was some kind of drug deal gone bad, it seems more likely.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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It's not long before the entire place is crawling with police and investigators take note of the fact that there are no signs of a struggle and no signs that point to this being motivated by a robbery. Nothing appears to have been taken from the car as far as they can tell. I mean, like there's even literally a portable stereo still in the back.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1636.587

That they were in the wrong place, wrong time. Like, if you remember that, like, other rumor we heard, it was like there was a drug deal gone bad and they took it out on two kids. And maybe that's what really happened.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1652.372

Oh, yeah. That could be.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1655.233

Yeah, whatever happened, Jimmy's name wouldn't go away. Detective Sloan sees several more instances where people point to Jimmy over the years. Some say that Jimmy admitted to the killings or to knowing something about what happened that night. And he also sees that at some point in 87, police had given Jimmy a lie detector test, which he failed. But they didn't have anything to hold.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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You can't, you know, arrest someone on a polygraph. So, like, they end up letting him go.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1689.932

True, maybe. And listen, by 2012, Jimmy had been free to live a lot of life. Lots that Detective Sloan had to dig through. And he finds that he apparently hightailed it out of town shortly after the murders, which is interesting. Like within a couple of months, there are records of him being arrested all the way down in Florida. Yeah.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1712.506

And he continues carrying out a lengthy criminal history over the next decade. And there's this one blip in his record that stands out, at least to me amongst others. It didn't involve like a violent offense, but the circumstances were a little chilling. So the Westside Park Murders book notes that at one point, Jimmy was pulled over for blowing a stop sign.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1735.653

And apparently he didn't have his license or he refused to give it. And when police ask him for his name, the name that he gives to me is like a huge red flag. So he tells police that his name is Kevin Dixon.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1752.663

I mean, it's Ethan's last name. I can't speak for Jimmy and why he picked that last name. And there's nothing in the book about police like putting two and two together at the time. But like, it's just so odd that I felt like I had to mention it. I don't, it's weird.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1769.939

Oh, alive and kicking. And Detective Sloan knows right where to find him. I told you he had a real run in Florida, but his decade of criminal activity stopped in 1999 when he was convicted of murdering a man named Brian Insko. Like violently. Brian was found in his own apartment with his throat cut, like nearly decapitated is how it's described.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1794.596

And so Jimmy ends up getting sentenced to 65 years in prison for that, where he's still hanging out in 2012. Yeah. Now, Detective Sloan wants to be totally solid before he goes talking to him. So he continues to try and run down old leads about Jimmy, tries to run down new leads about Jimmy.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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And they see an open pocket knife just sitting on the dashboard. But the murder weapon, the gun, that's nowhere to be found. They just find a small, empty gun holster under the young man's body.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1812.479

And the long and the short of it is a clearer and clearer picture starts to form around what could have happened. It seems like there really were multiple people in the park and there was some kind of argument about something that And at some point, Ethan pulled a knife. Which lines up with the pocket knife in the car on the dash.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1835.097

And then the theory went on that someone in this group of people that included Jimmy fired the shots. The group then took off in the car. And whatever account he's pulling this from, he has the car not being a Monte Carlo, but one that maybe looked a lot like it or had some similarities. It was a Chrysler Cordoba car.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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Well, that's the thing. They can't. I mean, they have nothing physical tying Jimmy or anyone else to the crime. But now that he, like, has heard enough that he feels solid on what happened, Detective Sloan is finally feeling that it's time that he can go straight to Jimmy now. Like, maybe they can get something from him. So he heads to the state prison where Jimmy is being held.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1879.548

And let's just say it doesn't go well. Jimmy basically tells him to, like, F off. There's going to be no conversation.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1886.69

that's kind of the end of the line for Jimmy, but listen, detective Sloan, like, isn't just going to rest on this, like being the one and only answer. I don't know Sloan, but I like the way this man works. Like if you can't prove one theory, go try and prove others. Like best case scenario, you find out you were wrong and you do get an arrest.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

19.375

And I'm obsessed with this case not only because it took place right here in Indiana, but because some believe answers in this unsolved double murder may have been right under police's noses throughout their nearly 40-year quest for justice. This is the story of the Westside Park murders.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1904.241

Worst case scenario, you're like buttoning up your case even more, like close all those doors that a future defense team might try to use when you finally do get your guy. Yeah. So the next door he wants to explore and hopefully close or prove or whatever was that whole grieving man in the parking lot thing.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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Let's do this. So he tracks that guy's ex-wife down. She tells him that her husband was prone to drinking too much, often blacking out. And he would even get out of bed in the middle of the night and leave the house, which he had done the night police found him in that park. She also admits that she wondered if her husband could have had something to do with the murders.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1948.752

But it sounds like ultimately she doesn't think like that he actually did. I don't know if this guy is dead by this point or what. But from what I can tell, Sloan doesn't get a chance to talk to him directly. It might also be because he gets redirected with a new tip. And those are few and far between in cold cases. So like strike while the iron is hot, right?

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

197.911

Well, some accounts say sitting on it. Others just say under the body. Some say it was found in the car more broadly. I think the important thing is that it seems unlikely missing. that it would belong to one of the kids, which could mean that the killer left this thing behind. And it seems they may have left behind something else, too. Prints on or in the car.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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In 2013, the name Rafael Resendez is suggested to Detective Sloan as a possible suspect.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

1982.066

Yeah, I was just about to say, like, we've talked about him before. He is someone that gets brought up in a decent amount of cold cases from all over because of how mobile this guy was throughout the 90s. He is suspected of killing, like, 23 people. And his M.O. was to hop on and off trains. And while Indiana is not on the list, Illinois is. So he's like within shouting distance.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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And were there train tracks near the park? There were. Now, according to the book, it sounds like the earliest of Resendez's known crimes happened in 1986. He murdered a couple in Texas and at least one of those victims were shot to death with a .38. So the murder weapon lines up.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

2029.636

The majority of his known crimes, though, took place in the 90s and often involved him strangling or beating his victims to death. And unfortunately, Detective Sloan isn't able to speak to him himself because he was executed by the state of Texas in 2006. And maybe it doesn't matter because ultimately it sounds like Detective Sloan doesn't think Resendez is his guy.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

2049.653

He's able to like close that door. So whether it's a local criminal like Jimmy or a serial killer like Resendez, nothing is sticking for Sloan. And in light of closing all the doors, there is one more that Detective Sloan needs to look at probably more than anything else, like to rule in or out once and for all.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

2072.195

We're back to Dawn. You got it. In April 2013, Detective Sloan interviews Kimberly's stepfather, Don, to see what he has to say after all these years. Don's story is the same, and Sloan presses him on some of the odd things that he said to police back in the 85 interviews.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

2089.979

But according to the book, Don tells Detective Sloan that he was just tired then, and the statements didn't actually mean anything.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

2104.021

No. So according to the book, he comes away from the interview ruling Don out as a suspect. He closes the door. He also even returns two guns that police had seized from Don at one point that turned out to have nothing to do with the murder that they had like all those years. And while he's, you know, talking to Dawn and like talking to her family, he circles back to Ethan's family too.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

2125.631

And he talks to Ethan's dad, but he doesn't learn anything new or anything earth shattering all these years later. So much like back in 1986, nothing is really there to be gained from their families. However, in light of talking to families, Jimmy's family members offer investigators some new information that is very interesting.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

2150.77

Again, I'm going to give you the TLDR because, spoiler alert, everything they learn about Jimmy feels super incriminating, but it's all just hearsay that they can't actually use against him. Like, he might have had a Monte Carlo. He might have stolen a gun from a family member, and maybe that gun was used in the murders.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

2170.9

Oh, and he might have killed two other people, one of which was his brother, Jackie, whose death was ruled undetermined. And I think the whole brother story is really interesting. So in early 2014, Detective Sloan interviews Jimmy's mother and she tells him that Jackie's wife had Jimmy's baby some nine months after Jackie died.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

2196.063

She also claims that Jimmy was in the room when Jackie died back in 1981. And according to the book, she tells Sloan that she thought he was capable of committing the Westside Park murders. And she had heard a rumor that he was arrested in connection to it, which obviously we know wasn't true. But this is just to say like what everyone in the area is talking about at the time.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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Now, some of those, obviously, though, might belong to their victims, who they learn are 16-year-old Ethan Dixon and 15-year-old Kimberly Dowell. Now, they were able to ID them so quickly because while they were still on the scene processing, this guy named Don showed up. And Don tells police that he'd been out driving looking for his stepdaughter, Kimberly, who just never came home that night.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

2218.382

And it's like no matter where police look or what roads they go down, it always keeps coming back to Jimmy, who has made it clear that he is not going to cooperate willingly. But in what seems like the first lucky break they get, the courts rule that his willingness is neither here nor there.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

2238.519

According to Royston and Walker's book, on November 14th, 2018, a judge approves a warrant to get his DNA. So a few days later on the 20th, Detective Sloan and another colleague go to see Jimmy. And surprisingly, this time he is cooperative. He like lets them do the swab, which again, like they had to do. And according to the book, he sits for a 40 minute interview, which he didn't have to do.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

2263.342

But in his interview, Jimmy denies any involvement in the murders. In fact, he points to the rumor a lot of people had heard over the years that it was Kimberly's stepfather, Don.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

2279.15

So according to the book, potential DNA evidence on the holster got left behind. That like I can't tell when, but sometime between 85 and like when he's all these years later, like looking into this cold case. Obviously, they were able to like test old evidence. Yeah. But here's the thing. Whatever they have, it doesn't match Jimmy's.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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Now, despite this, Detective Sloan still seems to think that he has his guy. Remember, I mean, right, like there's potentially multiple people. But others, like former Deputy Chief Marvin Campbell, who's one of the OGs in this case, like not so sure. But without more evidence, they'll never know.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

2323.092

Here's the problem. Unfortunately, Marvin Campbell recently passed away. So I can't ask him if he still thinks it's Don or what he thinks about Don. And if others like Don were compared to the DNA or like that grieving guy or whatever, like that's never been reported on. In the book, the DNA evidence is described as being damaged and muddied.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

2345.12

So I assume that like any advanced testing like IgG is out of the question. I don't know that for a fact, though. And as far as things like, remember, they found like prints in the car, like some sources claim like one was found in the car, on the car, whatever. Like, I just know none of those helped in the case either. Chances are like the killer never even touched the car. Right.

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INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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Oh, and by the way, like we did attempt to reach out to Jimmy in prison, but haven't gotten connected. And same again. I said this earlier, but goes for the Muncie police. Now, in January of 2020, Detective Sloan became chief of police in Muncie. And according to the Star Press, as late as 2022, he continues following up on leads in this case when he can.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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Chief Sloan admits in that article that he hadn't assigned a new investigator to the case, like the time commitment and other investigators caseloads just hasn't allowed it. But I did see like, so that's the last official update from police in 2022. But I did see like something interesting on, here's my disclaimer, Reddit. Cool. But this was from 2023.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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And someone posted on a Reddit forum that their neighbor confessed about a murder that sounds like what happened in Westside Park. Now, this person doesn't name names or even a name where this happened. Again, it sounds like Westside Park, but they don't say that. But the story that this neighbor told them goes a little something like this.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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The neighbor had claimed to be involved with a girl at his high school that he very much liked. One day, he and his friend happened to be at the park where he saw this girl with another boy that he hated. So he went over to the car and shot the girl in the head and then shot the boy in the chest. And he shot the boy in the chest because he wanted to watch him suffer.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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I guess she had gone out with a guy that she'd just started dating, Ethan. He picked her up between 9 and 9.30. And the plan was for them to go get some pizza, take it over to Westside Park, eat, hang out. But they just never came back.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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It is.

Crime Junkie

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It is. And it's what some of the users in the forum wondered. But some other people felt strongly about this confession, so strongly that they contacted the police with this information, although they never heard back from them. And there were other people who were like, could this have been some kind of deathbed type confession from someone?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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Now, one big flag for me on this, besides the whole like Reddit of it all, is that the poster said the neighbor said he used a .22 caliber in the shooting, while we know it was a .38 used to kill Kimberly and Ethan. And the poster also said that he brought out a piece of evidence that he took from the car, but he doesn't say what the evidence is.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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And unless police are holding something back, the only thing that we know that they were looking for was the murder weapon, which they never found. No one like talks about anything ever being stolen or taken from them. Yeah. Yeah. So like it makes this whole confession a little more. And you can write whatever you want on the Internet. And eventually they did take this down from Reddit.

Crime Junkie

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So like it's, you know, if we got to talk to Chief Sloan, this is what I would have loved to ask him if we ever get the chance. It's what I would love to ask him about if this ever got looked into. I mean, I think it's interesting, especially when you think about when the confession says like they hated the guy knowing that Ethan was being bullied online. I don't know.

Crime Junkie

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Yeah.

Crime Junkie

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Like, that's huge. Right. And again, like, was he there or knew something? Maybe. But, like, there's someone else that we should be still looking for. Yeah.

Crime Junkie

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And I think at this point it's important to point out that no one, not Jimmy, who is due to be released from prison in 2030, by the way, and despite all the rumors, not Kimberly's stepfather Don or any of the other possible people police looked into, none of them have ever been charged in this case.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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It remains unsolved, which means Ethan Dixon and Kimberly Dowell's families have never been given the closure they deserve. So if you know anything about the murders of Ethan Dixon and Kimberly Dowell on the night of September 28th, 1985 in Westside Park, located in Muncie, Indiana, please contact the Muncie Police Department at 765-747-4867.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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And while they were concerned when the teenagers didn't return home, I mean, they hadn't called police or anything yet, which like I understand, like teenagers missing curfew or whatever is like kind of par for the course. But it becomes clear that this isn't par for the course that night when police let Don go with them to the car.

Crime Junkie

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You can also contact them anonymously through Crimestoppers at 765-286-4050. We'll also have a link to send a tip online in our show notes. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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We'll be back next week with a brand new episode, but stick around. We've got some good for you. All right, Brett. You know what time it is? You know I do. Let's talk about some of the good that comes out of the Crime Junkie community. What do you got from our listeners?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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And according to the Star Press, it's him who confirms the thing that he was most terrified of. It is Kimberly and Ethan in the car. The events of the night don't just shock Dawn and Nancy, who is Kimberly's mom. News of the shooting is spreading like wildfire. And while publicly the victims aren't being named, it didn't take long for local parents and teenagers to put two and two together.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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I mean, it's a good reminder. Like most people don't stay in a relationship thinking it's going to end in murder. Right. That's not how people get there. Like everyone thinks that they're the exception or everyone thinks it's not going to go that far or that like the person's going to change or not capable of like And that's how people end up there is underestimating their abusive partner.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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For sure. It does. It takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of work. We'll put some resources in the show notes. I know those have been helpful for a lot of people. It's amazing how many people it's been helpful for. For sure. I love you guys and I love you guys loving each other.

Crime Junkie

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Crime Junkie is an audio Chuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? No. Yeah.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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Both teenagers were students at Northside High School and by all accounts, like really standout kids. According to the Star Press, Ethan was on the debate team. He was the junior class president. Kimberly was a cheerleader recently named as part of the homecoming queen court. And a story in The Sun at the time quotes their principal describing them as very, very fine people.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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Basically saying that, like, they never caused any problems. They were never difficult. So for them to end up like this, it's hard for anyone to fathom. But that didn't mean that they were teenagers like who weren't dealing with teenager problems because police discover that Ethan had been the victim of bullying. Now, I don't know the full extent of it.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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It doesn't seem like this is something police ever really fully explore or find the need to explore. But Ethan's parents do say that at one point they had taken a knife away from him that he was keeping on him because of bullying. So when I think about that, I mean, that could be one of the reasons there was that pocket knife in the car.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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If that's what it was, and again, like, I'm making all the assumptions, but if that's what it was, part of me wonders if he had the knife on him for, like, all the reasons we just talked about. Mm-hmm. But then maybe him and Kimberly were like, you know, doing things teenagers do sometimes when they're in the park.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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And like maybe he like pulled that out of his pocket or something, like put it on the dash to be more comfortable. So I don't know. Like this is a weird fact that like I can't quite like put it in a box, but it's worth people knowing. Like it's something you'll read if you look into this story.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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Today, I am as baffled as I am consumed by this case. It's one where two teens, seemingly excelling in every way, go out for a night of fun and then are brutally shot dead in what could almost seem a targeted ambush.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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Now, there's nothing in the source material about police at the time finding anything in the way of evidence like blood or prints on the knife or even the holster for that matter. And going back to the knife, though, like it is important to say that I don't think like that was ever actually used. So like nothing like blood or whatever on that.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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But speaking of the holster, police never find any evidence that Ethan owned a gun. So it's definitely seeming like the murder weapon belonged to the perp. And then maybe this holster also belonged to the perp. And the autopsy confirms that Kimberly was killed by a gunshot wound to the left side of her head, which most likely killed her within seconds.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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Ethan died from massive blood loss caused by a gunshot wound to the left side of his chest. And both of them were shot with a .38 caliber, which they for sure did not fire. I mean, like, obviously, no gun at the scene. I think that speaks for itself. But they do check for gunshot residue on their hands anyways. And even though the results that came back later were positive...

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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That still didn't really change anything for police because there could be explanations for that. Again, I think not finding the weapon there made it clear that this was a homicide.

Crime Junkie

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Right. Oh, and the other thing I wanted to note about their autopsies, neither of them showed any signs of drugs or alcohol in their systems. Right.

Crime Junkie

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While even in Kimberly's exact time of death is unknown, the ME estimates that it could be about 11 p.m., so roughly an hour and a half to two hours after they left Kimberly's place and about 50 minutes before Officer Terry discovered their bodies, which was around 11.50 p.m.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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He was. It's possible that he was just out of earshot, though, when the shooting happened. Like, I've never seen anything about his exact location at the time, like at 11 o'clock, if it's known. But I know he's supposed to be on duty at the time. According to the Star Press, the park is like a little over 20 acres. So if you look at it on Google Maps, it's like a very long, skinny, like strip.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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So my thinking is if he's like patrolling all of it, maybe he could be on the opposite side or at least a ways away. Hmm. But even though he doesn't appear to have heard anything, there are others who did hear the shots. Investigators talked to people who say that they were in the park when gunfire rang out. I don't know who these people are who are at the park at 11 p.m.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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or how police even found them, but good job. Some of those witnesses say that they just booked it when they heard the bangs, but others claim to have been close enough to the parking lot to see three people around Kimberly and Ethan's car after the gunshots.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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And through these witness accounts, cops determined that there were between 10 and 12 other cars in the park that night, not including Ethan and Kimberly's car. And investigators zero in specifically on two cars that were parked the closest to Kimberly and Ethan around the time of the shooting. But these cars weren't there when Terry showed up.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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So there is a red one and then there is a black or some kind of dark colored one, often described as a Monte Carlo car. And it was this black one I think that they're most interested in because it was specifically said to have left right after the shots rang out. So these are either really good witnesses they have to find. Or suspects. Or suspects, right.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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And according to Royston and Walker's book, within two days of the murders, they actually might have found one of them. In the early hours of September 30th, so just two days after the murders, two Muncie police officers notice a car parked in Westside Park.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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Now, nothing in the book about what this car looked like, so I don't know if it fits the description of the cars that they were previously looking for. But considering what has recently gone down in this park, they're like checking out everything. And as they head towards this car, it like starts up and drives at them. Police were able to block the vehicle somehow.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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And when they finally talk to the driver, they can tell that he has definitely had too much to drink. And when they ask him about it, he says he's grieving. Grieving what, sir? They ask him exactly that. Like, what are you grieving for? And he replies, you know what for.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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Prepare to stay frustrated because that's about all the info that this guy gives. And this information about this guy is actually only in the book. So it is super limited. The authors don't even use his real name. But we do know that this guy gets arrested for driving under the influence. And he later tells police that he was just upset about the murders.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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I don't know much. Like, truly. Like, I just know that he had a criminal record. He had even served some time. But it sounds like primarily for a minor burglary charge, like in another state, California, actually. Nothing violent like murder. So maybe for that reason, maybe because they didn't find anything to link him to the killings.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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It's around midnight on September 28th, 1985, when Officer Terry Winters of the Muncie Police Department is on patrol in Westside Park, which literally, as its name suggests, is on the west side of the town, and it runs along the White River.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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maybe something else, this guy kind of just falls off the radar, at least from the reporting perspective. I don't know what category police put this guy in, suspect, person of interest, or some bizarre encounter.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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Yeah, that they don't know what to make of. Either way, we don't hear much more about him. Instead, police around this time seem far more interested in someone close to Kimberly. Her stepfather, Don.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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Because not only was it pretty convenient that he showed up at the park that night while they were still processing the scene, but the Star Press reports that police also discover that two witness accounts might lead back to Don and the car that he was driving that night, possibly putting him at the park before the shooting.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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So on October 4th, they bring Don in for a formal interview, and they talk to him for about six hours. And in that time, Don's story is unchanging. He said that when Kimberly wasn't home by 11 p.m., her mother Nancy got worried. And when she still wasn't home an hour and a half later, Don went out looking for her. He's like driving around, checking out local McDonald's, whatever.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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And then he was heading to the park where Nancy had thought that they might have gone. And that's when he came across all the police activity and he was told what happened. So the Star Press reports that police asked Don if he will take a polygraph, which he agrees to. Braver than me, Don. But it actually plays out in his favor. Don passes it. But that's not enough to close the book on him.

Crime Junkie

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Because while the answers he was giving were deemed to be truthful by a machine and some guy reading the machine... Other answers that he was giving to Deputy Chief Marvin Campbell in follow up questions were like kind of freaking weird. Like, for example, when asked if he was in the park, Don replies, quote, within my body, I wasn't there. OK, is that a no then? I think it's trying to be.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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And I, like you, like Deputy Chief, like we all find this kind of sus.

Crime Junkie

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And in another statement during the interview, Don said, quote, if I did this, you're going to have to tell me I did it. And listen, Deputy Chief Campbell isn't going to put words in his mouth, but he doesn't believe him in like what he's saying. And he doesn't believe the polygraph results either. The hang up is Dawn's alibi. I mean, it's rock solid.

Crime Junkie

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It's a Saturday night, just before midnight, and according to a book by Keith Royston and Douglas Walker, a source we'll rely on very heavily here for this episode, Terry also has his canine partner, Max, with him. Now, at some point, this real life Turner and Hooch hop in their squad car to leave.

Crime Junkie

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Kimberly's mother, Nancy, said that Dawn went to a football game earlier in the night, but was home before the shootings even took place and that he only went back out around 1230 a.m. to look for Kimberly.

Crime Junkie

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That's the other problem. There isn't one. So it's not quite adding up. And listen, we've contacted Muncie PD to ask, like, why they were so hot on Dawn early on. Like, there could be things on police's radar that they didn't make public, maybe a motive we're unaware of. But as of this recording, we haven't heard back from them.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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Now, it's no surprise that after this initial interview, Don lawyers up. The Star Press reports that his lawyer tells police he will not let Don be interviewed again without a lawyer in the room. So essentially, Don stops cooperating, which then Deputy Chief Campbell seems to suggest that Don is now somehow hindering the investigation.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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But the police have nothing that they can really make stick to Don as their guy. And I mean, the thing is, they can't make anything stick to anyone. For a brief moment, they looked at one of their own, actually, Officer Terry Winters, the police officer who discovered the bodies, which was like, honestly, my first crime junkie guess when I got into this case. Like,

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Westside Park Murders

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The amount of times that I've looked into real cases and it turned out to be the person patrolling who finds the bodies, but not here. This guy was asked to turn over his guns for analysis. It's determined they were not used in the killings. And as far as I can tell, no one seems to place his police vehicle anywhere near the shooting at the time of the shooting.

Crime Junkie

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So by early October, police are in a long way like circling back to the Monte Carlo tip. Because, you see, they had gotten a tip from someone pointing at their neighbor. This guy named James, or he goes by Jimmy, Swingley. And just an FYI, the book is the only place that he is officially named and we couldn't corroborate this anywhere else.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And the story I have for you today is one that I've wanted to tell for a minute now because I found it in a super interesting way. So back in 2022, I covered the case of Randy Leach on the deck.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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And according to the Bonner Springs Edwardsville Chieftain, he was also shown a dead body hanging in the cave that he said appeared to be a young man around six feet tall, weighing about 200 pounds, But whoever this young man was, like, his face was smashed. So he couldn't say who it was or if it looked like Randy or anything like that.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Now, how this guy got away, how he's able to tell his story, why they let him go, all of that is unclear.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1040.579

Yeah. I don't know. So this guy passes several polygraph tests. And according to Fox 4, the Edwardsville police and a satanic expert are at least willing to take it seriously enough that they want to go search this cave. But this is where like there's a huge halt because I guess officials in Leavenworth County, this is where the cave was actually located.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1061.865

They threatened anyone with arrest if they searched the cave, even though these are like other officials. So Edwardsville has to just like back off and drop it. So I can't tell you if it's real or not because we don't know.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1079.36

I don't know if they were just being territorial, which if they were, you would think they would do it themselves. Or it's possible they're just writing the whole thing off. Because there is a caveat to this. So according to the Kansas City Star, at one point, this guy retracted his statement. He's claiming that he was high at the time.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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So I think a lot of people start to just write off that story as some like drug-induced hallucination. There are at least two sources that claim sheriffs eventually do some kind of initial search of these caves and find no sign of Randy, which is like obviously good. But one of those sources reports that there were some kind of markings that were found.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1120.223

Some law enforcement agencies think they're satanic. Others think they're not. So it's unclear if the plan is to, like, keep looking into this, just letting it, like, die off here. It's a big question mark, right? But in the meantime, while they decide what to or not to do, others were looking at more logical explanations for Randy's disappearance. Back to the accident theory.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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The first thing she does after climbing out of bed is to check on her 17-year-old son, Randy, because she knows that he'd been out at a party the night before and she wants to ensure that her only child got home safely. Several sources report that his curfew was 1230 in the morning. Dad says he's usually home by one, like latest he's ever out was like 2 a.m.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1146.67

So there's about 10 miles between Randy's house and this farm where the party was. And if you map this out, there are a few bodies of water that Randy might have come across depending on which of the two routes he could have taken home that night. And obviously this is after they've like searched the road. It's not a ditch somewhere. So the next thing is they're thinking is like body of water.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1165.914

Now, he could go north or south, and it sounds like the south route, which would be considered more of like the back route, is maybe where Randy could get in the most trouble. It would put Randy on what was known as Golden Road, which runs along the Kansas River. And at one point, it actually crosses over what was known as Stranger Creek.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1185.882

Now, there's also a world where maybe Randy was so disoriented that he didn't even take the normal path home, which is why they have got to throw a wide net at this point. And according to the Lawrence Journal World, in the first two months after Randy went missing, police are searching everything.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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They searched the river, ponds, creeks, any sign for Randy or his car that either one went into the water.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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It would, except after putting a plane into the air to do aerial searches and everything in the water, there is still no sign of him or the car anywhere. So if he accidentally drove into a river or some ravine somewhere, where is he? And why weren't there any signs of a car going off the road?

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1228.999

Plus, if Randy lost control of the car and ended up in the water, what are the chances that he didn't hit like anything else that night, like as he's going in? Because there's no reporting of a collision in the area surrounding the house where the party was or anywhere else.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1242.824

So it feels, to your point, like Occam's razor, it feels like the logical explanation, but it still is not yielding any results or any answers. Right, and it leaves you with so many questions. Mm-hmm. Spring rolls into summer, and for Randy's parents, the investigation into his disappearance isn't moving fast enough.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1259.962

So they hire a private detective, but it doesn't sound like anything comes of that either. And the longer Randy is missing, the more rumors his parents must face in their small community. One source claims police were given a name of a guy that Randy might have left with that night, a guy who then dismembered Randy. But according to police, this guy was in prison when Randy disappeared.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Then there's speculation that maybe Randy OD'd or maybe he was murdered over witnessing a drug deal or maybe he was tied to a tree and then died of dehydration. But none of these cases can be confirmed.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Or even if someone drugged him and he didn't know. Exactly.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Right. And I'm with you. Like, the problem is, it's still all rumors. Like, his parents can't go off that. All they can do is hope for a real break while kind of racking their brains for anything that maybe, like, seemed things that were, like, normal before Randy disappeared, but, like, are red flags now in hindsight. Mm-hmm. And they don't come up with anything earth shattering.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

133.736

And according to the Lawrence Journal World, on most occasions, his mom would actually hear him come in at night and that would wake her up. Sometimes they'd even have a little late night conversation and then Randy would go to bed. But she didn't wake up the night before because she never heard him come in. And she's realizing now that's because her son is nowhere to be found.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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I mean, like, okay, he recently went through a breakup. He wasn't happy about like his playing time on the basketball team. Like these are small potatoes to parents. Exactly. Like you have a broader view on life, but they're, Big things to a kid. So they get to the point, honestly, his parents, where they're almost hoping maybe one of those things is the reason he left.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1362.995

And he did leave on his own. He ran away. And they're hoping for that because that would at least mean he's alive. So they start going to places like Colorado, where they vacationed every year, thinking that Randy might have gone there if he did leave. And they're handing out posters. They're talking to residents. But there's no sign of Randy.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1381.596

And as much as they want the idea of him running away to be true, eventually, like, they just know deep down it doesn't make sense. Even the one digital trail they had back then, his bank account, doesn't show any activity after he goes missing.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1396.566

According to the Wichita Eagle, Randy's dad, Harold, spends most of his days searching for Randy along the back roads and highways of Kansas, coming home each day empty-handed. So no matter where they look, in state or out, the outcome is always the same. Towards the end of the summer, the leeches get a call from authorities. And this call is one that they've been dreading getting.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Police have pulled a body from the Missouri River, which isn't far from Linwood where they live. But even then, it turns out it's not Randy. So back to square one. And this just shows you like the roller coaster that these families go through, right? Like satanic cult. There's a cave. There's a person in his class. He's found in a river. Like, You just go through this whirlwind of emotions.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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And this goes on and on into the new year. And then in March of 1989, that's when police get what could be a potentially huge break in the case. Oh, and actually, this reminds me, I never got back to Steve, the guy that he was like with for a little bit that day. Yeah. So there is something weird I need to tell you about real quick. So we know Steve.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1466.423

He's the friend that was with Randy before the party. He's with him at like 830. They're going to look at the Mustang. Then we know they're not together when Randy gets to the party. TBD where Steve was.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1477.989

Yeah. That's never reported on like where he was. But get this. According to the Lawrence Journal World, that first morning when Randy's parents woke up and discovered that he wasn't home, a Apparently, they saw Steve like driving 10 miles per hour past the house, which was on like a main highway. The speed limit was like 55.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1498.88

And then he passes again by the Leach's house on the county road, like on another road that's like by their house.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1510.027

Right. And that's why they're like at the time they didn't even like register it. They're like, oh, again, small town. Like, oh, we know him. They don't even know he's like really missing or how serious this is. And then like it's something they think back on later.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1520.816

And listen, if you want to know if police ever asked Steve about this, so do I. Again, the sheriff's office doesn't seem inclined to want to answer specific questions. So just kind of like file away that weirdness as I tell you this next thing. So we're in March of 1989. Randy has been missing almost a full year at this point.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

153.692

He's not in his room, he's not crashed on the couch with the TV on, and I'm sure her already building anxiety spikes when she looks outside and sees that her car, the car that Randy was driving the night before, isn't there either. She goes and wakes her husband, Harold, and they immediately start calling around to friends, but no one has seen Randy since the party the night before.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1537.69

And guess who finds a severed foot on the shoreline of the Kansas River? Shoe on it and everything. Steve? Friggin' Steve. He tells authorities that he was just like strolling along when he stumbled across this foot. Now, why Steve is strolling along the river, I don't know. But that's Steve's story.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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And as wild as this is, it might mean nothing because the police determined that this is not Randy's foot.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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I don't know. What I know is that Fox 4 got a statement from the KBI saying, They said that at some point DNA testing confirmed it wasn't Randy's. So it's not just like a guess based on the shoe. DNA, not Randy's. Cool. But they wouldn't say whose it was. Which, to your point, like I feel like it's something like we should know. Maybe have a right to know.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1590.545

Or at least the people of Kansas have a right to know. No? I mean, yeah.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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I don't know.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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So they leave the foot alone.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1609.506

Yeah, but maybe that's all it is. Like this just weird, odd detail in a story full of weird, odd details. And unfortunately, Steve's no longer alive, so we couldn't even go directly to him and ask him about it. And the hits just keep coming because about a year after Randy vanished from that farm, the farm burns down.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1631.026

Yeah. Betty told us that when the house on that property burned to the ground, there wasn't a doubt in anyone's mind that it was intentional. And the Leavenworth County Sheriff, Herb Nye, says, quote, there might have been some suspicious origin to it.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1656.12

Right. Like that's my thing, too, because we are like a year out. Why not? Like what would be the benefit of if it was intentional and related to Randy? Why now? There has never been anything said publicly to like indicate that they were going to search it or that something was there or that like nothing.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1675.95

Nothing. Right. Now, we did talk to Betty a little bit about this. Again, she's, like, the family spokesperson. And she said, like, the consensus, like, among most people in the area, they do think it has nothing to do with Randy. But again, it's just one of those weird things.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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It's like... And again, is this a product of a small town where it's like, of course Steve finds the foot because he's one of 300 people. Right. If the foot's here, one of the 300 people have to find it. Right. And if it's a house fire, like, okay, like, the odds that it was somewhere he... like was recently... Is still pretty high because it's a town of 300 people.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

17.739

This is not that Randy Leach. It's a different Randy Leach. So when our reporting team was out first diving into that case, we realized that there were two Randy Leaches that were missing people. And it is finally time that I tell you the other Randy Leach's story because the circumstances are truly bizarre.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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What's suspicious and what's the product of being a small town? I don't know. Right. So by spring of 1990, this is now some two years into Randy's disappearance, with no new developments, his parents get very vocal about how angry they are about this.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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They point to a couple of things that they're frustrated with specifically, like the fact that the authorities keep passing them off from one person to the next, to the next, from... County attorney to the detectives, to sheriffs, to undersheriff and on and on and on. And they're also frustrated by how law enforcement is handling the case.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Alberta tells Fox 4 that it's only after that foot is found that the sheriff's office asked for some of Randy's clothing, but not a minute before. Again, like would have been great five weeks out when we were searching the place. And now that they have the foot that we know, you know, now to be not his, they're like, hey, it might be good for us to have something like this.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Harold and Alberta are frustrated that police will not give them access to the files as well. And that no kind of like formal inquisition, which is like similar to a grand jury, they're frustrated that no formal inquisition has been held to force people to answer questions under oath. Something that Randy's dad, Harold, claims authorities told him was going to take place like back in early 1989.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

176.161

According to another Lawrence Journal World article, they make a call to Alberta's brother, who is a police officer in the nearby town of Lawrence. And he heads out to the farm about 10 miles from the Leach home where this like outdoor pre-graduation bonfire bash was held the night before. That's what Randy was going to. Now, Randy's parents went out there, too.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Yet here they are in 90, like still hasn't happened.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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I think they're just thinking something happened to Randy. Like, they're just wanting any answers they can get, and they just don't think authorities have been aggressive enough to get those answers. And as far as the party goes, like, Harold does believe that there's discrepancies from that night. And as we've seen, I mean, it's a little hard to pin down Randy's movements.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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No one even knows exactly when he left the party, right? So what might the kids at the party or the parents who hosted the party say if they were under oath? Would it be different than, like, him hawing or whatever? Yeah. And let's not forget Steve, who's like popping up all over this story. What might he say under oath about the night that Randy disappeared?

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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But this isn't to say that the Leeches are like focused on the party. When they come out and really start getting in front of the media, they also point to that story from the early days of the guy who said that he saw a body in the cave. They feel like that wasn't explored enough.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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And they're obviously not the only ones frustrated because according to Harold, some police files mysteriously appear in his mailbox.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Yes. Now, what exactly these files point to is a little unclear. And we specifically asked Betty about what was in them, but she declined to share those details. And from what I can tell, no one has ever seen them. Like even years later, when his parents try to sue for the records in Randy's case, they don't appear to produce those files to enter them into evidence. So I don't know why.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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It's something that the judge actually points to when she denies them. She's like, you didn't even show us what you have. Because they bring it up and they're like, you want to compare it to what's there, what's not there. You didn't even show it. So it's weird how underlocking key these files are. And ultimately, all in all, the leeches don't get the inquisition that they were after.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1885.475

So Randy's parents are frustrated, maybe even a little desperate. And at one point, they even go on the Jerry Springer show to talk about Randy. The episode that they appeared on revolves around missing children and a psychic was involved. And this is what's wild. So off camera, the psychic tells the leeches that they think Randy is alive.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1904.043

But the minute the cameras come on, the psychic reverses course and tells them that Randy is dead, which, of course, like they just burst into tears.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Oh, my God. This was totally orchestrated.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Yes.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Horrible.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Horrible and cruel. A whole bunch of other words I don't even want to say. But, like, I think, again, I think what this points to is just Randy's parents' desperation. Yeah. They will do anything. They will go on Jerry Springer if it gets the word out about their son who they're trying to find.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

194.8

We actually got to talk to Alberta's friend, Betty, who's kind of like the family spokesperson now. And she told us that when they got there, Harold noticed that the teenager who lived at that house was, and this is so strange to me, was like standing in the driveway in tears. But there's no sign of Randy. There's no sign of the car.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1945.161

According to the Lawrence Journal-World, in June of 1990, it's so bad that they send a petition with 12,000 signatures that they had collected to state officials to make sure Randy's disappearance continues to be investigated. Which when you think about 12,000 in 1990 that you had to do by hand...

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1965.557

These people were putting in the work, hitting the streets. I think, like, what it takes for us to get 12,000 signatures so we can, like, put something out on the waves, like, we still have to push.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

1974.959

Unbelievable. But, like, all this stuff that they're doing, like, it's building momentum. And it seems like a little bit of magic happens in July of 1990. Right. That is when a possible suspect in Randy's disappearance comes onto law enforcement's radar. Although I get the impression that this guy was never not on their radar. It's just the first time that things really pick up.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2002.108

All right, I want to back up and tell you a quick story so you have some context around this like potential POI I'm going to talk about. So according to the Lawrence Journal World, there is this guy named Everett Bishop. Everett lived on a property a few miles from Randy's home and he was from the same area.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2018.221

Apparently, Everett Bishop had been complaining to this friend of his that some teens were, quote unquote, terrorizing him. They're like shooting guns at his house. So this friend introduces Everett to an ex-con and all-around dangerous guy named Eric Montgomery. Eric is supposed to help protect Everett from these teens.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2038.541

Well, Everett ends up going missing, and it's not long before the police come knocking on Eric's door. When they do, they discover that Eric is in possession of a stolen car, and that car leads them to this other guy, Cheryl Gary Brinkley.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2054.065

Now, he's a car thief who was friends with Eric, and police suspect that these guys had something to do with Everett's disappearance, but they can't make it stick until they finally offer Eric a deal. And this gets into, like, some finger-pointing, right? Like, so Eric points the finger at Cheryl, blames him for Everett's May 1990 disappearance, and he says, murder.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2075.001

Cheryl, of course, points the finger back at Eric, and during his trial, when he does... He, like, also just mentions that Eric had something to do with Randy's disappearance. Like, this is happening at the trial. So there's so much back and forth here. There's even a third missing man, but in the hopes of, like, keeping everyone with me here. Like, basically, I'll try and be concise.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2095.816

So basically, it said that Everett and this third missing guy were killed and put in barrels. Those barrels then never found. So maybe that might not even be true. But it got me thinking, could that have been what happened to Randy, too? But again, there's no evidence of this. Right, right. But like all the theories we have, there seems to be no evidence of it. Exactly.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2113.246

Now, some of the defense teams try to get their hands on Randy's file to see if there is some connection there. Right. Like he just like blurts out this name and everyone's like, wait, what?

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2123.969

So and it's not just that he's like he mentions him. What they end up finding out is that Eric was considered by KBI as a suspect in Randy's case. Like or at least that's what he says when he like blurts this out. But is it true? Is it not true? I can't tell you because the files are sealed.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

214.162

In fact, another strange thing is that there's no sign that a party even took place. Like everything had already been cleaned up and the mom of the kid who lived there didn't offer much help. Like she didn't have a whole lot to say. In fact, according to Fox 4 News, she just offered them a morning beer.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2150.053

Yeah. Other than like Eric saying that he was a suspect.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2167.987

I know.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2175.41

In his car, right. So for what it's worth, Betty doesn't totally think that this is like a relevant line of inquiry because she doesn't think Randy was one of those teens. And she thinks there was a slim chance that Randy even crossed paths with Everett. She said maybe through a friend of his dad, like did some babysitting. I don't even know.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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You also have to think like, oh, did he just randomly run into him as he was like

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2198.157

drunkenly getting home from this party that nobody like sees him going missing from like all the things don't really line up for me everything has to be like so perfect for this right for them to even cross paths yeah they can't connect randy and eric together with any kind of certainty and while that's a lot to process it could be a whole lot of nothing like i said it's one of my least favorite theories but one that like people spend a lot of time on and i feel like it's one of those theories where they're it's a theory because there's nothing concrete

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2234.611

And what I always say is like, what do I not know? Like if we got the files, maybe there is something really meaningful in there. But like we're all blind to it. I don't know. Eventually, Eric and this other guy both end up in prison in connection with the other disappearances. But Eric was never arrested in connection to Randy's disappearance.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2252.561

And it's never even officially tied to him in any way, as far as I can tell. Like, they never make an official connection. Oh, and this is, like, another wild part. When you think about, like, the Leach's experience in all of this, they don't learn about all of this until, like, midweek. Many, many years later, they're not learning about this as this is happening.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2271.252

The way they find out about Eric and this whole group is there's like this group of three friends who just got obsessed with the case and they started doing like their own crime junkie style sleuthing. And they are the ones who found out about this and shared the details with his parents.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2300.138

Hey, as two random people who started a podcast, yes. But anyways, back in 1990, the leeches are unaware of this development. And they're still focused on demanding more action. And so maybe because of that, in August of 1990, Leavenworth County finally decides to do a more thorough search of that cave in Edwardsville that the person had pointed them to years ago.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2324.088

So this time, they bring in search dogs. And once and for all, they want to put this rumor to bed that Randy's body was ever in this cave, as this one eyewitness claimed. Now, it doesn't appear that anything's found. But according to the Lawrence World Journal, Randy's dad says that he receives some photos purported to have been taken in this same cave.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2345.183

And it's like a photo of a dead pigeon on a cross and strange markings on the walls. And there's apparently even like photos fire rings and tire tracks, but authorities refute that any of this stuff is actually found. So you can... And even if it was there... Years later.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2367.909

Accurate. I mean, but you can see why. So this doesn't clear up anything.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2371.473

Like, again, we've got maybe weird stuff, maybe not all two years later. And it doesn't put anyone's suspicions or rumors to bed.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2378.82

Right. And eventually, Betty told us that those caves get bulldozed. So it's not like any more answers are going to be coming. She said Harold was told that Levensworth County gave that order to bulldoze them. But then ultimately, Levensworth County said they had nothing to do with it.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2392.712

So, like, this just keeps coming back to the fact that the leeches, I feel like, can never get their heads wrapped around the truth. Like, even the stuff that should be simple isn't simple.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2404.941

Yeah. So 1991 rolls in and with it comes a shred of good news. The governor at the time, Joan Finney, issues an executive order basically stating that law enforcement at least have some belief that maybe a crime has been committed in Randy's disappearance. And as part of this order, she includes a $5,000 reward. So it finally feels like a step in the right direction for Randy's parents.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2430.933

But next comes several steps back. The Topeka Capital Journal reports that after fighting for more insight into the investigative reports on their son's disappearance, Harold and Alberta get a whopping 60 pages to look over. And apparently in these 60 pages is just information that they had given investigators in the first place.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

245.469

They said it looked like there's no cups. There's no trash. Everything had been like raked up. Like so early in the morning, this party just like went away. We don't know why this young woman was crying. Again, could be something completely unrelated. I think this is something that I spiraled on so much because I'm like, I have a thousand questions for you if my son's missing. Yeah.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2453.83

And this doesn't appear to be anything having to do with like the files that they supposedly got in their mailbox, just like information that they'd shared over the years through like tips or their own interviews or whatever. Right. And to make matters worse, by 1993, those satanic cult rumors come roaring back. At this point, it's like the only consistent in this case, really.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2473.097

And coming along for the ride is a show we all know and love, Unsolved Mysteries. So as we discussed earlier, the leeches were looking for any help they could find. And they get a little in the summer of 1993 when this guy named Terry comes into their lives. He says that he is a research journalist there to help prepare an episode of Unsolved Mysteries on Randy's case.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2494.249

So Alberta and Harold watch as Terry truly like investigates Randy's disappearance. He spends over several months like digging deep. And at one point, he even pools the information he's gathering with one of the detectives reviewing Randy's case. And to the leeches surprise, Terry appears to really help the case.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2514.013

And in July, before an episode even is set to air or anything, police actually arrest three men in connection with Randy's disappearance. On the CrimeWire podcast, Rob, who we talked about earlier, he was that classmate of Randy's who police questioned. He claims that at least one of these men that were arrested was Randy's friend, Steve. Steve found the foot, Steve. Steve, Steve.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2537.568

But as quickly as these guys are arrested, they're back on the street. Literally, I think, within like two days. Wait, what did they have on them to begin with? You don't know, do you? I don't know. No, so here's the thing. So, no, something really funky happens here.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2551.821

Because when they're released, police just say that they had brought the guys in for, quote, investigative purposes, whatever that means.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Yeah, and the Lawrence Journal World, according to them, arrest warrants were issued by the assistant Leavenworth County attorney. Okay. So it sounds like these were legit arrests.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2587.714

But I think they were covering their ass after the fact, and like I said, trying to really downplay it, because Terry's involvement in this whole thing begins to unravel. And it all starts with him holding this, like, three-hour press conference the next day describing what his investigation uncovered.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Three. It's like, what is this, a JonBenét Ramsey episode? Yeah. And this happens, like, at the Leach's house. And here's what Terry claims to have found. Terry says that he's uncovered a satanic cult that has been in operation for over 15 years. He also claims that Randy was killed in front of 50 people in a satanic ritual and that two other people were killed trying to stop Randy's murder.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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But he wouldn't say who those other people were, only that information is like about them or whatever it is, is in police records. And then he also alludes to the fact that like, by the way, Terry might not be his real name for like his own protection. And like sometimes he refers to himself as Lee. Who's Lee?

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

264.576

I think they were so focused on on Randy and like where he was and not even thinking worst case scenario that that.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Bingo. He does not. Now, Unsolved Mysteries did admit that they were interested in covering Randy's case. In fact, they had spoken to the Leeches about it back in April. So this was a real possibility.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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What I don't understand is like the timing of it. It feels really wild. Like, did Terry somehow know that Unsolved Mysteries was looking into this?

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Right. Or was he trying to like pull all this stuff together and like pitch it to them? I don't know. But whatever his intentions, it sounds like eventually Unsolved Mysteries covering this case like falls apart. Although at least one source says that they did shoot an episode, but just never aired it. I don't know why they would do that.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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But I think it actually may be the reason is this whole like Terry slash Lee thing. I don't know.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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I don't think it was just Terry. I mentioned before that he had teamed up with a detective on the case. Which is like somehow worse. Well, everyone says she was a little green. Maybe she was a little too eager. And it sounds like these two presented the deputy county attorney old evidence, but like with a new twist. Mm-hmm.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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According to the Lawrence Journal World, Terry also claimed to have new evidence, but like wouldn't show them because he was saving it for the Unsolved Mysteries episode. That's not how that works. Right. You can't do like an IOU for evidence in a probable cause like arrest warrant affidavit.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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And also she's like a young girl and people are like very quick to just like dismiss young women. I don't know. So basically, they find what they think is like nothing there. And so what they do after is they start to fan out. The town of Linwood, where they live and where Randy grew up, is only, I mean, it's small, like 300 people at the time.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Well, I guess not for that show.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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I love an update episode.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Whatever the reason, whatever IOU they gave, like, they got the green light to make the arrest. But then once, I think once they made the arrest, like, the evidence they promised is either double-checked or, like, never materializes. And, like, everyone realizes they have a huge problem on their hand. And the guys are released.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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It could be obstruction, I think, but like somehow. Or like lying to police? Yeah. I don't know. But he walks away from all of this. Of course. Even though he claims that there was a warrant out for his arrest, like, as far as I can see, there wasn't.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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I don't know if he technically didn't break any laws or they just wanted this thing to go away fast or maybe the arrest warrant isn't his real name and nobody knows it. I don't know. And listen, I don't think anyone, like—

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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thought initially he was coming in there to do anything shady i think everyone had good intentions but like it just shows you got to do some due diligence on like the people you work with especially if you're the police department right and you can't blame the local residents for like hoping he's legit and for freaking harold and alberta who just were like dying for anyone and they keep things moving contacted by the real unsolved mysteries right

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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They were, like, totally shocked.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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I don't think they had any idea that this was the road Terry was going down. But I also think, strangely, that they didn't even totally blame Terry or Lee or whatever his name was because, like I said, they were just so desperate for help. But that help never comes back. And the detective involved did get fired, but her superiors claim it was because she didn't show up for work. So I don't know.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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And then like there's a time after this where like her and Terry, Terry Lee, whatever, disappear. Not like disappear like missing, but just like get out of like the limelight. Like they just got to go underground. And Randy's case kind of continues down the same path. No answers. No Randy. All the way through the 90s and into the 2000s with just like little starts and stops along the way.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Like, in 2001, Alberta and Harold have Randy declared legally dead. In 2003, they watch as the sheriff's office and KBI take another close look, but it doesn't appear that this moves the needle. And it's not until 2014 when they start to hear all about Eric Montgomery. That's when that happens. That's when they begin to wonder what else police might not have told them.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2916.779

Like, if they're learning about that in 2014 and it happened in 1990, like, all the more reason we're like, okay, like, there are things... that could be potentially done, avenues that haven't been explored. Sure. So in 2016, they sue the sheriff's office to get records in Randy's case released, but that suit fails.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

292.436

So you can assume it's not long before everyone knows what's going on. But after a day of searching, there is still no sign of Randy. The next day, on the 17th, Randy's parents formally file a missing persons report.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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And the short of it is, like, the judge says that just because the leeches are critical of the investigation doesn't mean that the records should be made public. They say that that could set a precedence for anyone to criticize an investigation in order just to like get a criminal case like records release.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

2948.85

So at every turn, Alberta and Harold end up back where they first started, without their son, without answers. And despite the reward money in Randy's case being as high as $30,000, no one ever comes forward to talk or name names.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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And we've seen that before, right? Where it's like areas, ponds or whatever, were like searched and then found like decades later. Yeah. And you're not alone in thinking that. So according to an article in the Kansas City Star from 2018, actually one of the former investigators on the case is convinced that Randy is in the water somewhere.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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He really thinks that Randy would have taken that back road home that we discussed earlier, like specifically because if you are feeling weird and you're driving at night, like you don't want to. run into police, so you take the back roads, and that would take him on Golden Road.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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And back then, there was this single-lane bridge with no guardrails that went over Stranger Creek, which is exactly what it sounds like, a creek. So it's possible that Randy went off the bridge and into the water. And despite people thinking that the creek was too shallow, there is actually an example that a car could sink there.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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So the summer before Randy disappeared, the movie Kansas filmed there, and they pushed a car into that creek, and it sank. But you mentioned before that the creek had been searched. They were, including this one again and again. Randy's car wasn't found.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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But I think this investigator's point is whether Stranger Creek or the Kansas River, other cars have been found in water far from where they actually went in. So like sometimes they're pushed along by the currents. The other thought in the article is that the car could have entered a bowl at the bottom of like a river or something. And over time, that kind of like

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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fills up with sand and sand and like buries the car. Like I was saying, like, it's still so wild to me that you wouldn't find it back then, but that doesn't mean it's not there. And to even further back up the possibility of an accident, in 2017, Toni Anderson, a University of Missouri, Kansas City student, went missing along with her car.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Some sources have this happening on the 16th, but it sounds like they maybe tried to do it on the 16th and then were told that they had to wait the 24 hours or whatever because this was like a mandatory waiting period.

Crime Junkie

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And everyone was convinced she was kidnapped, but tragically, she was found in her car in the Missouri River.

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So much.

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So much weirdness like the fact that a man from Topeka, who at one point helped the leeches search for Randy, was reportedly found shot to death along with his wife? Yeah. Listen, there are all these, like, there are all these things I haven't even told you. Like, these tiny... And is it, again, this, like, small town? Is it... We've talked about this.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Like, once you're in the middle of a true crime case, like, there's a microscope on your life that would reveal a bunch of weird things. Like, how much weirdness is in my own life and the people surrounding me, but, like, nobody knows or even I don't know because I don't have investigators.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Right. Cue all the, like, armchair detectives being like, what's Ashley hiding? But anyways, this... This is another weird thing I just want to talk about real quick. So this man from Topeka, police rule his and his wife's death as a murder-suicide. But again, it's just like another weird thing. They help search and this thing happens.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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That doesn't mean like they're immune to tragedy, but another weird thing. And another weird thing, remember the farmhouse where the party was? Remember that caught fire? Mm-hmm. So it's actually not the only fire in this story. According to the Lawrence Journal World, after the leeches bought a car to replace the one that disappeared with Randy, it caught fire and burned in their backyard.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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An inspector reportedly said that a gas line deteriorated and burst, but the leeches thought that it was arson. And I've got more arson for you. Good old Steve also apparently had a brush with a blaze. Harold Leach reportedly said that at some point Steve was living in the back of this store somewhere in Linwood.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Me too. But what's not a surprise is that initially, and we see this all the time as well, police think that Randy might have just up and run away.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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And apparently the section where he lived, so like the back of this store, unexpectedly caught fire. Now, I couldn't find more on this. I wish Steve was still alive so we could ask him about this. But again, he's not. Want a little more weirdness because, like, it doesn't stop?

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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The Lawrence Journal World also noted that Randy's dog, Crackers, just, like, up and vanished about four months after Randy went missing. Crackers is never found. And I'm saving the most bizarre for last. So there is this moment in the case where Randy's dad, Harold, is told by a psychic to go to the shores of Stranger Creek, where, again, some thought Randy could be located.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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So Harold goes, and he finds something written in the mud along the shore. It says, Randy Leach was here. Okay. 32991.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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No. And like this, this is so weird because like the psychic lived in Florida. So it's not like... It's not like a plant. Right. Like they set it up. And why would you do that date? He doesn't know what to make of it. I don't know what to make of it. Police don't know what to make of it. So they don't really pursue it. We asked Betty about it. I think she's kind of in the same boat.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Like no one knows what... to make of this thing. The other thing I don't have is, like, the date that his dad was sent to the shore.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Dude, I don't know. But isn't that weird?

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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But according to the Lawrence Journal-World, it does look like on the 18th, they finally do put the word out that they're looking for a 6'3", 220-pound 17-year-old. Which, considering how big he is, it should make Randy a little easier to spot in a crowd. Mm-hmm. And in that same article, it mentions they're also looking for more information on his mom's gray Dodge, which is missing with him.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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If they did, well, again, the date to me doesn't make sense.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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And in this small town, like this is something that's like kind of known about his case. You would think at some point they'd come forward and be like, oh, that was me. Ignore it. Yeah, if you're hearing this for the first time and that was you, like might want to let the leeches know, the police know. But the date still doesn't make sense, even if that was.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Now, as recently as 2021, more searching was done, but the searchers found nothing after checking multiple water locations, even with newer technology. And even more interesting, they were denied access to a pond located on the former property of, wait for it, Everett Bishop. So remember, he went missing himself. He's connected to Eric Montgomery.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Eric Montgomery is a possible suspect in Randy's disappearance. According to Betty, at the time, this property appears to still be owned by the Bishop family, like now. So, or at least when they were trying to do this. So it might not come as a surprise that they weren't willing to let someone search their pond. But they also claim that police had been to the property in the past.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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I don't know if the pond was searched then. So, like, that's one spot that might still not have been checked, but I don't know for sure.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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hiding it if it's like buried or in water, but also could have been like destroyed. You could have like disassembled it. You could have burned it. You could have taken it out of state. I mean, there are a lot of ways to get rid of a car. Now, new theories about this case continue to pop up. Other potential suspects like people who might have lived in the area around that time.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Like there's a name that keeps getting like mentioned in Reddit forums. I'm not going to name names, but there's speculation that Randy's car could have been parked in this person's driveway like at the time of the party or whatever. And I asked Betty about this and she confirmed that there was sort of the shared driveway situation.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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And she even speculated like others have that Randy maybe could have ended up like in a neighboring house that something could have happened there. But like, cool, something could have happened anywhere because we don't know where Randy is. Right. Randy's case is still open.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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According to KSHB 41, in later years, two retired detectives began to help Randy's family try to get some answers to his disappearance. But they were met with some roadblocks from authorities who once again refused to share any information or let them look at the case files.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Well, maybe what they don't want out there is them not doing a good job. I mean, that's a possibility, too. I'm not saying it's the possibility, but that's what a lot of people wonder.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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So many years later, I know. Fox 4's Lisa McCormick and Professor Eugene Matthews' review of the case files found that in 1993, the Edwardsville police chief flagged a report that came in describing the supposed location of Randy's car, like this was a whole new thing, Randy's body, and other circumstances about his disappearance.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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The chief wrote, quote, this information warrants further investigation, end quote. But a former Edwardsville police employee who spoke to Fox 4 said the sheriff's office refused to even take the report. In their emails to us, the undersheriff of Leavenworth County said, quote, End quote. We also tried reaching out to KBI, but we haven't heard back from them.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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That's what he was driving that night. So a couple of tips start coming in. Someone who maybe saw Randy at a high school in another town, according to a single source, an anonymous woman who claims to have seen a gray car driving erratically down a street in Lawrence at some point. But neither of those are confirmed. So police and Randy's family are left to try and retrace his last known movements.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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And Leavenworth County Attorney's Office, who we reached out to in regard to Randy's file. They referred us back to the sheriff's office for any specific questions. But listen, if anyone out there is connected to any of these investigative agencies and you hear this and you want to talk to us, please reach out. We still have a ton of questions.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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And so does Randy's family, who has waited over 36 years for answers. It's hard enough to lose a child, and it's even harder not knowing what happened to them, or if by some miracle they're still out there somewhere. Randy's father, Harold, unfortunately passed away in 2021, never knowing what happened to Randy.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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According to Betty, he kept a list of 97 unanswered questions that he had surrounding his son's disappearance, and it's a list that we plan on poring over. Randy's mother, Alberta, is still alive and we reached out to her too. But as you can imagine, talking about Randy's case is very emotional for her. And it's not something she felt like she could do right now. And I can't even blame her.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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She's been talking about this case for 36 years. That's far too long. She deserves some closure one way or another. And Randy, wherever he is, deserves to finally come home.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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So if you know anything about the disappearance of Randy Leach on April 15th, 1988 in Linwood, Kansas, or maybe if you saw his car, a 1985 Dodge 600 sedan with Kansas plate LVJ8721, please contact the Kansas Bureau of Investigation at 1-800-572-7463. For more information, you can also visit the website InSearchOfRandyLeach.com. We'll link to that in our show notes.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast. Britt and I are actually off next week. We will be back the following week with a brand new episode. But make sure to stick around for the good segment. All right, Brett, now back to our regularly scheduled feel good content.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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What do you have for us?

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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I used to sing the CSI theme song with my brother when he was like, itty bitty, baby David.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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Now, depending on the reporting, the last time Randy's parents saw him was between 6.30 and 6.45 p.m. That's when he headed out for the night. According to an article by Phil Cawthon for Lawrence.com, around 7 p.m., he stopped at his cousin's house.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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In something like whether it's True Crime or the community or obviously because of like something that they've heard. I literally ran into a girl at a conference just like last week and she's like, listen, I do like ad sales, but I actually think I'm going back to school to like really follow my dream and like make a difference. I'm like, yeah.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Yes, I was selling software before this. You can do anything.

Crime Junkie

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Crime Junkie is an Audiochuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? No.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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And then at some point, it sounds like maybe this was like 8.30, Randy and a friend of his named Steve, who was older, they drove to the town of DeSoto to look at Randy's graduation present. It was this Mustang that was in the process of being restored. Mm-hmm. Now, it's unclear what happened to Steve after this point, and I'll talk more about him later.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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He goes to a graduation party, starts acting strange, but he doesn't know what's wrong with him. And it's so strange that people don't want him to drive. I mean, that's how bad it is. One minute he's there, and the next, both him and his car are missing, have been missing for 36 years. And in those years, rumors have swirled.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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What we know is that Randy gets gas after this, but there's no note if he was solo, if Steve was still with him, anything like that. But according to Fox 4 in Kansas, I do know that he's by himself when he arrives to that party. So again, where Steve departed, TBD.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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So Fox 4's investigative producer, Lisa McCormick, did a deep dive into Randy's case, and we're going to cite their findings a lot here. And depending on the source, it's sometime between 9.30 and 10 p.m. when he gets to that party. And when he arrives, the bonfire party has already kicked off.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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I feel like I'm on repeat. Depends on the source. But it's not just a couple of kids. They all say it was from like 45 people to like 150 people. So this is a big thing. Yeah, especially for a town that small. Right. And I assume there's like kids coming from Lawrence. Otherwise, half the town could be at the spawn fire. It has to be like pulling from other places.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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Now, according to people at the party, there was drinking, there was drug use going on by most of the kids. Though it doesn't sound like Randy was a big drinker and he didn't use drugs, at least according to his parents. And the thing is, is like even in most of the reporting, there's nobody who even saw him with a drink.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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Though there is at least one source that suggests that Randy was given a drink, like a single drink. And everyone says, like, he seemed fine early on. Like, sounds like he was talking with friends, everything was normal. And then within a half an hour of him being, like, his normal self, Randy starts acting super strange. He can't walk straight.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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His mom told Fox 4's Lisa McCormick that when she talked to one of Randy's friends after he went missing, the friend said that Randy was, quote, messed up. And when he asked Randy, like, dude, what's wrong with you? Even Randy's like, I don't know, man. Like, even he didn't know what was going on with him. So it's not like he's like, oh, I'm just wasted.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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The Lawrence World Journal reports that the mom of the kid who threw this party says that she never saw Randy with a drink in his hand and that he didn't look drunk. So you have all these different things. But she did say that she noticed that something was definitely off because even she says that he was stumbling.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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No one can pin that down exactly. But it seems like the police were able to get kind of a rough window of when he was last seen from these people that were there. So a friend of Randy's claims that he helped Randy find his car between 1230 and 1 a.m. But when they found the car, Randy couldn't find his keys.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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Even though, like, I don't even think Randy was in any kind of condition to drive at that point. I was going to say. Yeah, it sounds like this friend planned to give him a ride home, but the friend, like, had to drive another person home first. And by the time that friend got back, Randy and his car were already gone. Now, there's another sighting of Randy, though.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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The Lawrence Journal-World reports that the mother of the teen whose party this was, she saw Randy waiting for the bathroom, she says, at around 2 a.m. So this could be the last known sighting of Randy if her account is correct.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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Now, by 2.30, everyone says the party is basically over except for like a few kids who were lingering who were going to be crashing there that night, none of whom were Randy or his car. So everyone's immediate fear at first, like, knowing all of this, is that, like, maybe Randy found his keys.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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Rumors about a party gone wrong, rumors about a satanic cult, and a police department that, as far as the family is concerned... didn't do everything they could have. This is the story of Randy Leach. It's just after 6 a.m. on April 16th, 1988, when Alberta Leach wakes up in her Linwood, Kansas home, ready to get her Saturday started.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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Like, there are a bunch of random stories of people, like, playing catch with them or someone else having them, but then they later denied it. Like, it's messy. But maybe somehow he got his keys and... While unable to even walk properly, maybe he got behind the wheel in the wee hours of the morning and maybe he crashed, like somewhere on his way home.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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Not him or his car. He just, both are just gone. One minute they're there, the next minute they're gone. But this accident theory, it's just one theory. And honestly, it's not even police's first theory. Randy's parents say police were quick to write their son off as a runaway. And according to Fox 4, quote, missed opportunities to interview witnesses right away.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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They will, but they don't actually search the farm for five weeks. Weeks? Weeks. And when they do, they don't report having done it with anything belonging to Randy on hand. Like, Lisa McCormick spent months reviewing the files connected to Randy's case with Eugene Matthews, who was this associate professor of criminal justice at Park University.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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And Matthews says that search dogs potentially could have had a shot, even five weeks later, at finding Randy's last location on the farm.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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Yeah, anything with his scent. But the Leavenworth County Sheriff's Office didn't do that. And we actually reached out to the sheriff's office about this. And while they wouldn't respond to like specific questions from us, they did give us a statement. And part of that statement reads, quote, "...our staff and the LVSO in its entirety remain committed to the solving of this case.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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At no point have we wavered in the pursuit of this goal. Over the 36 years of this case's existence, we have assigned dedicated, qualified investigators to the case. We have endeavored to bring this case to a close." Now, at no point then or now have they said if anything comes of that search, if anything was found on the farm.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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But I mean, I think anything worth finding had five weeks to disappear.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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So saying there's nothing, even if there is nothing, like that doesn't really hold a whole lot of weight for people, least of all Randy's family.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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But the thing is, the more I think about it, even if they would have searched it sooner, I don't know if they would have found anything because if you remember how cleaned up it was.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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I mean, people point to that all the time. When Randy's uncle had gone looking for him, he said you literally could not tell a party had happened there. A quote in the Lawrence Journal World has him saying, I was at the site of the party around seven in the morning and they wouldn't do a thing to help me. The ground was swept and raked and everything put away, no cups or cans.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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You couldn't even have told there was a party there.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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Unless, like, we didn't want our parents to know that the party happened, which we know this, like, mom there knows it's going on. It's like they are seeing people. We're cleaning up the next day. Oh, for sure. And the fact that this got cleaned up so quickly, I think this is what starts to really fuel rumors in town.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Well, buckle up. So we're about to head into satanic panic territory. As you know, we are in the late 80s. It is prime time for satanic panic. And we are in Bible Belt, Kansas.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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So the air is like primed when, according to Kansas City Star, a tip comes in that says one of Randy's classmates had told another classmate that he was part of a satanic cult and that he murdered Randy as some kind of ritual sacrifice. So, I mean, this sounds wild, but police bring this guy in for questioning. And according to the Kansas City Star, they also search a car in relation to this.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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And inside they find some knives. They find some, like, wait for it, dungeon and dragons, a manual, which I think just fuels the theory.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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But ultimately, this classmate of Randy's never gets charged. And actually, this classmate, his name's Rob, he was interviewed on an episode of the Crime Wire podcast in 2017. And he admits that he was at the party. He says, though, that he was targeted with all of this because he was just, like, the black sheep in the community. He's like, I wasn't, like, I wasn't satanic.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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I was just, like, into heavy metal music. And I had nothing to do with Randy's disappearance. This entire story that the police were tipped off to was just a lie. And even, like, the D&D thing in the Kansas City Star, like, Apparently, he told them, like, he didn't even play it. Which, like, that's such a frustrating, like. I love that they're, like, honing in on that. Your husband plays D&D.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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Don't offend the listeners. I know.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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Well, and I remember growing up, right? Like, I wasn't allowed to touch a Dungeons & Dragons thing. There was the word dragons in it. Well, what this reminds me of, it reminds me a lot of the West Memphis Three if, like, the West Memphis Three hadn't have ended in a conviction. You know what I mean? Like, this was the start of it. It's like, oh, you dress in black. Oh, you like heavy metal music.

Crime Junkie

MISSING: Randy Leach

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Right. So according to the Topeka Capital Journal, despite Rob never being charged, police did continue to monitor and follow him around. I guess it literally took Rob 26 years just to get his knives and books back from the police after they were taken. But just because Rob was off the hook, it doesn't mean that the community thinks that the police were barking up the wrong tree.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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Because something wild happens in the middle of all of this. Something that like makes them think this satanic thing is like got some legs to it. So there's this young man who walks into the police station in a nearby town, this town of Edwardsville. This is like 20 minutes from where Randy grew up. And this guy tells police a story that sends shockwaves through Linwood.

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MISSING: Randy Leach

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This man says that he was abducted by a group of people and held for three weeks. Some reports say two weeks, but weeks nonetheless. He tells police that they drugged him and at one point they brought him to this cave where he witnessed several people in robes performing some kind of ritual. According to one source, they threatened to cut off his arm at one point.

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MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1

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All right. First of all, we called it the life rule number 10 tour for a reason. Everyone knows it. It's never a mannequin. It's never a mannequin. But there are a couple of things to keep in mind. So number one, this is 1987, right? This is the year before you and I were even born.

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Exactly. And he didn't just say it was a mannequin. He specifically said he thought it was a recessive Annie doll like he has in his school. Now, I don't know if anyone listening knows what a recessive Annie doll is. They probably know. They definitely know if they came to tour. You probably know if you follow me on Instagram. I didn't know when this whole thing started. So I ordered one on eBay.

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She has been living in the office. She's like become my friend. And she's been on the road with us. She has. She's been everywhere. Annie's like my emotional support like through tour. They're basically like these like like the body blows up, but like the head, the feet and the arms are like solid. It's very strange, very lifelike and not just lifelike, but like deceased like.

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MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1

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Well, it's a CPR doll. Yeah. And what's so wild is I have this picture that I'm not going to share of Peggy's face as she's lying in the field and this recessive Annie doll side by side. The way Peggy is pale, her haircut, color, style, everything is identical. And I've showed a couple of people on the production team. And I'll try, I explain it the same way I'm explaining it now.

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MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1

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And people are like, okay, yeah, sure, I kind of, I maybe understand it. And if I show people the picture, it's always just, I showed you, it's just a gas.

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MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1

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It's uncanny. It is uncanny. So if you're 15 and you're used to seeing that at your school all the time, you don't believe that you're walking to school and going to find a dead body. Like that's just not your reality. Your mind just like fills in the blank. Exactly. So you have that. And then the other thing is, again, a grown man told us the story when we went to go speak with him.

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MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1

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But like I said, he was a 15-year-old kid when this happened. But it doesn't matter. None of that stuff matters. Police do not believe that he could have seen Peggy and thought she was a recessive antidote, a mannequin, whatever. So they bring him in for questioning, which his dad okays. I mean, he's by himself during this. And the whole time he is insistent he had nothing to do with this.

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But when they give him a polygraph, that says otherwise. Which, that's another life rule, never take a polygraph. And we have another one, always get a lawyer. But Tim said that he and his dad didn't know that they could get a lawyer or should get a lawyer at the time.

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MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1

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And Tim also didn't realize that they were searching his trailer, paying specific attention to his room, where they were finding things like Toy guns, a knife collection, and they're still looking for a murder weapon at this time. They also found a pair of pants with a spot of blood on them.

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And they found this next thing that they think is the clincher, like their proof that they're on to a dangerous individual. They find a bunch of Tim's drawings. Crime Junkies, if you are like me, you have found yourself glued to the TV screen, captivated by the twists and turns of a gripping true crime story. Now imagine having endless access to all your favorite true crime shows completely free.

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MURDERED: Peggy Hettrick Part 1

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Crime Junkie

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Now, this is where you will want to be watching on YouTube. If you're not watching this episode on YouTube, we're going to post the pictures on the website and in the app for those listening there. The drawings become central to this case.

Crime Junkie

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Like, there's one with, like, it looks like a... They're all hand-drawn. One's, like, holding a head with, like, a gun behind it.

Crime Junkie

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Yes. Like... I don't know. When we went on tour, we would show the drawings. And, like, I don't want to downplay it. People would do this, like, collective gasp. More than we even thought they would. Yeah. They were, like, shocked by them. What I kept saying on tour is, like, I remember, like, middle school does not feel that far away. I don't want to do the math because it is that far away.

Crime Junkie

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But... I remember like the boys in my class doing these like weird drawings.

Crime Junkie

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Right. But it did not feel benign to these investigators. So as they're finding this stuff, they're sharing it with the cops interrogating Tim. And they take turns interrogating him alone over the course of nine hours.

Crime Junkie

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Now, in all that time, Tim never confessed, never admitted anything, which in and of itself, I think it's kind of a miracle. Like we've seen people crumble under less pressure.

Crime Junkie

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Right. But Tim never caves. He swears he had nothing to do with this. And all they have are these drawings, which make them like sure that something is up, but they can't arrest him for drawing. So they have to release him, but they are convinced that he is still their guy. None more than a man named Detective Jim Broderick.

Crime Junkie

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And really, he's looking at a couple of things when he is thinking that Tim is guilty. I mean, first and foremost, the drawings. Second, though, at some point when Tim had been interviewed, it comes out that he knew that Peggy's nipple had been removed. Which to Jim, it's like if you, you know, stayed far away, which is always his story. And thought it was a mannequin. Yeah.

Crime Junkie

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How would you know that? The other thing he points to is that Tim's shoe prints were found in the field near Peggy's body. So he knows if he's going to build a case against him, he has to get more. And so what he does is he has the FBI do a profile, sends them everything about their case, all the stuff they have on Tim, drawings, all of it. Please do a profile.

Crime Junkie

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So they send back their official profile and they're like, no, like this. This kid is not your guy. And you can't say that this kid killed this woman based on some drawings. Now, instead of hearing that and then like, you know, casting a wider net or thinking like, who should we be looking at? Right. It's kind of like they go profiler shopping like and they don't do another official profile.

Crime Junkie

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I don't know if the FBI probably just is like a one and done kind of thing. I'm sure they're not like, yeah, we'll just redo that for you. The police basically like do a phone a friend and call up this guy in Washington to do like an unofficial thing. And they get this memo back. And the guy is like, listen, I. I don't know about all the drawings and stuff, whatever.

Crime Junkie

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Maybe if a lot of ifs, ands, buts, maybes, whatever. But he's like, listen, what I have seen before are cases where a suspect will position their victim in a way so that they can see them after the crime or maybe even see the crime scene unfold, whatever. And where the master's trailer was did have a direct line of sight to where Peggy was found. So that's enough for Jim Broderick.

Crime Junkie

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The takeaway is clear that this kid is dangerous and it is his job, nay his duty, to get him off the streets of Fort Collins. So the police don't let up. They are pulling him out of class. They're telling his teachers that he is a dangerous individual suspected of murder, which obviously doesn't stay with just the teachers.

Crime Junkie

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Tim said that at one point, I mean, he would be walking down the hall and kids would go to the other side because they didn't want to walk next to the kids suspected of murder. And he wasn't just getting it at school. It was coming at him from all angles.

Crime Junkie

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I mean, every day for the first month of the investigation, the newspaper would show up at their house and the front page was about Peggy's case, how they had one singular suspect that they were honing in on. But Tim wouldn't break in all that time. And he had answers for a lot of things. So yes, his shoe prints were in the field, but he walks through that field.

Crime Junkie

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And his prints were not the critical ones, those Tom McCann dress shoes. His, the closest it came was like five to seven feet away from Peggy, which is like where he said he was walking and saw her. And he said, yeah, I knew her nipple had been removed, but not because I saw it or did it. A girl in my art class told me about it. Well, And the police had kids out looking for the nipple. Kids talk.

Crime Junkie

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Yes. The blood that they found on his pants turned out to be his own blood. The knives that they collected from his room, his whole knife collection, none of them could be connected to be the murder weapon. And there were unidentified prints found on Peggy's purse and unidentified hairs found on her, none of which belonged to Timb.

Crime Junkie

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So they had no choice but at some point to cast a wider net and they would look at some other people but quickly rule them out. So it's not surprising that this case cooled off pretty quickly, which was so frustrating for Peggy's family. And, you know, it's so, like, what I found so, like, revealing, and I see this in a lot of cases, but it was just so clear in this one to me.

Crime Junkie

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When someone dies, there's, like, this 2D version of them that gets left behind, especially when it's, you know, back in the 80s or whatever. It's like you get a couple of lines in a newspaper about who Peggy was, and that's all I had to go off of when I first started looking into this case. And I want to give our listeners a sense of it. So if you would read what was published about her. Mm-hmm.

Crime Junkie

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And that is so far from the Peggy that I've come to know through her brother Tom over the last year and a half. Because that like college dropout who worked at a clothing store, she was brilliant. She had this like college sweetheart named Frank who she was madly in love with. They were planning a future. They were going to get married and have kids. It was going to be a bright future.

Crime Junkie

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When I say she's brilliant, I mean this woman spoke four different languages. She traveled all over the world. Her family and her lived in other countries. She was writing this novel. But then her life took this hard left turn when Frank, her fiance, like died suddenly and unexpectedly. And then a couple of years later, her mom died.

Crime Junkie

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And I think she was probably trying to figure out what this new version of her future looked like. And so her and her dad and her brother, they moved around a little and kind of bopped all over. They ended up in Hawaii at one point. They all kind of got island fever and eventually decided to come back to the States. And when they did come back, they split up.

Crime Junkie

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So her brother and her dad went to Florida and Peggy went to Colorado, probably because like they'd lived there before. It felt familiar to her. And I know that no one sees something like this coming, but there's something about the timing of this that feels especially cruel.

Crime Junkie

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Because just two days before Peggy was murdered, she called her dad and she told him, Dad, I had this dream that I moved to Florida to be with you. Like, I was so happy. I feel like that's where I'm supposed to be. Can I move there to Florida? Yeah. And her dad said, of course, like wherever we are, you are welcome. Like that is your home.

Crime Junkie

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But Peggy couldn't just drop the phone and go like that's not real life. She had a job. She had an apartment. She had all these things that she would have to wrap up. But fast forward two days and instead of helping her plan a move, her dad and her brother were now planning her funeral.

Crime Junkie

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So Tom and his dad, they end up moving to Colorado so Tom could take care of his dad, also so they could be close to the investigation. But they weren't really getting a ton of updates. I mean, they kind of just got the party line, like this is active and ongoing. But that became harder and harder to believe as a lot of time went on.

Crime Junkie

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And really hard to believe when out of nowhere, Tom gets this call from someone at the police department who's like, Hey, we have a bunch of your sister's stuff. Like, if you want to come get it, like, we'll probably just get rid of it. Like, up to you.

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Fully evidence. But he's like, yeah, we'll take anything you have. So he goes down to the police station. They take him to this, like, garage across the street where they pull up the doors and they pull out two plastic bags with two paper bags inside and just hand it to him. And when he gets home, him and his family start to like open it up and go through it.

Crime Junkie

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But they realize, I mean, this stuff still has blood spatter on it. So they have this moment where they're like, I'm pretty sure we shouldn't have this. And they kind of try their best they can to package it back up and store it in case. But in case of what? Because nobody comes asking about the evidence. Nobody comes asking about Peggy.

Crime Junkie

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And most of the updates that they're getting are from the media when those even happen few and far between. So it seems like nothing on the surface is happening. And behind the scenes... it's really a lot of the same. Jim Broderick is still convinced that Tim Masters killed Peggy. And in all that time, where it's years now, Tim had been busy growing up.

Crime Junkie

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When he was 18, he joined the Navy, just like his dad. And for him, this was his chance to start over, to like have a clean slate, to not be the kid suspected of murder. Like he could go, put his head down, do the work, And that's what he did, day in, day out, month after month, year after year, all the way up until 1992.

Crime Junkie

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When investigators came out of that meeting with Tim, they were split in their thinking. I don't know what Hal thought, but Linda left thinking, no, like this isn't our guy. We've got this all wrong. Jim Broderick, though, was more convinced than ever. So in 1996, he reopens the investigation and says, After some time, by golly, he's got it.

Crime Junkie

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And so on August 10th, 1998, 27-year-old Tim is at home in California. He's out of the Navy by this point. And he gets this knock on his door. And he gets up to get it. Before he can even reach the door, the door is open. And there is this police officer standing right in front of him.

Crime Junkie

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It was a shock to everyone. I mean, like, I think people were looking like side to side, like, wait, what did we miss? What do they have that they didn't have before? What's new? Yeah. Yeah. Well, Tim goes to county to talk to his lawyer and he realizes nothing. What they have are his drawings and a star witness to talk about the drawings.

Crime Junkie

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Reed Malloy, without ever having spoken to Tim in those six months, decided that Tim killed Peggy and specifically that it was a case of displaced matricide.

Crime Junkie

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Yes. And it's not like Tim hated his he loved his mom. Right. Like we haven't talked about his mom, though, because by the time Peggy was murdered, his mom had been dead for four years. And it was really unexpected. Like his mom got sick. His dad was like, I'm going to take her to the hospital. And then she just never came home.

Crime Junkie

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I mean, I think they thought she had the flu or something, which, as you can imagine, is super traumatic for a young kid. Super formative. And it did happen. Her death happened almost like four years to the day of Peggy's murder. So the theory became that Tim was so upset that he became angry with his mom for abandoning him.

Crime Junkie

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And he, for some reason, is out there in this field in the wee morning hours and he sees Peggy walking home and he sees Peggy. Specifically, Peggy's red hair. And it triggers him. It reminds him of his mom's red hair. And he lashes out and kills her.

Crime Junkie

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She does not even have red hair. Like, this is what's wild. Her hair looks brown in this picture. And no one cares. This is what they go to trial with. Yeah. They go to trial with the drawings, this expert witness to talk about the drawings. And the defense in all of this, like throughout the trial, only calls one expert witness. Not because they're doing a bad job.

Crime Junkie

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Because there's nothing else to, like, refute. Their one expert witness is just to refute the drawing stuff. So it feels like there's no case here. And it feels like everyone can see where this is going.

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Over the past year, Brett, we've covered more potential and confirmed wrongful convictions than I think ever before. And we've been really fortunate to, like, play some roles in, I mean, like James Rayos' exoneration. We just this last year did a $1 million endowment to help start the Indiana branch of the Innocence Project. Because we're realizing that this is happening all the time.

Crime Junkie

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And it's not always this obvious as it is in Tim's case. Right. But it is happening and we have to fix it. And I don't mean you and me sitting here on this couch, like in our studio. I mean, we as in the crime junkie community, you guys listening, you are the jurors. You are the voters. You are the ones in your community making change, making decisions, making things happen.

Crime Junkie

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And I know that it can feel painful. So overwhelming. Like anytime there is a big problem and you realize a system is broken, it's like, how am I as one person going to fix this? But it takes one person and you don't have to fix it like overnight. Like that's not how stuff happens, right? Like you have to find the one thing that you care about and just take the one next step.

Crime Junkie

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And in this one, I mean, to figure out who killed Peggy Hetrick, the thing is Tim's wrongful conviction. And in a weird twist that we don't see very often is. Even Peggy's family wasn't super sold on the idea that Tim did it.

Crime Junkie

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I mean, they sat through the trial and at the end, they like didn't understand a conviction just based on drawings, but they had this mentality of something that we've said on the show before. Like, well, there must be something the police know that we don't know.

Crime Junkie

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But they could, they would, and they did. And so Tim gets carted off to Buena Vista Correctional Complex, where every day he wakes up in a cage for a crime he didn't commit. He takes classes. He works out. He gets a job in prison. All the while, his defense team is filing appeal after appeal. Appeals that are getting denied by the Court of Appeals.

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Appeals that get denied by the Supreme Court of Colorado.

Crime Junkie

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Exactly. Which is why at some point, Tim no longer even has lawyers and he's doing more appeals on his own, which if he wasn't optimistic before, I mean, the system like took any optimism out of him. But lawyers couldn't get these things through the court system. Like he's learning how to file an appeal for the first time at the same time he's trying to learn how to use Microsoft Word.

Crime Junkie

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He is less optimistic than ever. And what happened to Tim and what happened to Peggy, I mean, it not only changed Tim's life and Tim's outlook, it changed the lives and outlook of so many people. including Linda Wheeler, one of the early detectives.

Crime Junkie

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She saw what happened and she was so upset by it because not only did she believe he shouldn't have been convicted in the first place, but then to watch these appeals, these systems we have in place for checks and balances to not work. She said she did get that feeling I was talking about earlier where it's like the system is so broken. What am I as one person going to do now?

Crime Junkie

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To help it, even on the inside. Right. And she got so discouraged that she ended up turning in her badge. She had a complete career change because she just felt so overwhelmed by it. But it is just one person that changes everything in this case. And this is my like shout to crime junkies because it's not an FBI agent. It's not a detective. It's not anyone with a badge or a lawyer.

Crime Junkie

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It is a random CPA named Taylor Maris, who is just like you and me and everyone listening. One day he was watching this crime show, one of those crime shows we all grew up on. And as he's watching it, he's like he sees the drawings. Right. And he has this moment where he's like, oh, like I, too, made drawings. I wouldn't want the world to see. But like, I'm not a killer.

Crime Junkie

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All right, the man you just heard speaking was Tom Hetrick. And his sister, Peggy Hetrick, was murdered in Fort Collins, Colorado, back in 1987. And the thing is, there is still plenty that can be done to solve this case. The problem is the people who are in charge right now, who have the case, aren't doing what needs to be done to solve it. But our crime junkies know what helps with that, right?

Crime Junkie

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And he said that as he's watching, he kept waiting for that moment for them to like show the thing that makes him guilty, makes him guilty. Like, what's the piece of evidence? And he's like, I'm waiting. I'm waiting. And then the show ends. And after it ends, he's like, oh, my God, like someone should do something. I should do something. And so he takes just that one next step.

Crime Junkie

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He didn't know what to do. But his one next step is he wrote to Tim in prison. And he's like, listen, I see it. Like, how can I help? And Tim's like, man, I don't know. But if there is someone that can help, you have to get Linda Wheeler. Go talk to Linda Wheeler. So Taylor takes the next step and he writes to Linda.

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Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers.

Crime Junkie

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Now, as you can imagine... Fort Collins PD is not like welcoming Linda back with open arms.

Crime Junkie

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Yeah, she's trying to like upend a case that they're like overdone with. It's solved.

Crime Junkie

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So she ends up going to work for a DA's office with the understanding that she's going to work on Tim's case part time. Now, she knows by now a lot of time has passed. And if they're going to point the finger at someone else or even just prove Tim didn't do it, the best way to do that is DNA. Something they didn't have access to in 1987, but they do now.

Crime Junkie

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And she remembers meeting this woman named Selma at a conference before. And Selma and her husband Richard have this independent lab out in Holland. And independent is key because at this point they trust freaking nobody. And so now the wild part is like they can't just go testing stuff like most crime junkies will know this.

Crime Junkie

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But if you were wrongfully convicted and you think there's DNA evidence, you do not have the right to just test it on your own.

Crime Junkie

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Yeah, the people who put you there. Now, luckily, there's been enough like sus stuff happening that Fort Collins PD has recused themselves. Larimer County, which is the DA's office, has recused themselves. So there is a new DA that they're going to have to appeal to, a guy named Don Quick. And they're hoping like this guy has no dog in the fight other than just wanting justice.

Crime Junkie

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So Selma and Richard come to the U.S. They do this like four hour presentation in front of Don Quick. And by the end of it, Don's like, yes, I love you. Love the lab. Love what you're doing. Like, go justice. But then guess what happens next? That DNA evidence they were going to send off gets destroyed.

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Which is like they were already, Tim and his team were already suspicious that something sus was going on. And now they're more sure of it than ever. Yeah. So they do end up finding some stuff that they can send off. At some point, they had gone back to Tom and gotten the stuff that they gave back to him. The stuff, the evidence? They're like, you shouldn't have this. He's like, I know.

Crime Junkie

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So they like at least collect that. Thank God he saved it. And they end up sending some stuff off for testing. And at the same time, because they're convinced something like very fishy is going on, his lawyers make a request for a new trial based on the accusation that Tim's rights were violated. And they make four important points in this filing.

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A little bit of pressure, obviously. And a lot of noise. And so the reason we went on tour, the reason we're bringing this story again is we want to tell people why they should be making noise, why they should be straight up mad. Not just on behalf of Tom and Peggy, but so many people in our story. And it's a story that starts on February 11th, 1987.

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Number one, they say crucial evidence was withheld from Tim's defense team. And they point to two things. They say specifically the prints. And I think they're talking about the shoe prints in the field, the Tom McCann ones by the pool of blood on the curb. Apparently, they never knew, like his defense team never knew that those existed.

Crime Junkie

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The second thing that they didn't know existed was that first FBI profile that the police had done that said, Tim is not your guy. Didn't know that that was a thing that kind of just went away, which would have been really helpful in a trial. Their second point in this filing was the whole DNA destruction thing. There's that. There's that.

Crime Junkie

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And then the third is apparently there was like a mishandling of some skin cell DNA that they had. So some evidence that they had, but, you know, not only destroying things, then you're mishandling things like so much is useless. The fourth is that they ignored.

Crime Junkie

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viable suspects other viable suspects who were not Tim because make no mistake they did not just pick Tim out of a void there were other people that looked a lot more promising than Tim that his defense team never knew about and I'm going to be getting into those people in a moment But those are their four points.

Crime Junkie

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And as they're uncovering all this and filing this, I mean, they found out other things as well. Like the police were basically waging psychological warfare on this kid. So remember how I told you that in the first month of the investigation, you know, the newspaper showing up every day. It's like we've got our guy. We're honing in. Turns out that was not real.

Crime Junkie

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The Fort Collins police was making a fake front page of the newspaper, just one, putting it on the newspaper and delivering that newspaper to Tim's house.

Crime Junkie

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Mm hmm. And their whole theory about matricide, right, is Tim's like so upset about his mother's death that it caused all of this. Clearly, they like know that he would be upset. They had like his mother's obituary reprinted like over and over. They would cut it out, put it in envelopes and then like leave those envelopes around for Tim to find.

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And then when that didn't work in like the very first early days or whatever, come the one year anniversary of Peggy's murder, they concocted this scheme. Some might call it an operation. I say no.

Crime Junkie

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It's a scheme. And a lot of the paper trail of this has been lost along the way, like so much in this case. But what is left behind is just, it's bizarre. So Fort Collins authorities basically reached out to the FBI around the one-year anniversary and was like, hey, we feel like we have this guy.

Crime Junkie

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We can't prove that he's violent, but we feel like if we put him in the right situation, we can push him to be, and other people will see what we see. But... We're afraid that if we push him too far, like he might kill someone again. So we need you watching him. But if it goes too far, you have to pretend like this didn't happen. We didn't do this. You didn't do this.

Crime Junkie

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And we are officially back from tour. It has been a long couple of months on the road. But so much fun. So much fun to see all of you guys. And if you were one of the, you know, 75,000 of our closest friends who came out to see us, you'll know that the story we covered is super important and super timely and has like one of like

Crime Junkie

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Like we all had nothing to do with whatever it is he does. And the FBI is like, got it. And they're like, yeah, but also if he does nothing and we look dumb. Can't have that happen. Yeah. Like pretend it didn't happen. And they're like, got it. And obviously nothing happened. But it just shows you like the mind games they were playing with this, at the time, kid, child. Yes.

Crime Junkie

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So this request for a new trial gets filed. The DNA stuff gets sent off. And even now, Tim is still not optimistic. Like everything that can go wrong for him has. Why would this be any different? Even when everyone around him is telling him they think it will be.

Crime Junkie

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That's when a guy named Woody is bicycling to work. It's like 7 a.m. And even though it's February in Fort Collins, Colorado, like there's no snow on the ground, but it's cold. So I imagine he's just like head down, like pedaling, kind of in the zone where you like, you know, zone out a little bit. Yeah. But then something catches his attention in this field.

Crime Junkie

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That good day was January 22nd, 2008. He was let out of prison. Charges were dropped. But crime junkies know that doesn't mean he's considered to be innocent. And the DA can refile charges if they want to. Well, they definitely don't want to. At some point, the DNA stuff that they had sent off comes back with a couple of, like, partial profiles. None of it matches Tim.

Crime Junkie

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And the case that they had built, even the little bit of one they had, is, like, falling apart, right? Like, the people were hiding things. They were lying. Like, his rights were violated. So by June of 2011, Tim is fully exonerated. And he goes on to sue a lot of the people who helped put him in prison for so long, including Jim Broderick and Jolene Blair and Terry Gilmore.

Crime Junkie

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And when he looks down, he sees this splash of red. But he realizes it's not just red. This is blood. And so forget work. He has to call police. And when they show up, there is this hundred foot long trail of blood from that splash of blood by the curb all the way to the middle of the field. And that's where they find the body of a woman. Now, she's laying face up. Her arms are over her head.

Crime Junkie

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Terry and Jolene were the prosecutors at the time, but by the time Tim is suing them, they were exonerated. And what I find so interesting is that in this time when Jim is being sued or even looked into, he's on paid leave. After two years, he ends up resigning. And even though two grand juries find him guilty of perjury, the charges get dropped.

Crime Junkie

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And the judges, at least this is happening during an election year, they don't get reelected, but they don't get so much as a slap on the wrist. The other big win is for Tim is he gets to settle for about $10 million, which is great for him. I keep wondering, like, why is no one asking who else?

Crime Junkie

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Like they're not looking in to the prosecutors at the time. And just so you know, like those three weren't the only ones Tim sued. He sued like the city. He sued a lot of people. Those are just like the three main people. But no one is asking if this happened to anyone else. It's like they paid him out and they just wanted this to go away.

Crime Junkie

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Now, obviously, we reached out to Jim Broderick, Jolene Blair, Terry Gilmore for a statement. Didn't hear back from Jim Broderick. Jolene Blair said she didn't want to talk about the case. Terry Gilmore, actually, for the longest time, we didn't hear back from until like midway through the tour. And... What he said was basically that he really believed in Tim's guilt at the time.

Crime Junkie

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He said that the way the system worked and the way that like evidence was numbered or copied or whatever, it should have been really obvious if something was missing. And when we asked him what he thought about Tim's guilt or innocence now, he wouldn't tell us. So that's what he has to say. And in an interesting piece of gossip that has nothing to do with

Crime Junkie

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Obviously, when we were like when we look up people to like try and figure out where they are, we like try phone numbers, we try emails. Facebook is like a great way to like reach people for comment. It turned out now Jim Broderick and Jolene Blair are dating and went to Italy. Like what?

Crime Junkie

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I know. I know. And I was like, maybe I'm being like a petty Betty. But when I told people on tour, the collective like gasp, I was like, oh, no. Yeah, they're here for the goss too. So so they they're living their lives again. No repercussions there. And Tim, all he wanted was to move on and live his life as well. So when he settled his lawsuit, he moved to have the records in his case removed.

Crime Junkie

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Like, he didn't want people bringing this up over and over.

Crime Junkie

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Absolutely. It does make it really hard when I want to bring it up. Even with, like, Tim's blessing and Tom's blessing and everyone who participated. Luckily, we were able to get some of the investigative files, though. And those revealed some really interesting things. Because like I said earlier, there were... other very viable suspects in this case, far more viable than Tim.

Crime Junkie

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And I'm going to tell you about that in the next episode, which we're going to be releasing tomorrow. But if you don't want to wait, part two is available for you to listen to right now in the Crime Junkie fan club, along with another extra surprise way to get the details of this case that we are pretty excited to share with you. You can learn more about the Crime Junkie Fan Club and join today

Crime Junkie

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You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com. And you can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast. And we will be back tomorrow with the rest of Peggy Hetrick's story.

Crime Junkie

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Her bra and her shirt have been pulled up. Her pants and her underwear have been pulled down. And they can't see what's causing the blood. They suspect that she has some kind of wound to her back, but they won't know at the moment. What they can see is that one of her nipples has been removed. But everything else is still on her.

Crime Junkie

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I mean, her clothes, she's still got her purse like slung over her shoulder and everything is inside it, including her checkbook, which is how they realize she's 37-year-old Peggy Hetrick. Now, by 9 a.m., this field is a frenzy with officers.

Crime Junkie

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One of the people on the scene that day, Sergeant Ray Martinez, he said when he showed up, he was surprised to see basically all of Fort Collins Police Department there on the scene. He's like, this was an all hands on deck situation. The problem is, in 1987, not all of those hands were gloved. But when they actually touch her and turn her over, they see that they were correct.

Crime Junkie

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There's a wound to her back, a stab wound on her upper back that was causing the bleeding. And they also see that she has like grass and debris on her butt, which they start forming this kind of theory based around what they're seeing. Because if you follow that blood trail all the way back to the curb, what they see are some critical things.

Crime Junkie

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So they see a set of footprints, not Peggy's footprints, by this pool. And then they also see a cigarette butt in the pool of blood. And Peggy was a known smoker. So they start to wonder why. maybe she was like walking, got surprise attacked from behind. Like she's walking and smoking. She drops the cigarette and her attacker pulled down her pants and then drug her.

Crime Junkie

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And they're thinking that because of the grass and stuff found on her butt.

Crime Junkie

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They're also thinking that because there was not just the bloody drag mark, but there was also this trail where you could tell that something was like drug in the dirt and they suspected that it was her shoes. And I like I was literally like at one point you saw me dragging people across the audio check office. And the only way that makes sense is like because normally you drag someone.

Crime Junkie

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Exactly. So I think the reason they're thinking this is like she had to have had her pants down first, not because of the grass, but also because to make these marks.

Crime Junkie

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Right. The problem I have with this is, is there something that doesn't make sense to me? If they're dragging her and she's bleeding and her shoes are making this trail, those should line up. But the drag marks and the blood trail are actually very different. And at one point they even cross each other. Which nobody can seem to really make sense of.

Crime Junkie

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I mean, I've heard some people theorize, well, maybe there's two people. And what if one of them had her coat and the coat was bloody?

Crime Junkie

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the most active call to actions that we've had in a long time, which is why if you went on tour, you're going to recognize this story. We are bringing everyone this story because we need everyone's ears. And because we're bringing everyone the story, I also wanted to give everyone who couldn't make it on tour the opportunity to get some merch from our tour. Like,

Crime Junkie

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Like no one like undressed her and then redressed her that much. And it's also not the coat that's actively bleeding. You know what I mean? Like the blood is coming from her and for it to make a 100 foot long trail. It just doesn't add up. And maybe it's a red herring or we're not understanding what those are.

Crime Junkie

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Because the other thing I noticed is that Peggy's shoes don't seem really dirty in the photos that I have. And not that it was muddy or anything like that.

Crime Junkie

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I mean, there's debris on her body, on her butt. Right. So... The question is, how did she get out there in the middle of that field? And the other critical question is, who wore men's Tom McCann dress shoes size eight and a half or nine? Because that's what they determined those like critical footprints by the blood pool were.

Crime Junkie

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Yes. So when they do an autopsy, they realize that her nipple being removed, that was done post-mortem. So after she was already deceased, that wouldn't have been bleeding. The other thing they determined at the autopsy is she was also mutilated elsewhere. So she had genital mutilation as well. And her nipple being removed, the ME notes that that was done with surgical precision.

Crime Junkie

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And they said it was done with a small, sharp instrument, something like a scalpel almost, which was different than what was used to stab her because they determined that that was a knife that had a five-inch serrated blade. But they don't find either of those weapons in the field. And you know what else they don't find? Her nipple. But they're like, don't worry.

Crime Junkie

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We know exactly who to call to find it. The scouts.

Crime Junkie

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Yeah, that was not a badge I could have. But this is where I'm introducing a new crime junkie life rule. Always go a layer deeper. Once I dug, it wasn't the Girl Scouts or the Boy Scouts that were out there looking for body parts. It was actually something called the Explorer Scouts. But still kids. Oh, that's still fully like high school kids.

Crime Junkie

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And if you don't know, this is also like a quick PSA to my crime junkies. I am trying to put together an episode for the near future about the Explorer program. I'm not saying like pull your kids out if you have kids in it. I'm just saying pay attention. Get involved. Ask some questions. I have found there is a lot of abuse that happens in that program. So quick PSA, future episode to come.

Crime Junkie

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Hit me up if you have a story. But anyways, kids are out there looking for nipples, which they don't find. And the police are looking for a perp. And they decide that to find this person, the first thing they need to do is they need to get to know Peggy. They need to understand her last movements. So they start by going to her apartment.

Crime Junkie

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And they learn that she had a temporary roommate at the time named Sharon. And temporary is important because that night when Peggy got off work at around 9 p.m. from the fashion bar and she walked home, it wasn't far away, she found herself locked out of the apartment because they were sharing keys. And she's like banging on the door.

Crime Junkie

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That line every time was like out the door. We started late sometimes because of it. Hours long line. You guys are amazing. But you guys can have your chance for like another week or so to go to CrimeJunkiePodcast.com and snag your tour merch as well.

Crime Junkie

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And Sharon is either out drinking and forgot to get home in time to let her in or she got home. But because she'd been out drinking, she was like home passed out. Either way, Peggy's banging, banging, banging, can't get inside. So making the best of like a mess situation, she decides to go kind of bop around to a couple local bars. She has a drink.

Crime Junkie

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She's using the pay phone trying to like call home and wake Sharon up. By around midnight, she decides to head back. Again, banging on the door. And this time Sharon is there. She lets her in. But Peggy is not staying in for the night. She's there to do a little change of clothes, get out of her work clothes, change into jeans and a blouse or like jeans and a going out top for my millennials.

Crime Junkie

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And she goes back out. She goes to this place called the Prime Minister, also within walking distance. And this was a regular haunt for Peggy. So it's not surprising that she runs into somebody she knows. Her on-again, off-again, currently off boyfriend, Matt Zollner.

Crime Junkie

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Now, Matt was actually there at the bar that night with another woman, someone he had just met that evening, like didn't even remember her name. It was like maybe Sean. He said, though, he saw Peggy and they chatted for a little bit. He even offered her a ride when he realized that she'd walked and she originally accepted. But he like went to the bathroom when he came out. She was leaving alone.

Crime Junkie

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And so he figured maybe she has changed her mind or whatever. And so he said him and maybe Sean, they stayed till last call. Then maybe Sean went home with him. She stayed with him till like 3 or 3.30. And other people back this up. The bartender at Prime Minister saw Peggy leaving alone at 1.15 in the morning.

Crime Junkie

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And maybe Sean backs up that she was with Matt till last call, then back at his place till 3, 3.30. So this is the last time Peggy is seen. 1.15 in the morning, leaving the Prime Minister alone. And this does kind of work with their theory, because if you were to look at a map, which we'll have on the website, if you're watching this on YouTube, I'm sure it's popped up.

Crime Junkie

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The field where Peggy's body was found is kind of in between the prime minister and her apartment.

Crime Junkie

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Yeah. Smoking a cigarette. Surprise. Like everything's still kind of fitting. So the question is, who would be in this field, this like empty field in the early morning hours? Now, they had done an initial canvas and nobody in the area had seen or heard anything.

Crime Junkie

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But one detective, Linda Wheeler, she decides she wants to just go knocking on doors again, starting with the people like absolutely closest to the crime scene. And the closest trailer is like 200 yards away. And it belongs to a guy named Clyde Masters. So they go knocking on his door, and Clyde says the same thing. Didn't see or hear anything.

Crime Junkie

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But he says, you know, come to think of it, my son, 15-year-old Tim, he lives with him in the trailer, and he cuts through that field every morning to get to the school bus. And he says, you know, on that morning that you found that woman, he hesitated in the field a little bit. Like, didn't do anything, wasn't there long. I mean, he still made it to the school bus on time.

Crime Junkie

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So let me jump in because I want to share with everyone the story that had like thousands of people at a time doing like collective gasps. And I mean, I feel like people laughed. They cried. It was it's an incredible story. It's a story that needs attention. Please listen all the way to the end because we need your help. This is the story of Peggy Hetrick.

Crime Junkie

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But he says, you know, knowing what you found... Maybe it's just kind of weird. And police think it's weird, too, because they find out that Tim would have been going through that field at about 7 a.m., which is almost the same time that Woody ends up finding Peggy. Woody's the guy on the bicycle. So they're like, we know Peggy's there. If you saw her there, why wouldn't you say something?

Crime Junkie

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Why would you go on to school like nothing happened unless you were involved? So they go right to the school. They pull Tim out of class. And right away, before they say a word, he knows exactly why they're there. But he told investigators then the same thing that he told us when we interviewed him so many years later.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And the story I have for you today is about a gruesome discovery in a New York City basement, one that set off an investigation weaving together threads that you would never expect to find in a single case. A shadowy suspect. A tangled family tree filled with deception. An iconic rock club.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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So like late 80s or even the early 90s. And that's making sense to investigators. I mean, at the time, like 80s, 90s, New York was in the grip of a drug epidemic that was driving violence to levels that they'd never seen before. We're talking like 1900 plus homicides a year, except like it's feeling great, except that timeline might not be accurate.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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It takes a while, but they eventually end up learning that the estimate was wrong. The clothing label, the dates that they were given, were completely off. Manufacturing records show that it could have been made as early as the 60s.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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Yes, but for some reason, even though they're putting the label at the 60s, police still seem pretty set on the idea that this victim was killed in the 80s. I don't know why, but that's their thinking at the time. So what they do is they have an artist create a reconstruction of her face using detailed measurements from her skull.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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They get her featured on America's Most Wanted, which was like prime back then. But no one recognizes her. Now, they managed to determine that the human hairs in the carpet belonged to a blonde male, probably a white guy. But they can't say who that guy is. Was there like a lot of hair? Detective Glass described it as like a pinch, like about what you would clean out of a hairbrush.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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But they don't know. I mean, if it's the killers or if it was just like mixed up with everything else, like it's not going to be like the nail in the coffin for someone, right? Like that's not going to be the clencher. So fast forward a little bit. Over the years, the Emmy's office checks Midtown Jane Doe against various missing people. And at least one possibility does gain some traction.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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It's this big rectangular concrete slab, like six feet wide, five feet long, taller than your standard cinder block. And it looks just all kinds of wrong. Like it definitely doesn't belong here. And in a place like New York where lifers have seen it all, that is saying something. So a worker takes a sledgehammer to this thing.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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In August 2011, a woman named Maureen is online when she comes across the sketch of Midtown Jane Doe. And as she later tells Long Island Press reporter Jacqueline Gallucci, it stops her in her tracks. because she thinks it looks just like her missing sister, Judy O'Donnell, who vanished in 1980 while pursuing her dreams of becoming an actress and a singer in New York City.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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And it's not just her looks that strike Maureen as similar. She knew that Judy had been living on the streets in Hell's Kitchen. She knew that she'd been arrested for sex work, which, remember, is the going theory about Midtown Jane Doe. Plus, they both had expensive dental work that just seemed to stop like their lives took a sharp turn.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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Not hers, but those are Judy's grandmother's exact initials. And Maureen knows that Judy and their grandma were super close. And like... There's nobody in her family that remembers a ring like that, but Maureen thinks that it would be, like, probable that Judy might have, like, found it somewhere and kept it to honor their grandmother. Like, who knows?

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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So that October, a forensic specialist compared Judy's dental records to Jane Doe's. But they can't say if it's a match, one way or another. And after being encased in concrete for God knows how long by this point, her bones are so degraded that getting a viable DNA profile is like trying to get blood from a stone. So all told, they submit 33 different samples for analysis.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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But it's not until 2015 that they're able to get any sort of profile from Midtown Jane Doe. And it's not until the following year that they can confirm that Jane Doe is not Judy O'Donnell.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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Yes, and they are even able to put it into CODIS. But the sample is so small that scientists can basically only use it for direct comparison. But either way, you're right, it's progress. And in 2017, there is this renewed push to finally figure out who she is once and for all after a detective rediscovered the case while reviewing old, unsolved files.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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And he decided it was time to take a closer look. What they do now is they try to do isotope analysis, which basically looks at the chemical makeup of hair, teeth, bones, all of that to figure out where a person might have lived. And based on what they do, the results point pretty strongly to one region, the Midwest. The Minnesota Strip. Yes, it's got a name for a reason, right?

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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But the Midwest doesn't like narrow it down, right? It's not specifically Minnesota, right?

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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They were checking everywhere, all over across the country. So obviously the isotope test didn't really move things along. So when Detective Glass is assigned the case in 2022, he comes with totally fresh eyes. No preconceived notions about who she was or where she's from or how she got there. And what do you know? it gives him a different take.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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His gut is telling him that Midtown Jane Doe wasn't a sex worker and that he thinks she was killed way before 1980. And this theory might have just stayed a theory, but then something huge happens. A lab called Astraea Forensics, which specializes in analyzing low-quality samples, they managed to get a genealogy-grade DNA profile from one of her foot bones.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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So the NYPD's new genealogist, this woman named Linda Doyle, she is brought on board. And when they upload the sample, they quickly get two crucial hits. They get a first cousin on her dad's side and a first cousin once removed on her mom's side.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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And instead of the solid thud that you would expect to hear when you like hit concrete, there is this echoing sound that tells them it's hollow inside. And with the blow, the cement starts breaking apart until they see brown fabric poking through. And when they pull on it, a human skull starts popping out.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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And thank God, though, right? Like, they are long overdue for a break. And this is a big one because the paternal cousin's surname is McGlone.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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Yep. So Linda starts doing what genealogists do best. She's like digging into public records, old newspapers, obituaries, court documents, anything she can dig up and get her hands on that might show her where these two branches of Jane Doe's family tree intersects. And after all of this research... Linda can only find one person who fits the bill. 16-year-old Patricia McClone.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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She wasn't born after 1958. She wasn't a sex worker, as far as we know. And she wasn't from the Midwest. She actually lived right there in Brooklyn until she disappeared. Except Patricia was never reported missing. And here's just a random twist.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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So Patricia's paternal cousin, who died a couple of years before genealogy tracked the family down, he was actually a retired NYPD cop and had worked just one precinct away from where they found her body. Now, I doubt that they even knew each other. It doesn't seem like they were very, like the whole family was like a super close-knit family, but it was just... I thought it was so weird.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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I don't know. So while detectives have this tentative answer to the question that's haunted them for so long, they're now facing even bigger ones like who was Patricia? What happened in her final days? And how does a teenage girl just vanish without anyone looking for her?

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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So as Detective Glass and Linda dive into the investigation, they begin to uncover a story that has been buried literally for decades. And to even try to understand it, we have to go back to the beginning. Patricia's dad, Bernard McGlone Sr., was a busy man, to say the least.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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By the time he hooked up with Patricia's mom, who was also named Patricia, but let's just call her Pat, he had already been married twice. He and his first wife had two sons before they split. Then he remarried to this woman named Helen. They had a son. But while he was still married to Helen, Bernard and Pat got married in Virginia.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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Now, he knocked about five years off his age on their application, saying that he was 45 when he was nearly 50. And for some reason, Pat added a year, saying she was 21, but she was really only 24. Now, Patricia is born on April 20th, 1953. So this is about 10 months after her parents' so-called wedding, if you can call it that, since he's already married.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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And at the time, Bernard is still living with Helen, the other woman he's married to.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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And a partridge in a pear tree. Like, you're going to need a flow chart to keep everyone straight. Which is a great reminder for everyone listening to make sure you know that we have YouTube now. Like this episode will be up in a couple of weeks if you want the visual Crime Junkie experience. But trust me, I'm giving you the simplified version.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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Though if you really want the messy details, there is a great article in Rolling Stone by the reporter Sarah Weinman that breaks all this down. But anyways. Even though Bernard's two families live in the same Sunset Park neighborhood in Brooklyn, he somehow managed to keep his double life a secret for years.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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Now, the worker notifies the NYPD, and Detective Gerard Gardner, who just started his shift and is next up in rotation to catch a case, heads straight to the scene. Now, he knows right away that this is not going to be a routine investigation. New York City has more than its fair share of homicides, don't get me wrong, but cases involving skeletal remains are rare here.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

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Okay, so Nina interviewed Linda Doyle, and based on what we learned from her, along with Sarah Weinman's article, I'm pretty confident that Helen was completely in the dark. But with Pat, I'm not exactly sure. I mean, Bernard obviously wasn't, like, living with her and Patricia, right? So I assume that would have been a red flag.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

1606.974

But he was a long-haul truck driver, so being gone for these long stretches, like, wouldn't have been that weird either. But at any rate, in 1957, he apparently left Helen for Pat, although when Helen died of breast cancer a few years later, her obituary still refers to her as Bernard's beloved wife. So, like, Make of that what you will. And then Bernard and Helen's son, Bernard Jr.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

1639.102

Junior was in his teens when his mom died. So he moved in with his dad, Pat, and Patricia. But if there was any stability in their home, it didn't last long. In 1963, when Patricia was 10, Senior died of a heart attack. Pat became Junior's legal guardian, and he lived with her and Patricia for a while.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

1657.653

But in a brief account that he wrote about his life titled Sad But True, he said that he was totally alone after his father died. Meanwhile, as Patricia bounced between public and Catholic schools, her attendance got more and more spotty. She had to repeat a grade. Detective Glass and Linda can't even locate a yearbook photo of her. Like, she's not in any of them.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

1681.241

But they did find little fragments of Patricia's life on other school records. And a really troubling picture starts to emerge. Like at her first and only semester at a junior high she transferred to in late 1968, she only showed up for nine days of class. And obviously her teachers were concerned.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

1701.473

One of them noted that Patricia seemed well-behaved, but she questioned how she ever was going to learn anything if she was never there. And Pat was also reportedly worried, and she told school officials that she just didn't know who her daughter was skipping school with. But I don't know how much attention she was really paying to Patricia.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

1720.566

By then, she had started dating another married man, and I think he was living with them. Now, Patricia was totally closed off from her teachers, though she did mention being interested in something she calls beauty culture, which I'm thinking is probably like cosmetology. But they didn't think that she seemed motivated to continue her education.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

1738.542

But I don't know if motivation is the real issue here because, I mean, what really stands out to investigators are the last few memos in Patricia's student file, all dated 1969. including a report from March detailing a series of medical-related absences, and then another from May 8th when she dropped out of school for good.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

1762.876

And officially, her final departure was a quote-unquote medical discharge. But this isn't Linda's first genealogy rodeo, and she knows exactly what that phrase was code for back then. Patricia was pregnant, wasn't she? Bingo.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

1779.722

And this was all happening during what was known as the baby scoop era after World War II, when more and more girls and women were facing unplanned pregnancies out of wedlock. Single motherhood carried a very heavy stigma, not to mention the financial burdens of raising a child alone. And that combination of judgment and desperation was the perfect storm for exploitation.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

179.344

So he calls in the city medical examiner's forensic anthropologist, and when they dig through that concrete to the dirt below... They find a skeleton like curled up in the fetal position, all wrapped up in a rust colored carpet.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

1802.694

Many expectant mothers were coerced or forced to give up their babies, and some doctors saw it as a business opportunity. For a fee, they would discreetly connect wealthy couples looking to adopt with vulnerable young women who felt like they had no other choice.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

1819.471

So investigators think that the physician listed in Patricia's school records might have been involved in one of these shady operations, in part because of a bizarre incident documented in a daily news article. So apparently a gunman burst into this specific doctor's office on the Upper West Side one day at 9 p.m., while the place was still like buzzing with patients and staff.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

1845.413

And he robbed a patient of like $500 cash. And night patients and cash is a major red flag. It's definitely raising eyebrows for Linda. Now, word was that this doctor also performed abortions, which to me could explain the late hours and the cash. But Linda doubts that anyone in Patricia's Catholic community would have sent her to a doctor for something like that.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

1871.87

So it's also possible that Patricia had no plans to give up the baby that she might have had for adoption because her school paperwork had another bombshell waiting for investigators. It turns out that Patricia got married a day before she dropped out of school on May 7th, 1969. to a man named Donald Grant. I mean, did her mom have to sign off on that? Oh yeah, Pat gave permission.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

1897.064

In fact, she was their official witness at the ceremony.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

1903.945

Exactly. And who the f*** is he? Yeah. I mean, they assume that he might be the father of her baby, but investigators can't say for sure because they can't find a single person who actually knew Patricia. No friends, no neighbors. The few relatives that they're aware of have all passed away. So they don't have any details on how or when she met this Donald guy.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

1928.236

All they can follow is this paper trail. So from the school records, they go and pull the marriage license. And it is basically just one giant red flag. For starters, Donald was 32 when he exchanged vows with 16-year-old Patricia.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

195.15

And more like a tomb. I mean, there's no bottom to it per se. Like whoever did this might have put the body down or maybe even dug into the floor a little bit. And then what they did was they poured cement right over the top, almost as if they were building some kind of foundation. Now, at first glance, investigators don't see any obvious signs of trauma on this skeleton.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

1952.278

But the age gap isn't even the biggest holy sh** thing about this marriage license. Because guess what Donald put for his address? The building where Patricia was found. 301 West 46th Street. You got it. What's so extra interesting is that Donald's name is only listed at that address for one year in the 1969 city directory. And Patricia isn't officially linked to that building at all.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

1982.307

But it looks like their marriage license, like that's where it got mailed to. So investigators think that she probably lived there at some point. And all of this fits perfectly with the new timeline police are forming. They now believe that Patricia was killed during the summer of 1969.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

2007.619

Yeah, it was later. Detective Glass has a theory. He thinks that the newer items like the wrapper, stuff like that, that probably got shuffled into the original burial site somehow, maybe during all the construction work that was going on. I mean, that makes way more sense than Patricia being alive like into the 70s or even the 80s.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

2025.287

especially when you look at all of the other evidence, like the dime and the watch and all of that found with her remains. So armed with their new estimated timeline, police decide to shift their focus to a place that they initially overlooked, a place called Steve Paul's The Scene. It was this like legendary rock club that operated in that very basement from the mid to late 60s.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

2049.16

And when I say legendary, we're talking performances by Jimi Hendrix, The Doors, Fleetwood Mac. Like this was the hotspot. Even Andy Warhol hung out there. And the layout of this place was unusual. It was this massive maze of brick-walled cellars and passageways. But like everything else in that building, the scene wasn't destined to last.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

2076.397

By the late 60s, Brooklyn mobsters were demanding protection money from the owner. And get this, one of those mobsters was Tony Sirico, who is best known as Pauly Walnuts from The Sopranos.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

2097.476

The actual guy used to be a mobster, probably. But, like, he's not a suspect. The cement Patricia was found in, like, for a minute, it sparked all these mafia rumors over the years. But police don't think there's anything to that. Sirico is just, like, one of the many bizarre footnotes in this story.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

21.246

The September 11 attacks mob shakedowns tied to a gangster who would later find fame on The Sopranos. Like you name it, it is in this case. And at the heart of it all is a teenage girl and the decades-long mission to restore her identity. But even though she finally has her name back, justice still remains out of reach. And police need your help to find out what really happened to her.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

2114.264

But before he became an actor, he was a legit criminal known for shaking down nightclub owners, including Steve Paul. But Steve didn't want to deal with all the drama, so he shut the club down in maybe July or August of 1969. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

216.763

They have no doubt that this is a homicide.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

222.544

Yes, but theoretically, I mean, they could have died from something nonviolent like an overdose and then whoever was there like panicked and covered it up, whatever. But that's not even a consideration here because the victim was hogtied with pantyhose and an electrical cord, which is also wrapped around this person's neck.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

2301.906

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

2380.336

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Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

240.455

But even though they have a huge potential clue about the cause of death, like with these things, they've still got their work cut out for them. The concrete might have helped to preserve the skeleton, but what they're dealing with is just that, bones. There is no flesh, there is no muscle, nothing. And even the bones aren't in great shape.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

2410.316

Thank you. Thank you.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

2473.237

Thank you.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

2511.186

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

260.027

Like the outer surface starts like peeling away on them, kind of like old paint chipping off of a wall. So an ID is going to be difficult. However, they do find some pretty promising clues. They discover that this person had long fingernails and the victim is wearing a tan bra.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

277.132

There's also a glittery fabric with red and yellow sequin that they think might come from some kind of clothing, which all hints to them that this might be a female. Now, the anthropologist can also get a pretty good sense of this person's age. The victim's wisdom teeth haven't totally come in yet, which usually happens between like 17 years old and 25 years old.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

2871.687

Crime Junkie is an Audiochuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? No.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

298.268

And their collarbone isn't fully fused, meaning that this person's bones were still growing when they died. And while they don't find a purse or ID, the victim is wearing two pieces of jewelry that could be huge for identification. So there is a 1966 Bulova watch on their wrist.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

315.584

and a yellow metal signet ring on their right pinky finger with the initials PM, lowercase c, G. Now, everything gets hauled into the lab, and a couple of days later, Detective Gardner gets an update on the findings that starts painting a clearer picture. They can now confirm that this definitely is a female victim, a young woman between 15 and 21 years old, somewhere between 4'10 and 5'4".

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

344.608

She had a narrow face, petite build, and reddish-brown hair, some of which was still attached to the skull. According to America's Most Wanted, her pointy chin and the shape of her skull and the eye sockets led them to believe that she was likely white. Now, looking at her pelvic bone, the anthropologist thinks it's unlikely that she ever had children, although they can't be sure.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

366.213

But it is her teeth that really tell an interesting story because she had expensive dental work done on her back teeth. But her front teeth were starting to rot before she died.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

391.598

Now, investigators theorize that she might have been one of the kids who maybe ran away to New York City chasing big dreams or something. But whatever she was looking for, I mean, obviously she found something very different. And that idea isn't totally out of left field.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

406.141

So the detective who's working the case now, Ryan Glass, he told our reporter, Nina, that this part of Hell's Kitchen specifically, like including this very building, which is 301 West 46th Street, was known for drugs and sex work. It's right by the Port Authority bus terminal, which is often the first stop for young people coming into the city.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

426.023

But that also makes it a magnet for predators looking for vulnerable teens. Cops even nicknamed the area the Minnesota Strip because so many of the girls being trafficked there were runaways from the Midwest. And the basement that she was buried in has its own interesting history. So it was home to a speakeasy in Prohibition, then a rock club in the 60s.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

45.925

This is the story of a woman who for more than two decades was known only as the Midtown Jane Doe. It's Monday afternoon, February 10th, 2003, and construction workers are clearing debris from a basement of a rundown five-story building on West 46th Street in Midtown Manhattan, a neighborhood known as Hell's Kitchen.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

456.76

Oh yeah, it's definitely not like that old. Okay. But they can tell that she has been there for a while. So her skeleton is mostly intact, but some bones were missing, like smaller ones from her like hands, feet, stuff that could have maybe been carried off by rats.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

469.306

And speaking of rats, when lab techs process the scene, they find this, like, whole little ecosystem that developed around her remains. Maggot casings, rodent bones, a nest. And there were also animal and human hairs in the carpet that she was wrapped in. And then there's like this random collection of items that they find mixed in with everything.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

490.64

Pieces of Sears brand feed and weed bag, scraps of rat poison wrapper, like a plastic green toy soldier, some duct tape, and a dime from 1969. The dime is so crusty and corroded that they can barely make out the date, but they do.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

511.957

Right. So, OK, that's hard to say. Some of it was definitely in the mix with her remains, like the Sears bag and the toy soldier and that dime were actually in the rug with her. which makes me think that maybe they were just kind of lying on whatever carpet that she ended up being rolled up in. Or, I mean, it's also possible that she had those things on her. Like, who knows?

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

531.828

But the other stuff, like the rat poison wrapper, probably that stuff came, like, it was more in the concrete. I mean, it's really, like, kind of a showdown there. But all of this stuff still helps create kind of a rudimentary timeline. Like, those little green army men, they became huge in the 50s when everyone got freaked out about lead poisoning from the metal ones.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

551.912

But then the dime tells us that she couldn't have been killed before 1969. Then the rat poison wrapper, that brand didn't even exist until the late 70s. So taking everything into consideration, they think she was killed sometime in the 70s, maybe the 80s, but they're leaning more toward the 80s given the history of crime in that stretch of the city.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

575.66

Now, even after the medical examiner, whose name is actually Dr. Happy, even after Dr. Happy checks everything out, he can't find any injuries that definitively show how this person died. But given the electrical cord around her neck, Dr. Happy is thinking that it was probably strangulation. And while they don't know for sure if she was sexually assaulted, nothing seems to point to that actually.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

600.134

Her bra was still properly in place, not like pulled down or messed with. And they also find scraps of dark fabric near her hips and legs that might be from pants or shorts, along with some buttons. So right now, they have no name, no suspects, and no motive. And they're like two decades behind. All they can do for now is try to build a profile of what kind of person could have done this.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

628.459

Police believe the killer had to be someone who knew that building inside and out, probably a regular in the neighborhood. They would have needed to know their way around concrete as well and that particular basement. And there's actually a few ways to access this basement from inside the building, plus a steel trap door that opens to a neighborhood parking lot.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

650.598

But they don't think that this was just some random person who wandered in. I mean, think about how much time it would take to construct something like this tomb, as we're calling it. This is a place that her killer felt comfortable in.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

673.349

Yet Detective Glass estimates that they would have needed at least 50 bags of concrete.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

679.032

to basically make this thing that she's encased in.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

683.715

So it's a little hard to tell at first, but it might have just been a regular basement back then. Like TBD, we'll kind of get there. But this building in general, like investigators at the time quickly realized that it was never a kind of place where people would stay long. Like by the time they're canvassing in 2003, the place is practically empty. There aren't any long-term residents.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

705.369

Even the superintendent is fairly new. And the first floor is just an adult video store, and some of the upper floors are completely blocked off. And they do end up finding one guy who worked in the area back in the 80s, but he can't tell them anything useful about the space.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

722.519

So with no witnesses to work with, Detective Gardner shifts focus to the physical evidence, starting with that boulevard watch. He's hoping that the serial number might lead them to whoever bought it. But according to New York Post reporter Al Gouart, that is a total dead end.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

738.568

It turns out that Boulevard just randomly assigns serial numbers for insurance, like they don't actually track the purchases at all. So they move on to what they think is actually their best chance at identifying her, that ring. So Gardner teams up with the FBI and starts searching nationwide for missing persons with PMCG in their initials.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

760.296

Now, based on their timeline and what they know so far, they look for people born on or after 1958, and they get 11 names back. But after comparing things like race and age and other characteristics, they have to eliminate every single one. So next, they dig into arrest records, checking out every woman with those initials who's been charged with a crime across the country.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

785.062

And they're doing this thinking that maybe she could have been involved in sex work or maybe drugs. And if that's the case, maybe she had a run-in with law enforcement. So that search gives Gardner another 500 names to chase down. But still, even with those 500 names, he gets nothing.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

835.173

To your point, there are serial killers. Even that MO is a little off. But there actually was one of the first potential suspects, at least that we know of, that they look into was someone who targeted sex workers and someone who took elaborate steps to hide their bodies or at least make sure that these bodies couldn't be tracked back to him.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

854.005

Now, this guy is among New York's most notorious serial killers, Joel Rifkin. Rifkin terrorized women all over the city in Long Island from the late 80s into the early 90s. The only reason he stopped was because he got caught driving with a missing license plate, of all things, like that he could have gotten caught for. And when he did get caught, police found a decomposing body in his pickup.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

877.093

Now, he ended up confessing to killing 17 women, though he was only ever convicted technically of nine murders. Now, what we know about him is he strangled his victims, all of whom were sex workers or women struggling with addiction, and he was super calculated about disposing of their bodies.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

895.364

And the thing about him is he used different methods each time, which made it really hard for investigators to connect these crimes. And get this, according to biography.com, with his second victim... he actually put her dismembered head, arms, and legs into buckets and then filled those buckets with concrete and dumped them into the East River and a Brooklyn canal.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

918.467

Now, only catch is that Rifkin was known for leaving bodies outside, in water, in woods, near highways. Sometimes he put them in oil drums, but as far as we know, he never stashed anyone away indoors. And I'm not exactly sure how or if they ruled him out back then. I know Detective Glass interviewed him years later after he inherited the case.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

941.463

But in 2003, even though they're interested in him, they don't seem to really focus on him. Gardner tells Al Gwart that there's time. Rifkin isn't going anywhere. Like, he's serving over 200 years in prison.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

959.431

Well, at the time, I think they were wanting to know more about their victim, who the press is calling Midtown Jane Doe. I think they want to figure that part out before going to him. And we've talked about this before, right? Like, you try and get, like, all your ducks in a row so you know when someone's lying, you have all the facts.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

97.705

Now, this place is in pretty bad shape, and the only reason the workers are even down there is because the restaurant next door arranged to rent part of the basement just for storage. So they're doing their thing when one of them notices something weird in the corner behind this old boiler.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

974.6

Like, they might get only one shot at those interviews, and without solid information about who she is, they would be at a huge disadvantage. I mean, truthfully, they still don't even know when she was killed. But, according to America's Most Wanted, they do catch a break with that when they send crime scene soil samples to the lab. Mixed in with some dirt, they find a torn up clothing label.

Crime Junkie

IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe

997.605

And after techs like clean it up and look at it under a microscope, they can see seals showing that it was made by the International Ladies Garment Workers Union. So Detective Gardner reaches out to them, hoping that they can date this label. And when he gives them the numbers and the letters and all the things on the seal, they tell him that it could not have been made before December of 1987.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

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Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flower. And I'm Britt. And this is part two of our look into Reese Pocan's story. So if you haven't heard the first part, please go back and listen because we're picking up right where we left off. When our reporter, Emily, realizes that this case goes way beyond Reese,

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

1055.784

It's crazy. Maybe because of a lack of cooperation, maybe for a zillion other reasons, the investigation stalls. Though no excuse is an acceptable one to Elise and her family. They don't feel like investigators did enough at the time. And she's heard that there was lost evidence in the case, and she thinks that multiple agencies didn't coordinate well. It seemed to her to just be a mess.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

1080.7

But they didn't just mess up a job the way that you or I might screw up like a spreadsheet. This is her mom's literal life. And you only get one shot at the early days of an investigation. And now that's lost. Investigators hope back then was that if they could find Ray's head, maybe that would give them some physical evidence to work with. But they searched for five months without locating it.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

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I don't know because not all of Ray's remains were found. Police told us that it was only her lower half that was found. And that, and again, we know her head was never found.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

1126.707

But could there be some other reason? Yeah, we kept asking detectives that very question during our reporting and nobody could say for sure. I mean, they pointed out that obviously if a killer was like a seasoned criminal, like you're saying, they might do that for identification purposes.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

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It's also possible that this is, like, depending on, you know, who the killer was, what the relationship, the motive was. Like, just plain revenge could be another factor. We also had some sources tell us that in certain cultures, it is a belief that someone can't rest in peace without being buried fully intact. So there could be several different factors at play. But to go back to Ray's case...

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

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I mean, we have the most badass group of women here at Audio Check doing the absolute Lord's work. But like try calling up the FBI and saying that you have a podcast and there might be a serial killer. Right. Honestly, it's going to be a little easier because Crime Junkie actually is pretty well known now. We have a lot of law enforcement fans. Like, thanks, guys.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

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We spoke with Chief Tortola, and he said he still has suspects in Ray's case, and no one has been excluded as a person of interest. Unfortunately, though, lots of people that he wanted to talk to have since passed away. And he hoped maybe for a deathbed confession in this case, but that's never happened. He says he did do some DNA testing, though. On what? I don't know on what.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

1185.877

He wouldn't tell us. But I think the what is the wrong question, because that's what I was getting to. There is a question that is far more interesting to ask. So the who they did testing with is one that I was like fascinated with. Because at one point, Chief Tortellat said that he had his DNA tested to prove that he wasn't involved.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

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Not clear. Like we tried to ask the FBI, but they never got back to us.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

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Correct. But he's also been working this case since the beginning. Like, he's the guy that's been heading it up from the tribal side for almost 30 years.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

1233.614

So I feel like the FBI would have stepped in if he was a real person of interest. I don't know. And for all I know, there isn't even DNA evidence to compare stuff to like that's something that they wouldn't share. It's all so muddy and complicated. And we were this close to getting an interview like with one of the detectives working on this case.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

1255.196

Emily actually reached out to the detective who is directly assigned. He agreed to talk. But then Chief Tortelot wouldn't authorize the interview. And since our coverage has been ongoing for like years now, we even went back and asked again. And the detective said that he isn't allowed to do media interviews.

Crime Junkie

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I don't know if that's because of the shared jurisdiction with the FBI or why everyone is so hush-hush on Ray's case, why Chief Tortolat doesn't want him talking. But it seems like they don't want people asking questions or like getting the word out, which in my opinion just hurts their chances of actually receiving tips in her case. Yeah.

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So at a certain point in her adulthood, Elise gets to the point where she feels like she needs to take matters into her own hands, conduct her own interviews with Ray's closest friends. And honestly, her primary goal isn't even to get her mom's murder solved. She wants to just learn more about her mom and keep her name alive through conversation.

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But other podcasts have made fools of themselves by calling the FBI and they end up becoming the butt of like internet jokes. So Emily tried reaching out to various FBI field offices in Wisconsin, but like only ever got connected with a PIO who then never even returned a call or an email.

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So yeah, Josephine. And Ray had a sister too. And that's who Elise lived with. And she had her dad. But Elise, she said she never felt like she could ask questions because anytime Ray would come up, like it would just make everyone so upset. So she really grew up with her mom being this like taboo subject in her family.

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And of course, we know the extended family is also reckoning with the death of another relative.

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I know. We don't know exactly how close they were as cousins, but they definitely crossed paths on the Menominee Reservation where they grew up. Reese's daughter, Michelle, remembers seeing Ray perform at powwows or, like, traditional Native American culture celebrations. She performed as a dancer. And I know that Reese knew about Ray's murder,

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because of a tip that Hatch found buried in Reese's case file. A tip in Reese's case file about Ray, and it is chilling. The tip is from a woman named Geraldine, or Jerry, one of Reese's friends from church. And when interviewed by police in 1990, Geraldine reveals that just two months before Reese went missing, Reese confided something in her. And here is Detective Nathan Hatch.

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He who? This is gonna eat you alive. She told Jerry a name, but Jerry couldn't remember the name.

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I wish.

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I know. It seems almost impossible that investigators never connected the two murders, but they just never compared notes. In fact, we actually connected the investigators in both cases just this past year, in October 2024, and that's when they finally sat down and had their first ever meeting. Wait, I don't understand.

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But undeterred, she, you know, compiles everything that she's found into a document that she sends off to Detective Hatch, who trusts her. And in turn, he sends it to the FBI field office in Milwaukee. And here is what was in that document. Our list begins in 1982 when the partial remains of a Jane Doe are found in Caledonia, which is in southeast Wisconsin.

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Not until our reporting team came along.

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I know. So they're talking 2024, but like no huge breakthroughs happened at this fall meeting. It did finally bring together tribal police, the county detectives, the feds, the state investigative agencies. They basically went down the POI list in both Ray and Reese's case to see if there were any overlaps. Unfortunately, no one knows who.

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Again, it all comes back to what is the name that Reese told Jerry? Who was she afraid of? But nobody knows. I do know that what comes out of this big meeting, everyone coming together, is that investigators, detectives all left that meeting with a new to-do list full of leads that they wanted to follow up on that are still underway as of this recording of this episode.

Crime Junkie

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And the whole jurisdiction thing seems to be a major hurdle, though not just in Ray and Reese's cases, but in most of the Wisconsin dismemberment cases that Emily and I found. And I asked Detective Hatch about these two.

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So that brings us to our next case, Julia Baez, known to most people as Julie. She was last seen in June of 1990, about nine months after Reese's disappearance. Unfortunately, we don't know the exact date that Julie was last seen alive because she isn't reported missing until nearly five months after the fact.

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Well, because of different relationships and reportedly Julie's prior drug use, her two sons weren't living with her. One of them was with his dad, another was in foster care. And then her 14-year-old daughter Marisol was with her father in New Jersey. And then Julie's 10-year-old daughter, also named Julie, was in foster care in Milwaukee.

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Plus, according to Julie's half-sister Luz, the one who eventually does report her missing... Julie lived this very transient lifestyle. So Luz tells police that Julie made a habit of going off on her own and she would like return weeks later. I don't know where she would go and actually Julie's daughters don't remember even their mom doing that.

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But apparently Luz began to get concerned because nobody in the family had heard from Julie in a while. She wasn't with their mom in Puerto Rico, and her apartment manager hadn't seen her around at all there. In fact, according to police reports that we got through a records request, it had been so long since the apartment manager had seen Julie that he actually moved her stuff into storage.

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According to the Doe Project, they're still trying to identify her. But the woman was likely between 45 and 60 years old and had given birth at some point in her life. Then, in March of 1983, in Racine, which, by the way, is just 11 miles from Caledonia, a woman's arms, hands, and legs are found buried in a backyard. She's identified as 51-year-old Helen Sebastian.

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In Julie's missing persons report, Luz tells police that she last saw Julie June 18th, 1994. at a tavern about five minutes from Julie's apartment, and that Julie left the bar after having an argument with her boyfriend, Pedro. So police looked at Pedro. It seems like they're at least initially suspicious of him, but on paper, it never led to anything official.

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So of course, we did some of our own digging. The day that Julie went missing, her daughter Marisol was with her grandma, Julie's mom, and Marisol remembers the last conversation she had with Julie.

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So based on interviews that we did and then the records that we got, I actually think both stories are true. So we learned that Julie actually went out with her BFF, Maricela, at a tavern where they were regulars and a tavern where Pedro was known to play in a band. That's where Julie and her girlfriend supposedly went dancing that night. And the bar is no longer there.

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But for our Milwaukee crime junkies, it was at 15th and Mitchell. And it was possibly called the El Winoco Lounge. And reports state that Luz, again, this is Julie's sister. It's actually half sister. It says that she was at the bar that night. So she tells police that Julie and Pedro got into an argument and that Julie left never to be seen again. Was Pedro interviewed? I wish I knew.

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Like, again, the police reports we got through the open records request are like super thin. I know police at least got a statement from Maricela, the friend that she was with that night. Obviously, they got a statement from Luz. But they didn't give us any copies of like the friend's statements or any of the follow-up reports about Pedro, if there were any. And so that was basically it.

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Like, there were some routine follow-ups on Julie every few years to see if she had, like, renewed her driver's license or if any of her kids had heard from her. But at some point, with no more viable leads, the case just went cold. And I'm talking, like, completely cold. No other follow-up is done until 2012. Yeah.

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Yeah, she's never found. But also, it doesn't seem like police were actually looking for her. Right. So literally, there's this note in the case file in August 2012. Mind you, this is 22 years after she goes missing. And I think it's so bananas, I need you to actually read it.

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22 years later? But, like, what does that mean? Does it actually mean anything? And, like, of course her name is on the mailbox 22 years later. Right. So, the thing I also don't know is, like, there's nothing in the report to say why an officer was even sent there in the first place.

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Like, did they get a...

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Again, they can't possibly think they were going there to see Julie. The note says follow up on what? I know. And like, it's possible, again, maybe someone all those years ago gave the wrong address for her or someone made an error writing it down or something. I really don't know.

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Again, as for why 22 years later, I'm assuming I have to think someone called in and asked for an update or made a tip. It just doesn't make sense to me. And I can't make sense of it with what they gave us.

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And she discovers a disturbing pattern of dismemberments turning up all around Wisconsin. This episode will focus on two of those other victims and everything that we could find out about their cases from loved ones, detectives, tribal chiefs, coroners, and police reports. This is the story of Ray Tortolat and Julia Baez.

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Seems that way. Yeah. And over the next three years, there is this like annual follow up with the case. But the reports are never more than a couple of sentences long. And in 2013, detectives call the number on file for Julie. But like, it's no longer in service. Duh. Yeah. So they check with the Department of Transportation to see if she updated her address.

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I have truly become obsessed with Helen's case, and I hope to bring you a whole episode on her one of these days, but today's not that day. So seven months after that, in October of 1983, dismembered partial remains of a man are found in Petrifying Springs Park in Kenosha County, a mere 15 minutes south of where Helen's dismembered body was found.

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But it hadn't been updated since around the time she went missing. And then it's the same story in 2014. And then in this 2014 report, the detective writes that Julie was reported missing by Luz in 2010, which is just like straight up wrong. But this detective at least tries to contact Luz unsuccessfully.

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And actually, we tried to reach Pedro and her friend too, but no luck. So come 2014, Marisol, her daughter, decides she needs to put some pressure on investigators. Now that she's older and she can understand the situation a bit more, she goes back to the police station herself.

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And what do you know? Eight months later, in July of 2015, detectives call Marisol and her sister Julie back down to the station. Their DNA had been a match to a Jane Doe's remains. What? Jane Doe? Where? Where and when?

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So as it turns out, on October 10th, 1990, so this is four months after Julie disappeared, a man in Black River Falls, a city three hours west of Milwaukee, was out foraging for mushrooms when he stumbled upon a garbage bag containing... a human arm and leg. And then when police descend on this area and search it, they find more bags of dismembered remains nearby in a shallow grave.

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And it looks like it had gotten partially dug up by animals. Now, according to the Jackson County Sheriff, quoted in the La Crosse Tribune at the time, most of the parts were bones, but some still contained some flesh. And after a thorough search of the area, officials told the papers that the only body part that they could not find... was ahead.

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And according to Marisol, this discovery site was near a reservation as well, just like in Ray's case. And if Black River Falls sounds familiar, remember Larry, Reese Pocan's violent ex-boyfriend? Yeah. Remember, he now lives in Black River Falls. But at the time, no one makes the potential connections.

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Police in Milwaukee and Jackson County, where Black River Falls is, aren't even thinking about Ray Tortola or Reese Pocant. They're telling local news outlets that the body was likely dumped by someone traveling through the region because this spot is a halfway point between the Twin Cities and Milwaukee. And they say, quote, people feel they're in a remote area.

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Plus, there were no missing people in their county. And I almost couldn't believe this when I read it, but the Jackson County Sheriff said, quote, Jackson County is not the only place anything like this has happened. There are lots of them. There have been bodies found in Vernon, La Crosse, Marathon, and Juneau counties all over the state.

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This person is identified as 18-year-old Eric Hansen. He's our only male victim. Now, in May 1984, in Vernon County, which is western Wisconsin, a woman is found lying on the side of a gravel road a few miles outside of the town of Westby with her hands cut off and major trauma to her head. She has still never been identified, but she was likely in her 60s and wore dentures.

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You have heads without bodies, bodies without heads, bodies without hands. Jackson County is not by itself in any way.

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Listen, I don't know, but I'm willing to bet that the sheriff only said this to somehow make the situation seem less like a big deal. Like, oh, don't worry, residents. There is nothing wrong with our county. This dismemberment stuff is happening everywhere. Oh, I feel way better now. I know. And now again, when he's making the statement, like the remains are still unidentified.

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But I'm kind of shocked that it took so long if they were looking for missing women far and wide. Now, the timing on all of this gets a little unbelievable because they only ended up doing DNA testing on this doe like months before Marisol gets Milwaukee PD to take her DNA, which is two decades later.

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And what's also wild is that in all that time, Marisol had been looking for her mom, and she told us that she had seen that Jane Doe's NamUs page a ton.

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For Marisol and little Julie, just knowing where their mom was provided a huge relief. Julie had gone her whole life thinking that her mom had just abandoned them. As a kid, she was in and out of 12 different foster homes until she was finally adopted.

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Finally, with a name for their Jane Doe, the Jackson County Sheriff tells the leader telegram that they're going to get to the bottom of who killed her. That before it was hard because they didn't have the name of their victim, didn't have a starting point. But all that was going to change starting now. Well, that was in July of 2015.

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Unfortunately, from what I can tell, no further breaks ever come in the case. The only reason we know the little we do is from like an incident report. We also asked for interviews with detectives who like have her case or jurisdiction. They denied our request.

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Emily did speak on background to a law enforcement source who worked on the case, but that source doesn't work for the Jackson County Sheriff's Office anymore. So like we didn't get a ton.

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And it doesn't seem like they ever even considered that their dismemberment case could be connected to any others because Marisol and Julie, by the way, didn't even know about Reese Pocan or Ray Tortolat's cases until we brought them up in our interview.

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That's what they know about her. And her hands have still never been found. 30 minutes west of there, in February 1985, 24-year-old Terry Dalloway is found decapitated and on fire in a rural part of Vernon County. Now, Terry's case was unsolved, but there actually was a break in the case in the fall of 2024 when charges were brought against a man named Michael Popp.

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It's really only Detective Hatch in Sheboygan County who's trying to shed light on all the similarities between these cases.

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Hatch is also working with Jackson County authorities to see if anyone on Reese Pocan's suspect list matches anyone in Julia Baez's case file. And he presented to the FBI's Cold Case Homicide Task Force about all of these Wisconsin dismemberment cases, some of which were not even on their radar. So these are all cases I wish I had more to bring you on.

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But we felt like the best thing we could do at this point is to just like get everything we do have out there for people to hear. Because maybe someone out there knows something about these Wisconsin women and our one man. Maybe someone is in law enforcement and they have a similar case that we don't even know about from that time period.

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And if nothing else, maybe everyone can just come together and let Charlie and Michelle and Elise and Marisol and Julie all know that their mothers haven't been forgotten. That for this one moment, millions of people across the world are thinking about their moms. I believe there's so much power in the collective human consciousness.

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You might call it prayer, whatever we call it, however we direct our intentions to a singular focus of peace and justice, I do believe it's powerful. Here's Reese's daughter, Charlie.

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And here's Julia's daughter, Julie.

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Now, he pleaded not guilty in January of this year, actually. So, like, developments in her case are actively underway. Unclear if Pop is a suspect in any other cases. If this is, like, the outlier on all of this. I don't know. It's still actively unfolding. Then in spring of 1987, Indigenous woman Rae Tortolat's dismembered body is found on the Menominee Reservation in northern Wisconsin.

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This idea of speaking up, of bringing attention to the cases of women of color, was echoed by Ray, Julia, and Reese's daughters. Here's Reese's other daughter, Michelle.

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Crime Junkies, please help us get justice for Reese, Ray, and Julia, and all of the Wisconsin dismemberment victims. From the get, our hope was to tell all of these stories. 12 total. That's still our hope, but there's just not enough information out there. We've tried getting interviews with detectives in all of the cases. We've filed records requests with little success.

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But let's make sure that the conversation doesn't end here. I'm going to put the list of cases that we want more information on in the description for this episode and on our website. If you have any information about any or all of the cases I've talked about last week and this week, in both part one and two of these episodes.

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Or if you know anything about the pattern of dismemberments in Wisconsin, please reach out to Detective Nathan Hatch at the Sheboygan County Sheriff's Office. You can reach him at his office line, 920-459-3135, or at his email, nathan.hatch at sheboygancounty.com. And you can also message us. If you know something or if you're a loved one of one of the victims, drop us a line.

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We're counting on you to help us tell these long, overlooked stories and finally get some answers for the victims and their families. You can find all the source material for this podcast on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.

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We'll be back next week with a brand new episode, but stick around. We've got some good for you.

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Then in the summer of 1989, we know Reese vanishes from Milwaukee, and then her remains are found in Sheboygan County and then the Vernon Marsh area in Waukesha County. The next comes on Thanksgiving Day, 1990. That's when the clothes and skeletal remains of a Jane Doe are found by deer hunters in Price County.

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I love it. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

Crime Junkie

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Through dental records, they're identified as belonging to Susan Poupart, who is an indigenous woman who vanished from a reservation in northern Wisconsin in six months prior to being found. Now, Susie's story has a lot of twists and turns. Our reporters became really interested in it while researching these cases.

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So that's the one I'm actually gonna be covering on the deck, which again is the other weekly podcast I host. So just keep an eye out for that one as well. Also in the fall of 1990, a Jane Doe's dismembered remains are found buried in a number of plastic bags near Black River Falls, Wisconsin. Her torso is buried in one bag. Her limbs are buried in a separate bag. Her head is never found.

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And this woman is later identified as Julia Baez. And I'm going to tell you about her case in this episode. But after her, in 1991, a woman's body is found with severed hands at the Goose Lake Wildlife Preserve in Dane County, Wisconsin. Her hands had been cut off and are later found in Walworth County. She's laid to rest as a Jane Doe, but later identified as Doris McLeod.

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A man convicted of sex trafficking has long been suspected in the teenager's murder. Then in October 2002, Boy Scouts find the skull and lower mandible of a Jane Doe in a ravine in St. Croix County, which is like far western Wisconsin. And authorities have said that they likely belong to a Native American woman between the ages of 35 and 50.

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And then lastly, in 2021, you heard that right, 2021, a skull is discovered in Oneida County, Wisconsin, which is found way up north, not far from Vilas County. The skull is missing a lower jawbone. And last I heard, investigators are working with anthropologists to determine who it could have belonged to. But a source told us that they thought that this person could have been Native American.

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And here's the wild part. So that is our list that we're working with. One of the women on that list, the one I said I'm going to be covering, Rae Tortolat, she's Reese Pocan's cousin. What? Yeah, the connections are too bizarre to ignore.

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There really should have been a statewide task force or something, but because the cases were mostly in separate counties, no one was connecting the dots until now. So I need to step back from Reese's story and tell you about two of the other cases that we're going to dive into, starting with Reese's cousin, Ray Tortelot.

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So if you Google Ray, the first thing that pops up is this beautiful portrait of her when she was a Menominee tribal princess. From the people we spoke to, it sounded like Ray was super involved on the reservation. And the reservation is the last place she was ever seen on October 14th, 1986. That's when Ray, who was 18 at the time, went to a small house party.

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At the time, the Green Bay Press-Gazette reported that there were six other people at that party, all of whom Ray was friends with. So the story goes like this. Around midnight on October 14th, Ray says that she wants to leave the party and she gets a ride from one of the other partygoers. But when they get to her house, she doesn't want to go inside.

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So they kind of just drive around the reservation for a while and then they head back to the party. And then a little while later, Ray leaves the party again. But no one knows exactly when she ducked out that time or if she was with anyone when she did. I'm assuming this is all happening a little while after midnight. But honestly, the reports are like, they're really slim, not super detailed.

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So she walks out and then poof, she is just gone. She never makes it home. And the next day she's nowhere to be found. She gets reported missing to the tribal police, who act pretty quickly to put together search parties with canines. Like, they question everyone at the party that night. They contact other reservations and Indian centers.

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And they also search the house where the party was, but they didn't find anything helpful. So this search for Ray goes on for two and a half weeks, but there is just no sign of her. And around this time, the tribal police chief tells the Green Bay Press-Gazette, quote, I've kind of given up a little bit, but I'll be out there looking again later on.

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No, but like to his credit, I mean, he actually contacts the FBI for assistance in the search, but they basically tell him that they can't conduct a full scale investigation without evidence of a crime.

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They say there is, quote, nothing to indicate to us that foul play was involved or that there was a federal problem, which is like a frustrating response to me, especially considering like it is tribal land and that is FBI jurisdiction. Right.

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At one point, detectives put a call out in the papers asking anyone who might have given Ray a ride during the early morning hours of October 15th to call them. No one does. Which to me makes that alleged ride that she got all the more suspicious.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

627.729

It's kind of your job to find the evidence.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

629.39

And it's usually the families, right, who are shouting that from the rooftops. And that's how it was for Ray's family. Ray's mom, Josephine, tells the local papers that Ray had gone off on her own before, but it was usually for like three or four days, and they always knew where she was.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

644.658

Josephine says that Ray didn't seem unhappy or distressed before the party, and apparently she had planned to be in a friend's wedding several days after she went missing. Plus, right before Ray went missing, she had just become a mom. Her newborn daughter, Elise, was not even two months old. And listen, I know new momming is like the hardest thing in the world. I cannot imagine doing it at 18.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

668.326

But everyone who knew Ray felt it in their bones. She wouldn't have left her daughter. But as for detectives with no leads... They're like really scraping the barrel. They even connect with a Native American psychic from Chicago who apparently tells them that Ray is either dead or in serious trouble.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

686.041

And the psychic actually describes an area where Ray's body might be, which detectives promptly search to no avail.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

698.528

And why they write them off so much now. And actually, in particular, this psychic, their name's Robin Furman. And she used her clairvoyant abilities to help with a number of police investigations in Wisconsin and other states. She claimed that she could get impressions, basically, of missing people. And I'm not sure if it's because of Robin or because of something else that I don't know about.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

720.495

But around this time, investigators change their tune, finally, to say that they do believe that Ray may be dead. But when asked whether or not foul play is involved in the case, they say, and I'm quoting here, yes and no. And before you ask, like, I have no idea what they meant by that.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

739.985

Investigators never really explain that cryptic answer, but they do tell reporters that they have several suspects, including the men who, like, Ray allegedly got a ride with, like, from the party, like, to her house and then back. Wait, detectives know who they are? So they do, but no names are ever released to the public. In fact, I've never seen names in criminal cases so closely guarded before.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

75.253

By searching through newspaper archives and public records databases, our reporter Emily started finding more dismemberment victims in Wisconsin. In the years surrounding Reese's murder, at least 12 people, 11 of them women, were found whose heads or hands had been cut off during or after their murders.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

763.604

The chief of the tribal police, Chief Keith Tortolat, wouldn't even tell us their names off the record.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

773.507

So here's the thing. So the chief is actually Ray's cousin. Would that also make him cousins with Reese? Yep. I think they were like first cousins once removed. So like this case is personal for him, I would say. Anyway, they believe they know who gave Ray a ride. Again, that first time. We're not talking about like we don't know of anyone who like after the second time she left.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

796.502

From the party back to the party. Right. But they clearly don't have proof of anything because months go by without any arrests or new information. It's just like this flood of rumors. But those rumors must hold a little truth to them. Or just the sheer amount of time that goes by with no word from Ray finally holds more weight.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

815.883

Because four months in, investigators officially announced that Ray Tortolat's case has become a murder probe and that they're calling in the FBI. Now, again, investigators won't say why they believe Ray was murdered. They say they have a suspect in mind, but just not enough evidence for an arrest. Again, names of the suspect or suspects never released.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

837.327

And then in April of 1987, two months later, detectives are finally able to prove their assumption. Ray was murdered. The announcement comes after a hunter stumbles across a bra strap while he's out walking in a remote area of the Menominee Indian Reservation, which leads him then to a headless female body. Pretty much everything.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

860.689

Every article at the time about the discovery mentions Ray in some way, so she is definitely on investigators' minds, but they don't want to say anything without proof. It's three days later when Josephine is able to identify the body as belonging to her daughter based on her clothing, and then a scientific identification comes through DNA testing, but that doesn't happen for 10 years.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

882.855

But at the time, detectives trust Josephine's words. Now, an autopsy is also done and the manner of death is ruled a homicide. But Chief Tortelot told us that for a number of reasons, mainly the state of the decomposition and the swampy area where the body was found and the missing head, the coroner wasn't able to determine a cause of death.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

902.697

And honestly, Britt, after this ruling, very little progress at all is made in Ray's case. And as much as we tried to dig into this case on our own, we ran into a lot of hurdles and a lot of roadblocks. For one, as Chief Tortelot told us, Ray's case file is very thin. Her investigation went cold almost immediately. And the work that has been done has been like extremely hush-hush.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

929.656

Plus, people on the reservation are hesitant to talk about it, even to Elise, Ray's daughter.

Crime Junkie

WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2

94.798

Now, a handful of these women are still unidentified, and most of the cases have never been solved. All in different jurisdictions? For the most part, yes, which we're thinking is maybe why no one has kind of looked at this holistically before. And like when you see this, we haven't come across something like this. Like who are you supposed to tell?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And the story I have for you today is one that I was dead set on telling because I have seen bits and pieces of it before. But when I actually dug in, it was one of those cases where the story reported is not the real story. And I couldn't understand how it got so twisted. So if you think that you know this case, you probably don't.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

100.034

But instead of a payday, he nearly gets a heart attack because when he tears open the bag, he sees a tan corduroy jacket spattered with blood. The scent of expensive perfume wafts up from the jacket, creating this like weird dissonance between what he's smelling versus like what he's seeing. Now, the jacket is wrapped around something hard and lumpy.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1013.811

They thought it was, at first, they're like, I thought it was a joke. But now, again, everything looks different in hindsight. And with everything that Bill's done since, they're like, oh. Like, this legitimately could have happened to Robin. Mm-hmm. So you see why everyone's suspicious of him. But the PIs, as they're talking to police, they're telling them all of this.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1033.829

They add one more thing before they leave. They say that they can't be sure if J.R. is totally innocent in Robin's disappearance. Like there is a good chance that he might have something to do with it. Because why? Because I don't know. Like that's the stuff that's conveniently left out. But it might be left out because they don't have a real reason.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1053.65

Other than like he's the one who's dating her, if not trafficking her. And the read between the lines thing I see here is that he's Black. Robin is a biracial Hispanic woman. And there is like when you're looking at the research materials and the reporting, there's like the kind of this whiff of racism and sexism, especially discrimination against sex work in a lot of the coverage on this case.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1076.345

So I think they just kind of like plant the seed with Trooper Landry. Here's all this stuff on Bill, but don't totally ignore JR. Thank you. So Trooper Landry's first move after talking to the PIs is to try and confirm the tan jacket is actually Robyn's. Conveniently, Robyn's dad had already showed up to the station because somehow he had heard about the tan jacket that had been found on I-95.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1102.923

And he's sure that it's Robyn's. But to be extra sure, they contact J.R. and ask him to come down to the station with a sample of her perfume to compare to the scent that is still like clinging to this jacket. Mm-hmm. And once J.R. arrives, there is no doubt in anyone's mind. J.R. recognizes the jacket, too, and that perfume still on it is the same one that Robin wears every single day.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1128.63

Now, Trooper Landry is confident that her dad isn't a suspect, so he sends him home to have time to grieve in peace while he goes in hard at J.R. And there are no softball questions. He opens with, Oh, wow. But J.R. is distraught and clear that he would never hurt Robin. He loved her. They were planning to get married.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1150.756

He claims they never even fought, and he says the person they need to be looking at is Bill. And after four hours of the third degree, Trooper Landry starts to believe J.R., so he lets him go. Though they do still search the house that he shared with Robin and her new apartment that she had just recently got where she brought clients to. But in both of those places, they don't find anything.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1173.868

They just confirmed that no one laid eyes on Robin since the 5th. But strangely, people had heard some weird noises coming from her apartment after the 5th. And not weird like a struggle or something unexplained. Like, they were legit strange. Like, it was someone playing the flute and singing in a high-pitched voice. Oh, that's weird. Unexpected? Yeah.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1200.879

Now, Robin actually did play the flute, so maybe could have been her. But the important thing is that none of the neighbors actually laid eyes on her or saw who was in the apartment. So now, Trooper Landry's sights are set squarely on Bill. So on March 16th, police bring him in for questioning. He's condescending and shifty, but he admits pretty quickly that he was Robin's client.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1228.006

The truthfulness ends there, though, because when he's asked about that cut on his head, he gives yet another story. Of course. This time he says he was mugged by two men who hit him with a metal pipe Not his briefcase this time, but they stole the briefcase. Now, despite all the inconsistencies, Bill just doesn't strike police as their most likely suspect.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

125.063

And as he peels back the layers, he sees a man's bloodied blue shirt, then a small two-and-a-half-pound sledgehammer, also with blood on it. And stuck to the blood on the sledgehammer is a long strand of dark hair. Joseph calls his friend over, wondering if they should call the police. But the friend is like, no, we need to stay out of whatever this is. It's not like we found a body here.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1258.459

Yeah, I don't think they start to like really understand the depths of that until after their interview with him. So when they talk to him, they end up letting him go because they don't have anything to hold him on. And it's after that that J.R. gives them all these letters that Bill wrote to Robin. Which painted a picture of a man who hoped their relationship would turn into something romantic.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1282.23

Like he had convinced himself that someday Robin would stop charging him and even give up sex work to be with him. But then there's this like tone of the letters that like shifts to apologetic. He's apologizing for the way he's acting. Apparently he had insulted Robin and made her uncomfortable and he was promising to be better for her.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1304.164

And sometime in between, Bill had also outlined a plan to put Robin on the Tufts payroll by hiring her as a research assistant so she could show some kind of documented income and leave sex work behind. So like the plan was for Bill to submit invoices for artwork and other things that she was doing for his research projects.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1322.657

And even though Robbins' brother remembers her being excited about this opportunity, according to Linda Wolfe's reporting, no one at Tufts remembers ever seeing her in the lab. So police can't actually confirm whether or not she did that work. And she's not the only one that he put on the payroll. So Bill also put JR's ex on the payroll to somehow pay Robin even more money.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1348.155

Like the ex would basically go cash a check from Bill, which was from the payroll, and then that money was given to Robin. And then he would also invoice Tufts himself and use his reimbursements to pay Robin, too. So along with stalking, he was embezzling money from, like, a major university. All in an attempt to spend more time with Robin. And this is, by the way, after only knowing her.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1371.987

Like, this started after just a couple of weeks, according to when those letters were written. So Bill is not looking great, but they need solid proof of something. I mean, he admits to being with her around midnight on the 5th, but what happened after that? Where did she go? Was that even true? Was she ever even seen after she saw him? Those are the things they needed to figure out.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1395.663

So using records from Robin's answering service, they put together a rough timeline of March 5th. What they find is that at 3 p.m., Robin left home to buy a birthday gift for JR's son. Around 7.45, she stopped at a bar in the combat zone to let JR's ex know that she would pick her and her son up to go to the son's birthday party the next morning.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1418.21

Around 8.40 p.m., Robin meets a client at a Boston high-rise, but the appointment lasted less than an hour. And right before she left, at around 9.30, she called her answering service, and she was told that someone claiming to be J.R. had called to pick up her messages. But when she called J.R., he's like, nope, wasn't me. So we're thinking this is Belle. Probably.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1441.81

Now, I'm sure that he shouldn't have had that number. That was, I mean, probably the whole point of going with the service. But stalkers can be relentless. And I don't think a number was going to stand in Bill's way. So we know she left that high-rise client at around 9.45 saying that she was rushing to meet another client, quote, between the wife and kids.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1466.236

So Trooper Landry thinks that this was likely when Robin left to go see Bill. At 10.07, we know that her answering service got a call from a guy named Joe inviting her to a party. And at 11.42, the answering service has a record of Robin calling in and leaving a message for J.R. saying that she was on her way to that party. Except this isn't a true answering machine.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

149.629

Plus, he's like, I get that it looks like blood, but it doesn't mean it actually is blood. And listen, if you want to bad enough, you can convince yourself of anything. So they put the trash bag back in the can. And they move along, just determined to not get involved. I cannot relate to anything less. As a crime junkie? No, I know. I would want to get the most involved.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1492.188

Like, this is a service, so there is a middleman, like, taking down the messages. And the person who took this message says, you know what? There was actually something really weird about that last message from Robin. That last time that Robin called in to say that she was on her way to Joe's party, the person who took the message said it didn't sound like her. It sounded more like a man.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1519.746

And while the person at the service didn't know whose voice it was, if it wasn't Robin's, they could say for sure that it at least didn't sound like JR's. But someone else working at the service says that one of the messages left by the person claiming to be Robin sounded like a man disguising his voice to sound like a woman.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1538.037

And we haven't touched on this yet, but you know who has a super high-pitched voice already? Bill? Bill. So after that, there's nothing. Nothing. At 9 a.m. the next morning, the trash bag with the bloody items are found.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1555.987

Police don't know yet. They're still working to track down this Joe guy. So we'll come back to that. But as Trooper Landry's processing this, J.R. actually calls him to report that a $200 check that Bill wrote to Robin on March 2nd was stopped. Now, Robin had deposited that check on March 4th. Again, everything she goes like missing, whatever, on the 5th.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1577.338

So either Bill or his wife Nancy had to have canceled their endorsement on the check on that day or the day after. Almost like Bill knew that Robin wouldn't need that money. So on March 19th, Trooper Landry questions Bill one more time, asking him to lay out the night of March 5th once again. So Bill claims that Robin stopped by his house at around 10.30 p.m.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1602.207

to deliver some artwork that she'd been doing for Tufts, which I'm sure police, like, automatically believe this is a lie because they already know from J.R. that he's Robin's client. Like, whatever. So then around midnight, she leaves, he says, to go meet this mysterious Joe. And that was allegedly the last that Bill saw of her.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1622.405

Trooper Landry asked Bill to tell him the whole story, again, hoping to catch him in another inconsistency. But Bill just tells him a completely unrelated story, like he doesn't even bother. He says, you know, the Tuesday before Robin went missing, I parked my car near her apartment while I went to see a movie. And when I came back from the theater, the car was stolen.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1642.276

And then the next day, after meeting Robin at a motel, Bill says that he was thrown into a van, beaten up by three Black men who warned him to stay away from Robin.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1658.466

None of this is connected. It's not. Everyone is confused right now. So here's the thing. So Bill claims that he didn't report this abduction to police because he didn't want his family to know that he had been with a sex worker when it happened. He's like letting them know now.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1681.778

I feel you. But Trooper Landry lets Bill talk because it seems like he enjoys spinning a yarn. And what he's shooting for right now is enough to get him a search warrant. So, like, let's just let this guy ramble. And so he, like, changes the subject and he starts asking Bill about that scar on his forehead. And Bill tells a fourth story about how he got it.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1701.164

And it's kind of the same as the others, but he adds details about his attackers and changes the location again. This time he says he's attacked by two young Black men in D.C. who hit him on the head and stole his precious briefcase. Ashley, everyone wants this guy's briefcase. I know, literally everyone. And actually, I haven't told you this part yet.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

171.958

I would make this my whole personality. But we are not Joseph. We are crime junkies. But he is Joseph. And he does find himself like thinking about this back even after he gets home. What if it really was blood? What if someone out there is hurt? He can't just sit with it anymore. So he does end up calling police that same day. It's state trooper Paul Landry who gets sent to check this out.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1721.756

So there are literally so many stories and anecdotes in Teresa Carpenter's book called Missing Beauty. I can't even begin to hit all of them. But there's this whole story of a time when Bill called the police saying that Robin stole his briefcase.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1735.646

And according to the police report, the two of them had like this heated argument outside of his house where she was like, give me what you took from me and I'll give this back to you. And in the end, police were like, you two need counseling. Figure it out yourselves. Bye. And Trooper Landry actually asks him about this specific incident. And Bill's like, oh, yeah, that was nothing.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1755.585

We figured it out. So that just kind of gets like washed off. But again, like this, I don't know what's up with this briefcase. So then Landry asked him about the stopped $200 check, which Bill explains by saying that he paid Robin the money in cash when she was at his house on the 5th so that he just like canceled the check, which like I'm pretty sure wasn't part of his like original story.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1774.18

Like, yeah, but not important. Not important. Like Landry like knows he's lying. He's pretty sure at this point that Bill murdered Robin. But for some reason, like in all of the reporting on this, like it also seems like he feels sorry for this guy. Mm.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1803.875

Yeah, it seems like he's like, oh, man.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1807.397

Well, like, this guy really, like, got his heart broken. Like, he's...

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1821.173

I don't know. It seems like, I don't know, there's a little bit of this idea of, like, this vixen woman. Like, I'm telling you, this is, like, part of the larger story is, like, kind of what gets under my skin here. And it's, like, I think maybe my religious trauma showing. Like, we used to be told, like, don't tempt men, right? Like, it's our fault if a man cheats.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1838.816

Yeah, the responsibility is ours, not theirs. And there's a little bit of that that I am like reading between the lines and feeling. Anyway, Trooper Landry gives Bill one last out, one last chance to fess up. What did Robin do to make him kill her? But he still doesn't give Trooper Landry anything.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1856.437

So he decides to move on to Nancy, Bill's wife, and he calls her down to the station for an interview. Now, her story of the night of the 5th goes like this. She got home at around 7 p.m., found a note from Bill saying that he was out for a walk and that Robin would be coming by at around 7.30 p.m. Now, Nancy didn't want to be home when Robin was around. Like, same girl. So she went to the mall.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1881.702

And then she picked up two of her kids, drove home at around 1130, where she saw Robin's car still parked in the driveway. So she kind of just drove around in the car until she knew that Robin's car was gone. She said that was around 215. And when she went inside, she saw Bill already asleep in his bed. And then she went to sleep in the living room.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1912.63

No, so that's actually missing along with Robin. So they're looking for that too, but no leads on it yet. Now, Trooper Landry asked Nancy if she noticed a wound on Bill's head that night or the day after, but she says she didn't because she wasn't even really paying close attention to Bill anymore. Like... They're on the outs by this point. She said barely even speaking these days.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1933.308

I mean, since she found out about the cheating? Exactly. I mean, when she's like found out, it's like in her face, right? And she says that they were, everything that they were doing communication-wise, she says was like happening through note. So it's bad. But even though they're distant, this dude still seems to have a hold on her.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1951.905

Because when Trooper Landry tells her point blank that Bill is a suspect in Robin's disappearance, Nancy refuses to believe it. So they're not going to get anywhere with her now. Luckily, though, the search warrant that Trooper Landry wanted to get is approved. But investigators have their work cut out for them because Bill's house is a straight up mess. And I'm not talking about just clutter.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

197.806

And when he finds the trash bag and sees everything with his own eyes, he is not as quick to dismiss it. He knows blood when he sees it, and this blood is still sticky, which means that it's pretty fresh. Whatever happened to whoever it happened to probably happened around sometime like the night before.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1976.021

This thing is filthy, infested with roaches. There's rotten food on the counters. It is damn near unlivable. It's like Lisk vibes. What do you mean by that?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

1991.788

Oh, yeah. I don't remember. I haven't seen the pictures in a while, but it was like I remember them. I remember some of this stuff being said about his house, too. I don't know what that means or what that says about them. I'm sure there's a ton of psychology behind it.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2004.434

But police in this situation and maybe this is the thing across the board is when they looked at this, they said this looks like a family in crisis. Which it is. This is not a happy home. Yeah. And seeing that, they're like, oh, maybe Nancy didn't want to talk to us today, but maybe we actually can get her to flip down the line.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2025.731

She may be protecting her husband now, but clearly like she's not living a happy life. She's not living in a happy home. We might be able to get her on our side. So Trooper Landry checks the house for places that looked cleaned up or painted over. He beelines for Bill's room, which is just as messy as the rest of the house.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2044.051

But in the chaos of Bill's closet, Trooper Landry finds a treasure trove of evidence. First, there are tape cassettes, which when played are recordings of Bill making harassing calls to a massage parlor that Robin used to work at. He ended up getting her fired from that job. Second, there is an audit report showing that Bill stole at least $46,000 by conning Tufts. And that's like 80s money, too.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2070.049

80s, $46,000, right. And he also finds a long handwritten note that Bill... wrote trying to come up with an explanation for his financial crimes. Was it a briefcase? That essentially chalks it up to, like, he's under a lot of stress, and he claims that he's using the stolen money to pay off this mysterious girl who drugged him and took incriminating photos of him for blackmail.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2095.108

So he's, like, I think preparing his defense or testing it out. I don't know. There's also a tape recording where Bill tells his story to another person This, like, co-conspirator that police can't identify. And the voice could be a man's. It might be a woman's. Maybe Nancy's. Maybe a colleague's. Even could be Robin's. They don't know.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2117.527

And then they find a lot more love letters and copies of Robin and JR's phone bills with notes in the margins. Like, he was tracking who she was with at all times and working to uncover her other clients' names.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2133.121

They also find a pair of Robin's underwear, two address books that were stolen from her apartment, a stack of her credit cards, a pocketbook that smells like her perfume, and chillingly, they find her flute. Her flute. Her flute. Her flute. So he was the one singing and playing the flute? In his high-pitched voice. Oh, my God. Every once in a while, the full-body chills still get me.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2158.31

And when I read that, I was, like, imagining him in her empty apartment after he did something to her. Playing her flute. Playing her flute and singing. Now, the stuff that they find, the list goes on. Under the kitchen sink, there are trash bags that match the one found at the rest stop. There's also a beeper for Robin's answering machine, which explains how he would listen to her messages.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

216.061

So Trooper Landry collects the items and sends them to the state crime lab for testing while he puts out feelers for any crimes in the area that this might be related to. Assaults, homicides, missing people. Nothing pops up right away. But about a week later, Trooper Landry gets word that there is, in fact, a missing girl.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2184.355

Which like back in the day, you guys, by the way, this is how it used to work. Like it would beep you when someone left you a message and then you would call into your machine to get your messages. And since he is the one who got her the machine, he just kept the beeper. So he would know whenever she got a voicemail.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2200.858

And there's even a cop's card in Bill's wallet, which proves to police that Bill was the one tipping them off about Robin every time the cops were showing up at her place. And wouldn't you know it, all of his shirts are the same size as the one found in the bloody bag. But they actually think they can tie him to that bloody bag more conclusively.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2225.211

Because, listen, so Nancy is there when all of this is going down and the detectives pull out the bloody blue work shirt from this evidence bag asking, like, have you seen this before? And Nancy's like, yeah, like, it could be. It looks like Bill's.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2243.216

Yeah, they did. It didn't prove anything. All it did was prove the fact that it was blood, that it was type A blood. The assumption is that it's Robin's blood on everything, but they didn't actually have Robin's blood type. So that's kind of where the buck stopped. And I assume this evidence got like returned after that.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2261.277

But like I was saying, there is something specific on the shirt that Nancy thinks she might recognize. So there's this stitching in this like there was like a tear that had gotten mended in the armpit. And she's like, oh, that actually looks like my sewing. And in a move that I think surprises everyone, Nancy hands the detectives a spool of thread. And she's like, I might have used this to fix it.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2286.463

Oh, my God. And of all the things that they could have collected at this house, this is one of the most important things. Because one of those spools that she hands them matches the thread. So now police can conclusively link that shirt to Bill. He is more than just a crazed stalker. He is a killer.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2311.601

I don't know if they know yet. I mean, when they do luminol tests, the only hit that they get is on the pocket of a windbreaker that Bill says might be his. And then inside the pocket, they find this like quarter-sized chunk of something gray and gooey. They're not sure what it is. They obviously take it into evidence.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2333.494

And they're thinking like, you know, if something did happen in the house, they don't know. But they rule out the idea that he could have transported her body in one of the family cars because those cars are both clean. But... Robin's car is still MIA. Robin's car is still missing. And so they're thinking, like, okay, if he did have to try and support something, it could have happened in her car.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2352.386

Now, at some point, they show Bill this avalanche of evidence that they have. Like, while they're still there in the house... And Bill has to agree, like, things don't look good for him. And he admits that the flute and the pocketbook are Robin's, but he claims he doesn't know why her other things are in his closet. Like, he even suggests, like, maybe J.R. planted them there.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

237.034

Someone had apparently heard someone else talking about a newscast that they saw about this missing person. So he literally doesn't even have a name or even a place, but it has to be somewhat regional, right? Like it's worth a shot. So he starts calling all of the major channels in the Boston area and neighboring Rhode Island asking about this broadcast.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2378.171

I know. Police call him a liar. They remind him that they believe Robin is dead and that her family deserves to bury her. But Bill insists that he told them all he knows. And now Bill wants a lawyer. When police leave Bill's house, they know that they won't get much more out of him. And Nancy and the kids are the only potential witnesses to anything that happened in that house.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2403.91

But despite Nancy's small gesture of help with those spools of thread, like that's it for her. Like she's not talking either and she's not letting the kids talk. Now, with no experience as a district attorney, I can confidently say that I would feel good about bringing this case to a jury. But the district attorney at the time, not so much. There weren't a whole lot of no body cases back then.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2428.866

Plus, there were some loose ends that they still had to tie up. Like, for one, they had to prove that she never made it to that party. Right. I mean, that was Bill's story after all. Like, she left his house to go to a party at some guy named Joe's. Well, guess what? Easy door to close. So Landry learns that Joe never even threw a party the night that she went missing.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2457.051

Joe is real. Cool. But no party. Got it. Means he didn't call her. So who left the message? Exactly. All of a sudden, things are shifting in police's mind because they obviously think... Bill left the message, which means this feels like premeditation. Yeah. That he was, like, covering up for what was going to happen. Putting his ducks in a row before he even needed them.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2482.608

So they found out that one time when Robin came to see Joe, she had a man waiting in the car that matched the description of Bill. Or, like, the car, Bill's car. So they're thinking... That, plus him keeping track of her calls, means that Bill knew about Joe and freaking set the calls.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

25.844

This is the story of Robin Benedict. March 6, 1983, is a cold spring morning in Mansfield, a suburb of Boston, Massachusetts, the kind that makes you feel like winter's never going to end. But instead of using his Sunday to sleep in, a man named Joseph braves the freezing weather to collect bottles along I-95.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2508.177

He was planning. He was planning to kill her and planning to pin it on someone else. There is no question here, especially after the crime lab calls. The results are back after testing that gray glob from the windbreaker. And while there is still no body, there is no question now that Robin is dead. The gray substance found in the windbreaker is brain matter.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2537.31

And about the same time Landry learns this, he also finds out from Nancy's police officer brother that her dad had lent her and Bill a sledgehammer not too long ago that looks an awful lot like the one found in the bloody bag. But just when you think it's over for Bill, the testing said that it was brain matter, but it didn't say that it was necessarily human brain.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

256.824

And it takes a few hours, but later that day, he gets a call back from a Boston news director confirming that they did run a brief broadcast on a woman who was reported missing by her boyfriend in a town about 40 miles away from that rest stop where the stuff was found. And at first, Trooper Landry's not convinced that this woman is his victim.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2566.29

So police have to go and rule out the possibility that maybe Bill worked with animals at the university.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2579.568

So I got confused. It wouldn't make sense. So he was actually a professor in the anatomy and cellular biology department. The artwork that he had hired her to do was like, or allegedly do, was for scientific illustrations. It's not like in the art department. Got it.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2595.163

And he was someone at the university who brought in like hundreds of thousands of dollars in grants for his lab, which made him a top fundraiser in his department. And like to give you an idea, most of his colleagues only worked on like one or two projects at a time. Bill worked on eight, including humane alternatives to animal testing.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2614.446

But the caveat here is that Landry learns none of Bill's experiments involved animal brains or even human brains for that matter. And ultimately, further testing does reveal that it is human brain matter. But Landry uses this opportunity to dig deeper into Tufts' investigation of Bill. And once again, it's not flattering.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2638.377

He learns that the colleagues and students who reported to him in the lab call him the man because he didn't like to be contradicted or questioned. He took out his anger on subordinates, so they were always on edge around him. And that's probably why Bill was able to hide his, like, expenses or his embezzling for so long.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2661.351

Like, when someone from accounting came knocking, they would, like, leave with their tail between their legs.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2666.414

But eventually it was discovered. Tufts suspended him back in January, but Bill refused to sign anything where he admitted to any wrongdoing, which is why he was able to interview for a new professorship in upstate New York. So police check in with those university officials and learn that Bill visited from February 13th to February 18th to lecture after being offered a tenure-track position.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2690.157

Now, Robin actually went with him on that trip, and he introduced her as a grad student checking out the school. But later, when they saw her face in the papers and realized that Bill was being investigated for her disappearance, they rescinded the offer. Now, this is when there is a big shakeup.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2708.377

So Trooper Landry has clearly gotten this far, but it seems like maybe he's been a little sloppy on the back end. Because in a case that clearly needs to be super buttoned up to go to court, turns out the dude hasn't done his paperwork. Like, he's been also super possessive of the case, and he had an upcoming retirement plan before Robin's case fell into his lap.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2729.838

And though he was super invested in her case, he does end up retiring as planned only weeks after Robin's disappearance. So like there's this big changeover and the case ends up going to someone else.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2742.408

Yeah. And this person's top priority is finding Robin's body. Like number one priority. So police and private searchers hired by Robin's family search a lot of land that Bill's family owns, including ponds and wooded areas close to their house, even the Boston Harbor. But Robin is nowhere.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

275.695

If there even is a victim, like 40 miles feels kind of far for him. But he looks into the report anyways. And what he finds is that a week before all of this, a guy named J.R. reported his 21-year-old girlfriend, Robin Benedict, missing after she didn't return from visiting someone she knew in Sharon, Massachusetts.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2765.628

Her family even wonders if Bill might have incinerated her body somewhere at Tufts, but they decide that Bill wasn't actually fit enough to carry a body for such a long distance, or certainly not without being noticed.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2784.785

So, they're thinking that maybe that person is Nancy. And that's because they also learned Nancy was on the phone with Bill a lot on March 4th. And she was actually the one who stopped that $200 check to rob him.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2808.242

Right. So to police, this proves that she is lying through her teeth about that and probably everything else. And what's interesting is that Bill and Nancy's phone calls didn't stop after Robin's visit to their house. So they can see that Bill made six calls between the evening of March 5th and the morning of March 6th. So... We've got a call at 10.07 p.m.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2830.052

That is to Robin's answering service, a.k.a. fake Joe message. I'm having a party. Then at 11.42, he makes a call to the answering service where he pretends to be Robin saying, I'm going to the party. Then the next two calls are made just before midnight. They are to Bill's house, likely to Nancy, from a payphone right across the highway from the rest stop where everything was found.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2855.825

Where are they getting these records from? His credit card. He used his credit card to pay for the calls. What? I know. Now, the next call to his house is at 2.12 a.m. from Boston.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2866.553

Now, because Boston is in the opposite direction from where Bill dumped the trash bag, police think that Bill was trying to frame the client at first that Robin had just met up with before she was at Bill's house by parking her car near his high-rise. Hmm. But then they think something happened. The plan changed because at 5.29 a.m.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2885.734

and then 6.51 a.m., he made more calls to his house from Rhode Island. And then at 1 p.m., he calls Robin's answering machine again. And this is on her records. And it's a call about meeting someone named John. But, like, again, this is totally fake. Mm-hmm. And then they know that he bought an Amtrak ticket from New York to D.C. at around 8 p.m., and he made one last call home at 9.17 p.m.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2912.877

from Connecticut. And then police do end up getting Amtrak's records, and they confirm that he got on the train to D.C. at 3.33 a.m.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2925.084

The P.I.s, yeah. Now, his credit card records also show that since Robin disappeared, Bill made a few calls from Rhode Island, which make police think that maybe that's where Robin's body is. And they think that maybe he's going to go back to visit or has or whatever. Like he's got no other reason to be there as far as they know. Yeah.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

295.401

Now, it turns out Sharon, Massachusetts, is only about five minutes away from the rest stop. And Robin was wearing a tan jacket when she was last seen. So he looks Robin up and he learns that she is a sex worker in Boston. And J.R. might be her boyfriend, but he might be more than that. Like J.R. 's official criminal history includes unarmed robbery and receiving stolen credit cards.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2950.174

They have some theories like he made the calls he made or at least some of them were from a shopping mall in Warwick, Rhode Island. And they know that he actually studied at Brown and the woods near Warwick or the area around campus in Providence would probably be familiar enough areas for him to go and bury a body. We know that people tend to go to places they know. Familiar places. Yeah.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2970.74

So police are pretty sure that they're going to find Robin's body within a day. I mean, they're confident. But when they check the mall, no one there can confirm that they recognize Bill. And, like, they actually end up getting nothing. And as if all of this isn't hard enough for Robin's family, close to Easter, her parents get this weird telegram. Supposedly, it's from Robin.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

2993.61

Now, Robin, feel my air quotes, says she's in Vegas. Don't look for her. Don't tell JR where I am.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3006.196

And immediately, her parents know this is fake. It's not from her because they know that Robin always signs her notes to them with her nickname, which is Bin Bin. And this one wasn't signed that way.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3026.848

Honestly, I don't even know if they ever questioned him about it. Or it might be something they keep in their back pocket. But I know right now Bill's life is unraveling. So he finally resigns from Tufts. He is charged with larceny. The media is now widely reporting his involvement in Robbins' disappearance. So everyone knows who this guy is. Mm-hmm.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3046.977

But Bill is acting like everything's fine, like nothing on fire around him. He even is back at the combat zone trying to hire sex workers. And this goes on until July when police finally catch a break. On July 16th, officers in New York City notice a car that is covered in dust parked in a tow-away zone. The plates are missing. Everything has been scratched off.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3072.589

Except for the VIN, which is like, by the way, if you're going to scratch something off, that's the one thing you're supposed to scratch off. So they run it. They find out that the car has been reported stolen and it belongs to a missing woman. And when they open the car up, they are hit with the smell that you cannot mistake. Immediately, they get decomposed.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3093.971

Now, there's no body inside, but there is lots of blood. And when they look closer, they find more of that gray tissue that they found in Bill's windbreaker. Brain matter. Now, this isn't Robin's body, right? But man, it is close.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3115.623

Someone's blood is all over this car. Someone's brain matter. They just have to prove it's Robin's. So they look to a new type of genetic testing used in a nobody case in Oklahoma. They want to prove that this blood in the car belongs to their victim. Now, the state crime lab can't do this yet. We're obviously talking about DNA.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3135.479

So they send the blood samples that they've collected along with samples from Robin's family to the FBI, who confirm that the blood type is type A and shares traits with samples that police got from the Benedict family. And they definitely rule out that the blood belonged to Bill, so not his.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3154.417

Now, the media had already latched onto this story, but once a grand jury is called to decide whether Bill will be indicted, it becomes a full-on frenzy. And that frenzy plays in Bill's favor because it gets the attention of a high-profile defense attorney who is great at manipulating the press.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3176.503

He gets someone to print a quote from him in black and white calling Robin a, quote, "'blackmailing whore.'" But still. Yeah. But even with all the drama, the grand jury still indicts Bill for first-degree murder. His trial is set for April of 1984. But even when they go to trial, there are still so many unanswered questions.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

320.023

But he also co-owns a hair salon that's rumored to be a meeting place for traffickers. Hmm. And it turns out J.R. 's not the only one who reported Robin missing. In fact, he wasn't even the first person. J.R. 's ex, who is also the mother of his son, she actually reported her missing the day that the trash bag was found because Robin never made it to her son's birthday party.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3220.407

Like, even though the grand jury declined to indict her, was Nancy involved? Like, what did Bill's kids see? Note, none of the questions seem to be about Bill's guilt. It's like the details of it. Yeah, which like I feel he senses because on the first day of his trial, Bill says that he wants to change his plea to guilty, but of manslaughter.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3243.378

It seems like a little backroom wheeling and dealing was done because the prosecution actually okays this. What about Robin's family? Are they okay with it? So here's the deal. Without Robin's body, prosecutors level with them and they're like... Listen, like the best conviction we can hope for even is second degree murder. The maximum sentence for that is only two years longer than manslaughter.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3274.227

Question mark whether you get that. And even if you get that, at no point would Bill be obligated to tell them where Robin's body was. But if we make this deal with him, part of what they incorporated into this deal was like, OK, if we give you manslaughter and you plead guilty, you have to take us to her body. So that's what he agreed to.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3292.778

That's what her family agreed to because they just want to bring Robin home. So after the announcement of Bill's guilty plea, the courtroom erupts in cheers that lasts literally so long the judge has to call for a silence. And then the prosecution spends about 45 minutes laying out their case against Bill.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3311.337

And after quickly apologizing to the judge, apologizing to Robin's family and his own family, Bill is taken away to go make his confession. Now, Bill starts from the trip to upstate New York in February, and he proceeds to tell what I believe to be an absolutely bogus story.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3336.05

What you need to know is that trip to New York, the one where Bill interviewed for that professorship, he claims that Robin was trying to get him to give her $5,000 for going on that trip with him. The briefcase story where he said she stole it, whatever, he says that's a lie, but she kept threatening him for this $5,000.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3355.282

And he was afraid that, like, she or someone she knew was going to hurt him somehow. Like, I don't know, but this goes on until finally he gets to the night of March 5th. He claims that night Robin showed up at his house with the sledgehammer, which, yes, was his, by the way, but he had like let her borrow it. I know what you're going to say. He let her borrow it for some work on her house.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3376.5

And he says she shows up with it hidden under her jacket, like the jacket's like thrown over her arm. They go up to the bedroom, unaware of this concealed sledgehammer, and he offered her, like, whatever money he had, but it wasn't the full $5,000. So he says Robin attacked him with the sledgehammer. He says she hit him several times, which police, to be clear, do not think she could have done.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3402.698

Like, at her height and weight, which they know to be small in both categories, it would have been hard for her to land any blows on Bill. But Bill says one of those strikes led to the head wound that he had lied so many times about. Of course. But by the way, like to police, that wound looked more like a cut than like the wound a sledgehammer would leave by someone attacking you.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3424.869

But anyways, Bill claims he wrestles this sledgehammer away from Robin. They struggled somehow on his bed. No surprise, because he's full of it. He says he can't pin down exactly everything that happened. But she fought back. She bit his leg. So Bill had no choice but to hit her on the head with a sledgehammer, quote, two or three times.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

343.851

And so then it was two days after she had reported her missing that J.R. went and reported her too. And then three days after that, her parents reported her missing. Now, there's already a search underway because the day before he reported Robin missing to police, J.R. hired private investigators to track her down.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3454.833

I don't know if that's the case, actually. So I know that there's blood all over the car. There's maybe mention of that brain matter. But nobody ever says that is actually where the attack happens. It's certainly not in Bill's story. I mean, there is... The one thing I'll say is there's a possibility that it happened in the house.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3473.13

And the only reason they never found blood there could be because, and to me this is wild, police never tested the bed itself. Because Bill, when they were like searching the house, was like taking a nap on it. So they just left the bed alone. The bed? I know.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3492.944

I know. Or where he says he killed her. But that never got tested, so we don't know.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3504.833

He says he only did all of that because he was teasing Robin. And he said he did that because she kept him waiting for hours before she finally showed up. And so he's like, you know, if she's going to waste my time, I'm going to waste her time. Just convenient timing to tease her.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3518.6

He said after he killed Robin, he was terrified because his wife and kids were going to walk through the door any minute. So he cleans up the crime scene as best he could, wrapped her body in his comforter and dragged her to her car before putting her body in the trunk and driving away.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3536.107

Then he made that call home to Nancy, who he claims he didn't tell anything to, before dumping the trash bag at the rest stop and then calling Nancy again.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3547.057

He only told her that he had a problem. So he ends up pulling into a Rhode Island shopping center near where he and his family lived while he was studying at Brown. So again, still familiar with this area. He said he backed up to a dumpster and threw what he called the material inside the dumpster. The material is that her body? It's her body. The material. Oh.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3568.883

And then Bill says something that makes everyone's skin crawl. He says that when police find Robin's body, she'll be wearing her clothes and that there was no, quote, monkey business. So after leaving her body in the dumpster and dumping more evidence in other ones around Rhode Island, he says he got rid of her car and he only admitted to Nancy what he'd done when he got back to Massachusetts.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3597.266

Now, the whole confession, this thing takes like four hours to get through. But it feels like a waste of four hours because no one thinks he's telling the truth. I mean, same. Yeah, and guess what is not there when they go looking? They can't find the dumpster at the location that Bill described.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3620.593

No. So after this, like when they go back to him and they're like, part of the deal was and it's not matching up. He's like, oh, you know what? Like, let me be hypnotized to try and remember exactly like where it was and what it looked like. And this hypnosis seems to be conducted by his defense team, which I don't understand. Yeah.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3639.022

But when he goes under and he's at his point of being at the dumpster, the hypnotist asks him if he sees any letters or numbers. And first he says this like series of numbers and then he whispers, it's not me by the dumpster. It's not me by the dumpster.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

365.146

Yeah, I assume he did that because police aren't, like, super fond of him. And as Robin's suspected trafficker slash boyfriend, like, he would be a prime suspect. Right. And also, like, I'm sure he doesn't want them, like, poking around into whatever he has going on. But anyways, Trooper Landry decides to start with these PIs.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3658.218

What does that even mean? Is it, I don't know, because he says it three times whispering like that. Is it, is it that he, he's got like a, I mean, how many times have you had killers be like something took over? It was this dark press. Is it not him? Is, is there someone else there?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3682.854

I don't know. Nobody seems to ask him. Like, there's no follow up then or after, which kind of leaves this frustrating loose end to never be tied up. Or to your point, everyone's just like, doesn't believe it to begin with. Yeah. But the session does lead police to a dumpster with a serial number similar to the one Bill gave them.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3703.029

Now, this dumpster supposedly empties into a massive Rhode Island landfill. So by now, if Robin's body had been taken there, it is probably buried under tons of trash. And a search of the landfill would cost the state something like $150,000. Again, 80s money at the time.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3722.026

So they end up choosing not to approve it, assuming whatever is left of Robin would be too hard to identify anyway, if that's what happened. Bill's story is actually true. Yeah. Privately, some members of law enforcement aren't even sure that he's telling the truth about the dumpster at all. I mean, like, what has he been honest about so far? Why would he about this?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3743.48

And what I think about is someone who is like this obsessed with possessing her. Like, how can they be sure he didn't bury Robin somewhere that he could visit? Like, holding on to this last bit of power over her. Possessing her through the end. Yeah. Yeah. So ultimately, he's given the maximum sentence of 18 to 20 years, but he could get paroled as early as 12.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3769.112

He stood a good chance of getting paroled because even after the trial, the media took his side. They republish his version of events. I mean, they interview Nancy about the cutting edge work that her husband had done to save premature babies. So they're like making him out to be this hero. And then it is like sickening the way that they tried to destroy Robin.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3795.156

Like, I don't know why we're all intent on hating women so much. This man was a monster. And there was a moment in journalist Linda Wolfe's book where she's talking about how Robin's parents say how much she meant to them and how nothing could make them love her less. And Linda actually questions whether that could be true after what they heard during trial.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3826.122

As a mother.

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MURDERED: Robin Benedict

383.077

He asks them to come down to the station to talk about what it is they know, what have they found out. And they tell him that they've done a lot of work on the case so far. And in particular, they spent a lot of time looking into this one specific guy that J.R. believed took Robin, this client who in recent months had become obsessed with her. Now, this man J.R.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3842.788

I'm telling you, the way that people write about this, it's like I go back to that, like, moment where in the interview room where, like, Bill, you know, she broke his heart, man. And he's this, like, he's this great guy.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3860.756

But this is the example of how Robin's story somehow has kept getting twisted in her killer's favor. Yeah. Her family, I mean, would go on to get harassing phone calls where people would call Robin these horrible names. And when they petitioned the court for Robin's case file to use in civil suits, they got denied for no clear reason.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3883.389

And in Don Stradley's book, Boston Tabloid, there is speculation that denial may have been because of racism. Like I said, Robin was Hispanic and most of her family and friends weren't white. And it seems like almost everyone judged them by what they had heard about the case.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3900.161

And eventually Robin's family gets tired of having to constantly prove that their daughter was the victim in this case and not Bill, which is exhausting.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3915.905

He plays the model prisoner. Nancy visits him three times a week, once a week with the kids. But from what I read in the Boston tabloid, his good streak ends in 1987. So he gets caught engaging in a sexual act with a visitor, not his wife, in case you had any doubts about that. Shocker. Mm-hmm. Eventually, he and Nancy do divorce. He marries this other woman while still in prison.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3940.48

Oh, and he tries to write a book about what he did to make some extra cash. And then he gets released on June 3rd, 1993, after less than nine years. When he does get released, Robin's mom asked to meet with him, like hoping that he would finally tell the truth about what he did to her daughter. Like now that you can't you can't be tried for anything else. Like it's over. But he stuck to his story.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3967.523

No. So Bill died in 2015 at an assisted living facility.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3977.81

Or even the kids? No, so it was one of the questions that I asked Richard. So he remembers that it got too hard for his mom to, like, keep rehashing Robin's death. Mm-hmm. Especially knowing that every time she, she would just get hate. Like, it's not even like she had support to do this. Or even, it's not even like she didn't, like, didn't have the support and was just doing it on her own.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

3998.942

She had, like, the opposition of it.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

4013.232

And if she tried to do anything, she's like, everyone took Bill's side. And at some point, you're like, I'm, like, I'm living in an alternate universe. And, like, why even try? Like, it doesn't make sense.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

4027.242

I mean, I think Bill was counting on no one caring about Robin to look into her death when this all started. And if they did, he was counting on the fact that no one would believe her loved ones over him. And it helped him that at the time, Massachusetts didn't have any laws against stalking. I mean, I think it's clear now that Bill was a textbook stalker.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

403.782

was suspicious of is a 41-year-old Tufts Medical School professor named Dr. Bill Douglas. And his condensed version of, like, his history with Robin goes like this. Robin met Bill at a combat zone bar sometime in the spring of 1982, so almost exactly a year ago. When I say the combat bar, like the combat zone is this area in Boston known for sex work, maybe other illegal activity.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

4049.337

He was using technology to monitor Robin's movements, money to control her. And as stalking can often do, it escalated into brutal violence. Robin is still missing. Her body has never been found. And her story has mostly been told through her killer, erasing who she was in life. When we talked to Richard, he shared memories with us of her.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

4074.254

He remembers her as this artistic little girl who signed her name with like a tiny little bumblebee. She loved music and she played the flute so well. Like you couldn't tell if she was practicing or the song was being played on the radio. She grew into a brave young woman who jumped unafraid into the water for midnight swims. Robin was someone who had her whole life ahead of her.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

4097.047

She had big dreams for her future like owning her own business and having her artwork shown in a major gallery. The last time that Richard saw Robin was just a few days before she disappeared. She stayed with her parents for two days to spend some quality time with him while he was on leave from the Navy. He says they shopped, they hung out, they laughed, they talked.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

4117.054

But before he left, Robin gave him this photo to take back to the ship with him. And he didn't think much of it at the time. He just like hung it up in his locker. But after she went missing, he took that photo out and turned it over, and he saw something that he had never seen before.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

4131.84

On the back of the photo, Robin had written, For Richard, Robin was the family peacemaker, the one who always advocated for her siblings with their parents and knew exactly how to smooth over any conflict. And in many ways, her death tore his family apart, but he said it also kept them close. And all of them are still looking for her.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

4156.753

Like some investigators, Richard believes that Bill did not tell the truth about where he put Robyn's body. We know that the night of March 5th, 1983, he drove Robyn's silver Toyota Starlet with a black racing stripe through New England, from Massachusetts to Rhode Island to Connecticut and New York.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

4175.382

And even though Robin's case is closed, if you have any information about Bill's movements or where Robin would be, her family would be forever grateful. While they declined to comment for this episode, it has always been believed that maybe Bill's kids saw or knew something.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

4192.947

But they were minors at the time, so forcing them to testify against their dad wasn't something the prosecution wanted to do. But they would be adults now, maybe with kids of their own. Maybe they have no idea that something they know could bring a small amount of healing to a family who's been hurting for a very long time.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

4210.859

Maybe there are people out there who saw Bill that night or know the location of Robin's body. If so, you can reach out to the Massachusetts State Police with tips. We will have a link to their office in the show notes.

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MURDERED: Robin Benedict

4273.516

You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

4282.349

We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

429.021

So he meets her at a bar in this area and he becomes a regular client of hers. Eventually, though, he started paying Robin for more and more of her time so that she wouldn't have to work in the combat zone as much. He started changing his work schedule around just to take her to plays and movies and concerts. And pretty soon, Robin was spending at least two hours a night with Bill.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

451.941

But it never seemed like enough. And at some point, Bill's obsession with Robin grew until he was sending her cards and letters almost every day and calling her incessantly if she didn't have time to meet him. He even bought her an answering machine for her birthday so that she would always get his messages. And... He put her on the payroll at Tufts as a research assistant.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

475.157

So, I mean, he was like really like trying to bring her. He was trying to be her whole life. And soon Robin would regularly spot Bill like parked outside of her apartment watching her comings and goings. And it's strange because police started showing up right as she would bring clients back as if someone was watching her place and wanting her to get caught. Mm-hmm. And all of that made J.R.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

501.282

rethink something that had happened like even before this. So one day back in November, as Robin and Bill were leaving her apartment, police showed up at exactly that moment as they were leaving. But Bill chimed in that there was nothing untoward going on here. Like she works for me. You have this all wrong. And he like saved the day. And so that is when all the police visits first started.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

528.793

So J.R. was thinking that Bill called the police on himself. So that way when he called later. Oh, and like he could be the hero of the situation. Yeah. And then maybe she wouldn't suspect when all of a sudden like the like she's getting caught with all of these clients later.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

543.977

J.R. also suspected that Bill would listen to the messages on Robin's answering machine. He even thought Bill stole Robin's answering machine from her apartment not once but twice in an attempt to keep her from meeting other men.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

563.078

So if you would have asked me a week ago, I would have said I couldn't tell you. But literally right before finalizing this script, we were able to get in touch with Robin's brother, Richard. And he told us that, yes, she at least thought Bill was listening to her calls somehow. I mean, it's probably what pushed her to use an answering service instead of her regular machine to begin with.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

584.342

And interestingly, she wouldn't give Bill the number for the answering service. Which, according to her brother Richard, just seemed to make Bill even, like, more crazy. He started stealing her mail. He started calling her family members. It escalated. Yeah, like, if he couldn't get in touch with her, he, like, had to have tabs on her at all times.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

602.945

And that seemed like it marked the beginning of the end of things between them. Robin started actively trying to break things off. And on March 2nd, we're back now in 1983, March 2nd, She even calls Bill's house and told his wife, Nancy, that she didn't want to see him anymore.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

627.324

So, I don't know. Like, in that moment when Robin called her, all we know is that Nancy said, Okay. Nothing else. Which makes me think that it wasn't a total surprise. Also, like, how do you spend two hours every night with someone and your wife, like, doesn't know something was up? But what's so interesting is guess where Nancy and Bill live. Sharon, Massachusetts.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

651.53

In fact, Trooper Landry learns that according to J.R., that is actually where Robin was going the night of March 5th. She wanted to make it clear to Bill that she didn't want to see him again and she wanted to do it face to face.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

671.286

Maybe.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

674.747

I don't know. So I can see a world where she thought she could handle it herself. Like, she's known this guy for about a year at this point. And to me, it almost seems separate from J.R.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

692.116

And stuff. And I think there's just like when you know someone that long and like you do have like very like comfortable, intimate, even if it like escalates at some point, I think there's this false sense of comfort that people can be lulled into. Like, you know, when someone wasn't always bad, like someone who says they care about you.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

709.906

And I'm sure we all remember how invincible we felt at her age. Like you don't think anything bad can happen to you. I mean, even her brother said that she didn't seem to be worried about Bill. Like, even though he didn't know the full extent of their relationship until after Robin went missing, all he knew was that she was going to break things off with this professor that she was working with.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

729.415

Like, she said that this is what she was telling him, that the professor was getting way too attached, whatever. But he said that his sister just seemed annoyed. She didn't seem scared. But according to JR, she goes over there to break things off that night, and then she just never comes home. Now, J.R. didn't jump straight to, oh, my God, she's been murdered when she didn't come home.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

750.835

I guess Bill had recently been trying to convince Robin to go on a trip to the Virgin Islands with him before she disappeared. So at first he thought, not even that she went willingly, but like maybe Bill abducted her or like whatever, hence hiring the P.I.s. But they quickly found that Bill definitely wasn't in the Virgin Islands.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

767.841

Because a couple of days after Robin disappeared, the PIs found him at a hotel in D.C. where he was staying for a conference. And the second they saw him, they spotted something very suspicious. So right away, the PIs notice a bandage over Bill's forehead, which throws up some red flags. And they're like, how'd you get that, Billy?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

78.934

Around 9 a.m., he meets up with his friend and they go to this rest stop to rummage through some trash barrels. They split up. Joseph takes the left side of the lot. His friend takes the right. And when Joseph reaches inside the first barrel, he pulls out this heavy brown plastic garbage bag. And he's excited because a heavy bag means lots of bottles. Lots of bottles means a big payday.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

793.139

And he's like, oh, I just hit my head on this cabinet door, which is obviously not what happened because this is like a large bandage, like most likely larger than you would need if you just got a little whack with a cabinet. But Bill was super cooperative. He lets them in, lets them search the room. And Bill's story was that, yes, Robin had come over on the 5th.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

814.699

He saw her briefly just before 11 p.m., but she left around midnight, and she said that she was going to go meet some guy named Joe. Oh, and he said, by the way, his wife and kids weren't home, so no one could confirm that. Cool. So they talk to him. The PIs eventually leave. But there's, like, something about his answers that aren't sitting right with them.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

833.963

So later that same night, they go back to ask Bill again, like, why? How is it you got that injury to your head? And this time he gives a completely different story. Wait, on the same night? On the same night. So this time he says that he was mugged at an Amtrak station and that the robbers hit him in the head with his briefcase.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

853.665

And oh, by the way, his wife actually was home the night that Robin came over. So she could corroborate his alibi that she left safe and sound.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

868.618

I know. Did you have time to, like, call and confirm that?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

880.924

Turns out stories change. Yeah. So this is all super sus for sure. But they didn't find anything then that really helped them locate Robin, which is still like priority number one. But Bill did something strange when he got back home from D.C. He called Robin's dad and said that he had a message for him from Robin.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

903.261

He says Robin told him that if anything ever happened to her, to tell her family not to let J.R. keep her jewelry and furs.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

917.686

Yes, but same as her brother. Like, they didn't have the full context. I don't think they had the full context of what Robin's life was like anymore. I think she tried to shield them from that reality. Like, only a few years before all of this, she'd been a model student and a President Merit Scholar who never missed a day of class. And when she graduated, she worked in graphic design for a minute.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

938.234

But somewhere along the way, she got pulled into sex work. And I don't know if her parents knew every detail of what she was doing for a living. Now, they did eventually learn that she was a sex worker after police had called them down to the station a few times when she was arrested for sex work. So this is before she goes missing.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

955.21

But they had kept that from their other kids until after she goes missing, which is why her brother doesn't know. And he was so shocked when he finally found out. So her parents, like, knew she was struggling, but this is where Bill comes in. So they actually meet him at one of those times when Robin got arrested.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

972.367

She and Bill were saying, oh, this is all a mistake, and Bill's her boss at the university. And they were saying that he was there to, like, clear everything up, and, like, they wanted to believe it. So at first, they knew Bill in that context, like, as her boss, right? Though he did even, as her boss, like rub them the wrong way.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Robin Benedict

991.444

Like he seemed to have a crush on Robin that went way further than the usual professor-assistant relationship. And he told them to let him know if anyone ever messed with them or Robin because he had access to chemicals that could dissolve a body. Yeah. Who goes straight to dissolving a body? If someone bothers you or messes with you, this guy. I know.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

0.609

Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And the story I have for you today is one that shouldn't even be a story that we're telling all these years later because the murder of a young soldier home on leave was potentially witnessed by a hundred or so people. So this should be solved, put away. The problem is no one is willing to tell police what happened.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1012.059

Now, meanwhile, two men were walking in the opposite direction. And when their paths intersected, one of them called out to Solomon, telling him, come here. Solomon stepped back and Frank then heard gunshots. And then a second man cut Solomon with a knife while the shooter just like stood by watching. And then after that, both of the attackers left on foot.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1036.164

And listen, this is better than just Frank telling them what happened. He is able to tell them who did it. a pair of cousins who were going to call John and William. Now, there's some confusion over who was the shooter, who was the stabber.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

104.524

But this particular area of the park is pretty well lit, and responders are able to find the victim easily. It's a young man laying face down on the grass near a pathway that runs past some basketball courts. Blood is soaking through his black and yellow striped jacket and when EMTs turn him over, they realize that there is nothing they can do.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1051.639

Police reports refer to William by a specific nickname, but the nickname that they used was actually John's nickname, so it's not clear who allegedly did what during this attack. Now, of course, Frank isn't a perfect witness by any means. Like, not only is he in jail, but some of his information is, like, iffy, right? Like, he claims he heard four shots. We only know Solomon was shot once.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1080.795

Well, no. So actually, I'm pretty sure the call that got called in was for shots fired. But I also know that's a general like dispatch code that they use. So it's like not a description necessarily of what happened. And I don't know the words that the caller used. I haven't actually heard the call. So all of that TBD. There's another issue.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1098.538

Even though we got a lot of, like, maybe this, maybe that statements from people early on in the attack, like, pretty much every witness account did say that the men who killed Solomon were Hispanic. William and John are not Hispanic. They're Black.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1118.236

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With big crowds, stuff for sure. I mean, there were a ton of people running around that night after the attack. I mean, it's possible that someone was seeing Hispanic men like running off and like... Maybe that's what added to the mix up. But like, it doesn't matter to Frank. Frank's like, listen, I saw it and I know the guys like there is no confusion here.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1137.994

And by the way, if you don't trust me, good news. I wasn't alone. He says there's another witness who can back him up. Frank says this other person saw the murder with him. And this was a 15-year-old girl that Will called Brenda. Now, Brenda actually lives in the building that Frank was at when the murder took place.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1159.721

And according to Frank, they witnessed it together while they were smoking on Brenda's fire escape or like roof or something. So as soon as they're done talking to Frank, police go right to Brenda's apartment to speak with her and they get a little creative with their approach. They don't tell her that Frank gave them her name.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1176.953

They actually tell her they know she saw Solomon get killed because they have surveillance video of her on the fire escape. Now, the bluff works and her account is very similar to Frank's. She tells investigators that her mom doesn't know she smokes cigarettes, so she was sneaking one on their fire escape, which gave her a clear view of the park. She says she saw Solomon walking with two girls.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1201.786

And at the same time, she saw John and William. They're like leaving the handball courts, which are like right next to the basketball courts. Their paths cross and somehow the situation escalated quickly, like into murder.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1220.194

She tells detectives that she and Frank were in the park earlier that day smoking weed. But I don't know if she says anything about like them being on the fire escape together when Solomon was killed. Like it's not clear from her written statement.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1239.78

So there's no description in the report of her statement. So I can't say for sure. But I mean, I know police were highly suspicious that one of them was Gail. Right. But real quick, let me tell you more about John and William, because as investigators dig into their backgrounds, they realize that they have a lot of reasons to be suspicious of these two, more than just these statements.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

125.605

They see that in addition to the gunshot wound on the left side of his chest, he has also been stabbed multiple times and his face and neck are slashed too. The victim is declared dead at 9.50 and police secure the scene and start gathering evidence. They collect dozens of bottles and cans, remnants of the party that had been going on.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1260.828

Now, they can't find any indication that either of them knew Solomon, although there's certainly a chance of that because John lived practically across the street from him. But both men have criminal records dating back to the early 90s, including drug charges. And more importantly, both men have rumored ties.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1277.438

to the Nine Trey Gangsters, which is a set of the United Blood Nation, which is basically like an East Coast version of the Bloods. Trying to get as mainstream as I can. And this is separate from the original gang on the West Coast. Got it. So this really catches law enforcement's attention because getting initiated into a West Coast blood set typically involves targeting a rival gang.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1301.765

But the United Blood Nation, including its subset, Nine Trade Gangsters, were known for going after non-gang members. And their preferred method of attack was a buck fifty, that like facial slash that we know Solomon had.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1323.993

Well, investigators believe that it might not have been about joining, but maybe about moving up the ranks. Oh. And I had to get like a whole crash course on this from the detectives. But basically, gang hierarchies can be complex. And sometimes members have to prove themselves to gain more status or more responsibility within the organization.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1343.042

And this kind of attack, this is exactly the signature that these guys were known for. Obviously, this is all promising. But there is a big risk. Problem. Brenda refuses to cooperate further. Like, she just completely shuts down. I mean, she's probably scared. Probably terrified. I mean, I would be too. But with their key witness unwilling to move forward, the investigation is at a standstill.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1369.414

And just like that, the momentum that they had built up just disappears. And the case goes cold for years.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1381.038

I think it comes down to credibility issues. Like Brenda's not in jail, right? Like she doesn't have any charges looming. With the two of them together, there could be a strong narrative to build. But like if you just have Frank.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1395.79

They don't feel like they can move forward. So they let some time go by. During which Frank gets out of jail, doesn't exactly stay out of trouble. A probation violation gets an arrest warrant put out on him. So he's like MIA trying to fly under the radar when detectives on Solomon's case decide like, hey, we should stir this up again. They go looking for him in 2005. Again, they don't find him.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1417.755

But on May 25th, 2006, police finally arrest him. And less than two weeks later, the Homicide Task Force gets an unexpected call from Rikers Island. It's Frank, and he is ready to cooperate on Solomon's case, even if he doesn't get anything in return.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1434.684

And he says he's only been dodging them because he thought that they were just trying to, like, trick him into getting arrested on the warrant he had. Like, that's why he was dodging the homicide guys. But now that he's locked up anyway, like, he's like, might as well talk. Now, his story's the same, but this time he confirms what was only suspected before.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1451.797

According to Frank, John and William were both Bloods members. And he says that they sold crack in the neighborhood. But they still have the same problems they had years ago, like Frank's in jail. It doesn't feel super credible to put him out on his own. And though they track Brenda down and her story is the same, she is still too afraid to talk. She even thinks that someone might be watching her.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

146.975

And they also recover a black Nike skull cap and a wristwatch near the young man's body. What they don't find is a weapon or any shell casings left behind from the gun that was used or any identification for their victim. I mean, if he had a wallet on him, that's gone. But if robbery was the motive, his killer left behind an expensive starter jacket that the victim was still wearing.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1473.561

Like, bottom line is, she's not going to work with them. So without Brenda... They got nothing that's going to stand up through a full trial. And with no one else coming forward, nothing happens again on this case for years. And as you can imagine, I mean, NYPD has new cases coming in every single day.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1501.767

They're like they're one of the busiest precincts. Yeah. The more and more that come in, the deeper and deeper Solomon's case file falls to some old cabinet or drawer filled with other old files on other old cases. But in 2022, Detective Klein, who's with the Bronx Homicide Squad, stumbles across Solomon's case while going through some of those old files.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1523.67

And it catches his eye right away because Klein spent seven years in the army and he and Solomon were actually in boot camp at the same time, although they never actually met. And he can't stand the thought of a fellow soldier's murder going unsolved. And as he flips through the file, he sees potential. The witnesses who ID'd the killers are still alive, as are the potential killers themselves.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1549.672

And when he reaches out to a retired investigator who worked the case, that guy tells him he thinks it's solvable, too. Klein thinks if he can track down Frank again and somehow convince Brenda to finally cooperate, they might have enough to finally charge these guys. Maybe whatever fear was keeping people silent back then has faded away.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1569.907

Maybe now they can even develop some new witnesses who were too scared to come forward before. And Detective Klein knows exactly where he wants to start. Not with Brenda, not with Frank, but with Gail. All these years later, when Klein interviews her at her job in September of 2022, she sticks to the part of her story that basically has her not with Solomon when he's being killed.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1595.052

But this time around, she admits that they were romantically involved. Like she told police the very first time.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1602.016

Yes. And unfortunately, she can't or won't explain any of the contradictory statements that she's made in the past. Her story is she wasn't with him. She knows nothing. So sorry. The end.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1622.252

And nobody wants to help put them together. I know. It's like it's going to take so much work. And Klein keeps digging. He's willing to put in the work. He sees a way to break through the wall of silence. And he thinks the way to do that is with the help of the feds. The NYPD and the FBI have this joint task force that targets violent crimes and gang activity.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1647.523

They take cases that meet certain criteria, like potential gang involvement, and they look to charge them federally. The task force had already successfully closed some other cold cases, so it wasn't difficult to get them on board for Solomon's around 2023. And this opens up a whole lot of new doors because suddenly the stakes are way higher for everyone involved.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1667.913

Lying to federal agents is a separate crime all on its own. And with the weight of federal charges and mandatory minimums looming, not to mention a high conviction rate, witnesses tend to get a lot more fearful and as a result, a lot more cooperative. They can also use evidence that state prosecutors probably wouldn't touch, like certain hearsay statements or testimony from co-conspirators.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1695.117

So Klein is deputized as a federal agent, which gives him the same authority. And right away, he sees the difference when they go re-interview Frank. So they pull him into a car for questioning. And once Frank realizes that the FBI is involved, his whole narrative changes. He confesses that he didn't actually see Solomon get killed. What? Mm-hmm. Why on earth would he make that up?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

171.958

And NYP detective Robert Klein told our reporter Nina that this particular type of jacket was often the target of robberies in the 90s. So right off the bat, they're thinking this is something else.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1719.403

So he was hoping for a deal. You see, he says the real truth, what he's telling them now, is that just Brenda saw it. He and Brenda had spent the earlier part of the day together. He had sold her some weed. But by the time Solomon was killed, he, being frank, had already left. Brenda filled him in on what she saw that night. And when he got arrested on drug charges back in early 99.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1749.006

Right. So he passed the story off as his own.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1758.684

This is the bonkers part. Not that I can tell. Remember, they like told her because they wanted to get her.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1767.91

Right. So she like, they were like completely leaving out how they got her name in the first place. So they just came at her like, we know, you know, which ended up working. But like, I don't think anyone ever circled back and like brought up Frank again.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1781.679

But it sure comes up now when they interview her again, this time at FBI headquarters in Florida, where she had moved at some point. She tells them she was with Frank earlier that day, but she doesn't remember him being with her when Solomon was killed. And unlike Frank, she sticks to her account of what happened that night. She even IDs William as the shooter from a photo array.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1807.444

Although, again, she calls him by John's nickname, so no help clearing that up for me. But she's still not willing to cooperate further. So of the two key witnesses they had, one never actually saw anything. Isn't a witness. The other won't budge when it comes to working with police.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1828.477

No, and not because they don't want to. They just want to be strategic about it. They want to know exactly how they want to go in before they go in. Yeah, and they don't have enough probable cause to make an arrest. So I don't think they want to tip their hand. But Detective Klein has this idea, and it involves this other unsolved murder that he's been working.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

185.004

And I'm not sure how, but even without a wallet or a license on this person, police managed to identify the victim pretty quickly as 19-year-old Solomon Robinson, affectionately known as Solo or Junie to his parents, who police learn live in an apartment building just outside of the park.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1850.547

It's the murder of a young woman named Shawna Brown. You see, a couple of months after Solomon was killed, Shawna's body was found in the lobby of a project building just outside of St. Mary's Park. There was duct tape wrapped around her neck, and she was naked and, like, in the fetal position. Although, according to the New York Daily News, there was no sign of sexual assault.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1870.714

What is odd is that Shauna was from East Harlem and she had zero connection to the building that she was found in. Police theorized that she was killed somewhere else and then left there afterward. Now, long story short, there was this note in Solomon's file that Klein had come across basically suggesting that William had something to do with Shauna's murder.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1893.931

Now, Detective Klein doesn't believe that. He already has a strong suspect in mind for her case. But he sees this as an opportunity. Like, if he can get William talking about Shauna's case, like, as a potential witness, maybe he can steer the conversation toward Solomon. Like, it's a long shot, but, like, what else have they got at this point? Anything is worth trying.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1913.848

So when he goes to talk to him, William is talkative at first. He even identifies a suspect for them in Shauna's case. It's actually the same guy who is already the prime suspect for Klein. But then William goes further and says that same person, by the way, is responsible for other murders, including that guy that was killed in the park next to a bench, which seems like he's referring to Solomon.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1940

And Detective Klein can hardly believe it because nobody, and I mean nobody, had ever connected that particular suspect to Solomon's murder before. So to Klein, it seems like William is, like, deliberately trying to divert attention away from himself by throwing someone else's name out there.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1963.327

Yeah, and the thing, like... When I say no one like brought up him in the other case, no one actually brought up Solomon at all. Like when he's talking to William, it's not like he didn't even get to the part yet where he was going to like try and weasel in.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1975.854

Completely unprompted. So Detective Klein tries to persuade William to come in and like give an official statement. But even though he agrees to, he never actually does. And they like keep trying to reach him by phone to urge him to come in, but he ignores all of their calls. And when investigators go knocking on his door, things get strange.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

1998.507

William has this whole like surveillance system set up and he texts Klein a picture of Klein standing outside of William's door.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

2011.675

I know. All in all, his cooperation was short-lived. But police will not give up. They have been doing what they can to keep Solomon's story in the public eye. They've papered St. Mary's Park with posters about the case. They've been pushing for more media coverage.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

202.37

But word travels fast here, and by the time police make it to the front door of the apartment that Solomon grew up in, his mom, Edna, has already been told the awful news. Now, investigators know this isn't the safest area. In fact, according to the New York Daily News, it is one of the most violent police precincts in the city.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

2028.272

And recently, behind the scenes, they've begun to pursue new forensic testing, taking advantage of technological advances that weren't there when Solomon was originally killed.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

2040.863

All of these efforts are crucial because even though investigators are pretty confident that they have the right people in their crosshairs, like, you know, if the detectives theories are correct, both William and John could be charged with Solomon's murder. But there are still key details they need to piece together before they can even try to move ahead with any charges.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

2073.427

No, legally they share responsibility for what happened. So even though the bullet is what technically killed Solomon, the law considers even the stabber just as culpable since that person was there participating in the assault. Got it. If there's ever evidence that they planned it beforehand, they could be also facing conspiracy charges. This all applies at the federal level too.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

2095.188

And if gang activity was involved, racketeering charges might come into play. What it boils down to is that if investigators can show that these two acted together, they could both be held accountable for Solomon's murder, regardless of who did what. But of course, one of them could flip on the other.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

2114.314

And I have to imagine if it gets to that point, it'll be like a whoever talks first gets the better deal sort of thing. But Solomon's family has been waiting for answers for more than 27 years. And the uncertainty has taken its toll. I mean, just a year after he was killed, Solomon's parents packed up. They left New York for South Carolina, his mom Edna's home state.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

2138.452

They couldn't bear to stay in the area any longer. Like every street corner, every familiar place was just a reminder of their loss. Both of Solomon's parents have since passed away without ever seeing anyone held accountable for their son's death. And one of Solomon's brothers, Stephen, passed away too.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

2155.925

But his other brother, Russell, and his cousin Melody are still the ones out there fighting for justice today. And they miss Solomon, his fun-loving personality and his kind heart. They wish they could have seen what he would have made of himself because they are sure he would have gone really far. He had such big dreams and he wanted to continue his education.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

2175.978

He wanted to buy a house for his folks. But instead, his loved ones are left with just 19 years worth of memories and so many questions. Now, despite his dedication to Solomon's case, the detective who's been living and breathing it for the past few years won't be the one to see it through to the end. Klein actually retired right as we were finishing up our reporting on this story.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

220.606

But Solomon's murder doesn't match the circumstances that they so often encounter. He's not in a gang, he doesn't sell drugs, and he had never been in any trouble. Actually, he had worked hard to carve out a different life for himself. Like, he joined the army last year, the year before, in August of 97, right after graduating high school.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

2201.779

The investigation has transferred to one of Klein's partners, but he knows how important it is to Klein. So I don't think that he's going to be putting it on the back burner anytime soon. But saying that, like, what I also want to say is, like, police need help to solve this. Solomon Robinson served his country only to be betrayed by someone in his own community.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

2221.589

And there are people out there, probably a lot of people, who know something. Maybe you're one of them. Maybe you've been holding onto a piece of the puzzle all these years, thinking it doesn't matter or that coming forward now won't make a difference. But it very well might.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

2237.981

And the FBI is offering up to a $25,000 reward for information leading to the identity, arrest, and conviction of whoever is responsible for Solomon's murder. So if you know anything about what happened in St. Mary's Park in the Bronx on the night of Friday, April 3rd, 1998... please contact the NYPD Crime Stoppers at 1-800-577-TIPS.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

2262.783

You can also reach out to your local FBI office or submit a tip online completely anonymous. We'll have all of this information on our website and in the show notes. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

2294.494

We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

239.557

And Edna tells detectives that Solomon is a private stationed at Fort Benning in Georgia.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

247.501

No, no. He's just home on leave for the week. So he was actually scheduled to head back to his base in like a couple of days. It would have been Monday, April 6th when he went back. And this time coming home, this was his first trip home since Thanksgiving. And his parents had been so happy to see him, especially his dad, who had been dealing with some serious health issues.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

26.234

But maybe that changes today. This is the story of Solomon Robinson. It's Friday, April 3rd, 1998. And even though it's kind of chilly at night, there is a party going on in St. Mary's Park in the South Bronx, New York. There's a big crowd of people hanging out. Everyone's having a good time. When suddenly, just before 10 p.m., a gunshot rings out.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

265.087

I mean, he was having seizures and stuff like this. The rest of his family didn't. was so happy as well. I mean, one of his brothers, Russell, who lives in Connecticut, was actually planning to come visit him the very next day.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

275.633

But now, instead of coming to hang out with his little brother and, you know, do whatever it is they used to do when they were younger, like, he's coming home to support his family and to try and find out what happened. And it's so heartbreaking. He said that when his mom called to tell him the news, he couldn't even understand her at first.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

294.286

And he thought that she was trying to tell him that his father had died, right? Like he was the one having all the health issues. And it took him a minute to realize that she was talking about Solomon because it just seemed so incomprehensible. So Russell travels back to the Bronx with a cousin, Melody, who lives near him in Connecticut.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

312.176

And by the time they get there, which is the same night, Solomon's body is still in the park. And no matter how hard they try, they can hardly process what's going on. Like, again, sure, the area had a reputation, but this was Solomon's home turf. Like, he and his family knew most everyone in the area, and he'd spent countless hours playing basketball on the very courts he was killed by.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

333.931

I mean, he was even playing earlier that day. So they can't think of anyone who would want to do this to Solomon.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

345.519

Well, right, that's what police want to find out. His mom tells them that she knew that he was playing basketball that afternoon, but then he came home at some point that evening. And then a friend stopped by at around 8 p.m. And just an FYI, Detective Klein asked us to use pseudonyms for any witnesses and suspects that we discuss. You'll kind of see why later.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

363.991

But we're going to call this friend that came by Gail. Gail and Solomon left the apartment at around 8.30. And at the time, Edna thinks that he was going to walk Gail somewhere, but like that's really all she knows. And police learn that Gail is local. She lives in an apartment about a mile away. And she's actually home when they go looking for her.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

382.602

And she tells investigators that she and Solomon are romantically involved. But she doesn't know everything about his movements that night because, yes, she did meet up with him. But after they left his parents' place, they just hung outside his building with some other people for a while. And then at some point, he, he being Solomon, left with someone. But Gail didn't know who.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

403.715

She just knew that they were going to go to the corner store. Now, she says she stayed back. And when they all got back, not too long after, Solomon hurried upstairs. She doesn't know where or like to what apartment or even why he seemed to be in a hurry. But when he came back down, he was wearing a jacket, which he had actually borrowed from a friend who lived in the building.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

424.434

And presumably this is the one that he was wearing when he was killed.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

428.197

Now, Gail says that Solomon told her he loved her and he would be back. And then he walked off in the direction of the park.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

436.579

That's what she's saying. Yeah. And she says she was still hanging around with friends when she heard he'd been shot. And she said she tried to go over to the park, but with all of the cops and activity, like she couldn't even get close enough to see anything. So she just went back, hung around his building for a while, maybe hoping this was all a mistake or waiting to hear more information.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

456.103

But eventually she went home. A lot of details in this case are kind of fuzzy. Like there is no information about the identities of the people that she and Solomon were supposedly hanging out with that night in front of the building or why she went home instead of sticking around.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

472.015

But whatever investigators were able to glean that maybe isn't written down in black and white for me like decades later, they seem to determine that Solomon wasn't going to that party or hanging out in the park at all. He was just passing through it.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

490.487

That might be why. Truly, I don't know. But if he wasn't going to the party, then where was he going? Right. And why would this well-liked guy with no enemies to speak of, who's just home for a few days, be the target of such a brutal attack? And if no one could tell them why, then surely someone could tell them who, right? Because there were so many people around when he was killed.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

515.71

So the lead detective on this case really hits the streets hard to canvas. And just a quick aside, because I can't not tell you this, and it kind of has nothing to do with the case except, like, I mean, it kind of does. Like, the lead detective's name is Loser Lane.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

534.157

Dude, not only is it his real name, like we, I mean, I obviously have like 45 follow-up questions. We found out Loser has an older brother. Do you even want to guess what his older brother's name is?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

550.846

His brother's name is Winner. No. I don't know if this was like a social experiment or what, but according to an article in the Chicago Tribune, their dad let their sister pick Loser's name and that's what she chose. And then they actually like went with it. And what I think is so ironic and why I say this is a social experiment is that Loser was this great student.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

571.835

He was this athlete who went on to become a respected NYPD investigator.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

576.157

While Winner became this small time crook and was arrested dozens of times. And I could literally talk about this all day long. Yeah, I'm now obsessed with this. We have to get back to this case, but you're going to hear me say potentially loser. I'm just going to call him Detective Lane. Okay.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

589.298

So Detective Lane, or Lou as the guys call him, he's out canvassing with other investigators, but they're just hitting like wall after wall after wall trying to get anyone to talk is like pulling teeth. Like no one wants to be labeled a snitch. Hmm. And the statements they do get are kind of all over the place. Like they hear Solomon was attacked by three or four people.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

612.068

Some describe the perpetrators as light-skinned Hispanic men. But like the details even there are like shaky at best. Like maybe one had a limp. Maybe one was wearing a tan jacket. Maybe it was the guys that were on the green dirt bike thing, whatever, driving near the park after the gunshots. Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe. But like all of these maybes go nowhere.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

632.466

Police do get excited for a minute when they catch wind of a rumor that someone actually videotaped the party, but no one can say who might have taken the video. And it seems like almost every time they identify someone who was supposed to have been at this party, that person has a suspiciously perfect alibi and was definitely not at the park when the shots rang out.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

655.933

If you go by the statements that detectives were getting, I mean, it seems like no one was at the park when Solomon was actually killed, which we know isn't true. And speaking of the party, they hear it was held to celebrate a woman's birthday. But when they track her down, she completely denies that it was her party at all. So they're basically like chasing smoke at every turn. Exactly.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

675.626

I mean, this is true even of some of the people that Solomon was like closest with. Like when they go interview Gail a second time, all of a sudden she has a new story for them. Now Gail says that she met up with her good friend, Solomon, and then he went to the corner store to get a drink, and that's the last time she saw him. I'm sorry, good friend? Just friends now.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

700.942

Although she adds that he was maybe hoping for something more, but like that wasn't going to happen because she tells them she's actually dating another service member, someone that Solomon maybe knows. I'm sorry, who? Like no one that was around. Like the guy that she is supposedly dating is stationed at a base in Colorado at the time.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

719.392

And if anyone was wondering, Gail assures police like, nope, there's no tension between the two men.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

731.298

From how the police report reads, yes. And listen, investigators had already kind of been doubting the truthfulness of her account before she changed the details around. Because her story, like the sequence of events, like it just didn't make much sense to them. But now they're really wondering what her deal is. And this kind of throws the whole narrative into question.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

755.621

Let's say that Solomon was actually walking to the store that Gail mentioned the last time she saw him. He wouldn't have needed to go into the park at all to get there. Like, it was right down the street from him. And police don't seem to think that a wallet was taken off Solomon. They don't think that he had one on him that night. So no wallet, no money. How could he buy some? Exactly.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

777.146

Like, if he was going to go to the store, he didn't go prepared. Solomon's brother Russell and their cousin Melody, they think that the whole corner store story is bogus. And they actually have a completely different theory about where Solomon was maybe going. They think that he was walking Gail somewhere that night. Somewhere that to get there would have taken them through the park.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

804.018

Right, right.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

813.468

Right. Maybe. Right. Detectives think probably. But for whatever reason, she's not admitting to that. So was he going to the store? No. Had he already gone to the store and then went into the park? Like, who was he with? I don't know. But this shows just how many lies and half-truths detectives were getting, even from the people who claimed to care about Solomon.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

82.651

Someone calls police, telling them that a man has been shot, and within minutes, EMTs and officers from the NYPD are on the scene. But it is absolute chaos. I mean, people are fleeing in every direction, trying to get away from whatever just happened. And a couple of guys on a green motorbike are speeding down a nearby sidewalk. I mean, true, pandemonium happening here.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

835.97

Now, meanwhile, while they're doing all of this canvassing, the autopsy is done. And that reveals just how vicious this attack truly was. The medical examiner finds four stab wounds in his back, each one at least three inches deep. They find another on his hip. But those actually weren't what killed him. It was the single gunshot that proved fatal. It tore through his heart.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

861.115

through his left lung and his stomach. When they recover the bullet, they find it's aluminum jacketed, so it's either a 9mm or a .38 caliber. It's actually another one of his injuries that really catches their attention. He has, I mentioned, a slash across his face. So this slash starts at one corner of his mouth and stretches all the way past the other side.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

883.359

Picture something like the markings of Heath Ledger's Joker in The Dark Knight.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

888.34

And that cut is what's known as a buck 50. And the name comes from the 100 or 50 so stitches that it takes to actually close it up. And police recognize this immediately as a hallmark of gang violence. But.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

905.456

No, he wasn't. But detectives are thinking that his killer or killers might be. So over the next few months, they cast a wide net looking into all sorts of criminal activity happening in the area. They investigate a local drug sales operation to see if maybe there's any connection there.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

922.649

And every time they make a nearby arrest and confiscate a weapon, they request ballistic testing to compare it to the bullet that killed Solomon. They even look into recent robberies around the park, despite not believing that Solomon's murder was about theft.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

939.937

Yeah, that's their best bet because nothing else is moving this case forward. They process dozens of bottles and cans from the park. They're looking for fingerprints, but every time they come up empty... They even get the story featured on TV and they managed to get a $10,000 reward approved for information, but none of that helped either.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

960.443

So they're hoping that something else, some other crime might be the thing that gives them a lead. And that is exactly what happens. But not until like eight months after his murder in January of 1999. That's when Detective Lane gets a promising lead from a Bronx narcotics officer who tells him that during a drug arrest a few days earlier, they took someone into custody.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Solomon Robinson

987.341

I'm going to call this guy Frank. And Frank indicates that he has some information about Solomon's homicide. So detectives go visit him in jail on a Tuesday. This is January 12th. And he gives them a detailed account of what he says happened that night. He tells them that he was outside of a building that overlooks the park and he saw Solomon Robinson walking through with a couple of young women.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

0.563

Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1011.248

And even in this devastating moment, they're thinking about how she can help others. So Liz is declared dead on Saturday, January 26th at 1.40 p.m. But she is kept on life support for the next few days to preserve her organs. Her loved ones barely leave her side during that time. I mean, they're hardly sleeping or showering, let alone thinking about the investigation.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1034.48

Now, Deputy Ritchie does show them a censored version of the shooting footage, hoping that they'll recognize the killer or maybe the truck, which they don't. But after listening to the audio, they are convinced that Liz didn't know the shooter because they said if she did, she wouldn't have said, like, good morning. She would have said, like, good morning, so-and-so, like their name.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1057.403

I think so. Yes, they are.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1063.765

I don't, yeah, I don't say people's, I'm not like, good morning, Brad. I'm just like, hey, you.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1072.447

Whether I knew them or not. Yeah. I kind of went back and forth. This is actually something I had Nina, like, push on. But she said she talked to them and they are, like, adamant that whoever the shooter was, Liz did not know the shooter. Yeah. So by this point, the shooting video is circulating in the media as well.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1088.991

And while it hasn't given police the big break that they thought it would, it is still a huge help. They might not be able to ID the killer, but they can start ruling people out. Like Liz was 5'2", and all things considered, detectives estimate that the killer was somewhere between 5'4 and 5'8". And they think they have an athletic build. Maybe they're like 140 to 175 pounds.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1112.995

No, it's not clear enough on the video for them to say. There's a lot of early speculation that it's a woman. Deputy Ritchie specifically thinks their mannerisms and gait appear kind of feminine, but he knows that doesn't necessarily mean anything. But while they're grappling with the uncertainty, they are getting clarity on other areas, too.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1131.091

So like piecing together a timeline of the killers movements from the area surveillance cameras. Now, it turns out that the Frontier was in the Barraza's neighborhood hours before the shooting, at around like 2 in the morning. Though Investigator Ritchie says that it didn't pass by their house at that time.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

115.354

So at first they think that she might have just accidentally set it off while she's like going in and out of the house or whatever. But when they call her to check, she doesn't answer the phone. And things get even more unsettling when the alarm company contacts them directly because they tried calling Liz and they can't get a hold of her either.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1150.706

Yeah, and they can't see who's driving because the footage is too grainy. And without a plate number, they can't be 100% sure that it's the same Frontier, but like everything else matches. They're like pretty sure it was in the neighborhood at 2 a.m.,

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1181.592

It's not... I don't think they think that the person was sitting there from like 2 to 7 or at least that's like maybe not in the same spot. The camera only catches them from what I understand briefly at around 2. But then after that, we don't know where the truck goes or what they're doing. If it's even there in the neighborhood at all. Were they lying in wait off camera? Maybe.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

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Did they leave and then come back? What we do know for sure is that they're back at around 6.48 a.m. Literally right as Sergio was leaving for work.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

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Maybe. But even that doesn't totally make sense because, like, they didn't actually, or apparently... They weren't by the house at 2. They were just, like, in the neighborhood. Right. Because, like, the Barraza's camera doesn't pick them up. So if they're scoping out the house, they're scoping the house outside of... Where the house actually is.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1234.516

The camera view, which to me would mean that you already know about the house or that there's a camera outside. Yeah. I don't know. It feels like pre-scoped. Right. But maybe they were just getting a feel for the neighborhood or like how they're going to... Like escape route situation. Yeah.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1249.402

Anyways, when they returned later that morning, the driver briefly rolled into the parking lot of a preschool near the entrance of the Brazos subdivision. Then they pulled out and headed toward their street. But instead of turning right toward their house, they make that left, hit a U-turn, stop the truck, and then cut the lights.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1269.406

Now, from where they parked, it seems like they knew Sergio's van would pass them almost like about four minutes after he left. That's when the killer makes their move. And I know this is a lot to visualize. So we are going to have maps and stuff on the blog post, along with links to the videos that I've been talking about, which various news sites have already shared.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1289.292

So the whole point is the whole thing seems carefully planned. Even the murder weapon, which they haven't found, points to that. So there were no shell casings at the scene suggesting that the killer used a revolver, likely a .38 caliber based on the bullets that they recovered.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1305.742

And revolvers keep their shell casings inside, which would be a smart choice for anyone who wants to avoid like leaving evidence behind or having to take the time to clean up evidence they left behind. So someone went to a lot of trouble to kill Liz and to get away with it. But now police need to figure out why. Because the why should lead them to the who.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

133.083

So Rosemary gives them the go ahead to notify police and she and Bob throw on some clothes, jump in the car and head straight to Liz's home in Tomball, Texas, which is like 15 minutes away. Bob told our reporter, Nina, that a lot of that morning is just a blur for him at this point. But he does remember speaking to their daughter's husband, Sergio Barraza, on the drive over.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1331.79

As detectives delve into Liz's world, there is one major focus, and that's the 501st Legion, that Star Wars group. This isn't some casual fan club. It requires a serious commitment from members who dress as Star Wars villains while doing charity work, which makes them think kind of about the strange disguise that the shooter wore.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1353.503

Maybe that unusual flowy costume and those boots could have been part of a stormtrooper uniform. Maybe. Like, I actually have, it's so hard to see, but I have, like, a screenshot. And I think it's actually better, like, in motion.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1368.609

Yeah, because you can see, I've heard Princess Leia somewhere as well, but you can, like, see how it flows out.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1375.51

I thought it looked like a house robe.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1389.133

And listen, even though, like, most of what this group is about is charity, anytime you have a large, passionate group of people, drama feels a little inevitable. And Liz's local squadron was no exception. Investigators hear about personality clashes, rivalries, arguments.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1412.312

They check her out, but after interviewing her, they're convinced— that she's not involved. And actually, after looking at all of them in this group, they don't think Liz's killer was on the group's roster. And by the way, none of them drive a frontier. So at that point, the investigators turn their attention to another big part of Liz's life, her job.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1434.11

Now, she's a data reporter at the Rosen Group, which is this company that inspects oil and gas pipelines. So she worked at the Houston branch with a small, close-knit team And it doesn't take investigators long to clear all of them, too. Liz was the only one who was out of office that Friday.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1451.3

And when they map out her colleagues' addresses and times that they showed up for work, it is clear that none of them could have killed her. And again, no frontiers in the mix.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1465.734

Deputy Ritchie considers that, but he says that her job duties were like really straightforward. She literally just like took data from robots that inspect pipelines and then turned in reports. So like there is nothing he can see that would make her a target. The thing that seemed to maybe make her a target or I should say like an easy target on that particular day was the garage sale.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1486.987

And I have to believe, like so many people I've seen like talk about this on the Internet, that that is the key to everything. Because it turns out that almost no one knew she was having it that day. The only people in Liz and Sergio's life that they told about the garage sale were some family members and her coworkers. They didn't post anything online.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1509.275

Sergio says that they only put up two signs, neither of which even listed the address. But this, it wasn't a last minute thing either, I should say. So it was Liz's idea. And her mom, Rosemary, told us that she had been talking about it for at least a month, although it's not clear when she finalized the date or like requested the time off from work.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1537.301

But it's still like a pretty small group of people, like even more so now that they've ruled out her co-workers. You know what I mean? Like at least when you post on Facebook Marketplace or something, like your suspect pool becomes like it's the whole Internet. Right. But that didn't happen here. So we're working with a very small, very specific group of people.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

155.493

Now, Sergio's not home. As a crew chief for his father's flooring company, he'd already left for the day. But he tells them that he also got the alarm alert. And when he checked their Nest doorbell camera, like the live feed for it, He saw police tape and cops, like, in the background.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1560.258

Apparently that's like how it's done around there. Her dad, Bob, says that Friday is like when the serious garage sale. Like the day. Yeah. And Liz planned to like run the sale through Saturday before they left. They were going to leave on Sunday. So like that's just how it works down there.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1579.986

No. And again and again, police keep coming back to one thing. Based on everything they know, Liz was the target. This doesn't feel random. It wasn't like it was going to be her or someone else that day. It was about her and only her. So they look back at the person closest to her, Sergio.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1600.473

Now, they learned that he and Liz were college sweethearts who bonded over shared interests like traveling and dressing up for Star Wars events and Renaissance fairs. They married in February of 2014, bought their house a couple of years later, and truly detectives comb through their stuff, their phones, their bank records. They are looking for anything that might connect Sergio to the crime.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1625.21

A strange call or text around the time of the shooting, unexplained financial transactions. But there is nothing.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

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They wanted to, but Investigator Ritchie says that the DA's office wouldn't authorize it. When you're talking about, I think you were already talking about it as a cell phone dump. Yes. So those are actually pretty controversial because phone companies are basically turning over data on every single device that pinged a specific tower during a set of times.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1660.356

Yeah, a wide area, even phones that like weren't being used. And they've become the subject of a lot of legal battles. So long story short is if Sergio did have a burner phone, we might never know. Right. And I do want to add like a little caveat about their finances. So Sergio is an independent contractor for his dad's business. So he has to handle his own taxes. Right.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1684.053

The Barrazas have a financial advisor, but Liz managed their shared accounts. Sergio just kind of, like, handed over his paycheck each week, and the only separate accounts that they had were very, like, low-limit credit cards used to buy each other gifts. Which is all that to say, yes, the bank records are clean. I don't know if that, like, proves everything.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1701.825

I mean, if you're hiring someone to kill your spouse, you're probably not paying them from your checking account, I would assume, your joint checking account. No.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1716.013

Well, here's what I can tell you. So the longer the case drags on without finding the shooter, the more convinced everyone is that it was a professional hit. To your point, like it doesn't have to be a lot. And they're sure someone was hired to do this. And while police can't connect Sergio directly to it, he is still the obvious suspect for this. But Sergio keeps cooperating.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

172.585

And he even, this is wild, he, like, used the speaker on the doorbell camera to try and talk to them, like, what is going on. He did get someone's attention, but they wouldn't tell him what was happening. They just said that he needed to get home immediately. So when Bob and Rosemary pull into Liz's neighborhood, it is like every parent's worst nightmare unfolding before their eyes.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

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He takes and passes a polygraph like anything police want, he gives them.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1751.185

Well, yes. And there were some inconsistencies in his story. Like, at first he told police that he and Liz put up the garage sale signs the morning of the shooting. Then later he changes, says it was the night before, which would have been Thursday, January 24th.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1766.477

Which might not mean anything, but I'm still curious about it because I haven't spotted pictures of these signs in any of the news coverage and in all of our reporting. We haven't actually found anyone who saw the signs.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1781.667

Deputy Ritchie hasn't even seen them. But I also don't know if police looked for them. Like with everything going on, it probably wasn't a high priority. So again, maybe it's nothing. Still, if anyone listening has seen them, like our DMs are open. Yeah. But honestly, the whole sign thing is pretty minor compared to what investigators learn about Liz's life insurance.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1802.98

So remember how Sergio told detectives that Liz had a policy, it was through her work.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

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Right.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

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Well, it turns out me and Sergio have different ideas about, like, what not a whole lot means. Because that policy is actually worth a quarter of a million dollars. What? ! Yeah, and since Liz was murdered, a double indemnity clause doubles that payout to half a million dollars.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1831.655

I know, which feels like all the red flags we need. But hang on, because this is where like, I don't know, this might not be the smoking gun. I think it would be in every like husband did a case. Right. So the weird part is, by all accounts, Sergio genuinely didn't seem to know how much the policy was worth. Liz got the policy when she started working at Rosen back in 2014.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1854.431

And it was actually her dad, not Sergio, who encouraged her to get all of the coverage that her company offered. Bob thought it was like too good of a deal to pass up. But either way, whether he knew about it, whether he didn't know about it, like all the things Deputy Ritchie warned Sergio. He's like, don't even think. Right.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1897.724

Just him. Yeah, but here is the big problem with, like, Sergio as the mastermind theory. Every single person detectives talk to, friends, family, coworkers, everyone tells them that he and Liz were really happy together. Like, normally when you dig, right, you've got the life insurance policy and the timing is so weird. There's someone that...

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1927.844

There is like Deputy Ritchie. He digs and digs. He doesn't find anything to suggest, like anything funky going on in texts, in emails. He goes through all of it. There is no hint of an affair. There is no fights, nothing. And look, like, who couldn't use an extra half a million dollars to make life easier? But it's not like the couple was in major debt or anything like that.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1949.641

Like, normally you'll see, okay, like, the money was the motive. That's not the case here. They lived within their means. He didn't need that money to get out of a bind or to start over. Right. But there was someone else very close to Sergio who was apparently in a significant financial bind. That is Sergio's 57-year-old father, Oscar.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

195.425

Their daughter's usually quiet street is swarming with emergency vehicles. First responders tell them that a young woman has just been airlifted to the hospital. And as they get closer, they realize that all the commotion and activity is centered around their daughter's house. And there is this trail of blood on the driveway mixed in near items that she had set out for the garage sale.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1971.397

Now, you see, Sergio's mom had recently discovered that Oscar was cheating with multiple women. And that was bad enough. But then they learned that he was also spending a lot of money on these girlfriends, like to the point where his finances were suffering. One of Sergio's paychecks that he had gotten bounced recently.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

1990.646

And while they weren't hurting for money, Liz was like understandably upset by this. And according to that Paula Zahn episode, Oscar blames Sergio's bounce check on just like an accounting error. He tells investigators that his finances are totally straight. Everything's good. But county court records show that around this time, Oscar was hit with several lawsuits for unpaid taxes.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

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And in divorce filings, Sergio's mom said that he gave over $20,000 to three different women.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

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She kind of was. So this again, this is where like it doesn't totally add up. Like because from what Sergio tells police, she never confronted Oscar about this. Sergio says that he and Liz decided basically to stay out of it. And after all, I mean, he still worked for his dad.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

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The only thing that investigators have theorized is like, well, what if Oscar knew about Liz's life insurance and then he thought Sergio might invest the payout into the family business?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

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That's what I'm saying. It doesn't make sense because police can't find any proof that Oscar did know about the life insurance. It's still a possible theory. But it seems so far-fetched. I know. Now, it's clear to them, same thing with Sergio. It's like clear to them that the surveillance footage doesn't show Oscar. He isn't the shooter. But then they have the same question, right?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

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Like, did Oscar have someone orchestrate this thing?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2103.371

Maybe. So on the Paula Zahn episode, Sergio implies that he was the one who first suggested his dad's potential connection. Oh. But at any rate, like his son, Oscar is cooperative. He passes a polygraph. And when detectives go through his phone and bank records, they can't find anything linking him to Liz's murder.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2132.97

So while Oscar has made some questionable decisions with his life, there is no evidence that he plotted to have his daughter-in-law killed. And so a couple of weeks into their investigation, police aren't much further than they were when they started. They've ruled people out, but they're not any closer to arresting anyone.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2152.804

And that seems impossible in a case that feels like it should be so straightforward. Like they need something more. They need something solid to go on. So they decide they're going to go ask the public for help. And on Wednesday, February 6th, investigators and Crimestoppers joined Liz's loved ones for this big press conference to announce a $20,000 reward for information.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

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And Bob, followed by Sergio, make heartbreaking pleas to the public.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

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Now, initially, officers are tight-lipped, but they tell Bob and Rosemary the most critical detail, and that is that it was Liz, their daughter, who's been shot.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2252.887

So it seems like Liz's family is standing by Sergio. Oh, yeah. I mean, he's actually been living with the Nellies since the shooting. So they're still, like, presenting as one unit. They're still close. And standing next to her family, her parents and Sergio, Deputy Ritchie feels the weight of their pain and the mounting frustration of unanswered questions.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2275.935

But what keeps him optimistic is that they already do have a critical piece of the puzzle. Information about the shooter's truck. A Nissan Frontier is what's considered a midsize pickup. And in Texas, where big full-size pickups dominate, he figures that it should stick out like a sore thumb.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2293.361

So they pour their efforts into tracking this car down, hoping that this is going to be the brake they so desperately need. When Deputy Ritchie gets the registration records for Harris County, which includes Houston and the surrounding areas, he finds out that there are over 1,000 frontiers.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2315.025

And guess what the most popular color is?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2317.829

Yes. And ultimately, they do narrow it down a bit more thanks to Nissan. They have the salesman who recognizes the specific style. So it's a four-door Pro 4X crew cab that was made from like 2013 to 2019. Great. Unfortunately, the registration database only lists the basics. So it doesn't specifically say if like someone has a Pro 4X or whatever, like two-door, four-door or whatever.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

232.252

So the police were actually the ones who set it off. Oh. They were responding to 911 calls of gunshots in the neighborhood. And when they arrived, she was laying on the driveway near the garage, still breathing, but barely. She had like a faint pulse. That's where she was shot.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2348.213

Not quite. So what they decided to do is they actually go and use a license plate reader system to sift through the database, highlighting potential matches and then using photos to eliminate trucks that clearly don't fit. But they also can't just go knocking on the door of every dark-colored but probably Black Frontier owner in Texas.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2367.656

Instead, they look for trucks caught on the plate reader camera near the crime scene that morning. But even that doesn't lead anywhere.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2376.167

Like, for instance, there's a Black Frontier that police stopped nearby right after the shooting, but it didn't have the same decals as the killer's truck. And then they can't, like, those aren't things that can just be, like, removed on a whim. Plus, the driver was an older Hispanic man whose body type didn't even match the shooter. So, like, they quickly ruled that one out.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2403.972

Well, no, because it's Texas. There's no state-level registration requirements for firearms. And honestly, if I had to guess, I don't even know that the killer would use a legally registered gun for this.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2420.441

Well, police look into that, like or at least the stolen. There weren't any reports of stolen frontiers or even like stolen license plates from frontiers like during that whole time. But it is still possible or like they used a fake plate or maybe they borrowed a plate and then put it back for anyone who knew. Right. There are just like too many maybes for detectives to draw any real conclusions.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2443.391

But speaking of the truck, so the one thing they hone in on, remember the strange doubling back that the shooter did? Well, surveillance footage shows that after shooting Liz, this person drove all the way to the main entrance of the subdivision, nearly a good quarter of a mile away before making a U-turn and then driving back past the Barraza's.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2463.278

And again, initially, nobody knew what that was about, like, because they didn't get out, they didn't stop, whatever. So it gets Stephanie Ritchie wondering if maybe someone like called the shooter, like the person who's pulling the strings and told them to go back and make sure she was dead. So he gets this idea.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

247.279

And the alarm only went off when officers went through the unlocked door between the garage and the house to like secure the scene.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

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He's like, I'm going to try geofencing, which is completely different than like the cell tower dump we were talking about. Geofencing, like you literally get a very specific area for a very specific time and it'll tell you like what. All the activity. Yeah.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2494.589

So he puts a digital perimeter around the Braz's house and he gets a warrant for Google location data from every device in that zone around that time of the shooting. Hope being that if a device moved in and out of the geofence at the right time, that could lead to the shooter. So detectives wait and they wait. And finally, around May or June of 2020, they get the results.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2517.187

But it's another disappointment because the only device with unusual movement belonged to first responders. So the killer, at least they're thinking, probably didn't even bring a phone with them. Though there could be another simple explanation for why they came back by the Barraza house.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2536.145

The other thing they start thinking is like, what if they turned around because they were trying to avoid running into police? Yeah, a resident security camera caught the truck heading toward a dead end cul-de-sac right after the shooting. And that is the last anyone sees the truck. It doesn't turn around. It doesn't come back. It couldn't have just vanished there.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

254.002

So Bob and Rosemary are like reeling. Liz is the most positive person they know. She's creative. She's kind, always helping others. She's a Harry Potter fanatic who spends her free time reading and dressing as Star Wars characters to visit sick kids. So like in the immediate moment, they're like, who on earth would do this to our daughter?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2556.195

though no the um they think that maybe it went off-roading like jumped the curb like at the end of this cul-de-sac tore out through yeah like there's like this um green belt area that gets you to the main road and they're thinking that maybe they went far enough away where law enforcement because if you think about it like i told you law enforcement's there within like minutes so if they're coming in the main entrance which they probably would have used like they can't get out without passing them yeah they might have seen them they turn around they like hightail it out of there

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2591.702

So, Investigator Ritchie says that they went house to house. By the way, I don't think that theory was part of the initial police investigation, though. Like, Liz's parents learned—and I'm talking about, like, them jumping the— Yeah, the off-roading. Yeah. Yeah. Liz's parents learned that through a YouTuber named Aaron Stoner, who analyzes cold cases.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2611.235

And so while this might not be the breakthrough that catches their daughter's killer, it at least matters to Bob and Rosemary. Like, in the face of so much uncertainty, any clarity that, like, they can be brought brings them comfort. But it doesn't bring him answers. And life without Liz is a constant struggle. Sergio never goes back to the house that they shared. Bob helps him sell it.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

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He stays with the Nellies for nearly a year, though eventually he does get a new place. He does start dating again. And for Bob and Rosemary, it's like that moment is bittersweet. Like it's hard to see him moving on, but they are happy for him. I mean, they know it's what Liz would have wanted. Mm-hmm. The public, however, has like a very different reaction.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2653.253

Like it's always the people not closest to everyone who has like the strongest feelings. Because when Sergio posts something online about being engaged again, police are like flooded with tips. Rumors start swirling that he and his fiance Amber were having an affair before Liz was murdered, that Amber was somehow involved. Sergio denies it all.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2673.152

He and Amber went to the same high school, but, like, so did thousands of other students, and they insist they didn't know each other at the time. He tells KHOU11 reporter Grace White that they ended up meeting on a dating app in 2020, which was after her murder. Mm-hmm. Now, investigators don't just dismiss the gossip outright. By now, Michael Ritchie has been promoted to sergeant.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2694.354

He's transferred to another division, but he is still working the case. He like goes so far as to like dig through old high school yearbooks after hearing like maybe there's a photo of Sergio and Amber together. He comes up empty. Amber even ends up taking a polygraph, which she passes.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2709.44

So while no one has been completely cleared, Sergeant Ritchie is confident that Amber had nothing to do with Liz's murder.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2728.989

And it's not even just because of social media like that these stories are spinning. So the constable's office accidentally released incorrect information early on, which just like added to the confusion of everything. Yeah. And that's why Bob and Rosemary created their own website, WhoKilledLizBarraza.com. It gives them a chance to set the record straight, keep Liz's story alive.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

274.6

And this isn't a high crime area either we're talking about. It is this nice middle class neighborhood. Drive-by shootings are not something that they deal with. So before her parents can even begin to wrap their heads around this, Sergio pulls up. And police ask him to stay nearby for questioning.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2749.885

But they know a website alone isn't going to get them justice. Someone out there has to know something. Maybe they just need a little incentive. So on the third anniversary of Liz's murder, they announced that the reward is now up to $50,000, thanks in large part to a community fundraiser. And they're not the only ones who refused to give up.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2771.261

When Sergeant Ritchie transfers back to homicide in early 2023, he takes over as lead investigator again. He's grown close to the Nellies in all this time, and he wants to get them answers. But he warns Bob and Rosemary that learning the truth about who's behind her murder, is going to devastate them.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2797.938

That's what I thought too. But he told us it wasn't about a specific suspect. It's more like he's been trying to prepare them from the start that whatever happened, whoever did this, it was probably someone close to them. It goes back to the original theory, right? Like someone targeted her, someone who knew she'd be out there that day.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2815.767

Right.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2818.829

They're really careful not to point fingers. They are confident and police agree that this wasn't the work of just one person. They think that there was a shooter and then there was someone who put the shooter up to it. But figuring out who those people are and why is enough to drive anyone up a wall. Like I said, Nina and I sat in my office spiraling.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2841.625

When I first decided we were going to cover this case, I had heard about it. Like, I knew the story. And I was like, this has to be one where when you talk to detectives, when you talk to the family— We're just missing a piece of it that's not in the reporting right now. Right. Like, oh, we just can't say this thing out loud.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2856.431

Let me be the one to assure you as a crime junkie, there is not something that I'm not telling you out loud.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2863.794

This is it. And nothing makes sense. So in a world where nothing makes sense, what her parents have done is they've tried to focus on things that give them a sense of purpose, like the impact of Liz's final gift. The recipients of her organs had spent a combined 22 years on transplant lists before receiving her heart, her liver, kidneys, and corneas.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2887.396

And her best friend started the Liz Library, which donates Harry Potter books, like the sets of them, to children's hospitals in her honor. And Bob and Rosemary are channeling their energy into supporting other parents of homicide victims as well.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

29.951

And Brett, like this is one where truly when I say I have no idea what happened, I have no idea what happened because there is no theory that makes complete sense. And Nina and I, she's the reporter that worked on this. We were in my office, I mean, going round and round and round for literally like an hour talking about theories and feelings.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2903.749

They're not as much as they used to be, but I mean, he joined them for another press conference on the fifth anniversary of Liz's murder. They also reached out to him on our behalf to see if he would speak with us. He told them that he would think about it, but then we never heard back. And I get it. Like, he's got a new life now. He's got a new wife. He recently became a dad.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

291.231

So while he waits there along with his mom who shows up to be with him, the Nellies rush to the trauma center to be with their daughter. They are clinging to hope the whole 40-minute drive over, praying that she's going to pull through. But when they get to the hospital, the same one where Liz spent so many hours volunteering, doctors tell them that she's not going to make it.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2922.473

He doesn't work for his father anymore. He still, from what I can tell, doesn't know if Oscar was involved in Liz's death and that I would imagine, like, put a big wedge between them.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2936.821

No, he told Grace White that he doesn't need it. But the reality also has to be that he knows investigators would like fight to keep that money from being released still.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2951.839

No. I mean, they can ask the insurance company to deny payment. They can't block it indefinitely without a court order. And since Sergio hasn't been charged with anything, like, he could push for that money if he wanted to. I think the insurance company would probably have to pay up eventually, like, if he started that fight. But he would have to be the one to start that process.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2972.654

Yeah, I don't think he will. Like, he knows a lot of people believe that he's responsible for Liz's death. And I think he thinks trying to claim that money would, like, just add fuel to that fire. Mm-hmm. And again, like the life insurance is just one piece of a larger puzzle, one that the Internet sleuths have been trying to solve since the day Liz was murdered.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

2990.724

If you go down these online rabbit holes, which believe me, I have, you will find every scenario under the sun. But there are a couple that I've seen pop up like a couple of times that it's worth hitting on. One is that the shooter might have had access to the Barraza's Nest doorbell camera system and like could have been monitoring their movements in real time. Like they were hacked? Maybe.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

3012.276

Or there was speculation maybe that Sergio and Liz might have had a public URL enabled on their camera, meaning that anyone with the link could view the live stream. But like Liz's parents were adamant that's just not something she would do.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

3024.907

And as for whether Liz or Sergio gave the login to anyone, like I highly doubt it since, I mean, Bob and Rosemary didn't have it and we know how security conscious they were.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

3036.194

Right. But then if someone did have it or hacked it or whatever, like that would have left a digital footprint. And that kind of data might be able to connect to a specific person or device or location or whatever. But it doesn't seem like police accessed those records, although I don't know why they left that out.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

3065.104

I think we're all just grasping at straws, grasping at anything, because I'm telling you, nothing makes sense. And the timing is so precise. So another theory is that Liz's murder was a gang initiation. Like someone had to commit a random act of violence to prove themselves.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

3088.883

I know.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

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And I I think this one only started at least in part because I think that at one point it was noted that the Texas anti-gang unit got involved with the investigation. But specialized units often help with complex cases. Like they have resources, expertise that local departments don't have. So like I don't read much into it. Like if anything, I don't know.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

3110.84

What's clear, though, is that this case has never truly gone cold. The sheriff's office has worked with the Texas Rangers. They worked with the FBI. They were following leads across the country, even into Mexico at one point. No one has been completely ruled out as a suspect, including Sergio and Oscar. But investigators have looked at them from every angle.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

313.282

She's been shot point blank four times. Once through the side of her neck, twice in the chest, and finally once in the head. So while Liz is still technically alive, police know that it's going to be a homicide case now. And while her parents grieve, the Harris County Sheriff's Office jumps in with Deputy Michael Ritchie at the helm.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

3131.014

And as of right now, they have hit a wall. So Sergeant Ritchie is challenging himself to think differently, to reconsider every assumption. But no matter how he approaches it, he keeps circling back to the same core questions. Who knew about the garage sale? Who had motive to kill Liz? And who could fit the description of the shooter?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

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Liz's loved ones have spent six years searching for those answers. They need our crime junkies' help. If you know anything about what happened to Liz, please call the Houston Crime Stoppers at 713-222-TIPS. The $50,000 reward is still on the table, and it can be collected anonymously. You can also contact the Harris County Sheriff's Office at 713-274-9100.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

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You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

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We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. And be sure to check out our YouTube channel. We'll be posting this as a video in the coming weeks. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

335.571

And as he and other investigators question Sergio, it quickly becomes clear to them that it actually hadn't been a typical morning for the couple, even before the shooting.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

345.618

So normally, Liz leaves for work by 6.30, 6.45, but she had taken the day off for that garage sale she was doing, which she had prioritized to make some extra spending money for her and Sergio's trip to Disney and Universal Studios. They were supposed to leave for Florida that Sunday to celebrate their upcoming fifth wedding anniversary.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

365.416

So between what Sergio tells investigators and what they're able to pull from the doorbell camera footage that he gives them, police know that Liz was up super early. She went to Starbucks at 6.08 and then the couple started setting up the sale in the driveway when she got back. And then Sergio left for work at exactly 6.48.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

385.879

Now, Sergio says that he drove to a Lowe's about five miles away to meet his flooring crew. Everything was fine until he got that security alert on his phone. And he explains that on his way home, he like actually actively was like rewinding the doorbell footage, trying to find out what happened. And while he couldn't see the shooting itself, he could hear it.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

4.107

And the story I have for you, it is about the baffling murder of a young woman. It is the kind of case where, like, everything feels like it's going to fall into place at first with all of the pieces that they have. They literally have the murder on film. So investigators are super confident that they're going to catch their killer within hours. But six years have gone by and it is still unsolved.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

407.265

And he shares the footage with investigators, too. Now, the sound quality isn't great, but what is audible is Liz greeting someone and she's cheerful. She says, good morning. And there's this like muffled brief exchange of words followed by four deafening gunshots. And then Liz screams. And there has been endless speculation about what was said in that quick conversation.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

432.972

But even after detectives enhance the audio, all they can hear for sure is just Liz's good morning, the shots and the scream.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

443.476

Well, not on the Barraza's camera, but a neighbor's security camera caught the entire thing. This is what is so wild and why I said this case is so frustrating. So as Deputy Ritchie reviews all of the footage that he can get his hands on, he cannot believe how brazen it was. So what he sees is there's this dark-colored pickup that pulls up at around 6.52 a.m.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

465.516

This is four minutes after Sergio left. The truck first passes Liz's house, then it like makes a U-turn, parks at the curb, and then the driver, who appeared to be alone in the vehicle... Leaves the vehicle running. Walks over to where Liz was setting up. And it's so weird. They're wearing what looks like a disguise. What? It's like this... You can't really see because it's still dark outside.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

49.864

And we were just losing our minds because we're trying to get the pieces to add up. But her family's hoping that someone, maybe somebody even listening or watching right now, can help bring them the justice that they have so desperately been seeking. This is the story of Elizabeth Barraza.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

492.996

So, like, the footage is almost like night vision, kind of. But it's like a flowy coat or robe paired with what detectives call go-go style boots. Like, I can't really see the boots. And then... maybe this person has a really long hair or it might be a wig. And I'm saying like they because like police can't even determine if this shooter is a man or a woman.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

515.126

The video quality, like I said, is super poor. Everything's cast in this like bluish gray tint. But this shooter approaches Liz. You can see them like have this exchange. It looks like they might even have shown her something. Like there's this moment where it looks like... Like kind of a transaction. Yeah. Yeah. But police don't find anything like a note at the scene or something.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

537.338

Or a pamphlet or anything. Yeah. And this person pulls out a gun and they shoot her three times. She collapsed and then they stood over her and that's when they like fired that final shot to her head. And then as soon as that final shot is fired, they run back to their truck and leave. The entire encounter is over in less than a minute.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

562.631

No. Like I said, it was still kind of dark out. Multiple people heard the gunshots. They're the ones who contacted 911. The first call actually came from a man who lived across the street. He had a clear view of the shooter's truck, which he's able to tell them is a Nissan Frontier that is almost certainly black.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

579.679

But this is what's really puzzling to investigators is that in less than two minutes after the neighbor called, while he was still on the phone with dispatch, there's this eerie moment where the truck drives back past the Barraza's house again. And like everything about this crime looks so professional and planned and deliberate.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

599.934

But this doubling back past the scene, this is the part that seems sloppy, like an amateur move that like almost certainly would have gotten them caught, like given the right circumstances.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

613.786

No, like they didn't stop. They didn't get out. Like, I don't know what the reason was. And unfortunately, again, this should have been a sloppy move. But for whatever reason, luck was on this shooter's side because no one gets a good look at their license plate number. And none of the surveillance footage that they do get is clear enough to ID it.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

631.405

But still, in those early times, Deputy Ritchie is optimistic. They've got this video footage, plus constables were on the scene within minutes, and they quickly put out a bolo for a Black Nissan Frontier.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

646.062

No, like, minutes tops from the time police arrived. But the real reason that Richie is so confident is that this seems way too methodical to be random. Like, this had to have been targeted. It feels pointed. Right. Like, take how the shooter approached. When they pulled up, the Barraza's house was to their left. So the driver's side door was already facing the driveway.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

668.775

The easiest move would have been to just stop right next to it, quick in, quick out.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

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Instead, they make that U-turn. They turn around and park like farther down the street. That meant getting out, walking around the front of the truck to reach the driveway, then running back after the shooting. But the maneuvering kept them mostly hidden from the Barraza's nest camera. So Deputy Ritchie thinks that they knew where that camera was and what that camera could see.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

699.054

Maybe. But whoever did this, the real feeling they're getting is that they must know a lot about the Barrazas. I mean, on any other day, Liz would not have even been home, let alone outside alone. Now, investigators figure that Sergio is going to give them a name. Like, who is the person that has a grudge against Liz who drives a black Nissan Frontier, like case closed? But that's not what happens.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

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Sergio mentions there is one woman who Liz had a disagreement with. She is a member of a Star Wars fan group that they belong to. It's called the 501st Legion. But he insists that, like, whatever disagreement they had, like, it was petty drama, nothing that would ever lead to murder. Actually, the first thing Sergio suggests is maybe this was some kind of robbery gone wrong.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

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But police know that that doesn't track. Nothing had been taken. Liz had $100 in a lockbox for making change for the garage sale. That's still there untouched.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

756.695

You're right. It is obvious. And Deputy Ritchie isn't taking anything Sergio says at face value. He knows they have to start at square one. And square one is always the person closest to the victim. The investigators ask about the couple's marriage, which according to Sergio, is perfect. They've been together for years, just like living their best lives with their docs and diesel.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

780.891

No affairs, no serious issues. He tells them that he would never harm Liz. And detectives are confident that he didn't pull the trigger. I mean, even if they hadn't checked with the people that like he met up with at Lowe's. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But he gives them access to everything, the house, their electronics, his phone, Liz's phone, which she had with her.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

819.645

And according to an episode of On the Case with Paula Zahn, he even tells them about a life insurance policy that she had through her employer, which he would be the beneficiary of. Although he says that he doesn't even think it's worth that much. But from the start, investigators think even if he is so cooperative, like there is something off about him.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

838.712

Sergio keeps saying how worried he was about Liz holding that garage sale alone, that he encouraged her to have someone with her, but she said she'd be fine. And that's actually why the alarm was set on the house to begin with, even though she was outside. He says that he had her set it on the door from the garage at the house.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

857.183

That way, if anything went wrong, all she would have to do was run to the door and open it, and then help would be on the way. Hmm.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

874.298

Yeah. Again, they're in a pretty nice neighborhood, too, which is like I keep taking into account. I don't think there was like a history of garage sale robberies or anything even remotely close. But Sergio like just tells police that they're just super cautious people. But that isn't the only thing that's raising red flags. His overall demeanor is odd to them.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

896.946

Like sitting in a police car listening to the doorbell camera audio with Deputy Ritchie, he almost seems calm. Like the deputy is expecting some kind of reaction as they hear those like booming gunshots and they hear Liz scream. But Sergio's face is just blank. Now, some early police reports claim that Sergio never asked about Liz's condition, but that is actually not entirely accurate.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

921.454

So he was talking to investigators from at least two different agencies. And while he might not have asked everyone, at some point he definitely inquired about her status and whether he could go to the hospital. But when detectives finished questioning him and tell him he can leave... He doesn't. Deputy Ritchie watches as he kind of just lingers around. He's, like, talking to neighbors.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

942.998

He's checking out what the media is doing.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

948.3

I'm not sure what investigators have told him or, like, what updates he's getting from her family, but obviously he knows that she's shot and has been airlifted to the hospital.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

959.524

Yeah, and his lack of urgency isn't what detectives expect in that situation. Mm-hmm. Now, meanwhile, the Nellies are at the hospital trying to process what feels like a nightmare. Liz is registered under an alias in case the shooter is still after her, which is like such a weird reality for them to be in. They have no idea what is going to happen next or what they're supposed to do next.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

98.581

It's around 720 on the morning of Friday, January 25th, 2019, when Bob and Rosemary Nellie wake up to their phones buzzing. And it's a notification from the alarm system on their daughter's home. Now, they know Elizabeth, Liz, as everyone calls her, is holding a garage sale that day.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza

986.32

Not really. No, like everyone, I think everyone is just so focused on Liz and they know police needed to question him. Plus, Bob and Rosemary trust him. They have never doubted that he loves their daughter. So when Sergio and his mom do finally get to the hospital, which is sometime that afternoon, he and Bob arrange one final act of generosity on Liz's behalf. They are going to donate her organs.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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She was in the kitchen with Jill, just kind of chatting, whatever, when Jill started, like, rifling through her purse, kind of absentmindedly looking for something that she couldn't seem to find. And she's doing the thing we all do, right? Like, she's, like, just pulling the most random shit out of her bag. It's, like, piling up on the table. And all of a sudden, she pulls out a knife.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

1025.066

Now, it's a pocket knife, but still, it was, like, abnormal enough that it stood out. Why does Jill need a pocket knife? And right away, Gloria's like, um... Can we talk about that knife on the table? Are you toting that thing around for any particular reason? And Jill's response was brief and to the point. Just one word, zero elaboration. She said, protection.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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She was carrying the knife for protection.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Gloria didn't push. Now, clearly, there is a whole lot more investigators need to find out. But even in talking to Raylene's family, too, they don't learn much more that's helpful in identifying a motive or a killer. She was just this sweet girl who was doing a solid for a friend. By all indications, she didn't have any other reason to be in Waco, not that day or any other.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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It's like this, almost like this stupid twist of fate for all of them, really.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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It's very possible because even though Kenneth was the one clearly posed at the scene, when they talked to Richard and learned more about his movements that day, it just doesn't seem like there was anything going on in his life that would lead to something like this. And according to Richard, Kenneth didn't even know Jill was in town on the 13th until she called out of the blue that evening.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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And you go back to that, like, terrible twist of fate. Like, what if he'd missed her call? Would he still be alive? Would all three of them still be alive? I mean, it's enough. Like, I can't imagine being their parents and, like, having those questions just, like, drive you absolutely up a wall. And those questions are also driving the entire city a little crazy. Yeah.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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As you can imagine, once word gets out, it spreads through Waco like wildfire and beyond. And everyone thinks that they've got the key to solving the case, which means the tips do start pouring in almost right away. It was some dude from a local biker gang. No, it was members of a satanic cult. Actually, it was the nervous hitchhiker with blood on his pants.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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They're all investigated. All of them. But like point being, in the blink of an eye, it becomes one of those everyone and no one predicaments. WPD is flooded with all of it. And before long, they can't keep track of which tips have been checked out, which ones haven't.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Even days in, they still can't figure out why Raylene's car was found at Caney Park and the kids were found clear across the lake at Spiegelville Park. I mean, witnesses do confirm that the kids were at Caney Park that night, just like Kenneth told his dad they would be. But then how did they get to Spiegelville? They don't know. Like, had they been taken there?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Would they have gone there voluntarily?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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And how did no one see them leave? Like, it's the trail just seems to end.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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And today, I'm excited to tell you that tickets are officially on sale.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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This is like a whole thing. So at the time, Bill Moore reported for the Waco Tribune-Herald that the loose consensus among investigators is that the kids were killed where they were found. I think one of the contributing factors was the fact that there were people over at Caney Park and no one ever reported hearing any screams, nothing like that.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

1224.19

So they figured they must have been killed in the more secluded park. But I don't know because the scene itself doesn't actually agree with that theory. Like for something so brutal, there wasn't really a ton of blood there. Yeah. There were kind of subtle signs of a struggle because Michael Hall reports that the grass around the girls' bodies had been visibly disturbed.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Like it had been like, he calls it like flattened, suggesting that both had struggled in those spots.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

1255.93

Yeah. Or if that's where they were being posed or like. Like a disturbance is just like. Or it's like if someone's carrying them and drops them and then like, I agree. Yeah. And listen, not everyone is on the same page because guess who has a different hunch?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Patrol Sergeant Truman Simons isn't your standard American cop. He is a go-at-it-alone man. Thing is, law enforcement is a group sport. You got to be able to play well with others and play by the rules. So being more rebel than ride-or-die hasn't always endeared him to his brothers in blue. But in his 17 years on the force, his record of closing tough cases is second to none.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Our man Simons. And it's true. He's not part of the investigation in an official capacity, but he can't let go of this case. I mean, he made a promise after all. So the whole time the official investigators are chasing down leads, Simons is spending his free time out at the lake looking for answers, existential or otherwise.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

1295.79

And as far as he's concerned, the supposed consensus about the kids being killed right there where they were found, frankly, he thinks is horseshit. He said that he knew the minute he stepped out of his patrol car, the day that the bodies were found, he just, I mean, feels it is what he says, like kind of literally. And I can't do it justice.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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So I pulled this excerpt from Careless Whispers that I condensed just a bit, but I'm going to have you read.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Poetic. Yeah.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Yeah. I mean, it's, like, a little over the top. But at the same time, I've always said, I think, call it whatever you want.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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But I think, like, intuition feels like the right thing. That I think certain investigators or people who, like, profilers, I think that people have a different level of, like, intuition. You know, whether this guy's is right or wrong, TBD.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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And again, very flowery language, but like, whatever.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Yeah, no, they searched both of them rigorously. Not so much as a drop of blood found at Caney Park.

Crime Junkie

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Like, no one. It doesn't have to be both either place, like both places, either place, whatever. So maybe he's right. Maybe everyone else is right. Maybe the autopsies will tell more and maybe no one's right. You know what I mean? Right. So the autopsies were done by Dr. Mary Gilliland. She is the Dallas County Emmy.

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Now, listen, you know you're a Deep Tracks diehard crime junkie if that name rings a bell, because Delia just spent a lot of time talking about Dr. Gilliland in season six of Counter Clock for a case out of North Carolina, which, like, gives me a little pause because... I can't even begin to get into it. Like, if you know, you know.

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If you don't, go listen to season six and then come back and see if it changes your opinion. But at a high level, the biggest takeaways from the autopsies are this. One, the pattern of the wounds on all three suggests to Dr. Gilliland that the perp was likely left-handed.

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Two, neither Jill nor Raylene's sexual assault kit detected the presence of semen, but they were both determined to have been sexually assaulted. Three, Jill is the only one with defensive wounds, and she also has what Dr. Gilliland calls torture wounds. Four, she's also got some weird small bruises that the doctor doesn't place much importance on, but notes anyways.

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And five, Kenneth also has some quote unquote torture wounds too. Although without getting into a ton of detail, his weren't as extensive as Jill's. But are you ready for something unexpected? Or at least something that was unexpected for me.

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So this guy's not here to make friends. And people kind of know that about him by now. When the radio in his patrol car crackles to life early in the evening of July 14th, 1982, and dispatch directs him, another officer, and a special investigator to one of the parks on the shores of Lake Waco, he can read between the lines.

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So, Bill Moore reports in the Waco Tribune-Herald that even with all of this carnage, Dr. Gilliland isn't shocked about the relative lack of blood where the victims were found in the park. That same reporting by Moore says that according to a justice of the peace named Joe Johnson, quote, The autopsy showed the wounds would not normally have bled much when compared with a cut artery. End quote.

Crime Junkie

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A slit throat? I don't know. This is what it said. So I don't know like the extent of which the throat was cut.

Crime Junkie

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Yeah. And it seems like no arteries were cut like based on this quote when compared with a cut artery. So I don't know.

Crime Junkie

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She just says one knife that had a single blade. It was less than an inch wide, maybe five inches in length. She suspects that it was a buck knife. Oh, and she has something interesting to add about the bindings that were used. So she determines that most of the restraints and bindings on the victims weren't restraints or bindings at all. Or at least, like, that's not how they started.

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Not designed to be anyways. So really what they were... was stuff that was taken from the victims. Like, I guess Jill had been wearing a terrycloth shirt that night, and that shirt turned out to be a lot of the bindings. Like, it was ripped into strips. They also used shoelaces. Even that bra that was tied around Raylene's leg, that was actually Jill's bra used to bind her.

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Exactly. Exactly.

Crime Junkie

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It all comes back to Jill.

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So let me get back to the autopsy real quick. So as for toxicology, samples were sent off for testing, but those results we know take a while. They're still pending, you know, and we know how that goes. It could come back tomorrow, three months from now. Good luck. TBD, maybe we never hear about them again. But we have to hear about them again because those might be the real clencher.

Crime Junkie

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You see, investigators start to notice some patterns in the tips that are getting called in. And patterns might not even be the best word. Let's call them like themes. And, Britt, we've been doing this for a while. We kind of know that the line between a lead and a rumor can be about as clear as mud. But where there's smoke, there is often fire.

Crime Junkie

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And there is one theme that is throwing up smoke signals left and right. And it's about the kid's supposed drug use. And I should be specific here. Kenneth's name is the one that seems to always be mentioned. Supposedly, he was known to heavily misuse drugs.

Crime Junkie

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No, they talked to all of them. Not a word about this.

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On the tip lines. But some of these tips get pretty specific, like names and whatnot. And one of the more specific rumors going around about Kenneth is that he owed like three grand to a local drug dealer named Terry Lee Harper or Tab as they call him. But Tab was said to be running out of patience with Kenneth. Now, Tab and law enforcement go way back.

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Chances are this is something serious because special investigators are the big guns. They don't get called out for just anything. Mm-hmm. Just then, dispatch radios over again and says that they're responding to a quote-unquote questionable death and that deputies from the sheriff's office are going to meet them out there too.

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But the thing is, Tab's never been suspected of anything like this. Like, dude's always been more of a high misdemeanor, low felony kind of guy.

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But no one's ruling him out just because of that, especially because Tab himself has been going around taking credit for the murders. And listen, people bragging about murdering people when they didn't to look tough or cool or whatever, it might sound bananas, but it honestly doesn't even register for me anymore. Like, we've seen this so many times.

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Right, so I'm not ready to zero in on him just based on that. But there is this other interesting little tidbit. So it turns out Tab was spotted at Caney Park that night that they were killed by multiple people.

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Well, here's the thing. Just as this TAB stuff is starting to gain momentum, there is a wrench thrown in this theory. The tox results come back in early August, and according to reporting by Bill Moore, those kids were clean as a whistle. All three of them, they didn't have so much as a sip of beer in their system.

Crime Junkie

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Exactly. And honestly, I think the results almost take the wind out of investigators' sails a little bit, or a lot a bit.

Crime Junkie

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Because on September 9th, when good old Sergeant Simons moseys past Detective Salinas' desk and starts kind of thumbing through the Lake Waco case file that's just sitting out because he can't help himself, he finds a document in there indicating that as of September 3rd, the Lake Waco cases have been classified as quote-unquote officially inactive.

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But we're still in 1982. Like, we're talking less than two months since these kids were killed. Yeah. And according to Carlton Stowers, it's a little more dramatic than just inactive. He writes that the case is all caps suspended. But regardless of the specific verbiage, the end result is the same.

Crime Junkie

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Viable leads will be checked out, but only viable leads that come to them and practically land in the lap of investigators who have a little time to spare. Wow. And this is unacceptable to Simons, who takes it upon himself to call the chief of police at home.

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He pulls up to the Spiegelville Park gate at the same time as a bunch of other investigators. A few of the faces he recognizes, like Detective Ramon Salinas from his own agency, Waco PD. Now, the crime scene isn't something you can just ride up on. So a pickup truck has to escort this like line of people down deep into the park, down this like winding dirt road.

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Rank and file. Know your place is very much alive and well in many departments even today. So forget 1982. Right. But Simons is a bold guy. And... Sometimes it takes those kind of people to shake things up and get done sometimes. So when Chief Larry Scott picks up, Simons is like, yo, Chief, like, all due respect, but this Lake Waco situation is...

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And I kind of wonder if Simons is surprised by the response because he doesn't get chewed out or told to know his place. The chief doesn't even argue with him because the chief has no idea what he's talking about. What? This guy is blindsided.

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The investigation into some of the worst murders to hit Waco in modern times has been closed by his investigators after an investigation that didn't even hit the two-month mark. And nobody bothered.

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In that moment, he agrees with Simons. This situation is fucked. And the people he has working this case are the wrong people because they're not working it.

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And in that moment, that's when Simons is like, you know what, chief? I volunteer as tribute.

Crime Junkie

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And Chief Scott probably has to take a beat to think about this proposal because according to Hall, these two men have something of a love-hate relationship. To be honest, love-hate relationships are kind of like Simons' jam. But Simons pipes back up. He tells the chief, listen, I will have this case solved in a week. One week.

Crime Junkie

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And that's all the chief needs to hear. The case is his.

Crime Junkie

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I know. I don't think he's necessarily buying it. But at the end of the day, Simons is right on the only point that matters. To put a case that rocked the city on a shelf and basically label it, we quit after such a short time, it's indefensible. Mm-hmm. So nearly two months in, Simons is officially given his chance.

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Chief Scott assigns Officer Dennis Bayard to work the case alongside him just to give him some backup, extra eyes, extra hands, whatever. And Michael Hall says that the two start digging into the files the next day. And that's when Simons comes across a lead that seemed to gain no real traction.

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It's from another kid at the Methodist home named Lisa, who pointed her finger directly at a very unlikely culprit. Lisa suggested the person responsible for the murders was a young man named Munir Deeb. Munir is in his early 20s and owns the convenience store right across the street from the Methodist home. It's actually a store that Simons himself has been in before. He's seen this guy.

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He knows that Munir and his family immigrated from Jordan, and he's not a big guy. He's not even a scary guy. He walks with a limp that the kids often make fun of, and he seems to be desperate for friends. So he lets the Methodist home kids use his store like a hangout, even though they often aren't kind. They even take advantage of him. And apparently, Kenneth in particular was mean a lot.

Crime Junkie

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And the two had a pretty openly hostile relationship. And listen, I want to make the lines very clear. Whatever Kenneth did, it absolutely does not excuse murder. This is not victim blaming. But I also don't like the idea of glossing over some pretty ugly behavior. Some of it was harmless, like he would roar his motorcycle engine as he sped through the store parking lot.

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But for a remote woodsy scene in a remote woodsy park, what they pull up to is borderline chaos. A local television news crew or two beat them there. A good number of other investigators did as well, like the sheriff's deputies, some park rangers, some constables. And unbelievably, Carlton Stowers writes in his book Careless Whispers that someone even brought their young kid to this crime scene.

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Some of it was a little more pointed, like he would hold up the one-finger salute at Munir. And some of it was downright racist and cruel, like mocking his limp and calling him either Ahab or Abdul, depending on the reporting. And to be clear, Ahab nor Abdul appear anywhere in his name.

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And it seems like the root of Kenneth's disdain for Munir boiled down to Munir's unrequited love for Kenneth's best friend at the Methodist home, this girl named Gail Kelly. Kenneth thought Munir was creepy and encouraged Gail to stay away from him.

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But according to kids at the Methodist home, Munir was like completely infatuated with her, like so infatuated that he supposedly offered her a job at his store, which it seems like she took, just like he wanted her to be there a lot. So Simons and Bayer visit Gail at the apartment she's living in now for this in-person interview.

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And when they go see her, he's struck by something, something that he had heard before but couldn't really appreciate the significance of until Gail was right in front of him. Gail looks a lot like Jill. Now, when he asks her if anyone's ever told her that her and Jill look alike, she's like, yeah, people would actually assume they were related.

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Stowers writes in Careless Whisperers that despite doing their best not to clue Gayle in on their suspicions about Mounir, she picks up on it. And she asks them if Mounir is a suspect. And Simon's kind of deflect, saying that they'd heard that Mounir and Kenneth didn't really like each other, which Gayle confirms. But still, she says, like, she doesn't think he's capable of anything like this.

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But when Simons asks her if she'd heard Munir talk about the murders at all, she says, yeah, for a while he kept bringing them up to her. And one time when she said that she hoped their deaths were fast, Munir said that he had heard that Kenneth had suffered. And he didn't exactly seem upset at the idea. Gail obviously was upset for obvious reasons.

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And she's like, listen, I don't want to hear that. And since then, she said Munir hadn't said anything. And that's pretty much all she could give them at the time. But, you know, they did the cop thing. Here's my card if you think of anything. Like, give me a call. And around 1 a.m. the next morning, Gail actually calls him. And she's got something wild to tell him.

Crime Junkie

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As soon as Simons picks up the line, he can tell that Gail is upset. Hall writes that she just keeps saying over and over, he did it, he did it. And when she eventually takes a deep breath or two, she starts telling him how Munir had taken her and her friend to the movies that very night. And after the movie, Munir said to her, I did it. I killed them.

Crime Junkie

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Now, I don't know if they looked upset or horrified or whatever, but, like, immediately he says he's joking. Though, at that point, it's a little late for that. Like, Gail says she doesn't think it was a joke. Like, she, by that point, really believed that he was involved. So, as far as Simons is concerned, hearing this, like, it is now all systems go on Mr. Munir Deep.

Crime Junkie

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Simons had given himself a week to close this case. And here he is on day like two or three. It's all coming together. Simons is being Simons. He's like, I'm ready to move forward with an arrest now. But the other guys at his department, like Lieutenant Horton and Sergeant Bob Fortune, they tell Simons he's jumping the gun in a major way. Even Bayer has his doubts.

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But there's only one guy's opinion that really matters, and that's Chief Scott. So Simon takes it straight to the top. He makes a beeline for this dude's office, fills him in on what he's learned so far about Muneer.

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And when he tells him that Muneer might be about to run, to like flee the state, who knows, possibly the country altogether, that's when Chief Scott gives him the green light to just go get this guy.

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To be completely fair, I don't have a solid answer. I know what I think the answer is, but I don't know.

Crime Junkie

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Anyway, with the chief's green light, Simons has Munir arrested. And by the time he's talking to him, Simons has already developed a theory. Munir had to have had help. Physically, he just does not think he could overpower all three teenagers alone. So Simons and Sergeant Fortune start going in on this kid, asking him what he knows about the murders.

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And right away, he swears up and down he knows nothing. He had nothing to do with them. And eventually, Simons changes tactics. If he's not going to connect himself to the crime, then Simons needs to see if he'll connect himself to this name that he's kind of heard a few times by this point, Chili. Now, apparently this Chili guy is kind of rough. He hangs out at Munir's store.

Crime Junkie

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You don't even, like, know at this point because among all of these people, like, bustling about, Simon's zeroes right in on the reason they're all there. And it is so much worse than he expected. Under a nearby tree, there is a young man. He is dead and propped up against the trunk of the tree. His shirt is drenched in blood and it's shredded with flash marks.

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But like all he has is clearly Chili's a nickname, right? Right. So it seems like he kind of goes off book and he just straight up asked Munir if he knows this guy. And Munir doesn't deny it, like, at all. He's like, well, listen, I own this centrally located convenience store that brings in a whole bunch of different people. And yeah, one of them is this guy that everyone else calls Chili.

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And Simons is like, oh, yeah, like, that's what I thought you'd say. Like, cough up the guy's real name. But I don't even think Munir knows it.

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Literally nothing. Yeah. The only thing that we've got is that he hangs out at the store. But really what it is is like it's just this he's heard the name and he has this gut feeling. Another gut feeling by Simon.

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I would hang on. So at this point, Simons and Fortune step out of the interview room for this quick break. And I said earlier, I think Simons went off book because I don't think Fortune knew he was going to ask about Chili because if he had, I think they could have saved some time because Fortune's like, hey, Simons, I actually know this Chili guy. What?

Crime Junkie

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His real name is David Spence, and he is kind of a frequent flyer. And actually, he'd just recently been arrested for something pretty gnarly. Him and this guy named Gilbert Melendez were arrested together for cutting a teenage boy on the leg and then sexually assaulting him.

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It's gotten him this far, right? And if he keeps leaning into it, he's pretty sure he's got a theory about all of this. He thinks that Gail was the real target of this attack, but Jill got killed instead because it was a case of mistaken identity.

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Well, he wouldn't. But Simons is thinking that he hired David because Gail rejected him. And I mean, I assume it's like a if I can't have her, no one can thing. But then David mixed them up. And listen, right about now is when I was starting to question Simons' gut. Like, again, it's gotten him this far. But, like, really mistaken identity.

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Like, you killed two more people just because they're there.

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But, like, just when you, like, start questioning it, there's always more. According to Hull, Simons and Bayer discovered that just weeks before the murders, Munir had taken out a $20,000 accident insurance policy on Gayle, listing himself as her common-law husband and beneficiary.

Crime Junkie

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Like, I don't, you almost can't.

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So I don't know exactly. That actually never gets, like, totally, like, filtered out. But for Simons, like, that's two in the weeds. Like, big picture here. This looks bad for Mounir, but it is great for Simons, who is sure that he just unraveled the conspiracy that had confounded everyone who came before him in the 50-something whole days they worked on it.

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But even though this is suspicious, not everyone is sold on this. When Lieutenant Horton finds out that Simons has Munir in custody, he straight up tells both him and Bayer, in a room full of detectives, that they just went and messed up the entire case for everyone. But Simons is undeterred. And with Munir in custody, his family realizes that he needs an attorney like ASAP.

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I know. You guys can find... a full list of tour stops, and purchase tickets to a show near you on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com. Listen, the best I can, like, tell you is to get it now because how many years is it? It's been five years. It'll be six years since we were on tour again. We might wait another six years. If you want to see us in the flesh, do a show.

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And in the riskiest of gambits, this attorney that they hire demands that his clients sit for a polygraph. And he's cool with investigators arranging it like pick your very best favorite polygrapher, like go to town, let the chips fall where they may.

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Well, I don't know. This guy might have been just that because as scary as this tactic was, and, you know, it breaks our other rule, never take a polygraph. But in this case, it plays in Munir's favor. He passes a three-hour polygraph. And just like that, the victory Simons thought was within his grasp just evaporates. Mounir is released from custody. Simons is humiliated.

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And after 17 years with the force, after this, he just up and quits. Wait, what? Why? I mean, like, I think clearly this guy has an ego, let's be honest. But part of the reason he quits is, like, I think he is still 100% sold on his own theory, right? And if Waco PD isn't going to let him get the justice he promised Jill, he's going to figure out how to do it another way.

Crime Junkie

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And of course, the guy's got a plan. It's a plan that, you know, would potentially be described as harebrained in a movie, but it would have some unlikely hero declaring like, this just might work. So remember David Spence and his friend Gilbert Melendez. They're facing some serious charges that have nothing to do with Lake Waco.

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Both of them are being held in McLennan County Jail while they're awaiting trial for that. Obviously, right now, Simons is newly unemployed and he's going to play the long game. So what does he do? He takes an entry level job in the county jail because he's going to cozy up to David and try and get a confession out of him.

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Which is like a small detail and maybe doesn't even register with some of the people at first, but it's It's like eerie because there had to have been some kind of struggle, even if it wasn't a big one. So it just feels like at some point that would have fallen off. And so someone had to have put it there. And it's like they put it there in almost like a playful way.

Crime Junkie

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I know. There's a first for everything. And listen, Simons has charisma, and he starts throwing a little kindness David's way. And before long, David actually likes him. They talk for hours upon hours about everything under the sun, including the murders that Simons wants to take him down on. And... This is the thing. There's, like, no game here. He knows it.

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Halls writes that during an especially difficult period, David's girlfriend is about to abandon him, and he says to Simons basically, like, you're my only friend, and you're trying to kill me. Like... Dark times for David because we're in 1980s Texas. The phrase trying to kill me is not a metaphor here. Simons literally is trying to get him killed.

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He wants to put David on death row and David knows it. But this isn't to say that Simons puts all his eggs in one basket because try as he might to wrangle a confession out of David, David does not budge on Lake Waco. He swears he wasn't involved and he's not going to say he was. But, no worries, Simons deploys that trademark charisma to develop other relationships as well.

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Relationships with other inmates. So when one of the inmates he's been working, Kevin Michaels, suddenly approaches him in January of 83... saying that he heard David confess with his own two ears, Simons is sure that all of his hard work finally has paid off. The informant also delivers up a new co-defendant on a silver platter, David's co-defendant in a sexual assault case, Gilbert Melendez.

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Now, obviously, Simons isn't on the force anymore, so he can't just phone up the police chief at home. So instead, he calls the new DA. It's this guy named Vic Feazell, who's young and brash and eager to make a name for himself. And he gets Fizell's assistant and is like, hey, Vic's assistant, you're never going to believe this, but I've got David Spence dead to rights on the Lake Waco case.

Crime Junkie

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Like the guys confess to every inmate that crosses his path. Because by the way, it's not just Kevin this time. Like before long, informants were coming out of the woodwork to turn on David. Of course. Now, Feazell is interested enough that he puts together a task force on the case in March of 1983.

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I mean, it's not like Wakeopedia has done much since Simons resigned, so why not make Simons part of the new team? And now that one of the informants is pointing the finger at Gilbert, Simons has some serious leverage all of a sudden, right? Divide and conquer.

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First, he goes to Gilbert and is like, so listen, I got some good news and I got some bad news. Bad news first, I'm about to put you on death row. But now the good news, if you're a really good boy and help me put David on death row, no harm, no foul. You can go on your merry way. I'll go on mine. Capisce?

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I don't know. Like, it's hard to pin down exactly what was and wasn't offered.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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But eventually, Simons has him scared enough of the death penalty to agree to cooperate just to avoid that. And so he folds. He says he was there. So was David. Now there's a minor hiccup when Simons takes Gilbert out to both parks. He takes him to Caney Park and Spiegelville Park. And Gilbert can't tell Simons who did what or when or where. Like he seems all dazed and confused.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Like whoever did this enjoyed it and wanted the police to know. Altogether, the scene tells Simons that this isn't the work of your average violent criminal. Whoever did this is a special kind of fucked up. They spent time with this kid. They made sure his last moments were awful.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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But as far as Simons is concerned, like, OK, no big thing. Gilbert said that him and David were drinking. They were getting high. So he kind of just like writes off the gaps in memory to that. But then Gilbert recants. Now, not knowing the specifics of the case, plus this, plus how we got here. Mm hmm. I'm like, yeah, this was a false confession. But Simons doesn't want that.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Instead, he finds a new way at Gilbert. Since Gilbert was his way at David, who was his way at Munir, Simons starts looking at Gilbert's brother, Tony, who is actively wanted in Corpus Christi on robbery and sexual assault charges. He picks up Tony, brings him in. I think he's hoping that he'll be able to pin Gilbert down. Maybe Gilbert had confessed to Tony or something or who knows.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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But then somewhere along the way, Simons seems to get another one of his famous hunches. And he starts to suspect that Tony could have been part of Lake Waco, too. So now he has one more suspect. But also, like, one less confession. Still no confession. And no physical evidence tying any of these men to the crime. Until Assistant District Attorney Ned Butler finds the clencher.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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So one day, this guy is looking over the Lake Waco autopsy photos when he has this, like, eureka moment. Remember those tiny bruises Dr. Gilliland had noticed on Jill that, like, she didn't know, but, like, worth mentioning? Yeah. Well, Ned thinks that they're a whole lot more than just tiny little bruises.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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He is coming off the heels of winning his first death penalty case, thanks in large part to the developing field of forensic odontology.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Yes, and he now knows a bite mark when he sees one. And he knows just the expert to call to confirm this. So he calls up a forensic odontologist, Homer Campbell. He gets him all the information, the pictures, and Homer's like, you are spot on, my dude. These are bite marks. Like, congratulations. So Ned has him compare the teeth marks with a dental mold of David's teeth.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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And wouldn't you know it, they're a match. So with a confession from Gilbert, even a recanted one, and David's teeth marks on Jill, he is full speed ahead.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Yes. I mean, you don't have to provide a motive in court. Like, you know, but if they want to take this to court, like, a why helps, and that's their why. Right. And on November 21st, 1983, a grand jury indicts Munir, David, Gilbert, and Gilbert's younger brother, Tony, on capital murder charges.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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In April of 1984, the judge decides that David will go to trial first, specifically on the capital murder charges pertaining to Jill's death. The trial starts on June 18th, and the closer the trial date comes, the more and more important it seems like the bite mark evidence could be. Because Gilbert's sticking to his recantation, and Tony has denied any involvement from the start.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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But just days before David's first trial starts, that changes, and Tony flips. He agrees to plead guilty to two counts of murder and claims he, David, and Gilbert killed the teens in Caney Park before transporting them to Spiegelville Park, just like Simons had always suspected. And in exchange for Tony's cooperation, he will get the relatively lighter sentence of life without parole.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Yeah. As Simons is taking it all in, Detective Salinas approaches him. He glosses right past the niceties and starts briefing him on what they know. Even though they got there at the same time, Detective Salinas already has the victim all but ID'd. He tells Simons that they're looking at an 18-year-old local boy named Kenneth Franks.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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So up against some jailhouse informants, a cooperating co-defendant, and a forensic odontologist to boot, David is convicted for the murder of Jill Montgomery after roughly a two-week trial. And within days, he gets sentenced to death. Which is right about the time when Gilbert decides to start cooperating again, and he takes the same deal as his younger brother.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Munir's first trial, also for Jill's murder, starts on February 21st of 1985. And it goes about the same as David's had, with a new piece of evidence, though. Shortly after David's first trial, Simons had been walking around Caney Park with an investigator from the DA's office. And they walked around the spot that Tony said the kids were murdered in, like in his confession.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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And apparently, laying on the ground under some leaves was a gold bracelet that looked a heck of a lot like one that Jill had. And so to Simons, it's more proof of the men's guilt. How so? I think because it backed up Tony's version of events.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Yeah, I mean, it proves at least to Simons and the prosecution that he's telling the truth, I think. But just as an aside here, I don't know if the family ever bought the idea fully that it was her bracelet. Because I guess it did look like the one she owned, but it was like ultra clean. Because if you think about it at this point, it would have had to been sitting on the elements for two years.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

3274.6

Right. And what are the odds of just finding it when the whole area had been thoroughly searched? Like it's just under a couple of leaves. So I don't know. But whatever story they told around it, the jury believed it. And Munir's trial ends in a guilty verdict and a death sentence.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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The confessions of two of his co-defendants with the testimony of some like informants sprinkled in? Question mark. Okay. Question mark. Now, at David's second trial, this one is for the murders of Kenneth Franks. He gets another guilty verdict as well as another death sentence. And to the chagrin of many skeptics at the Waco Police Department, Truman Simons becomes a true hometown hero.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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After David's first trial, the jurors even request to, like, meet him in the flesh. And who is Faisal to deny them the experience of a lifetime? He takes them into the jury room and he says, quote, Ladies and gentlemen, I thank God for men like Truman Simons. So should you. And they do. They really, really do. Along with just about every other citizen of the state.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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I mean, Simons goes on to be celebrated wherever he goes, in every last corner of the state, even going on to win a Peace Officer of the Year award.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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But before even receiving that award, questions start to arise about whether that title was actually deserved, whether the case was actually solved, or if Simons was so dead set on proving his gut right that he and some of Waco's most influential people died. railroaded four innocent men. I'm going to tell you the other side of the story next week. Unless you're in the Crime Junkie fan club.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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And they know this because Kenneth's dad, Richard, had reported him missing that morning after he didn't come home the night before. Detective Salinas has a picture of Kenneth in his hands, the one that Richard had brought in, and it is clear. Today is the worst day of Richard Frank's life, and he probably doesn't even know it yet. But here is where the mystery takes an even darker turn.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Fan club members get to listen to part two right now. You can find part two in the Crime Junkie app available in the Apple App Store and Google Play. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Detective Salinas tells Simons that Kenneth didn't go missing alone. According to Richard, he had gone out the night before with two girls from a small town up north called Waxahachie. One of them was Kenneth's friend, Jill Montgomery. She was 17, and her friend was the same age. Her name was Raylene Rice.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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So the two had picked him up from Richard's at around 8.30 or 9, and they said that they were going to go watch the sunset over Lake Waco, but not at Spiegelville Park, where investigators are now. They said they were going to go to Caney Park, which is clear on the other side of the lake.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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That one is smaller, less rugged, and that one tends to draw a crowd of local teens, especially over summer break. But it's not like they just changed their plans. Here is what's so weird. Before Richard ever reported Kenneth missing, he had gone out looking for them. And apparently he had come across Raylene's car at Caney Park. So the question is, how did Kenneth get here?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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No one knows. Just like Kenneth, Jill and Raylene never made it home the night before. And as the magnitude of all of this starts to set in, Simons looks around and realizes that with all the many investigators there, there is zero coordination taking place. No one is taking charge or thinking big picture. So he kind of takes this deep breath and just starts issuing commands.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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The growing crowd of people has to go. More and more media outlets are showing up and even civilians are starting to gather like legit gawkers are here at their crime scene. But they got to get everyone out. They need to start preserving. They need to notify Richard. And most importantly, they need to find the girls now.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Officers spread out in every direction and within minutes, a distressed cry cuts through the woods and just stops everyone in their tracks. Simons charges in the direction of the scream and somehow, again, what he finds is worse than what he expected. He'd gotten descriptions of the girls by this point and judging from the blonde hair that he sees, he assumes that he's looking at Raylene.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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She is gagged with her hands bound behind her back like Kenneth's, and she has too many stab wounds to count on sight. There is one giant gash that spans her neck. But where Kenneth was fully clothed, she has been stripped naked, except for a bra that's been tied around her right leg. There isn't much else around her except for a few beer cans that are littered in the grass.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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And then someone spots something else. A flash of skin peeking up just a teensy tiny bit higher than the tall grass and the weeds around it.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Oh, yeah. Venues are bigger this time, but we sold out, like, lickety-split. I know.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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It's Jill. Just a few dozen feet away, the flash of skin is her knee. Jill's body is a lot like Raylene's. Naked, gagged, and bound. Disfigured with stab wounds. And there is a deep, giant gash across her neck. And taking it all in, Simon starts developing a hunch. Something about Jill just feels different to him.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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He, like, can't totally put his finger on it, but, like, there's something in his gut that's telling him that it was her. Like, she was the main target of this whole thing. Like, whoever did this, whatever they were after, like, it involved her. She was, she's at the center of this.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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I mean, he doesn't. This is what I'm saying. It's a hunch. And Simons is a guy who just trusts his gut, and his gut is telling him that whoever did this was after Jill. Michael Hall did the most thorough piece on this case for Texas Monthly. I highly recommend everyone read it. I'll link to it in the show notes.

Crime Junkie

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But in it, he describes this moment that Simons has this realization and it's just kind of eerie because he says that Simons like crouches down by Jill's lifeless body and he whispers in her ear. He says, I don't know what's happened to you, but I promise you one thing. Whoever did this won't just go to jail. He's going to pay for this.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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I promise you that this won't be another unsolved murder case in Waco, Texas. And he plans to make good on that promise, no matter what. Now, here's the thing about that promise Simon's just made. If he's going to keep it, he's going to have to do it on his own time. Because even though he took the reins when everyone needed some direction, he's not the guy put in charge.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Yes. So do not wait. Get yours. Get them fast. And while you're over there, like going to CrimeJunkiePodcast.com and securing your tickets, let me jump into our story. It's a big one. This story that I have for you today is about the people we trust to steer the ship of justice and those who sometimes get swallowed up in their wake. This is the story of the Lake Waco murders.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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He's not even on the team. Patrol sergeants usually aren't. Waco Police Lieutenant Marvin Horton is officially put in charge with a team of seven investigators working the case with him, and they hit the ground running.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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While the kids' bodies are sent off for autopsies in Dallas County, where they have more resources, the team starts talking to anyone and everyone in the teens' lives, trying to get a feel for who they were. What were their families like? What were they into? Did they have sketchy friends, enemies, love interests? Like, where were they last seen? When, where, and by whom? Like, all the things.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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And what they learn actually muddies the picture almost as much as it clarifies it. So even though Jill and Raylene both live in Waxahachie with their families, Jill had been living in Waco until very recently at this place called the Methodist Home. That's how she knew Kenneth. He had lived there, too.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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No, it's kind of like this boarding school for troubled kids. Both of the teens had been sent there by their parents because they'd been doing stuff like skipping school, missing curfew, hanging out with questionable characters. And so all four of the parents felt like their kids were... They would say on a dangerous path and they would like they had run out of ideas about how to help them.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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And listen, I want to be really clear about something. Kenneth and Jill were not like bad kids, whatever people mean when they use that phrase. Like both of them had been affected when their parents divorced at sensitive ages. Both had struggled in school for reasons outside of their control.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Like Kenneth and Jill both had dyslexia in an era when accommodations for kids with different educational needs usually fell somewhere between non-existent and like straight up harmful. Right.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Careless Whispers goes into this stuff at length, but the quick and dirty is that for both of them, trouble keeping up in school led to a lack of effort in school, which led to getting in trouble in school and finally just not going to school. And then all that downstream stuff like that we talked about before.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Moral of the story being that both sets of parents were desperate to help their kids and they felt like they'd run out of less drastic options. So that's how they both ended up at the Methodist home. And the two really hit it off. They even dated for a few months. Like, it didn't work out, but clearly they stayed friends.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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And they'd stayed friends even after they both left and moved back with their folks. Kenneth was living at his dad's house in Waco. Jill was living at her mom's in Waxahachie. But here's what's interesting about them leaving. From what I can tell, Kenneth's departure was planned. Because, like, once he turned 18, it was his choice whether to stay or not. He decided not.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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But Jill's move was more impulsive and maybe a little bit more revealing. Carlton Stowers writes in his book that at the tail end of a weekend visit home near the end of June 1982, Jill caught her mom Nancy like totally off guard when she announced that she didn't want to go back to the Methodist home.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Which fell completely out of left field for Nancy because Jill had been doing really well there and she seemed happy. I mean, as far as Jill's dad Rod and her were concerned, like Jill was a success story. Even so, Nancy says that she could sense she needed to hear her daughter out. Like her tone, it wasn't confrontational.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Yeah. She was like more pleading. Like it was like vulnerable. She didn't recognize it. As she listened to Jill, she couldn't shake the feeling that there was something else in her voice, something big and significant that she couldn't quite place her finger on at first, but then suddenly it hit her that Jill sounded scared. But it wasn't clear what she was so scared of.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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And of course, mom tried to find out, but Nancy said no matter how many times she pressed, Jill wouldn't give specifics. Lots and lots of tears, but not specifics. So when her dad came over that night to kind of hash things out, he couldn't get more out of her either. And even though they didn't have a real why, they agreed to let her move home.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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And she did start to open up little by little over the next few weeks. Just a day or two before she was killed, Stowers writes that she asked her mom, "'Mama, what do you do when you love someone you know isn't good for you?' Now, the question wasn't totally out of left field. Nancy knew about Kenneth. And like so many teenage relationships, Jill's with Kenneth had its share of ups and downs.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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And she knew that the next day Jill was going to be in Waco to pick up her final paycheck from this part-time job that she had while she was at Methodist Home.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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Right. Or at least, like, had him on the brain. So this is where Raylene comes in. Originally, Jill had asked to borrow her mom's car to drive to Waco. But Nancy didn't want her going alone. So Jill asked her older brother Brad to take her. And I'm sure Brad has lost so much sleep thinking about a world where he did, where they picked up the check, came home, never knew this reality.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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But that's not what happened. Brad couldn't take her because he just started a new job. So Jill got a ride from her friend, Raylene. The girls were really close friends. They kind of decided to treat it like a mini girls trip. Like they'd grab Jill's last paycheck, hang out in Waco, then be home by curfew.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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No, I think that question she asked her mom was just one of the first things that came to her mom's mind when she was like looking back on that time leading up to her murder. Like, I feel like if that happens, like you look for meaning in everything. And it's totally possible that the reason she was scared and the question she asked are totally unrelated.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: The Lake Waco Murders Part 1

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It's also possible that the question she asked wasn't even about Kenneth at all. But make no mistake, she was still scared in the days leading up to her trip to Waco. Whatever fear drove her home hadn't subsided. Because investigators learned from Jill's sister-in-law, Gloria, that a few days before this Waco trip...

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

0.751

Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And the story I have for you today is one that has truly consumed me. In the 1970s, there was a serial killer lurking in San Francisco. One who some believe would sketch his victims as a way to lure them in and then attack them in the most brutal ways.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

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They are quick to pay attention and spread the word amongst themselves. And soon rumors start running rampant about a possible serial killer in their midst. And everyone's waiting for the next shoe to drop. But it doesn't. Weeks go by without another murder and then months. And as they inch up on the one year mark from the last murder, I imagine people's guards are down.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1047.603

And maybe that is what allowed for the next murder to happen. On May 12th, 1975, SFPD is alerted to the discovery of another body on the beach. That morning, a hiker finds a set of bloody drag marks that leads to the body of a young man. Now, this time it doesn't take police long to catch on. He has all the same hallmarks of all the previous murders.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1071.92

And they know in that moment that their killer is still out there and he has no intention of stopping. So maybe now's the time to put a little more effort into finding him before he can kill again.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1085.171

Their version, maybe. So here's something wild I just learned. The San Francisco Chronicle reports that in the 1970s, homicide cases were worked by shift. So instead of, listen, instead of being assigned to a specific, like one homicide is assigned to a specific investigator. What they did was like whoever was on shift would work it and then like pass it off to the next guy when it was his turn.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

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Dude, I know. Like, no wonder this was a serial killer's heyday. My God.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

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I know. Like, it makes no sense. So, literally, no one has any idea what's going on, who has what case, what he's done, what still needs to be worked on. It is a hot topic. that is especially messy when you have multiple cases that are connected. So the higher-ups decide maybe we should assign this newest case and the stalled investigations to a dedicated team of homicide inspectors. Like, right.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1154.715

Brilliant. So this isn't like a task force like you're thinking where it's like multi-agency or whatever.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1162.421

And they do get two of SFPD's finest. These guys have a track record second to none. And like, listen, if this was a movie like Q's slow-mo 70s title track where they like walk like head on into frame because the way that these guys are talked about, they are kind of legends in their own time. And they're fondly known as the Soul Brothers. Yes.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1184.86

I know. Their names are Rotea Guilford and Earl Sanders. And Inspectors Guilford and Sanders are SFPD's first and second Black homicide investigators. And it's hard to overstate just how radically they changed the course of the investigation. But first things first, they have to ID the most recent victim.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1207.0

Right. Same as the others. Right. But the victim, they find out, is a registered nurse. So his prints are on file with the State Board of Nursing. So somehow they get connected to those. And they find out he's 32-year-old Frederick Kappen. Like the others, Frederick was stabbed to death 16 times in total, the fatal wounds piercing his heart.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1227.477

Judging by the drag marks and the dried blood the coroner notes on the soles of his shoes, he went down fighting. Now what they find out is Frederick was last seen alive at a gay bar the night before his body was discovered. Actually, the same one Klaus was last seen at, this place called Bojangles.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1252.87

So they're not sure where he last was. I think everyone's guess is that he was probably out on the town before his death too, maybe. Mm-hmm. So if this is the pattern, Guilford and Sanders decide to meet the gay community where they're at. At the gay bars. Right. Now, these guys don't necessarily have the community's trust from day one, as you can imagine, but they're willing to work for it.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1274.73

And what do you know? A little respect and kindness goes a long way. And before long, they are hearing whispers of a rumor that has been making its way through the scene. Supposedly, there is a guy who likes to camp out at gay bars with a sketchbook in hand. And while everyone else makes merry around him, he quietly sketches the faces of other bar patrons.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1298.585

And word has it that this guy is like pretty good at what he does. Now, it doesn't seem like anyone is saying he did it or they saw him with the men or drawing the men or anything like that. But this guy has just been standing out for about as long as the murders have been happening. But before they can even begin to track down a name for this artist, it happens again.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1323.47

On June 4th, 1975, a man's badly decomposed body is discovered hidden in some bushes near the Lincoln Park golf course. Like the others, he's clothed, though his pants are unzipped and again, seemingly no ID. So all the signs are there and the case goes right to Guilford and Sanders. But this one's going to be different than all the rest.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1346.366

I mean, normally they're on a scene within hours of a murder, like things are fresh. But not this time. The coroner says that this man had been out there anywhere from 10 days to a month and badly decomposed might have been an understatement because Sergeant Cunningham told us that the remains are actually mummified, which basically throws their normal form of IDing the victim out the window.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1368.063

No usable prints. Somehow they do eventually ID him, though. He's Harold Goldberg, a 66-year-old sailor and naturalized U.S. citizen originally from Sweden. And then in July, another man is attacked. But he is alive when he stumbles into a local ER pleading for help. Now, dude is drenched in blood and he's saying that he's been stabbed.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

139.574

That call came into San Francisco dispatch in the early morning hours of January 27th, 1974. And I know that might have been a little hard to make out, but the gist is that the caller found a body on the beach. He didn't want to get too close to it. And the caller would not leave his name. He just thought that maybe the guy on the beach might need some help.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1394.843

And though he does want immediate medical help, make no mistake, he does not want the police involved, like does not want to file a report. He is adamant that he does not want a report filed, like he will not cooperate if one is filed.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1412.477

He's a European diplomat and San Francisco is where he was stationed for his job. I actually don't know his name because that's never been released. So I'm just going to refer to him as the diplomat. But they get his story nonetheless. I mean, again, he I don't know how they convince him, but they do. And his story is a doozy. He says that he was by himself in a diner called the Truck Stop.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1436.539

It's like 2 a.m. A nearby gay bar called The Rear End had just closed its doors. And he noticed a guy sitting alone sketching animals on a napkin. And these sketches were pretty impressive. By total coincidence, the diplomat has some art training. So they like strike up a little conversation about their shared hobby.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1454.94

And the guy doing the sketches was a young black guy, good looking, total like artist vibes, according to Ron Huberman. And the diplomat was intrigued when he mentioned that he was studying to be a cartoonist. So they're chatting. They hit it off. And when the diplomat asks if he wanted to head back to his apartment, maybe for a nightcap, whatever, the artist accepted the invite.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1476.658

So like, so far, so good, right? But when they got there, things got real weird, real fast. It started when the artist asked to use the bathroom. The diplomat was like, sure, no problem. So the artist goes in, but then the guy like wouldn't come out. Sergeant Cunningham told us that after so long, the diplomat was like knocking on the door. I mean, more than once asking if he was okay.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1503.166

About 30 minutes later, as the diplomat was standing with his back to the bathroom door, all of a sudden it swings open. The artist growled something along the lines of, you guys are all alike. and then he plunged a steak knife into the diplomat's back. Now, the diplomat started fighting back, but the artist managed to stab him six times before the knife broke off in his body.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1528.459

And thank God it did, because only then did the artist run out the front door, allowing the diplomat to barely escape with his life. And his injuries are no joke. I mean, the poor guy is hospitalized for weeks. And this, by the way, is when their killer earns the nickname... the doodler.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1547.724

Supposedly, Guilford and Sanders come up with it, although it's possible they heard it from the people in the community. So the diplomat is recovering. And then fast forward two weeks later, Guilford and Sanders learned that another man has just survived an attack by someone he'd taken home. And take a wild guess where that guy lives. Same apartment building on the same floor as the diplomat.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1574.119

What? They don't know each other, but I mean, like, they're so close they could borrow a cup of sugar. Yeah. This second attack isn't exactly the same as the diplomat. So this guy had been tied up, possibly voluntarily, when the guy that he brought home started beating the crap out of him. Thankfully, the attacker got spooked when neighbors heard screaming and started, like, pounding on the walls.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1598.186

Well, because the victim told police what he said as he started attacking him.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1604.23

Yep. But like the diplomat, this victim wants nothing to do with an investigation or an eventual prosecution. Like he does not want to be outed. And though he also says his attacker was a black man in his early 20s, Guilford and Sanders realized that he'd been pretty intoxicated and probably wouldn't be of much use with a sketch artist. but they think the diplomat would be.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

161.26

Now, within minutes, they had officers descending on the scene. And what they found when they got there was odd. I mean, they quickly spot the body that the caller told them about. But he's not just lying there on the beach, like the caller said. He is fully in the water, about to be pulled out with the tide. So much so that officers have to wade in and drag him back to dry land.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1629.126

Partly, Sergeant Cunningham told us, because he thinks he and his attacker were together for a while, partly because he was way less intoxicated, and partly because of his artistic training. So they go to him and they promise to protect his identity, asking him to please just spend a few hours with their sketch artist. He is their only real shot at getting this guy before he strikes again.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1654.027

But every time they ask, his answer is no, no, no, no, no, no. And then suddenly he says, fine. But that's all. Once they have their composite, stopping the guy is on them and they're going to have to do it without his help.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1667.253

Which, like, can you imagine, like, living in a world where, like, your own safety could be at risk, but, like, coming out and, like, just saying who you are is, like, scarier.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1678.142

Like, freaking terrifying. Mm-hmm. Guilford and Sanders jump at this proposal. And once the composite sketch is released in October, the tips start pouring in. The first big one is called in by an anonymous woman who recognizes the guy in the sketch. She says he lives in the East Bay and his name is such and such. And I'm only being vague because I couldn't let the name slip if I wanted to.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1701.678

It has never been released on or off the record. I mean, the one thing I will say about this investigation is like they truly have like kept identities under wrap for decades. It's almost like very impressive if I didn't want to know so bad. Now, what I do know is that it is apparently a common name. So initially, the tip isn't super useful.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1721.428

Although, to be perfectly honest, I don't even think it reaches Guilford and Sanders.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1727.614

I think so. Because the woman comes back. Like it pisses her off because like by 10 days go by, she hasn't gotten contacted. She feels like nothing is happening. So she's like, my tip must not have been taken seriously. So she calls again. Mad. And this time, she not only gives his name, but she gives his address, his age, his freaking license plate number.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1751.309

So this second message does reach Guilford and Sanders, who put the guy under immediate surveillance. They don't approach him just yet. Instead, they start putting together a profile, which seems like the right move, I think. And here's where things get wild. Soon, another tip comes in about this same guy. But your brain is going to explode when I tell you who calls this one in.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1778.687

I mean, I don't know the lady's name. I can't tell you who she is exactly, but I can tell you her profession. She is a secretary at Highland Hospital in the East Bay. Not for like a surgeon or whatever, for a psychiatrist. If she's to be believed, her boss treats the guy that Guilford and Sanders have under surveillance.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1800.396

And her boss treats him for issues relating to his inability to cope with his same-sex attractions. Oh, and spoiler alert, he straight up confessed to the murders in his sessions with the doc. Which, like, what? I know. Three days later, that doctor calls in and he's like, yeah, so you know that thing my secretary said? It's completely true.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1822.603

My patient, so-and-so, whoever he is, is the killer everyone is calling the doodler.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

183.826

And by the way, no one is thinking that this guy could have drowned or anything. He has got wounds everywhere. He was a victim of a homicide, no doubt. But here is the even stranger part. At nearly 2 a.m. when this call came in, it is midnight. It's very dark out and there isn't any lighting down by the water.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1833.974

Beyond a shadow of a doubt. Like, this is your guy. I know this is your guy for a fact.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1843.204

Yeah, they do by this point.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1849.949

Yes, question mark. So here's the thing. Outside of the reporting on the diplomat's interaction with him, where he said, like, yes, he was, answers on that are kind of hard to come by. Like, I can't find a solid answer on, like, was this guy really a cartoonist? Like, I don't know. Now, before long, Guilford and Sanders decide it's time to confront this guy that they've been watching.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1872.188

And so in January of 1976, they bring him in for questioning. He comes in voluntarily, doesn't even bring a lawyer. And while he denies being the doodler, he doesn't deny everything. Guilford tells the San Francisco Chronicle, quote, Which sounds conversion therapy to me, but, like, I could be wrong.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1909.443

Either way, this guy's description of himself couldn't fit the PERT profile more closely, which is of someone who is quiet, intelligent, middle class, and absolutely drowning in self-loathing over his attraction to men, which he probably acts on before lashing out violently with a kind of misdirected self-hatred. And here's where things get really frustrating. Even though

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1935.239

We have survivors, and even though they have a suspect, the survivors that they have won't cooperate to ID him as their attacker. They even have found a third survivor by this point, but he's a super famous actor who, surprise, surprise, wants nothing to do with the case. And this guy wasn't actually physically attacked.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1957.104

Rather, he ended the encounter, which was like a potential hookup, when a knife fell out of the guy's pocket.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1972.639

The latter. Well, maybe a little former. I know the diplomat at one point at least looks at a lineup. I don't know about the other guys. And when they finally convince him to do that, he does pick their guy out as the doodler. But he still won't be caught dead in a courtroom saying that that's the man he brought back to his apartment.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

1992.452

And that's why this case, solved in everything but name, as far as Guilford and Sanders are concerned, goes cold. Ice cold for the next four decades. And it seems that their suspect, if their suspect is their guy, gets like cold feet or whatever once he knows that the cops are onto him because the doodler killings in San Francisco just stop and they never resume again in all that time.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2020.516

It wasn't until 2018 that Sergeant Cunningham picks the investigation back up and started working it with another recently retired investigator working cold cases. This guy's name is Dan Dedette. So they have to go back and start from scratch because in the four decades that the case sat untouched, the file got moved around, it got misplaced, things got separated and whatnot.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

203.929

So when they get this body to the shore and have a minute to like take it all in, they're like, wait, what was this caller even doing out here on the beach in the middle of the night? And how exactly did he spot this body in the pitch dark? Now, it is worth noting that this beach is a common hookup spot.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2042.501

So the records they have are fragmented, they're incomplete. And I think Sergeant Cunningham almost views this as a blessing and a curse kind of thing because they're almost forced to start from square one. And I said blessing because starting from square one leads them to some surprising conclusions. Take this. The number of doodler victims is pretty well settled by this point, right?

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2067.145

There are five deceased victims and three survivors, eight people total. But they decide, you know what, we should look at all of the cold case homicides of gay men from 74 and 75. Eventually concluding that there was actually a ninth Doodler victim. His name was Warren Andrews. And at first glance, his case doesn't have much in common with the others.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2089.196

Warren was found barely clinging to life on April 27th of 1975 at this cliff overlooking the ocean called Land's End. But he wasn't stabbed like the others. He was beaten brutally with a rock and a tree branch. And even though he was found quickly, he was in terrible shape. He was in a coma for a couple of months and then eventually passed away.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2113.923

I think mostly like who he was and the location where he was found. See, Warren is thought to have been gay and Land's End is another remote hookup spot. It's also just a mile from where Harold Goldberg was found in a similar setting. And it's the cliffs that really get Sergeant Cunningham's wheels spinning.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2132.229

It seems obvious to him that whatever happened there, it didn't go down the way the killer wanted it to. It was especially messy. The victim was still alive when he was found. And the weapons the killer used seemed improvised.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2151.727

Oh, so you have you have Gerald, who was the first victim found on the beach in the water. Then you have Jay, the second victim. Then Klaus is the third. Then there was that like almost 10 month break where nothing happened. This attack on Warren was April of 75. And then May 75 was Frederick and June 75 was Harold. Got it.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2181.966

So the diplomat and the other guy who lived in his building, yes. But best I can tell, the super famous actor guy was maybe in May, although no one seems to like really know that for sure. So, yeah, I don't know if his like MO is changing or if you like because he seems like right. Like it was like usually you see the opposite.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2201.08

Yeah. Or he's just like I don't know if he's just like losing control and he whatever it is. Anyways, they're thinking that looking at the scene where Warren was found, it wouldn't be hard to imagine things going awry. Like what if the killer had intended to stab him like the others, but he somehow lost his knife in a struggle? Or who knows?

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2219.93

And Sergeant Cunningham told us it's easy to imagine the knife getting like knocked over the cliff's edge, forcing him to like think on his feet. So... Cunningham's getting his ducks in a row, right? Like setting the record straight. And as he's getting things organized, him and his partner also find that there are some items that can be sent out for testing. So they do that.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

222.806

Now, there's no one else around when they get there, but maybe that's why the caller was out there. Like, TBD who he is, who he was with. But it might be all the reason in the world not to give his name when he called this in. Who knows, right? Like, is he married? Who was he with? Blah, blah, blah. But the caller's name isn't the only thing that they're missing.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2240.717

Then they have the diplomats composite from all those years ago. Age progressed. They released that to the public along with that weird 911 call that we played at the beginning of the episode. All that comes out in February of 2019. They're hoping that someone is going to recognize that voice because up until that point, they had not released the call.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2264.16

Well, I think with the caller, like there are a couple of possibilities. Like it could be, I mean, at minimum, a really important witness. But as Detective Cunningham told us, I mean, he also very well could be the killer, which would actually make a whole lot of sense in terms of how the caller even came across that body in the dark on a deserted beach at 2 a.m.,

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2286.141

And Detective Cunningham wants to know the freaking answer. I mean, I haven't mentioned this yet, but he has already interviewed our unnamed suspect person of interest. He did that back in 2018. Because dude's still alive, obviously, and living in the East Bay now as an out gay man. But he told Sergeant Cunningham the same thing he told Guilford and Sanders all those years ago.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

23.076

And the wild part is that pretty early on, tons of people were pointing the finger at one man. Even survivors who escaped his clutches picked him out of a lineup. But to date, everyone has been too scared of what would happen to their lives if they cooperated with police. So this man is free, living among us.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2311.176

He's not the doodler. The end. even though the guy is a dead ringer for the age-progressed composite. Now, DNA might end up doing the trick and tie him to the crimes. That would be great. But they don't want to put all their eggs in one basket. I mean, who knows if they will even get a usable profile from the evidence they sent off. So they decide to think outside the box a little bit.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2335.264

Like, if they can't use any of the survivors, they decide... Maybe they can go back to that psychiatrist and start there.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2349.392

Let's run with that. I don't know why they couldn't use him in 74. I don't know if it was like, I don't think HIPAA was like a thing. And obviously they're like coming to police and telling him. I don't know. But now they want to start with the psychiatrist. Again, I don't know that they're going to like use him in court necessarily, but they're like, it's a good jumping off point.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2364.423

Let's go to him. Except there is a huge problem.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2368.906

From their files, the only name they can find for the psychiatrist is a note like scratched by Guilford that says Dr. Priest site. Cool. And for the life of them, they cannot find any record of there being a doctor priest who practiced psychiatry at Highland Hospital in the 70s. So it's like this doctor never even existed.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2402.118

Here's the thing. It's not like they can't just find someone currently working there in 2019 when they go looking. Like, the hospital has no record of this guy at all, which is, like, wild to me.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

241.329

They don't find a wallet or anything in the victim's clothes that would tell them his name either. I mean, really, they don't find much of anything at all. We asked retired homicide inspector Sergeant Dan Cunningham to describe the scene for us. He still works cold cases for the department, including this one, so it was still pretty fresh in his mind. And he was basically like, uh, what scene?

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2418.131

They have a lower-lift idea for... that also wouldn't require a warrant, right? Okay. So they're going to ask the public for help. Oh. At the beginning of 2019, SFPD announces a $100,000 reward for information leading to the doodler's arrest, and they also ask the public for their help in locating this elusive Dr. Priest. Spoiler alert, though. No dice. But it's not a dead end altogether. No.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2443.294

See, over the years, Cunningham and Dedette worked hand in hand with a reporter from the San Francisco Chronicle. And in 2021, this reporter and his PI think that they might have solved the puzzle of Dr. Priest. They come across the name of a Dr. Howard Priest, P-R-E-E-C-E. who practiced psychiatry at Highland Hospital in the 70s.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2467.435

And though Dr. Preece passed away in 2005, his daughter tells them, yeah, this doodler guy is exactly the sort of patient her dad would have treated. Sadly, she doesn't have any of his old records anymore, nor does she know where they could be if they even still exist. Now Cunningham eventually asks a court to order Highland Hospital to release Dr. Preece's records from way back when.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2495.16

But the judge denies the request, citing the fact that there is no evidence that the patient still poses a threat to the public. Says there's no indication that he's posed a threat since 1976. Which like, again, I don't know the rules around this, but to me it is like wilds.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2519.21

That's what I'm saying. Like, I don't know what rule we're following here.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2524.834

Okay, but also, what if everyone's wrong? What if he has posed a threat since 1976? See, one of the things Cunningham learns about his guy is that he actually skipped town way back in 76 and spent some time on the road, moving from place to place. So, according to the San Francisco Chronicle, Cunningham researches whether there were any other similar crimes in the years after 76 anywhere else.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2553.006

And wouldn't you know it, there were. Now, it's not totally clear, but Cunningham said that he is in touch with various other law enforcement entities about it. And he's also submitted more items for forensic testing, though so far no one has been able to isolate a profile other than the victim. So whatever victim was related to that item.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2575.096

And it's mostly because their deaths were just like so bloody brutal. But he emphasized to our reporter that he is still got high hopes on the DNA front. And there's one more conclusion that Cunningham has come to about this case that I think is wild. He's not convinced that the doodler actually did so much doodling. Ashley, we're calling him the doodler. I know.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2598.89

As far as he's concerned, that trope is more lore than fact, springing from the diplomat's story about his attacker sketching animals. And then it just kind of like took on a life of its own. And listen, I don't know where I kind of fall on this because Guilford and Sanders certainly thought the doodling angle was accurate.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2618.52

And Ron Hooperman, like Daddy Cop, working the case for the DA's office, with his own deep ties to the gay community, he remains convinced of it to this day. Ron told us that he talked to multiple people with firsthand accounts of this guy sketching men in bars and using the sketches to hit on them.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2634.344

He also told us that in the seven or eight years since the case has been reopened, he hasn't been contacted. Which I thought was kind of surprising. Like he was someone who was boots on the ground at the time and was part of the community being targeted. So I don't know quite what to make of that.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

264.705

Because, duh, the guy was like on the verge of being swallowed up by the Pacific, which doesn't leave investigators with a whole lot to work with. In the following days, they put out a couple of media requests for the caller to come forward. Maybe he could shed some more light on the circumstances around all of this. Like, were there other people on the beach?

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2650.813

But whether the doodler actually did all that much doodling, the fact remains that six men were brutally slain in 1974 and 75. And that's six that we know of. There is a strong person of interest in this case and the families of the victims still haven't received justice. These murders had ripple effects of a magnitude that is hard to comprehend. I mean, take Jay's family, for instance.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2675.787

His murder caused one of his sisters to have a full-blown psychotic break. She was convinced that his death had unleashed evil spirits somehow. And just three months later, she attacked their mother and their other sister, Melissa. And their mother was killed and dismembered. And Melissa just barely survived.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2699.157

I mean, I think so. That's what I said when you say he's not like a threat to anyone.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2707.343

But what he did, like, it still continues. Yeah. And I think I want to close out with a quote from Frederick Kappen's niece. Frederick was a talented artist and a dedicated nurse, providing care to his community day in and day out. He was also a war hero, having saved the lives of four Marines in Vietnam.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2725.537

And his niece said in a podcast series by the San Francisco Chronicle, quote, I just want my uncle to be remembered for the good he did and not to be remembered for the circumstances under which he was killed. I think all of the victims deserve that. It has been 50 years since the Doodler murders and time for justice is running out.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2747.711

San Francisco Police Department is still offering that reward, which has been raised to $250,000. And that's for anyone who can help them solve these cases once and for all. So if that is you, you can call their 24-hour tip line at 415-575-4444. or text them at TIP411, and you can remain anonymous. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2796.182

We will be back next week with a brand new episode. But don't leave us. Stick around. We have got another segment of The Good. All right, Britt. So in light of Mother's Day being this month, I heard you got a special good that has to do with Mother's Day. I haven't seen it yet.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

282.66

Was he with anyone when he found the body? Did he see anything? But whoever that guy is that called in, he either never gets the message that police are looking for him, which I find hard to believe this was going far and wide at the time, or he is intentionally laying low because he never comes forward.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2845.97

She doesn't know us. We need the long and interesting story.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2942.387

I knew it. Are they starting a club? Can I join?

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

2955.793

I kind of want to twerk, and I don't know why that's my response. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

308.396

So I kind of think those are two separate questions because I don't think he had been in the water long because he wound up there on account of the tide coming in, not because of like he was killed and put there.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

319.521

As for how long he'd been dead, what I know is that the coroner finds that he was in the early stages of rigor mortis, which like quick reminder for crime junkies, that tends to begin around two hours post-death but can take up to six hours.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

337.089

Right. The coroner also determines that their victim, who is a middle-aged white man, died from multiple stab wounds, 17 to be exact, in his chest, torso, front and back. And he went out with a fight based on the defensive wounds he has on his hand. Now, the water washed away a lot in terms of evidence. Not that they even could have done much of anything with it back in 1974.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

363.236

But what it didn't wash away or degrade were his prints. Or at least that's how I'm assuming they ended up IDing him. It never actually says that specifically, but I know he did have a prior encounter with police. So I'm thinking that maybe they had some kind of record of him. And in 74, like those records were likely just prints.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

383.681

However they do it, within a couple of days, they have determined that he is 50-year-old Gerald Kavanaugh. He's a World War II vet, originally from Canada, who at some point made his way to the U.S.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

398.787

I don't know how long this was before his death, but he'd actually been stopped in the same area where he was found before on suspicion of public sex in some nearby restrooms. And if you aren't picking up on it by now, this area where people would come to hook up, like

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

413.013

have sex in restrooms like this wasn't like a teenage lover's lane this was a spot mostly frequented by gay men we weren't able to speak with any of gerald's family or loved ones so i have no idea why he was there or who he might have been with the night that he died but i do know that the restrooms where he was suspected to have been having sex before those were actually locked at night so if he did go there on his own the night he died he was likely on the beach when he was killed

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

446.795

I don't know. Maybe. I mean, the caller could have been out there with someone else as well. But maybe the who doesn't even matter and he just didn't want anyone to know that he was out there with another man or to meet a man. Like, again, all just speculation. We may never know, again, because this caller has never come forward.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

46.571

And though some believe he hasn't been a threat since 1976 when the murders stopped, the current detective thinks that we just might not know the true scope of his crimes. This is the story of The Doodler.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

463.2

And in 1974, to be truthful, I don't think anyone really wanted to know. To put it bluntly, even in a city like San Francisco that was seen as progressive, 1974 policing didn't treat everyone as equal. And it doesn't seem like they put much effort into solving Gerald's case.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

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Like, sure, a plea or two went out to the public, but if they made any real effort to get to the bottom of things, it's never reported on. And I know from our own reporting that the gay community was very much under the impression that not much was being done.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

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So when a call comes in five months later about a body in Golden Gate Park, Gerald's death, which happened just a mile and a half away, isn't really on anyone's radar. It comes in early the morning of June 25th, and from the looks of things, it's another stabbing. The victim is fully clothed and he had been stabbed a total of five times, three times in the heart.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

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But much like with Gerald, no wallet, no ID can be located. So investigators initially suspect a mugging gone wrong, especially because there is a scene here that tells a bit of a story. CNN reports that there is a pool of blood about 10 feet from the body with visible drag marks between the two spots, leading them to believe that the man was attacked where the blood is concentrated.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

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Some kind of struggle ensued, and then the killer dragged him to the slightly more hidden spot where his body was found. And it's wild that the body wasn't found sooner, because when they canvassed the area, a resident tells them that she heard a man screaming for help a little before midnight the night before. Sergeant Cunningham told us that she did call this in, although...

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

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It's hard to tell if there was actually any follow-up because, like I said, the body isn't discovered until close to 7. Now, thankfully, investigators ID their victim quickly this time. He's 27-year-old Joseph Stevens, who goes by Jay. And it turns out he's one of the most beloved performers in the city's drag scene.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

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One of his regular gigs is at a club called Finocchio's as the master of ceremonies, no less, which has been referred to as like the birthplace of American drag.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

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Yes, yes. And OK, here's the thing, by the way, based on the available info, it is possible that Jay would identify as a trans woman today. His younger sister, Melissa, told the San Francisco Chronicle that there isn't a doubt in her mind that he would have. But whether it was a sign of the times or Jay was just a cis gay man who loved dressing in drag, the pronouns that he used were he him.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

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So like that's what I'm still going to use as well. So investigators quickly find that Jay was last seen leaving a place called the Cabaret Club in North Beach sometime before midnight on the 24th. Now, nothing suggests that he left the club with another person, but where he's found in Golden Gate Park is a hike from North Beach.

Crime Junkie

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Investigators know that he's got a car and clearly you would have needed one to get up there as quickly as they assume he did if those screams heard around midnight were him. But his car is nowhere to be found in or near the park.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

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And that's because, unbeknownst to these officers at the crime scene, Jay's car was some 45 minutes away, being hauled away after it was involved in a crime at a separate crime scene. So about two hours before Jay's body was discovered, an officer patrolling a neighborhood about 45 minutes away in a city called Hayward noticed a blue Toyota acting kind of sus.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

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There had been a string of sexual assault in the area recently, so the cop figured he should like check this out. Mm-hmm. But when he initiated a traffic stop, the Toyota peeled off and it turned into a whole high speed chase situation. But God bless dumb criminals, right?

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

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Because the driver raced over a set of railroad tracks and not at a railroad crossing and crashed right into a house on the other side. Now, the driver, a blonde 20-something, jumped out of the car, fled on foot and got away.

Crime Junkie

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But when police ran the car's place and found that it was registered to Jay, they eventually touched base with SFPD, who immediately think that they've got their killer or at least a description of their killer. Now, I don't have the exact, like, play-by-play, but one way or another, the blonde guy ends up getting ID'd and located.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

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And dude is shocked to learn that the car he'd crashed belonged to a homicide victim. He denies any involvement in Jay's death, swearing up and down that he just lifted the car from where it was parked at Golden Gate Park. And as unbelievable as I know that sounds, his story actually checks out. Seriously? He's literally just like the world's unluckiest car thief.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

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Which is a bummer for investigators because it means that their promising early lead turns into a dead end real fast. And with nothing else to go on and knowing they weren't making any connections to a larger pattern of crimes yet, it kind of feels like everyone just shrugged their shoulders and said like, oh, well, we tried.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

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Now, our team talked to Ron Huberman, who was the first openly gay investigator with the San Francisco DA's office in the 70s. And as you can imagine, he had unique insight into the tense dynamic between the gay community and law enforcement at the time. And he said the simplest way to put it was that there was a ton of hate crimes happening at the time. The murders, he said, were like next level.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

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But what he saw from the inside is that police just did not care. He also emphasized the level of tension, animosity even, that existed between SFPD and the queer community at the time. Because you've got to keep in mind that in 1970s San Francisco, morality laws were enforced.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

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Cops pose as gay men at the time to entrap actual gay men, and queer crime victims are liable to find themselves in cuffs if they go to law enforcement for help. Mm-hmm.

Crime Junkie

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I mean, that same year, 1974, a gay man settled a lawsuit against SFPD for nearly a quarter of a million dollars, which would be like $1.5 million today, after police pulled him from a car and beat him to the point of having permanent brain damage.

Crime Junkie

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I had the same question. So apparently, and this is super interesting, it had to do with the election of a DA who both sincerely wanted to integrate the gay community into mainstream politics, and maybe saw the political benefit of doing so.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

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And Ron told us that things at the police academy were kind of tense at first, but he was able to win some trainees over with a little humor, which I think came easy to Ron. I mean, OK, so literally his nickname in the gay community was Daddy Cop, which obviously was like tongue in cheek because like obviously the guy didn't take himself too seriously.

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SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

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But anyways, that was my long winded way of emphasizing that these cases were kind of thrown to the side and thought to be one offs. No one was thinking serial killer. I don't even know that serial killer was a thing that, you know, we had a word for at the time. But that changes 12 days after Jay's murder.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

901.588

That's when another man is found deceased on the beach really close to where Gerald had been found. This murder is especially brutal. The victim is another white man on the younger side like Jay, and he was nearly decapitated. Sergeant Cunningham told us one of the original investigators said it was probably the worst crime scene he'd ever worked. And that dude worked the Zodiac investigation.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

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This young man was found fully clothed, but yet again, no wallet, no ID. So it takes two weeks to ID him as a 31-year-old German national named Klaus Christmann. Klaus, investigators learn, has a family back home in Germany, like a wife and two kids. But he'd come to the U.S.

Crime Junkie

SERIAL KILLER: The Doodler

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a few months back and has been staying with friends, this American couple who lived in the Castro, which I think is like a suburb of San Francisco.

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Okay, got it. So he's become... Something of a regular at the city's gay bars. Now, investigators determined that one of those bars is actually the last place he was seen. Witnesses say he left alone at around 2 a.m. And even though Sergeant Cunningham told us that investigators found some of the men Klaus was known to have been involved with, all of them quickly get ruled out.

Crime Junkie

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So when the culprit doesn't fall into their laps quickly, police move on to other cases. Though there is finally chatter amongst them that these were maybe more than just one-offs. I mean, there's clearly a pattern between Gerald and Jay and Klaus.

Crime Junkie

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But aside from each of them being part of the queer community, like there were no other connections and no task force or anything was being put together to try and find one. And they weren't even really alerting the public to the threat of a serial killer. But even though they weren't announcing it, I mean, this is a community that already has a target on their backs.

Crime Junkie

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Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And we actually have a special guest today. If you hear a little whimpers or tippy taps or anything. Or snores. For the first time since like early days Crime Junkie, old man Chuck is in the room while we're recording. So please forgive us. But our 14-year-old man wanted to cuddle today and I'm allowing it. Totally.

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Love it. So these are supposedly some of the personal problems that Sergeant Burke is referring to. Although put a pin in that because we're going to circle back to it later. But personal problems are not. The women's families don't agree. And they are just more convinced by the day that the disappearances weren't by choice.

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And on July 14th, this is just 12 days in, that fear starts to gain traction when a brutal crime captures the attention of, well, everyone. Now, it's very different, but it involves multiple young women being held and killed at a single time by a single person and from the same area where the women are from, Chicago. So it at the time does feel worth looking into.

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And let me just give you a little like the spark notes on this case. Corky Shemoshko reports for NBC News that around 11 p.m. on the night of July 13th, a man armed with a gun and a hunting knife climbed through the first floor window of a Chicago townhouse where six student nurses were sleeping in two upstairs bedrooms. He crept up the stairs, woke up all six students.

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and corralled them into a third bedroom, binding their hands behind their back. And he spent the next few hours walking them out of the room, one by one, and killing them, one after another. Some of them by stabbing, some by strangulation, and some by a combination of the two.

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And I don't know why this next detail bothers me so much, but his victims weren't even just the six women in the house when he broke in because three more residents had the great fortune of being gone when the bloodshed started and the even greater misfortune of coming home while it was unfolding.

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Shemoshko writes that eight women were tortured and killed over like four and a half long hours that night. At least one victim was sexually assaulted, although I would wager that she probably wasn't the only one.

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It would have if one woman didn't have the right combination of courage, quick thinking, and honestly, maybe sheer luck to survive. Her name was Corazon Amaral, and seeing her last chance at survival, she actually crawled under one of the beds while the killer was out of the room.

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And from her hiding spot, she heard each of her roommates get marched out of the room, followed by what Shemashko describes as muffled cries and then silence. And somehow, he just didn't notice. Like, there were so many victims that this dude lost count. And so when Corazon crawled back out at around 6 o'clock in the morning, it was just carnage.

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Shemoshko writes that she was so traumatized and so terrified that she climbed onto the ledge of a second-story window and just started screaming. I mean, for all she knew, the killer was still inside somewhere. So once she was safe, she gave police a pretty damn detailed description of the perp, right down to his born to raise hell tattoo.

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And that ends up being the key because just two days later, a Chicago physician feels his blood go cold when he sees the same four words on a patient's forearm. This patient was 24-year-old Richard Speck. Having grown up in Texas, Speck is new to the Chicago area where he's been staying with his sister and her husband.

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But Patricia still lives at home, and she wouldn't leave for days without giving her parents a heads up. And Patricia had even told her mom Saturday, that morning when she left, that she would be home that night for dinner. And the other girls were supposed to be home too, but none of them returned to their Chicago homes just over the state line.

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And like so many killers before him, he's like, no, officers, I swear to you, you have the wrong guy. Absolutely not. Which like they absolutely do not because his prints are all over the crime scene. Shemosco reports that the assistant DA who eventually prosecutes him for eight counts of capital murder gives him the dubious distinction of being the country's first random mass murderer.

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Random being the operative word, since organized crime was definitely a thing in Chicago before this guy, but you get what I'm saying.

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So this random massacre happens to a group of women from the same area just two weeks after the Indiana Dunes women go missing. And everyone's like, hey, maybe you should look at this because you got truly at this point nothing else other than they walked away and nobody's buying that.

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ISP Superintendent Robert O'Neill is like, yeah, listen, we're checking on it, but like, don't get your hopes up. And Sergeant Burke is even blunter, saying like, there is no suggestion Speck was near, let alone at Lake Michigan the day that the women went missing. And even if he was, let's just say that in addition to not being a criminal mastermind, Speck isn't tall, dark or handsome.

Crime Junkie

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And he doesn't have resources to get his hands on a boat or even to charm or lure three victims aboard a boat. I will admit that it's a little intriguing that he worked as what the Chicago History Museum calls a quote unquote apprentice seaman. But I won't waste any of your time on him. Like at the end of the day, it is decided by all that this is just an intriguing coincidence and nothing more.

Crime Junkie

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So the next theory that comes up, it might even be more of a stretch, I guess is what I should say. And it all starts with this guy named Dick Wiley, who, according to the New York Daily News, was supposedly the first reporter on the scene the morning that the women were reported missing. Now, he only covered the case briefly. It's not like he was deeply involved.

Crime Junkie

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And within a few years of the disappearances, he quit journalism altogether and jumped into a career in law enforcement down in Florida. But he couldn't get the disappearances out of his mind. Like they became his own personal Roman empire, if you will. So Dick Wiley believes, are you ready for this? I'll answer it for you. No, you're not. He believes that the women died aboard an abortion boat.

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Wiley is absolutely certain that the disappearances can be traced back to an abortion boat.

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It's exactly what it sounds like. He says it's a boat on Lake Michigan where illicit abortions are performed.

Crime Junkie

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If you ask Dick Wiley, yes. And the theory he has behind this abortion boat is wild. Now, we know that Anne may have been pregnant and that Patricia may have been seeing a married guy, right? Well, Wiley posits, what if Anne and Patricia were both pregnant by married men?

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Svedek tells Harold, okay, listen, I'll look into it. But this uneasy feeling starts to creep in his belly because he might already know something about the missing girls, and it could be bad.

Crime Junkie

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It seems that way. Like he doesn't give any explanation other than like a what if.

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I'm not sure how or why, but basically he just says that in the course of his personal investigation, he learns that that's the situation. Now, he says that puts them both in a pickle because it was 1960 whatever. And years before Roe v. Wade gave us, you know, brief bodily autonomy before controlling women became everyone's top priority again.

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And we've already talked about what a moral stain out of wedlock pregnancies were back then. And in all seriousness, back alley abortions absolutely were a thing in 1966. Botched back alley abortions were too. So basically Wiley believes that there was this married couple operating an illicit abortion clinic in Gary, Indiana.

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For those of you who don't know, that's like on the coast of Lake Michigan near Chicago and Indiana Dunes. So like right in that area.

Crime Junkie

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I actually had the same question. Google couldn't tell me, so I reached out to the Indiana State Police. They were super-duper helpful, and they confirmed that the couple he's talking about was a real couple. Their names are known by police. But as far as the whole illicit abortion operation part of it goes, police don't know.

Crime Junkie

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They say that they have never been able to substantiate that part of Wiley's story. But the story goes that one of the women's procedures went south, either Anne or Patricia. They died. And with this being an illegal enterprise, the other two had to just be disposed of.

Crime Junkie

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You see, two days before, on Saturday, a park ranger had brought a bunch of random items into his office saying that there were things that had been left on the beach of Lake Michigan by three women who went into the water and boarded a boat around noon that day, but then never returned. How did they know that? Because there were witnesses.

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Well, OK, so supposedly that young, dark, handsome captain was actually this couple's relative. And the thought is that he escorted them to a larger boat. And remember if you like a couple of witnesses saw them on a larger boat. And the thinking is maybe like that's where the procedures happened or were supposed to have happened.

Crime Junkie

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This is the thing. We don't know. And we tried to get to the bottom of it, believe me, because all you got to do is spend a few minutes on Google to realize, like, how wide this theory has spread. Not so much in traditional reporting, more like in blogs and on web forums and all of that stuff.

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And so, of course, we thought like, OK, what better way to evaluate these claims than to go straight to the source? I mean, Dick Wiley is still alive and kicking. So we did our damnedest to talk to him about this case. Our reporter, Courtney, was like straight up giddy at the prospect of interviewing him. And she reached out to him on Facebook. She called every number she could find. No dice.

Crime Junkie

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Like there was one person she even got on the phone. We got like a very like gruff wrong number before they hang up. So all we know is that he claims to have interviewed more people more times and with more tenacity than the actual investigators, he says. And based on those interviews, this is what he has uncovered.

Crime Junkie

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But the more we dug in, the more it seems like all roads on the abortion theory just lead back to Wiley himself. Like, this man talks a big game. There is no doubt about that. But I don't know if he actually has... the work to show, like, show your math, right? Like, how did you get the answer? And I don't think he's been able to do that.

Crime Junkie

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And he supposedly had plans to publish a book on this case, like, since the early aughts. There's even an Amazon listing for it still. It's called Life and Death Through the Lens, which, and it had, like, a publication date way back in 2004, I think, except the book is not available, not on Amazon, not anywhere else in the World Wide Web that we could find. Right.

Crime Junkie

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And there's a 2012 New York Daily News interview with Wiley that references a, quote, I think it was like 120,000-word manuscript. But here we are, like, 13 years later, and that manuscript has yet to see the light of day. So if you're going to believe this theory, you just have to, like, take him at his word. And, like... I don't know.

Crime Junkie

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I think it bears emphasizing that Wiley seems to be blessed with a very active imagination. His Facebook persona, for example, is like very much a conspiracy-obsessed angry grandpa who posts like in all caps. And you know your girl loves like a good conspiracy theory. Like that's my jam. It's who I intend on being a little bit when I'm older.

Crime Junkie

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But I also don't want to sugarcoat the fact that his posts get really ugly at times, to put it mildly. And the man... specifically seems to have a mild fixation on reproductive rights in general, which I think is relevant considering his theory. And I have to give you just a little bit of context. So I printed out one of his posts. This is one of his public posts that he made on May 9th, 2021.

Crime Junkie

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There were some teenagers nearby that had seen them get onto the boat. They saw them leave their stuff. And then they alerted the ranger when they were, like, those teenagers were getting ready to go and the stuff was still there. Because it seemed like this is the kind of stuff that you, like, wouldn't, you would leave only if you were planning to come back, right?

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Literally.

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And listen, not to make this episode about Wiley or getting, like, to extreme ends of, like, either side or getting people fired up. But, like, I don't know. I'm having a hard time holding my tongue these days, you guys. I got to say, like, this inflammatory shit. Like, I think we're all over it, right?

Crime Junkie

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Like, everyone's working to divide us as a people because the truth is we're stronger together. And if we're distracted by issues like what things are called, like we can't come together on issues that matter. Like, who gives a flying ffff? what the day is called. It's not hurting anybody. It doesn't take away from me. I'm a mom. Live your own life. Worry about your own damn self.

Crime Junkie

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If it makes someone feel included, great. Why would I care? I care about things that actually affect my life, my daughter's life, like the fact that insurance companies are f***ing us over right and left and basic health care isn't considered a human right. I also don't care if it's called the Gulf of Mexico or the Gulf of America or the Gulf of f***. Whatever.

Crime Junkie

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And while we're on the topic of meaningless rhetoric intended to pit people against each other, there is even a proposed resolution in the House right now that expresses support for pro-women's health centers. Like I posted about this. I don't know if you saw it. I did. And I shit you not, it says that like these health care centers are supposed to address the needs of men. Yeah.

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Like, there's, like, the thermos, some sunglasses, lotion, those kind of things. Even more significant items, too, like cash, a purse, clothes, a pair of shoes. Like, they should have been back.

Crime Junkie

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Like women's health care should address the needs of men, who, by the way, is Wiley, is like that's who we're worried about. Right. Anyways, so I know I got a little sidetracked, but I wanted to show you who Wiley is while also saying like, Give us some perspective. And I wanted to show you who he was, but also saying, like, let's not let the thing that Wiley said take over this episode.

Crime Junkie

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Like, I swear to God, if all the comments on this episode become about Mother's Day, I'm going to quit. To bring it back to Dick Wiley, that's who he is. He hasn't shown any proof of his findings that could be verified by other journalists or police. While his theory might be one of the loudest ones on the Internet, it is not the only one.

Crime Junkie

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Because what if I told you that there is another theory out there, one that is every bit as wild, every bit as fantastical, every bit as conspiratorial. And it is the one that seems the most likely to be true. Now, to explain this theory, I need to tell you a little bit more about Anne, Patricia and Renee and their shared love of horses. I know, you're a horse girl. I'm in.

Crime Junkie

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In fact, the Chicago Tribune reports that while Patricia and Renee had been high school classmates, Patricia met Anne at the Oak Brook Polo Club, where they both boarded their riding horses, and Anne also worked there.

Crime Junkie

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In fact, at the time of the disappearances, Patricia owned a racehorse named Hank, and he was one of the biggest reasons that her dad, Harold, never bought into the idea that the women would have gone off on their own. Even if all of the other weird shit could be explained away, which it can't, so like, there's so much that doesn't make sense, Harold knew that his daughter would not abandon Hank.

Crime Junkie

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Now, at the time, the ranger wasn't especially concerned when he collected these things, though the Chicago Tribune reports that he did get a description of the boat, at least, which they said was a small boat with white exterior and a blue interior, maybe turquoise-ish blue, and it had an outboard motor.

Crime Junkie

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It wasn't possible. It was something that he said over and over and over again, including to Sergeant Burke. She would never have left that horse behind. You guys know how much I love Charlie. Charlie's like my mini horse. That's how I feel.

Crime Junkie

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You horse girls are next level, too. So anyway, so remember how I told you to put a pin in the women's personal problems? Yes. Okay. So Renee's were the marital issues that we know and was this potential pregnancy. And I think Patricia's had to do with the wide world of horse racing.

Crime Junkie

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So when her sister Janice sat with Dateline for an interview in 2023, she talked about some weird stuff going on with Patricia at the time leading up to her disappearance. Like how she was acting strangely the day before she disappeared. Scared, even. Although Janice didn't elaborate. She also described this conversation they had had recently, or like before they went missing.

Crime Junkie

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And Patricia was crying, which alone is super out of character. Now, some people are criers, some people aren't, and Patricia was not. And she told Janice that she was in a lot of trouble. Janice's mind immediately went to the married boyfriend we know that she might have had. So she asked if she was pregnant. Don't tell Dick Wiley. I know. I'm sure he already knows this.

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INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

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But according to Janice, she wasn't pregnant. That's not it. Whatever it was, was worse in her mind than that because her response was, quote, I wish it was that easy.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

21.634

And it's not going to keep me from telling you an incredible story. And that story is a mystery right out of our home state of Indiana. But listen, Brett, the circumstances of this are so foreign that I've heard this story, but it always felt so far away to me. We're talking horse mobsters, illegal medical boats operating out in open waters. There has been no case like this before or since.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

2108.165

I know. And Janice wasn't the only person close to Patricia who noticed something was off before she disappeared. A friend of hers had told Sergeant Burke's team way back at the beginning of the investigation about this weird situation in March of that year when Patricia had some sort of bruising on her face. And the friend was like... Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

221.621

They even gave the ranger a description of the driver, which they say was a tan, dark-haired young man. But listen, people leave stuff on the beach all the time, especially on crowded days like the Saturday before the 4th of July. So at the time, he just gathered the things up and dropped them in Svedek's office.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

2231.722

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

2383.297

Thank you. Thank you.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

239.992

But no one was like out manning a massive search or trying to find the owners of these items at the time. Now, everyone kind of thought that whoever it was that owned these things would eventually come looking for this stuff at some point. But now, with this phone call, a darker thought washes over Svedek. Lake Michigan is notorious for its strong, unpredictable currents.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

2445.402

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

261.806

Like, it is not outside the realm of possibility that the women, maybe even their captain too, had gone for a swim or gotten into an accident and found themselves outmatched by Mother Nature. Like... We live here. So many people underestimate Lake Michigan.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

277.518

Yeah. So once he hangs up with Harold, Svedek starts rifling through the items. He's looking for clues. And I mean, to be fair, he doesn't even know that the women who left these things were Patricia Ann and Renee. It just like to him feels too much like of a coincidence not to be. Mm-hmm. But that's the first order of business, right?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

295.686

Now, when he finds a keychain with car keys and a miniature Illinois license plate and realizes that the plate has what looks like a pretty legitimate plate number, he gets this idea. He calls a few employees, sends them out to check the parking lot near the Dunes, and sure enough, there is a car with that exact plate in the lot.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

317.56

And sure enough, when they run down the plate number with Chicago PD, Svedek gets the confirmation he needs. The car in the parking lot is registered to Ann Miller from the Chicago suburb of Westchester. Which makes this official. He has got a triple disappearance on his hands, and something of that magnitude is above his pay grade.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

339.55

So that's when seasoned Indiana State Police investigator, Detective First Sergeant Edward Burke, steps in to help the investigation. And he doesn't waste any time. One of his first moves is to go through the purse that had been left on the beach, and it turns out that purse belonged to Renee. And he knows it's hers because inside he finds this rather intriguing letter.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

360.965

Now, Ann and Patricia lived at home with their parents, but 19-year-old Renee is actually married and lives with her husband at the time. And this letter that they find was addressed to him.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

373.947

No. So they live together. I mean, I assume they see each other like on the daily, but it seems like maybe they were a couple that liked to get thoughts down on paper when they were like big things, which I think is what this was.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

384.931

Because basically in this letter, there are some issues that she brings up, like her husband spending way too much time with his buddies, tinkering with hot rods, which like... Sounds light and almost cute, but it wasn't either of those things to Renee. She even threatens to split up over this.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

400.739

But it looks like, I mean, maybe she had second thoughts about giving this to him because according to the date scribbled on this letter, it's like two weeks old by that point, like when he's seeing it. So Sergeant Burke isn't quite sure what to make of it, but he also doesn't have time to really ponder this. Feeling like Svedek might be right about the woman's fate, he calls the U.S.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

420.234

Coast Guard to search the lake near the park way at the southern end. And boy, does the Coast Guard have their work cut out for them because Lake Michigan is enormous. I said, you guys, everyone underestimates it. Lake is like not even the right word. Over 22,000 square miles enormous is how big we're talking about.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

440.416

And even if you've seen the lakes on like a map in school or geography or whatever, like it doesn't give you a sense for it.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

450.12

An ocean. I mean, you can get out there at some point and literally not see land on any side of you. It is So it's not all that surprising when they end the day empty-handed. So first thing next morning, Sergeant Burke gets a huge ground search going to complement the Coast Guard's efforts. He wants every last square inch of the park covered and also a good stretch of shoreline beyond the park.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

46.945

And that's why it's one of Indiana's most infamous cases. The workday has barely started on Monday, July 4th, 1966, when Indiana Dunes State Park, which today is surrounded by Indiana Dunes National Park, like it's like a whole thing anyways, Superintendent William Svedek is getting a panicked call on his office phone.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

474.561

It's a hell of a task, and for it, he assembles a hell of a search party. A bunch of troopers and park rangers, obviously, and even soldiers from a nearby base. Deputies from Porter County Sheriff's Office, citizen volunteers who will eventually be joined by their bloodhounds. And with the Coast Guard still at it, they're searching literally plane, train, and automobile here.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

497.757

And maybe not literally, but almost. You get what I'm saying. And by the end of the day, the searches have covered 40% of the park almost. And still, there is just nothing. Now, the Chicago Tribune reports that while the search is put on hold overnight, Sergeant Burke orders a patrol to man the shore until sunrise.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

515.364

The thinking being that, like, if the women maybe drowned, their bodies could wash up soon. And while drowning from a boating accident is only one theory, it's not at all out of the question that they also could have met with foul play. So they got to find this boat, like if they're going to know either way, right?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

533.215

And while there are some sightings of white boats with blue interiors, they don't find a boat that could have been in the area, like the boat when the girls went missing.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

551.499

They're not sure of anything. I mean, you're right. All they have to back up even this boat story, like from the beginning, is just the word from those teenagers who alerted the ranger. But I will say over the first couple of days as this goes on, like when the story starts making news, people start coming forward. They start getting some more witness tips.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

568.092

And that does seem to support the boat story. More people who say they saw the women climb onto a white boat with a dark haired, well-tanned man that day. And actually, there are even a few reports of them being seen on a larger boat, like this time with three men. And that was at some point as well, like that same afternoon. But for some reason, I think that like those are mostly discounted.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

591.828

So a few days into the search, the idea of some sort of fatality causing boat accidents starts to gain traction. But according to more reporting in the Chicago Tribune, random boat debris starts washing up on shore not far from the park. Pieces of seats, styrofoam, scraps of metal, plywood, turquoise plywood.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

612.777

And they can tell that this wreckage came from what the reporting refers to as a quote-unquote outboard motorboat. And like I said, this stuff isn't washing up hours away. It's washing up like three miles away near some sort of power plant. Now, at this time, there haven't been any reports of a missing boat, no reports of a crash or of missing or injured boaters, which some find kind of strange.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

645.823

Right. Or destroying the boat was intentional because they find something weird among the wreckage. The debris is strewn with cans of oil and gasoline. Some of the plywood is even doused in it. So it feels like something fishy is afoot.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

670.211

And yet, pretty quickly, authorities announced that the wreckage couldn't have anything to do with the missing women because there were no reports of a boating accident.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

689.119

And it only gets worse from there because the Terre Haute Star reports that soon authorities announced that the wreckage is from a rowboat, a metal rowboat.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

712.128

Yes. Right. Like it feels like there's some tunnel vision going on here because the Terre Haute Tribune reports that when investigators are asked about three different possibilities, right, so like drowning, foul play or a planned disappearance, their response is telling. They say that there is no evidence of drowning or foul play.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

736.996

Well, at first they play it coy, but by the one week mark, Sergeant Burke is like, yeah, we're pretty sure this was all orchestrated. The boat stuff too? Like they blew it up or that's unrelated still? Still unrelated. They're not even trying to make sense of the wreckage. And I get why they start doubting the drowning theory, like, maybe a little premature.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

757.684

But, I mean, they've devoted so much manpower to searching the southern end of Lake Michigan and from, like, every angle, too. They've got those ground searches, boat searches, whatever. Like, divers are even in there. And with everything, they're thinking, like, if the women did drown, like, someone should have found something by now that indicated that.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

783.723

on the fact that there's no evidence.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

790.568

I know. I feel like we've done this dance before. Anyways, the whole idea of it not being foul play because there's no evidence of foul play, to me that's bananas, especially when the one thing that might have been the evidence of foul play has been discounted, right?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

826.689

It's just... It's way less likely. Yeah. Yeah. I think mostly they think this because there start to be some supposed sightings, I guess, like near and far. One like on a bus or like in a bar or a club or whatever. And these are like miles and miles away with strange men. Sometimes they're even saying like hitchhiking, according to the Chicago Tribune.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

849.343

And all of these, like they never turn out to be legit, but investigators run each one down and they keep coming in. So I'm sure that's playing a role here. But I also suspect that it has a lot to do with the letter that they found in Renee's purse, the one to her husband. The one about the hot rods? Yeah.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

870.06

So they decided basically that she may have wanted to just skip town on account of her marital discord.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

883.835

I know. And they obviously questioned the husband, by the way. Like, he's in the clear. So her loved ones are like, okay, we hear you, but also are you serious right now? Like, she's 19 years old and her feelings were hurt over, like, something you can probably work through. Right. And that was weeks ago. Mm-hmm.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

913.752

Yeah, not maybe in solidarity. The Chicago Tribune reports that according to Sergeant Burke, all three, Anne and Patricia included, have, quote unquote, personal problems. But he wouldn't say what those are. Which isn't to say, like, we don't know what he's getting at.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

929.283

Because long story short, what we know is that Patricia's sister Janice tells Dateline in a recent interview, so, like, we find this out way later, that Patricia had been canoodling with a married man. And Anne had supposedly told friends that she was three months pregnant and might enter a quote-unquote home for unwed mothers, which is very much a thing in 1966. Yeah.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

954.358

But it is such an antiquated concept in like the year of our Lord 2025, well, at least for now, that I asked you to do some digging and give the crime junkies a quick explainer for the young folk listening. Can't know where you're going unless you know where you've been, right? So being a pregnant unwed woman in the 60s, give it to us.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

99.834

The caller IDs himself as Harold Blau, and he's like, look, my daughter and her friends were at your park on Saturday. It's Monday now, and they haven't come home. My wife and I are super worried. Now, all of these are, you know, these are three young women. Harold's daughter, Patricia, she's 19. Her friends, Ann Miller and Renee Bruhl, are around the same age, like 21 and 19, respectively.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

991.189

God forbid.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances

994.43

And where were the men who got these women and girls pregnant?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

0.569

Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And today's story, the one I have for you, is a powerful, tragic reminder that the most dangerous time in an abusive relationship often comes when a victim is trying to break free. And that sometimes the person closest to you can become your worst enemy. This is the story of Lisbeth Almon-Papoka.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1010.011

But he does remember something strange. He says that Lisbeth's white Lexus was parked in the driveway for a while on the morning of July 1st. In fact, his wife had to ask Jonathan to move the car just after 11 a.m. because it was blocking her in. And this was so odd because Jonathan and Elizabeth always parked on the street. They never parked in the driveway.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1032.908

Well, and I thought he said her car was gone when he got home. Bingo. He did say her car was gone when he got home, which is just more confirmation that they're on the right track. But they need proof, solid proof, like video footage. Now, the landlord doesn't have any.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1049.32

And as they visit neighbors, they are told again and again that cameras they have don't work or they won't let strangers just look through their video. So just as they're ready to give up, Yaneth tries one last house down the street from Elizabeth's apartment. And this resident agrees to let her check her camera that was working. And that is when they see it.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1072.248

Lisbeth's so-called missing Lexus going up and down the street twice on July 1st. Once at 5.51 p.m. and once again at 8.22 p.m. And none other than Jonathan is behind the wheel. So the moment Yeneth sees that video, I mean, her blood runs cold. And in that moment, just then, guess who drives by? Jonathan is pulling up onto the street, which is like perfect timing.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1106.227

And they're not going to play coy. Like they have proof now that he is lying to them. So they walk right over and confront him. And at first, it's like more of the same. Like, oh, she must have run off with some guy. He has no idea where she is. And then he switches it up and he's like, okay, listen. I know she's okay, but I can't tell you what she's doing. She has to be the one to share that.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1128.612

It's not mine to share. And then he changes it again. And he's like, OK, fine, fine, fine. I'll tell you the truth. Now he claims that Lisbeth went to Mexico. Now, since she's undocumented, he says that her plan was to marry someone to, quote unquote, fix her papers. But thanks to the missing persons report that they filed, now she's stuck at the border.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1152.757

And the only way he says that they can help her is by retracting that missing persons report and telling police that she's not actually missing.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

117.102

But when he got there at around 10, there was still no sign of Lisbeth. And her car, a 2007 white Lexus, was gone too. When's the last time anyone saw her? Well, Yanneth talked to her sister the night before via Instagram. And Jonathan says that he was with her in bed and then he left for work. So that was at like 3.15 in the morning. He works that like kind of overnight shift.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1171.847

I truly have no—like, I don't know what he's saying. I don't know if he's saying she's in America. I don't know if he's saying that she's in Mexico. I don't know. But he's been lying to everyone about this because— Because he says that he didn't know how to break the news to Albino that his daughter ran off to Mexico. Like, he was just so worried about Albino's feelings.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1196.915

So according to him, she did take her car at first, but then she came back because she'd forgotten something and then she needed to go meet this guy. So he says that he drove her somewhere. And where is her car now? Dude, I don't know. Like, Yanneth wants to, like, explode. Like, it doesn't make sense. And she wants to demand that he, like, sit down and actually tell them everything.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1221.989

But by now, she's seeing a pattern. Like, if she can stay calm, if she can just let Jonathan talk... Every time he does reveal something new, even if each detail contradicts the last and even if it all feels like lies, like it does feel like we're getting somewhere. So she plays along like, OK, look, you're the only one who can help us find the car. Just tell us where it is.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1249.347

And he starts naming a dozen different spots. It's in a garage. It's by a beach. It's under a tree. Until finally he levels with them. It is actually parked on the street near his relative's house in nearby New Haven.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1269.397

As East Haven Captain Joseph Mergo told us, when investigators pull up to this house on Monday, July 6th, they are stunned because right there, a mile from Jonathan and Lisbeth's apartment, is Lisbeth's supposedly missing Lexus. Now, they have a lot of questions for Jonathan's relative, the person whose house this is by.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1291.643

But this person says Jonathan never mentioned that he was leaving the car there. He just dropped it off a few days ago. And when this guy, his name's Carlos, when he asked Jonathan why, Jonathan claimed that he couldn't fit the Lexus at home because he was already working on a few cars and he didn't have room in the yard for it. But like. Hi. That's a lie. It's a lie.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1310.708

Police know that's a lie because when they'd been by to speak with him before, there were no other cars in the yard. Now, Carlos may be cooperating, but it's not like he's totally on their team. Because again, like this is his cousin. And guess who Carlos called at some point? While the officers are still on the scene, Jonathan rolls up. Totally.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1332.415

Totally unannounced to just like help fill in some of the gaps, you know, make sure they have like the right narrative. And Jonathan admits he is the one who drove the Lexus there on Thursday, July 2nd, and that he lied about it being missing. And he claims that he was embarrassed that Lisbeth had left him to go to Mexico to start this new life. So, yeah, he knows that he's lied about the car.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1354.88

He knows that it looks bad, but he's like, it doesn't really change anything. Not really, because the bottom line, he says, is that she left first. on her own, and she's totally fine. So police tow the Lexus to headquarters and the next day they do an emergency ping on that 727 number, the one that was texting them saying Lisbeth, which, by the way, like so weird, no one's called them back.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1378.265

And oh, also super weird. It's not a number that is registered to a specific person like a landline or cell phone would be like something where you would go through a provider. No, this is registered to a pinger, which is one of those apps that lets you basically get a free phone number. Hmm.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

139.195

So it hasn't been that long that they've gone without talking to her. But Yanneth knows her sister's world revolves around Astrid. Mm-hmm. There isn't a world where she would just leave her alone, especially since Yaneth is always available to babysit. Again, that's what she was kind of expecting the call to be. Right. So Jonathan also says that Astrid isn't the only thing that she left behind.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1392.791

But like any level of pseudo stealthness ends here because the account is registered to Jonathan with the email address Jonathan Jarrah 2020. His full name is Jonathan Jarrah Akupina, by the way. So like real brilliant here. So they decide it's time to look harder at the last place Lisbeth was known to be, which is the apartment. And Jonathan agrees to let them take a look around.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1419.686

He even hands over his and Lisbeth's phones along with her laptop. He also goes to the station for another interview. And this time around, he refers to Lisbeth as his ex-wife. Oh, yeah. And he says that he knew she wasn't happy. He knew she wanted to leave him. She'd been struggling with depression, he says, and they've been having problems.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1439.74

And he admits that he had been unfaithful, but says that she was also seeing other men. And in fact, they had discussed the possibility of having an open relationship at some point. And she mentioned, he says, wanting to visit various guys in Mexico. And he says that their daughter even told him that Lisbeth wanted to marry someone else.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1458.12

But he swears he never laid a hand on Lisbeth, despite what her family might think. And actually, he claims she was the one who got physical during that fight a few months back, that she hit him, and that's how she hurt her arm and hand.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1478.521

I mean, he's like he's shocked. He's totally stunned. He had no idea like how it's even possible. Maybe someone set it up under his name using an old email address that was his, which like I don't know if they were able to subpoena the records before talking to him. But like old email my ass. It's the year 2020.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1496.044

Like you're telling me Jonathan Jarrah 2020 was not from 2020. Like, OK, my guy. But it gets even better or like, I mean, honestly, it gets even worse because over the next few days, he keeps denying any connection to that number. Even after police discover that it was last used from an IP address that matches his home Wi-Fi.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1519.759

She's like texting everyone from the bathroom that she's hiding in. Again, he's like, I has no explanation. He just insists it is not him. The only way to break this guy is basically to catch him dead to rights in the lie. So they walk away from that interview to go gather information. They do another search of his house.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1540.492

They get more cell phone records, including from Pinger, showing that the account with the 727 number was created at 10.38 a.m. on Friday, July 3rd, which is right after, yes, Albina told Jonathan to meet them so they could go report her missing. I was going to say, the text came through at 1040? I know, and exactly two minutes before Yaneth got that first text from Lisbeth.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1565.629

So Captain Mergo and another investigator sit down with Jonathan that Saturday evening, and they are gravely aware that no one has seen or heard from Lisbeth, the real Lisbeth, by this point, for 10 days. And East Haven PD actually gave us a clip of that interview.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

161.763

Her phone is still there. So he's like, I can't even try and call her. But even though her phone is there, along with her car, some other things are gone, like her purse, her passport, some clothes, and apparently $10,000 from their safe. Oh, that kind of sounds like she left on purpose. Yeah. Or at least there's like some clear signs of that.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1618.959

Now, Jonathan doesn't have an answer to that. And as he goes through everything he remembers about July 1st, his story changes again. He still claims that her white Lexus was gone when he got home at around 10 a.m.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1634.566

He says that he went inside, looked for Lisbeth, couldn't find her, noticed her passport and purse were missing, and then his daughter pointed out that mommy's phone was still there, so he thought that she might have just gone to the store. But now he's saying he went back outside at this point and lo and behold, Lisbeth's car is just like there.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1706.527

Police actually have another ace in the hole. They had pulled surveillance footage from the elementary school right next to Jonathan and Lisbeth's apartment, which gives them a clearer view of their road. And the footage from July 1st shows that when Jonathan got home that morning, he parked on the street right behind Lisbeth's white Lexus. And it was there the entire time.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1730.305

The only person moving it around was him. And he was doing some more sketchy stuff. So he moved it into the driveway for about an hour and then took it over to the school parking lot later that afternoon. And there... In full view of the camera, he pulled out a can of air freshener and is like spraying it all around the trunk. But even with this video evidence, he still won't come clean.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1793.8

After that, Jonathan decides that he wants a lawyer. Interview's over. But investigators know that they're on the right track now. Everyone they talk to says Elizabeth would never leave her daughter. And they confirm that she, of course, didn't go to Mexico. There has been no activity on her passport.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1811.667

So over the next few days, they start piecing together Jonathan's movements through witness interviews, phone records, cell tower data, and surveillance footage from a dozen locations. And they find out that on the night of Tuesday, June 30th, Lisbeth and Jonathan were in an hours-long argument via text. Lisbeth was home while Jonathan was kind of coming and going from the apartment.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

1836.871

And what they learned is that at 9.09, he left to run an errand. He's back by 9.17. But instead of going inside, he like sat in the car while this like text fight continued. And in this, Lisbeth told him it was over, that if he ever saw her and their daughter on the street, like he should walk the other way. She was that done. Mm-hmm.

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Yeah. So Yaneth wonders if her sister maybe just needed some space. And so she asked Jonathan like the obvious question. Did you guys have a fight? And he admits like, yeah, we did have this like little argument the night before, but it wasn't serious. We kissed. We made up before bed.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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And she told him that the last 10 years had been like a nightmare for her and she just wanted to forget that he existed. And on his end, he, in these text messages, is mostly begging her not to leave, saying that he wouldn't walk away if he saw them, like Astrid was their baby. All that time, he was still just outside in the car.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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And then at 12.50 in the morning, so this is now Wednesday, July 1st, he finally gets out and walks to the house. Now, police can't see him go inside. The school cameras are set in like the rear parking lot facing the street with like trees blocking the house itself. But cell tower data places him in that area for over two hours.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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Until he is seen on video leaving their house for his UPS shift at 3.18 a.m.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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No, no. So because of the camera angle, they can't. But what they're assuming is that he must have gotten Lisbeth in there somehow.

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Mostly because of that, like, air freshener. Yeah, in the trunk. Now, when investigators search the Lexus, cadaver dogs do alert on that exact spot in the trunk. So they are sure that Jonathan killed her, placed her in the trunk, disposed of her. But the problem is he's not talking anymore. And they're still missing the most crucial piece of evidence of all, Lisbeth's body.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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But as detectives lay out Jonathan's cell tower location points on this map, this clear route starts to emerge. They see that on July 1st, he spent most of the day at home before dropping Astrid off at Yeneth's at around 4 p.m., He takes his own car for that, a blue Chevrolet Cruze.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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But when he gets back home, he took Lisbeth's Lexus out for some errands, including a stop at a local Home Depot, where he bought a shovel and a hoe. So part of a murder kit. Got it. Or a disposal kit, at least. Yeah. So later that night, after 10, he drove the Lexus a few miles to the restaurant where he works.

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And surveillance footage from surrounding businesses shows him pulling up to the dumpsters in the back corner of the parking lot. Now, the restaurant, this is interesting, was actually closed because the owner was on vacation. So it was like nice and quiet, not a whole lot of traffic. And of course, Jonathan would know that. He works there. He works there, exactly.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

2008.997

Anyways, now once he's in the parking lot, you can't see what he's doing. But he was there for nearly an hour and a half. And he's on camera visiting that exact same spot again a week later. So the problem is by the time police get a search warrant for that area, it's July 15th. We are two weeks to the day out from Lisbeth's disappearance.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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The thing is that Yanneth is pretty sure that's not the full story because Lisbeth and Jonathan have been together for over a decade since they were in high school. And though she was private, Lisbeth had confided in her sister about some issues that they had. And honestly, some issues is an understatement. Their relationship was straight up toxic.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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Now, the parking lot is partially fenced in, but in the back of it where Jonathan was like skulking around, it butts up against this densely wooded area. So investigators like brace themselves for a full scale search, but they don't actually have to go very far. Right behind the dumpsters, something that catches their eye is this door laying flat on the ground.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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When they lift it, they see disturbed dirt beneath. And almost immediately, the cadaver dogs start picking up the scent of decomp. And as they carefully dig, the smell just intensifies. And soon, they uncover this bundle wrapped tightly in a blue fleece blanket held together with clear tape. And it has long black hair sticking out from one end. And they know that they have finally found Lisbeth.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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Now, before police even reach Elizabeth's family to notify them of the discovery, Yaneth starts hearing rumors through the media that a body has been found. But she doesn't necessarily know the details, and she is still just like clinging to this hope that it isn't her sister.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

2104.129

And even after her father and stepmom show up later that day with detectives and a priest, like warning her to brace herself for what will likely be bad news, she's still holding on. But the next day, investigators show her photos of the victim's tattoos to help with identification. And that awful realization just like hits her. She is never going to see her sister again.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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And the only thing her family can hope for now is some sort of justice. Now, when she is taken for autopsy, the medical examiner determines that Lisbeth died from homicidal asphyxia. And he also finds non-fatal blunt force injuries from what was likely a struggle. She's got a bruise on her upper arm and another on her lower back.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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So investigators did consider others like Jose, who really was her old high school friend that she was supposedly dating at some point. But with everything pointing to Jonathan, like, come on. Now, Yanneth expects him to be arrested at any moment. Like, again, come on. But days pass. And then weeks. And it doesn't happen. He is still a free man.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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And despite that notarized letter, which, you know, you pointed out like doesn't do much, he still has rights as Astrid's father. So he's able to have supervised visits with her, visits that take place at Albino's house.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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I feel like it would almost be like you're living in an alternate reality.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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Yes. And the only real solace for Yeneth is the overwhelming local support that she receives. Like she starts working with advocates to raise awareness about her sister's story and about domestic violence as a whole. Now, Jonathan doesn't have any record for abuse against Lisbeth. The fight that they had in May wasn't reported.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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Like, she caught Jonathan cheating multiple times. They had broken up, reconciled more than once. Like... Over and over again, she stayed for their daughter, even though he wasn't exactly a doting father. And things had only gone from bad to worse recently.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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He does have a felony conviction for assaulting a police officer, which, like, details are sparse on. But according to a Hartford Current article, that thing happened when he was 18 after crashing into a cop on a motorcycle. We don't know of any other incidents. But this is the thing, just because there aren't things on record doesn't mean that they didn't happen.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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Like domestic violence is one of law enforcement's biggest blind spots because many of these incidents never even reach police. And when they do, they rarely get the attention that they deserve.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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There was actually this study done by the National Library of Medicine that found that Black women and Latina women like Lisbeth are more likely to encounter neglectful or even hostile responses when they seek help. And for Hispanic victims, there are often extra hurdles like language barriers or fear of deportation if they're undocumented like Lisbeth.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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And the longer her homicide investigation drags on without an arrest, the more speculation there is that her case isn't a priority because of her nationality. But Captain Mergo told us that there was a lot happening behind the scenes that investigators can't share publicly.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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Like, at the time, they were working with multiple agencies, gathering warrants for more digital data, things like phone records, surveillance footage, and Google searches. Evidence even from the Lexus goes to the FBI lab for testing, including a single blue fiber found in the trunk that ultimately matches the blanket that Lisbeth was wrapped in.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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And they did an analysis of the air freshener can, and they found that Jonathan could not be eliminated from being a source of the DNA on it. And they also learned that on the afternoon of July 1st, less than 12 hours after he says he last saw Lisbeth in bed, Jonathan was on Facebook Marketplace trying to trade her car for a pickup truck. Yeah.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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And in August, they get a new chilling detail from Astrid herself. She tells her family and later an FBI agent that when she woke up that morning and her mom wasn't in bed, she was searching, like, in the apartment. But for some reason, she couldn't get into her own room because the door was locked. And according to her, like, that wasn't a thing. That had never been locked before.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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So back in May, this is just a couple of months before, Yeneth had planned this cookout and her sister was supposed to come with Astrid, but they didn't end up going. And Lisbeth said that she didn't feel well, but the next time Yeneth saw her, her arm was in a sling and her shoulder was really swollen. And three fingers on her left hand were bruised, like almost purple.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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And then when her dad got home, he didn't even go look for her mom. Instead, he just started cleaning. Like, that was the first thing he did.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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So the theory, according to Captain Mergo, is that after Jonathan killed Lisbeth, he likely stashed her body in their daughter's bedroom, locked the door so Astrid wouldn't go in when she woke up, and then later he backed the Lexus into the driveway to load Lisbeth's body into the trunk.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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And in fact, they find out that while it was parked there, Jonathan did nearly three dozen web searches on how to fold down the backseat.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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And listen, it isn't the police. Like, they agree with you. But I guess the state's attorney's office didn't because as detectives share their findings with them, they keep hearing like, you're close, but like, go back, get more, chase down more leads, verify additional details and more. In the time that they kept getting sent back, they worried that Jonathan was going to skip town.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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So they actually put him under surveillance. Because, you see, even though he lived in the U.S. since childhood and can legally work here, he was still an Ecuadorian citizen. And at the time, Ecuador had a strict ban on extraditing its citizens to the U.S. So if he made it back there, he would almost be untouchable. But when they...

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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end up putting eyes on him, they were surprised to find that he wasn't running, like, far from it. He was just going about his life as if nothing had happened. So he thinks he's in the clear. That's what he believed, yeah. The good news is, he is wrong. On Sunday, December 27th, police have Albino set up a meeting with Jonathan at a diner in New Haven.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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And Jonathan thinks that he is going to see his daughter at this meeting. But instead, this is when he is finally arrested for the murder of Lisbeth. And for investigators, putting the cuffs on Jonathan feels like a win. And for Lisbeth's family, it is a huge relief. Like no more sharing Astrid with the man who took her mother from Astrid and all of them.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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But that relief is short-lived because now they face an entirely new battle, which is the legal system. So Jonathan pleads not guilty and he is sent to jail on a $2 million bond to await trial. But according to community organizer Vanessa Suarez, who has been supporting Lisbeth's family, prosecutors aren't exactly confident taking this to a jury still.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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Like, they even consider at some point reducing the charge to voluntary manslaughter because they're worried that they might not be able to make that murder charge stick. Wow. Why? What more do they need? I don't know. An eyewitness, I think. I think they want a confession, something that isn't circumstantial, I guess.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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And your DNA on the air freshener, yeah.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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Like what's actually happening? I'm with you. Like, believe me. But from the prosecutor's perspective, like taking it to trial, it's always a risk.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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But this seems like not as much of a risk. So they end up going back and forth with the defense. They're like debating possible deals. Right. But through this whole time, like, Lisbeth's family is firm. They're like, anything less than a murder charge would diminish what happened to Lisbeth. And they're not willing to accept that.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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And Lisbeth said that she and Jonathan had gotten into a fight. But Yaneth told our reporter Nina that sometime after that, she noticed this shift in Lisbeth. Like Lisbeth seemed done this time, like done for real. She was looking for a job. She was reconnecting with her love of art by designing stickers and decals, hoping to turn that creative outlet into a business and gain some independence.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

2611.27

So the long and the short of it is that with delays from COVID and all the negotiations, it is not until February of 2024 that both sides reach an agreement. Facing 60 years in prison, Jonathan pleads guilty to murder. And in exchange, he is sentenced to 25 years with immediate deportation once his time is served. Now, for Elizabeth's family, 25 years is grossly inadequate as a punishment.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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They, along with advocates like Vanessa, have been very vocal about the larger issue that her murder brings to light. Vanessa told us, like, too often when women go missing or are found dead, they don't get the urgency or attention that they deserve.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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And while there is this huge pressure on victims to report abuse, society needs to step up and create better systems of support for cases of gendered violence. We know how widespread this issue is. According to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, an estimated 47,000 women and girls worldwide were killed by an intimate partner or family member in 2020 alone.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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And that is an average, when you think about it, of one every 11 minutes. So like to put it in perspective, by the time our crime junkies finish this episode, approximately four women and girls will have lost their lives.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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I know. I know. But there are lessons to be learned from every tragedy. And that's actually why Captain Mergo reached out to us, hoping that we would share Lisbeth's story. He believes that it shows how real the dangers of intimate partner violence can be and the lengths that abusers will go to manipulate and to control even after death.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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From the beginning, exactly. I mean, it took an all-hands approach. I mean, Elizabeth's family pushing for answers, diligent police work and technology like digital forensic evidence and surveillance footage, all of it to finally reveal the truth like piece by piece. But not every victim has loved ones that are determined to fight for justice or have the ability to.

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Like, not every department is willing or able to go deeper. Too often, these stories end before they ever begin. And no one should have to face abuse alone. Help is available, and we've included resources in our show notes if you or someone you know needs support. And please make sure to take any signs of abuse seriously, no matter how small they might seem.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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I mean, it can be so hard to see the full picture, especially when you love someone and you want to believe that things will get better. But if you are in an abusive relationship, the focus should be on your safety and your well-being rather than waiting for or like betting on the abuser to change. Because sometimes the risk is greater than anyone could have ever imagined.

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You can visit our website for all of the source material for this episode, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.

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We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

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And just a couple of days before all of this, on June 29th, Lisbeth even put in a rental application for an apartment in Yeneth's complex, planning to move there as soon as possible without Jonathan. Now, as far as Yeneth could tell, Lisbeth was ready to end things for good this time. And had Jonathan realized that? Yeah, she'd made it clear to him. Okay.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

310.031

But whether he understood how serious she was, I don't know, right? Like they've done this like back and forth thing before. Right. So as Yanneth's talking to him, she has all of this like history running through her mind. But she's still not panicking. Not yet. The leaving her daughter behind does not make any sense, like, any way you cut it.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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But other signs point to her getting away just for a minute. So Jonathan and Yanneth make arrangements for her to watch Astrid so he can go looking for Lisbeth. And, of course, the second they're alone, Yanneth starts doing what we would do. She's, like, asking Astrid questions. I mean, Astrid's seven. She's old enough to know kind of what's going on. So, like, did you hear your parents fighting?

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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Do you have any idea where your mom went?

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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And Astrid says that her mom took her to bed in her, Elizabeth's room the night before. And she was there when Astrid fell asleep. But then Astrid said when she wakes up, her mom is just gone. And her side of the bed was already made. But Astrid doesn't remember any arguments. She doesn't remember any strange noises, like nothing woke her up in the night.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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And while she doesn't seem frightened, she is acting sort of odd. Like she's looking around Yanneth's apartment with almost this intense focus. And then she tells her aunt that she's going to be living here now. Wait, that Astrid is going to be living there with her aunt? Yeah. And she's like taken aback. Like she doesn't know what it means, but she doesn't even really dwell on it at first.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

398.455

So a few hours pass. And it's weird because there's just no word even from Jonathan. So Yanneth eventually calls him to check in. And he says he's talked to a couple of Lisbeth's friends. No one knows anything. And then he's like, well, I'm going to go do some laundry now.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

419.012

Even if you are, it's strange because to Yanneth, he doesn't seem at all worried. So Astrid ends up staying the night with Yeneth, almost like the first sign of this self-fulfilling prophecy. And the next day is an even harder one because the next day actually is Lisbeth's birthday. Now, this is when Jonathan finally shows back up, but he's not there to pick up his daughter.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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He's dropping off groceries, like a lot of groceries, as if he is planning on Astrid staying with Yeneth for a while. So Yanneth sits him down and presses him for information. And that's when Jonathan starts painting a troubling picture of Lisbeth. He says that she just hasn't been herself lately, that she's been severely depressed.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

464.911

She's been drinking a lot, smoking weed, even seeing other men, specifically a guy named Jose that they knew from high school. And in fact, Jonathan says that he's trying to track down where Jose lives to see if maybe she's there with him. Because as far as he's concerned, you know, the reason he's like, I'm not worried is he thinks Elizabeth isn't in danger.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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She must have just run off with some guy. And Yanneth knows Elizabeth has been struggling, but everything else he's saying doesn't line up with the sister that she knows. Jonathan's making himself out to be almost like the victim here, saying that he doesn't know what he did to deserve this. And he's wondering about how he's going to care for her.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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Yeah. And the more he talks, the more uneasy Yeneth feels. And that's when she realizes it's time to tell their dad, Albino, what's going on. Now, Lisbeth and Albino aren't super close. You see, Lisbeth and Yaneth grew up in Guerrero, Mexico. And when their parents moved to the U.S. in 2001, the girls actually stayed behind with their grandparents. But their parents split.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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Their mom basically kind of bowed out of their lives. And they didn't join Albino in Connecticut until around 2010. That's when Lisbeth was 16. So there was like a lot of formative bonding years that were missed. And rebuilding that relationship had been tough. But at the end of the day, Lisbeth is still his daughter.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

55.342

It's Wednesday, July 1st, 2020, and Yanneth Allman's phone rings with a call that she's not expecting. On the other end is her sister's longtime boyfriend, Jonathan. Now, in all the years that she's known him, Jonathan has only ever called her for one thing, like to arrange child care for their daughter, Yanneth's seven-year-old niece. But this isn't one of those calls.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

553.438

So he comes over while Yeneth and Jonathan are still there, still talking this out. And when he hears what's going on and he hears Jonathan's version of events, Albino can't shake the same feeling Yeneth has. Like, none of this makes sense. But there's a new detail now that Jonathan adds. He insists that Lisbeth actually did take her phone with her.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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He says not her regular cell phone, but one of those like phones that only works on Wi-Fi. So Albino's like, OK, I need to see this for myself. That night, he makes Jonathan take him back to their apartment and he checks all over inside. But there's like nothing weird, no sign of a struggle, no damage, no strange smells, no clues at all even about where Lisbeth might have gone.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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So the next morning, this is now Friday, July 3rd, Albino drives by their place again just to see if anything has changed. There's still no sign of Lisbeth or her car. And that's when he decides it's time to bring in law enforcement. So he calls Jonathan, who agrees to meet them at Yeneth so they can all go to the East Haven Police Department together. But this is when things get really strange.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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So within minutes of that call to Jonathan, at 10.40 a.m., Yanneth's phone buzzes with messages that stop her in her tracks. Okay, so the incoming texts are from a number that Yeneth doesn't recognize with a Florida area code. Again, they're in Connecticut. So the area code is 727. And the person who's sending these texts are claiming to be Lisbeth. But they're written in Spanish.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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Now, I wrote out what the rough translations are that I'm going to have you read. Okay.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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So she gets these and does the immediate thing that I would do. She hits the call button and tries to get this person on the phone who's claiming to be Lisbeth. She waits. She waits. The phone rings and it rings and it rings. That timing, it feels so coincidental. Way too coincidental. Yeah, no one is picking up on the other end. And when Jonathan arrives, he's like, oh, guess what I just got?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

704.974

I got these texts from Lisbeth, too. And he says that she basically told him she wasn't happy with him, that she wanted a fresh start, and that someday after she gets her life together, she's going to come back for Astrid. And while the text might have set off all the, like, sister Spidey senses, Jonathan is just like, well, now we know what happened. Like, nothing more we can do here.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

724.632

Let's just keep, like, living our lives. Certainly no reason that we need to, like, get the cops involved. Like, right, folks? No, absolutely wrong. Yeah. So her dad and her sister are more convinced than ever that they need to go to the police. And they do get Jonathan back on board with that plan. He just wants to do one thing first.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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Like, can I real quick sign over custody of Astrid to Albino and Yaneth? I guess he's worried that going to the police will trigger a report to the Department of Children and Families and he doesn't want them to take Astrid away. So to him, signing over custody seems like the safer option, which like I would say you have experience with stuff like this.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

77.461

I mean, right off the bat, Jonathan asked her if she knows where her sister Lisbeth is because he says she's fully just like MIA. And she's left their daughter Astrid at their East Haven, Connecticut apartment alone. And again, she's seven. In fact, it was Astrid who alerted him to Lisbeth's absence in the first place.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

770.864

The short answer is no. Something like that requires a court order. He says he wants to basically just get like a notarized letter or something, which again, like not how it works. But they do. They go. They do that. And it feels weird to everyone. But they have bigger concerns on their minds that afternoon.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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So they do this, then they go to the police, and then they sit down with an East Haven officer who asks Jonathan to walk him through everything. And he gives them the same story. And while there are no new details, there are a couple of interesting takeaways. Even though him and Lisbeth aren't married, he keeps referring to her as his wife.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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And he just completely leaves out everything about the text that he supposedly had gotten from her.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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Right. Now, luckily, Yeneth's there, too. And she's like, oh, by the way, like, show him the messages that she supposedly sent you. I'll show you the messages she supposedly sent me. So he shows the officer the messages and the officer tries calling the number himself, just like Yeneth did.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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He doesn't get an answer, but he leaves a message asking Lisbeth to contact East Haven Police Department when she gets the message.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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I don't either. So while the officer waits for that callback, he ticks the basic like missing person boxes, like checks the hospitals, enters her information into their system, enters her car information into their system, into like their state database.

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MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

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But during the next couple of days, it doesn't sound like much else happens on law enforcement's end. Although I know that a cop does go by Jonathan's to speak with him at least once. Maybe they were thinking that Lisbeth would come back on her own. I don't know. But her family isn't going to just sit around and wait.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

876.07

They, along with Jonathan, start driving around, looking every place they can think of for her or her car. They check beaches, train stations, motels, everywhere and anywhere they can think of. And all the while, they can't help but notice that Jonathan still doesn't seem very worried. And that only ramps up Yanneth and Albino's suspicions. He was the last person to see her.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

901.085

If he doesn't know where she is, then who does? Every possible scenario is running through their heads, each one worse than the last at this point.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

920.103

I don't know. I don't know if you could call them close. I mean, they weren't all best friends. But, I mean, in the beginning, everyone liked him. He and, you know... hung out because of Lisbeth. Like he seemed respectful, responsible. He was working two jobs. I mean, he had the one at UPS. He had another one at a local Italian eatery.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

935.752

But Yaneth has seen, or at least she's had exposure to his manipulative side over the years. So I think their like perception of him changed a little bit. Like he would barely help with Astrid. But the minute Lisbeth tried to pull away, he would use her, Astrid, as like a ploy to reel her back in. And even during the, like, good times, Yaneth noticed Lisbeth never seemed truly happy with Jonathan.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

96.883

I guess when she woke up, she realized that mom wasn't there and she called him. That was at like 9.15 in the morning, just as he was kind of wrapping up his shift at UPS. And he said he really didn't think much of it at first. Like he thought maybe Lisbeth just stepped out for a minute. So he kind of was just, you know, assuaged her concerns, you know, finished his shift, headed home as usual.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

961.504

There was always, like, a missing spark. But even with everything she knew, including their recent physical fight, Yaneth said that she never imagined that her sister might be in real danger around him. But now that has all changed. So by Sunday, July 5th, Albino and Yeneth decide to conduct their own search. So while Jonathan is at work, they head to St. Andrew Avenue where he and Lisbeth live.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca

989.535

Their duplex is at the end of this dead-end road right next to an elementary school. Now, Lisbeth and Jonathan are on the bottom floor and their landlord lives upstairs. So that's actually where they start. And the landlord tells them that he didn't hear anything unusual that night that she disappeared or in the early morning hours. No commotion, no loud noises.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

0.575

Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And back by popular demand, we have Chuck in the studio today for our YouTube audience, who apparently he's their favorite. Of course. It's a good thing he can't talk or we'd be out of a job. But the story I have for you today is one...

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

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Right. It's personal.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1027.136

It feels like someone they know, which you can see why investigators are pretty eager to speak with John. Now, when he'd initially phoned that welfare check in, they didn't know yet what they had on their hands. They basically just told him, like, Hold, please. Like, not literally, but they had to, like, send someone out to the house, check things out, whatever.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

103.044

Honestly, I didn't think about that the whole time I was working on this story. It's all I can think about. I had to say something. Mr. Feeney. Not that Mr. Feeney. Got it. Anyways, the school knows where he's at and why, so it's strange that they're calling.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1044.504

So John was left to his own devices for the next few hours while the deputies made it to the scene. Investigators tried to figure out what they were dealing with. And John later tells investigators that in that time, he was frantically calling and fielding calls from his and Cheryl's loved ones. But the bottom really fell out, he says, at noon.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1063.419

Because that's when a friend of his, this fellow science teacher, showed up at his hotel door looking confused. Like all kinds of shook. And the guy said that like, listen, I'm not sure, but I think I just saw your house on the news. And this guy offered to stay with John while he waited for more information. And before long, the phone rang and it was John's father with the worst news possible.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1086.96

Now, when John heard that his family was gone, he says he just fell to pieces. And he later tells reporters with the Springfield News Leader that he remembers reciting prayers. And the teacher friend tells Ann Roderick Jones that John kept saying over and over again, like, this can't be, this can't be.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

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And another friend who joined them in the hotel room had to remind him to just like take deep breaths, like breathe. So once they find out, the men immediately hit the road for Springfield.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

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And when they get to the local highway patrol outpost for John's first interview, his mom meets him outside for this like tear-soaked hug and then walks him in where investigators question him about his weekend. Now, they know he was out of town, but they only have the broad strokes. They need details. So John says that Saturday, this is the last day he was with his family, it was uneventful.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1139.57

He didn't have to leave for the conference until later that day, so he hung out with the kids in the morning while she ran some errands. They had lunch together when she got home, and then he did yard work before hitting the road in his red Mustang convertible.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

115.295

So immediate bad vibes that just get worse when he calls them back and finds out that they called because they had gotten a call that morning from a medical center where his wife Cheryl works as an RN. She's the team lead for the gynecological surgical division, which is like an important role, but she just hadn't shown up for work that day.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

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Now, when he got to town, he says that he and a fellow teacher that he sees at these conferences a lot named Pam grabbed dinner together just somewhere within like driving distance of the resort. Dinner was dinner, nothing wild. And after they were going to go to this like pre-conference party at the resort. But on the way back, he got into a little trouble.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1171.291

As 30-something men who drive red Mustang convertibles are wont to do, seems that John had a little bit of a lead foot because he and Pam got pulled over and he got a ticket. Now, because of weird laws that I'd actually never heard of before, the patrol officer actually confiscated his driver's license, like the physical thing.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1189.646

And apparently it's something that they can do with drivers who live more than 50 miles away. So like point being, you don't get your license back until you've paid your fine. So by the time they're done with this cop, John says he's got a headache. Plus, he's got to deal with this whole ticket thing now. So like no party for him. He parts ways with Pam. He heads back to his hotel room.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1209.557

And when he got there, he called Cheryl, which he says was their routine. He'll call home like the first day he gets anywhere to confirm he's arrived safely. Just like chat, see how the day was. And she even picked up. They spoke. Normal conversation. But that would be the last time he gets her on the phone. When they hung up, he left the resort again.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1228.285

He headed to the Osage Beach Police Department to pay for the ticket. And according to the police, he was there around 10.30 p.m. or so. So he forks over the money, gets his license back, and then he went back for good this time to go to bed at his hotel room.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1242.278

And he says he was in his room all night, slept there, didn't leave until late Sunday morning when he played golf with some colleagues sometime before noon. After that, there was a conference session followed by lunch, another session at four. John actually led that one. He called home around five just to check in. No one answered. Again, hadn't worried him too much at the time.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1262.682

Cheryl was solo managing two kids. One of them was sick, by the way, so like extra hands full. And John went to a conference social event Sunday night and then worked with some colleagues on a presentation that they were giving Monday morning. He tried to reach Cheryl again around 11 p.m. Sunday. Again, no answer. Also, very late. Knew Cheryl had work early the next morning.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1284.28

Everyone was probably in bed. And then Monday rolled around. And before he knew it, he was getting a call from his school. So investigators like know his timeline now and they kind of shift their questioning and they ask about his and Cheryl's marriage, how it started, how is it now, like that kind of thing. So they met in 1978 at a trauma center.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1304.158

Cheryl was in nursing school and worked there as a receptionist and John worked there as an attendant on the weekends. And according to John, they kind of made eyes at each other for a while, but their romance really began when Cheryl asked him to dance at a co-worker's party.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1318.465

And for John, this was a big deal, like the dancing part, because his dad was a preacher in the Church of Christ, which had a strict no dancing policy in those days. I mean, I've seen Footloose. Right. So, you know, feeling a little rebellious, John said yes, and the rest was history. They married in 1981. They had Tyler in 1988. In 1990, they bought their house.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

134.554

So by the time John's on the phone, people had already called over to the kid's babysitter, but they apparently never got dropped off there. And no matter how many times or who called the Feeney house, no one has picked up there either. John is rattled by this because he hadn't talked to Cheryl since Saturday night.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1341.275

And according to the Springfield News Leader, John was named Missouri's best science teacher of the year. And at the same time, Cheryl was working her way up the ladder at the medical center. And then Jennifer came in 1993. John tells investigators their marriage was strong, there was no infidelity, like, on either person's part, and he's adamant about that.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1367.667

None of those, either. Like, they are one of those rare couples that had been financially responsible from the start. I mean, they built themselves a nice little nest egg. They don't have much debt. Like... You know, on paper, they've done everything right. And John can't think of a single person who would want to hurt his family. Like this just makes no sense. There's no motive.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1388.779

And for what it's worth, John appears to be completely shocked and grief stricken. Like if he is putting on an act right now, it is Oscar worthy. But as the husband, he is still firmly at the top of their list of persons of interest, even as they let him go. I mean, we're still day one here. lot can happen in one day, like the autopsies, for example. And the findings are awful.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1414.396

They're also revealing. While baby Jennifer died from strangulation with a cord from the blinds in her bedroom, Cheryl and Tyler both died as a result of blunt force trauma to their heads.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1433.89

Yeah, I don't know. Because like in my mind, like I feel like the way she died was worse. Like the medical examiner notes that the way she was strangled would have taken minutes and she likely suffered.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1445.919

Right. Mm-hmm. Right.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1480.296

Right. And like, again, I said this before, but this isn't a big house. You just have the main story in the basement. So, I mean, the thing I don't know is like how hard of a sleeper she was. I like I've got my like earplugs in my eye mask. I don't know that I would wake up. But to your point, like, maybe she was more alert because she was alone. I don't know.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1498.902

But it does seem like she was asleep when someone came at her. Cheryl was struck in the head 10 times with what Ron Davis describes as some kind of metal pipe or a rod that would have been like a half inch in diameter. And Tyler was struck seven times with the same object, including three blows to the head. Whatever they had been bludgeoned with, there was no sign of that at the scene.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1522.355

But according to Rita, that doesn't mean that there weren't any weapons found there because I guess Cheryl had superficial puncture wounds to her face and a knife was found near her body. Now, the medical examiner determines that the murders took place in the overnight hours from Saturday into Sunday.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

153.192

Like he had called a few times on Sunday, even left a couple of messages when he couldn't get through, mostly like, Chalking that up to the craziness of like taking care of their six-year-old son Tyler, their 18-month-old daughter Jennifer, like she's doing this on her own. But now he's not so sure that something isn't wrong.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1542.208

Although there are signs that the killer maybe tried to confuse things because I guess Cheryl and John, you know, there is nothing more 90s than a waterbed. And they had a waterbed. Oh. where the heat had been turned all the way up to the highest possible temperature, which caused her body to decompose even faster than it would have otherwise.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1580.869

That's what I'm saying. Like, everyone talks about this waterbed as being something that like, oh, the killer was trying to like, Like, speed up decomp. And I'm like, yeah, but just for Cheryl. Like, it wouldn't... It doesn't change anything about, like, the decomp for the kids.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1593.428

I mean, again, if you're trying to confuse the scene, which everything in this house feels confusing, if you are trying to make it appear as though she died before the kids, I don't know what that would mean or... Again, I'm just spiraling.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1612.583

Accidentally.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1618.332

Yeah. There are some other, like, small things that they find. So when they process the crime scene, they actually take samples of what looks like semen on the comforter of the couple's waterbed. Although reporting never mentions evidence that Cheryl was sexually assaulted. And we know that she was found in her nightgown.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1637.757

They also collect a hair from Cheryl's nightgown that they can tell was recently dyed reddish brown, as well as a couple of gray hairs from the garage, one of which was on the paintbrush used by the killer. And for what it's worth, John and Cheryl both have brown hair. Tyler was more of like a dark blonde. I haven't seen any pictures that showed Jennifer's hair color.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1661.925

Whatever it was, none of the family matched these hairs that are found. And as far as I can tell, there's never any mention of other biologics or hairs or anything being found in any of the kids' bedrooms. But that's not to say that there aren't other clues. One clue they find is just disguised a little. You see, A. Scharnhorst reports for the Kansas City Star that during Tyler's autopsy,

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1686.599

The medical examiner finds that he had liver damage, which doesn't make sense in a healthy six-year-old kid. Like, the ME doesn't know what it means yet, won't know what it means for a while because he has to order some additional tests that are going to take time. But it's just like this thing that everyone's like, we've got to figure this out. Right. Right.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

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And while they wait, over the next few days, investigators interview John's friends, family, co-workers. And basically the consensus is like there is no way that John did this. He would just never do something so heinous. John and Cheryl were happy. John's a good guy. Friends and colleagues from the conference say that he was his usual self all weekend long. Like,

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

171.222

So he hangs up, calls the Greene County Sheriff's Office asking them to perform a welfare check. What John doesn't know is that he's not the only person raising the alarm. Around the same time that he calls, the sheriff's office is also fielding a call from a woman named Teresa.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1728.894

Heck, the guy teed up for a casual round of golf within hours of the murders and not a hint of stress or distress or distraction or even a bad mood was anywhere to be found on him. Though to investigators, that doesn't mean a whole lot. I mean, I've told you about the scene. You got to be a special kind of inhumane monster to do what this killer did.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1750.441

Whoever did this would probably act fine after. So if they're going to rule John out, it's got to be using cold, hard facts, not feelings about how he acted. Osage Beach Police Department confirms for investigators that John was there paying the ticket, getting his license back at 1030 Saturday night. So that part of his story checks out.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1772.423

But when they process John's car, they discover the first crack in his story. No incriminating forensics or anything like that. Like, in his car, they don't find any traces of blood. There's no weapons. There's no bloody clothing. Any beige paint? There is no beige paint to be found. No shoes matching the prints from the scene either.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1790.831

Which, actually, speaking of the shoes, investigators had determined that those were men's size 11. But at least one source reports that John wears a men's size 12, for what it's worth.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

18.767

That honestly has me twisted up in knots because like one minute it's like fetch me a pitchfork and like rally the troops. This guy needs to be buried under the courthouse. But then like the very next minute, I'm like, oh, my God, maybe he's a victim, too. And then I feel bad for ever thinking such a thing. So pitchforks or no pitchforks, that will be for crime junkies to decide.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1807.484

He also could have like not even been wearing shoes. Right. We keep going back to this May the Prince. Anyways, back to the car. So nothing tying him to the crime scene physically, right? But what they find is something interesting. So there is a receipt from a McDonald's near the resort time stamped at 6.59 a.m. on Sunday.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1834.115

Yeah. And McDonald's never played a leading role in his story. So when they bring him back in and question him about this, all he can say is like, oh, my God, I totally forgot that I left to get breakfast that morning. Like, just slipped my mind.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1859.045

I know. I think about Serial when like the way Serial season one starts where it's like, where was the teenager six weeks ago? Like, it's John. Like, where were you this like yesterday morning? Yesterday, yeah. I know. So we've got this timeline now. And in this timeline, he is unaccounted for for eight, maybe eight and a half hours.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1876.43

Although unaccounted for maybe isn't the right phrase because, I mean, per his story, he's sleeping in his hotel room by himself like he should have been. But we know that the round trip home and back would have taken right around three hours, give or take. Like it's 90 minutes each way.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

188.59

And she's calling from the Feeney's house because she is a co-worker of Cheryl's and she had volunteered to like swing by, check things out. And she says that when she approached the house, she noticed that, it's so strange, the pane of glass in the door on like the front door had been painted over from the inside, which is odd because Teresa and Cheryl are friends. Like, she's been there before.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

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Which would leave him a minimum of five to five and a half hours to theoretically wipe out his family, do some careful staging, and then get breakfast.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1920.686

That feels super personal. And maybe it is the only real thing. And especially when you think about the fact that Cheryl and Tyler's faces were covered and Jennifer is curled up in a ball face down. All of this to me says that it's someone who was familiar with them, someone who felt some sort of way after they did what they did. I mean, even during.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1942.978

Yeah, and like couldn't bear to look at the faces of the people that they killed. But the question is, was that someone John? Because even though the McDonald's receipt is definitely sketch, like the fact that he left it out and it looks really bad for him, there was something else in the car that actually plays in his favor, right?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1961.909

John was known to keep a written travel log in his car where he records all of his mileage. I don't know why. I don't know if the school district like reimburses for travel or what. Or like I've truly also my friend's dad does this for like no reason other than his own records. Just for fun. Cool. So he's got this like detailed log.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

1980.184

And when investigators compare the mileage on the car to the travel log, It matches perfectly for him not making the extra drive home and back. Like, there's no unaccounted for miles for an extra trip home to kill your family. Per the log, there were just enough miles for him to have gone on the trip, but not to have made another trip home and back.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

2023.154

Totally possible. But, I mean, when you look at everything as a whole, we have no physical evidence. You have a matching mileage log, no matter how you got there. So police don't have a lot to work with if they think that John's their guy. Now, for the first week following the murders, John and Cheryl's family present a really united front.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

2041.627

They even go to the funeral home to pick out caskets together for the funeral, which is held the following Friday. But then the United Front becomes a little less so. And it's because of what happens when John sits for another interview, which will turn out to be his last interview. This is on Saturday, the day after the funeral and almost a week after the murders.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

2063.746

By now, his family has caught on that investigators are looking at him closely, which like, yes, duh, we said he's the husband. So they hire him, this hotshot local defense lawyer, to represent him like mid-interview, quite literally. Which, life rule number nine, always get a lawyer. For sure. So this attorney hightails it to the station and is like, knock, knock, knock.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

2084.137

You're talking to my client there. Like, I need to speak with him. But investigators are like, sorry, sir, I can't let you in on account of John hasn't personally invoked his rights. So the lawyer asked them to pass along a message to his client. Which I can truly only imagine is just do not talk. Shut the hell up. Shut up. Yeah. Whatever it is, the investigators declined that request, too.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

2105.309

So the interview continues. At some point, they ask him to take a polygraph, but he says, no, thank you. And they don't have anything to hold him on. So after a couple of hours, John skedaddles. And from that point forward, he declines further interview requests at the advice of his new lawyer.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

211.602

And that hasn't been like that. No. And even more concerning was the fact that the door was unlocked. So fearing something was wrong, she let herself in only to find that the house had been totally ransacked. But like in the weirdest way imaginable. So like example, on the first floor where she's at, the Feeney's kitchen has this door that leads into the attached garage.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

2125.331

what causes a rift between the families. The polygraph is what plants the first seeds of doubt with Cheryl's family. And, I mean, investigators don't like it either. They tell the press that it'll be really hard to rule him out until he agrees to sit for one. John's lawyer points out that, like, listen, he's been super cooperative. He has turned over whatever financial documents they've asked for.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

2145.778

He's given them samples of his blood, his hair. He let them hold onto his car. And he points out that, duh, polygraphs are BS. Right. Also, investigators wanted him to take the test with their polygrapher, like not even like a third party or someone they pick. So like double no. Yeah. But in the end, like there's nothing investigators can do to like make him take it. Right.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

2185.113

I was surprised.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

2193.56

I guess none that makes a difference. None that John ends up being on. Like there's footage from a few gas stations where they like there may or may not have been sightings of him, although like none that really pan out. To me, it's like the hotel footage that I spiral on. I'm like, yeah, in this entire resort, there's nothing showing like was his car there? Did he leave?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

2214.787

Like I would say even like an entrance exit footage.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

2217.168

camera showing like if he did or did not leave but like nobody talks about that the police said they looked for footage got footage but like i'm like dying to know specifically about the hotel and i've never seen anything about that so the only relevant footage is from the traffic stop which doesn't clear john by any means but it puts him by the resort just like he said

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

2239.824

So maybe they've got this all wrong. Maybe Rita was reading too much into his interest in the other case and like it never crossed his mind since. So he's just a grieving husband. Except there's something in the one piece of footage they have that catches her eye. Rita swears that she has seen the belt that John is wearing in that footage before.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

2261.135

Specifically, she thinks she's seen that belt at the crime scene. See, when the scene was processed, investigators had found a belt just like the one in the video rolled up on the counter in the house. Which is like weird, not a place for a belt, whatever. But again, what about the scene isn't weird. Right, right. And at the time, they didn't know like what to make of that without context.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

2282.649

Also, like I leave like my shoes on the counter. So like, yeah, whatever. But now seeing this, Rita starts to think, what if John came in undressed completely so that you wouldn't get blood on you, rolled up his belt for like some unknown reason, whatever, took out his family. And then like when he got redressed, left the belt behind. Right.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

2310.1

Yeah, it might. And, like, what's extra interesting is that as far as, like, anything that's been reported we've seen, like, no belt was found in John's room at the resort. But it's on the footage of his traffic stop. At 1030, where'd the belt go? Right, right. So Rita can't shake this feeling, right? Like just when you're about to say like, was it wrong? Like, am I reading into things?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

2331.859

Like you get these like little things. And what really seals the deal for her is this next thing. So John is posted up in a hotel room near Springfield while his house is sealed off as a crime scene. And there's this time or this point in time when investigators, Rita included, show up with a search warrant.

Crime Junkie

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Well, that door was like wide open. So she could see Cheryl's car in the garage and the car hood was popped and there was all this like random stuff piled on top of it, including like a TV. So stuff doesn't just feel taken like run of the mill burglary. It also feels moved. I mean, it's weird, like full body chills weird. So she's not going to snoop around. She knows that police are in route.

Crime Junkie

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And she talks about this on the Ozarks podcast that, you know, when they show up, John's a good sport about this. Like, not that he has a choice. And while investigators are doing their thing, one of them is like, man, John, like, I really wish that you would talk to us some more.

Crime Junkie

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And Rita says at this point, this like smug smile takes over John's face and he looks her dead in the eye and says, quote, Well, you know, I once had a very wise person tell me that the best way to stay out of prison is to never talk to the police.

Crime Junkie

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But woof. Yeah. In that moment, Rita says any doubt that she had about his guilt just evaporates. And she is hit with the realization that John Maywell had been plotting to kill his family even back when she was in his night class. And he had all those questions about the case that she was investigating.

Crime Junkie

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Yeah. And like so many people have issue with this because they're like, this is where your entire family, in all three bedrooms, like your family was taken out. There's signs of this everywhere. And sure, it gets cleaned up or whatever. But like, you know, he said that that's just where he had the memories of his family.

Crime Junkie

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It's like where he remembers the good times and that's what he's choosing to remember. I don't think I could... I couldn't. I couldn't do it. I couldn't sleep at night there. But like also could you sleep at night if you were the one who did it? I mean, again, you have to be a true monster to have to. I don't know. It's just like it's something that everyone takes issue with.

Crime Junkie

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But he says like the other thing I'll say is like, again, they weren't like in debt or anything, but like I don't know their financial situation. I don't know if he could. Yeah, like just getting another house or like living in a hotel. Like that's not a financial option for like most of the world.

Crime Junkie

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So there's that. But while he moves back in and everyone's looking at him, like investigators are losing it because they feel like the truth is right in front of them. They just can't prove it. Again, they still don't even have a motive. Right. They can't go to a jury with no what and how and no why.

Crime Junkie

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But sometime in March, investigators receive a bombshell report involving those additional tests that the medical examiner ordered on Tyler. And they think that this is the thing that is finally going to give them a why. The cause of Tyler's liver damage was hepatitis B. What?

Crime Junkie

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I know.

Crime Junkie

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It's very unusual to see in a kid, but it's not unheard of. There are other ways for children to contract it, like it can be passed from mother to child. It's also spread through bodily fluids, which means in theory he could have picked it up at school or something like that, but it is unlikely. So this is when investigators start to form a theory.

Crime Junkie

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What if John had been sexually abusing his son and Cheryl found out and threatened to turn him in? Maybe this would be enough to make him do something desperate. So the next step, obviously, is to test both John and Cheryl for the disease. And they're like fully expecting John's results to come back positive, but they don't. And neither do Cheryl's.

Crime Junkie

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Neither of them has ever had hepatitis B. Okay, so what does that even mean?

Crime Junkie

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Maybe. Probably. I mean, they don't know. All they do know is that Tyler's infection didn't come from either of his parents. And listen, police were right. This would be a strong motive to kill the family. But it's a motive that now points to it being someone other than John. And as they get more test results from other stuff back, more and more continues to point away from John.

Crime Junkie

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So she's just going to like wait for them. Now, season two of the podcast, Ozark's True Crime, is about this case. And Teresa actually tells journalist Ann Roderick-Jones that it takes like 20 minutes for a solo cop to show up. Now, FYI, some reporting indicates that John's mom got there around the same time, but it's a little bit confusing because Teresa doesn't mention her at all.

Crime Junkie

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So while the hairs found on Cheryl's nightgown and the garage and paintbrush don't yield a full DNA profile, the lab is able to confirm that they are not consistent with John or Cheryl's hair. More than just like color, like genetically.

Crime Junkie

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You can count them on one hand. Like the reddish brown hair, there was like, I think there's one of them on the nightgown. There was like a few of the gray ones. So barely any. Okay. Now, they do end up getting a hit with the semen on the bedspread. That belongs to John. It's his bed. His semen, his bed. Yeah, it certainly doesn't prove anything.

Crime Junkie

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Investigators, though, would tell you context is everything because investigators say that they end up learning Cheryl had a habit of washing the comforter on Saturdays. So if she was killed Saturday night, they allege that this puts him in the house when he says he wasn't. Does it, though?

Crime Junkie

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It's well, them being like intimate or anything like that's never part of his story.

Crime Junkie

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I agree. We don't know. There's nobody that I've seen that's been able to confirm like she for sure washed it that day. No.

Crime Junkie

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I know.

Crime Junkie

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And it's strange. I mean, again, they've never said that she was sexually assaulted. I don't think she was. So it's more that like... They're just saying, like, his semen is there. It shouldn't be there based on his story. So it puts him there. Case closed. Even though, like, again, if they want to say context is everything, like, okay, what's the context of it being there?

Crime Junkie

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Like, it does not make sense. But I think the details matter less because they think they've got their guy. And... You know, this gets like I think this feeling gets bolstered a little bit when investigators start realizing that John Feeney, the teacher, dad, husband, may be more of a mask than an identity. Because he is a man with a lot of needs surrounding sex and female attention.

Crime Junkie

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Almost like to a compulsive degree and not always within his marriage, it turns out. Here we go. Yes.

Crime Junkie

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I thought so, too. And I was like, yes, I thought so, too. Actually, believe it or not, though, Pam tells investigators like that dinner thing wasn't a date. And, like, again, remember this whole time, John has been adamant to investigators that he was faithful to Cheryl. Which, of course, is a big fat lie.

Crime Junkie

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Because date or no date, this time, like this night, it turns out Pam and John definitely had an affair. Like, she eventually admits to that. But she said it was very brief, happened like three or four times. They ended things the prior November. And... When they were doing this, like their rendezvous were always at, you guessed it, teachers' conferences.

Crime Junkie

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But either way, Teresa gives the officer a quick rundown and then follows him in, pointing out all the alarming things that she had noticed before. Items that aren't where they should be or are where they shouldn't be. Drawers and cabinets that have been left wide open. I mean, Cheryl's purse is on the kitchen table looking rifled through.

Crime Junkie

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And interestingly, Pam makes sure to clarify that it hadn't even involved sex sex, just what she calls like intimate relations, which like, I don't know, it sounds the same to me. Like, it sounds like when like super conservative people are like, well, it didn't go in there. And I'm like, my friends, like, a hole is a hole. Like, Jesus made our bodies. A hole is a hole. That's how I feel.

Crime Junkie

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Truly, truly. Anyways, so... It's not just Pam that they find. Another one of the affairs that they find out about was with this woman who claims that John used, quote, unquote, mind control on her, which is like, what? Your guess is as good as mine. I don't know if she means literally, figuratively, or what.

Crime Junkie

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Like, there's no one else who's saying that John, like, does witchcraft or anything wild like that. Like, so... I don't know. But she goes into detail about some of their encounters, including an especially racy one that took place on a boat involving John and her and two other men. And this was also at a teacher's conference? No, no, no, no.

Crime Junkie

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So it seems like teacher's conferences are his, like, hunting grounds. But what happens at teacher's conferences... does not always stay at teachers conferences. So he takes that stuff right on home with him and like continues to act in some pretty objectionable ways.

Crime Junkie

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See, it turns out that John, who was put on administrative leave after the murders, has always tried really, really hard to seem cool to his students. No. Nope. No way. No, no, no, no, no, no. Some of it was in the category of like gross but seemingly innocuous.

Crime Junkie

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Chris Bentley and Robert Keyes report in the Springfield News Leader that I guess he had a thing for Cindy Crawford and he like made a point to joke around about it in class, especially with like the other male students. Which, like, I know I said seemingly innocuous, but, like, this is not good. Red flag to anyone whose teachers is, like, having conversations with them like this.

Crime Junkie

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Like, a teacher should never be talking about who they have a thing for. Like, it is completely and totally inappropriate type of conversation for an adult and a minor to have, especially for an adult teacher and their minor student. Like, these are the little things that you do have to watch out for. Like, the boundary testers.

Crime Junkie

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Like, if you write off the little ones, it makes room for more and more. Like... Oh, you're not just like teacher and student. You're friends like he gets you. So maybe it wasn't weird. It was just cool to the kids when there's this time when he buys them alcohol, which is a tip that does come in about him.

Crime Junkie

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Like, I guess he was at a bar and some students were there, like who he would clearly know were underage. Like, duh, they're his students. Yeah. And he bought them some drinks. And when this came out, John actually tried to sue the investigators to get them to stop sharing further information to the press. But like all of it ends up getting dropped.

Crime Junkie

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And then there are other former students who had weird experiences with John that they, with the benefit of hindsight, feel like were John's attempts to put them in inappropriate situations. Like to hang out socially, maybe even one-on-one, that kind of thing. Which takes me back to my point about, like, boundary testing, what you'd call grooming.

Crime Junkie

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And then in the living room, I didn't mention this, but there are shoe prints everywhere. All over the carpet, seemingly like made from some kind of light colored liquid. So this cop, what he does is he pulls out his radio. He knows that he's going to need some backup. Like this is as weird as she thinks it is. And Teresa kind of hangs back a little while this officer heads to the primary bedroom.

Crime Junkie

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John was for sure testing his boundaries there, but... But there are no reports of him coming on to or doing anything physical with a student, technically. So there is one super disturbing story from a former student, and she actually tells Anne Roderick-Jones about this in the podcast. So apparently there was this post-graduation camping trip that John went on with some recent grads.

Crime Junkie

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Like, ostensibly, I would assume he's there as a chaperone. Otherwise, I don't know why he would be there. But he apparently saw this as a prime opportunity to cozy up to one of the girls. And according to the former student, they eventually slept together. Now to be clear, everyone involved was 18 at the time, like this is after graduation, but she was a former student. Barely former.

Crime Junkie

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Yeah, and it is wildly inappropriate and manipulative and abusive power dynamics, like all the things. Yeah. So... All of that to say, if there is a motive, police believe it's John's philandering. Did Cheryl know? Not know? We don't know, but whether she did or not, they think John just wanted to wipe the slate clean, start over, minus the wife and kids, and plus a cool quarter of a million.

Crime Junkie

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Because guess what? They find out that John took out an additional life insurance policy on Cheryl for $250,000 just months before the murders, which like, well, of course he did. Right. They always do. And though handwriting experts believe Cheryl filled out one part of the application, they're pretty sure that the final signature is not hers.

Crime Junkie

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They can't prove it's John's either, but probably not Cheryl's. So, like, that's not that's confusing. Like everything. Now, it's important to note there was some sort of promotion thing going on that the insurance company was doing for teachers in the area at the time when Cheryl's life insurance was up.

Crime Junkie

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And we know this because the podcaster and Roderick Jones, she says her own aunt was a teacher in the area around this time. And she remembers it. So maybe that's the reason that the coverage got up at that time. Like a lot of teachers were doing the same thing.

Crime Junkie

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It's all circumstantial, right? Which is why it is a huge deal when months into the investigation, investigators find a witness. or maybe settle on a witness. It's this gas station worker from near Springfield who says that he remembers John stopping to get gas in the wee hours of that Sunday morning after the murders.

Crime Junkie

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And this guy's actually been on investigators' radar for a while, but his original stories to police weren't super helpful timing-wise because they placed John in Springfield at a time that he couldn't have been there, which investigators knew because of the McDonald's receipt that they found in his car. But then the worker's time changed by like a good three or four hours.

Crime Junkie

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And like presto change-o, we've got ourselves an eyewitness who's going to be like the star of the show. Cool, cool, cool. So he's kind of useless.

Crime Junkie

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They're willing to take the chance because in January of 1996, they put this case before a grand jury, which John pleaded the fifth before, FYI. And by April, the grand jury has returned three indictments for first-degree murder. So while there might be some holes to fill in their story and their theory and their case, clearly these grand jurors see what the police see.

Crime Junkie

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And when he turns on the bedroom light, she asks him a question, but he is just like staring straight forward in stunned shock. Doesn't even hear her, so she has to repeat herself. She's dead, isn't she? And the best answer that this guy can muster is look and see. Not his finest moment, no question, but part of me feels sorry for the guy because what he sees is horrific.

Crime Junkie

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And the police are thinking that they're going to have time to, like, shore things up before the trial. They'll, like, you know, just take their time, push it out, maybe even years. Mm-hmm. Problem is, we have this little thing called a right to a speedy trial. And John's lawyers take full advantage. You want to charge him? Let's go and let's go now.

Crime Junkie

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So all of a sudden, the prosecution finds itself scrambling. And it sure doesn't help that the one eyewitness they have doesn't just have a questionable story that's going to leave the jury wondering... Was it right the first time or the second time? The defense is not playing those games. They get their hands on the gas station attendant's time cards.

Crime Junkie

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And guess who wasn't even working the night that this went down? So his story is completely useless. Yeah, it's not real. They cannot use him. So when they go to trial in September of 1996, it is without their key witness. Because they don't have one. Nope. And that's just the beginning of the unraveling.

Crime Junkie

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Over time, they had found a few friends of Cheryl's who were prepared to testify that she had confided in them about wanting a divorce, even said maybe she was scared of John. But they end up being prohibited from testifying based on case law that, get this, actually stemmed from that case that Rita was investigating while she was in John's night class. So the husband in that case was convicted.

Crime Junkie

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But actually, like, big twist, not long before John's trial, his conviction was vacated based on hearsay violations. He later got retried and acquitted, by the way. But the judge in John's case decides that this decision, the one about the hearsay violations, prevents him from allowing Cheryl's friends from testifying to things that she said about their marriage.

Crime Junkie

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And Cheryl possibly wanting a divorce is a big deal. Remember, John's dad is a minister in the ultra conservative Church of Christ, which at the time is like, oh, the shame about divorce. So if Cheryl divorced him, the thinking goes it could have been super embarrassing to his family. And like it sounds wild, but we have seen this play out before. Like, oh, divorce is awful.

Crime Junkie

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So let me just like go with the lesser crime of murder in the eyes of God. Right. Like obviously sarcasm. But like that's their argument. He wanted out. He wanted to be free. But like divorce was not an option. Mm hmm. The thing is, this is what the defense argues, is like, John was already free. He was out sowing his wild oats. He was living his best life.

Crime Junkie

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But this thing actually still goes to trial. And this did he, didn't he thing plays out in court. Now, up to a point, I could see jurors leaning in either direction. But where the prosecution starts to lose them, I suspect, is when they bring up vampires. I'm sorry, Ashley, you have not brought up vampires. I know. Why would the prosecutors? What? So, okay.

Crime Junkie

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Investigators had apparently learned that John maybe sometimes plays a role-playing game called Vampires of the Masquerade. And I say maybe sometimes, by the way, because some of the reporting just says he knows about the game through his students. So it's like not even 100% that he plays this game at all. Either way, think like we talked about Dungeons and Dragons before, right?

Crime Junkie

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Like it's that with vampires. Okay. Per the prosecution... When John, a man with no history of violence, set out with the unenviable task of decimating his entire family, he just pretended he was a vampire and was killing them in his game. And I would love to say that I'm oversimplifying this, but I'm really not. Like, that's what they put forward.

Crime Junkie

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Yeah. So they're like, I mean, I don't know. I don't know what they thought that they were going to gain by this or whatever. But, like, I think that they're... It's why we've seen the Dungeons & Dragons thing play out before, right? Where it's just, like, a game that's, like, a little weird. And, like, if people don't understand it, they're afraid of it. Sure. Yeah. So, again...

Crime Junkie

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He's acting as a vampire. This is the prosecution's story. Cool. Meanwhile, the defense argues a much more believable theory than that one, that someone had been abusing Tyler, had suddenly decided that they didn't want to risk anyone finding out, and in support of this theory, they point to the hairs that don't belong to Cheryl or John found on Cheryl.

Crime Junkie

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There's a woman, presumably Cheryl, lying face down on the bed and her head and neck are just covered in wounds. Her face is aimed away from the door, kind of like almost hidden by her hair in a way that looks unnatural, maybe intentional because to Teresa she looks posed.

Crime Junkie

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And on a paintbrush used by presumably the killer. Yeah, and it's Very freaking possible that there might have been more physical evidence pointing to an outside intruder that just wasn't collected. So come to find out some super important crime scene surfaces. Like, I mean, we're talking Tyler's headboard, Jennifer's crib, for instance. Like those were never dusted for prints.

Crime Junkie

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So like the lowest of the low hanging fruit that investigators just totally dismissed, like botched. And again, let's go to how did he contract Hep B? Ann Roderick-Jones notes in her podcast that the official who tracks infectious disease cases for the county was given like a list of 155 names of people who had potential contact with Tyler.

Crime Junkie

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And when they compared that to the people being tracked, like none of those names were on the list.

Crime Junkie

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Either. It's very likely that it's the second because Hep B isn't something routinely tested for without a specific reason. But this is what's wild to me. Like they do this like comparison with the list. And as far as I can tell, that's about where the efforts to figure out how he got Hep B like stopped. So it's not like they went back and started testing people who had contact with Tyler.

Crime Junkie

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It's like the second they found out it wasn't John, they're just like, oh, well, that doesn't fit our theory. So let's not investigate. We don't need to find out how he got it. Like, no longer relevant.

Crime Junkie

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So when the jury goes to deliberate on October 5th, 1996, they are sent to do so with no forensics, no witnesses, no murder weapon, no nothing other than vampires and a bad husband with an arguably predatory past. And like this bad investigation to look at. So everyone is on pins and needles until the jurors come back less than five hours later with their verdict. Not guilty. Not guilty.

Crime Junkie

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Not guilty. Which, to be clear, is not a vote of confidence in the innocence of John Feeney. Most of the town, jurors included, very much think he is guilty AF. No one is more disappointed in the verdict than Rita, who told Ann Roderick Jones that there was evidence that the prosecution just didn't introduce. Like, example would be the belt thing.

Crime Junkie

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So it's like doubly frustrating when jurors explain in interviews that they just weren't given the evidence to prove the case. Like there was reasonable doubt. And when Ann interviews the judge who presided over the case, even he says that he wasn't surprised by the verdict.

Crime Junkie

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In the weeks following John's acquittal, Cheryl's family sues to prevent him from collecting on her insurance policies, although the suit doesn't really go anywhere and it is eventually dropped. John gets the proceeds, but he pledges to dedicate $50,000 to funding a private investigation into who really did kill his family. If he did, though, I couldn't find any evidence for it.

Crime Junkie

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And then it gets worse because in the next bedroom is a little boy laying in the bed on his back with a pillow covering his face and blood visible around him. And then in the third bedroom, there is a toddler in a crib like curled up tight, her face buried in the mattress and a cord wrapped tight around her neck. So within minutes, the house is crawling with officers from the sheriff's office.

Crime Junkie

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Now, he sticks around in Springfield for a while, but at some point he moves away, eventually landing in Ecuador, where he resumes his career. He even remarries and builds a new family. And that's pretty much the end of the story until... Anne released that season of her podcast on this case in 2022, which by the way, I'm going to plug it again, Ozark's True Crime.

Crime Junkie

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It is a really great podcast by a team of like really great folks. I'll link to it in the show notes. Anyway, after it comes out, Anne hears from a kid who was a neighbor of John's at the time of the murders. And it turns out that this kid could have been the witness that the prosecution needed, was just overlooked.

Crime Junkie

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Someone who placed John at his house in the wee hours of the morning the night of the murders. So this neighbor, I think she said she was like 9 or 10 at the time, tells Ann that she was up that night with a stomach ache. She woke up her parents sometime between 2 and 4 a.m. and they told her just like go take some Pepto.

Crime Junkie

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And on her way back to bed, she looked out her window and saw John's bright red Mustang sitting in the frickin' driveway. She even thought to herself, like, "'Oh, weird. Mr. Feeney never parks his bright red Mustang in his driveway.'" And then she went back to bed. Now, as soon as she heard about the murders, a few days later, she told her dad what she'd seen.

Crime Junkie

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And her dad, who could corroborate that she'd been awake that night at that time, made sure she repeated the whole story to investigators. But somehow her sighting got leaked. Like misplaced or overlooked or whatever? Because when Ann interviews the prosecutor, he says that that's the first time he's hearing anything of this.

Crime Junkie

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No. And I mean, this is the part of the episode where I would normally say, like, if you have any tips or know anything, please call X, Y and Z agency at whatever number. But like this officially, at least, is a closed case. But in my opinion, it's a closed case with way too many unanswered questions. Like, have those hairs from the crime scene ever been analyzed with more advanced technology?

Crime Junkie

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Like, how did Tyler contract Hep B? If I were law enforcement in Springfield, I don't know, I'd want to be sure. No, you can't try John Feeney again, but what if? What if it wasn't him? Police might not be listening anymore, but I guess I am. So if you're in Springfield and you know anything, the line's open. Send me an email.

Crime Junkie

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You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.

Crime Junkie

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We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

Crime Junkie

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I mean, considering the magnitude of this crime, a multi-agency task force called the South Central Missouri Major Case Squad steps in. But it's up to the sheriff's office to preserve the crime scene until they can get up to speed. And to do that, the Major Case Squad investigators converge at the Missouri State Highway Patrol outpost.

Crime Junkie

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This is the story of the Feeney family. So when John Feeney gets back to his room at Tanterra Resort around 9 a.m. on the morning of Monday, February 27th, 1995, he sees that he missed a call from the high school where he teaches science in Springfield, Missouri. Now, he's been up here at this Lake of the Ozarks resort for a teacher's conference since 2009. Saturday.

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And as they shuffle into the conference room, someone mentions that the victims are the family of a Springfield teacher. And there are well over a thousand teachers in Springfield, okay? So, like, no one mentions any names. It could be any of those families.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

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But in that instant, an investigator named Rita turns to the person next to her and almost casually says, wasn't John Feeney's family, was it? Which, needless to say, the question practically knocks the wind out of the other investigator who's like, well, yeah, actually it was.

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Well, so Springfield may be the third largest city in Missouri, but it does have major small town vibes, like a six degrees of Kevin Bacon kind of thing. And apparently Rita and John actually have a history. So they went to high school together. And then she took a chemistry night class that he taught at a local university. And that was like just the prior fall.

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So it's someone she knows when she goes and takes this class. It's not weird that they got to talking, things even non-chemistry related. And somehow, like the recent high-profile crime became the topic of conversation during one of these classes or after or whatever. And probably because it happened like mid-semester and Rita was working the investigation. Yeah.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

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You see, in September of 94, a 37-year-old woman named Lisa Revelle was killed in her home south of Springfield. Now, investigators, Rita included, quickly put Lisa's husband under the microscope as their prime suspect. A tale as old as time, right? Yeah. But Rita says that John was super interested in the investigation as it played out in real time. Maybe too interested.

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Because Rita tells Anne on her podcast that one particular question stands out in her mind. Especially in hindsight, John was obsessed with knowing one thing. What was the husband's big mistake? What fatal misstep did he make that allowed police to zero in on him? What got him. Right, which like, why do you ask, sir? Right. But she gave him an answer.

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She said that he talked to police and he shouldn't have. No potential suspect or person of interest or whatever, she said, should ever talk to the police because that is how many of them wind up in prison. So that is what is at the back of her mind when she brings up the Feeneys. And it probably stays on her mind after they get briefed and head to the Feeney house and walk this bizarre scene.

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And truly, I mean bizarre. Like on the surface, it's strange. But when you drill in close and look at the details of this thing, it gets really, really weird. Like those shoe prints in the living room. What they find out is the liquid that those are in is beige paint. The prints themselves have dried, but they find a still wet puddle in the garage.

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Wait, like the same paint used to maybe paint the glass on the front door? You know, I'm not sure that they ever, that's ever verified or reported on. I couldn't find anything about that. But I think that's the working assumption. But again, that's not even like the strange part. These prints that they have, they don't make sense because they don't fade like you would expect them to.

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I mean, I think about it. If you walk through a puddle of paint, like the first step should leave the clearest prints. Right. And then like the more steps you take, the drier it gets, especially on carpet. Right. Like they're going to start to fade. But the ones that they're seeing, like they don't fade. All of them are like equally saturated. Right.

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Which just like, why? Yeah. Like that doesn't make sense for a crime if it happened this way. And these are the killer's prints. Yeah. But the paint was used for something else too. So investigators find a cryptic message painted on the wall of Cheryl and John's bedroom. And it's painted in the same beige paint. The message says, in all caps, BIT DIE.

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MURDERED: The Feeney Family

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Now, everyone seems to agree that two letters are missing from the end of that first word. Like B-I-T is what it says. And they think that it's missing the C-H. So BIT DIE is what they think.

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Like... My knee-jerk reaction is no, because here's the thing. When you actually, like, see a photo of this, I saw a glimpse of it in, like, coverage from, like, the trial. Like, old, old coverage. Yeah. Bit is written above the word die. So in my mind, it's like the first word. Right. So like running out doesn't make sense.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

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Neither does the writer getting spooked mid message, like because then we shouldn't have the word die. Right. I mean, it's possible that die was written first and then like maybe they had some paint left over and was like, oh, how can I add insult to injury here? Like, oh, I'll like call her names, too. Right. But then they only got through the first three letters.

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MURDERED: The Feeney Family

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And I don't know why you would still write it above the word die. So this doesn't make sense to me. But again, so much of this crime scene defies explanation.

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Like what color are their walls? Also a shade of beige. Like you can see the words, but they definitely blend in. I don't even know if you can see them maybe because they're still wet or something.

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MURDERED: The Feeney Family

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And I have a feeling, I don't know this for a fact, but like knowing that they were in the garage, knowing we have that puddle in the garage, that maybe it was like some kind of touch up paint for the house that was like already there. So again, potentially not even something that the killer brought with them.

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MURDERED: The Feeney Family

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We tried to verify all that, by the way, but like our records request was denied by law enforcement. Cool. Now, I could spend the entire episode discussing the paint because there is this other weird part. So the prints that are like saturated the whole way through, they follow a pretty clear path. So the house is one story but has a basement with its own entrance.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

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The prints start at that puddle in the garage. They go through the living room, lead to the primary bedroom, and then they just stop. Like there's no return path. And again, it's not like they fade away. The ones in the bedroom are just as clear as the ones in the garage. So whoever did this like took the shoes off in the bedroom? Maybe. So were they wearing them?

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Were they holding them on their hands and not wearing them because they're like just making this path? However, they had these shoes. What I do know is that they had to have taken those shoes with them when they left because Because police don't find any shoes in the house that are covered in beige paint or that even match the size and tread patterns of these prints.

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So I'm guessing that they, like, took them off or, like, stopped using them in the bedroom. Because, again, we never see the prints fading the way they should have. We never see them going anywhere else. It's, like, almost like this arrow beacon. Like, it feels too simple. Like, it's someone trying to say, hey, go from the garage to the bedroom. But it's not a big house.

Crime Junkie

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Like, people would have made it to the bedroom.

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faded like all the freaking alarm bells are going off in my brain this is 1000% staged it is and like no matter any way you cut it this is staged and the rest of the house is starting to give staged as well so everywhere investigators turn it is like torn apart right like almost theatrically so Think less real life robbery and more like over the top Hollywood movie.

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Even the cabinets under the kitchen are like open, which like.

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100 percent, especially because there were actually some things to find that seemingly weren't found, like they weren't taken. So, for example, like there was cash in a dresser drawer in the primary bedroom. I mean, not a ton, like 40 bucks. But how are you literally like rifling through dishwashing supplies, leaving behind cold, hard cash?

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Robert Keyes of the Springfield News Leader speaks to a source who basically says that someone or someones went to great lengths to make it look like this was done by a group of criminals. But it's like they tried so hard that it backfired. Even what at first blush appears to be evidence of forced entry is a little sketch. So the front door is fine.

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I mean, minus the like painted window and the fact that it was unlocked. But it's not like damaged or anything. It is actually the walkout basement door that looks like it's been kicked in. Reporting at the time describes it as splintered and there is even a visible shoe print. Not in paint. That might have been too obvious. But it's like kicked in.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

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But even his kicked in door is sus because when a door is forced open, normally you find wood pulp on the screws from being forcibly dislodged. Right. They're being pulled out of the wood. Right. But Rita tells Anne that there was no pulp to be found. Not a ton of damage to the doorframe either. Instead... It is almost like the door had been ever so carefully unscrewed from the hinges.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: The Feeney Family

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And to do that, it would have had to have already been open for that to work. And are you ready for the actual full body chills moment of this story? So this house is chaos. But there is one thing that makes even the most hardened homicide investigators shiver. A family might have inhabited this home just a day or two earlier, but you would never know it from the cold, barren walls.

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MURDERED: The Feeney Family

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Because every last family photo, every baby picture, every school picture, every wedding photo, has been taken down and turned inward, hiding the smiling faces from sight.

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Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And the story I have for you today is about the women and girls whose lives were cut short after encountering a monster whose full reign of terror might not even be fully known. He hunted in his own backyard, the wilderness of the Pacific Northwest, and there could be victims out there that have yet to be discovered.

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Linda says that she thought she needed to wait the 24 hours to report her daughter missing. And it has to break her heart when the dispatcher corrects her and tells her that, like, in the cases of children, that's not true. They're here now. So the dispatcher starts asking questions. Who was the last to see her daughter? Linda tells them that it was her stepfather.

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And, of course, Britt, do you want to take a wild guess at who her stepfather was? Fuck.

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It is fucking John Aykroyd. For the second time, John is about to become the main suspect in a disappearance. Now, John had married Linda in the mid-80s, but divorced soon after. Despite this, though, it sounds like they stayed together anyway.

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And according to Noelle's piece in The Oregonian, they are living together in 1990 and raising Linda's children from her previous relationship, Rachanda and her brother Byron. Now, home for them was this remote community known as Santiam Junction, which is where Highway 20, Oregon Route 126, and Oregon Route 22, like, all intersect. These are all these big highways.

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John worked as a highway mechanic, so it made sense for the family to live in this, what essentially was like a compound where other highway workers lived as well.

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About 30 minutes. So police descend on this area. They bring in massive, like, search resources to find Richanda. And it's clear that police early on think that she didn't just run away. Like, nothing in her room was missing. None of her close friends had any idea where she was. And Richanda wasn't known to just wander off into the woods.

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In the Lost Women of Highway 20 doc, her brother Byron points to the fact that she was actually scared to go into the woods alone. And Linda tells police that the last time she saw her daughter was the morning of the 10th, so the day before. Richanda was up early, even helped Linda do her hair. And before Linda left for work, she gave her daughter a list of chores to do that day.

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But that wouldn't stop Kay from getting her workout in. Again, avid runner. And what should have been Kay's time to recharge and clear her head is quickly becoming... Now her family and friends nightmare because there is no sign of Kay as her husband is driving around everywhere. And by 1.30, Noel is thoroughly panicked, enough that now he needs to call police.

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But then when Linda got home, no chores had been done and Richanda wasn't there. And if she went somewhere, she would usually leave a note. That's not there either. So what's John's story through all this? Well, he said that he dropped Linda off at work that morning and then he went to go work in Bend, Oregon. John is still a mechanic for the state at that point.

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But he says that when he got there, he found that some parts that he was waiting for like didn't come in. So he ended up just taking the day off.

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Correct. Even more than that, supervisors of his would later say that there was no reason for him to take off, like just because whatever parts weren't there, like there's plenty of other work that he could have been doing that day.

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home he tells police that when he got home richanda was there he saw her on the couch watching cartoons he asked her if she wanted to take pictures of deer on some like back roads or something but she didn't want to go with him because she's a teenage girl and that sounds awful yeah so he says he left to go take pictures on his own noticed richanda wasn't home by the time he got back he said when he noticed she wasn't there he like looked around a little bit then he left to go pick linda up from work and then when they got home together richando still wasn't home

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Now, in a moment that would eventually feel like deja vu for some, John is adamant that he's got nothing to do with Richanda's disappearance. While John does help search for his stepdaughter, I mean, he kind of leads the charge, actually, he's also saying things right and left that are just big, like, WTF moments.

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Like, at one point, John tells police that on the night that Richanda disappeared, he and Linda had sex together. Despite, you know, like her daughter being missing. He even tells police it was great sex. Like he makes sure to say that. And he said it was notable because John has, he tells them, a low libido. So it's unusual that they even have sex.

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Which would be fucked. Like, in so many words, like, they kind of point to that in the doc. Like, how messed up it would be for you to have, like, a libido in this situation when you normally don't. And then to want to have sex with this woman whose young daughter is newly missing. Like, that day. Like, I don't know.

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So, John's interview with the police, and like a lot of things with John, it only gets more troubling from there. At one point, John theorizes how someone could have done something to Richanda.

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He talks about how someone could have knocked her out with a punch, could have tied her up or used a knife to threaten her, and that her size and weight would have made it easy for someone to carry her away. And police soon find evidence that could suggest that these aren't just theories. In the back of John's truck, police find a rope with Richanda's hair and blood.

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Some blood is also found on the doorstep of his truck. And I don't think these are massive amounts of blood, just like tiny drops, but blood nonetheless. I mean, at least they have some physical evidence this time. Not so fast. John claims that Richanda used the rope to play with, like, some kittens or something. So he is like, maybe that's how her hair got on it.

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He doesn't know how the blood would have gotten there. But, you know, kids be kids, basically. Like, he's like, you know how they are. And he kind of just, like, throws up her hands. No explanation is a good explanation to him. Like, and it might not be a good explanation, but... It isn't proof, again, of anything to these police officers.

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So Noel and others are eager to get searching right away, but they're told by police to wait, which is just at this point burning precious daylight hours in their minds. So eventually sheriff deputies arrive and they, along with the locals and the Turner's friends, finally do start searching for Kaye. Even when it gets dark, they search through the night.

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Obviously, John is front and center, but there is a brief period where police do look at Richanda's biological father, Steve, as a possible suspect, too. You see, Richanda had just returned from visiting him. In fact, her brother, Byron, was still visiting him when she went missing. And without going into too much detail, Steve didn't sound like father of the year by any means.

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But the problem is Steve lived five hours away. So police are confident that he wasn't in the area that the time she disappeared. So even though they kind of go down this other path, they pretty quickly are right back looking at John.

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I don't know how much they actually grill him on Kay, but I think they're at least aware of it, even though there's probably been a ton of turnover in, I mean, it's been like a decade. And even though Kay disappeared in another county, it sounds like the DA of that county was monitoring the search for Richanda.

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I think there's like maybe some hope that if they can't get him on Kay, that they'll get him on Richanda. So, I mean, they're definitely connecting the dots. But outside of law enforcement, there were others who were less quick to judge John. Byron talks about how his mom would get upset when he would ask about John's possible involvement.

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In a Statesman Journal article published not long after Richanda goes missing, Linda publicly talks about how she is concerned about the focus on John. Now, why she's responding this way, I don't know. According to the Lost Women of Highway 20 doc, Richanda showed signs apparently of physical abuse and, according to her friends, sexual abuse at the hands of John.

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Like, I guess Richanda and her friends would talk about it sometimes. Like, some of them were dealing with similar things at home. And according to her friends, she did tell another adult, but when she did, nothing happened. And then she was scared that, like, she was going to get in trouble or something was going to happen because she told someone.

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Right, which makes it very convenient timing for Richanda to just disappear. And despite one of the most extensive searches in Lynn County history, police do not find her. So now authorities have two cold cases tied to John Aykroyd. But in the fall of 1991, an investigator looking back into Kay's case has an idea.

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He discovers that Roger Dale Beck, so the guy that was supposedly with John on Christmas Eve, he found out that he had gotten divorced from his wife, Pam. And this detective, he is willing to place a bet that now that maybe alliances have changed, stories might change as well. So he tracks down Pam, who is now living in California.

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He shows up at her house, knocks on her door, and when she answers and finds out who this guy is, it takes almost no convincing at all for Pam to come clean. All those years ago, she had straight up lied about Roger and John. Pam tells the detective that Roger and John went out to poach deer on Christmas Eve morning, but they didn't return to the house until the next day.

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And when they did, they had blood on them. And it wasn't just like a little drop or staying here and there. Pam literally had to dispose of Roger's jeans and shirt. It was so bad. And they didn't even try to pass it off as deer blood. They had told Pam that they had accidentally mistaken Kay for a deer and shot her. And they were going to need Pam to basically be their alibi.

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But there isn't a single sign of her, not even on Christmas Day or the day after, despite the searches getting bigger and bigger. Like these are extensive land searches.

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If police ever came around asking questions, she needed to tell them that they got home around noon. Eventually, Roger even admits to her that even that like bull hunting accident story wasn't real. He told her that Kay had been sexually assaulted and shot. And Roger had threatened to do the same to Pam, which is probably why she lied for him. I mean, she was terrified.

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But with Pam's new information, Kay's case starts ramping back up. But the police are in a race against time at this point. They know John is still out there and could strike again. Though, according to the Oregonian, at this time, John's basically been booted out of Santiam Junction. The people weren't comfortable with him being there.

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So he got moved, I assume by his supervisors or maybe like he chose to leave. I don't know. But he is still at the same job working as a mechanic for the state highway department. So like your tax dollars hard at work, folks. So he's apparently not living with Linda anymore and is staying with his mother in Sweet Home, where he grew up. But he's working out of a town called Corvallis.

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And Corvallis, unfortunately, is a, well, unfortunately for the people there at the time, is a thriving little college town. And while it sounds like authorities plan to keep tabs on him, I'm not sure that's as easy as it sounds. John's like a roving mechanic. It means that he is constantly moving up and down Highway 20. But in all of that moving, John does have some usual haunts.

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He becomes this like known commodity at this one particular place called Sherry's Diner along Highway 20 in Lebanon, Oregon. And there, this is wild to me, all the regulars there knew him by his CB radio handle, The Pervert.

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I know. And this guy is either the unluckiest man alive, or every girl and every woman who crosses his path is the unlucky one. Because in 1992, John finds himself right in the center of another missing persons case. Actually, this time, the case of two young women. It's a pair of best friends... 17-year-old Melissa Sanders and 19-year-old Sheila Swanson.

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Because we talked about them before.

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It is. I'll link to that episode in the show notes for people to have a little bit of a refresher. But here we can actually dive even deeper into the details of their cases. So, according to the Lost Women of Highway 20... Both girls hung out at Sherry's diner and they knew the pervert.

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He would buy food for Melissa and he was there one of the last days the girls were ever seen when they had come in and told everyone that they were going to go on a camping trip in Newport, which is like along the Oregon coast.

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Yeah. According to Noelle Crombie, who wrote extensively about this for The Oregonian, Kay even asked one of their friends to go jogging with her, but they declined. And they do eventually find a couple of witnesses, this pair of highway workers who, like, they talked to separately. They were, like, said they saw her, again, separately, like, running solo in the morning that she vanished. So,

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He did. And he even mentioned to the girls that he might be in the same area. Now, the girls' tent ends up being found over that way, empty. But the girls are never seen alive again. I don't know how much authorities looking into Kay's case really know about this new case yet.

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Part of giving him the boot out of town meant that it was harder to keep tabs on what was happening in the communities that he was living in, ones that he was working in, socializing in. And it being the 90s, information wasn't exactly super accessible between jurisdictions.

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So while investigators in one part of the state are looking for their two teens, investigators in another are running a parallel path, trying to reignite the Kay Turner investigation. According to the doc, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife had a new high-tech lab, basically. So Kay's clothes are sent off for forensic testing. And soon enough, the results come back with some very interesting finds.

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The first is that the waistband of Kay's shorts appeared to have been cut or sliced. Some sources say that her underwear were cut off, too.

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On Marlene. Marlene, yeah. Yes. Also, tears in Kay's shirt appear to be from stab wounds and lead fragments on the shirt indicate that she was shot. So that lines up at least somewhat closely with what John had told investigators about the appearance of Kay's body when he claimed to have found her in February.

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Yes. So if John couldn't feel the net kind of slowly closing in on him, he is about to. On May 31st, 1992, police actually arrest, not John, but his friend Roger for the murder of Kay Turner.

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Good question. There is no clear answer that I have seen reported on. So I'm not sure if it was just because they had Pam really pinning Roger for it.

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Maybe they were also hoping that Roger would flip on John, so they wanted him in custody first. I don't know. But not arresting John first... or at least at the same time, could have caused valuable evidence to be lost. Because a little over a week later, police discover that a storage unit that John had rented was completely cleared out the evening of the 31st.

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So the exact day that Roger was arrested.

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I know.

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They don't. And unfortunately for them, the unit's been like, I mean, it's been like swept up. Someone else had moved in right after. I know they tried to like send someone into the crime lab to check the unit out. But there's like there's nothing in the source material about what, if anything, they find. So I'm assuming it was nothing. Either way, again, they lost their opportunity for that.

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But it's game over for John almost two weeks after Roger's arrest. So on June 12th, that's when John is finally arrested. And this means that Kay's family might finally see some justice all these years later. And two other families might not have to wait nearly as long because almost four months after his arrest. So now we're in October. This is October 10th.

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Some hunters come across the bodies of Melissa and Sheila a few miles off of Highway 20. According to Noelle Crombie's reporting, the medical examiner thinks that the girls were most likely strangled, though there are some conflicting sources that say they were stabbed. Either way, like Kay, the conditions of the bodies make it difficult to determine precisely what happened.

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She went on the run. Everything seemed fine. And they must not have seemed all that suspicious or suspicious at all because police didn't seem to dig deeper into either of these like highway worker guys. And there's something else that they didn't dig deeper into either. This one to me is far more baffling.

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And like Kay, there's zero forensic evidence. The only possible piece of evidence police do find at the scene is this like little rivet near one of the bodies and some kind of beaded seat cushion. The speculation being that the rivet, which is like this little screw, it could be something that John would have been using in his work.

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And the seat cushion is something that highway workers often had in their trucks to keep them cool in the summer. So John's truck is searched. He didn't have one of these cushions in it. So maybe that one was his, but it was impossible to determine at the time. And John, who is now in custody, isn't talking.

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So while police try to connect some of the dots between the girls and John, ultimately, it is this all-too-familiar song. There is no physical evidence connecting John to the girls' murders. Now, sometime later, a co-worker of John's would claim that around the time that the girls disappeared, John came into work late one night... And his arms and his hands were covered in dry blood.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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John claimed to have hit a deer and then gutted it. But this guy, I guess, didn't even really believe his story then. Did he go to police with the story? If he did, it wasn't until later, like certainly not then. It sounds like he maybe mentioned the story to his boss, but then it just kind of like stayed work gossip at the time.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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And then after the news about Melissa and Sheila's bodies being found, like, I think this guy began to wonder if there was a connection to this story. But again, a little unclear about, like, when he went to the police or the press or whatever. So in September of 1993, John goes on trial for Kay's murder. And according to the Statesman Journal, people like Roger's wife, Pam, testify against him.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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They also find more witnesses to corroborate what a predator the, quote, pervert is. A woman named Jane Morris testifies that one day in 1978, like months before Kaye's disappearance, she encountered John while she was riding a bike along a road in Camp Sherman. And she says that John pointed a gun at her, attempted to get her to stop, but thankfully she didn't.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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And then one of the more critical testimonies comes from a forensic anthropologist who tells the jury that the only way John could have seen wounds, like the type of wounds he describes seeing on Kaye, was if he saw them in the first few days after Kay died. So him saying, even that he saw her in February, not August. Even that separation wasn't enough to actually make sense.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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So on day three, this is December 26th, the deputy in charge of the search gets a radio call from a couple of trackers who had been helping authorities out. And they tell the deputy that they've discovered two sets of frozen footprints in this clearing over by the woods. Like near where she was seen running? Yeah. I don't know. It sounds like it was close.

Crime Junkie

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It doesn't make sense. They're like, there is no way he could describe the cuts, the shot, whatever, unless it happened within days.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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Yep. On October 6, 1993, just a few days shy of the one-year anniversary of Melissa and Sheila's bodies being discovered, over three years after his stepdaughter, Richanda, vanished, and over 14 years after police are pointed to Kay's remains, that is when John Aykroyd is found guilty of Kay Turner's murder.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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According to an article in The Oregonian, he is sentenced to life with a 20-year minimum, which is the maximum under the law when that crime was committed. Over a month later, Roger Beck is also found guilty and he receives the same sentence.

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INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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Authorities seem to believe that Roger was only involved in Kay's murder, and so they really focused their sole attention on John for answers in those cases for Melissa and Sheila and, of course, Richanda, whose case has continued to make headlines occasionally during this time. But even though it's making headlines, police aren't much further along on that case.

Crime Junkie

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But they do keep coming back to her file year after year. They even get desperate enough to ask John to help. In the fall of 2012, an investigator with the Linn County Sheriff's Office visits John in prison, hoping maybe he's finally ready to talk or open up and provide some kind of answers to the questions that have surely haunted the people that he once called family.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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But despite the investigators' best efforts, John is not giving up his ghosts. According to the Oregonian, he continues to spill the same lies he did in the beginning. And it sounds like this is the last time any investigator speaks with John. By 2013, there is some concern that John could eventually get out on parole.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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So despite only having circumstantial evidence, and as we've mentioned, like zero body, prosecutors do bring Richanda's case to a grand jury as sort of like a Hail Mary. And the prosecution does have a solid pitch to throw. Like, logic dictates that John is probably the one who could have done this. He was the last one to have seen her alive. Opportunity.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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There was accusations of him sexually abusing her. Which gives motive. Oh, and by the way, he has now been convicted of Kate Turner's murder. So, like, we've got this history here. Yeah. And look, I'm all for due process, but we could kind of like probably know who did this. And apparently the grand jury feels the same way because they indict John on a single count of murder.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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But indicting is different than prosecuting and convicting.

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INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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Right. So the prosecution, what they decide to do is they go to Richanda's family specifically because they want to offer him a plea deal. They're like, listen, if we go to trial and he's acquitted, like, that's it. Like, it's over. And he could go on to get parole. Right. So in their minds, it's better to focus on like they want to use this to focus on keeping him behind bars.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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And the family agrees. And John ends up entering a no contest plea. So he's not admitting fault, but he's not denying it either. And this outcome means that he can never be paroled. And while he receives some punishment for Richanda, sadly, her body still hasn't been found. Like that wasn't ever part of the deal that they made with him.

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INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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I'm not totally clear on exactly where this was. But according to these trackers, one set of prints could have been from Kay's running shoes. They knew that she'd been wearing this specific type of Nike shoe, ones with like the old school waffle sole that we know. The other set of prints appeared to be from a larger shoe.

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INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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Ultimately, they decide not to. At this point, they say they're confident it is John who killed them. But John, at this point, is already serving a life sentence. Like, he's never getting out. So prosecutors decide not to proceed with that. Like, knowing he can never see the light of day has to be justice enough. Because that same year, John actually dies in prison.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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So they can never prosecute him, even in the future. And while some might think that that would bring this story to a close, there are still so many questions that remain unanswered, including if these are the only murders John committed.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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Yeah, so the Oregonian flags to date, five other people that have either gone missing from or their remains have been found discovered in the general area off or around Highway 20 where John was known to operate. The first is a skull of a Jane Doe that they found in July of 1976.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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This is the story of the Mysteries of Highway 20. It's around 10 a.m. when Noel Turner realizes his 35-year-old wife Kay hasn't returned from her run. Now, she had left around 8 a.m. and planned to be gone for about an hour, but to make it home for breakfast. Well, that's now come and gone, times two, and Noel is getting a little worried.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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It even predates, yeah, Marlene's sexual assault. The Oregonian calls this Jane Doe, I think they call her Swamp Mountain Doe. And they report that her skull was found a mile off Highway 20. She was believed to be, they think, younger than 35. And authorities found a leather coat, a belt, blue jeans, and a sandal with like a white leather strap nearby that could have belonged to her.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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And then in May of 1977, 15-year-old Karen Lee and 14-year-old Rodney Grissom went missing from the town of Lebanon. We know that John would have passed through there regularly. I mean, that's the same town where Sherry's diner was located, where John would hang out in the 90s. It's where he encountered Melissa and Sheila.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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Karen and Rodney were never found, but clothing and items of theirs were eventually found in the woods. And Karen's jeans appeared to be cut similarly to how John cut clothing off of Marlene and Kaye. Now, what we learn about Karen and Rodney is that the two wanted to run away to California. And one of the teen's last phone calls to a friend indicated that they had found a ride.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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But who they were getting this ride from is unknown. Maybe John, maybe not. Then in August of 1977, 22-year-old Elizabeth Musler went missing, also from Lebanon. Her father was the last to see her downtown. In February of 1978, her body ended up being found in a shallow grave in the Thistle Creek area of Green Peter Reservoir.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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And also in 1978, another skull of a Jane Doe was found by a logging crew in the woods near Snow Creek, which is like a quarter mile south of Highway 20.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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And so right away, it's clear that these are not the prints of two people out for a stroll in the woods. More alarmingly, the trackers say it seems like there was some kind of struggle and that the larger person dragged away the smaller person.

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Sort of. I don't think he was asked in like great detail about these cases, but he was asked more broadly like, hey, John, what about some of these like other cases in the area? He claimed he didn't know what they were talking about and he had nothing to do with anything. So at the end of the day, no other cases have been directly linked to John. It's all speculative at this point.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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But it shows that maybe this story isn't totally over. And while some of his victims' families can take some solace in the fact that this man will never harm anyone again... It's heartbreaking to think that there could still be other families who don't have or may not get the same answers. But it's never too late. And that's why we do this show.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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So if anyone out there knows anything about these cases or about John Aykroyd and his life and his movements, please call the Lane County Sheriff's Office tip line at 866-557-9988. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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They did, but then it got dark and they couldn't go any further, which is something that to me, like, you follow up on after. But it seems like this deputy didn't believe them or he didn't seem as interested because that appears to be as far as this went.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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I don't know. I mean, maybe authorities did look further into it and there's just no record or reporting of it. And maybe there wasn't anything more to learn or they decided they weren't like from the people or K whatever. But. I don't know, I feel like we should have at least closed the loop on that. Yeah. Especially if they're not related at all. That doesn't happen, so we're here left guessing.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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And as more days pass without any sign of Kay, police start looking inward a little more, examining Kay's life to see if there would be any reason for her to leave on her own. According to the limited docuseries Lost Women of Highway 20, when investigators look at her and her husband's life back in Eugene, Oregon, where they live, they discover this calendar that belonged to Kay at her office.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

329.482

And in it, there is evidence to suggest that she had actually been seeing people outside of her marriage. And at the time that police are learning this, this is news to Noel, who they obviously, like, ask about this. Mm-hmm. And they know or like believe that he's not lying about not knowing because they do end up asking him to take a polygraph about this and he ends up passing.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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But he does admit that he knew Kay wasn't happy in their marriage. And we can assume police looked more into any possible affairs that Kay was having, but there's nothing in the source material to suggest that Kay did take off with someone. And again, they have witnesses like putting her out running. So logistically, like that might not even make sense, right?

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INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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Like you're not going to be like putting on your running shoes.

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INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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So before they knew it, it was spring and then summer. And it takes a full eight months before the first sign of K pops up. And in a really chilling way. So one day in August, the owner of this little general store in Camp Sherman is just like going about their usual day when this local guy rolls in. Now, the guy is known to her, the owner, but not in the best way.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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He had been in a couple of times and really skeeved her out when she caught him touching himself in the store while looking at some adult magazines. So like the second she sees him walk in, she's like, oh, hell no. And she goes into the back and gets her husband.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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When he comes out, the guy tells him he found some clothes while he was out rabbit hunting that he thinks might belong to that missing jogger from back at Christmas. And so he asked the shop owner if there is some kind of reward, which there was like a thousand dollar reward at the time.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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But the shop owner is all kinds of suspicious of his story because he knows at the time there are no rabbits in the area. But before this guy can wise up, the shop owner phones police and is like, hey, you probably should get here and, like, don't waste any time. Get here now.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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And if police aren't tripping over themselves to get to the general store already, they are when the store owner calls them back because since he'd hung up with them, the guy has said something else. He admits that he might have been the last person to see Kay Turner alive.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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Now, it's unclear exactly when authorities put two and two together, but they soon realized that this local, this stranger who might have stumbled across Kay's clothes, isn't some random guy. They already knew him. They had interviewed him early in the investigation. His name is John Aykroyd, and he was one of the highway workers who admitted to seeing Kay running the day she disappeared.

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INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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There's this. There's this. Right. So they go meet John and he leads police out into the woods about a mile and a half from Camp Sherman where they find several pieces of clothing. There is a yellow pair of shorts, underwear, a broken watch, Nike running shoes. And then there among the clothing, they find a lower jawbone with teeth still intact.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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And sure enough, a medical examiner will later confirm those teeth belonged to Kay.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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Not at the time. So, I mean, it has been in this area, her body, I mean, in the elements for like some eight months now. Like you've got critters to deal with. I mean, a perfect example is one of the officers actually who's on the scene. They notice a piece of Kay's blonde hair like tangled up in a bird's nest.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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Scattered everywhere. Yeah. But even though they won't be able to determine how she died just based on the little that they have and the way that her remains were left, they do find clues as to when. So Kay's broken watch reads 9-27, December 24th. It's a mechanical watch, not digital, just to be clear. And the stem had been knocked out.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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So like it stopped the time, though there's like some conflicting reporting that maybe it read 9.05. But either way, if it was a.m., that means that it would have broken about an hour or so into her dog that morning, right around the time Noel was expecting her to be home. So now that they know Kay's fate, they bring their first and only person of interest in for questioning.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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And John tells police, much like he did the store owners, that he was just hunting rabbits with his dog when he stumbled across the remains, the clothes, whatever. And police are also suspicious of this because, again, there wasn't a lot of rabbits in this area. So they ask John if he's willing to take a polygraph, which he agrees to.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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He ends up failing, but he still denies any involvement in Kay's death. But here's the thing. His story does begin to shift. So initially, when John told police he saw Kay running on the day she disappeared, there had been nothing else to that story. Well, now, all this time later, he says, actually, I stopped and talked to Kay. Now, it's nothing wild.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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He just, like, we exchanged holiday pleasantries or whatever. But it's significant enough, like enough of a change to make everybody be on high alert. So police ask him if he ever touched Kay because that was one of the polygraph questions he failed. And yet again, all of a sudden, the story shifts. He says, well, yeah, no, I did touch Kay. But he says, bizarrely, that he touched her in February.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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She goes missing in December. Right. And take a seat, buckle up, because the ride is shifting again. Now he tells police that he actually found her body first in February, so not in August. And he says he didn't report discovering her remains because he was afraid that he might get accused of killing her. And when he found her in February, he like touched her arm or something.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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Britt, the red flags on this guy are like piled so high you can't see over them. And it doesn't get any better. John claims that when he found Kay's body in February, she was nude and partially covered in snow. And he said it looked like her throat had been cut and that she was also shot in the chest.

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INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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Yeah, specific. Specific. But still, even though this is super weird, police can't prove that John is the killer. Because even though he's giving this weird specific story, they can't prove that that is a right story or a wrong story either way because they have no physical evidence to work with. And to complicate things, John sort of has an alibi.

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INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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He says that he spent most of Christmas Eve with a buddy named Roger Dale Beck.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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No, these are two totally different guys. Again, John and that other guy weren't even together when they saw Kay. I don't even know if they like worked together, like two separate things. Anyways, so this Roger guy confirms that he was with John, but it's unclear if he was with him before or after John would have seen Kay.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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We just know that he says he went hunting with John at some point that afternoon and then nothing weird stood out to him. Certainly nothing that would suggest to him that, like, his hunting buddy had killed a woman or was planning to kill a woman.

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INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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And Roger's wife, this woman named Pam, she kind of chimes in at some point, giving both of these guys alibis, saying that they were at their house most of the morning.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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Yes, and I'd love to drill in on that, but by this point, John has wised up and he now gets a lawyer. So no more talking and the police have to let him walk. That doesn't mean that they stop digging into him.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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So he hops in his truck to see if he can go find her, probably just hoping that she maybe sprained an ankle or got lost or something. Mm-hmm. Because though she's an avid runner, she is kind of in unfamiliar terrain right now. Because this is Sunday, Christmas Eve, actually, of 1978.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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They learn that in 1977, the year before Kay disappeared, a woman named Marlene Gabrielson told police that John had sexually assaulted her after he picked her up when she was hitchhiking along Highway 20. And her story is horrifying. She said that she fell asleep in the car on the way home, and she woke up to John dragging her out of his truck by her legs.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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And she said that he ripped off her pants, even cut her underwear and boots off with a knife, and then sexually assaulted her. At some point later, she said John seemed to contemplate what to do next with her. Like, it sounds like he was concerned about letting her go, but she pleaded with him, pointing out that she had a new baby.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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John relented, gave her a pair of his pants to wear, and they just like resumed their drive. And despite everything she had just gone through, before John finally dropped her off, Marlene convinced him to give her his phone number by like pretending that she liked him.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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Very. And she's not doing this just so he thinks everything's fine. She's doing it so she can identify him later. Like she wanted to see John punished for what he did to her. And I can only assume police used that number to track John down after she'd gone to the hospital and had done a sexual assault kit. So they had brought John in for questioning at that time.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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But this is where Marlene's tragic story got even more tragic and infuriating. John told police that Marlene came on to him. And despite the bruises and the scratches that Marlene suffered and everything else she did to prove her story, to basically hand them the evidence they need on a silver platter, because he said it wasn't a sexual assault, they believed him and he was never prosecuted.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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Unbelievable. Even worse, the police seem to suggest that maybe it was Marlene's fault. They question her drug use, her drinking, if she was being flirty with John, maybe coming on to him sexually. In Lost Women of Highway 20, Marlene talks about how police made her feel like a liar.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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But they did. And somehow he passed, which probably just helped fuel the police's belief that Marlene was lying. And it also points to the thing we've said so many times, like there are flaws, there are problems with this kind of testing. And there are problems with not believing victims. Like that has very big, very real life-threatening consequences. And the police are learning that.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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But even if they see that incident in a whole new light now, it doesn't change the fact that they still don't have anything to tie him to Kay's murder. And so her case starts to go cold. According to the Oregon Journal, in October, they end up finding Kay's skull about three quarters of a mile from where her clothes and her lower jawbone were found.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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And Noel and Kay are vacationing in this remote area of Oregon called Camp Sherman, which is right off of this big main road known as Highway 20. And they took this little trip as a holiday getaway with some friends, exchanging gifts, sitting by the fire, like singing carols. It was supposed to be this magical time, like doing all the Christmassy things.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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But again, it doesn't give them much of anything. The investigators don't glean anything new from this. So all Kay's husband and her friends can do is wait. And that wait becomes excruciatingly long. I mean, over a decade passes. And in that time, letting John Aykroyd slip through their fingers has dire consequences once again.

Crime Junkie

INFAMOUS: Highway 20

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This time, it's mid-morning on July 11th, 1990, when a 911 dispatcher with the Linn County Sheriff's Office gets a call from a concerned mother named Linda. She tells them that her 13-year-old daughter, Rachanda Pickle, is missing, has been since the day before. And she is worried sick, is sure something is wrong. And it's now been 24 hours, so she's calling to make the report.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

1014.944

Like, we can put you with her before she died when you're saying you weren't. Like, we got you. Yeah. But apparently it's not enough for them. Though they aren't totally walking away either. At one point, I guess they go talk with Robert's mother, Raynell. He had, like, lived with her off and on.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

1035.278

But according to a timeline published by the Spokesman Review, she claims she doesn't know anything either. So, like, I think they're at least trying to dig and, like, build something. But they don't get anywhere, like, at first. But it was worth going to talk to her because a few days later, on August 1st, she contacts police like out of the blue.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

1052.733

And she says, listen, I don't know anything about Kayla's murder. But a couple of years ago, my son came home and he confessed to disposing of a different body. So maybe I should tell you about that. Yeah. You think? Yeah. She says that two years ago, which would have been in 2010, Robert came home acting really anxious.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Now, what dad and later the police that he calls in find in that wooded area, just off of a narrow walking path in a small ditch, is the upper part of a body peeking out from between torn black trash bags. Soon, the area is swarming with officers. Investigators are there, crime scene technicians, you name it.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

1074.671

And eventually he told his mom that these two guys had killed a woman named Heather Higgins and forced him to help dispose of her body. So he put her body in a sleeping bag and dumped her down a steep hill somewhere north of Spokane.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

1095.149

That's what Kayla's found in too, right? Her lower half. Now, Raynell tells police that she didn't come forward then because she frankly just didn't believe him at the time. Like because of his substance abuse, like she didn't trust a lot of what he said and she kind of just chalked it up to him being worked up over nothing.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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But the thing is, 39-year-old Heather Higgins really did go missing back in 2010. And she still hadn't been found by the time they're talking to this woman. By this point, the news that parts of Kayla's body had been placed in a sleeping bag wasn't known to the public either. And investigators don't think it's a coincidence.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

1134.124

And that's not the only similarity between Heather and Kayla either. The investigation into Heather's disappearance was just as lackluster as the police search for Kayla had been, if not more so. Just like Kayla's mom had realized something was wrong, it was Heather's mom, Jackie, who first sounded the alarm. Heather was also going through some turbulence in life when she vanished.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

1158.836

She'd recently been hospitalized and returned home to find that the money that she was going to use to get a new apartment had been stolen. So she had been working on getting a loan when she just vanished, like into thin air. And when her mom realized that she hadn't heard from Heather in a few days, she went over to find her cats alone in the apartment.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

1179.648

So on September 27th, 2010, Jackie reported her daughter missing. But the response made her feel like police just didn't care. According to her mom, they looked at her recent hospitalization for bipolar disorder and a previous DWI that she'd gotten and basically said that Heather could just leave if she wanted to.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

1198.544

And in a public statement about her disappearance, one detective said that she was an alcoholic, which just by the way, wasn't even true, at least according to her mom. And this is like this little stuff that bothers me.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

1210.013

Instead of using her nice college ID photo, which was resent because she was currently in school for journalism, the photo that police decided to use for her missing persons flyer was a mugshot from a prior arrest.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

1230.604

Exactly. I mean, it all made Jackie feel like police were saying that her daughter wasn't worth finding. Yeah. So she started looking for Heather herself, and Jackie spent years doing what police should have, even putting her and her loved ones in dangerous situations to try and track her daughter down, a daughter that she believed was still alive.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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But almost from the beginning, according to her mom, police didn't actually share that belief. In fact, they were confident early on that she'd been killed, possibly by Robert Davis, whose name came up early on. The thing is, they didn't share any of that with Jackie. They kind of allowed her to go on believing that Heather might just come home. Like, they let her believe this for years.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

128.038

And one officer, as he is standing over the remains, spots another bundle of trash bags haphazardly hidden underneath a pile of sticks and branches about four to five feet away. And although he can't see what's inside, it's the right size to be the other half of their victim.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Within like a few months, possibly even the first few weeks. So you see, they learned that the day she went missing, the loan that Heather had been trying to get fell through. So she decided to go into town and pawn some rings. Now, she couldn't drive at that moment. So she went across the street to her neighbor Dawn's apartment to see if she knew of anyone who could give her a ride.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Now, if the name Dawn feels familiar, that's because the Dawn that lived across from Heather was the same Dawn that said she had been assaulted by Robert Davis back in 2007. Oh, my God. I know. And I don't know why, but Dawn gave Heather Robert Davis's phone number. And the last anybody saw of Heather, she was getting into Robert's minivan.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Now, I don't know why Dawn still had Robert's number after what he did to her or why she felt okay giving it, like, that context info to someone else. But Dawn has since passed away, so we couldn't ask her. And no one our team talked to could explain it. It sounds like the nature of their relationship was...

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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complicated obviously like that's probably a massive understatement but regardless when Robert was eventually interviewed by police he admitted to giving Heather a ride that day but he claimed that she got angry with him so he left her on the side of the road in town the end

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Yeah, this is what's so weird. So this is early on, but they don't give Jackie any updates about this. So, like, I think they probably told her early on that they thought she was a runaway.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Jackie is like on her own to do her own thing. They learn this stuff about Robert Davis, but they don't tell her mom this or that they've like if their thinking has changed, they don't tell her. They just let her keep on believing that her daughter might still be out there. And it's not like they aren't in contact with her.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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She told our team that she called investigators every single day because she was investigating on her own. So they could have told her, I mean, countless number of times that they didn't believe Heather was still out there. But for some unknown reason, they didn't. Now, by the time they got around to talk to Robert, it was months after Heather went missing.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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And by then, he'd conveniently sold his minivan and had it straight up crushed.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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There's no getting in that minivan.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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But the thing is, if they had done just a little more digging, they would have found that the rings that she was going to sell that day, those had in fact been pawned, except they weren't pawned by Heather. They were pawned by Robert. But that link wouldn't be connected for years. At the time, police didn't even check the pawn shops. They just let Heather fade.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Now, there isn't any blood anywhere around, which tells them that whatever happened to this poor person, it probably didn't happen here. This is just a dump site. But there's more to collect than just the bags that the victim was found in. Investigators also find a bloody hand towel, a blanket, a black camera strap with teeth marks on it.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Even when her student ID and a butcher knife were found submerged in a river three and a half blocks from where Robert was living at the time, they still did nothing. And they still, even then, didn't tell Jackie anything. And now there are two women, one still missing, one murdered, directly tied to Robert Davis. But there is no arrest.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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And both Kayla and Heather's families are left to try and fit together the pieces. By now, according to Kayla's mom, Martine, they're at least aware of each other. But they never really connect. They're trying to navigate their grief and a system that feels like it's not on their side. That is until early 2013, when a new detective is assigned to Kayla's case.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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His name is Mark Burbridge, and as he's reviewing her autopsy, he can't believe what he sees.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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The autopsy report is sparse, and as Detective Burbridge is comparing the report to the photos that he is seeing of Kayla's body, he can't make sense of it because the original report doesn't contain any mention of the dozens of sharp force wounds that he is seeing, or, by the way, the shoe prints on her chest and leg, or the defensive wounds, or the bruising around her wrist like she had been restrained.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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So he's confused, to say the least, and frustrated. So according to police docs, he tries to go to Dr. Howard, like wanting clarification. I mean, probably really an explanation. But it takes months before Dr. Howard will even speak with him. And when they're finally face to face, Dr. Howard is super defensive.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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He even says that Detective Burbridge is being rude and goes so far as to ban him from the medical examiner's office. What? Yeah, which is not the reaction Burbridge was expecting. But he's not going to give up. Something isn't right here. So he meets with the Spokane County prosecutor, this guy named Jack Driscoll. But Jack isn't much help either.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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He basically says that he's not going to go against what Dr. Howard ruled because if he goes on to say that Dr. Howard's ruling on Kayla's case was wrong, like that's going to call into question all of his other rulings and like open up this can of worms.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Yeah. I mean, if only if it were that straightforward, right? Like, so to me and you, yes, this is a good thing.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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I mean, if you're missing stab wounds, like, you would think Spokane County would want to, I don't know, take care of that. Yeah. But doing that unravels God knows how many convictions. Hmm. Which, again, they might be convictions that are actually like needed. No one's like like it's going to take a lot of work. I mean, no one's saying this is going to be easy to do.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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But to Detective Burbridge, like it needs to be done. Yeah. And he thinks that all of this, like they're just more interested in protecting their people, securing their convictions, their image, whatever, than actually protecting the general public. Doing their job. So he decides to pay a doctor from Seattle to review the autopsy results.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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But according to police documents, those teeth marks look to just be from animals. But the whole thing is that it smells heavily of decomposition. So while they meticulously collect evidence from the forest floor, their victim is sent off piece by piece for an autopsy. And at the examiner's office, the remains are carefully unwrapped layer by layer. They realize that the victim is young.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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And in the meantime, on July 8th of 2013, he conducts a follow-up interview with Robert Davis. At this point, Robert has moved to Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. And he says pretty much the exact same thing. He never had sex with Kayla, he didn't kill her, and he did not dispose of her body. He's still saying this even when he's finally confronted with all of the DNA.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Still denies killing her, still denies disposing of her body. even denies being at the crime scene. Like, this dude doesn't give an inch. So they let him go. Now, on December 31st, 2013, the autopsy results from Seattle come back, and this one could not be more different.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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We actually got our hands on both Dr. Howard's original autopsy and the new report, which was done by a guy named Dr. Carl Wigren. And Britt, comparing these two reports, it's like they're not even talking about the same body. On her upper body alone, Dr. Wigren notes four abrasions, including what looks like a shoe print on her chest and parallel marks consistent with bindings.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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There are 18 sharp force wounds, 16. 16 of which are concentrated on her hands and lower arms as if she was trying to like defend herself. And there are 50 contusions also consistent with defensive wounds, including a black eye.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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And on her lower half, he notes six abrasions, including a chuprin on her left thigh, nine sharp force wounds, and 48 contusions consistent with defensive wounds, which is like,

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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wild to me that we're still saying undetermined undetermined manner of death it like defies logic I know and like listen Dr. Howard's report talked about like some defects like on her hands and fingers like he points out some like cut like defects on her left hand and thumb like four of those and then obviously he like notes the wound where she's cut in half and he makes a note of a stab wound on her thigh which which appears in both reports

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Dude, he had nothing about her having a black eye. He had nothing about her like the injuries on her lower arms or her legs. And what sticks out to me is like the sheer enormity of the wounds in this second autopsy compared to the first like. Again, it feels like you're looking at reports for two different victims.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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And this second doctor, he also notes that he sees no documentation showing like internal exams to like fully rule out sexual assault. Oh, and by the way, they did eventually do like some testing to see if the stuff that the staining was actually bleach. But ultimately that came back inconclusive. Like it doesn't really fall into these reports, but it's worth noting.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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And this second doctor, he couldn't, he like the first, he couldn't determine a specific cause of death. But based on everything he's seeing, this second doctor, this Dr. Wigren says there's no way this isn't a murder.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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So armed with this new report, Detective Burbridge goes to the deputy prosecutor who in turn brings the findings to Dr. Howard, the first M.E., But Dr. Hauer refuses to change the ruling. And his reasoning is that he can't rule out an overdose as her cause of death.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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It's a female in her like early adulthood. She's white with long blonde hair and her body has been cut in half at the waist. Now, starting with her upper body, they find a towel knotted around her neck, covering her lower face with strands of black electrical tape like entangled in it.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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I know. And like literally this makes no sense to anyone in the police department. Like for Detective Burbridge, this should be an open and shut case. Yeah. And in 2014, his supervisor agrees and he gives him permission to write up charging documents for Robert Davis for murder.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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OK, so there were a few searches done by her family. And like the area that Robert alluded to, I guess, is super difficult to search. Like it's all these really steep cliffs. So there were some searches done again, like most by her family. Nothing was ever found. So even even now.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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But still, even without Heather's body or confession, the escalation of Robert's alleged crimes feels super clear to Detective Burbridge. So, like, even if they can't get Heather, like, they know what they're dealing with in Kayla's case. Like, let's at least get him for that. But here's what's wild.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Still, with everything they have, and no matter how clear it feels to the detectives, to the people in the police department, you, me, our listeners, prosecutors refuse to press charges.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Like the word frustrating, it doesn't even cover it. Like it doesn't cover it for how I feel, certainly not for how Detective Burbridge is left feeling. Like he is straight up angry. Kayla's family is angry. And that anger only intensifies when on June 21st, 2014, another woman comes forward saying that she has been attacked by Robert.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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On the evening of the 21st, a woman we'll be calling Sasha was alone in her trailer in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, when Robert entered unexpectedly. Now, she knew who he was. He had been hanging out with a friend of hers. But him showing up unannounced without her friend was strange. Sasha said Robert proceeded to attack her, choking her until she passed out several times.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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And each time she woke up, Robert was sexually assaulting her. And in her gut, she knew that Robert was going to kill her if no one stopped him. Now, thankfully, true hero of the story, her dog was there with her. And this dog began attacking Robert, which is what Sasha believes made him stop. And when she woke up again, according to the court docs, he was running out the door.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Now, thankfully, she didn't suffer any serious physical injuries and she was easily able to identify Robert as her attacker. So he gets arrested and originally charged with first degree attempted murder and burglary, though he pled down to burglary and battery with intent to commit rape. And he ended up getting a sentence of 15 years with the option of parole much sooner.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Now, it's not much time, but while he's in prison, Detective Burbridge has a little more breathing room to, like, get this right. And he gets an early win when the deputy prosecutor tells Detective Burbridge that they're finally going to consider getting another opinion about Kayla's autopsy.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Because they say because Dr. Wigren wasn't an official ME, like he runs a private practice called Wigren Forensic.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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And he had. Like he served as the associate medical examiner for Snohomish County for like a couple of years. It's not like he's just like making up his certification.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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And her clothing, a sweater, T-shirt and camisole have been cut vertically from the bottom up and shoved around her shoulders beneath her body. Her bra, which was also cut in between the cups, is beneath her. Then found in the layers of plastic is her underwear, also cut. And her clothing is discolored. Not from the blood, though. It looks like her clothing is discolored from bleach.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Bingo. which sounds fine, great, whatever, until three days later. That's when the deputy prosecutor says, you know what, actually, never mind, that's not happening. Oh, and don't even bother asking why, because the deputy prosecutor doesn't give a reason. Cool. Yeah. So in a last-ditch effort to try and get something, investigators try to interview Robert Davis again.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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However, he asks for a lawyer and refuses to talk. And that ends up being Detective Burbridge's last attempt to get answers. Because in 2015, he's taken off the case and moved from major crimes to the Special Investigations Unit, which primarily manages drug investigations. Why he's removed? Unclear.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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There's speculation and rumor, mostly stemming from his unyielding pressure on the prosecutor's office. But as with any change of, like, leadership in a case, momentum gets lost when he gets moved. Knowledge gets lost. Kayla and Heather's cases have both had numerous lead investigators assigned to them over the years, each having varying levels of success getting new information.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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And by this point, Jackie, who's Heather's mom, does know that police believe her daughter was killed. Again, I don't know when it happens or how it happens, but by this point, she knows. And even though charging documents are again brought to the prosecutor's office for Kayla's homicide on February 9th, 2017, those charges, again, do not get approved.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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And the reason is that the prosecutor's office cites is a need for more evidence. But all the shadiness, all the dodging of charges, all the protection of the ME's office, that gets challenged in April of 2017. Because that's when the Washington Department of Health launches an investigation into the medical examiner's office.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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You see, they'd received complaints from numerous families who claimed that Dr. Howard and his co-ME, Dr. Sally Aiken, have a history of incorrect rulings when it comes to cause and manner of death. You see, according to more of Thomas Klaus's reporting, Kayla's case is one of several that are brought up in the complaint.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Others include Brenda Thurman, who was shot by her husband in what was initially ruled an accident. And then there's Dr. John Marshall, who was found in the Spokane River with what looks like bruising from being beaten. His death originally ruled an accident, too. Sarah Schmidt was also found in the Spokane River with bruising on her ankles that looked a lot like ligature marks.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Her death is ruled a suicide. And then there's Cindy Lou Zeppenfeld Bergen, whose body was found wrapped in plastic on the side of the road in Idaho after she filed for a protection order to escape domestic violence. Spokane M.E. did the autopsy and ruled her cause of death as a heart attack and therefore ruled her manner of death as natural.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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You got it. Now, of course, the county commissioner makes a statement saying that the county stands behind its M.E.s. Even before the investigation gets underway, which is like a little wild to me. Like, let's let the process do its thing.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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But the thing about this investigation is that even if it reveals that there was something wrong with the rulings, apparently there's no way to get them changed because it's up to the medical examiners to change the rulings, which at least for Kayla's case, we know they've refused to do.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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It doesn't. Like the power is still sitting with the M.E. 's office to make the change. And even if somehow they could have changed the rulings, we know they wouldn't have. Because by the end of the investigation in 2017, the Department of Health ultimately finds that doctors Howard and Aiken, quote, met the standard of care. Which, if you ask me, is a pretty f***ing low standard.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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And it is a slap in the face on top of every other gut punch that these families have experienced. But Kayla's family's fight and Heather's family's fight, it isn't over yet. Because come 2019, Robert Davis is up for parole. And they're ready to do everything in their power to make sure he stays in prison. Kayla's mom and one of her brothers go to the hearing.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Like, that's what the stains look like.

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Jackie, Heather's mom, can't go because she's sick. But she told us that she is so glad both her family and Kayla's family were ready to fight his release. Because according to Jackie, the parole board in Idaho wasn't even aware of Kayla or Heather's cases until their families made them aware. Now, how they didn't know this is beyond me. I don't know if it's because he wasn't convicted of it.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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But once the board finds out, the board asks Robert about Kayla, like in his review. And according to Martine, Robert got mad when they asked. She told our team that his face, like, got bright red. Veins were, like, popping out of his neck. He swore up and down that he didn't know who she was. Which, by the way, is a brand new story. Yeah, he... Because he admitted to knowing her back in 2012.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Right. Ultimately, he gets denied parole, which is a huge win. And Jackie told us that a woman on the parole board promises her and Kayla's family that they will be notified next time he's up for parole, which they're all for, right? Like they're going to fight this.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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They want to keep him in prison for as long as possible to keep him off the streets and to give investigators more time to build their cases. And hopefully they can get him once and for all. If they're working the cases, that is. Because the families don't know.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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By this point, the investigations into both cases have changed hands so many times, it's difficult for them to keep track of who's in charge and what they're doing. Still, though, this was one of the first wins they've had in a long time. And then another one comes in 2021, when both Dr. Howard and Dr. Aiken retire.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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I know. And it's not much better for her lower body. So her lower body, which was in that second bundle, is wrapped not just in plastic bags and the tape, but also an orange sleeping bag with a plaid interior. Now, it is zipped closed with more of that black electrical tape wrapped around it.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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So a new medical examiner, Dr. Veena Singh, is appointed, and she begins revisiting several of the previous ME's rulings, including Kayla's. In possibly the biggest victory her family has gotten, Dr. Singh changes Kayla's manner of death from undetermined to homicide.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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And Kayla's isn't the only case that's amended either. According to Haley Gunther's reporting for KQH, Dr. Singh has changed the ruling on four of Dr. Howard's cases. Which, by the way, like, huge shout out to Haley. She was a huge help in setting us up for success on this story. Like, she made a lot of connections for us.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Anyway, it's difficult to describe the feeling of relief that washes over the family when they hear this news. Like it is the first step in a long journey ahead of them, but it is the step that they've been fighting for like for years. And maybe now, finally things will start falling into place. Except it's never that easy, is it?

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Because when charging documents are again brought forward to the prosecutor's office in 2022, they get denied. And in mid-2024, the family's worst fears come true. Robert Davis is let out on parole. By the way, they got no warning about that. No chance to stand before the parole board and fight to keep him off the streets.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Since 2024, their cases have again been reassigned as the most recent investigator retired. And both families continue to try and fight for justice, although the fight is getting harder the longer it goes on. Heather's mom, Jackie, described living with the pain and the unknowns as a life sentence.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Like instead of the person responsible for her daughter's disappearance serving time, she feels like she is. And Kayla's family worries that they'll never get to see the day when justice is served for everyone who might be involved with Kayla's murder. Kayla's mom, Martine, believes Robert was one of the ones responsible.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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But she can't help but wonder if someone closer to Kayla may have known what happened and maybe won't come forward for some reason. Like, it's a question that has haunted her for years.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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And be sure to listen all the way to the end because the cracks in the system have left a predator out there walking free among us. This is the story of Kayla Williams and Heather Higgins. There are plenty of things that parenting books just can't prepare you for.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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I don't know. I don't know, like, if there are other people involved. Again, Kayla's mom seems to think so. I think the way that, like, police view Elise Robertson. What I picked up is like they think that he did something to Heather. I don't think they like think he was just there when a body was disposed of.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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And in between all of the bag's layers are more towels, a pair of boxer shorts, and some sort of black strap material. And then they find a pair of men's size 36 jeans with a black synthetic belt. Now, whereas her top half was still clothed, even though it was cut, her lower half is completely nude, save for the socks still on her feet.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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That doesn't mean that no one else was involved, but they just think he's far more culpable than just being like a bystander. Now, there have been no more official searches to find Heather's body. Like I said, it's difficult terrain where he said she was. So it's going to be difficult to search.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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And like that's part of the reason that Jackie and her family would be out there doing more, but they literally can't. And without concrete answers, she's left in limbo, or that prison, as she says. Both moms are. Answers and justice feel so close, but still out of reach.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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And they have to live with the knowledge that their daughters were killed, but the system that is supposed to get them justice has just refused to do so. But that grief and frustration is not how either mom wants to remember their girls. Jackie called Heather the defender of the defenseless. She had a heart of pure gold going out of her way to help those experiencing homelessness.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Like I said earlier, she was in school for journalism. She wanted to tell people's stories. And I can't help but wonder where that career would have taken her. And Martine wants Kayla to be remembered as the vivacious, strong-willed young woman with an infectious laugh who dreamed of a career where she could just help people.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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When she went missing, Kayla was working on getting her GED with dreams of going to nursing school. And there was so much she wanted to give of herself, but she never got the chance to. One thing is clear. Something needs to change. In the family's opinion, it's the prosecutor. Today, that prosecutor is a man named Larry Haskell.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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Now, we tried to get in touch with his office, but since it's an open case, they said they wouldn't comment. Just about everyone we spoke to for this episode feels that the prosecutor's office won't take this case because it would mean admitting that the original autopsy report from Dr. Howard was incorrect, which would call into question hundreds of other rulings.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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It would likely cost the city millions. But in my opinion, that's a small price to pay. How many more cases are there like Kayla's where the ruling was wrong? How many dangerous people are still out causing harm? And on the flip side, there could be innocent people sitting in prison. Like the problem goes both ways. This case is solvable. I said it at the beginning.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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And enough time has passed that maybe people who didn't feel like they could come forward and 2010 or 2012 might feel safe to do so today. So we're going to have contact information for the Spokane PD in our show notes if anyone out there knows something about the disappearance of Heather Higgins or the murder of Kayla Williams. And here is my warning to everyone. Robert Davis is still out there.

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MURDERED: Kala Williams & Heather Higgins

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He is living in Iowa while he's on parole with an ankle monitor, according to Kayla's family. An ankle monitor that they say they had to ask for, by the way. They live in fear that he will strike again, and they pray that the right person will do the right thing to get him off the streets. But in the meantime, Crime Junkies, this is where you come in.

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Kayla and Heather's families have been fighting for over a decade for justice. They've lost trust in the people that are supposed to fight for them. So if you want to join in on that fight, my recommendation is to contact the Washington State Attorney General and ask for a review of Kayla and Heather's cases. Nick Brown and his office oversees all of the prosecutors in the state of Washington.

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And if there is one person who can get things moving in the right direction, it would be him. So we're going to have that contact information in the show notes as well. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.

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It's not immediately apparent how long she's been out in the woods or even when she died. I mean, it's been pretty cool in Spokane as winter turns to spring. So despite some decom and some animal activity, she is relatively well preserved. And it's because of that preservation that they're able to quickly identify her via fingerprints as 20-year-old Kayla Williams.

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We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

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Kayla's not completely unknown to police in Spokane. She'd been arrested before, although I can't really find out exactly what for. And I know at one time she had been reported missing by her brother, which was like a little over a month ago. He reported her missing on April 2nd. But they think that she might have actually been missing for a little while by that point.

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You see, her family had gotten worried when she didn't meet her mom, Martine, for church a few weeks in a row. Like, the two of them had this routine. Kayla didn't live at home, but she and her mom always made sure to attend church twice a week with one another.

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Like, this was the thing that provided stability in what was otherwise a pretty turbulent time for Kayla because she'd been struggling with substance use disorder. So, you know, when they finally realized she's gone to report her missing, there had been a little bit of a police search for her, which didn't result in much of anything.

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And the TLDR of all of it is basically that she had been living with a few people in an apartment. One of those people was including her like maybe current, maybe ex-boyfriend, this guy named Matt.

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He was obviously one of the first people that they wanted to talk to, but one of the guys that they were living with said that Matt had moved out of state right around the same time that Kayla went missing. Now, you'll see that if you go out and read about this, but that turned out actually not to be true.

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They ended up tracking Matt down at the apartment that they all shared just a few days later. So Matt said that he hadn't seen Kayla since around the end of March, but he made it clear that he wasn't interested in having her in his life anymore. He allegedly also struggled with substance use disorder, and the last time that he'd seen her, he had been trying to avoid anything or anyone triggering.

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And the story I have for you today is one of the ones that will leave you furious because there should be a conclusion. Police think that they know who did it. But because of a technicality, prosecutors won't prosecute. So two families are left wondering what to do when the people in charge throw their hands up and say there's nothing they can do.

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And Kayla was still using at the time, so I guess he told her to leave the apartment. And that, he says, is the last time he saw her. So because they didn't really get anywhere, the search for Kayla ultimately stalled. But her family never stopped looking for her. So on May 13th, that same family is watching the news. Kayla's mom has it on as her husband is getting ready for work.

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And when she sees a news segment about the body of a young woman being found, she says she, like, knows instinctively that it's her daughter. And later that day, in another moment that no parenting book can ever prepare you for, she opens the door to investigators there to give her the worst news of her life. And they have so many questions, like when, why, who?

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I mean, it's something Martine can't stop thinking about as they're finishing her daughter's autopsy. She and investigators are hoping that the results will answer at least some of the questions, but ultimately it doesn't. In fact, it only results in more questions, because despite police telling the public that Kayla had signs of significant trauma,

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Despite the fact that she was dismembered, despite noting cut-like defects on her hands and a stab wound on her thigh, despite looking as though she had what looks like bleach poured on her, Dr. John Howard can't determine exactly how she died, so he rules her cause and her manner of death as undetermined.

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I get cause if you can't determine the cause of death. But manner? I know.

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So as far as the bleach, so not early on, according to the documents we have. I know testing does happen later. But in that moment, I don't know how much they're even taking the bleach into account, which is like a bananas thing to say. And basically, at first, I guess this guy is like, well, she might have overdosed. And maybe someone she was with might have disposed of her body.

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It is. Not a homicide, though. And also not even, like, something worth picking apart in my mind because, like, hi, you can test for drugs. So, like, let's just do that. Let's stop guessing. So fast forward to when the tox screen comes back. It shows that while she did have meth in her system, there wasn't nearly enough to have killed her.

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Yet, for some reason, this isn't enough to change anything for the M.E. Okay, no overdose, but he still doesn't know the cause. So he doesn't think he can rule on manner, which I have seen trip up so many cases. A lot of times it becomes this like finger pointing game where investigators will kind of wash their hands of it. They're like, well, there's no crime like we can investigate. Right.

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But at least this time around, no one in charge of the investigation, or at least on that side of things, has any doubt about what this is. According to an episode of the show Still a Mystery, titled Depths of Depravity, to them, this is a homicide. And thankfully, at the autopsy, swabs were taken as well as fingernail clippings.

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So they asked for those to be sent off for DNA testing along with all those other items from the scene. And while they wait for results, the investigation keeps moving forward, albeit slowly. They did some initial canvassing around where Kayla's body was found. I don't know what you were picturing initially, but this wooded area isn't remote. We're talking about like a pretty residential area.

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So there were some initial hopes that maybe someone witnessed a person disposing of two large trash bags. But unfortunately, whoever brought Kayla there got lucky. The only thing they took away from their door knocking was the knowledge that this is a pretty quiet spot with the occasional disturbance from teenagers partying in the area.

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Although for the last couple of months, the usual gaggle of teens haven't been coming around. Some neighbors also mention this older man who they say they've seen before and he like makes some people in the area uncomfortable. But spoiler alert, they end up finding the guy and end up ruling him out. So they decide to focus on the people they know who were connected to Kayla. Starting with Matt.

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Matt. Matt mostly repeats what he said when Kayla first came up missing, that he hadn't seen her since like late March. But he clarifies that it wasn't that uncommon for her to leave for days at a time. So not seeing her for a few weeks didn't raise too many red flags for him at first. Even though, by the way, it might be worth mentioning, I have her cell phone. That's what he tells police.

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According to an article in the Spokesman Review, he tells the police that she had left it at the apartment, likely because she had run out of minutes and then just didn't take it with her. A search warrant allows investigators to take a look at her calls and text messages, and they read that one of the last messages she sent was on March 18th to a friend and mentor.

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This friend says that she last saw Kayla on March 18th as well, and she had been living on the streets after a fight with Matt. The friend told police that Kayla hadn't been doing well, but she was going to try to patch things up with Matt.

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Well, that's unclear because I don't know the exact date Matt last saw her. He just says late March. And we tried to talk to him for this episode, but all of our attempts to reach out to him have been unsuccessful.

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Oh, girl, I wish I had more details around her phone. I just don't have anything. Like nothing beyond the information I just gave you has been reported. And anyone we spoke to for this episode couldn't tell us if there was anything else of interest on the phone. If they looked, if they did like a full forensic sweep, like I got nothing.

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Where we do find something of interest is in all those results that come back from the lab. Now, not everything they sent in for testing resulted in something usable. Like, none of the swabs gave them anything that they could work with at the time. The boxer shorts found at the scene, however, are a different story.

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They come back with a full DNA profile that is a match to a 42-year-old man named Robert Davis. And Robert is a bad dude. He has a string of past convictions and allegations behind him, including a really violent sexual assault from 2007.

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Apparently, that April 2007, he had gone into the apartment of a woman named Dawn, and she reported that he choked her into unconsciousness and sexually assaulted her. According to Thomas Klaus's reporting for the Spokesman Review, she survived, and a sexual assault kit proved his DNA was all over her. But for some reason, he was never officially charged with anything.

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And I guarantee you what's not in the book is how to talk to your 12-year-old after they discover human remains in the woods. That is exactly the scenario one father found himself in on Mother's Day 2012 after his son came running home telling him that He and his two friends found something in the woods by their house in Spokane, Washington.

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I don't know, because some of the reporting on this is like conflicting. Like I've seen some reports saying that Dawn didn't want to push forward. And then I've seen others where the investigators and the prosecutors just dropped the ball.

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Yeah, and not just the boxers. So here's the other thing. They found two major DNA profiles under Kayla's nails, too. And the direct comparison proves that one of those is this Robert guy's.

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Well, the other profile belongs to Matt. Which might not be all that surprising. I mean, remember, she'd been talking about patching things up with him to her friend. Like, we know they have a relationship or had. And we still don't know when she died. So if it was right after she saw him, that might explain it.

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I mean, having Robert's DNA under her nails and his boxers and knowing his history, like, they're much more interested in him. Even more so when a bunch more from the scene gets tested and it all keeps coming back as a match to him. The black electrical tape around her neck, those jeans, that camera strap found near her body, it all has his DNA on it.

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Now, I do need to mention that there is one other profile found on the fly of the boxers. That profile does get matched to a guy named David. But as far as I can see, his DNA isn't anywhere else on her body or the other pieces of evidence.

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And based on the police docs that we have access to and the interviews that our team conducted for this case, it seems like he's never been considered a person of interest in Kayla's death.

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Yeah, it is all about Robert Davis. So on July 25th, this is more than two months after Kayla's body was found, they track him down and speak with him. Robert explains that he does know Kayla, but not very closely. He says that he only knows her through Matt. He would purchase drugs from Matt. And the few times that he did so, Kayla was there too. But that was it. He says they never hung out.

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They never had sex. Although he does admit that he probably wouldn't tell police if they had had sex.

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I mean, it's honest, but, like, here's where it gets weird. If investigators confronted him about his DNA being freaking everywhere, it is not in the documentation I've seen. And so he's not arrested.

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Because, and this is where we get our hiccup that comes back to bite us, even though they have investigated. And even though they have linked all this stuff in and around the bags with her dismembered body to a very bad guy known for very bad stuff. It's not a homicide. Technically, there isn't a murder, right? Which makes no sense to me.

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And it seems like this was no planned holiday either. Lance's girlfriend tells him that she didn't even know anything about this trip, like he didn't even know. mentioned that he was going to go to St. Lucia. What? Yeah, so when detectives end up reaching him on the island, he agrees to come back to Houston.

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He sits down for an interview, and when they ask him for a DNA sample, he's cool with that too. When the comparison gets run, Lance is ruled out. He's not their guy. Which leads me to Aaron, who ironically enough is the kid of a cop or maybe a former cop, not totally sure. He is Cheryl's ex from like middle school and high school, and he doesn't share Lance's cooperative spirit.

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I'm not sure if he officially lawyers up or if he talks to investigators or any of that. All I know is that when they ask him for a DNA sample, he refuses. Doesn't give a reason, just no. Shane told us that the cop dad is straight up offended that they even would ask. So there's that.

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She also told us this weird story about Aaron showing up at their house like the day after Cheryl died and kind of just standing there like at the end of their driveway, like didn't say a word, didn't come any closer, just stood there. That's so weird and kind of creepy. Detectives think so, too. So does Barbara. Shane said she actually kind of got it. She told us she always liked Aaron.

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He'd always been decent to her sister. And she's like, I think he was in shock, like kind of like the rest of us. The standoff between detectives and Aaron over his DNA, this goes on for years. And, like, on the one hand, totally his right. But on the other hand, like, you got to know this is going to look bad. And what are you hiding? Why not give your DNA? Right.

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Because of all the male friends and acquaintances that they approach during their investigation and in these years, and there are a lot, he is the only one who won't give a sample ever. And they're not getting hits on anyone else that they're testing. And so for years, everyone is side-eyeing this guy. But you can't hide forever. Though in a lot of cases we've covered, actually, you can.

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But it's very frustrating. But not here. Not with this case. Detectives, again, years later, finally get a warrant for Aaron's DNA. Hopes are high that they're about to solve this case that has haunted the city once and for all. When the results come back, everyone is probably holding their breath. But Aaron is not a match.

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If she was going to like catch a ride or not go or not be there, like a heads up would have been nice.

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That's a big if, isn't it? And to state the obvious, that same logic applies then to all the men who have been ruled out like so far through DNA comparison. Like unless you've got an airtight alibi or something, which I'm sure some of them do. But I don't have insight into any of that. Who was ruled out through alibi? Who had an alibi when their DNA was ruled out? I don't know.

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All I know is at some point in the 90s, the suspect profile does get entered into CODIS when CODIS becomes a thing, but there are no hits in CODIS. And that activity on the case, it kind of just like ebbs and flows then throughout the years. Like it picks up a little bit in the mid 90s when a reward is announced, but like nothing happens. It's just like dead end after dead end.

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No, like that's what makes this case so challenging. It truly felt completely wrong. Like this killer blew into town, committed one of the most heinous crimes these officers would see in their careers, and then was gone before the sun came up, never to return again. Or at least that's how it seemed for many years. But one day, in early 2001... Detectives get this very strange letter in the mail.

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But now Shane is running late, so she kind of just like scoots without giving it much more thought. At least not until she gets a call at work that morning at around 10 a.m. And it's a friend and a co-worker of Cheryl's, and she wants to know where Cheryl is because she just hasn't shown. And that's when Shane's stomach drops, although she's not quite sure why.

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It's addressed to HPD, but the return address says Cheryl Henry and Andy Atkinson. No address, but I'm going to have you read it for us because, I mean, this is wild.

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I think so. And a non, I think it's just supposed to be anonymous. But it's weird, right?

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They do. They do exactly as they're told. They publish their reply in the Houston Chronicle, basically like, we hear you. We want to play ball. Tell us what to do next kind of thing. Yeah. They keep all of this on the down low. Like the public doesn't know a thing about this letter at the time.

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So like even when they publish their reply, the public doesn't even know what they're looking for or to look for it. But when they publish this, it's just radio silence. They never hear from that letter writer again. They even try having the envelope process to like see if there's DNA or fingerprints, whatever. That's a dead end too. And the case is more than 10 years cold by this point.

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And once again, like after this letter, when this leads nowhere, like they're out of leads. Now, I haven't touched on this yet, but Detective Belk, remember, he has been on this case from like day one. Over the years, he builds a super solid relationship with Cheryl's family. And what are solid relationships based on? Trust. How do you earn trust? Transparency.

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And that's what he's been giving them. Like, he doesn't share anything that could jeopardize the investigation, of course, but he has been keeping them in the loop, step by grueling step, which has given them... like, all along this sense of, like, yes, Cheryl's case is actually being actively worked by one of the best. She's not forgotten. Yes, which is, like, what so many families want.

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And in all honesty, this case is, like, his great white whale, and he really wants to solve it before he retires. And, you know, because of all this transparency that he was giving them, Shane actually shared a 2005 email chain with us. It was between them and Detective Belk, or Detective Belk and Barbara. And...

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In this, Detective Belk lists out all of the men who have been excluded based on the DNA evidence, which at that time was 17 names deep. He even assures them that in this list, the infamous railroad killer Rafael Resendez has been ruled out thanks to CODIS. Now, just for clarification, like no one has placed this guy in Houston at the time of the murders as far as I know.

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But like I know he was in the state in July of 91 when he killed a man in San Antonio. And that's like three and a half hours away from Houston. But like, duh, he's the railroad killer. Right. Like dude got around. I don't have any context about like how or why or when he slid on the investigation's radar. So giant grain of salt here. I was just like, I was surprised to see his name on that list.

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I thought it was worth mentioning. But here's his name of people who are ruled out. They're obviously trying. They're working hard. By 2007, though, Detective Belk has come to terms with the fact. that his dreams of solving the case before he retires actually might elude him. He's been with HPD by that point for 20 years and like it's his time.

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Because she knows that Cheryl was out the night before with her new boyfriend, Andy Atkinson. Like, Shane had actually been out with them, too. She dipped around 11 to give the lovebirds some, like, time alone, some space. So in her mind, the most likely scenario is that her sister just overslept or something. But still, Shane can't kick this uneasy feeling.

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So he turns in his badge and gun admitting this kind of defeat for him. Like his great white whale got away. But to be a fly on the wall when his phone rings the very next week and he's told that this could be it. They finally got a hit in CODIS after all these years, except there's always an except, right? The hit isn't a person that they've linked to his case.

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They've linked his case to another case. A brutal, like with a capital B, sexual assault case also there in Houston. So this guy is still there? Not so fast. The sexual assault wasn't recent. In fact, it happened two months before Cheryl and Andy were killed.

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I have no idea why, but the victim's sexual assault kit was never processed for 17 years.

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Yes. And it wasn't the only one sitting untested either. I mean, far from it. Although that's like a whole nother podcast. Now, the good news in this, though, is the victim in that sexual assault case was still alive when detectives went and tracked her down in Galveston County.

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Her story is so basically she got off work as a dancer at a club at around two o'clock in the morning, one morning in June of 1990. According to reporting by Lindsay Wise in the Houston Chronicle, she was staying at her pilot boyfriend's place and he was off like flying a plane somewhere. So she came home to an empty house, apartment, whatever. Or at least it should have been empty.

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So she walks in, kicks off her shoes, has a bite to eat downstairs, and then heads upstairs to go to bed. And that's when this man lunged out at her from a dark room. I mean, it is the stuff of actual nightmares. And here, I think the best thing to do is just have you read an account from Wise's reporting.

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When the whole thing was over, he forced her down onto the floor and told her that she better stay there because he might be gone in minutes, he might not be, and it would be bad for her basically if she like got up while he was still there. So when she finally does work up the courage to get up, she finds that her phone line had been disconnected.

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So when they're piecing this together from this victim like 17 years later, there's something like weird that pops out in her interview because they learn that she had actually worked for Andy's dad, Garland. And this is at a different club than I believe that she, like, the one at the time. But guess who worked as a bouncer at Garland's Club every so often? Andy.

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There was also this mention in KHOU that the first victim said the perp had this, quote, like, very forceful military-type stance. So people start to wonder if maybe, maybe this guy was a bouncer, maybe he was a security guard like Andy. Is there a reason, though?

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So she actually asks for permission to leave work early. She's told no, though, which I feel like is pretty messed up, like if you think your sister is missing. And before long, like the whole family knows what's going on. The whole family is worried. And Shane just wants to join Cheryl's friends and family who are already out there looking for her.

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Totally. I mean, I think I think the reason they're coming up with this is like the combo of like the dark or uniform like clothes. But I mean, like, absolutely. He could have just been a customer or maybe he wasn't part of the club scene at all. I don't know.

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Except as far as investigators are concerned, the possible connections only get stronger when they factor in that Cheryl had worked at another club for a short period of time. Like she and a close friend had applied to be bartenders or like cocktail waitresses or whatever, like I think it was like kind of like a mutual dare.

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That's what I thought, too. Like the suspect pool just got like so small. And so the media goes wild with this when they find out. However, like all these years on, there hasn't been anyone in particular that has popped out from that scene. And actually, Cheryl's family swears that too much has been made of this whole thing.

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Shane told us that Cheryl worked, like, a few shifts the summer before she was killed at a club. So, like, this is, like, a year plus prior. And she decided really fast it, like, just wasn't for her.

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Right.

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Possibly, except there's something that confuses me about that. So the dancer, the thing I haven't told you, she got a good look at the guy, albeit he had like a smushed face because of what he was wearing. She definitely heard his voice, but she didn't recognize him either, like not as an employee at the club, not as like a regular customer.

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In fact, she tells HPD that she had always assumed her attacker was someone from a moving company that she had beef with. So who knows? What we do know is that She sits down with HPD's forensic artist. She has a composite sketch drawn of the man that she can still picture all these years later. She says he's tall. He has olive skin, dark hair.

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And as Michelle Homer and Sherman Chow report, she thinks he was somewhere in his like late 20s, maybe early to mid 30s.

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I'm always skeptical of security guards who are like the first on the scene. And HPD was too. Like he was actually one of the guys who was ruled out with DNA. So probably one of the first, I would assume. So not him. But whoever this guy is, who attacked our first victim and then Cheryl and Andy, he's a ghost. The sketch that's published in 2008 doesn't generate any promising leads.

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And that, in 2008, was the last real update in this baffling case.

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INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders

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So girl is out the door the second her shift is up, racing to the family home where her mom, Barbara, and her stepdad, Dan, are waiting anxiously. Now, by now, hours have passed since everyone has realized that Cheryl was missing.

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If they did, it never made it into reporting. And keep in mind, just how much Lake Waco unraveled is in the eye of the beholder. And if the beholder is the great state of Texas, it never unraveled at all. But sure, Munir Deeb won his appeal. He was acquitted at a retrial. But the convictions of the other three defendants were upheld.

Crime Junkie

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And the official party line is that they all died in prison, guilty men, including David Spence, who was executed in 97 for his supposed involvement. And if you remember, like there have been a few attempts pushed by like private parties to test DNA evidence in the Lake Waco case, which there is DNA evidence in the Lake Waco case.

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But all of those have either been unsuccessful or have stalled for reasons that are like too convoluted to get in here. Again, go listen to the episode. The long and the short of it is, as far as I can tell... No DNA profiles from Lake Waco have ever been entered into CODIS. I don't even know if they were fully processed because, again, there was no CODIS when Andy and Cheryl were murdered.

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Lake Waco was even years before that. And at that point, it was closed. Yeah. And to me, this is like baffling. I can't even understand why they wouldn't. But this goes back to like the whole first case where it's like they want to be right more than they want to find the truth.

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But Cheryl and Andy's case, this case, is still unsolved today. Before you ask, yes, they have considered genetic genealogy. It might even be in the works. Or not IgG exactly. A lot of reporting seems to conflate familial DNA with genetic genealogy. And the HPD declined to give us a comment, so, like, I couldn't get a ton of clarity.

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And actually, to be exact, they told us they had to respectfully decline to comment due to the sensitivity of the investigation. They didn't elaborate on that choice of words. So we tried reaching Detective Belk, too, who was retired. We couldn't get a hold of him. And in all the years, like, since Belk left, I think things have kind of broken down between HPD and Cheryl's family.

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So they're not even in the inner circle at the moment. Which to me doesn't feel like an option. Like, you don't have to be on the inner circle, but I think they deserve a yes or no. Like, are you using this new technology to solve my family member's case or not? That seems like it should be a basic right for a family to get. Now, I mentioned earlier that Garland passed away super recently.

Crime Junkie

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Well, so that's the thing. No one can find Andy either. And by the time Shane gets home, she is ready to break glass. Like, look, guys, we need to call the cops. Something is wrong. And Barbara doesn't need convincing. So the police are called and a missing persons report is filed.

Crime Junkie

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When I read his obituary, I had to like... oh, it was tough to get through because, like, when his final wishes are mentioned, including his wish to be buried next to his son back home in North Carolina, like, oh, it's tough.

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And I mention that because I think it's easy for people to overlook just how radically the loss of a child, especially in, like, such a horrific way, impacts, like, every last second of your life for your afterlife, too, like, whatever you think that is. Like, his final wishes were his testament to that, like, that, like, it literally followed him to his grave.

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Once you've become the parent of a murdered child, like there is no unbecoming it. You have joined the worst club on earth and you're like stuck. And of course it goes so far beyond the parents too. Like, I mean, take Shane and her younger twin brother and sister, Chris and Meredith. They're 12 years younger than Cheryl, nine years younger than Shane.

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And Shane says that the second that she and Cheryl met them, and I say met, like, you know, they're newborns, you know what I mean? But the second they met them, It was just like kismet. They had like found each other's soulmate, she said. Like that's how it felt. Cheryl ran straight toward baby Chris and Shane ran straight toward baby Meredith. And from that day on, that's like how it was.

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Cheryl and Chris, Shane and Meredith. Until one day it wasn't. And it devastates Shane to know that Chris lost who was his soulmate that day in 1990. And it just feels like it's the wrong word to use for this, but like so unfair. Yeah. So I'm going to close out this episode with the same plea I make at the end of every unsolved case.

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Someone knows something confessed to someone or was confessed to. And if that's you, crime junkies, please call the Houston Crimestoppers tip line at 713-222-8477. Garland Atkinson died without ever finding answers or justice or peace. But maybe the loved ones who are still alive today won't have to.

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In honor of Andy and Cheryl, we made a donation to the National Organization of Parents of Murdered Children. We'll link out to them in the show notes. We encourage anyone who can to do the same. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.

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We'll be back next week with another episode. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

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And then Shane is like right back out the door, ready to hit the city streets with Cheryl's friends, searching for the couple and for Andy's white Honda, which they were in the night before. But nearly four hours later, they are no closer to finding them. So Shane's heart skips a beat when she walks back in and sees her mom on the phone looking worried.

Crime Junkie

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And she can only hear one side of the conversation, but it feels bad. It's like, yes, yes. Yes, that's my daughter. Where are you? We'll come right now. After what feels like an eternity, Barbara hangs up and announces that it was a security guard on the phone. And I guess this guy works for a local food distributor, and he called because he found Cheryl's purse with her number inside.

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And it was on the floorboard of an abandoned white Honda. So this place that they go to, it's this really undeveloped area near the Cisco office. The Cisco is the building the security guard worked at. And it's on this dark, desolate street, which is known to people because it's known as Lover's Lane. And it also runs along this big open field leading into a big wooded area.

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And it's popular with young locals for obvious in-the-name reasons. And Shane says that it doesn't strike her as super weird that the couple would have gone there. I mean, they're both living with family. 22-year-old Cheryl with her mom, her stepdad, and her little Brady Bunch-like kind of family. And 21-year-old Andy, who is new to Houston, he's living with his grandmother.

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So in less than two weeks, Cheryl was actually planning on moving in with Shane, like they were going to move in together. But until then, privacy was a hot commodity. So heading out to Lover's Lane checks out for the couple. But what the guard hadn't found anywhere near the car was Cheryl or Andy.

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I thought the same thing, but Shane actually gave us a rundown of the day, and it makes a little more sense the way that she explains it. I guess the guard had found the car for the first time, like, way earlier in the day on his rounds, but he wasn't concerned. Until it was still there. Hours later, right. And so that's when he decided to check it out.

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And the windows were rolled down, the seats were reclined, And the key was in the ignition in the idle position.

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Right, red flags, which is why he called them. So that's the scene when Cheryl's family and friends start showing up, desperate to find some sign of the missing couple. And right away, they zero in on some cigarette butts stained with lipstick on the ground near the car. The lipstick looks a whole lot like it was Cheryl's. And when they peek inside the car...

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They see something that the security guard hadn't mentioned, something more ominous than lipstick stains on cigarette butts. They see deep, dark stains on the inside of the driver's door.

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Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers.

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They're not sure. but it looks an awful lot like blood. So much so that they do a kind of like back away slowly kind of thing. Like the last thing they want to do is contaminate what could be evidence.

Crime Junkie

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Well, in this area, there are no streetlights and it's dark by now. So my guess is that the headlights from all the cars that are now there from everyone who came, maybe he's making it easier to see. They also probably are like bringing lights in. I don't know. Hmm. whatever they have is definitely more light than, like, a lone patrol car would have provided.

Crime Junkie

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And the story I have for you today is one of Houston's most brutal cold cases, one that still haunts the city to this day. But as we crime junkies know, cold doesn't mean unsolvable. And hopefully, that's where you all come in. This is the story of Andy Atkinson and Cheryl Henry.

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And Andy's car battery is dead from the car being left in idle, so there probably were no overhead lights, like, at the time. Now, in 1990, no one has a cell to call 911, and by the time they see all of this, the security guard is, like, on the other side of that big field, walking the tree line with one of Cheryl's friends. They're just, like, searching over there.

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So Shane races to the Cisco building with Cheryl's best friend, where they ask the front desk person to call 911. And then they wait and wait and wait for like 30 or 40 minutes. But no one shows up.

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No cops, no first responders, no fire trucks, nada. So the girls have to actually go back and have them call 911 a second time. And this time the response is immediate and overwhelming.

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Like that, yeah. So this army of cops and first responders get to work. They search with helicopters up in the sky. They have scent tracking canines on the ground, like the works. And a little after 11 p.m., Shane watches a scene unfold. And she told us that to this day, it like. plays out in her mind. It is pure chaos. There's just so many people bustling around.

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She was like walking up to her dad in a daze when out of the corner of her eye, she sees an officer say something to her mom. And then she just hears this blood curdling scream. And to Shane, it looks like the officer like catches her mom from falling when she howls. And it's like there are no words. It's just these like guttural, primal shrieks.

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And Barbara actually says later in reporting for KHOU 11 that the officer holding her up is also holding her back from running towards the area across the field where there's just this like sudden flurry of activity. And Shane can't even process it all. She turns to ask her dad what's wrong, like what happened? Why is everyone so upset all of a sudden?

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And I don't know if he's been briefed or if he's just like putting two and two together. But he responds with the last two words that Shane is prepared to hear. She's gone. And in the blink of an eye, investigators surround them, like corralling them towards their car saying like, listen, we're so sorry, but like you have to leave now. This is a crime scene.

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And the entire family is thinking like, how? How can they leave Cheryl out there? But they don't have a choice. So they go and investigators have to get to work. Jill Tyra reported for Wilmington Morning Star that Cheryl's body had been found by a scent tracking dog about 200 yards from Andy's car, just barely into the wooded area past the field.

Crime Junkie

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When she's found, she's naked, lying face down on the ground, and her hands are actually bound behind her back with rope. And she has what looks like jagged wounds to her head and her neck. And her throat has been slashed. And her killer, it seems, made a half-hearted attempt to conceal her body under some pieces of like wood from this like rotting fence.

Crime Junkie

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And then they find her clothes nearby, a single $20 bill as well. Her pretty turquoise summer dress with like red accents had actually been cut from her body. And Shane thinks maybe her underwear had been too, she told us, which suggests to investigators that whatever horrors Cheryl had been met with probably involved a sexual assault.

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Now, at this time that they find Cheryl, there's still no sign of Andy, though as they secure the scene and get Cheryl to the morgue, searching for him does continue. But by the wee hours of the morning, they decide they need to break till sunrise. This is all absolute torture for Andy's dad, Garland.

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He got to the scene not long before Cheryl's body was found, and he, like, set out walking the tree line, too, only to be hustled away almost without explanation. Garland passed away actually recently in October of 2024. But I found this interview he did with Linda Sheldon Fell for a series that she hosts called Moments of Hope.

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And when he's talking to her, he gets choked up because he talks about this HPD officer who actually asked to stay at the scene until the search could pick back up at sunrise. And he explains that at the first hint of daylight, that officer starts walking the same tree line that Garland walked multiple times the night before.

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taking things in, looking for anything that might have been missed in the dark. I mean, looking for Andy. And out there... All alone, it's that officer who stumbles on this grisly scene. Because there Andy is, sitting at the base of this enormous tree, tied to the tree with rope. His legs like stretch out in front of him and he's facing the woods.

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And like Cheryl, his throat was slit so deeply though that he was nearly decapitated.

Crime Junkie

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Yeah. I thought the same thing. And listen, for anyone who hasn't listened to our Lake Waco episode, so it was like a two-parter that we did recently. I'll try and link out to it in the notes or whatever. But I agree. It's got some like eerie similarities to this case. Like the second I heard about Andy, that's what I thought about. But... You got to think about this.

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No one at the time is thinking there's a possibility of a connection because by the time Cheryl and Andy were murdered, they already had people in prison for the Lake Waco case. I was going to ask about the timing. Right. Now, knowing what I know now, to me, that means nothing. But back then, no one is screaming serial killer.

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But to go back to Andy, and we can touch on this Waco stuff maybe later. Andy's fully clothed. His hands are bound behind his back. And where the injuries to Cheryl's neck were kind of like jagged and imprecise, I guess Andy's throat had just like one clean slash.

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I don't know exactly. I've seen like everything from like 75 yards to 150 yards. I don't know for sure. What I do know is that Jill Tyer's report says there aren't any obvious defensive wounds on Andy. It says the same about Cheryl, actually. But we actually reviewed both autopsy reports, and I don't think that's actually accurate for her. Like, girl went down fighting.

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And there's this weird thing about the crime scene that I haven't mentioned. I'm not sure when investigators notice it, like before or after Andy's body is found, I mean. But reporting for KHOU 11 says that a golf club and golf balls from Andy's car had been like laid out in the field in like this line area.

Crime Junkie

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that was pointing to Cheryl's body, which to me is just like extremely weird and clearly like someone wanted them to be found.

Crime Junkie

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Now, I think it's helpful at this point if we talk through the scene in terms of like likely series of events because, spoiler alert, answers are hard to come by in the coming years. And there's not a ton of reporting on how it all would have unfolded. The broad strokes are this –

Crime Junkie

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The thinking is that there's some kind of blitz attack when the two are in the car and somehow they're then taken to the tree that Andy was tied to.

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That's something that investigators are going to debate for years. It could be either, I think. Again, I think the thing that's clear is that it started with the attack on Andy in the car because of all the blood that's on the door. Right. Right. One way or another, their hands get tied behind their back. Remember, Andy doesn't have defensive wounds.

Crime Junkie

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So either he's cooperating because, again, there's a threat to hurt Cheryl or him, or he's incapacitated and can't even fight back. And then Cheryl either makes a run for it and they catch up to her or they walk her to a different area. But when they get her over there, they cut off her clothes, assault her and kill her there where she was found.

Crime Junkie

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According to reporting for KHLU 11, investigators tell Garland that they do think for some reason that she was killed first. I don't know their reasoning. That's never fully explained. But that's the theory.

Crime Junkie

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Yes and yes. Even though 1990 is super early for DNA science, the detective who works this case the longest, this guy named Detective Billy Belk, He knows what a powerful tool DNA is shaping up to be. So from, like, day one, he asks the higher-ups to have evidence processed at this special lab that has the tech to detect DNA.

Crime Junkie

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When 19-year-old Shane Henry pulls up to give her older sister Cheryl a ride to work on the morning of August 23rd, 1990, she does what most teenagers do in the pre-cell dark ages. She lays on the horn and waits. Shane's got to get to work herself, so she's like a little peeved when she has to go inside. More peeved when she realizes that Cheryl isn't even there.

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Expensive, right. You're not wrong. But you know the saying, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. So Detective Belk decides to shoot his, and it works. He gets the okay. The lab hits full. They're able to build a suspect profile from the semen in Cheryl. But downside of early days DNA, no database. There's nothing to compare it to. Right.

Crime Junkie

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No amount of evidence is going to replace the grueling work of boots on the ground investigating. So detectives start interviewing family and friends and they start working their way out from there. Now, neither family knows of anyone who would want to hurt Cheryl or Andy. They're both really good kids. They weren't wrapped up in anything shady. And everyone loved them.

Crime Junkie

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But Cheryl's loved ones do offer up a couple of names that pique detectives' interest. Let's call them Lance and Erin. So Lance is the boyfriend of a friend that Cheryl had been kind of on the outs with recently. Dude, like, I guess skipped town the morning after Cheryl was found. More than the town, he skipped the whole country, like took off for St. Lucia.

Crime Junkie

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Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers.

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And this guy tells investigators that this car has been sitting in the same spot at Riverwood Apartments for at least a couple of weeks.

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Well, according to David, the guy contacts police because he saw something on the news about Marcus's disappearance and the car. So maybe he had only just realized. I mean, again, it's not getting bad about this car. It's just kind of been there. And then once they make known what car everyone's looking for, he's like, oh, that's the car. Does Marcus know someone who lives at this complex?

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No, so that's the thing. As far as anyone knows, Marcus has zero connection to this complex. And while investigators don't find any signs of violence in the car when they look at it, like there's no blood or anything like that, the fact that it's just sitting there, abandoned, makes them think something bad must have happened to Marcus. I mean, if he wanted to take off and start a new life, like,

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MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

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The car is the thing you need, right? Or if you're going to leave your car behind, just leave it parked at your place. Why drive 20 miles and then ditch it at this random apartment complex? And what's even more wild is apparently someone had been driving the car around.

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MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

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The maintenance man tells detectives that he saw this middle-aged guy occasionally using it before it was left there for good around mid-June. So somebody who was definitely not 23-year-old Marcus. Right. Now, Detective Filter says that they never identified who this mystery driver was.

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MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

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They're not local. They're in southeast Michigan while Tawani and Marcus both live in Nashville, Tennessee. Marcus had actually moved to Nashville to attend Tennessee State University, TSU. But even with the distance, like his family talks to him pretty regularly. So Tawani is hoping that they might know where he is. But it turns out they haven't heard from him either.

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But he also says that there could be explanations that don't necessarily include this driver being the one who did something to Marcus. Like he says, there is a world, right, where someone just handed this person the car without telling them anything about Marcus. Like could have been someone who didn't realize what they were driving around until they had found out it belonged to a missing person.

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MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

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And then when they did, like that's when they left it there and didn't go back for it.

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MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

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It wasn't locked. Okay. But Detective Filter couldn't find anything in the reports that indicated if the keys were in it or not. And the maintenance man had no clue who the driver was, by the way, like hence the vague description. And this is a guy, the maintenance guy, he's like around a lot. And he's like, I don't recognize him. I hadn't seen him around before.

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MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

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No idea why he was in the complex at all.

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MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

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And if they did have something to do with it, right? And it's not just like a car that was given to them. Or even if, again, they now know it belongs to a missing person. Like, I don't think they're going to be like fessing up to knowing him. Right? Right. I don't know. All the things are possible. It's also possible that the canvassing they did was just light. Again, maybe people were lying.

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MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

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Or option C, I just truly don't know. But they're hopeful that now that they have the car, maybe they can find the driver another way. And maybe through forensic evidence. Right. So police have the Plymouth towed to their lab and inside they find a gun that's tucked under the driver's seat. Now, is this more evidence of Marcus's double life?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

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Like, did the gun belong to the person who was driving the car? Did it belong to Marcus? Like, couldn't tell you because it doesn't look like the gun was actually registered to anyone. Though it seems like from, you know, what we learned from Detective Filter that everyone assumes the gun was Marcus's.

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MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

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They also managed to lift two fingerprints from the car, one from inside the driver's side window and then another from a rented VHS tape that they find in the car. And the print from the tape leads nowhere. The detective told us they confirmed it belonged to an employee at the video rental place, which is like, give me an older sentence.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

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And the fingerprint on the window, they eliminated Ethan and Tawanya as the sources of it. But they didn't eliminate anyone else. They couldn't determine who it belonged to. Here's the wild part to me. They said it could be Marcus's because Detective Filter says they don't have his prints on file. Like, here's where I get a little skeptical.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

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Like, sure, Marcus was never arrested, so his prints weren't in the system. Right. But they have access to his apartment. Like, couldn't they have lifted his prints from there to compare?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

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Those are the only prints that were identifiable, right?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

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Yeah. Detective Filter told us the car was examined meticulously, is what he said, and that it didn't appear to be wiped down or anything like that. That's a question we asked. But he says he also can't say for sure. Again, he wasn't on the case back then. So from what I can tell, those are the ones that they were able to pull.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

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Now, according to what his dad David told our reporter Nina, when he got that first call from Tawania, he understood her concern. Like, Marcus going MIA, even to him, is unheard of. But, you know, he tries to reassure her at first. Maybe Marcus just got held up somewhere. It'll be fine. Just, like, give it a beat.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

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And here's the thing, Prince aside, what really concerns investigators is what they don't find in the car, which is any proof that Marcus was alive after June 8th. All of the receipts, everything in the car predates his disappearance. Now, meanwhile, so they find this. Marcus's family is back in Michigan at this point trying to process their new reality.

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MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

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To David and Jerry, each revelation about their son feels like another piece of the puzzle, one that they never thought they would have to solve. His student loan notices are starting to come in the mail, which is this reminder of a life that he was supposed to be building. And there's something else that's coming in, something far stranger than student loan bills.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

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Shortly after their son goes missing, Jerry and David start getting these strange phone calls on their home phone in Michigan. The phone will ring and ring, but when they pick up, it's nothing. Just silence on the other end. And Jerry, they don't just like say hello and stop talking. I mean, Jerry pleads with the caller like Marcus, if this is you, please just say something.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

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But whoever is on the other end never speaks. And Felicia remembers it happening like two or three times in those first couple of months. And according to an article by Jax Miller for Oxygen Network, Marcus's son's mom was getting the same kind of unsettling, quiet calls. Do police try to trace these calls? Not that I'm aware of.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1426.501

Like, I don't know if they even try to begin with or if the problem was like, from what I can tell, there's no pattern to this or anything. So I don't know if they just think they're weird or if they just didn't care enough to do it. I don't know. But these calls do give his loved ones hope that Marcus is still out there maybe, maybe still alive. Investigators, though, they are not as optimistic.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1450.779

The calls are, like I said, super sporadic. Months will go by without a single one. And in that time, the leads are even fewer. So almost as quickly as it all begins, the case goes cold. Police don't have enough to work with, no real trail to follow. All of the fragments that they've uncovered about Marcus haven't even fit together into any kind of coherent picture.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1474.36

No one they speak with seems to have the whole story. Well, almost no one. They're still pretty sure that Ethan knows way more than he's letting on. Maybe he doesn't know exactly what happened to Marcus, but Detective Filter believes that he had some idea of what happened or who might have been involved.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1496.035

Because even though he was upfront about, you know, selling weed, for whatever reason, after that and beyond that point, it appears that he kind of just shut down. And while it's possible that given time, he might have decided to share more, that is a chance that he doesn't get. Because little do detectives know, they are about to have a new case to work. And their victim will be Ethan.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

151.561

But Tawania says that she wants to go to Marcus's duplex apartment to just check on him. So David tells her, like, OK, just, like, keep me posted. And meanwhile, he and Jerry start making a series of unsuccessful calls to Marcus themselves trying to reach him. So when Twania pulls up to Marcus's apartment, his car, this red 1995 Plymouth Neon, isn't there.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1522.526

So let me take you to February 1999. By now, Marcus has been missing for about eight and a half months, and the case is at a complete standstill. Investigators are convinced that Ethan knows more than he's letting on, but he's not talking. Now, around this time, Ethan is tied up with someone new, this brand new roommate of sorts, this guy named Charles D. Brown Jr.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1546.822

And this new arrangement is raising some eyebrows, especially with Ethan's brother, Jonathan. Jonathan has been staying with Ethan, but as soon as Charles moves in, Jonathan's like, I'm peacing out for a bit. Like, he just wants to get away from the guy. Because Charles is one of Ethan's closest friends, but Jonathan has never approved of him.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1566.116

He didn't think that Charles was the type of person his brother should hang out with. And there was definitely reasons for concern. So according to articles in the Tennessean by Kirk Loggins and Kathy Carlson, Charles had passed arrest for aggravated assault, unlawful weapon possession, and selling and possessing weed.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1585.649

He had also been shot and shot someone during an attempted home invasion that happened. Interestingly, that attempted home invasion happened one day after Marcus went missing.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1599.844

Right, so let me rewind real quick and tell you about this home invasion, because the details are interesting, to say the least. So in the morning on June 9th, 1998, three or four masked men broke into Charles's apartment. And at the time, he was living with his girlfriend and two young children. And everyone was home when the intruders broke in. They demanded money and then they started shooting.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1624.286

They're like spraying bullets everywhere with at least two guns. Charles gets shot five times and somehow not only did he manage to survive, he also returned fire and hit one of the gunmen who then took off. And John Yates reported something really intriguing for the Tennessean.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1643.016

Witnesses told police that they saw the suspects flee from Charles' place in two vehicles, including a red one that they thought looked like a Chevy Corsica. And when I googled a red Chevy Corsica, it looks an awful lot like Marcus's then-missing Red Plymouth, which I actually have the photos to show you because it's just too bonkers.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1671.512

They're, like, identical.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1677.838

I mean, like, if you weren't, like, a car... Person. Right. Or, like, not even a car person, but, like, you knew your makes and models, you could easily mix those up. Anyway, within an hour of the home invasion, a man named James Cowan shows up at the hospital with multiple gunshot wounds.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1693.089

Cowan tells police some story about getting shot from a car, but court records show that the bullet recovered during his surgery matched a gun that the shooters left behind at Charles' apartment. So I'm guessing that Cowan was hit by maybe friendly fire during the chaos because, again, it didn't come from like Charles's gun. Supposedly it was a gun left behind.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1713.1

Again, I don't know if that matters or not, but whatever. Now, this Cowan guy was no stranger to detectives. He was actually a potential suspect in six homicides. Oh, my God. Yeah. As far as I can tell, Cowan was never arrested for murder.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1728.146

He was, however, arrested and convicted of attempted first degree murder, especially aggravated robbery and aggravated burglary for the home invasion on Charles. And he was sentenced to six decades in prison because of the violent nature of the crime and his extensive rap sheet, which included multiple drug related felonies.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

173.012

But instead of that reassuring her, like, oh, he's just out for some reason, she's actually more convinced than ever that something is up and she needs to get into his apartment. Now, even though they've been together for a little bit, it doesn't look like she has a key to his place.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1747.867

Now, in connection to all of this, Charles wasn't arrested since he was acting in self-defense. But investigators didn't believe that Cowan and the crew he came with just randomly chose Charles's house to rob.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1764.6

It was. But as far as I know, they didn't arrest anyone or charge anyone except for Cowan.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1774.225

So that's not totally clear from the court records. They say they recovered two guns. They recovered a 9mm found in the backyard. And they had Charles' gun, which is a .357 revolver. But there were at least three guns involved.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1788.831

Because according to testimony, at one point during this struggle, an accomplice of Cowan's threw him a quote-unquote big gun when the first gun that he was using ran out of ammunition.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1801.567

Well, so at the time this is happening, I mean, they're not going to find that for weeks. But when they do find it, I know that they run the bullets through their database to check for links to other crimes, but nothing comes up. So I don't think that gun was used in this. OK. If that's what you're getting at.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1817.383

OK, so that happens. Now let's jump back to February of 1999. According to Kirk Loggins, on the 18th, Ethan informs his brother that Charles is going to crash with them. Right. And so this is when Jonathan's like, don't like this guy. I'm going to peace out. A couple of days after that, Ethan tells him that Charles was, quote unquote, going crazy. Like apparently he was super paranoid.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1839.325

He was saying that his girlfriend was trying to have him killed. Right. But it's not like Jonathan moved away. I mean, I don't think Charles was supposed to be a permanent fixture. He just needed to crash for a couple of days. So the night of Tuesday, February 23rd, Jonathan comes back to the house. And when he pulls up, the door to the duplex is wide open.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1859.119

And when he makes his way inside, there on the floor, he sees his brother, Ethan's body, stiff and cold. He had been shot multiple times. Now police believe that Ethan was actually killed days before he was found sometime before noon that past Sunday. They also think that there might have been more than one weapon used and shell casings that they find appear to be from a .40 caliber gun.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

186.16

So she devises this plan to call Marcus's best friend, Ethan Gibbs Jr., who basically helps her just break into the place.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1886.617

Now they don't see any signs of forced entry although they do notice that something is missing. Athens White Pontiac Grand Am. But the next day, someone spots this vehicle in Nashville's Englewood neighborhood, which is like 18 miles from Athens' apartment, and they recognize it from the news reports. This is feeling too similar. Right?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1907.757

And Ethan's aunt tells Kathy Carlson that his family doesn't know of any connections that he has to that area. Of course. Now, obviously, the biggest difference between Marcus and Ethan's cases are that Ethan's is clearly a homicide. He's been found while Marcus is still a missing person. Right.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1927.426

And while detectives are still basically in the dark about what happened to Marcus, they've got a pretty good theory forming about who might be responsible for Ethan's murder. It's gotta be Charles. Yeah, and mostly because an Inglewood woman IDs him as the guy that she saw leaving Ethan's car on her street the day before his body was found.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1955.502

No, they thought that guy was middle-aged. Charles is like Marcus's age, so like 23. Early 20s.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

196.768

I guess. I mean, I think it's the unanswered phone calls. It's just, again, I can't. It's so unlike him. So unlike him. Even when she calls Ethan, like, he doesn't think she's overreacting. He's just as concerned. So when Ethan gets there, he and Tawania break in through a back window.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1961.087

But still, police can't ignore how sketchy his behavior gets. Kirk Loggins reported that Charles skips Ethan's funeral and completely ghosts police when they try to question him further. A friend who hung out with Charles and Ethan over the weekend tells investigators that Charles was seriously worried about his own safety, possibly because of that home invasion that we talked about.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

1983.786

Now, Charles was apparently so convinced that someone was after him that he was wearing a bulletproof vest around. And he had at least two guns in his SUV, including a .40 caliber like the shell casings found at the scene. So talking or not, they do have enough on him to charge him with Ethan's murder in early March. And after a few days on the run, he ends up turning himself in.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

2015.833

No, so not likely. Detective Filter actually refers to Ethan's murder as drug-related because he believes that Ethan was selling weed when he was killed, so he was wrapped up in what could have been a dangerous crowd.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

2029.143

Although if he was, I mean, he was clearly keeping some secrets of his own from certain family members because his aunt says that Ethan was working as a tax consultant at his father's, like, income tax business. So I don't know that they're connecting it to like Charles's paranoia or if they're saying the paranoia is separate and Charles did it because it was a drug thing. I don't know.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

2049.384

It's a little like convoluted and muddy.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

2052.395

Either way, at first, investigators suspect that there could be a connection between Ethan's murder and Marcus's disappearance. And when the Rutledge family hears about Ethan's death, they can hardly believe it. Marcus's sister Felicia is devastated because in her mind, Ethan was the one person who could fill in maybe someday all the blanks about her brother. And now he's gone.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

2075.825

But Charles' arrest is a hopeful sign for Marcus' dad, David, because he figures that once police start, like, pushing on Charles, maybe the dam will burst and maybe they can finally find his son. But here comes another unexpected twist. I wish I could tell you more about what investigators learned from Charles. There is not much info available.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

2103.149

We know that a preliminary hearing is held later that March. Charles is emotional. He's sobbing at times and like shaking his head throughout the proceedings. The judge finds sufficient evidence to send the case to a grand jury. Thank you.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

212.623

And what they find inside just kind of confirms for them that they made the right decision because even though there's no sign of a struggle or foul play, Marcus's Rottweiler is shut in his bathroom with no food or water except like the water in the toilet. And they can tell that he's been there for a while because he had eaten part of the bathroom carpet.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

2152.603

Thank you.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

2191.912

Thank you. Thank you.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

2254.355

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

233.59

And they know that Marcus would never leave his dog like that, not even for a short amount of time, let alone for however long it took this dog to start chewing on the rug. So there's no indication that Marcus was planning for any kind of trip, right? Like his clothes are still there. There's no bag or suitcase that's packed or even missing. Like nothing is standing out to them.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

2385.134

Thank you. Thank you.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

2449.296

Thank you.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

2505.95

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

256.954

So with David and Jerry's encouragement, Tawania calls the Metropolitan Nashville Police Department that very night. And an officer comes to take a missing persons report. Now, initially, he gets some basic details about Marcus. He puts out a bolo for his car, which should stick out because like it has not only is it red, but like has Michigan plates. It's not local. Right.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

278.579

Now, even though there is nothing in his apartment that is obviously out of place, like it doesn't appear that he was even robbed, nothing like that, David told us that something was taken from Marcus's apartment that day that police do kind of check out. So Marcus's landline phone was taken, but there's no mystery about who took it. It was Tawania. Why?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

301.935

She says apparently it was her phone and she wanted it back? Yeah. Why did police let her take anything? I don't know. I don't know if they didn't realize that she even did at first. Like, we actually got to speak with Nashville cold case detective Matt Filter. He is the one heading up the investigation now, although he wasn't on the force when this all started. But he told us that Tawania...

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

324.867

actually took Marcus's caller ID because apparently she wanted to look for numbers that she might recognize. Like, I don't know if the caller ID is, like, built into the phone. I don't know why she would take it instead of telling police. I was going to say, but couldn't she have checked it right there at the apartment? I know. This part, like, doesn't totally add up for me.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

343.808

But for whatever reason, she took it with her. Police do, though, get it back from her pretty quickly, like once they realize. But it's useless to everyone because Detective Filter says that when she unplugged it at Marcus's house, all of the numbers were automatically erased.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

366.024

So if she was trying to see something, that information is now gone. And that's just one of the things weighing on David and Jerry's minds as they make the 500-plus mile drive to Nashville the next day. So when they arrive, Tawania's house is their first stop. Now, Tawania isn't a stranger to them. On, like, a past trip to Nashville, David and Jerry had taken her and Marcus out to dinner.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

390.206

But this time, they're not here for a friendly visit. Like, they want answers from her. Yeah. But Tawania tells them she has no idea what could have happened to Marcus or where he might be. And the only person she can think of who Marcus spent a lot of time with is Ethan. So Marcus's parents arrange to meet up with him at their son's duplex. But he doesn't have any insight to share either.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

4.651

And the story I have for you today is about how a young man's disappearance revealed a secret life. And his secret life made it so much harder for investigators to solve his disappearance. This is the story of Marcus Rutledge. So it's the afternoon on Monday, June 8th, 1998, and a woman named Tawania is getting kind of nervous.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

413.423

He says that he is just as lost as they are and he wants to help them find Marcus any way he can. However, David and Jerry can't help but notice that their son's friend seems awfully nervous. Like he's literally sweating, he can't sit still, and there's just this uncomfortable energy that is like vibrating off of him.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

439.632

So they actually know him pretty well because up until a few months ago, Ethan and Marcus shared an apartment. They were roommates. But like Marcus had recently decided to get his own place. So he moved out, like moved into this duplex that they had now looked at.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

456.706

Yeah, I think you can call it that. I think the two just had like roommate issues, but stuff that like two people who live together might encounter, little things that just like get under your skin.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

466.874

Preach. Marcus had, I guess, been into his family about Ethan. He's messy. His bills weren't getting paid on time, like that kind of thing. But even after Marcus moved out, he and Ethan stayed really close friends. So, like, there is no bad blood between them. And honestly, Marcus's family had always liked Ethan. He is a respectful guy from a good family.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

485.939

They never had any cause for concern about Marcus being around him. And even now, they're wondering if his reaction is is maybe just because of the circumstances. I mean, his best friend is now missing, seemingly vanished into thin air. But Marcus's sister Felicia notices the same strange vibe when Ethan takes her driving around to look for her brother's missing car.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

509.128

She's like, Ethan's acting tense. He's not saying much other than just like suggesting places where they should maybe look for the car. He's saying that he's worried about the whole situation. But again, nothing like incriminating. It's just like it could be chalked up to the same thing, right? Now, as detectives start digging in, they begin to learn more about Marcus's life.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

530.879

He has two children, a nearly four-year-old son with a former girlfriend in Knoxville, and a two-year-old daughter with Tawania. He is super involved with both kids, always checks in with his son, but that child and his mom haven't heard from him either.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

546.507

According to Tennessean reporter Beth Warren, Marcus had last seen his son in May when they went to the zoo, and they had been planning a big party for his upcoming birthday.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

557.552

No, no, he gets along well with both of his children's mothers. So like that feels like a quick dead end, which is when they turn to his school. Maybe someone at the university there can help them piece things together. But this is where they encountered the first big twist in their investigation. It turns out Marcus has been keeping some major secrets from his family.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

585.41

So police learn that Marcus actually dropped out of college the year before, back in 1997. What? Yeah, he's basically been pretending to be a student ever since. And his family had no idea? Mm-mm.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

60.497

She and her 23-year-old boyfriend, Marcus Rutledge, were supposed to meet up, but he's a no-show. Not even answering his cell phone. She's like calling him and calling him, but she's just not hearing anything back.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

600.254

In fact, the last time Marcus visited his parents, which was just a few weeks before he went missing, this was for Memorial Day, he was there for a cookout, he said he left early because he had to study for an exam. Did Twania know? I don't know. So the detective we talked to didn't know either. And Nina tried calling the number that Marcus's dad had for Tawania.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

622.984

We're not sure if it's still the right number for her anymore. Like, long story short, we haven't been able to talk to her to figure that out. But either way, his family... was shocked to find this out from police. Like going to TSU was the entire reason Marcus moved to Nashville in the first place. I mean, both his parents went there. He wanted to follow in their footsteps.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

642.675

I mean, the wild part is they thought he was close to graduating. It's not just that he was going there. They were expecting to go to a graduation soon. But that's not the only surprise in store for the family. Because even though Marcus doesn't have a criminal record, investigators also learn that he'd been selling weed.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

660.465

And they think that he might have started when he was still a student because his clientele seems to mostly be other students. Like, it doesn't seem that he was out on the streets dealing. And we're talking small-scale stuff, like not some big-time operation. Right. And Ethan actually admits this to police.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

675.894

He says that he and Marcus both sell weed, although I'm not sure if they work together or what. And I don't know if Ethan is the first person that they hear this from or if he's just confirming this info that they learn or already had. But he doesn't try to hide it, I think is the main point.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

698.403

Maybe, yeah. But here's the thing. Even while he's being honest about the weed, investigators still can't shake this feeling like Ethan is holding something back. They just don't know what because like I don't think that all that stuff like just stops after they learn the thing right or what they think could be the thing. Did he know that Marcus had dropped out of school?

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

719.83

I assume he knew because they spent a decent amount of time together. I mean like I think I would tell you things I wouldn't necessarily tell my parents like when I was his age but there doesn't seem to be any solid confirmation of that like. It's kind of like with Tawania, I mean, and even his other ex. I don't know what any of them did or did not know about him dropping out of college.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

73.267

So it actually hasn't been very long. I mean, he had spent the night at her place and then took their two-year-old daughter to daycare at around like 10 o'clock that morning. And they've even honestly talked on the phone since at like 1, 1.30 that afternoon. So truly, very little time has passed. It might not even ring alarm bells for some people.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

741.061

But I do know that both women, Tawania and his other ex, seemed to be aware that he was selling weed. I know that much. In an interview with Dateline NBC reporter Josh Mankiewicz, his son's mom said that he was doing it to help provide for their child. And Tawania tells detectives the same thing, that this was just a way he could make enough money to support everyone.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

762.201

But whatever the reason, his parents are crazy.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

766.005

hurt and confused to find all of this out like this like it completely goes against his upbringing like they raised Marcus and his sister in this solid home they felt that like centered around family it's centered around church David is actually an elected official Jerry is an elementary school teacher so like selling drugs lying about being in college all of this is the last thing they expected from their son

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

792.188

However, speaking of secrets, this wasn't the only time Marcus had kept a big one from his parents. They actually didn't know about their grandson until he was born. And Marcus was only 19 at the time.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

814.435

Yeah. I mean, I think he was probably just afraid that David and Jerry would be disappointed in him.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

836.936

So at that Memorial Day cookout that I mentioned, his sister Felicia thought that he seemed unusually stressed. But when she asked him about it, he just said that he had a lot going on in Nashville. He didn't really elaborate. And as far as his parents knew, everything was fine. Like you can chalk stress up to the finals he said he was going to go study for. And say schooling, yeah. Right.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

855.273

So you can imagine. How overwhelming this is for his family. They are already dealing with him being missing. But then to discover that he was living a life they really knew nothing about, it was a lot. And David told us it's like walking through a nightmare. And as investigators dig deeper into Marcus's life, more concerning details emerge.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

878.729

He had gotten into a couple of altercations, one reported to police when it happened about a year before his disappearance, and then another just a few months before he went missing. Both incidents were apparently related to him selling weed, although Detective Filter won't share specifics about those altercations.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

89.65

But the thing is, this is totally uncharacteristic of Marcus not to answer his phone. And if he did miss a call, he would get back to whoever tried him like ASAP. So right away, she knows in her gut that something just doesn't feel right. So she reaches out to Marcus's parents, David and Geraldine, known as Jerry. And she's just trying to see if like they have heard anything from him.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

899.359

Not that investigators can tell. I don't think there's anyone specific or if there is, they're not sharing that. It seems like from everything they look at, they can't find any immediate dangers in his life. No one is saying Marcus owed them money. No one has been like making threats to him. But they do discover something interesting.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

919.938

Back in mid-May, Marcus, they find out, had rented a car for like 10 days. And this stood out because they know that he didn't get into an accident or anything. So it doesn't look like his own car was out of commission or anything. So why rent? Right. Now, did he drive back and forth from Nashville to Knoxville a lot to see his son? You know, that's like 360 miles each trip.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

943.898

Maybe he didn't want to put the miles on his car. But Detective Filter pointed out an alternative possibility. He says that when you're doing something illegal... You might not want to use your own car to do that. But they don't know if he was doing something illegal with the car or what he was using it for in those 10 days. They truly just have no idea.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

966.504

So they find that out. But then beyond that, not much turns up. There is a recent traffic ticket, some receipts from a car wash, like nothing that points investigators in any real direction. So here you have this devoted father who has suddenly stopped checking in with his kids, which seems completely out of character.

Crime Junkie

MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge

986.313

But they've also just learned that he's been living this whole other life that his family knew nothing about. And they really can't tell if he left on his own or if something happened to him. But their thinking starts to shift on Tuesday, June 30th. That is when a maintenance man at an apartment complex more than 20 miles from where Marcus lives spots Marcus's missing Plymouth.

Lucky Boy | Tortoise Investigates

Introducing..Crime Junkie - MURDERED: JonBenet Ramsay

106.056

That's kind of how it always felt. But what I didn't realize is like I didn't know the whole story. And I, of course, am talking about the case of JonBenét Ramsey. In all of that time, it was a media frenzy. I mean, in an era of tabloids, JonBenét reigned supreme, next in line only to a literal almost queen, Princess Diana.

Lucky Boy | Tortoise Investigates

Introducing..Crime Junkie - MURDERED: JonBenet Ramsay

136.077

Like, I don't know if you remember, we talked about this being our origin story, but it was... All over, all the time. You could not go to the grocery store.

Lucky Boy | Tortoise Investigates

Introducing..Crime Junkie - MURDERED: JonBenet Ramsay

145.845

And not see her face. And it was all over the news, even in a time when, like, we weren't paying attention to news. Right. And I think it, like, it garnered so much attention because it was this, like, perfect storm of... Christmas time, a beautiful child, a rich family. And then, I mean, put the pageant stuff on top of all of that.

Lucky Boy | Tortoise Investigates

Introducing..Crime Junkie - MURDERED: JonBenet Ramsay

163.962

Like there were not only a plethora of images of Jean Benet being sold to tabloids and newspapers and magazines because these photographers had so much footage of her. But the pictures they had of her were of this little girl made to look like a young woman. And people had a field day with it.

Lucky Boy | Tortoise Investigates

Introducing..Crime Junkie - MURDERED: JonBenet Ramsay

182.412

And even though there was plenty of talk of people asking the questions of whether or not the pageantry put JonBenet in the path of someone dangerous, which, spoiler alert, like, yeah, the conversations always kind of came back to the parents. Yeah, but they made her do those pageants, which the family says is an inaccurate statement.

Lucky Boy | Tortoise Investigates

Introducing..Crime Junkie - MURDERED: JonBenet Ramsay

200.697

They're like, no, this is something she liked to do with her mom. Like, Patsy was a former Miss West Virginia. Yeah. But all of the tabloids were all about the family. So, like, the family was right in saying that they were out to get them.

Lucky Boy | Tortoise Investigates

Introducing..Crime Junkie - MURDERED: JonBenet Ramsay

228.013

Like, again, I think that it started so early, like, surprisingly early. But, yeah, I think it definitely... fed the monster to be like, they're not talking to police. Like, oh, they left Colorado and now they're in Georgia. And things don't get better.

Lucky Boy | Tortoise Investigates

Introducing..Crime Junkie - MURDERED: JonBenet Ramsay

242.82

Like the more time that passed, the more contentious things got, not just between the Ramseys and the police, but also between the police and the DA's office. Like things are being leaked seemingly from every which way. I mean, it was so bad that at one point her autopsy photos were leaked to the globe and those actually planned to print those autopsy photos.

Lucky Boy | Tortoise Investigates

Introducing..Crime Junkie - MURDERED: JonBenet Ramsay

266.994

And it's like the police, they had become convinced that the Ramseys were involved. And so it actually came out in a deposition at one point, like years down the line, that the police were giving information to reporters to try and put external pressure on the Ramseys, hoping that they would crack.

Lucky Boy | Tortoise Investigates

Introducing..Crime Junkie - MURDERED: JonBenet Ramsay

284.886

Like they couldn't do the thing they wanted to do inside of the interrogation room, so they were going to have the media do it.

Lucky Boy | Tortoise Investigates

Introducing..Crime Junkie - MURDERED: JonBenet Ramsay

299.335

Correct. Because like during this time, like things are getting leaked. Like I said, you have the police department. Things are coming out of the DA's office to the Ramsey's had their own team. So like who is leaking what? Like it is a messy, messy game. But let me actually give you a little bit of the lay of the land of some of the stuff that we were learning in the time after JonBenet's death.

Lucky Boy | Tortoise Investigates

Introducing..Crime Junkie - MURDERED: JonBenet Ramsay

321.778

I'm going to go into her autopsy. I think that's a big part of it. But before I do that, I think we just need to talk about some of the physical evidence at the house, some of the observations that were made, because I think all of that like was informing police's opinion on the situation very early on. Right.

Lucky Boy | Tortoise Investigates

Introducing..Crime Junkie - MURDERED: JonBenet Ramsay

337.029

So one of the big ones, one of the ones that the Ramseys say kind of like defines the case is that police just didn't like how they were acting. Linda Arndt, I'll talk about her probably a lot in this episode. She was the first detective there that day. And she does this like one really infamous interview with Good Morning America in 1999.

Lucky Boy | Tortoise Investigates

Introducing..Crime Junkie - MURDERED: JonBenet Ramsay

357.957

And the interviewer asks her like, how was John that morning? And she just keeps saying, cordial. And she's like, okay, but cordial, what does that mean? It's the only word she would say, cordial, cordial. So she didn't like how he was acting. Now, John tells me, he's like, and told everyone, like, I was trying to keep my wits about me. Like, I don't, like, Patsy was deeply upset.

Lucky Boy | Tortoise Investigates

Introducing..Crime Junkie - MURDERED: JonBenet Ramsay

377.43

Like, she was just in the room with her friend. She's laying down. She's crying. He's like, I had to, like, go into action mode. It's autopilot almost. Exactly. Which I truly I understand a little bit. I look at me and my husband and we are very different that way where I think Eric would be the one like in the chair crying laying on the floor.

Lucky Boy | Tortoise Investigates

Introducing..Crime Junkie - MURDERED: JonBenet Ramsay

395.743

And I'm going to be like, OK, I've got to get the money. I'm going to get this. Like I'm lining everything up to be like, what can I do to fix this situation? Because I can't just sit here. Yeah. John's a CEO of a company. Like I see him. I see him going in that way. But the other thing that Linda talks about is that they're like in separate rooms the whole time. So she just found that strange.

Lucky Boy | Tortoise Investigates

Introducing..Crime Junkie - MURDERED: JonBenet Ramsay

417.656

And people have like weighed in over the years, like put their own spin on it. I don't know that you could say one way or another that means anything. Like I don't think people could say conclusively. But she just felt it was strange that like Patsy's in one room crying. Again, John is like over here in action mode. But in this giant house. In a giant house.

Lucky Boy | Tortoise Investigates

Introducing..Crime Junkie - MURDERED: JonBenet Ramsay

435.021

But I think she expected them to be a unit and comforting each other. But that's not what she saw that day, which I think played into the beliefs that first day. The other thing that gets talked about a ton.

Lucky Boy | Tortoise Investigates

Introducing..Crime Junkie - MURDERED: JonBenet Ramsay

448.909

and that she really, and I think Officer French, and a lot of people there that day honed in on, was the fact that, so John had just been like freshly showered when, he had just gone out of the shower when Patsy made that 911 call. And so he's fresh in the morning. She has like fresh makeup, but she's also wearing the same clothes that she'd worn the night before.

Lucky Boy | Tortoise Investigates

Introducing..Crime Junkie - MURDERED: JonBenet Ramsay

467.619

So they say, depends on who you talk to, right? Like they thought it was really weird that at five something in the morning, she's got full hair and makeup, but wearing the same clothes.

Lucky Boy | Tortoise Investigates

Introducing..Crime Junkie - MURDERED: JonBenet Ramsay

69.588

Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm Ashley Flowers.

Lucky Boy | Tortoise Investigates

Introducing..Crime Junkie - MURDERED: JonBenet Ramsay

73.39

And I'm finally freaking doing it. I am doing the case that I said I would never do. The case that is our Crime Junkie origin story.

Lucky Boy | Tortoise Investigates

Introducing..Crime Junkie - MURDERED: JonBenet Ramsay

87.526

Yeah. And like for I think it is for a long time. I just didn't think that there was anything that I could add. Right. Like it's been done, you know, seven ways to Sunday. I literally feel like there are more like or less versions of the Bible than there are of like books written by people who like maybe even tangentially touch. So like what would we have to add? Right.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

1066.21

Everything shuts down.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

1093.038

Just like silent suffering.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

1124.091

I don't, like, there's no way.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

113.159

I made a bit of a pivot, and I finished my degree with actually a focus in research. And so what do you like about science? I like facts, and I think so much in life can be so subjective. And what I love about science is it feels like there are real answers and not just opinions. Like sometimes things get to be black and white, and that's not very often do you get that. Yeah.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

1148.624

So the corpus... You can't convict someone just based on a confession. Their confession has to actually match some kind of physical evidence. We're basically like if you took the confession away, you have to still be able to prove that they did it by some other means, whether that's physical evidence, circumstantial evidence, other witnesses.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

1168.733

But you should not be able to convict someone just by them saying I did this thing.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

1234.307

But then he changed his mind, he says.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

1256.406

Did he get, you know, in a room and pressured? Like, that's an easy thing to say. Like, do you also say the thing that's been weighing on you and then all of a sudden when, like, the gravity of what that means and, like, what the consequences are, when the gravity of that sets in, the story changes? Like, oh, maybe I, oh, gosh, I didn't know what I was, like, saying.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

1408.469

And are they the kind of thing that would last for a while? Like, in the system? Like, would you still see them?

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

149.355

Yes.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

159.758

I think I'm just overall like a very curious person, the more that I've like really drilled into it. And I want to, I want the answers to everything. The universe, I want the answers to all the unsolved mysteries, like give them to me.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

1667.675

Oh, right. You don't even know if it's like body fluid or outside fluid or.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

1754.509

I know. It's like the milkshake pig liver. Yeah. You can really feel it in your throat, can't you?

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

180.934

Let's do it.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

1804.193

Is that what you said?

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

1807.215

It had to have smelled so awful. I just went into my first morgue for the first time recently, and that was bad. I have no clue what this place would smell like.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

1886.877

It stays on you. I've talked to detectives who have said that there are scenes that they come home from and they have to just burn their clothes or throw away their clothes because no amount of washing will get it out. There is just a level that is beyond anything I think most people know. Yeah, bad.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

1946.381

Not what I've spent my brain power on. No.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

2061.73

Holy crap. That is incredible. Isn't it?

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

2152.993

Oh, that is rough. That's like not part of the job description. Oh.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

2280.455

They did it. They did it. So do they have to go exhume every single patient that he's ever come in contact with? Or like, where do they go from there?

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

2299.515

And do they think that the others truly didn't have it in their system? Like they would have detected that or they're unsure about the other ones?

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

2496.542

That's so prolific. And it's, how do you even, has he kept a record of who these people were? How do you even go back and try and find out who they were?

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

2515.29

And he can't still be saying like he was like trying to save them from their own suffering, right?

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

252.793

And they're just toasting the day before.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

2620.024

There's, like, that doesn't even, like... That doesn't even, like, register. I just... Like, can someone be that cold? It almost would make more sense if he...

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

2634.193

you know did like get some kind of like joy or something from the actual killing like that almost makes more sense to me than just being like well too many people today so like which one's gonna lose their life so we can like have a manageable schedule yeah evan took a plea deal and was eventually convicted of killing the six patients that armando and his colleagues found pavillon in

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

2710.373

I love it. Science saved the day. Yeah. I mean, I think science is always saving the day, right? Like in the world that we live in. And I love this because I love the idea that, oh, we didn't know what the test didn't exist. And so instead of being like, oh, sorry, there's something to do. That doesn't mean it can't happen. Science is like happening all the time around us.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

2728.26

If we make it happen, just because the test doesn't exist today doesn't mean it won't tomorrow.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

283.304

And how close together are all three of these? Like pretty close?

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

313.447

Well, I'm just... What do you mean, rumors? Like, I feel like this isn't something that should be a rumor if people know that someone's walking around, like, killing people. Yeah. We're going to get into what these rumors are, who everyone is blaming.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

336.079

Naturally. Are you in? I'm in. We're going to do this just after the break.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

366.929

Hello.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

433.883

Studded large. Literally, Efra, no one asked.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

440.95

I mean, it's real awful energy there. Was he actually of hunk body?

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

508.607

Yeah.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

515.288

Just like radiating power. Yeah, I get it.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

611.147

They just they played practical jokes on each other. So having worked at a hospital, having worked with a ton of people in law enforcement, I have seen this in a place where you see a lot of death or there's like a lot of trauma. Having that like very dark sense of humor tends to be I've seen a way that a lot of people deal with it.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

630.235

So it's not even super surprising to me to like see that in the hospital setting. Yeah. But still.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

719.525

And is this like a euthanasia situation? Or what does that, like, what do they mean?

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

739.57

Yeah.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

750.841

And let me guess, they didn't want to talk? Yeah. Let me finish that for you. Thank you.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

809.916

I mean, I under—well, I understand what he's saying. And it's funny, like, I feel like the way that I'm at least hearing this is that the hospital really brings in the police because of the extortion, not because of the threat of somebody actually killing their patients.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

825.284

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha, John. So I understand why he would just kind of— come in with that thought of like, well, this can't be true. It's just some guy. He wants $50,000 to out a serial killer. Like, there's no way. I would probably think the same thing, too.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

87.615

We both have this degree. I thought I really wanted to be a doctor when I was young. And I was... I think fortunate enough to have to work full time to put myself through school. And I worked at a hospital for all five years and went to school at night. And I got to work side by side with residents who you have to be before you're a doctor. And I was like, oh, that's not the life I want.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

882.837

Like, all they had to do was ask some follow-up questions and the dude just folds? Pretty quickly, he says he killed 40 to 50 people.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

952.253

Which is what they found in his locker. Wow. Exactly.

Serial Killers

Holiday Break: How a Nuclear Lab Helped Catch a Serial Killer

963.499

But we had our homegirl over here who's like cheersing to a brand new year. Yes.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1023.25

No more back and forth with Matt. She wanted out. Which feels like real motive. Even more so when investigators learned about the money side of things. You see, Matt and Gwen had a prenup in place. Detectives told us that Matt claimed the agreement was his family's idea. Apparently they were pretty well off. But detectives said Matt also stood to lose in the event of a divorce.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1046.671

Gwen had brought in around $70,000 to the marriage, and so if she and Matt ever got divorced, she would get that $70,000 back. And that meant that Matt would have to pay up.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1082.007

Now, with Gwen dead and still legally his wife when she died, instead of losing money in a divorce, Matt actually stood to make money off her death.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1107.353

That wasn't the only money at stake. Apparently, detectives said there was also something with real estate, the house he and Gwen previously lived in together before they separated. Like maybe he needed Gwen's signature to officially sell it and perhaps he'd been frustrated that she'd been holding out.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1124.259

None of this was a good look for Matt, but none of it was enough to put a warrant out for his arrest either.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1147.954

So how could they prove it? Well, investigators had at least one idea. While questioning Matt for a second time on February 7th, detectives tested his hands for gunpowder residue, and the results came back positive. Matt didn't have a history of owning guns, and no one police spoke with had any knowledge of him using or trying to get access to a gun. Feels like a slam dunk, right? Wrong.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

117.546

Impending divorce was actually the topic of conversation that very day as Gwen arrived at the Royal St. George apartment complex and approached unit 8312 where she lived alone, talking to Christina along the way.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1183.506

To investigator Frazier and Detective Sam, gunshot residue testing is considered unreliable. with experts claiming that there can be other factors at play that can cause inaccurate results. It's not the type of testing that holds up in court. But what does have a better chance of holding up in court?

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1204.386

Matt had consented to DNA swabs when he was first questioned, and detectives found that it matched DNA on the sweater investigators believed the attacker likely yanked off as Gwen was trying to get away. But knowing that Gwen and Matt had been together recently and that he had spent time at the apartment... The presence of his DNA ended up being a moot point.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1228.236

So, investigators turned their sights to the cigarette butts found just outside Gwen's door. Matt's story was that he wasn't anywhere near Gwen's apartment when she was killed. If a still-burning cigarette had his DNA on it, it would prove that he was lying and would put him at her apartment at the time she was killed.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1249.211

This seemed to be kind of their last hope in the way of physical evidence, but they were feeling good about it. I mean, even the brand Marlboro Menthol was the same type that Matt was known to smoke. Hopes had to have been soaring when they got the results back. The extinguished cigarette on the ground? Yep, that matched Matt's DNA. But here's your warning.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1273.713

The higher you let your hopes go, the harder it hurts when they come crashing down. That other smoldering cigarette had a single source DNA from an unknown male. Detectives didn't know what to think or what this might mean. Was it possible that Matt had an accomplice or could this have been a murder for hire? Matt didn't offer up any names of any people he thought might be responsible.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1301.096

And outside of Matt, Gwen's loved ones couldn't come up with anyone else who they thought would want to hurt her.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1377.082

Investigators confronted Matt with the fact that his DNA was found on Gwen's sweater and the one cigarette butt found on the ground outside. And even though it wasn't the thing that was going to do him in, surely at this point it was enough to make him realize that he was police's prime suspect.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1393.276

Detectives said he denied it all and became agitated, ultimately leaving the West Palm Beach police station never to return again.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1435.142

Despite the circumstantial evidence pointing to Matt, detectives had hit a dead end. Throughout the following years, they continued to investigate Matt and his associates to see if they could find the person whose DNA was on that smoking cigarette butt. While it's clear police had Matt Square in their sights, I don't want you to get the impression that they didn't run down other possibilities too.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1456.656

I mean, they spoke with Gwen's co-workers. They looked into the possibility of surveillance footage. They canvassed Gwen's apartment complex. One tip even took them all the way to Jamaica in pursuit of a teenager, this neighbor who'd apparently moved abruptly after Gwen's murder. But investigator Frazier told us that turned out to be nothing. Evidently, he'd come to the U.S.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1475.69

to live with his brother and simply missed home and wanted to go back.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1508.188

It was a name no one recognized, Richard Engle. His DNA was put into CODIS about a decade after Gwen's murder when he was arrested on federal fraud charges. But according to Investigator Frazier, he did also have a violent history, arrests from 2001, including for domestic battery and domestic aggravated assault with a firearm.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1532.481

Richard was serving his time in a South Carolina prison on those other federal fraud charges. So in 2013, Detective Sam and Investigator Frazier traveled out of state to meet with him. At first, it sounds like he assumed the detectives were there for something related to the fraud stuff. But they cleared up their reason for being there pretty quickly.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1557.027

Our reporting team obtained audio from the detectives meeting with Richard that you'll hear throughout this section.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

156.345

And then their conversation came to a sudden and chilling halt.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1596.892

Detectives proceeded to show Richard pictures of Gwen's apartment. And while he claimed he didn't recall ever being there, he did mention that he had lived close by and used to deliver pizzas in that area, but that all those apartment complexes looked the same to him. Richard also said that he wasn't a smoker back in 2003, said he didn't pick up the habit until later.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1619.466

But even then, investigator Frazier posed a hypothetical. Well, if you were gonna smoke, what type would you go for? Next, they showed Richard a photo lineup of some men, including Matt, and asked him if he recognized any of them. Richard said no. He denied knowing Matt or Gwen when they showed him pictures, said they didn't even look familiar.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1651.28

So they moved on to the most damning piece of evidence they had, the reason they were there in the first place.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1722.627

Okay. It's you. But back in the interrogation room in 2013, Richard wasn't giving in. He didn't even seem to try and come up with a reasonable explanation as to why his DNA would have been at the scene. He was more so denying the science, adamant he was never there.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1766.024

Now detectives had a new theory, that Matt Greenblatt and Richard Engel worked together. And they had a hunch as to how it may have played out.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1854.232

They confronted Richard, but he continued to deny it all.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1894.465

The investigators left Richard in prison that day, convinced he wasn't telling them the truth. So then a new effort began, trying to find a connection between Richard and Matt to bolster their theory that they were accomplices. But spoiler alert, we're over a decade out now from that confrontation in that South Carolina prison, and that has proved to be difficult.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

19.974

But chatting on her cell while walking up to her apartment in sunny South Florida during broad daylight, Gwen couldn't have sensed that her life was in danger. And even the friend on the other end of the line had no way of stopping the evil that was lurking just behind Gwen's front door. I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1918.917

No phone records revealed any communication between the two, and financial accounts disclosed no payments from Matt to Richard. Detectives couldn't find any witnesses who could say that the two had ever had any contact with each other either.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1932.888

It sounds like the prevailing assumption was that the two would have just been casual acquaintances, like maybe they met somehow, somewhere, and then Matt hired Richard to help him commit the murder. Outside of the fact that Richard lived nearby at the time, investigators tried to pinpoint other commonalities between them. And they had some loose ideas as to where they could have crossed paths.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1969.099

They also looked into the idea that Richard really could have just been at the scene because he was delivering a pizza. Although, at the end of the day, he'd still been steadfast that he'd never been to Gwen's apartment. But employment history showed that the last time he worked for a pizza place was fall of 2002, at least a couple of months before the murder.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

1990.268

And if you can recall, Gwen's neighbors really hadn't been around at the time of the murder. I mean, no one investigators ever interviewed thought that they even ordered a pizza that day. So, so far, investigators haven't been able to find any evidence from inside Gwen's apartment that is also a match for Richard's DNA.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

2010.751

Though, as technology improves, they do plan to continue retesting items to see if anything new pops up. Investigators have also kept tabs on Matt. In 2015, Detective Sam traveled out west to take another crack at talking to him.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

2105.25

Towards the end of their conversation, Matt shut down and said if they had any more questions, they could talk to his lawyer. In Detective Sam's opinion, Matt came across as a liar because he was contradicting things he'd originally told investigators, as well as things other reliable witnesses had told them. When asked about Engle, Detective Sam told us that Matt appeared unfazed.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

2129.415

And that's where investigators need your help to step in. Is there anyone out there with information that can help detectives establish a connection between Matt Greenblatt and Richard Engle? Our reporter Madison tried reaching both of them, hoping to push them on this subject. But as of this recording, neither of them have gotten back to her.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

2151.607

Gwen's brother Chad thinks that Matt holds the answers he's looking for.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

2195.311

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

231.304

Christina wasn't making empty threats. Hearing nothing on the other end of the line, she immediately called 911 and gave them Gwen's address as she waited by the phone at home some 30 to 40 minutes away for an update. But the waiting was torture.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

246.328

Knowing first responders were on their way, Christina called their other friend, Sarah, who lived even closer and asked her to go to Gwen's and find out what was going on. Here's Sarah.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

324.298

As you probably know, we wouldn't be here if Gwen had just suffered an accidental fall down her apartment building stairs. And that much was clear to the trained eyes of the West Palm Beach police. As soon as they arrived and found Gwen, they knew that she had actually been shot. Here's the detective on the case today, Aaron Sam, describing how and where in the apartment they found Gwen.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

384.225

Assassinated. That was investigator William Frazier interjecting there. He's currently with the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office, but he used to work closely with Detective Sam on Gwen's case. There was no sign that Gwen had been sexually assaulted, and nothing appeared to have been taken from her apartment. So whoever had shot Gwen, it appeared their sole goal was to take her out.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

4.116

Our card this week is Gwendolyn Greenblatt, the Six of Diamonds from Florida. If you've ever been alone and felt like you may be in trouble, maybe you called someone, made it known that you were on the phone, made it clear that someone else was listening.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

406.685

And by the looks of it, she was chased down and cornered at the back of her apartment with nowhere else to go when they did it.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

457.27

The shooting took place in the back closet where Gwen was found. She had dropped her cell phone right at the front door, and that might explain why Christina didn't hear anything else but the dog barking. That dog was Gwen's Jack Russell Terrier, Shaquille, who police found unharmed wandering the apartment with his leash on.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

475.718

Detectives surmised that Gwen likely put his leash on right as she got home, in the few moments she had before she was ambushed, which tells her friends something important. That dog was likely familiar with whoever had been laying in wait for Gwen.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

511.315

Very protective dog. The only thing in the way of evidence they found around Gwen in the closet were bullet casings from a .380. While the proverbial smoking gun itself wasn't left behind, there was another piece of evidence outside the apartment that was still letting off smoke. Literally.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

549.628

The cigarette butt was found directly outside of Gwen's door on top of a box that housed a fire alarm pole. There were only three other apartments on that floor and no one else seemed to be around at that time of the murder.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

563.355

So combine that with the fact that most residents appeared to smoke on their balconies, not the outside area where this butt was located, this made it seem like it very well could have belonged to their killer. And there was one additional cigarette butt on the ground below this one that was collected too.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

581.579

That one was extinguished when it was discovered, but from what detectives could tell, it still looked to be pretty fresh. So while the police response was fast enough to catch the smoking cigarette before it burnt out, sadly, no one could have responded fast enough to save Gwen. She died from the direct shots to her head pretty shortly after she was transported to the hospital.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

603.591

The news of her death was a blow to her friends, Sarah and Christina, who had been praying that she would pull through. Ever since Sarah had arrived at the crime scene, both women had been trying to get in touch with Gwen's loved ones.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

616.14

One way or another, Gwen's family, back in her home state of Pennsylvania, did get word of what was happening, and immediately they made their way down to South Florida. Gwen's only, quote, family in the immediate area was her husband of about five years who she was separated from, Matthew Greenblatt, who went by Matt.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

634.912

Now, they'd been living apart for a few years, but according to those we spoke to, Gwen had wanted to work things out and try and stay married. Matt, on the other hand, appeared to have different plans. He seemed to be leading her on, keeping her close by with no intention of actually recommitting to her.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

652.8

But Sarah told us that his controlling, game-playing behavior seemed to have been pushing Gwen to a breaking point. And just the day before her murder, Gwen told Sarah that she was going to do something about it.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

695.58

It's a bit unclear who ended up reaching Matt to notify him about the incident. But Gwen's friends estimate that sometime within about two hours or so of the shooting, Matt showed up at the hospital seemingly oblivious as to what was going on. Investigators were already clued in on the couple's tumultuous relationship by that point.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

714.657

So they were curious to see how Matt would respond when they broke the news to him that Gwen had been murdered.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

74.437

It was close to 3.30 in the afternoon on Wednesday, February 5th, 2003, when a woman named Christina was talking on the phone with her friend, 35-year-old Gwendolyn Greenblatt. The two were catching up as Gwen was in the car making the about 20-minute drive home to West Palm Beach from her job as a massage therapist at the luxurious Breakers Resort in Palm Beach.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

782.182

Detectives have never been able to speak to anyone who could vouch for Matt's whereabouts during the time Gwen was killed. And at least some versions of his story were simply unverifiable. He told police he was getting a haircut, but when they checked the books at the place he mentioned, there was no record of him signing in.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

801.438

He also told police he went to Hungry Howie's to pick up some food, but they couldn't verify that either.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

817.638

Florida. Authorities were able to execute a search warrant at Matt's place within the first week, but nothing connecting him to the crime was discovered. But nothing not connecting him to the crime was either. Like his phone activity, for example. When investigators analyzed his phone and computer data, it revealed Matt was on them pretty consistently.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

841.426

Except, interestingly, for a window right around the time of the homicide when there was a stark period of inactivity. Through his electronics, detectives said that they discovered Matt was having multiple affairs with exotic dancers, something he wasn't open about when they first asked him about the state of his marriage. And not all of these affairs were casual hookups either.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

864.629

Matt seemed to be someone who was living completely separate lives, having ongoing relationships with at least four other women. Detectives had discussions with several of them, all of whom declared they had no idea that they'd been dating a married man. Married, but separated, but married nonetheless.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

883.462

And while they all painted a pretty bad picture of Matt, describing him as emotionally abusive, controlling, jealous, even keeping constant tabs on them, none of them claimed to have any insight into the murder of his wife. The more detectives learned about Matt and Gwen's relationship, the more suspicious they became.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

902.949

Gwen's younger brother, Chad, was aware of the troubles in his sister's marriage almost from the get-go.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

952.377

While her family heard about Gwen's difficulties with Matt over the phone and through sporadic visits, Gwen's Florida friends had a front row seat to the drama that ensued. Despite all the affairs, it seemed like Matt still wanted to keep Gwen on his roster. Now, she wasn't allowed to move on, but he had free reign to do whatever he wanted.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

96.63

Christina and Gwen had met through their jobs at the spa, but had become increasingly close as both women's marriages unraveled. Here's Christina.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

972.049

And his own key to get in and out of her apartment when he wanted.

The Deck

Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)

999.01

Even though they were separated, investigators told us Gwen and Matt were still seeing each other sometimes. Matt himself told them that they'd been intimate just a few days before the homicide. Though apparently, that last part comes only from Matt. But as you heard Sarah say before, any ambivalence Gwen had been feeling about Matt and the marriage seemed to be over. Gwen was adamant with Sarah.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1016.717

And that woman was Carmen. According to what Carmen told police, it wasn't unusual for her to pop over to William's apartment at all hours of the night. She even had a key to his place so she could kind of just come and go as she pleased. And on that particular night, she told police that she and her boyfriend, Pablo, had hung out with William in the early evening.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1046.684

Her boyfriend went to bed at around 11 p.m., and a few hours after that, she headed back over to William's place. She said she and William had this little routine where they would hang out every night, drink a few beers, play some cards. She told detectives that she went to his place just before 2 a.m. to make a cup of coffee, which seems like an odd time to make coffee, I know.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1066.54

William's family even told our reporter that they only knew William to drink one cup of coffee when he woke up in the morning. Two, maybe, but... I don't know, maybe Carmen was a middle-of-the-night coffee drinker and didn't have a coffee machine of her own. Either way, she told detectives that she went over there and that's when she found William covered in blood.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1085.133

So she pressed his medical alert button and ran back home to tell her boyfriend what was going on. She also apparently called Oscar from William's phone.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1102.406

Detective Dean said that Carmen's timeline of the evening was tough to nail down because Carmen, her boyfriend, and even William didn't really live by any sort of strict schedule. But still, detectives tried to determine a loose window of time in which William was likely killed. They were told that Carmen and Pablo allegedly saw William last between 11 p.m. and maybe around midnight.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1126.959

And when first responders arrived at the scene, it was just after 2 a.m. And what they saw was that some of the blood had already started to pool and dry. So that left a pretty short window of time in which he could have been killed. And in that short period of time, Carmen was the last known person to see William alive and then the one to find him dead.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1149.173

Detective Dean said that investigators interviewed Carmen that morning, less than eight hours after William's body was found. And he said that she was acting a little strange. But the detectives recognized that she might just be reacting to the fact that she just found her friend brutally murdered.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

117.352

That's Willimantic Police Department Detective Eric Dean, a member of Connecticut's Cold Case Unit. He told us that John J. Ashton Towers, known simply as The Towers, was home to more than 100 residents, most of whom were elderly, disabled, or living with mental illnesses. So emergency services were needed there pretty regularly. And this particular call and how it came in fit the bill.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1211.547

Police interviewed her boyfriend Pablo early on in the investigation too. And both Carmen and Pablo gave police DNA samples. A lot of items from William's home were also sent out for DNA testing and the results eventually showed that there were a few unknown DNA profiles on those items.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1230.629

Now, we know that a lot of people went in and out of William's apartment, so that DNA doesn't necessarily belong to their suspect. And police didn't want to reveal exactly what items they pulled DNA from. But they compared Carmen and Pablo's samples to those profiles that they had, and neither were a match to any of the unknown samples.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1252.188

Melissa said that she and her father were never told about that DNA sample Carmen gave. But either way, the family has been steadfast for years that Carmen was at the center of whatever conflict or confrontation led to William's death.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1267.811

They don't necessarily think she killed him, but they think that she may have gotten him wrapped up in some sort of rivalry between men living in the towers who might have been interested in Carmen. Even though Carmen had a boyfriend, William's family thinks that William might have been in some sort of relationship with her.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1285.904

Or at least, maybe he was under the impression that they were in a relationship.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1328.402

Oscar and Melissa told our reporter that they voiced concerns when William began seeing Carmen and giving her money, especially when it started happening more and more frequently. Apparently, just before his death, he had been feeling a bit jealous.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1342.034

He believed that Carmen was spending a bit too much time with other men in the towers, including a military veteran who was living down the hall and then another guy who went by the nickname of Scarface.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1365.19

Not long before he died, William apparently even bought a cigarette rolling machine for Carmen to try and limit her need to talk to these other guys. Now, we reached out to Carmen to find out more about her relationship with William, but as of this recording, she didn't return our calls. Now, it wasn't just William's family who was concerned about his living situation.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1388.395

They said that William himself had started to worry that something bad was going to happen to him. And soon. In the weeks leading up to his murder, William asked his brother Oscar to come with him to the housing office so they could ask for a housing transfer because he didn't want to live in the towers anymore.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1418.959

William apparently told Oscar that this weird thing kept happening. He would come home to find that the burners on the right side of his stove were burning hot. And William swore that he didn't leave his stove on and that he never even used those burners on that side. I mean, we all know we have a favorite stove burner and then one we would never touch. And that's how it was for William, too.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

142.23

Representatives from a third-party medical device company had made contact. You might remember those quotable life alert commercials where someone's grandparent has fallen and can't get up. They can't reach the phone. Well, instead, they hit a button on a little device around their neck. So this is basically that same device, same concept, just a different company.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1442.904

So while he never said if he suspected any particular person, William made it clear that he thought someone was coming into his home and either trying to start a fire or trying to get him in trouble for leaving the stove on. So that August, just weeks before William's murder, Oscar took him to the housing office.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1482.782

It was actually in that housing office that Oscar saw his brother for the very last time. And Oscar remembers going back to that same office to return the apartment keys after William was murdered.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1580.031

Melissa and Oscar have never stopped advocating for William. And as police were doing their investigation, they sort of took matters into their own hands too. Melissa and her father started visiting the towers as often as they could, knocking on people's doors to speak with them themselves.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1596.462

They sat down with Carmen multiple times, held community events to canvas the neighborhood with flyers, posted their own $2,000 reward for information, and pushed hard for a higher reward from the state, which they eventually got. In June of 2023, the governor bumped up the reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction of Williams' killer to 50 grand.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1618.558

And Detective Dean credited Melissa with making that happen. He and Melissa actually went to high school together, so they have remained in close contact over the years as their investigations ran sort of side by side.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

162.325

And all the medical device company told the dispatchers was that a patient named William Alvarado needed medical attention. So again, muscle memory. Paramedics and firefighters made their way up to William's unit on the second floor and walked in expecting to take his blood pressure, maybe check his oxygen, help him off the floor and load him into an ambulance.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1636.587

Detective Dean said that he and other investigators listened to her and her dad's concerns and looked harder at their theories, especially about Carmen. But there was just never any evidence to link her to William's murder.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1662.177

So William's family and investigators kept digging. More than once, detectives thought that they were finally getting somewhere, only to hit a dead end. Detective Dean said that they interviewed dozens of people over the years, but nothing panned out. And that was largely due to a unique challenge in this case.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1680.786

Many people who live in the towers were living with mental illnesses, which meant it was often hard to follow the leads they were giving.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1730.742

Detective Dean said that a lot of the missing rungs in that ladder were also because many of William's neighbors have kept their lips sealed tight. And just like William was, he thinks they're scared. But scared of what or of who?

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1787.567

In the lobby of the Towers, a faded photo of William is still pinned to a bulletin board advertising the $2,000 reward that Melissa and Oscar first posted out of their own pockets as they desperately tried to collect information. Detective Dean recently went to hang a new reward poster in the Towers advertising the higher dollar amount. But somebody tore those down.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

183.455

But instead, just minutes after stepping into William's home, they found themselves backing right back out without William because it was clear right away to those first responders there was nothing they could do to help him.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1853.664

About a year and a half ago, somebody outside of the towers finally did come forward with a tip. Around the summer of 2023, letters started arriving in the mail from a confidential informant. This guy said he happened to be flipping through a certain set of cold case playing cards that are circulated through Connecticut prisons. And that's when he came across a card with William's photo on it.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1879.515

He recognized William. So he wrote to the cold case unit to tell them that he held the answers that they had been looking for all these years. And that he was ready to talk.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1895.373

The man said he knew who William's killer was. It was someone he knew, and he knew a lot about what allegedly happened that night. Unfortunately, it's a story that law enforcement wants to keep close to the vest for now. What detectives would tell us is that they were able to corroborate a lot of what he told them. In fact, most of what he told them checked out.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1920.556

So they started to take a hard look at the guy he was pointing the finger at. It turns out it was someone police in the town of Willimantic knew pretty well. He had a history of criminal activity and had strong ties to the Towers. So just a few months ago, they decided to talk to this guy themselves. They brought him in for questioning multiple times.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1944.847

In fact, they've talked to pretty much everyone in his inner circle by the time we wrote this episode. They're getting closer and closer. But as of this recording, they just don't have enough information to make an arrest. At least not yet.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1961.977

But when our reporter Taylor sat down with Detective Dean in September at the police department, she sat just a few feet away from some packages that were sealed up with bright red tape labeled evidence. And inside them were some videotapes pulled from surveillance cameras on the towers, footage that was initially thought to have been corrupted.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

1985.558

But man, isn't it amazing how technology changes every single day? Just the day after sitting down for our interview, Detective Dean went to drop those tapes off with a video enhancement expert in the Boston area.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

2010.273

We checked back in with Detective Dean in early December, and it turned out the expert was able to enhance the tapes and detectives were actively making their way through the footage, frame by frame, trying to see who they can place at the towers at the time of the murder. We'll let you know what they find.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

2029.465

They're hoping modern technology can help them take a second look at other old evidence, too. Remember how we mentioned detectives took a bunch of items from the crime scene for DNA testing? And remember, they were able to develop some unknown DNA profiles on items in Williams' apartment, and that may or may not belong to their suspect.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

2049.764

So far, they haven't found a person who matches these unknown profiles just yet. But they're planning to retest a lot of the evidence and compare those profiles to their new person of interest and even to old suspects, just to be sure. And Detective Dean said that he's hopeful something is going to come of that.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

2069.858

In the meantime, he's also hopeful that other people will come forward with even the smallest of tips to help them prove who killed William. They are so close to solving his case, to getting justice for William. They're even hoping that someone listening to this episode might be able to fill in the last few gaps that will make their case airtight.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

2118.695

Detective Dean said that although no one has called in yet with that last link they need to connect their person of interest to William's murder, people have been calling them about this guy.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

2129.499

See, word travels fast in the towers, and it seems that other residents heard pretty quickly that he was being questioned about William's murder, and they've apparently got a lot of stories about him taking advantage of other elderly folks in the area. Detective Dean said, basically, this guy is a menace.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

2186.326

Melissa and Oscar said that they know people have been scared, but they hope that they'll be brave enough to pick up the phone now if they know anything about William's murder. For William's family's sake, and for everyone's safety.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

2246

Our reporter asked Oscar what it's been like living without his big brother and without answers for so many years.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

2285.026

Oscar lights a candle for his brother every day and often pauses in his dining room to gaze at an oil painting of William that the funeral home had made for his memorial services. In it, William smiles a soft smile. The painting hangs in a wooden frame in the center of the wall surrounded by photos of William's family over the years.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

2305.639

Their family should still be taking photos with William to add to that wall and making new memories in Connecticut and even back in Puerto Rico. Oscar is planning to retire soon. He knows that he would have used all of his newfound free time to see his brother more often, to invite William over for visits and bring him on vacations.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

2326.15

Oscar said he's looking forward to traveling to Puerto Rico when he's done working, but it won't be the same without his brother. Nothing will ever be the same without his brother again. He'll visit William and their parents when he's back on the island, though.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

2358.008

That's where he wanted to be. If you or anyone you know has information about William Alvarado's murder in Willimantic, Connecticut on September 7th, 2016, please call the Willimantic Police Department at 860-465-3135. or the Connecticut Cold Case Unit tip line at 1-866-623-8058. Tips can also be sent by email to cold.case at ct.gov. And we'll have more ways to reach out in our show notes.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

237.988

Detectives hadn't been able to see it at first due to the way William was positioned in his chair. But once the side of William's neck was visible, there was no question about it. He had been stabbed once from the left side of his neck deep into his chest.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

2399.028

The Deck is an audio Chuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis. To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

261.924

While detectives didn't find a bloodied knife laying near his body or anything like that, they did find some sharp objects. Specifically, they found knives. Like, a lot of knives.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

28.525

We're going to tell you a story of how a cold case heated up thanks to a deck and give you a front row seat to how it all unfolded and what officials say still needs to be done to finally close this case. I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck. When first responders heard a call for a medical emergency at the John J. Ashton Towers apartment building come over their dispatch just before 2 a.m.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

292.407

Detectives bagged up all those knives in the house along with a few other items of evidence that they'd spotted right away, like a phone and a pack of Newport cigarettes sitting on a table near William's body. And those cigarettes especially stood out because we know from William's family that he didn't smoke.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

309.554

Investigators also found a single drop of blood in the kitchen sink that they thought could have belonged to the killer when they were attempting to clean themselves up. And investigators seized dozens of items that they wanted to check for any left behind DNA.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

324.88

After taking stock of all the potential evidence inside Williams' home, they set out to look for more evidence outside of the towers with a particular focus on some nearby dumpsters. Having been to this apartment complex many times before, detectives knew that there was a dumpster behind the building and then another used by a stop-and-shop grocery store and a Friendly's restaurant.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

347.341

And those dumpsters were on a kind of cut-through path that people who lived in the towers were known to use, as many residents there didn't have cars of their own. And since these were spots with a lot of foot traffic, detectives thought it was possible that whoever killed William knew about those dumpsters too and tossed away the murder weapon or potentially other valuable evidence.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

Our card this week is William Alvarado, the Ace of Spades from Connecticut. William's case is one that has stumped investigators for more than eight years. But it's one that may soon be called a success story thanks to a tip that came in from someone who saw William's face and case details on a playing card. So today, we're going to do something a little different.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

419.676

So at the start, they collected anything and everything, more sharp objects, a bunch of small pocket knives, and it took some time, but the autopsy report would eventually show that William was killed with a blade that went eight inches deep.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

434.7

So they were looking for something that was at least nine inches, if not longer, which meant that most of the knives they collected at the scene, which were a lot smaller in size, couldn't be the right knife. And what they'd seen back at William's apartment hadn't been much help either. William's home looked pretty much undisturbed.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

454.78

I mean, there was no clear sign of forced entry, nothing to indicate any sort of robbery. It looked like William was killed right where his body was found, in a chair in the corner of his living room where he sat wearing only a white tank top and underwear, which did tell detectives something about their killer.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

537.503

Because the apartment building William lived in was public housing, it was easy for detectives to contact the housing authority and identify both William and his next of kin. And from there, they started knocking on doors throughout the towers to find out who else knew William.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

553.848

And it turned out William knew a lot of people in his building, and he was known to even let a lot of people into his home. Our reporter Taylor went to the towers with Detective Dean to see how these apartments were laid out. And they're kind of set up like a college dorm. Each floor has a common room with couches where residents hang out and a balcony where smokers can gather.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

575.593

And then the hallways are long and narrow. Some residents, including William, would occasionally keep their doors open to chat with neighbors as they walked by or invite them in. William didn't do that all the time, but his family said that he was a social guy and he really, more than anything, just wanted friends.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

594.39

William's brother Oscar told our reporter that William was one of seven siblings and grew up in Puerto Rico. The family moved to Connecticut when William was a teen, and William only ever learned a few English words. He never learned to read or write in either language because, as his niece Melissa told us, he only had about a third grade education, which made him very childlike.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

617.441

But William's limited education didn't stop him from leading a full life, even an adventurous one in his younger years. Oscar said that William had gone back and forth between Connecticut and Puerto Rico more times than he could even count. Once, he broke a record in their family for the most trips back and forth, having gone to the island four times in just four weeks. Here's his brother Oscar.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

660.852

Oscar said William had been traveling back and forth a lot to take care of a family home on the island after their mom and dad died. But as William got older, he kind of hunkered down in the towers and lived a quieter life.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

699.98

That was his niece, Melissa. She said William was also very generous, even when he didn't have the means to be. He was no longer working and was living off a fixed income from monthly Social Security checks. But he often gave away what little he had to others who asked for a loan or something like cigarettes or car repairs.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

719.811

Most mornings, he would get up before sunrise to earn some extra cash that he would likely end up giving away.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

820.306

Oscar said he and William's other brother, who lived in the Towers too, told him that William had been beaten up for asking people for his money back. Oscar and Melissa said that they warned William about being too generous or giving off the vibe that he had more money than he did. They didn't want him to put a target on his own back.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

860.174

Melissa said that it got to the point that people walking by his apartment would just stop in and ask him for money because they knew he had it.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

88.417

on September 7, 2016, they acted on muscle memory. They suited up, turned on their sirens, and drove the familiar route from the fire station to the apartment complex on Valley Street, just as they'd likely done the night before. And the night before that. And the night before that.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

893.077

Oscar said he asked William about the money on the wall. And William said that to him, it was the same as hanging art or photos up to decorate. Oh, that old man has $5 or $20.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

917.652

But in what became his final days, William was keeping track of the loans he was giving out.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

936.409

His family said that he started to put his foot down with one woman in particular, Carmen, who, according to Detective Dean, was nearly 30 years younger than him and lived a few doors down the hall with her boyfriend. Oscar and Melissa said William's relationship with Carmen started as a friendship a few years earlier.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

955.256

Carmen had offered to help William manage some daily medications he needed for things like high blood pressure, high cholesterol. But William's family had become concerned with exactly how much time William was spending with Carmen and how much money he was allegedly giving her.

The Deck

William Alvarado (Ace of Spades, Connecticut)

994.011

Before family members could even raise their concerns about Carmen with detectives in the wake of William's murder, she was already on their radar. Because it turns out it wasn't William who pressed his medical alert button for help that night. According to the medical device company, it was a woman's voice they heard saying something had happened to William and that he needed help.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1050.213

Well, that didn't happen. Williams since passed away, but he ended up serving life in prison in Virginia on those other charges. And Detective Springer even tried taking another crack at him post-conviction, thinking maybe now that he seemingly had so little left to lose, he'd be more open this time around.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

107.543

But on Sunday, May 27th, at around 10.15 p.m., police got a call for something far more serious, something I'm almost sure they didn't see coming in their close-knit community. A mother phoned to say that her eight-year-old daughter, Marjorie Luna, who went by Christy, hadn't come home that evening.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1092.952

It's hard for an investigator to hear about, but it's even harder for the children, now adults, of Green Acres who lived it. Our reporting team met up with two of Christy's old friends, Brenda and Jennifer.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1107.422

They sat down together for their interview, supporting each other through a difficult conversation as they told us how Christy's disappearance had a major impact on the kids that she left behind. Here's Brenda. Brenda.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1139.437

Brenda lived in the same neighborhood as Christy, along with Jennifer. The three would rehearse their cheerleading moves together at the park. But as they grew up, Brenda and Jennifer lost touch. Christy's disappearance had been a poignant part of their childhood. What had happened to her was never really forgotten, of course, but almost repressed far in the past.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1161.019

That is until one day in 2007 when the deeply painful memories from May 27th, 1984 came flooding back for Jennifer.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1240.758

Sorry, she listened. I'm going to let Jennifer tell the story she told Christy's mom, her own story. It's what she's able to recall from the day that she believes was the same day Christy disappeared.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

128.152

Detective William Springer with the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office recounts that Christy's mom, Jenny, told police that she, her boyfriend, and her two daughters had just returned home that afternoon from a weekend getaway.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1294.065

So to recap, Jennifer told us a man had approached her at the park asking if she'd left change behind in the bathroom. While she hadn't actually dropped any change, the little girl said yes, excited about the prospect of being able to buy herself a treat at Belk's store. Jennifer remembered Brenda also being present there at the park during that first part.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1315.062

But then the man went into the bathroom and Jennifer did what he'd asked, waited for him to come back outside so she could go in and collect the change. But he never did.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1504.736

After Jennifer came forward to Christy's mom, the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office got on board, and everything evolved from there. Because Jennifer had recalled Brenda being at the park when the man came up asking about the change, Detective Springer tracked her down.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1519.246

And as it turned out, Brenda did remember an unsettling event involving a strange man and pocket change taking place at the park. But in her recollection, Christy wasn't there, and she and Jennifer got away unharmed. Eventually, Jennifer came to the realization that both incidents had occurred.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1538.959

She'd just been merging bits and pieces from two separate memories together, likely due to the trauma she endured. The time when Brenda and Jennifer were together happened about a year or so prior to Christy's disappearance, and it went like this. A man came up to them at the park and tried luring both girls into the bathroom using the same ruse with the change.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1561.671

Only this time, Brenda recalled that she and Jennifer never actually entered the restroom. Because when they peeked underneath the door grate to see if it was okay to come in and collect the change, Brenda could see that the man was standing there with his pants around his ankles waiting for them. So she and Jennifer took off and got away safely.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1581.664

Brenda alerted her mom, who then called Greenacres PD. Brenda told us that she and her mom returned to the park with a police officer, and the man was still there. Brenda was able to point him out, saying it was him, but it doesn't appear anything ever came from this.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1598.639

Maybe that was because technically a crime hadn't actually occurred since he was behind a door in the men's restroom, so it probably wouldn't have counted as exposure or anything. But looking back, both Brenda and Jennifer see it for what it was, an attempt to bait two children.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1617.196

Brenda said her mom told her that she remembered the officer telling her that the guy claimed to be from out of town and that he'd ridden a bus in. But there's no record of an official police report, so we don't know what name that man gave, if any.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1632.873

In 2009, before the two women ever reconnected, both Brenda and Jennifer separately worked on sketches with the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office in an attempt to identify the men from both encounters.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1658.331

It wouldn't be until 2016 that Brenda and Jennifer would reunite. They were each vaguely aware that they both communicated with law enforcement. But at least for Brenda, she hadn't been fully privy to the details about exactly how this might all be related to Christy. But finally, Brenda reached out to Jennifer through a Facebook post about Christy's case. And Jennifer responded...

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1680.791

They met up in person and dove headfirst into it all. They shared their experiences at the park, Jennifer's devastating assault, and her memory of Christy barging in while it was happening. This reunion ignited a spark that has since turned into a raging fire. A quest to find Christy and figure out who those men were.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

170.66

Christy's older sister, Allison, had woken up their mom around 8.30 p.m. to tell her that Christy still hadn't come home since taking off sometime between 2 and 3 that afternoon. Now, before getting police involved, the family took to the neighborhood themselves to see if they could find Christy at any of her usual spots, like the store, the park, her friends' homes.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1703.922

The two women told our reporters that they'd been shown pictures of suspects in Christy's case before, but as they would have looked more recently, older men, and none of them triggered any epiphanies.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1737.958

And Jennifer says she's so sure of this. I mean, you can hear her hitting the photo she was showing us.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1759.399

And Brenda said she recognized his brother as being the man who tried coercing them both with change during the earlier incident.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1785.087

We'll have photos of the Rambo brothers from these old newspaper articles that covered them along with Brenda and Jennifer's sketches up on the blog post for this episode. So you can check them out.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1809.781

As a reminder, the brothers never served time after pleading guilty to lewd assaults on Christie's other young friend. They only served probation. Later on in 1993, though, Willis Rambo was convicted of sex crimes against his own young stepdaughter. He's currently serving life at a Florida prison for that.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1828.272

However, neither man has ever been charged in connection with the allegations surrounding Jennifer, Brenda, or Christie. Our reporter Madison reached out to Willis in prison with a letter, but at the time we recorded this episode, she hasn't heard back. As far as Detective Springer knows, Charles Chuck Rambo never had to register as a sex offender and is now living free in Tennessee.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1851.801

Madison tried writing to him too, tried calling and texting every number she could find associated with him, but so far, nothing. Despite the fresh investigative leads Jennifer and Brenda's courageous accounts had provided, investigators would need corroborating evidence to bring any charges. And finding fresh evidence so many years later is hard.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1872.816

In an effort to bring forward additional witnesses, Brenda and Jennifer got Detective Springer's blessing to set up the Missing Marjorie Christina Christie Luna Facebook page, dedicated to sharing Christie's story along with their own, hoping to jog memories and encourage others to come forward too. And others have.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1892.028

Jennifer told us that several other women who also grew up in Green Acres have opened up about their experiences with child predators. Some thought their assailants resembled the men in Jennifer and Brenda's sketches. At least one recounted a similar ploy of a man trying to lure her into the park bathroom with change.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

191.889

But after close to two hours of this, the freckled-faced, hazel-eyed little girl was nowhere to be found. So that's when they called the police. Law enforcement went on to do the same sweep the family had. And since they knew her plan was to pick up cat food, naturally, one of the first places they started at was the neighborhood store, Belk's.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1910.311

In turn, Jennifer and Brenda have been able to connect them with Detective Springer so that investigators can keep track of the different reports and try and glean any potential connections with what may have happened to Christine. And in 2019, investigators received their most promising lead in years, all thanks to that Facebook page.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1929.997

And the tip actually pointed to someone new, a man named Guadalupe Martinez, who has since passed away. Although it doesn't appear he had a documented violent criminal history, Detective Springer told us a witness did recount one.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1965.276

And get this, this is the same guy whose family was hosting the fireworks that Christy had reportedly stopped to watch that day after stepping out of Belk's store. So for that reason, this tip felt really promising. Was it possible Christy had a run-in with this man while she was over there?

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1983.174

Looking back at old newspaper articles, there was a report from the Orlando Sentinel that mentioned witnesses seeing a Hispanic man talking to Christy outside of Belk's store the day she vanished, and that she was possibly offered change by that man to go inside and buy fireworks.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

1999.124

While that description is way too vague to decipher if this could have been Guadalupe or not, I thought it was worth noting in case there is any connection. As a result of that 2019 tip, a team of investigators and forensic anthropologists got permission to excavate outside of the home where he'd lived back in 1984, thinking it was possible they'd find Christie's remains.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

2049.972

A new lead hit another dead end. It was a huge blow for investigators. But both Brenda and Jennifer feel like the key to all of this could still be somewhere buried in their old neighborhood.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

2084.952

Our reporters Madison and Emily traveled down to South Florida and took a tour of Green Acres with Jennifer and Brenda. And when they arrived at the Ira Van Bullock Park, the site of their own encounters with the men they believed were the Rambo brothers, they were filled with mixed emotions.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

2128.482

Sadly, Christy's mom, Jenny, was diagnosed with leukemia. She wasn't feeling well enough to sit for a formal interview, but as Jennifer and Brenda were showing us around, she popped out of her house to say hi.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

2146.121

The house on Broward Avenue is the same one she lived in back in 1984. She even moved away for a bit, but ended up returning. She wanted to be there in the same familiar spot in case Christy ever found her way home. For about a decade or more, she kept a massive missing poster of her precious daughter displayed in the front yard for all to see. And she's been fighting for more than 40 years.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

2171.119

And while she hasn't given up, since she was diagnosed with cancer, she's informally passed the baton to Brenda and Jennifer, who she's dubbed Christy's angels.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

2217.372

Staying in Greenacres is a complicated dichotomy, even just visiting. And Jennifer and Brenda feel it too, wanting to move on from this place, but still holding on to hope that the truth is somewhere hidden here, just waiting to be uncovered. The mission has always been about Christy, to find her, dead or alive, and bring her home.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

2239.954

Whether it be sharing Christy's story here on our platform, searching for answers themselves, or uniting with others who have come forward through the Facebook page, they won't stop. Even though it can be triggering, she is why they're more willing to relive the trauma.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

2308.911

If you know anything about the disappearance of Marjorie Christie Luna in Greenacres, Florida on May 27th, 1984, the Sunday of Memorial Day weekend, please come forward. And if you had encounters with anyone named in this episode or even similar encounters as described with men you didn't know, detectives want to hear from you too.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

232.025

Clerks at the store told police they remembered Christy coming in, buying cat food, and watching other kids play arcade games before leaving by herself. Based on all of our research, it sounds like Christy could have been there anytime between 2 and 5 p.m. Right after she left, there were witnesses who placed her outside by a house that was directly across the street within view of the store.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

2330.095

Perhaps you hold the missing piece to solving this mystery and putting a terrible person behind bars for whatever life they have left. You can remain anonymous by calling Crime Stoppers of Palm Beach County at 1-800-458-8477. We'll have other ways you can contact the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office directly in the show notes as well and on the blog post for this episode.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

2357.836

The Deck is an Audiochuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis. To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

27.66

But this storybook community had darkness lurking just under the surface, and it reared its ugly head one May evening in 1984. More than 40 years later, Christy's friends are peeling back the layers and piecing together memories from their childhood, finding that what actually lay beneath was much darker than they ever could have imagined. I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

275.137

In the days following Christie's disappearance, deputies scoured the surrounding areas with canine units and on mounted horses. They searched wooded areas and low-lying bodies of water in and around Green Acres, looking for any signs of Christie. But their findings were about as bleak as the weather that week.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

294.42

It rained for nearly 10 days straight, which I assume made searching all the more difficult and may have also washed away potential evidence. Of course, like any other missing child's case, the parents had to be closely vetted. Detective Springer told us that Jenny and her live-in boyfriend at the time, Larry, cooperated fully.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

314.622

Police questioned them both, and they also agreed to polygraphs, which Springer said they passed. Investigators also looked into Christie's father, but he'd been living in Atlanta at the time, and they confirmed that he'd been there, hundreds of miles away at the time of the disappearance. In addition, investigators talked to Christy's neighbors and schoolmates, including her best friend.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

336.185

Since she was a minor at the time, investigators aren't releasing her name. She was a little girl, just six years old, who bravely shared a disturbing story when police spoke to her.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

367.159

Both Rambo brothers lived in Green Acres on the same street as Christy, about a block away. There was Charles, then 31, who went by Chuck, and Willis, who was 26 at the time. Now, it doesn't seem like the little girl police spoke to indicated that she had direct knowledge that Christy had also been sexually assaulted by the Rambo brothers or that they had anything to do with her going missing.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

390.546

From what we can gather, no one police spoke to described Christy acting differently or distant leading up to her disappearance. The kind of signs that might have been a clue that she too was being abused. But still, these men would have had access to Christy. Detective Springer said that Christy's friend was often over at the Rambo house because their sister was her babysitter.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

4.079

Our card this week is Marjorie Christy Luna, the Four of Spades from Florida. From the outside, Green Acres seemed like a picture-perfect place to grow up. A park, a school, a corner store stocked with sugary sweets and arcade games, all within walking distance. For Christy and her friends, weekends were spent roaming the neighborhood and playing outside barefoot.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

413.314

So Christy would come by to visit and play. This made investigators theorize that maybe Christy had wanted to see her friend after stopping for cat food. Her friend wasn't home at the time, so maybe Christy had popped by the Rambo residence to see if she was there instead. And there was someone else in Green Acres who connected Christy to one of the Rambos, too.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

436.234

An article in the South Florida Sun-Sentinel stated that Ellen Belk, a clerk at Belk's General Store, told police that she had seen Chuck Rambo giving Christy money at the store on one occasion in the past.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

449.46

Detective Springer thought that both Rambo brothers said that they'd been home at least at some point the day Christy went missing, meaning that they would have been nearby since they lived in the neighborhood. But it sounds like no one police spoke with back then could actually place either of them together with her. Still, they had enough to arrest Chuck, and then pretty soon thereafter, Willis.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

474.011

Chuck actually confessed to sexually assaulting Christy's friend during an early taped interview with police. And although both men ultimately pleaded guilty to lewd assault in that case, for one reason or another, neither of them served any jail time, just 10 years probation apiece. Both Chuck and Willis denied ever assaulting Christy or having anything to do with her going missing.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

509.483

But that didn't mean they weren't still suspects. In an attempt to follow up on every single lead, police conducted several searches for Christy at locations associated with the Rambo brothers.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

539.841

While there was nothing directly tying the Rambo brothers to Christy's case, they remained on law enforcement's radar until something else, or rather someone else, shifted their focus. Another child predator who may have encountered Christy the day she went missing. This new person of interest popped up towards the end of 1984.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

569.598

Police in Florida got a new lead when Exeter PD, all the way up in New Hampshire, tipped them off about a then 41-year-old man named Victor Wanetti. While Victor was out on parole after serving time for sexually assaulting his 13-year-old stepdaughter, he became a suspect in the disappearance of another young girl up there, 8-year-old Tammy Belanger.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

605.922

When detectives in New Hampshire started looking into Victor, they were able to arrest him almost right off the bat because they realized he'd violated his parole by having previously left the state to go to none other than Greenacres, Florida. In his possession were children's underwear and photos of young girls that appeared to have been taken secretly from outside their windows.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

629.438

Now, just to be clear, the underwear didn't belong to Christy and none of the photos were of her either. But when detectives in New Hampshire learned of the only girl who went missing while Victor was in the area, they started putting two and two together. According to reporting in the South Florida Sun-Sentinel, he was more than just in the general area.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

651.025

They reported that Victor was specifically seen at a party in the neighborhood and matched a description of a man seen outside the corner store the very day Christy vanished. But when we asked Detective Springer about those two specific details we found in the paper, they didn't necessarily ring any bells for him.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

670.214

He recalled that maybe Victor's family had thrown a get-together at their house at some point that Memorial Day weekend, which would have been nearby but not in the same vicinity as Christy. Either way, I thought that this was important to note in case there is any truth to it.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

764.096

This could have been encouraging, should have been encouraging for a detective like Springer. If these other inmates were telling the truth, it might help in the case against Victor. But Springer remembers that his gut questioned it because of his years watching how convicted predators behave in prison.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

835.143

Even though he somewhat saw this coming, it was disappointing nonetheless. Way down the line, Victor eventually got out of prison and ended up passing away shortly thereafter without ever being charged with anything related to Christy or the other missing girl from New Hampshire, Tammy.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

851.917

And even though those two inmates admitted to Detective Springer that they'd lied about his alleged confession, he doesn't think that we should count Victor out when it comes to Christy's case.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

879.164

Despite hitting roadblocks with both the Rambo brothers and Victor, investigators seemed to have a specific profile in mind when it came to identifying potential suspects. Men with a track record of grooming and abusing children.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

89.713

It was Memorial Day weekend, 1984, and Greenacre's small-town police department was probably preparing for a bit more action than usual. Hopefully nothing too bad, but it was possible that they would get a call to shut down some out-of-hand fireworks, bust a rowdy backyard barbecue maybe.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

951.92

But there was yet another sexual predator looming in the area who investigators hadn't known about until way later. One who didn't surface until their phone rang out of the blue one day with a distressed woman on the other end. She told them they needed to look at her own husband, William Ferris, for Christie's disappearance.

The Deck

Marjorie "Christy" Luna (4 of Spades, Florida)

974.198

See, back in May of 1984, this family lived directly behind Christy along the same path that she may have taken through her neighborhood that day. And the wife said that she would often be out late with the kids on Sundays, giving her husband ample space and time to commit a potential crime. And now she had discovered that he may have had the M.O. too.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1006.38

This second skull was reported to police in October of 2024 after a man's dog sniffed it out in the woods behind his house. And this one was even closer to Bessie's house than the last one. Investigators processed the scene and sent out a team of officers, volunteers, and cadaver dogs to search the wooded area around the property. But once again, there were no other skeletal remains found.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1031.039

As of this recording, the state medical examiner's office is still analyzing that skull. But Sergeant Weir said that it's not looking promising.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

105.649

Jeff had long struggled with a substance use disorder, and after a recent relapse, his wife Stephanie began pulling away. So Jeff had to move back in with his mom, and it seemed like he was in a downward spiral. The two began arguing a lot about Jeff's drug use, and leading up to their final argument, Jeff had been posting about his personal struggles to Facebook.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1067.961

If you're thinking, it's bizarre that two super old skulls popped up within a mile of each other in the span of two years, you're not alone.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1091.512

Unfortunately, until they get the determination back on the second skull, there is not much more investigators can do.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1134.028

Some detectives still think it's possible that Jeff died by suicide or an overdose, and they just haven't found his remains yet. They emphasize that the area he lived in was surrounded by swamps and thick woods, which haven't really been officially searched. And that could be part of the reason he hasn't been found.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1154.375

Jeff's wife, Stephanie, seems to think that this is the most likely scenario as well. But nobody really has a theory as to how. Little Joe, on the other hand, feels certain that his brother is still alive somewhere.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1187.642

Little Joe is constantly checking social media and browsing the internet for any signs of his brother. So far, he says he hasn't seen anything, but he's always coming up with new theories about what could have happened that day in July. His current theory is that Jeff is alive somewhere, using Little Joe's ID to get around.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1207

This theory stems from the fact that several months before Jeff went missing, someone stole the West family's safe, which, among other things, held Little Joe's birth certificate and social security card. And this safe was the only thing missing in the entire house.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1227.697

Little Joe actually confronted Jeff about this when it happened. And when Jeff denied it, they got into a small fight. Now, detectives say that they have yet to hear this theory from Little Joe. He hasn't reported it to any law enforcement agencies. So as of this recording, they haven't done a credit check or anything to confirm or deny it. But Little Joe still sees it as a possibility.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1249.878

Now, I want to note here for anyone wondering that detectives did interview family about little Joe during the investigation and determined that while he and Jeff definitely disagreed sometimes, he didn't seem to have anything to do with his disappearance. He just wants answers.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1275.96

Sergeant Weir feels the same way. It's one of the reasons that he wanted to work with us.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1328.516

If you know anything about the mysterious disappearance of Jefferson Jeff West from Bay St. Louis, Mississippi in July of 2018, we urge you to call Detective Sergeant Dustin Weir at 228-466-5474. Or if you prefer to remain anonymous, you can call Mississippi Coast Crime Stoppers at 877-787-5898. The Deck is an Audiochuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1371.138

To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

143.534

Four days before Jeff allegedly walked off into the woods, he reposted a message from an account called Depression Quotes. It read, Nobody will ever text me and say how much they miss me. I'm not worth missing. But Jeff was wrong. Bessie did miss her son. When a day went by and Jeff didn't show back up at the house, she immediately went to the police.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

166.66

And around that time, she actually commented on Jeff's post, saying, quote, You worth more than you will ever know. Love you, son. Please come home. God, please watch over my son. End quote. Here's Detective Sergeant Dustin Weir with the Bay St. Louis Police Department, who is working the case today.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

222.409

Jeff's older brother, who goes by Little Joe, who we also spoke to, said that he could see the toll the separation was taking on Jeff in the weeks leading up to his disappearance.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

256.912

Little Joe says he remembers the last time he saw Jeff very clearly. He remembered him standing outside in the backyard after his argument with Bessie. At the time, because Jeff disappeared so quickly, Little Joe assumed that he'd gotten into a car with someone. This is actually detectives' working theory as well.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

275.798

They told us that Bessie's original statement was sort of misconstrued when it was originally taken down. What she likely said was that Jeff could have gone into the woods, but he just disappeared so fast she didn't know what had happened. He didn't even take anything with him.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

28.608

Could this have been a suicide? It's a mystery that has stumped detectives and devastated Jeff's family. But they all agree, someone out there knows something I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck. On July 3rd, 2018, Bessie West went to the Bay St. Louis police in Mississippi to file a missing persons report for her son, Jeff.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

334.591

Stephanie was referring to the Bay St. Louis Bridge, which is about three miles from Bessie's house. Detectives also heard from another friend that Jeff was supposedly under a bridge. But this friend added that he thought Jeff was there experiencing suicidal thoughts.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

365.956

According to detectives, there was simply no physical evidence to suggest that Jeff was or ever had been under Bay Bridge after he disappeared. If this was a suicide or even an accident of some kind, they would have expected to find a body, but there was truly nothing. As for the woods by Bessie's house, it seems like they were sort of neglected amid all the searching of bridges and beaches.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

390.655

Our reporters actually visited those woods and confirmed that they are both vast and dense. And because most tips pointed towards Jeff being somewhere else, investigators seem to think that searching them wouldn't be a productive use of time. Now, Jeff did have a car, but he didn't leave in it.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

Our card this week is Jefferson Jeff West, the King of Diamonds from Mississippi. It was July 2nd, 2018, when Jeff seemingly vanished into thin air outside of his mom's home in Bay St. Louis, Mississippi. And when locals caught wind of the disappearance, rumors started flying. Did the 46-year-old change his identity and start a new life somewhere else? Could he have been targeted by a gang?

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

408.605

So if he had gone to the Bay Bridge on the 2nd and somehow not left a trace, he either got a ride or walked over an hour by foot to get there. And he wouldn't have done it all without his phone, which detectives found lying outside of Bessie's house, as if it had just been dropped there.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

458.837

Also, this phone was a pay-as-you-go phone, which didn't back up anywhere. So even if it hadn't been destroyed by the rain, investigators wouldn't have been able to pull much from it anyways. Still, the fact that Jeff left his phone behind along with all of his other belongings seemed to suggest that he wasn't planning on being gone very long.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

478.243

But then again, from Bessie's story, it didn't seem like Jeff had planned to be gone at all. It seemed much more like he had darted off in the heat of a moment. So why wasn't he turning back up? It was lost on everyone.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

551.792

That point came even sooner for Little Joe. He remembers telling his mom that he didn't think Jeff was going to come back. After Jeff disappeared, Little Joe was out on the streets talking to everyone he could to try and figure out where his brother was. Now, Little Joe and Jeff had their ups and downs, as all siblings do, but they were still brothers.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

587.85

A handful of the people that Little Joe spoke with seemed to believe that Jeff's disappearance had something to do with a certain local gang. Now, this gang was identified by Sergeant Weir as the Simon City Royals, a group with a history of violent criminal activity and quite a few members in the area.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

618.69

According to Little Joe, a lot of talk about what happened to Jeff revolved around this gang. His thinking was that maybe Jeff tried to become a member. And during the initiation process, which essentially entails a severe beating by existing members, things went too far.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

650.964

Now, Jeff never explicitly told anyone in his family that he was involved with the Simon City Royals. But after hearing enough of these rumors in the neighborhood, they couldn't help but wonder if there was some truth to them. So they brought it up to the police. Sergeant Weir told us that in Bay St.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

668.595

Louis at the time, it wasn't uncommon for someone who was using drugs to get mixed up with the Simon City Royals.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

684.008

Detectives actually told us that they've heard of the Simon City Royals members going missing from neighboring counties before. So they followed up on this tip as best they could, but they had their work cut out for them. Getting gang members to talk openly with law enforcement is difficult, as is getting outsiders to cooperate due to their fear of retaliation.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

705

But on July 17th, Bessie told investigators about a call she got from a friend that would make things a bit easier.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

733.291

Detectives said that this person, who we'll call Carter, was a, quote, super high-ranking member of the Simon City Royals and known for stonewalling police. So they knew he wouldn't give them anything without proof, which, of course, they didn't have.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

750.439

Still, they tried to locate him and put out bulletins for him that said, wanted for questioning, but they never found him and he never showed up at the police department. Investigators also pulled phone records for a number that they suspected belonged to Carter, but there didn't appear to be any activity on it.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

795.141

So investigators decided to change course. But there wasn't another obvious direction to take things. According to Sergeant Weir, there was zero physical evidence in the case and barely any tips either, aside from the rumors that Jeff's family was passing along.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

822.883

The case stayed that way for about three years. But then in 2022, two things happened. First, Carter was part of a massive indictment of over 20 Mississippi gang members on RICO charges, which are levied when someone's accused of being part of a group committing multiple crimes like fraud or violence as a part of a bigger illegal operation.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

845.059

And some of the charges stemmed from incidents Carter was involved in in July of 2018, right around the time that Jeff went missing. These charges included the sales of both heroin and a stolen gun, though there was no mention of Jeff in the charging documents. Carter was charged again and pled guilty to similar charges in 2023, for which he was sentenced to 20 years in prison.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

86.195

She told police that just the day before, the two of them had gotten into an argument and she thought Jeff had walked off into the woods surrounding her house. Now, typically, this wouldn't have been cause for alarm. Jeff liked to clear his mind in the woods. They were sort of an escape for him. But Jeff hadn't really been himself lately.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

870.037

And the second thing that happens, Bay St. Louis police got a 911 call from some people hiking in the woods. They said that they'd found a human skull in their path. When the operator asked for their location, they gave an address on Washington Street, which is the same street that Bessie lived on. The location of the skull was no more than half a mile from her house.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

952.608

When investigators sent the skull to the state medical examiner's office, it was determined to be, and this is a direct quote from Sergeant Weir, just a very, very, very old, very old skull. I mean, the medical examiner actually seemed to think that it was archaeological. Now, what an archaeological skull was doing in the woods, detectives had no idea.

The Deck

Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)

975.211

Typically, experts deem something archaeological when it is believed to be over 100 years old. So the one thing police did know was that that skull did not belong to Jeff West. And the only thing stranger than finding this skull in the woods was finding yet another skull on the very same street just two years later.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1005.191

Investigators also talked to Kurt, Lisa's other cousin. By the time Sauk County talked to him, he had moved away from the Chicago area. According to Detective Boland, there isn't much more information on Kurt in the case file. It's not clear if Sauk County investigators at the time ever considered him a suspect and if not, why he was ruled out. Next up was Lisa's boyfriend, Mark Hanstead.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1029.942

Or rather, next up should have been the boyfriend. At the time, Susan told investigators that Lisa actually planned the Chicago trip after a falling out with Mark. The two lived together and Lisa needed some time away to decompress. Now today, Susan doesn't remember it that way.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1046.773

I mean, she was never a big fan of Mark, she said, but she couldn't recall that trip being anything more than a routine family visit. Either way, Detective Bullen says the case file shows that he was never a serious suspect.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1094.197

Whatever they did didn't lead to solving Lisa's case. And for the next 20 years, it stayed cold. All the way up until around 1999. That's when investigators got a letter from a man in prison alleging that one of his fellow inmates might have had something to do with Lisa's murder. A convicted serial killer named William Zamestow.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1120.777

At the time, William was serving a life sentence in Wisconsin for the 1978 murder of a different woman.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

113.508

She said that she'd hit it off with this guy that she met inside and she was thinking about going home with him. So she asked Kurt to wait around for about 30 minutes, and if she didn't come back out by then, he could just head home. So when that half hour passed, he did. But when Lisa hadn't returned home by the next day, the cousins began to worry.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1160.94

If you've never heard of William Zamestil before, it's probably because his name got lost in the shuffle of prolific serial killers active in the 1970s. Ones like John Wayne Gacy, Ed Kemper, or David Berkowitz. Plus, William Zamestil killed all over the U.S. He wasn't known for terrorizing a specific city or state like those other men, at least as far as anyone knew.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1186.518

When William's fellow inmate wrote to investigators, he said that he believed William had committed more murders that he hadn't been convicted of. And the letter specifically mentioned a victim found underneath a bridge in Sauk County. Now, investigators were well aware that the information about Lisa's body being found under a bridge could have been gleaned from the news.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1209.476

But still, they took this lead seriously. They started trying to determine William's whereabouts in January of 1976. And as it turns out, he was in custody in Dane County, which is about an hour from Sauk County. But he was serving time for a lesser crime and was granted work release.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1262.864

And that's about all he gave them, by the way. When investigators went to question him around 1999, he presented them with a list of demands and refused to give any information about Lisa unless those demands were met.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1306.095

It seemed that detectives didn't want to negotiate. So with that, the investigation stalled again. Almost another full decade passed without any movement. And during that time, Lisa's brother Grant says that the Stays family honestly sort of gave up hope that they would ever get closure.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

134.125

They couldn't find anyone at the bars on Rush Street who could tell them what might have happened to Lisa. So just after 10 p.m. that night, Michelle called the Oak Park Police Department to file a missing persons report. From Oak Park's original incident file, it looks like that night officers put Lisa's information into NCIC, a law enforcement database.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1376.95

In the late 2000s, the inmate who wrote to investigators about William Zamestil was released from prison and then passed away. And investigators made no further attempts to contact William. Being a convicted offender, his DNA was on file, but DNA testing wasn't really on detectives' minds yet.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1397.126

Plus, they would have needed a search warrant to obtain his pubic hairs for comparison to those found on Lisa, which it doesn't seem like they ever requested. But over the years, forensic testing evolved, far beyond the hair analysis of the 70s. And as Sauk County got access to new technology, investigators sent off some of the physical evidence that they had collected during Lisa's autopsy.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1421.03

The first attempt was in 2001, 25 years after Lisa's murder.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1446.829

According to Detective Bullen, the lab was only able to collect six sperm heads from a smear prepared from the swabs. Conventionally, complete profiles require between 20 and 50 at the least. So fast forward to 2009. That's when investigators sent the foreign pubic hairs and rectal swabs off for testing.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1489.11

And that was the last submission before Detective Boland was assigned to the case in the fall of 2022, which is a bizarre story in and of itself.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1532.284

Detective Bullen says the thought at the time was that maybe the person who killed Lisa wasn't dead or in prison, but living somewhere in Sauk County. And after all these years, he had begun to feel remorseful. So Bullen spoke to the cemetery's caretaker, who assumed that the family had been leaving the flowers.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

155.934

And they checked for accidents in the area. But that's about it. They didn't conduct interviews or do neighborhood canvases or initiate any sort of ground search. They didn't even ask for a picture of Lisa. When 10 days went by with no updates, Lisa's dad, Jack Stays, actually traveled up from his home in Leawood, Kansas to see what was going on.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1554.397

But according to Grant, while his parents used to go up to Baraboo once a year to see Lisa's headstone, they hadn't been back since his mom's stroke seven years earlier. Detective Bullen never did figure out who it was that was leaving the flowers. The cemetery didn't have surveillance video, and the caretaker never saw anyone in the act.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1576.256

Now, it's totally possible it was just a caring local resident. But the whole situation did lead Detective Bullen to start digging back into Lisa's case. His initial thought was that if it was ever going to get solved, it was probably going to be because of advances in DNA testing.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1617.93

They had been hopeful that they would get a full profile this time around, but no such luck. The evidence text said that the sample was just too degraded. Detective Bullen did resubmit additional material in 2023, essentially everything they had left, but he is still waiting on those results.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1656.909

On the chance that the DNA doesn't provide answers, Detective Boland is putting in the legwork too. Currently, he's working on tracking down Mark Hanstead, Lisa's then-boyfriend. But here's the problem. Because original reports are lacking identifying information, he's been having some trouble tracking this guy down. I mean, it's not even totally clear if Mark is still alive.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1681.235

So Mark, if you are out there and if you're listening to this, please reach out to Sauk County. Detective Boland is also trying to figure out if David McKenzie is still alive, just to cover all his bases. But given David's cooperation in the 70s, he's pretty low down his outreach list.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1720.931

In 2023, someone did come forward with a familiar name in a familiar fashion. A convicted murderer serving a life sentence in Wisconsin wrote an article for prisonwriters.com titled, My Friend, a Serial Killer, is Ready to Confess. The author, Justin Welch, wrote that he and William Zamestil, who he calls Wild Bill, are very close friends. He said, quote, And that's why I call him Wild Bill.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1758.914

He has killed so many people and nobody has any idea because it's been so long. Bill has killed so many people he can't even remember half the shit he did. And then there was a catch. Quote, we all know Bill is going to die in prison like me. So I thought maybe if I could get him to come forward on many of his other murders, then the federal government would make a deal with him.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

178.699

He hoped giving officers some more information about Lisa might get things moving, but it really didn't. The Stays family went on to spend over a year living in a state of dread with no idea what happened to Lisa. Her younger brothers, Grant and Tim, were around 17 and 9 when she disappeared. Grant, the older brother, remembers that time just being a blur.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1785.802

I told Bill I would talk to the detectives and tell them everything they need to know if we could have it in writing that Bill and I would get transferred to the federal prison system for the rest of our lives. Bill will not talk until it's in writing we'll get the transfer, just so you all know."

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1805.467

Unfortunately, this ultimatum put detectives in the same place they were in in the late 2000s, the place of negotiating with a serial killer. Now, our reporter, Nicole, talked with the founder of PrisonWriters.com, Lohan Kelly, who published Welch's article. She acknowledged that the site doesn't fact-check stories, so she can't be certain that any claims made are 100% true.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1832.339

But she doesn't dismiss them either. After publishing that story, Kelly actually reached out to William Zamestil herself to learn more about him. And she has been talking with him regularly ever since then. She calls him Bill.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1918.882

When Kelly first started talking with William, she said he had no interest in confessing any of these crimes to authorities. So she took it upon herself to try and convince him otherwise.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

1976.548

So he did. As it turned out, the day our reporter Nicole reached out to Lohan, William Zamastil had a meeting with the FBI to come forward about a murder he was claiming responsibility for in California. She said the DA seemed interested but wanted to do some more investigation before moving forward. Nicole reached out to William in prison to ask him about Lisa's case, but she never heard back.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

2004.399

Although she did get a response from his friend, Justin Welch.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

2126.095

So at least from Welch's perspective, investigators would be wasting their time looking at William. He may be a very bad guy, capable of very bad things. But according to him, Lisa's murder doesn't seem to be one of them. But if that's true, it still leaves us asking, who killed Lisa?

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

2148.638

At this point, Detective Bullen is asking anyone who might have any information at all about this case, no matter how small, to please come forward.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

2178.45

Now 49 years since Lisa first went missing, all Grant wants is for answers to come while his parents are still around to hear them.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

2279.645

If you have any information about the murder of Lisa Stays or her whereabouts between Illinois and Wisconsin in January of 1976, please call the Sauk County Sheriff's Office at 608-355-4495 and ask for Detective Bullen. Or if you'd rather remain anonymous, you can call the Sauk County Crime Stoppers tip line at 1-800-TIP-SAUK. That's 1-800-TIP-SAUK.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

2309.642

And just a reminder, Detective Bullen is still looking for Mark Hanstead and David McKenzie. So if either of you are out there or someone listening knows these men, please have them reach out. The Deck is an Audiochuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis. To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

257.748

And the more time that went by, the more difficult it became for the Stays to hold out hope that Lisa was going to come back to them.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

26.941

But no one ever got to see how Lisa's life would unfold, because that same year, she disappeared. It took nearly two years for investigators to figure out that Lisa had been murdered. But in the 49 years since, they're still trying to uncover why, and most importantly, who murdered her. And now, more than ever, it is a race against time. I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

300.096

After about a year of worrying and radio silence from Oak Park police, Lisa's parents reached out to their local police. Even though Lisa had vanished from a different state, her family hoped that another police department might be able to make some progress.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

350.84

It was in February 1977, a year after Lisa's disappearance, when Captain Al Sellers from the Leawood Police Department reached out to Oak Park PD, quote, expressing a desire to know exactly what the department had been doing in relation to the case. Of course, there wasn't much to share. So Captain Sellers started an investigation of his own. And thank God he did.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

376.968

Because just a few months later, in April of 1977, he came across a teletype bulletin from Wisconsin that caught his attention. The Sauk County Sheriff's Office had sent out a notification about an unidentified body that had been discovered. The remains were described as belonging to a white female, 18 to 35 years old, 5'3 and 105 pounds, with long, dark hair and blue eyes.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

4.218

Our card this week is Lisa C. Stays, the Jack of Diamonds from Wisconsin. In the winter of 1976, Lisa Stays was trying to figure out what exactly she wanted to do with her life. Like so many 20 year olds, she just moved out of her parents' house and started classes at a community college. She was embracing her independence as a young adult.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

403.052

They made note of a tattoo on the upper left thigh. And that was the kicker. Lisa had a tattoo in that exact location. When the Leawood police captain called the Salt County Sheriff's Office, he learned that the woman's body had been found on January 24th of 1976. That is just 10 days after Lisa was reported missing.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

426.381

She was under a bridge at a local creek, completely nude in a fetal position and frozen solid when they found her. Aside from a red and green tattoo and a very small strand of gold-colored metal, which appeared to have been part of some kind of jewelry, there was nothing else on or near the woman to help detectives figure out who she was when they found her.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

450.109

And her fingerprints weren't on file anywhere. So they had given her a temporary name, Frigid Frida.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

475.116

That was Detective Drew Boland with the Sauk County Sheriff's Office. He said that in the early days of the investigation, Sauk County detectives sent out hundreds of flyers with Frida's description to law enforcement agencies across the country. And they released a composite sketch of the woman's face and upper thigh tattoo to the media.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

495.629

The flyers brought in some potential matches from New York all the way to California, enough to fill several thick file folders. But all of those ended up being dead ends. There was nothing at the scene to lead them to believe she'd been killed there. The creek was likely just a dumping ground. And when they did an autopsy, that hadn't made things much clearer.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

518.25

Frida had no defensive wounds, and apparently her brain, which can usually tell a medical examiner a lot, was damaged by exposure to the cold and the subsequent thawing. Now, initially, the cause of death was undetermined, though at a later inquest, it was ruled a homicide.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

536.795

And the only usable evidence they had at the time were foreign pubic hairs on Frida, which suggested that she had recent sexual contact with someone.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

575.458

According to Detective Bullen, hair analysis was a popular forensic technique at the time. It involved placing samples under a microscope and looking at things like color, size, and composition for comparison. So the foreign pubic hair was an important discovery.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

591.832

And at the time, investigators actually rounded up some of their usual suspects to compare their pubic hairs with the ones found on Frida. But there weren't any matches. Frigid Frida was ultimately buried in a local cemetery, and all they could put on the headstone was a small bronze plaque inscribed with unidentified female. At least that's all they could do until the day they could identify her.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

617.009

And with this call from Leawood, that day was now. They had to exhume the body to take x-rays for a dental comparison, but when all was said and done, it was Lisa's day's. The realization that Lisa's body had been found just 11 days after she was last seen was a tough pill to swallow after 15 months of agony.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

640.764

At the time, Lisa's mom, Susan, wrote a letter to the editor at the Baraboo News Republic. This is her today at 91 years old reading from that letter.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

680.669

Susan went on to express her gratitude for the work of Sauk County law enforcement.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

739.915

And Susan was right. With this ID, the investigation was only beginning, this time with Sauk County at the helm. But they still weren't sure when exactly Lisa was killed in the 11 days between her disappearance and the discovery of her body, or even where she was killed in the nearly 200 miles between Chicago and Baraboo, Wisconsin.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

765.16

If she was murdered in Sauk County, it would have been the area's first homicide in almost seven years. So Sauk County detectives started where Oak Park PD should have those 15 months ago. By learning everything they could about Lisa and what she was doing in the days leading up to her disappearance. And they began with Michelle, Lisa's cousin that had been hosting her.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

798.83

According to Michelle, the day before she was last seen, Lisa ended up meeting and hitting it off with a singer named David McKenzie. Lisa had spent the night at David's place before returning to Michelle's safe and sound on Tuesday afternoon. Tuesday night is when Lisa disappeared.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

844.56

Lisa's parents, Susan and Jack, didn't know anything about Lisa's possible drug habits. But they said it wouldn't have totally surprised them if she was experimenting. I mean, it was the 70s, and Lisa was a free-spirited girl. She was very...

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

89.898

On the afternoon of January 14th, 1976, Michelle Laudman and Kurt Rahn were out going from bar to bar on Rush Street in Chicago. But they weren't looking to drink, dance, or party. They were looking for their cousin, Lisa, who had been in town visiting on her college break. The night before, around 6 p.m., Kurt last saw Lisa at a bar called Mother's.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

923.47

Investigators were never able to confirm whether or not Lisa had drugs in her system when she died because a talk screen seemingly never made it into Frigid Frida's autopsy report. But they did go and talk to David.

The Deck

Lisa Staes (Jack of Diamonds, Wisconsin)

982.355

Not only was David forthcoming with investigators, but he also had an alibi. He was performing in another bar the night that Lisa disappeared, which detectives confirmed with bar staff.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1012.267

Detectives followed other leads, too, including a possible connection between Marshall and a wealthy Odessa businessman named B.L. King, who owned several nightclubs. That name stands out to Detective Gonzalez because he was actually murdered in Odessa in 1996. And his murder is also unsolved.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

103.977

And as Pedro prepared his own dinner, one of his many roommates, 25-year-old Augustine Chacon, joined him and began chopping potatoes. But the quiet of their ordinary night was shattered out of nowhere when the front door to the little one-story house swung open and a short man with a slight build appeared in the doorway.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1033.081

His case is on a deck, along with a woman who worked as a dancer at one of King's clubs and who was also murdered. We covered the case of that woman already, actually, Eula K. Miller, in another episode, which I'll link to in the show notes. But long story short, despite these extensive witness interviews and the many possible suspects, police have never been able to identify Marshall's murderer.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1057.055

But Detective Gonzalez believes that his death was likely tied to drugs.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1122.611

So this made the murder of Augustine, who had no known history of drug use, all the more puzzling and challenging for police to solve. Detective Gonzalez says that his murder seems like it was possibly a random attack. But again, with so few details about his life, it's been hard to develop a real solid theory.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1178.479

While the initial investigation into Augustine's murder was flawed, Odessa police did attempt to chase down the few leads that they did have. Remember, Augustine was still alive when he was taken to the hospital the night of the shooting, and police learned that he might have left them with one clue.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1196.229

Apparently, before he died, he had mustered the strength to speak just a few words, and he told a nurse that he knew he was going to die and that he had been robbed. Now, this information gave detectives at least some indication of what the motive was for Augustine's shooting.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1213.797

And one of Augustine's roommates did mention when police re-interviewed him that Augustine had money on him the night he was shot from selling a Mustang a few days before. He thought Augustine had sold the car in Littlefield or maybe Brownfield, Texas, but he didn't know how much he got for it. Now, this was the first time detectives heard about this car, but not the last.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1236.332

Another roommate also told police that Augustine might have recently sold a car in Brownsville and that he may have had money on him from that sale. But when they looked at Augustine's wallet, what they found confused them a little.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

125.046

His face was covered with some kind of orange fabric as he raised the gun he held in his right hand. Pedro thought that he saw another man standing behind him, but he couldn't be sure. And Pedro heard the gunman shout, don't move, in Spanish. And he watched as Augustine, still holding the kitchen knife, turned around and then gunshots rang out.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1287.626

Could Augustine's sale of the Mustang have been connected to his murder? It certainly seemed like a lead that was worth tracking down. But if detectives ever located the buyer, it's not noted in the file. And the other items in his wallet just seemed to support his roommate's description of Augustine as a hard worker. The court summons was just for a traffic ticket.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1309.643

And that other social security card turned out to be for Augustine's wife, Lupe, who was believed to be living in Mexico with their four daughters. The report Detective Gonzalez has doesn't say when investigators first talked to Lupe, but it does note that on March 6th, which is three days after the shooting, police received a call from her with another possible lead.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1352.577

Lupe called back the next week, urging investigators to speak to two other men Augustine apparently knew, named Julio and Gustavo. She told police that they had maybe been involved in some other crimes in Odessa, but there's nothing else in the file about them.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1368.797

Now Lupe also passed along a rumor that she'd heard about a poker game that might have been going on in the house that night before Augustine was shot. If this is true, it would mean that the roommates police did talk to who all had the same story weren't truthful because they never mentioned a game. It's a possibility Detective Gonzalez has to consider.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1423.041

Investigators did apparently look into a tip that came in from another one of Augustine's roommates about a beef he might have had with a man named Guillermo. From the notes, it seems like Guillermo might have owed Augustine gas money for rides to work. And when interviewed, Guillermo said that he'd been playing pool at a local bar the night of the shooting with a friend.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1444.494

And when they talked to that friend, he confirmed Guillermo's alibi. So that's where their investigation into him ended. Now, it seems at that point, investigators went back to Pedro, the roommate who was with Augustine in the kitchen when he was shot. And they told him basically, listen, if you didn't really tell the truth before, maybe if you were scared or something, we can protect you.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1468.512

But he didn't change his story. And so that is where the investigation stopped. When Detective Gonzalez took over the cold case unit in August of 2021, that is all she found on Augustine's case. No follow-ups, no other leads to chase down. So she got to work. She sent the bullet and fingernail scrapings collected from Augustine at his autopsy out to the lab to be tested.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

147.399

Everything suddenly went dark and someone had cut the lights. Pedro ran as a couple more gunshots were fired. He made it to the living room where some of the men slept and dove behind a bed for cover. He saw Augustine stagger from the kitchen to the bedroom and collapse on the floor.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1493.117

She pulled all other evidence to be photographed to create a better record of the case. Though the one thing she couldn't find was the window screen that investigators supposedly took into evidence. She found a few things that weren't noted in the original file, too.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1507.589

a citation from a minor car accident, and a small handwritten receipt from Giles Motors in Littlefield, Texas, indicating that Augustine was making his last few payments on a 1973 Mustang. But what surprised Detective Gonzalez the most was the size of the file.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1526.619

In her office, she has massive filing cabinets filled with folders for each case that she's trying to solve, and Augustine's is one of the smallest. When our reporter sat down with her, she placed the file for Augustine's case next to the file for Marshall's to show, like, literally the stark contrast. And Augustine's is less than a quarter of the size of Marshall's.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1549.831

The folder practically looks empty in comparison.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1572.33

She says Marshall's case may have gotten more resources simply because there were more leads right off the bat.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1622.338

She gave us a little insight into another reason the investigation into Augustine's death might have been so small. Odessa in the 80s was packed with men working temporary jobs in the oil fields, and the area catered to that demographic and at times suffered as a result.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

165.914

In the chaotic aftermath of the shooting, one of the roommates turned the lights back on and someone managed to call police to report a person shot at 1319 East 4th Street. That call came into the Odessa Police Department at 9.37 p.m.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1710.436

So far, Detective Gonzalez has only been able to track down one of Augustine's roommates, Eugenio, who spoke with her at the Odessa Police Department. He said that he wasn't home when the shooting happened, but he had seen Augustine at home not long before.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1742.748

Detective Gonzalez also recently connected with one of Augustine's daughters, Socorro. Socorro was only three years old when her dad was killed, so anything she knows about him or his life in Odessa or even his murder is all secondhand. But she told the detective that there was a woman named Bertha who Augustine was close with when he lived there.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1800.114

Detective Gonzalez hasn't been able to track Bertha down simply because she has so little information about her. And she hasn't found any record of anyone by that name being murdered in Odessa either. So she thinks that Bertha may have been a nickname, or maybe the murder took place somewhere else, or maybe she's a missing person who no one reported missing, or maybe Socorro was mistaken.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

181.88

When first responders arrived at the house just minutes later, they found Augustine lying face up, bleeding from his chest and his right leg and fading in and out of consciousness. As medics got to work trying to save him, the responding officers assessed the scene. Such crowded housing setups were known as man camps.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1824.099

Without more information, though, there's not much she can do to look into that potential part of Augustine's life. She's not sure if Socorro has any more information about Bertha, and she hasn't been able to get in touch with her again to even ask. Since Lupe had given the tip about the poker game happening the night Augustine was shot, Detective Gonzalez hoped to speak with her.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1847.218

She thought Lupe was living in Mexico, but Socorro told her that Lupe came back to Littlefield, Texas often to visit family and would be in touch to discuss the case. But as of our recording this episode, that still hasn't happened.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1870.144

Detective Gonzalez wants people to know that they can feel safe coming to her with information. And if they want an extra layer of protection, there is an anonymous tip line that we'll give at the end.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1886.894

She also wants people to feel comfortable coming forward in Marshall's case as well.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1910.751

She's going to need your help to do that. Detective Gonzalez said that unfortunately, she's never had the chance to talk to most of the suspects herself, and she never will because many of them have passed away. She said it's going to take new information from a witness to move this case forward. Marshall's cousin Scott also holds out hope for an answer.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1933.099

Scott told us about what he remembers about Marshall's murder and how it impacted his family, especially his Aunt Wilma, who was Marshall's mom.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1957.102

Scott, like Detective Gonzalez, pleads with anyone listening to please call if you know anything about Marshall's murder.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

1992.873

As for Augustine's case, Detective Gonzalez is still hopeful that someone will put her in touch with his family members and roommates or even people who knew him when he was living in Odessa. She asked if we could list the names of people that she's hoping to interview to learn more about Augustine's life.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

202.379

They were a common arrangement for Odessa oil field workers who often came into town for only a few months and without their families. The lead investigator on this case, Detective Lauren Gonzalez, says that seems like what this house was. And most of the men living there had moved to town for work from Mexico or somewhere else in West Texas.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

2057.748

So if you or anyone you know are connected to any of those people who were living in Odessa in 1982, please reach out. And if you know anything at all about the murders of Augustine Chacon or Marshall McCarthy in Odessa in 1982, contact Detective Lauren Gonzalez at 432-335-4926. Or you can remain completely anonymous by contacting the Odessa Crime Stoppers. Their number is 432-333-8477.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

2106.468

The Deck is an AudioChuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis. To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

223.01

So many people in one house meant that there were a lot of potential witnesses. Records show at least 10 other men were there. And this could have been a goldmine for investigators in terms of collecting eyewitness testimony. But there was one small problem. All of the men in the house spoke only Spanish, and the officers apparently didn't speak any.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

246.545

The officers needed a translator, but instead of calling in a professional, investigators turned to a bilingual neighbor to assist them. Detective Gonzalez found a record of this investigative mistake in the case file. Apparently, the neighbor told these guys that if they weren't in the house or near the house when Augustine was shot, they should just leave.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

25.623

Though their paths may have never crossed in life, their deaths have been forever linked by proximity and the nearly 43-year pursuit of justice for them both. But as the Odessa detective on the case told us, Augustine's case grew cold because there were so few suspects, while Marshall's has never been solved because there are just too many. And that's where you can come in.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

267.381

The neighbor told people only to stay if they knew something about the shooting. It wasn't even clear how many people there were at first. The file says between 10 and 15, but after the neighbor delivered that message, only eight people hung around. This means that between two and maybe even seven witnesses who were at the scene of this shooting just left without talking to police.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

291.139

And that was just the first of multiple problems that would stymie the investigation. Other mistakes happened as officers began collecting physical evidence from inside and outside the home and analyzing the crime scene after Augustine rushed off to the hospital.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

307.509

Officers searched the house for shell casings or possible bullet holes, and they found a dent and a scrape on the refrigerator door that appeared to have been caused by a small object, like maybe a bullet. They also looked closely at two windows above the kitchen sink and found two bullet holes in one of the window screens with powder burns and residue around them.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

330.45

Now, they tried to measure out the trajectory of those bullets, and it seemed like maybe one hit the fridge after being fired from outside through the window.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

340.232

Detective Lauren Gonzalez, who leads this case today, said that officers checked the house for shell casings, but they didn't find a single one, meaning someone either picked them up before police arrived or Augustine was shot with a revolver that doesn't expel casings. Though, one officer did find a bullet fragment on the floor near the door between the bedroom and the living room.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

365.18

The evidence of bullets coming through the window screen and striking the refrigerator suggested that in addition to the shots fired inside the kitchen, someone had fired at least two bullets from outside. Since no one reported hearing a gunshot before the gunman came in, those shots were most likely fired after he or they left the house.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

385.453

The original case file shows that investigators made notes of how they tried to track the trajectory of these bullets, and they also made a sketch of the crime scene. But other than that, it seems like the responding officers didn't do much to actually document the scene. Here's Detective Gonzalez.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

Our cards this week are Augustine Chacon, the King of Clubs from Texas, and Marshall McCarthy, the Five of Hearts from Texas. On the same evening in March 1982, in the same Odessa, Texas neighborhood, two men living very different lives were shot dead inside their homes just a half mile apart.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

441.57

That means they didn't take a single photo of the room where Augustine was shot or of where they found him laying injured.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

449.832

Detective Gonzalez says Odessa was short on seasoned detectives in the 1980s, and she believes that it's possible that some of the officers who responded to the shooting were rookies who may not have known how best to process the scene, which would have included taking pictures of what had just become a murder scene.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

469.249

So at 11.10 p.m., less than two hours after he'd been shot, Augustine was pronounced dead at the hospital. This was now a homicide and an investigation that was off to a bad start. And things were about to get worse as investigators, already scarce on resources, were stretched even thinner.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

489.733

And that's because only 20 minutes after Augustine died, another call came into dispatch from a man named Carl who lived in the same neighborhood where Augustine had been shot. He called to report that his roommate, a 37-year-old man named Marshall, had been shot inside their home as well.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

49.818

I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck. At around 9.30 p.m. on March 3rd, a man named Pedro was cooking in the kitchen of the cramped one-bedroom house in West Texas that he shared with a dozen other men who all seemed to be in town for work in the Odessa oil fields. The crowded quarters meant that the men had to take turns cooking.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

517.918

When police cars pulled up to 1513 East 5th Street around 11.30 p.m., they were met by two men who frantically flagged them down and led them to apartment four. Just inside, Marshall McCarthy was lying on the floor just like Augustine had been. But Marshall wasn't drifting in and out of consciousness like Augustine was. He was already gone.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

554.719

Marshall was found wearing jeans and boots, but no shirt. And he had a blue towel draped around his neck and an orange, white, and yellow towel in his hand, almost like he'd been interrupted while getting ready. On the floor next to his body was a silky textured jacket. He was wearing expensive jewelry and his wallet with cash inside was still on him.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

577.285

So robbery didn't seem like a motive at first glance. Odessa police now had two men shot to death inside their homes on the same night, half a mile apart. But while the two crimes had certain obvious similarities, the differences in the victimology quickly emerged.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

594.936

For starters, the little information officers had learned about Augustine from his roommate suggested that he was a hardworking family man who didn't use drugs and had no criminal history. An autopsy performed on him the day after his death found no drugs or alcohol in his system.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

611.186

Marshall, on the other hand, had quite a different lifestyle, and his autopsy confirmed that he had cocaine in his system when he died, according to a toxicology report. Marshall's cousin Scott told our reporters that his cousin lived a life that involved a lot of partying.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

646.547

They didn't see each other much because until recently, Marshall lived 500 miles away in Houston. He'd gotten into some trouble there, so his family thought it would be a good idea for him to go live with his aunt and uncle, Scott's parents, in Odessa. And he'd made the move only a year or two before the shooting. Scott had seen him only a bit more often after that.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

665.995

And apparently, Marshall had fallen in with a bad crowd in Odessa too, based on what detectives found in his apartment.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

691.806

Carl and his other associates all spoke English, so language wasn't a barrier in this case. And maybe that's why detectives at the time were seemingly able to learn a lot more about him. And they confirmed pretty quickly that Marshall was likely a drug dealer.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

707.096

In fact, they found out that it was basically common knowledge around Odessa that Marshall almost always had cocaine on him and was usually selling it. As the parallel investigations into Augustine and Marshall's murders unfolded, the similarities and differences continued to appear. At Augustine's autopsy, they were able to recover an intact bullet from his chest.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

729.731

But for some reason, they didn't establish what caliber the bullet was, only that it was small. In addition to gunshot wounds to his chest and leg, the autopsy also revealed that Augustine had an injury and powder burns on his hand, as though he probably attempted to grab the gun as it was fired.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

748.804

An autopsy performed on Marshall found that he had multiple gunshot wounds, though Detective Gonzalez wants to keep the specifics of where on his body he was shot close to the vest. So all they knew was that both men had been shot multiple times with small caliber bullets at close range.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

767.492

And one significant difference is that while there were no casings collected from Augustine's home, there were three at Marshall's. They found two under his body and one on the coffee table. Detective Gonzalez says that there's nothing in the case file to show any indication that the bullets that hit these two men came from the same weapon.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

787.83

In fact, she doesn't believe that the murders were actually related at all, meaning there were two shooters in the same neighborhood that night. But trying to find out who those shooters were went very different in these two investigations due to another big difference in the cases, the number of possible suspects.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

809.668

Augustine's roommates had told police that they didn't know anyone who might have wanted to hurt him. In Marshall's case, officers quickly had a list of people that they wanted to know more about. There was Marshall's roommate, Carl, who had found him and called the police. Except officers learned that he hadn't called the police right away.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

845.162

There was also Carl's former brother-in-law, Eddie, who told police that he and his wife, Carolyn, had been over at Marshall's apartment the night of the shooting and that everything had been fine when they left somewhere between 7.45 p.m. and 8 p.m. He told police that he and his wife had each gone to separate friends' houses after that.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

863.737

There's no mention in the file of neighbors seeing any other visitors come by later that night, but police talked to Marshall's next-door neighbor and he reported being awakened at like 10 or 10.15 p.m. by the sound of two men and a woman arguing in Marshall's apartment.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

888.396

A couple living in the building also mentioned hearing an argument shortly after 10 p.m. So that wasn't the only time police heard about a potential fight. But Detective Gonzalez says there was nothing else in the case file about how police at the time investigated that alleged argument or how they confirmed Eddie and Carolyn's alibis.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

908.277

Then there was a woman named Toni, who Marshall had been dating. She told police that Marshall had gotten into a fight at a bar a few nights before he died. And she also said Marshall had told her that he had a number of enemies.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

949.281

And apparently, this David guy wasn't the only one who had a problem with Marshall. Tony said that the same week he was killed, Marshall had gotten into a heated argument with a guy dressed like a cowboy at a local club called Graham Central Station. They also heard from a different woman, that an Odessa drug dealer named Johnny had killed Marshall.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

971.187

Officers tracked Johnny down after another witness reported hearing him say something troubling about Marshall.

The Deck

Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)

988.356

Investigators asked him about that comment, and he didn't deny it.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

103.386

But what was surprising was the fact that the front door was cracked open. So Penny turned on her phone's flashlight, pushed the door open, and began calling out for George, slowly inching into the house a little to call out a second time when he didn't answer.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

1054.042

As Asia and George's relatives struggled to come to terms with their deaths, Lindsay clung to life. But tragically, she wouldn't get the one more chance her mom was praying for. She died on January 5th, 2020 in the hospital surrounded by relatives. It was a devastating loss to her family and a real blow to the investigation as well. Here's Detective Snowden again.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

1094.002

Now working a triple homicide investigation, Detective Snowden wondered if perhaps only one of the victims was the intended target, and maybe the other two were merely collateral damage, which left detectives to speculate about a motive.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

1179.506

We'll call this person of interest Charlie. He had a criminal history with arrests dating back to 2001. In fact, his nickname was C-Murder. And by all accounts, he knew both Asia and George. Coincidentally, on December 30th, detectives ended up bringing Charlie in on a completely separate charge.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

120.396

When she got no response that second time, Penny went back to the corner store hoping that George would just turn up there eventually like they'd planned. But he didn't. In fact, Penny waited outside the store for another handful of hours without word from George. So bracing the storm, she walked back to his house to check one more time.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

1212.046

So in the process of talking to him for that thing and then connecting the dots, they decided to bring up the triple homicide. And according to Detective Snowden, Charlie just shut down. The little information he did provide in terms of his whereabouts on the date of the murders couldn't be corroborated. And when detectives tried to schedule a follow-up interview, he lawyered up.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

1235.822

Detectives theorized that there might have been some money owed from George to Charlie, or vice versa, and maybe that could have been the motive. There were also some indications that Asia might have been involved in a relationship with Charlie, which created a rift between the two men, and therefore another potential motive for murder.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

1256.256

George's brother Jonathan was also suspicious of Charlie, who had apparently lived at the Old Slag Roadhouse with George at some point.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

1279.602

Jonathan wondered, if Charlie had this attitude towards his own family, what did that mean for a roommate? Detectives went back over their surveillance video hoping to track Charlie's movements. And while there was no visual evidence putting him at the crime scene that night, there was nothing showing him to be anywhere else either.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

1299.752

But because Charlie lawyered up, there was no way to continue down this line of questioning. Plus, detectives didn't want to get tunnel vision based on rumors.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

1342.97

Another theory that was spreading on the street at the time revolved around drug dealings and some disgruntled gang members. George's brother had heard the same thing, though he didn't want to talk about this theory in detail out of fear of possible retaliation. And Detective Snowden was familiar with this as well.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

140.788

When she stepped into the dark entryway again, she heard what sounded like a very faint moaning sound coming from somewhere inside. She followed the noise, using her phone's flashlight to light her path, through the living room, past the kitchen, toward several bedrooms at the back of the one-story house. When Penny shined her light through one of the doors, she saw blood.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

1433.41

Today, Detective Snowden estimates that between family members, neighbors, and friends, she's spoken to over 30 people in this case that claim to have second or even third-hand information about who committed these murders. But no one has had any proof.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

1448.677

She even mentioned that she's recently gotten some tips from the state playing card decks, but those tipsters only gave information that police already heard. Snowden said it has been over four years since she's had a real promising lead in this case.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

1548.041

What Detective Snowden is really hoping to find is the gun that was used in the murders. If she can tie the projectiles to a specific gun and then trace that gun back to a specific person, that could be enough for probable cause.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

1563.763

But in the meantime, Detective Snowden wants to go back through the case file again, page by page, to see if there's anything that was initially missed or anyone that should be re-interviewed. She wants her other detectives to get involved too, especially those who weren't with the department in 2019, because they can come at it with fresh eyes.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

1584.931

And it's not just this triple homicide that she's focusing on.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

1608.102

But we try. For George, Asia, and Lindsey's families, closure is paramount.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

166.238

More and more of it as she panned her light over the bed where she finally saw where all of it was coming from. There was a semi-conscious, fully-clothed woman lying there on the verge of death. Penny could tell that this woman was breathing, but it sounded labored. In the dark, she assumed that the woman had been beaten up.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

1664.665

You can help bring closure to these families. If you know anything about the triple homicide of George Kirkland, Asia Norman, and Lindsey Foster Herr in Moss Point, Mississippi in December of 2019, we urge you to speak up. You can reach the Moss Point Police Department at 228-475-1711 and ask for investigations. Or, if you prefer to remain anonymous...

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

1689.614

you can call Mississippi Coast Crime Stoppers at 877-787-5898. The Deck is an Audiochuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis. To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

186.825

And when Penny tried to wake the woman and the woman didn't respond, Penny ran to find a nearby friend. The two returned to George's house together, and that's when Penny called 911. Just four minutes later, at 7.10 a.m., Moss Point police officers showed up at the scene.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

203.899

While it was now light outside, the house was still dark, so officers had to use flashlights to navigate the house and find the bleeding woman. They also found two additional victims in another bedroom. Here's Detective Kimberly Snowden, the lead detective on the case.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

21.277

But in the days after the attack, rumors and conspiracy theories began running wild, creating a tangled web that detectives are still unweaving more than five years later. I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck. Around 1 a.m. on December 22nd, 2019, a woman we'll call Penny walked over to her local corner store in the rain to get some pills from her nephew, George.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

249.571

Police immediately recognized the two deceased victims because they both had previous run-ins with the law. One was Penny's nephew, 32-year-old George Kirkland, whose family owned the home. And the second victim was 19-year-old Asia Norman, George's on-again, off-again girlfriend.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

267.566

They were found on the floor of the primary bedroom directly across from the room where the still-unknown and still-alive woman was found. Now, police could tell that the unknown woman hadn't been beaten like Penny originally thought. She'd actually been shot a single time in the head. And George and Asia had been shot multiple times, though Detective Snowden didn't want to reveal where.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

291.386

She did tell us that from the way George and Asia were positioned, it looked almost like George may have been trying to protect Asia or like she was hiding behind him. The bed in the room was still made, so it didn't seem like the pair had been sleeping at the time of the attack, and George still had on his shoes.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

308.539

But it did appear to them that the unknown woman had been sleeping, or was perhaps under the influence of drugs, though that was never proven for sure. When she was transported to the hospital, she was administered drugs in the course of her care, which made doing any kind of drug test or tox screens down the line impossible.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

328.087

But tox screens would later reveal that both George and Asia had amphetamine, methamphetamine, and THC in their systems. And that, combined with the fact that the house they were all found in was known for drugs and illegal activity, made the theory that she might have been using, too, a strong possibility.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

394.238

She's saying it was an evidentiary nightmare. Though detectives were aware of illicit activities going on in the house, they had never actually responded to any calls there before. There wasn't much furniture inside, but with so many people in and out of the house, there were a lot of personal belongings.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

Our card this week is George Kirkland, Asia Norman, and Lindsey Foster Herr, the two of clubs from Mississippi. When George, Asia, and Lindsey were all murdered on a stormy Mississippi night in 2019, nobody in the area heard or saw anything.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

415.459

Detectives actually needed to call in help from another department to just sort through everything and collect the items that seemed most likely to have some kind of relation to the crime. They didn't find any firearms, but they did collect clothing, an LG phone, small amounts of narcotics, bullets, and shell casings.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

434.81

Now, the LG phone was found lying on the bed near George and Asia, but it seems like it was a burner phone. Detectives weren't able to determine who it belonged to or pull anything useful from it. The projectiles they found were all of the same caliber, which Snowden wouldn't release, and they were recovered from the room that Asia and George were found in as well.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

455.679

Now, there were no bullets found by the third victim. The bullet that shot her never exited her body. Now, as all this police activity was unfolding, people in the neighborhood were beginning to wake up for the day and the massive police presence caused a bit of a frenzy.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

536.42

Even though George and Asia's identities were spreading by word of mouth, it wasn't until the next day that police officially released their names to the public. Almost all other details of the crime scene were kept under wraps to protect the integrity of the investigation, though. And the lack of official information fueled a very powerful rumor mill.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

558.157

Somebody told Terrence that his niece Asia had been found in a closet surrounded by a pool of blood clutching a hammer in her hands, almost like she had been trying to defend herself. He remembers hearing that there was, quote, blood leaking out the closet, end quote.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

574.368

George's brother Jonathan heard that George was found shot in a bedroom with a dresser blocking the door, while Terrence heard that George had been shot execution style while on his knees. Another rumor held that both female victims were pregnant at the time of the attack, which the ME's report reveals is not true.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

593.388

So all this gossip made an initial canvas of the neighborhood challenging for detectives.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

614.201

No one in the neighborhood reported seeing anything or even hearing any gunshots, likely due to the storm that night. So with no eyewitnesses or earwitnesses to the crime, detectives decided to see if they could get anything from surveillance cameras in the area. Now, unfortunately, there was only one neighboring home that had anything.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

636.043

And when police went over there to ask about the footage, the owner said that the cameras were just for show and they didn't actually work. Investigators also tried to check cameras from ATMs to nearby gas stations, a liquor store and a housing project to see if there was anything unusual on them around the time of the shooting. Maybe something like cars leaving the area at high speed.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

658.024

But they didn't find anything to help lead them in any particular direction. So with nothing else to go off of, detectives decided to focus on the victims.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

709.815

And most importantly, who was their third victim? Well, they were about to find out by running her prints. It was about a week after the murders when police learned that the unconscious woman at the hospital was 37-year-old Lindsay Foster Herr. And it turned out Lindsay's mom, Cindy, had been worrying about her daughter, who had been MIA for days at that point.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

80.551

Now, he wasn't there when she arrived and didn't show up for the multiple hours Penny waited around in the storm. So finally, she decided to just walk to his house, which was right around the corner on Old Slag Road in Moss Point, Mississippi. When she got there, she could see that the house was totally dark, but that wasn't necessarily a surprise. The power had been cut off a while back.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

814.383

I know you might hear it a lot in true crime, but Cindy said it was true of her daughter. She really did light up a room. She was kind with a great sense of humor. But Lindsay had started using drugs in high school, and though she had periods of sobriety, she was in a rough patch leading up to the shooting.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

832.59

Lindsay had separated from her husband, and Cindy was taking care of her kids, not always knowing exactly where Lindsay was. Investigators determined that Lindsay had been staying at the Old Slag Roadhouse prior to the shooting, though it wasn't totally clear when she'd moved in or how she'd even met George and Asia.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

851.885

The last Cindy heard, her daughter had been living in Losedale, Mississippi, which is about an hour from Moss Point. Detective Snowden wasn't sure how Lindsay and George met either, but said it was likely that narcotics were involved. And George had a history of drug arrests.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

879.146

According to George's brother, Jonathan, George had gotten out of prison a few months before the murders and was about to celebrate his first Christmas beyond bars since he was 16. Jonathan said that despite spending most of his adult life incarcerated, George had a soft side.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

941.411

Following his release, George had been living in that house on Old Slag Road and would frequently rent out rooms to people in need. In fact, right up until two months before George's murder, Jonathan and his family had been staying in that house as well. Jonathan knew of Lindsay, but he never overlapped with her. He moved out just as she moved in.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

963.548

And they did that because his wife had been getting bad omens.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

981.28

Jonathan's wife wasn't the only one worried about safety in that house. Asia's family didn't like the idea of her staying there either. They were concerned about her relationship with George and his influence over her. The pair had met through somebody else, but had quickly become inseparable.

The Deck

George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)

999.245

And in the days leading up to the murder, Asia's family had actually been trying to get her to move back home with them.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

100.675

The hunters had originally called Price County because it was the closest law enforcement agency. But after one of them reached a hand into one of the jacket pockets, the group decided that they should probably call neighboring Vilas County instead. Because inside, there was an ID bearing the name Susan Poupart. And the hunters knew that name.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1011.707

Regardless, after this round of interviews, detectives believed that Robert, Joe, and Fritz were likely involved in Susie's murder. But without a confession or DNA evidence, there just wasn't enough for an arrest. Here's Detective Sergeant Cody Remick, who is working Susie's case today.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1074.599

But this theory is completely based on circumstantial evidence. So for a few years, the case was in limbo. Meanwhile, Susie's children were growing up and beginning to understand more about their mom's tragic death. Jared, who was six years older than Alexandria, began picking up on things first.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1120.506

And when Jared began putting the pieces together, he wanted his sister to know the truth as well. Alexandria had grown up thinking that her aunt was actually her mom.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1142.458

As both children grew up, it was impossible for them to escape the rumors. Everyone on the reservation seemed to think that Joe, Robert, and Fritz were getting away with murder.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1168.578

Two years into the investigation, not much had changed. The suspects were the same, but little progress had been made. Investigators hadn't even sent off all that shelved stuff for forensic testing to see if it would shake anything up.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1183.163

Detective Remick said that he doesn't really know why it took so long, but he assumes that maybe investigators at the time just put testing on the back burner while they focused on talking to witnesses and interviewing their prime suspects. But Susie's children actually have a different theory.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1235.782

This is a question we've grappled with before. In fact, we just covered the stories of other murdered indigenous women in Wisconsin on Crime Junkie, and their loved ones share the same grievance about how the cases of indigenous women are so often mishandled. You can listen to the stories of those women told in two parts through the link in our show notes.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1256.997

Ultimately, it's hard to determine what effect, if any, the delay in forensic testing had on Susie's case. But the garbage bags, the clothing, soda cans, chip bags, and the mattress pad cutting that were eventually sent to the FBI lab for blood, print, and fiber testing in 1992 didn't actually produce anything of evidentiary value. So after that, the case went cold for about a decade.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1296.181

In a moment when things were flowing, during a case review in 2003, investigators realized that a detail that they had overlooked could actually hold the key to a breakthrough in Susie's case. And it all revolved around that deer hair that they had collected from the forest where the partial remains were found.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1315.898

Now, detectives hadn't thought much of the deer hair at first because the area where Susie was found was meant for deer hunting. But eventually, someone put the pieces together that there was also deer hair in the trunk of Robert's car, which had been vacuumed by detectives after his crash.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

133.39

That was Sheriff Joseph Fath. He was one of the Vilas County detectives that was investigating Susie's missing persons case, which had come to Vilas County six months earlier on May 22nd of 1990.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1383.007

Investigators took this blow hard. It was their first possible break in the case in a decade. And just like that, it got washed away. Another decade would pass before they did any more testing.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1397.902

But in 2014, the garbage bags, clothing, beer cans, and mattress pad cutting were sent off a second time, along with oral swabs from Robert, Joe, and Fritz with the hope that new technology might bring different results. And this time, the lab was able to find some things. For one, Susie's green underwear had a small amount of what was determined to be male DNA.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1424.281

And when I say small, I mean very small. Detective Remick actually said it was, quote, pretty much as close to zero as you can get. They tried again in 2024, sending off the underwear for MVAC testing, coincidentally with funding help from the nonprofit I founded, Season of Justice. But unfortunately, there just was too little DNA material to develop any sort of profile then either.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1450.604

But back in 2014, the other thing that the lab found were some strands of hair on the mattress pad cutting.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

146.392

When the report was filed by Susie's sister Dawn, she hadn't heard from or seen her sister in two days, which was especially alarming because the two weren't just sisters, they were roommates, along with Susie's two young children. Now, 29-year-old Susie was known to go out and maybe even stay out all night.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1475.538

Over the years, detectives routinely sent out whatever items they had left for DNA testing. But every time they struck out. And now they're running out of things to send.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1519.173

As for the suspects, Joe, Robert, and Fritz, detectives continued to interview them over the years, any time that they could. They tried everything to get more information out of them, but they were always met with the same response.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1537.87

At one point when Joe was in jail on an aggravated battery charge, the DA offered him a deal if he would go talk to Fritz while wearing a wire.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1557.011

Detectives even coordinated with the DA's office to facilitate John Doe hearings in 2003 and again in 2007. John Doe hearings are specific to Wisconsin. They're a special kind of court process that helps the state decide if there's enough evidence to charge someone with a crime.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1573.62

Their goal is to protect people from unnecessary prosecution and also to allow law enforcement to gather evidence needed to establish probable cause. Basically, the prosecutor calls witnesses and presents everything they do know, and then the judge determines if the case should move forward with formal charges and against whom.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1593.27

They're labeled John Doe because at the start, the state might not know who exactly to charge with the crime. It's essentially the DA trying to connect the dots before going full speed ahead with charges. In Susie's case, the John Doe hearings allowed Joe, Robert, and Fritz to be subpoenaed and questioned under oath about Susie's case without being arrested or charged.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1615.285

The hope was that the hearing would elicit some sort of confession. But unfortunately for detectives on the stand at the hearings, Joe, Robert, and Fritz all maintained their innocence and pleaded the fifth in response to a handful of questions. Now, we've tried every listed number for Joe and Robert.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1633.78

We've left multiple voicemails and wrote a letter to Fritz, who is currently in prison for unrelated offenses. But as of this recording, we haven't heard anything back from any of them. To this day, the general consensus among the Locke du Flambeau community seems to be that the three men were involved in Susie's murder. Susie's children are more vocal than anyone.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

164.989

So when she went to a party on the 19th and didn't come home by morning, it was no big deal. But two days passing with her not so much as checking in on her kids was completely unheard of. And that's how Dawn knew that something was wrong.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1656.31

But there's only so much detectives can do without more physical evidence.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1689.622

Today, Jared and Alexandria still live in Loc de Flambeau. They've been there their whole lives, close to their mom. Alexandria gets told all the time that she looks so much like her mom that sometimes it's hard for people to even be around her. And her house is actually on the same road as the house where her mom was last seen.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1709.912

But while staying in that town has kept Susie's kids close to the memory of their mom, it's also kept them close to her suspected killers.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1727.375

Another reminder comes in the form of a billboard with Susie's picture on it that has been up on the reservation since 2007. Detectives are actually getting it replaced with a new version soon. The hope is that it will keep Susie on everyone's minds, and eventually someone will come forward with the puzzle piece they need to get justice for her and her children.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1749.789

Here's our reporter Nicole again talking with Jared.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1814.842

Every now and then when Jared starts to really miss his mom, he'll take out her picture and talk to it.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1857.287

If you know anything about the 1990 murder of Susan Susie Poupart in Loch de Flambeau, Wisconsin, please speak up. You can contact the Vilas County Sheriff's Department at 715-479-4441 or the Loch de Flambeau Tribal Police Department at 715-588-7717. Or if you prefer to remain anonymous, we'll have contact information for their local Crimestoppers in the show notes.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1885.703

The Deck will be off next week, but we will return the following week with a brand new episode. The Deck is an AudioChuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis. To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

204.761

Investigators at the time had canvassed the reservation Susie lived on in the town of Locke du Flambeau, and they made a list of other partygoers. There turned out to be a group of around 20 or 30 people who had been at the party that night.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

236.138

There was one detail that had come up again and again, though. A handful of partygoers seemed to remember that around 4 o'clock in the morning, they saw Susie leave the party wearing blue jeans and a red and black jacket that a friend had lent her. But she wasn't leaving alone. Per witnesses, she had gotten into a car with two men, 19-year-old Joe Cobb and 18-year-old Robert Elm.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

24.406

Susie never made it home, and six months later, her remains were found in a nearby forest. The men Susie was last seen with became immediate suspects, but to this day, there just isn't enough evidence to charge them with her murder. Or is there? I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

262.736

According to detectives, Locke du Flambeau is a small community where everybody pretty much knows everyone else. But it didn't seem like Susie and these men were friends or anything prior to the party. And although Susie was about 10 years older than Joe and Robert, partygoers say that Robert had been flirting with her that night.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

294.215

It's important to note here that police were already well acquainted with Joe and Robert. They had a history of getting into fights and domestic abuse. Both had been violent toward women. So detectives were suspicious about their potential role in Susie's disappearance right from the jump. Here's our reporter Nicole talking with detectives.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

336.502

Joe, for one, had confirmed that he was in the car that night, but said that he'd been too intoxicated to remember much else. Robert was the one who'd been driving, and he seemed to remember more. He said that he and Joe got into his car with Susie that night to bring her home.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

352.122

But for some reason, on the way there, at around 4 or 4.30 a.m., they stopped to let her out in front of a local elementary school. Then they continued on to Joe's mom's house, where they ended their night. Now, this story left investigators with a bunch of questions. For starters, why did Susie want to get out of the car near an elementary school on a Sunday at 4 o'clock in the morning?

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

376.04

And by the way, this school wasn't on the way to Susie's house. So why were they driving past it in the first place?

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

Our card this week is Susan Susie Poupart, the Seven of Spades from Wisconsin. When 29-year-old Susie went to a house party on her reservation surrounded by friends and so close to home, she should have been safe. But when the mother of two left the party in a car with some younger men, things took a turn for the worst.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

404.4

But it would be months before the hunters made their discovery of the jacket and jawbone in the forest. And in that time frame, a third name popped up. Fritz Schumann.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

428.516

Fritz was the oldest of the bunch at 22. He, Robert, and Joe all went to the same school and knew each other from the powwow circuit, which is basically a series of cultural gatherings celebrating Native American traditions. According to Sheriff Fath, all three men had started behaving strangely in the wake of Susie's disappearance.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

447.184

They'd started racking up domestic violence reports and acting differently toward their significant others. In no time, tons of rumors were flying around the reservation about all three of these men.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

487.97

Now, you can't arrest someone based on a rumor, but all that chasing down must have spooked the three men, because in quick succession, they all decided to leave the reservation. Fritz Schumann began working at a cranberry bog in a neighboring county, and Joe Cobb and Robert Elm suddenly tried to enlist in the Navy.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

568.743

After the discovery of the remains on Thanksgiving Day, investigators spent about six days out in the Chequamegon-Nicolet National Forest with cadaver dogs processing the scene. And along with the jacket and ID, they collected a pair of jeans, a shirt, a bra, underwear, trash bags with duct tape, soda cans, chip bags, a piece of white mattress pad, deer hair, and a shard of plastic.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

592.438

Early on, it was determined that the clothing did belong to Susie, that the garbage bags were consistent with those sold on the reservation, and that the shard of plastic, which investigators thought could have been part of the trim on a suspect's vehicle, was actually just a broken piece of logging equipment that seemed to have nothing to do with the case.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

611.921

As for the rest of the evidence, since it was 1990 and they didn't really know about DNA yet, it was pretty much just set aside without any forensic testing. What investigators really wanted to find in their continued search of the forest were more remains, mainly the rest of Susie's skull to see if there was any trauma or something that would help to determine a cause of death.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

634.326

But they never located it.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

651.215

It took about three or four weeks for dental records to definitively confirm that the remains belonged to Susie. But the ID and the clothing were enough for detectives to notify her family. Here's Jared Poupart, Susie's son. He was only eight years old when his mom was taken from him. And in that instant, it felt like his whole world turned upside down.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

755.33

At nine years old, Jared couldn't understand how something like this could happen, especially to his mom. He adored her. Here's Jared talking with his younger sister, Alexandria Poupart. She was only three when they lost their mom.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

77.884

It was Thanksgiving Day in 1990 when the Price County Sheriff's Department in Wisconsin got a call from some deer hunters in the Chequamegon-Nicolet National Forest. The hunters said that they were packing up to head home when a red and black nylon jacket hanging from a tree caught their eye. And when they got closer, they noticed something on the ground next to it, a partial jawbone.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

803.846

Unfortunately, after the forest search concluded, it still wasn't clear what exactly it was that Susie got. With the little he had to work with, a pathologist ruled Susie's death a homicide. But there was just no way to figure out her cause of death. Not only were there so few remains, but the warm, swampy condition of the forest had also aided decomposition.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

826.032

Plus, the remains had been disturbed by animals. The bones actually had gnaw marks indicative of bear, wolf, or coyote activity.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

858.069

Now, local media has published that Susie had been, quote, sexually assaulted and left naked. But I'm not totally sure where they got that from. Investigators told us that considering the state of the remains, there really was no way for the pathologist to determine that one way or another.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

874.912

In the end, the most helpful thing the remains gave detectives was a reason to reach back out to their primary suspects. Because both Robert and Fritz were known to hunt for deer in the forest where Susie was found.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

898.387

So detectives began tracking down all three men. They found Joe in Illinois working at a popcorn factory. Apparently, he'd never made it to the Navy. And this time around, he suddenly seemed to recall a bit more about that fateful May night. He told detectives that he remembered going back to his mom's house with Robert after dropping Susie off and having a beer before Robert went home.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

921.688

Obviously, this sudden recollection matching Robert's story almost five months after his initial interview was suspicious to detectives. It just seemed all too convenient. As for Robert, detectives flew down to Pensacola, Florida to interview him at Navy boot camp. His story didn't change, but something else bubbled up after that conversation.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

942.763

It had to do with a car crash that Robert had gotten into just a month before Susie's remains were found when he was home from boot camp. A story had begun to spread about the circumstances of the crash because the road Robert was speeding down, Chequamegon Forest Trail, was right next to where Susie's body would be found.

The Deck

Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)

991.03

Robert had been driving a friend's car during the accident. But after this conversation, detectives decided to seize his personal car, which he would have used to drive Susie home from the party that night. They brought it to their crime lab, where it was processed and vacuumed. But that evidence was shelved, along with all of the other evidence from the dump site.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

101.959

when she made it to Donna's apartment and from the very first moment she saw the front door slightly ajar, she knew that whatever kept Donna from work wasn't good. She pushed the door open to reveal a quiet living room. Too quiet. She made her way toward the kitchen and reached for the light switch to better see, but when the bright light washed over the kitchen, she saw a horrifying sight.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1012.341

Those also dropped. So he was free two years later in 1979 to attack another woman. David Miller was arrested again and convicted of sexual assault and attempted rape. He was sentenced to six years in prison, but didn't end up serving all of it.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1045.512

Like mom drives a Rolls Royce money. Various reports say that either his father or possibly stepfather was a property developer, both in Illinois and South Florida during a lucrative period for developers. After he got out on parole in 1983 is when the South Florida Sun-Sentinel reports he moved down to Florida to join his parents. He pretty quickly met a woman who would become his first wife.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1072.062

But no one was gonna make a good man out of this guy. Less than a year after his move to Florida, he's sneaking into that woman's apartment in Deerfield Beach. So by 1985, Miller had been convicted of five serious crimes in two states and had been sentenced to a total of 19 years, but served just five of them.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1094.014

In 1993, Miller was once again released and he again settled in the Boca area where he remained through the rest of the 90s. So when an uptick of attacks similar to what David Miller had been convicted of previously started in 1996, it is no wonder that he was at the top of investigators' suspect list.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1116.495

And therefore, a very likely candidate to be the mystery David from the porterhouse who was dancing with Donna the night she died. There was only one way to be sure though. Van Houten and Carl took a photo of Miller to the bartender and asked him if he recognized David.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1147.128

Van Houten didn't have to worry about making any quick moves to get David off the streets. Broward County Sheriff's deputies took care of that for him. You see, there had been an attack on a different woman two days before Donna was killed. It was almost identical to the incident that led to David Miller's first conviction in Florida. I mean, down to the apartment complex.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1169.577

An article in the South Florida Sun-Sentinel outlined the similarities between the two attacks. In the exact same apartment complex in Deerfield Beach, a 17-year-old woman had left her apartment to do laundry, just like the young woman did in 1984. And just like that previous survivor, this woman had returned to her apartment to encounter a stranger who snuck in through an unlocked door.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1193.831

The assailant wrestled her to the floor and tried to remove her clothing. Now, sadly, this young woman did not have a sister and boyfriend show up to help her, although she did manage to struggle and scream loudly. And that shout sent her attacker running, but not before he punched her so hard he broke her jaw and knocked out a tooth.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1217.187

Broward County became aware of David as quickly as Van Houten had, and they were able to arrest him after the woman in Deerfield Beach identified him in a photo lineup. So he was safely put away, at least for the time being, which gave police in the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office more time to look into him for Donna's murder.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1238.059

And they started by talking to him directly, although that wasn't much help.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

128.345

Donna was on the floor next to the fridge, covered in blood, and still wearing the green suit she'd worn to work the day before. Frantic, the colleague called for help, but when paramedics arrived, they quickly realized there was no hope of reviving Donna. Retired Detective John Van Houten, who everyone on the squad calls Hootie, was the lead detective on Donna's case for many years.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1293.812

Even though they didn't make headway with David Miller himself, the arrest paved the way for something else, a warrant to search David Miller's property. Police were able to recover a number of things from David's apartment and storage unit, including sheets, pillowcases, and other bedding.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1314.386

They also found a pair of women's underwear, a bikini top, a bra, and a pair of silver earrings along with a jean jacket that had suspicious-looking stains on it. There was also a shot glass from a local bar called Polly Esther's,

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1329.858

And they were pretty sure that these items meant something and likely corresponded to other crimes, but none of it connected to Donna or any of the other women who had survived attacks in Boca. The most troubling discovery was David's stash of pornography. Not so much that he had it, but that he had done some amateur editing.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1414.895

When David Miller's arrests began making news in January, it brought other women forward who said David attacked them. One was a woman named Noelle Culhane, and she had a very specific story about being attacked and stabbed in her home by David Miller after he followed her home from the porterhouse.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1436.041

At the end of that January, police organized a live lineup, bringing in a number of women who'd been attacked in and around Boca over the last few years, including one woman named Tamara Parks and Christy Anderson, who we've talked about before.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1474.332

The case against David Miller was getting stronger with these victims' IDs, and they'd been making headway in Donna's case too. Turns out, David Miller had lived just across the street from where Donna worked at ADT. So Van Houten and Springer come up with a theory. Maybe he'd seen or even stalked her before exchanging cards with her that night at the Porter house.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1499.059

It wouldn't be necessary, but based on what they knew about his pattern, it made sense. They know that Miller left the bar before Donna, and they believe that he followed her home when she left. Then it would be simple for him to make a show of pretending to run into her in the neighborhood or in her apartment complex.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1517.849

Or maybe all of this is wrong and she invited him back to her place and was expecting him to show up.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

152.334

I mean, even starting from day one. He told our reporters that when he first entered Donna's apartment, it was clear that she'd been stabbed. And he was pretty sure he knew with what. And that theory came from the fact that a knife in her kitchen was missing.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1585.046

There is also option number three. Maybe he slipped in the open sliding door like he was known to do and surprised her from behind. I mean, remember, her pillowcase was missing after all. And in Christy's case, the pillowcase was used to hide her attacker's face. Why hide your face if you were invited in?

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1606.297

At the beginning of February, while David was being held without bail, the Palm Beach Sheriff's Office named him as a suspect in Donna's murder. Before the year was up, David Miller had been identified in another lineup by Noel Culhane, and a trial started for the attempted second-degree murder of Tamara Parks. No amount of money or fancy lawyers could beat the case against him, though.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1630.673

A jury returned a guilty verdict in just four hours. And here, finally, Miller was given a substantial sentence. A judge sentenced him to 40 years in prison with a mandatory minimum of 30 years. Prosecutors also moved forward with Christy Anderson and Noelle Culhane's cases, trying them together in the summer of 2000.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1653.531

Donna's sister, Dawn, attended that trial, and she remembers vividly how Christy described her assault.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1673.105

Just stood there and cut her arm to the bone. David Miller was found guilty of two counts of attempted first-degree murder, as well as two charges of burglary. The judge in this case sentenced Miller to two consecutive life terms. And in a statement to the press, the state attorney made a point that this would not include any option for parole. And that could have been the end of it.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1699.938

But somehow it's not. Because again, David Miller was able to get his sentence reduced... and now he is a free man. He was released last November. Local news reports that on appeal, David Miller and his lawyer challenged the witness identification that landed him in prison. Miller was able to get the charges for two of these three cases reduced through a combination of appeals and plea deals.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1729.322

The South Florida Sun-Sentinel reported that a court upheld the mandatory minimum sentence of 30 years in Tamara Park's case, But that by pleading guilty to the others, Miller was able to get the two life sentences reduced to 30 years as well, served concurrently. And that dropped the total amount of time in prison from the rest of his life to just 28 years.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1753.995

Because he was able to get two additional years shaved off for time already in custody.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1766.636

There is still, of course, Donna's case, for which no charges have ever been brought. If he were tried and found guilty of her murder, it could put him back behind bars. But due to a lack of evidence that would prove any theory beyond a reasonable doubt, no one has ever been charged with her murder, including the only suspect they've ever had in the case, David Miller.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

179.228

No. That second voice you heard was Sergeant William Springer, who also worked on his case for the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office. You'll hear both men talking back and forth quite a bit throughout this episode.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1792.516

Here's our reporter, Madison, speaking with Springer.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1873.922

Perhaps the most troubling part about David Miller's release is that the Department of Corrections has placed him in a temporary housing facility in Tallahassee, near Florida State University.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1909.753

When our team reached out to David Miller to see if he wanted to comment on Donna's case or speak to us, we didn't hear back. Donna's sister, Dawn, sees David Miller's recent release as perhaps the most pressing issue now, even more than getting a definite answer on what happened to her sister.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1942.396

Van Houten, Springer, and Dawn all agree. Miller should not be free. And they're hoping that there is a way to connect him to old cases and get another conviction to stick.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

1984.494

Springer is still the investigator assigned to Donna's case, and he hasn't given up hope that the evolving science could mean that there are new tests that could reveal a missing piece of the puzzle.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

204.161

Although paramedics had moved Donna from the kitchen to the living room by the time police arrived, the pool of blood in the kitchen made it clear where the stabbing had taken place. And both detectives agree that the evidence pointed to a surprise attack.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

2088.444

Springer had no comment on our question about any additional testing that could be done now that DNA testing has progressed. And the department has expanded their access to it. We know that much. But he believes that there is significant potential, that there are other crimes that could be connected to Miller.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

2106.227

And he hopes that anyone who was assaulted in Boca Raton, Deerfield or Delray Beach will come forward now.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

2166.463

Dawn, of course, knows that more than anyone.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

2243.57

If you were attacked in the Boca Raton area, Delray Beach area, or Deerfield Beach area in the 1980s or 90s, and you think that you might have been a victim of David Miller, you can contact those police departments with that information. Police are also interested in anyone who believes that they may have had something stolen by Miller.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

2265.094

Like if you're missing things that could have been recovered by the search of his property. They also want to speak to anyone who may have seen David Miller around Donna's apartment complex on the evening of her murder. If so, you can call Primestoppers of Palm Beach County with tips at 1-800-458-8477. And we'll have contact information for all of the departments we listed in the show notes.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

2304.031

The Deck is an AudioChuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis. To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

243.442

The rest of the apartment revealed little else. A sliding glass door had been left partially open, but detectives believed Donna had left it that way herself to allow her cat to come and go. There was a missing pillowcase from one pillow in Donna's bedroom, but the bedroom itself appeared otherwise undisturbed.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

262.521

Detectives gathered as much evidence as they could, taking knives, clothing, sampling blood smears in the apartment and dusting for prints. But none of the evidence gave them any leads. There were no unidentified fingerprints and all the blood that they found was Donna's. But there was other evidence at the scene that helped investigators at least establish a timeline.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

27.598

That suspect even went to prison for other crimes, but now he's a free man. And police believe solving Donna's murder could help save other women in Florida. I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck. When Donna Martin hadn't shown up for work by lunchtime on Tuesday, January 12th, 1999, her colleagues at ADT Security Services were pretty worried.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

284.87

For one, Donna's body was in full rigor and lividity had set in when she was found, suggesting that she'd been dead for at least six hours. They also found a styrofoam clamshell container filled with wings open wide on the counter on top of a plastic bag, along with a receipt for the wings showing that they were picked up on Monday from a local spot

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

305.755

that Donna was known to frequent after work called Porter House Bar and Grill. All of this suggested to investigators that Donna was likely killed sometime in a short window Monday evening after getting home from the bar, but before she could dig in and eat. The Porter House bartender told Van Houten he remembered seeing Donna the night before on Monday.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

328.781

She'd sat at the bar, and he even remembered her talking to another customer, a man.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

340.457

Business cards, that is. The bartender said Donna left at around 10.45 p.m., wings in hand. But the man had left a few minutes ahead of her. He didn't know what they talked about or if they were planning to rendezvous after leaving the bar. But it's a possibility detectives considered. Even if it wasn't this guy, they wondered if Donna planned on sharing those wings with someone.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

365.094

Because though you can't clearly see the number of wings in the container from the crime scene photos, we were told that there was a large number ordered.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

382.406

There were two clean plates found on her living room floor, possibly knocked down from her coffee table when paramedics got to the scene. So did she have company? And if so, who was joining her? Detectives got a lucky break when they found out the bartender actually remembered the name of the guy who danced with Donna. Or his first name, at least. David.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

4.187

Our card this week is Donna Martin, the Eight of Hearts from Florida. Donna Martin was stabbed and killed in her own home in South Florida back in 1999. And police believed that the man who may have killed her was the very same man who had turned Boca Raton into a hunting ground. But police have been unable to pin Donna's murder on him.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

407.886

They got an even bigger break when another Palm Beach County detective named Rich Carl told Van Houten and Springer that he felt like Donna's case had some striking similarities to another case that he'd worked just a few months before. And it just so happened that one person of interest in that case was named David.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

437.183

This other attack Detective Rich Carl remembered had happened less than four months before. That would have been in September 1998. And a lot of what we know about that attack comes from a deeply reported article by Lisa Ocker for Boca Raton magazine. A young woman named Kristen Anderson, or Christy as most people knew her, had returned home after work to walk her dog.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

461.12

When she got back to her apartment, she saw her front door was slightly open, but she just assumed that she'd forgotten to close it when she left. So Christy went inside and was listening to voicemail messages in her kitchen when all of a sudden someone grabbed her from behind and pressed a knife to her neck before stabbing her eight times.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

481.86

Christy screamed so loud and so much that she later told reporters she thought it scared off her attacker, giving her the ability to call for help. Now, Christy survived and was able to tell police that while she hadn't seen her attacker, she had this strong feeling that she might know who the suspect was. Someone who'd been watching her walk her dog a week or two before.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

507.231

Now, she didn't have an interaction with the guy. She just remembered him glaring at her in a way that made her so uncomfortable it stuck with her. And here's the really interesting part. Yes, he had attacked her from behind, and that's part of the reason she didn't see his face. But she had an opportunity to look at him after he attacked her as he was running out the door.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

529.396

But even then, she couldn't tell anything about his facial features because covering his head was a pillowcase. When Detective Carl compared this with what he knew about the crime scene at Donna's home, he immediately recognized the parallels. A blitz attack stabbing in a Boca Raton apartment, a missing pillowcase from each scene, with no apparent sexual assault on either woman.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

554.91

The scarier thing about these two attacks was that it wasn't just those two. Detective Carl believed them to be part of a disturbing pattern of crimes. Home invasions, assaults, women being punched and choked, and even one seven-year-old girl being taken from her home at night. It was all in the relatively small, safe, and wealthy area of Boca.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

581.26

These crimes were public, even printed in the local papers. But since none of the women had been able to successfully identify their attacker, police hadn't publicized the connections that they suspected. Most of the short blurbs mentioning an attack ended with a request for anyone with information to call law enforcement.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

601.241

So it wouldn't be surprising that locals, Donna included, would be unaware that there might be a predator among them. Her sister, Dawn Edwards, who you'll hear in a moment, remembers how excited Donna was to move there. I mean, she'd just gone through a divorce and was starting a second career after retiring from a government job in her 50s.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

624.273

She was ready to leave northern Florida, where she grew up, and to start a new life. Less Florida country girl, as Dawn puts it, and more posh professional living by the water.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

711.45

When Donna died, she was 53. And she was in management. So I doubt she was a totally naive and impressionable person. But someone had clearly taken advantage of her kind heart and good nature. And when Dawn first got the news about her sister's murder, she didn't have the first clue who it could be. I mean, she struggled to even come to terms with her new reality.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

735.09

I mean, just the week before, she had talked to Donna on the phone and now...

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

764.238

Dawn and her family wanted more answers, so they flew down to South Florida to meet with Springer and Van Houten. By the time they arrived, Dawn was told by investigators that they'd already ruled out some of the usual suspects, ex-boyfriends, for instance, and in particular, her two ex-husbands, one of whom also lived in South Florida.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

796.795

Dawn remembered investigators telling her that they had even looked into the female colleague that discovered Donna at the home. But when we talked to them, they said that she had never been a serious suspect. Which only left David missing. And while the bartender at the Porter House might not have caught a last name, Detective Rich Carl knew it all too well.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

819.765

So did three other law enforcement departments in the area around Boca and West Palm Beach.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

831.095

David Miller was a person of interest in Christy Anderson's attack, the stabbing from the previous September. Police records don't reflect exactly how he was connected with Christy's case, but we do know that he had been on the radar of law enforcement for years. For starters, he had two previous convictions for violent crimes in Florida.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

850.61

The first was an attack on a woman in 1984, not long after he'd moved to Florida from Illinois. David, who was 29 at the time, had been arrested in Deerfield Beach, which is just south of Boca Raton. In that case, Miller had snuck into a woman's home when she had left to do some laundry, leaving her sliding glass door unlocked.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

86.374

She had relocated to join the company in Boca Raton, Florida, less than two years before. And they knew her well enough to know that it wasn't like her to go AWOL. So one of her co-workers volunteered to stop by Donna's apartment and check on her. It was 11.45 a.m.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

871.178

And when the woman came back inside, David had overpowered her and forced her to the floor, pulled off her shorts, and used the cord of an electric razor to whip her. Whatever he planned to do next was interrupted when the woman's sister and her boyfriend arrived. And the boyfriend chased David down and was able to hold on to him until police arrived.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

892.652

For that attack, he was convicted of sexual battery and aggravated battery. A judge sentenced him to four years in prison, but he was released early for good behavior, getting out in the spring of 1986. The second conviction he had is from 1989, when he was pulled over for driving with a broken taillight. It was the early hours of the morning in Delray Beach, which is just north of Boca this time.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

919.172

This incident is described in detail in Boca Magazine. When the police officer walked up to the car, he found a six-year-old girl in the passenger seat. When the officer asked David Miller what was going on, David said that he had found the child out walking by herself and that he was trying to take her home.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

938.254

Now his story didn't add up and no part of his story would explain why they also found rubber gloves, a knife, nunchucks, and a small revolver in his car. So police arrested David Miller and he was charged with armed burglary, kidnapping a minor, carrying a concealed firearm, and carrying a concealed weapon. But in the end, most of those charges didn't stick.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

964.466

Prosecutors dropped all but the firearms charges. Boga Magazine says that was because, quote, the little girl couldn't explain how she was taken from her bed or by whom, end quote. But even with the most serious of the charges dropped, Miller was convicted of a felony of possessing a firearm as a felon and sentenced to nine years.

The Deck

Donna Martin (8 of Hearts, Florida)

987.805

This criminal behavior that we see in Florida wasn't even new for David Miller. He had a record of violence against women even before coming to Florida. Along with charges over the years for having a concealed weapon and drunk driving, some of which were dropped, he also was charged with battery in 1977 after he was arrested for breaking into a hotel room and assaulting the two women inside.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

1006.707

But police have no reason to suspect that Siobhan was a sex worker. Plus, they had more viable leads to run down first, like exploring connections that she had in the drug world and finding that boyfriend that she was having trouble with. And, as it turns out, he wasn't the only man in her life that they had to be concerned about.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

101.442

Now, Siobhan was known to be pretty headstrong and likely to hold a grudge if you had wronged her, but Shimonya couldn't see any reason why she would just block her out of nowhere. So she decided to switch tactics and call Siobhan's phone, except it went straight to voicemail. Shimonya called again, voicemail.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

1043.197

It turns out Siobhan had actually taken out restraining orders against two of these men. One of the restraining orders was against a man who we'll call John. And it was granted in August of 2016, just a few months before Siobhan vanished. That's when she came into the police department to report a threat to her life. Detective Lopez was actually the one to take down that report.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

1084.713

A direct threat on her life just four months before Siobhan went missing was obviously suspicious to detectives. But when they looked into it, they found out that John was in Ohio when Siobhan went missing. Plus, he submitted to and passed a polygraph test.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

1101.221

Detectives told us they still haven't officially cleared John, but it's safe to say that they were more concerned with running down other leads. And another one of these men, who we'll call Adam, stood out for his violent criminal history, including murder, stalking, and felony firearm charges.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

1119.758

Apparently, Adam and Siobhan had been together kind of on and off since at least 2012, and their relationship was rocky from the start. Adam had been released from prison about 10 months prior to Siobhan's disappearance. And putting the pieces together, Adam was actually the boyfriend that Martin brought up in the first days of the investigation, the one who'd hit Siobhan with her own car.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

1144.571

This crash happened on October 14th, 2012. That day, Siobhan and Adam were hanging out at her apartment when she mentioned that she wanted to go check in on her mother, who she typically took care of. According to Siobhan, this made Adam upset, and when she left the apartment in her car, he decided to leave too, following her in his Dodge Ram truck.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

1192.735

So Adam was sent to prison. During that time, Siobhan allegedly told her cousin, Shamonia, that she was thinking of getting back together with Adam when he was released. Unfortunately, we weren't able to confirm the pair's relationship status at the time of Siobhan's disappearance.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

120.829

Several attempts later and all of a sudden the calls stopped going to voicemail and instead she got an automated message saying that the number had been disconnected and was no longer accepting calls. None of this was making sense. So Shamonia took the next step. She started reaching out to the people in Siobhan's circles.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

1209.528

A number of people in Siobhan's circle remember hearing or seeing her with a man around that time, but for one reason or another, nobody could remember his name. Martin said that he'd often hear Siobhan and a boyfriend arguing in the background of their phone calls. And Latoya said that she knew Siobhan was having a situation with some guy, but she never learned that guy's name.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

1245.253

And that's about when detectives hit a dead end. With no one else willing to speak and barely more than a rancid container of chicken as evidence. It actually took three years until there was another break in the case. And it came across their desks in the form of a domestic assault report in May 2020. An incident with an eerily familiar scenario.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

1269.522

We were able to get our hands on a copy of the incident report through a FOIA request. And the complainant, whose name we are going to withhold, told detectives that she and her boyfriend were hanging out when she told him that she was gonna head home. Shortly thereafter, he started verbally assaulting her and threatening her life.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

1289.711

After some back and forth, the complainant was able to drive away, but her boyfriend followed her in a truck. And after catching up with her, he began repeatedly hitting her car until it crashed into a residence. Now, this entire altercation sounded a lot like the crash that sent Siobhan's ex-boyfriend to prison in 2012.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

1310.726

And when police asked the complainant about the credibility of the threats that her boyfriend made, she said she believed them, quote, due to him killing her friend, Shea V. Now, Shea V was another of Siobhan's nicknames. So detectives were putting the pieces together in no time.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

1329.658

And sure enough, when they dug deeper, they confirmed that, in fact, the complainant's boyfriend was Siobhan's ex-boyfriend, Adam. So it seemed at this point that all fingers were pointing toward Adam. But because detectives are still actively investigating Siobhan's case, that is all they would tell us for now. At the time of this recording, Siobhan still has not been found.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

1355.025

Detective Lopez seems to think that there are people out there who might have answers, but they might be reluctant to talk because they're maybe wrapped up in the drug world. This might be a good time to remind people that through Crimestoppers, you can submit tips completely anonymously.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

1371.216

I used to do a lot of volunteering for my local branch, and when a tip comes in, they actually remove any and all identifying information from the tip before passing it on to police. But with that in mind, remember to be as detailed as possible if you use the service.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

1386.932

The hope is that in due time, detectives can bring justice for Siobhan and all those who continue to think about her, like her cousin Latoya, who still shares her pictures on Facebook and hashtags her name every year. She just wants to make sure that Siobhan is not forgotten.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

141.022

And as it turned out, nobody, including Siobhan's maintenance man, had seen her since Thanksgiving. So at this point, Shamonia started to get seriously worried. So she put out a post on Facebook to see if anyone had any information. But no one seemed to know a thing. So it was time to kick things up a notch. That same day, Shamonia drove over to Siobhan's apartment in Flint, Michigan.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

1432.802

If you know anything about the disappearance of LaQuandra Siobhan Slater in Flint, Michigan in December of 2016, we urge you to call Flint Township Police Detective Lacey Lopez directly at 810-600-3266. Or, again, you can leave an anonymous tip with Crime Stoppers of Flint and Genesee County by calling 1-800-422-5245. The Deck is an Audiochuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

1473.212

To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? Hello?

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

165.738

She didn't appear to be home, and her black Chevy wasn't anywhere in the building's parking lot. But Shimonya did run into her maintenance man, and he said that he usually saw Siobhan leave her house every morning at around 10 a.m., but he hadn't seen or heard from her in several days. And she was now late on her rent payment.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

185.429

Here is Flint Township Police Department Detective Lacey Lopez, who was put on this case around 2020.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

198.993

Now, her maintenance man said that he'd called the emergency contact on Siobhan's lease multiple times and left multiple messages. But no one ever answered or called him back. We tried to look into who this emergency contact was, but the detectives never got that information.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

216.618

So with Shamonia there now and all signs pointing to something being wrong, the maintenance man agreed to let her do a welfare check.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

241.516

But there was one sign that something wasn't quite right. Siobhan's pets. She had two snakes, which she kept in a glass enclosure, and they appeared to have not been fed for several days by that point.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

264.978

All of this was enough for Shemonya to know that something was definitely wrong. So that evening, at around 6.30 p.m., she went down to the police station to file a missing persons report. Police immediately did a search of local hospitals and jails, but they didn't find Siobhan in any of them. They did, however, find her Chevy in Impound.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

288.496

When they ran the plates on her car, they realized that it had been towed just days earlier after it was found abandoned in the parking lot of an apartment complex in Flint, six miles from Siobhan's home. Now, unfortunately, detectives couldn't find any link between Siobhan and anyone in that complex. So the car being there just added to the mystery of her disappearance.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

29.878

I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck. It was around December 8th, 2016, when Shamonia Wooten went to message her cousin, Siobhan, on Facebook. Siobhan hadn't posted anything for a while, not since, like, Thanksgiving two weeks prior. So, Shimonya wanted to see if everything was okay. So, she first fired off a message, waited to hear back.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

311.795

LaToya Brown, another one of Siobhan's cousins, said that she would never have just abandoned her Chevy like that. And here's LaToya recalling this.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

332.679

That same night, Flint detectives went to search Siobhan's apartment themselves. They hoped that they could find something that Shimonia and the maintenance man hadn't. Something that could help them figure out where in the world Siobhan disappeared to. Here is a voice actor reading what the previous detective's notes said about that search.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

392.622

Unfortunately, there wasn't much else of note at Siobhan's apartment, aside from the two reptiles. But detectives did photograph everything and later collect various items laying around for possible DNA sampling, just in case. Then, as they were heading out, they ran into someone who was trying to head in. One of Siobhan's friends, who we'll call Martin.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

Our card this week is LaQuandra Slater, the four of clubs from Michigan. LaQuandra, or Siobhan as most people called her, was known for being tough and independent. Everyone who knew the 38-year-old said she was outspoken, knew how to take care of herself, and wasn't one to be pushed around. Which made it all the more shocking when in December of 2016, she disappeared without a trace.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

424.048

Martin told detectives that he was one of Siobhan's good friends and that he'd been looking for her for several days and he'd actually come there to check on her just as everyone else had. Like many people, he'd had contact with Siobhan on Thanksgiving. His contact had been in person, though.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

442.171

The two had gotten dinner together at the Golden Corral, but he'd also had additional contact with her after that, over the phone on December 2nd, which was more recently than anyone else police had spoken to so far.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

467.478

Unfortunately, Siobhan's mom had passed away in the year before she went missing. And from what Detective Lopez heard, she was having a really hard time with it.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

485.407

Martin told detectives that he started getting really worried about Siobhan by December 5th, and he'd been driving around every day since looking for her.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

516.64

This seemed like a pretty good lead to detectives. But without a name, it was going to be difficult to track this man down. It was the next day when LaToya Brown, the cousin we heard from earlier, and another cousin went down to the station to file their own missing person report for Siobhan. They didn't know that Shimonya had already been there the day before.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

536.459

But still, detectives took the opportunity to learn more from these cousins about who Siobhan was. And LaToya told detectives that the last time she saw Siobhan in person was on Halloween. Here is our reporter Madison speaking with her about this last encounter.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

582.455

So detectives still had no name to run with. But LaToya did provide some interesting background on Siobhan that was helpful to them. For one, she assured them that Siobhan was not the kind of person to just lose contact with her friends and family. And two, she implied that Siobhan had built a reputation for herself.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

636.762

Detectives found out that while Siobhan worked in home health care, she had a second source of income as a large scale cocaine dealer. And she had a second apartment that she dealt out of. So detectives paid a visit to this second apartment on December 19th.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

654.048

They didn't actually have a warrant at that time, so going in was kind of out of the question, but they figured they'd just go poke around, see if anyone was in the area, see if they could find out anything else about her. Here is more from the previous detectives' notes at the time.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

697.645

It was at that mailbox bank on the second floor where things started to get really strange. Detectives found a note taped to the front of Siobhan's mailbox door and handwritten on it was one word, deceased. Now, detectives had zero evidence at that point that Siobhan was deceased.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

718.638

So there was no reason anyone would have posted such a sign on her mailbox unless they knew something detectives didn't. So the next day, detectives got a warrant to search inside Siobhan's second apartment, thinking, maybe from the handwritten note, that this was likely a crime scene.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

736.003

But when they got inside, they found it was almost completely empty, except for a couple of folding chairs and some bottled water. They sprayed the place with luminol, but even that didn't turn up anything interesting or useful. Detectives also sent the deceased note to the state crime lab for testing.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

753.48

But because this is an ongoing investigation, they wouldn't tell us anything more about what the note looked like or what tests were conducted. So the same day they searched her second apartment, detectives also executed a search warrant for Siobhan's car. Inside, they found some spare shopping bags, clothes, and a purse full of toiletries, but nothing really out of the ordinary.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

775.961

There was no blood or fingerprints legible enough to put into APHIS. The only thing that stood out to detectives was a styrofoam container of raw chicken breast from a local liquor store that had gone rancid. And actually, it ended up being more helpful than you might think because it had an expiration date on it, December 5th. Here's our reporter Madison and Detective Lopez again.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

812.987

The next morning, detectives went to the liquor store where the chicken had been bought to see if they could find any video of Siobhan or anyone else making the purchase. When they got there, they were surprised to see a missing person poster for Siobhan posted at the counter.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

829.062

As it turns out, the owner knew her because she was a regular customer and he'd been concerned because he hadn't seen her around recently. When asked about the chicken, the owner said that he didn't remember Siobhan buying it specifically. She was in and out of the store a lot and he didn't always make note of her.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

84.298

But it was five minutes, ten minutes, an hour later, still no response. And that was very unlike Siobhan not to reply. But what was even stranger was after Shimonya sent a bunch more messages, it appeared as though Siobhan... had blocked her.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

845.436

But he said he last remembered seeing her maybe the end of November or beginning of December. Basically says like the latest we would put that out for sale is December 1st.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

867.918

That told detectives that Siobhan was still alive and in the area in early December. Also, the fact that the chicken was still in the car made it seem like Siobhan's drive home from the liquor store might have been interrupted before she got a chance to take the chicken inside. But without video evidence of Siobhan making the purchase, the chicken didn't provide any hard point on the timeline.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

902.628

Detectives did look into Siobhan's phone records, but it wasn't as simple as they might have thought. Siobhan was known to have multiple phones at the same time, and they ended up getting search warrants for two of the numbers. One search came back with no records, meaning that Siobhan either wasn't using that phone at all or it had been disconnected.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

920.712

And then the second search came back with normal activity, but detectives didn't want to release any information about what that normal activity might have showed at this time. With no one new coming forward and all evidence-based leads exhausted, Siobhan's case went quiet for about a month. And then in January, detectives connected with Siobhan's credit union to search her bank accounts.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

945.028

They found that she had automatic deposits of $733 on the first of every month.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

962.728

That told detectives that by December 1st, something must have already happened to Siobhan that made her unable to withdraw her money as she usually did. Now, I should note that around this time, several other women went missing in downtown Flint, many along Fenton Road, which is about a 10-minute drive from where Siobhan's car was found abandoned.

The Deck

LaQuandra “Shavonne” Slater (4 of Clubs, Michigan)

985.003

Many of these women were suspected sex workers, and unfortunately, most of them have never been found, nor has anyone ever claimed responsibility for their disappearances. So it was certainly possible that the unknown individual or individuals responsible for the other women's disappearances could have been responsible for Siobhan's as well.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

100.171

Kyle had just gotten his holiday bonus from his job as a laborer building docks at the Essex Island Marina. It was about $600 added to his paycheck, and he usually handed his checks right over to Kate to pay the bills. While at the party, Kyle's bosses usually also handed out some extra cash for the holidays.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1002.355

Kyle's mom, Darlene, told our reporter that Kyle had been in the process of getting his pistol permit with his dad. Now, she insisted that Kyle was doing everything by the book, and he had a specific reason that he wanted a gun, though not one that you would probably ever guess.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1056.94

Darlene said that Kyle's dream was to spend more time on the water. And she and her husband had just bought a boat for Kyle that he was making payments on.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1087.076

Darlene said Kyle had gone to a local gun shop about a week before his murder and had called her afterwards to get her advice about which pistol to buy. He specifically said that he wouldn't be able to get it until he submitted his permit application and got it approved, which they were expecting to happen shortly after the holiday.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1115.885

Detective Carroll said police in Waterford never received a pistol permit application from Kyle. But that doesn't mean that he wasn't gathering the paperwork he needed to submit that application. Kyle's brother Jeremy said Kyle hadn't mentioned anything to him about planning to meet up with anyone to buy a gun.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1132.49

And he really doesn't think Kyle would be spending money on something like that right before the holidays, even if he had just gotten his bonus. He said that Kyle had spent a ton on Christmas presents already that year, and the brothers were planning to go shopping for their wives the very next day. Kyle also didn't have much cash on him.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1151.543

He had that 40 bucks for food and investigators found $23 in the wallet in his back pocket. I mean, his wife, Kate, said that he never really had much cash on him.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1161.911

And even if he'd gotten a cash bonus that day, Kyle's mom said that as far as she knows from having a husband and two sons who have done a lot of manual labor at marinas and on the water like Kyle did, he probably would have gotten like 50 bucks or so. Detectives still weren't completely convinced that Kyle hadn't planned to meet someone for something out in that parking lot.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

118.965

And I don't know exactly how much more Kyle got in cash, but on this particular night, he held on to at least $40 to pay for takeout from their regular spot, the Lucky Inn. Now, this should have been a quick trip. The restaurant was only about 10 minutes away. So as time started to tick by, Kate started to wonder what was taking him so long.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1185.127

And since sifting through so many pages of Kyle's phone records hadn't gotten them any closer to a lead, they tried another avenue for information.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1207.475

So they had to do things the old-fashioned way. Hit the streets, talk to anyone who knew Kyle, anyone who might have known why he was in that parking lot that night. And they learned a little more about that night after talking to a friend named Travis. Travis said that Kyle had actually stopped by his place after leaving the bar, but before going home.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1230.81

And he tried to get Travis to go out with him, but Travis said no. Now, this was interesting, but it didn't give police a new lead to follow because Kyle wasn't trying to get Travis to go somewhere specific. And Kyle clearly decided to just go home himself to be with his family. I mean, why else would he have offered to go get dinner?

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1251.752

And in case you're wondering, yes, detectives checked Travis's alibi for the night and it was rock solid. So there just wasn't much for investigators to work with.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1263.143

Complicating matters was that when Kyle was killed, law enforcement was already overwhelmed by another tragedy that had pulled the focus of the nation and put a spotlight on Connecticut and its investigators, the Sandy Hook mass shooting. Just a week before Kyle's murder, 20 children and six educators had been killed in an elementary school just an hour and a half away from where Kyle was shot.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1287.741

And that investigation was massive, pulling resources from across the state. Kyle's family still worries that all those factors could have played a role in the direction Kyle's case went in, because eventually his case was turned over to the state police cold case unit.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1304.608

In hopes of getting more leads, there was a reward put out for information on Kyle's case, and it was plastered on posters that his family put up around town. But even still, nothing happened. That is, until police put Kyle's case on a deck of playing cards in 2014 and passed those decks out to Connecticut prisons.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1346.905

But here's the twist. When Mike claimed to take credit for Kyle's murder, one of his buddies, who was also incarcerated at the time, got mad.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1375.312

Just to be clear, Mike and Ron are not these guys' real names. Police insisted on using pseudonyms to protect their investigation. Now, they said Ron was known to act as Mike's muscle, for lack of a better term.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

139.999

Now, she pushed aside her concern at first, telling herself maybe the restaurant was just really busy on a Friday night before the holidays. But then her phone buzzed with a text from her sister sharing news that was spreading fast through the small town. Someone had been shot at the local bowling alley.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1411.567

And it wasn't long before someone else came forward to report that Mike had confessed to the crime.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1437.17

Apparently, this family member had come into possession of a phone that used to belong to Mike. And on that phone were photos of Mike holding various guns. And he decided to go to a cop that he knew and trusted to show him the photos and talk about Kyle's case.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1454.246

Detective Carroll said that as promising as these tips were at first, the people they were getting these accounts from just weren't credible. The informant's supposed account of the shooting ultimately didn't add up when investigators dug in.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1468.075

He told police that there were other witnesses to Mike's confession, but according to parole and probation records, the people he said were there when Mike confessed couldn't have been. But police did still believe that there could be a kernel of truth in there. So they didn't want to let up just yet. Mike was incarcerated when that tip from the cold case deck came in.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1490.791

Now, he was released from prison sometime in 2014 or 2015, but he wouldn't be out for long. Because while there just wasn't enough solid evidence for detectives to charge Mike with Kyle's murder, there were other crimes, namely drug dealing, that they could maybe bring him in for.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1551.243

And detectives' attempt to interview Ron failed to elicit any information at all.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1566.816

So detectives kept looking for more evidence to connect these guys to the scene. First, they turned back to cell phone records. A court had denied their first request for a cell tower dump, but a second request was approved. The data from that tower dump showed that Mike and Ron were in the area of the shooting at the time it happened.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

158.14

Now, Kyle never really went to the bowling alley or the bar connected to it, but Kate knew that he would have driven right past it on his way to pick up the food. And she instantly just felt sick to her stomach. So right away, she started trying to call Kyle, but his phone just rang and rang and rang until it went to voicemail.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1588.19

But unfortunately, cell tower data doesn't provide an exact location. It just identifies the tower particular phones are pulling their data from at any given point. And it turned out that Mike and Ron both lived near the same cell tower that serviced the bowling alley. So both men could have just been at home. The interesting thing that they did get from the records, though, was activity.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1612.308

Along with location, the records also showed the numbers of phone calls that both Mike and Ron made immediately after Kyle was shot. And there was a flurry of them, including a few calls that seemed really suspicious.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1663.7

The combination of tips about Mike and Ron and their cell phone activity certainly made detectives feel that they were on the path to arresting the men for Kyle's murder. But they still needed more evidence to clinch the charges. The weapon, a witness, anything. And in 2018, it seemed like they got exactly what they needed.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1684.699

Someone claiming to be an eyewitness to the murder who was willing to talk to them. The tip that came in was from a woman named Amanda, who said that she knew Ron and Mike.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1738.927

Now, Amanda is not this witness's real name, and her account wasn't the thing that was going to seal the deal either.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1777.383

They kept running into similar credibility issues as they followed new leads. At one point, detectives had gotten a family member of Mike's to agree to record a conversation with Mike. But apparently, that didn't pan out because Mike didn't trust that relative anymore. Maybe he found out that he'd gone to the cops previously.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

179.608

And phones were ringing over at the Waterford's 911 dispatch center around that time, too. It was about 8.20 p.m. when 911 dispatchers got back-to-back calls from people at the bowling alley saying a man was lying on the ground in the parking lot, bleeding from his chest. Here's Waterford detective Ray Carroll.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1798.072

Now, another woman, we'll call Julie, also contacted investigators about Mike.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1822.011

Detective Carroll said it's hard to tell whether some of these stories have been inaccurate due to people being dishonest or just because they waited so long to give their tips to police. The flip side of that, though, is the $25,000 reward that's up for grabs could also be motivating people to just make things up.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1864.781

In 2021 and 2022, police tried to see if they could link Mike and Ron to the crime scene using DNA. Back in the early days of the investigation, when they were exploring all possibilities, they had Kyle's clothes tested for possible touch DNA. And they did find some unknown DNA mixtures on his clothing, including near the chest area of his sweatshirt.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1887.048

So they got search warrants for Mike and Ron's DNA and compared it to the unidentified DNA mixtures found on Kyle's clothing. But there was no match. Now, detectives say that that doesn't rule them out as suspects since the shooter may have never even touched Kyle. But it doesn't help their case against Mike and Ron either.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1907.065

And while investigators feel pretty confident that Mike and Ron are their guys, they have other questions that they're still hoping to answer.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1968.45

It's worth noting that while much of the investigation has revolved around Mike and Ron, police did their due diligence and considered members of Kyle's own family at the start. And detectives told us that they don't consider any of them a suspect in his death. They found no sign of a life insurance policy in Kyle's name, so there was really no financial motivation for him to be killed.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1990.534

And Kate and Jeremy allowed police to look through their phones. Kyle's mom and brother say that he and Kate had dealt with relationship struggles in the past but had worked on their relationship and were in a good place as a couple. Darlene says that she remains as close to Kate as if she were her own daughter.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

2008.932

And both she and Jeremy believe that Kate and Kyle's marriage would have lasted for the long haul if they'd been given a chance. And detectives are still trying to figure out why they didn't get that chance. But to figure out the motive in Kyle's murder, they need people who knew Kyle or know Mike and Ron to come forward.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

2061.989

Detectives think it is possible that someone who knew and loved Kyle hasn't shared everything they know.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

2113.459

Detective Carroll also spoke directly to anyone who might be afraid that they could get in trouble for coming forward with information.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

214.603

When first responders arrived at the scene a few minutes after those calls came in, the injured man was barely conscious.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

2140.936

Kyle's wife, Kate, wrote in an email to our reporter that watching their children, Samantha, Maya and Jesse, grow up without Kyle there to celebrate and support their milestones has been a heartbreaking experience. I mean, Kyle missed seeing Samantha graduate high school. Maya got her first job. Jesse learned how to ride a dirt bike.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

2159.35

I mean, they were just eight, six and two when their father was taken from them. And Kate said that Kyle was her best friend and navigating her own grief while helping three young children understand that their dad wasn't coming home when she herself didn't understand what happened was a devastating task.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

2178.285

At Kyle's funeral, Kate said that she waited until everyone else had left the room and told her husband, I've got this. I will need your help along the way, but I've got this. And over the years, that's what she and her kids have said to each other when their grief feels unbearable, when times get hard. They look at each other and say, I've got this.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

2202.593

Kate told us that she heard rumors over the years about suspects in the case. And based on what she's pieced together, she doesn't believe the suspects are people that she or Kyle knew or even ever met. She believes, like Darlene and Jeremy do, that Kyle encountered his killer in some sort of random run-in. She said healing is impossible without answers about what happened to Kyle.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

2228.064

Here is our reporter reading part of Kate's statement to us.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

2250.954

Kyle's parents, Darlene and Rick, moved to Florida a few years after the murder because being in Waterford carried too many reminders of what happened to Kyle. But they carry his memory with them in a visible way. Before Kyle died, she and Rick got matching tattoos to memorialize their shared love for Chevy cars and trucks.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

2270.202

And since Kyle's death, Darlene has gotten a full tattoo sleeve with images that represent her love for him. A rendering of his beloved boat, a sunset over the water, a fishing lure, and a broken heart. Darlene thinks about her son every day and regularly checks in with detectives to find out whether Mike and Ron are in or out of prison. Thank you.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

2350.54

Thank you. Thank you.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

236.394

Investigators located the man's wallet and ran his tags to identify him. It was, indeed, Kyle, though Kate wouldn't know that yet. While she waited anxiously at home, hoping he would just pull into the driveway any minute, paramedics loaded Kyle onto an ambulance and rushed him to the hospital, just as investigators would continue to process the scene, starting with Kyle's car.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

24.048

Instead of the Chinese restaurant, Kyle was found in the parking lot of a local bowling alley, shot by a mystery assailant with an even more mysterious motive. And detectives are hoping that you can help them crack this case. I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck. It was the Friday night before Christmas in 2012, and 34-year-old Kyle Seidel was a little late getting home from work.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

279.397

Now, they didn't find anything of note in the car except for the $40 in cash that Kyle had taken with him to pay for the dinner that he never picked up. Outside of the car, investigators didn't notice any damage like bullet holes or shattered glass. The only thing left behind was a small open pocket knife on the ground near the car, one that they would come to learn Kyle carried with him often.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

303.638

And all of this led police to believe that Kyle was actually outside of his vehicle when he'd been shot. And he must have known that he was in danger.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

329.437

And aside from the knife, nothing else was found, not even shell casings. But there could have been multiple reasons for that. I mean, the wind was roaring that night, dropping the temperature into the low 30s, and police said a shell casing literally could have just been blown away. Or maybe the shooter picked up the casings before fleeing.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

347.393

Or potentially they used a revolver, which doesn't expel its casings at all. All in all, investigators didn't have much to work with.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

375.233

Police talked to more than a dozen people at the scene, interviewed local business owners, and took down the license plates of every car parked in the parking lot. But none of it led to useful information. Police didn't really report any accounts of anyone seeing Kyle pull into the lot or hearing any arguing. There were no witness accounts of any vehicles speeding away from the scene.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

397.568

And by the way, they weren't even sure that their killer was in a car. I mean, it's just as likely at this point that they could have been on foot. And any hope that Kyle himself might be able to identify his assailant was dashed that same night when he succumbed to his injuries. He was pronounced dead at 8.45 p.m.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

Our card this week is Kyle Seidel, the Five of Diamonds from Connecticut. Kyle Zeidel should have only been gone for about 20 minutes when he went to pick up Chinese takeout for his wife and their kids just a few days before Christmas in 2012. But something happened that night that changed the course of his fate.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

418.001

About this same time, Kate was at home trying to calm herself down so she could focus on finding Kyle. She took their son, Jesse, upstairs and put him to sleep in his crib. And then she went into her and Kyle's bedroom and dialed his number one last time. She listened to the phone ring and ring again. And just then, she saw headlights outside of her bedroom window.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

441.114

She looked out to see a truck pulling into her driveway. And this ominous feeling just washed over her. Kate recognized the truck pulling into her drive. It was her sister, Christy's. When Christy, Christy's husband, and their friend piled out of the truck, Kate just knew. This wasn't just a bad feeling she was having. This was bad.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

473.274

Though no one had been notified by police, word spreads fast in a small town where everyone knows one another. Christy had a friend who worked at the local emergency room and that friend told her that Kyle had been shot. So Christy stayed behind with the kids while Kate jumped into the truck with Christy's husband and his friend and headed straight to the ER.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

493.102

But by the time she got there, Kyle was already gone. And Kate was left with a million questions. Like, why was he in that parking lot to begin with? I mean, that's a question police were asking her too. But she had no answers. She told them about the holiday party that he'd gone to, the plan to pick up Chinese for dinner. And she knew that he'd been drinking at the party earlier that day.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

517.993

And Kyle's brother, Jeremy, confirmed that his brother had sounded like he'd been drinking when he talked to him on the phone about an hour before he'd been shot. But no one could think of any reason why he would have stopped at the bowling alley.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

549.301

He still bought weed from a local guy, but Kate said that she didn't know his name and she really didn't think Kyle had been planning to meet up with him or anyone on his way to grab food. Kate also told us that Kyle had weed at home, so he wouldn't have been out buying anymore. And when they talked to his mom, Darlene, she added this.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

597.043

As Kyle's family struggled to make sense of how he ended up in that bowling alley parking lot, they arrived at one possible theory—

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

623.388

Detectives took this theory seriously. I mean, they were already in the process of scouring the area for security footage to see if the shooting or the moments leading up to it were captured on camera. But they didn't have any luck. Most of the local businesses had cameras that either weren't working or weren't pointing in the right direction.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

642.616

There was one camera from a nearby ATM that had a motion activated camera. Now, it didn't show Kyle pulling into the bowling alley, but at one point it did show Kyle's car in the parking lot, which could have been helpful for investigators, except. Whenever the camera was motion-activated by a car pulling up to the ATM, the car getting cash would block the view of the rest of the scene.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

666.591

So investigators couldn't see much, and they weren't able to gather any evidence from that footage. Now, there was a glimmer of hope when detectives reviewing surveillance footage from a gas station spotted a car registered to someone with a violent criminal history driving by the bowling alley that same night.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

684.115

But that person had a solid alibi for the time of Kyle's killing and was cleared of any involvement in his death. Though this road rage theory seemed to be prominent among family, it never made sense to his mom, Darlene, who told our reporter, Taylor, that Kyle wasn't prone to road rage. In fact, he was really scared of other people being aggressive on the road.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

733.217

If another driver had gotten mad at him for something on the road, Darlene thought that Kyle probably would have pulled off the road to avoid them, maybe into a parking lot. But in her mind, it was more likely that he stopped to help someone.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

801.833

Detectives considered the theory that he stopped to help someone too. But ultimately, they dismissed it because it was unlikely that he could have even spotted someone in distress.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

828.998

That made them wonder. If it wasn't road rage and he hadn't seen someone in distress, maybe the stop was pre-planned.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

83.322

He'd been to his company holiday party and then stopped off at a dive bar with a friend. But the minute he walked through the door of his Waterford, Connecticut home at about 7.30 p.m., he switched into dad mode, greeting his wife Kate and their three young kids and agreeing to go pick up Chinese food for dinner.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

863.103

So they turned to Kyle's phone, hoping if it was a planned meetup, they would find evidence of it being arranged. But sure enough, just like his family suggested, there weren't any messages about anything like that. And talk screens later done at an autopsy would confirm that there were no illegal drugs or even prescription painkillers in his system, just alcohol. Though quite a lot of it.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

888.114

Kyle's BAC at the time of his death was 0.18%, which is more than double the legal limit in Connecticut. But there was one message on his phone that did stand out. One suggesting that maybe he had been trying to buy something else. The medical examiner had recovered a bullet from Kyle's body, a .45 caliber.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

922.765

And that stood out to police because of a text message that Kyle sent to his friend the day before he was murdered.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

943.055

Detectives talked to the friend who Kyle had texted about the gun. And unfortunately, Kyle hadn't said anything more about who or where he was planning to buy it from. Apparently, Kyle told his friend that he had a pistol permit, so his friend just assumed that he would be buying it from a store. But detectives learned that Kyle didn't have a pistol permit.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

964.002

So there was a chance that he was planning to buy a pistol off the books. Now, detectives checked Kyle's incoming and outgoing calls, texts, social media messages, but they didn't find anything to indicate that he'd communicated with anyone about an illegal gun purchase. And there were no calls or texts to any unknown numbers either.

The Deck

Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)

983.507

Detectives also checked phone records for Kate, Jeremy, and one of Kyle's close friends. One thing they were looking for was to see if any of them had exchanged messages with anyone about buying any drugs or a gun. Like maybe someone else had set up a meeting for Kyle, but there was nothing.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

1003.055

Being from a family originally from Naples that still lives there today, Sharon's loved ones, including the three children she left behind, have heard plenty of talk around town over the past few decades about her homicide. Some of them didn't even realize how violent her death had been until they read the write-up on her card, the one featured in the Southwest Florida Crimestoppers playing deck.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

1025.992

One of Sharon's daughters, Sharonda, actually ran into the woman we'd been calling Maria some years ago.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

1108.974

I don't believe it. It's hard for the family to imagine their fierce Sharon being in such a vulnerable spot. Here's her other daughter, Jaquanetta, talking with Sharonda about what they've heard from others about their mom's tough and independent personality. When Sharon was murdered, Sharonda was only a toddler, and Jaquanetta was around seven.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

1163.971

The family feels that the truth has to lie somewhere in the story surrounding that fateful night. The same details circulating around the same people have been repeated so many times. There just has to be something to it. But realistically, they know that it might take forensics to push things forward. And that is something that Lieutenant Young has been working on.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

1185.663

He made a big push to resubmit evidence for testing back in 2021, with the bindings and ligatures made from her dress being the items he thought would be the most promising. But unfortunately, none of it came back with any foreign DNA. And as technology for touch DNA like MVAC improves, hope does remain for giving it another shot, maybe in the future.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

1208.713

There's DNA on file for both Arthur and Robert, so detectives would have something for comparison should anything pop up. Lieutenant Young said that they are the only two persons of interest ever produced during the investigation. So, of course, our reporting team reached out to both of them for this episode. While Robert wouldn't participate in a formal interview, he did text back...

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

1230.916

Among other things, he said that he knows nothing about the case, can't contribute to finding a suspect, and that his conscience is clear. He said he didn't know Sharon and that he's sad for the family. He also said he was only ever briefly in Naples.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

1246.67

And during a short five-minute phone call, Arthur seemed like he was possibly open to speaking on this podcast after mentioning he didn't know how he got caught up in this. But he said he wanted to clear his name. He asked if our reporter could talk to his brother first before he answered any of our questions. But our reporter never heard from anyone in his family.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

1266.485

And when she tried to reach back out to him to see if he still planned on talking, as of this recording, he hasn't responded. So if there is someone out there somewhere who is willing to set the record straight, detectives and Sharon's family are all ears. At least with this podcast, they feel some sense of comfort knowing Sharon's story has been put out there.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

1289.977

She's someone that they will surely never forget. And maybe now she'll be on your mind, too.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

1319.83

If you know anything about the murder of Sharon Jones in Naples, Florida in 1987, we hope you'll come forward for this family. You can remain anonymous by submitting a tip through Southwest Florida Crime Stoppers online or by calling them at 1-800-780-8477.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

1332.794

We're also going to have all of the ways that you can contact the Naples police directly in the show notes and on the blog post for this episode. The Deck is an AudioChuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis. To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

138.22

That was Lieutenant Robert Young. He told our reporter that officers with the Naples PD went out to the scene and found the decomposed body of a woman who had been dumped, hidden away in a dark corner along with trash and debris.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

180.39

With her torn dress used as bindings and ligatures, she was left completely nude. And investigators didn't locate any undergarments at the scene. Due to her state of decomp, they assumed that she'd been left there for at least a few days or so. And it wasn't that shocking that she hadn't been found until now, considering most people would have no reason to venture into that area.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

202.497

So detectives collected everything they could from everywhere they could. high and low. On the ground, they didn't get much, aside from the pieces of cloth from her dress. Everything else just appeared to be random litter that was likely already there before their victim. But they didn't stop looking there.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

245.984

I was honestly pretty impressed that they went as far as to check the roof. I know you can never be too sure upon first glance, but it didn't look like the victim had taken a fall or anything. And since this looked like a strangulation case, I'm not sure what they were expecting to find up there.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

26.181

More than 37 years later, her family's still hearing remnants of these rumors. Rumors they're hoping someone out there can help put to rest once and for all. I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck. It was early in the evening on December 4th, 1987, when a guy named Grady made an unexpected pit stop at a vacant lot in Naples, Florida to take a leak.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

262.878

But find they did, though they think that the shoes were tossed up there for some unknown reason rather than her having actually been up there before her death. With nothing but her dress and shoes, detectives didn't have a clue as to who she was. But the folks in the River Park community were starting to talk and they had a pretty good idea.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

296.101

That was Von Seal, and her sister was 27-year-old Sharon Jones.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

341.587

It was her fingerprints on file that confirmed, at autopsy, the rumors Von Seal was hearing. The autopsy also confirmed what investigators had already assumed. Sharon's cause of death was ligature strangulation, the makeshift ligature being her own dress. There were no signs of sexual assault, and there were also no obvious signs of trauma that could have come from some type of assault or beating.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

364.158

The ME estimated that she had likely been dead around four or five days. And detectives were able to pinpoint November 26th as the last day one of her sisters had contact with her. But they needed to nail down who she'd been spending time with around then.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

4.028

Our card this week is Sharon Jones, the 10 of spades from Florida. The last known people to see Sharon Jones alive around Thanksgiving weekend in 1987 have something in common. They all attended the same party. And when the young woman showed up dead several days later, stories started swirling about what actually went down that night.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

460.404

There were two party attendees who were willing to talk, though. Two women who, to protect their identities, were going to call Maria and Monica. A weird coincidence, if you believe in coincidences. Monica was actually in the car with Grady when he accidentally stumbled upon Sharon's body.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

479.349

Admittedly, these two women were both under the influence that night, so while their memories were a bit hazy, their stories revolving around Robert and Arthur are nearly identical and I think speak to their credibility.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

493.772

They were also both seemingly open about their involvement in other illegal activity, like substance use and sex work, so they truly appeared to be acting in good faith when they spoke with law enforcement during the initial investigation, as well as throughout the following years.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

509.024

Here are voice actors reading from a section of a transcript from one of Maria's interviews with the detective as she recollected the sequence of events involving Sharon in more detail. Please note some parts have been cut and slightly edited for time and clarity.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

623.976

It seems like Maria was eventually able to identify Robert Ruscha as the other man she'd been referring to during that interview. Both Maria and Monica remembered Sharon being hauled out of the apartment and into a vehicle outside. But neither woman remembered her being tied up in any way when she was carried off.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

642.553

So it seems most likely that Sharon was unconscious and wasn't actually deceased when she was taken away. Since we know that she was tied up and that her cause of death was strangulation, the murder likely occurred after the group left the apartment.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

657.844

Through word of mouth, detectives eventually figured out that it was likely one of the partygoers, a guy who went by Sean, who Neesmith and Roche used as their getaway driver.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

685.054

Investigators talked to Sean while he was in jail for drug possession, and he was reluctant. He threw out two names of other men at the party as probably being responsible, one being Robert Ruscha, but he didn't appear to disclose why he thought this. We don't have any details about how he reacted when he was specifically confronted about his car being used in a crime.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

707.611

But Lieutenant Young said that he thinks the car may have been like a shared car that a lot of different people who stayed in that apartment would use. So maybe that could have been his excuse to keep the heat off of him. But either way, detectives did locate the Chevy station wagon to search and process.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

748.283

Outside of Maria and Monica, who were cooperative, and Arthur and Robert, who remained silent, it sounds like the other party guests had varying degrees of participation with law enforcement. Some of them played dumb and denied even being there at all, while others said that they hadn't really been paying attention to what Sharon was up to and denied seeing her past a certain time.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

769.137

But there was one brave soul who came out of the woodwork, supposedly ready to spill it all. A guy named John. He was older than everyone else and was the main tenant on the apartment lease, though it seemed like a lot of other people lived there kind of on and off. And while he didn't seem to be actively partaking in the events of that night, he had been present there.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

824.364

As frustrating as this was, I don't know how much of a difference it would have made for detectives. While different names have been thrown out over the years in regard to exactly who was responsible for killing Sharon Jones, we don't have any witness accounts that put John as the perp. So most likely, he would have just been another witness to back up Maria and Monica's story.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

848.264

And we know that that alone hasn't been enough for an arrest. What they really needed was a confession from someone who actually participated in the crime. And wouldn't you know it, the very next year, in 1988, Robert was also at the hospital when he told detectives he had something he wanted to get off of his chest, too.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

912.305

However, it seemed like Robert Ruscha may have sobered up because the detective wrote that he quickly came to his senses and had nothing to say. But all wasn't lost with this second letdown. Because one of their more obliging partygoers, Monica, had something up her sleeve. A plan to get Arthur Neesmith talking.

The Deck

Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)

982.884

It doesn't seem like Arthur even knew the plan was for Monica to bring up Sharon in an attempt to get him to talk about what went down the night of the party. I think he just assumed that she was helping the narcotics team nail him for selling drugs. But once Arthur caught on to the fact that he was being watched, it was a bust.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1021.158

And Lieutenant Bozeman's search for Tessie has gone well beyond her mom's backyard.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1055.748

The tip seemed credible enough to follow up with a physical search of a property on Manchester Road in Moss Point, where they were told she had been held, tortured, and eventually killed.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1090.831

Police ran down another tip involving an ex-boyfriend of Tessie's who we'll call Robert. He had a pretty notable criminal history that included shooting and killing a guy and killing a police canine when they tried to arrest him. The tips around him were pretty vague, just that he had killed Tessie and buried her on his property.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

110.834

That was Carolyn you just heard. And by the time a little more than a month had passed without hearing from her daughter, Carolyn knew that she had to call the police. And now you'll hear from Lieutenant Shane Bozeman with the Jackson County Sheriff's Department, who was involved in the case from the very beginning.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1110.407

But as you probably guessed, that didn't end up checking out either. But it still goes to show just how many tall tales were running rampant in this case and how many leads police had to run down in search of Tessie, near and far. One of the most recent tips that's come in led Bozeman to search another Moss Point property off Highway 613.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1132.798

This is one that, oddly enough, was owned by a bondsman who'd been trying to track down Tessie, too, since there was an indictment out on her. And of all places, this tip actually came from a jail inmate who had seen Tessie's picture on the Mississippi Coast Crimestoppers deck of cold case cards.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1250.344

At some point, it has to feel like you're chasing your own tail a little. You run down the tip, chase down the tipster, only to find out they don't have any firsthand knowledge. And then you're back to that bad game of telephone.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1281.721

Tessie's husband, John Tamores, is still a viable suspect to this day. But Bozeman said they never had enough probable cause to search his place or even to get records for his phone. But they were able to talk to someone very close to him to try and get more information.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1343.433

John Tamores is currently in prison serving time for residential burglary. We wrote him a letter hoping he might talk to us about Tessie, but as of the recording of this episode, we have yet to hear back. The greatest challenge detectives face is all the talk surrounding this case. Are they all just stories? Or could there be even a tidbit of truth buried among all that buzz?

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1414.878

Tessie's mom, Carolyn, is still raising some of Tessie's children. And from what we've seen, she's doing an incredible job. Our reporters got to spend some time with Tessie's daughter, who is the spitting image of her mom. She is excelling in middle school, on the honor roll, and volunteers to help kids with special needs.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1434.651

Even though she's young, she is already planning out her life, where she wants to go to college, what she wants to do for a career. But it'll likely be a future full of milestones that her mom won't get to witness. Although Tessie was struggling at the time she went missing, she never missed out on a chance to love on her children.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1502.762

Carolyn gave a DNA sample to NamUs, so if Tessie's remains are ever found, detectives will be able to link them to her. If you know anything about her disappearance, around December 27th, 2019, in Jackson County, Mississippi, we urge you to contact the Mississippi Coast Crime Stoppers. You can remain completely anonymous by calling them at 877-DETECTIVE. 787-5898.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1529.17

Or if you don't mind speaking to Lieutenant Bozeman directly, we'll have his office line and his email in the show notes. At the time she went missing, Tessie Tamores was described as having brown hair and blue eyes. She was around 5'6 to 5'7 and weighed about 150 to 165 pounds. The Deck is an Audiochuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

1555.197

To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

174.434

The last time Carolyn saw Tessie wasn't super memorable, but thankfully she could somehow pinpoint the exact date, December 27th, 2019. There hadn't been any drama, no blow-up fight, nothing even out of the ordinary.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

213.336

Carolyn wasn't familiar with the friends, and it sounds like she didn't get a close enough look to be able to describe them either.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

24.044

But here they are, still in the same stagnant spot, still wondering what really happened, and still waiting for Tessie to come home. I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck. It was winter 2020 in Moss Point, Mississippi, and Carolyn Pardon was at her wit's end. Some of her daughter's children had been staying with her kind of on and off, but she usually wasn't their sole caregiver.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

303.377

So there were several things working against the investigation right out of the gate. The delayed reporting, the difficulty determining who she was with and the places she was going around the time she went missing, and the assumption that she might have skipped town to avoid going to prison.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

319.542

It took a few more months for the general consensus to shift from her possibly being on the run to her case likely involving foul play. The biggest red flag was that she hadn't reached out to any of her kids by this point, and there had been no activity on any of her social media.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

337.334

Normally, in a missing persons case, one of the first things police look to is cell phone and bank records to try and pin down a person's last movements. But in Tessie's case, that wasn't even an option.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

4.099

Our card this week is Tessie Tamores, the 10 of diamonds from Mississippi. When 37-year-old Tessie went more than a month without contacting any of her six children, her mom had this sinking feeling that something was wrong. Her loved ones never thought over five years would go by without hearing from her.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

448.281

But there was something, or rather someone, who kept coming up. Tessie's on-again, off-again partner and the father of her children. And Carolyn was familiar with him.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

491.709

Lieutenant Bozeman was familiar with John, too. He'd been out to the couple's place in the Hurley community in the past for domestic calls.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

535.959

Around the time Tessie disappeared, Lieutenant Bozeman said that she seemed to be out there doing her own thing and John was dating someone else. It'd be one thing if tensions had been brewing to the point of a boiling over, but it didn't appear to have been a particularly volatile period in their relationship.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

554.484

At the same time though, John himself admitted that the last time he saw her was December 26th, just one day before she was last seen by anyone. Apparently, he'd just gotten out of jail on December 23rd, and he'd spent both Christmas Eve and Christmas Day with Tessie and her family and their kids. So at least to me, it sounds like that estrangement had maybe been wearing off.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

577.936

But according to our sources, John wasn't out and about helping look for Tessie after she went missing. He did cooperate with police, though, even volunteered to come in and talk, but he definitely didn't seem devastated by her disappearance.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

676.721

Lieutenant Bozeman wouldn't divulge any details about the results of the test or what exact questions were asked to John since this is still an ongoing investigation. But, according to Carolyn, John was dropping not-so-subtle hints to her insinuating that he knew something bad had happened to Tessie.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

721.994

The most straightforward speculation was this. John's relationship with Tessie was tumultuous. He'd been violent before, and maybe in a fit of rage, he finally snapped. Carolyn had witnessed his need for control firsthand. Maybe he was jealous that Tessie seemed to have finally moved on. But that simple explanation was far from the only possibility that was emerging.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

82.05

Their mom, Tessie, would normally swing by every so often to see them. I mean, at the very least, she would call to catch up. But days were turning into weeks without so much as a phone call.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

838.167

There were plenty of other accounts like this. Wild, but not wild enough to simply shrug off. Detectives did their best to verify every story, and they were even able to track down and talk to most of the men associated with that first story. But they all said, no way. They found the idea absolutely ridiculous.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

858.177

But if the people popping up had any connection to John, whether they'd just heard something through the grapevine or had knowledge about what had happened to Tessie, they would likely be too afraid to actually admit it.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

915.745

The other problem with verifying some of the stories that they heard is that by the time they got to police these stories, they had been cycled through a drug-fueled game of telephone.

The Deck

Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)

970.051

That spider web Bozeman referred to right there is what made searching for Tessie nearly impossible. And as if things couldn't get any more twisted, not only were detectives being bombarded with a bunch of rumors about what may have happened to Tessie and who could have been responsible, now they were also getting tons of tips about where they might be able to locate her remains.

The Deck

Javed Akhtar (Jack of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1828.487

He had young children, and he had a younger wife. You know, I don't work in a jurisdiction where we have a lot of homicides, so I don't want to say I take it personally, but it was one of the ones where you come into our community, you shoot people, you kill somebody for the community that we're in charge of protecting.

The Deck

Javed Akhtar (Jack of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1845.11

I'm fiercely loyal to the officers that work with me and beside me, and fiercely loyal to the citizens that we are tasked with protecting. I want to solve this. I want to stay with this. Even when I retire years from now, if

The Deck

Javed Akhtar (Jack of Diamonds, Connecticut)

1858.095

If somebody picks this up and I check it over here, I'll probably always be like, hey, whatever came in that Javid case, I would love nothing more than to be able to find Rafia and or Javid's someday and say we solved this crime.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1045.27

The hubcaps and tires at the quarry actually had a number of bullet holes in them. But detectives determined that was not related to Bob's disappearance. It was simply due to the fact that they had been used as backdrops for target shooters.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1059.876

Investigators looked into all of the different makes and models of cars that the wheels would have fit, and they came up with a list of over a dozen, including Plymouths, AMCs, and Dodges. Investigators hoped to narrow this list based on the sighting of the cream-colored car with stacked headlights, but it didn't really help.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1114.214

The tires were sent to the state lab, but they didn't come back with any fingerprints. So once again, a promising lead left investigators with more questions than answers. The AMC Hornet, on the other hand, came back with eight latent fingerprints, two of which were legible. Now, one was identified as belonging to Carolyn, but the other didn't match any of the Christians or anyone else they knew.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1140.153

And even though it was eventually added to APHIS once that database became a thing, to this day, that print has remained unidentified. But it might have a non-dark and mysterious meaning. You see, there is a chance that this fingerprint belongs to Bob himself. His fingerprints had never been taken because he had no criminal record. And without him there, they had nothing to compare it to.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1165.865

Detective Poynton says that today investigators would have tried to pull his prints from items that belonged to him, but it doesn't seem like that happened at the time. So given that the print has remained unidentified for nearly 50 years, his gut feeling is that it probably belongs to Bob.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1182.495

Around the two-month mark of the investigation, with little to show for their work, the sheriff's office decided to call in help from the Wisconsin DOJ. Detective Poynton said that those agents focused on learning more about who Bob was. His family and friends painted a clear picture.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1314.662

Investigators heard this over and over again. Bob had no enemies, no criminal record, no history of drug use or mental health issues, no gang involvement, nothing even close to a high-risk lifestyle.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1343.16

This made developing a suspect list nearly impossible. At one point, investigators actually aimed their sights at Randy, given that Bob had come to Baraboo to visit him. They interviewed Randy three separate times, once up at his college, but there was never any indication that he was involved in Bob's disappearance in any way.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1362.611

Detectives confirmed that he was at home with his mom and sister the night that Bob disappeared, and he and Bob had a solid friendship. Here's our reporter Nicole speaking with Randy about his and Bob's connection.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1396.738

Detectives actually collected the handwritten letter that Randy had sent to Bob at college over Labor Day weekend proposing the hunting trip. The offer is sandwiched between a list of classes that Randy was taking at the time and an update on his rec softball team. He signs it off, quote, well, I better close so I can finish my homework.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1417.264

The bottom line is Randy had no discernible motive to hurt his childhood friend. And after all, it was the Griffiths who alerted everyone almost immediately that Bob was MIA. Detective Poynton has also ruled Randy out during his reinvestigation of this case.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1435.598

So six months in, without something to point to, someone to point to, investigators came up with the theory that maybe Bob might have simply run away. But no one who knew the 18-year-old was buying that.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

146.087

That was Randy you just heard. With Bob now a full three hours late, Randy's mom called the Christians again. And this time around, Bob's parents weren't so quick to brush it off. Bob's youngest sister Amy was home when that second call came in, and she remembers that night vividly.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1486.055

Detectives specifically suggested that Bob had escaped to somewhere in Canada where he had once expressed interest in going on a fishing trip. But reading back through the files, Detective Poynton isn't quite as convinced as those detectives seem to be. I mean, he's seen runaway cases before and Bob just doesn't fit the description.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1537.619

Even with no proof, detectives back in 77 were satisfied with this theory because they pretty much stopped investigating. And the Christian family had to face the fact that if they wanted answers, they would have to take matters into their own hands. According to Amy, Carolyn consulted psychics in New York and even hired a private investigator at one point.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1558.514

And for years after Bob's disappearance, the Christians continued searching for him in the Baraboo Bluffs. But everything was to no avail. It's like the earth opened up and swallowed him, Carolyn told a reporter for the Wisconsin State Journal.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1574.022

But a few years later, around the early 80s, just when it was starting to feel like answers would never come in this case, one of the special agents from the Wisconsin DOJ had a chilling revelation, and it had everything to do with one of the world's most notorious serial killers, a man who was active in the Midwest in the late 1970s and preyed exclusively on young men.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1619.861

The theory that John Wayne Gacy could have killed Bob didn't come out of nowhere. During the years that he was known to be active in the 70s, Gacy lived in Illinois and owned a construction business where he specialized in renovation and landscaping.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1681.26

And beyond renovation work, there is something else that could have drawn Gacy to the Baraboo area. He used to work as a professional clown named Pogo, performing in full costume and makeup at children's parties, charity events, and even hospitals. And it just so happens that the Baraboo area is pretty much clown headquarters and has been since the 19th century.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1718.475

And Baraboo's circus heritage has only grown since Gacy was there, with the opening of the International Clown Hall of Fame in 1987.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1736.786

Gacy's MO was to find men at bus stations or on the streets of Chicago, lure them to his home by offering them construction work, alcohol, or money, and then sexually assault and murder them. Now, Bob did fit Gacy's preferred type, young males in their late teens.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1754.789

But unlike most of his other victims, Bob wasn't homeless or struggling financially, or at least according to family, a runaway looking for shelter. Now, Gacy buried the majority of his victims in the crawlspace of his house. But he also disposed of a handful of bodies in the nearby Des Plaines River.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1774.651

And Reedsburg, the town in Sauk County that Gacy was reportedly visiting in July, is right along the Baraboo River. But according to Detective Poynton, it was never searched. In fact, no bodies of water have ever been searched for Bob's remains. Gacy was arrested in December of 1978, which is a year after Bob's disappearance, and he was convicted for the murders of 33 young men.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1801.688

In 1980, he was sentenced to death, and in 1994, he was executed by lethal injection. Detective Pointon is still trying to figure out if he was ever explicitly interviewed about Bob.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1841.522

Specifically, Detective Poynton is curious about the fact that of Gacy's 33 confirmed murders, five of the bodies recovered have still never been identified, though DNA profiles suitable for comparison have been obtained from all of them. Boynton is trying to work with Cook County to see if there is a way to match any of those bodies to Bob.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1863.137

And though the 18-year-old's own DNA isn't on file anywhere, Amy and her dad's DNA was entered into CODIS in 2013. Unfortunately, Bob's mom, Carolyn, passed away in 2008 before the family decided to give their DNA.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1902.247

So our reporter, Nicole, reached out to an accredited investigative genetic genealogist who is an expert in unidentified remains cases. Her name is Karen Binder. Basically, just because there's DNA evidence doesn't mean that a CODIS profile exists or that it's been compared to others.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1921.714

Binder explained that especially if a DNA sample is extremely degraded, entry into CODIS might only be accepted for a state-level search. which would mean that bodies found in Illinois might not be compared against missing persons in Wisconsin.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1936.583

In this case, the only way to know for sure if there is a match is to request what is called a direct comparison between unidentified remains and the familial DNA. This way, rather than depending on an automatic match from the database, someone will perform a manual comparison of both profiles.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1954.301

Detective Boynton says that he is well aware that a direct comparison between Christian family DNA and Gacy's unidentified victims is the best course of action in Bob's case. And he said Amy and her brother are on board with the idea. He reached out to Cook County Sheriff's Office about this in February and finally just got a response in April saying that they're open to doing the comparison.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

1977.623

It took us a month, but we were finally able to get in touch with the Gacy guy over in Cook County, Commander Jason Moran. He told our reporter Nicole at the beginning of April he ordered a direct comparison to be done via a lab in Texas. But results won't be speedy.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

2025.993

So it's a waiting game. But answers might be worth the wait. Part of Moran's work on this case has also meant creating an extensive timeline of Gacy's whereabouts during the 70s. So he was able to confirm that Gacy was in Reedsburg in July. However, he also said that there is a plane ticket showing that Gacy purchased a flight to Pittsburgh on September 12th.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

2048.759

That's five days before Bob left for Baraboo. But that ticket was never signed. So while Gacy did buy it, there is no confirmation that he actually boarded the flight, meaning he very well could still have been in Wisconsin on the 16th. As for how and when Gacy could have encountered Bob, well, Randy says that Bob would have pulled over for anyone he thought needed help.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

2075.192

But Detective Poynton says that he doesn't have a strong working theory there. And Bob's sister has mixed feelings about a possible Gacy connection.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

209.659

The last time Amy spoke to Bob, the Christians were sitting down for dinner in Madison. Bob was the oldest of four kids, followed by 15 year old Kathy, 13 year old Mike and 11 year old Amy. The family of six almost always ate dinner together. But on this night, Bob's hunting plans with Randy meant that he wouldn't be joining them.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

2113.31

Amy says Bob's disappearance has been a source of torment for her family. And unfortunately, it's not the only tragedy that they've experienced.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

2143.126

It was the spring of 1983, just six years after Bob went missing, when the dead body of 22-year-old Kathy Christian was found in a Wisconsin bar that had been set on fire.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

2213.288

Kathy had become close to some members of the Ghost Riders, which Detective Poynton described as an outlaw biker gang.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

2235.325

Apparently, the ghostwriters were looking for a way to silence Kathy, but also collect some insurance money from the bar fire. It was their way of getting two birds with one stone. It wasn't until 1985, when a murder trial was held, that the Christians found out Kathy's death wasn't an accident. Amy actually had to testify at the trial, which resulted in the convictions of three ghostwriters.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

2259.27

Obviously, given the circumstances, detectives at the time looked into whether Bob's disappearance and Kathy's murder could have been connected. But according to Detective Poynton, there was nothing to suggest that this was anything more than an absolutely tragic coincidence for the Christian family. In 1977, Kathy hadn't yet become associated with the Ghost Riders.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

2280.907

And though Bob did have a motorcycle, he had no known ties to any gangs. And while it took two years for justice to be served in Kathy's murder, the Christians have been waiting almost 50 years for answers about what happened to Bob.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

2311.241

In 2023, when Detective Poynton was assigned to the case, this is 46 years after Bob went missing, he hoped to finally give the Christian family the closure that they'd been waiting for.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

2340.762

Detective Boynton has tried to make contact with anyone mentioned in the case files, but with so much time having passed, it was more difficult than he anticipated. Both of Bob's parents, the nun, Sister Genevieve, her friend Mary, the former lead detective on the case, and the caller who found the tires in the quarry, they'd all passed away.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

2361.912

Fortunately, Randy was still living in Baraboo, so Detective Boynton paid him a visit.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

2385.424

Part of reviewing Bob's case has meant sifting through a file of hundreds of hits that have come over the years from the NCIC database, which helps law enforcement across the US share and access important crime-related information. Bob's missing persons case with his physical description has been sitting in that database for decades.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

2406.529

And there have been hits all over the country to remains or unidentified persons that matched some part of his description. But each time, the matches have been ruled out for one reason or another, most of the time based on dental records. There was one hit from 1985 out of Ontario, Canada, which, you know, given the early runaway rumors, Detective Poynton obviously looked into.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

2430.556

But the police report from the time said, quote, the info we have to work with is somewhat sketchy, end quote. And that tip was eventually ruled out as well. A hit even came in as recently as 2023 from New York. Nicole actually looked through each of these and honestly, they're kind of all over the place.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

2449.763

Like sometimes the height and weight were just totally off and then somehow a handful of the matches were female remains. Detective Pointon said NCIC should deliver more accurate possible matches, but clearly that's not always the case. He said the coding is very complicated and even he doesn't totally understand it. And honestly, the NCIC hits are the least of his concerns.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

2515.806

Still, in spite of the odds, Detective Poynton is pushing on. He believes that someone out there knows something. And for the sake of the friends and family Bob left behind, he's doing everything he can to find them.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

2550.156

Randy wants those answers, too.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

256.482

Bob had just bought a new motorcycle, but he'd blown the motor out that week, so his mom Carolyn let him borrow her brand new 1977 AMC Hornet for the trip. Wearing a flannel shirt and blue jeans, he threw his overnight bag into the car and pulled away from the house.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

2575.25

Today, Robert Bob Christian would be 66 years old. At the time of his disappearance, he was 5'10 and around 210 pounds. He had brown eyes, shaggy brown hair, and wore eyeglasses. If you know anything about Bob's disappearance or movements around Wisconsin in September of 1977, please call Detective Tyler Pointon directly at 608-355-3205.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

2602.472

You can also call the Sheriff's Office non-emergency line at 800-377-1195. Or if you prefer, you can remain anonymous by calling the Sauk County Crime Stoppers at 1-888-TIPSAUK. That's T-I-P-S-A-U-K. The Deck is an AudioChuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis. To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

273.638

That night, Carolyn actually saw her son once more in town when she was taking the younger Christian siblings to a high school football game. She drove by Bob and waved to him as he was leaving the bank where he'd gone to take out $25 in cash. And that was the last time she would ever see her son. The Christians spent all of Saturday calling everyone they could think of trying to locate Bob.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

298.129

And by Sunday, the Christians and their extended family had split themselves up to drive every possible route between their home and the Griffiths, searching for any sign of Bob. The most likely drive would have been on rural two-lane highways until reaching Sauk City, and then another rural stretch until Baraboo. But they didn't find anything on that route.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

31.584

Yet here we are, almost half a century later, with that burning question and just a string of bizarre clues that lead many to believe an infamous serial killer could be to blame for his disappearance. I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

320.479

So they expanded their search, driving around areas Bob would have been familiar with, like places he'd hunted before. And it was driving in one of those areas on Sunday that Bob's little brother Mike spotted Carolyn's new car out the window of his dad's van. It was parked off Tower Road in Sauk County, 15 minutes away from the Griffiths' house.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

375.424

Their dad, Lewis, told reporters that it was clear something was, quote, deadly wrong. The car was parked a ways off the road next to a radio tower, and it was sitting flat on the ground. And when I say flat, I mean, like, flat, because the car was missing all four of its wheels. And that wasn't all.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

396.11

The key was in the ignition, but the battery had been stolen from the engine compartment, and the front license plate had been taken off and thrown into the woods.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

4.082

Our card this week is Robert L. Christian, the Four of Spades from Wisconsin. In the fall of 1977, Robert, who went by Bob, was just weeks into his freshman year at UW-Madison. He was a math whiz with a knack for computers and a really big heart. And at 18 years old, there was no telling how far he'd go. But no one ever expected to be asking the question, where did he go?

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

423.388

That was Sauk County Detective Tyler Poynton, the lead investigator on Bob's case today. He said the area where the car was found is what the locals call bluff country. It's heavily wooded and pretty rugged. Tower Road wasn't even paved at the time. Bob had actually hunted in that area as a kid, but he and Randy hadn't been planning to go there this time around.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

447.369

Now, when detectives searched the car, they found Carolyn's traveling nurse's kit, Bob's red and gray high school letterman's jacket, and a pair of jeans, socks, undershorts, and a t-shirt, all kind of strewn about. They also found a receipt from a Walgreens, where Bob had apparently stopped to buy cigars on the way to Randy's. But there were no cigars in the car.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

470.545

And Bob's hunting equipment and overnight bag were missing, too. The car itself was sent to the state lab, but unfortunately, everything inside of it was immediately turned over to the family as detectives launched an investigation.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

509.758

The bloodhounds were able to track a scent trail from the car southeast into the woods, but they ended up circling back to the road just a little ways down from the car.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

542.062

The search continued through Wednesday afternoon with no sign of Bob. So investigators moved on to a neighborhood canvas. There weren't really many houses around, and there was barely even any through traffic. But a couple of tips did emerge from the people who lived in the vicinity.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

560.879

The first was from a nearby resident who claimed that he first saw Bob's car parked by the radio tower on Saturday morning at around 6 a.m. And he said there was also a cream-colored car with stacked headlights backed up next to it. And Bob's sister Amy said that she couldn't think of anyone close to the family with a car that matched that description.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

581.846

Now, the second tip that came in was from a nun named Sister Genevieve, who lived just a couple of minutes down the road from where the car was found at a Catholic retreat center. And this sighting wasn't one of just a sitting car. It was something else, something weird that honestly they didn't know what to make of at first. Sister Genevieve reported that around 7 p.m.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

615.734

on Friday night, September 16th, this is the night that Bob disappeared, she had returned home after about a week of travel, and she found that someone had broken into her cottage through a window and left a mess. Nothing valuable had been stolen, but someone had definitely made themselves comfortable there.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

651.367

Sister Genevieve was obviously unnerved by this, and she didn't want to be alone. So she called her friend Mary to come down and stay with her. It was around 8.30 p.m. that Friday night when Mary arrived.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

707.889

And I could kiss Mary on the mouth because she is a woman after my own heart. She had the sense to jot down the license plate and a description of the car as it was leaving. And she still had it to give to police. But this is where things get weird again. The car Mary described was a tan AMC station wagon with a wooden panel, which is just like Carolyn's new car.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

733.631

And when police ran the tag, they confirmed this. When questioned, Mary described the driver to detectives as a younger male with longer brown hair, thick-rimmed glasses, and light facial hair, which actually did match Bob to a T. But when shown a picture of Bob, Mary said that she couldn't be sure if it was the same person. She also wasn't able to tell if there was anyone else in the car or not.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

759.913

If it was Bob in the car, why would he say that he was looking for himself? And was he the one who'd broken into Sister Genevieve's cottage? Or was it just an unfortunate coincidence that he was parked there at that time? I mean, it didn't really seem like he could have been there long enough to sleep in the bed and then rummage through the fridge.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

781.168

But then if it wasn't Bob in the car, then who in the world was it? And why would this mystery man have been driving Carolyn's car looking for Bob? Mary's account stumped the Christian family, too.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

812.793

While Sister Genevieve told police all about the cigarette ashes in the kitchen sink and the cup of tea on the counter and the broken window, they didn't find evidence of any of that when they arrived. Because before they got there, she had tidied the kitchen, washed the dishes, and cleaned up the glass from the window.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

82.921

On the evening of Friday, September 16th, 1977, 20-year-old Randy Griffith was at his mom's house in Baraboo, Wisconsin, waiting for his childhood friend, Bob Christian, to arrive. The pair had planned to spend the weekend together to kick off the start of deer bow hunting season.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

830.282

Which meant, aside from that one smudged print left on the kitchen stove and a 12-inch shoe print on the driveway, which usually corresponds to about a size 14, there wasn't really anything detectives could collect as evidence. And by the way, according to Amy, Bob wore a size 10.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

849.312

A police report at the time stated that Bob was, quote, probably not a suspect in the break-in, though it didn't mention how that was determined. Some online sleuths have wondered if maybe Bob was meeting someone at the cottage to pick up drugs, noting the $25 that he withdrew from the bank. Maybe something went wrong. But the Christian family insisted that Bob was not into drugs.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

873.803

Even Randy said that there was, quote, no way in heck that Bob was using. And Detective Pointon said, quote, there never was, nor has there been any belief he was an illicit drug user. So either Bob had nothing to do with the nun's cottage break-in whatever, and it was a bizarre coincidence for a sleepy neighborhood where there had never been any other reported break-ins, Or, or I don't know what.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

900.556

I feel like I could come up with a hundred alternate scenarios. And even detectives have struggled to nail down a strong theory. The Salt County Sheriff at the time actually told the Baraboo News Republic, quote, it's a real puzzler. And today, Detective Poynton and Randy are still struggling to make sense of it.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

98.851

Bob was going to come over at 6, eat dinner with the Griffiths, stay the night, and then the duo would head out with their bows early the next morning. But 6 o'clock came and went with no sign of Bob.

The Deck

Robert "Bob" Christian (4 of Spades, Wisconsin)

981.445

But while detectives were trying to wrap their heads around the various possible explanations that week, a call came into the sheriff's office from someone at a local quarry.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

1044.332

Dibak said he believed the waitress was reliable, so he had the Imperial Palace look through their surveillance video based on her tip. But there didn't appear to be any footage of Meong anywhere. So, unable to confirm the waitress's story, Dibak had to assume that maybe she was mistaken.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

1065.78

She couldn't say anything else about the man she allegedly saw Mae Young with other than he was white, which left Dee back with another possible person of interest that he had no way to identify. That same month, D-Back also got a call from Mayong's son Vu, the one who had initially reported her missing.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

1085.737

He told D-Back that he had received a call from somebody saying that they saw Mayong at a casino in Lake Charles, Louisiana. And that's over four hours from Biloxi.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

1117.304

And unfortunately, that was the last tip D-Back received in this case. In fact, those two tips were the only ones he ever got. In January of 2010, D-Back entered Vu's DNA into CODIS. And over the years, he's gotten a handful of hits for possible matches to unidentified remains found out of state. But each one was eventually ruled out.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

1186.724

Dibak said that because it's been so long and Myeong hasn't resurfaced anywhere, she hasn't gotten a ticket in another state or popped up on any NCIC lists, he can only assume that there was foul play involved in her disappearance. But other than that, he says he doesn't have enough information to come up with a theory about what really did happen to her.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

120.259

Except this time, she was strangely quiet. Two weeks passed, then three, then four. But her family hadn't seen or heard from her. When they got a call from one of their mom's friends who had also been ghosted, they really began to worry. The woman said that Mayong was supposed to visit her after her Mississippi trip, but she just never showed.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

1210.524

Here's our reporter Nicole speaking with Detective Dibak. What would you say has been the most challenging part of this case?

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

1334.511

Today, Mayong would be 67 years old. At the time of her disappearance, she was 5 feet tall and 140 pounds. She had black hair, brown eyes, and pierced ears. You can find her photo in the show notes. So if you know anything about the 2008 disappearance of Mayong or her movements in Biloxi, from September 27th to October 4th, please call Mississippi Coast Crime Stoppers at 1-877-MISSISSIPPI.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

1362.009

Or you can submit a tip online at p3tips.com. The Deck is an AudioChuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis. To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

143.443

And she hadn't returned any of the woman's repeated phone calls either. So the family decided to take action. On November 5th, Mayong's son Vu decided that he needed to file a missing persons report with authorities in Escambia County, Florida, where they lived. What he told them was that his mom's last known location was in Mississippi. Well, you know how that works, not their jurisdiction.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

167.084

So they called over to Biloxi where they got a hold of D-Back. They explained the scenario to him and put him in touch with Mayong's family.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

216.758

Now, when Mayong boarded the bus back in September, D-Bag told us that she'd been alone. But that's not to say she was planning on being alone the entire trip. Vu said his mom was very friendly and, quote, she'd talk to anybody. Apparently, she'd been making these trips to Biloxi for at least a year at that point. So it was likely she knew people there.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

23.724

on bus rides to Mississippi and Louisiana, where she would hit the casinos for a couple weeks at a time. She was even planning an upcoming trip back home to her home country of Vietnam to visit her family. But on October 4th, 2008, a fateful cab ride would postpone that trip indefinitely, and it would change the course of Mayong's life and so many others. I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

238.148

They just didn't know who those people might be. She'd never talked about anyone in particular. And tracking Mayong's movements, even in 2008, was going to be a challenge because there wasn't really a paper trail for D-Back to follow. Mayong only used cash. Cash to gamble, cash to pay for her bus ticket, cash to pay for her hotel rooms. Vu said his mom often kept large amounts of cash on her.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

264.245

She preferred to carry her money this way and actually didn't even have any credit cards. She didn't even have a bank account.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

279.75

So one of the first things D-Back did was call Mayong's cell, just like her kids had tried. But the same thing happened. No answer. He also called her long-term partner, Wang, whose number he got from her kids. Mayong and Wang lived together in Florida.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

3.979

Our card this week is Myung Hyung, the Ten of Spades from Mississippi. Having recently sold the nail salon that she owned for years in Pensacola, Florida, 51-year-old Myung was enjoying her well-earned retirement. The mother of three spent her newly cleared-up schedule with her long-term partner at home, or...

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

321.365

When questioned, Wang said that he was working offshore, as he often did as a fisherman during Mayong's trip to Biloxi casinos. It was only once he got back home in October that he discovered Mayong was nowhere to be found.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

361.175

Wang told D-Back that Mayong had been talking about taking a trip home to Vietnam to visit family. So D-Back immediately began checking airlines and reaching out to federal agencies that track international travel.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

384.591

So with neither Mae Ong's partner nor her children knowing what happened in Biloxi, Dibak was left to try and piece together her last movements on his own.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

440.396

Employees at the Imperial Palace confirmed that Mayong had checked in to that hotel on September 27th and paid with cash for a three-day stay that she had booked in advance. D-Back was able to find activity on her player's card that first day, the 27th, and then again on September 29th and 30th.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

469.065

When Diebeck called the other casino, the Beau Ravage, he found out that Mayong had also pre-booked a room there from October 1st to the 3rd. But she never showed up to check in. And after the 30th, there was no more activity on her player's card at any casino in the area. Now, of course, it is possible that she was staying at the casino and just playing games without swiping her card.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

497.657

But without any more activity to track, Deepak was stuck. None of the other hotels or casinos in the area had any record of her either staying or playing around this time. The same was true for the local law enforcement agencies, the hospitals, even the coroner's offices. None had any information about Mayong or any unidentified Asian women who matched her description.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

538.464

Now, you might be thinking, because I know I was, that surveillance at casinos is pretty intense, like hard for someone to go missing kind of intense. Casinos usually have not only high definition cameras like covering every inch of the floor, but also on the ground security teams constantly monitoring everyone and everything around them.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

559.505

Problem was, the surveillance cameras from the Biloxi casinos where she would have been playing only stored footage for around a week. And because Mae Young wasn't reported missing until over a month after she was last in contact with anyone, most evidence of her movements in Biloxi had been deleted by the time D-Back got on the case.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

581.468

There was one piece of technology, though, that did still have data even over a month out. And that was Mayung's cell phone.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

624.102

It turned out she was in contact with a handful of people prior to her disappearance. D-Back tried to reach out to all of them. Most, it seemed, were friends that she maybe gambled with, and many of them hadn't answered their calls. I mean, to be exact, Mayong made 15 phone calls between 9.30 p.m. and 3 a.m. on October 3rd and 4th, and none of them were picked up.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

649.075

14 of these calls, including Mayong's last, were to the same man. When D-Back called that number, the man said that he had met Mayong gambling on a previous trip and that the two had sort of become friends.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

673.553

The last call that was answered was placed just before 9.30 p.m. It was to a friend that we'll call Bob. Bob told D-Back that during that conversation, he made plans to meet up with Mayong at the Imperial Palace that night, October 3rd. When Bob got there, he noticed Mayong had brought another woman, someone he didn't recognize.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

731.59

D-Back doesn't know if someone called this supposed cab or if it was already nearby or if it was really even a legitimate cab at all. Because to this day, he hasn't been able to pinpoint the company or the driver of that car. And it is after this 4 a.m. pickup that Mayong essentially goes off the grid. Now, people continue to call her phone, but she never picked up again.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

757.819

Now, because Mayong's phone continued to get calls, though, it did continue to ping cell towers. Ordinarily, this could give investigators a general idea of the area where someone is. But not in this case. The towers that it was hitting on were kind of a red herring.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

794.674

D-Back was never able to locate Mayong's physical phone. But he was interested in learning more about Bob and the other woman that she was last seen with.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

818.377

So D-Back tried to see if the casino employees knew anything about this mystery woman. And that's when things sort of took a turn.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

84.013

In September of 2008, Mayong boarded a bus from Pensacola, Florida to Biloxi, Mississippi for a gambling trip, something that she'd recently gotten into the habit of. Here's Biloxi assistant chief of police, Chris Deback, the investigator on her case today.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

868.089

D-Back tried to identify this woman, but other than searching for a player's card, which he couldn't find, there wasn't much he could do without surveillance or a paper trail. And we don't know how the mystery woman or Bob's nights ended after Mayong allegedly left. According to D-Back, there was nothing to suggest that Bob was involved in Mayong's disappearance.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

891.959

And though all of the new information he provided was helpful, there were still tons of gaps in the timeline. And honestly, even more questions.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

960.711

By the end of November, D-Back hadn't received so much as one tip from the public. It was starting to feel like there was nothing more he could do. But on December 5th, just as he was on the verge of losing hope, D-Back got a call from a waitress at the casino. She told him that just the day before, she had seen Mae Young and she wasn't alone.

The Deck

My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)

995.154

The waitress who said she saw Mae Young on December 4th told D-Back that she recognized her because she had served her at the casino many times before.

The Deck

Sandra Ann Burris (5 of Spades, Louisiana)

1502.534

It doesn't mean we don't have a case. We don't have a case that's ready for prosecution.

The Deck

Sandra Ann Burris (5 of Spades, Louisiana)

729.957

There was only one person who indicated to the examiner that he was not being truthful when asked these specific questions. Were you in any way involved in the disappearance of Cash? That's how everybody knew it. To which he responded, no. The next question was, right now, can you take me to Cash? To which he responded, no.

The Deck

Sandra Ann Burris (5 of Spades, Louisiana)

758.67

And the third question, have you seen Cash since March 20th, 2005, to which the individual stated no. And in all three, the examiner stated he indicated an untruthful response.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1009.776

He had some charges back in 2012 from a fight that he'd gotten into, and he'd been involved in a domestic violence incident with his child's mother in 2013 that resulted in an arrest for third-degree assault, but then nothing after that. It's not clear if he served time for any of those charges. By all accounts, at the time of his death, Day Day was a family man.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1031.672

He was a devoted son and a father of three, a son and two daughters, all under the age of five. And he may have been selling weed on the side, but his ambitions were bigger. His brother, Daryl, was creating a fashion brand, and Day Day was really getting into helping him develop the brand, like designing t-shirts and stuff. Here's his sister again, Keisha.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

106.63

Day-Day was the first to tear himself away from the TV and went outside to wait for his mom by the blue Lexus that they shared as she finished getting ready. But his mom, who will call Cynthia to protect her privacy, got caught up in the show again. And she didn't have her hearing aids in, so if he called out to her or honked the horn, it didn't register.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1069.941

Detectives talked to Daryl, who struggled to think of anyone who would have wanted to hurt Day Day. He told police he could only think of one thing. Daryl said Day Day had gotten into a fight five years before the shooting with a guy who we're going to call Larry.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1095.149

Records show that the fight happened the morning of March 3rd, 2012, when Larry and Day Day encountered each other at a Subway sandwich shop. They'd apparently had some kind of previous beef over money, and on that day, things escalated. According to police records, Larry was the primary aggressor and ended up with a small cut on his wrist.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1116.582

Police responded to the scene and the men were charged with criminal mischief and breach of peace, which are the charges from 2012 that I mentioned earlier. And this fight really didn't seem like anything major. Detective Slezicki called it just like a scuffle.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1131.942

But the disagreement may have continued later that day when apparently shots rang out at the Hockenham apartments where Day Day and his mother were both living at the time. Day Day told officers that he had been walking between his mom's apartment and a friend's when he heard the shots.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1148.806

And the investigators determined that the unidentified shooter seemed to have been aiming at the building that Day Day had been visiting earlier that day. Now, police never found the shooter back then, so who fired, who the target was, and what the motive was were all questions left unanswered.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1167.319

Detective Slezicki said, it's hard to imagine that someone would hold a grudge for five years over a fight in a sandwich shop, but you never know. So while it's not much of a lead to chase down, it was really one of the only two that detectives ever had in this case.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1184.723

And the thing that made it a little more interesting was the fact that police had actually gotten an anonymous tip that pointed to Larry too. The tipster said that Larry may have been the one to shoot Day-Day. Though, in all fairness, the tipster didn't say why. And it's possible it was just someone like Daryl who remembered that fight five years before.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1208.251

There's no information about how Larry felt about that fight, whether he knew anything about Day Day's murder or what kind of car he was driving back in 2017. Because the thing is, police never talked to him as part of their investigation. A fight from five years back just didn't feel like enough of a lead for them to chase down.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1230.034

Our reporters tried to reach Larry, but he didn't return our calls or our messages. About two months after Day Day's shooting, there was another tip that came in investigators did think was worth digging into. In February 2018, a guy in East Hartford who was arrested in a totally unrelated case tried to trade some information to cut a deal.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1253.985

This guy, a confidential informant, tipped Detective Sulzycki off to a man who went by the street name Bleak. The informant said that he was with Bleak in a red BMW and saw a gun that Bleak was selling for $500. But when he tried to take a closer look at the gun, Bleak stopped him.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

127.24

The TV was all she could hear until there was a sudden knocking on her door. When she answered, Cynthia saw her neighbor, Josh, who calmly said something she almost couldn't make sense of. Someone shot Day Day.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1286.16

Detective Slezicki said that it took two months, but eventually in April 2018, he learned Bleak's identity. He was living nearby in Windsor, Connecticut, so he phoned an officer over at Windsor PD who actually knew exactly where Bleak was, the hospital.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1315.564

But Bleak just said he didn't know anything about the gun or Day Day's murder. And without any further evidence, that was the end of that. Over the last seven years, not much else has come in.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1328.947

After Day Day's case was put on a cold case playing card deck sometime between 2019 and 2020, the East Hartford police hung a poster-sized version of the card in their lockup in case anyone who comes in recognizes the case and has information.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1345.251

Most recently, Detective Slizicki got another name from another confidential informant, the name of a possible suspect who this CI said might have killed Dede due to a drug-related dispute. So the detective got an idea. He applied for a geofence warrant. This type of warrant can identify electronic devices like phones that have entered or exited a designated area during a specific time.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1371.283

In this case, police were looking for phones that went into or left the parking lot at the time of Day Day's shooting. They were hoping if this list came back with this suspect's name on it, it might be the proof they need to back up this tip.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1403.121

One phone belonged to a woman who had called 911 that afternoon when she heard screaming and yelling. Another belonged to a friend of Day Day's family who had been visiting earlier that day and had left before the shooting. The third phone belonged to a contractor who'd been working there. And the fourth phone belonged to a child who had just been getting off the bus.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1424.089

None of the numbers belonged to the man named by the tipster.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1443.611

None of the numbers belonged to the driver of that gold car from the traffic stop either. Our reporter asked Detective Slezicki whether any of those four people who did come up on the geofence warrant happened to drive a gold or silver Buick. And he said that the student was too young to drive and the contractor was driving a work van.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1463.824

He doesn't know what kind of car the other two people had in 2017. But they had been eliminated through other means. He said his theory is that the shooter either didn't have a phone on them that day, or if they did, they weren't running any Google apps on their phone at the time of the shooting that would have allowed them to be picked up by the geofence warrant.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1485.591

It's also possible that the shooter didn't show up as entering or exiting the apartment complex around that time because maybe they didn't. Maybe they were already there and stayed there. Cynthia told our reporter that she has racked her brain for theories about who might have killed her son, and she always comes back to one thing.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1508.474

She thinks it's someone who lives in the Hockenham apartment complex. She called it an inside job. Cynthia has been living in those apartments for about 30 years, and she said that when someone from outside their little community comes in and does something bad, people talk.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1526.181

The fact that people have been seemingly so tight-lipped about her son's death makes it seem to her like they're scared of snitching on someone who they know, like a neighbor who would know right where to find them if they did speak up.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1540.68

Whether or not the shooter themselves lives in the complex, Detective Slezicki and the family agree that there must be people living there who at least saw or heard something that they haven't told police yet. And he agrees that they're likely not speaking up because they're probably scared.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1575.805

That fear is very real. Keisha and Cynthia told our reporter Taylor that they're scared too.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

158.666

That was Day Day's mom you just heard. Day Day was lying next to the car, a pool of blood spreading out beneath him as neighbors looked on in horror. Cynthia shouted to one of them to bring a towel to try and stop the bleeding. She could see her son's eyes moving, so she just kept talking to him, letting him know that he wasn't alone and that help was on the way.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1609.161

Cynthia still lives in the apartment she lived in when her son died, which means that every day she lives with the fear that her son's killer could be right next door, right around the corner, someone she sees at the mailbox or passes in the hallway. Nobody would never, ever know my pain.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1651.864

Walk around in a constant state of paranoia because you don't know. Although he doesn't often have updates in the case, Detective Slezicki and Cynthia take walks together pretty regularly. And he's trying to support Day Day's family in other ways, too. He recently met Day Day's son. At 12 years old, he looks just like his dad and is starting to fit into his sneakers that his father collected.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1680.011

Day Day's mom and sister go to Day Day's son's football games, too. Day Day was a basketball guy himself, spending a ton of his childhood and teenage years shooting hoops in the neighborhood. And they know that he would have loved being a sports dad.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1736.823

Day Day's youngest daughter has no memories of her father, but her siblings talk about him all the time. His middle daughter recently turned 10 and asked to honor her dad at her own birthday celebration. She wanted her birthday cake to say, long live daddy. So it did. Cynthia remembers him by keeping photos of Day Day all over her home.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

179.503

Cynthia remained by Day Day's side till help got there, and she even stayed with him as he was rushed to the hospital by ambulance. About the same time, Detective Paul Sulzycki, who would become the lead investigator on the case, rushed to the scene with his partner after hearing a radio dispatch about the shooting.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1810.529

We asked Cynthia and Keisha what they would want to say to Day Day's killer if they could speak to them. And what would help them feel like they have a little more closure.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1855.652

Cynthia says whether the killer ever comes forward, she won't stop seeking justice. She tells Dede that every day, speaking to his portrait and to his grave, which she visits weekly when the weather allows. And I'd be like, Daddy, give me a sign, something.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1907.059

Detective Slezicki said any small piece of information in this case could be huge for the investigation. They're especially looking for any information about a potential motive. Anyone who had a problem with Day Day or any vehicles seen leaving the scene of Day Day's murder. The detective said anyone with information can call him directly at 860-291-7544.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

1928.115

Or you can contact the East Hartford Police Department at 860-528-4401. The Deck is an Audiochuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis. To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

22.367

A single gunshot had echoed through the parking lot minutes before, and 26-year-old Deshaun Lawson lay bleeding to death on the cold asphalt. Two separate sightings of a metallic car could hold the key to who killed him, and police hope to track that car down with your help. I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck. Deshawn, also known as Day Day to his family, was close to his mom.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

221.274

Detective Sulzycki said that he and his partner didn't personally stick around to talk to this guy because they had a crime scene to get to.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

235.572

When they arrived at the scene of the shooting, there wasn't much in the way of physical evidence for them to work with. No shell casings or objects left behind by their killer. The only thing that stood out was a blood smear on the side of the car, but that later was determined to be Day-Day's. There were, however, plenty of potential witnesses.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

256.572

Detective Slzycki had noted 25 to 30 people gathered just outside the crime scene perimeter when he first arrived. And the sight of that many people just standing around while a victim's blood was still soaking into the ground surprised him.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

288.582

But every person they talked to said they didn't have anything to offer as far as eyewitness accounts. They didn't see the shooting happen or hear anything significant before or after. At the same time they were hitting brick wall after brick wall, Day-Day's family, his mom and his sister Keisha included, were anxiously waiting for news about his condition.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

310.86

Here is Keisha and Cynthia recalling that.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

375.219

When Detective Sulzycki got the news of Day Day's death and went to the hospital, he found Day Day's family huddled in the hospital chapel, just desperate for answers. Cynthia didn't know who would have done this, but she demanded that investigators talk to Josh, the neighbor who had knocked on her door to deliver the devastating news. She wasn't buying that no one saw or heard anything.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

397.98

She said that Josh in particular was always looking out his window and she was adamant that he must have heard or seen more than he was letting on. When investigators went back to speak with Josh, he told them that he was home with a friend when he heard what he thought was a tire popping. Now, he looked out his window and he saw Day Day on the ground next to the Lexus.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

4.045

Our card this week is Deshawn Day-Day Lawson, the King of Hearts from Connecticut. Three days before Christmas in 2017, a group of kids piled off a school bus in East Hartford, Connecticut. But instead of happily rushing home to start their winter break, they stepped straight into a crime scene.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

427.617

This apartment complex had multiple large parking lots with buildings wrapped around them, kind of in like a U-shape. And Josh's apartment was close to where Day Day lay, so he had a clear line of sight. Detective Sulzycki said that he also interviewed the friend that was with Josh, but as sure as Cynthia was that he had to have seen something, they were both equally adamant that they hadn't.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

452.477

And they insisted that they had nothing to do with it either. And this was the general story from almost everyone, even the multiple people who called 911. They heard a loud pop and only after did they look out their windows to see Day Day hurt, either leaning up against the car or lying on the ground.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

472.967

And most people claimed they didn't look out soon enough to see anyone else there or anyone fleeing the scene. That is, except for two separate women who might have actually seen more. The first woman was the one who alerted police to the gold car that had led to that traffic stop. She described it as a four-door sedan, but she wasn't able to tell police the make, model, or plate number.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

497.259

When patrol officers were able to stop that gold car that they spotted driving away from the apartment complex, they learned that the driver lived in the apartments too, so it wasn't necessarily suspicious that he was driving out of that area.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

526.442

Police were able to verify with one of this guy's coworkers that he was on his way to a shift at work. Detective Slzycki said that the driver had come from the same parking lot where Day Day had been shot, but it was possible that he'd driven out just before the shot rang out and didn't actually hear or see anything.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

543.411

Apparently, the patrol officer who stopped him also searched his car and didn't find any weapons. They checked his hands for gunshot residue, too, and didn't find anything there. So at that point, he was free to go and not considered a person of interest. But whether there was another gold car they should be looking for remained an open question.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

564.204

A second woman who witnessed more provided police with perhaps the most significant tip they'd received thus far. She said that she was cooking in her kitchen minutes before the shooting and she actually noticed Day Day before she heard the shot. She said she looked out a window in her back door and she saw Day Day parking the Lexus.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

586.081

She said he backed the car into a spot and that a few minutes later, a silver four-door car backed into the spot next to the Lexus's driver's side. Now, she described an emblem on the hood of the car that Detective Sulzycki said would match up with a Buick logo. She said the two vehicles were there for probably 10 minutes when she heard a bang.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

609.554

And at first, she figured it was her son making noises upstairs, but then she heard screaming outside. So she looked out the same window and saw Cynthia running to Day Day, who was now lying next to the driver's side door of his car, bleeding from his mouth. And the parking spot next to him was now empty. So this woman ran outside to try and help.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

629.444

She's actually the one who went to get a towel to try and stop the bleeding. And when she returned, she tried to talk to Day Day, but he was just gasping for air.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

650.117

And that bullet struck his lower back. But because there was no shell casing found at the scene, investigators figured that the shooter either used a revolver, which doesn't eject shell casings, or fired from inside a vehicle, meaning that the casing would have been ejected into their car.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

668.783

Now, they'd already searched that gold car and eliminated the driver as a suspect, and investigators were never able to pin down any other vehicle that was coming or going from the scene around that time, silver, gold, or otherwise. It's also not clear if the two women who called 911 actually saw different cars or if they saw the same car but just described different metallic colors.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

691.801

And police don't even know if that gold car they stopped was a Buick. There's no record in the report of the vehicle's make. And Detective Slzycki just said that he remembers it being older and maybe on the bigger side for a sedan. Detectives really needed more information to try and track any potential suspects down. So they returned to the neighborhood.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

726.291

They did that multiple times, and detectives knew people in the Hockenham apartments had Day Day on their mind. Neighbors had even spray-painted his name on one of the buildings in his memory. But all investigators heard again and again was that no one had seen or heard anything that day. Or at least, that's what they were telling police.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

747.065

But what they were telling each other was a different story. Because by this point, the rumor mill was churning.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

767.869

Detective Selzycki said one rumor was that some money had gone missing from Cynthia's workplace, and maybe Day Day's murder was connected to that somehow. Like maybe someone was angry about the missing cash and retaliated, or some sort of dispute had started. But that rumor got squashed almost immediately.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

786.961

Some of the other rumors were drug-related because along with $100 found on his body, investigators had also found rolling papers, which was really no surprise because Day Day was known to smoke marijuana and detectives heard that he was likely selling it too. And that was pretty much confirmed by activity on his phone records, too.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

806.17

It was going around that maybe Day Day was the victim of someone upset that he was selling on their turf. But that tip, which came in from someone incarcerated hoping for a lighter sentence, also went nowhere.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

819.181

So with very little physical evidence from the scene and so little useful information from witnesses, investigators searched for surveillance video, hoping a camera might have captured something. But there weren't any.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

82.516

So close, in fact, that he stopped by her place in the Hockenham Park apartment complex almost every day for one reason or another. And on December 22nd, 2017, his reason was to pick her up so they could go shopping and get some last-minute Christmas gifts for his sister and his kids. But just as they were heading out the door, they got distracted by a particularly dramatic episode of Chicago Fire.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

843.291

Detectives also scoured the area, but all the cameras at fast food chains, gas stations, and private residences were either pointing in the wrong direction or weren't functioning at the time of the shooting. All police had to go off of was the bullet that entered Day Day's body. But they had nothing to compare that bullet to. And it was so damaged that they couldn't even determine its caliber.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

869.296

At the same time, police were navigating a tricky relationship with Day Day's family.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

884.141

Then there was the Lexus, which had been towed from the scene. It belonged to Cynthia, and she initially wouldn't give police permission to search it. So cops ended up having to get a search warrant. Detective Sulzycki said he wondered if maybe there was something in the car that the family didn't want police to find. But Cynthia said that was never the case.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

904.005

She said that another detective, who had apparently rubbed the family the wrong way by having a bit of an attitude, asked her to search the car while they were still at the hospital that day, like right after she got the news that Day Day had died.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

916.65

And Cynthia said that she was just such a wreck that she wasn't really thinking clearly, so she deferred to Day Day's brother, Daryl, who at the time told her not to answer any questions. So she didn't consent to the search.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

928.354

Now, police towed the car from the apartment, and when they did finally get a warrant and conducted the search, they only found run-of-the-mill stuff like candy, CDs, some coupons, and artwork Day Day's kids had made. They also found out that Day Day had a second phone that they didn't initially get their hands on. It took like a month or two after the shooting before they did.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

950.205

But Cynthia said that she wasn't purposefully holding anything back. She knew Day Day had a second phone, but she just didn't know where it was until she moved his bed one day and the phone just fell to the ground. So she said that's when she turned it over to police. Again, she's not trying to hide anything or make the investigation more difficult. That's just how it played out.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

970.762

When police did get to search that phone, they only found evidence that it was maybe a burner phone that he used for selling weed. There was nothing of evidentiary value to the homicide investigation. Detective Slezicki said that despite any bumps police experienced with the family at first, they do have a good relationship now.

The Deck

Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)

989.149

And while everyone is on the same page that drugs could have been a motive for his death and might have exposed Day Day to some riskier people, there's been nothing that's jumped out at police. Day Day seemed like a low-level dealer, not like a big fish, as Detective Slezicki puts it, and certainly not a career criminal.

The Deck

Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

1003.416

The only thing investigators could really do to try and find out more about Jim's possible connections back in Mexico was to talk to all of his known associates there. And while no one could or would say that he had a hitman, some of them accused him of other potentially illegal activities.

The Deck

Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

1054.378

One of Jim's ex-girlfriends also said that he had her bring a significant amount of money back to the U.S. at one point. Now, if these allegations were all true, that would mean it was possible that he may have been hiding funds and keeping things off the books, like maybe money to pay a hitman.

The Deck

Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

1073.231

Speaking with Lieutenant Young today, though, there are things that don't perfectly line up with this being a murder-for-hire plot. One, would an assailant really come to Carol's condo unarmed without their own weapon? I mean, I guess it'd be safe to assume that Carol would have kitchen knives in a home, but I don't know, close to 15 stab wounds? That screams personal to me, not a hit.

The Deck

Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

1098.022

And if the assumption is that the killer could have used that nearby ladder to climb in Carol's already open balcony, well, that's just pure luck. And there's something specific about the scene that feels ultra-personal, more than just the close to 15 stab wounds. Remember that pillow, the one that detectives believe was maybe used to muffle Carol's screams?

The Deck

Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

1122.676

Lieutenant Young mentioned that it may have had a more significant meaning. Here he is reading from a note that Carol had written that investigators held onto as evidence.

The Deck

Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

1162.711

We have no idea where this story about Jim's father's wife being, quote, dealt with came from, nor does Lieutenant Young. He guessed that the whole idea about the pillow over the face had maybe just been a rumor or a threat that got passed down or something.

The Deck

Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

1179.995

And while I think it's significant that Carol seemed to be predicting her own demise at the hands of Jim, I don't know if we can place too much stock in the pillow itself. But who knows? Pillow or no pillow, it seems like everything kept pointing back to Jim.

The Deck

Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

1197.903

And the stories they were getting from his friends and relatives that were giving context to the demise of Jim and Carol's relationship, let's just say that those were pretty telling.

The Deck

Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

1265.768

Jim and Carol's only child, Virginia, was 22 at the time of Carol's murder. She and her husband, Carlos, lived there in Naples with their two kids, and they spent a lot of time with Carol. They'd even lived with her in the condo for a brief stint when they'd first moved there and were getting on their feet. So they had a front row seat to everything going on with the divorce.

The Deck

Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

1286.012

Naturally, investigators needed to talk to them. And when they were asked about what they were up to the night that Carol was killed, Virginia's response had detectives raising their eyebrows.

The Deck

Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

1331.189

Here's Lieutenant Young going over Virginia's statement. It was a long line.

The Deck

Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

1360.353

To detectives, the whole thing just felt off. And while they were able to verify parts of her story through an ATM and grocery store receipt, they couldn't help but wonder if maybe she'd forced those errands in order to create an alibi for the night. Outside of those stops, detectives can't account for her movements the entire evening.

The Deck

Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

1381.244

But she said that after the grocery store, she'd rushed home so that Carlos could make his overnight shift cleaning at a nearby country club. Now, colleagues confirmed that he was there around midnight, as he was scheduled to be.

The Deck

Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

1393.732

He had a half-hour break between 2 and 2.30 a.m., and he would have gotten off at around 6.15 a.m., which, logistically speaking, would have been enough time to get to Carol's house, about 10 minutes away, and move Carol's car. It also wasn't lost on detectives that Carlos fit the vague description of the male driver.

The Deck

Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

1414.787

One of the possible theories detectives had was that maybe Virginia had gone to her mom's house that night while Carlos was at home with the kids, sleeping before his shift. And not through the balcony using the ladder, but either with her own key or maybe her mom had just let her in.

The Deck

Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

1430.658

Virginia could have initiated an attack and she could have killed Carol and then Carlos may have come to the rescue to help her stage the car by the airport the next morning after she told him what happened. With the whole idea being that everyone would just assume that it had to be Jim due to the impending divorce. He'd be the obvious bet. But the big question that we had was, why?

The Deck

Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

1455.354

Why would detectives even have a reason to believe that Virginia or Carlos would want to kill Carol?

The Deck

Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

1485.074

Apparently, though, that's not how it worked. From what Lieutenant Young could tell, although they would have potentially gained a nice condo and some cash, the divorce settlement was not finalized. Carol's premature death meant all tangible property would remain with Jim. But there was another possible theory as to motive.

The Deck

Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

1507.338

Remember, without giving too many otherwise private details away, Lieutenant Young said, and there is documentation that shows this too, that Virginia had disclosed to her family and police that there had been misconduct from her father. So the theory then became perhaps it was possible that Virginia had some sort of resentment towards her mother over that. But this was purely speculation.

The Deck

Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

1533.16

From what we can gather, it seems like Virginia didn't confide in her mom about what had allegedly taken place until just before Carol and Jim's separation. And when she did, it seems like Carol took it seriously. I mean, that's why she ultimately decided to leave Jim. Now, there's no sign that she had been trying to sweep this under the rug either.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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Lieutenant Young showed us a note where Carol was telling another loved one about the situation and expressed her support for her daughter. So there doesn't seem to be any proof that this had caused a rift between them that would have led to the brutal attack. But nonetheless, investigators still worked this angle to make sure that nothing was missed.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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In similar fashion to how the investigation into Jim played out, they wondered if someone else connected to Virginia or Carlos could have been involved. They looked into two male colleagues who would have been working with Carlos at the country club that night who could have helped him.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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One of them went back to Mexico shortly after the murder, so I guess they wanted to check into that, make sure nothing was sketchy about the trip. But it seemed to turn out to be nothing. Honestly, a lot of it was feeling like it might be nothing because according to Carlos, he and Virginia had a good relationship with Carol. He said they didn't fight or argue.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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And since they were young parents, they sometimes relied on Carol for both financial help and childcare back then. Our reporter Madison was able to connect with Carlos virtually back in December.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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And while Carlos told Madison that he remembers his routine from around that time, that he would have been sleeping and then working the overnight shift as usual, he didn't remember anything about Virginia going to the store. Not that it didn't happen, just that it didn't ring a bell. He also couldn't say if shopping late at night like that was commonplace for her or not.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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It sounds like he doesn't even recall that her alibi had been an issue or something that the detectives were skeptical of back then. He said the investigators kept him in the dark about the case. What he does remember vividly is how devastated Virginia was by her mom's murder.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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Madison was able to reach Virginia via text. And while she thanked us for our interest in her mom's case, she didn't want to participate in this podcast. Madison tried calling Jim Clement for this episode too, but as soon as she mentioned Carol, he said, nope, thank you, bye-bye. And he quickly hung up.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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So you can see that while police might have had their suspicions about those closest to Carol, there was nothing concrete they could work with. So the case languished until around 2001. That's when detectives took another look at the case files to see if they could make another push. Now, Jim still wasn't willing to do a sit-down interview, but he did end up picking up the phone.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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And when he was asked if he killed Carol or knew who did, he said no. A detective actually recorded the call and ran it through a computer voice stress analyzer, and the results indicated that he was telling the truth. Though there is this one thing that still rubs Lieutenant Young the wrong way, something detectives learned in the years after Carol's murder.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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Another former girlfriend had an interesting anecdote about how Jim tried to explain away his former wife Carol's death. She said that Jim was very secretive and he told her that his ex-wife was killed in a car crash. Now, by 2003, Virginia and Carlos were divorced, but both living in Texas. So detectives went there to talk to them again and conduct polygraphs.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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During a pre-interview, Virginia told an investigator that among other things, her father, Jim, was mentally and physically abusive. She said she suspected that he was the one who killed Carol. She agreed to the polygraph and the results came back as inconclusive. So they made plans for her to take a second one later. Next, Carlos came in for his pre-interview and polygraph.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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He also said that he suspected his former father-in-law, Jim, was the one who killed Carol because he was, quote, explosive.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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It seems like he quickly reneged that answer, though. English is Carlos' second language, so to be fair, maybe this was miscommunicated.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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Carlos told Madison that while he didn't even know he failed the polygraph, he does recall the overall tone of that meeting in Texas as being accusatory toward him and Virginia. He could tell that investigators had it in their heads that they were involved in some way, even though he'd originally assumed that he was just being asked there because maybe there'd been an update in the case.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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Detectives left Texas believing that both Carlos and Virginia knew more than they were saying, but they couldn't take it any further. Here's Madison again speaking with Carlos.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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Carlos also said he does not believe Virginia could be involved either. Even though they eventually got divorced, he said she was never aggressive or violent. He doesn't think she'd be capable of something like that. And specifically, he doesn't think she had any reason to want to hurt her own mom. Police didn't actually have anything incriminating to hold either of them on.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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So they were forced to leave it alone and head back home to Southwest Florida and back to square one. Starting around 2004 or so, investigators started to pick things back up once again, now with a focus on DNA. It seems like they spent a few years trying to obtain DNA from potential persons of interest in hopes of being able to use it for comparison in the future.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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From what they could tell, this didn't look like a burglary gone wrong. In fact, the only thing missing was Carol's car. So it appeared that the sole purpose of whoever was inside Carol's home was to come in, kill her, and leave. And maybe through the sliding glass door that led out to Carol's second-story balcony as it had been left wide open.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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Whether it was voluntary or through a warrant, they eventually got samples from literally every one of relevance that we've mentioned in this episode. By 2007, lab results yielded enough DNA from Carol's fingernail clippings that they saved as evidence to be able to make a profile good enough for direct comparison.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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Not good enough to be put into CODIS, but it was something that they could work with. The DNA they found was a male profile, which was interesting because evidence does point to a struggle taking place inside the condo, and Carol could have gotten this DNA under her nails by fighting off an attacker. But that's not the only possibility.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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It was such a small amount that it could have just as easily been transferred DNA from someone innocuous. For this reason, Detective Young doesn't believe that anyone brought up in this investigation so far can actually be ruled out for certain.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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But they did compare this to all their possible persons of interest anyways, including but not limited to Jim, Virginia, Carlos, and even that man William, who some of the neighbors brought up during the canvassing. They also ended up getting DNA from an ex-boyfriend of Carol's, a guy named Robert, who she dated off and on for about a year.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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But they'd broken up like six months or so before her death. All in all, none of those people were a match to this DNA. It wouldn't be until 2021 when Lieutenant Young took a crack at the case and started reviewing the evidence for himself. And that's when some more progress would be made. He thought about those two hairs that they'd found on Carol.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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Hairs that they still weren't able to say for sure if they came from Carol or someone else.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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Even though it would be used up, what little DNA they had left from the fingernail clippings, they decided they were worth retesting to see if they could come up with a stronger profile, like a CODIS-level profile. And finally, in December of 2023, Lieutenant Young got some good news. The profile was officially in.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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That profile has been entered into CODIS, but unfortunately, as of this recording, there have been no hits. And also, unfortunately, the type of processing that they do to get a CODIS sample is different than what would be needed to work a DNA sample with investigative genetic genealogy. And since the full sample was used, that second one isn't an option now.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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But plans to get a few more items retested are already in the works. Two things that the killer would have likely touched, the pillow and the murder weapon, and Carol's underwear. Even though there weren't any signs of sexual assault, there was blood on her underwear that caught detectives' attention.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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If the killer injured themselves during a violent attack, there's a chance that they may have left their own blood behind. This revived effort in Carol's case gives her younger sister Linda a renewed sense of hope that all is not lost. That maybe someday, maybe even someday soon, there could be justice for Carol, answers for her family.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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Linda told us about how their devastated mother had to spend the rest of her life before she passed away, living in fear, always looking over her shoulder, worried that whoever had come for Carol might one day come for her. But now, perhaps the tables have turned.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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Linda said that Carol was always taking care of her growing up. She was a gifted painter. She was adventurous and independent. She was always focused on what she could be doing to better her own life and the lives of those around her.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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Linda held on to a list of goals that Carol had left behind from 1989. A catalog of the things that she would have liked her life to eventually become. Things that, if she hadn't been taken so tragically from this earth, her sister Linda would have likely done with her.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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If you know anything about the murder of Carol Clement in Naples, Florida in March of 1992, you are urged to come forward. You can remain anonymous by submitting a tip through Southwest Florida Crime Stoppers online or by calling them at 1-800-780-8477. We'll also have all the ways that you can contact the Naples police directly in the show notes and the blog post for this episode.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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The Deck is an audio Chuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis. To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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More than just the latter was collected. They pretty much gathered up anything they thought could have been touched by their perpetrator, including Carol's clothing, all of the knives, the carpet, and her fingernail clippings, thinking that maybe she fought back during the struggle. They also collected two unknown hairs found on Carol's arms.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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Or could the killer be someone much closer to Carol than they previously assumed? I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck. Lieutenant Robert Young told us it was late Sunday morning, March 8th, 1992, when a woman named Welma stopped by her 51-year-old daughter's place on Gulf Shore Boulevard North in Naples, Florida.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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All of that would be sent off to the FDLE lab, while other investigators spoke with Carol's neighbors in the then-called Holly Green's Villa Condominium community, which was just walking distance from the beach.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)

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Since it was such a tight space full of mostly retirees, officers had a hunch someone in the complex may have seen or heard something. And they were in luck. There were two different couples who reported seeing what's referred to in the old police reports as a prowler, someone who was lurking around the complex the night Carol was killed.

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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)