Ashley Flowers
Appearances
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And if you are watching this episode on YouTube, you might notice I have a special guest with me today. This has been a wild couple of weeks when it comes to updates in cold cases. And one of North Carolina's most infamous cases, the disappearance of Asha Degree, was the latest to break.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Right. And though that happened in 2016, like, we didn't know why or what it meant or if it led to anything. But now, in 2025, that green car is more important than ever. Okay, so after they released the car information, like I said, radio silent, four years, just nothing. And then, in early September 2024, everything changes.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Oh, yeah. This looks super similar to those other two green cards that the FBI released back in 2016, which it makes total sense because like everything, like according to the search warrants, everything that the law enforcement agencies were up to in September, like this has to 100% be connected to Asha's case.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
So if you would, like, I had you go get the—it was so funny that I also have to be behind the scenes here. I tasked you. I was like, you've got to get these search warrants. And you're like, you have to be, like, in the court system or they mail them to you. And I was like, girl, you've got to have a friend. And you're like, oh, yeah, I'll just call.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
And everyone is talking about this, like Crime Juggies, you are blowing up our DMs. I hear you. And I am ready to jump right in because there's a ton of new information to cover. But I do want to tell people like how we got here a little bit and the reason I was like feverishly texting you because the timing of all this is a little wild.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
So that's probably all the stuff that they found in 2016 that they, like, we sent off to FBI. We found something.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Couldn't do anything with it, probably. Right. And I looked at these, too, and it seems like the Deadmans had zero connection to Asha's family, right?
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
So the important thing being like there would be no reason for their daughter's DNA or hair or their tenant's DNA to be anywhere near on her stuff unless they had some kind of interaction with her.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Which is so weird to me because we don't again, we don't have any context for how they know him. And they do seem like, yeah, very intricately tied into his health care.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
I just saw that. And I think it's like important to go into this car in a little bit more detail, like just for a second. So this is a 1964 AMC Rambler. So pretty old, like which is what we keep coming back to. And according to the search warrants, it was registered to Roy at an address that was searched by investigators. Okay.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Now, when it is seized by law enforcement, it is parked next to a house that Roy is renting to a tenant at the time. And this was the part that I thought was so weird. I don't know if it's connected to the car, but more just like broader strangeness of whatever was going on in this property that they got the car from. So the home used to be occupied by his daughter, Sarah.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Sarah's the middle daughter. But she had since moved. And the guy who lives there tells investigators that in the five years or so that he has been renting from Roy, he says there are these three rooms in the house that are all padlocked and he's been told not to go in them. Which, like, what?
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Oh, whoa. Okay. So you guys are caught up in the car. That happens in September 2024. So there was a flurry of information at the end of 2024 where Asha's case was you guys were DMing us about it. We were like kind of holding to do an update because we thought something bigger was going to happen. It took a minute. We weren't wrong.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
So that search wraps up and authorities obviously have the Rambler in their possession. They also have fresh samples of Roy, Connie, and Annalise DNA. It's also at this point that investigators come right out and say that they no longer think Asha is just a missing person. They now actually believe that she was a victim of a homicide and that her body has been concealed this whole time.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
But nowhere on any of the Deadman's properties did investigators find a body or human remains, nothing skeletal. Like all these searches took place over the course of two days and nothing definitively connected to Asha. Like there were, as far as I know, no more clothing or personal belongings, nothing surfaced.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Right. According to coverage by WBTV, the family's attorney, this guy named David Teddy, he holds this press conference and he asks the community not to spread rumors, not to jump to any conclusions about Roy or Connie or their daughters.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
He states that the Deadman family denies any involvement in the case and also kind of alludes to Russell Underhill perhaps being the link between the Deadmans, their properties, and whatever happened to Asha, which is like awfully convenient because according to the search warrants and additional news coverage, Russell died long ago, all the way back in 2004.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
So it's not like he's around anymore to say anything or defend himself.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Yeah. The same guy, by the way, who the Deadmans were clearly, like, very involved with in seemingly, like, his health care. He was in a health care facility and they're transporting him.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
And, I mean, I know why this attorney said what he did to reporters, but it still feels like, I don't know, just like a little too convenient for me still. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Anyway, where things get even more interesting, so this is why we're doing this now. On February 13th of this year, so, you know, weeks ago, barely, a week ago, that's when the Cleveland County Sheriff's Office executes three more search warrants for the Deadman family, specifically to investigate them for felony obstruction of justice.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
And it is these documents that I was like, you know, the 2024 search warrants were great, but these were the ones we had to get our hands on if we were going to do this update episode because what these warrants reveal are emails, text messages, cloud data, and phone calls between Roy, his daughters, and one of their ex-husbands.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
And some of these communications are head-turning to say the very least.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Right. And just to remind, so, for our listeners, Lizzie is Roy's oldest daughter. Sarah is the middle. Anna Lee would have been the youngest.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
So according to the search warrants, when authorities executed those searches in September at the family members' homes and properties, Lizzie spent a lot of time on her phone while all of that was going on. Her sisters, Sarah and Anna Lee, called her, then Roy called her, and then Lizzie called Roy. And so the search warrants contained things. pages and pages of text.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
But Delia, you pulled some of the messages that seem to really stand out to investigators. Like, I think we need to kind of go through these because this is like, I think the crux of everything.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
And I assume they mean that band T-shirt that they found in her backpack.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
And it's the next few messages that I think are the most interesting, and they come the day after... The ones that you were just reading, they come from Sarah, the middle child, to Lizzie, who's the oldest. Sarah says, I just talked to David Teddy, who is the family lawyer. I just talked to David Teddy. The theory is I did it. Accident. Covered it up.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
And Lizzie later texts her ex-husband again and says, I feel so horrible. So, so horrible. I don't know what to do. I caused this.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Yeah, and keep in mind, like between a lot of these texts, there are phone calls back and forth between Sarah, Lizzie, Lizzie's ex-husband, Anna Lee, Roy, like they're all playing phone tag. And after all of this, it seems like everyone clams up and they aren't talking to investigators anymore. Yeah. So after September 28th, there's another string of messages between Sarah and Lizzie.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
And it starts with Lizzie saying, Like, what are they doing now? What's going to happen to me since I wouldn't talk to them? To which Sarah replies, I know, girl, I am a disaster. I think if they come at you again, you just go and be compliant. That's what I'm planning on doing. And then Lizzie writes back, I think so too, honestly.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
I mean, I want to do what dad says, but damn, to which Sarah replies with, and maybe we should have let you do what you originally wanted to do. But we don't know what that is. Now, on February 10th, authorities asked Lizzie to take a polygraph, which she does. But according to what investigators put in their search warrants, the results of that test show signs of deception.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
And that same day, investigators also visit Sarah and ask her for another interview, but this time she declines. So at this point, it's really Roy, Sarah and Lizzie that law enforcement feels pretty sure have obstructed or at least at a minimum interfered with the investigation into Asha's disappearance and likely death.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Delia tells me she's like, I'm going to just like reach out to some people, see if I can make some contact. But nobody had reached back out to you. And it's because it turns out everyone's been really busy.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Like reading between the lines a little based off of some of the FBI and other law enforcement officials like previous statements. To me, it's feeling more and more like maybe what happened to Asha was some sort of accident. Maybe it was a hit and run. But it seems like then they're thinking it was allegedly covered up by Roy or Connie, possibly also the daughter's question mark.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
I know. And the thing I don't know, I wish I knew more about that sighting that someone has of like her going into the green car. Was she going fighting? Was she conscious? Did it seem like she was unconscious? Do they know? And I also wonder... This theory of an accident doesn't explain why she was on that road to begin with, which I cannot get over.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
And when I hear cold cases in North Carolina, there is one name that comes to mind.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Yeah, I haven't seen anything put forward that she was, like, meeting up with someone. Or again, we've got no connection between her and this family. So if they're involved in some way, an accident seems to be what, like, police are posing, or at least in the text messages, what they think police are posing based on what their lawyer is saying.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Did an accident happen? And the other big bombshell from these search warrants, it wasn't just the text messages. There is someone who has a story that kind of corroborates this idea that it could be an accident and that these sisters were involved. So this testimony is from a local guy named Thad Melantine, who authorities interviewed on September 18th of 2024.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
And it's only in the most recent search warrants, though, that we were made aware of this interview. So we didn't have them in the September ones. We just got them in February. But according to the documents, Thad tells the sheriff's office that in the mid-2000s, he was in his 20s at the time and hung out with the Dedman sisters at bars and, like, house parties, like, on a pretty regular basis.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
And at one particular house party, after Asha Degree vanished, he saw Lizzie, the oldest, sobbing, like bawling her eyes out while seemingly pretty drunk. And she's crying and he hears her make several statements admitting to killing Asha. But when Sarah, her sister, overhears her sister say this, she immediately like grabs Lizzie's head and tells her to, quote, shut the
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Now, that reaction from Sarah kind of caught Thad off guard because he always knew Sarah to be very calm, a very nice person. So the story is wild. I don't know why we're learning the story. Like, where was Thad in 2000? And to make sure he wasn't lying, investigators had him take a polygraph and he passed with flying colors.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Totally. I don't think a polygraph is the end all be all. But like if the dude's not lying, the story he told is worth looking into. And with everything else we're finding, like it's making a lot of sense. Agreed. Yeah. So as of this recording, no formal arrests have been made in the case and no human remains have been found.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
But like I feel like I've said this many times before, this case seems to just keep evolving every day. New updates and maybe even possible arrests could come literally any second now, even by the time this episode gets out. And that is a good thing because Aisha's family has waited 25 agonizing years to learn what really happened to her.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
So if you guys have any information about the disappearance of Asha Degree or the individuals that we've discussed in this episode, please call the Cleveland County Sheriff's Office at 704-484-4788. Or you can call the FBI's Charlotte office at 704-672-6100. You can find all of our source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Yeah, they've been a bit busy, like I said. So TBD on the next season of CounterClock. We'll see. There might be another case for you to solve if this one gets solved. But Delia's loss for CounterClock is Crime Junkie's gain because it has given her and I time to deep dive into all the new updates and you get to hear them right now. So let's not waste a single moment. We have a lot to get into.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast. And I'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
It all starts on Valentine's Day morning in 2000. Asha Degree is nine years old, and she's living with her mom and dad, Iquilla and Harold, and her 10-year-old brother, O'Brien. The family's apartment is in Shelby, North Carolina, which is about an hour directly west of Charlotte, if I've got that right, Delia? Yeah. Okay. So the Degrees go to church on Sunday, February 13th.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
They have lunch at one of Asha's aunt's houses, which is just down the street from their place, and then they turn in for the day at around like 8.30 p.m. Harold goes to work at a second job that he has, and Iquilla spent the evening with O'Brien and Asha.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Now, normally Iquilla would give her kids a bath that night, but there had been some kind of car accident or like crash near their home that had kind of, I guess, knocked out their power. So their normal routine is basically just like out the window for that night.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
And so because of that, Iquilla had planned to just, like, do it all the next morning, which would be Monday, February 14th, which is, of course, Valentine's Day. So overnight, between the 13th and 14th, sometime between 1230 and 230, Harold gets home from his second job. And before he goes to bed, he checks on his kids.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Thank God we have a resident expert on call for all things North Carolina. Because when this happened, I was feverishly texting you. I was like, you need to come tell this story. You need to get all the search warrants and like get on a plane and come to Indianapolis immediately. You were not in Indianapolis a day ago.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Aisha and her brother actually share a room, so he was able to peek in and lay eyes on both of them at the same time. By 545 in the morning, Iquilla is up for the day and she goes to start the kids' bath like she planned, do the whole morning routine thing so they can get out the door for school by 630. But when she enters O'Brien and Asha's room, she only sees O'Brien asleep under his covers.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Asha's just gone. So the family searches all over their house. They search in the cars. They have like talking to family members who live nearby. And they're getting frantic as more and more time goes by and they can't find Asha after doing all of that. So they decide at around 630 a.m., like, OK, now it's time to call the police. Right. Like they don't wait all day long by 630.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
The Cleveland County Sheriff's Office responds to that call by 6.40 in the morning. And right away, they're using scent dogs and sending out more deputies to look for Asha. By 7 a.m., the Degrees' friends and neighbors are all awake and they learn what's going on. And initially, investigators look for signs of forced entry at the family's house.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
You know, like anything that might indicate an intruder came in, but there's just none of that. In fact, based on what Harold told the dispatcher, which was that some of Asha's things like her backpack and pocketbook and like shoes and stuff were missing, they're also considering whether there's a possibility she could have just walked away on her own.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
But for some reason and a reason no one could really explain, her stuff is gone. Oh, and I might have forgotten to mention this, but all of the doors to the Degree's house were reported to have been locked when everyone woke up. And interestingly, Aisha did have her own spare key in her book bag.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
So I think maybe that kind of also made people assume that she might have left on her own and then took her stuff, used her key to lock up. Otherwise, why was everything like locked up like that?
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
You know, yeah, I think that's always been a bit of a stretch, like of an assumption, at least in my mind. And it's never been definitively stated as the reason she left. To your point, she had a good home life as far as we know. So I think that people were just like looking for anything. And that's like the biggest wrong thing in the world of a nine year old.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Anyway, fast forward a little bit, and the next big thing that comes up to investigators is that a motorist was apparently driving along Highway 18, which is this two-lane road near the family's house. And this motorist tells authorities that they saw a young girl who matches Asia's description walking along that roadway sometime between 3.30 in the morning and 4 o'clock in the morning.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Now, where she is seen is like a mile from her front door, and she's headed into the town of Shelby. But at the time, it was like raining and storming, which I think is important. And other than the fact that this motorist saw her, it doesn't seem like they were able to gather anything else, and potentially because of the rain and the storm.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
The only really big detail is that when Aisha is reportedly seen by this person, she is not in her nightgown that she'd been wearing when her mom put her to bed the night before. Now she's actually said to have been wearing this long sleeve white shirt and pants. So she's like dressed in her normal like day clothes.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
And guess what she did. So we are going to shake things up a bit today. Britt and I actually covered this case on Crime Junkie way back in January of 2019. But instead of the throwback to that episode, Delia and I are going to walk you through this case with fresh eyes and a whole new perspective. Because what has unfolded recently, I think kind of changes everything.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Now there's another sighting of her by a truck driver who said that he made a U-turn to try and see if she needed help. But for some reason, when he got closer to her and asked her if she was OK, she just like ran off into the tree line. And that was the last reported sighting of Asha ever that we knew about at the time.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Right. So that happens on February 17th. Authorities who were still searching for her, like high and low all over the area at this point, they're like searching a rural property off Highway 18.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
And they end up talking to this lady there who tells them that on February 15th, so that would have been the day after Asha vanished, this woman found a random Mickey Mouse hair bow, a green marker and a pencil inside of a shed. And the items were just kind of like tossed right on the ground near the doorway of this shed.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
And when law enforcement, which at this point, by the way, includes the FBI, the North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation, when they come in and they do their own search of this shed, they find a bunch of candy wrappers that match some of the candy that Asha had gotten for Valentine's Day weekend before she vanished. But this doesn't lead them to Asha.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
And they don't get another lead for more than a year after that. It's not until early August of 2001 that a contractor digging an access road for a new house about 50 yards away from Highway 18 near this place called Burke County, which is more than 25 miles from the Degrees home. This guy finds a black trash bag buried in the land that he's working at.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Buried. And then when he takes that out, inside that black trash bag is another black trash bag. And then inside of that bag is a kid's book bag with Aisha's name and phone number written on it. And I don't know if I'm remembering this correctly. You might know, Delia.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
But I, at the time, feel like I remember me and Britt talking about how he, like, sees this buried thing, again, in trash bag, in trash bag. And he, like, doesn't do anything. He ends up, like, telling his partner or wife or whoever at home.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
if there wasn't like a little girl missing, like a kid's book bag buried in a bag in a bag. Like, yeah, very strange. Why does it take the wife to like make a call? But that's again, we said that day one, the story for another day. So eventually the sheriff's office gets their hands on this evidence.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
They do call the police and they do search the property themselves, but they actually don't find much of anything else related to the case. But when they look inside the book bag that has Aisha's name on it, they find a Dr. Seuss book from her elementary school library and a New Kids on the Block concert T-shirt. But the thing is, they don't really say much about those items at the time.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
They don't say if they were hers. In fact, if I remember correctly, I don't even think they tell people right away what was in it. I think that comes out like to the public years later. Yeah, it does. But they did send the book bag and its contents off to the FBI's lab for forensic analysis, and by 2003... Some kind of results had come back, but the sheriff's office didn't release those publicly.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
And clearly, whatever it was that they got wasn't enough to solve this case because it just languishes after that for another year and another. And then the 10-year anniversary comes and goes. Then the 15th. There's even a large reward that they end up offering, but there are just no new leads.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
The green car, yes. This becomes super important. So, in May of 2016, the FBI released that they believed a girl matching Asha's description got into a dark green vehicle. And I see, like, in later reporting, like, pulled in or, like, more of a forcible action.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
They say that that was seen on the morning she vanished. And actually, they specifically say that the car could be either an early 70s Lincoln Mark IV... or a Ford Thunderbird with, like, rust around the wheel wells. Very distinct. Very distinct. So we actually have photos of each car. And as you can see, they're super similar.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Right. So it's the FBI's information about the car sighting that really grabs everyone's attention. Because it comes so long after Aisha disappeared. Again, there was like nothing in all those years. It's almost like... The thing I want to know is, like, where did this come from? Did you have it all along? And why wouldn't you have released it sooner?
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Asha Degree
Or if someone knew it was coming forward, why wasn't that part of the story?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
You see, police learn that he'd had a really happy childhood. There were five siblings altogether, so there was always someone to play with. And Aaron was like the daredevil of the bunch, always climbing these big trees that they had in their yard of their family home in Oregon. And it wasn't until high school that Aaron began getting into trouble.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
By that time, they had moved to Phoenix, and Aaron started drinking and using drugs. And when he was 19, he had crashed his motorcycle while being chased by police. Oh. He actually almost died in that accident, and he ended up suffering some brain damage. And that is when he really started to pull away from his family.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
When his parents moved back to Oregon for a bit, he actually stayed behind in Phoenix, preferring to sleep in homeless shelters. And when they eventually came back to Phoenix, he tried living with them for like a minute, but it just didn't last very long. Over the years, he was in and out of jail, including a seven-year stint for burglary.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And after he was released, his family tried to find him and even bring him home. His dad even hired two private investigators to track him down at one point. But Aaron was restless. Like, he didn't like to stay in one place for very long. And this whole time, his struggles with drugs and alcohol use are continuing.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
But his family says they never stopped loving him, and they never stopped hoping that he was going to turn his life around. So now to learn that not only was that never going to happen, but that he died in this god-awful way is just beyond devastating. Now, because his family hadn't talked to him in so long, they couldn't offer anything valuable to police to progress their investigation.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
But around this time, they do get what they think is a promising lead elsewhere. See, the rumor mill hadn't stopped turning, and the police were determined to get to the root of it all. So they track down this guy, Carl, who seems to be at the center of this rumor mill. Lots of people they talk to are basically like, well, I heard this or that or whatever, but I heard it from Carl.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
But the problem is once they get to Carl, he says, well, I'm just telling people what Robert told me. Oh, my God. So around and around and around the story goes. Now, it's a good thing they did track Carl down, though, because there are a few noticeable differences between the story that Robert has been telling police and what he's apparently been telling Carl.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And it has no shortage of customers, thanks to a Circle K convenience store on one end of the plaza. And that thing's open 24-7. One of those customers is this guy named Nimoy. He's with a woman headed to the Circle K from his nearby apartment. And this is like 6.50 p.m.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Like, for one, in this new version of events, Robert's been telling Carl that Charlie wasn't even there. Again, Charlie's the one that has the two statements that are changing. He says he's not there, but Max, Nate's brother, was there. It seems like they're basically swapped out.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Now, as they continue to talk to Carl, what they find out is that Carl, I guess at some point, actually confronted Nate about the fire. And Carl says that Nate denied being involved to him. So he's not bragging about being involved to everyone. And he even said that if he had done anything to Aaron, he'd be two states away by now. But Carl says he doesn't believe him.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
He also thinks that Nate is responsible for Aaron's death. But Carl says that he won't testify to any of that should this case ever go to trial.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
No, so that's the thing. Like, these guys are proving to be difficult to actually track down. Detective Rostenberg told us that at the time, they think Nate and Max might have left the area for a while. But it sounds like Max might have actually been at college at the time. And Charlie had apparently moved to California.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the timing isn't lost on me either. But there isn't much they can do. Again, they don't have an eyewitness. And like I said, even though Carl's like, oh, I'll never testify, I don't know what he would even testify to because he wasn't there. He's hearing rumors like everyone else. And so that's the problem.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Everything in this is like heard third hand and lead after lead falls through. And everyone who says that they have information just ends up regurgitating the same rumors that they've heard a thousand times. So until they get some concrete evidence, that's all everything is, just rumors. But with these rumors, some people start to suggest a possible motive.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Some of these guys who are known to mess with Aaron, I guess, are wealthy. Maybe they just don't have any sympathy for homeless people because they've never dealt with any hardships. And that might seem like a stretch, but this lack of empathy isn't just towards Aaron.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
I kind of looked into this, and according to John Dickerson's reporting for the Phoenix New Times, there had been a recent uptick in violence against homeless people. And that disturbing trend can be seen across the country. The National Coalition for the Homeless says that in 2006, 122 homeless people were attacked and 20 of them were murdered. Now, that's probably an underreporting.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And suddenly, the both of them hear screaming coming from an open-air breezeway, which is basically like a walkway that separates some of the buildings. And it sounds like a man screaming, but they can't really see what's going on until they come around the side of the Subway sandwich shop to a courtyard that has these like concrete picnic tables and like benches.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Again, that's from years and years and years ago. Yeah, I was going to say, that's also just the ones that were reported. Exactly. Because what I know is that Aaron didn't report any of the incidents that were happening to him to police.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Well, and what's especially sad is that it seemed like despite everything, despite the harassment, Aaron kind of thought of these guys, like, as friends. He thought that they liked him or something. But these so-called friends now are nowhere to be found. And for months, the police are just at a standstill. And time doesn't bring more answers. Right.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
In early June, police learned that no ignitable liquid residues were found on any of Erin's clothing. But the lab does caution that negative results don't rule out the possibility that liquids, specifically ignitable liquids, were initially at the scene.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're talking like gasoline or something like that. And they're saying that we couldn't find any. That doesn't mean they weren't there. They could have evaporated. They could have been completely consumed by the flames. So physical evidence is telling them nothing. But that month, that's when a guy named Ryan comes forward with a story that police haven't heard yet.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
When Ryan sits down with them, he tells three variations of the same story. And I'm not going to tell you every single detail because honestly, it gets super confusing. Like, I can't tell you how many times I had to go over it over and over again, and I was still finding myself getting confused. But the basics of what you need to know are this. He introduces two new people, Curtis and Ramon.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And he says that these guys hang out with lots of the people in our original group of four guys, who, if you remember, are Nate, Max, Charlie and Donnie. Although notably, Donnie hasn't been placed at the scene by anyone yet. It's all been Nate, Max and Charlie.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Right. And now Ryan is saying that Curtis and Ramone also hang out with these guys regularly. Got it. So basically where his story ends up landing is these two new guys, Curtis and Ramone, and then three of the original group, Nate, Charlie, and Donnie. So basically everyone but Nate's brother, Max, right? Right, right, right. Okay, so you're following. I know there's a lot of names.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
There's a lot going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he says those five people were all there with Aaron on the night that he died. And he said that while they were hanging out, Donnie and Nate were flicking lit matches at Aaron. And he says that it was Donnie's match that got caught on either Aaron's beard or the sleeve of his wool coat that he was wearing.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And Ryan says that Aaron was really drunk, so he didn't really react to this happening. Now, he says, like, I mean, has to be really shortly after they flick this. But basically, he's like, we all got up, and we got in the car, and we drove away. And we look back, and that's when we notice that Aaron is face down on the bench burning.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
But they just, like, figured he'd put the fire out by himself, and they just kept driving. So was Ryan there before?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And something is on one of those benches right next to the Subway. And whatever it is, is on fire. And at first they don't know what they're looking at, but they quickly realize that it is a person engulfed in flames. Oh, my God. Nimoy and the woman rush over to the Circle K to get help. There's actually a customer who's leaving the store and they like tell them, listen, someone is on fire.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Well, I mean, that's the only way he can. So go ahead and scream. But he does say that like someone there told him. So he says that he heard it from Ramon, who, again, he's saying Ramon was there when it happened. And like in this same breath, he also tries like vouching for Ramon. He's like, he's a good guy. He was the one that was like crying as he recounted what had happened that night.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
He knows that it kills him inside to think that they could have helped him but didn't. But he says that the other guys he heard were not sad at all. Like, I guess they were finding it funny. They're like laughing about it. Okay. Do police believe any of the story, though? I mean, maybe. Again, it's interesting. It's at least different than everything they've heard before.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
They're at least like one degree removed, right, from the person, not like six or whatever. Right, right. But the problem is it is still someone who heard the story from someone else. It is not an eyewitness. Now, they want to corroborate this as best as they can.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
At the time, police are still having a hard time tracking down everyone, except they are able to actually track down Ramon, who is supposed to be the source of this information. And if what Ryan is saying is true, that he is the one who has like a sense of remorse about this whole thing, maybe they're going to have like some luck getting him to talk. When they bring Ramon in, he is freaked out.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And at first, he insists that he wasn't there during the fire. He says that they were all hanging out, but he and Curtis just kind of smoked some weed and then they left. But police don't believe him. So investigators warn him that they have security footage, which we know they don't, but they're like hoping that that'll get him talking. And it works because finally Ramon breaks.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
He tells detectives that he actually saw the whole thing. He says that Donnie was trying to light a blunt with some matches, but they were all duds. So Donnie would like strike a match, then flick it. And one of the matches landed on Aaron's wrist or cuff or something. And Aaron was so drunk that he couldn't even lift up his head. He was like basically passed out on the bench.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And in the position that he was in, which was like half sitting, half slash like laying, the match landed by his shoulder and by his long hair. Now, he says Donnie finally got the blunt lit while this is going on and they all jump in someone's car to drive away. But as they're pulling out of the parking lot, Ramon looked over and saw the sleeve of Aaron's coat was on fire.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
But he says they didn't turn back. And later on, Nate got a text from someone asking if he had heard about what happened. And that is when Donnie started to freak out, saying that he needed to get out of the state and that if anyone told on him, he'd have them killed. Since then, Donnie had called Curtis and others from private numbers to threaten them, he said.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Which is why Ramon says that he hasn't come forward. He was scared for his life and for even his family's safety. Ramon says that he doesn't think Donnie meant to kill Aaron, but accident or not, if Ramon is telling the truth, Aaron's death is Donnie's fault.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Right, especially if what they're saying is true, that Aaron was so drunk that he couldn't even sit up. He wasn't even conscious. Completely incapacitated, yeah. Yeah, any thought anyone might have had of like, oh, he'll put himself out. I don't even know how you could actually think that. So this interview actually changes everything.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Like Ramon might not be 100% consistent, but police finally have somebody who was there. They have an eyewitness, not somebody who heard it from somebody who heard it from somebody else. Yeah, this is huge, honestly. Yeah, so a couple of days later, after detectives consult with a medical examiner, Aaron's manner of death is officially changed from undetermined to homicide.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
We need your cell phone to call 911. Now, listen, the customer had seen something burning when he drove into the parking lot, but he figured it was like a tiki torch because one of the restaurants had some of those outside. So this guy actually thinks that these people are screwing around with him. And so he tells them that he doesn't have a cell phone, even though he actually does.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Meanwhile, the used matches that they found at the scene, which had not been sent to the lab for testing, are submitted for DNA analysis. And detectives also decide to bring in Curtis to see if he'll corroborate what Ramon said. But he says that he doesn't remember much from Christmas. He says the whole night was like a blur, but he certainly doesn't remember Aaron catching fire.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And he says he can barely even recall names of the guys who were there because he doesn't know them all that well. However, police know that's not true. You see, they have his phone records, which show that he had called Nate four times within an hour that night. And when they confront him with this, he said that Nate knows a guy who gets them weed.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
So he's like, that's the only reason I was calling. That's why there's like four calls, whatever. Now they want him to take a polygraph. He's like definitely not willing to do that, mostly because he says he just smoked a few hours ago and he doesn't know like what that's going to do to the results.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And this is where police like jump in and they're like, actually, you've already been taking a polygraph this whole time. You just didn't know it. Police tell him that they have been analyzing his voice and doing like a stress test analysis thing as he's talking. And so they're like, you know, even though you don't think you're taking a poly, like we know you're lying.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Now, this isn't actually true. Police weren't testing his voice. And Britt, I actually had you look this up anyways. Like, if they were doing it, would it have been accurate? And you found some interesting things, right?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
I feel like I heard one time that like they're even less reliable than a polygraph, but I'm not 100 percent on that. Either way, so they tell him this lie. Curtis doesn't know that they're lying. So he starts to backtrack. And eventually he's like, OK, I did see someone flicking matches, but only at the ground.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And he admits that when they were all in the car, someone got a text about how the whole area had turned into a crime scene, like there was tape all around it. But he says that he's not sure who was messing with Aaron or who was flicking matches. And he doesn't think anyone knew that Aaron had even caught fire. So as far as witnesses go, this guy's like, meh, at best.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
But regardless, investigators know that it's time to go after one of their big fish, the alleged fire starter, Donnie. And it's their lucky day. They learn that Donnie was just arrested that past May in Washington. Detectives contact prosecutors there in Washington and find out that Donnie had recently checked into a drug rehab facility.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
His defense attorney wouldn't give the prosecutors any details, but that attorney promised that Donnie would be at his next court appearance on July 10th at 9 a.m. So these Phoenix detectives fly out to Washington on July 9th. They get a search warrant to take DNA samples from Donnie. And true to his lawyer's word, the next day, Donnie appears in court.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And after the appearance wraps, police bring him in to chat with him. And he pretty much agrees to talk openly as long as his lawyer is present. And so after taking that DNA sample, they sit down to hear Donnie's version of events. He says that back at home, he and his friends often hung out in that little courtyard by the subway. That was a regular hangout spot.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And he knew that people messed with Aaron, although he says he didn't participate because he didn't think it was funny. And he says even though people messed with Aaron. everyone still liked him. Like they were cool with him. They weren't doing it because they didn't like him.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Again, I don't know if this goes back to like them being bored rich kids or what, but he's like the whole crew would give him money. They'd buy him cigarettes, stuff like that. And he's like, listen, Aaron was a good guy. I even considered him a friend.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
So when it comes to that day, he tells detectives that on Christmas, he met up with Nate and Charlie and this third guy that he only knows by the nickname Colorbanger. And police don't recognize this alias at all. And Donnie says all he knows about this color banger guy is that he's this skinny white guy, early 20s. He uses meth, lives somewhere around the area and wears colorful, tight clothing.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Hence the nickname, I guess. I don't know. Basically, he's got this punk rock style, short, spiky hair and piercings. So anyways, there's this new guy now. So on Christmas, they're all hanging out with Aaron and someone bought Aaron a sandwich and some shooters, which are those small airline bottles that they found at the scene. Donnie says that he wasn't drinking at all because he had to drive.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Well, again, I don't know why he thinks these people are screwing with him, but he actually goes over to get a look for himself. It's not like he just gets in his car and goes away. He's like, I'm just going to like see what's going on. And the closer he gets, he realizes like, holy shit, it is a person. So he does call 911.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
But Aaron got really drunk and passed out on the bench. He says other people kind of came and went while they were there. Friends, people from the neighborhood, Curtis, possibly Ramon. Then around maybe six or seven, Donnie says his aunt calls his cell to let him know that Christmas dinner was ready, so he needed to get back. So that's when he says he left alone in his own silver BMW.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
He thinks maybe he stopped somewhere to get cigarettes, and then he went right to his aunt's house, which is in Scottsdale, where he spent the night.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Bingo. According to Donnie, he only found out about the fire the next morning from an unnamed friend. And he said he didn't even believe it at first because the whole story was so shocking, again, so unexpected.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Now, he says that whoever that unnamed friend is told him that it was Colorbanger who threw the match or couple of matches at Aaron's arm, which resulted in the fire, but it was all an accident.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Well, no, because Donnie tells detectives that he's not sure where his friend got his information and he doesn't know how to get in touch with him.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Yeah, he says no. Cool. Awesome. Perfect. Yeah, it's definitely not the confession investigators were hoping for. And basically, the interview ends when Donnie's defense attorney says, listen, he's due to appear in court on another case. Like, we got to go. So detectives head back to Phoenix with Donnie's DNA.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
But when they talk to the folks at the lab, they're told that all they can really test DNA on are the matchsticks. And in that process, they're going to basically totally consume any DNA that's there. So this is a question that comes up a lot in cases. Like, we can try the testing, but if nothing's there, like, you can never test again. Right.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
We can try the testing, but it's the only testing we could ever do. Yeah. And in a year or two, the testing might be better if you want to wait. It's like this conundrum that so many detectives find themselves in. But at this point, it's November 2008. So they're coming up on the one-year anniversary of Aaron's death. And, I mean, they don't have any more than rumors and speculation to go off of.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And while he's on the phone with dispatchers, a clerk from the Circle K actually comes running over. But for some reason, even this clerk, when he first gets a look at the fire, he also thinks that someone is playing some kind of practical joke because it doesn't even look human. It looks like this big jacket and pants that were maybe stuffed with something.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
So they're like, you know what, let's just see what we can find. Go ahead, test the matchsticks. But months later, in April 2009, the lab reports come back that there is no human DNA that was detected on the matches. So after the DNA is a bust, years start to go by. Tips occasionally come in, but there are no major developments. Then in the fall of 2015, police decided to take a fresh look.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
They appoint Detective Rostenberg, who is assigned to Phoenix's cold case unit, and he reviews all of the evidence investigators collected eight years prior. Interview transcripts, audio files, lab reports, photos, everything. And in February of 2016, they decide to go all the way back to the very beginning and talk to Robert again.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Right. And he's the one who was at the center of the rumor mill back when everything first went down.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
But now they're hoping that maybe he'll remember something new. And even if he doesn't remember anything new, maybe he'll finally stick to one story. That'd be lovely. Yeah, but that's actually the opposite of what happens because his story has changed again. And this time, not like, oh, a little, oh, Charlie said this or whatever, like a drastic change. Right.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Robert now says that Nate's brother Max was there that night. Not only that, he says when he left the courtyard, he saw Max walking towards where Aaron and everyone else was hanging out, and he was carrying a red gas can. Um, that's not just different. That's like a big, important different. Huge. Am I wrong? Like, a gas can? Yeah, this is the first time anyone has brought up a gas can.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And they find it hard to believe this crucial detail would just slip someone's mind, you know? Right.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Yeah. Yeah, and again, to remind you, Max wasn't in his original version of events. He, like, was very specific in saying, like, I never saw him, but they're just, like, always together, so I assume he's there.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Yeah. It's so strange. But, strange or not, it's been years since police have gotten anything substantial, so... They're like, maybe we just get Max's DNA just to be safe. Okay, but they don't have anything to test it against, do they? No, they don't.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
But I think the idea is to maybe get a sample just in case they can test it against something in the future or it's a chance to talk to Max or make Max think there's DNA. I don't know. What I know is that when Max comes into the station to give the sample, they try and talk to him about Aaron, but he basically asked for a lawyer right away. And like, that's the end of that.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Now, over the years, there are a few other names or at least nicknames that kind of pop up. Like, for instance, in April of 2020, Phoenix police get an anonymous call from someone who says that word on the street is that a Hispanic man known only by the nickname Psycho took part in killing Aaron. Now, this psycho is supposedly in his mid-20s with short, dark hair, brown eyes and tattoos.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
They say he's like 5'6", 5'7", 135, 140 pounds. And he has a criminal record, although the anonymous caller didn't say what the record was for. And police are never able to identify this, quote unquote, psycho person. And apparently it's like a really popular nickname. So, like, it doesn't even narrow it down.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And speaking of nicknames, they also never find out who Colorbanger was, if there was a Colorbanger. Like Detective Rostenberg says he might not even be a real person at all, just a fictitious nickname and description that was fed to police.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
So they were able to track down Nate, but just like his brother, he lawyered up right away and has basically overall refused to assist in the investigation. Right. As for Charlie, police haven't been able to find him. They confirmed that he moved to California, but as of the release of this episode, he still hasn't been located.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Police would love to talk to him if he's out there and wants to give him a call. So here's where the case stands today. Investigators have preserved DNA samples from a number of people, including Donnie and Max. They're still submitting evidence for lab testing and trying to locate some of the potential key players that they never got to speak with.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
I don't know. I think it's their brain trying to like rationalize that. Like, again, it is Christmas Day. That's also the last thing you expect to find, right? Like a human burning right outside your place of work that has never happened before. Certainly not on this like family holiday, whatever. I don't know why that's the first thing that comes into their mind.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
What they really need to solve this case are eyewitness accounts, someone who can corroborate Ramon's story. Because they say it's going to be too difficult to just move forward with Ramon because he's associated with the whole incident. So Detective Rostenberg is hoping that people who know what happened to Aaron will do the right thing and come forward.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And of course, no one wants the case solved more than Aaron's family. His sister Nikki told us how frustrating it is to try and pick up the pieces and go on without her brother, while whoever is responsible for cutting his life short gets to live theirs every single day.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
So if you have any information about the death of Aaron Taylor in 2007 on Christmas Day, please contact the Phoenix Police Department at 602-495-5883. Or you can email coldcasehomicide.ppd at phoenix.gov. There's also an option to leave anonymous tips by contacting Silent Witness at 1-800-343-TIPS. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
But this guy at least is like, OK, whatever it is, it's a fire. It needs to be put out. So he tries to actually smother the flames with his jacket, but it doesn't work. And the fire is still burning when first responders get there at 7.01, within minutes of the initial 911 call. Thankfully, when firefighters approach, they realize that this isn't a joke.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
This is definitely a man who is straddling a concrete slab bench hunched forward. So they put out the fire and they move him into the open courtyard to start CPR. And that's when Nimoy, who had come back after getting help, realizes something that makes his heart sink. He actually knows the man that was on fire.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
He can tell by his build and by his beard that it's his friend, 36-year-old Aaron Taylor. Aaron is clinging to life as an ambulance rushes him to the hospital, but he doesn't make it. He's pronounced dead in the burn unit at 7.35 p.m. Police now have to try and figure out what in the world happened.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
As Phoenix detective Dominic Rostenberg told our reporter Nina, this isn't something you see every day. I mean, the scene is kind of a mess. There's water and foam on the ground from firefighters' efforts. There is blood and black charring on the bench that Aaron was sitting on. And there's a ton of evidence to collect, like burnt remnants of clothing.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
There's little liquor bottles, snack wraps, used matches and cigarette butts.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
I don't know. Like so much of it is wet or fire damaged, but they're still at least collecting all of it just in case something can be useful now or in the future. And as they're gathering evidence, there are other officers that are interviewing witnesses that were at the Circle K.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And the story I have for you today is about a truly horrific death that you probably haven't even heard of. And that's because our victim was experiencing homelessness. And for some reason, our society has decided that we shouldn't give these stories national attention. We shouldn't become obsessed with the outcomes of those cases.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And it turns out a lot of people in the area actually did know Aaron, either because they live nearby and they like frequent this strip mall area or they work in that strip mall area. You see, Aaron was experiencing homelessness and he spent lots of time hanging around there. His long hair and this beard that he had had earned him the nickname with locals that was Homeless Jesus.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Nimoy tells police that he's known Aaron for like three years. He was this sweet guy who struggled with alcoholism, often drinking until he passed out. But he never bothered anybody or caused any trouble. In fact, he had just seen Aaron yesterday on Christmas Eve and he seemed happy. He had never mentioned wanting to hurt himself.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And even though he's a smoker, Nimoy doesn't know of any times that he was careless with fire. When they talk to the Circle K clerk, he tells police that Aaron came in several times that very day to buy beer and, like, other random stuff. What he knew of Aaron was that he was lonely. He liked to talk a lot. And actually, he came in that afternoon sometime between 2.30 and 4 p.m. just to say hi.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
He'd been by himself. He didn't even seem drunk when he was there. But even though people who knew him said that he was generally pretty cheerful, it's also common knowledge in the neighborhood that he had been dealing with some severe harassment from this one group of guys. Basically, they would like get him really drunk.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Then they would assault him, make fun of him and just do some pretty awful stuff. Like, for instance, police learned that about a year ago, this group had apparently duct taped Aaron to a bench in that very same courtyard. And there's even talk that one of them broke Aaron's ankle. Lots of people remember seeing him wearing a cast around that time.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And it seems like everybody's heard stories of Aaron getting beat up or having things thrown at him or even having stuff stolen from him.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Well, yeah. So police keep hearing four names in connection to the harassment. And just so you know, so from here on out, I'm going to be using pseudonyms for everyone. So they learn about two brothers, Nate and Max, and then a couple of their friends, Charlie and Donnie. And apparently this group of four are like known troublemakers.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
They like to hang around this strip mall courtyard and security guards tell police that they've actually had to boot them off the property multiple times. Once for pushing Aaron around and pouring water on him even. And every time they like stay away for a month or two and then they just start coming back. The clerk actually refers to this group as the, quote, post-high school guys.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And that's exactly who these guys are. So Nate's the oldest at 22. His brother Max is only 17. Charlie is 20. And Donnie is 19 when all of this is happening. One witness basically tells officers these guys are like the Beavis and Butthead of the area. Like, they egg each other on to act like idiots. And this witness says that he thinks they're likely the ones who started the fire.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Well, yes. So the Circle K employees tell police that they were in and out multiple times throughout that very afternoon. Now, before police can track these guys down, results from Aaron's autopsy come in the next day. The medical examiner determines that he was alive when he caught fire and he was severely burned on his head, his upper torso, his arms and the top of his thighs.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
His cause of death is listed as conflagration, basically a large fire. And the manner of death is undetermined because even though the circumstances are clearly suspicious, police don't know what actually happened. But they are determined to get to the bottom of it. So that same day, officers back at the strip mall start canvassing businesses for surveillance cameras.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
But we crime junkies don't buy into that. This is absolutely a case you'll be obsessed with and furious over. This is the story of Aaron Taylor. It's Christmas Day 2007, a Tuesday. And despite the holiday, there is this strip mall in Paradise Valley Village, which is a neighborhood of Phoenix, Arizona.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Only two stores actually have them. The Circle K is one of them. And then that subway right by that courtyard. But the problem is Circle K's isn't going to do any good because it's not like trained on the courtyard where all of this went down. So they might have better luck with Subways, but it's going to take some time to download the footage and comb through it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
So while that's going on, detectives follow up on a new lead. There is a mall security guard that reaches out to them and says that someone named Robert is at their office and he wants to speak with police about Aaron. Now, when police go to the security station that he's waiting at, they can tell that Robert's been crying. He seems really nervous.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
And once they start talking to him, it becomes clear why he's so nervous. Robert tells officers that he and a friend were with Aaron right before this all happened. He says Aaron was in the courtyard drinking with Nate and Charlie, plus two other white guys whose names that he says he doesn't know. And Robert says that he heard Charlie say, quote, end quote.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Now, it's important that Robert does tell police that the guys were planning to give Aaron like four or five more beers. So I'm not sure if that comment was supposed to mean that they were planning to beat him up or just get him really drunk or what. Mm-hmm. Anyway, he says that he and his friend left before any kind of fire started.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
But he thinks that Nate and Charlie are involved somehow, along with Nate's brother, Max. Though Robert says he didn't actually see Max that night anywhere, but he says these brothers are always together. And so it sounds like maybe he's thinking that Max came by like after he was already gone.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
No. So for sure, he says like he would know Nate and Charlie and Max and Donnie. Like he knows all of those regular guys. So he said whoever those other two were, he didn't know them. Now, this is really interesting from Robert, and it's especially interesting because he's not the only one who can place them at the scene.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Police get a call from a woman who says that her daughter told her that Nate had been bragging about setting Aaron on fire. Now, this is the start of a big he said, she said scenario, because as news of Aaron's death has spread, there were also rumors about what really happened and who was with him that night that start to spread as well.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
So when police contact the woman's daughter, she says that, well, you know, I didn't personally hear Nate bragging about it, but I heard this rumor that he had poured gasoline on Aaron and then lit him on fire. And she says that she heard the rumor from her boyfriend who heard it from someone else. Cool, cool, cool. So this is just a big game of telephone. Exactly. Exactly.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
So a couple of days later, investigators contact Robert again, hoping he can maybe elaborate on some of the stuff that he said. He's really like their only witness who was there right before it happened. But he says that he doesn't want to come to the station. He thinks that the people responsible for Aaron's death are going to retaliate against him for snitching.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
So instead, he agrees to meet detectives at a McDonald's where he nervously goes over his story with them one more time. And most of the story is the same. He and a friend are with Aaron, Nate, Charlie, and those two guys that he can't name. This is around 6 or 6.30.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
He says that Aaron was already drunk and someone from the group had bought him some of those little like airline bottles of liquor for Christmas. So they're like egging him on to drink like more and more and more. And before he left, he says that he heard Charlie tell Nate, quote, Aaron's going to fall hard tonight.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Wait, that's a different comment than the one that he originally shared with police, right? That's correct. So it's a different thing that Charlie supposedly says. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
The thing is, I don't think investigators get too hung up on that like specific quote or that difference or line or whatever, because it's not clear if Charlie reportedly said both things or if Robert truly is confused and completely swapped them out. But either way, he says that he didn't think much of the comment at the time.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Again, whether it was the first one, the second one, he didn't know what it meant. And maybe the reason they don't spend too much time on it is because there's something else that he adds to the story that's new.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
He says that hours after the fire, this would have been around 1 a.m., that he went to the strip mall again and he was approached by a group of young men who threatened to jump and rob him. He said that he's pretty sure some of them are friends of Nate's. And although nothing ended up happening, he believes that they just wanted to intimidate him before he could talk to police.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Now, he clarifies that he's never heard any people from that group brag about hurting Aaron, even though they do think it's funny to get him drunk and mess with him. And he says he's never heard them threaten Aaron either, aside from that one comment Charlie made, which Robert only found threatening in hindsight.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
But despite this, despite that he hasn't like seen or heard anything directly, he says he still thinks that Nate or his friends must have somehow been involved, like somehow they started that fire.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
Well, I mean, they're not sure yet, right? That's why it's undetermined. But even if it was an accident, Aaron is still dead and someone is responsible. So what they're hoping, police anyway, is that the answer is going to be in that security footage from Subway. It's going to give them something to work with.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
However, when they get it back, it turns out that none of their cameras have footage of the courtyard. So there is no way to see what happened. More importantly, there's no way to even verify Robert's story. Now, it's around this time that police are finally able to locate Aaron's family, and they have to deliver the difficult news of his death to his parents.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Aaron Taylor from Phoenix
But they're hopeful maybe learning more about Aaron can potentially help them find out what led to his death. And when his family finds out, they're stunned. I mean, they're horrified to hear the details of how it happened. Though they haven't seen or even spoken to Aaron in, honestly, years, they don't understand why someone would do this to him.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm Ashley Flowers. And I'm Brit. And I've got news. I want to try to bring you guys more case updates when they happen. So we're going to try something new here. Yep. Tell us if you like it, if you want more.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
They haven't given up on finding the kids, but it's getting harder to hold out hope because every search is turning up nothing. Days turn into weeks, weeks into months. And in September, eight months after the Beaumont children went missing, a police officer in town, and this is about like 200 miles east of Adelaide, overhears an interesting conversation on his phone line.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Now, this town is a really small one located like right between Adelaide and Melbourne. So what's happening is this local officer is basically trying to call the head office of Melbourne when according to the book Searching for the Beaumont Children, he hears a woman mention bringing the Beaumont kids back from Hobart on the island of Tasmania.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
From what I understand, he's able to hear because somehow some wires got crossed. And I actually had to look up what this means for myself. And it kind of goes back to really old phone technology. So I looked up on Astro Telecoms about crossed wires. And apparently, it's like a pretty common problem in the old Australian phone systems infrastructure.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
So basically, if you got online and you had a crossed wire, you could hear part of someone else's conversation.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
The fact that he heard this is totally legit. But here's the problem. The officer who hears this thinks that it's a hoax. And everyone he talks to, the police in Adelaide, the police in Melbourne, like they all think it's a hoax too. Except for one man, Detective Sergeant Stan Swain. And he's with the South Australian police in Adelaide.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
He is so convinced that the call is real that he actually calls Jim and Nancy to tell them that he believes that their children are still alive. Now, while he's informing the family of what he believed to be true, other members of the South Australian police were tracking down the woman who actually made the call, you know, ahead of telling the family member.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And they learned the real truth, that the officer who heard the call only heard parts of the conversation. And I guess once they heard the whole thing in context, they come to believe that there is no real connection to the kids. So that incident obviously was a little bit embarrassing, having raised the family's hope.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
or Madeleine McCann for those in the U.K. In 1966, three young children left their home to go swimming at the beach on Australia Day and were never seen again. Their disappearance changed Australian life forever and thrust caution into the forefront of parents' minds all over the country. This is the story of the Beaumont children. January 26, 1966 is a scorching hot day in Adelaide.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
But as if that's not embarrassing enough, just two months later in November, police find themselves up against a Dutch psychic who is just adamant that he knows where the kids are buried. Now, this man flies all the way to Adelaide from the Netherlands 10 months after the Beaumont kids disappeared, and it gets a whirlwind of media attention.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Like this guy's basically made a name for himself by claiming to be able to use his powers to solve missing person cases back in Europe. And like while he had some luck and some maybe pretty basic guesswork, according to the satin man, I guess in some cases he also got access to some confidential police files that I'm sure helped his quote powers along.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
So five years ago, when we were just baby podcasters, we covered the 1966 disappearance of the Beaumont children. And almost 60 years later, something is happening. But the thing is, you need to know the story to understand the importance of this update. So if you need a refresher, keep listening to our OG episode on the Beaumont children.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
So basically, he's already famous when he rolls in. And so the local papers make a huge deal of his coming down. Word gets out to the point that there's a crowd of Adelaide citizens at the airport waiting when he arrives, hoping that after almost a year, he's going to be the one to like swoop in, solve the case and finally give the family answers.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Now, to be super clear, police didn't pay him to come in. His trip was funded by a wealthy Adelaide citizen who actually paid all of his travel expenses. So he gets to Australia and claims that the Beaumonts are buried in a warehouse in Purringham Park. So this is a spot that he's stalking. And it's where he says they need to look in order to find the kids.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Now, keep in mind, he has no actual evidence to back this up. So ultimately, police won't go and excavate anything based on his visions or gut instincts or whatever alone. According to Crime Traveler's article, which we talked about before, the psychic claimed that the kids weren't murdered, actually.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
He says that they died as a result of some kind of accident and that this mystery man described by witnesses had nothing to do with their disappearance. And the police, as I'm sure you can imagine, are initially pretty skeptical. And so he can't get them to dig right away. And this is my favorite part.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
He basically only stays in Australia for three days before telling the public, like, yeah, I'm done. Like, I'm going back to Europe. Like, kind of washed his hands of it. Like, they won't do what I say. So peace out. Now, despite him leaving, like you would kind of think police are like, no, we're not going to do this. He leaves. Everyone drops it.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
But because it got so much media attention and because the authorities were refusing to excavate where this psychic said, the locals in Adelaide actually raised money to finance the dig themselves. Like they were crowdfunding back in like 67. Oh, my God. And do you know what this kind of reminds me a little bit of? It kind of reminds me of the most recent development in the Maura Murray case. Yes.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Like, remember, there was like that house that everyone, everyone was like, you have to look, you have to look. And police are like, no, like, we're pretty sure nothing's there. Like, we've been through this. And then they finally did. Because there was so much like public attention that I think they were finally like, okay, we're going to do this.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
But then after we do this, can we just do our jobs and can everyone calm down? Right. Plus, it didn't help that the place that he wanted them to like dig up was this warehouse. And someone like owned it. It's not like they were digging in the middle of the field. So there was a lot of stuff that police like did. Had to, like, try and work around.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
The owners are not happy about it. But after four months of media attention and basically demands from the public, they kind of finally just bow to the pressure and agree. Like, okay, you can dig up this one specific area where the psychic said the kids are buried.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
But what the warehouse owners say is police have to be there to make sure that everything is in order. And so what happens is a few months later after the psychic goes back to Europe with police present, they actually start a dig on March 1st of 1967, 14 months after Jane, Arna and Grant had gone missing. Now, the dig takes nine days, but when it concludes, no evidence whatsoever is found.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And the case goes back to being cold again. Now, by this time, over a year has passed since the children disappeared, so police attention has to shift to other cases. There are new cases popping up every single day, and this gets farther and farther from their minds. Right. And though the public never forgets the case, it gets further and further from the forefront of the public's mind as well.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
That is, until Jim and Nancy receive a mysterious letter. In mid-February of 1968, this is now two years since the kids went missing, a letter written in very childlike style arrives at the Beaumont's home. It's postmarked from the Melbourne suburb of Dandenong, over 400 miles east of Adelaide, and it claims to be from Jane. And this is what it says, as published in the Satin Man book.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Now, Jim does what any sensible parent would do, and he hands the letter immediately over to investigators. And he does this because right away there are some inconsistencies that stand out to police. Like, Britt, I don't know if you noticed, but the letter writer actually misspells Arna's name. Her name is actually spelled A-R-N-N-A, and the letter writer only spelt it with one N.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And apparently, the handwriting doesn't match any of Jane's school papers. Because of these pretty important inconsistencies, police are confident that this is another mean-spirited hoax designed to toy with grieving parents. But Detective Sergeant Stan Swain, the same guy who was so sure that the crossed wires call was a clue, is totally convinced that the letter is real.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And he's so sure of it that he manages to persuade Jim and Nancy to make a secret trip to Dandenong.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Stan tells the Beaumonts that he himself compared the handwriting in the letter to the samples in Jane's school books. And he decided that it was a match, which feels like maybe he's going a bit rogue because the department already said that that they weren't a match and that these were a fake.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And according to searching for the Beaumont children, Stan's boss told him, like, dude, you got to let this go. But he just couldn't. So going over his superior's heads and getting Jim and Nancy's hopes up once again is bad enough. But it just boggles my mind that this guy is willing to do it a second time when it seems just as unlikely to pan out into something real.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Like, to me, that's just borderline cruel. Yeah. But cruel or not, a desperate Jim, guided by Stan, follows the letter's instructions exactly. He gets the right clothes, stands outside the Dandenong post office while Stan keeps watch, and a phone call actually comes into the post office saying that, quote, the man has been delayed, but he'll be there soon. Wait, is this actually legit?
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Well, it kind of seems that way, right? So they wait, right? And wait, and wait, and day fades into evening, and neither the children nor this mystery man ever show up. Now, the next day, the same thing happens. Jim stays in front of the post office while Stan does surveillance, eager for any sign of the children or their abductor. And this goes on for three days.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Then the media gets their hands on the story because, get this, Stan actually booked a hotel room under his real name. And reporters find out that he's there with Jim and Nancy. So the whole thing blows up in the press. The operation is essentially busted.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And because of all this attention to this lead in the press, it actually results in more letters from the same town arriving at the Beaumont's home back in Adelaide. Oh. Someone claiming to be, quote, the man actually writes to Jim and Nancy himself this time, taunting them for involving police and even blaming them for not being able to get their children back. But is this one real?
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
I mean, the general belief is that this is yet another hoax. Even the call? Even the call.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Well, so in that book, Searching for the Beaumont Children, it actually kind of talks about this. By the time all of this goes down in Dandenong in 68, Stan is obsessed with the case. And he almost views this as just a little setback instead of the disaster that it really is. Like his ability to separate himself from the investigation is just totally gone.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Despite the weather, the city is brimming with excitement because not only is it Australia Day with this long weekend coming up, but there's also an upcoming Ashes cricket test match. So the city is teeming with sports fans from all across the country. The South Australian state capital, Adelaide, is this coastal city on the St. Vincent Gulf.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And unfortunately, Jim and Nancy, who suffer the most because of it,
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Right. And treating this obvious red herring as a credible lead effectively ends Stan's career in law enforcement. So he's kind of done. The Beaumonts return to their hometown. They kind of swear off talking to the media once and for all. And once again, the case goes cold.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Now, five years go by with no developments, no new leads until August 25th of 1973, when something terrible and all too familiar happens. Two young children go missing in an eerily similar fashion to the Beaumonts. Now, it's two young girls, 11-year-old Joanne Radcliffe and 4-year-old Kirstie Gordon. Now, they go missing from a highly public location, again, in broad daylight.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
They're at the Adelaide Oval Stadium to watch an Australian rules football match with their families. Now, Joanne is there with her parents, Les and Kathleen, and their family friends, Frank, while Kirstie is there with her grandmother, Rita. Now, since Rita knows Joanne's parents, she lets Joanne take Kirstie to the bathroom around 3.50 p.m. during the match's third quarter.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
She expects that the two girls are going to come right back, except after about 15 minutes, there's still no sign of them. So Les and Kathleen start searching around the stadium, but they're unable to find any trace of either Kirstie or Joanne. So they go to the Oval's head office and ask for basically an announcement to be made about the missing children.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
But since play is in progress, the announcement isn't made until after the quarter ends, which costs investigators and the family a lot of valuable time. Oh, my gosh. Forget about the game. There are two missing kids. Well, yet you'd think the office staff basically kind of rationalized it by saying, look, if we made this announcement while the game's going on, no one's really going to hear it.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
No one's going to pay attention. There's really no point, which maybe. But can we at least try? It's like my feeling like as a parent, I wouldn't care. Like, let's do it now. Let's do it later. I want you to keep doing it until you find my kid. But anyway, so police get involved and they start their search efforts.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And right away, similarities between Joanne and Kirstie's disappearance and the Beaumont children's disappearance start to appear. Like, think about it. Both of these abductions happen in very public locations. With the Beaumonts, you have a crowded beach and a reserve. And now you have a packed stadium with over 12,000 people when Kirstie and Joanne vanish. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Also, just like in the case of the missing Beaumont kids, witnesses in this new case put the two girls in the company of an unidentified man.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
One of Oval's employees, this guy named Ken, tells police that he saw a man with the two girls, two girls who matched the girl's description, trying to lure some kittens out from underneath a car that was parked in one of the equipment sheds on the grounds near the stadium.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And since the temperature is due to get up to 40 degrees Celsius, which is like 104 degrees Fahrenheit, the local beaches are packed on this day. Everybody has the same idea to beat the heat by heading to the ocean, maybe stopping at one of the local restaurants to pick up some lunch, doing just like the usual stuff to enjoy the day without just hiding inside until the sun goes down.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And Ken didn't think this was weird at the time because I guess a lot of stray cats kind of hung out in, around, or near the stadium and kids were always wanting to play with them. But he describes this man as being about five foot, eight inches tall, middle-aged, and said he was wearing this kind of distinctive gray checkered sport jacket with brown pants and a brown hat.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
They find another witness as well. This time it was a teenage boy who corroborates Ken's account, and they don't get to talk to this guy until like a week later. The Canberra Times reported back on August 31st of 73 that the teenager witnessed a man forcibly maneuvering the two girls toward one of the exits and into the public parking lot.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And the teenager said that the man was actually carrying Kirstie under one arm and dragging a struggling Joanne away with the other. And his description of the man matched Ken's down to the man's gray coat and brown hat. So armed with these two matching descriptions, a local Adelaide art teacher actually paints a portrait of the unidentified man.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And when the depiction is shown to the public, it shocks everyone. The portrait of the unidentified man from the Adelaide Oval disappearances resembles the sketch of the stranger who was last seen with Jane, Arna, and Grant Beaumont. And here, I want you to check this out for yourself, Britt. This is the same guy. This is exactly the same guy. I mean, the long face.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
It's the same guy with a hat on. That's the only difference. Yeah, the long face, the forehead. I mean, granted, you can't see his hair because of the hat, but everything else is exactly the same.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Like, to me, the only difference is, you know, the guy at the Oval Stadium, we call him Oval Guy, he's described as around 5'8", and Beaumont Guy is described as over 6' tall. But that height discrepancy is kind of negligible in my mind. Like witnesses can be off and depending on their stature, I think that's something that can easily be misjudged. Oh, definitely. We're 5'2".
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Everybody's tall to me. Everyone's so tall. But more than anything, they consider the cases as possibly connected because the M.O. is so similar. Like the victims are similar. Both the crimes are so brazen. And yet police have to look at the odds of having a dangerously skilled serial abductor in their midst now.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Whoever snatched Joanne and Kirstie seems to be just as good at hiding them as whoever took Jane, Arna, and Grant. Again, days turn into weeks and months with no break in the case and no clue about what might have happened to them. And just like in the Beaumont case, Joanne and Kirstie's case goes cold. Years go by with no definitive links outside of basically conspiracy theories.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
But in 1990, 17 years after the Adelaide Oval disappearances, and this is now 24 years after the Beaumonts went missing, the Adelaide media learns that the South Australian police are diving in this place called Maiponga Reservoir, which is 34 miles south of Adelaide. Now, ordinarily, this could easily be brushed off as like a training exercise or something.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
All in all, it is a good, peaceful Wednesday in the city. But then, sometime between 5 and 6 p.m. that evening, everything changes. A middle-aged married couple comes into the station. Grant, usually known as Jim, and Nancy Beaumont are worried sick because their three young children left home to go to Glenelg Beach that morning a little bit before 10 o'clock and they never came back.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Just something police won't confirm or deny, whatever. But their dive just so happened to take place after a witness in another murder case testifies that the Beaumonts are buried in that reservoir. Wait, go back. What other murder case? So it's actually multiple murder cases.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
So when this is going on, there are actually some really horrific killings in and around Adelaide in the late 70s and early 80s. And they were known as the family murders. And I'm only going to touch on them briefly here, but we're actually going to do like a more in-depth audio extra over in our fan club. So if you're interested, you can go there on our website.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
If you're already in the fan club, you can check that out after the episode. But let me tell you, these murders are pretty gruesome. From 1979 to 1983, five young men named Alan, Neil, Mark, Peter, and Richard go missing and are later found dead.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Now, four of the five were drugged and sexually tortured, and autopsies determined that they all died from blood loss stemming from severe anal injuries caused by insertion of a blunt object. Neil, Mark and Peter's bodies are found in pieces and Mark had been cut from his navel to his pubic bone and then re-sewn up with parts of his small intestine missing. Do we know how the fifth person died?
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Well, not really. So Peter went missing during the same time period as the others, but his body was accidentally burned by a farmer who obviously had no idea there was a corpse on his property and he was doing some like controlled burns. So it's not known for sure how he died. All that was found was his skeleton cut into pieces like Neil and Mark.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And the connection is on how he'd been mutilated after he died. Now, despite the connections and that they all seem super similar, only one of these murders is ever officially solved. Several of the victims were drugged with the same two prescription sedatives. So police use pharmacy records to kind of narrow down their suspect list. And it pays off when they find this Adelaide man named Bevan.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Police get a warrant for his house where, according to the book Searching for the Beaumont Children, they find both drugs as well as hair and fibers linking him to Richard, who was the fifth victim. Now, Bevan is charged and convicted for Richard's death in 1984 and sentenced to life in prison. Then, five years later, in 1989, he's charged with killing Alan and Mark.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
So in Bevan's second trial is where this mysterious witness, who we only know as Mr. B due to confidentiality, testifies that Bevan was the one that snatched the Beaumont children. And he also says that he's the one that took Kirstie and Joanne from the Adelaide Oval Stadium as well. And it's because of his testimony that he's the one that says that the kids are buried at the reservoir.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And so police are doing this dig. Then these records come out and the public is kind of putting this together. And so now all of a sudden Bevan's name is linked to the Beaumont kids. And as you can imagine, the media goes nuts.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Like this is not one, not two, but three of the most infamous crimes in South Australia history tied possibly together and potentially committed by the same person who's already in jail and off the streets. Like it seems like it could be a wonderful success story, like almost too good to be true. And realistically, it might be.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Especially since in the book, Searching for the Beaumont Children, Mr. B's credibility as a witness is seriously shaky. And they basically bring that up in court as well. Like he admits to participating in one of the rapes and he only agreed to testify after being granted full immunity.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And he insists that he deserves the full financial reward for, quote unquote, solving the crime, which makes no sense to me if you're also participated in raping some of the victims. Now, I couldn't find if he actually got the award, but I mean, since none of his testimony about the Beaumonts or Adelaide Oval was ever proven to be remotely true, I would be shocked if he actually got anything.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Now, the additional murder charges that Bevin went to court for are eventually dropped. And during the trial, he's not convicted. But thankfully, he is still in jail for killing Richard. And in my opinion, and this is just my opinion, I don't think he's the one responsible for the Beaumonts. For the family murders, absolutely.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Now, they were expected to be home first around like noon, but they never showed. And at first, their mom, Nancy, just kind of assumed that maybe they lost track of time. Maybe they missed the first bus and then they're going to be on the second. So she waits for the next bus to come, but they're not on the two o'clock bus either.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
But the Beaumonts and the Adelaide Oval kidnappings don't match the family pattern to me at all. Like four of the five missing children that we're talking about are girls. And the oldest girl that we're talking about is 11. Whereas in the family victims, those victims are boys that range from 14 to 25.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
He would have been in his early 20s at the time the kids went missing in 66, which is really too young to match the descriptions of the man seen at the beach. But again, it's worth mentioning because if you would do any research on this case, like his name is going to come up.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Exactly. But there's a lot that doesn't add up to me. And Bevan's never been charged with anything related to the Beaumonts or the Adelaide Oval disappearances. So after the trial in 1990, the Beaumont case goes cold yet again. And in 1992, the Dandenong letters are proven once and for all to be a fake when fingerprint analysis directs police to a man who
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
who had been a teenager back in the late 60s. And listen, he's never been named publicly, but according to authorities, he's actually admitted to writing all of the letters as a hoax. Now, time keeps passing. And while new theories often connect new suspects to the Beaumont's case, like including some other pretty notorious child killers across Australia, None of them are ever proven.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Like in 1998, eight years after that whole like reservoir dig, there was this 86-year-old man named Arthur who was arrested for the unsolved 1970 rape and murder of a five-year-old and seven-year-old pair of sisters. Now, he's charged with a whole host of offenses for sexually assaulting a young woman and other girls and in his own family.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And the reason he even got tied to it initially was that Andrew Rule actually reported for Sun-Herald in 2001 that a witness saw Arthur on TV after his arrest. And he placed him at Adelaide Oval with the two girls matching Joanne and Kirstie's description. And then they're thinking, well, whoever took those girls are thought to have taken the Beaumonts.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And that's kind of where that connection is made. But eventually, police completely clear him of any suspicion in the Beaumont and the Adelaide Oval cases. And he's like totally ruled out by like 2001. Now, five years later in 2007, the Herald Sun reported that convicted child murderer Derek Percy had been questioned by police like back in 2005 in relation to the Beaumonts.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And although he's thought to be responsible for at least eight other child's deaths, South Australian police told the Australian Broadcasting Corporation in 2014 that he was definitely not a significant person of interest for the Beaumonts. Like he was already in prison when Joanne and Kirstie were snatched up.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
So the parents try searching on their own at first, but after hours with no sign of the kids, Jim and Nancy knew that they had to go straight to police. According to Alan Whitaker and Stuart Mullen's book called Searching for the Beaumont Children and their follow-up The Satin Man, the police spring into action right away.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
So if the theory of, you know, the two cases being connected was real, like he couldn't have done both. And he doesn't really match the description from the beach. Now, despite these possibilities and, you know, the case getting renewed over and over again, No, like, real credible links ever emerged. And eventually, public fascination dims, though it never fully dies.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And eventually, a book is published a full 40 years after Jane, Arna, and Grant disappeared. And this is when writer Alan Whitaker and his research partner Stuart Mullins published the book Searching for the Beaumont Children, which is considered one of the most definitive and comprehensive accounts of this mystery. And it's a book that we've referenced a couple of times throughout this episode.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
I highly recommend it. But when they published this book, it's 2006 now, mind you, and despite the 40-year lapse in time, everyone was about to be shocked to find out that there was still secrets out there waiting to be uncovered. And people who held those secrets were finally ready to talk.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Because that's when Alan and Stuart get a phone call that changes everything that they and the police thought that they knew about this case. The person who called Allen and Stewart is a woman named Angela who believes that her former father-in-law had something to do with the Beaumont children's disappearance.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
She says that her ex-husband, a man named Hayden, confided that he saw his father with the Beaumonts on the day that they disappeared. Now, at first, Alan doesn't take Angela too seriously. He's gotten calls like this before, and he's had his fair share of run-ins with wannabe sleuths from all walks of life.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
But as the conversation continues, Alan realizes that not only is Angela's story fascinating, it's also really believable. So he and Stuart do some investigation basically into Angela and her background. Basically, they're trying to collect references to see, you know, if she can be considered trustworthy. Yeah, like to make sure that she's legit. Yeah. And all of her references come back glowing.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
So Stuart reaches out and he arranges a meeting. And this one meeting turns into a years-long investigation by authors, experts, private investigators, retired detectives, and others with dozens of interviews all around Australia in their meticulous hunt for the truth. And their findings become another book, which they titled The Satin Man, which we've also referenced throughout this episode.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Yeah. Now... The title of the book refers to a brand new suspect, the satin man. And the satin man is Angela's ex-father-in-law. Now, the authors in their book use pseudonyms for their subjects. But police and numerous news outlets like the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, the New Daily and CNN have all confirmed the satin man's true identity. So who is it?
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
His name was Harry Phipps, and he actually died back in 2004 without ever being on police's radar. Now, he was never investigated in his lifetime for any connection to the Beaumont children, but according to those who knew him best, the Harry seen in private was a far different man from the one presented to the public. The first and best known sign of Harry's, we'll call it a double life, is
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
When they get a description from their parents, they learn that Jane is the oldest at nine years old and she's super responsible, an excellent caretaker for her younger siblings. There's seven-year-old Arna and four-year-old Grant. And they learned that she left the house in a pink bathing suit with a little white purse to keep her money in. Now, Jane is also the swimmer of the three.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
is right there in the book's title, his obsession with satin. Harry was infamous within his family and their inner circle for having a satin fetish, like not a healthy fetish or interest, but one that was so consuming that literally no one was allowed to even wear satin near him because just the sight and sound of the fabric caused an instant uncontrollable arousal.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And according to the book, Harry made his own satin pajamas and dresses for sexual gratification, and he kept them in a private room in the house that the rest of the family was forbidden from entering.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Well, no, that's true. Like the obsession with satin doesn't. Except according to Harry's son, Hayden, there's more, like a lot more. Harry was a violent alcoholic who loved firearms. And his son says that he kept guns all over the house. And he also said that he had frequent outbursts against his immediate family and threatened them many times with his weapons. But it gets even worse beyond that.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Hayden confided in Angela that he had been violently raped by his father multiple times a week for many years growing up. And the abuse only stopped when he got big enough to defend himself. And basically, his dad's fetish of satin kind of ended up haunting him because... He said he was haunted by the swish of the satin fabric coming down the hallway.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
So he, where his dad couldn't be around it because it was too much and he was too aroused. I don't even think he could be around it later because it brought back so many awful traumatic memories.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Now, obviously, because Harry was never on anyone's radar, none of this was reported to the South Australian police at the time. And Harry was never charged with a crime. But by the time Harry comes into law enforcement's attention through Alan and Stuart, they've collected a whole laundry list of circumstantial evidence that casts a ton of suspicion on him.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Now, first, there's his status and his wealth. Harry was a very successful businessman, and he owned the Castaway factory in Plimpton, which is like a suburb of the area. Now, being rich and well-connected and prominent in Adelaide social circles was a great cover in the 1960s. Like, Harry didn't fit anyone's idea of what they thought a pedophile was.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
So Jim and Nancy were confident that she would keep an eye on Arna and Grant and make sure that they didn't go too far out into the surf. At the very start of this investigation, police don't want to believe the worst. The initial thought is that maybe the kids lost track of time, kind of like what their mom thought.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And so police never even looked in his direction. Plus, remember how the Beaumont kids bought their lunch at that bakery with that one pound note? Yeah. So apparently Harry was big on flaunting his wealth by handing out one pound notes to Hayden and his friends to like get them out of the house on Saturday so he could be alone with his satins.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Yeah. So it's like, here, here's some money. Now go away. And it's a habit that kind of continued into the next generation when Hayden's son, Nick, who apparently like lived with Harry for a time after his parents' divorce, like he would give him money as well.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
So although he's never publicly said that his grandfather did anything to him, Nick also alleges that sexually inappropriate experiences occur. Now, in the book, Nick tells Stuart about how Harry would rub up against him when they went swimming together, and that's kind of like the most that we got.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Yes. So this is like our biggest piece of circumstantial evidence. Australia 7 News did a documentary about Harry in 2018. And they have audio of an interview that Hayden did with one of the satin man's investigators where he recalls seeing the Beaumont children on the day that they disappeared at his family house on Australia Day 1966. Here, I'll play it for you.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And when they realized, like, actually how late that they were, maybe that made them freak out more and things kind of, like, escalated.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Now, I know that audio is a little rough to hear, so just to summarize, Hayden said that basically he saw three kids at his family's house on the day that the Beaumont kids disappear. And one was drastically shorter than the other two, and that would match because Jane and Arna were kind of close in height-ish, and Grant was much shorter being the youngest.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Now, I know that audio is a little rough to hear, Then he says they were gone. The front door is wide open. And he hears later that day or at some point that day for gunshots. OK, but that doesn't mean anything because he said he heard gunshots all the time, right? Right. No, that's that's totally accurate.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
But later in that same interview, Hayden says that he saw Harry putting some big like PVC bags in the trunk of his car, which, again, at the time didn't seem weird to him because it's how Harry would transport his satin dresses to other properties he owned. And he said, you know, to be very clear, like, I never saw the children leave the house, which, by the way, I haven't mentioned this yet.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
His house just happens to be within a very easy walking distance of Collier Reserve and Glenelg Beach. Now, Hayden believes that the kids were buried at Harry's factory in what he calls a sandpit. Now, Harry's factory, again, very close to everything we're talking about. It was just a short drive from the beach.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
The resemblance is uncanny. I want to send you this gif. So we took a video that Australia 7 News made, and we made it into a gif. And it is the sketch image, and then it kind of morphs into Harry's picture. Hang on, hang on just a second. You're gonna, you're gonna flip.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
That's what they're thinking. So with that in mind, police actually start their search at the Beaumont's home in hope that the little ones like kind of snuck back in to hide somewhere and wait for mom and dad and wait for them to not be so upset. Now, to be clear, at first, investigators aren't suspicious of Jim or Nancy.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Well, so here's the thing. So Harry was 48 in 1966. So it's a little bit older, but he kept himself in really good shape. And so he actually always looked much younger than he was.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
He's got that like... Identical. High forehead. The hairline's spot on. He does have kind of a long face. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
like accurate one I've ever seen especially for to me you know the sketch has like some prominent features like that forehead and the long face but it also it can be kind of vague but my goodness is it close so we're gonna I'll put this um gif on our Instagram if you guys need to see it you need to see it a crime junkie podcast on Instagram um
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
But despite all of the coincidences so far, the South Australia police declined to get too involved when Alan and Stuart first get in touch. And this is back in like 2007. I mean, Harry's been dead for years at this point. So it's not like they can really arrest him. And they kind of are like, you know, we've got a ton of active cases to work on.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
So according to the Satin Man book, police say that they've already reviewed their evidence and talked to Harry's widow, which was his second wife, and found that she's a dead end. But Alan and Stuart decide to talk to her anyways. Now, she was Harry's housekeeper before they got married and also took care of him after his health started to really decline.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
So she had a front row seat into his weird fetishes. Now, I wasn't able to verify her real name like I could with the other people. So I'll just call her Norma like they do in the book. So Stuart arranges a meeting with Norma, who still lives at the same house in Glenelg. And he goes to talk to her. Now, right away, Norma does two things that he finds odd.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
First, she denies ever talking to the South Australia police. And she brings up the Adelaide Oval disappearances completely unprovoked in relation to the Beaumonts. Now, she's really friendly and welcoming, though, like happy to talk about Harry, happy to show Stuart all over the house. And she takes him in the basement as part of like their tour.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
They just want to cover all their bases to see if this can be resolved quickly. Right. But unfortunately, it can't, since a long and thorough search of the house doesn't turn up any sign of the children. And by now, it's getting dark outside, and Jim and Nancy keep reiterating to police that their kids would not willingly be outside after dark.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And he catches sight of something really strange down there. A little white children's purse. A purse very much like the one Jane Beaumont had the day that she vanished. Oh! So Stuart asks her about the purse without necessarily like mentioning why he's interested or that it's connected to Jane.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And Norma gets like kind of upset and says that, oh, you know, I just bought it at a thrift store, which is kind of weird for a woman her age. Like they kind of point out that she's got like a lot of means. She's pretty wealthy. Like why is she buying a child's purse at a thrift store? So. They tell police about this, but by the time police are alerted and they get to the house. It's not there.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Exactly. Norma claims to have thrown the purse away and it is never seen again.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
But without the purse, though, police are forced to return to seeing Norma as a dead end. Yet again, years pass. Allen and Stewart continue their research. And once The Satin Man is published in 2013, even more people come forward. And once again, this kind of stirs like all of the public interest. It's completely renewed.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And this time, all the renewed interest, like they actually have a person of interest in their sites. And they can maybe now use new technology to try and locate the children. And this new technology reveals something that may finally thaw this cold case.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
The South Australian police use ground penetrating radar technology to search around Harry's old factory in Adelaide, the one that Hayden thought that he had buried the kids at. The search, according to Nigel Hunt for the Advertiser newspaper, turns up an anomaly in the soil, which can indicate that it's moved or that something or someone is buried there.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
So armed with that precise location, police now get involved and they excavate a one square meter space in search of anything to definitively tie Harry to the Beaumont children. But like so many times before, this dig turns up nothing.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Yeah. Oh, yeah. So they're actually at the time that this happened, they're still alive and still in Adelaide. And in fact, that's actually one of the reasons that police really start looking into Harry as a suspect, because they want to give Jim and Nancy some closure after all of these years of waiting for the truth. And...
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
So investigators start mobilizing more local resources to widen the search. In order to do that, the Adelaide police send five boats from the Sea and Rescue Squadron out to the St. Vincent Gulf to shine their bright lights across the dark waters in hopes of spotting something. But over and over again, their light just flashes on still dark water. They come up with nothing.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Truth is kind of an odd thing, though, because even when it's hidden in the darkest family secrets, like those of a man like Harry, it begins to come out eventually. So the allegations of his horrific sexual deviancy take on a new life in January 2018 when Australian TV premieres a new feature called Seven News Investigates the Beaumont Children, What Really Happened?
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And a woman who chooses to remain anonymous identifies Harry as the man who brutally raped her in 1979 when she was just 14 years old. At the time, she was living with her family right near Harry's factory, and she kept quiet for the same reason as Hayden and so many other sexual assault victims. She was shameful about what happened.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
She had a fear of him, maybe a fear that no one would believe her. But again, since Harry's dead and all the physical evidence of sexual assault is long gone, there's nothing for police to investigate. Really, her story just kind of corroborates that he wasn't a good guy. But this same 7 News documentary does bring forward something that they can look into. Because a man named David...
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
who was a teenager back in 66 when the Beaumonts disappeared, comes forward and tells the investigators or producers of this show that once he did a unique job for Harry. David says Harry hired him and his older brother Robin to dig a hole at the Castelloy grounds behind the factory during that long Australia Day weekend, just days after Jane, Arna, and Grant Beaumont had vanished.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Now, according to David, the hole was about seven yards long, about one yard wide, and about as deep as a young boy is tall. And he said it was located away from where that 2013 dig had taken place. Now, they didn't think anything weird of this job at the time because they had no reason to doubt Harry's, like, you know, again, he's this nice upstanding citizen.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
He was paying them good money for their labor. But David said it wasn't until decades later when he saw that Harry was on the news that he finally made the connection to the Beaumont children. So armed with this fresh information as well as a fresh location to search, police, archaeologists, and forensic experts returned to the old Castaway factory.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Melinda McMillan wrote for Newcastle Star in 2018 about the search team who had basically what they found was more soil anomalies right near where David said he and Robin had dug back in 66, which makes sense because, you know, anomalies can show anything, even digging. And we know they dug there.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
So it's not a lot up front, but it's at least enough to spark yet another excavation. And before the dig, police officially name Harry as a suspect in the disappearance of the Beaumont children. So on February 2nd, 2018, the second dig at Castelloy begins. But it's called off after less than 12 hours when investigators turn up nothing but some old animal bones.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Yeah, exactly. And especially with this, like, mountain or at least a hill of circumstantial evidence, I think Harry is still a fantastic suspect. And I don't think that they've removed him from their suspect list. I have no doubt that he absolutely was a sadistic pedophile during his lifetime, and the scars that he left on his victims are clear.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
But who knows if we'll ever get a 100% clear answer about his possible involvement with the Beaumonts. Like, police still believe that the Adelaide Oval disappearances are connected to the Beaumont kids. So if Harry's responsible for one, it's totally possible that he's connected to the other. But so much time has passed.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Memories fade and many of the people who encountered him, including Hayden and Angela, are now deceased. Nancy Beaumont herself passed away just a little bit ago on September 16th of 2019 in Adelaide at age 92.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
With more people getting involved in all this activity, the local media now starts noticing what's going on. They're thinking like, hey, something is happening. And a bulletin goes out at about 10 o'clock that evening. Now, mind you, this is like a full 12 hours since the kids got on that bus that morning.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And her husband, the Beaumont's father, Jim, he's actually still alive, presumably still carrying the hope that however unlikely it might be after all this time, he might still learn the truth about what really happened to Jane, Arna, and Grant on that fateful day. Okay, so since the release of that episode in January of 2020, Jim Beaumont has passed away.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
He died in April of 2023 at the age of 97, never knowing what happened to his three kids. But just because he's gone doesn't mean that Jane, Arna, or Grant don't have advocates. And when those advocates recently heard that the property where the person of interest, Harry Phipps' factory, used to be was going to get developed...
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
they were quick to jump on this and tell the government, like, now is the time to do a renewed search of this area. Not only the best time, but possibly the last time they even can. Truly. Like, whatever is going to go in there will probably make it hard, if not impossible, to ever search this area again. But it is a good news, bad news situation. Like, so bad news, never again.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Good news is that the demolition they're having to do to prepare to put this land up for sale also makes this, like, the best chance that they've ever gotten to search this place really thoroughly. So this is all happening quick. Like this search was just announced at the top of February 2025, and it is going to be happening February 22nd.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And the dig is focused on three areas, two of which were the subjects of the previous searches back in 2013 and then again in 2018. And the location of the third area isn't exactly clear at this point, but it's stemming from an investigation by this TV show called The Hunters that documents high profile Australian crimes.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
I guess they have a docuseries about the Beaumonts coming out actually just the day after the dig on February 23rd. So keep an eye out for that. And I guess this third dig location is coming out of the investigation that they did. So it sounds like maybe they're unearthing something new. Now, this dig, importantly, is also going to go deeper and wider than the previous digs have.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
According to an article from the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, a member of parliament named Frank Pangelo is organizing the search. And he says that the ground is like one to two meters or like three to six and a half feet higher than it was back in 1966, just to like the amount of fill that's been added over the years.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And they push this bulletin out to the evening TV, radio, asking anyone if they've seen the missing kids. While the news of the missing children is being broadcast, police are still hard at work at Glenelg. The Sydney Morning Herald reported in 1966 that police even had aqualung divers go into the Glenelg boat marina to search underwater.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Neither. So it's being done by a private firm with a couple of forensic archaeologists and some university students. But I will say the police are aware of the search. They're going to be supervising it just in case they do find anything. We don't like lose chain of custody.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And in the event that they find something, the search will then stop and then like the official investigators will pick it up.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Now, it's worth noting that the police don't think that this area that they're digging is supported by the evidence that they have. So I don't know what that means. I don't know what it is they have that they're saying like, no, definitely not.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
I'm gonna be really curious to watch this new docuseries, figure out what has made them so confident in this area again, but particularly in this like new place there.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And I'm going to be all over the news outlets over the next few days seeing if anything turns up. Now, you guys, is the time to like set your Google alerts like I know Brit does. So that's the fast and dirty, you guys. I hope you enjoyed this update. Please make sure to reach out to us on social to tell us if you want more like this.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And we'll be back Monday with your regularly scheduled programming.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
But the water was like super murky and there was like almost little to no visibility. But despite the setbacks, they continue all through the night on land, in sea, even checking storm drains that flush out into the ocean. And they also even have people traversing up and down the rocky coastline looking for cave-ins and landslides anywhere that the kids could possibly be.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
But listen, we got to where we are for a reason. The story is still a good one. So please enjoy this blast from the past. And at the end, we're going to jump back in and tell you the big news that is happening this week. Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And since yesterday was Australia Day, for our wonderful listeners down under... Oh, let's not do that.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
At this point, their thinking is starting to change. They no longer think the kids are hiding, but now they start to wonder if maybe the kids got into some kind of accident. You know, with kid logic, when you're doing something, you're going on a strange adventure, so you go into a cave or someone will bury you in sand and it's
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Yeah. So they're thinking, like, if Jane, Arna, and Grant are maybe stuck somewhere and they can't get out, like, time is of the essence. Plus, Arna and Grant aren't great swimmers. And so they're thinking, gosh, they could have gotten carried out. Maybe Jane went. She was a strong swimmer to try and, like, rescue them. But she failed. And they, like, have all the more reason to find them quickly.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Yeah. So according to the book, The Satin Man, police start off the investigation with three main scenarios in mind about what could have happened. Either A, the kids drown, B, they ran away, or C, that they've been kidnapped. Now, drowning gets ruled out pretty fast because the sea had been calm the day before when the kids disappeared.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And the beach had plenty of lifeguards who everyone assumed would have noticed if three children like went in the water and were getting swept away. Plus, none of the Beaumont's belongings were found left on shore, which is what you would expect to see if they had like gone into the ocean and then never come out. So drowning gets ruled out pretty quickly.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And so does the idea of the three kids just running away like they're happy kids. There's nothing in their past behavior to suggest that they would leave home like that. So police have to quickly set that idea aside as well. And since the kids aren't thought to have run away and they aren't thought to have drowned, that leaves investigators with the most frightening prospect of all.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
That someone was able to take not one, but all three young children from a crowded area in broad daylight.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
So, yes, and this is where all of the media attention really comes in handy, because not only does that media attention lead to the biggest volunteer mobilization in Australian history, like Sarah Garcia reported for the Australian Broadcasting Corporation in 2018, but it also means that information starts flooding into police stations.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Now, while some of these so-called tips are hoaxes, some of them are from credible witnesses. And coupled with what police know from Jim and Nancy, a picture of the kids' last movements really starts to appear, including some information about a person who may hold the key to the entire investigation.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Numerous witnesses who were on or near Glenelg Beach on the day that the kids disappear tell investigators about seeing the Beaumont children playing with an unidentified man. Now, these statements and the South Australian's police incident report place the children and their mysterious companion at a place called Collie Reserve Park right near the beach before they disappeared.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
There are also people who just saw the children alone. So in that book, Searching for the Beaumont Children, it said that the bus driver who picked them up remembered them getting on the bus at about 10 o'clock. Now, there's this guy named Tom, who's the local postman, and he remembered saying hello to little Grant, who greeted him back and seemed totally happy and fine.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And initially, Tom couldn't remember if he saw them in the morning or the afternoon. But police end up checking his shift schedule and, like, his records and determined that he had to have seen them in the morning based on when Tom was working. And they put that sighting at around 10.15, right when he starts his shift.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Then one of Jane's classmates reports seeing the siblings that morning at about 11.15. Now, all of those sightings so far are just of the kids. After this, though, other witnesses come forward who say they saw the children with this unidentified man. Now, there are three separate witnesses who saw them together. There is a man who was in town to watch the cricket match.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
I think we did that in the fan club once where we tried to do Australian accents. It's really bad, you guys. But anyways, we wanted to celebrate by telling you about one of the most infamous and enduring mysteries in Australian history. But before we tell you our story, though, we want to send our thoughts to everyone in Australia during this horrific brush fire season.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
There was a middle-aged woman. And then there was this 74-year-old woman. And together, they help police, like, piece together the activities of the kids later in the day. Now, as far as police can put together, it seems that the 74-year-old woman likely was the first to see the kids together with this man. She says that she saw them sometime between 11 and 11.30 in the morning.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And then all three of the witnesses give police a description of what this stranger looks like.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
According to this article I found called The Disappearance of the Beaumont Children, Murder and Misadventure, and it's on the Crime Traveler's website, all three witnesses described the man as being in his mid to late 30s, tall and tanned with a long, thin face and light brown hair that was neat and parted to one side.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
But interestingly, the middle-aged woman tells police that she did more than just see the man. She actually spoke to him. Melbourne's The Age newspaper reported in early February of 66 that this man approached her at Glenelg Beach a little bit before noon and he was with the three kids.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And he approached her telling her that their money had been stolen and asking her if she'd seen anyone like rummaging through their things because she was like sitting right near their stuff. So if anything had happened, she would have likely seen it. Now, she didn't see anything. She doesn't remember anything. They didn't talk anymore beyond this.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
But she was able to tell police that based on his accent, he was definitely Australian. They have the 74-year-old woman actually sit down with a sketch artist from a local newspaper and describe the man, resulting in this portrait of a strange man that police are now desperate to locate. And here, Brett, I am actually going to send you a picture of the sketch that they came up with.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
So according to the Age newspaper, people described seeing this man, quote, frolicking with the kids before noon, which sounds to me like he was kind of like playing with them. Everyone was having a good time. You know, I think it's completely different from what we might imagine of him just like shoving them in a car or forcibly taking them.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And what we have from this lady, too, about him like coming up and asking about the money, it sounds like the kids were interacting with him and probably felt safe, like they could trust him.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Now, what's super interesting is that since they appear to be enjoying themselves with this stranger, I find it strange that the last credible sighting of the children actually doesn't include him. So there was a staff member at a bakery in Glenelg, and this bakery was in very easy walking distance from both the beach and the Colley Reserve.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
And this person tells police that the three kids came in to buy themselves some lunch around midday. And this in itself isn't unusual since Jane, Arna, and Grant had been to this very shop before and they were recognized by the staff. What is weird is how they bought their food because the shopkeeper tells police that the three kids paid with a one-pound note. Okay. What's so special about that?
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
The Australian Red Cross is on the front lines of disaster relief, and we encourage everyone to donate and support their efforts like we are doing. You can find a link on our website or you can go to redcross.org.au. Now, today's story is one of those cases that never really lets go of a country's national imagination, kind of like JonBenet Ramsey for us here in the U.S.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Well, a one-pound note was a lot of money back in 66, especially for young kids to have. But not only that, police knew from Nancy that she only gave Jane eight shillings and six pence to cover their lunches and bus fare. All of that was in coins.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Plus, remember how this man said that their money had just been stolen? Like, police have to consider... What if that was a lie? What if he stole Jane's money and then gave her this money?
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
So possibly to earn their confidence? Like this is a widely used tactic for manipulators, like getting a victim to rely on you for something or making them feel like you helped them and that maybe they owe you or it puts them at ease. Right.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
Learning about the sighting of this man and even the last sighting without him, but this one pound note, is making police more sure than ever that the children have been kidnapped. And likely, the three kids went away with this man willingly, unknowing of his true intentions.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
So once they have this sketch from that woman, this goes out to all of the newspapers all over Australia while police in Adelaide search for their records of sex offenders in the area to see if maybe any of them match witness descriptions. But here's the thing. Of all of the sex offenders in the area, and listen, there's always more than you expect.
Crime Junkie
UPDATE: Beaumont Children
I would encourage people to just take a look at their own neighborhood. I think you would be surprised how But of all of the sex offenders listed in the area, they don't come up with anyone that's a good match or makes for a good lead. Now, in the meantime, while all of this is going on, the searches are still going on as well.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
But police are sure that this is a homicide case, especially once the blood sample taken from Eric's mattress is determined to be Leslie's blood.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Now, based on the evidence that they gather, police seek warrants for Eric's arrest on one count of open murder and destroying and concealing evidence, and for Jose on charges of destroying and concealing evidence, along with harboring, concealing, or aiding a felony offender.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Now, they release Eric and Jose's photos to the public, officially naming Eric as their main suspect in the case, along with a license plate number for his truck. And that is when police get a tip from California. They learn that after dumping Leslie's body, Eric and Jose drove to California and spent the night with relatives.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Now, there's conflicting reports on what exactly happened next, because one place I found says that Eric left his truck with a cousin who then drove him and Jose across the border. Another place says that Eric's relatives refused to help him. But either way, it seems like Eric and Jose cross the border and make it into Mexico.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
But they do leave the truck behind because that's actually found at the border. So while police work to hunt their fugitives down in another country now, they still work stateside to kind of build their case against Eric and Jose for when they get them back. And by now, they've gotten access to Eric's cell phone records and they see this thing that ends up being really important.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
They see that he called someone from the Valley of the Fire area on the morning of the 29th. So police go question that person, who is a friend of Eric's, and what he shares with them is straight up full body chills. This friend got a call from Eric at around 8 a.m. that morning, and Eric was straight up frantic. He's telling him he needed help right away.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
This friend was like, OK, well, like, I mean, what do you need, man? And Eric's like, do you remember that favor I asked you to do?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
So that's the thing. This favor wasn't like a direct ask. And this was like weeks before Leslie died. But the friend did remember. And so I guess what happened was that Eric and his brother had run into this guy on his lunch break and they sat down at his table and Eric was drunk, like pretty gone.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And to be fair, I don't know exactly what time of day this was, like a lunch break might not necessarily be at noon, whatever. But either way, Eric and his friend are talking and he asked this friend if he would do him a favor if he ever needed it. And the friend's like, OK, yeah, sure, like whatever. And then they move on. That's it? That's it. So, again, it didn't seem ominous then, whatever.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And that's just how they like it, because Leslie is the heart, soul, and backbone of the house, the one who makes sure everyone is fed and safe. But on August 28, 2020, Leslie needed a night out. According to an episode of In Pursuit with John Walsh about the case, her mom tells her she shouldn't leave the house that night. It's already too late by the time she's even asking.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
But fast forward to this morning on the 29th, and Eric is trying to call in that favor, like, out of nowhere. And this friend asked him, okay, like, well, then what do you need, man? And Eric's like, I need you to bring me gas. And the friend's like, OK, why do you need someone to bring you gas? Like, just go find a gas station. Right. But Eric starts getting really cagey.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
He's like avoiding the question. So his friend asked him a few more times, like, why do you need me to go do this? And finally, Eric said, I don't want to be seen on camera getting the gas, which is like all the red flags. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
So this friend asked Eric where he was. He's like asking this a few times. And Eric admitted that he's in Utah. And then the friend asked him one more time, okay, like, but why are you needing the gas? And then Eric just went straight cold and said, I killed a bitch. And what struck this friend wasn't even what he said, the confession of it all. It was just how calm Eric was when he said it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And for that reason, the friend honestly at first didn't believe him. But Eric was dead serious and he said it again. And this time he added that the body was in the backseat of his truck. And at this point, the friend wasn't sure what to believe, but he was freaked out enough to tell Eric that he wasn't going to help him out and he needed to basically get off the phone.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
But Eric wouldn't stop asking him to come. So this friend asked him point blank, like, if this is true, why are you even like telling me? Why are you risking telling anyone that this happened? And Eric said there is no risk because he had a burner phone. But this friend was like, listen, you messed up by telling me all of this. And that is when Eric finally hung up on him.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Yeah, it seems like it. I don't know why. I'm going to assume it's because he was afraid of being implicated somehow, or I don't know if he really didn't believe him.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
I know, I know. But, I mean, at this point, with Eric and Jose still in Mexico, this is all speculation. So using this information, police work with federal and international partners to bring Eric and Jose to justice abroad. And almost five months after Leslie's death, police get an unexpected call.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Clark County investigators find out that on January 19th, 2021, Jose turned himself in to border protection officials. So he gets extradited back to Clark County. And when he's back in Vegas in an interrogation room, he gives authorities a truly unbelievable version of events. Basically, he says that on August 29th, Eric came home and he was acting pretty weird.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
So Jose decided out of the blue that they should just take this father-son trip to Mexico because his son's acting weird.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Oh, no. He's telling them they just went on a spur of the moment little trip together. Because, listen, he doesn't know about all of the footage that police have. So they let him just, like, tell this lie. And they're like, OK, like, is that your final answer? Cool. Now, here, take a look real quick at what we have.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
It's like inching up on midnight. And every parent knows nothing good happens after midnight. But every parent also knows that the kids they make those rules for think that they know better. So Leslie decides that she's going to go out anyways.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And when he sees that they have video of him helping Eric drag Leslie's body out of the house, that's when he lets up. And he then starts telling another story. He says that he was up early that morning in the garage getting ready to take his wife to church when he hears Eric pull up to the house, get out of the car with someone else. Of course, we know that someone else is Leslie.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Now, he says he hears them go upstairs and he just kept working or doing whatever he's doing in the garage. And then about 30 minutes later, he says Eric comes downstairs shirtless, dragging Leslie's body down on sheets behind him. He's freaking out, Eric is, saying that he had to do something with the body, but he refused to tell Jose what happened.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
So Jose decided that they needed to get Leslie's body out of the house before the rest of the family woke up so that they wouldn't be implicated.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Well, according to Leslie's family, that's what it looked like to them. But Jose insisted that they weren't destroying evidence. And he even tried to say that the reason he hosed down the driveway, which they have video of him doing, was because after helping Eric put Leslie's body in the trunk, he was like, oh, I remember about this HOA letter I got about our yard needing to be cleaned.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
So he's like, perfect time to do it since I've got nothing else to do, which is like, roll your eyes.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
That's a great question because they had lots of quality father-son time on that run or that little trip they talk about, right? But apparently, or at least according to Jose, Eric refused to give him any details. All he hinted at was that Leslie was drinking a lot that night and she possibly overdosed.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
He says that when he saw Leslie lying on the bed sheet, he didn't notice any injuries on her body or even any blood or anything suspicious on the sheets. But he does say that she was only dressed in a shirt and her underwear were pulled on awkwardly.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
She's been DMing with one of her longtime friends, Eric, and around midnight, she leaves with him to go up to like, you know, hit up some of the nightlife in town. And while most places would be starting to close down in like a couple of hours, they don't live in most places. They live in Las Vegas.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
So yes and yes. So to answer the first question, toxicology tests were delayed because of the COVID backlog. And if they were ever completed, I actually haven't seen the results reported on. In this kind of cases we work, this is like one of the newer ones. I just saw a comment from the coroner's office saying that there aren't any tests still being
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
So I don't know whether or not they've ruled anything in, out, whatever. So the other thing, so Jose says Eric left without telling him when he would be back. He just said that he was going to, quote, destroy the body. So Jose went to his daughter's apartment and Eric showed up there that afternoon acting weird. than even when he left, if that's possible.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
He was like making threats about taking his own life or killing Jose. Then he was rambling about people who were going to kill him and then the rest of their family. And when Jose heard this, he decided that it's going to be best for everyone if he got Eric out of the house, away from the family.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And so that's when he says he decided to gather all the money he could from the house, drove Eric to California and then into Mexico.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Well, Jose claims that they got into Mexico by bus. But then when Mexican federal agents boarded the bus to, like, run checks, they both panicked and split up. So his story is that he hasn't seen Eric since. Liar. Yeah. And apparently he's like, I have no idea where he's at now. So, like, I'm turning myself in, but, like, haven't seen my son pretty much since we left.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
So police are still looking for Eric when a grand jury indicts him and Jose in February of 2021. A judge issues an arrest warrant for Eric and they set Jose's bail at $100,000. By June, Eric is still in the wind and Jose pleads guilty to destruction of evidence and accessory to murder. He says he takes responsibility for what he did and he apologizes for his actions.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And Jose does end up getting the maximum sentence of two years in prison, which is a little bit insane. But if that makes you mad, do you want me to get your blood like fully boiling?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
He got released after only eight months. What? Even though there is no early release stipulation in his sentence. I guess he got credit for some programs he did in prison and like just got out early.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
For a long time. I mean, like between 10 and 15 years that their families knew each other. So to your point too, right? Like your son comes down with a body and it's like another girl you know. You know her family.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
I mean, she's 22. And if it was an accident, why are you covering this up? Like call the police like you said. It is unbelievable. Now, after Jose was sentenced, the DA's office called on lawmakers to escalate these kinds of crimes from misdemeanors to felonies because it's a misdemeanor.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Now, all of this makes Leslie's older sister, Corelli, nervous. She is actually out of the house, but she's been in contact with Leslie the whole night, and she's not feeling great about Leslie going out alone with Eric. But based on an article by Kathleen Newberg for the Las Vegas Review-Journal,
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
But it's too late for Leslie and her family who feel like justice hasn't been done for her, especially because at this point, when Jose's going through all this, like Eric is still free. By November 2023, he's still at large. And police end up posting him as the focus of a Fugitive Friday social media campaign that they do.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
But weirdly, and I don't know exactly why this is, the flyer says that he's wanted for a probation violation and it doesn't mention murder at all. So I don't know if, like, they didn't want to scare people. I don't know if they thought people would turn him in more easily. If it was a probation violation, I don't know. I don't know.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
It also says that Eric was last seen in Durango, Mexico, but I don't know how they know that. There's no like specific date for that sighting either, but clearly they're like getting some kind of insight or tips or whatever. So 2024 rolls in. This year that we're recording this, January, February, March, the summer starts to pass.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And then on July 30th, 2024, police announce that Eric's arrested in Mexico after years of working with federal and international agencies to track him down. And right now, Eric is in custody while the extradition process plays out. Like, as we speak. How long will that take? It's based on the U.S. 's treaty with Mexico, and it can be a pretty complicated process. Like, the U.S.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
has to put in a request through its diplomatic channels, and then the Mexican foreign ministry has to review the case and the evidence to make a decision. And it can take anywhere from a few months to quite literally years. But I mean, what I know is the U.S. and Mexico do have a good working relationship on this.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Like a few hundred criminals have been extradited from Mexico in the last decade or so. But there's a little bit of a wrinkle to all of this. So to extradite someone to the U.S. from Mexico, the U.S. has to agree not to seek the death penalty or even a life sentence because those punishments are unconstitutional in Mexico where he is.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
I don't know. Like, to what you said earlier, there's, like, something about this that does feel planned, right? The burner phone, the asking for this favor, like, having someone you can call. Like, was it always about Leslie? Would he have done this to someone else? Did he do this to someone else? Yeah. Did he already know how to do this? Right. Ugh.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
I mean, this case is such a strong reminder of our crime junkie rules like you never really know anyone ever. And you should always trust your gut because Corelli remembers that there was always something off to her about the way Eric acted with her sister Leslie. Like he was obsessed with her.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Leslie is more of the rule follower of the two, always making sure to text their parents while she's out. So what happens is Leslie agrees to text Corelli throughout the night to let her know where she is, what she's doing, just so someone in the family, like, knows she's okay and has tabs on her. Like, this is like a little bit of a crime junkie thing, right? Right. Sister pact is made.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
But of course, just because someone acts a little strange, that doesn't mean you'd believe they were capable of murder, especially when you have a close relationship with them and like their whole family. And Leslie not only trusted Eric, she trusted his family who were in the house the morning Eric did something or whenever whatever happened happened.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
But that whole family betrayed that trust, especially Jose. In Nevada, a person directly related to an offender like a parent can't be charged as an accessory to the crime, even though Jose got the maximum sentence the state allows. Leslie's case is inspiring lawmakers to actually take a second look at those existing laws, which is at least like one bright spot that's coming out of this.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
The prosecutor's office is going to still have to take this to trial if and when Eric does return to the U.S. And I'm sure they are still trying to build as strong of a case as possible. So if you or someone you know has information about Leslie Palacios' case, please contact the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department Homicide at 702-828-3521.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Or if you want to remain anonymous, you can call Crime Stoppers at 702-385-5555. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And so far, Leslie's keeping up with her end of the bargain. Corelli stays up late texting with her sister. She even sees Leslie post some photos from the bars that she's at with Eric on Instagram throughout the course of the night. And she knows Leslie's drinking. I mean, she's told her as much. But she isn't worried about her even getting home because Leslie says that Eric is sober.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
So Leslie keeps her sister posted as they hopped from bar to bar, nothing to write home about or cause concern in any of the messages. But then, at 4.40 in the morning, now it's the 29th, Leslie sends this slightly ominous text message. She tells her sister that she has something she needs to tell her. But she doesn't say what. I know. Corelli texts her back just a minute later to probe.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And right away, that little text bubble comes up, like Leslie is typing back. And then the dots just disappear. So Corelli tries calling her sister, goes straight to voicemail, and she's thinking like, OK, her phone must have just died. She's been out all night. She's been using her phone, texting, whatever. She's going to text me and tell me what happened in the morning. And so she falls asleep.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
But she doesn't get a good night's rest because just a few hours later, she finally does hear from someone. But it's not her sister, Leslie. It's her mom asking, where is your sister? Now, Corelli's mind goes right to that last text message that she got. I have something to tell you. There still aren't any more messages from Leslie.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And when she tries to call Leslie again, her phone is still going straight to voicemail. Now, hours later. So Corelli rushes home and admits to her mom that Leslie did go out that night. She knew about it. But before they jump to any kind of worst case scenarios, one of the first things Corelli does is try to get in touch with Eric's sister to see if Leslie's at their house.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Right. No. So like I said, they knew each other, but their families have actually known each other for years from church. And Eric still lives at his home with his parents and siblings, too, just down the street from Leslie and her family. So Coralie's probably thinking, OK, Leslie stayed over there with them. She was probably drinking. She probably fell asleep, overslept, whatever.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
She feels safe with that family. But when she calls, Eric's sister doesn't answer to ease her worries. So by around 10 a.m., Corelli and her mom decide to just drive over to their house to see what's going on. And at first, they knock on the door. No one answers, which is odd because Eric has this big family. Someone surely has to be home.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
But they decide to just leave and come back an hour later at around 11. And this time, when they pull up to Eric's driveway, they see something stranger than they ever expected. Eric's mom and sisters are, like, moving furniture and cleaning supplies out of the house as they roll up. Uh, no. I know. And listen, Leslie's family still doesn't jump to any terrible conclusions.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Now, Corelli immediately starts searching. She's calling hospitals. She's trying to reach anyone she can who might know where Leslie is, you know, friends of hers, people who might have run into her, but she gets nothing. And so she keeps trying to call Eric, too. But it sounds like his phone is going to voicemail or turned off or she knows that somehow, like she's not getting through to him.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
No ringing, nothing. Corelli even tries to track down Leslie's phone using Find My iPhone, but it doesn't even show up anywhere. So now she is really worried and she calls the police to report Leslie missing. They tell her to wait, see if Leslie comes back later in the day. Corelli hopes that they're right and Leslie's going to walk through the door any minute.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
But day turns to night and there is still no sign of Leslie. So the next morning, August 30th, she reports Leslie missing again. And this time, police do take the report, but they're still not convinced that she's in danger. Knowing both Eric and Leslie are nowhere to be found, they assume that the two ran away together.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Even though Leslie's family insists that she wouldn't have gone anywhere without telling them. I mean, she was texting her sister the entire night, for God's sake. And by the way, Eric and Leslie weren't dating or anything. Like, Corelli could always tell that Eric had a thing for Leslie, but she didn't feel the same way about him. Like, they were just friends. So...
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
She's like, Leslie's not taking off in his truck and leaving her family for some guy she's not in love with, you know, like head over heels in love with. Right. And where is Eric's truck now? Well, police need to figure that out. So they put in a request that day for Leslie's cell phone records to try and kind of retrace her steps, hopefully find her safe.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
But then on August 31st, police get another call, one that really puzzles them because it's from Eric's mom. And she's calling to report Eric and his dad, Jose, missing. She tells police that Eric came home sometime between 8 and 9 a.m. on August 29th after going out with Leslie and that he was really on edge. And by the afternoon, whatever was bothering Eric was like eating away at him.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And he told his mom he just wanted to leave the house. And he did. Walked right out of the door. His dad went after him. And that was the last, apparently, they saw of both Eric and Jose. So now police are wondering if three people, Leslie, Eric, and Jose, went missing together. Could they all be in danger? And if Eric was at home by morning, then where is Leslie?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Police released Leslie's photo and description to the public, saying that they've ruled out a kidnapping, but they add that Leslie might be in distress or need some kind of medical assistance. And even though her phone is still off and they can't use her cell phone location to figure out where she is, they can at least pull up some historical data and track that path.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Like I said, the one she took the night she went missing, starting from when she left her house. And so using that, they're able to pin down all of the places that she and Eric went to, which allows them to go then collect footage from each place and actually like see her there.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And the story I have for you today is about how a young woman's night out with a trusted family friend turned into a nightmare, leaving her family still searching for answers nearly four years later as the gears of justice finally start to turn. This is the story of Leslie Palacio. Even though Leslie Palacio is 22, she lives at home with her parents and four sisters.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And from that, they can see that Leslie and Eric started the night at a casino. They pull up in Eric's white Ford F-150 truck, and at 1.50 a.m., they leave the casino in the same white truck.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
The two then go to a bar at 2.15, and I can't find any sources that tell us when they left that bar, but police do find footage of Leslie and Eric arriving at a third and final place at around 4.30 in the morning.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And even though she never responded to Corelli's text, footage does show Leslie leaving the bar with Eric at around 550 a.m. So as ominous as those disappearing dots were, police know that nothing happened to her then. Maybe her phone really did just die because she's leaving at 550. And now police need to know whether or not she went back to Eric's house with him that morning or what.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
I mean, it's less than 15 minutes away from the last bar that he and Leslie went to. So what detectives do is they go canvas his neighborhood, asking whether anyone has cameras that point to the Ibarra house. And sure enough, someone does. So police look at that footage and they see Eric's truck pulling up just after 6 a.m. I mean, this is like fitting completely with the timeline.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
He gets out of the driver's seat, walks around, helps Leslie out. She's a little uneasy on her feet from the drinks that night. So he's kind of like holding her up, leading her inside. But she is alive. She's like, you know, walking with him. And he leads her into the house and everything on the street is quiet, but not for long.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
On the neighbor's footage, police see Eric come back out of the house about 30 minutes after he and Leslie went inside. But this time he's not with Leslie. He's with his dad, Jose. And the two of them are dragging something down the driveway, something that is body-shaped and wrapped in bedsheets. And then Leslie is never seen coming out of the house again.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
So Eric and Jose handled what police believe is Leslie's body like she was a piece of furniture, just straight up like shoving her into the passenger side of his truck. And then once she's in, Eric climbs into the driver's seat. He speeds away while his dad hoses down the driveway.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Police still don't know. But they know that they're definitely not missing or in danger. But right now, Leslie is the priority. So if there's even the smallest chance that she might still be alive, they got to find her. They got to get her help like yesterday. So the neighbor's camera footage gives police enough evidence to get a warrant to search the Ibarra house.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And inside, their top concern is what they find in Eric's room because the sheets have been completely stripped from his bed. And they notice this small blood stain on Eric's mattress that they swab and then send to the crime lab. So now police release a second report to the public. And this time they say that they do think foul play played some kind of role in Leslie's disappearance.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And they also turn the case over to the Las Vegas MPD's homicide unit. And it's at this point that Eric and Jose are no longer missing people. Like they're fugitives on the run. But finding them is like looking for a needle in a haystack. So they pull out all the stocks, like pull on all their resources.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And the one that hits is a license plate reader that like pulled on Eric's truck basically like it got flagged or whatever. And so they pull the footage from the reader and they see that Eric went back toward his house at around 10 a.m. on August 29th. Though it doesn't seem like he ever actually went back to his house just like towards that general direction.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
So there seems to be a little bit of conflicting information between Eric's mom's statement to police and then the actual evidence like camera footage. I don't know. But either way. From there, police start working backwards to track his route.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And based on the road that he was driving on, police know that he could only have been coming back from one of two directions, either from the Mount Charleston area or from the Utah-Arizona border. But that's like a freaking huge area for police to search. I mean, hundreds of square miles.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
But detectives get lucky yet again when one of them finds surveillance video from a gas station about 40 miles north of Las Vegas that shows Eric pulling off the freeway toward the Valley of Fire State Park. Now, on that same video, 20 minutes after, they see Eric's truck driving in the opposite direction, this time with mud on the tires.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
So they know that Eric went off the road at some point in those 20 minutes.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
I mean, maybe even less, because I mean, if you assume that he stopped to remove Leslie from the car, you'd have to account for at least a minute or two for him to get out, take her out of the truck. And that's assuming he did nothing to conceal her. You know what I mean? So. Right.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Right. So police time this out and they like got their stopwatches out, whatever, accounting for the time that it would take for him to drive off the road, hide the body, get back in the car, drive away. And even then, they're still working with a lot of desert here. And with that narrow timeline, they start a grid search of the area.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Every single hour counts in this heat because the longer it takes, the more likely it is that evidence could wither away. And it takes until September 9th. That's when police find Leslie's body hidden in a bush about 2,500 feet off of a dirt road. Eric didn't bury her. So after nearly two weeks of exposure to the intense heat, her body is in a very advanced state of decomposition.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
I mean, to the point that she's almost mummified when they find her. And they also notice that Leslie's missing the pants that she had on in all of the security footage that they saw. And they end up finding those jeans in a bush a few feet away from where they found her, along with drag marks showing that Eric must have let her heels drag as he was pulling her into the bush.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
And even though she's still wearing her underwear, like, it's on all wrong. According to a detective's grand jury testimony, her, quote, leg was through the waist hole and then the waist was in a leg hole. Like, so you've got the, you know what I mean?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lesly Palacio from Las Vegas
Yeah. And to me, that seems like evidence that Leslie may have been sexually assaulted, even though an autopsy would struggle to actually find evidence of that because of just how badly decomposed she was. And I mean, because of that, they can't determine a cause of death during her autopsy. So that ends up getting listed as undetermined.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
They completely empty out the dumpster, try to examine anything that they can still visually see or test. From everything they find, they weren't able to conclusively say that it had actually had anything to do with Karina. But it's something that keeps getting brought up in every single article and every single blog post or Reddit or web sleuths that I read on this.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Everyone refers back to that dumpster fire and just said it's really suspicious. But since they couldn't link anything to them, they continue to look at other suspects. And they start with that homeless man that she was dancing and talking to. They find that his name is Juan Polo and they quickly rule him out. He's just a local guy. He had plenty of alibis. People saw him all the time.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
He wouldn't even have anywhere to take a body and dismember it, even if he wanted to. So they decide that their next best bet is to track down that man and his dog. Superman dog. Yes. Because also you are probably a serial killer if you're walking around in Boston at 3 a.m. with a matching shirt with your dog. I mean, I am all about dogs, but it's a little bit strange, no?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Okay, here, my problem is not with the matching Superman shirts. The 3am and the matching shirts. So they actually find this guy because he stands out like a sore thumb. His name is Herb Whitten. And he actually lives in Andover, Massachusetts, which is 32 minutes north of Boston.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
I encourage you to get involved with your local Crime Stoppers, and if you want more information on Crime Stoppers of Central Indiana, go to crimetips.org. So, Britt, I am super excited because I think I might have found a case that you have never heard about.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Right. And whoever overheard them actually overheard them correctly. He was a man who was from like somewhere north. And frequently he would say would like go walk his dog downtown. But it seems super weird to drive 30 minutes at 3 a.m. to walk your dog and like talk to a bunch of really drunk people because that's the only people who are walking the streets at 3 a.m.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Well, police end up ruling him out because they say that he got a speeding ticket the same night that she was last seen. So they say this rules him out because he was obviously headed back to Anover. He was in his car. He couldn't have been murdering her.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
But what I question is if the police also say that she could have been alive for up to 24 hours after she was last seen, that doesn't mean that he had to be killing her right at that time that he was getting a speeding ticket. Did they search his car? I mean, I've never gotten a speeding ticket.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
I have so many questions, but it's 1996 and there are no answers. Oh, God. So yeah, so they said the police, I'm hoping they know more than me, but they completely ruled him out because of this speeding ticket. Another suspect that pops up is John Zwiz. I'm not really sure why he came up, but people love talking about him. He lived really close to where her body was found.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
He's just an odd duck that I think had had a couple of run-ins with the law. Nothing super serious. He's in this very dark grunge band. And shortly after her murder, he released a song and people often quote the lyrics when they're talking about him. Part of the song goes, I've got an old man's car. I've got a jazz guitar. I've got a tab at Zanzibar. Tonight, that's where I'll be.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
And a lot of people refer to this because it came out shortly after she was murdered. And they think it's just a nod to the fact that maybe he was there that night and he had something to do with it. But outside of these lyrics, there's been no other kind of confession and police couldn't link him to it in any way.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
There's brief talk of a man named Eugene McCollum, who in 2000 killed and decapitated a prostitute and a man from East Boston. A lot of people like to link him to the case just because of his decapitation. Obviously, he's He's OK with murdering people. He's OK with severing bodies. But police again say that he was a suspect for a long time.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
But after he was caught for these other murders, went to court, was tried and convicted, they said that they're not bringing any other charges and they don't consider him a suspect in the case anymore. And unfortunately, the police didn't feel the need to share with the public why. And that's literally the only information we have on him.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
There's really random stuff connected to this case as well, which, again, I totally believe is unrelated, but just what are the odds? So in the same building as where the dumpster where her body was found, there's kind of a famous case, this man named Rafi Kokadikian. He was accused of killing his friend in the desert years later.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Him and his friend went on a camping trip and they got lost and really dehydrated. And he said that he had killed his friend as like a mercy killing. But after they tested the body, they found that he really wasn't that dehydrated. So there's all this speculation around that. He's actually in prison now for that crime. Totally. I mean, not the same crime at all.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
But again, just super weird that he was there at the time and then murders his friend later. I mean, it's just one of those things that, again, people bring up.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Bizarre coincidence. Right. Well, the case kind of stalls out at this point. They've kind of run out of suspects. There's nowhere to go. They still don't even have a crime scene. And about one year after her murder, Herb Whitman, our dog-loving friend, commits suicide.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
And there's no record I can find online about any kind of suicide note or reason he left or whether or not he had a history with depression. But a lot of people are saying, okay...
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Right. It's total admission of guilt. He couldn't live with what he did and he just had to do that. But police still say no go. They wouldn't look into it any further. They said he was just a disturbed man. He was never a suspect. And the case goes back to being cold. They try and bring in the FBI agents.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
And the FBI do their thing and try and create a profile of someone who would do a crime like this. But the problem is it's 1996. They have nothing to work with except for eyewitness testimony, which we know is super unreliable. They have no security footage. They have no phone records, no really computer records.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
If this happened today, I mean, they would have footage probably outside of the bar. They would have all the text messages between her and her friends, not only the day of, but leading up to the event.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Right. Again, briefly, it gets mentioned, like, in a couple of news stories where the reporter's like, and the police say that they looked into the officer she was dating and he's totally cleared.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Right. But they don't give any kind of alibi or anything like that, which, again, they haven't done with a ton of people. They gave Herb Whitman's alibi, which makes me think he was a very serious suspect.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
But what I try and remember, this is Boston in 1996. Right. They were notoriously corrupt then. Hot mess. Hot mess. Right. So nothing was below them. They had no problem. Like if they thought someone did it, just confirming their suspicions and building evidence around that they had no problem protecting their own.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
So while this guy was literally immediately ruled out, there's not a whole lot of faith that I have in that. The case is really dead at this point. I mean, I've laid out all the suspects for you. There's nobody at this point who has come forward with any new information. They still, to this day, have no idea where the crime scene was. But the strangest thing.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
So her employer, remember that was Frank and Susan. Susan's a painter. And I found her website. No. Yes, no.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Kind of. So maybe. No, I don't know. So the website is SusanNichter, S-U-S-A-N-N-I-C-H-T-E-R.com. And she has like a gallery of all of her paintings. And she has a couple that are just super disturbing. There is one in the Never Been Seen exhibit where it's called Carried Across. And it's this blue painting of what looks like a man holding the body of a naked woman kind of upside down.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
And she looks unconscious or dead. He looks just totally shocked and surprised. And then in the shadows, there looks to be like another person, I assume a woman, but it could be a man, who's like caressing the man's head, like telling him it's going to be okay.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
There is another one under current events. And it's the second picture. It's called Messenger, which is also really strange. So, yeah, it's it's a girl who actually looks a lot like. So the other one was all in blue. This one is in full color. And it's a girl who looks a lot like Karina. She has blonde hair. She's in a blue dress. And it looks like she is pushing away a man with wings.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
It never happens. Tell me, have you heard about the murder of Karina Homer?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
And I have never seen a picture of Frank Rapp. I couldn't find one. I have no idea if this is what he looks like. But it's a man with like very small spectacle glasses and an orange hat who appears to be running towards her and she's pushing him away. And he's got something in his hands. But can you tell what that is, Brittany?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Other than it just looks like a girl who looks like Karina pushing away a man because he's coming at her unwontedly. Again, I all of this is crazy speculation. There's a lot of her paintings. If you guys want to go through the site, we'll post a link to her website on ours that are really dark and disturbing and disturbing. You know, you could take this one of two ways.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Either she's painting about what she knows and something happened and it's this like deep, dark secret that she's finding a way to express. But also whether or not they had anything to do with it. It happened to her. You know what I mean? It was her family.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Right. It was something that was like an experience within her life that I'm sure played heavily into her own experience. And so that might just be something that she continues to replay and try and work out and reason in her own head. But still super creepy.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Yeah. So Frank and Susan have just gone on. Obviously, they're living their life. She's still painting. He's a photographer. Mr. Whitman's dead. But everyone's just kind of gone on and forgotten about Karina. And it's a totally cold case. I don't know if anyone's going to ever go back and reinvestigate.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
I think there's probably a lot that could be done knowing what we know now about how corrupt police were back then. I wonder if a fresh take or a fresh look at the case wouldn't bring about something a little bit new or if they wouldn't want to because maybe there's something that they were covering up. I don't know. But unfortunately, Karina's family is still in Sweden.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
They still have no answers. And I can't imagine being in another country and having something this horrific happen to your daughter or your sister or your friend. And I'm sure that letter that she sent home just absolutely haunts them. And no one ever figured out what was so terrible that happened to her.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Yeah. And I have to think that most of the time when cold cases are solved, a lot of it has to do with the family pushing and not letting go and being relentless. And that's so hard for her family to do. Not only being far away, but not really understanding our customs or understanding how it works. And I'm sure they're not wanting to make enemies, but also not wanting them to give up. So.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Sorry, guys. Well, let me give you a little bit of junkie medicine because I'm going to tell you this brand new story. All right. So Karina Homer was 19 in the year 1995. And this girl is actually from Sweden. She won the lottery there, which gave her about fifteen hundred dollars. This girl is young. She's beautiful. She's energetic.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
I don't even know if there's, you know, there very well could be some DNA in the case that we just don't know about. So I wonder if they've ever gone back and look and tried to retest. But I have a feeling there wouldn't be knowing that she was completely cleaned before her torso was dumped.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Thank you guys for listening to another episode of Crime Junkie. If you want to interact with us on social media, you can do that Twitter at Crime Junkie Pod or Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.
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MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
We'll see you guys next week. Crime Junkie is an Audiochuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
And she decides that she wants to take this money and start a new life. Try living life in America. She gets a job in the US as an au pair for a couple in Dover, Massachusetts. This is like the first part where this story gets a little bit questionable.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
So part of the reason I had never heard about it and you had never heard about it is there's not a lot on this case, even though I read that it's one of the most famous Boston cases ever. There is little to no information on this. So when I'm looking up how she got this job, I found some really fishy articles, basically from the U.S.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
government saying, you know, we run these agencies that bring au pairs over. They're registered through us. They come in the United States through us. They're working on a visa for au pairs. But she wasn't registered with any of these organizations, none of the normal ones that all of her other au pair friends were.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
So I have no idea how she would have even found out about this job or got connected with this job. The only thing I can maybe assume is that she had friends over here that knew of a family, but she really went about this an odd way. And I don't know if that was just happenstance or if there was some reason she wasn't going through like the proper channels.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Well, she works for a family of Frank Rapp and Susan Nichter. Now, they're married and they have kids, but they both have really prominent careers, which is why they have different names. Frank is a commercial photographer and Susan is a prominent painter. So like very upper middle class.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
She would work the week taking care of the kids and doing housework, helping around. And on the weekends, she would have those off. And her employer, Frank, actually had a loft downtown where he did all of his commercial photography. It's said that she spent a lot of time in that loft on the weekend. She would stay the night there. I don't know if that was just to get out of the house.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
So she wasn't always like with the kids that you're babysitting. I feel like you would just need a break. Right. But I don't know if she had more of a friendship with her employer or if things crossed a line ever. It also seems kind of weird to me. Like, I understand you want to get away, but to be spending nearly every weekend.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
I don't know if he was with her or if the agreement was basically he works there on the weekdays and then she goes there on the weekends just to get away from the family. Again, very little information, but we do know that she would go there frequently. Right. The story of hers really starts the summer of 1996.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
So she had been in America for a few months and she sends a letter home, a couple of letters home actually, telling her family that she's going to be cutting her trip short. She wants to come back to her small town in Sweden. She tells her family the reason is she is really tired of house chores, that she's doing a lot more housework than she originally thought she was going to be doing.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
She's just kind of over it. It's not what she dreamed it would be. And she's just going to be coming home. Well, there's one letter sent to her friend that tells a little bit different story. She tells her friend that she's cutting her trip short, but because something terrible happened.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
And she tells her friend she can't tell her what it is, but she'll tell her when she sees her when she gets home. No. Right. So there is crime junkie lesson number two in life. If you ever have a big secret and something terrible happens, don't wait to tell somebody. You will 100 percent die before you get to tell somebody. Just tell anyone. Write it in a letter and like delay mail it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
i know i know i like as soon as i read that i was like oh no baby girl she sends that letter home and her friend doesn't think anything initially she's like oh you know she's coming home i'm just excited to see her obviously it's nothing that bad she's gonna tell me when she gets home she's not hurt her family hasn't heard anything bad so her friend doesn't alert any kind of you know she doesn't set off any kind of alarms or alert her family
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to Crime Junkie. I am your host, Ashley, as always joined by Britt. Hi, everyone. And this week, I'm super excited. I have a story that I had never even heard about before I started researching. I'm super excited to tell you junkies about it. But first, me and Britt want to tell you a little bit about one of our favorite nonprofits.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Karina seems to be living a pretty normal life in Boston. You know, aside from this letter, everyone thought she was pretty happy. She has friends there, actually lots of other au pair friends who are even from Sweden. So she doesn't feel like too much of an outsider. She has a group that she hangs out with on the weekends. She's even dating. She, for a short time, dated a Boston police officer.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
And then she also dated another man from South Boston in that short time she was there. And from what I can tell, neither relationship was extremely serious, just kind of fleeting. But just to show you that she was comfortable, she was outgoing. And the story really starts for her on Friday, June 21st, 1996. Her and her friends meet up at a downtown loft.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
And again, this is another question I have that can't really be answered. But all they keep mentioning is this downtown loft that they meet up at. I don't know if this is her employer's loft. Yeah, I was going to ask that. Right. If it's one of her friends lofts. I just know that they all meet up and the plan is for them to get together and then they go down to the bar together.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
They all go to Zanzibar, which is in downtown Boston. And it was like the hip bar for young people. A lot of foreign people would go there is what I was reading. She was obviously only 20 at the time, but she had a fake ID. She went out that night wearing a mask. I've heard black or gray shirt with very tight, shiny silver pants.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
So that plays into into account later when we're talking about eyewitnesses seeing her. She wasn't, you know, just wearing all black. I feel like people would remember this girl in super shiny silver pants. But it was 1996. So, I mean, anyone could have been running around in silver pants. The 90s, though. Yes, true, true. So here's what we know for sure happened that night.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
She goes in with her friends. She's having a great time. They're like staying there, shutting the bar down. And she gets really intoxicated. And we know for sure that sometime between the hours of two and three in the morning, she exits the bar. What we don't know is exactly how she exited the bar or who she exited with because there starts to be some different accounts.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
One person says that she had actually fallen asleep and then the bouncer kicked her out alone. Another account says that she went outside with an older man. And then a third account says that she just exited the bar by herself doing okay. She wasn't like passed out. But all accounts say she was very intoxicated.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
At some point, we go back to we do know that she tried to get back in the bar to find her friends, but the bouncer won't let her back in because the bar is officially closed. They've stopped serving. So people who are in there are slowly making their way out, but they're not going to let any new people into the bar. There are a couple more eyewitnesses that see her after she's denied entry.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
And a lot of these are confirmed by multiple people. So one thing they know for sure that she did is she was seen talking and dancing with a homeless man for a little while. Naturally. Naturally. Then the next sighting that they think is pretty confident in is they see her talking to a man with a really large white dog. And they're both the dog and the man are wearing matching Superman shirts.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
And someone overhears him saying that he's, you know, from the from the north area. So they give this account of this man from the north with this large white dog in matching Superman shirts. And they get that from a couple of people because obviously someone like that's going to stick out. There's another possible sighting of her talking to four men in a silver car.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
This episode of Crime Junkie is brought to you by Crime Stoppers of Central Indiana.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
And the witness says that they were trying to convince her to go to some kind of after party. But it's unknown if she actually got in the car. There's a fourth witness who has a possible sighting of her in a car. But I don't know how seriously to take this one. I only saw it in one place.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
And additionally, I think what's really distinct about her is the clothing she was wearing and being out in front of that bar. Right. Right. Now, we wouldn't normally put a ton of stock in that. Again, it was just one person. But what we find out later is this 24-hour store is actually really close to where her body was found.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
So it's possible that she actually did get there, whether she walked or whether she maybe was in the car and someone drove her. But we have this one-off sighting. At this point, all of the sightings stop. And for 30 hours, no one sees her. And to be clear, she at this point is not reported missing. This is all stuff we've pieced together after the fact. She is on her weekend break.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
So her employers haven't reported her missing. They don't expect to see her on the weekend. And it was Friday night that she went missing. Sunday afternoon, there's a news broadcast that a body of an unidentified blonde woman had been found with a fake ID or they assume a fake ID. And that's when her employers get notified and actually call the police and say, hey, this might be our au pair.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
No, they don't actually do any of the arresting. All Crime Stoppers does is they're responsible for taking the tip, keeping the tipster anonymous, and then giving that information to police, and police do all the arresting.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Now, the way they found this body is insane. So Sunday morning, the very early hours, there is a homeless man who's digging through garbage cans, trying to find cans to turn in, loose food, whatever. And he finds this black garbage bag and he opens the bag and inside is the full torso of a woman. Whoa. Just the torso. Whoa. He obviously immediately calls the cops.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
The cops find that she had been totally cleaned, even all of her makeup removed. There's no account that I can find. It says that specifically they were keeping it under wraps whether or not she was clothed or nude. There was one blog entry where it talks about her naked torso.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
But I have a feeling that's just somebody doing their own interpretation because from everything I could say, the police were intentionally keeping that quiet. The body had been strangled and severed at the waist right below the ribs. So really the only thing that the person had to cut through was her spine.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
And I don't know if this is a show of somebody who has medical knowledge or if it's the person's just mildly smart. You know what I mean? It doesn't take a lot to figure out.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Exactly. Exactly. One police report that I read said that she may have been alive for up to 24 hours after she was last seen. And they're assuming she was last seen about 3 a.m. on Friday. So I don't know. Again, I only saw one side of that. I don't know if that means the body hadn't set into rigor mortis. I don't know if that means it was still warm.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
I don't know if they could just tell by blood flow. That being said, there wasn't a ton of blood. This was a secondary scene. And to this day... They have no idea where she was actually murdered. So her torso was just found in this bag. They searched the rest of the dumpster and they never found her waist or legs. So once the host family called in, police obviously start investigating.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
I don't really know what to think of the host family calling in. If they again, it was Sunday that this was broadcast, so she wasn't missing. I don't believe from everything I found that they put a picture of her on the news. So I think it's a little bit strange. They're like, oh, a blonde girl in a dumpster must be our Swedish au pair.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
I don't even know how to follow that up. But yes, Crime Stoppers is only responsible for taking the tips, and their number one goal is making sure that the tipsters remain anonymous. As of early 2018, Crime Stoppers of Central Indiana is responsible for clearing over 7,000 cases because of their tips.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
Right, right. But again, I don't know all the details. It might not be that fishy, but a little bit strange. Well, police obviously investigate them first. The family immediately shuts down and lawyers up. Now, I don't think that necessarily means someone is guilty. Like, I am all about lawyering up if anything happens ever, even if you have nothing to do with it. This is also Boston in the 90s.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
But they were very uncooperative. Other nannies had some very unflattering things to say about Frank, that he was just kind of sleazy. They wouldn't confirm or deny whether or not Frank and Karina had any kind of relationship. As they're investigating the family, something super fishy happens. Right behind their condominium, like within 200 feet, at 9.20 p.m.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Karina Holmer in Boston
on Monday evening, this is a day after her body was found, There is a dumpster fire, like up in flames. The whole thing is just burning right behind her employer's home. So police are immediately going and checking it out. Red flags are going up everywhere. They're thinking, OK, is this the second half of her body? Is there something of hers that people are getting rid of?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
Hi, Crime Junkies. It is Ashley Flowers here, and I am popping in to share something new with you that actually stemmed from something that is a bit of a throwback. I think all of you know by now that Britt and I are on the road for Crime Junkie Life Rule number 10 tour. It has been a complete blast, a wonderful seeing all of you who've come out to the stops we've made so far.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
And because you all are my crime junkies and I know you want to be the first in the know, I am sharing the first episode of this season of Three with you right here, right now. So take a listen and then head over to the podcast Three. You can find it wherever you get your podcasts and you can listen to the second episode that also dropped today.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
I can't wait to see more of you soon. But this thing today, what I'm about to tell you, this actually stemmed from our very first tour in 2019. The case we told then was wild, filled with twists and turns. But you guys know me, and when I get in, like I get into all the craziest rabbit holes, like even over the smallest details.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
Well, in the case from our first tour, there was a suspect who had Googled this term that had nothing to do with the case we talked about. This suspect had Googled Dana Ireland autopsy photos. Now, I had never heard of Dana Ireland. And like I said, it had nothing to do with the case we were talking about. Why is he Googling this? So I kept digging and digging. I just had to know more.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
And thus, the years-long journey of exploring Dana Ireland and her case began. This case is one that has so many layers and you can dive into all of the details on our latest season of the podcast, Three. This season is hosted by someone I'm sure you crime junkies already know, Amanda Knox.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
She's going to walk you through the case, through how three men were convicted of Dana's murder, and through the many costs that she knows firsthand come when the justice system gets it wrong. And as our team was on the ground reporting in Hawaii where this case took place, an update came that changed everything.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Jenny told us that she was for sure by that time. Like she was done, but she can't speak for her brother Jeff. She said that she has reasons to believe that Jeff was still speaking to their dad back then. But in the end, after this grand jury, the prosecutor informed her that they didn't have enough evidence for an indictment coming out of that.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
And when Jenny asked the prosecutor what they would need, he pointed to two things. He said, if this is going to move forward, we either need a body or we need a witness. But neither of those things were materializing. Then months turn into years. And by August of 1984, with her mother's case now three years old, Jenny hires a private investigator named Charles Pearson.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
And technically, at least according to a single source, like he's actually the second PI hired. Like another brought on a few years earlier, didn't really make any real progress like finding answers in the case. So this is the second one. Charles, though, has this idea that he thinks could help Jenny get what she needs.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
And inside the lunchbox, they find Charlotte's migraine medicine. But again, no sign of Charlotte and no sign of her car, which like you could say would be all the more reason to think maybe she left on her own. But if she did that, why not take the medicine that she needs with her?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
He discovers that by this point, Vicki McAllister and Fred Grabby are no longer together.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Yeah, nobody wants a case to go cold, but there is like this point. before you lose everyone in the case, where, like, it could actually be a huge benefit if you didn't make progress before.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Like, this could be huge for this case. Right, and so this is what Charles is thinking, too. Now, at first, he wants to be sly about this. So he doesn't just, like, go straight to Vicky. He starts hanging around some bars where Vicky is known to drink, play pool. The Chicago Tribune reports that they meet at one of the bars. They become kind of friendly. And after he...
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Weasels his way in, gains her trust, whatever. He eventually drops the charade, explains that he's a P.I. and then presses Vicky on what she might know about Charlotte's disappearance. And to his surprise, girl just tells him the truth, like admitting, yes, she drove Charlotte's car that day. And yes, she knows exactly what happened. Because she witnessed it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
And she goes on to tell him the horrific details of what Fred did to Charlotte on that July day back in 1981. And her story is pretty similar to what she told police back then. She said she and Fred arrive at the shed to pick up that barrel. And at some point, Charlotte came in from the field on her tractor. Vicky hides, just like he said. Mm-hmm.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
But when Fred and Charlotte get into this argument, this is where Vicky's story changes from her original one and from what Fred originally said. She says that now Fred, who's like 6'4", 280 pounds, becomes violent and he attacked the much smaller Charlotte and ultimately strangled her to death. And Vicky watches all of this? Brit, she is like, not just hiding in the truck, she's like,
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
peeking out from behind the truck. And she says that after Charlotte was dead, Fred loaded her body into that barrel that they like came to get, put it on the back of his truck, and then told Vicky to drive Charlotte's car. He even gave her some gloves to avoid prints, even a bandana to try and cover that hair that might be recognized. And then they dumped Charlotte's car in Terre Haute.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Then they went to Vicky's place about 20 minutes away in Rosedale. And if murdering his wife wasn't bad enough, Vicky says that once they got to her place, Fred stripped Charlotte and then sodomized her corpse.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
The horror show kept going when he took a grease gun. Like, I don't know if you've ever used, like, a caulk gun. Like, think of that. He filled Charlotte's body with grease. And Vicky said he did this because it would make Charlotte's body easier to burn. Basically, as the Forensic Files episode points out, the grease would be flammable. Like, clearly, Fred had a plan in mind.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
I know. This dude is sick. And I don't know how, like, did it happen even this way? Like, did Vicky know everything? I think there's a lot you can't know without being Fred. Yeah. But she does know what happened next, so he loaded Charlotte's body back into the barrel. Then around sundown, they took it to the banks of the Wabash River.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
And under the cover of darkness, and maybe just as her kids were realizing their mom didn't come home that day, Fred poured diesel fuel into the barrel and lit it. And over the next two days... he burned Charlotte's body. And after that was through, Fred dumped the rest of her remains into the river, telling Vicky it would make for good fish bait.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Now, she said that the reason she had her fake story the first time, she was always too terrified to say anything, which like, I mean, I kind of get like if he's going to do that to the mother of his children, like, who are you, Vicky, to this guy? But somehow now, again, all these years later, Charles convinces Vicky to tell this story to authorities.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Vicky takes the police to the scene where Charlotte's body was burned, even pointing to the tree that the barrel was up against. The problem is it's been too long. They even try like testing the soil to see like what's there, but they don't find anything. Not even so much as evidence of diesel fuel left behind.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
They do. They do. And because they have a witness, true to their word, in November 1984, both Fred and Vicky are arrested. Now, Vicky, they need her. She's the witness who's like all this hinges on. They offer her a deal of immunity to testify against Fred. There's even some talk of her possibly receiving the reward for this, which was like $25,000 at that point if Fred got convicted.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
I knew you were going to say all of this. And, yes, you are not wrong, but I haven't given you the full context for why everyone is so worried. Charlotte is actually in the middle of a really nasty divorce with Jeff and Jenny's dad, Fred, which should be marking the end of years of abuse that Charlotte endured at his hand.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Big if, because prosecutors know convicting Fred isn't going to be easy.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Yeah, and it's basically just Fred's word against Vicky's. So they need to figure out how to find a way to corroborate what Vicky is saying, like show that her version is the truth. So in the spring of 1985, with the trial just around the corner, prosecutors get creative.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Since any physical evidence connecting Fred to Charlotte has, I mean, basically been destroyed when he burned her body, prosecutors turned to the one thing still literally standing. That tree that Vicky said the barrel was set against while Charlotte's body burned. Now, knowing they didn't find anything when they tested the soil, they wondered if maybe that tree might still hold some evidence.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
So they call in, wait for it because I've never heard this term, some plant evidence.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
I know. Plant pathologists. Plant pathologists. Now, what this guy discovers, Britt, is wild. He takes some samples of the tree and then looks at the growth rings. And then he can see somehow that in 1981, most likely in the summer, that's literally how detailed they can get, some kind of damage to the tree took place.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
And when his colleague examines things further, he can pinpoint some trace of petroleum, a.k.a. diesel fuel. Yeah. And like it is that petroleum or that diesel fuel that caused the damage. They didn't stop there, though, because they can even tell that branches on the other side of the tree away from where Vicky said that the barrel was placed. Those are totally fine.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Like she's telling the truth. Yeah. Our girl's story is spot on. Yes. And the truth can be dangerous sometimes. when you're up against Fred Grabby. Because according to the police files that we have, this is where Fred's old buddy, Dale, suddenly comes back on the scene.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Police get a tip from a guy named Jim who says that Dale approached him and was feeling him out for a murder-for-hire job on Vicky. What? Did Dale get arrested for this? Doesn't sound like it. Cool. I know. I don't see anything about him being arrested or like what came of this. Like maybe we have to take all of this with a grain of salt.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
because it should be noted that Jim had a long criminal record himself. He'd just been arrested for counterfeit or counterfeiting something, whatever. So, I mean, he could have been making all of this up to get himself out of trouble or like get himself a deal or whatever. I don't know. And again, Dale's no longer alive, so I can't ask him.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Either way, possible murder for higher plot or not, the trial does go on as planned. Prosecutors are able to prove their case to the jury by putting those tree experts on the stand along with Vicky and Fred's own children who do not hold back. The Journal Gazette and Times Courier reports that Jenny describes at times seeing bruising on her mother's arms and her face.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
And it appears that all of this is enough for the jury because in June 1985, Fred is convicted of Charlotte's murder. But that is not where our story ends. Not even close. Because just a few weeks after his conviction, a mother of three named Barbara Graham walks into the Clark County Jail and whips out a gun because she's there to break her boyfriend Fred out of jail.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
I mean, even shortly before the filing, he'd recently been charged with battery for assaulting her. So Fred's clearly not been willing to let go of Charlotte. And while not many people outside of the family know what's been going on behind closed doors, Charlotte doesn't hide these ugly truths from her kids. They're grown adults and she looks to them for support.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Barbara fires off five shots, one of which hits a deputy in the leg. Another shot literally goes through a second deputy's pant leg, nearly wounding them too. It is just total chaos before deputies are finally able to wrestle the gun from Barbara and end this bananas breakout attempt. Did Fred put Barbara up to this? Well...
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Fred told us that Barbara basically informed him of her plan while he was behind bars. Fred's like, no, babe, it's a bad idea. Don't do it. But of course, like when you talk to anyone who's not Fred, like the story is very different.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
When authorities interview Barbara, she told them that Fred was instructing her on things to do, like making sure she practiced with the gun, making sure she packed clothes for him. And he was pressuring her to spend all of her time working on getting him out.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
And the whole thing gets even wilder when she tells authorities that the getaway plan was to hop on a private plane and fly to Florida, pick up new identification there, and then fly to South America. Which, like, how?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
And like to really drive any suspicion home, authorities think that the gun used in all of this was actually the same gun that was found in Charlotte's car back when she was missing, when they found her car. Like so apparently after the grand jury like let down back in 81, they gave that gun back to Fred. What? I know. I mean, again, like, Jenny told us that he was the owner of it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
So, like, I mean, technically, it would be his if that's true.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Um, well, so because he was just convicted of his wife's murder and prosecutors figure he's, I mean, I'm assuming this is what they're thinking, like he's going to be away for a long time, like though he still has yet to be sentenced at that point. They don't actually pursue charges against him for all of this. Barbara, though, is another story.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
So per the Journal Gazette and Times Courier, she's charged with attempted murder and two counts of armed violence.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
I literally had the same thought when I was researching this because I didn't look at a ton of pictures like off the bat. And I was like, okay, he's like getting women to do a ton of like wild stuff for him. Who is this cult leader? It's not what you're going to expect.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
In fact, she had just told her family like days ago that if she ever didn't come home for any reason... Something was up and they should come look for her.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Here's our guy. Okay, okay. Yeah, so, I mean, whatever, whatever.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
All right. Moving on. Now, whatever hold he had over them, whoever he found that he was able to manipulate, like, it's not just like his wife that he killed that suffered. Like, I feel like there were so many devastating consequences to these women. Like, Barbara, who, reminder, mother of three, ends up getting sentenced to 16 years in prison for this stunt. Right.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
But with Fred sitting in jail, breakout attempt thwarted, and his sentencing on the horizon, authorities have to be ready to get this guy locked up for good and move on. But in early September, less than two months after this breakout attempt, authorities have their hands full with another crime that maybe could be connected to Fred.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
On September 4th, 1985, authorities get a call that they probably can't believe. As reported by the Herald and Review, it's from a truck driver who, while passing the Grabby property, sees not one, but two homes on fire. One is the main house where Charlotte lived, and the other is a smaller house once occupied by her son Jeff and his wife Cindy.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Thankfully, when this all happens, no one is inside. But immediately, authorities suspect that this is arson. And it's not long before they get proof of it when they discover that some kind of flammable liquid was used to start these fires or like get them going.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
So in the Forensic Files episode, Dan Crumrin, the acting sheriff at the time, suspects just that. But we actually dug a little deeper on this. My new favorite saying, always go a layer deeper. Yeah. And Jenny told us something else that has been suggested by law enforcement but never actually proven. She says that it was actually her brother Jeff who burned down the home.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
I'm trying to tell a story here. So to add to their worry, a couple of neighbors tell Jeff and Jenny that Fred was actually spotted in the area around 4 to 4.30. So the kids set off to find Fred at this point.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
And she said that he admitted this to her. It was maybe an attempt to get the insurance money, possibly with Fred, maybe on his own. Like, that's not totally clear. According to her recollection, though, that was never actually paid out. And it sounds like, at least according to the Journal Gazette and Times Courier, these homes were caught up in some kind of legal mess at the time anyway.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
So whatever the plan was, I'm not sure that it worked for whoever had that plan. But it's important to point out that it doesn't appear police could ever connect Fred or anyone else, not Jeff, to these fires. All they could do was speculate at the time. About a week after this fire, this is when Fred does get sentenced, and he gets sentenced to life in prison.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
So at this point, for law enforcement and the Grabby family, justice is finally served. But that feeling is short-lived. Roughly a year after his original sentencing, Fred's case gets overturned on appeal. This is in September of 1986, and a new trial gets ordered.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
According to the Journal Gazette, it's overturned because the courts find jurors were given improper instructions concerning Vicky's testimony specifically.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Well, that and... get the right judge in the right county. Because, I mean, I've seen like other cases where there's like a gaping hole you could run a truck through and those get denied. But here, overturned. So while prosecutors wait to retry Fred for Charlotte's murder, they decide to go after him for his possible involvement with the escape attempt back in 1985 to keep him locked up.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Now, initially, they knew Fred would go away for a long time. So remember, they didn't see the point in taking him to court on those minor charges. But now with his ruling overturned, like, OK, let's get him on something. But their plan doesn't work. First, there's a mistrial for that. Then Fred is acquitted for that.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
So the stakes in Fred's retrial for Charlotte's murder hold even more weight now. In March 1988, the new trial is about to begin. And much like the first time, Fred's children, Jenny and Jeff, are supposed to testify against their dad. But there's a problem. Jeff's wife, Cindy, hasn't heard from Jeff in days. He's like fully MIA, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
One of our reporters, Emily, spoke to Jenny for this episode, and she said that they looked around for him a little bit, specifically at a couple of bars in the area where he was known to spend a lot of time. But when they couldn't find him, Jenny reached out directly to the Clark County Sheriff, James Thompson, known to the family and others in this small town as Red.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
I don't think anyone really knows. At least one source at the time reported that he might have been trying to dodge his creditor. So I think everyone is just really confused at first. Thank you. Thank you very much.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
And by the next day, Red enlists the help of the state police, who are able to track Fred down. They end up finding him on the farm in the very place that his wife might have disappeared from, that shed. Per the records, Fred tells police that in the early afternoon on the 24th, he showed up at the shed with a woman named Vicki McAllister because she wanted a burn barrel.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Thank you. We'll be right back. Thank you. We'll be right back. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
So Fred began to load one up just as Charlotte started to pull up on the tractor. So I guess he instructed Vicky to hide in the front seat of his truck because, oh, by the way, Vicky was his new girlfriend. Oh. And he wanted to avoid some kind of blow up.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
But it sounds like that didn't really matter because then he admits that when Charlotte got off the tractor, they started arguing about his and Vicky's relationship anyways. And Fred says that the fight ended with him telling Charlotte to go to hell and then he hopped in his truck and drove away.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
And he says that Charlotte actually followed him in her car, racing up behind him to give him the finger. And the last time he saw her is when he crossed over I-70 while Charlotte went right heading towards Terre Haute, Indiana, which is like just over the state line, about 20 minutes from Marshall. And the Grabby property is super close to the border near the Wabash River.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
convenient that she just left on her own very and fred also tells police that charlotte has done this before and you know what like she might be gone we might not be able to find her but she's gonna come back she's playing some kind of game and did he say where he and vicky went after this altercation He says that he went to a trailer, which I think belonged to Vicky.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
And he said he got there around 4 p.m. and then he stayed there till the next morning. Okay, Fred. I know, but like at least part of what Fred told police seems to be true. Because police follow up with the grabby neighbors who indicate that they did see Fred driving in his pickup truck down the road with Charlotte's car following right behind him. Just like he said.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
One of those neighbors said that this happened between 4.15 and 4.30. But this is where Fred's narrative starts to fall apart because both neighbors that they end up talking to tell authorities that they don't believe it was Charlotte driving Charlotte's car. One of the witnesses describes the driver as a woman who had blonde curly hair. Charlotte is known to have straight, short, dark hair.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
And both witnesses know Charlotte super well. So these accounts like have some real teeth to them.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
This is my first question. We asked Jenny and all these years later, she says she couldn't exactly remember. She remembered it being like frizzy. But according to police records we got our hands on, Cindy did tell police that Vicky had blonde curly hair. And also, we did get our hands on some pictures of her from back in the day. And like, definitely it looks light colored, definitely curly.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
So I don't think it's a mystery as to who could have been driving Charlotte's car. Now, if I were Red or the state police, obviously, I'm going straight back to Fred, calling him a big fat liar and pressing him to tell me why witnesses spotted someone who looked an awful lot like his girlfriend driving his missing wife's car the day that she went missing.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
And the story I have for you today is a doozy. Around every corner, there's a twist. After a woman goes missing, it's up to law enforcement and her children to make sure justice is served. But listen closely, because we think that there might be more crimes out there connected to this case that are yet to be solved. This is the story of Charlotte Grabby. It's around 8 p.m.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Yeah, but I don't know if they did any of that. Like, there's nothing I can see in the files that we have that shows they went and pressed Fred. And I'm not saying they didn't. But what we do know is that on July 26th, this is now two days after Charlotte was last seen, this is when police interview Vicky.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Except there's nothing about them pressing her on if she was the one driving that car, not like the thing I want to know the most. Vicky pretty much just tells them the same story that Fred did. She says that she was hiding in the truck. She could hear Fred and Charlotte arguing. Fred eventually jumped in the truck and then they drove away, arriving to her trailer between like four and five.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
So police don't get a whole lot from Fred and Vicky. Because it feels like we're not asking any of the important questions. Fair. But maybe they wanted to find Charlotte's car before they go making accusations. And luckily, that is exactly what happens next, like the very same day that they interview Vicky. Charlotte's car is discovered parked and locked at a bar in Terre Haute.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
And unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, there's nothing super alarming about the condition of the car. Like when police finally get inside and search the vehicle, there's no signs of a struggle or blood or anything. The only thing of interest that we do know they find in the car is a gun. But in rural Indiana, it's, like, honestly not weird to find that in someone's car.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Yeah, and Jenny told us that in her mom's case, she thinks that this gun... that they found was actually one that her dad purchased, but he never took it with him when he moved out of the house after the split. So her mom was keeping it with her and on her, like, for protection, basically.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
You know, I don't think there's any testing they can do on the gun itself. I mean, I know they could test Fred for like GSR gunshot residue to see if he'd fired a gun. Right.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Yeah. Nothing says that they did this, though. But I don't think there's like a test you can run on a gun to know if it was fired within the last couple of days.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
So I know the car eventually gets returned to Marshall for further examination, and then things like hairs and fibers and fingerprints are found in the car, but none of these things that are found seem to tie directly back to Fred or Vicky.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
So while the car didn't appear to provide a ton of new information, finding that gun that Charlotte kept close for protection just reinforced how truly terrified she was of Fred. And if there was any doubt about that, Charlotte cleared that up in her own words. Police found that Charlotte kept a safety deposit box at a local bank.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
And when investigators got access to that box, they found a three-page signed letter dated July 10th. This is about two weeks before she disappeared. And in this letter, Charlotte accuses Fred and his business associate, this guy named Dale, of doing some shady stuff, like stealing from other farms.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
And Charlotte's letter also describes a scheme where Dale and Fred would remove serial numbers from oil pump jacks, which seems to indicate that they were maybe stolen or stealing them or whatever. So essentially, these two were getting into all kinds of things. But even more damning, Charlotte says in her letter...
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
on July 24th, 1981, when 21-year-old Jenny Grabby gets a call saying that her 39-year-old mother, Charlotte, hasn't come home after working in the fields on the family farm. Now, Jenny's brother, Jeff, and his wife, Cindy, Cindy's actually the one calling. They also live on the property with Charlotte, which is how they realized that she was MIA so quickly.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Quote, Fred and I are getting a divorce and I'm not sure I will not be killed through all of this. End quote.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
You want to, like, reach back in time and be like, you're writing this letter for a reason. Like, you're not crazy. You need to... Do something.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
And this is like, you know, the PSA we do to everyone. Like, if you're having those feelings, like, so many times people are like, well, it's not going to happen to me. And I just... I'm going to write it down just in case.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Just in case is like you're at a line that like it's already gone far too far. So like we're going to have a ton of links to resources in the show notes. But like there are plenty of people out there like Charlotte who are like doing things like this, writing this letter. So the signs that Charlotte was in danger before she vanished were very real, not just in the form of assaults from Fred.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Jeff tells police that actually the day before Charlotte's disappearance, she got a strange call from a woman. And this woman told Charlotte that she had some documents that would get Fred in trouble and she wanted to meet up at a bar. Mm.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Obviously no. Charlotte's not even falling for it either. And when the woman refused to give her name, Charlotte refused to go meet her. Yeah. But like this is another big mystery within a mystery. Who was this woman? What was this all about? It only adds to like all of the questions they're already asking. And what, if anything, this has to do with Charlotte's disappearance, police don't know.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Because like a lot of things in this case, it's all too vague. But Charlotte's kids don't need the same evidence maybe even the police do or the jury would. They are convinced from the jump that their own father murdered their mother. But not everyone is on that train. There are at least a few people who are on Fred's side.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Police interview a friend of Fred's named Estill, and he tells police almost exactly what Fred told them. He thinks that Charlotte is playing some kind of game. That she would come back. And he doesn't think that Fred would ever harm Charlotte. Police also talked to Fred's business associate, Dale.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
And according to a Forensic Files episode, he, oddly enough, tells police that he, you know, thinks Fred didn't do it because Fred was with him at his house on the night of the 24th. OK, get your story straight, Dale. Right. Because like Fred's saying he's at Vicky's, right?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Precisely. And worth noting that Jenny told us that Charlotte was afraid of Dale, too. Now, Dale is unfortunately no longer alive or like I would have just gone and asked him about all of this.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Right. No, not really. So according to Jenny... Her mom usually went out to the field like really early in the morning, often at daybreak, like as farmers are known to do. Sometimes she would work till like late in the night. The only thing we have to even kind of give us a timeline are those neighbors who saw Fred and not Charlotte driving away.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
So like remember, one of those neighbors puts this between 4.15 and 4.30 p.m. Another neighbor actually puts Fred's truck at the shed between 3 and 4. But by 4.30, both the truck and Charlotte's car were gone. If something happened to her at the shed and like at this time frame, we're looking at 3 to 4.30 and then like who knows where Fred really was and when after that.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
So Jenny hops in her car, drives the few miles to the farm in Marshall, Illinois. And together, she, Cindy and Jeff head to the soybean field where Charlotte had been working. Now, even though she's nowhere to be seen when they show up, they know she was here because they look in the shed that's nearby and they find Charlotte's tractor. They find Charlotte's lunchbox sitting on it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
As August rolls in, authorities and locals form search parties to look for Charlotte, including searching the Wabash River near the Grabby property. But it is a needle in a haystack because Marshall is located in rural Illinois and the area is quite literally thousands of acres of corn and soybean fields.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Our reporter Emily actually was able to interview Fred for this episode, and he said that they had over a thousand acres with most of it being in Illinois, but like some of the land crossed the state line into Indiana.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Right. It's not like there's a lot out there. And when you think about like even like cornfields and stuff too, like the corn is high this time of year. It's not like you can just like peer far and wide.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
And for everyone who did not grow up on a farm like you, Emily actually went out there with Jenny to like look at the property where she was last seen. So we're going to have photos up there today. It's still even very rural today. So you guys can kind of get a sense of what we're talking about for our city folk.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
Now, by September, probably feeling a tug of desperation, the police actually call in a psychic to make sure they're just leaving no stone unturned. But even then, they have no luck locating Charlotte. Or should I say Charlotte's remains? Because Jenny and Jeff are sure, sure, sure, sure that their mother is gone. And they're so sure who is responsible. Right.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
So it's like salt in the wound for them when their father does an interview with the Herald and Review and now publicly says that he thinks his wife is alive.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
And this just pushes Jeff and Jenny even more, and they pressure authorities to convene a grand jury. And in October of 1981, they get their wish, sort of.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Charlotte Grabbe
There's a regular grand jury, not a sort of grand jury. But the problem is when Fred and his girlfriend Vicky appear before the grand jury, they just plead the fifth. So like the people they believe know something that they're like pushing this grand jury for aren't saying a word.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Brett. All right, you guys. This is a case that captivated the nation last year, like the kind of media circus you can't ignore. And even if you weren't a crime junkie, you knew about this case and you had an opinion about this case.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
a cocktail straw, and pieces of glass that they believe came from that glass he was holding when he left the bar. They also find pieces of red and clear plastic consistent with Karen's taillight on Brian Albert's lawn. So two days later, on January 31st, an autopsy is performed on John and the medical examiner finds that John suffered a lot of injuries.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Now, he's got several abrasions on his right forearm, small cuts above his right eye and on the left side of his nose, a two inch laceration on the back of his head, multiple skull fractures that caused brain bleeding and two black eyes. Now, aside from the abrasions on his arm, from the neck down, he does not have a single broken bone or fracture.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But ultimately, they find that he died of blunt force trauma and hypothermia. So Proctor looks at all of this evidence that police found, the taillight, the autopsy results, the way John was ejected from his shoe, the same way he's seen so many cases of vehicular homicides before.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And it is his belief that all of it points right to Karen and the idea that she backed into John in her Lexus SUV and left him to die in the snow. So on February 1st, police arrest Karen at her home in Mansfield. She is arraigned the next day on charges of manslaughter, motor vehicle homicide, and leaving the scene of a deadly crash.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
When that happens, Karen retains attorney David Iannetti first, and local press catch him coming out of the courthouse, where he gives the public their first real insight into the case and what's to come. Karen's going to fight. He says she has no criminal intent and that she loved John and she is innocent.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Karen was let out on a $50,000 bail that day, and Yannetti started to prepare what at first felt like a pretty straightforward defense. But then, on February 2nd, Yannetti gets this very strange call from an anonymous tipster that takes this seemingly straightforward case and transforms it into one of the biggest conspiracy cases I have ever come across.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
According to Boston Magazine, on this call, this anonymous tipster says something to the effect of your client is innocent. John was beaten up by Brian Albert and his nephew. They broke his nose. And when O'Keefe didn't come to, Brian and a federal agent dumped his body on the front lawn.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So the federal agent is someone they were out with drinking at the bars that night, someone that went back to their place, too. Now, to be fair, we don't know for sure this is who the anonymous tipster was talking about. But like the federal agent we know was at the house that night was Brian Higgins, which I'm sure is a name you're familiar with.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But he's an ATF agent, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. And he's going to become central to this story. It's why you know his name. And he's actually one of the only people who knew Karen really well in that group. But back to this call. So this tipster ends up recanting everything he said. Apparently, police track him down.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And when they interview him, he says, like, J.K., none of it's true. But his tip has already gotten Karen's wheels turning. She says in an interview with Nightline that after the tipster came forward, she went on Facebook and started finding photos of the police who were investigating the case with people who were in the Alberts' house that night.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Now, it's unclear what exact photos she is talking about in that interview, but we know now that Michael Proctor is in multiple social media posts with members of the Albert family. So she starts to wonder if all of these people are connected and if she's being framed in some sort of cover up for something they did. And if that's the case, she knows that she needs a top notch defense team.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So in September, she sends an email in which she says, quote, I am fighting for my life against a blue wall. And that email goes to Alan Jackson. Not Alan Jackson, the country singer.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
This is a high profile defense attorney from Los Angeles. And this idea that she's putting forward, this catches his attention. Now, he has a couple of follow up questions, but it doesn't take much. He's in. And no one's been able to say why exactly this next thing happens for sure.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Is it because Karen seemed to be gearing up for a fight and they were hoping to intimidate her, push her into a deal? Or was it just because they continued digging and felt like the circumstances of the case had changed? You tell me.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But by June 2022, a grand jury had indicted Karen on upgraded charges of second-degree murder, manslaughter while operating under the influence of alcohol, and leaving the scene of personal injury or death. Karen again pleads not guilty and posts bail again. This time, it's $100,000. And this is really when the madness begins. Not when this thing goes to trial. No, no, no.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
That is not happening for two more years at this point. The pretrial hearings and what played out on the internet was a spectacle on its own. Enough so that we all knew what each side's case was before even going to trial or before the first witnesses ever even took the stand. I mean, we already knew the prosecution side, right?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Though they do fill in the story a little more with details along the way. Basically, they say that John and Karen's relationship was on its way out. John's niece had even heard him say as much, like his relationship with Karen had, like, run its course. And the day they all went out, John seemed pretty fed up with her. In one text, he told her he was tired of arguing all the time.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But, I mean, we know they also met up at the bar, and he was trying to convince her to stay over for the weekend. So, like, talk about mixed signals. Yeah. But it seems like Karen might have had one leg out the door too because she was texting another guy. And not just any other guy, that ATF agent, Brian Higgins.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
They had been pretty flirty over texts, even shared a kiss pretty recently at John's house when Karen walked Brian Higgins to the door. And listen, new fear unlocked. When this thing does get to trial, Brian has to take the stand and read these texts out loud. under the fluorescent lights of the courtroom, streamed on court TV.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And I have never suffered from secondhand embarrassment the way I did watching that day of trial. And I need everyone to know exactly what I mean.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So relationship status, complicated. For sure. Now, even though everyone at the bar said that the couple seemed fine, the theory is that they began fighting about something in the car. So that by the time John gets out of Karen's SUV, Karen is pissed. Exhibit A, her voicemails. Is that the real reason she didn't get out and go with him? I don't know.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
It's hard for anyone to know why Karen didn't get out because Karen's own story about why she didn't get out has changed over time. More proof to the prosecution that she's lying. Like at one point she says, oh, she didn't get out because she had a stomach ache. And then at another point she says it's because she didn't know if she and John were actually invited.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So she sent him in to kind of like suss out the vibe. Either way, she doesn't go in. Instead, the prosecution alleges that John got out of the car and when he did, Karen intentionally backed up into him, which they say is proven by a few things. One, I mean, first and foremost, everyone in the Albert home says that John never came inside. Hard stop.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Two, there are no footprints in the snow leading from the Alberts' house to John's body, so it seems like no one from the house walked anywhere near where John was found.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
I don't think so. It's just like pointed out. So I felt like I had to throw it in here. But like, no, I don't know. Number three, we have some SUV data. So they have data from Karen's SUV that shows she backed up for 60 feet driving 24 miles per hour that morning. But the vehicle's data doesn't specify exactly what time.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Now, number four, they've got surveillance video that shows John leaving the bar, like I said earlier, with a glass in his hand. And they say that they find that glass shattered next to his body on the lawn. So they think that he was holding it when she backed up into him.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
On January 28th, 41-year-old Karen Reed met up with her 46-year-old boyfriend of two years, John O'Keefe. They met at this bar in Canton, Massachusetts called C.F. McCarthy's.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And then, of course, number five, which is like the prosecution's clincher, you have her broken taillight found in the snow, which they reconfigure back together to show it was hers. And the prosecution says that they even find pieces of plastic from the taillight, like somewhere within his clothing. And there's like debate about like where in the clothing or whatever. But like, does it matter?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
I don't know, because they say they found DNA, John's DNA, on the taillight. The sixth thing they point to is they've got a hair on the back of Karen's car that when tested is found to be consistent with John's DNA. And then finally, they have the autopsy. He suffers blunt force trauma after, as the prosecution says, being hit by Karen's car.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And then she drives away, leaving him to get hypothermia and die because no one knows he's out there. Pretty cut and dry, right? Yeah, if only. I know. So in one of the early pretrial hearings, Karen's defense attorney, Alan Jackson, announces how he's going to defend Karen by exposing a cover-up and a far-reaching conspiracy to frame Karen.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And just to be clear, when I say conspiracy, I mean, we are talking about the legal definition of a conspiracy. One or more people conspiring with one another to carry out a criminal act. And man, whether it is truth or just a combination of very bad police work and coincidence, what comes out is mind-blowing. So I need to address the turtle in the room.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Now, surveillance video shows Karen walking in, greeting John at 8.51 p.m., and they're drinking there for about two hours until they walk over to another nearby bar, The Waterfall, where they meet up with a group of people that John knew, some of whom Karen knows-ish. But some of them were law enforcement, just like John, who is a Boston cop.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So there is this blogger who goes by the handle Turtle Boy. Real name, Aiden Carney. And don't worry, if you don't like calling him Turtle Boy, he is given an alternate option, dubbing himself Journalism Jesus. So do with that what you will. But basically, this guy covers what he calls anti-establishment news. Now, he's from the area, so he hears about Karen's story.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And I touched on it briefly in my SiriusXM show, but I never did a proper crime junkie deep dive because as we were getting into it, it was going to trial. And I thought, like, OK, things are going to wrap up. We're going to have a conclusion. Right. I have never been so wrong.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And I didn't know at first like how he really like latches on to this. But again, I just watched the doc this morning and I found out it's actually someone from Karen's like family, friends, team, whatever, actually reached out to him. They had like followed him, liked what he did and was like, hey, you should pay attention to this. They're the ones that actually point him in this direction.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And he like fully leans in. He is fully bought into the conspiracy and it basically becomes his whole personality as seen from his website. And for better or worse, he is a really big reason why this case took off as much as it did. Somehow this guy was coming out with a ton of insider information on the case. Well, turns out somehow sometimes it was because Karen was leaking stuff to him.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Like there was a state police affidavit that reveals that over the course of a few months in 2023, Karen spent like 40 hours on the phone with him, allegedly feeding him confidential information. And listen, I'm all about independent journalism and alternatives to mainstream news.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But he did a lot of things that rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, which is why he has been such a polarizing presence in this case. Like, for example, he showed up at Jen McCabe's kids' soccer game and recorded himself asking her inflammatory questions.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And his so-called turtle riders did a rolling rally where they went house to house in a caravan of cars using a bullhorn and shouting about their cover-up allegations outside witnesses' homes. Which, to be clear, like those people have never been charged.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And at this point, they were all considered witnesses in the case, which is why he ends up getting charged with witness intimidation down the line. And this group's protests are popping up all over, even out of state. But there is nowhere that they are more intense than right outside of the courthouse during trial. I mean, it is wild.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Turtle Boy and his fans go in hard on the free Karen Reid movement. They're wearing Turtle Boy branded FKR merch and holding rallies outside the courthouse, like to the point. that the judge has to put up a 200-foot buffer zone.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And on that documentary on HBO, someone had said that, like, I don't know if this is true or not, but they claimed that the jurors could actually, like, hear them, like, chanting free Karen Reid while they were trying to deliberate. Like, I don't remember, like, even if you didn't watch every minute of trial like I did, like, this was all over the news. It was a madhouse.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And our reporter spoke with one of John's closest friends, and he told us that free Karen Reid protesters were actually calling people cop killers on their way into court. And a bunch of officers and John's friends had to escort John's mom into the courthouse.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Like, this guy we're talking to is a Marine veteran, and he said the scene outside the courthouse reminded him of being in a combat zone in Iraq. And the chaos of all of this made everything worse. 10 times harder for John's grieving family.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Now, everyone's having a good time, like mingling, talking. No one person standing out more than another. Video from that night shows that Karen was throwing back drinks. At one point in the night, she actually seemed to be like ordering shots and then pouring them into her mixed drink, I guess to like make them stronger. Actually, I just watched the documentary that came out on HBO.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And I was just trying to rewatch some footage to like really like wrap my mind around what was happening, like a reminder almost, because it does feel like forever ago at this point. And it was wild the way that, you know, you see this, like we saw this with OJ, the way that people like wrap themselves around this and can get so, like you forget why we're all here and how tragic this is.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
They're like tailgating this And people were outside on lawn chairs, like watching it and chanting. And it has become something so much bigger than the reason we're here. And the reason we're here is getting lost. So you can understand why state officials don't give much credence to this blogger.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And I say blogger, I know he says journalist, but there is a difference between like anything he hears just goes up online. Like the vetting process doesn't seem to be there. And it's also no surprise, really, that the prosecution thinks that the defense's idea of a conspiracy is bonkers. I mean, the Norfolk D.A.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Michael Morrissey makes a bold move and even issues a video statement saying that there's a reason people are tried in court and not on the Internet, which is like that I agree with. But he also uses this video as an opportunity to defend the one and only Michael Proctor.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Well, not so fast, my guy. Internal Affairs isn't so confident in how he's handled this case. They end up opening an investigation into Proctor's conduct. And it turns out someone else is looking into his conduct, too. While everyone is so busy saying the cover-up theory is outlandish and some scheme cooked up by the not-country singer Alan Jackson...
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
In comes an unprecedented, and I do not use that word lightly, unprecedented bombshell. While attorneys are getting ready to call witnesses for the trial, someone else is reaching out to those same witnesses, the FBI. That's right, the feds are getting involved. And they have their own case that ends up kind of giving the defense a leg up.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Because all of a sudden, they've got access to like 3,000 pages of documents that the feds have collected in their investigation about this stuff. And it's like almost every suspicion the defense has had gets confirmed and some. And like... I don't even know where to start, but like high level, the defense's theory is that Karen and John drove to the Alberts' house. John goes in, Karen leaves.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
There's some kind of altercation in the house, specifically involving John, Brian Higgins, Brian Albert, and Brian Albert's nephew, Colin Albert. Now, they think there was some kind of altercation in the basement of the home, and then they put him out in the front lawn where he died. And if you believe this theory and everything that's to come, they knew he was going to die.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
She says like it was a drink she didn't like. And so she got a shot and was pouring it in there. I don't know. Either way, shots and drinks. And listen, it's not like everyone else is sober. This is a group that can put a few back. And no one is ready to call it quits around midnight when the bar is closing.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But let me really break it down. So here is the defense for Karen Reed. So they say that even if Karen and John were fighting earlier that day, they're fine by the time they get to the first bar. The people who were with them even testified that they seemed like they were getting along. So Karen and John meet up with everyone else at the waterfall. They get invited back to the Alberts' house.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Now, when they get there, by, like, the time of trial and stuff, the defense is going with Karen's later story, that she just didn't know if they were really invited or welcome. So she waits in the car while John goes in for a vibe check. She doesn't see him go in. Like, she doesn't actually watch him go in the door. But he gets out of the car. She assumes he goes in. Right.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But then he doesn't come back out. And she gets pissed off. Thank you.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. . . . . .,,,,, P P P P P P實 , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , a Laboratory a ,,,,,,
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Despite the fact that it is already snowing and New England is about to get walloped by a Nor'easter. John even still has a cocktail glass in his hand when he leaves the bar with Karen. And they move the party over to a house about five minutes away at 34 Fairview Road. Becomes infamous at some point.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Now, the house belongs to a couple in the group, this other Boston cop and his wife, so Brian and Nicole Albert. Now, it was their son, Brian Jr. 's 23rd birthday, and I guess Brian and Nicole basically invited everyone back to their house to join whatever party he was having.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Now, despite the copious amounts of alcohol that has been consumed, Karen climbs behind the wheel of her Lexus, John in the passenger seat, because she's going to drive them over. Now, John didn't know Brian Albert super well, but he did know someone else in the group well, a woman named Jen McCabe. And she is actually sisters with Brian's wife, Nicole Albert, who owns the house.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So John and Jen exchange calls and texts along the way. It's now shortly after midnight, January 29th. At 12.14, John texts Jen McCabe, where to? And then less than a minute later, she calls John back. And they have this like 44-second conversation, presumably like giving, getting directions. Four minutes after that, at 12.18, John calls Jen for 36 seconds.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Lucky says that when he first passes the Alberts' house at 2.45 a.m., there's no vehicle parked out front. But then when he comes back, like 30 or 40 minutes later, he sees a Ford Edge parked on the street right in front of where John's body was found. Now, this is relevant because the Alberts say that no one else was at their house that night after everyone left the party.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So if this is true, whose car was that? Now, there's a pretty quiet couple of hours between like 2.30 and 4.30 in the morning where there's no phone activity. 4.30 is when Karen wakes up John's niece. She asks her to call Jen because she didn't have her number. And then she eventually calls Jen directly and that's made at 4.53. And after that, Jen does try to call John at least once at 5.04.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And some of those calls after that were part of the bunch that Jen deleted. Now, why is Jen calling? The simple explanation is that she just got news that her friend is missing and she's trying to reach him.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Yeah. So the defense, who believes that she searched how long to die in cold at 2.27, they think she knows exactly where her friend is and maybe she was doing it because she wanted to make it look like she was concerned. Then again, I ask, like, why delete the calls?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
I heard that, too. But then, like, why stop calling from 1250 or, like, whatever her last call was till 5 a.m.? Like, it doesn't totally add up for me. But, like, you'll see nothing in this story totally adds up. Right. Okay, so Karen calls Jen again at 5.05, but doesn't get through. Jen calls her right back. They talk for 43 seconds, presumably making plans to meet up to look for John.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Both of those call logs are also deleted by Jen. And apparently on that deleted call, Jen and Karen agree that Karen will go pick her up. So Karen gets into her SUV, which was parked in John's garage, and his home security system catches her on surveillance backing out at 5.07 a.m. Now, John's SUV is in the driveway. And as she is backing out, his car moves ever so slightly.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
I mean, like, you gotta zoom, don't blink. But it's right as Karen's car would be getting close to his. And if Karen's car hit John's, it would have been her right side taillight that hit it. The same right side taillight that police allege she hit John with so hard that it was cracked and left behind at the Alberts' house. Was it already cracked before she ever even pulled into the garage?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Likely he's like getting some clarifying directions or whatever. Because by this point, everyone is starting to arrive at the house. And like Jen is expecting John and Karen too. But they don't come rolling into the house after everyone. So Jen goes to the window and looks out. She actually sees a dark SUV that might be Karen's. So she texts John at 1227. Here?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Would love to tell you, but there's no video footage from John's ring camera showing Karen pulling into John's garage that night. Why is there no video, you may ask? Because the footage is missing. How? Another tech question that somehow there is no answer to. The prosecution has insinuated that Karen deleted that part of the video from the Ring app sometime like the day of John's death.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Though there is no data backing this up. They just like pose this hypothetically. While the defense alleges that investigators deleted it before handing the video over to them. Also no proof of that. Cool. So whatever, okay, no problem, there's probably more footage, right? Somewhere along her drive home?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
All we have to do is show the taillight is cracked before she gets to John's that morning and there is no debating this, like case over. Well, they found a camera on a local library that would have been on the exact route she took to John's house. It would have shown the right side taillight and everything.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And police even collected it in time to get the footage from the time Karen would have been driving by on the 29th. But? But when that footage was turned over to the defense, it's missing a crucial two-minute window that would have shown Karen's car after leaving the Alberts. Now, the prosecution says, well, that's just what we got. And we just turned it over how it was turned over to us.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
That's what they're telling us. So back to our timeline. Karen pulls out at 5.07 to go looking for John on her own for like 20 minutes before she goes to meet with Jen and Carrie. And I think like there's even video of her car like going in the direction of the waterfall bar, which is like confusing to me because she leaves him. Not there. Not there. What are you looking for there?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Do you think that he could have gone back there? And it's really interesting because there is this moment in the trial where the first trial where Jen McCabe is on the stand and she even says that in one of her like first conversations with Karen, she's asking her like what happened or whatever. And Karen's like, oh, I like I left him at the Waterfall Bar. And Jen's like, no, you didn't.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
The trial of Karen Reid for the murder of John O'Keefe was a six-week spectacle that had more twists and turns in theatrics than most legal dramas on TV. And it all ended with a mistrial. So it's happening again. Now, last time, I quite literally watched every minute of every day at trial because this is a case where you have to know every detail to talk confidently about what happened.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Like we left together. We saw you outside of my sister's house. So I don't know if that is like what Karen believed. Like all of her stories now are she like remembers going, remembers him going in there. So like was she making up a story? Does she not remember in the early days? Is everything a blur? Like is everyone drinking so much that no one knows what's going on? I don't know.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But she goes looking for 20 minutes, at least like in the, we've got her going in the direction of the waterfall, but then she like makes it back to Jen where they meet up. Jen, meanwhile, in this time, tries calling John's phone a few more times. 508, 509, both deleted later. From 514 to 532, there are a bunch of calls between Karen's phone and Jen's phone and Jen to John's phone.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Those all get deleted as well in Jen's call log. And Karen also tries to call John a few more times. By 546, the three women are at John's house, still trying to call his cell with no luck. And so they all head out at 552. They get to the Alberts, and at 6.04, Jen makes the call to 911.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
When he hasn't replied two minutes later, she calls him again. John answers the call. It's a quick eight seconds, and then he hangs up. But he still hasn't come in. At 1231, Jen texts John. Hello? At 1240, she texts him again, pull behind me. At 1241, John gets two missed calls from Jen, and Jen texts, where are you? 1243, John gets a missed call from Jen. 1245, Jen texts John, hello.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Now, first responders get to the scene fast, and this is when some of them say that they allegedly heard Karen say, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him, or like some variation of that. But interestingly, the defense makes a big point in court to show that nobody put any of this in their reports from that day. Not the police, not the paramedics.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
This confession that everyone remembers so vividly only gets spoken about later. Which does feel odd that, like, nobody mentions a confession of any kind. They're not arresting her for admitting that she hit him. Well, and if it's not in any notes, it's
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
They're like, this isn't like just like a small detail. You have someone confessing to the crime. How does that not make it into any report? And they're just like, I didn't think it was relevant or like there's a zillion reasons why they say they didn't put it in. But like they swear on the stand it happened. But the defense is like, did it? Now, the defense says Karen never said that at all.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
When Karen talks to 2020, she says it was preceded by did and was a question. Did I hit him? But I'm like getting confused about this to begin with, because this seems like one of the things like she has admitted to, like she admits on 2020, even in the beginning of this HBO doc, like she talks about it.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But then towards the end of the doc, like I got all twisted or I think she's all twisted because she's like, you know, I wonder if if I even said that. Like it's been so many people's stories. And, you know, I so much was going on. It was so chaotic. Like maybe I just kind of I don't know if these words are her words exactly, but like internalized it and made that my story.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So I'm like, wait, we all agreed that you asked, did I hit him? And now we're trying to say we're talking about if the words even came out of your mouth at all. Yeah. I don't know. You have to watch it. I don't know what to make of it.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
She suggests a plow, which is, like, ultra-specific. Yeah, to me... Like, that's not where my head would go. I'd be like, oh, he passed out at the place that I left him.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Yeah. Like, she says when she's asked about this, like, she just knows that there's no world he would not come home to his niece and his nephew because she specifically, like, made the threat, I'm not coming home. And she knows he's responsible and, like, wouldn't leave them. So she says, like, if he didn't come home, it has to mean something terrible happened.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
It doesn't make sense. But again, back to our timeline. Jen makes some additional calls that don't make a lot of sense with the story we've been told. And then she makes two searches at 623. How long does it take to digest food, which was like I think an auto populated search as she's trying to type how long to die. And then it like da da da da. And then she has one that's like how long T.I.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
die and kicked like again, they're all typos. It's freezing and she's trying to type. But the question is the same. But neither of those searches are Haas longed to die in cold. Which is important here. I think so, but whatever. So they're out on her sister's lawn with her friend dead on the ground. At this point, it makes sense to notify the people inside the house, right? Yeah.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So she calls her sister, Nicole Albert, at 607 and 608. Both calls are answered, but only last a few seconds. Both are deleted from Jen's phone log. And this is interesting because Brian and Nicole never come out of the house, like the whole time, ever. And according to all their statements, they were supposed to have been asleep until Jen came into their room to wake them up at 6.35 a.m.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So who's answering the calls at 6.07 and 6.08? Jen says it's just all wrong and those calls weren't answered. Wait, they were or weren't? Jen says they weren't. The data says they were. Pick your favorite. Okay. I know. Even after they were awake, though, like I reiterate, they never came out. They never came out even after we know they were awake. Right.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And like some say that they didn't want to be in the way. I mean, Brian is an officer himself, right? Like better to stay put. Let police come to you. Except they like don't. I mean, it's Canton PD that is called to the scene that morning. And Sergeant Michael Lank is one of the first guys there. And he finally goes to talk to the Alberts after Jen McCabe wakes them up.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Like, I don't even know if you could call what he does an interview because he talks to them for a few minutes with Jen there. He doesn't record any of it and he doesn't do any kind of search of the house. According to Lang's report, he talks to Jen again at 9 a.m. when she calls him back and is like, hey, by the way, I forgot to mention that I heard Karen say she hopes she didn't hit John.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
1246, missed call from Jen to John. 1247, missed call from Jen again. 1250, missed call from Jen. Now, no one but the people who lived this story knows what happened next. But there are a few things that we do know for certain. We know that John got out of Karen's car. And Karen's car data shows that she put her car in reverse and backed up at some point.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
If you ask Jen, though, she called him back over to say, hey, I actually heard Karen say I hit him, I hit him, I hit him. Either way, everyone's doing this at 9 a.m.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Like, this feels extra critical. I know, I know. And again, I go back to there is a lot going on. It feels like something I would remember. I have never been in this scenario. True. Now, fun fact I haven't mentioned. You might already know this. A lot of people might know this. But Brian Albert's brother, Kevin Albert, is on the Canton PD force.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But if that wasn't already a conflict of interest, Lank, who was one of the first people on the scene, has his own deep ties to the family. In 2002, when he was off duty, he allegedly got into a fight with two other people that Brian's other brother, Chris Albert, was having problems with. And Chris Albert, by the way, is Colin Albert's dad.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So, like, these are all the same people we're talking about. So, like, Lank knows this family. But they do eventually recognize there might be some conflict, so they recuse themselves. but also still help out. And this is when they call in the state police. So enter Michael Proctor, who we covered at the top. And he has his own lengthy list of conflicts of interest.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But like I said, Canton's still being a pal. So even though the state police barracks are closer, when Karen's car gets seized that day, it is actually taken to Canton PD's sally port. Apparently, police say there was like more room there. It had heating, whatever. They have pics. It all adds up nicely. Pieces of the taillight missing from the SUV match pieces of the taillight in the snow by John.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
It's, remember, the prosecution's proof. But we also have the defense saying that she hid her taillight in John's driveway. And what Karen told everyone was that she had a broken taillight, not like a fully busted taillight. And all the video footage that could or should show that this is true doesn't exist. It's gone. Oh, darn. Well, that's OK.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Police say we have a video of when we process the car in the sally port of Canton PD. You'll see that we never even go close to the taillight. So we didn't like break it and plant evidence, which is fully the defense theory, by the way. that the taillight evidence wasn't found at the scene at the time of John's body.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
They don't find it until like 5.30 or 6 that night when like an emergency response team comes to help with the search. Like there's a little bit of conflicting reports on like what time they find the taillight. But the first crime scene photos documenting pieces of it in the snow show that it's clearly dark outside. And this is like January, New England.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So like the sun sets around like 4.55 that day. But it takes kind of a long time before more pieces are found and they are found over the course of like the next few days. So the defense theorizes that the reason they didn't find it earlier is that they had to wait until they had Karen's car in their possession to get the taillight pieces and then plant them.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So the defense has always thought it was planted. But again, police are like, oh, my God, you guys are being like so dramatic. Look for yourselves. They even play the video in court to show that no one ever goes near the right taillight.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Except in the actual most dramatic, oh my God, moment I've ever seen in like a real life trial, the defense team notices that the writing on one of the cars in frame, it's not even Karen's car, it's like this one that no one's paying attention to. The writing is backwards, which means that the entire video has been like flipped. Oh, like mirrored. Inverted. Yeah. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So when it appears that Proctor is seen standing behind Karen's left taillight. It's actually the right taillight. It's the right taillight. Oh, my God. Now, the problem still is you can't see what he's doing because the camera is on the other side. And there is a camera that would show what he's doing over there. Don't tell me the video is missing. part of the video is missing. Of course it is.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But here's the thing. Why would Michael Proctor frame someone? Sure, he notes the Alberts, but like, he doesn't know Karen. That's a huge leap. He wouldn't have anything against her. Hmm. Like, he shouldn't have anything against her. Yet that federal investigation found some legit terrible conduct on his behalf in relation to Karen.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Then she drove off, eventually ending up at John's place for the night.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And the stuff that they found was like just the stuff he put in writing. Like he had texts with his sister talking about the case very early on. And in one, he said that he hopes Karen would die by suicide. And he wasn't just talking to his family. Here is Michael Proctor reading texts that he sent about Karen and Brian Albert to a group chat that he had with his high school buddies.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And he's reading it here on The Stamped.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And here he is reading a text that he sent to his bosses while supposedly searching Karen's phone for evidence.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Alan Jackson hammers Proctor over these texts, which were sent well before Karen's been charged, by the way. And they are the worst. This guy is the worst. And I think we all should be making a big deal about these text messages from a law enforcement official who has got the lives of people literally in his hands.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But for me, personally, I did have to roll my eyes a little bit for one reason in particular. The person who was lecturing Proctor about the way he viewed women, the way he viewed Karen Reid, was maybe not the right person to stand on that soapbox.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Like, I think maybe Alan Jackson should have, like, left that part to his co-counsel, Yannetti, or even, like, there were other, like, lawyers that were working with them, too. Because it was a little hard for me to really buy his outrage and disgust when it wasn't all that long ago that Alan Jackson was defending Harvey Weinstein. Right. Right.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So, like, tip for trial number two, maybe leave the grandstanding to someone who hasn't been on the wrong side of history when it comes to the Me Too movement. I don't know. What do I know? I'm a podcaster. Still, Proctor defends his investigation. He calls his texts juvenile and regrettable, but says that they didn't have any impact on how he investigated John's death.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Well, not the whole night, but, like, after she left, like, most certainly. Yeah. And I actually want to play some of them for those who don't know what we're talking about.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But Proctor's own texts implied that he didn't really look at anything objectively. I mean, when a friend asked him if the homeowner, meaning Brian Albert, will, quote, receive some shit, Proctor responded, nope, homeowner is a Boston cop too. And only 17 hours into his investigation, when one of Proctor's friends text him, she's fucked, right? He replied, correct.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But Proctor testifies that he meant the, quote, overwhelming amount of evidence, end quote, already showed by then that Karen hit John. Proctor's texts weren't the only thing Jackson called into question. Proctor had testified under oath that he didn't know any members of the Albert or McCabe families.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But when Jackson asked him directly, Proctor admits that the Alberts have been over to his parents' house before and that he's even been at his parents' house when the Alberts were there. Oh, and just fun fact, Colin Albert was once the ring bearer in Proctor's sister's wedding. Oh. Yeah, and again, like, it goes deep.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Proctor even asked Brian Albert's sister-in-law, Julie, to babysit his son as recently as 10 days before John died. So, like, they are clearly more than just even acquaintances. Like, you're trusting with your kid. They're kind of, like, just in the same circle. I know. And even after that, Julie and the Proctors, like,
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
keep talking so like it gets kind of weird three days after John died there are texts between Proctor and his wife in which his wife says that she just ran into Julie and she writes quote Julie said when all this is over she wants to give you dot dot dot a thank you gift and apparently Proctor responded that the gift should be sent to his wife and not him
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So that is who is doing the investigation. And the people who collected all the evidence that they wanted to use to prove this case that this investigator is making, honestly, they didn't do much better. This part is less conspiracy and more just sloppy. To get to John and all the evidence, they used a leaf blower. I'm sorry, what leaf blower?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Yeah, they used it to like blow off all the fresh snow and get down to like the layer like they presumed it was all on the ground. I don't know where John died, which like, yes, I get it. But no, I don't. And it's on the ground where they find all those clear pieces of glass, which they later assume is from that cocktail glass that he walked out of the bar holding.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
They also find some like blood in the snow. Obviously, they want to collect all of this as evidence, right? Like, oh, no, they don't have any evidence bags. So for some reason, they go knocking on a neighbor's door, not even the door of the homeowner whose lawn they are on, who let me remind you is a cop. No, they just go knocking on some random neighbor's door.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And apparently they ask if they have anything they can use to collect evidence. And that neighbor gives them a like sealed package of Red Solo cups that they start using to like scoop everything up in. Like Red Solo cups, like beer pong cups. Fully. But like, don't worry.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Once the evidence is in those cups, they store the cups super securely because they put them inside a brown paper grocery bag from a stop and shop. Wonderful. Yeah, I know. And so while we're on the topic, though, of evidence, let's talk the autopsy. So just a reminder from earlier. So the medical examiner found that John suffered a lot of injuries.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
We have several abrasions on his right forearm, cuts to the left side of his nose and above his right eye, two inch laceration on the back of his head, multiple skull fractures that caused bleeding in his brain, two black eyes. Now, he has those injuries on his arm, but he doesn't have any broken bones or fractures from the neck down.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And the ruling was that he died of blunt impact injuries to his head and hypothermia.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Well, at the time, the prosecution, or at least in the first trial, was, like, I think arguing that Karen hit him This sent him like flying back and he maybe hit his head on the ground. Like that is what would cause the gash on the back of his head.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
In the documentary, I've seen some other people, not the prosecution specifically, but other people saying like another theory could be that like she hit him, the taillight breaks and like that caused a like abrasion in his arm. And then he's like disoriented and moves around and then falls.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So I don't know what we're going to hear in the second trial, if that's going to play into it or if they're going to stick with what they did the first time. But the defense says that the reason it doesn't look like other cases where a person was hit by a vehicle was because he wasn't hit by a vehicle.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So she's mad. She is also firing off texts at this point, telling John that she's going back to her house in Mansfield. She's leaving his niece and nephew home alone. Now, John's niece and nephew both actually live with him because he took them in after his sister and his brother-in-law both died in short succession of one another.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Some of their last witnesses that the defense calls are crash reconstruction experts who will honestly become a very hot topic down the road here. These experts had been part of the federal investigation and they were presented at the time as impartial witnesses in this case, meaning they said on the stand that they weren't paid by the defense for their testimony.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
It was completely like unbiased, right? So these experts testify that John's injuries were not consistent with being hit by a vehicle. The defense argues that John's head injury and black eyes come from some sort of fight and that the marks on his arm weren't caused by being hit by a car at all. Dog bites. The dog bites, yes.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
According to another of their witnesses, an expert in emergency trauma, the injuries on John's arm, they say, are likely teeth or claw marks. In their opinion, John had likely been mauled by an animal, possibly a large dog. Which the Alberts had a German Shepherd mix. Right, Chloe.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So Jackson argues that at some point that night, before, during, or after whatever altercation happened at the Alberts' house, Chloe, the dog, attacked him.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So the Alberts say that they didn't rehome Chloe until four months after all of this, though. And not because of anything related to John, they say. They said that they sent Chloe to live in Vermont because she had gone after, like, another neighborhood dog or multiple neighborhood dogs.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And I think it's worth noting that, like, apparently lab techs did not find any canine DNA on swabs from John's sweatshirt, which had tears through it in the spots, like the same spots as the arm touch. Which, like, you know if, like, a dog is, like, coming at you, their slobbery is all get out. Right. So that doesn't really help the dog by argument. But they did find pig DNA? Yeah.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So experts who testify at trial say that that could have come from a food product, like maybe a pork-based dog treat.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Oh, interesting. Interesting.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Nicole says, Nicole Albert says that they had planned to move long before John's death and they had reached out to a realtor in like 2021. And then the sale was finalized in 23. So, again, like weird coincidence, they say. And I don't know what to make of that. There's a lot of things I don't know what to make of. Right.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So like the federal investigation, I think that we can like label this like area of episode stuff I think is weird, but didn't know where to fit in the episode. Question marks.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And listen, she's not actually going to end up leaving them alone, but this is what she's threatening to do. So she stays at John's and eventually falls asleep on the couch until about 4.30 in the morning when she wakes up in a panic. Now, it's Karen who alerts people in the morning that John never came home.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So there's just like little bits of things I want to hit on at a high level. And I'll just give you like the bullet points because we got a trial to get to people and I don't want to keep you here till tomorrow. So here are some fast facts. One, the feds found out that Brian Albert destroyed his cell phone a day before he received a protective order to preserve that phone and its contents.
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Now, he says this is just a coincidence. He was due for an upgrade, so he traded it in. Okay, fine. Been there. Brian Higgins. The phone stuff is harder for me to digest. So... He apparently asked another federal agent for advice on extracting phone data. And then, months later, drove to a military base, disposed of his phone, and destroyed his SIM card.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
He claims this was because the target of an unrelated investigation had his contact info. Seems like you could maybe just, like, change your number and not destroy your phone on a military base that state officials couldn't get access to, but, like, whatever. Yeah.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Now, obviously, at some point, this like flurry of texts and calls we had with everyone in this group like that they were doing during the first day, like stop. But the defense alleges that this group of conspirators was still in communication in the early days to coordinate and, quote, get their story straight. And they use one example in particular.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So on the stand, Jen reiterates the big beats of the case that we've talked about already. But during her cross-examination, something new comes out. Jen says that on January 30th, so this is the day after John dies, she was with Carrie Roberts, who, reminder, she's the third woman who was there when John was found.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Carrie and Jen go to drop Carrie's daughter off at a friend's house, a friend whose father is Canton PD Sergeant Michael Link, who testified about evidence collection at the scene. And apparently when Carrie and Jen go to the house, Link's wife came out to talk to Carrie and she got into the car with them and stayed in the car for an hour talking to them about John's death.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So this isn't like a quick little chat? No, not at all. And Jackson points to that. Like, he says this is something that Jen never even mentioned until a pretrial meeting in the DA's office. Now, Jen claims that this is just a situation where two friends, Carrie and Lenk's wife, were talking about a traumatic event that just occurred.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But the defense views this as another example of conversations that Jen and others were having in the aftermath of John's death, where they might have all been trying to, like, get on the same page. And I want you to remember the defense doesn't have to prove what happened, right? Like the burden of proof is fully on the Commonwealth.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But I think that Karen and her team knew that they needed to put forward an alternate theory because her hitting John feels like the obvious answer to most people. So their theory, as I told you before, revolves around the allegation that some sort of fight ensued between Brian Albert, Brian Higgins, and Colin Albert. And at first, nobody says that Colin Albert was even at the house that night.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Like, she first wakes up his niece asking her to call Jen McCabe because John didn't come home. She needs to find him, but she doesn't have Jen's number. And she's reported to have sounded panicked. And she was talking maybe about a fight that they'd gotten in.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And there's no phone data putting him there at the house that night because investigators never collected his phone data. But eventually, he tells police that he was there earlier in the night, but he says that he never saw John. And here's another weird little ditty. Like, I told you from the get, prosecutors' theory is that John never entered the house, right?
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Like, that's been everyone's consistent story. Right. No one saw him after he left Karen's car. So here's this weird thing. So apparently when Brian Higgins testified before the federal grand jury, he said that he might have seen a tall, dark-haired man come into the Alberts' house. And John O'Keefe was a tall, dark haired man.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So a lot of people think that Higgins was describing seeing John in the house that night, like just in case it comes up that he was there. So he didn't like lie in front of a grand jury. But later, when Higgins gets grilled about this on the stand, he says that he could have been talking about maybe the brother of somebody at the party when he said that. But anyways, back to Colin.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
At the time of John's death, Colin was still in high school. By the time it goes to trial, he's in college, and he comes to court to testify and says that he had gone to his Uncle Brian's house that night at around 10.30 or 11 to celebrate his cousin's birthday. He had a few beers, again, like Red Cop's house. He's in high school, like, not awesome, but whatever.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
He said he listened to some music, hung out, and then he texted a friend for a ride home, and he left around 12.30 a.m. That friend who picked him up was Jen McCabe's daughter, Allie McCabe. Allie says that she picked Colin up before any of the adults got back from the bar and that she was home from dropping him off by 1230.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But Karen's lawyers have pulled data from the app Life360, which I don't know if you use that for your kids, but like I'm very familiar with it.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And when she finally gets on the phone with Jen at 4.53 in the morning, Jen says she doesn't know where John is, but she will help Karen look for him. So Karen is going to meet Jen at Jen's place. And in the meantime, she calls another friend, Carrie Roberts. Carrie wasn't in the group that went out the night before. She's just a good friend of John's.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And this app shows that Allie was driving around until like 1.30. Now, in court, she just offers like, well, maybe her excuse is like the data is off. She's like, I wasn't connected to Wi-Fi at the time.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
I know. This is what I'm saying about this case. Like you can make sense of like one or two things that are like wonky or like weird. But like all the footage can't be missing. All the data can't be wrong. Like all at the same time.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
I mean, they bring up those texts between Karen and Brian Higgins. They kind of suggest that maybe Brian Higgins might have felt like Karen was blowing him off that night. It got under his skin. Like, they've been having this flirtation over texts. They even kissed. Like, it felt like all of this was building to something. But then Karen shows up at the bar he's at with his friends with John.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And then she doesn't pay much attention to Brian. Though, I mean, worth noting on the stand, when they asked Brian about all this, he's like, whatever. Like, yeah, we texted, but, like, no hard feelings. It wasn't serious. Like, I don't know. So maybe feelings are just, like, bubbling under the surface more than anything. And, again, I don't even think they're, like, thinking this is motive.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Like, he was going after John. I think they're just trying to show some, like, animosity. Like, why would he maybe jump into something else that happened? Though they don't say that explicitly. They focus mostly on Colin as the possible, like—
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
catalyst to all of this and it's important to note that Colin had reportedly had issues with John in the past Colin's family lived near John and in the spring of 2020 John's security alarm went off and when he woke up and he went downstairs he found Colin and several other teenagers in his front yard and Colin yelled at John and like apparently had some choice words for him now John never called the police but Karen says that there was bad blood between Colin and John after that
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Now, Colin says that they never had any beef, but it's the defense's position that Colin had a history of being a hothead and was part of an assault on John that happened inside the Albert house and that the Bryans then after this brought John out into the snow.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And to like try and like form this picture, Jackson actually pulls up what he insinuates is proof that Colin threw some punches that night. He finds a photo of Colin out with his friends like weeks after John's murder, in which you can see that his knuckles are like red and raw. Now, Colin says that he had slipped on ice, which like everyone's like at the time.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
I remember when this like came up in trial, everyone's like, How do you when you fall like you fall down? I've never fallen knuckles first. Right. It doesn't make sense to me. I don't know. And I have a problem with this like alternative theory. Like we know that part of what contributed to John's death was hypothermia. And I know like a ton of people aren't on board with what I'm about to say.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But like I have a hard time believing that a group of people. who were either friends with or like barely knew a guy, would like take him out to the snow to let him die if something else happened. But I also, like, don't get me wrong that I'm saying, like, I totally believe everything that they're saying. Because, like, I think it's very clear that people are lying.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But Karen just wants more people to help look for him.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So then the question to me, more than anything, is, like, what are you lying about?
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Yeah. I mean, I think everything they put forward about that, like a lot of stuff in this case, could go either way. Because what the data shows is that after 1220, around the time Karen says that she dropped him off, it says that John took 80 steps, which is like half a football field's distance, and then either went like up or down three floors. And that could be because he entered the house.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Right. So on the phone with Carrie, she is so panicked that she's saying she thinks John is dead. So while Carrie makes her way to meet up with Jen and Karen, she is also calling like non-emergency police lines to ask if there's been any snowplow accident. She's calling local hospitals, but no one has any intel on John O'Keefe.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
The problem with that is GPS data from his phone apparently shows that he was in the car a half mile away from the Alberts' house when that movement was actually logged. Honestly, like, I probably should have known this already, but, like, I feel like tech isn't nearly as reliable as I thought it was for tracking stuff like this.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Like, this case has made it scary to me, and it's, like, almost like a beware ye future jurors, not just on this case, but, like, any.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
I know. So, like, what does the data mean? How does it all come together? How does this puzzle fit?
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
fit if it does yeah because like i've spiraled every which way i can about this case like did he go into the house and something happened call it a fight call it an accident whatever and then maybe like did they tell him to like get out of here not realizing how bad off he was and then he collapsed in the snow But like that doesn't explain all of it.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Did Karen really hit him accidentally or otherwise? And then the investigation was super sloppy, maybe even corrupt. Proctor trying to make like an easy win and then everything else was about covering up the nonsense. But that also doesn't really explain everything. Nothing explains all of it.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
One of the other pieces that I think is worth mentioning because it's huge when it comes to the prosecution's case is one of the things I brought up in evidence that they point to is the hair that they found on Karen's car that they said links to John. Right. Like this is proof that she hit John with her car. Right. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Now, once all three women are back together, they drive back to John's. In that new documentary I told you I just watched, Karen says it was actually Jen's idea for them to go back and look, which didn't make sense to Karen, she said. But I don't know. Like, they didn't fully look. She said, I was there. He wasn't.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And he was the kind of guy who never missed opening day at Fenway Park. John had been a Boston police officer for 16 years and was loyal to his fellow officers.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But, like, I think Jen's probably thinking, like, he could just be passed out somewhere, right? So they go back to his house. They look around. He's nowhere to be found. So they head over to where Karen says she last saw him, outside of the Alberts' home.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Now, at this point, it's around 6 a.m., snow is still coming down, they've all had very little sleep, and Karen is in a full-blown panic in the backseat. Presumably made even worse when Jen says they never saw John the night before. And Karen starts going on about how drunk she was the night before and that she doesn't remember anything and that her taillight on her SUV is cracked.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And Jen and Carrie find themselves being asked by Karen, could I have hit him? Did I hit him? And when they near the Alberts' house, Karen begins literally like kicking at the door, shouting, there he is, he's right there. But Jen and Carrie can't see anything.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And he especially loved being an uncle to his niece and nephew. And he became their guardian after his sister died of brain cancer and then their father died of a heart attack. John's niece and nephew have been left to mourn another parent figure, and they're now being raised by John's parents, who, after the mistrial, filed a wrongful death lawsuit against Karen.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
They also filed it against the Waterfall Bar and C.F. McCarthy's, seeking $50,000 in damages for pain, suffering, and emotional distress. But a judge has put all of that on hold until Karen's criminal trial is over.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
At its core, this is a case that presents the question of whether a crack in an SUV taillight is cut and dry evidence of murder, or if it exposed a crack in the system, a system that was ripe for a cover-up that spanned agencies across Massachusetts.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Now, I've talked a lot about the details in this case and how those details have been interpreted by a million different people, a million different ways. I know there's a lot to process. I mean, even the actual jury on this case couldn't see a clear path forward. But I know us crime junkies always love to go a layer deeper. And so I want us to be locked in on this retrial together.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And that's happening here in the next couple of weeks. So I want to try something new this time. We just started a new Crime Junkie Jury page on YouTube where we are going to be streaming the trial and discussing what goes on every day with you. And you're going to have Brandi Churchwell there.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Like I said, she's like an expert in this case, watching along with you, explaining the things that are happening. So don't feel like you have to come in as an expert. This is your way to like get in and follow what's going on in real time. And you're not going to want to miss it because I have a feeling we're in for another,
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
I mean, they just see snow until Karen like launches herself out of the car and runs over to a spot in the Alberts' lawn, like near this flagpole they have, where sure enough, after like brushing away about six inches of fresh snow, they find John. And Karen throws herself on top of him and is like lifting up their shirts to try and exchange body heat, warming him up.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
long ride you can find all the source material for this episode on our website crimejunkiepodcast.com and you can follow us on instagram at crime junkie podcast we'll be back next week with a brand new episode Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And this time around, I want the crime junkies to join in as well. So I'm going to catch you up. I want to tell you everything we know about the death of John O'Keefe, everything we know about the prosecution's case against Karen Reed and her defense's rebuttal, so that you can be fully prepared for the second trial that's starting soon.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
She makes a comment in the new documentary that she like pulls a piece of glass out of his face, which like it's the first time she mentions this, by the way, but like pulls a piece of glass out and he's bleeding. And she's just freaking out trying to figure out what to do. And this is when Jen calls 911 at 6.04 in the morning.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Okay, thank you. Now, I know that audio is a little hard to make out, but Karen is obviously panicking in the background. I mean, to the point that the dispatcher actually asked who he can hear in the background while he's trying to get all the details of what's going on. And Jen tells him it's John's girlfriend. So we know it's Karen that's yelling.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And I have a way for you to follow along with us through that second trial. We're going to be doing a trial watch along with my friend and fellow podcaster Brandi Churchwell, who has become quite literally an expert on this case. Now, she's not a lawyer. She is a layman like you and me, like the jury.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And Jen also tells the dispatcher that they don't think John is breathing. And the dispatcher tells them to start CPR. So Karen starts that until Canton police and paramedics get there, which is like a few minutes later. And they're all probably shocked to find out that the man lying in the snow is one of their own. Now, John isn't Canton PD.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
Like I said, he is a 16-year veteran of the Boston Police Department. But he lives in Canton, and Canton is a small town where, like, most everyone knows each other. So the pressure is on to try and save John. They rush him to the hospital and Karen is actually brought to the hospital too because she is threatening that she might take her own life if John dies.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But try as they might, John can't be saved. And by 7.50 in the morning, authorities deliver the heartbreaking news that John has died. And the investigation into his death officially kicks off with a man named Michael Proctor at the helm. And boy, would that turn out to be a mistake.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
At the scene where John was found, Canton police officers battle continued snowfall as they try and sift through the inches of white powder on the ground to look for and collect evidence. Now, meanwhile, State Trooper Michael Proctor has already began talking to people, and he's hearing bits and pieces of a fuzzy story. But the outline is there. Everyone's been drinking. It's a snowstorm.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
People are drinking and driving in a snowstorm. He's told that Karen dropped John off, but John never made it in. He needs to talk to Karen. I mean, lots of people are talking about Karen, about what they say came out of Karen's mouth that morning. But Michael needs to talk directly to Karen.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So according to a paramedic, yes. They say they actually heard her say it three times. I hit him. I hit him. I hit him. But cops don't know that yet. Now, by this point, Karen has been released from the hospital and they did a blood test while she was in there. And the results were that her BAC was 0.07 to 0.08 percent, which is just around the legal limit.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And mind you, this is hours after she reportedly stopped drinking.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
But she's been released by this point. She's at her parents' place. Like, she had actually gone there after first going to John's house. I mean, that was basically her second home. But John's family was all there. And she said, like, when she got there, she did not feel welcome. So, like, mom and dad's house it is.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
So that's where Michael Proctor finds her and her SUV, which they seize as part of their investigation. She tells Proctor and another sergeant that he's with that she and John were fine. Now, they did get into an argument that morning on the 28th over like what she gave his teenage niece for breakfast, like one of those dumb fights that couples have.
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INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And she'll be doing live watch alongs and daily recaps on our new YouTube page, Crime Junkie Jury. But before we get back to court, I'm going to present to you the two versions of the same story that we heard last time. and you get to decide which one is true. These are the stories of the death of John O'Keefe. Here's what we know for sure about January 28th and 29th, 2022.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And then that night, she and John met up at the bars. She dropped John off at the Albert home, made a three-point turn, and then headed back home. And then in the morning, she spotted a broken taillight on her car but wasn't sure how it happened. Now, we know that this first meeting with Karen fed into investigators' brewing theory about her culpability.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: The Death of John O'Keefe & The Trial of Karen Read
And the investigation Proctor leads over the next week or so only feeds the fire even more. Back at the scene, other officers had begun finding physical evidence around the area where John's body had been. When he was carted off, he was missing one shoe, but that got found nearby along with his hat,
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And the story I have for you today is about how a young woman's senseless and violent murder shone a light in all the darkest parts of one small northern Manitoba community. And it put a whole town on trial. It's a story that is just as important to hear today as it was over 50 years ago when it happened.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
I know. I know. I feel like. I honestly. And, like, you can't pin down the time. Especially, like, now, like, knowing he has a son. Again, they're like, oh, Bud's a good guy. Okay, well, what about the son? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Follow-up questions, at the very least. Podcasters have them. These police did not. Like, still, they are very much like nothing to see here, folks.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And just like that, this lead, their only lead at this point, just fades away.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Well, yeah, yeah. They're like, oh, this one that actually makes sense. We have one registered in this area where it happened.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Yeah. Either they're discounting his sighting or they're like, oh, him seeing the car. Means nothing. Maybe the car wasn't. That's discounting the sighting. Well, I mean, they could think that the sighting happened. Do you know what I'm saying? Can I make a sense? Or am I not understanding you? Yeah, but they're one person that it could be. Dude, stop. So after this, Betty's case goes cold.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
No one comes forward with new information. And since we're in 1971, we are a far cry away from DNA.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
I mean, I know that they took blood samples. They took photos of the footprints, some nearby tire tracks, like closer to her body. I know they took her clothes. Spoiler alert, though, like none of it ends up being useful later on. It's not. There might be forensic evidence on it, but it's not what we're going to end up relying on. Cool.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Now, her cooling case doesn't go entirely cold because the following year in May, police get an anonymous letter postmarked in Marquette, Michigan, April 28th, 1972. Now, I found the letter in the report of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry of Manitoba. What a mouthful. Yeah. But it's like one of the most important letters we get in this case. So, Britt, I'm going to have you read it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
She's naked with only boots on her feet and she's all bloody and badly beaten. So Kenneth immediately runs back to get his dad and the two of them jump in the car. They drive to the closest place, which is I think this airport, to call police. But as luck would have it, there's actually an RCMP officer, which we know, Royal Canadian Mounted Police. He's on site when they get there.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
So I feel like all roads are leading back to Lee, right? Yeah. It might be worth, I don't know, talking to the kids since they have not yet, but not so fast. First, they don't just put it away, but they try and do some digging to validate what is in this letter. They confirm that the three guys named in the letter, so Lee, Jim, and Norm, who were 18, 23, and 25 when Betty was murdered...
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
All three are known to hang around together. They're also able to place all three of these guys at the Legion dance on November 12th. Where Betty was. Betty was. That's one of the last places she was seen. Did she know them? So, no, not, like, well, the only one in the group who might have known her or at least known of her was Lee because he'd been in one class with Betty at high school.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Sometimes he'd play volleyball and basketball with her boyfriend, Cornelius, and she would be, like, you know, watching her boyfriend play or whatever. But, like, they for sure weren't friends. Just in this area might have, like, known each other's names, right? Cross paths. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, police track down Lee and Norm first.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
They both live in the PAW and they both flat out deny having anything to do with Betty's murder. Surprise, surprise. Jim is a little harder to track down. The Justice Inquiry report says RCMP speak with his parents in an attempt to locate him. Because I guess Jim has since moved away from the PAW. But it doesn't say if they actually ever questioned him. It's really strange.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And I mean, like, it's hard to, like, go full speed at somebody, especially after they leave, because the only thing they have right now is circumstantial, like, evidence. It's just a letter. Yeah, witness statements. Yeah. So detectives go back to that thread that they never pulled on, the Colgan's car.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And when they actually do go look at it, like, meaningfully look at it, guess what they find freaking right there? Bloodstains. And hair that looks like Betty's. Oh, and a bra strap. The same kind, or it looks like it belongs to the same bra as the one that they found in pieces at the crime scene. And this is what, like six months later? Seven.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
I'm assuming it's still being driven, and we're not talking... So here's the thing. We're not talking like huge bloodstains or chunks of hair. It's more like a few strands. I think maybe a couple small bloodstains when they're really trying to process this car. I think one, if I remember correctly, the bloodstain was like on a strap underneath the back seat.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
So it's not something that I think they would have like, they're like, oh, look at all this evidence just like laying around. I think it kind of went hidden unless you were really looking for it. And even though it's not a lot, it is still not a good look. But when they go back to Lee Colgan with this evidence and they're like, hey, how do you explain this? He's basically like, so what?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Like, you found a bra strap and some blood. That doesn't prove anything. But what does it prove, Lee? Like, where'd the blood come from? He doesn't say. No, he doesn't say. He denies any involvement. And unfortunately... Even with what they have and this like anonymous letter, like it's not enough to actually do anything with.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
But I mean, you got to think if the letter writer is correct, it wasn't just Lee. Norm and Jim are in the car that night, too. And apparently there's someone else that they should be looking for. And on June 23rd, another anonymous tipster comes forward with another name. This new tipster gives police the name Dwayne Johnston. This is a local from the Paw who was 18 when Betty was killed.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
According to Lisa Preece's 1989 book, Conspiracy of Silence, this officer doesn't have experience necessarily as a criminal investigator. He's actually the pilot who's in charge of, like, the RCMP's air division or whatever.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Now, this name, Dwayne, was not mentioned in the letter. And he doesn't really chum around with these other guys either. But police do know who he is, mostly because he is associated with this group known as the Paw Bikers, who tend to get themselves in trouble with police, like, barely often. And what does he have to say? Dwayne refuses to cooperate.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Like he has a lawyer and the same lawyer also ends up getting hired by Lee, Jim and Norm. Oh, cool. Now, all of them refuse to talk. But I mean, the town's talking, though. Rumors are flying left and right. Stories of Lee getting drunk and telling whoever he's with that he was there that night. He knows what happened to Betty.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
But again, like we just have rumors and rumors don't get you a rest warrant. True, but what does bloodstains in your car get you? Not a whole lot in 1971. So it stays this way for 10 years. It's not until the summer of 1983 when a new investigator, Robert Urbanowski, cracks open Betty's case again. And in 1983, there's a little, not a lot, but a little more they can do with forensic evidence.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
So he tracks down all the evidence and resubmits it for testing. He interviews every officer who worked on the file over the last 12 years. He talks to police informants. He locates all four suspects who are by now kind of just scattered around Alberta, British Columbia, Manitoba.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And it turns out when he's going around talking to these people and people around them, they're still just out there talking about the murder of Betty Osborne. So Urbanowski knows this case is solvable. So he asked to investigate it full time. And RCMP is like, listen, knock yourself out. So there are a few things he does to get the ball rolling again.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
So this is a little further down the line in 1985. Now, one of the things he does is this whole wiretapping operation that, to make a long story short, doesn't result in much of anything he can actually use. So in the summer of 1985, he puts an article in the local paper asking for the public's help solving Betty's case.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
But he still heads down towards the lake with them. Like, he'll take a first, like, look at all of this. And he's also keeping in mind, like, I need to be careful not to do anything that would disturb a potential crime scene. Preserve things. Right. Right. And when he gets there, it like very clearly is a crime scene. So he has to call in backup.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
He says he believes she was lured into a car, taken to the lake where she was killed. And he even in this like post addresses the fear of retaliation that has kind of permeated a lot of the rumors surrounding these four guys. But he assures the public, listen, any tipster who comes forward, you will remain anonymous. And this works, like the floodgates open with tips.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And the first person to come forward is a woman named Andrea, who, according to Bill McDonald's reporting for the Winnipeg Sun, tells detectives that she heard Dwayne Johnston brag about the murder at a party one night back in 1972, back when she was 14. She says that at one point during this party, Dwayne stood up, he whispered,
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
made stabbing motions with his hand and admitted to stabbing her over and over. And he was laughing about it and later said that it felt great to kill someone. There's a second woman that comes forward and says that she too heard that Dwayne had killed Betty. But one of his friends threatened to kill her if she ever told anyone.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Then the third witness that comes forward is a local sheriff named Gerald Robertson. And Gerald tells Urbanowski that he'd been drinking at the Legion one night with his buddy Lee when the bartender brought over a vodka and orange juice and set it in front of Lee. And he's like, this is courtesy of the RCMP. That drink is called a screwdriver. That's a screwdriver.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Apparently the local cops used to do this to Lee like all the time for years because like they always felt like he was not only the person, but in the group of people who are the persons, like he was potentially the weak link or like. In their chain of silence, he was the one that maybe they could break. Like, if they could wear him down enough, maybe he would talk one day.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
So Gerald's sitting down with him. He gets this screwdriver. After the drink arrives, Lee gets really upset, and he just starts telling Gerald. Again, not like he's not doing this all around. People have been hearing these rumors for so long. He starts telling Gerald about how he was there, how police won't leave him alone ever since. And at that point, Gerald, like,
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
hustled Lee out of the bar into his camper where they had another drink. He's like kind of like, I don't think trying to open the floodgates even more. And He gets him to just start talking. Lee tells him the whole story of Betty's murder. I'm sorry, when is this happening? This was the drinks and stuff like at the Legion. This is happening in like 1977 or 78.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Now, it takes some time to get investigators all the way out to where they are. But by 1.45 in the afternoon, they have a team on site who is processing everything, gathering evidence. The victim looks to be in her late teens. She's small with kind of short, shaggy, dark hair that's kind of matted in clumps. Her skin is swollen and purple and she is pale.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
A sheriff. Not like the sheriff in charge of the investigation, but... But still a law enforcement officer. Mm-hmm. Why are we talking about it so many years later then? I don't know. I imagine he feels like he's getting the same, right? Like, this isn't the first time he's opened up. I imagine he feels like he's getting the same story that all these people around town have been getting.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Surely, police must know about it. Like, we see that all the time.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Right, right. But now that they're like, again, this... Request for information opens up. This guy calls in to be like, just to make sure you know that this happened. And they're like, no, we didn't know. This is helpful. So after Urbanowski submits everything he's learned to the attorney general's department, and despite not having much new in the way of physical evidence, charges are approved.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
I don't know what changed because, again, they don't have more now. Like, I don't know if the sources seem more credible. I don't know if the number of stories they have or people coming forward is just— But the witness statements are enough. Yeah. So Lee is arrested in October of 1986, followed by Dwayne Johnston's arrest a few weeks later. And what about the other two guys?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
So they're not arrested. There are a couple reasons for that. First of all, the people who come forward with information— None of them had anything to say about Norm and Jim. Like, all the stories were about Lee and Dwayne. And I don't know, they might be thinking that Lee, I mean, again, Lee's the one that seems like the weak link to them.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
They might be thinking that if they can get a confession out of him, then they can, if there was other people involved.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Exactly. But initially, Lee and Dwayne pulled out. They refused to tell investigators what happened that night, which is... is a far cry from how Lee, in particular, has been acting for the last 15 years. Again, I think they thought they were going to put pressure on him. And fold right away. Yeah, they're going to get the whole story.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
But he clammed up, refusing to implicate himself or his friends until right before his preliminary hearing in 1987. That's when he says, I'll give you everything. And I'll give you what you need to arrest Jim Houghton. But in exchange, I want full immunity. Full immunity. Full immunity.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And as painful as it is, without Lee's testimony, frankly, even with his testimony, the Crown prosecutor knows that the defense is going to run a freight train through the holes in their case. There is no slam dunk physical evidence. Like we are just starting to like think about maybe someday the idea. Right. Right. It would be another year before DNA shows up in the Canadian courtroom.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
So it literally is not a thing at this point. So what might be physical evidence today was just circumstantial back in the 80s. You have four possible suspects, each of whom could have been the one to kill Betty. Like, they need Lee's testimony if they're going to secure a conviction, any convictions, even if it means he walks away. So with his immunity secured, Lee spills his guts.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
He says that on Friday night, November 12th, 1971, he borrowed his father's car, and he, Norm Manger, and Jim Houghton went into town to drink and just, like, cruise around. They went to the Legion, then just drove around some, and then they met up with Dwayne Johnston.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
As the Friday night crowd was starting to thin out, they decided that they wanted to find an indigenous girl to party with, as in have sex with. And they were going to do this whether this was woman that they found consented or not, which just shows you what their intentions, I think, were from the beginning.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
According to Sherry Noreen's reporting for the Thompson Citizen, this whole driving around looking for a girl to party with, again, this is like an indigenous girl specifically, this was common practice around this time. And the girl they found on that night was Betty. But Betty had no interest in even talking to these guys, let alone sleeping with any of them.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
I mean, chest, head, neck, face in dozens of these tiny stab wounds. So it is clear that she suffered a vicious and brutal attack, one that went on long after she stopped fighting. And this might get kind of graphic, so content advisory, but investigators describe kind of this scene.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
But like I said, they're not going to take a simple no for an answer. So they pulled over the car. Dwayne got out to try at first to convince her to come with them. But when that didn't work, he forced her into the backseat and the car took off. At this point in the night, Lee says that Jim was behind the wheel with Norm in the front passenger seat.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And Betty was in the backseat between Lee and Dwayne. They decided to go to Jim's family cottage near Clearwater Lake. The guys are all still drinking at this point, and they were trying to get Betty to drink more too, but she was refusing. She was telling them that she didn't want to. She was begging them to let her go. And that's when things turned violent.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Dwayne began ripping off Betty's shirt and bra and started to sexually assault her. Now, Lee says he wasn't just like sitting back there watching. He was engaged in it too. He was groping her at this point. But Betty was not going down without a fight. She was clawing at them to the point where Lee says that he thought she was going to like gouge Dwayne's eyes out or something.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
So instead of stopping, he held her arms down. So Dwayne could continue assaulting her. Now, when they got to the cottage, they all got out of the car. And Lee says that he, Jim and Norm all stood around drinking while Dwayne kept going, kept assaulting Betty.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Well, at first, that's how he positions it. Like, I mean, again, we know he like holds her down in the car, but he basically like at first he says, yeah, it's all Dwayne. We're just kind of sitting there. We're not stopping it. But in the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry's final report, he does end up admitting that he took part in the beating at this point of the night as well.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Now, he says they weren't at the cottage for very long because Betty wouldn't stop screaming and they started to worry that someone was going to hear her. So they put her back in the car and they drive even farther out of town where they knew it would be deserted. Again, we knew they knew the area. Out to the lake. Mm-hmm. Lee says that when they got there, Duane took Betty out of the car...
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
but that the other three stayed inside and just kept drinking. He says every so often they would hear banging against the side or the back of the car. He was pretty sure that that was the sound of Betty being beaten even further. But again, none of them did anything to stop it. None of them did anything to help her. And Lee tells them that after five or ten minutes, the banging stopped.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And at some point after that, Jim got out of the car. Betty was still alive at that point. Like, Lee could see her when the interior light went on. More time passed, and then Dwayne came back to the car, reached under the seat for a screwdriver, and then he left again. Lee said that he and Norm waited a little bit longer before... But, like, it felt endless.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
So he climbed up into the driver's seat and turned the car around. And at that point, he says he yelled out the window for the guys to just hurry up. No one answers at first. So he's like, OK, we're going to leave without you. And then someone said back, just a minute. And not long after, Jim and Dwayne were back in the car.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
halo of blood that was around her head, almost like someone had stomped on her face and made it so the blood was going out of the tiny stab wounds that were made. I mean, it was that bad. The word that came up so many times over and over again in Lisa's book was the word frenzy. This was a frenzied attack. It looked like whoever did this was Angry and frantic, vicious even.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And then one of them, he doesn't remember which one, said simply, she's dead. Now, Lee says that he remembers the screwdriver being wiped off and thrown out the window while they were driving back into town. And he says they all parted ways once they got back to the PAW. But before he and Jim split for the night, they made this pact to keep whatever happened quiet between them.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And it's a pact that they later brought both Dwayne and Norm into as well. Now, the problem with this is that even with Lee's story, detectives still don't know who actually wielded the weapon that killed Betty Osborne. Now, they think the likeliest candidate was probably Dwayne for a couple of reasons.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
First, he's already associated with the bikers in the pop, which like they're not technically a motorcycle gang in the organized sense, but they're also not like polite, upstanding, law-abiding citizens either. Second, he is also well known in town for his racist views and his treatment of indigenous people, men and women alike.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And more importantly, he had been the guy overheard at a party that time talking about what it felt like to kill someone.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
That's the implication. Either way, it's enough to get an arrest warrant for Jim, which they do in March of 1987. Then later that year in November, Dwayne and Jim stand trial for the first-degree murder of Helen Betty Osborne. And this is just over 16 years after her murder actually took place. Whatever happened with Norm?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
He never gets charged. And listen, he said he was there, but he was super drunk. It was awful. He said he didn't have anything to do with it. And part of Lee's whole story was that Norm was so disturbed by what was going on that he like curled up into a ball underneath the dash just like... crying and whimpering. So, I mean, it still puts him there.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Like, it still puts you not helping, not stopping, not talking. But I guess they didn't feel like they had enough to actually take him to trial. So this trial against Dwayne and Jim, the only trial they're going to have to hold anyone accountable, this gets underway in November of 1987. Truly in front of a jury of the killer's peers, all white, made up primarily of working class men.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
The Crown argues that Dwayne and Jim, along with Lee and Norm, saw Betty walking down the streets in the PAW, forced her into their car, drove her out to the lake where she was beaten and sexually assaulted. And at the end of the night, they basically realized they'd gone too far, and so they killed her to avoid any kind of accountability.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
At trial, Lee Colgan was, of course, the star witness, along with Norm and several people from the PAW who'd been told about the murder over the years. I don't know, like maybe that freaking sheriff? Yes. So the sheriff is one of the witnesses who testifies at this trial about knowing, at least in broad strokes, the details of the crime and who committed it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And he becomes kind of a lightning rod, actually. So according to Heidi Graham's reporting for the Winnipeg Sun, after he testifies, there are calls for a full public inquiry, not just about this sheriff and his role in keeping this secret, but about the whole system. Yeah, thing and why it took so long for police to charge someone.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
So this sheriff ends up getting investigated by the attorney general. And within a couple of months, he's transferred to another job. Apparently, they'd wanted to fire him, but they weren't confident it would hold up with the employees' union. So, anyways, he's one of the witnesses who takes the stand over the course of this seven-day trial.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Each person telling the same story about the same crime committed by the same men. Information that they had known for well over a decade without telling police.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
It is later. And I mean, they do. But actually, the trial is far more about testimony than it is about physical evidence. Like I know they definitely bring forward all that stuff, the screwdriver, the blood, the hair, the backseat of Lee's car. But the physical evidence is very much like in the whole of this, like second to the testimonies.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And it feels all too familiar, even in 2025. This is the story of Helen Betty Osborne. It's a cold, gray morning in November 1971, and a 14-year-old named Kenneth is fishing with his father on Clearwater Lake in northern Manitoba. And of course, by fishing, when you're a kid, I mean he's like sitting there and sitting there. He's not moving. He's not talking. It's for hours.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And what's interesting is they did take time to hide her clothing because several items of hers were hidden under some rocks down closer by the lake. And the person who stabbed and stomped her and the person who's hiding her clothing might not be the same person because there are two sets of footprints, one on each side of the victim's body.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Which is part of why I think that it played like second fiddle. All in all, the jury deliberates for a grand total of, I think this is the lowest I've ever seen, 30 minutes. And the verdict, or should I say verdicts, this is a little surprising, Jim is acquitted and Dwayne is found guilty of second degree murder.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
It has a lot to do with who they are. Like, when you look at the makeup of this, like, Dwayne, the one guy who they get a conviction on, he has always known to be this racist lowlife, like, right up until his arrest. I mean, there were intimate partner violence rumors about Dwayne too, rumors that were denied by the women he'd been with. But it's not unthinkable.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
I think when they're looking at the people in front of them, it's not unthinkable that this guy might do something like what was done to Betty. But here's the thing, like, Jim, by the time that this trial comes around, again, this is like 16 years later. It's the by the time that's frustrating. Exactly. He's got a wife. He's got a good job. The kids, the white picket fence, the whole deal.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
I mean, Jim is literally like coaching his kid's hockey team and barbecuing with neighbors on the weekend. I think people just like, they're like, but he's a good guy. He's a nice guy.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
he's a nice guy is the reason it took so long to get here in the first place right like when they're like oh it's only this one guy's car but he's a nice guy right he's a nice guy is everything that's wrong with this case and again like i'm sorry do nice guys sit by while a woman is being murdered right like that's not a nice guy that's not a nice guy and not only like the thing you did but even keeping it secret all those years like what you did to betty's family too
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Yeah. And speaking of that, a mockery of justice, Dwayne was sentenced to life in prison for Betty's murder, which feels good. Yeah. But he only serves 10 years. And he was released in 1997. Wow.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Yes. Now what I will say is that I don't think the only cell is a prison. Like it gives me a little bit of solace that even when the system fails, sometimes there is something in the universe, even if it's a person's own conscious, that tries to set things right.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Like with Lee, for example, I don't think it's a coincidence that despite having every opportunity in life and the unwavering support of his family, even though by all accounts he didn't deserve it, Lee went fully off the rails after the murder. He kind of just spiraled into drug and alcohol use. He couldn't hold a job. He has all these run-ins with police, domestic violence.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And there's even drag marks showing that they pulled her by her arm. So it's not like it was her footprints and someone else's. This is someone else there, a third person.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And I mean, it gets so bad that after he was arrested, they had to hold him in a secure hospital room so he didn't die detoxing in a cell. So like those 16 years he, I mean, and more he had freed, I don't think they were happy years. He's since died and the others have kind of just faded into obscurity. I know I had the team try and find out what they were doing now, but like couldn't really.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
But I like I understand keeping a low profile because their names will forever be tied to this prolific case. A case that should not have taken over a decade to solve. And I think everyone knows it's their fault that it did.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
In April 1988, the government of Manitoba established the public inquiry into the administration of justice and Aboriginal people to look at the circumstances surrounding the investigation into Betty's murder. And the final report says it better than I ever could. So, Brett, I'm going to have you read it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Now, she didn't look like she'd been out there very long, less than a day, which is a lucky break because unlike in the warmer months when folks spend time at the cabins surrounding the lake, this area is pretty much deserted in November. Like, if not for Kenneth getting antsy, if not for his dad making them wait it out in silence, if not for the fish that day refusing to bite,
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Starting in 2021, a memorial fund was established in Helen Betty Osborne's name through the National Center for Truth and Reconciliation at the University of Manitoba. The goal of the scholarship is to provide financial support to full-time post-secondary Indigenous students living in Manitoba.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
But even more than that, these students are recognized for their dedication and commitment to dismantling, quote, the barriers of racism, sexism, violence, and indifference in society, including those impacted by the missing and murdered Indigenous people genocide and or survivors of gender-based violence, end quote.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Thanks to all of you who listen and who are in the fan club, AudioChuck was able to make a donation to the memorial fund in Betty's name. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
she may not have been found until the next spring, if at all.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Maybe. And if so, that means that the killers knew the area. But the question is, did they know the victim? Well, in order to find that out, they need to know who she is, which is a difficult task given the injuries to her face and her head. Over the next several hours, police will end up bringing in a total of 31 people to try and identify their Jane Doe.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
But no one can of these 31 people, like friends and family of potentially missing people. Now, in this time when they're bringing in person after person, there is a missing persons report that comes in from The Paw. The Paw is the nearest town about 25, 30 minutes away from this lake where they found the Jane Doe.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Now, this missing persons report is for a 19-year-old named Helen Betty Osborne who goes by Betty, according to the woman who files the report. And that woman is Patricia Benson. She is who Betty was living with. And I'll touch on that in just a moment, like the dynamic there. Now, according to what Patricia tells police, Betty hadn't come home after being out the night of November 12th.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
She is found on the 13th. So this is like really soon. Patricia's husband, William, is one of the 31 people actually who they brought in to potentially identify the Jane Doe. But even when they bring him in, he can't. I mean, that's how bad this is. But they're so bad, he also can't say that it's not her either.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
So they end up sending an officer to the Bensons' house to lift fingerprints from Betty's school books to compare to the victim. And that is when she's finally identified. Now, when her full autopsy is completed, everyone is truly shocked to learn what this young woman endured. I mean, it was almost unspeakably brutal. She had been stabbed a total of 56 times.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
11 of those were in the heart, and the rest were to her face and the back of her head. And according to Bill McDonald reporting for the Winnipeg Sun, he said that these stab wounds, I told you they were kind of like small, they were like a little strained, but he reported that they were most likely from a screwdriver.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Now, one injury to the lower back of her head stands out from the others because it is over two inches deep, and the weapon went through her skull immediately. and over an inch and a half into her brain. This is how severe this is. Her skull, her cheekbones, the roof of her mouth, all broken. Her lungs were damaged. A kidney was torn.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
She has bruises all over her body, which may have been caused by someone beating her with their hands or their feet or some kind of blunt weapon. And her injuries are so severe that it's impossible to tell exactly which one of these led to her death. and when during the attack she might have died. But this is, without a doubt, a homicide.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
So the next day, the investigators go back out to the area where she was found with a police dog. And about three quarters of a mile from the crime scene, they find gloves. They find a couple pieces of a white cotton bra. They find a paper bag. All of this stuff is covered in blood. And about a half mile from the airport, in a ditch, they find a flathead screwdriver also covered in blood. Oh.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
So this, they're thinking, has got to be their murder weapon or at least one of them, because it turns out that another screwdriver had also been found by a civilian. I guess this airport employee, he'd been like driving in the area on the afternoon of the 13th.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And he'd found like a whole different screwdriver on the road, which he had just like tossed in his trunk, thought nothing of it until he heard about the murder. So he brought that one to police. He feels like, you know, this could be really promising lead. There's actually a name engraved on the screwdriver, Hanson or Ranson, something like that. And I assume that one wasn't covered in blood.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
I don't think so. Or I would hope that he didn't just like a red flag situation. I would hope he didn't just like throw it in his car and be like, oh, now that I know about a murder, this screwdriver with blood. But I don't know that for sure. But either way, covered in blood, not covered in blood. They obviously like see the potential in this and they collect this as evidence.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Is this a second murder weapon? We don't know. Now, another lead that comes to police is in the form of this taxi driver named Philip, who tells police that he was driving along that same highway where the screwdriver was found sometime after 4 a.m. the morning of the 13th, after he had just dropped off two customers.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And he said as he's driving, he ends up behind a car that was like all over the road, just like zigzagging around. He said the driver was very obviously drunk, like the car almost went into a ditch at one point. And he says the vehicle was a white or a light blue car. And, oh, by the way, this doesn't happen in most cases, he got a peek at the license plate, which included the numbers 4 and 2.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
It helps, so... They go from, like, you know, every car, every light-colored car, to a list of 5,000 cars. 5,000-plus people with a whiter, light-blue car, and the numbers 2 and 4 somewhere in the license plate. But while one option is to go down the list... One by one, and maybe you'll get there in a few years. Like, you know, hopefully it's the first one, but, you know, you never know.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
The other option is to do some investigative work and use this list more as like a cross-reference, right? Which that's the route they decide to go in. And they start by retracing Betty's steps on the night of her murder. Now, quick backstory. Betty is indigenous and she wasn't living with her family at the time. She was living with the Bensons. I told you I'd mentioned Patricia Benson.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
She was living with them while she went to high school because she was born on a reserve where the schooling only went up to eighth grade. So she was taking part in this government sponsored program where indigenous students could board with a local family to finish high school. Which I can't even imagine. Like that has to be so hard. Like disruptive.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
You're already in this very like awkward time of your life. But Betty was super ambitious. She wanted to eventually go to college to be a teacher or a nurse or a lawyer. Like she had big dreams and she was working really hard to achieve them. So, her last night at the Bensons' home, the 12th, she ate dinner with the family at around 6, then she went out to visit a friend at the hospital.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
While she was there, she ran into an old friend of hers, this guy named George, and then the two of them decided to just grab a few beers together, head to the Bensons to kind of just catch up. Reminder, we're in 1971 Canada, my U.S. friends, like beers at 19. A-OK. Right. But by 10, 1030, Mrs. Benson said, like, listen, it's time to wrap it up.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
But Betty and George weren't ready to call it a night. So they head downtown where they meet up with a few more friends. Now, around 11, the crew is walking past a hotel and Betty saw her boyfriend with some other friends of his in the lobby of this hotel.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Her boyfriend's name is Cornelius Biggity, and author Lisa Preece actually interviewed him when she was writing her book, and she described him as kind of, you wouldn't guess it with this name, but like this Casanova playboy type, as evidenced by the fact that it wasn't just friends he was with that night. Cornelius was actually with another girl that night, and Betty wasn't happy about it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
The two of them had gotten into a big fight over this and it ended in Betty and her friends leaving. After that, they went back to the Bensons. They had a couple more drinks in a shutout back because, again, Mrs. Benson's like too late. And then around midnight, the other friends left and Betty and George went back downtown again. But by 1230, George was over it. It's cold. It was dark.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
It wasn't exactly a great time of night to be walking around in the PA, especially if you're indigenous and both Betty and George are. So George went home, but Betty didn't want to.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Yes, she was. And police can put her outside the hotel again at around 1245. She's just like walking by. Then we know she's seen at a Legion dance at around 2 in the morning. And they actually find a witness who saw her walking down the street after she left the dance. This was around like 2.15. Then after 2.15, she's like off the grid.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Initially, he's like the main suspect. They bring him into the police station. They question him. And they don't go easy. I mean, at one point, they even show him a picture of Betty's body. Like that's actually how he finds out that his girlfriend is dead. Like he hadn't known yet when they did that.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
He's like just hoping they might get a fish. So you can imagine Kenneth gets kind of antsy. So he tells his dad that he's just going to go for a walk, see if he can find any rabbit tracks in the snow or something like that.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
But ultimately, they end up ruling him out after he passes a polygraph, which we see all the time in the 70s. So they quickly move on, and by the end of November, they have talked to everyone in Betty's circle, all the cottage owners around Clearwater Lake where she was found.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
I mean, half the town pretty much has been talked to, and they still haven't got a clue who she was with after 2-15 or how she ended up all the way out at the lake. Because, by the way, someone would have had to have driven her out there. Like, she might have been able to walk from the Bensons to downtown and back. Like, that was super easy.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Yeah. You would need a car. It's like a 30-minute drive. So, like, it's not like she's making this walk. It's not even walkable, really. It may be, but certainly not in the dead of winter, right? At night. Right. So... With the good old gumshoeing, not getting them very far, they decide, okay, listen, we tried working it this way. We should maybe go back to our list of over 5,000 cars.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Maybe we actually just need to go down that one by one because we don't have anyone to cross-reference or everyone we are cross-referencing is getting ruled out.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
But still, they can't start at 5,000. They got to find a way to narrow it down a little bit. So what they decide to do, another fun 70s thing, they decide to bring Philip, the taxi driver, back in and this time put him under hypnosis to see if maybe he can remember a few more of the license plate letters. And this time he gives them four numbers, this time in sequence, 5-342.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Which narrows that list of 5,000 plus possible cars down to just 28. And even better, only one of them is registered to an owner in the pub. The owner is a guy by the name of Bud Colgan. And seeing his name is completely puzzling to police because they know Bud. Like good know him or bad know him? Bud's a good guy. Bud's got a wife and kids.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
Now it's about 11.30 in the morning and Kenneth is next to this pump house on his way back down to the lake when according to coverage in the Winnipeg Sun, some strange tracks in the snow catch his eye. And he's a curious kid, so he follows the tracks into the thick bush. The snow is crunching beneath him and that's when he comes upon the body of a woman.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
He's like definitely not your murder a teenager kind of guy.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
No, they say no. They're like, no, what a weird thing that he just ended up on our list. Like, I actually don't believe that they question Bud at all. Now, part of the reason might be because I know that his car had been stopped sometime around the time of the murder as a like part of a routine traffic stop. And at the time, it wasn't Bud driving. It was his son, Lee, who was driving.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And when I say around the time of Betty's murder, I can't find an exact date. So I don't know if this was like a routine traffic stop. Like, I don't think they were setting up roadblocks or anything like that. I don't even know If we're talking days or weeks or how they even like made the connection that someone saw his car. But basically they were like, oh, we saw his car around that time too.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Helen Betty Osborne
And there was like nothing fishy in the car. So can't be like, I know it doesn't make sense, but like it doesn't make sense. Like I think they use that as part of the reason to like write him off or write off the car.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And the story I have for you today is one that I've wanted to tell for a minute now because I found it in a super interesting way. So back in 2022, I covered the case of Randy Leach on the deck.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And according to the Bonner Springs Edwardsville Chieftain, he was also shown a dead body hanging in the cave that he said appeared to be a young man around six feet tall, weighing about 200 pounds, But whoever this young man was, like, his face was smashed. So he couldn't say who it was or if it looked like Randy or anything like that.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Now, how this guy got away, how he's able to tell his story, why they let him go, all of that is unclear.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Yeah. I don't know. So this guy passes several polygraph tests. And according to Fox 4, the Edwardsville police and a satanic expert are at least willing to take it seriously enough that they want to go search this cave. But this is where like there's a huge halt because I guess officials in Leavenworth County, this is where the cave was actually located.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
They threatened anyone with arrest if they searched the cave, even though these are like other officials. So Edwardsville has to just like back off and drop it. So I can't tell you if it's real or not because we don't know.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
I don't know if they were just being territorial, which if they were, you would think they would do it themselves. Or it's possible they're just writing the whole thing off. Because there is a caveat to this. So according to the Kansas City Star, at one point, this guy retracted his statement. He's claiming that he was high at the time.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
So I think a lot of people start to just write off that story as some like drug-induced hallucination. There are at least two sources that claim sheriffs eventually do some kind of initial search of these caves and find no sign of Randy, which is like obviously good. But one of those sources reports that there were some kind of markings that were found.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Some law enforcement agencies think they're satanic. Others think they're not. So it's unclear if the plan is to, like, keep looking into this, just letting it, like, die off here. It's a big question mark, right? But in the meantime, while they decide what to or not to do, others were looking at more logical explanations for Randy's disappearance. Back to the accident theory.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
The first thing she does after climbing out of bed is to check on her 17-year-old son, Randy, because she knows that he'd been out at a party the night before and she wants to ensure that her only child got home safely. Several sources report that his curfew was 1230 in the morning. Dad says he's usually home by one, like latest he's ever out was like 2 a.m.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
So there's about 10 miles between Randy's house and this farm where the party was. And if you map this out, there are a few bodies of water that Randy might have come across depending on which of the two routes he could have taken home that night. And obviously this is after they've like searched the road. It's not a ditch somewhere. So the next thing is they're thinking is like body of water.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Now, he could go north or south, and it sounds like the south route, which would be considered more of like the back route, is maybe where Randy could get in the most trouble. It would put Randy on what was known as Golden Road, which runs along the Kansas River. And at one point, it actually crosses over what was known as Stranger Creek.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Now, there's also a world where maybe Randy was so disoriented that he didn't even take the normal path home, which is why they have got to throw a wide net at this point. And according to the Lawrence Journal World, in the first two months after Randy went missing, police are searching everything.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
They searched the river, ponds, creeks, any sign for Randy or his car that either one went into the water.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
It would, except after putting a plane into the air to do aerial searches and everything in the water, there is still no sign of him or the car anywhere. So if he accidentally drove into a river or some ravine somewhere, where is he? And why weren't there any signs of a car going off the road?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Plus, if Randy lost control of the car and ended up in the water, what are the chances that he didn't hit like anything else that night, like as he's going in? Because there's no reporting of a collision in the area surrounding the house where the party was or anywhere else.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
So it feels, to your point, like Occam's razor, it feels like the logical explanation, but it still is not yielding any results or any answers. Right, and it leaves you with so many questions. Mm-hmm. Spring rolls into summer, and for Randy's parents, the investigation into his disappearance isn't moving fast enough.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
So they hire a private detective, but it doesn't sound like anything comes of that either. And the longer Randy is missing, the more rumors his parents must face in their small community. One source claims police were given a name of a guy that Randy might have left with that night, a guy who then dismembered Randy. But according to police, this guy was in prison when Randy disappeared.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Then there's speculation that maybe Randy OD'd or maybe he was murdered over witnessing a drug deal or maybe he was tied to a tree and then died of dehydration. But none of these cases can be confirmed.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Right. And I'm with you. Like, the problem is, it's still all rumors. Like, his parents can't go off that. All they can do is hope for a real break while kind of racking their brains for anything that maybe, like, seemed things that were, like, normal before Randy disappeared, but, like, are red flags now in hindsight. Mm-hmm. And they don't come up with anything earth shattering.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And according to the Lawrence Journal World, on most occasions, his mom would actually hear him come in at night and that would wake her up. Sometimes they'd even have a little late night conversation and then Randy would go to bed. But she didn't wake up the night before because she never heard him come in. And she's realizing now that's because her son is nowhere to be found.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
I mean, like, okay, he recently went through a breakup. He wasn't happy about like his playing time on the basketball team. Like these are small potatoes to parents. Exactly. Like you have a broader view on life, but they're, Big things to a kid. So they get to the point, honestly, his parents, where they're almost hoping maybe one of those things is the reason he left.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And he did leave on his own. He ran away. And they're hoping for that because that would at least mean he's alive. So they start going to places like Colorado, where they vacationed every year, thinking that Randy might have gone there if he did leave. And they're handing out posters. They're talking to residents. But there's no sign of Randy.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And as much as they want the idea of him running away to be true, eventually, like, they just know deep down it doesn't make sense. Even the one digital trail they had back then, his bank account, doesn't show any activity after he goes missing.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
According to the Wichita Eagle, Randy's dad, Harold, spends most of his days searching for Randy along the back roads and highways of Kansas, coming home each day empty-handed. So no matter where they look, in state or out, the outcome is always the same. Towards the end of the summer, the leeches get a call from authorities. And this call is one that they've been dreading getting.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Police have pulled a body from the Missouri River, which isn't far from Linwood where they live. But even then, it turns out it's not Randy. So back to square one. And this just shows you like the roller coaster that these families go through, right? Like satanic cult. There's a cave. There's a person in his class. He's found in a river. Like, You just go through this whirlwind of emotions.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And this goes on and on into the new year. And then in March of 1989, that's when police get what could be a potentially huge break in the case. Oh, and actually, this reminds me, I never got back to Steve, the guy that he was like with for a little bit that day. Yeah. So there is something weird I need to tell you about real quick. So we know Steve.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
He's the friend that was with Randy before the party. He's with him at like 830. They're going to look at the Mustang. Then we know they're not together when Randy gets to the party. TBD where Steve was.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Yeah. That's never reported on like where he was. But get this. According to the Lawrence Journal World, that first morning when Randy's parents woke up and discovered that he wasn't home, a Apparently, they saw Steve like driving 10 miles per hour past the house, which was on like a main highway. The speed limit was like 55.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And then he passes again by the Leach's house on the county road, like on another road that's like by their house.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Right. And that's why they're like at the time they didn't even like register it. They're like, oh, again, small town. Like, oh, we know him. They don't even know he's like really missing or how serious this is. And then like it's something they think back on later.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And listen, if you want to know if police ever asked Steve about this, so do I. Again, the sheriff's office doesn't seem inclined to want to answer specific questions. So just kind of like file away that weirdness as I tell you this next thing. So we're in March of 1989. Randy has been missing almost a full year at this point.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
He's not in his room, he's not crashed on the couch with the TV on, and I'm sure her already building anxiety spikes when she looks outside and sees that her car, the car that Randy was driving the night before, isn't there either. She goes and wakes her husband, Harold, and they immediately start calling around to friends, but no one has seen Randy since the party the night before.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And guess who finds a severed foot on the shoreline of the Kansas River? Shoe on it and everything. Steve? Friggin' Steve. He tells authorities that he was just like strolling along when he stumbled across this foot. Now, why Steve is strolling along the river, I don't know. But that's Steve's story.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And as wild as this is, it might mean nothing because the police determined that this is not Randy's foot.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
I don't know. What I know is that Fox 4 got a statement from the KBI saying, They said that at some point DNA testing confirmed it wasn't Randy's. So it's not just like a guess based on the shoe. DNA, not Randy's. Cool. But they wouldn't say whose it was. Which, to your point, like I feel like it's something like we should know. Maybe have a right to know.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Or at least the people of Kansas have a right to know. No? I mean, yeah.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Yeah, but maybe that's all it is. Like this just weird, odd detail in a story full of weird, odd details. And unfortunately, Steve's no longer alive, so we couldn't even go directly to him and ask him about it. And the hits just keep coming because about a year after Randy vanished from that farm, the farm burns down.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Yeah. Betty told us that when the house on that property burned to the ground, there wasn't a doubt in anyone's mind that it was intentional. And the Leavenworth County Sheriff, Herb Nye, says, quote, there might have been some suspicious origin to it.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Right. Like that's my thing, too, because we are like a year out. Why not? Like what would be the benefit of if it was intentional and related to Randy? Why now? There has never been anything said publicly to like indicate that they were going to search it or that something was there or that like nothing.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Nothing. Right. Now, we did talk to Betty a little bit about this. Again, she's, like, the family spokesperson. And she said, like, the consensus, like, among most people in the area, they do think it has nothing to do with Randy. But again, it's just one of those weird things.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
It's like... And again, is this a product of a small town where it's like, of course Steve finds the foot because he's one of 300 people. Right. If the foot's here, one of the 300 people have to find it. Right. And if it's a house fire, like, okay, like, the odds that it was somewhere he... like was recently... Is still pretty high because it's a town of 300 people.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
This is not that Randy Leach. It's a different Randy Leach. So when our reporting team was out first diving into that case, we realized that there were two Randy Leaches that were missing people. And it is finally time that I tell you the other Randy Leach's story because the circumstances are truly bizarre.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
What's suspicious and what's the product of being a small town? I don't know. Right. So by spring of 1990, this is now some two years into Randy's disappearance, with no new developments, his parents get very vocal about how angry they are about this.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
They point to a couple of things that they're frustrated with specifically, like the fact that the authorities keep passing them off from one person to the next, to the next, from... County attorney to the detectives, to sheriffs, to undersheriff and on and on and on. And they're also frustrated by how law enforcement is handling the case.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Alberta tells Fox 4 that it's only after that foot is found that the sheriff's office asked for some of Randy's clothing, but not a minute before. Again, like would have been great five weeks out when we were searching the place. And now that they have the foot that we know, you know, now to be not his, they're like, hey, it might be good for us to have something like this.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Harold and Alberta are frustrated that police will not give them access to the files as well. And that no kind of like formal inquisition, which is like similar to a grand jury, they're frustrated that no formal inquisition has been held to force people to answer questions under oath. Something that Randy's dad, Harold, claims authorities told him was going to take place like back in early 1989.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
According to another Lawrence Journal World article, they make a call to Alberta's brother, who is a police officer in the nearby town of Lawrence. And he heads out to the farm about 10 miles from the Leach home where this like outdoor pre-graduation bonfire bash was held the night before. That's what Randy was going to. Now, Randy's parents went out there, too.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
I think they're just thinking something happened to Randy. Like, they're just wanting any answers they can get, and they just don't think authorities have been aggressive enough to get those answers. And as far as the party goes, like, Harold does believe that there's discrepancies from that night. And as we've seen, I mean, it's a little hard to pin down Randy's movements.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
No one even knows exactly when he left the party, right? So what might the kids at the party or the parents who hosted the party say if they were under oath? Would it be different than, like, him hawing or whatever? Yeah. And let's not forget Steve, who's like popping up all over this story. What might he say under oath about the night that Randy disappeared?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
But this isn't to say that the Leeches are like focused on the party. When they come out and really start getting in front of the media, they also point to that story from the early days of the guy who said that he saw a body in the cave. They feel like that wasn't explored enough.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And they're obviously not the only ones frustrated because according to Harold, some police files mysteriously appear in his mailbox.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Yes. Now, what exactly these files point to is a little unclear. And we specifically asked Betty about what was in them, but she declined to share those details. And from what I can tell, no one has ever seen them. Like even years later, when his parents try to sue for the records in Randy's case, they don't appear to produce those files to enter them into evidence. So I don't know why.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
It's something that the judge actually points to when she denies them. She's like, you didn't even show us what you have. Because they bring it up and they're like, you want to compare it to what's there, what's not there. You didn't even show it. So it's weird how underlocking key these files are. And ultimately, all in all, the leeches don't get the inquisition that they were after.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
So Randy's parents are frustrated, maybe even a little desperate. And at one point, they even go on the Jerry Springer show to talk about Randy. The episode that they appeared on revolves around missing children and a psychic was involved. And this is what's wild. So off camera, the psychic tells the leeches that they think Randy is alive.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
But the minute the cameras come on, the psychic reverses course and tells them that Randy is dead, which, of course, like they just burst into tears.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Horrible and cruel. A whole bunch of other words I don't even want to say. But, like, I think, again, I think what this points to is just Randy's parents' desperation. Yeah. They will do anything. They will go on Jerry Springer if it gets the word out about their son who they're trying to find.
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MISSING: Randy Leach
We actually got to talk to Alberta's friend, Betty, who's kind of like the family spokesperson now. And she told us that when they got there, Harold noticed that the teenager who lived at that house was, and this is so strange to me, was like standing in the driveway in tears. But there's no sign of Randy. There's no sign of the car.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
According to the Lawrence Journal-World, in June of 1990, it's so bad that they send a petition with 12,000 signatures that they had collected to state officials to make sure Randy's disappearance continues to be investigated. Which when you think about 12,000 in 1990 that you had to do by hand...
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
These people were putting in the work, hitting the streets. I think, like, what it takes for us to get 12,000 signatures so we can, like, put something out on the waves, like, we still have to push.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Unbelievable. But, like, all this stuff that they're doing, like, it's building momentum. And it seems like a little bit of magic happens in July of 1990. Right. That is when a possible suspect in Randy's disappearance comes onto law enforcement's radar. Although I get the impression that this guy was never not on their radar. It's just the first time that things really pick up.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
All right, I want to back up and tell you a quick story so you have some context around this like potential POI I'm going to talk about. So according to the Lawrence Journal World, there is this guy named Everett Bishop. Everett lived on a property a few miles from Randy's home and he was from the same area.
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MISSING: Randy Leach
Apparently, Everett Bishop had been complaining to this friend of his that some teens were, quote unquote, terrorizing him. They're like shooting guns at his house. So this friend introduces Everett to an ex-con and all-around dangerous guy named Eric Montgomery. Eric is supposed to help protect Everett from these teens.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Well, Everett ends up going missing, and it's not long before the police come knocking on Eric's door. When they do, they discover that Eric is in possession of a stolen car, and that car leads them to this other guy, Cheryl Gary Brinkley.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Now, he's a car thief who was friends with Eric, and police suspect that these guys had something to do with Everett's disappearance, but they can't make it stick until they finally offer Eric a deal. And this gets into, like, some finger-pointing, right? Like, so Eric points the finger at Cheryl, blames him for Everett's May 1990 disappearance, and he says, murder.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Cheryl, of course, points the finger back at Eric, and during his trial, when he does... He, like, also just mentions that Eric had something to do with Randy's disappearance. Like, this is happening at the trial. So there's so much back and forth here. There's even a third missing man, but in the hopes of, like, keeping everyone with me here. Like, basically, I'll try and be concise.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
So basically, it said that Everett and this third missing guy were killed and put in barrels. Those barrels then never found. So maybe that might not even be true. But it got me thinking, could that have been what happened to Randy, too? But again, there's no evidence of this. Right, right. But like all the theories we have, there seems to be no evidence of it. Exactly.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Now, some of the defense teams try to get their hands on Randy's file to see if there is some connection there. Right. Like he just like blurts out this name and everyone's like, wait, what?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
So and it's not just that he's like he mentions him. What they end up finding out is that Eric was considered by KBI as a suspect in Randy's case. Like or at least that's what he says when he like blurts this out. But is it true? Is it not true? I can't tell you because the files are sealed.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
In fact, another strange thing is that there's no sign that a party even took place. Like everything had already been cleaned up and the mom of the kid who lived there didn't offer much help. Like she didn't have a whole lot to say. In fact, according to Fox 4 News, she just offered them a morning beer.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
In his car, right. So for what it's worth, Betty doesn't totally think that this is like a relevant line of inquiry because she doesn't think Randy was one of those teens. And she thinks there was a slim chance that Randy even crossed paths with Everett. She said maybe through a friend of his dad, like did some babysitting. I don't even know.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
You also have to think like, oh, did he just randomly run into him as he was like
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
drunkenly getting home from this party that nobody like sees him going missing from like all the things don't really line up for me everything has to be like so perfect for this right for them to even cross paths yeah they can't connect randy and eric together with any kind of certainty and while that's a lot to process it could be a whole lot of nothing like i said it's one of my least favorite theories but one that like people spend a lot of time on and i feel like it's one of those theories where they're it's a theory because there's nothing concrete
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And what I always say is like, what do I not know? Like if we got the files, maybe there is something really meaningful in there. But like we're all blind to it. I don't know. Eventually, Eric and this other guy both end up in prison in connection with the other disappearances. But Eric was never arrested in connection to Randy's disappearance.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And it's never even officially tied to him in any way, as far as I can tell. Like, they never make an official connection. Oh, and this is, like, another wild part. When you think about, like, the Leach's experience in all of this, they don't learn about all of this until, like, midweek. Many, many years later, they're not learning about this as this is happening.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
The way they find out about Eric and this whole group is there's like this group of three friends who just got obsessed with the case and they started doing like their own crime junkie style sleuthing. And they are the ones who found out about this and shared the details with his parents.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Hey, as two random people who started a podcast, yes. But anyways, back in 1990, the leeches are unaware of this development. And they're still focused on demanding more action. And so maybe because of that, in August of 1990, Leavenworth County finally decides to do a more thorough search of that cave in Edwardsville that the person had pointed them to years ago.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
So this time, they bring in search dogs. And once and for all, they want to put this rumor to bed that Randy's body was ever in this cave, as this one eyewitness claimed. Now, it doesn't appear that anything's found. But according to the Lawrence World Journal, Randy's dad says that he receives some photos purported to have been taken in this same cave.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And it's like a photo of a dead pigeon on a cross and strange markings on the walls. And there's apparently even like photos fire rings and tire tracks, but authorities refute that any of this stuff is actually found. So you can... And even if it was there... Years later.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Accurate. I mean, but you can see why. So this doesn't clear up anything.
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MISSING: Randy Leach
Like, again, we've got maybe weird stuff, maybe not all two years later. And it doesn't put anyone's suspicions or rumors to bed.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Right. And eventually, Betty told us that those caves get bulldozed. So it's not like any more answers are going to be coming. She said Harold was told that Levensworth County gave that order to bulldoze them. But then ultimately, Levensworth County said they had nothing to do with it.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
So, like, this just keeps coming back to the fact that the leeches, I feel like, can never get their heads wrapped around the truth. Like, even the stuff that should be simple isn't simple.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Yeah. So 1991 rolls in and with it comes a shred of good news. The governor at the time, Joan Finney, issues an executive order basically stating that law enforcement at least have some belief that maybe a crime has been committed in Randy's disappearance. And as part of this order, she includes a $5,000 reward. So it finally feels like a step in the right direction for Randy's parents.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
But next comes several steps back. The Topeka Capital Journal reports that after fighting for more insight into the investigative reports on their son's disappearance, Harold and Alberta get a whopping 60 pages to look over. And apparently in these 60 pages is just information that they had given investigators in the first place.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
They said it looked like there's no cups. There's no trash. Everything had been like raked up. Like so early in the morning, this party just like went away. We don't know why this young woman was crying. Again, could be something completely unrelated. I think this is something that I spiraled on so much because I'm like, I have a thousand questions for you if my son's missing. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And this doesn't appear to be anything having to do with like the files that they supposedly got in their mailbox, just like information that they'd shared over the years through like tips or their own interviews or whatever. Right. And to make matters worse, by 1993, those satanic cult rumors come roaring back. At this point, it's like the only consistent in this case, really.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And coming along for the ride is a show we all know and love, Unsolved Mysteries. So as we discussed earlier, the leeches were looking for any help they could find. And they get a little in the summer of 1993 when this guy named Terry comes into their lives. He says that he is a research journalist there to help prepare an episode of Unsolved Mysteries on Randy's case.
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MISSING: Randy Leach
So Alberta and Harold watch as Terry truly like investigates Randy's disappearance. He spends over several months like digging deep. And at one point, he even pools the information he's gathering with one of the detectives reviewing Randy's case. And to the leeches surprise, Terry appears to really help the case.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And in July, before an episode even is set to air or anything, police actually arrest three men in connection with Randy's disappearance. On the CrimeWire podcast, Rob, who we talked about earlier, he was that classmate of Randy's who police questioned. He claims that at least one of these men that were arrested was Randy's friend, Steve. Steve found the foot, Steve. Steve, Steve.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
But as quickly as these guys are arrested, they're back on the street. Literally, I think, within like two days. Wait, what did they have on them to begin with? You don't know, do you? I don't know. No, so here's the thing. So, no, something really funky happens here.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Because when they're released, police just say that they had brought the guys in for, quote, investigative purposes, whatever that means.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Yeah, and the Lawrence Journal World, according to them, arrest warrants were issued by the assistant Leavenworth County attorney. Okay. So it sounds like these were legit arrests.
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MISSING: Randy Leach
But I think they were covering their ass after the fact, and like I said, trying to really downplay it, because Terry's involvement in this whole thing begins to unravel. And it all starts with him holding this, like, three-hour press conference the next day describing what his investigation uncovered.
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MISSING: Randy Leach
Three. It's like, what is this, a JonBenét Ramsey episode? Yeah. And this happens, like, at the Leach's house. And here's what Terry claims to have found. Terry says that he's uncovered a satanic cult that has been in operation for over 15 years. He also claims that Randy was killed in front of 50 people in a satanic ritual and that two other people were killed trying to stop Randy's murder.
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MISSING: Randy Leach
But he wouldn't say who those other people were, only that information is like about them or whatever it is, is in police records. And then he also alludes to the fact that like, by the way, Terry might not be his real name for like his own protection. And like sometimes he refers to himself as Lee. Who's Lee?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
I think they were so focused on on Randy and like where he was and not even thinking worst case scenario that that.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Bingo. He does not. Now, Unsolved Mysteries did admit that they were interested in covering Randy's case. In fact, they had spoken to the Leeches about it back in April. So this was a real possibility.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
What I don't understand is like the timing of it. It feels really wild. Like, did Terry somehow know that Unsolved Mysteries was looking into this?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Right. Or was he trying to like pull all this stuff together and like pitch it to them? I don't know. But whatever his intentions, it sounds like eventually Unsolved Mysteries covering this case like falls apart. Although at least one source says that they did shoot an episode, but just never aired it. I don't know why they would do that.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
But I think it actually may be the reason is this whole like Terry slash Lee thing. I don't know.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
I don't think it was just Terry. I mentioned before that he had teamed up with a detective on the case. Which is like somehow worse. Well, everyone says she was a little green. Maybe she was a little too eager. And it sounds like these two presented the deputy county attorney old evidence, but like with a new twist. Mm-hmm.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
According to the Lawrence Journal World, Terry also claimed to have new evidence, but like wouldn't show them because he was saving it for the Unsolved Mysteries episode. That's not how that works. Right. You can't do like an IOU for evidence in a probable cause like arrest warrant affidavit.
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MISSING: Randy Leach
And also she's like a young girl and people are like very quick to just like dismiss young women. I don't know. So basically, they find what they think is like nothing there. And so what they do after is they start to fan out. The town of Linwood, where they live and where Randy grew up, is only, I mean, it's small, like 300 people at the time.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Whatever the reason, whatever IOU they gave, like, they got the green light to make the arrest. But then once, I think once they made the arrest, like, the evidence they promised is either double-checked or, like, never materializes. And, like, everyone realizes they have a huge problem on their hand. And the guys are released.
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MISSING: Randy Leach
It could be obstruction, I think, but like somehow. Or like lying to police? Yeah. I don't know. But he walks away from all of this. Of course. Even though he claims that there was a warrant out for his arrest, like, as far as I can see, there wasn't.
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MISSING: Randy Leach
I don't know if he technically didn't break any laws or they just wanted this thing to go away fast or maybe the arrest warrant isn't his real name and nobody knows it. I don't know. And listen, I don't think anyone, like—
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
thought initially he was coming in there to do anything shady i think everyone had good intentions but like it just shows you got to do some due diligence on like the people you work with especially if you're the police department right and you can't blame the local residents for like hoping he's legit and for freaking harold and alberta who just were like dying for anyone and they keep things moving contacted by the real unsolved mysteries right
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MISSING: Randy Leach
I don't think they had any idea that this was the road Terry was going down. But I also think, strangely, that they didn't even totally blame Terry or Lee or whatever his name was because, like I said, they were just so desperate for help. But that help never comes back. And the detective involved did get fired, but her superiors claim it was because she didn't show up for work. So I don't know.
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MISSING: Randy Leach
And then like there's a time after this where like her and Terry, Terry Lee, whatever, disappear. Not like disappear like missing, but just like get out of like the limelight. Like they just got to go underground. And Randy's case kind of continues down the same path. No answers. No Randy. All the way through the 90s and into the 2000s with just like little starts and stops along the way.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Like, in 2001, Alberta and Harold have Randy declared legally dead. In 2003, they watch as the sheriff's office and KBI take another close look, but it doesn't appear that this moves the needle. And it's not until 2014 when they start to hear all about Eric Montgomery. That's when that happens. That's when they begin to wonder what else police might not have told them.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Like, if they're learning about that in 2014 and it happened in 1990, like, all the more reason we're like, okay, like, there are things... that could be potentially done, avenues that haven't been explored. Sure. So in 2016, they sue the sheriff's office to get records in Randy's case released, but that suit fails.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
So you can assume it's not long before everyone knows what's going on. But after a day of searching, there is still no sign of Randy. The next day, on the 17th, Randy's parents formally file a missing persons report.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And the short of it is, like, the judge says that just because the leeches are critical of the investigation doesn't mean that the records should be made public. They say that that could set a precedence for anyone to criticize an investigation in order just to like get a criminal case like records release.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
So at every turn, Alberta and Harold end up back where they first started, without their son, without answers. And despite the reward money in Randy's case being as high as $30,000, no one ever comes forward to talk or name names.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And we've seen that before, right? Where it's like areas, ponds or whatever, were like searched and then found like decades later. Yeah. And you're not alone in thinking that. So according to an article in the Kansas City Star from 2018, actually one of the former investigators on the case is convinced that Randy is in the water somewhere.
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MISSING: Randy Leach
He really thinks that Randy would have taken that back road home that we discussed earlier, like specifically because if you are feeling weird and you're driving at night, like you don't want to. run into police, so you take the back roads, and that would take him on Golden Road.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And back then, there was this single-lane bridge with no guardrails that went over Stranger Creek, which is exactly what it sounds like, a creek. So it's possible that Randy went off the bridge and into the water. And despite people thinking that the creek was too shallow, there is actually an example that a car could sink there.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
So the summer before Randy disappeared, the movie Kansas filmed there, and they pushed a car into that creek, and it sank. But you mentioned before that the creek had been searched. They were, including this one again and again. Randy's car wasn't found.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
But I think this investigator's point is whether Stranger Creek or the Kansas River, other cars have been found in water far from where they actually went in. So like sometimes they're pushed along by the currents. The other thought in the article is that the car could have entered a bowl at the bottom of like a river or something. And over time, that kind of like
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
fills up with sand and sand and like buries the car. Like I was saying, like, it's still so wild to me that you wouldn't find it back then, but that doesn't mean it's not there. And to even further back up the possibility of an accident, in 2017, Toni Anderson, a University of Missouri, Kansas City student, went missing along with her car.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Some sources have this happening on the 16th, but it sounds like they maybe tried to do it on the 16th and then were told that they had to wait the 24 hours or whatever because this was like a mandatory waiting period.
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MISSING: Randy Leach
And everyone was convinced she was kidnapped, but tragically, she was found in her car in the Missouri River.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
So much weirdness like the fact that a man from Topeka, who at one point helped the leeches search for Randy, was reportedly found shot to death along with his wife? Yeah. Listen, there are all these, like, there are all these things I haven't even told you. Like, these tiny... And is it, again, this, like, small town? Is it... We've talked about this.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Like, once you're in the middle of a true crime case, like, there's a microscope on your life that would reveal a bunch of weird things. Like, how much weirdness is in my own life and the people surrounding me, but, like, nobody knows or even I don't know because I don't have investigators.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Right. Cue all the, like, armchair detectives being like, what's Ashley hiding? But anyways, this... This is another weird thing I just want to talk about real quick. So this man from Topeka, police rule his and his wife's death as a murder-suicide. But again, it's just like another weird thing. They help search and this thing happens.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
That doesn't mean like they're immune to tragedy, but another weird thing. And another weird thing, remember the farmhouse where the party was? Remember that caught fire? Mm-hmm. So it's actually not the only fire in this story. According to the Lawrence Journal World, after the leeches bought a car to replace the one that disappeared with Randy, it caught fire and burned in their backyard.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
An inspector reportedly said that a gas line deteriorated and burst, but the leeches thought that it was arson. And I've got more arson for you. Good old Steve also apparently had a brush with a blaze. Harold Leach reportedly said that at some point Steve was living in the back of this store somewhere in Linwood.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Me too. But what's not a surprise is that initially, and we see this all the time as well, police think that Randy might have just up and run away.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And apparently the section where he lived, so like the back of this store, unexpectedly caught fire. Now, I couldn't find more on this. I wish Steve was still alive so we could ask him about this. But again, he's not. Want a little more weirdness because, like, it doesn't stop?
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
The Lawrence Journal World also noted that Randy's dog, Crackers, just, like, up and vanished about four months after Randy went missing. Crackers is never found. And I'm saving the most bizarre for last. So there is this moment in the case where Randy's dad, Harold, is told by a psychic to go to the shores of Stranger Creek, where, again, some thought Randy could be located.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
So Harold goes, and he finds something written in the mud along the shore. It says, Randy Leach was here. Okay. 32991.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
No. And like this, this is so weird because like the psychic lived in Florida. So it's not like... It's not like a plant. Right. Like they set it up. And why would you do that date? He doesn't know what to make of it. I don't know what to make of it. Police don't know what to make of it. So they don't really pursue it. We asked Betty about it. I think she's kind of in the same boat.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Like no one knows what... to make of this thing. The other thing I don't have is, like, the date that his dad was sent to the shore.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
But according to the Lawrence Journal-World, it does look like on the 18th, they finally do put the word out that they're looking for a 6'3", 220-pound 17-year-old. Which, considering how big he is, it should make Randy a little easier to spot in a crowd. Mm-hmm. And in that same article, it mentions they're also looking for more information on his mom's gray Dodge, which is missing with him.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And in this small town, like this is something that's like kind of known about his case. You would think at some point they'd come forward and be like, oh, that was me. Ignore it. Yeah, if you're hearing this for the first time and that was you, like might want to let the leeches know, the police know. But the date still doesn't make sense, even if that was.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Now, as recently as 2021, more searching was done, but the searchers found nothing after checking multiple water locations, even with newer technology. And even more interesting, they were denied access to a pond located on the former property of, wait for it, Everett Bishop. So remember, he went missing himself. He's connected to Eric Montgomery.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Eric Montgomery is a possible suspect in Randy's disappearance. According to Betty, at the time, this property appears to still be owned by the Bishop family, like now. So, or at least when they were trying to do this. So it might not come as a surprise that they weren't willing to let someone search their pond. But they also claim that police had been to the property in the past.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
I don't know if the pond was searched then. So, like, that's one spot that might still not have been checked, but I don't know for sure.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
hiding it if it's like buried or in water, but also could have been like destroyed. You could have like disassembled it. You could have burned it. You could have taken it out of state. I mean, there are a lot of ways to get rid of a car. Now, new theories about this case continue to pop up. Other potential suspects like people who might have lived in the area around that time.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Like there's a name that keeps getting like mentioned in Reddit forums. I'm not going to name names, but there's speculation that Randy's car could have been parked in this person's driveway like at the time of the party or whatever. And I asked Betty about this and she confirmed that there was sort of the shared driveway situation.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And she even speculated like others have that Randy maybe could have ended up like in a neighboring house that something could have happened there. But like, cool, something could have happened anywhere because we don't know where Randy is. Right. Randy's case is still open.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
According to KSHB 41, in later years, two retired detectives began to help Randy's family try to get some answers to his disappearance. But they were met with some roadblocks from authorities who once again refused to share any information or let them look at the case files.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Well, maybe what they don't want out there is them not doing a good job. I mean, that's a possibility, too. I'm not saying it's the possibility, but that's what a lot of people wonder.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
So many years later, I know. Fox 4's Lisa McCormick and Professor Eugene Matthews' review of the case files found that in 1993, the Edwardsville police chief flagged a report that came in describing the supposed location of Randy's car, like this was a whole new thing, Randy's body, and other circumstances about his disappearance.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
The chief wrote, quote, this information warrants further investigation, end quote. But a former Edwardsville police employee who spoke to Fox 4 said the sheriff's office refused to even take the report. In their emails to us, the undersheriff of Leavenworth County said, quote, End quote. We also tried reaching out to KBI, but we haven't heard back from them.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
That's what he was driving that night. So a couple of tips start coming in. Someone who maybe saw Randy at a high school in another town, according to a single source, an anonymous woman who claims to have seen a gray car driving erratically down a street in Lawrence at some point. But neither of those are confirmed. So police and Randy's family are left to try and retrace his last known movements.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And Leavenworth County Attorney's Office, who we reached out to in regard to Randy's file. They referred us back to the sheriff's office for any specific questions. But listen, if anyone out there is connected to any of these investigative agencies and you hear this and you want to talk to us, please reach out. We still have a ton of questions.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And so does Randy's family, who has waited over 36 years for answers. It's hard enough to lose a child, and it's even harder not knowing what happened to them, or if by some miracle they're still out there somewhere. Randy's father, Harold, unfortunately passed away in 2021, never knowing what happened to Randy.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
According to Betty, he kept a list of 97 unanswered questions that he had surrounding his son's disappearance, and it's a list that we plan on poring over. Randy's mother, Alberta, is still alive and we reached out to her too. But as you can imagine, talking about Randy's case is very emotional for her. And it's not something she felt like she could do right now. And I can't even blame her.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
She's been talking about this case for 36 years. That's far too long. She deserves some closure one way or another. And Randy, wherever he is, deserves to finally come home.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
So if you know anything about the disappearance of Randy Leach on April 15th, 1988 in Linwood, Kansas, or maybe if you saw his car, a 1985 Dodge 600 sedan with Kansas plate LVJ8721, please contact the Kansas Bureau of Investigation at 1-800-572-7463. For more information, you can also visit the website InSearchOfRandyLeach.com. We'll link to that in our show notes.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast. Britt and I are actually off next week. We will be back the following week with a brand new episode. But make sure to stick around for the good segment. All right, Brett, now back to our regularly scheduled feel good content.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
I used to sing the CSI theme song with my brother when he was like, itty bitty, baby David.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Now, depending on the reporting, the last time Randy's parents saw him was between 6.30 and 6.45 p.m. That's when he headed out for the night. According to an article by Phil Cawthon for Lawrence.com, around 7 p.m., he stopped at his cousin's house.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
In something like whether it's True Crime or the community or obviously because of like something that they've heard. I literally ran into a girl at a conference just like last week and she's like, listen, I do like ad sales, but I actually think I'm going back to school to like really follow my dream and like make a difference. I'm like, yeah.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Crime Junkie is an Audiochuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? No.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And then at some point, it sounds like maybe this was like 8.30, Randy and a friend of his named Steve, who was older, they drove to the town of DeSoto to look at Randy's graduation present. It was this Mustang that was in the process of being restored. Mm-hmm. Now, it's unclear what happened to Steve after this point, and I'll talk more about him later.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
He goes to a graduation party, starts acting strange, but he doesn't know what's wrong with him. And it's so strange that people don't want him to drive. I mean, that's how bad it is. One minute he's there, and the next, both him and his car are missing, have been missing for 36 years. And in those years, rumors have swirled.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
What we know is that Randy gets gas after this, but there's no note if he was solo, if Steve was still with him, anything like that. But according to Fox 4 in Kansas, I do know that he's by himself when he arrives to that party. So again, where Steve departed, TBD.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
So Fox 4's investigative producer, Lisa McCormick, did a deep dive into Randy's case, and we're going to cite their findings a lot here. And depending on the source, it's sometime between 9.30 and 10 p.m. when he gets to that party. And when he arrives, the bonfire party has already kicked off.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
I feel like I'm on repeat. Depends on the source. But it's not just a couple of kids. They all say it was from like 45 people to like 150 people. So this is a big thing. Yeah, especially for a town that small. Right. And I assume there's like kids coming from Lawrence. Otherwise, half the town could be at the spawn fire. It has to be like pulling from other places.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Now, according to people at the party, there was drinking, there was drug use going on by most of the kids. Though it doesn't sound like Randy was a big drinker and he didn't use drugs, at least according to his parents. And the thing is, is like even in most of the reporting, there's nobody who even saw him with a drink.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Though there is at least one source that suggests that Randy was given a drink, like a single drink. And everyone says, like, he seemed fine early on. Like, sounds like he was talking with friends, everything was normal. And then within a half an hour of him being, like, his normal self, Randy starts acting super strange. He can't walk straight.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
His mom told Fox 4's Lisa McCormick that when she talked to one of Randy's friends after he went missing, the friend said that Randy was, quote, messed up. And when he asked Randy, like, dude, what's wrong with you? Even Randy's like, I don't know, man. Like, even he didn't know what was going on with him. So it's not like he's like, oh, I'm just wasted.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
The Lawrence World Journal reports that the mom of the kid who threw this party says that she never saw Randy with a drink in his hand and that he didn't look drunk. So you have all these different things. But she did say that she noticed that something was definitely off because even she says that he was stumbling.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
No one can pin that down exactly. But it seems like the police were able to get kind of a rough window of when he was last seen from these people that were there. So a friend of Randy's claims that he helped Randy find his car between 1230 and 1 a.m. But when they found the car, Randy couldn't find his keys.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Even though, like, I don't even think Randy was in any kind of condition to drive at that point. I was going to say. Yeah, it sounds like this friend planned to give him a ride home, but the friend, like, had to drive another person home first. And by the time that friend got back, Randy and his car were already gone. Now, there's another sighting of Randy, though.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
The Lawrence Journal-World reports that the mother of the teen whose party this was, she saw Randy waiting for the bathroom, she says, at around 2 a.m. So this could be the last known sighting of Randy if her account is correct.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Now, by 2.30, everyone says the party is basically over except for like a few kids who were lingering who were going to be crashing there that night, none of whom were Randy or his car. So everyone's immediate fear at first, like, knowing all of this, is that, like, maybe Randy found his keys.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Rumors about a party gone wrong, rumors about a satanic cult, and a police department that, as far as the family is concerned... didn't do everything they could have. This is the story of Randy Leach. It's just after 6 a.m. on April 16th, 1988, when Alberta Leach wakes up in her Linwood, Kansas home, ready to get her Saturday started.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Like, there are a bunch of random stories of people, like, playing catch with them or someone else having them, but then they later denied it. Like, it's messy. But maybe somehow he got his keys and... While unable to even walk properly, maybe he got behind the wheel in the wee hours of the morning and maybe he crashed, like somewhere on his way home.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Not him or his car. He just, both are just gone. One minute they're there, the next minute they're gone. But this accident theory, it's just one theory. And honestly, it's not even police's first theory. Randy's parents say police were quick to write their son off as a runaway. And according to Fox 4, quote, missed opportunities to interview witnesses right away.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
They will, but they don't actually search the farm for five weeks. Weeks? Weeks. And when they do, they don't report having done it with anything belonging to Randy on hand. Like, Lisa McCormick spent months reviewing the files connected to Randy's case with Eugene Matthews, who was this associate professor of criminal justice at Park University.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And Matthews says that search dogs potentially could have had a shot, even five weeks later, at finding Randy's last location on the farm.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Yeah, anything with his scent. But the Leavenworth County Sheriff's Office didn't do that. And we actually reached out to the sheriff's office about this. And while they wouldn't respond to like specific questions from us, they did give us a statement. And part of that statement reads, quote, "...our staff and the LVSO in its entirety remain committed to the solving of this case.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
At no point have we wavered in the pursuit of this goal. Over the 36 years of this case's existence, we have assigned dedicated, qualified investigators to the case. We have endeavored to bring this case to a close." Now, at no point then or now have they said if anything comes of that search, if anything was found on the farm.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
But I mean, I think anything worth finding had five weeks to disappear.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
So saying there's nothing, even if there is nothing, like that doesn't really hold a whole lot of weight for people, least of all Randy's family.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
But the thing is, the more I think about it, even if they would have searched it sooner, I don't know if they would have found anything because if you remember how cleaned up it was.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
I mean, people point to that all the time. When Randy's uncle had gone looking for him, he said you literally could not tell a party had happened there. A quote in the Lawrence Journal World has him saying, I was at the site of the party around seven in the morning and they wouldn't do a thing to help me. The ground was swept and raked and everything put away, no cups or cans.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Unless, like, we didn't want our parents to know that the party happened, which we know this, like, mom there knows it's going on. It's like they are seeing people. We're cleaning up the next day. Oh, for sure. And the fact that this got cleaned up so quickly, I think this is what starts to really fuel rumors in town.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Well, buckle up. So we're about to head into satanic panic territory. As you know, we are in the late 80s. It is prime time for satanic panic. And we are in Bible Belt, Kansas.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
So the air is like primed when, according to Kansas City Star, a tip comes in that says one of Randy's classmates had told another classmate that he was part of a satanic cult and that he murdered Randy as some kind of ritual sacrifice. So, I mean, this sounds wild, but police bring this guy in for questioning. And according to the Kansas City Star, they also search a car in relation to this.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
And inside they find some knives. They find some, like, wait for it, dungeon and dragons, a manual, which I think just fuels the theory.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
But ultimately, this classmate of Randy's never gets charged. And actually, this classmate, his name's Rob, he was interviewed on an episode of the Crime Wire podcast in 2017. And he admits that he was at the party. He says, though, that he was targeted with all of this because he was just, like, the black sheep in the community. He's like, I wasn't, like, I wasn't satanic.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
I was just, like, into heavy metal music. And I had nothing to do with Randy's disappearance. This entire story that the police were tipped off to was just a lie. And even, like, the D&D thing in the Kansas City Star, like, Apparently, he told them, like, he didn't even play it. Which, like, that's such a frustrating, like. I love that they're, like, honing in on that. Your husband plays D&D.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Well, and I remember growing up, right? Like, I wasn't allowed to touch a Dungeons & Dragons thing. There was the word dragons in it. Well, what this reminds me of, it reminds me a lot of the West Memphis Three if, like, the West Memphis Three hadn't have ended in a conviction. You know what I mean? Like, this was the start of it. It's like, oh, you dress in black. Oh, you like heavy metal music.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Right. So according to the Topeka Capital Journal, despite Rob never being charged, police did continue to monitor and follow him around. I guess it literally took Rob 26 years just to get his knives and books back from the police after they were taken. But just because Rob was off the hook, it doesn't mean that the community thinks that the police were barking up the wrong tree.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
Because something wild happens in the middle of all of this. Something that like makes them think this satanic thing is like got some legs to it. So there's this young man who walks into the police station in a nearby town, this town of Edwardsville. This is like 20 minutes from where Randy grew up. And this guy tells police a story that sends shockwaves through Linwood.
Crime Junkie
MISSING: Randy Leach
This man says that he was abducted by a group of people and held for three weeks. Some reports say two weeks, but weeks nonetheless. He tells police that they drugged him and at one point they brought him to this cave where he witnessed several people in robes performing some kind of ritual. According to one source, they threatened to cut off his arm at one point.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And the story I have for you today is about a gruesome discovery in a New York City basement, one that set off an investigation weaving together threads that you would never expect to find in a single case. A shadowy suspect. A tangled family tree filled with deception. An iconic rock club.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
So like late 80s or even the early 90s. And that's making sense to investigators. I mean, at the time, like 80s, 90s, New York was in the grip of a drug epidemic that was driving violence to levels that they'd never seen before. We're talking like 1900 plus homicides a year, except like it's feeling great, except that timeline might not be accurate.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
It takes a while, but they eventually end up learning that the estimate was wrong. The clothing label, the dates that they were given, were completely off. Manufacturing records show that it could have been made as early as the 60s.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Yes, but for some reason, even though they're putting the label at the 60s, police still seem pretty set on the idea that this victim was killed in the 80s. I don't know why, but that's their thinking at the time. So what they do is they have an artist create a reconstruction of her face using detailed measurements from her skull.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
They get her featured on America's Most Wanted, which was like prime back then. But no one recognizes her. Now, they managed to determine that the human hairs in the carpet belonged to a blonde male, probably a white guy. But they can't say who that guy is. Was there like a lot of hair? Detective Glass described it as like a pinch, like about what you would clean out of a hairbrush.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
But they don't know. I mean, if it's the killers or if it was just like mixed up with everything else, like it's not going to be like the nail in the coffin for someone, right? Like that's not going to be the clencher. So fast forward a little bit. Over the years, the Emmy's office checks Midtown Jane Doe against various missing people. And at least one possibility does gain some traction.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
It's this big rectangular concrete slab, like six feet wide, five feet long, taller than your standard cinder block. And it looks just all kinds of wrong. Like it definitely doesn't belong here. And in a place like New York where lifers have seen it all, that is saying something. So a worker takes a sledgehammer to this thing.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
In August 2011, a woman named Maureen is online when she comes across the sketch of Midtown Jane Doe. And as she later tells Long Island Press reporter Jacqueline Gallucci, it stops her in her tracks. because she thinks it looks just like her missing sister, Judy O'Donnell, who vanished in 1980 while pursuing her dreams of becoming an actress and a singer in New York City.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
And it's not just her looks that strike Maureen as similar. She knew that Judy had been living on the streets in Hell's Kitchen. She knew that she'd been arrested for sex work, which, remember, is the going theory about Midtown Jane Doe. Plus, they both had expensive dental work that just seemed to stop like their lives took a sharp turn.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Not hers, but those are Judy's grandmother's exact initials. And Maureen knows that Judy and their grandma were super close. And like... There's nobody in her family that remembers a ring like that, but Maureen thinks that it would be, like, probable that Judy might have, like, found it somewhere and kept it to honor their grandmother. Like, who knows?
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
So that October, a forensic specialist compared Judy's dental records to Jane Doe's. But they can't say if it's a match, one way or another. And after being encased in concrete for God knows how long by this point, her bones are so degraded that getting a viable DNA profile is like trying to get blood from a stone. So all told, they submit 33 different samples for analysis.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
But it's not until 2015 that they're able to get any sort of profile from Midtown Jane Doe. And it's not until the following year that they can confirm that Jane Doe is not Judy O'Donnell.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Yes, and they are even able to put it into CODIS. But the sample is so small that scientists can basically only use it for direct comparison. But either way, you're right, it's progress. And in 2017, there is this renewed push to finally figure out who she is once and for all after a detective rediscovered the case while reviewing old, unsolved files.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
And he decided it was time to take a closer look. What they do now is they try to do isotope analysis, which basically looks at the chemical makeup of hair, teeth, bones, all of that to figure out where a person might have lived. And based on what they do, the results point pretty strongly to one region, the Midwest. The Minnesota Strip. Yes, it's got a name for a reason, right?
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
But the Midwest doesn't like narrow it down, right? It's not specifically Minnesota, right?
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
They were checking everywhere, all over across the country. So obviously the isotope test didn't really move things along. So when Detective Glass is assigned the case in 2022, he comes with totally fresh eyes. No preconceived notions about who she was or where she's from or how she got there. And what do you know? it gives him a different take.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
His gut is telling him that Midtown Jane Doe wasn't a sex worker and that he thinks she was killed way before 1980. And this theory might have just stayed a theory, but then something huge happens. A lab called Astraea Forensics, which specializes in analyzing low-quality samples, they managed to get a genealogy-grade DNA profile from one of her foot bones.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
So the NYPD's new genealogist, this woman named Linda Doyle, she is brought on board. And when they upload the sample, they quickly get two crucial hits. They get a first cousin on her dad's side and a first cousin once removed on her mom's side.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
And instead of the solid thud that you would expect to hear when you like hit concrete, there is this echoing sound that tells them it's hollow inside. And with the blow, the cement starts breaking apart until they see brown fabric poking through. And when they pull on it, a human skull starts popping out.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
And thank God, though, right? Like, they are long overdue for a break. And this is a big one because the paternal cousin's surname is McGlone.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Yep. So Linda starts doing what genealogists do best. She's like digging into public records, old newspapers, obituaries, court documents, anything she can dig up and get her hands on that might show her where these two branches of Jane Doe's family tree intersects. And after all of this research... Linda can only find one person who fits the bill. 16-year-old Patricia McClone.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
She wasn't born after 1958. She wasn't a sex worker, as far as we know. And she wasn't from the Midwest. She actually lived right there in Brooklyn until she disappeared. Except Patricia was never reported missing. And here's just a random twist.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
So Patricia's paternal cousin, who died a couple of years before genealogy tracked the family down, he was actually a retired NYPD cop and had worked just one precinct away from where they found her body. Now, I doubt that they even knew each other. It doesn't seem like they were very, like the whole family was like a super close-knit family, but it was just... I thought it was so weird.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
I don't know. So while detectives have this tentative answer to the question that's haunted them for so long, they're now facing even bigger ones like who was Patricia? What happened in her final days? And how does a teenage girl just vanish without anyone looking for her?
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
So as Detective Glass and Linda dive into the investigation, they begin to uncover a story that has been buried literally for decades. And to even try to understand it, we have to go back to the beginning. Patricia's dad, Bernard McGlone Sr., was a busy man, to say the least.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
By the time he hooked up with Patricia's mom, who was also named Patricia, but let's just call her Pat, he had already been married twice. He and his first wife had two sons before they split. Then he remarried to this woman named Helen. They had a son. But while he was still married to Helen, Bernard and Pat got married in Virginia.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Now, he knocked about five years off his age on their application, saying that he was 45 when he was nearly 50. And for some reason, Pat added a year, saying she was 21, but she was really only 24. Now, Patricia is born on April 20th, 1953. So this is about 10 months after her parents' so-called wedding, if you can call it that, since he's already married.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
And at the time, Bernard is still living with Helen, the other woman he's married to.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
And a partridge in a pear tree. Like, you're going to need a flow chart to keep everyone straight. Which is a great reminder for everyone listening to make sure you know that we have YouTube now. Like this episode will be up in a couple of weeks if you want the visual Crime Junkie experience. But trust me, I'm giving you the simplified version.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Though if you really want the messy details, there is a great article in Rolling Stone by the reporter Sarah Weinman that breaks all this down. But anyways. Even though Bernard's two families live in the same Sunset Park neighborhood in Brooklyn, he somehow managed to keep his double life a secret for years.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Now, the worker notifies the NYPD, and Detective Gerard Gardner, who just started his shift and is next up in rotation to catch a case, heads straight to the scene. Now, he knows right away that this is not going to be a routine investigation. New York City has more than its fair share of homicides, don't get me wrong, but cases involving skeletal remains are rare here.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Okay, so Nina interviewed Linda Doyle, and based on what we learned from her, along with Sarah Weinman's article, I'm pretty confident that Helen was completely in the dark. But with Pat, I'm not exactly sure. I mean, Bernard obviously wasn't, like, living with her and Patricia, right? So I assume that would have been a red flag.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
But he was a long-haul truck driver, so being gone for these long stretches, like, wouldn't have been that weird either. But at any rate, in 1957, he apparently left Helen for Pat, although when Helen died of breast cancer a few years later, her obituary still refers to her as Bernard's beloved wife. So, like, Make of that what you will. And then Bernard and Helen's son, Bernard Jr.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Junior was in his teens when his mom died. So he moved in with his dad, Pat, and Patricia. But if there was any stability in their home, it didn't last long. In 1963, when Patricia was 10, Senior died of a heart attack. Pat became Junior's legal guardian, and he lived with her and Patricia for a while.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
But in a brief account that he wrote about his life titled Sad But True, he said that he was totally alone after his father died. Meanwhile, as Patricia bounced between public and Catholic schools, her attendance got more and more spotty. She had to repeat a grade. Detective Glass and Linda can't even locate a yearbook photo of her. Like, she's not in any of them.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
But they did find little fragments of Patricia's life on other school records. And a really troubling picture starts to emerge. Like at her first and only semester at a junior high she transferred to in late 1968, she only showed up for nine days of class. And obviously her teachers were concerned.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
One of them noted that Patricia seemed well-behaved, but she questioned how she ever was going to learn anything if she was never there. And Pat was also reportedly worried, and she told school officials that she just didn't know who her daughter was skipping school with. But I don't know how much attention she was really paying to Patricia.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
By then, she had started dating another married man, and I think he was living with them. Now, Patricia was totally closed off from her teachers, though she did mention being interested in something she calls beauty culture, which I'm thinking is probably like cosmetology. But they didn't think that she seemed motivated to continue her education.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
But I don't know if motivation is the real issue here because, I mean, what really stands out to investigators are the last few memos in Patricia's student file, all dated 1969. including a report from March detailing a series of medical-related absences, and then another from May 8th when she dropped out of school for good.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
And officially, her final departure was a quote-unquote medical discharge. But this isn't Linda's first genealogy rodeo, and she knows exactly what that phrase was code for back then. Patricia was pregnant, wasn't she? Bingo.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
And this was all happening during what was known as the baby scoop era after World War II, when more and more girls and women were facing unplanned pregnancies out of wedlock. Single motherhood carried a very heavy stigma, not to mention the financial burdens of raising a child alone. And that combination of judgment and desperation was the perfect storm for exploitation.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
So he calls in the city medical examiner's forensic anthropologist, and when they dig through that concrete to the dirt below... They find a skeleton like curled up in the fetal position, all wrapped up in a rust colored carpet.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Many expectant mothers were coerced or forced to give up their babies, and some doctors saw it as a business opportunity. For a fee, they would discreetly connect wealthy couples looking to adopt with vulnerable young women who felt like they had no other choice.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
So investigators think that the physician listed in Patricia's school records might have been involved in one of these shady operations, in part because of a bizarre incident documented in a daily news article. So apparently a gunman burst into this specific doctor's office on the Upper West Side one day at 9 p.m., while the place was still like buzzing with patients and staff.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
And he robbed a patient of like $500 cash. And night patients and cash is a major red flag. It's definitely raising eyebrows for Linda. Now, word was that this doctor also performed abortions, which to me could explain the late hours and the cash. But Linda doubts that anyone in Patricia's Catholic community would have sent her to a doctor for something like that.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
So it's also possible that Patricia had no plans to give up the baby that she might have had for adoption because her school paperwork had another bombshell waiting for investigators. It turns out that Patricia got married a day before she dropped out of school on May 7th, 1969. to a man named Donald Grant. I mean, did her mom have to sign off on that? Oh yeah, Pat gave permission.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Exactly. And who the f*** is he? Yeah. I mean, they assume that he might be the father of her baby, but investigators can't say for sure because they can't find a single person who actually knew Patricia. No friends, no neighbors. The few relatives that they're aware of have all passed away. So they don't have any details on how or when she met this Donald guy.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
All they can follow is this paper trail. So from the school records, they go and pull the marriage license. And it is basically just one giant red flag. For starters, Donald was 32 when he exchanged vows with 16-year-old Patricia.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
And more like a tomb. I mean, there's no bottom to it per se. Like whoever did this might have put the body down or maybe even dug into the floor a little bit. And then what they did was they poured cement right over the top, almost as if they were building some kind of foundation. Now, at first glance, investigators don't see any obvious signs of trauma on this skeleton.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
But the age gap isn't even the biggest holy sh** thing about this marriage license. Because guess what Donald put for his address? The building where Patricia was found. 301 West 46th Street. You got it. What's so extra interesting is that Donald's name is only listed at that address for one year in the 1969 city directory. And Patricia isn't officially linked to that building at all.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
But it looks like their marriage license, like that's where it got mailed to. So investigators think that she probably lived there at some point. And all of this fits perfectly with the new timeline police are forming. They now believe that Patricia was killed during the summer of 1969.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Yeah, it was later. Detective Glass has a theory. He thinks that the newer items like the wrapper, stuff like that, that probably got shuffled into the original burial site somehow, maybe during all the construction work that was going on. I mean, that makes way more sense than Patricia being alive like into the 70s or even the 80s.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
especially when you look at all of the other evidence, like the dime and the watch and all of that found with her remains. So armed with their new estimated timeline, police decide to shift their focus to a place that they initially overlooked, a place called Steve Paul's The Scene. It was this like legendary rock club that operated in that very basement from the mid to late 60s.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
And when I say legendary, we're talking performances by Jimi Hendrix, The Doors, Fleetwood Mac. Like this was the hotspot. Even Andy Warhol hung out there. And the layout of this place was unusual. It was this massive maze of brick-walled cellars and passageways. But like everything else in that building, the scene wasn't destined to last.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
By the late 60s, Brooklyn mobsters were demanding protection money from the owner. And get this, one of those mobsters was Tony Sirico, who is best known as Pauly Walnuts from The Sopranos.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
The actual guy used to be a mobster, probably. But, like, he's not a suspect. The cement Patricia was found in, like, for a minute, it sparked all these mafia rumors over the years. But police don't think there's anything to that. Sirico is just, like, one of the many bizarre footnotes in this story.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
The September 11 attacks mob shakedowns tied to a gangster who would later find fame on The Sopranos. Like you name it, it is in this case. And at the heart of it all is a teenage girl and the decades-long mission to restore her identity. But even though she finally has her name back, justice still remains out of reach. And police need your help to find out what really happened to her.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
But before he became an actor, he was a legit criminal known for shaking down nightclub owners, including Steve Paul. But Steve didn't want to deal with all the drama, so he shut the club down in maybe July or August of 1969. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Yes, but theoretically, I mean, they could have died from something nonviolent like an overdose and then whoever was there like panicked and covered it up, whatever. But that's not even a consideration here because the victim was hogtied with pantyhose and an electrical cord, which is also wrapped around this person's neck.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
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Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
But even though they have a huge potential clue about the cause of death, like with these things, they've still got their work cut out for them. The concrete might have helped to preserve the skeleton, but what they're dealing with is just that, bones. There is no flesh, there is no muscle, nothing. And even the bones aren't in great shape.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Like the outer surface starts like peeling away on them, kind of like old paint chipping off of a wall. So an ID is going to be difficult. However, they do find some pretty promising clues. They discover that this person had long fingernails and the victim is wearing a tan bra.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
There's also a glittery fabric with red and yellow sequin that they think might come from some kind of clothing, which all hints to them that this might be a female. Now, the anthropologist can also get a pretty good sense of this person's age. The victim's wisdom teeth haven't totally come in yet, which usually happens between like 17 years old and 25 years old.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Crime Junkie is an Audiochuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? No.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
And their collarbone isn't fully fused, meaning that this person's bones were still growing when they died. And while they don't find a purse or ID, the victim is wearing two pieces of jewelry that could be huge for identification. So there is a 1966 Bulova watch on their wrist.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
and a yellow metal signet ring on their right pinky finger with the initials PM, lowercase c, G. Now, everything gets hauled into the lab, and a couple of days later, Detective Gardner gets an update on the findings that starts painting a clearer picture. They can now confirm that this definitely is a female victim, a young woman between 15 and 21 years old, somewhere between 4'10 and 5'4".
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
She had a narrow face, petite build, and reddish-brown hair, some of which was still attached to the skull. According to America's Most Wanted, her pointy chin and the shape of her skull and the eye sockets led them to believe that she was likely white. Now, looking at her pelvic bone, the anthropologist thinks it's unlikely that she ever had children, although they can't be sure.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
But it is her teeth that really tell an interesting story because she had expensive dental work done on her back teeth. But her front teeth were starting to rot before she died.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Now, investigators theorize that she might have been one of the kids who maybe ran away to New York City chasing big dreams or something. But whatever she was looking for, I mean, obviously she found something very different. And that idea isn't totally out of left field.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
So the detective who's working the case now, Ryan Glass, he told our reporter, Nina, that this part of Hell's Kitchen specifically, like including this very building, which is 301 West 46th Street, was known for drugs and sex work. It's right by the Port Authority bus terminal, which is often the first stop for young people coming into the city.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
But that also makes it a magnet for predators looking for vulnerable teens. Cops even nicknamed the area the Minnesota Strip because so many of the girls being trafficked there were runaways from the Midwest. And the basement that she was buried in has its own interesting history. So it was home to a speakeasy in Prohibition, then a rock club in the 60s.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
This is the story of a woman who for more than two decades was known only as the Midtown Jane Doe. It's Monday afternoon, February 10th, 2003, and construction workers are clearing debris from a basement of a rundown five-story building on West 46th Street in Midtown Manhattan, a neighborhood known as Hell's Kitchen.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Oh yeah, it's definitely not like that old. Okay. But they can tell that she has been there for a while. So her skeleton is mostly intact, but some bones were missing, like smaller ones from her like hands, feet, stuff that could have maybe been carried off by rats.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
And speaking of rats, when lab techs process the scene, they find this, like, whole little ecosystem that developed around her remains. Maggot casings, rodent bones, a nest. And there were also animal and human hairs in the carpet that she was wrapped in. And then there's like this random collection of items that they find mixed in with everything.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Pieces of Sears brand feed and weed bag, scraps of rat poison wrapper, like a plastic green toy soldier, some duct tape, and a dime from 1969. The dime is so crusty and corroded that they can barely make out the date, but they do.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Right. So, OK, that's hard to say. Some of it was definitely in the mix with her remains, like the Sears bag and the toy soldier and that dime were actually in the rug with her. which makes me think that maybe they were just kind of lying on whatever carpet that she ended up being rolled up in. Or, I mean, it's also possible that she had those things on her. Like, who knows?
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
But the other stuff, like the rat poison wrapper, probably that stuff came, like, it was more in the concrete. I mean, it's really, like, kind of a showdown there. But all of this stuff still helps create kind of a rudimentary timeline. Like, those little green army men, they became huge in the 50s when everyone got freaked out about lead poisoning from the metal ones.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
But then the dime tells us that she couldn't have been killed before 1969. Then the rat poison wrapper, that brand didn't even exist until the late 70s. So taking everything into consideration, they think she was killed sometime in the 70s, maybe the 80s, but they're leaning more toward the 80s given the history of crime in that stretch of the city.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Now, even after the medical examiner, whose name is actually Dr. Happy, even after Dr. Happy checks everything out, he can't find any injuries that definitively show how this person died. But given the electrical cord around her neck, Dr. Happy is thinking that it was probably strangulation. And while they don't know for sure if she was sexually assaulted, nothing seems to point to that actually.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Her bra was still properly in place, not like pulled down or messed with. And they also find scraps of dark fabric near her hips and legs that might be from pants or shorts, along with some buttons. So right now, they have no name, no suspects, and no motive. And they're like two decades behind. All they can do for now is try to build a profile of what kind of person could have done this.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Police believe the killer had to be someone who knew that building inside and out, probably a regular in the neighborhood. They would have needed to know their way around concrete as well and that particular basement. And there's actually a few ways to access this basement from inside the building, plus a steel trap door that opens to a neighborhood parking lot.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
But they don't think that this was just some random person who wandered in. I mean, think about how much time it would take to construct something like this tomb, as we're calling it. This is a place that her killer felt comfortable in.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Yet Detective Glass estimates that they would have needed at least 50 bags of concrete.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
So it's a little hard to tell at first, but it might have just been a regular basement back then. Like TBD, we'll kind of get there. But this building in general, like investigators at the time quickly realized that it was never a kind of place where people would stay long. Like by the time they're canvassing in 2003, the place is practically empty. There aren't any long-term residents.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Even the superintendent is fairly new. And the first floor is just an adult video store, and some of the upper floors are completely blocked off. And they do end up finding one guy who worked in the area back in the 80s, but he can't tell them anything useful about the space.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
So with no witnesses to work with, Detective Gardner shifts focus to the physical evidence, starting with that boulevard watch. He's hoping that the serial number might lead them to whoever bought it. But according to New York Post reporter Al Gouart, that is a total dead end.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
It turns out that Boulevard just randomly assigns serial numbers for insurance, like they don't actually track the purchases at all. So they move on to what they think is actually their best chance at identifying her, that ring. So Gardner teams up with the FBI and starts searching nationwide for missing persons with PMCG in their initials.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Now, based on their timeline and what they know so far, they look for people born on or after 1958, and they get 11 names back. But after comparing things like race and age and other characteristics, they have to eliminate every single one. So next, they dig into arrest records, checking out every woman with those initials who's been charged with a crime across the country.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
And they're doing this thinking that maybe she could have been involved in sex work or maybe drugs. And if that's the case, maybe she had a run-in with law enforcement. So that search gives Gardner another 500 names to chase down. But still, even with those 500 names, he gets nothing.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
To your point, there are serial killers. Even that MO is a little off. But there actually was one of the first potential suspects, at least that we know of, that they look into was someone who targeted sex workers and someone who took elaborate steps to hide their bodies or at least make sure that these bodies couldn't be tracked back to him.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Now, this guy is among New York's most notorious serial killers, Joel Rifkin. Rifkin terrorized women all over the city in Long Island from the late 80s into the early 90s. The only reason he stopped was because he got caught driving with a missing license plate, of all things, like that he could have gotten caught for. And when he did get caught, police found a decomposing body in his pickup.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Now, he ended up confessing to killing 17 women, though he was only ever convicted technically of nine murders. Now, what we know about him is he strangled his victims, all of whom were sex workers or women struggling with addiction, and he was super calculated about disposing of their bodies.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
And the thing about him is he used different methods each time, which made it really hard for investigators to connect these crimes. And get this, according to biography.com, with his second victim... he actually put her dismembered head, arms, and legs into buckets and then filled those buckets with concrete and dumped them into the East River and a Brooklyn canal.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Now, only catch is that Rifkin was known for leaving bodies outside, in water, in woods, near highways. Sometimes he put them in oil drums, but as far as we know, he never stashed anyone away indoors. And I'm not exactly sure how or if they ruled him out back then. I know Detective Glass interviewed him years later after he inherited the case.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
But in 2003, even though they're interested in him, they don't seem to really focus on him. Gardner tells Al Gwart that there's time. Rifkin isn't going anywhere. Like, he's serving over 200 years in prison.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Well, at the time, I think they were wanting to know more about their victim, who the press is calling Midtown Jane Doe. I think they want to figure that part out before going to him. And we've talked about this before, right? Like, you try and get, like, all your ducks in a row so you know when someone's lying, you have all the facts.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Now, this place is in pretty bad shape, and the only reason the workers are even down there is because the restaurant next door arranged to rent part of the basement just for storage. So they're doing their thing when one of them notices something weird in the corner behind this old boiler.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
Like, they might get only one shot at those interviews, and without solid information about who she is, they would be at a huge disadvantage. I mean, truthfully, they still don't even know when she was killed. But, according to America's Most Wanted, they do catch a break with that when they send crime scene soil samples to the lab. Mixed in with some dirt, they find a torn up clothing label.
Crime Junkie
IDENTIFIED: Midtown Jane Doe
And after techs like clean it up and look at it under a microscope, they can see seals showing that it was made by the International Ladies Garment Workers Union. So Detective Gardner reaches out to them, hoping that they can date this label. And when he gives them the numbers and the letters and all the things on the seal, they tell him that it could not have been made before December of 1987.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flower. And I'm Britt. And this is part two of our look into Reese Pocan's story. So if you haven't heard the first part, please go back and listen because we're picking up right where we left off. When our reporter, Emily, realizes that this case goes way beyond Reese,
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
It's crazy. Maybe because of a lack of cooperation, maybe for a zillion other reasons, the investigation stalls. Though no excuse is an acceptable one to Elise and her family. They don't feel like investigators did enough at the time. And she's heard that there was lost evidence in the case, and she thinks that multiple agencies didn't coordinate well. It seemed to her to just be a mess.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
But they didn't just mess up a job the way that you or I might screw up like a spreadsheet. This is her mom's literal life. And you only get one shot at the early days of an investigation. And now that's lost. Investigators hope back then was that if they could find Ray's head, maybe that would give them some physical evidence to work with. But they searched for five months without locating it.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
I don't know because not all of Ray's remains were found. Police told us that it was only her lower half that was found. And that, and again, we know her head was never found.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
But could there be some other reason? Yeah, we kept asking detectives that very question during our reporting and nobody could say for sure. I mean, they pointed out that obviously if a killer was like a seasoned criminal, like you're saying, they might do that for identification purposes.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
It's also possible that this is, like, depending on, you know, who the killer was, what the relationship, the motive was. Like, just plain revenge could be another factor. We also had some sources tell us that in certain cultures, it is a belief that someone can't rest in peace without being buried fully intact. So there could be several different factors at play. But to go back to Ray's case...
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
I mean, we have the most badass group of women here at Audio Check doing the absolute Lord's work. But like try calling up the FBI and saying that you have a podcast and there might be a serial killer. Right. Honestly, it's going to be a little easier because Crime Junkie actually is pretty well known now. We have a lot of law enforcement fans. Like, thanks, guys.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
We spoke with Chief Tortola, and he said he still has suspects in Ray's case, and no one has been excluded as a person of interest. Unfortunately, though, lots of people that he wanted to talk to have since passed away. And he hoped maybe for a deathbed confession in this case, but that's never happened. He says he did do some DNA testing, though. On what? I don't know on what.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
He wouldn't tell us. But I think the what is the wrong question, because that's what I was getting to. There is a question that is far more interesting to ask. So the who they did testing with is one that I was like fascinated with. Because at one point, Chief Tortellat said that he had his DNA tested to prove that he wasn't involved.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Not clear. Like we tried to ask the FBI, but they never got back to us.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Correct. But he's also been working this case since the beginning. Like, he's the guy that's been heading it up from the tribal side for almost 30 years.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
So I feel like the FBI would have stepped in if he was a real person of interest. I don't know. And for all I know, there isn't even DNA evidence to compare stuff to like that's something that they wouldn't share. It's all so muddy and complicated. And we were this close to getting an interview like with one of the detectives working on this case.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Emily actually reached out to the detective who is directly assigned. He agreed to talk. But then Chief Tortelot wouldn't authorize the interview. And since our coverage has been ongoing for like years now, we even went back and asked again. And the detective said that he isn't allowed to do media interviews.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
I don't know if that's because of the shared jurisdiction with the FBI or why everyone is so hush-hush on Ray's case, why Chief Tortolat doesn't want him talking. But it seems like they don't want people asking questions or like getting the word out, which in my opinion just hurts their chances of actually receiving tips in her case. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
So at a certain point in her adulthood, Elise gets to the point where she feels like she needs to take matters into her own hands, conduct her own interviews with Ray's closest friends. And honestly, her primary goal isn't even to get her mom's murder solved. She wants to just learn more about her mom and keep her name alive through conversation.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
But other podcasts have made fools of themselves by calling the FBI and they end up becoming the butt of like internet jokes. So Emily tried reaching out to various FBI field offices in Wisconsin, but like only ever got connected with a PIO who then never even returned a call or an email.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
So yeah, Josephine. And Ray had a sister too. And that's who Elise lived with. And she had her dad. But Elise, she said she never felt like she could ask questions because anytime Ray would come up, like it would just make everyone so upset. So she really grew up with her mom being this like taboo subject in her family.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And of course, we know the extended family is also reckoning with the death of another relative.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
I know. We don't know exactly how close they were as cousins, but they definitely crossed paths on the Menominee Reservation where they grew up. Reese's daughter, Michelle, remembers seeing Ray perform at powwows or, like, traditional Native American culture celebrations. She performed as a dancer. And I know that Reese knew about Ray's murder,
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
because of a tip that Hatch found buried in Reese's case file. A tip in Reese's case file about Ray, and it is chilling. The tip is from a woman named Geraldine, or Jerry, one of Reese's friends from church. And when interviewed by police in 1990, Geraldine reveals that just two months before Reese went missing, Reese confided something in her. And here is Detective Nathan Hatch.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
He who? This is gonna eat you alive. She told Jerry a name, but Jerry couldn't remember the name.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
I know. It seems almost impossible that investigators never connected the two murders, but they just never compared notes. In fact, we actually connected the investigators in both cases just this past year, in October 2024, and that's when they finally sat down and had their first ever meeting. Wait, I don't understand.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
But undeterred, she, you know, compiles everything that she's found into a document that she sends off to Detective Hatch, who trusts her. And in turn, he sends it to the FBI field office in Milwaukee. And here is what was in that document. Our list begins in 1982 when the partial remains of a Jane Doe are found in Caledonia, which is in southeast Wisconsin.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
I know. So they're talking 2024, but like no huge breakthroughs happened at this fall meeting. It did finally bring together tribal police, the county detectives, the feds, the state investigative agencies. They basically went down the POI list in both Ray and Reese's case to see if there were any overlaps. Unfortunately, no one knows who.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Again, it all comes back to what is the name that Reese told Jerry? Who was she afraid of? But nobody knows. I do know that what comes out of this big meeting, everyone coming together, is that investigators, detectives all left that meeting with a new to-do list full of leads that they wanted to follow up on that are still underway as of this recording of this episode.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And the whole jurisdiction thing seems to be a major hurdle, though not just in Ray and Reese's cases, but in most of the Wisconsin dismemberment cases that Emily and I found. And I asked Detective Hatch about these two.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
So that brings us to our next case, Julia Baez, known to most people as Julie. She was last seen in June of 1990, about nine months after Reese's disappearance. Unfortunately, we don't know the exact date that Julie was last seen alive because she isn't reported missing until nearly five months after the fact.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Well, because of different relationships and reportedly Julie's prior drug use, her two sons weren't living with her. One of them was with his dad, another was in foster care. And then her 14-year-old daughter Marisol was with her father in New Jersey. And then Julie's 10-year-old daughter, also named Julie, was in foster care in Milwaukee.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Plus, according to Julie's half-sister Luz, the one who eventually does report her missing... Julie lived this very transient lifestyle. So Luz tells police that Julie made a habit of going off on her own and she would like return weeks later. I don't know where she would go and actually Julie's daughters don't remember even their mom doing that.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
But apparently Luz began to get concerned because nobody in the family had heard from Julie in a while. She wasn't with their mom in Puerto Rico, and her apartment manager hadn't seen her around at all there. In fact, according to police reports that we got through a records request, it had been so long since the apartment manager had seen Julie that he actually moved her stuff into storage.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
According to the Doe Project, they're still trying to identify her. But the woman was likely between 45 and 60 years old and had given birth at some point in her life. Then, in March of 1983, in Racine, which, by the way, is just 11 miles from Caledonia, a woman's arms, hands, and legs are found buried in a backyard. She's identified as 51-year-old Helen Sebastian.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
In Julie's missing persons report, Luz tells police that she last saw Julie June 18th, 1994. at a tavern about five minutes from Julie's apartment, and that Julie left the bar after having an argument with her boyfriend, Pedro. So police looked at Pedro. It seems like they're at least initially suspicious of him, but on paper, it never led to anything official.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
So of course, we did some of our own digging. The day that Julie went missing, her daughter Marisol was with her grandma, Julie's mom, and Marisol remembers the last conversation she had with Julie.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
So based on interviews that we did and then the records that we got, I actually think both stories are true. So we learned that Julie actually went out with her BFF, Maricela, at a tavern where they were regulars and a tavern where Pedro was known to play in a band. That's where Julie and her girlfriend supposedly went dancing that night. And the bar is no longer there.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
But for our Milwaukee crime junkies, it was at 15th and Mitchell. And it was possibly called the El Winoco Lounge. And reports state that Luz, again, this is Julie's sister. It's actually half sister. It says that she was at the bar that night. So she tells police that Julie and Pedro got into an argument and that Julie left never to be seen again. Was Pedro interviewed? I wish I knew.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Like, again, the police reports we got through the open records request are like super thin. I know police at least got a statement from Maricela, the friend that she was with that night. Obviously, they got a statement from Luz. But they didn't give us any copies of like the friend's statements or any of the follow-up reports about Pedro, if there were any. And so that was basically it.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Like, there were some routine follow-ups on Julie every few years to see if she had, like, renewed her driver's license or if any of her kids had heard from her. But at some point, with no more viable leads, the case just went cold. And I'm talking, like, completely cold. No other follow-up is done until 2012. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Yeah, she's never found. But also, it doesn't seem like police were actually looking for her. Right. So literally, there's this note in the case file in August 2012. Mind you, this is 22 years after she goes missing. And I think it's so bananas, I need you to actually read it.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
22 years later? But, like, what does that mean? Does it actually mean anything? And, like, of course her name is on the mailbox 22 years later. Right. So, the thing I also don't know is, like, there's nothing in the report to say why an officer was even sent there in the first place.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Again, they can't possibly think they were going there to see Julie. The note says follow up on what? I know. And like, it's possible, again, maybe someone all those years ago gave the wrong address for her or someone made an error writing it down or something. I really don't know.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Again, as for why 22 years later, I'm assuming I have to think someone called in and asked for an update or made a tip. It just doesn't make sense to me. And I can't make sense of it with what they gave us.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And she discovers a disturbing pattern of dismemberments turning up all around Wisconsin. This episode will focus on two of those other victims and everything that we could find out about their cases from loved ones, detectives, tribal chiefs, coroners, and police reports. This is the story of Ray Tortolat and Julia Baez.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Seems that way. Yeah. And over the next three years, there is this like annual follow up with the case. But the reports are never more than a couple of sentences long. And in 2013, detectives call the number on file for Julie. But like, it's no longer in service. Duh. Yeah. So they check with the Department of Transportation to see if she updated her address.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
I have truly become obsessed with Helen's case, and I hope to bring you a whole episode on her one of these days, but today's not that day. So seven months after that, in October of 1983, dismembered partial remains of a man are found in Petrifying Springs Park in Kenosha County, a mere 15 minutes south of where Helen's dismembered body was found.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
But it hadn't been updated since around the time she went missing. And then it's the same story in 2014. And then in this 2014 report, the detective writes that Julie was reported missing by Luz in 2010, which is just like straight up wrong. But this detective at least tries to contact Luz unsuccessfully.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And actually, we tried to reach Pedro and her friend too, but no luck. So come 2014, Marisol, her daughter, decides she needs to put some pressure on investigators. Now that she's older and she can understand the situation a bit more, she goes back to the police station herself.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And what do you know? Eight months later, in July of 2015, detectives call Marisol and her sister Julie back down to the station. Their DNA had been a match to a Jane Doe's remains. What? Jane Doe? Where? Where and when?
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
So as it turns out, on October 10th, 1990, so this is four months after Julie disappeared, a man in Black River Falls, a city three hours west of Milwaukee, was out foraging for mushrooms when he stumbled upon a garbage bag containing... a human arm and leg. And then when police descend on this area and search it, they find more bags of dismembered remains nearby in a shallow grave.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And it looks like it had gotten partially dug up by animals. Now, according to the Jackson County Sheriff, quoted in the La Crosse Tribune at the time, most of the parts were bones, but some still contained some flesh. And after a thorough search of the area, officials told the papers that the only body part that they could not find... was ahead.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And according to Marisol, this discovery site was near a reservation as well, just like in Ray's case. And if Black River Falls sounds familiar, remember Larry, Reese Pocan's violent ex-boyfriend? Yeah. Remember, he now lives in Black River Falls. But at the time, no one makes the potential connections.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Police in Milwaukee and Jackson County, where Black River Falls is, aren't even thinking about Ray Tortola or Reese Pocant. They're telling local news outlets that the body was likely dumped by someone traveling through the region because this spot is a halfway point between the Twin Cities and Milwaukee. And they say, quote, people feel they're in a remote area.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Plus, there were no missing people in their county. And I almost couldn't believe this when I read it, but the Jackson County Sheriff said, quote, Jackson County is not the only place anything like this has happened. There are lots of them. There have been bodies found in Vernon, La Crosse, Marathon, and Juneau counties all over the state.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
This person is identified as 18-year-old Eric Hansen. He's our only male victim. Now, in May 1984, in Vernon County, which is western Wisconsin, a woman is found lying on the side of a gravel road a few miles outside of the town of Westby with her hands cut off and major trauma to her head. She has still never been identified, but she was likely in her 60s and wore dentures.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
You have heads without bodies, bodies without heads, bodies without hands. Jackson County is not by itself in any way.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Listen, I don't know, but I'm willing to bet that the sheriff only said this to somehow make the situation seem less like a big deal. Like, oh, don't worry, residents. There is nothing wrong with our county. This dismemberment stuff is happening everywhere. Oh, I feel way better now. I know. And now again, when he's making the statement, like the remains are still unidentified.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
But I'm kind of shocked that it took so long if they were looking for missing women far and wide. Now, the timing on all of this gets a little unbelievable because they only ended up doing DNA testing on this doe like months before Marisol gets Milwaukee PD to take her DNA, which is two decades later.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And what's also wild is that in all that time, Marisol had been looking for her mom, and she told us that she had seen that Jane Doe's NamUs page a ton.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
For Marisol and little Julie, just knowing where their mom was provided a huge relief. Julie had gone her whole life thinking that her mom had just abandoned them. As a kid, she was in and out of 12 different foster homes until she was finally adopted.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Finally, with a name for their Jane Doe, the Jackson County Sheriff tells the leader telegram that they're going to get to the bottom of who killed her. That before it was hard because they didn't have the name of their victim, didn't have a starting point. But all that was going to change starting now. Well, that was in July of 2015.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Unfortunately, from what I can tell, no further breaks ever come in the case. The only reason we know the little we do is from like an incident report. We also asked for interviews with detectives who like have her case or jurisdiction. They denied our request.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Emily did speak on background to a law enforcement source who worked on the case, but that source doesn't work for the Jackson County Sheriff's Office anymore. So like we didn't get a ton.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And it doesn't seem like they ever even considered that their dismemberment case could be connected to any others because Marisol and Julie, by the way, didn't even know about Reese Pocan or Ray Tortolat's cases until we brought them up in our interview.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
That's what they know about her. And her hands have still never been found. 30 minutes west of there, in February 1985, 24-year-old Terry Dalloway is found decapitated and on fire in a rural part of Vernon County. Now, Terry's case was unsolved, but there actually was a break in the case in the fall of 2024 when charges were brought against a man named Michael Popp.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
It's really only Detective Hatch in Sheboygan County who's trying to shed light on all the similarities between these cases.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Hatch is also working with Jackson County authorities to see if anyone on Reese Pocan's suspect list matches anyone in Julia Baez's case file. And he presented to the FBI's Cold Case Homicide Task Force about all of these Wisconsin dismemberment cases, some of which were not even on their radar. So these are all cases I wish I had more to bring you on.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
But we felt like the best thing we could do at this point is to just like get everything we do have out there for people to hear. Because maybe someone out there knows something about these Wisconsin women and our one man. Maybe someone is in law enforcement and they have a similar case that we don't even know about from that time period.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And if nothing else, maybe everyone can just come together and let Charlie and Michelle and Elise and Marisol and Julie all know that their mothers haven't been forgotten. That for this one moment, millions of people across the world are thinking about their moms. I believe there's so much power in the collective human consciousness.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
You might call it prayer, whatever we call it, however we direct our intentions to a singular focus of peace and justice, I do believe it's powerful. Here's Reese's daughter, Charlie.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Now, he pleaded not guilty in January of this year, actually. So, like, developments in her case are actively underway. Unclear if Pop is a suspect in any other cases. If this is, like, the outlier on all of this. I don't know. It's still actively unfolding. Then in spring of 1987, Indigenous woman Rae Tortolat's dismembered body is found on the Menominee Reservation in northern Wisconsin.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
This idea of speaking up, of bringing attention to the cases of women of color, was echoed by Ray, Julia, and Reese's daughters. Here's Reese's other daughter, Michelle.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Crime Junkies, please help us get justice for Reese, Ray, and Julia, and all of the Wisconsin dismemberment victims. From the get, our hope was to tell all of these stories. 12 total. That's still our hope, but there's just not enough information out there. We've tried getting interviews with detectives in all of the cases. We've filed records requests with little success.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
But let's make sure that the conversation doesn't end here. I'm going to put the list of cases that we want more information on in the description for this episode and on our website. If you have any information about any or all of the cases I've talked about last week and this week, in both part one and two of these episodes.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Or if you know anything about the pattern of dismemberments in Wisconsin, please reach out to Detective Nathan Hatch at the Sheboygan County Sheriff's Office. You can reach him at his office line, 920-459-3135, or at his email, nathan.hatch at sheboygancounty.com. And you can also message us. If you know something or if you're a loved one of one of the victims, drop us a line.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
We're counting on you to help us tell these long, overlooked stories and finally get some answers for the victims and their families. You can find all the source material for this podcast on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
We'll be back next week with a brand new episode, but stick around. We've got some good for you.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Then in the summer of 1989, we know Reese vanishes from Milwaukee, and then her remains are found in Sheboygan County and then the Vernon Marsh area in Waukesha County. The next comes on Thanksgiving Day, 1990. That's when the clothes and skeletal remains of a Jane Doe are found by deer hunters in Price County.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
I love it. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Through dental records, they're identified as belonging to Susan Poupart, who is an indigenous woman who vanished from a reservation in northern Wisconsin in six months prior to being found. Now, Susie's story has a lot of twists and turns. Our reporters became really interested in it while researching these cases.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
So that's the one I'm actually gonna be covering on the deck, which again is the other weekly podcast I host. So just keep an eye out for that one as well. Also in the fall of 1990, a Jane Doe's dismembered remains are found buried in a number of plastic bags near Black River Falls, Wisconsin. Her torso is buried in one bag. Her limbs are buried in a separate bag. Her head is never found.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And this woman is later identified as Julia Baez. And I'm going to tell you about her case in this episode. But after her, in 1991, a woman's body is found with severed hands at the Goose Lake Wildlife Preserve in Dane County, Wisconsin. Her hands had been cut off and are later found in Walworth County. She's laid to rest as a Jane Doe, but later identified as Doris McLeod.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
A man convicted of sex trafficking has long been suspected in the teenager's murder. Then in October 2002, Boy Scouts find the skull and lower mandible of a Jane Doe in a ravine in St. Croix County, which is like far western Wisconsin. And authorities have said that they likely belong to a Native American woman between the ages of 35 and 50.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And then lastly, in 2021, you heard that right, 2021, a skull is discovered in Oneida County, Wisconsin, which is found way up north, not far from Vilas County. The skull is missing a lower jawbone. And last I heard, investigators are working with anthropologists to determine who it could have belonged to. But a source told us that they thought that this person could have been Native American.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And here's the wild part. So that is our list that we're working with. One of the women on that list, the one I said I'm going to be covering, Rae Tortolat, she's Reese Pocan's cousin. What? Yeah, the connections are too bizarre to ignore.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
There really should have been a statewide task force or something, but because the cases were mostly in separate counties, no one was connecting the dots until now. So I need to step back from Reese's story and tell you about two of the other cases that we're going to dive into, starting with Reese's cousin, Ray Tortelot.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
So if you Google Ray, the first thing that pops up is this beautiful portrait of her when she was a Menominee tribal princess. From the people we spoke to, it sounded like Ray was super involved on the reservation. And the reservation is the last place she was ever seen on October 14th, 1986. That's when Ray, who was 18 at the time, went to a small house party.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
At the time, the Green Bay Press-Gazette reported that there were six other people at that party, all of whom Ray was friends with. So the story goes like this. Around midnight on October 14th, Ray says that she wants to leave the party and she gets a ride from one of the other partygoers. But when they get to her house, she doesn't want to go inside.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
So they kind of just drive around the reservation for a while and then they head back to the party. And then a little while later, Ray leaves the party again. But no one knows exactly when she ducked out that time or if she was with anyone when she did. I'm assuming this is all happening a little while after midnight. But honestly, the reports are like, they're really slim, not super detailed.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
So she walks out and then poof, she is just gone. She never makes it home. And the next day she's nowhere to be found. She gets reported missing to the tribal police, who act pretty quickly to put together search parties with canines. Like, they question everyone at the party that night. They contact other reservations and Indian centers.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And they also search the house where the party was, but they didn't find anything helpful. So this search for Ray goes on for two and a half weeks, but there is just no sign of her. And around this time, the tribal police chief tells the Green Bay Press-Gazette, quote, I've kind of given up a little bit, but I'll be out there looking again later on.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
No, but like to his credit, I mean, he actually contacts the FBI for assistance in the search, but they basically tell him that they can't conduct a full scale investigation without evidence of a crime.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
They say there is, quote, nothing to indicate to us that foul play was involved or that there was a federal problem, which is like a frustrating response to me, especially considering like it is tribal land and that is FBI jurisdiction. Right.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
At one point, detectives put a call out in the papers asking anyone who might have given Ray a ride during the early morning hours of October 15th to call them. No one does. Which to me makes that alleged ride that she got all the more suspicious.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
It's kind of your job to find the evidence.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And it's usually the families, right, who are shouting that from the rooftops. And that's how it was for Ray's family. Ray's mom, Josephine, tells the local papers that Ray had gone off on her own before, but it was usually for like three or four days, and they always knew where she was.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Josephine says that Ray didn't seem unhappy or distressed before the party, and apparently she had planned to be in a friend's wedding several days after she went missing. Plus, right before Ray went missing, she had just become a mom. Her newborn daughter, Elise, was not even two months old. And listen, I know new momming is like the hardest thing in the world. I cannot imagine doing it at 18.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
But everyone who knew Ray felt it in their bones. She wouldn't have left her daughter. But as for detectives with no leads... They're like really scraping the barrel. They even connect with a Native American psychic from Chicago who apparently tells them that Ray is either dead or in serious trouble.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And the psychic actually describes an area where Ray's body might be, which detectives promptly search to no avail.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And why they write them off so much now. And actually, in particular, this psychic, their name's Robin Furman. And she used her clairvoyant abilities to help with a number of police investigations in Wisconsin and other states. She claimed that she could get impressions, basically, of missing people. And I'm not sure if it's because of Robin or because of something else that I don't know about.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
But around this time, investigators change their tune, finally, to say that they do believe that Ray may be dead. But when asked whether or not foul play is involved in the case, they say, and I'm quoting here, yes and no. And before you ask, like, I have no idea what they meant by that.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Investigators never really explain that cryptic answer, but they do tell reporters that they have several suspects, including the men who, like, Ray allegedly got a ride with, like, from the party, like, to her house and then back. Wait, detectives know who they are? So they do, but no names are ever released to the public. In fact, I've never seen names in criminal cases so closely guarded before.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
By searching through newspaper archives and public records databases, our reporter Emily started finding more dismemberment victims in Wisconsin. In the years surrounding Reese's murder, at least 12 people, 11 of them women, were found whose heads or hands had been cut off during or after their murders.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
The chief of the tribal police, Chief Keith Tortolat, wouldn't even tell us their names off the record.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
So here's the thing. So the chief is actually Ray's cousin. Would that also make him cousins with Reese? Yep. I think they were like first cousins once removed. So like this case is personal for him, I would say. Anyway, they believe they know who gave Ray a ride. Again, that first time. We're not talking about like we don't know of anyone who like after the second time she left.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
From the party back to the party. Right. But they clearly don't have proof of anything because months go by without any arrests or new information. It's just like this flood of rumors. But those rumors must hold a little truth to them. Or just the sheer amount of time that goes by with no word from Ray finally holds more weight.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Because four months in, investigators officially announced that Ray Tortolat's case has become a murder probe and that they're calling in the FBI. Now, again, investigators won't say why they believe Ray was murdered. They say they have a suspect in mind, but just not enough evidence for an arrest. Again, names of the suspect or suspects never released.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And then in April of 1987, two months later, detectives are finally able to prove their assumption. Ray was murdered. The announcement comes after a hunter stumbles across a bra strap while he's out walking in a remote area of the Menominee Indian Reservation, which leads him then to a headless female body. Pretty much everything.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Every article at the time about the discovery mentions Ray in some way, so she is definitely on investigators' minds, but they don't want to say anything without proof. It's three days later when Josephine is able to identify the body as belonging to her daughter based on her clothing, and then a scientific identification comes through DNA testing, but that doesn't happen for 10 years.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
But at the time, detectives trust Josephine's words. Now, an autopsy is also done and the manner of death is ruled a homicide. But Chief Tortelot told us that for a number of reasons, mainly the state of the decomposition and the swampy area where the body was found and the missing head, the coroner wasn't able to determine a cause of death.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
And honestly, Britt, after this ruling, very little progress at all is made in Ray's case. And as much as we tried to dig into this case on our own, we ran into a lot of hurdles and a lot of roadblocks. For one, as Chief Tortelot told us, Ray's case file is very thin. Her investigation went cold almost immediately. And the work that has been done has been like extremely hush-hush.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Plus, people on the reservation are hesitant to talk about it, even to Elise, Ray's daughter.
Crime Junkie
WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2
Now, a handful of these women are still unidentified, and most of the cases have never been solved. All in different jurisdictions? For the most part, yes, which we're thinking is maybe why no one has kind of looked at this holistically before. And like when you see this, we haven't come across something like this. Like who are you supposed to tell?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And even in this devastating moment, they're thinking about how she can help others. So Liz is declared dead on Saturday, January 26th at 1.40 p.m. But she is kept on life support for the next few days to preserve her organs. Her loved ones barely leave her side during that time. I mean, they're hardly sleeping or showering, let alone thinking about the investigation.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Now, Deputy Ritchie does show them a censored version of the shooting footage, hoping that they'll recognize the killer or maybe the truck, which they don't. But after listening to the audio, they are convinced that Liz didn't know the shooter because they said if she did, she wouldn't have said, like, good morning. She would have said, like, good morning, so-and-so, like their name.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
I don't, yeah, I don't say people's, I'm not like, good morning, Brad. I'm just like, hey, you.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Whether I knew them or not. Yeah. I kind of went back and forth. This is actually something I had Nina, like, push on. But she said she talked to them and they are, like, adamant that whoever the shooter was, Liz did not know the shooter. Yeah. So by this point, the shooting video is circulating in the media as well.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And while it hasn't given police the big break that they thought it would, it is still a huge help. They might not be able to ID the killer, but they can start ruling people out. Like Liz was 5'2", and all things considered, detectives estimate that the killer was somewhere between 5'4 and 5'8". And they think they have an athletic build. Maybe they're like 140 to 175 pounds.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
No, it's not clear enough on the video for them to say. There's a lot of early speculation that it's a woman. Deputy Ritchie specifically thinks their mannerisms and gait appear kind of feminine, but he knows that doesn't necessarily mean anything. But while they're grappling with the uncertainty, they are getting clarity on other areas, too.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
So like piecing together a timeline of the killers movements from the area surveillance cameras. Now, it turns out that the Frontier was in the Barraza's neighborhood hours before the shooting, at around like 2 in the morning. Though Investigator Ritchie says that it didn't pass by their house at that time.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
So at first they think that she might have just accidentally set it off while she's like going in and out of the house or whatever. But when they call her to check, she doesn't answer the phone. And things get even more unsettling when the alarm company contacts them directly because they tried calling Liz and they can't get a hold of her either.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Yeah, and they can't see who's driving because the footage is too grainy. And without a plate number, they can't be 100% sure that it's the same Frontier, but like everything else matches. They're like pretty sure it was in the neighborhood at 2 a.m.,
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
It's not... I don't think they think that the person was sitting there from like 2 to 7 or at least that's like maybe not in the same spot. The camera only catches them from what I understand briefly at around 2. But then after that, we don't know where the truck goes or what they're doing. If it's even there in the neighborhood at all. Were they lying in wait off camera? Maybe.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Did they leave and then come back? What we do know for sure is that they're back at around 6.48 a.m. Literally right as Sergio was leaving for work.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Maybe. But even that doesn't totally make sense because, like, they didn't actually, or apparently... They weren't by the house at 2. They were just, like, in the neighborhood. Right. Because, like, the Barraza's camera doesn't pick them up. So if they're scoping out the house, they're scoping the house outside of... Where the house actually is.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
The camera view, which to me would mean that you already know about the house or that there's a camera outside. Yeah. I don't know. It feels like pre-scoped. Right. But maybe they were just getting a feel for the neighborhood or like how they're going to... Like escape route situation. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Anyways, when they returned later that morning, the driver briefly rolled into the parking lot of a preschool near the entrance of the Brazos subdivision. Then they pulled out and headed toward their street. But instead of turning right toward their house, they make that left, hit a U-turn, stop the truck, and then cut the lights.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Now, from where they parked, it seems like they knew Sergio's van would pass them almost like about four minutes after he left. That's when the killer makes their move. And I know this is a lot to visualize. So we are going to have maps and stuff on the blog post, along with links to the videos that I've been talking about, which various news sites have already shared.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
So the whole point is the whole thing seems carefully planned. Even the murder weapon, which they haven't found, points to that. So there were no shell casings at the scene suggesting that the killer used a revolver, likely a .38 caliber based on the bullets that they recovered.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And revolvers keep their shell casings inside, which would be a smart choice for anyone who wants to avoid like leaving evidence behind or having to take the time to clean up evidence they left behind. So someone went to a lot of trouble to kill Liz and to get away with it. But now police need to figure out why. Because the why should lead them to the who.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
So Rosemary gives them the go ahead to notify police and she and Bob throw on some clothes, jump in the car and head straight to Liz's home in Tomball, Texas, which is like 15 minutes away. Bob told our reporter, Nina, that a lot of that morning is just a blur for him at this point. But he does remember speaking to their daughter's husband, Sergio Barraza, on the drive over.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
As detectives delve into Liz's world, there is one major focus, and that's the 501st Legion, that Star Wars group. This isn't some casual fan club. It requires a serious commitment from members who dress as Star Wars villains while doing charity work, which makes them think kind of about the strange disguise that the shooter wore.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Maybe that unusual flowy costume and those boots could have been part of a stormtrooper uniform. Maybe. Like, I actually have, it's so hard to see, but I have, like, a screenshot. And I think it's actually better, like, in motion.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Yeah, because you can see, I've heard Princess Leia somewhere as well, but you can, like, see how it flows out.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And listen, even though, like, most of what this group is about is charity, anytime you have a large, passionate group of people, drama feels a little inevitable. And Liz's local squadron was no exception. Investigators hear about personality clashes, rivalries, arguments.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
They check her out, but after interviewing her, they're convinced— that she's not involved. And actually, after looking at all of them in this group, they don't think Liz's killer was on the group's roster. And by the way, none of them drive a frontier. So at that point, the investigators turn their attention to another big part of Liz's life, her job.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Now, she's a data reporter at the Rosen Group, which is this company that inspects oil and gas pipelines. So she worked at the Houston branch with a small, close-knit team And it doesn't take investigators long to clear all of them, too. Liz was the only one who was out of office that Friday.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And when they map out her colleagues' addresses and times that they showed up for work, it is clear that none of them could have killed her. And again, no frontiers in the mix.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Deputy Ritchie considers that, but he says that her job duties were like really straightforward. She literally just like took data from robots that inspect pipelines and then turned in reports. So like there is nothing he can see that would make her a target. The thing that seemed to maybe make her a target or I should say like an easy target on that particular day was the garage sale.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And I have to believe, like so many people I've seen like talk about this on the Internet, that that is the key to everything. Because it turns out that almost no one knew she was having it that day. The only people in Liz and Sergio's life that they told about the garage sale were some family members and her coworkers. They didn't post anything online.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Sergio says that they only put up two signs, neither of which even listed the address. But this, it wasn't a last minute thing either, I should say. So it was Liz's idea. And her mom, Rosemary, told us that she had been talking about it for at least a month, although it's not clear when she finalized the date or like requested the time off from work.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
But it's still like a pretty small group of people, like even more so now that they've ruled out her co-workers. You know what I mean? Like at least when you post on Facebook Marketplace or something, like your suspect pool becomes like it's the whole Internet. Right. But that didn't happen here. So we're working with a very small, very specific group of people.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Now, Sergio's not home. As a crew chief for his father's flooring company, he'd already left for the day. But he tells them that he also got the alarm alert. And when he checked their Nest doorbell camera, like the live feed for it, He saw police tape and cops, like, in the background.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Apparently that's like how it's done around there. Her dad, Bob, says that Friday is like when the serious garage sale. Like the day. Yeah. And Liz planned to like run the sale through Saturday before they left. They were going to leave on Sunday. So like that's just how it works down there.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
No. And again and again, police keep coming back to one thing. Based on everything they know, Liz was the target. This doesn't feel random. It wasn't like it was going to be her or someone else that day. It was about her and only her. So they look back at the person closest to her, Sergio.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Now, they learned that he and Liz were college sweethearts who bonded over shared interests like traveling and dressing up for Star Wars events and Renaissance fairs. They married in February of 2014, bought their house a couple of years later, and truly detectives comb through their stuff, their phones, their bank records. They are looking for anything that might connect Sergio to the crime.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
A strange call or text around the time of the shooting, unexplained financial transactions. But there is nothing.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
They wanted to, but Investigator Ritchie says that the DA's office wouldn't authorize it. When you're talking about, I think you were already talking about it as a cell phone dump. Yes. So those are actually pretty controversial because phone companies are basically turning over data on every single device that pinged a specific tower during a set of times.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Yeah, a wide area, even phones that like weren't being used. And they've become the subject of a lot of legal battles. So long story short is if Sergio did have a burner phone, we might never know. Right. And I do want to add like a little caveat about their finances. So Sergio is an independent contractor for his dad's business. So he has to handle his own taxes. Right.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
The Barrazas have a financial advisor, but Liz managed their shared accounts. Sergio just kind of, like, handed over his paycheck each week, and the only separate accounts that they had were very, like, low-limit credit cards used to buy each other gifts. Which is all that to say, yes, the bank records are clean. I don't know if that, like, proves everything.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
I mean, if you're hiring someone to kill your spouse, you're probably not paying them from your checking account, I would assume, your joint checking account. No.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Well, here's what I can tell you. So the longer the case drags on without finding the shooter, the more convinced everyone is that it was a professional hit. To your point, like it doesn't have to be a lot. And they're sure someone was hired to do this. And while police can't connect Sergio directly to it, he is still the obvious suspect for this. But Sergio keeps cooperating.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And he even, this is wild, he, like, used the speaker on the doorbell camera to try and talk to them, like, what is going on. He did get someone's attention, but they wouldn't tell him what was happening. They just said that he needed to get home immediately. So when Bob and Rosemary pull into Liz's neighborhood, it is like every parent's worst nightmare unfolding before their eyes.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
He takes and passes a polygraph like anything police want, he gives them.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Well, yes. And there were some inconsistencies in his story. Like, at first he told police that he and Liz put up the garage sale signs the morning of the shooting. Then later he changes, says it was the night before, which would have been Thursday, January 24th.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Which might not mean anything, but I'm still curious about it because I haven't spotted pictures of these signs in any of the news coverage and in all of our reporting. We haven't actually found anyone who saw the signs.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Deputy Ritchie hasn't even seen them. But I also don't know if police looked for them. Like with everything going on, it probably wasn't a high priority. So again, maybe it's nothing. Still, if anyone listening has seen them, like our DMs are open. Yeah. But honestly, the whole sign thing is pretty minor compared to what investigators learn about Liz's life insurance.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
So remember how Sergio told detectives that Liz had a policy, it was through her work.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Well, it turns out me and Sergio have different ideas about, like, what not a whole lot means. Because that policy is actually worth a quarter of a million dollars. What? ! Yeah, and since Liz was murdered, a double indemnity clause doubles that payout to half a million dollars.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
I know, which feels like all the red flags we need. But hang on, because this is where like, I don't know, this might not be the smoking gun. I think it would be in every like husband did a case. Right. So the weird part is, by all accounts, Sergio genuinely didn't seem to know how much the policy was worth. Liz got the policy when she started working at Rosen back in 2014.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And it was actually her dad, not Sergio, who encouraged her to get all of the coverage that her company offered. Bob thought it was like too good of a deal to pass up. But either way, whether he knew about it, whether he didn't know about it, like all the things Deputy Ritchie warned Sergio. He's like, don't even think. Right.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Just him. Yeah, but here is the big problem with, like, Sergio as the mastermind theory. Every single person detectives talk to, friends, family, coworkers, everyone tells them that he and Liz were really happy together. Like, normally when you dig, right, you've got the life insurance policy and the timing is so weird. There's someone that...
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
There is like Deputy Ritchie. He digs and digs. He doesn't find anything to suggest, like anything funky going on in texts, in emails. He goes through all of it. There is no hint of an affair. There is no fights, nothing. And look, like, who couldn't use an extra half a million dollars to make life easier? But it's not like the couple was in major debt or anything like that.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Like, normally you'll see, okay, like, the money was the motive. That's not the case here. They lived within their means. He didn't need that money to get out of a bind or to start over. Right. But there was someone else very close to Sergio who was apparently in a significant financial bind. That is Sergio's 57-year-old father, Oscar.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Their daughter's usually quiet street is swarming with emergency vehicles. First responders tell them that a young woman has just been airlifted to the hospital. And as they get closer, they realize that all the commotion and activity is centered around their daughter's house. And there is this trail of blood on the driveway mixed in near items that she had set out for the garage sale.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Now, you see, Sergio's mom had recently discovered that Oscar was cheating with multiple women. And that was bad enough. But then they learned that he was also spending a lot of money on these girlfriends, like to the point where his finances were suffering. One of Sergio's paychecks that he had gotten bounced recently.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And while they weren't hurting for money, Liz was like understandably upset by this. And according to that Paula Zahn episode, Oscar blames Sergio's bounce check on just like an accounting error. He tells investigators that his finances are totally straight. Everything's good. But county court records show that around this time, Oscar was hit with several lawsuits for unpaid taxes.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And in divorce filings, Sergio's mom said that he gave over $20,000 to three different women.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
She kind of was. So this again, this is where like it doesn't totally add up. Like because from what Sergio tells police, she never confronted Oscar about this. Sergio says that he and Liz decided basically to stay out of it. And after all, I mean, he still worked for his dad.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
The only thing that investigators have theorized is like, well, what if Oscar knew about Liz's life insurance and then he thought Sergio might invest the payout into the family business?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
That's what I'm saying. It doesn't make sense because police can't find any proof that Oscar did know about the life insurance. It's still a possible theory. But it seems so far-fetched. I know. Now, it's clear to them, same thing with Sergio. It's like clear to them that the surveillance footage doesn't show Oscar. He isn't the shooter. But then they have the same question, right?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Maybe. So on the Paula Zahn episode, Sergio implies that he was the one who first suggested his dad's potential connection. Oh. But at any rate, like his son, Oscar is cooperative. He passes a polygraph. And when detectives go through his phone and bank records, they can't find anything linking him to Liz's murder.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
So while Oscar has made some questionable decisions with his life, there is no evidence that he plotted to have his daughter-in-law killed. And so a couple of weeks into their investigation, police aren't much further than they were when they started. They've ruled people out, but they're not any closer to arresting anyone.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And that seems impossible in a case that feels like it should be so straightforward. Like they need something more. They need something solid to go on. So they decide they're going to go ask the public for help. And on Wednesday, February 6th, investigators and Crimestoppers joined Liz's loved ones for this big press conference to announce a $20,000 reward for information.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And Bob, followed by Sergio, make heartbreaking pleas to the public.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Now, initially, officers are tight-lipped, but they tell Bob and Rosemary the most critical detail, and that is that it was Liz, their daughter, who's been shot.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
So it seems like Liz's family is standing by Sergio. Oh, yeah. I mean, he's actually been living with the Nellies since the shooting. So they're still, like, presenting as one unit. They're still close. And standing next to her family, her parents and Sergio, Deputy Ritchie feels the weight of their pain and the mounting frustration of unanswered questions.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
But what keeps him optimistic is that they already do have a critical piece of the puzzle. Information about the shooter's truck. A Nissan Frontier is what's considered a midsize pickup. And in Texas, where big full-size pickups dominate, he figures that it should stick out like a sore thumb.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
So they pour their efforts into tracking this car down, hoping that this is going to be the brake they so desperately need. When Deputy Ritchie gets the registration records for Harris County, which includes Houston and the surrounding areas, he finds out that there are over 1,000 frontiers.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Yes. And ultimately, they do narrow it down a bit more thanks to Nissan. They have the salesman who recognizes the specific style. So it's a four-door Pro 4X crew cab that was made from like 2013 to 2019. Great. Unfortunately, the registration database only lists the basics. So it doesn't specifically say if like someone has a Pro 4X or whatever, like two-door, four-door or whatever.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
So the police were actually the ones who set it off. Oh. They were responding to 911 calls of gunshots in the neighborhood. And when they arrived, she was laying on the driveway near the garage, still breathing, but barely. She had like a faint pulse. That's where she was shot.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Not quite. So what they decided to do is they actually go and use a license plate reader system to sift through the database, highlighting potential matches and then using photos to eliminate trucks that clearly don't fit. But they also can't just go knocking on the door of every dark-colored but probably Black Frontier owner in Texas.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Instead, they look for trucks caught on the plate reader camera near the crime scene that morning. But even that doesn't lead anywhere.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Like, for instance, there's a Black Frontier that police stopped nearby right after the shooting, but it didn't have the same decals as the killer's truck. And then they can't, like, those aren't things that can just be, like, removed on a whim. Plus, the driver was an older Hispanic man whose body type didn't even match the shooter. So, like, they quickly ruled that one out.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Well, no, because it's Texas. There's no state-level registration requirements for firearms. And honestly, if I had to guess, I don't even know that the killer would use a legally registered gun for this.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Well, police look into that, like or at least the stolen. There weren't any reports of stolen frontiers or even like stolen license plates from frontiers like during that whole time. But it is still possible or like they used a fake plate or maybe they borrowed a plate and then put it back for anyone who knew. Right. There are just like too many maybes for detectives to draw any real conclusions.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
But speaking of the truck, so the one thing they hone in on, remember the strange doubling back that the shooter did? Well, surveillance footage shows that after shooting Liz, this person drove all the way to the main entrance of the subdivision, nearly a good quarter of a mile away before making a U-turn and then driving back past the Barraza's.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And again, initially, nobody knew what that was about, like, because they didn't get out, they didn't stop, whatever. So it gets Stephanie Ritchie wondering if maybe someone like called the shooter, like the person who's pulling the strings and told them to go back and make sure she was dead. So he gets this idea.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And the alarm only went off when officers went through the unlocked door between the garage and the house to like secure the scene.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
He's like, I'm going to try geofencing, which is completely different than like the cell tower dump we were talking about. Geofencing, like you literally get a very specific area for a very specific time and it'll tell you like what. All the activity. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
So he puts a digital perimeter around the Braz's house and he gets a warrant for Google location data from every device in that zone around that time of the shooting. Hope being that if a device moved in and out of the geofence at the right time, that could lead to the shooter. So detectives wait and they wait. And finally, around May or June of 2020, they get the results.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
But it's another disappointment because the only device with unusual movement belonged to first responders. So the killer, at least they're thinking, probably didn't even bring a phone with them. Though there could be another simple explanation for why they came back by the Barraza house.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
The other thing they start thinking is like, what if they turned around because they were trying to avoid running into police? Yeah, a resident security camera caught the truck heading toward a dead end cul-de-sac right after the shooting. And that is the last anyone sees the truck. It doesn't turn around. It doesn't come back. It couldn't have just vanished there.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
So Bob and Rosemary are like reeling. Liz is the most positive person they know. She's creative. She's kind, always helping others. She's a Harry Potter fanatic who spends her free time reading and dressing as Star Wars characters to visit sick kids. So like in the immediate moment, they're like, who on earth would do this to our daughter?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
though no the um they think that maybe it went off-roading like jumped the curb like at the end of this cul-de-sac tore out through yeah like there's like this um green belt area that gets you to the main road and they're thinking that maybe they went far enough away where law enforcement because if you think about it like i told you law enforcement's there within like minutes so if they're coming in the main entrance which they probably would have used like they can't get out without passing them yeah they might have seen them they turn around they like hightail it out of there
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
So, Investigator Ritchie says that they went house to house. By the way, I don't think that theory was part of the initial police investigation, though. Like, Liz's parents learned—and I'm talking about, like, them jumping the— Yeah, the off-roading. Yeah. Yeah. Liz's parents learned that through a YouTuber named Aaron Stoner, who analyzes cold cases.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And so while this might not be the breakthrough that catches their daughter's killer, it at least matters to Bob and Rosemary. Like, in the face of so much uncertainty, any clarity that, like, they can be brought brings them comfort. But it doesn't bring him answers. And life without Liz is a constant struggle. Sergio never goes back to the house that they shared. Bob helps him sell it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
He stays with the Nellies for nearly a year, though eventually he does get a new place. He does start dating again. And for Bob and Rosemary, it's like that moment is bittersweet. Like it's hard to see him moving on, but they are happy for him. I mean, they know it's what Liz would have wanted. Mm-hmm. The public, however, has like a very different reaction.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Like it's always the people not closest to everyone who has like the strongest feelings. Because when Sergio posts something online about being engaged again, police are like flooded with tips. Rumors start swirling that he and his fiance Amber were having an affair before Liz was murdered, that Amber was somehow involved. Sergio denies it all.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
He and Amber went to the same high school, but, like, so did thousands of other students, and they insist they didn't know each other at the time. He tells KHOU11 reporter Grace White that they ended up meeting on a dating app in 2020, which was after her murder. Mm-hmm. Now, investigators don't just dismiss the gossip outright. By now, Michael Ritchie has been promoted to sergeant.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
He's transferred to another division, but he is still working the case. He like goes so far as to like dig through old high school yearbooks after hearing like maybe there's a photo of Sergio and Amber together. He comes up empty. Amber even ends up taking a polygraph, which she passes.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
So while no one has been completely cleared, Sergeant Ritchie is confident that Amber had nothing to do with Liz's murder.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And it's not even just because of social media like that these stories are spinning. So the constable's office accidentally released incorrect information early on, which just like added to the confusion of everything. Yeah. And that's why Bob and Rosemary created their own website, WhoKilledLizBarraza.com. It gives them a chance to set the record straight, keep Liz's story alive.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And this isn't a high crime area either we're talking about. It is this nice middle class neighborhood. Drive-by shootings are not something that they deal with. So before her parents can even begin to wrap their heads around this, Sergio pulls up. And police ask him to stay nearby for questioning.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
But they know a website alone isn't going to get them justice. Someone out there has to know something. Maybe they just need a little incentive. So on the third anniversary of Liz's murder, they announced that the reward is now up to $50,000, thanks in large part to a community fundraiser. And they're not the only ones who refused to give up.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
When Sergeant Ritchie transfers back to homicide in early 2023, he takes over as lead investigator again. He's grown close to the Nellies in all this time, and he wants to get them answers. But he warns Bob and Rosemary that learning the truth about who's behind her murder, is going to devastate them.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
That's what I thought too. But he told us it wasn't about a specific suspect. It's more like he's been trying to prepare them from the start that whatever happened, whoever did this, it was probably someone close to them. It goes back to the original theory, right? Like someone targeted her, someone who knew she'd be out there that day.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
They're really careful not to point fingers. They are confident and police agree that this wasn't the work of just one person. They think that there was a shooter and then there was someone who put the shooter up to it. But figuring out who those people are and why is enough to drive anyone up a wall. Like I said, Nina and I sat in my office spiraling.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
When I first decided we were going to cover this case, I had heard about it. Like, I knew the story. And I was like, this has to be one where when you talk to detectives, when you talk to the family— We're just missing a piece of it that's not in the reporting right now. Right. Like, oh, we just can't say this thing out loud.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Let me be the one to assure you as a crime junkie, there is not something that I'm not telling you out loud.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
This is it. And nothing makes sense. So in a world where nothing makes sense, what her parents have done is they've tried to focus on things that give them a sense of purpose, like the impact of Liz's final gift. The recipients of her organs had spent a combined 22 years on transplant lists before receiving her heart, her liver, kidneys, and corneas.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And her best friend started the Liz Library, which donates Harry Potter books, like the sets of them, to children's hospitals in her honor. And Bob and Rosemary are channeling their energy into supporting other parents of homicide victims as well.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And Brett, like this is one where truly when I say I have no idea what happened, I have no idea what happened because there is no theory that makes complete sense. And Nina and I, she's the reporter that worked on this. We were in my office, I mean, going round and round and round for literally like an hour talking about theories and feelings.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
They're not as much as they used to be, but I mean, he joined them for another press conference on the fifth anniversary of Liz's murder. They also reached out to him on our behalf to see if he would speak with us. He told them that he would think about it, but then we never heard back. And I get it. Like, he's got a new life now. He's got a new wife. He recently became a dad.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
So while he waits there along with his mom who shows up to be with him, the Nellies rush to the trauma center to be with their daughter. They are clinging to hope the whole 40-minute drive over, praying that she's going to pull through. But when they get to the hospital, the same one where Liz spent so many hours volunteering, doctors tell them that she's not going to make it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
He doesn't work for his father anymore. He still, from what I can tell, doesn't know if Oscar was involved in Liz's death and that I would imagine, like, put a big wedge between them.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
No, he told Grace White that he doesn't need it. But the reality also has to be that he knows investigators would like fight to keep that money from being released still.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
No. I mean, they can ask the insurance company to deny payment. They can't block it indefinitely without a court order. And since Sergio hasn't been charged with anything, like, he could push for that money if he wanted to. I think the insurance company would probably have to pay up eventually, like, if he started that fight. But he would have to be the one to start that process.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Yeah, I don't think he will. Like, he knows a lot of people believe that he's responsible for Liz's death. And I think he thinks trying to claim that money would, like, just add fuel to that fire. Mm-hmm. And again, like the life insurance is just one piece of a larger puzzle, one that the Internet sleuths have been trying to solve since the day Liz was murdered.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
If you go down these online rabbit holes, which believe me, I have, you will find every scenario under the sun. But there are a couple that I've seen pop up like a couple of times that it's worth hitting on. One is that the shooter might have had access to the Barraza's Nest doorbell camera system and like could have been monitoring their movements in real time. Like they were hacked? Maybe.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Or there was speculation maybe that Sergio and Liz might have had a public URL enabled on their camera, meaning that anyone with the link could view the live stream. But like Liz's parents were adamant that's just not something she would do.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And as for whether Liz or Sergio gave the login to anyone, like I highly doubt it since, I mean, Bob and Rosemary didn't have it and we know how security conscious they were.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Right. But then if someone did have it or hacked it or whatever, like that would have left a digital footprint. And that kind of data might be able to connect to a specific person or device or location or whatever. But it doesn't seem like police accessed those records, although I don't know why they left that out.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
I think we're all just grasping at straws, grasping at anything, because I'm telling you, nothing makes sense. And the timing is so precise. So another theory is that Liz's murder was a gang initiation. Like someone had to commit a random act of violence to prove themselves.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And I I think this one only started at least in part because I think that at one point it was noted that the Texas anti-gang unit got involved with the investigation. But specialized units often help with complex cases. Like they have resources, expertise that local departments don't have. So like I don't read much into it. Like if anything, I don't know.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
What's clear, though, is that this case has never truly gone cold. The sheriff's office has worked with the Texas Rangers. They worked with the FBI. They were following leads across the country, even into Mexico at one point. No one has been completely ruled out as a suspect, including Sergio and Oscar. But investigators have looked at them from every angle.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
She's been shot point blank four times. Once through the side of her neck, twice in the chest, and finally once in the head. So while Liz is still technically alive, police know that it's going to be a homicide case now. And while her parents grieve, the Harris County Sheriff's Office jumps in with Deputy Michael Ritchie at the helm.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And as of right now, they have hit a wall. So Sergeant Ritchie is challenging himself to think differently, to reconsider every assumption. But no matter how he approaches it, he keeps circling back to the same core questions. Who knew about the garage sale? Who had motive to kill Liz? And who could fit the description of the shooter?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Liz's loved ones have spent six years searching for those answers. They need our crime junkies' help. If you know anything about what happened to Liz, please call the Houston Crime Stoppers at 713-222-TIPS. The $50,000 reward is still on the table, and it can be collected anonymously. You can also contact the Harris County Sheriff's Office at 713-274-9100.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. And be sure to check out our YouTube channel. We'll be posting this as a video in the coming weeks. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And as he and other investigators question Sergio, it quickly becomes clear to them that it actually hadn't been a typical morning for the couple, even before the shooting.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
So normally, Liz leaves for work by 6.30, 6.45, but she had taken the day off for that garage sale she was doing, which she had prioritized to make some extra spending money for her and Sergio's trip to Disney and Universal Studios. They were supposed to leave for Florida that Sunday to celebrate their upcoming fifth wedding anniversary.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
So between what Sergio tells investigators and what they're able to pull from the doorbell camera footage that he gives them, police know that Liz was up super early. She went to Starbucks at 6.08 and then the couple started setting up the sale in the driveway when she got back. And then Sergio left for work at exactly 6.48.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Now, Sergio says that he drove to a Lowe's about five miles away to meet his flooring crew. Everything was fine until he got that security alert on his phone. And he explains that on his way home, he like actually actively was like rewinding the doorbell footage, trying to find out what happened. And while he couldn't see the shooting itself, he could hear it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And the story I have for you, it is about the baffling murder of a young woman. It is the kind of case where, like, everything feels like it's going to fall into place at first with all of the pieces that they have. They literally have the murder on film. So investigators are super confident that they're going to catch their killer within hours. But six years have gone by and it is still unsolved.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And he shares the footage with investigators, too. Now, the sound quality isn't great, but what is audible is Liz greeting someone and she's cheerful. She says, good morning. And there's this like muffled brief exchange of words followed by four deafening gunshots. And then Liz screams. And there has been endless speculation about what was said in that quick conversation.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
But even after detectives enhance the audio, all they can hear for sure is just Liz's good morning, the shots and the scream.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Well, not on the Barraza's camera, but a neighbor's security camera caught the entire thing. This is what is so wild and why I said this case is so frustrating. So as Deputy Ritchie reviews all of the footage that he can get his hands on, he cannot believe how brazen it was. So what he sees is there's this dark-colored pickup that pulls up at around 6.52 a.m.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
This is four minutes after Sergio left. The truck first passes Liz's house, then it like makes a U-turn, parks at the curb, and then the driver, who appeared to be alone in the vehicle... Leaves the vehicle running. Walks over to where Liz was setting up. And it's so weird. They're wearing what looks like a disguise. What? It's like this... You can't really see because it's still dark outside.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And we were just losing our minds because we're trying to get the pieces to add up. But her family's hoping that someone, maybe somebody even listening or watching right now, can help bring them the justice that they have so desperately been seeking. This is the story of Elizabeth Barraza.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
So, like, the footage is almost like night vision, kind of. But it's like a flowy coat or robe paired with what detectives call go-go style boots. Like, I can't really see the boots. And then... maybe this person has a really long hair or it might be a wig. And I'm saying like they because like police can't even determine if this shooter is a man or a woman.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
The video quality, like I said, is super poor. Everything's cast in this like bluish gray tint. But this shooter approaches Liz. You can see them like have this exchange. It looks like they might even have shown her something. Like there's this moment where it looks like... Like kind of a transaction. Yeah. Yeah. But police don't find anything like a note at the scene or something.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Or a pamphlet or anything. Yeah. And this person pulls out a gun and they shoot her three times. She collapsed and then they stood over her and that's when they like fired that final shot to her head. And then as soon as that final shot is fired, they run back to their truck and leave. The entire encounter is over in less than a minute.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
No. Like I said, it was still kind of dark out. Multiple people heard the gunshots. They're the ones who contacted 911. The first call actually came from a man who lived across the street. He had a clear view of the shooter's truck, which he's able to tell them is a Nissan Frontier that is almost certainly black.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
But this is what's really puzzling to investigators is that in less than two minutes after the neighbor called, while he was still on the phone with dispatch, there's this eerie moment where the truck drives back past the Barraza's house again. And like everything about this crime looks so professional and planned and deliberate.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
But this doubling back past the scene, this is the part that seems sloppy, like an amateur move that like almost certainly would have gotten them caught, like given the right circumstances.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
No, like they didn't stop. They didn't get out. Like, I don't know what the reason was. And unfortunately, again, this should have been a sloppy move. But for whatever reason, luck was on this shooter's side because no one gets a good look at their license plate number. And none of the surveillance footage that they do get is clear enough to ID it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
But still, in those early times, Deputy Ritchie is optimistic. They've got this video footage, plus constables were on the scene within minutes, and they quickly put out a bolo for a Black Nissan Frontier.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
No, like, minutes tops from the time police arrived. But the real reason that Richie is so confident is that this seems way too methodical to be random. Like, this had to have been targeted. It feels pointed. Right. Like, take how the shooter approached. When they pulled up, the Barraza's house was to their left. So the driver's side door was already facing the driveway.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
The easiest move would have been to just stop right next to it, quick in, quick out.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Instead, they make that U-turn. They turn around and park like farther down the street. That meant getting out, walking around the front of the truck to reach the driveway, then running back after the shooting. But the maneuvering kept them mostly hidden from the Barraza's nest camera. So Deputy Ritchie thinks that they knew where that camera was and what that camera could see.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Maybe. But whoever did this, the real feeling they're getting is that they must know a lot about the Barrazas. I mean, on any other day, Liz would not have even been home, let alone outside alone. Now, investigators figure that Sergio is going to give them a name. Like, who is the person that has a grudge against Liz who drives a black Nissan Frontier, like case closed? But that's not what happens.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Sergio mentions there is one woman who Liz had a disagreement with. She is a member of a Star Wars fan group that they belong to. It's called the 501st Legion. But he insists that, like, whatever disagreement they had, like, it was petty drama, nothing that would ever lead to murder. Actually, the first thing Sergio suggests is maybe this was some kind of robbery gone wrong.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
But police know that that doesn't track. Nothing had been taken. Liz had $100 in a lockbox for making change for the garage sale. That's still there untouched.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
You're right. It is obvious. And Deputy Ritchie isn't taking anything Sergio says at face value. He knows they have to start at square one. And square one is always the person closest to the victim. The investigators ask about the couple's marriage, which according to Sergio, is perfect. They've been together for years, just like living their best lives with their docs and diesel.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
No affairs, no serious issues. He tells them that he would never harm Liz. And detectives are confident that he didn't pull the trigger. I mean, even if they hadn't checked with the people that like he met up with at Lowe's. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But he gives them access to everything, the house, their electronics, his phone, Liz's phone, which she had with her.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
And according to an episode of On the Case with Paula Zahn, he even tells them about a life insurance policy that she had through her employer, which he would be the beneficiary of. Although he says that he doesn't even think it's worth that much. But from the start, investigators think even if he is so cooperative, like there is something off about him.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Sergio keeps saying how worried he was about Liz holding that garage sale alone, that he encouraged her to have someone with her, but she said she'd be fine. And that's actually why the alarm was set on the house to begin with, even though she was outside. He says that he had her set it on the door from the garage at the house.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
That way, if anything went wrong, all she would have to do was run to the door and open it, and then help would be on the way. Hmm.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Yeah. Again, they're in a pretty nice neighborhood, too, which is like I keep taking into account. I don't think there was like a history of garage sale robberies or anything even remotely close. But Sergio like just tells police that they're just super cautious people. But that isn't the only thing that's raising red flags. His overall demeanor is odd to them.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Like sitting in a police car listening to the doorbell camera audio with Deputy Ritchie, he almost seems calm. Like the deputy is expecting some kind of reaction as they hear those like booming gunshots and they hear Liz scream. But Sergio's face is just blank. Now, some early police reports claim that Sergio never asked about Liz's condition, but that is actually not entirely accurate.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
So he was talking to investigators from at least two different agencies. And while he might not have asked everyone, at some point he definitely inquired about her status and whether he could go to the hospital. But when detectives finished questioning him and tell him he can leave... He doesn't. Deputy Ritchie watches as he kind of just lingers around. He's, like, talking to neighbors.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
I'm not sure what investigators have told him or, like, what updates he's getting from her family, but obviously he knows that she's shot and has been airlifted to the hospital.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Yeah, and his lack of urgency isn't what detectives expect in that situation. Mm-hmm. Now, meanwhile, the Nellies are at the hospital trying to process what feels like a nightmare. Liz is registered under an alias in case the shooter is still after her, which is like such a weird reality for them to be in. They have no idea what is going to happen next or what they're supposed to do next.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
It's around 720 on the morning of Friday, January 25th, 2019, when Bob and Rosemary Nellie wake up to their phones buzzing. And it's a notification from the alarm system on their daughter's home. Now, they know Elizabeth, Liz, as everyone calls her, is holding a garage sale that day.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Elizabeth Barraza
Not really. No, like everyone, I think everyone is just so focused on Liz and they know police needed to question him. Plus, Bob and Rosemary trust him. They have never doubted that he loves their daughter. So when Sergio and his mom do finally get to the hospital, which is sometime that afternoon, he and Bob arrange one final act of generosity on Liz's behalf. They are going to donate her organs.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And we actually have a special guest today. If you hear a little whimpers or tippy taps or anything. Or snores. For the first time since like early days Crime Junkie, old man Chuck is in the room while we're recording. So please forgive us. But our 14-year-old man wanted to cuddle today and I'm allowing it. Totally.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Love it. So these are supposedly some of the personal problems that Sergeant Burke is referring to. Although put a pin in that because we're going to circle back to it later. But personal problems are not. The women's families don't agree. And they are just more convinced by the day that the disappearances weren't by choice.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And on July 14th, this is just 12 days in, that fear starts to gain traction when a brutal crime captures the attention of, well, everyone. Now, it's very different, but it involves multiple young women being held and killed at a single time by a single person and from the same area where the women are from, Chicago. So it at the time does feel worth looking into.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And let me just give you a little like the spark notes on this case. Corky Shemoshko reports for NBC News that around 11 p.m. on the night of July 13th, a man armed with a gun and a hunting knife climbed through the first floor window of a Chicago townhouse where six student nurses were sleeping in two upstairs bedrooms. He crept up the stairs, woke up all six students.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
and corralled them into a third bedroom, binding their hands behind their back. And he spent the next few hours walking them out of the room, one by one, and killing them, one after another. Some of them by stabbing, some by strangulation, and some by a combination of the two.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And I don't know why this next detail bothers me so much, but his victims weren't even just the six women in the house when he broke in because three more residents had the great fortune of being gone when the bloodshed started and the even greater misfortune of coming home while it was unfolding.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Shemoshko writes that eight women were tortured and killed over like four and a half long hours that night. At least one victim was sexually assaulted, although I would wager that she probably wasn't the only one.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
It would have if one woman didn't have the right combination of courage, quick thinking, and honestly, maybe sheer luck to survive. Her name was Corazon Amaral, and seeing her last chance at survival, she actually crawled under one of the beds while the killer was out of the room.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And from her hiding spot, she heard each of her roommates get marched out of the room, followed by what Shemashko describes as muffled cries and then silence. And somehow, he just didn't notice. Like, there were so many victims that this dude lost count. And so when Corazon crawled back out at around 6 o'clock in the morning, it was just carnage.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Shemoshko writes that she was so traumatized and so terrified that she climbed onto the ledge of a second-story window and just started screaming. I mean, for all she knew, the killer was still inside somewhere. So once she was safe, she gave police a pretty damn detailed description of the perp, right down to his born to raise hell tattoo.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And that ends up being the key because just two days later, a Chicago physician feels his blood go cold when he sees the same four words on a patient's forearm. This patient was 24-year-old Richard Speck. Having grown up in Texas, Speck is new to the Chicago area where he's been staying with his sister and her husband.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
But Patricia still lives at home, and she wouldn't leave for days without giving her parents a heads up. And Patricia had even told her mom Saturday, that morning when she left, that she would be home that night for dinner. And the other girls were supposed to be home too, but none of them returned to their Chicago homes just over the state line.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And like so many killers before him, he's like, no, officers, I swear to you, you have the wrong guy. Absolutely not. Which like they absolutely do not because his prints are all over the crime scene. Shemosco reports that the assistant DA who eventually prosecutes him for eight counts of capital murder gives him the dubious distinction of being the country's first random mass murderer.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Random being the operative word, since organized crime was definitely a thing in Chicago before this guy, but you get what I'm saying.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
So this random massacre happens to a group of women from the same area just two weeks after the Indiana Dunes women go missing. And everyone's like, hey, maybe you should look at this because you got truly at this point nothing else other than they walked away and nobody's buying that.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
ISP Superintendent Robert O'Neill is like, yeah, listen, we're checking on it, but like, don't get your hopes up. And Sergeant Burke is even blunter, saying like, there is no suggestion Speck was near, let alone at Lake Michigan the day that the women went missing. And even if he was, let's just say that in addition to not being a criminal mastermind, Speck isn't tall, dark or handsome.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And he doesn't have resources to get his hands on a boat or even to charm or lure three victims aboard a boat. I will admit that it's a little intriguing that he worked as what the Chicago History Museum calls a quote unquote apprentice seaman. But I won't waste any of your time on him. Like at the end of the day, it is decided by all that this is just an intriguing coincidence and nothing more.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
So the next theory that comes up, it might even be more of a stretch, I guess is what I should say. And it all starts with this guy named Dick Wiley, who, according to the New York Daily News, was supposedly the first reporter on the scene the morning that the women were reported missing. Now, he only covered the case briefly. It's not like he was deeply involved.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And within a few years of the disappearances, he quit journalism altogether and jumped into a career in law enforcement down in Florida. But he couldn't get the disappearances out of his mind. Like they became his own personal Roman empire, if you will. So Dick Wiley believes, are you ready for this? I'll answer it for you. No, you're not. He believes that the women died aboard an abortion boat.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Wiley is absolutely certain that the disappearances can be traced back to an abortion boat.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
It's exactly what it sounds like. He says it's a boat on Lake Michigan where illicit abortions are performed.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
If you ask Dick Wiley, yes. And the theory he has behind this abortion boat is wild. Now, we know that Anne may have been pregnant and that Patricia may have been seeing a married guy, right? Well, Wiley posits, what if Anne and Patricia were both pregnant by married men?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Svedek tells Harold, okay, listen, I'll look into it. But this uneasy feeling starts to creep in his belly because he might already know something about the missing girls, and it could be bad.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
It seems that way. Like he doesn't give any explanation other than like a what if.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
I'm not sure how or why, but basically he just says that in the course of his personal investigation, he learns that that's the situation. Now, he says that puts them both in a pickle because it was 1960 whatever. And years before Roe v. Wade gave us, you know, brief bodily autonomy before controlling women became everyone's top priority again.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And we've already talked about what a moral stain out of wedlock pregnancies were back then. And in all seriousness, back alley abortions absolutely were a thing in 1966. Botched back alley abortions were too. So basically Wiley believes that there was this married couple operating an illicit abortion clinic in Gary, Indiana.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
For those of you who don't know, that's like on the coast of Lake Michigan near Chicago and Indiana Dunes. So like right in that area.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
I actually had the same question. Google couldn't tell me, so I reached out to the Indiana State Police. They were super-duper helpful, and they confirmed that the couple he's talking about was a real couple. Their names are known by police. But as far as the whole illicit abortion operation part of it goes, police don't know.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
They say that they have never been able to substantiate that part of Wiley's story. But the story goes that one of the women's procedures went south, either Anne or Patricia. They died. And with this being an illegal enterprise, the other two had to just be disposed of.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
You see, two days before, on Saturday, a park ranger had brought a bunch of random items into his office saying that there were things that had been left on the beach of Lake Michigan by three women who went into the water and boarded a boat around noon that day, but then never returned. How did they know that? Because there were witnesses.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Well, OK, so supposedly that young, dark, handsome captain was actually this couple's relative. And the thought is that he escorted them to a larger boat. And remember if you like a couple of witnesses saw them on a larger boat. And the thinking is maybe like that's where the procedures happened or were supposed to have happened.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
This is the thing. We don't know. And we tried to get to the bottom of it, believe me, because all you got to do is spend a few minutes on Google to realize, like, how wide this theory has spread. Not so much in traditional reporting, more like in blogs and on web forums and all of that stuff.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And so, of course, we thought like, OK, what better way to evaluate these claims than to go straight to the source? I mean, Dick Wiley is still alive and kicking. So we did our damnedest to talk to him about this case. Our reporter, Courtney, was like straight up giddy at the prospect of interviewing him. And she reached out to him on Facebook. She called every number she could find. No dice.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Like there was one person she even got on the phone. We got like a very like gruff wrong number before they hang up. So all we know is that he claims to have interviewed more people more times and with more tenacity than the actual investigators, he says. And based on those interviews, this is what he has uncovered.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
But the more we dug in, the more it seems like all roads on the abortion theory just lead back to Wiley himself. Like, this man talks a big game. There is no doubt about that. But I don't know if he actually has... the work to show, like, show your math, right? Like, how did you get the answer? And I don't think he's been able to do that.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And he supposedly had plans to publish a book on this case, like, since the early aughts. There's even an Amazon listing for it still. It's called Life and Death Through the Lens, which, and it had, like, a publication date way back in 2004, I think, except the book is not available, not on Amazon, not anywhere else in the World Wide Web that we could find. Right.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And there's a 2012 New York Daily News interview with Wiley that references a, quote, I think it was like 120,000-word manuscript. But here we are, like, 13 years later, and that manuscript has yet to see the light of day. So if you're going to believe this theory, you just have to, like, take him at his word. And, like... I don't know.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
I think it bears emphasizing that Wiley seems to be blessed with a very active imagination. His Facebook persona, for example, is like very much a conspiracy-obsessed angry grandpa who posts like in all caps. And you know your girl loves like a good conspiracy theory. Like that's my jam. It's who I intend on being a little bit when I'm older.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
But I also don't want to sugarcoat the fact that his posts get really ugly at times, to put it mildly. And the man... specifically seems to have a mild fixation on reproductive rights in general, which I think is relevant considering his theory. And I have to give you just a little bit of context. So I printed out one of his posts. This is one of his public posts that he made on May 9th, 2021.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
There were some teenagers nearby that had seen them get onto the boat. They saw them leave their stuff. And then they alerted the ranger when they were, like, those teenagers were getting ready to go and the stuff was still there. Because it seemed like this is the kind of stuff that you, like, wouldn't, you would leave only if you were planning to come back, right?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And listen, not to make this episode about Wiley or getting, like, to extreme ends of, like, either side or getting people fired up. But, like, I don't know. I'm having a hard time holding my tongue these days, you guys. I got to say, like, this inflammatory shit. Like, I think we're all over it, right?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Like, everyone's working to divide us as a people because the truth is we're stronger together. And if we're distracted by issues like what things are called, like we can't come together on issues that matter. Like, who gives a flying ffff? what the day is called. It's not hurting anybody. It doesn't take away from me. I'm a mom. Live your own life. Worry about your own damn self.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
If it makes someone feel included, great. Why would I care? I care about things that actually affect my life, my daughter's life, like the fact that insurance companies are f***ing us over right and left and basic health care isn't considered a human right. I also don't care if it's called the Gulf of Mexico or the Gulf of America or the Gulf of f***. Whatever.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And while we're on the topic of meaningless rhetoric intended to pit people against each other, there is even a proposed resolution in the House right now that expresses support for pro-women's health centers. Like I posted about this. I don't know if you saw it. I did. And I shit you not, it says that like these health care centers are supposed to address the needs of men. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Like, there's, like, the thermos, some sunglasses, lotion, those kind of things. Even more significant items, too, like cash, a purse, clothes, a pair of shoes. Like, they should have been back.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Like women's health care should address the needs of men, who, by the way, is Wiley, is like that's who we're worried about. Right. Anyways, so I know I got a little sidetracked, but I wanted to show you who Wiley is while also saying like, Give us some perspective. And I wanted to show you who he was, but also saying, like, let's not let the thing that Wiley said take over this episode.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Like, I swear to God, if all the comments on this episode become about Mother's Day, I'm going to quit. To bring it back to Dick Wiley, that's who he is. He hasn't shown any proof of his findings that could be verified by other journalists or police. While his theory might be one of the loudest ones on the Internet, it is not the only one.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Because what if I told you that there is another theory out there, one that is every bit as wild, every bit as fantastical, every bit as conspiratorial. And it is the one that seems the most likely to be true. Now, to explain this theory, I need to tell you a little bit more about Anne, Patricia and Renee and their shared love of horses. I know, you're a horse girl. I'm in.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
In fact, the Chicago Tribune reports that while Patricia and Renee had been high school classmates, Patricia met Anne at the Oak Brook Polo Club, where they both boarded their riding horses, and Anne also worked there.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
In fact, at the time of the disappearances, Patricia owned a racehorse named Hank, and he was one of the biggest reasons that her dad, Harold, never bought into the idea that the women would have gone off on their own. Even if all of the other weird shit could be explained away, which it can't, so like, there's so much that doesn't make sense, Harold knew that his daughter would not abandon Hank.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Now, at the time, the ranger wasn't especially concerned when he collected these things, though the Chicago Tribune reports that he did get a description of the boat, at least, which they said was a small boat with white exterior and a blue interior, maybe turquoise-ish blue, and it had an outboard motor.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
It wasn't possible. It was something that he said over and over and over again, including to Sergeant Burke. She would never have left that horse behind. You guys know how much I love Charlie. Charlie's like my mini horse. That's how I feel.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
You horse girls are next level, too. So anyway, so remember how I told you to put a pin in the women's personal problems? Yes. Okay. So Renee's were the marital issues that we know and was this potential pregnancy. And I think Patricia's had to do with the wide world of horse racing.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
So when her sister Janice sat with Dateline for an interview in 2023, she talked about some weird stuff going on with Patricia at the time leading up to her disappearance. Like how she was acting strangely the day before she disappeared. Scared, even. Although Janice didn't elaborate. She also described this conversation they had had recently, or like before they went missing.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And Patricia was crying, which alone is super out of character. Now, some people are criers, some people aren't, and Patricia was not. And she told Janice that she was in a lot of trouble. Janice's mind immediately went to the married boyfriend we know that she might have had. So she asked if she was pregnant. Don't tell Dick Wiley. I know. I'm sure he already knows this.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
But according to Janice, she wasn't pregnant. That's not it. Whatever it was, was worse in her mind than that because her response was, quote, I wish it was that easy.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And it's not going to keep me from telling you an incredible story. And that story is a mystery right out of our home state of Indiana. But listen, Brett, the circumstances of this are so foreign that I've heard this story, but it always felt so far away to me. We're talking horse mobsters, illegal medical boats operating out in open waters. There has been no case like this before or since.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
I know. And Janice wasn't the only person close to Patricia who noticed something was off before she disappeared. A friend of hers had told Sergeant Burke's team way back at the beginning of the investigation about this weird situation in March of that year when Patricia had some sort of bruising on her face. And the friend was like... Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
They even gave the ranger a description of the driver, which they say was a tan, dark-haired young man. But listen, people leave stuff on the beach all the time, especially on crowded days like the Saturday before the 4th of July. So at the time, he just gathered the things up and dropped them in Svedek's office.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
But no one was like out manning a massive search or trying to find the owners of these items at the time. Now, everyone kind of thought that whoever it was that owned these things would eventually come looking for this stuff at some point. But now, with this phone call, a darker thought washes over Svedek. Lake Michigan is notorious for its strong, unpredictable currents.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Like, it is not outside the realm of possibility that the women, maybe even their captain too, had gone for a swim or gotten into an accident and found themselves outmatched by Mother Nature. Like... We live here. So many people underestimate Lake Michigan.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Yeah. So once he hangs up with Harold, Svedek starts rifling through the items. He's looking for clues. And I mean, to be fair, he doesn't even know that the women who left these things were Patricia Ann and Renee. It just like to him feels too much like of a coincidence not to be. Mm-hmm. But that's the first order of business, right?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Now, when he finds a keychain with car keys and a miniature Illinois license plate and realizes that the plate has what looks like a pretty legitimate plate number, he gets this idea. He calls a few employees, sends them out to check the parking lot near the Dunes, and sure enough, there is a car with that exact plate in the lot.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And sure enough, when they run down the plate number with Chicago PD, Svedek gets the confirmation he needs. The car in the parking lot is registered to Ann Miller from the Chicago suburb of Westchester. Which makes this official. He has got a triple disappearance on his hands, and something of that magnitude is above his pay grade.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
So that's when seasoned Indiana State Police investigator, Detective First Sergeant Edward Burke, steps in to help the investigation. And he doesn't waste any time. One of his first moves is to go through the purse that had been left on the beach, and it turns out that purse belonged to Renee. And he knows it's hers because inside he finds this rather intriguing letter.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Now, Ann and Patricia lived at home with their parents, but 19-year-old Renee is actually married and lives with her husband at the time. And this letter that they find was addressed to him.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
No. So they live together. I mean, I assume they see each other like on the daily, but it seems like maybe they were a couple that liked to get thoughts down on paper when they were like big things, which I think is what this was.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Because basically in this letter, there are some issues that she brings up, like her husband spending way too much time with his buddies, tinkering with hot rods, which like... Sounds light and almost cute, but it wasn't either of those things to Renee. She even threatens to split up over this.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
But it looks like, I mean, maybe she had second thoughts about giving this to him because according to the date scribbled on this letter, it's like two weeks old by that point, like when he's seeing it. So Sergeant Burke isn't quite sure what to make of it, but he also doesn't have time to really ponder this. Feeling like Svedek might be right about the woman's fate, he calls the U.S.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Coast Guard to search the lake near the park way at the southern end. And boy, does the Coast Guard have their work cut out for them because Lake Michigan is enormous. I said, you guys, everyone underestimates it. Lake is like not even the right word. Over 22,000 square miles enormous is how big we're talking about.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And even if you've seen the lakes on like a map in school or geography or whatever, like it doesn't give you a sense for it.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
An ocean. I mean, you can get out there at some point and literally not see land on any side of you. It is So it's not all that surprising when they end the day empty-handed. So first thing next morning, Sergeant Burke gets a huge ground search going to complement the Coast Guard's efforts. He wants every last square inch of the park covered and also a good stretch of shoreline beyond the park.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And that's why it's one of Indiana's most infamous cases. The workday has barely started on Monday, July 4th, 1966, when Indiana Dunes State Park, which today is surrounded by Indiana Dunes National Park, like it's like a whole thing anyways, Superintendent William Svedek is getting a panicked call on his office phone.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
It's a hell of a task, and for it, he assembles a hell of a search party. A bunch of troopers and park rangers, obviously, and even soldiers from a nearby base. Deputies from Porter County Sheriff's Office, citizen volunteers who will eventually be joined by their bloodhounds. And with the Coast Guard still at it, they're searching literally plane, train, and automobile here.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And maybe not literally, but almost. You get what I'm saying. And by the end of the day, the searches have covered 40% of the park almost. And still, there is just nothing. Now, the Chicago Tribune reports that while the search is put on hold overnight, Sergeant Burke orders a patrol to man the shore until sunrise.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
The thinking being that, like, if the women maybe drowned, their bodies could wash up soon. And while drowning from a boating accident is only one theory, it's not at all out of the question that they also could have met with foul play. So they got to find this boat, like if they're going to know either way, right?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And while there are some sightings of white boats with blue interiors, they don't find a boat that could have been in the area, like the boat when the girls went missing.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
They're not sure of anything. I mean, you're right. All they have to back up even this boat story, like from the beginning, is just the word from those teenagers who alerted the ranger. But I will say over the first couple of days as this goes on, like when the story starts making news, people start coming forward. They start getting some more witness tips.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And that does seem to support the boat story. More people who say they saw the women climb onto a white boat with a dark haired, well-tanned man that day. And actually, there are even a few reports of them being seen on a larger boat, like this time with three men. And that was at some point as well, like that same afternoon. But for some reason, I think that like those are mostly discounted.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
So a few days into the search, the idea of some sort of fatality causing boat accidents starts to gain traction. But according to more reporting in the Chicago Tribune, random boat debris starts washing up on shore not far from the park. Pieces of seats, styrofoam, scraps of metal, plywood, turquoise plywood.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And they can tell that this wreckage came from what the reporting refers to as a quote-unquote outboard motorboat. And like I said, this stuff isn't washing up hours away. It's washing up like three miles away near some sort of power plant. Now, at this time, there haven't been any reports of a missing boat, no reports of a crash or of missing or injured boaters, which some find kind of strange.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Right. Or destroying the boat was intentional because they find something weird among the wreckage. The debris is strewn with cans of oil and gasoline. Some of the plywood is even doused in it. So it feels like something fishy is afoot.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And yet, pretty quickly, authorities announced that the wreckage couldn't have anything to do with the missing women because there were no reports of a boating accident.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And it only gets worse from there because the Terre Haute Star reports that soon authorities announced that the wreckage is from a rowboat, a metal rowboat.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Yes. Right. Like it feels like there's some tunnel vision going on here because the Terre Haute Tribune reports that when investigators are asked about three different possibilities, right, so like drowning, foul play or a planned disappearance, their response is telling. They say that there is no evidence of drowning or foul play.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Well, at first they play it coy, but by the one week mark, Sergeant Burke is like, yeah, we're pretty sure this was all orchestrated. The boat stuff too? Like they blew it up or that's unrelated still? Still unrelated. They're not even trying to make sense of the wreckage. And I get why they start doubting the drowning theory, like, maybe a little premature.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
But, I mean, they've devoted so much manpower to searching the southern end of Lake Michigan and from, like, every angle, too. They've got those ground searches, boat searches, whatever. Like, divers are even in there. And with everything, they're thinking, like, if the women did drown, like, someone should have found something by now that indicated that.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
I know. I feel like we've done this dance before. Anyways, the whole idea of it not being foul play because there's no evidence of foul play, to me that's bananas, especially when the one thing that might have been the evidence of foul play has been discounted, right?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
It's just... It's way less likely. Yeah. Yeah. I think mostly they think this because there start to be some supposed sightings, I guess, like near and far. One like on a bus or like in a bar or a club or whatever. And these are like miles and miles away with strange men. Sometimes they're even saying like hitchhiking, according to the Chicago Tribune.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And all of these, like they never turn out to be legit, but investigators run each one down and they keep coming in. So I'm sure that's playing a role here. But I also suspect that it has a lot to do with the letter that they found in Renee's purse, the one to her husband. The one about the hot rods? Yeah.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
So they decided basically that she may have wanted to just skip town on account of her marital discord.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
I know. And they obviously questioned the husband, by the way. Like, he's in the clear. So her loved ones are like, okay, we hear you, but also are you serious right now? Like, she's 19 years old and her feelings were hurt over, like, something you can probably work through. Right. And that was weeks ago. Mm-hmm.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Yeah, not maybe in solidarity. The Chicago Tribune reports that according to Sergeant Burke, all three, Anne and Patricia included, have, quote unquote, personal problems. But he wouldn't say what those are. Which isn't to say, like, we don't know what he's getting at.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
Because long story short, what we know is that Patricia's sister Janice tells Dateline in a recent interview, so, like, we find this out way later, that Patricia had been canoodling with a married man. And Anne had supposedly told friends that she was three months pregnant and might enter a quote-unquote home for unwed mothers, which is very much a thing in 1966. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
But it is such an antiquated concept in like the year of our Lord 2025, well, at least for now, that I asked you to do some digging and give the crime junkies a quick explainer for the young folk listening. Can't know where you're going unless you know where you've been, right? So being a pregnant unwed woman in the 60s, give it to us.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
The caller IDs himself as Harold Blau, and he's like, look, my daughter and her friends were at your park on Saturday. It's Monday now, and they haven't come home. My wife and I are super worried. Now, all of these are, you know, these are three young women. Harold's daughter, Patricia, she's 19. Her friends, Ann Miller and Renee Bruhl, are around the same age, like 21 and 19, respectively.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Indiana Dunes Disappearances
And where were the men who got these women and girls pregnant?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And today's story, the one I have for you, is a powerful, tragic reminder that the most dangerous time in an abusive relationship often comes when a victim is trying to break free. And that sometimes the person closest to you can become your worst enemy. This is the story of Lisbeth Almon-Papoka.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
But he does remember something strange. He says that Lisbeth's white Lexus was parked in the driveway for a while on the morning of July 1st. In fact, his wife had to ask Jonathan to move the car just after 11 a.m. because it was blocking her in. And this was so odd because Jonathan and Elizabeth always parked on the street. They never parked in the driveway.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Well, and I thought he said her car was gone when he got home. Bingo. He did say her car was gone when he got home, which is just more confirmation that they're on the right track. But they need proof, solid proof, like video footage. Now, the landlord doesn't have any.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And as they visit neighbors, they are told again and again that cameras they have don't work or they won't let strangers just look through their video. So just as they're ready to give up, Yaneth tries one last house down the street from Elizabeth's apartment. And this resident agrees to let her check her camera that was working. And that is when they see it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Lisbeth's so-called missing Lexus going up and down the street twice on July 1st. Once at 5.51 p.m. and once again at 8.22 p.m. And none other than Jonathan is behind the wheel. So the moment Yeneth sees that video, I mean, her blood runs cold. And in that moment, just then, guess who drives by? Jonathan is pulling up onto the street, which is like perfect timing.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And they're not going to play coy. Like they have proof now that he is lying to them. So they walk right over and confront him. And at first, it's like more of the same. Like, oh, she must have run off with some guy. He has no idea where she is. And then he switches it up and he's like, okay, listen. I know she's okay, but I can't tell you what she's doing. She has to be the one to share that.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
It's not mine to share. And then he changes it again. And he's like, OK, fine, fine, fine. I'll tell you the truth. Now he claims that Lisbeth went to Mexico. Now, since she's undocumented, he says that her plan was to marry someone to, quote unquote, fix her papers. But thanks to the missing persons report that they filed, now she's stuck at the border.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And the only way he says that they can help her is by retracting that missing persons report and telling police that she's not actually missing.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
But when he got there at around 10, there was still no sign of Lisbeth. And her car, a 2007 white Lexus, was gone too. When's the last time anyone saw her? Well, Yanneth talked to her sister the night before via Instagram. And Jonathan says that he was with her in bed and then he left for work. So that was at like 3.15 in the morning. He works that like kind of overnight shift.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
I truly have no—like, I don't know what he's saying. I don't know if he's saying she's in America. I don't know if he's saying that she's in Mexico. I don't know. But he's been lying to everyone about this because— Because he says that he didn't know how to break the news to Albino that his daughter ran off to Mexico. Like, he was just so worried about Albino's feelings.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
So according to him, she did take her car at first, but then she came back because she'd forgotten something and then she needed to go meet this guy. So he says that he drove her somewhere. And where is her car now? Dude, I don't know. Like, Yanneth wants to, like, explode. Like, it doesn't make sense. And she wants to demand that he, like, sit down and actually tell them everything.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
But by now, she's seeing a pattern. Like, if she can stay calm, if she can just let Jonathan talk... Every time he does reveal something new, even if each detail contradicts the last and even if it all feels like lies, like it does feel like we're getting somewhere. So she plays along like, OK, look, you're the only one who can help us find the car. Just tell us where it is.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And he starts naming a dozen different spots. It's in a garage. It's by a beach. It's under a tree. Until finally he levels with them. It is actually parked on the street near his relative's house in nearby New Haven.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
As East Haven Captain Joseph Mergo told us, when investigators pull up to this house on Monday, July 6th, they are stunned because right there, a mile from Jonathan and Lisbeth's apartment, is Lisbeth's supposedly missing Lexus. Now, they have a lot of questions for Jonathan's relative, the person whose house this is by.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
But this person says Jonathan never mentioned that he was leaving the car there. He just dropped it off a few days ago. And when this guy, his name's Carlos, when he asked Jonathan why, Jonathan claimed that he couldn't fit the Lexus at home because he was already working on a few cars and he didn't have room in the yard for it. But like. Hi. That's a lie. It's a lie.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Police know that's a lie because when they'd been by to speak with him before, there were no other cars in the yard. Now, Carlos may be cooperating, but it's not like he's totally on their team. Because again, like this is his cousin. And guess who Carlos called at some point? While the officers are still on the scene, Jonathan rolls up. Totally.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Totally unannounced to just like help fill in some of the gaps, you know, make sure they have like the right narrative. And Jonathan admits he is the one who drove the Lexus there on Thursday, July 2nd, and that he lied about it being missing. And he claims that he was embarrassed that Lisbeth had left him to go to Mexico to start this new life. So, yeah, he knows that he's lied about the car.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
He knows that it looks bad, but he's like, it doesn't really change anything. Not really, because the bottom line, he says, is that she left first. on her own, and she's totally fine. So police tow the Lexus to headquarters and the next day they do an emergency ping on that 727 number, the one that was texting them saying Lisbeth, which, by the way, like so weird, no one's called them back.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And oh, also super weird. It's not a number that is registered to a specific person like a landline or cell phone would be like something where you would go through a provider. No, this is registered to a pinger, which is one of those apps that lets you basically get a free phone number. Hmm.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
So it hasn't been that long that they've gone without talking to her. But Yanneth knows her sister's world revolves around Astrid. Mm-hmm. There isn't a world where she would just leave her alone, especially since Yaneth is always available to babysit. Again, that's what she was kind of expecting the call to be. Right. So Jonathan also says that Astrid isn't the only thing that she left behind.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
But like any level of pseudo stealthness ends here because the account is registered to Jonathan with the email address Jonathan Jarrah 2020. His full name is Jonathan Jarrah Akupina, by the way. So like real brilliant here. So they decide it's time to look harder at the last place Lisbeth was known to be, which is the apartment. And Jonathan agrees to let them take a look around.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
He even hands over his and Lisbeth's phones along with her laptop. He also goes to the station for another interview. And this time around, he refers to Lisbeth as his ex-wife. Oh, yeah. And he says that he knew she wasn't happy. He knew she wanted to leave him. She'd been struggling with depression, he says, and they've been having problems.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And he admits that he had been unfaithful, but says that she was also seeing other men. And in fact, they had discussed the possibility of having an open relationship at some point. And she mentioned, he says, wanting to visit various guys in Mexico. And he says that their daughter even told him that Lisbeth wanted to marry someone else.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
But he swears he never laid a hand on Lisbeth, despite what her family might think. And actually, he claims she was the one who got physical during that fight a few months back, that she hit him, and that's how she hurt her arm and hand.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
I mean, he's like he's shocked. He's totally stunned. He had no idea like how it's even possible. Maybe someone set it up under his name using an old email address that was his, which like I don't know if they were able to subpoena the records before talking to him. But like old email my ass. It's the year 2020.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Like you're telling me Jonathan Jarrah 2020 was not from 2020. Like, OK, my guy. But it gets even better or like, I mean, honestly, it gets even worse because over the next few days, he keeps denying any connection to that number. Even after police discover that it was last used from an IP address that matches his home Wi-Fi.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
She's like texting everyone from the bathroom that she's hiding in. Again, he's like, I has no explanation. He just insists it is not him. The only way to break this guy is basically to catch him dead to rights in the lie. So they walk away from that interview to go gather information. They do another search of his house.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
They get more cell phone records, including from Pinger, showing that the account with the 727 number was created at 10.38 a.m. on Friday, July 3rd, which is right after, yes, Albina told Jonathan to meet them so they could go report her missing. I was going to say, the text came through at 1040? I know, and exactly two minutes before Yaneth got that first text from Lisbeth.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
So Captain Mergo and another investigator sit down with Jonathan that Saturday evening, and they are gravely aware that no one has seen or heard from Lisbeth, the real Lisbeth, by this point, for 10 days. And East Haven PD actually gave us a clip of that interview.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Her phone is still there. So he's like, I can't even try and call her. But even though her phone is there, along with her car, some other things are gone, like her purse, her passport, some clothes, and apparently $10,000 from their safe. Oh, that kind of sounds like she left on purpose. Yeah. Or at least there's like some clear signs of that.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Now, Jonathan doesn't have an answer to that. And as he goes through everything he remembers about July 1st, his story changes again. He still claims that her white Lexus was gone when he got home at around 10 a.m.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
He says that he went inside, looked for Lisbeth, couldn't find her, noticed her passport and purse were missing, and then his daughter pointed out that mommy's phone was still there, so he thought that she might have just gone to the store. But now he's saying he went back outside at this point and lo and behold, Lisbeth's car is just like there.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Police actually have another ace in the hole. They had pulled surveillance footage from the elementary school right next to Jonathan and Lisbeth's apartment, which gives them a clearer view of their road. And the footage from July 1st shows that when Jonathan got home that morning, he parked on the street right behind Lisbeth's white Lexus. And it was there the entire time.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
The only person moving it around was him. And he was doing some more sketchy stuff. So he moved it into the driveway for about an hour and then took it over to the school parking lot later that afternoon. And there... In full view of the camera, he pulled out a can of air freshener and is like spraying it all around the trunk. But even with this video evidence, he still won't come clean.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
After that, Jonathan decides that he wants a lawyer. Interview's over. But investigators know that they're on the right track now. Everyone they talk to says Elizabeth would never leave her daughter. And they confirm that she, of course, didn't go to Mexico. There has been no activity on her passport.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
So over the next few days, they start piecing together Jonathan's movements through witness interviews, phone records, cell tower data, and surveillance footage from a dozen locations. And they find out that on the night of Tuesday, June 30th, Lisbeth and Jonathan were in an hours-long argument via text. Lisbeth was home while Jonathan was kind of coming and going from the apartment.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And what they learned is that at 9.09, he left to run an errand. He's back by 9.17. But instead of going inside, he like sat in the car while this like text fight continued. And in this, Lisbeth told him it was over, that if he ever saw her and their daughter on the street, like he should walk the other way. She was that done. Mm-hmm.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Yeah. So Yaneth wonders if her sister maybe just needed some space. And so she asked Jonathan like the obvious question. Did you guys have a fight? And he admits like, yeah, we did have this like little argument the night before, but it wasn't serious. We kissed. We made up before bed.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And she told him that the last 10 years had been like a nightmare for her and she just wanted to forget that he existed. And on his end, he, in these text messages, is mostly begging her not to leave, saying that he wouldn't walk away if he saw them, like Astrid was their baby. All that time, he was still just outside in the car.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And then at 12.50 in the morning, so this is now Wednesday, July 1st, he finally gets out and walks to the house. Now, police can't see him go inside. The school cameras are set in like the rear parking lot facing the street with like trees blocking the house itself. But cell tower data places him in that area for over two hours.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Until he is seen on video leaving their house for his UPS shift at 3.18 a.m.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
No, no. So because of the camera angle, they can't. But what they're assuming is that he must have gotten Lisbeth in there somehow.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Mostly because of that, like, air freshener. Yeah, in the trunk. Now, when investigators search the Lexus, cadaver dogs do alert on that exact spot in the trunk. So they are sure that Jonathan killed her, placed her in the trunk, disposed of her. But the problem is he's not talking anymore. And they're still missing the most crucial piece of evidence of all, Lisbeth's body.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
But as detectives lay out Jonathan's cell tower location points on this map, this clear route starts to emerge. They see that on July 1st, he spent most of the day at home before dropping Astrid off at Yeneth's at around 4 p.m., He takes his own car for that, a blue Chevrolet Cruze.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
But when he gets back home, he took Lisbeth's Lexus out for some errands, including a stop at a local Home Depot, where he bought a shovel and a hoe. So part of a murder kit. Got it. Or a disposal kit, at least. Yeah. So later that night, after 10, he drove the Lexus a few miles to the restaurant where he works.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And surveillance footage from surrounding businesses shows him pulling up to the dumpsters in the back corner of the parking lot. Now, the restaurant, this is interesting, was actually closed because the owner was on vacation. So it was like nice and quiet, not a whole lot of traffic. And of course, Jonathan would know that. He works there. He works there, exactly.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Anyways, now once he's in the parking lot, you can't see what he's doing. But he was there for nearly an hour and a half. And he's on camera visiting that exact same spot again a week later. So the problem is by the time police get a search warrant for that area, it's July 15th. We are two weeks to the day out from Lisbeth's disappearance.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
The thing is that Yanneth is pretty sure that's not the full story because Lisbeth and Jonathan have been together for over a decade since they were in high school. And though she was private, Lisbeth had confided in her sister about some issues that they had. And honestly, some issues is an understatement. Their relationship was straight up toxic.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Now, the parking lot is partially fenced in, but in the back of it where Jonathan was like skulking around, it butts up against this densely wooded area. So investigators like brace themselves for a full scale search, but they don't actually have to go very far. Right behind the dumpsters, something that catches their eye is this door laying flat on the ground.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
When they lift it, they see disturbed dirt beneath. And almost immediately, the cadaver dogs start picking up the scent of decomp. And as they carefully dig, the smell just intensifies. And soon, they uncover this bundle wrapped tightly in a blue fleece blanket held together with clear tape. And it has long black hair sticking out from one end. And they know that they have finally found Lisbeth.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Now, before police even reach Elizabeth's family to notify them of the discovery, Yaneth starts hearing rumors through the media that a body has been found. But she doesn't necessarily know the details, and she is still just like clinging to this hope that it isn't her sister.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And even after her father and stepmom show up later that day with detectives and a priest, like warning her to brace herself for what will likely be bad news, she's still holding on. But the next day, investigators show her photos of the victim's tattoos to help with identification. And that awful realization just like hits her. She is never going to see her sister again.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And the only thing her family can hope for now is some sort of justice. Now, when she is taken for autopsy, the medical examiner determines that Lisbeth died from homicidal asphyxia. And he also finds non-fatal blunt force injuries from what was likely a struggle. She's got a bruise on her upper arm and another on her lower back.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
So investigators did consider others like Jose, who really was her old high school friend that she was supposedly dating at some point. But with everything pointing to Jonathan, like, come on. Now, Yanneth expects him to be arrested at any moment. Like, again, come on. But days pass. And then weeks. And it doesn't happen. He is still a free man.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And despite that notarized letter, which, you know, you pointed out like doesn't do much, he still has rights as Astrid's father. So he's able to have supervised visits with her, visits that take place at Albino's house.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
I feel like it would almost be like you're living in an alternate reality.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Yes. And the only real solace for Yeneth is the overwhelming local support that she receives. Like she starts working with advocates to raise awareness about her sister's story and about domestic violence as a whole. Now, Jonathan doesn't have any record for abuse against Lisbeth. The fight that they had in May wasn't reported.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Like, she caught Jonathan cheating multiple times. They had broken up, reconciled more than once. Like... Over and over again, she stayed for their daughter, even though he wasn't exactly a doting father. And things had only gone from bad to worse recently.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
He does have a felony conviction for assaulting a police officer, which, like, details are sparse on. But according to a Hartford Current article, that thing happened when he was 18 after crashing into a cop on a motorcycle. We don't know of any other incidents. But this is the thing, just because there aren't things on record doesn't mean that they didn't happen.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Like domestic violence is one of law enforcement's biggest blind spots because many of these incidents never even reach police. And when they do, they rarely get the attention that they deserve.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
There was actually this study done by the National Library of Medicine that found that Black women and Latina women like Lisbeth are more likely to encounter neglectful or even hostile responses when they seek help. And for Hispanic victims, there are often extra hurdles like language barriers or fear of deportation if they're undocumented like Lisbeth.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And the longer her homicide investigation drags on without an arrest, the more speculation there is that her case isn't a priority because of her nationality. But Captain Mergo told us that there was a lot happening behind the scenes that investigators can't share publicly.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Like, at the time, they were working with multiple agencies, gathering warrants for more digital data, things like phone records, surveillance footage, and Google searches. Evidence even from the Lexus goes to the FBI lab for testing, including a single blue fiber found in the trunk that ultimately matches the blanket that Lisbeth was wrapped in.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And they did an analysis of the air freshener can, and they found that Jonathan could not be eliminated from being a source of the DNA on it. And they also learned that on the afternoon of July 1st, less than 12 hours after he says he last saw Lisbeth in bed, Jonathan was on Facebook Marketplace trying to trade her car for a pickup truck. Yeah.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And in August, they get a new chilling detail from Astrid herself. She tells her family and later an FBI agent that when she woke up that morning and her mom wasn't in bed, she was searching, like, in the apartment. But for some reason, she couldn't get into her own room because the door was locked. And according to her, like, that wasn't a thing. That had never been locked before.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
So back in May, this is just a couple of months before, Yeneth had planned this cookout and her sister was supposed to come with Astrid, but they didn't end up going. And Lisbeth said that she didn't feel well, but the next time Yeneth saw her, her arm was in a sling and her shoulder was really swollen. And three fingers on her left hand were bruised, like almost purple.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And then when her dad got home, he didn't even go look for her mom. Instead, he just started cleaning. Like, that was the first thing he did.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
So the theory, according to Captain Mergo, is that after Jonathan killed Lisbeth, he likely stashed her body in their daughter's bedroom, locked the door so Astrid wouldn't go in when she woke up, and then later he backed the Lexus into the driveway to load Lisbeth's body into the trunk.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And in fact, they find out that while it was parked there, Jonathan did nearly three dozen web searches on how to fold down the backseat.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And listen, it isn't the police. Like, they agree with you. But I guess the state's attorney's office didn't because as detectives share their findings with them, they keep hearing like, you're close, but like, go back, get more, chase down more leads, verify additional details and more. In the time that they kept getting sent back, they worried that Jonathan was going to skip town.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
So they actually put him under surveillance. Because, you see, even though he lived in the U.S. since childhood and can legally work here, he was still an Ecuadorian citizen. And at the time, Ecuador had a strict ban on extraditing its citizens to the U.S. So if he made it back there, he would almost be untouchable. But when they...
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
end up putting eyes on him, they were surprised to find that he wasn't running, like, far from it. He was just going about his life as if nothing had happened. So he thinks he's in the clear. That's what he believed, yeah. The good news is, he is wrong. On Sunday, December 27th, police have Albino set up a meeting with Jonathan at a diner in New Haven.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And Jonathan thinks that he is going to see his daughter at this meeting. But instead, this is when he is finally arrested for the murder of Lisbeth. And for investigators, putting the cuffs on Jonathan feels like a win. And for Lisbeth's family, it is a huge relief. Like no more sharing Astrid with the man who took her mother from Astrid and all of them.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
But that relief is short-lived because now they face an entirely new battle, which is the legal system. So Jonathan pleads not guilty and he is sent to jail on a $2 million bond to await trial. But according to community organizer Vanessa Suarez, who has been supporting Lisbeth's family, prosecutors aren't exactly confident taking this to a jury still.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Like, they even consider at some point reducing the charge to voluntary manslaughter because they're worried that they might not be able to make that murder charge stick. Wow. Why? What more do they need? I don't know. An eyewitness, I think. I think they want a confession, something that isn't circumstantial, I guess.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Like what's actually happening? I'm with you. Like, believe me. But from the prosecutor's perspective, like taking it to trial, it's always a risk.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
But this seems like not as much of a risk. So they end up going back and forth with the defense. They're like debating possible deals. Right. But through this whole time, like, Lisbeth's family is firm. They're like, anything less than a murder charge would diminish what happened to Lisbeth. And they're not willing to accept that.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And Lisbeth said that she and Jonathan had gotten into a fight. But Yaneth told our reporter Nina that sometime after that, she noticed this shift in Lisbeth. Like Lisbeth seemed done this time, like done for real. She was looking for a job. She was reconnecting with her love of art by designing stickers and decals, hoping to turn that creative outlet into a business and gain some independence.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
So the long and the short of it is that with delays from COVID and all the negotiations, it is not until February of 2024 that both sides reach an agreement. Facing 60 years in prison, Jonathan pleads guilty to murder. And in exchange, he is sentenced to 25 years with immediate deportation once his time is served. Now, for Elizabeth's family, 25 years is grossly inadequate as a punishment.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
They, along with advocates like Vanessa, have been very vocal about the larger issue that her murder brings to light. Vanessa told us, like, too often when women go missing or are found dead, they don't get the urgency or attention that they deserve.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And while there is this huge pressure on victims to report abuse, society needs to step up and create better systems of support for cases of gendered violence. We know how widespread this issue is. According to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, an estimated 47,000 women and girls worldwide were killed by an intimate partner or family member in 2020 alone.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And that is an average, when you think about it, of one every 11 minutes. So like to put it in perspective, by the time our crime junkies finish this episode, approximately four women and girls will have lost their lives.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
I know. I know. But there are lessons to be learned from every tragedy. And that's actually why Captain Mergo reached out to us, hoping that we would share Lisbeth's story. He believes that it shows how real the dangers of intimate partner violence can be and the lengths that abusers will go to manipulate and to control even after death.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
From the beginning, exactly. I mean, it took an all-hands approach. I mean, Elizabeth's family pushing for answers, diligent police work and technology like digital forensic evidence and surveillance footage, all of it to finally reveal the truth like piece by piece. But not every victim has loved ones that are determined to fight for justice or have the ability to.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Like, not every department is willing or able to go deeper. Too often, these stories end before they ever begin. And no one should have to face abuse alone. Help is available, and we've included resources in our show notes if you or someone you know needs support. And please make sure to take any signs of abuse seriously, no matter how small they might seem.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
I mean, it can be so hard to see the full picture, especially when you love someone and you want to believe that things will get better. But if you are in an abusive relationship, the focus should be on your safety and your well-being rather than waiting for or like betting on the abuser to change. Because sometimes the risk is greater than anyone could have ever imagined.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
You can visit our website for all of the source material for this episode, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And just a couple of days before all of this, on June 29th, Lisbeth even put in a rental application for an apartment in Yeneth's complex, planning to move there as soon as possible without Jonathan. Now, as far as Yeneth could tell, Lisbeth was ready to end things for good this time. And had Jonathan realized that? Yeah, she'd made it clear to him. Okay.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
But whether he understood how serious she was, I don't know, right? Like they've done this like back and forth thing before. Right. So as Yanneth's talking to him, she has all of this like history running through her mind. But she's still not panicking. Not yet. The leaving her daughter behind does not make any sense, like, any way you cut it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
But other signs point to her getting away just for a minute. So Jonathan and Yanneth make arrangements for her to watch Astrid so he can go looking for Lisbeth. And, of course, the second they're alone, Yanneth starts doing what we would do. She's, like, asking Astrid questions. I mean, Astrid's seven. She's old enough to know kind of what's going on. So, like, did you hear your parents fighting?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And Astrid says that her mom took her to bed in her, Elizabeth's room the night before. And she was there when Astrid fell asleep. But then Astrid said when she wakes up, her mom is just gone. And her side of the bed was already made. But Astrid doesn't remember any arguments. She doesn't remember any strange noises, like nothing woke her up in the night.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And while she doesn't seem frightened, she is acting sort of odd. Like she's looking around Yanneth's apartment with almost this intense focus. And then she tells her aunt that she's going to be living here now. Wait, that Astrid is going to be living there with her aunt? Yeah. And she's like taken aback. Like she doesn't know what it means, but she doesn't even really dwell on it at first.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
So a few hours pass. And it's weird because there's just no word even from Jonathan. So Yanneth eventually calls him to check in. And he says he's talked to a couple of Lisbeth's friends. No one knows anything. And then he's like, well, I'm going to go do some laundry now.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Even if you are, it's strange because to Yanneth, he doesn't seem at all worried. So Astrid ends up staying the night with Yeneth, almost like the first sign of this self-fulfilling prophecy. And the next day is an even harder one because the next day actually is Lisbeth's birthday. Now, this is when Jonathan finally shows back up, but he's not there to pick up his daughter.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
He's dropping off groceries, like a lot of groceries, as if he is planning on Astrid staying with Yeneth for a while. So Yanneth sits him down and presses him for information. And that's when Jonathan starts painting a troubling picture of Lisbeth. He says that she just hasn't been herself lately, that she's been severely depressed.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
She's been drinking a lot, smoking weed, even seeing other men, specifically a guy named Jose that they knew from high school. And in fact, Jonathan says that he's trying to track down where Jose lives to see if maybe she's there with him. Because as far as he's concerned, you know, the reason he's like, I'm not worried is he thinks Elizabeth isn't in danger.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
She must have just run off with some guy. And Yanneth knows Elizabeth has been struggling, but everything else he's saying doesn't line up with the sister that she knows. Jonathan's making himself out to be almost like the victim here, saying that he doesn't know what he did to deserve this. And he's wondering about how he's going to care for her.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Yeah. And the more he talks, the more uneasy Yeneth feels. And that's when she realizes it's time to tell their dad, Albino, what's going on. Now, Lisbeth and Albino aren't super close. You see, Lisbeth and Yaneth grew up in Guerrero, Mexico. And when their parents moved to the U.S. in 2001, the girls actually stayed behind with their grandparents. But their parents split.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Their mom basically kind of bowed out of their lives. And they didn't join Albino in Connecticut until around 2010. That's when Lisbeth was 16. So there was like a lot of formative bonding years that were missed. And rebuilding that relationship had been tough. But at the end of the day, Lisbeth is still his daughter.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
It's Wednesday, July 1st, 2020, and Yanneth Allman's phone rings with a call that she's not expecting. On the other end is her sister's longtime boyfriend, Jonathan. Now, in all the years that she's known him, Jonathan has only ever called her for one thing, like to arrange child care for their daughter, Yanneth's seven-year-old niece. But this isn't one of those calls.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
So he comes over while Yeneth and Jonathan are still there, still talking this out. And when he hears what's going on and he hears Jonathan's version of events, Albino can't shake the same feeling Yeneth has. Like, none of this makes sense. But there's a new detail now that Jonathan adds. He insists that Lisbeth actually did take her phone with her.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
He says not her regular cell phone, but one of those like phones that only works on Wi-Fi. So Albino's like, OK, I need to see this for myself. That night, he makes Jonathan take him back to their apartment and he checks all over inside. But there's like nothing weird, no sign of a struggle, no damage, no strange smells, no clues at all even about where Lisbeth might have gone.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
So the next morning, this is now Friday, July 3rd, Albino drives by their place again just to see if anything has changed. There's still no sign of Lisbeth or her car. And that's when he decides it's time to bring in law enforcement. So he calls Jonathan, who agrees to meet them at Yeneth so they can all go to the East Haven Police Department together. But this is when things get really strange.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
So within minutes of that call to Jonathan, at 10.40 a.m., Yanneth's phone buzzes with messages that stop her in her tracks. Okay, so the incoming texts are from a number that Yeneth doesn't recognize with a Florida area code. Again, they're in Connecticut. So the area code is 727. And the person who's sending these texts are claiming to be Lisbeth. But they're written in Spanish.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Now, I wrote out what the rough translations are that I'm going to have you read. Okay.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
So she gets these and does the immediate thing that I would do. She hits the call button and tries to get this person on the phone who's claiming to be Lisbeth. She waits. She waits. The phone rings and it rings and it rings. That timing, it feels so coincidental. Way too coincidental. Yeah, no one is picking up on the other end. And when Jonathan arrives, he's like, oh, guess what I just got?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
I got these texts from Lisbeth, too. And he says that she basically told him she wasn't happy with him, that she wanted a fresh start, and that someday after she gets her life together, she's going to come back for Astrid. And while the text might have set off all the, like, sister Spidey senses, Jonathan is just like, well, now we know what happened. Like, nothing more we can do here.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Let's just keep, like, living our lives. Certainly no reason that we need to, like, get the cops involved. Like, right, folks? No, absolutely wrong. Yeah. So her dad and her sister are more convinced than ever that they need to go to the police. And they do get Jonathan back on board with that plan. He just wants to do one thing first.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Like, can I real quick sign over custody of Astrid to Albino and Yaneth? I guess he's worried that going to the police will trigger a report to the Department of Children and Families and he doesn't want them to take Astrid away. So to him, signing over custody seems like the safer option, which like I would say you have experience with stuff like this.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
I mean, right off the bat, Jonathan asked her if she knows where her sister Lisbeth is because he says she's fully just like MIA. And she's left their daughter Astrid at their East Haven, Connecticut apartment alone. And again, she's seven. In fact, it was Astrid who alerted him to Lisbeth's absence in the first place.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
The short answer is no. Something like that requires a court order. He says he wants to basically just get like a notarized letter or something, which again, like not how it works. But they do. They go. They do that. And it feels weird to everyone. But they have bigger concerns on their minds that afternoon.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
So they do this, then they go to the police, and then they sit down with an East Haven officer who asks Jonathan to walk him through everything. And he gives them the same story. And while there are no new details, there are a couple of interesting takeaways. Even though him and Lisbeth aren't married, he keeps referring to her as his wife.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
And he just completely leaves out everything about the text that he supposedly had gotten from her.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Right. Now, luckily, Yeneth's there, too. And she's like, oh, by the way, like, show him the messages that she supposedly sent you. I'll show you the messages she supposedly sent me. So he shows the officer the messages and the officer tries calling the number himself, just like Yeneth did.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
He doesn't get an answer, but he leaves a message asking Lisbeth to contact East Haven Police Department when she gets the message.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
I don't either. So while the officer waits for that callback, he ticks the basic like missing person boxes, like checks the hospitals, enters her information into their system, enters her car information into their system, into like their state database.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
But during the next couple of days, it doesn't sound like much else happens on law enforcement's end. Although I know that a cop does go by Jonathan's to speak with him at least once. Maybe they were thinking that Lisbeth would come back on her own. I don't know. But her family isn't going to just sit around and wait.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
They, along with Jonathan, start driving around, looking every place they can think of for her or her car. They check beaches, train stations, motels, everywhere and anywhere they can think of. And all the while, they can't help but notice that Jonathan still doesn't seem very worried. And that only ramps up Yanneth and Albino's suspicions. He was the last person to see her.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
If he doesn't know where she is, then who does? Every possible scenario is running through their heads, each one worse than the last at this point.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
I don't know. I don't know if you could call them close. I mean, they weren't all best friends. But, I mean, in the beginning, everyone liked him. He and, you know... hung out because of Lisbeth. Like he seemed respectful, responsible. He was working two jobs. I mean, he had the one at UPS. He had another one at a local Italian eatery.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
But Yaneth has seen, or at least she's had exposure to his manipulative side over the years. So I think their like perception of him changed a little bit. Like he would barely help with Astrid. But the minute Lisbeth tried to pull away, he would use her, Astrid, as like a ploy to reel her back in. And even during the, like, good times, Yaneth noticed Lisbeth never seemed truly happy with Jonathan.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
I guess when she woke up, she realized that mom wasn't there and she called him. That was at like 9.15 in the morning, just as he was kind of wrapping up his shift at UPS. And he said he really didn't think much of it at first. Like he thought maybe Lisbeth just stepped out for a minute. So he kind of was just, you know, assuaged her concerns, you know, finished his shift, headed home as usual.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
There was always, like, a missing spark. But even with everything she knew, including their recent physical fight, Yaneth said that she never imagined that her sister might be in real danger around him. But now that has all changed. So by Sunday, July 5th, Albino and Yeneth decide to conduct their own search. So while Jonathan is at work, they head to St. Andrew Avenue where he and Lisbeth live.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Lizzbeth Aleman-Popoca
Their duplex is at the end of this dead-end road right next to an elementary school. Now, Lisbeth and Jonathan are on the bottom floor and their landlord lives upstairs. So that's actually where they start. And the landlord tells them that he didn't hear anything unusual that night that she disappeared or in the early morning hours. No commotion, no loud noises.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And the story I have for you today is about the women and girls whose lives were cut short after encountering a monster whose full reign of terror might not even be fully known. He hunted in his own backyard, the wilderness of the Pacific Northwest, and there could be victims out there that have yet to be discovered.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Linda says that she thought she needed to wait the 24 hours to report her daughter missing. And it has to break her heart when the dispatcher corrects her and tells her that, like, in the cases of children, that's not true. They're here now. So the dispatcher starts asking questions. Who was the last to see her daughter? Linda tells them that it was her stepfather.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
And, of course, Britt, do you want to take a wild guess at who her stepfather was? Fuck.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
It is fucking John Aykroyd. For the second time, John is about to become the main suspect in a disappearance. Now, John had married Linda in the mid-80s, but divorced soon after. Despite this, though, it sounds like they stayed together anyway.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
And according to Noelle's piece in The Oregonian, they are living together in 1990 and raising Linda's children from her previous relationship, Rachanda and her brother Byron. Now, home for them was this remote community known as Santiam Junction, which is where Highway 20, Oregon Route 126, and Oregon Route 22, like, all intersect. These are all these big highways.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
John worked as a highway mechanic, so it made sense for the family to live in this, what essentially was like a compound where other highway workers lived as well.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
About 30 minutes. So police descend on this area. They bring in massive, like, search resources to find Richanda. And it's clear that police early on think that she didn't just run away. Like, nothing in her room was missing. None of her close friends had any idea where she was. And Richanda wasn't known to just wander off into the woods.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
In the Lost Women of Highway 20 doc, her brother Byron points to the fact that she was actually scared to go into the woods alone. And Linda tells police that the last time she saw her daughter was the morning of the 10th, so the day before. Richanda was up early, even helped Linda do her hair. And before Linda left for work, she gave her daughter a list of chores to do that day.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
But that wouldn't stop Kay from getting her workout in. Again, avid runner. And what should have been Kay's time to recharge and clear her head is quickly becoming... Now her family and friends nightmare because there is no sign of Kay as her husband is driving around everywhere. And by 1.30, Noel is thoroughly panicked, enough that now he needs to call police.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
But then when Linda got home, no chores had been done and Richanda wasn't there. And if she went somewhere, she would usually leave a note. That's not there either. So what's John's story through all this? Well, he said that he dropped Linda off at work that morning and then he went to go work in Bend, Oregon. John is still a mechanic for the state at that point.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
But he says that when he got there, he found that some parts that he was waiting for like didn't come in. So he ended up just taking the day off.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Correct. Even more than that, supervisors of his would later say that there was no reason for him to take off, like just because whatever parts weren't there, like there's plenty of other work that he could have been doing that day.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
home he tells police that when he got home richanda was there he saw her on the couch watching cartoons he asked her if she wanted to take pictures of deer on some like back roads or something but she didn't want to go with him because she's a teenage girl and that sounds awful yeah so he says he left to go take pictures on his own noticed richanda wasn't home by the time he got back he said when he noticed she wasn't there he like looked around a little bit then he left to go pick linda up from work and then when they got home together richando still wasn't home
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Now, in a moment that would eventually feel like deja vu for some, John is adamant that he's got nothing to do with Richanda's disappearance. While John does help search for his stepdaughter, I mean, he kind of leads the charge, actually, he's also saying things right and left that are just big, like, WTF moments.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Like, at one point, John tells police that on the night that Richanda disappeared, he and Linda had sex together. Despite, you know, like her daughter being missing. He even tells police it was great sex. Like he makes sure to say that. And he said it was notable because John has, he tells them, a low libido. So it's unusual that they even have sex.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Which would be fucked. Like, in so many words, like, they kind of point to that in the doc. Like, how messed up it would be for you to have, like, a libido in this situation when you normally don't. And then to want to have sex with this woman whose young daughter is newly missing. Like, that day. Like, I don't know.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
So, John's interview with the police, and like a lot of things with John, it only gets more troubling from there. At one point, John theorizes how someone could have done something to Richanda.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
He talks about how someone could have knocked her out with a punch, could have tied her up or used a knife to threaten her, and that her size and weight would have made it easy for someone to carry her away. And police soon find evidence that could suggest that these aren't just theories. In the back of John's truck, police find a rope with Richanda's hair and blood.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Some blood is also found on the doorstep of his truck. And I don't think these are massive amounts of blood, just like tiny drops, but blood nonetheless. I mean, at least they have some physical evidence this time. Not so fast. John claims that Richanda used the rope to play with, like, some kittens or something. So he is like, maybe that's how her hair got on it.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
He doesn't know how the blood would have gotten there. But, you know, kids be kids, basically. Like, he's like, you know how they are. And he kind of just, like, throws up her hands. No explanation is a good explanation to him. Like, and it might not be a good explanation, but... It isn't proof, again, of anything to these police officers.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
So Noel and others are eager to get searching right away, but they're told by police to wait, which is just at this point burning precious daylight hours in their minds. So eventually sheriff deputies arrive and they, along with the locals and the Turner's friends, finally do start searching for Kaye. Even when it gets dark, they search through the night.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Obviously, John is front and center, but there is a brief period where police do look at Richanda's biological father, Steve, as a possible suspect, too. You see, Richanda had just returned from visiting him. In fact, her brother, Byron, was still visiting him when she went missing. And without going into too much detail, Steve didn't sound like father of the year by any means.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
But the problem is Steve lived five hours away. So police are confident that he wasn't in the area that the time she disappeared. So even though they kind of go down this other path, they pretty quickly are right back looking at John.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
I don't know how much they actually grill him on Kay, but I think they're at least aware of it, even though there's probably been a ton of turnover in, I mean, it's been like a decade. And even though Kay disappeared in another county, it sounds like the DA of that county was monitoring the search for Richanda.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
I think there's like maybe some hope that if they can't get him on Kay, that they'll get him on Richanda. So, I mean, they're definitely connecting the dots. But outside of law enforcement, there were others who were less quick to judge John. Byron talks about how his mom would get upset when he would ask about John's possible involvement.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
In a Statesman Journal article published not long after Richanda goes missing, Linda publicly talks about how she is concerned about the focus on John. Now, why she's responding this way, I don't know. According to the Lost Women of Highway 20 doc, Richanda showed signs apparently of physical abuse and, according to her friends, sexual abuse at the hands of John.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Like, I guess Richanda and her friends would talk about it sometimes. Like, some of them were dealing with similar things at home. And according to her friends, she did tell another adult, but when she did, nothing happened. And then she was scared that, like, she was going to get in trouble or something was going to happen because she told someone.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Right, which makes it very convenient timing for Richanda to just disappear. And despite one of the most extensive searches in Lynn County history, police do not find her. So now authorities have two cold cases tied to John Aykroyd. But in the fall of 1991, an investigator looking back into Kay's case has an idea.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
He discovers that Roger Dale Beck, so the guy that was supposedly with John on Christmas Eve, he found out that he had gotten divorced from his wife, Pam. And this detective, he is willing to place a bet that now that maybe alliances have changed, stories might change as well. So he tracks down Pam, who is now living in California.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
He shows up at her house, knocks on her door, and when she answers and finds out who this guy is, it takes almost no convincing at all for Pam to come clean. All those years ago, she had straight up lied about Roger and John. Pam tells the detective that Roger and John went out to poach deer on Christmas Eve morning, but they didn't return to the house until the next day.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
And when they did, they had blood on them. And it wasn't just like a little drop or staying here and there. Pam literally had to dispose of Roger's jeans and shirt. It was so bad. And they didn't even try to pass it off as deer blood. They had told Pam that they had accidentally mistaken Kay for a deer and shot her. And they were going to need Pam to basically be their alibi.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
But there isn't a single sign of her, not even on Christmas Day or the day after, despite the searches getting bigger and bigger. Like these are extensive land searches.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
If police ever came around asking questions, she needed to tell them that they got home around noon. Eventually, Roger even admits to her that even that like bull hunting accident story wasn't real. He told her that Kay had been sexually assaulted and shot. And Roger had threatened to do the same to Pam, which is probably why she lied for him. I mean, she was terrified.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
But with Pam's new information, Kay's case starts ramping back up. But the police are in a race against time at this point. They know John is still out there and could strike again. Though, according to the Oregonian, at this time, John's basically been booted out of Santiam Junction. The people weren't comfortable with him being there.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
So he got moved, I assume by his supervisors or maybe like he chose to leave. I don't know. But he is still at the same job working as a mechanic for the state highway department. So like your tax dollars hard at work, folks. So he's apparently not living with Linda anymore and is staying with his mother in Sweet Home, where he grew up. But he's working out of a town called Corvallis.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
And Corvallis, unfortunately, is a, well, unfortunately for the people there at the time, is a thriving little college town. And while it sounds like authorities plan to keep tabs on him, I'm not sure that's as easy as it sounds. John's like a roving mechanic. It means that he is constantly moving up and down Highway 20. But in all of that moving, John does have some usual haunts.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
He becomes this like known commodity at this one particular place called Sherry's Diner along Highway 20 in Lebanon, Oregon. And there, this is wild to me, all the regulars there knew him by his CB radio handle, The Pervert.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
I know. And this guy is either the unluckiest man alive, or every girl and every woman who crosses his path is the unlucky one. Because in 1992, John finds himself right in the center of another missing persons case. Actually, this time, the case of two young women. It's a pair of best friends... 17-year-old Melissa Sanders and 19-year-old Sheila Swanson.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
It is. I'll link to that episode in the show notes for people to have a little bit of a refresher. But here we can actually dive even deeper into the details of their cases. So, according to the Lost Women of Highway 20... Both girls hung out at Sherry's diner and they knew the pervert.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
He would buy food for Melissa and he was there one of the last days the girls were ever seen when they had come in and told everyone that they were going to go on a camping trip in Newport, which is like along the Oregon coast.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Yeah. According to Noelle Crombie, who wrote extensively about this for The Oregonian, Kay even asked one of their friends to go jogging with her, but they declined. And they do eventually find a couple of witnesses, this pair of highway workers who, like, they talked to separately. They were, like, said they saw her, again, separately, like, running solo in the morning that she vanished. So,
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
He did. And he even mentioned to the girls that he might be in the same area. Now, the girls' tent ends up being found over that way, empty. But the girls are never seen alive again. I don't know how much authorities looking into Kay's case really know about this new case yet.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Part of giving him the boot out of town meant that it was harder to keep tabs on what was happening in the communities that he was living in, ones that he was working in, socializing in. And it being the 90s, information wasn't exactly super accessible between jurisdictions.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
So while investigators in one part of the state are looking for their two teens, investigators in another are running a parallel path, trying to reignite the Kay Turner investigation. According to the doc, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife had a new high-tech lab, basically. So Kay's clothes are sent off for forensic testing. And soon enough, the results come back with some very interesting finds.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
The first is that the waistband of Kay's shorts appeared to have been cut or sliced. Some sources say that her underwear were cut off, too.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
On Marlene. Marlene, yeah. Yes. Also, tears in Kay's shirt appear to be from stab wounds and lead fragments on the shirt indicate that she was shot. So that lines up at least somewhat closely with what John had told investigators about the appearance of Kay's body when he claimed to have found her in February.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Yes. So if John couldn't feel the net kind of slowly closing in on him, he is about to. On May 31st, 1992, police actually arrest, not John, but his friend Roger for the murder of Kay Turner.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Good question. There is no clear answer that I have seen reported on. So I'm not sure if it was just because they had Pam really pinning Roger for it.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Maybe they were also hoping that Roger would flip on John, so they wanted him in custody first. I don't know. But not arresting John first... or at least at the same time, could have caused valuable evidence to be lost. Because a little over a week later, police discover that a storage unit that John had rented was completely cleared out the evening of the 31st.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
They don't. And unfortunately for them, the unit's been like, I mean, it's been like swept up. Someone else had moved in right after. I know they tried to like send someone into the crime lab to check the unit out. But there's like there's nothing in the source material about what, if anything, they find. So I'm assuming it was nothing. Either way, again, they lost their opportunity for that.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
But it's game over for John almost two weeks after Roger's arrest. So on June 12th, that's when John is finally arrested. And this means that Kay's family might finally see some justice all these years later. And two other families might not have to wait nearly as long because almost four months after his arrest. So now we're in October. This is October 10th.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Some hunters come across the bodies of Melissa and Sheila a few miles off of Highway 20. According to Noelle Crombie's reporting, the medical examiner thinks that the girls were most likely strangled, though there are some conflicting sources that say they were stabbed. Either way, like Kay, the conditions of the bodies make it difficult to determine precisely what happened.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
She went on the run. Everything seemed fine. And they must not have seemed all that suspicious or suspicious at all because police didn't seem to dig deeper into either of these like highway worker guys. And there's something else that they didn't dig deeper into either. This one to me is far more baffling.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
And like Kay, there's zero forensic evidence. The only possible piece of evidence police do find at the scene is this like little rivet near one of the bodies and some kind of beaded seat cushion. The speculation being that the rivet, which is like this little screw, it could be something that John would have been using in his work.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
And the seat cushion is something that highway workers often had in their trucks to keep them cool in the summer. So John's truck is searched. He didn't have one of these cushions in it. So maybe that one was his, but it was impossible to determine at the time. And John, who is now in custody, isn't talking.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
So while police try to connect some of the dots between the girls and John, ultimately, it is this all-too-familiar song. There is no physical evidence connecting John to the girls' murders. Now, sometime later, a co-worker of John's would claim that around the time that the girls disappeared, John came into work late one night... And his arms and his hands were covered in dry blood.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
John claimed to have hit a deer and then gutted it. But this guy, I guess, didn't even really believe his story then. Did he go to police with the story? If he did, it wasn't until later, like certainly not then. It sounds like he maybe mentioned the story to his boss, but then it just kind of like stayed work gossip at the time.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
And then after the news about Melissa and Sheila's bodies being found, like, I think this guy began to wonder if there was a connection to this story. But again, a little unclear about, like, when he went to the police or the press or whatever. So in September of 1993, John goes on trial for Kay's murder. And according to the Statesman Journal, people like Roger's wife, Pam, testify against him.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
They also find more witnesses to corroborate what a predator the, quote, pervert is. A woman named Jane Morris testifies that one day in 1978, like months before Kaye's disappearance, she encountered John while she was riding a bike along a road in Camp Sherman. And she says that John pointed a gun at her, attempted to get her to stop, but thankfully she didn't.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
And then one of the more critical testimonies comes from a forensic anthropologist who tells the jury that the only way John could have seen wounds, like the type of wounds he describes seeing on Kaye, was if he saw them in the first few days after Kay died. So him saying, even that he saw her in February, not August. Even that separation wasn't enough to actually make sense.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
So on day three, this is December 26th, the deputy in charge of the search gets a radio call from a couple of trackers who had been helping authorities out. And they tell the deputy that they've discovered two sets of frozen footprints in this clearing over by the woods. Like near where she was seen running? Yeah. I don't know. It sounds like it was close.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
It doesn't make sense. They're like, there is no way he could describe the cuts, the shot, whatever, unless it happened within days.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Yep. On October 6, 1993, just a few days shy of the one-year anniversary of Melissa and Sheila's bodies being discovered, over three years after his stepdaughter, Richanda, vanished, and over 14 years after police are pointed to Kay's remains, that is when John Aykroyd is found guilty of Kay Turner's murder.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
According to an article in The Oregonian, he is sentenced to life with a 20-year minimum, which is the maximum under the law when that crime was committed. Over a month later, Roger Beck is also found guilty and he receives the same sentence.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Authorities seem to believe that Roger was only involved in Kay's murder, and so they really focused their sole attention on John for answers in those cases for Melissa and Sheila and, of course, Richanda, whose case has continued to make headlines occasionally during this time. But even though it's making headlines, police aren't much further along on that case.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
But they do keep coming back to her file year after year. They even get desperate enough to ask John to help. In the fall of 2012, an investigator with the Linn County Sheriff's Office visits John in prison, hoping maybe he's finally ready to talk or open up and provide some kind of answers to the questions that have surely haunted the people that he once called family.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
But despite the investigators' best efforts, John is not giving up his ghosts. According to the Oregonian, he continues to spill the same lies he did in the beginning. And it sounds like this is the last time any investigator speaks with John. By 2013, there is some concern that John could eventually get out on parole.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
So despite only having circumstantial evidence, and as we've mentioned, like zero body, prosecutors do bring Richanda's case to a grand jury as sort of like a Hail Mary. And the prosecution does have a solid pitch to throw. Like, logic dictates that John is probably the one who could have done this. He was the last one to have seen her alive. Opportunity.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
There was accusations of him sexually abusing her. Which gives motive. Oh, and by the way, he has now been convicted of Kate Turner's murder. So, like, we've got this history here. Yeah. And look, I'm all for due process, but we could kind of like probably know who did this. And apparently the grand jury feels the same way because they indict John on a single count of murder.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Right. So the prosecution, what they decide to do is they go to Richanda's family specifically because they want to offer him a plea deal. They're like, listen, if we go to trial and he's acquitted, like, that's it. Like, it's over. And he could go on to get parole. Right. So in their minds, it's better to focus on like they want to use this to focus on keeping him behind bars.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
And the family agrees. And John ends up entering a no contest plea. So he's not admitting fault, but he's not denying it either. And this outcome means that he can never be paroled. And while he receives some punishment for Richanda, sadly, her body still hasn't been found. Like that wasn't ever part of the deal that they made with him.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
I'm not totally clear on exactly where this was. But according to these trackers, one set of prints could have been from Kay's running shoes. They knew that she'd been wearing this specific type of Nike shoe, ones with like the old school waffle sole that we know. The other set of prints appeared to be from a larger shoe.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Ultimately, they decide not to. At this point, they say they're confident it is John who killed them. But John, at this point, is already serving a life sentence. Like, he's never getting out. So prosecutors decide not to proceed with that. Like, knowing he can never see the light of day has to be justice enough. Because that same year, John actually dies in prison.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
So they can never prosecute him, even in the future. And while some might think that that would bring this story to a close, there are still so many questions that remain unanswered, including if these are the only murders John committed.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Yeah, so the Oregonian flags to date, five other people that have either gone missing from or their remains have been found discovered in the general area off or around Highway 20 where John was known to operate. The first is a skull of a Jane Doe that they found in July of 1976.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
This is the story of the Mysteries of Highway 20. It's around 10 a.m. when Noel Turner realizes his 35-year-old wife Kay hasn't returned from her run. Now, she had left around 8 a.m. and planned to be gone for about an hour, but to make it home for breakfast. Well, that's now come and gone, times two, and Noel is getting a little worried.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
It even predates, yeah, Marlene's sexual assault. The Oregonian calls this Jane Doe, I think they call her Swamp Mountain Doe. And they report that her skull was found a mile off Highway 20. She was believed to be, they think, younger than 35. And authorities found a leather coat, a belt, blue jeans, and a sandal with like a white leather strap nearby that could have belonged to her.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
And then in May of 1977, 15-year-old Karen Lee and 14-year-old Rodney Grissom went missing from the town of Lebanon. We know that John would have passed through there regularly. I mean, that's the same town where Sherry's diner was located, where John would hang out in the 90s. It's where he encountered Melissa and Sheila.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Karen and Rodney were never found, but clothing and items of theirs were eventually found in the woods. And Karen's jeans appeared to be cut similarly to how John cut clothing off of Marlene and Kaye. Now, what we learn about Karen and Rodney is that the two wanted to run away to California. And one of the teen's last phone calls to a friend indicated that they had found a ride.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
But who they were getting this ride from is unknown. Maybe John, maybe not. Then in August of 1977, 22-year-old Elizabeth Musler went missing, also from Lebanon. Her father was the last to see her downtown. In February of 1978, her body ended up being found in a shallow grave in the Thistle Creek area of Green Peter Reservoir.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
And also in 1978, another skull of a Jane Doe was found by a logging crew in the woods near Snow Creek, which is like a quarter mile south of Highway 20.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
And so right away, it's clear that these are not the prints of two people out for a stroll in the woods. More alarmingly, the trackers say it seems like there was some kind of struggle and that the larger person dragged away the smaller person.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Sort of. I don't think he was asked in like great detail about these cases, but he was asked more broadly like, hey, John, what about some of these like other cases in the area? He claimed he didn't know what they were talking about and he had nothing to do with anything. So at the end of the day, no other cases have been directly linked to John. It's all speculative at this point.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
But it shows that maybe this story isn't totally over. And while some of his victims' families can take some solace in the fact that this man will never harm anyone again... It's heartbreaking to think that there could still be other families who don't have or may not get the same answers. But it's never too late. And that's why we do this show.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
So if anyone out there knows anything about these cases or about John Aykroyd and his life and his movements, please call the Lane County Sheriff's Office tip line at 866-557-9988. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
They did, but then it got dark and they couldn't go any further, which is something that to me, like, you follow up on after. But it seems like this deputy didn't believe them or he didn't seem as interested because that appears to be as far as this went.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
I don't know. I mean, maybe authorities did look further into it and there's just no record or reporting of it. And maybe there wasn't anything more to learn or they decided they weren't like from the people or K whatever. But. I don't know, I feel like we should have at least closed the loop on that. Yeah. Especially if they're not related at all. That doesn't happen, so we're here left guessing.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
And as more days pass without any sign of Kay, police start looking inward a little more, examining Kay's life to see if there would be any reason for her to leave on her own. According to the limited docuseries Lost Women of Highway 20, when investigators look at her and her husband's life back in Eugene, Oregon, where they live, they discover this calendar that belonged to Kay at her office.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
And in it, there is evidence to suggest that she had actually been seeing people outside of her marriage. And at the time that police are learning this, this is news to Noel, who they obviously, like, ask about this. Mm-hmm. And they know or like believe that he's not lying about not knowing because they do end up asking him to take a polygraph about this and he ends up passing.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
But he does admit that he knew Kay wasn't happy in their marriage. And we can assume police looked more into any possible affairs that Kay was having, but there's nothing in the source material to suggest that Kay did take off with someone. And again, they have witnesses like putting her out running. So logistically, like that might not even make sense, right?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
So before they knew it, it was spring and then summer. And it takes a full eight months before the first sign of K pops up. And in a really chilling way. So one day in August, the owner of this little general store in Camp Sherman is just like going about their usual day when this local guy rolls in. Now, the guy is known to her, the owner, but not in the best way.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
He had been in a couple of times and really skeeved her out when she caught him touching himself in the store while looking at some adult magazines. So like the second she sees him walk in, she's like, oh, hell no. And she goes into the back and gets her husband.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
When he comes out, the guy tells him he found some clothes while he was out rabbit hunting that he thinks might belong to that missing jogger from back at Christmas. And so he asked the shop owner if there is some kind of reward, which there was like a thousand dollar reward at the time.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
But the shop owner is all kinds of suspicious of his story because he knows at the time there are no rabbits in the area. But before this guy can wise up, the shop owner phones police and is like, hey, you probably should get here and, like, don't waste any time. Get here now.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
And if police aren't tripping over themselves to get to the general store already, they are when the store owner calls them back because since he'd hung up with them, the guy has said something else. He admits that he might have been the last person to see Kay Turner alive.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Now, it's unclear exactly when authorities put two and two together, but they soon realized that this local, this stranger who might have stumbled across Kay's clothes, isn't some random guy. They already knew him. They had interviewed him early in the investigation. His name is John Aykroyd, and he was one of the highway workers who admitted to seeing Kay running the day she disappeared.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
There's this. There's this. Right. So they go meet John and he leads police out into the woods about a mile and a half from Camp Sherman where they find several pieces of clothing. There is a yellow pair of shorts, underwear, a broken watch, Nike running shoes. And then there among the clothing, they find a lower jawbone with teeth still intact.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
And sure enough, a medical examiner will later confirm those teeth belonged to Kay.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Not at the time. So, I mean, it has been in this area, her body, I mean, in the elements for like some eight months now. Like you've got critters to deal with. I mean, a perfect example is one of the officers actually who's on the scene. They notice a piece of Kay's blonde hair like tangled up in a bird's nest.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Scattered everywhere. Yeah. But even though they won't be able to determine how she died just based on the little that they have and the way that her remains were left, they do find clues as to when. So Kay's broken watch reads 9-27, December 24th. It's a mechanical watch, not digital, just to be clear. And the stem had been knocked out.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
So like it stopped the time, though there's like some conflicting reporting that maybe it read 9.05. But either way, if it was a.m., that means that it would have broken about an hour or so into her dog that morning, right around the time Noel was expecting her to be home. So now that they know Kay's fate, they bring their first and only person of interest in for questioning.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
And John tells police, much like he did the store owners, that he was just hunting rabbits with his dog when he stumbled across the remains, the clothes, whatever. And police are also suspicious of this because, again, there wasn't a lot of rabbits in this area. So they ask John if he's willing to take a polygraph, which he agrees to.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
He ends up failing, but he still denies any involvement in Kay's death. But here's the thing. His story does begin to shift. So initially, when John told police he saw Kay running on the day she disappeared, there had been nothing else to that story. Well, now, all this time later, he says, actually, I stopped and talked to Kay. Now, it's nothing wild.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
He just, like, we exchanged holiday pleasantries or whatever. But it's significant enough, like enough of a change to make everybody be on high alert. So police ask him if he ever touched Kay because that was one of the polygraph questions he failed. And yet again, all of a sudden, the story shifts. He says, well, yeah, no, I did touch Kay. But he says, bizarrely, that he touched her in February.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
She goes missing in December. Right. And take a seat, buckle up, because the ride is shifting again. Now he tells police that he actually found her body first in February, so not in August. And he says he didn't report discovering her remains because he was afraid that he might get accused of killing her. And when he found her in February, he like touched her arm or something.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Britt, the red flags on this guy are like piled so high you can't see over them. And it doesn't get any better. John claims that when he found Kay's body in February, she was nude and partially covered in snow. And he said it looked like her throat had been cut and that she was also shot in the chest.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Yeah, specific. Specific. But still, even though this is super weird, police can't prove that John is the killer. Because even though he's giving this weird specific story, they can't prove that that is a right story or a wrong story either way because they have no physical evidence to work with. And to complicate things, John sort of has an alibi.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
He says that he spent most of Christmas Eve with a buddy named Roger Dale Beck.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
No, these are two totally different guys. Again, John and that other guy weren't even together when they saw Kay. I don't even know if they like worked together, like two separate things. Anyways, so this Roger guy confirms that he was with John, but it's unclear if he was with him before or after John would have seen Kay.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
We just know that he says he went hunting with John at some point that afternoon and then nothing weird stood out to him. Certainly nothing that would suggest to him that, like, his hunting buddy had killed a woman or was planning to kill a woman.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
And Roger's wife, this woman named Pam, she kind of chimes in at some point, giving both of these guys alibis, saying that they were at their house most of the morning.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Yes, and I'd love to drill in on that, but by this point, John has wised up and he now gets a lawyer. So no more talking and the police have to let him walk. That doesn't mean that they stop digging into him.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
So he hops in his truck to see if he can go find her, probably just hoping that she maybe sprained an ankle or got lost or something. Mm-hmm. Because though she's an avid runner, she is kind of in unfamiliar terrain right now. Because this is Sunday, Christmas Eve, actually, of 1978.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
They learn that in 1977, the year before Kay disappeared, a woman named Marlene Gabrielson told police that John had sexually assaulted her after he picked her up when she was hitchhiking along Highway 20. And her story is horrifying. She said that she fell asleep in the car on the way home, and she woke up to John dragging her out of his truck by her legs.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
And she said that he ripped off her pants, even cut her underwear and boots off with a knife, and then sexually assaulted her. At some point later, she said John seemed to contemplate what to do next with her. Like, it sounds like he was concerned about letting her go, but she pleaded with him, pointing out that she had a new baby.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
John relented, gave her a pair of his pants to wear, and they just like resumed their drive. And despite everything she had just gone through, before John finally dropped her off, Marlene convinced him to give her his phone number by like pretending that she liked him.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Very. And she's not doing this just so he thinks everything's fine. She's doing it so she can identify him later. Like she wanted to see John punished for what he did to her. And I can only assume police used that number to track John down after she'd gone to the hospital and had done a sexual assault kit. So they had brought John in for questioning at that time.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
But this is where Marlene's tragic story got even more tragic and infuriating. John told police that Marlene came on to him. And despite the bruises and the scratches that Marlene suffered and everything else she did to prove her story, to basically hand them the evidence they need on a silver platter, because he said it wasn't a sexual assault, they believed him and he was never prosecuted.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
Unbelievable. Even worse, the police seem to suggest that maybe it was Marlene's fault. They question her drug use, her drinking, if she was being flirty with John, maybe coming on to him sexually. In Lost Women of Highway 20, Marlene talks about how police made her feel like a liar.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
But they did. And somehow he passed, which probably just helped fuel the police's belief that Marlene was lying. And it also points to the thing we've said so many times, like there are flaws, there are problems with this kind of testing. And there are problems with not believing victims. Like that has very big, very real life-threatening consequences. And the police are learning that.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
But even if they see that incident in a whole new light now, it doesn't change the fact that they still don't have anything to tie him to Kay's murder. And so her case starts to go cold. According to the Oregon Journal, in October, they end up finding Kay's skull about three quarters of a mile from where her clothes and her lower jawbone were found.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
And Noel and Kay are vacationing in this remote area of Oregon called Camp Sherman, which is right off of this big main road known as Highway 20. And they took this little trip as a holiday getaway with some friends, exchanging gifts, sitting by the fire, like singing carols. It was supposed to be this magical time, like doing all the Christmassy things.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
But again, it doesn't give them much of anything. The investigators don't glean anything new from this. So all Kay's husband and her friends can do is wait. And that wait becomes excruciatingly long. I mean, over a decade passes. And in that time, letting John Aykroyd slip through their fingers has dire consequences once again.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Highway 20
This time, it's mid-morning on July 11th, 1990, when a 911 dispatcher with the Linn County Sheriff's Office gets a call from a concerned mother named Linda. She tells them that her 13-year-old daughter, Rachanda Pickle, is missing, has been since the day before. And she is worried sick, is sure something is wrong. And it's now been 24 hours, so she's calling to make the report.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And it seems like this was no planned holiday either. Lance's girlfriend tells him that she didn't even know anything about this trip, like he didn't even know. mentioned that he was going to go to St. Lucia. What? Yeah, so when detectives end up reaching him on the island, he agrees to come back to Houston.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
He sits down for an interview, and when they ask him for a DNA sample, he's cool with that too. When the comparison gets run, Lance is ruled out. He's not their guy. Which leads me to Aaron, who ironically enough is the kid of a cop or maybe a former cop, not totally sure. He is Cheryl's ex from like middle school and high school, and he doesn't share Lance's cooperative spirit.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
I'm not sure if he officially lawyers up or if he talks to investigators or any of that. All I know is that when they ask him for a DNA sample, he refuses. Doesn't give a reason, just no. Shane told us that the cop dad is straight up offended that they even would ask. So there's that.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
She also told us this weird story about Aaron showing up at their house like the day after Cheryl died and kind of just standing there like at the end of their driveway, like didn't say a word, didn't come any closer, just stood there. That's so weird and kind of creepy. Detectives think so, too. So does Barbara. Shane said she actually kind of got it. She told us she always liked Aaron.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
He'd always been decent to her sister. And she's like, I think he was in shock, like kind of like the rest of us. The standoff between detectives and Aaron over his DNA, this goes on for years. And, like, on the one hand, totally his right. But on the other hand, like, you got to know this is going to look bad. And what are you hiding? Why not give your DNA? Right.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Because of all the male friends and acquaintances that they approach during their investigation and in these years, and there are a lot, he is the only one who won't give a sample ever. And they're not getting hits on anyone else that they're testing. And so for years, everyone is side-eyeing this guy. But you can't hide forever. Though in a lot of cases we've covered, actually, you can.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
But it's very frustrating. But not here. Not with this case. Detectives, again, years later, finally get a warrant for Aaron's DNA. Hopes are high that they're about to solve this case that has haunted the city once and for all. When the results come back, everyone is probably holding their breath. But Aaron is not a match.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
If she was going to like catch a ride or not go or not be there, like a heads up would have been nice.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
That's a big if, isn't it? And to state the obvious, that same logic applies then to all the men who have been ruled out like so far through DNA comparison. Like unless you've got an airtight alibi or something, which I'm sure some of them do. But I don't have insight into any of that. Who was ruled out through alibi? Who had an alibi when their DNA was ruled out? I don't know.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
All I know is at some point in the 90s, the suspect profile does get entered into CODIS when CODIS becomes a thing, but there are no hits in CODIS. And that activity on the case, it kind of just like ebbs and flows then throughout the years. Like it picks up a little bit in the mid 90s when a reward is announced, but like nothing happens. It's just like dead end after dead end.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
No, like that's what makes this case so challenging. It truly felt completely wrong. Like this killer blew into town, committed one of the most heinous crimes these officers would see in their careers, and then was gone before the sun came up, never to return again. Or at least that's how it seemed for many years. But one day, in early 2001... Detectives get this very strange letter in the mail.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
But now Shane is running late, so she kind of just like scoots without giving it much more thought. At least not until she gets a call at work that morning at around 10 a.m. And it's a friend and a co-worker of Cheryl's, and she wants to know where Cheryl is because she just hasn't shown. And that's when Shane's stomach drops, although she's not quite sure why.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
It's addressed to HPD, but the return address says Cheryl Henry and Andy Atkinson. No address, but I'm going to have you read it for us because, I mean, this is wild.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
I think so. And a non, I think it's just supposed to be anonymous. But it's weird, right?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
They do. They do exactly as they're told. They publish their reply in the Houston Chronicle, basically like, we hear you. We want to play ball. Tell us what to do next kind of thing. Yeah. They keep all of this on the down low. Like the public doesn't know a thing about this letter at the time.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
So like even when they publish their reply, the public doesn't even know what they're looking for or to look for it. But when they publish this, it's just radio silence. They never hear from that letter writer again. They even try having the envelope process to like see if there's DNA or fingerprints, whatever. That's a dead end too. And the case is more than 10 years cold by this point.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And once again, like after this letter, when this leads nowhere, like they're out of leads. Now, I haven't touched on this yet, but Detective Belk, remember, he has been on this case from like day one. Over the years, he builds a super solid relationship with Cheryl's family. And what are solid relationships based on? Trust. How do you earn trust? Transparency.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And that's what he's been giving them. Like, he doesn't share anything that could jeopardize the investigation, of course, but he has been keeping them in the loop, step by grueling step, which has given them... like, all along this sense of, like, yes, Cheryl's case is actually being actively worked by one of the best. She's not forgotten. Yes, which is, like, what so many families want.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And in all honesty, this case is, like, his great white whale, and he really wants to solve it before he retires. And, you know, because of all this transparency that he was giving them, Shane actually shared a 2005 email chain with us. It was between them and Detective Belk, or Detective Belk and Barbara. And...
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
In this, Detective Belk lists out all of the men who have been excluded based on the DNA evidence, which at that time was 17 names deep. He even assures them that in this list, the infamous railroad killer Rafael Resendez has been ruled out thanks to CODIS. Now, just for clarification, like no one has placed this guy in Houston at the time of the murders as far as I know.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
But like I know he was in the state in July of 91 when he killed a man in San Antonio. And that's like three and a half hours away from Houston. But like, duh, he's the railroad killer. Right. Like dude got around. I don't have any context about like how or why or when he slid on the investigation's radar. So giant grain of salt here. I was just like, I was surprised to see his name on that list.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
I thought it was worth mentioning. But here's his name of people who are ruled out. They're obviously trying. They're working hard. By 2007, though, Detective Belk has come to terms with the fact. that his dreams of solving the case before he retires actually might elude him. He's been with HPD by that point for 20 years and like it's his time.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Because she knows that Cheryl was out the night before with her new boyfriend, Andy Atkinson. Like, Shane had actually been out with them, too. She dipped around 11 to give the lovebirds some, like, time alone, some space. So in her mind, the most likely scenario is that her sister just overslept or something. But still, Shane can't kick this uneasy feeling.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
So he turns in his badge and gun admitting this kind of defeat for him. Like his great white whale got away. But to be a fly on the wall when his phone rings the very next week and he's told that this could be it. They finally got a hit in CODIS after all these years, except there's always an except, right? The hit isn't a person that they've linked to his case.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
They've linked his case to another case. A brutal, like with a capital B, sexual assault case also there in Houston. So this guy is still there? Not so fast. The sexual assault wasn't recent. In fact, it happened two months before Cheryl and Andy were killed.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
I have no idea why, but the victim's sexual assault kit was never processed for 17 years.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Yes. And it wasn't the only one sitting untested either. I mean, far from it. Although that's like a whole nother podcast. Now, the good news in this, though, is the victim in that sexual assault case was still alive when detectives went and tracked her down in Galveston County.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Her story is so basically she got off work as a dancer at a club at around two o'clock in the morning, one morning in June of 1990. According to reporting by Lindsay Wise in the Houston Chronicle, she was staying at her pilot boyfriend's place and he was off like flying a plane somewhere. So she came home to an empty house, apartment, whatever. Or at least it should have been empty.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
So she walks in, kicks off her shoes, has a bite to eat downstairs, and then heads upstairs to go to bed. And that's when this man lunged out at her from a dark room. I mean, it is the stuff of actual nightmares. And here, I think the best thing to do is just have you read an account from Wise's reporting.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
When the whole thing was over, he forced her down onto the floor and told her that she better stay there because he might be gone in minutes, he might not be, and it would be bad for her basically if she like got up while he was still there. So when she finally does work up the courage to get up, she finds that her phone line had been disconnected.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
So when they're piecing this together from this victim like 17 years later, there's something like weird that pops out in her interview because they learn that she had actually worked for Andy's dad, Garland. And this is at a different club than I believe that she, like, the one at the time. But guess who worked as a bouncer at Garland's Club every so often? Andy.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
There was also this mention in KHOU that the first victim said the perp had this, quote, like, very forceful military-type stance. So people start to wonder if maybe, maybe this guy was a bouncer, maybe he was a security guard like Andy. Is there a reason, though?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
So she actually asks for permission to leave work early. She's told no, though, which I feel like is pretty messed up, like if you think your sister is missing. And before long, like the whole family knows what's going on. The whole family is worried. And Shane just wants to join Cheryl's friends and family who are already out there looking for her.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Totally. I mean, I think I think the reason they're coming up with this is like the combo of like the dark or uniform like clothes. But I mean, like, absolutely. He could have just been a customer or maybe he wasn't part of the club scene at all. I don't know.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Except as far as investigators are concerned, the possible connections only get stronger when they factor in that Cheryl had worked at another club for a short period of time. Like she and a close friend had applied to be bartenders or like cocktail waitresses or whatever, like I think it was like kind of like a mutual dare.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
That's what I thought, too. Like the suspect pool just got like so small. And so the media goes wild with this when they find out. However, like all these years on, there hasn't been anyone in particular that has popped out from that scene. And actually, Cheryl's family swears that too much has been made of this whole thing.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Shane told us that Cheryl worked, like, a few shifts the summer before she was killed at a club. So, like, this is, like, a year plus prior. And she decided really fast it, like, just wasn't for her.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Possibly, except there's something that confuses me about that. So the dancer, the thing I haven't told you, she got a good look at the guy, albeit he had like a smushed face because of what he was wearing. She definitely heard his voice, but she didn't recognize him either, like not as an employee at the club, not as like a regular customer.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
In fact, she tells HPD that she had always assumed her attacker was someone from a moving company that she had beef with. So who knows? What we do know is that She sits down with HPD's forensic artist. She has a composite sketch drawn of the man that she can still picture all these years later. She says he's tall. He has olive skin, dark hair.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And as Michelle Homer and Sherman Chow report, she thinks he was somewhere in his like late 20s, maybe early to mid 30s.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
I'm always skeptical of security guards who are like the first on the scene. And HPD was too. Like he was actually one of the guys who was ruled out with DNA. So probably one of the first, I would assume. So not him. But whoever this guy is, who attacked our first victim and then Cheryl and Andy, he's a ghost. The sketch that's published in 2008 doesn't generate any promising leads.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And that, in 2008, was the last real update in this baffling case.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
So girl is out the door the second her shift is up, racing to the family home where her mom, Barbara, and her stepdad, Dan, are waiting anxiously. Now, by now, hours have passed since everyone has realized that Cheryl was missing.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
If they did, it never made it into reporting. And keep in mind, just how much Lake Waco unraveled is in the eye of the beholder. And if the beholder is the great state of Texas, it never unraveled at all. But sure, Munir Deeb won his appeal. He was acquitted at a retrial. But the convictions of the other three defendants were upheld.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And the official party line is that they all died in prison, guilty men, including David Spence, who was executed in 97 for his supposed involvement. And if you remember, like there have been a few attempts pushed by like private parties to test DNA evidence in the Lake Waco case, which there is DNA evidence in the Lake Waco case.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
But all of those have either been unsuccessful or have stalled for reasons that are like too convoluted to get in here. Again, go listen to the episode. The long and the short of it is, as far as I can tell... No DNA profiles from Lake Waco have ever been entered into CODIS. I don't even know if they were fully processed because, again, there was no CODIS when Andy and Cheryl were murdered.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Lake Waco was even years before that. And at that point, it was closed. Yeah. And to me, this is like baffling. I can't even understand why they wouldn't. But this goes back to like the whole first case where it's like they want to be right more than they want to find the truth.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
But Cheryl and Andy's case, this case, is still unsolved today. Before you ask, yes, they have considered genetic genealogy. It might even be in the works. Or not IgG exactly. A lot of reporting seems to conflate familial DNA with genetic genealogy. And the HPD declined to give us a comment, so, like, I couldn't get a ton of clarity.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And actually, to be exact, they told us they had to respectfully decline to comment due to the sensitivity of the investigation. They didn't elaborate on that choice of words. So we tried reaching Detective Belk, too, who was retired. We couldn't get a hold of him. And in all the years, like, since Belk left, I think things have kind of broken down between HPD and Cheryl's family.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
So they're not even in the inner circle at the moment. Which to me doesn't feel like an option. Like, you don't have to be on the inner circle, but I think they deserve a yes or no. Like, are you using this new technology to solve my family member's case or not? That seems like it should be a basic right for a family to get. Now, I mentioned earlier that Garland passed away super recently.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Well, so that's the thing. No one can find Andy either. And by the time Shane gets home, she is ready to break glass. Like, look, guys, we need to call the cops. Something is wrong. And Barbara doesn't need convincing. So the police are called and a missing persons report is filed.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
When I read his obituary, I had to like... oh, it was tough to get through because, like, when his final wishes are mentioned, including his wish to be buried next to his son back home in North Carolina, like, oh, it's tough.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And I mention that because I think it's easy for people to overlook just how radically the loss of a child, especially in, like, such a horrific way, impacts, like, every last second of your life for your afterlife, too, like, whatever you think that is. Like, his final wishes were his testament to that, like, that, like, it literally followed him to his grave.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Once you've become the parent of a murdered child, like there is no unbecoming it. You have joined the worst club on earth and you're like stuck. And of course it goes so far beyond the parents too. Like, I mean, take Shane and her younger twin brother and sister, Chris and Meredith. They're 12 years younger than Cheryl, nine years younger than Shane.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And Shane says that the second that she and Cheryl met them, and I say met, like, you know, they're newborns, you know what I mean? But the second they met them, It was just like kismet. They had like found each other's soulmate, she said. Like that's how it felt. Cheryl ran straight toward baby Chris and Shane ran straight toward baby Meredith. And from that day on, that's like how it was.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Cheryl and Chris, Shane and Meredith. Until one day it wasn't. And it devastates Shane to know that Chris lost who was his soulmate that day in 1990. And it just feels like it's the wrong word to use for this, but like so unfair. Yeah. So I'm going to close out this episode with the same plea I make at the end of every unsolved case.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Someone knows something confessed to someone or was confessed to. And if that's you, crime junkies, please call the Houston Crimestoppers tip line at 713-222-8477. Garland Atkinson died without ever finding answers or justice or peace. But maybe the loved ones who are still alive today won't have to.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
In honor of Andy and Cheryl, we made a donation to the National Organization of Parents of Murdered Children. We'll link out to them in the show notes. We encourage anyone who can to do the same. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
We'll be back next week with another episode. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And then Shane is like right back out the door, ready to hit the city streets with Cheryl's friends, searching for the couple and for Andy's white Honda, which they were in the night before. But nearly four hours later, they are no closer to finding them. So Shane's heart skips a beat when she walks back in and sees her mom on the phone looking worried.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And she can only hear one side of the conversation, but it feels bad. It's like, yes, yes. Yes, that's my daughter. Where are you? We'll come right now. After what feels like an eternity, Barbara hangs up and announces that it was a security guard on the phone. And I guess this guy works for a local food distributor, and he called because he found Cheryl's purse with her number inside.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And it was on the floorboard of an abandoned white Honda. So this place that they go to, it's this really undeveloped area near the Cisco office. The Cisco is the building the security guard worked at. And it's on this dark, desolate street, which is known to people because it's known as Lover's Lane. And it also runs along this big open field leading into a big wooded area.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And it's popular with young locals for obvious in-the-name reasons. And Shane says that it doesn't strike her as super weird that the couple would have gone there. I mean, they're both living with family. 22-year-old Cheryl with her mom, her stepdad, and her little Brady Bunch-like kind of family. And 21-year-old Andy, who is new to Houston, he's living with his grandmother.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
So in less than two weeks, Cheryl was actually planning on moving in with Shane, like they were going to move in together. But until then, privacy was a hot commodity. So heading out to Lover's Lane checks out for the couple. But what the guard hadn't found anywhere near the car was Cheryl or Andy.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
I thought the same thing, but Shane actually gave us a rundown of the day, and it makes a little more sense the way that she explains it. I guess the guard had found the car for the first time, like, way earlier in the day on his rounds, but he wasn't concerned. Until it was still there. Hours later, right. And so that's when he decided to check it out.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And the windows were rolled down, the seats were reclined, And the key was in the ignition in the idle position.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Right, red flags, which is why he called them. So that's the scene when Cheryl's family and friends start showing up, desperate to find some sign of the missing couple. And right away, they zero in on some cigarette butts stained with lipstick on the ground near the car. The lipstick looks a whole lot like it was Cheryl's. And when they peek inside the car...
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
They see something that the security guard hadn't mentioned, something more ominous than lipstick stains on cigarette butts. They see deep, dark stains on the inside of the driver's door.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
They're not sure. but it looks an awful lot like blood. So much so that they do a kind of like back away slowly kind of thing. Like the last thing they want to do is contaminate what could be evidence.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Well, in this area, there are no streetlights and it's dark by now. So my guess is that the headlights from all the cars that are now there from everyone who came, maybe he's making it easier to see. They also probably are like bringing lights in. I don't know. Hmm. whatever they have is definitely more light than, like, a lone patrol car would have provided.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And the story I have for you today is one of Houston's most brutal cold cases, one that still haunts the city to this day. But as we crime junkies know, cold doesn't mean unsolvable. And hopefully, that's where you all come in. This is the story of Andy Atkinson and Cheryl Henry.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And Andy's car battery is dead from the car being left in idle, so there probably were no overhead lights, like, at the time. Now, in 1990, no one has a cell to call 911, and by the time they see all of this, the security guard is, like, on the other side of that big field, walking the tree line with one of Cheryl's friends. They're just, like, searching over there.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
So Shane races to the Cisco building with Cheryl's best friend, where they ask the front desk person to call 911. And then they wait and wait and wait for like 30 or 40 minutes. But no one shows up.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
No cops, no first responders, no fire trucks, nada. So the girls have to actually go back and have them call 911 a second time. And this time the response is immediate and overwhelming.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Like that, yeah. So this army of cops and first responders get to work. They search with helicopters up in the sky. They have scent tracking canines on the ground, like the works. And a little after 11 p.m., Shane watches a scene unfold. And she told us that to this day, it like. plays out in her mind. It is pure chaos. There's just so many people bustling around.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
She was like walking up to her dad in a daze when out of the corner of her eye, she sees an officer say something to her mom. And then she just hears this blood curdling scream. And to Shane, it looks like the officer like catches her mom from falling when she howls. And it's like there are no words. It's just these like guttural, primal shrieks.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And Barbara actually says later in reporting for KHOU 11 that the officer holding her up is also holding her back from running towards the area across the field where there's just this like sudden flurry of activity. And Shane can't even process it all. She turns to ask her dad what's wrong, like what happened? Why is everyone so upset all of a sudden?
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And I don't know if he's been briefed or if he's just like putting two and two together. But he responds with the last two words that Shane is prepared to hear. She's gone. And in the blink of an eye, investigators surround them, like corralling them towards their car saying like, listen, we're so sorry, but like you have to leave now. This is a crime scene.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And the entire family is thinking like, how? How can they leave Cheryl out there? But they don't have a choice. So they go and investigators have to get to work. Jill Tyra reported for Wilmington Morning Star that Cheryl's body had been found by a scent tracking dog about 200 yards from Andy's car, just barely into the wooded area past the field.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
When she's found, she's naked, lying face down on the ground, and her hands are actually bound behind her back with rope. And she has what looks like jagged wounds to her head and her neck. And her throat has been slashed. And her killer, it seems, made a half-hearted attempt to conceal her body under some pieces of like wood from this like rotting fence.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And then they find her clothes nearby, a single $20 bill as well. Her pretty turquoise summer dress with like red accents had actually been cut from her body. And Shane thinks maybe her underwear had been too, she told us, which suggests to investigators that whatever horrors Cheryl had been met with probably involved a sexual assault.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Now, at this time that they find Cheryl, there's still no sign of Andy, though as they secure the scene and get Cheryl to the morgue, searching for him does continue. But by the wee hours of the morning, they decide they need to break till sunrise. This is all absolute torture for Andy's dad, Garland.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
He got to the scene not long before Cheryl's body was found, and he, like, set out walking the tree line, too, only to be hustled away almost without explanation. Garland passed away actually recently in October of 2024. But I found this interview he did with Linda Sheldon Fell for a series that she hosts called Moments of Hope.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And when he's talking to her, he gets choked up because he talks about this HPD officer who actually asked to stay at the scene until the search could pick back up at sunrise. And he explains that at the first hint of daylight, that officer starts walking the same tree line that Garland walked multiple times the night before.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
taking things in, looking for anything that might have been missed in the dark. I mean, looking for Andy. And out there... All alone, it's that officer who stumbles on this grisly scene. Because there Andy is, sitting at the base of this enormous tree, tied to the tree with rope. His legs like stretch out in front of him and he's facing the woods.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And like Cheryl, his throat was slit so deeply though that he was nearly decapitated.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Yeah. I thought the same thing. And listen, for anyone who hasn't listened to our Lake Waco episode, so it was like a two-parter that we did recently. I'll try and link out to it in the notes or whatever. But I agree. It's got some like eerie similarities to this case. Like the second I heard about Andy, that's what I thought about. But... You got to think about this.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
No one at the time is thinking there's a possibility of a connection because by the time Cheryl and Andy were murdered, they already had people in prison for the Lake Waco case. I was going to ask about the timing. Right. Now, knowing what I know now, to me, that means nothing. But back then, no one is screaming serial killer.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
But to go back to Andy, and we can touch on this Waco stuff maybe later. Andy's fully clothed. His hands are bound behind his back. And where the injuries to Cheryl's neck were kind of like jagged and imprecise, I guess Andy's throat had just like one clean slash.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
I don't know exactly. I've seen like everything from like 75 yards to 150 yards. I don't know for sure. What I do know is that Jill Tyer's report says there aren't any obvious defensive wounds on Andy. It says the same about Cheryl, actually. But we actually reviewed both autopsy reports, and I don't think that's actually accurate for her. Like, girl went down fighting.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
And there's this weird thing about the crime scene that I haven't mentioned. I'm not sure when investigators notice it, like before or after Andy's body is found, I mean. But reporting for KHOU 11 says that a golf club and golf balls from Andy's car had been like laid out in the field in like this line area.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
that was pointing to Cheryl's body, which to me is just like extremely weird and clearly like someone wanted them to be found.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Now, I think it's helpful at this point if we talk through the scene in terms of like likely series of events because, spoiler alert, answers are hard to come by in the coming years. And there's not a ton of reporting on how it all would have unfolded. The broad strokes are this –
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
The thinking is that there's some kind of blitz attack when the two are in the car and somehow they're then taken to the tree that Andy was tied to.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
That's something that investigators are going to debate for years. It could be either, I think. Again, I think the thing that's clear is that it started with the attack on Andy in the car because of all the blood that's on the door. Right. Right. One way or another, their hands get tied behind their back. Remember, Andy doesn't have defensive wounds.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
So either he's cooperating because, again, there's a threat to hurt Cheryl or him, or he's incapacitated and can't even fight back. And then Cheryl either makes a run for it and they catch up to her or they walk her to a different area. But when they get her over there, they cut off her clothes, assault her and kill her there where she was found.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
According to reporting for KHLU 11, investigators tell Garland that they do think for some reason that she was killed first. I don't know their reasoning. That's never fully explained. But that's the theory.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Yes and yes. Even though 1990 is super early for DNA science, the detective who works this case the longest, this guy named Detective Billy Belk, He knows what a powerful tool DNA is shaping up to be. So from, like, day one, he asks the higher-ups to have evidence processed at this special lab that has the tech to detect DNA.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
When 19-year-old Shane Henry pulls up to give her older sister Cheryl a ride to work on the morning of August 23rd, 1990, she does what most teenagers do in the pre-cell dark ages. She lays on the horn and waits. Shane's got to get to work herself, so she's like a little peeved when she has to go inside. More peeved when she realizes that Cheryl isn't even there.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
Expensive, right. You're not wrong. But you know the saying, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. So Detective Belk decides to shoot his, and it works. He gets the okay. The lab hits full. They're able to build a suspect profile from the semen in Cheryl. But downside of early days DNA, no database. There's nothing to compare it to. Right.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
No amount of evidence is going to replace the grueling work of boots on the ground investigating. So detectives start interviewing family and friends and they start working their way out from there. Now, neither family knows of anyone who would want to hurt Cheryl or Andy. They're both really good kids. They weren't wrapped up in anything shady. And everyone loved them.
Crime Junkie
INFAMOUS: Lovers' Lane Murders
But Cheryl's loved ones do offer up a couple of names that pique detectives' interest. Let's call them Lance and Erin. So Lance is the boyfriend of a friend that Cheryl had been kind of on the outs with recently. Dude, like, I guess skipped town the morning after Cheryl was found. More than the town, he skipped the whole country, like took off for St. Lucia.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
And this guy tells investigators that this car has been sitting in the same spot at Riverwood Apartments for at least a couple of weeks.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Well, according to David, the guy contacts police because he saw something on the news about Marcus's disappearance and the car. So maybe he had only just realized. I mean, again, it's not getting bad about this car. It's just kind of been there. And then once they make known what car everyone's looking for, he's like, oh, that's the car. Does Marcus know someone who lives at this complex?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
No, so that's the thing. As far as anyone knows, Marcus has zero connection to this complex. And while investigators don't find any signs of violence in the car when they look at it, like there's no blood or anything like that, the fact that it's just sitting there, abandoned, makes them think something bad must have happened to Marcus. I mean, if he wanted to take off and start a new life, like,
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
The car is the thing you need, right? Or if you're going to leave your car behind, just leave it parked at your place. Why drive 20 miles and then ditch it at this random apartment complex? And what's even more wild is apparently someone had been driving the car around.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
The maintenance man tells detectives that he saw this middle-aged guy occasionally using it before it was left there for good around mid-June. So somebody who was definitely not 23-year-old Marcus. Right. Now, Detective Filter says that they never identified who this mystery driver was.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
They're not local. They're in southeast Michigan while Tawani and Marcus both live in Nashville, Tennessee. Marcus had actually moved to Nashville to attend Tennessee State University, TSU. But even with the distance, like his family talks to him pretty regularly. So Tawani is hoping that they might know where he is. But it turns out they haven't heard from him either.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
But he also says that there could be explanations that don't necessarily include this driver being the one who did something to Marcus. Like he says, there is a world, right, where someone just handed this person the car without telling them anything about Marcus. Like could have been someone who didn't realize what they were driving around until they had found out it belonged to a missing person.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
And then when they did, like that's when they left it there and didn't go back for it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
It wasn't locked. Okay. But Detective Filter couldn't find anything in the reports that indicated if the keys were in it or not. And the maintenance man had no clue who the driver was, by the way, like hence the vague description. And this is a guy, the maintenance guy, he's like around a lot. And he's like, I don't recognize him. I hadn't seen him around before.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
And if they did have something to do with it, right? And it's not just like a car that was given to them. Or even if, again, they now know it belongs to a missing person. Like, I don't think they're going to be like fessing up to knowing him. Right? Right. I don't know. All the things are possible. It's also possible that the canvassing they did was just light. Again, maybe people were lying.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Or option C, I just truly don't know. But they're hopeful that now that they have the car, maybe they can find the driver another way. And maybe through forensic evidence. Right. So police have the Plymouth towed to their lab and inside they find a gun that's tucked under the driver's seat. Now, is this more evidence of Marcus's double life?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Like, did the gun belong to the person who was driving the car? Did it belong to Marcus? Like, couldn't tell you because it doesn't look like the gun was actually registered to anyone. Though it seems like from, you know, what we learned from Detective Filter that everyone assumes the gun was Marcus's.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
They also managed to lift two fingerprints from the car, one from inside the driver's side window and then another from a rented VHS tape that they find in the car. And the print from the tape leads nowhere. The detective told us they confirmed it belonged to an employee at the video rental place, which is like, give me an older sentence.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
And the fingerprint on the window, they eliminated Ethan and Tawanya as the sources of it. But they didn't eliminate anyone else. They couldn't determine who it belonged to. Here's the wild part to me. They said it could be Marcus's because Detective Filter says they don't have his prints on file. Like, here's where I get a little skeptical.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Like, sure, Marcus was never arrested, so his prints weren't in the system. Right. But they have access to his apartment. Like, couldn't they have lifted his prints from there to compare?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Yeah. Detective Filter told us the car was examined meticulously, is what he said, and that it didn't appear to be wiped down or anything like that. That's a question we asked. But he says he also can't say for sure. Again, he wasn't on the case back then. So from what I can tell, those are the ones that they were able to pull.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Now, according to what his dad David told our reporter Nina, when he got that first call from Tawania, he understood her concern. Like, Marcus going MIA, even to him, is unheard of. But, you know, he tries to reassure her at first. Maybe Marcus just got held up somewhere. It'll be fine. Just, like, give it a beat.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
And here's the thing, Prince aside, what really concerns investigators is what they don't find in the car, which is any proof that Marcus was alive after June 8th. All of the receipts, everything in the car predates his disappearance. Now, meanwhile, so they find this. Marcus's family is back in Michigan at this point trying to process their new reality.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
To David and Jerry, each revelation about their son feels like another piece of the puzzle, one that they never thought they would have to solve. His student loan notices are starting to come in the mail, which is this reminder of a life that he was supposed to be building. And there's something else that's coming in, something far stranger than student loan bills.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Shortly after their son goes missing, Jerry and David start getting these strange phone calls on their home phone in Michigan. The phone will ring and ring, but when they pick up, it's nothing. Just silence on the other end. And Jerry, they don't just like say hello and stop talking. I mean, Jerry pleads with the caller like Marcus, if this is you, please just say something.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
But whoever is on the other end never speaks. And Felicia remembers it happening like two or three times in those first couple of months. And according to an article by Jax Miller for Oxygen Network, Marcus's son's mom was getting the same kind of unsettling, quiet calls. Do police try to trace these calls? Not that I'm aware of.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Like, I don't know if they even try to begin with or if the problem was like, from what I can tell, there's no pattern to this or anything. So I don't know if they just think they're weird or if they just didn't care enough to do it. I don't know. But these calls do give his loved ones hope that Marcus is still out there maybe, maybe still alive. Investigators, though, they are not as optimistic.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
The calls are, like I said, super sporadic. Months will go by without a single one. And in that time, the leads are even fewer. So almost as quickly as it all begins, the case goes cold. Police don't have enough to work with, no real trail to follow. All of the fragments that they've uncovered about Marcus haven't even fit together into any kind of coherent picture.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
No one they speak with seems to have the whole story. Well, almost no one. They're still pretty sure that Ethan knows way more than he's letting on. Maybe he doesn't know exactly what happened to Marcus, but Detective Filter believes that he had some idea of what happened or who might have been involved.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Because even though he was upfront about, you know, selling weed, for whatever reason, after that and beyond that point, it appears that he kind of just shut down. And while it's possible that given time, he might have decided to share more, that is a chance that he doesn't get. Because little do detectives know, they are about to have a new case to work. And their victim will be Ethan.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
But Tawania says that she wants to go to Marcus's duplex apartment to just check on him. So David tells her, like, OK, just, like, keep me posted. And meanwhile, he and Jerry start making a series of unsuccessful calls to Marcus themselves trying to reach him. So when Twania pulls up to Marcus's apartment, his car, this red 1995 Plymouth Neon, isn't there.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
So let me take you to February 1999. By now, Marcus has been missing for about eight and a half months, and the case is at a complete standstill. Investigators are convinced that Ethan knows more than he's letting on, but he's not talking. Now, around this time, Ethan is tied up with someone new, this brand new roommate of sorts, this guy named Charles D. Brown Jr.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
And this new arrangement is raising some eyebrows, especially with Ethan's brother, Jonathan. Jonathan has been staying with Ethan, but as soon as Charles moves in, Jonathan's like, I'm peacing out for a bit. Like, he just wants to get away from the guy. Because Charles is one of Ethan's closest friends, but Jonathan has never approved of him.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
He didn't think that Charles was the type of person his brother should hang out with. And there was definitely reasons for concern. So according to articles in the Tennessean by Kirk Loggins and Kathy Carlson, Charles had passed arrest for aggravated assault, unlawful weapon possession, and selling and possessing weed.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
He had also been shot and shot someone during an attempted home invasion that happened. Interestingly, that attempted home invasion happened one day after Marcus went missing.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Right, so let me rewind real quick and tell you about this home invasion, because the details are interesting, to say the least. So in the morning on June 9th, 1998, three or four masked men broke into Charles's apartment. And at the time, he was living with his girlfriend and two young children. And everyone was home when the intruders broke in. They demanded money and then they started shooting.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
They're like spraying bullets everywhere with at least two guns. Charles gets shot five times and somehow not only did he manage to survive, he also returned fire and hit one of the gunmen who then took off. And John Yates reported something really intriguing for the Tennessean.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Witnesses told police that they saw the suspects flee from Charles' place in two vehicles, including a red one that they thought looked like a Chevy Corsica. And when I googled a red Chevy Corsica, it looks an awful lot like Marcus's then-missing Red Plymouth, which I actually have the photos to show you because it's just too bonkers.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
I mean, like, if you weren't, like, a car... Person. Right. Or, like, not even a car person, but, like, you knew your makes and models, you could easily mix those up. Anyway, within an hour of the home invasion, a man named James Cowan shows up at the hospital with multiple gunshot wounds.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Cowan tells police some story about getting shot from a car, but court records show that the bullet recovered during his surgery matched a gun that the shooters left behind at Charles' apartment. So I'm guessing that Cowan was hit by maybe friendly fire during the chaos because, again, it didn't come from like Charles's gun. Supposedly it was a gun left behind.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Again, I don't know if that matters or not, but whatever. Now, this Cowan guy was no stranger to detectives. He was actually a potential suspect in six homicides. Oh, my God. Yeah. As far as I can tell, Cowan was never arrested for murder.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
He was, however, arrested and convicted of attempted first degree murder, especially aggravated robbery and aggravated burglary for the home invasion on Charles. And he was sentenced to six decades in prison because of the violent nature of the crime and his extensive rap sheet, which included multiple drug related felonies.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
But instead of that reassuring her, like, oh, he's just out for some reason, she's actually more convinced than ever that something is up and she needs to get into his apartment. Now, even though they've been together for a little bit, it doesn't look like she has a key to his place.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Now, in connection to all of this, Charles wasn't arrested since he was acting in self-defense. But investigators didn't believe that Cowan and the crew he came with just randomly chose Charles's house to rob.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
It was. But as far as I know, they didn't arrest anyone or charge anyone except for Cowan.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
So that's not totally clear from the court records. They say they recovered two guns. They recovered a 9mm found in the backyard. And they had Charles' gun, which is a .357 revolver. But there were at least three guns involved.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Because according to testimony, at one point during this struggle, an accomplice of Cowan's threw him a quote-unquote big gun when the first gun that he was using ran out of ammunition.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Well, so at the time this is happening, I mean, they're not going to find that for weeks. But when they do find it, I know that they run the bullets through their database to check for links to other crimes, but nothing comes up. So I don't think that gun was used in this. OK. If that's what you're getting at.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
OK, so that happens. Now let's jump back to February of 1999. According to Kirk Loggins, on the 18th, Ethan informs his brother that Charles is going to crash with them. Right. And so this is when Jonathan's like, don't like this guy. I'm going to peace out. A couple of days after that, Ethan tells him that Charles was, quote unquote, going crazy. Like apparently he was super paranoid.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
He was saying that his girlfriend was trying to have him killed. Right. But it's not like Jonathan moved away. I mean, I don't think Charles was supposed to be a permanent fixture. He just needed to crash for a couple of days. So the night of Tuesday, February 23rd, Jonathan comes back to the house. And when he pulls up, the door to the duplex is wide open.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
And when he makes his way inside, there on the floor, he sees his brother, Ethan's body, stiff and cold. He had been shot multiple times. Now police believe that Ethan was actually killed days before he was found sometime before noon that past Sunday. They also think that there might have been more than one weapon used and shell casings that they find appear to be from a .40 caliber gun.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
So she devises this plan to call Marcus's best friend, Ethan Gibbs Jr., who basically helps her just break into the place.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Now they don't see any signs of forced entry although they do notice that something is missing. Athens White Pontiac Grand Am. But the next day, someone spots this vehicle in Nashville's Englewood neighborhood, which is like 18 miles from Athens' apartment, and they recognize it from the news reports. This is feeling too similar. Right?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
And Ethan's aunt tells Kathy Carlson that his family doesn't know of any connections that he has to that area. Of course. Now, obviously, the biggest difference between Marcus and Ethan's cases are that Ethan's is clearly a homicide. He's been found while Marcus is still a missing person. Right.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
And while detectives are still basically in the dark about what happened to Marcus, they've got a pretty good theory forming about who might be responsible for Ethan's murder. It's gotta be Charles. Yeah, and mostly because an Inglewood woman IDs him as the guy that she saw leaving Ethan's car on her street the day before his body was found.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
No, they thought that guy was middle-aged. Charles is like Marcus's age, so like 23. Early 20s.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
I guess. I mean, I think it's the unanswered phone calls. It's just, again, I can't. It's so unlike him. So unlike him. Even when she calls Ethan, like, he doesn't think she's overreacting. He's just as concerned. So when Ethan gets there, he and Tawania break in through a back window.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
But still, police can't ignore how sketchy his behavior gets. Kirk Loggins reported that Charles skips Ethan's funeral and completely ghosts police when they try to question him further. A friend who hung out with Charles and Ethan over the weekend tells investigators that Charles was seriously worried about his own safety, possibly because of that home invasion that we talked about.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Now, Charles was apparently so convinced that someone was after him that he was wearing a bulletproof vest around. And he had at least two guns in his SUV, including a .40 caliber like the shell casings found at the scene. So talking or not, they do have enough on him to charge him with Ethan's murder in early March. And after a few days on the run, he ends up turning himself in.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
No, so not likely. Detective Filter actually refers to Ethan's murder as drug-related because he believes that Ethan was selling weed when he was killed, so he was wrapped up in what could have been a dangerous crowd.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Although if he was, I mean, he was clearly keeping some secrets of his own from certain family members because his aunt says that Ethan was working as a tax consultant at his father's, like, income tax business. So I don't know that they're connecting it to like Charles's paranoia or if they're saying the paranoia is separate and Charles did it because it was a drug thing. I don't know.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Either way, at first, investigators suspect that there could be a connection between Ethan's murder and Marcus's disappearance. And when the Rutledge family hears about Ethan's death, they can hardly believe it. Marcus's sister Felicia is devastated because in her mind, Ethan was the one person who could fill in maybe someday all the blanks about her brother. And now he's gone.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
But Charles' arrest is a hopeful sign for Marcus' dad, David, because he figures that once police start, like, pushing on Charles, maybe the dam will burst and maybe they can finally find his son. But here comes another unexpected twist. I wish I could tell you more about what investigators learned from Charles. There is not much info available.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
We know that a preliminary hearing is held later that March. Charles is emotional. He's sobbing at times and like shaking his head throughout the proceedings. The judge finds sufficient evidence to send the case to a grand jury. Thank you.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
And what they find inside just kind of confirms for them that they made the right decision because even though there's no sign of a struggle or foul play, Marcus's Rottweiler is shut in his bathroom with no food or water except like the water in the toilet. And they can tell that he's been there for a while because he had eaten part of the bathroom carpet.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
And they know that Marcus would never leave his dog like that, not even for a short amount of time, let alone for however long it took this dog to start chewing on the rug. So there's no indication that Marcus was planning for any kind of trip, right? Like his clothes are still there. There's no bag or suitcase that's packed or even missing. Like nothing is standing out to them.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
So with David and Jerry's encouragement, Tawania calls the Metropolitan Nashville Police Department that very night. And an officer comes to take a missing persons report. Now, initially, he gets some basic details about Marcus. He puts out a bolo for his car, which should stick out because like it has not only is it red, but like has Michigan plates. It's not local. Right.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Now, even though there is nothing in his apartment that is obviously out of place, like it doesn't appear that he was even robbed, nothing like that, David told us that something was taken from Marcus's apartment that day that police do kind of check out. So Marcus's landline phone was taken, but there's no mystery about who took it. It was Tawania. Why?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
She says apparently it was her phone and she wanted it back? Yeah. Why did police let her take anything? I don't know. I don't know if they didn't realize that she even did at first. Like, we actually got to speak with Nashville cold case detective Matt Filter. He is the one heading up the investigation now, although he wasn't on the force when this all started. But he told us that Tawania...
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
actually took Marcus's caller ID because apparently she wanted to look for numbers that she might recognize. Like, I don't know if the caller ID is, like, built into the phone. I don't know why she would take it instead of telling police. I was going to say, but couldn't she have checked it right there at the apartment? I know. This part, like, doesn't totally add up for me.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
But for whatever reason, she took it with her. Police do, though, get it back from her pretty quickly, like once they realize. But it's useless to everyone because Detective Filter says that when she unplugged it at Marcus's house, all of the numbers were automatically erased.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
So if she was trying to see something, that information is now gone. And that's just one of the things weighing on David and Jerry's minds as they make the 500-plus mile drive to Nashville the next day. So when they arrive, Tawania's house is their first stop. Now, Tawania isn't a stranger to them. On, like, a past trip to Nashville, David and Jerry had taken her and Marcus out to dinner.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
But this time, they're not here for a friendly visit. Like, they want answers from her. Yeah. But Tawania tells them she has no idea what could have happened to Marcus or where he might be. And the only person she can think of who Marcus spent a lot of time with is Ethan. So Marcus's parents arrange to meet up with him at their son's duplex. But he doesn't have any insight to share either.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
And the story I have for you today is about how a young man's disappearance revealed a secret life. And his secret life made it so much harder for investigators to solve his disappearance. This is the story of Marcus Rutledge. So it's the afternoon on Monday, June 8th, 1998, and a woman named Tawania is getting kind of nervous.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
He says that he is just as lost as they are and he wants to help them find Marcus any way he can. However, David and Jerry can't help but notice that their son's friend seems awfully nervous. Like he's literally sweating, he can't sit still, and there's just this uncomfortable energy that is like vibrating off of him.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
So they actually know him pretty well because up until a few months ago, Ethan and Marcus shared an apartment. They were roommates. But like Marcus had recently decided to get his own place. So he moved out, like moved into this duplex that they had now looked at.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Yeah, I think you can call it that. I think the two just had like roommate issues, but stuff that like two people who live together might encounter, little things that just like get under your skin.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Preach. Marcus had, I guess, been into his family about Ethan. He's messy. His bills weren't getting paid on time, like that kind of thing. But even after Marcus moved out, he and Ethan stayed really close friends. So, like, there is no bad blood between them. And honestly, Marcus's family had always liked Ethan. He is a respectful guy from a good family.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
They never had any cause for concern about Marcus being around him. And even now, they're wondering if his reaction is is maybe just because of the circumstances. I mean, his best friend is now missing, seemingly vanished into thin air. But Marcus's sister Felicia notices the same strange vibe when Ethan takes her driving around to look for her brother's missing car.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
She's like, Ethan's acting tense. He's not saying much other than just like suggesting places where they should maybe look for the car. He's saying that he's worried about the whole situation. But again, nothing like incriminating. It's just like it could be chalked up to the same thing, right? Now, as detectives start digging in, they begin to learn more about Marcus's life.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
He has two children, a nearly four-year-old son with a former girlfriend in Knoxville, and a two-year-old daughter with Tawania. He is super involved with both kids, always checks in with his son, but that child and his mom haven't heard from him either.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
According to Tennessean reporter Beth Warren, Marcus had last seen his son in May when they went to the zoo, and they had been planning a big party for his upcoming birthday.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
No, no, he gets along well with both of his children's mothers. So like that feels like a quick dead end, which is when they turn to his school. Maybe someone at the university there can help them piece things together. But this is where they encountered the first big twist in their investigation. It turns out Marcus has been keeping some major secrets from his family.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
So police learn that Marcus actually dropped out of college the year before, back in 1997. What? Yeah, he's basically been pretending to be a student ever since. And his family had no idea? Mm-mm.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
She and her 23-year-old boyfriend, Marcus Rutledge, were supposed to meet up, but he's a no-show. Not even answering his cell phone. She's like calling him and calling him, but she's just not hearing anything back.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
In fact, the last time Marcus visited his parents, which was just a few weeks before he went missing, this was for Memorial Day, he was there for a cookout, he said he left early because he had to study for an exam. Did Twania know? I don't know. So the detective we talked to didn't know either. And Nina tried calling the number that Marcus's dad had for Tawania.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
We're not sure if it's still the right number for her anymore. Like, long story short, we haven't been able to talk to her to figure that out. But either way, his family... was shocked to find this out from police. Like going to TSU was the entire reason Marcus moved to Nashville in the first place. I mean, both his parents went there. He wanted to follow in their footsteps.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
I mean, the wild part is they thought he was close to graduating. It's not just that he was going there. They were expecting to go to a graduation soon. But that's not the only surprise in store for the family. Because even though Marcus doesn't have a criminal record, investigators also learn that he'd been selling weed.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
And they think that he might have started when he was still a student because his clientele seems to mostly be other students. Like, it doesn't seem that he was out on the streets dealing. And we're talking small-scale stuff, like not some big-time operation. Right. And Ethan actually admits this to police.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
He says that he and Marcus both sell weed, although I'm not sure if they work together or what. And I don't know if Ethan is the first person that they hear this from or if he's just confirming this info that they learn or already had. But he doesn't try to hide it, I think is the main point.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Maybe, yeah. But here's the thing. Even while he's being honest about the weed, investigators still can't shake this feeling like Ethan is holding something back. They just don't know what because like I don't think that all that stuff like just stops after they learn the thing right or what they think could be the thing. Did he know that Marcus had dropped out of school?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
I assume he knew because they spent a decent amount of time together. I mean like I think I would tell you things I wouldn't necessarily tell my parents like when I was his age but there doesn't seem to be any solid confirmation of that like. It's kind of like with Tawania, I mean, and even his other ex. I don't know what any of them did or did not know about him dropping out of college.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
So it actually hasn't been very long. I mean, he had spent the night at her place and then took their two-year-old daughter to daycare at around like 10 o'clock that morning. And they've even honestly talked on the phone since at like 1, 1.30 that afternoon. So truly, very little time has passed. It might not even ring alarm bells for some people.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
But I do know that both women, Tawania and his other ex, seemed to be aware that he was selling weed. I know that much. In an interview with Dateline NBC reporter Josh Mankiewicz, his son's mom said that he was doing it to help provide for their child. And Tawania tells detectives the same thing, that this was just a way he could make enough money to support everyone.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
hurt and confused to find all of this out like this like it completely goes against his upbringing like they raised Marcus and his sister in this solid home they felt that like centered around family it's centered around church David is actually an elected official Jerry is an elementary school teacher so like selling drugs lying about being in college all of this is the last thing they expected from their son
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
However, speaking of secrets, this wasn't the only time Marcus had kept a big one from his parents. They actually didn't know about their grandson until he was born. And Marcus was only 19 at the time.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Yeah. I mean, I think he was probably just afraid that David and Jerry would be disappointed in him.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
So at that Memorial Day cookout that I mentioned, his sister Felicia thought that he seemed unusually stressed. But when she asked him about it, he just said that he had a lot going on in Nashville. He didn't really elaborate. And as far as his parents knew, everything was fine. Like you can chalk stress up to the finals he said he was going to go study for. And say schooling, yeah. Right.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
So you can imagine. How overwhelming this is for his family. They are already dealing with him being missing. But then to discover that he was living a life they really knew nothing about, it was a lot. And David told us it's like walking through a nightmare. And as investigators dig deeper into Marcus's life, more concerning details emerge.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
He had gotten into a couple of altercations, one reported to police when it happened about a year before his disappearance, and then another just a few months before he went missing. Both incidents were apparently related to him selling weed, although Detective Filter won't share specifics about those altercations.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
But the thing is, this is totally uncharacteristic of Marcus not to answer his phone. And if he did miss a call, he would get back to whoever tried him like ASAP. So right away, she knows in her gut that something just doesn't feel right. So she reaches out to Marcus's parents, David and Geraldine, known as Jerry. And she's just trying to see if like they have heard anything from him.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Not that investigators can tell. I don't think there's anyone specific or if there is, they're not sharing that. It seems like from everything they look at, they can't find any immediate dangers in his life. No one is saying Marcus owed them money. No one has been like making threats to him. But they do discover something interesting.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Back in mid-May, Marcus, they find out, had rented a car for like 10 days. And this stood out because they know that he didn't get into an accident or anything. So it doesn't look like his own car was out of commission or anything. So why rent? Right. Now, did he drive back and forth from Nashville to Knoxville a lot to see his son? You know, that's like 360 miles each trip.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
Maybe he didn't want to put the miles on his car. But Detective Filter pointed out an alternative possibility. He says that when you're doing something illegal... You might not want to use your own car to do that. But they don't know if he was doing something illegal with the car or what he was using it for in those 10 days. They truly just have no idea.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
So they find that out. But then beyond that, not much turns up. There is a recent traffic ticket, some receipts from a car wash, like nothing that points investigators in any real direction. So here you have this devoted father who has suddenly stopped checking in with his kids, which seems completely out of character.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Marcus Rutledge
But they've also just learned that he's been living this whole other life that his family knew nothing about. And they really can't tell if he left on his own or if something happened to him. But their thinking starts to shift on Tuesday, June 30th. That is when a maintenance man at an apartment complex more than 20 miles from where Marcus lives spots Marcus's missing Plymouth.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
No more back and forth with Matt. She wanted out. Which feels like real motive. Even more so when investigators learned about the money side of things. You see, Matt and Gwen had a prenup in place. Detectives told us that Matt claimed the agreement was his family's idea. Apparently they were pretty well off. But detectives said Matt also stood to lose in the event of a divorce.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Gwen had brought in around $70,000 to the marriage, and so if she and Matt ever got divorced, she would get that $70,000 back. And that meant that Matt would have to pay up.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Now, with Gwen dead and still legally his wife when she died, instead of losing money in a divorce, Matt actually stood to make money off her death.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
That wasn't the only money at stake. Apparently, detectives said there was also something with real estate, the house he and Gwen previously lived in together before they separated. Like maybe he needed Gwen's signature to officially sell it and perhaps he'd been frustrated that she'd been holding out.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
None of this was a good look for Matt, but none of it was enough to put a warrant out for his arrest either.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
So how could they prove it? Well, investigators had at least one idea. While questioning Matt for a second time on February 7th, detectives tested his hands for gunpowder residue, and the results came back positive. Matt didn't have a history of owning guns, and no one police spoke with had any knowledge of him using or trying to get access to a gun. Feels like a slam dunk, right? Wrong.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Impending divorce was actually the topic of conversation that very day as Gwen arrived at the Royal St. George apartment complex and approached unit 8312 where she lived alone, talking to Christina along the way.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
To investigator Frazier and Detective Sam, gunshot residue testing is considered unreliable. with experts claiming that there can be other factors at play that can cause inaccurate results. It's not the type of testing that holds up in court. But what does have a better chance of holding up in court?
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Matt had consented to DNA swabs when he was first questioned, and detectives found that it matched DNA on the sweater investigators believed the attacker likely yanked off as Gwen was trying to get away. But knowing that Gwen and Matt had been together recently and that he had spent time at the apartment... The presence of his DNA ended up being a moot point.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
So, investigators turned their sights to the cigarette butts found just outside Gwen's door. Matt's story was that he wasn't anywhere near Gwen's apartment when she was killed. If a still-burning cigarette had his DNA on it, it would prove that he was lying and would put him at her apartment at the time she was killed.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
This seemed to be kind of their last hope in the way of physical evidence, but they were feeling good about it. I mean, even the brand Marlboro Menthol was the same type that Matt was known to smoke. Hopes had to have been soaring when they got the results back. The extinguished cigarette on the ground? Yep, that matched Matt's DNA. But here's your warning.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
The higher you let your hopes go, the harder it hurts when they come crashing down. That other smoldering cigarette had a single source DNA from an unknown male. Detectives didn't know what to think or what this might mean. Was it possible that Matt had an accomplice or could this have been a murder for hire? Matt didn't offer up any names of any people he thought might be responsible.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
And outside of Matt, Gwen's loved ones couldn't come up with anyone else who they thought would want to hurt her.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Investigators confronted Matt with the fact that his DNA was found on Gwen's sweater and the one cigarette butt found on the ground outside. And even though it wasn't the thing that was going to do him in, surely at this point it was enough to make him realize that he was police's prime suspect.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Detectives said he denied it all and became agitated, ultimately leaving the West Palm Beach police station never to return again.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Despite the circumstantial evidence pointing to Matt, detectives had hit a dead end. Throughout the following years, they continued to investigate Matt and his associates to see if they could find the person whose DNA was on that smoking cigarette butt. While it's clear police had Matt Square in their sights, I don't want you to get the impression that they didn't run down other possibilities too.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
I mean, they spoke with Gwen's co-workers. They looked into the possibility of surveillance footage. They canvassed Gwen's apartment complex. One tip even took them all the way to Jamaica in pursuit of a teenager, this neighbor who'd apparently moved abruptly after Gwen's murder. But investigator Frazier told us that turned out to be nothing. Evidently, he'd come to the U.S.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
to live with his brother and simply missed home and wanted to go back.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
It was a name no one recognized, Richard Engle. His DNA was put into CODIS about a decade after Gwen's murder when he was arrested on federal fraud charges. But according to Investigator Frazier, he did also have a violent history, arrests from 2001, including for domestic battery and domestic aggravated assault with a firearm.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Richard was serving his time in a South Carolina prison on those other federal fraud charges. So in 2013, Detective Sam and Investigator Frazier traveled out of state to meet with him. At first, it sounds like he assumed the detectives were there for something related to the fraud stuff. But they cleared up their reason for being there pretty quickly.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Our reporting team obtained audio from the detectives meeting with Richard that you'll hear throughout this section.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
And then their conversation came to a sudden and chilling halt.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Detectives proceeded to show Richard pictures of Gwen's apartment. And while he claimed he didn't recall ever being there, he did mention that he had lived close by and used to deliver pizzas in that area, but that all those apartment complexes looked the same to him. Richard also said that he wasn't a smoker back in 2003, said he didn't pick up the habit until later.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
But even then, investigator Frazier posed a hypothetical. Well, if you were gonna smoke, what type would you go for? Next, they showed Richard a photo lineup of some men, including Matt, and asked him if he recognized any of them. Richard said no. He denied knowing Matt or Gwen when they showed him pictures, said they didn't even look familiar.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
So they moved on to the most damning piece of evidence they had, the reason they were there in the first place.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Okay. It's you. But back in the interrogation room in 2013, Richard wasn't giving in. He didn't even seem to try and come up with a reasonable explanation as to why his DNA would have been at the scene. He was more so denying the science, adamant he was never there.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Now detectives had a new theory, that Matt Greenblatt and Richard Engel worked together. And they had a hunch as to how it may have played out.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
They confronted Richard, but he continued to deny it all.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
The investigators left Richard in prison that day, convinced he wasn't telling them the truth. So then a new effort began, trying to find a connection between Richard and Matt to bolster their theory that they were accomplices. But spoiler alert, we're over a decade out now from that confrontation in that South Carolina prison, and that has proved to be difficult.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
But chatting on her cell while walking up to her apartment in sunny South Florida during broad daylight, Gwen couldn't have sensed that her life was in danger. And even the friend on the other end of the line had no way of stopping the evil that was lurking just behind Gwen's front door. I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
No phone records revealed any communication between the two, and financial accounts disclosed no payments from Matt to Richard. Detectives couldn't find any witnesses who could say that the two had ever had any contact with each other either.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
It sounds like the prevailing assumption was that the two would have just been casual acquaintances, like maybe they met somehow, somewhere, and then Matt hired Richard to help him commit the murder. Outside of the fact that Richard lived nearby at the time, investigators tried to pinpoint other commonalities between them. And they had some loose ideas as to where they could have crossed paths.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
They also looked into the idea that Richard really could have just been at the scene because he was delivering a pizza. Although, at the end of the day, he'd still been steadfast that he'd never been to Gwen's apartment. But employment history showed that the last time he worked for a pizza place was fall of 2002, at least a couple of months before the murder.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
And if you can recall, Gwen's neighbors really hadn't been around at the time of the murder. I mean, no one investigators ever interviewed thought that they even ordered a pizza that day. So, so far, investigators haven't been able to find any evidence from inside Gwen's apartment that is also a match for Richard's DNA.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Though, as technology improves, they do plan to continue retesting items to see if anything new pops up. Investigators have also kept tabs on Matt. In 2015, Detective Sam traveled out west to take another crack at talking to him.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Towards the end of their conversation, Matt shut down and said if they had any more questions, they could talk to his lawyer. In Detective Sam's opinion, Matt came across as a liar because he was contradicting things he'd originally told investigators, as well as things other reliable witnesses had told them. When asked about Engle, Detective Sam told us that Matt appeared unfazed.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
And that's where investigators need your help to step in. Is there anyone out there with information that can help detectives establish a connection between Matt Greenblatt and Richard Engle? Our reporter Madison tried reaching both of them, hoping to push them on this subject. But as of this recording, neither of them have gotten back to her.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Gwen's brother Chad thinks that Matt holds the answers he's looking for.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Christina wasn't making empty threats. Hearing nothing on the other end of the line, she immediately called 911 and gave them Gwen's address as she waited by the phone at home some 30 to 40 minutes away for an update. But the waiting was torture.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Knowing first responders were on their way, Christina called their other friend, Sarah, who lived even closer and asked her to go to Gwen's and find out what was going on. Here's Sarah.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
As you probably know, we wouldn't be here if Gwen had just suffered an accidental fall down her apartment building stairs. And that much was clear to the trained eyes of the West Palm Beach police. As soon as they arrived and found Gwen, they knew that she had actually been shot. Here's the detective on the case today, Aaron Sam, describing how and where in the apartment they found Gwen.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Assassinated. That was investigator William Frazier interjecting there. He's currently with the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office, but he used to work closely with Detective Sam on Gwen's case. There was no sign that Gwen had been sexually assaulted, and nothing appeared to have been taken from her apartment. So whoever had shot Gwen, it appeared their sole goal was to take her out.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Our card this week is Gwendolyn Greenblatt, the Six of Diamonds from Florida. If you've ever been alone and felt like you may be in trouble, maybe you called someone, made it known that you were on the phone, made it clear that someone else was listening.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
And by the looks of it, she was chased down and cornered at the back of her apartment with nowhere else to go when they did it.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
The shooting took place in the back closet where Gwen was found. She had dropped her cell phone right at the front door, and that might explain why Christina didn't hear anything else but the dog barking. That dog was Gwen's Jack Russell Terrier, Shaquille, who police found unharmed wandering the apartment with his leash on.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Detectives surmised that Gwen likely put his leash on right as she got home, in the few moments she had before she was ambushed, which tells her friends something important. That dog was likely familiar with whoever had been laying in wait for Gwen.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Very protective dog. The only thing in the way of evidence they found around Gwen in the closet were bullet casings from a .380. While the proverbial smoking gun itself wasn't left behind, there was another piece of evidence outside the apartment that was still letting off smoke. Literally.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
The cigarette butt was found directly outside of Gwen's door on top of a box that housed a fire alarm pole. There were only three other apartments on that floor and no one else seemed to be around at that time of the murder.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
So combine that with the fact that most residents appeared to smoke on their balconies, not the outside area where this butt was located, this made it seem like it very well could have belonged to their killer. And there was one additional cigarette butt on the ground below this one that was collected too.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
That one was extinguished when it was discovered, but from what detectives could tell, it still looked to be pretty fresh. So while the police response was fast enough to catch the smoking cigarette before it burnt out, sadly, no one could have responded fast enough to save Gwen. She died from the direct shots to her head pretty shortly after she was transported to the hospital.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
The news of her death was a blow to her friends, Sarah and Christina, who had been praying that she would pull through. Ever since Sarah had arrived at the crime scene, both women had been trying to get in touch with Gwen's loved ones.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
One way or another, Gwen's family, back in her home state of Pennsylvania, did get word of what was happening, and immediately they made their way down to South Florida. Gwen's only, quote, family in the immediate area was her husband of about five years who she was separated from, Matthew Greenblatt, who went by Matt.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Now, they'd been living apart for a few years, but according to those we spoke to, Gwen had wanted to work things out and try and stay married. Matt, on the other hand, appeared to have different plans. He seemed to be leading her on, keeping her close by with no intention of actually recommitting to her.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
But Sarah told us that his controlling, game-playing behavior seemed to have been pushing Gwen to a breaking point. And just the day before her murder, Gwen told Sarah that she was going to do something about it.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
It's a bit unclear who ended up reaching Matt to notify him about the incident. But Gwen's friends estimate that sometime within about two hours or so of the shooting, Matt showed up at the hospital seemingly oblivious as to what was going on. Investigators were already clued in on the couple's tumultuous relationship by that point.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
So they were curious to see how Matt would respond when they broke the news to him that Gwen had been murdered.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
It was close to 3.30 in the afternoon on Wednesday, February 5th, 2003, when a woman named Christina was talking on the phone with her friend, 35-year-old Gwendolyn Greenblatt. The two were catching up as Gwen was in the car making the about 20-minute drive home to West Palm Beach from her job as a massage therapist at the luxurious Breakers Resort in Palm Beach.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Detectives have never been able to speak to anyone who could vouch for Matt's whereabouts during the time Gwen was killed. And at least some versions of his story were simply unverifiable. He told police he was getting a haircut, but when they checked the books at the place he mentioned, there was no record of him signing in.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
He also told police he went to Hungry Howie's to pick up some food, but they couldn't verify that either.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Florida. Authorities were able to execute a search warrant at Matt's place within the first week, but nothing connecting him to the crime was discovered. But nothing not connecting him to the crime was either. Like his phone activity, for example. When investigators analyzed his phone and computer data, it revealed Matt was on them pretty consistently.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Except, interestingly, for a window right around the time of the homicide when there was a stark period of inactivity. Through his electronics, detectives said that they discovered Matt was having multiple affairs with exotic dancers, something he wasn't open about when they first asked him about the state of his marriage. And not all of these affairs were casual hookups either.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Matt seemed to be someone who was living completely separate lives, having ongoing relationships with at least four other women. Detectives had discussions with several of them, all of whom declared they had no idea that they'd been dating a married man. Married, but separated, but married nonetheless.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
And while they all painted a pretty bad picture of Matt, describing him as emotionally abusive, controlling, jealous, even keeping constant tabs on them, none of them claimed to have any insight into the murder of his wife. The more detectives learned about Matt and Gwen's relationship, the more suspicious they became.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Gwen's younger brother, Chad, was aware of the troubles in his sister's marriage almost from the get-go.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
While her family heard about Gwen's difficulties with Matt over the phone and through sporadic visits, Gwen's Florida friends had a front row seat to the drama that ensued. Despite all the affairs, it seemed like Matt still wanted to keep Gwen on his roster. Now, she wasn't allowed to move on, but he had free reign to do whatever he wanted.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Christina and Gwen had met through their jobs at the spa, but had become increasingly close as both women's marriages unraveled. Here's Christina.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
And his own key to get in and out of her apartment when he wanted.
The Deck
Gwendel Greenblatt (6 of Diamonds, Florida)
Even though they were separated, investigators told us Gwen and Matt were still seeing each other sometimes. Matt himself told them that they'd been intimate just a few days before the homicide. Though apparently, that last part comes only from Matt. But as you heard Sarah say before, any ambivalence Gwen had been feeling about Matt and the marriage seemed to be over. Gwen was adamant with Sarah.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
This second skull was reported to police in October of 2024 after a man's dog sniffed it out in the woods behind his house. And this one was even closer to Bessie's house than the last one. Investigators processed the scene and sent out a team of officers, volunteers, and cadaver dogs to search the wooded area around the property. But once again, there were no other skeletal remains found.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
As of this recording, the state medical examiner's office is still analyzing that skull. But Sergeant Weir said that it's not looking promising.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Jeff had long struggled with a substance use disorder, and after a recent relapse, his wife Stephanie began pulling away. So Jeff had to move back in with his mom, and it seemed like he was in a downward spiral. The two began arguing a lot about Jeff's drug use, and leading up to their final argument, Jeff had been posting about his personal struggles to Facebook.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
If you're thinking, it's bizarre that two super old skulls popped up within a mile of each other in the span of two years, you're not alone.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Unfortunately, until they get the determination back on the second skull, there is not much more investigators can do.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Some detectives still think it's possible that Jeff died by suicide or an overdose, and they just haven't found his remains yet. They emphasize that the area he lived in was surrounded by swamps and thick woods, which haven't really been officially searched. And that could be part of the reason he hasn't been found.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Jeff's wife, Stephanie, seems to think that this is the most likely scenario as well. But nobody really has a theory as to how. Little Joe, on the other hand, feels certain that his brother is still alive somewhere.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Little Joe is constantly checking social media and browsing the internet for any signs of his brother. So far, he says he hasn't seen anything, but he's always coming up with new theories about what could have happened that day in July. His current theory is that Jeff is alive somewhere, using Little Joe's ID to get around.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
This theory stems from the fact that several months before Jeff went missing, someone stole the West family's safe, which, among other things, held Little Joe's birth certificate and social security card. And this safe was the only thing missing in the entire house.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Little Joe actually confronted Jeff about this when it happened. And when Jeff denied it, they got into a small fight. Now, detectives say that they have yet to hear this theory from Little Joe. He hasn't reported it to any law enforcement agencies. So as of this recording, they haven't done a credit check or anything to confirm or deny it. But Little Joe still sees it as a possibility.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Now, I want to note here for anyone wondering that detectives did interview family about little Joe during the investigation and determined that while he and Jeff definitely disagreed sometimes, he didn't seem to have anything to do with his disappearance. He just wants answers.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Sergeant Weir feels the same way. It's one of the reasons that he wanted to work with us.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
If you know anything about the mysterious disappearance of Jefferson Jeff West from Bay St. Louis, Mississippi in July of 2018, we urge you to call Detective Sergeant Dustin Weir at 228-466-5474. Or if you prefer to remain anonymous, you can call Mississippi Coast Crime Stoppers at 877-787-5898. The Deck is an Audiochuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Four days before Jeff allegedly walked off into the woods, he reposted a message from an account called Depression Quotes. It read, Nobody will ever text me and say how much they miss me. I'm not worth missing. But Jeff was wrong. Bessie did miss her son. When a day went by and Jeff didn't show back up at the house, she immediately went to the police.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
And around that time, she actually commented on Jeff's post, saying, quote, You worth more than you will ever know. Love you, son. Please come home. God, please watch over my son. End quote. Here's Detective Sergeant Dustin Weir with the Bay St. Louis Police Department, who is working the case today.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Jeff's older brother, who goes by Little Joe, who we also spoke to, said that he could see the toll the separation was taking on Jeff in the weeks leading up to his disappearance.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Little Joe says he remembers the last time he saw Jeff very clearly. He remembered him standing outside in the backyard after his argument with Bessie. At the time, because Jeff disappeared so quickly, Little Joe assumed that he'd gotten into a car with someone. This is actually detectives' working theory as well.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
They told us that Bessie's original statement was sort of misconstrued when it was originally taken down. What she likely said was that Jeff could have gone into the woods, but he just disappeared so fast she didn't know what had happened. He didn't even take anything with him.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Could this have been a suicide? It's a mystery that has stumped detectives and devastated Jeff's family. But they all agree, someone out there knows something I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck. On July 3rd, 2018, Bessie West went to the Bay St. Louis police in Mississippi to file a missing persons report for her son, Jeff.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Stephanie was referring to the Bay St. Louis Bridge, which is about three miles from Bessie's house. Detectives also heard from another friend that Jeff was supposedly under a bridge. But this friend added that he thought Jeff was there experiencing suicidal thoughts.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
According to detectives, there was simply no physical evidence to suggest that Jeff was or ever had been under Bay Bridge after he disappeared. If this was a suicide or even an accident of some kind, they would have expected to find a body, but there was truly nothing. As for the woods by Bessie's house, it seems like they were sort of neglected amid all the searching of bridges and beaches.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Our reporters actually visited those woods and confirmed that they are both vast and dense. And because most tips pointed towards Jeff being somewhere else, investigators seem to think that searching them wouldn't be a productive use of time. Now, Jeff did have a car, but he didn't leave in it.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Our card this week is Jefferson Jeff West, the King of Diamonds from Mississippi. It was July 2nd, 2018, when Jeff seemingly vanished into thin air outside of his mom's home in Bay St. Louis, Mississippi. And when locals caught wind of the disappearance, rumors started flying. Did the 46-year-old change his identity and start a new life somewhere else? Could he have been targeted by a gang?
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
So if he had gone to the Bay Bridge on the 2nd and somehow not left a trace, he either got a ride or walked over an hour by foot to get there. And he wouldn't have done it all without his phone, which detectives found lying outside of Bessie's house, as if it had just been dropped there.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Also, this phone was a pay-as-you-go phone, which didn't back up anywhere. So even if it hadn't been destroyed by the rain, investigators wouldn't have been able to pull much from it anyways. Still, the fact that Jeff left his phone behind along with all of his other belongings seemed to suggest that he wasn't planning on being gone very long.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
But then again, from Bessie's story, it didn't seem like Jeff had planned to be gone at all. It seemed much more like he had darted off in the heat of a moment. So why wasn't he turning back up? It was lost on everyone.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
That point came even sooner for Little Joe. He remembers telling his mom that he didn't think Jeff was going to come back. After Jeff disappeared, Little Joe was out on the streets talking to everyone he could to try and figure out where his brother was. Now, Little Joe and Jeff had their ups and downs, as all siblings do, but they were still brothers.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
A handful of the people that Little Joe spoke with seemed to believe that Jeff's disappearance had something to do with a certain local gang. Now, this gang was identified by Sergeant Weir as the Simon City Royals, a group with a history of violent criminal activity and quite a few members in the area.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
According to Little Joe, a lot of talk about what happened to Jeff revolved around this gang. His thinking was that maybe Jeff tried to become a member. And during the initiation process, which essentially entails a severe beating by existing members, things went too far.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Now, Jeff never explicitly told anyone in his family that he was involved with the Simon City Royals. But after hearing enough of these rumors in the neighborhood, they couldn't help but wonder if there was some truth to them. So they brought it up to the police. Sergeant Weir told us that in Bay St.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Louis at the time, it wasn't uncommon for someone who was using drugs to get mixed up with the Simon City Royals.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Detectives actually told us that they've heard of the Simon City Royals members going missing from neighboring counties before. So they followed up on this tip as best they could, but they had their work cut out for them. Getting gang members to talk openly with law enforcement is difficult, as is getting outsiders to cooperate due to their fear of retaliation.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
But on July 17th, Bessie told investigators about a call she got from a friend that would make things a bit easier.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Detectives said that this person, who we'll call Carter, was a, quote, super high-ranking member of the Simon City Royals and known for stonewalling police. So they knew he wouldn't give them anything without proof, which, of course, they didn't have.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Still, they tried to locate him and put out bulletins for him that said, wanted for questioning, but they never found him and he never showed up at the police department. Investigators also pulled phone records for a number that they suspected belonged to Carter, but there didn't appear to be any activity on it.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
So investigators decided to change course. But there wasn't another obvious direction to take things. According to Sergeant Weir, there was zero physical evidence in the case and barely any tips either, aside from the rumors that Jeff's family was passing along.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
The case stayed that way for about three years. But then in 2022, two things happened. First, Carter was part of a massive indictment of over 20 Mississippi gang members on RICO charges, which are levied when someone's accused of being part of a group committing multiple crimes like fraud or violence as a part of a bigger illegal operation.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
And some of the charges stemmed from incidents Carter was involved in in July of 2018, right around the time that Jeff went missing. These charges included the sales of both heroin and a stolen gun, though there was no mention of Jeff in the charging documents. Carter was charged again and pled guilty to similar charges in 2023, for which he was sentenced to 20 years in prison.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
She told police that just the day before, the two of them had gotten into an argument and she thought Jeff had walked off into the woods surrounding her house. Now, typically, this wouldn't have been cause for alarm. Jeff liked to clear his mind in the woods. They were sort of an escape for him. But Jeff hadn't really been himself lately.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
And the second thing that happens, Bay St. Louis police got a 911 call from some people hiking in the woods. They said that they'd found a human skull in their path. When the operator asked for their location, they gave an address on Washington Street, which is the same street that Bessie lived on. The location of the skull was no more than half a mile from her house.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
When investigators sent the skull to the state medical examiner's office, it was determined to be, and this is a direct quote from Sergeant Weir, just a very, very, very old, very old skull. I mean, the medical examiner actually seemed to think that it was archaeological. Now, what an archaeological skull was doing in the woods, detectives had no idea.
The Deck
Jefferson West (King of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Typically, experts deem something archaeological when it is believed to be over 100 years old. So the one thing police did know was that that skull did not belong to Jeff West. And the only thing stranger than finding this skull in the woods was finding yet another skull on the very same street just two years later.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Detectives followed other leads, too, including a possible connection between Marshall and a wealthy Odessa businessman named B.L. King, who owned several nightclubs. That name stands out to Detective Gonzalez because he was actually murdered in Odessa in 1996. And his murder is also unsolved.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
And as Pedro prepared his own dinner, one of his many roommates, 25-year-old Augustine Chacon, joined him and began chopping potatoes. But the quiet of their ordinary night was shattered out of nowhere when the front door to the little one-story house swung open and a short man with a slight build appeared in the doorway.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
His case is on a deck, along with a woman who worked as a dancer at one of King's clubs and who was also murdered. We covered the case of that woman already, actually, Eula K. Miller, in another episode, which I'll link to in the show notes. But long story short, despite these extensive witness interviews and the many possible suspects, police have never been able to identify Marshall's murderer.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
But Detective Gonzalez believes that his death was likely tied to drugs.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
So this made the murder of Augustine, who had no known history of drug use, all the more puzzling and challenging for police to solve. Detective Gonzalez says that his murder seems like it was possibly a random attack. But again, with so few details about his life, it's been hard to develop a real solid theory.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
While the initial investigation into Augustine's murder was flawed, Odessa police did attempt to chase down the few leads that they did have. Remember, Augustine was still alive when he was taken to the hospital the night of the shooting, and police learned that he might have left them with one clue.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Apparently, before he died, he had mustered the strength to speak just a few words, and he told a nurse that he knew he was going to die and that he had been robbed. Now, this information gave detectives at least some indication of what the motive was for Augustine's shooting.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
And one of Augustine's roommates did mention when police re-interviewed him that Augustine had money on him the night he was shot from selling a Mustang a few days before. He thought Augustine had sold the car in Littlefield or maybe Brownfield, Texas, but he didn't know how much he got for it. Now, this was the first time detectives heard about this car, but not the last.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Another roommate also told police that Augustine might have recently sold a car in Brownsville and that he may have had money on him from that sale. But when they looked at Augustine's wallet, what they found confused them a little.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
His face was covered with some kind of orange fabric as he raised the gun he held in his right hand. Pedro thought that he saw another man standing behind him, but he couldn't be sure. And Pedro heard the gunman shout, don't move, in Spanish. And he watched as Augustine, still holding the kitchen knife, turned around and then gunshots rang out.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Could Augustine's sale of the Mustang have been connected to his murder? It certainly seemed like a lead that was worth tracking down. But if detectives ever located the buyer, it's not noted in the file. And the other items in his wallet just seemed to support his roommate's description of Augustine as a hard worker. The court summons was just for a traffic ticket.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
And that other social security card turned out to be for Augustine's wife, Lupe, who was believed to be living in Mexico with their four daughters. The report Detective Gonzalez has doesn't say when investigators first talked to Lupe, but it does note that on March 6th, which is three days after the shooting, police received a call from her with another possible lead.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Lupe called back the next week, urging investigators to speak to two other men Augustine apparently knew, named Julio and Gustavo. She told police that they had maybe been involved in some other crimes in Odessa, but there's nothing else in the file about them.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Now Lupe also passed along a rumor that she'd heard about a poker game that might have been going on in the house that night before Augustine was shot. If this is true, it would mean that the roommates police did talk to who all had the same story weren't truthful because they never mentioned a game. It's a possibility Detective Gonzalez has to consider.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Investigators did apparently look into a tip that came in from another one of Augustine's roommates about a beef he might have had with a man named Guillermo. From the notes, it seems like Guillermo might have owed Augustine gas money for rides to work. And when interviewed, Guillermo said that he'd been playing pool at a local bar the night of the shooting with a friend.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
And when they talked to that friend, he confirmed Guillermo's alibi. So that's where their investigation into him ended. Now, it seems at that point, investigators went back to Pedro, the roommate who was with Augustine in the kitchen when he was shot. And they told him basically, listen, if you didn't really tell the truth before, maybe if you were scared or something, we can protect you.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
But he didn't change his story. And so that is where the investigation stopped. When Detective Gonzalez took over the cold case unit in August of 2021, that is all she found on Augustine's case. No follow-ups, no other leads to chase down. So she got to work. She sent the bullet and fingernail scrapings collected from Augustine at his autopsy out to the lab to be tested.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Everything suddenly went dark and someone had cut the lights. Pedro ran as a couple more gunshots were fired. He made it to the living room where some of the men slept and dove behind a bed for cover. He saw Augustine stagger from the kitchen to the bedroom and collapse on the floor.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
She pulled all other evidence to be photographed to create a better record of the case. Though the one thing she couldn't find was the window screen that investigators supposedly took into evidence. She found a few things that weren't noted in the original file, too.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
a citation from a minor car accident, and a small handwritten receipt from Giles Motors in Littlefield, Texas, indicating that Augustine was making his last few payments on a 1973 Mustang. But what surprised Detective Gonzalez the most was the size of the file.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
In her office, she has massive filing cabinets filled with folders for each case that she's trying to solve, and Augustine's is one of the smallest. When our reporter sat down with her, she placed the file for Augustine's case next to the file for Marshall's to show, like, literally the stark contrast. And Augustine's is less than a quarter of the size of Marshall's.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
The folder practically looks empty in comparison.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
She says Marshall's case may have gotten more resources simply because there were more leads right off the bat.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
She gave us a little insight into another reason the investigation into Augustine's death might have been so small. Odessa in the 80s was packed with men working temporary jobs in the oil fields, and the area catered to that demographic and at times suffered as a result.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
In the chaotic aftermath of the shooting, one of the roommates turned the lights back on and someone managed to call police to report a person shot at 1319 East 4th Street. That call came into the Odessa Police Department at 9.37 p.m.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
So far, Detective Gonzalez has only been able to track down one of Augustine's roommates, Eugenio, who spoke with her at the Odessa Police Department. He said that he wasn't home when the shooting happened, but he had seen Augustine at home not long before.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Detective Gonzalez also recently connected with one of Augustine's daughters, Socorro. Socorro was only three years old when her dad was killed, so anything she knows about him or his life in Odessa or even his murder is all secondhand. But she told the detective that there was a woman named Bertha who Augustine was close with when he lived there.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Detective Gonzalez hasn't been able to track Bertha down simply because she has so little information about her. And she hasn't found any record of anyone by that name being murdered in Odessa either. So she thinks that Bertha may have been a nickname, or maybe the murder took place somewhere else, or maybe she's a missing person who no one reported missing, or maybe Socorro was mistaken.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
When first responders arrived at the house just minutes later, they found Augustine lying face up, bleeding from his chest and his right leg and fading in and out of consciousness. As medics got to work trying to save him, the responding officers assessed the scene. Such crowded housing setups were known as man camps.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Without more information, though, there's not much she can do to look into that potential part of Augustine's life. She's not sure if Socorro has any more information about Bertha, and she hasn't been able to get in touch with her again to even ask. Since Lupe had given the tip about the poker game happening the night Augustine was shot, Detective Gonzalez hoped to speak with her.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
She thought Lupe was living in Mexico, but Socorro told her that Lupe came back to Littlefield, Texas often to visit family and would be in touch to discuss the case. But as of our recording this episode, that still hasn't happened.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Detective Gonzalez wants people to know that they can feel safe coming to her with information. And if they want an extra layer of protection, there is an anonymous tip line that we'll give at the end.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
She also wants people to feel comfortable coming forward in Marshall's case as well.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
She's going to need your help to do that. Detective Gonzalez said that unfortunately, she's never had the chance to talk to most of the suspects herself, and she never will because many of them have passed away. She said it's going to take new information from a witness to move this case forward. Marshall's cousin Scott also holds out hope for an answer.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Scott told us about what he remembers about Marshall's murder and how it impacted his family, especially his Aunt Wilma, who was Marshall's mom.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Scott, like Detective Gonzalez, pleads with anyone listening to please call if you know anything about Marshall's murder.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
As for Augustine's case, Detective Gonzalez is still hopeful that someone will put her in touch with his family members and roommates or even people who knew him when he was living in Odessa. She asked if we could list the names of people that she's hoping to interview to learn more about Augustine's life.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
They were a common arrangement for Odessa oil field workers who often came into town for only a few months and without their families. The lead investigator on this case, Detective Lauren Gonzalez, says that seems like what this house was. And most of the men living there had moved to town for work from Mexico or somewhere else in West Texas.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
So if you or anyone you know are connected to any of those people who were living in Odessa in 1982, please reach out. And if you know anything at all about the murders of Augustine Chacon or Marshall McCarthy in Odessa in 1982, contact Detective Lauren Gonzalez at 432-335-4926. Or you can remain completely anonymous by contacting the Odessa Crime Stoppers. Their number is 432-333-8477.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
The Deck is an AudioChuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis. To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
So many people in one house meant that there were a lot of potential witnesses. Records show at least 10 other men were there. And this could have been a goldmine for investigators in terms of collecting eyewitness testimony. But there was one small problem. All of the men in the house spoke only Spanish, and the officers apparently didn't speak any.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
The officers needed a translator, but instead of calling in a professional, investigators turned to a bilingual neighbor to assist them. Detective Gonzalez found a record of this investigative mistake in the case file. Apparently, the neighbor told these guys that if they weren't in the house or near the house when Augustine was shot, they should just leave.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Though their paths may have never crossed in life, their deaths have been forever linked by proximity and the nearly 43-year pursuit of justice for them both. But as the Odessa detective on the case told us, Augustine's case grew cold because there were so few suspects, while Marshall's has never been solved because there are just too many. And that's where you can come in.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
The neighbor told people only to stay if they knew something about the shooting. It wasn't even clear how many people there were at first. The file says between 10 and 15, but after the neighbor delivered that message, only eight people hung around. This means that between two and maybe even seven witnesses who were at the scene of this shooting just left without talking to police.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
And that was just the first of multiple problems that would stymie the investigation. Other mistakes happened as officers began collecting physical evidence from inside and outside the home and analyzing the crime scene after Augustine rushed off to the hospital.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Officers searched the house for shell casings or possible bullet holes, and they found a dent and a scrape on the refrigerator door that appeared to have been caused by a small object, like maybe a bullet. They also looked closely at two windows above the kitchen sink and found two bullet holes in one of the window screens with powder burns and residue around them.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Now, they tried to measure out the trajectory of those bullets, and it seemed like maybe one hit the fridge after being fired from outside through the window.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Detective Lauren Gonzalez, who leads this case today, said that officers checked the house for shell casings, but they didn't find a single one, meaning someone either picked them up before police arrived or Augustine was shot with a revolver that doesn't expel casings. Though, one officer did find a bullet fragment on the floor near the door between the bedroom and the living room.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
The evidence of bullets coming through the window screen and striking the refrigerator suggested that in addition to the shots fired inside the kitchen, someone had fired at least two bullets from outside. Since no one reported hearing a gunshot before the gunman came in, those shots were most likely fired after he or they left the house.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
The original case file shows that investigators made notes of how they tried to track the trajectory of these bullets, and they also made a sketch of the crime scene. But other than that, it seems like the responding officers didn't do much to actually document the scene. Here's Detective Gonzalez.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Our cards this week are Augustine Chacon, the King of Clubs from Texas, and Marshall McCarthy, the Five of Hearts from Texas. On the same evening in March 1982, in the same Odessa, Texas neighborhood, two men living very different lives were shot dead inside their homes just a half mile apart.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
That means they didn't take a single photo of the room where Augustine was shot or of where they found him laying injured.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Detective Gonzalez says Odessa was short on seasoned detectives in the 1980s, and she believes that it's possible that some of the officers who responded to the shooting were rookies who may not have known how best to process the scene, which would have included taking pictures of what had just become a murder scene.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
So at 11.10 p.m., less than two hours after he'd been shot, Augustine was pronounced dead at the hospital. This was now a homicide and an investigation that was off to a bad start. And things were about to get worse as investigators, already scarce on resources, were stretched even thinner.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
And that's because only 20 minutes after Augustine died, another call came into dispatch from a man named Carl who lived in the same neighborhood where Augustine had been shot. He called to report that his roommate, a 37-year-old man named Marshall, had been shot inside their home as well.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck. At around 9.30 p.m. on March 3rd, a man named Pedro was cooking in the kitchen of the cramped one-bedroom house in West Texas that he shared with a dozen other men who all seemed to be in town for work in the Odessa oil fields. The crowded quarters meant that the men had to take turns cooking.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
When police cars pulled up to 1513 East 5th Street around 11.30 p.m., they were met by two men who frantically flagged them down and led them to apartment four. Just inside, Marshall McCarthy was lying on the floor just like Augustine had been. But Marshall wasn't drifting in and out of consciousness like Augustine was. He was already gone.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Marshall was found wearing jeans and boots, but no shirt. And he had a blue towel draped around his neck and an orange, white, and yellow towel in his hand, almost like he'd been interrupted while getting ready. On the floor next to his body was a silky textured jacket. He was wearing expensive jewelry and his wallet with cash inside was still on him.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
So robbery didn't seem like a motive at first glance. Odessa police now had two men shot to death inside their homes on the same night, half a mile apart. But while the two crimes had certain obvious similarities, the differences in the victimology quickly emerged.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
For starters, the little information officers had learned about Augustine from his roommate suggested that he was a hardworking family man who didn't use drugs and had no criminal history. An autopsy performed on him the day after his death found no drugs or alcohol in his system.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Marshall, on the other hand, had quite a different lifestyle, and his autopsy confirmed that he had cocaine in his system when he died, according to a toxicology report. Marshall's cousin Scott told our reporters that his cousin lived a life that involved a lot of partying.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
They didn't see each other much because until recently, Marshall lived 500 miles away in Houston. He'd gotten into some trouble there, so his family thought it would be a good idea for him to go live with his aunt and uncle, Scott's parents, in Odessa. And he'd made the move only a year or two before the shooting. Scott had seen him only a bit more often after that.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
And apparently, Marshall had fallen in with a bad crowd in Odessa too, based on what detectives found in his apartment.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Carl and his other associates all spoke English, so language wasn't a barrier in this case. And maybe that's why detectives at the time were seemingly able to learn a lot more about him. And they confirmed pretty quickly that Marshall was likely a drug dealer.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
In fact, they found out that it was basically common knowledge around Odessa that Marshall almost always had cocaine on him and was usually selling it. As the parallel investigations into Augustine and Marshall's murders unfolded, the similarities and differences continued to appear. At Augustine's autopsy, they were able to recover an intact bullet from his chest.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
But for some reason, they didn't establish what caliber the bullet was, only that it was small. In addition to gunshot wounds to his chest and leg, the autopsy also revealed that Augustine had an injury and powder burns on his hand, as though he probably attempted to grab the gun as it was fired.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
An autopsy performed on Marshall found that he had multiple gunshot wounds, though Detective Gonzalez wants to keep the specifics of where on his body he was shot close to the vest. So all they knew was that both men had been shot multiple times with small caliber bullets at close range.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
And one significant difference is that while there were no casings collected from Augustine's home, there were three at Marshall's. They found two under his body and one on the coffee table. Detective Gonzalez says that there's nothing in the case file to show any indication that the bullets that hit these two men came from the same weapon.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
In fact, she doesn't believe that the murders were actually related at all, meaning there were two shooters in the same neighborhood that night. But trying to find out who those shooters were went very different in these two investigations due to another big difference in the cases, the number of possible suspects.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Augustine's roommates had told police that they didn't know anyone who might have wanted to hurt him. In Marshall's case, officers quickly had a list of people that they wanted to know more about. There was Marshall's roommate, Carl, who had found him and called the police. Except officers learned that he hadn't called the police right away.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
There was also Carl's former brother-in-law, Eddie, who told police that he and his wife, Carolyn, had been over at Marshall's apartment the night of the shooting and that everything had been fine when they left somewhere between 7.45 p.m. and 8 p.m. He told police that he and his wife had each gone to separate friends' houses after that.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
There's no mention in the file of neighbors seeing any other visitors come by later that night, but police talked to Marshall's next-door neighbor and he reported being awakened at like 10 or 10.15 p.m. by the sound of two men and a woman arguing in Marshall's apartment.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
A couple living in the building also mentioned hearing an argument shortly after 10 p.m. So that wasn't the only time police heard about a potential fight. But Detective Gonzalez says there was nothing else in the case file about how police at the time investigated that alleged argument or how they confirmed Eddie and Carolyn's alibis.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Then there was a woman named Toni, who Marshall had been dating. She told police that Marshall had gotten into a fight at a bar a few nights before he died. And she also said Marshall had told her that he had a number of enemies.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
And apparently, this David guy wasn't the only one who had a problem with Marshall. Tony said that the same week he was killed, Marshall had gotten into a heated argument with a guy dressed like a cowboy at a local club called Graham Central Station. They also heard from a different woman, that an Odessa drug dealer named Johnny had killed Marshall.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Officers tracked Johnny down after another witness reported hearing him say something troubling about Marshall.
The Deck
Agustin Chacon (King of Clubs, Texas) & Marshall McCarthy (5 of Hearts, Texas)
Investigators asked him about that comment, and he didn't deny it.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
But what was surprising was the fact that the front door was cracked open. So Penny turned on her phone's flashlight, pushed the door open, and began calling out for George, slowly inching into the house a little to call out a second time when he didn't answer.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
As Asia and George's relatives struggled to come to terms with their deaths, Lindsay clung to life. But tragically, she wouldn't get the one more chance her mom was praying for. She died on January 5th, 2020 in the hospital surrounded by relatives. It was a devastating loss to her family and a real blow to the investigation as well. Here's Detective Snowden again.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
Now working a triple homicide investigation, Detective Snowden wondered if perhaps only one of the victims was the intended target, and maybe the other two were merely collateral damage, which left detectives to speculate about a motive.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
We'll call this person of interest Charlie. He had a criminal history with arrests dating back to 2001. In fact, his nickname was C-Murder. And by all accounts, he knew both Asia and George. Coincidentally, on December 30th, detectives ended up bringing Charlie in on a completely separate charge.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
When she got no response that second time, Penny went back to the corner store hoping that George would just turn up there eventually like they'd planned. But he didn't. In fact, Penny waited outside the store for another handful of hours without word from George. So bracing the storm, she walked back to his house to check one more time.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
So in the process of talking to him for that thing and then connecting the dots, they decided to bring up the triple homicide. And according to Detective Snowden, Charlie just shut down. The little information he did provide in terms of his whereabouts on the date of the murders couldn't be corroborated. And when detectives tried to schedule a follow-up interview, he lawyered up.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
Detectives theorized that there might have been some money owed from George to Charlie, or vice versa, and maybe that could have been the motive. There were also some indications that Asia might have been involved in a relationship with Charlie, which created a rift between the two men, and therefore another potential motive for murder.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
George's brother Jonathan was also suspicious of Charlie, who had apparently lived at the Old Slag Roadhouse with George at some point.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
Jonathan wondered, if Charlie had this attitude towards his own family, what did that mean for a roommate? Detectives went back over their surveillance video hoping to track Charlie's movements. And while there was no visual evidence putting him at the crime scene that night, there was nothing showing him to be anywhere else either.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
But because Charlie lawyered up, there was no way to continue down this line of questioning. Plus, detectives didn't want to get tunnel vision based on rumors.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
Another theory that was spreading on the street at the time revolved around drug dealings and some disgruntled gang members. George's brother had heard the same thing, though he didn't want to talk about this theory in detail out of fear of possible retaliation. And Detective Snowden was familiar with this as well.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
When she stepped into the dark entryway again, she heard what sounded like a very faint moaning sound coming from somewhere inside. She followed the noise, using her phone's flashlight to light her path, through the living room, past the kitchen, toward several bedrooms at the back of the one-story house. When Penny shined her light through one of the doors, she saw blood.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
Today, Detective Snowden estimates that between family members, neighbors, and friends, she's spoken to over 30 people in this case that claim to have second or even third-hand information about who committed these murders. But no one has had any proof.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
She even mentioned that she's recently gotten some tips from the state playing card decks, but those tipsters only gave information that police already heard. Snowden said it has been over four years since she's had a real promising lead in this case.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
What Detective Snowden is really hoping to find is the gun that was used in the murders. If she can tie the projectiles to a specific gun and then trace that gun back to a specific person, that could be enough for probable cause.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
But in the meantime, Detective Snowden wants to go back through the case file again, page by page, to see if there's anything that was initially missed or anyone that should be re-interviewed. She wants her other detectives to get involved too, especially those who weren't with the department in 2019, because they can come at it with fresh eyes.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
And it's not just this triple homicide that she's focusing on.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
But we try. For George, Asia, and Lindsey's families, closure is paramount.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
More and more of it as she panned her light over the bed where she finally saw where all of it was coming from. There was a semi-conscious, fully-clothed woman lying there on the verge of death. Penny could tell that this woman was breathing, but it sounded labored. In the dark, she assumed that the woman had been beaten up.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
You can help bring closure to these families. If you know anything about the triple homicide of George Kirkland, Asia Norman, and Lindsey Foster Herr in Moss Point, Mississippi in December of 2019, we urge you to speak up. You can reach the Moss Point Police Department at 228-475-1711 and ask for investigations. Or, if you prefer to remain anonymous...
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
you can call Mississippi Coast Crime Stoppers at 877-787-5898. The Deck is an Audiochuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis. To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
And when Penny tried to wake the woman and the woman didn't respond, Penny ran to find a nearby friend. The two returned to George's house together, and that's when Penny called 911. Just four minutes later, at 7.10 a.m., Moss Point police officers showed up at the scene.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
While it was now light outside, the house was still dark, so officers had to use flashlights to navigate the house and find the bleeding woman. They also found two additional victims in another bedroom. Here's Detective Kimberly Snowden, the lead detective on the case.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
But in the days after the attack, rumors and conspiracy theories began running wild, creating a tangled web that detectives are still unweaving more than five years later. I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck. Around 1 a.m. on December 22nd, 2019, a woman we'll call Penny walked over to her local corner store in the rain to get some pills from her nephew, George.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
Police immediately recognized the two deceased victims because they both had previous run-ins with the law. One was Penny's nephew, 32-year-old George Kirkland, whose family owned the home. And the second victim was 19-year-old Asia Norman, George's on-again, off-again girlfriend.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
They were found on the floor of the primary bedroom directly across from the room where the still-unknown and still-alive woman was found. Now, police could tell that the unknown woman hadn't been beaten like Penny originally thought. She'd actually been shot a single time in the head. And George and Asia had been shot multiple times, though Detective Snowden didn't want to reveal where.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
She did tell us that from the way George and Asia were positioned, it looked almost like George may have been trying to protect Asia or like she was hiding behind him. The bed in the room was still made, so it didn't seem like the pair had been sleeping at the time of the attack, and George still had on his shoes.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
But it did appear to them that the unknown woman had been sleeping, or was perhaps under the influence of drugs, though that was never proven for sure. When she was transported to the hospital, she was administered drugs in the course of her care, which made doing any kind of drug test or tox screens down the line impossible.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
But tox screens would later reveal that both George and Asia had amphetamine, methamphetamine, and THC in their systems. And that, combined with the fact that the house they were all found in was known for drugs and illegal activity, made the theory that she might have been using, too, a strong possibility.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
She's saying it was an evidentiary nightmare. Though detectives were aware of illicit activities going on in the house, they had never actually responded to any calls there before. There wasn't much furniture inside, but with so many people in and out of the house, there were a lot of personal belongings.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
Our card this week is George Kirkland, Asia Norman, and Lindsey Foster Herr, the two of clubs from Mississippi. When George, Asia, and Lindsey were all murdered on a stormy Mississippi night in 2019, nobody in the area heard or saw anything.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
Detectives actually needed to call in help from another department to just sort through everything and collect the items that seemed most likely to have some kind of relation to the crime. They didn't find any firearms, but they did collect clothing, an LG phone, small amounts of narcotics, bullets, and shell casings.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
Now, the LG phone was found lying on the bed near George and Asia, but it seems like it was a burner phone. Detectives weren't able to determine who it belonged to or pull anything useful from it. The projectiles they found were all of the same caliber, which Snowden wouldn't release, and they were recovered from the room that Asia and George were found in as well.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
Now, there were no bullets found by the third victim. The bullet that shot her never exited her body. Now, as all this police activity was unfolding, people in the neighborhood were beginning to wake up for the day and the massive police presence caused a bit of a frenzy.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
Even though George and Asia's identities were spreading by word of mouth, it wasn't until the next day that police officially released their names to the public. Almost all other details of the crime scene were kept under wraps to protect the integrity of the investigation, though. And the lack of official information fueled a very powerful rumor mill.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
Somebody told Terrence that his niece Asia had been found in a closet surrounded by a pool of blood clutching a hammer in her hands, almost like she had been trying to defend herself. He remembers hearing that there was, quote, blood leaking out the closet, end quote.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
George's brother Jonathan heard that George was found shot in a bedroom with a dresser blocking the door, while Terrence heard that George had been shot execution style while on his knees. Another rumor held that both female victims were pregnant at the time of the attack, which the ME's report reveals is not true.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
So all this gossip made an initial canvas of the neighborhood challenging for detectives.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
No one in the neighborhood reported seeing anything or even hearing any gunshots, likely due to the storm that night. So with no eyewitnesses or earwitnesses to the crime, detectives decided to see if they could get anything from surveillance cameras in the area. Now, unfortunately, there was only one neighboring home that had anything.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
And when police went over there to ask about the footage, the owner said that the cameras were just for show and they didn't actually work. Investigators also tried to check cameras from ATMs to nearby gas stations, a liquor store and a housing project to see if there was anything unusual on them around the time of the shooting. Maybe something like cars leaving the area at high speed.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
But they didn't find anything to help lead them in any particular direction. So with nothing else to go off of, detectives decided to focus on the victims.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
And most importantly, who was their third victim? Well, they were about to find out by running her prints. It was about a week after the murders when police learned that the unconscious woman at the hospital was 37-year-old Lindsay Foster Herr. And it turned out Lindsay's mom, Cindy, had been worrying about her daughter, who had been MIA for days at that point.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
Now, he wasn't there when she arrived and didn't show up for the multiple hours Penny waited around in the storm. So finally, she decided to just walk to his house, which was right around the corner on Old Slag Road in Moss Point, Mississippi. When she got there, she could see that the house was totally dark, but that wasn't necessarily a surprise. The power had been cut off a while back.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
I know you might hear it a lot in true crime, but Cindy said it was true of her daughter. She really did light up a room. She was kind with a great sense of humor. But Lindsay had started using drugs in high school, and though she had periods of sobriety, she was in a rough patch leading up to the shooting.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
Lindsay had separated from her husband, and Cindy was taking care of her kids, not always knowing exactly where Lindsay was. Investigators determined that Lindsay had been staying at the Old Slag Roadhouse prior to the shooting, though it wasn't totally clear when she'd moved in or how she'd even met George and Asia.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
The last Cindy heard, her daughter had been living in Losedale, Mississippi, which is about an hour from Moss Point. Detective Snowden wasn't sure how Lindsay and George met either, but said it was likely that narcotics were involved. And George had a history of drug arrests.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
According to George's brother, Jonathan, George had gotten out of prison a few months before the murders and was about to celebrate his first Christmas beyond bars since he was 16. Jonathan said that despite spending most of his adult life incarcerated, George had a soft side.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
Following his release, George had been living in that house on Old Slag Road and would frequently rent out rooms to people in need. In fact, right up until two months before George's murder, Jonathan and his family had been staying in that house as well. Jonathan knew of Lindsay, but he never overlapped with her. He moved out just as she moved in.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
And they did that because his wife had been getting bad omens.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
Jonathan's wife wasn't the only one worried about safety in that house. Asia's family didn't like the idea of her staying there either. They were concerned about her relationship with George and his influence over her. The pair had met through somebody else, but had quickly become inseparable.
The Deck
George Kirkland, Asia Norman & Lindsay Foster Hurr (2 of Clubs, Mississippi)
And in the days leading up to the murder, Asia's family had actually been trying to get her to move back home with them.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
The hunters had originally called Price County because it was the closest law enforcement agency. But after one of them reached a hand into one of the jacket pockets, the group decided that they should probably call neighboring Vilas County instead. Because inside, there was an ID bearing the name Susan Poupart. And the hunters knew that name.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Regardless, after this round of interviews, detectives believed that Robert, Joe, and Fritz were likely involved in Susie's murder. But without a confession or DNA evidence, there just wasn't enough for an arrest. Here's Detective Sergeant Cody Remick, who is working Susie's case today.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
But this theory is completely based on circumstantial evidence. So for a few years, the case was in limbo. Meanwhile, Susie's children were growing up and beginning to understand more about their mom's tragic death. Jared, who was six years older than Alexandria, began picking up on things first.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
And when Jared began putting the pieces together, he wanted his sister to know the truth as well. Alexandria had grown up thinking that her aunt was actually her mom.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
As both children grew up, it was impossible for them to escape the rumors. Everyone on the reservation seemed to think that Joe, Robert, and Fritz were getting away with murder.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Two years into the investigation, not much had changed. The suspects were the same, but little progress had been made. Investigators hadn't even sent off all that shelved stuff for forensic testing to see if it would shake anything up.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Detective Remick said that he doesn't really know why it took so long, but he assumes that maybe investigators at the time just put testing on the back burner while they focused on talking to witnesses and interviewing their prime suspects. But Susie's children actually have a different theory.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
This is a question we've grappled with before. In fact, we just covered the stories of other murdered indigenous women in Wisconsin on Crime Junkie, and their loved ones share the same grievance about how the cases of indigenous women are so often mishandled. You can listen to the stories of those women told in two parts through the link in our show notes.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Ultimately, it's hard to determine what effect, if any, the delay in forensic testing had on Susie's case. But the garbage bags, the clothing, soda cans, chip bags, and the mattress pad cutting that were eventually sent to the FBI lab for blood, print, and fiber testing in 1992 didn't actually produce anything of evidentiary value. So after that, the case went cold for about a decade.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
In a moment when things were flowing, during a case review in 2003, investigators realized that a detail that they had overlooked could actually hold the key to a breakthrough in Susie's case. And it all revolved around that deer hair that they had collected from the forest where the partial remains were found.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Now, detectives hadn't thought much of the deer hair at first because the area where Susie was found was meant for deer hunting. But eventually, someone put the pieces together that there was also deer hair in the trunk of Robert's car, which had been vacuumed by detectives after his crash.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
That was Sheriff Joseph Fath. He was one of the Vilas County detectives that was investigating Susie's missing persons case, which had come to Vilas County six months earlier on May 22nd of 1990.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Investigators took this blow hard. It was their first possible break in the case in a decade. And just like that, it got washed away. Another decade would pass before they did any more testing.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
But in 2014, the garbage bags, clothing, beer cans, and mattress pad cutting were sent off a second time, along with oral swabs from Robert, Joe, and Fritz with the hope that new technology might bring different results. And this time, the lab was able to find some things. For one, Susie's green underwear had a small amount of what was determined to be male DNA.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
And when I say small, I mean very small. Detective Remick actually said it was, quote, pretty much as close to zero as you can get. They tried again in 2024, sending off the underwear for MVAC testing, coincidentally with funding help from the nonprofit I founded, Season of Justice. But unfortunately, there just was too little DNA material to develop any sort of profile then either.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
But back in 2014, the other thing that the lab found were some strands of hair on the mattress pad cutting.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
When the report was filed by Susie's sister Dawn, she hadn't heard from or seen her sister in two days, which was especially alarming because the two weren't just sisters, they were roommates, along with Susie's two young children. Now, 29-year-old Susie was known to go out and maybe even stay out all night.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Over the years, detectives routinely sent out whatever items they had left for DNA testing. But every time they struck out. And now they're running out of things to send.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
As for the suspects, Joe, Robert, and Fritz, detectives continued to interview them over the years, any time that they could. They tried everything to get more information out of them, but they were always met with the same response.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
At one point when Joe was in jail on an aggravated battery charge, the DA offered him a deal if he would go talk to Fritz while wearing a wire.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Detectives even coordinated with the DA's office to facilitate John Doe hearings in 2003 and again in 2007. John Doe hearings are specific to Wisconsin. They're a special kind of court process that helps the state decide if there's enough evidence to charge someone with a crime.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Their goal is to protect people from unnecessary prosecution and also to allow law enforcement to gather evidence needed to establish probable cause. Basically, the prosecutor calls witnesses and presents everything they do know, and then the judge determines if the case should move forward with formal charges and against whom.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
They're labeled John Doe because at the start, the state might not know who exactly to charge with the crime. It's essentially the DA trying to connect the dots before going full speed ahead with charges. In Susie's case, the John Doe hearings allowed Joe, Robert, and Fritz to be subpoenaed and questioned under oath about Susie's case without being arrested or charged.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
The hope was that the hearing would elicit some sort of confession. But unfortunately for detectives on the stand at the hearings, Joe, Robert, and Fritz all maintained their innocence and pleaded the fifth in response to a handful of questions. Now, we've tried every listed number for Joe and Robert.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
We've left multiple voicemails and wrote a letter to Fritz, who is currently in prison for unrelated offenses. But as of this recording, we haven't heard anything back from any of them. To this day, the general consensus among the Locke du Flambeau community seems to be that the three men were involved in Susie's murder. Susie's children are more vocal than anyone.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
So when she went to a party on the 19th and didn't come home by morning, it was no big deal. But two days passing with her not so much as checking in on her kids was completely unheard of. And that's how Dawn knew that something was wrong.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
But there's only so much detectives can do without more physical evidence.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Today, Jared and Alexandria still live in Loc de Flambeau. They've been there their whole lives, close to their mom. Alexandria gets told all the time that she looks so much like her mom that sometimes it's hard for people to even be around her. And her house is actually on the same road as the house where her mom was last seen.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
But while staying in that town has kept Susie's kids close to the memory of their mom, it's also kept them close to her suspected killers.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Another reminder comes in the form of a billboard with Susie's picture on it that has been up on the reservation since 2007. Detectives are actually getting it replaced with a new version soon. The hope is that it will keep Susie on everyone's minds, and eventually someone will come forward with the puzzle piece they need to get justice for her and her children.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Here's our reporter Nicole again talking with Jared.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Every now and then when Jared starts to really miss his mom, he'll take out her picture and talk to it.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
If you know anything about the 1990 murder of Susan Susie Poupart in Loch de Flambeau, Wisconsin, please speak up. You can contact the Vilas County Sheriff's Department at 715-479-4441 or the Loch de Flambeau Tribal Police Department at 715-588-7717. Or if you prefer to remain anonymous, we'll have contact information for their local Crimestoppers in the show notes.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
The Deck will be off next week, but we will return the following week with a brand new episode. The Deck is an AudioChuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis. To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Investigators at the time had canvassed the reservation Susie lived on in the town of Locke du Flambeau, and they made a list of other partygoers. There turned out to be a group of around 20 or 30 people who had been at the party that night.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
There was one detail that had come up again and again, though. A handful of partygoers seemed to remember that around 4 o'clock in the morning, they saw Susie leave the party wearing blue jeans and a red and black jacket that a friend had lent her. But she wasn't leaving alone. Per witnesses, she had gotten into a car with two men, 19-year-old Joe Cobb and 18-year-old Robert Elm.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Susie never made it home, and six months later, her remains were found in a nearby forest. The men Susie was last seen with became immediate suspects, but to this day, there just isn't enough evidence to charge them with her murder. Or is there? I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
According to detectives, Locke du Flambeau is a small community where everybody pretty much knows everyone else. But it didn't seem like Susie and these men were friends or anything prior to the party. And although Susie was about 10 years older than Joe and Robert, partygoers say that Robert had been flirting with her that night.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
It's important to note here that police were already well acquainted with Joe and Robert. They had a history of getting into fights and domestic abuse. Both had been violent toward women. So detectives were suspicious about their potential role in Susie's disappearance right from the jump. Here's our reporter Nicole talking with detectives.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Joe, for one, had confirmed that he was in the car that night, but said that he'd been too intoxicated to remember much else. Robert was the one who'd been driving, and he seemed to remember more. He said that he and Joe got into his car with Susie that night to bring her home.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
But for some reason, on the way there, at around 4 or 4.30 a.m., they stopped to let her out in front of a local elementary school. Then they continued on to Joe's mom's house, where they ended their night. Now, this story left investigators with a bunch of questions. For starters, why did Susie want to get out of the car near an elementary school on a Sunday at 4 o'clock in the morning?
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
And by the way, this school wasn't on the way to Susie's house. So why were they driving past it in the first place?
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Our card this week is Susan Susie Poupart, the Seven of Spades from Wisconsin. When 29-year-old Susie went to a house party on her reservation surrounded by friends and so close to home, she should have been safe. But when the mother of two left the party in a car with some younger men, things took a turn for the worst.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
But it would be months before the hunters made their discovery of the jacket and jawbone in the forest. And in that time frame, a third name popped up. Fritz Schumann.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Fritz was the oldest of the bunch at 22. He, Robert, and Joe all went to the same school and knew each other from the powwow circuit, which is basically a series of cultural gatherings celebrating Native American traditions. According to Sheriff Fath, all three men had started behaving strangely in the wake of Susie's disappearance.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
They'd started racking up domestic violence reports and acting differently toward their significant others. In no time, tons of rumors were flying around the reservation about all three of these men.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Now, you can't arrest someone based on a rumor, but all that chasing down must have spooked the three men, because in quick succession, they all decided to leave the reservation. Fritz Schumann began working at a cranberry bog in a neighboring county, and Joe Cobb and Robert Elm suddenly tried to enlist in the Navy.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
After the discovery of the remains on Thanksgiving Day, investigators spent about six days out in the Chequamegon-Nicolet National Forest with cadaver dogs processing the scene. And along with the jacket and ID, they collected a pair of jeans, a shirt, a bra, underwear, trash bags with duct tape, soda cans, chip bags, a piece of white mattress pad, deer hair, and a shard of plastic.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Early on, it was determined that the clothing did belong to Susie, that the garbage bags were consistent with those sold on the reservation, and that the shard of plastic, which investigators thought could have been part of the trim on a suspect's vehicle, was actually just a broken piece of logging equipment that seemed to have nothing to do with the case.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
As for the rest of the evidence, since it was 1990 and they didn't really know about DNA yet, it was pretty much just set aside without any forensic testing. What investigators really wanted to find in their continued search of the forest were more remains, mainly the rest of Susie's skull to see if there was any trauma or something that would help to determine a cause of death.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
It took about three or four weeks for dental records to definitively confirm that the remains belonged to Susie. But the ID and the clothing were enough for detectives to notify her family. Here's Jared Poupart, Susie's son. He was only eight years old when his mom was taken from him. And in that instant, it felt like his whole world turned upside down.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
At nine years old, Jared couldn't understand how something like this could happen, especially to his mom. He adored her. Here's Jared talking with his younger sister, Alexandria Poupart. She was only three when they lost their mom.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
It was Thanksgiving Day in 1990 when the Price County Sheriff's Department in Wisconsin got a call from some deer hunters in the Chequamegon-Nicolet National Forest. The hunters said that they were packing up to head home when a red and black nylon jacket hanging from a tree caught their eye. And when they got closer, they noticed something on the ground next to it, a partial jawbone.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Unfortunately, after the forest search concluded, it still wasn't clear what exactly it was that Susie got. With the little he had to work with, a pathologist ruled Susie's death a homicide. But there was just no way to figure out her cause of death. Not only were there so few remains, but the warm, swampy condition of the forest had also aided decomposition.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Plus, the remains had been disturbed by animals. The bones actually had gnaw marks indicative of bear, wolf, or coyote activity.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Now, local media has published that Susie had been, quote, sexually assaulted and left naked. But I'm not totally sure where they got that from. Investigators told us that considering the state of the remains, there really was no way for the pathologist to determine that one way or another.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
In the end, the most helpful thing the remains gave detectives was a reason to reach back out to their primary suspects. Because both Robert and Fritz were known to hunt for deer in the forest where Susie was found.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
So detectives began tracking down all three men. They found Joe in Illinois working at a popcorn factory. Apparently, he'd never made it to the Navy. And this time around, he suddenly seemed to recall a bit more about that fateful May night. He told detectives that he remembered going back to his mom's house with Robert after dropping Susie off and having a beer before Robert went home.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Obviously, this sudden recollection matching Robert's story almost five months after his initial interview was suspicious to detectives. It just seemed all too convenient. As for Robert, detectives flew down to Pensacola, Florida to interview him at Navy boot camp. His story didn't change, but something else bubbled up after that conversation.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
It had to do with a car crash that Robert had gotten into just a month before Susie's remains were found when he was home from boot camp. A story had begun to spread about the circumstances of the crash because the road Robert was speeding down, Chequamegon Forest Trail, was right next to where Susie's body would be found.
The Deck
Susan Poupart (7 of Spades, Wisconsin)
Robert had been driving a friend's car during the accident. But after this conversation, detectives decided to seize his personal car, which he would have used to drive Susie home from the party that night. They brought it to their crime lab, where it was processed and vacuumed. But that evidence was shelved, along with all of the other evidence from the dump site.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Kyle had just gotten his holiday bonus from his job as a laborer building docks at the Essex Island Marina. It was about $600 added to his paycheck, and he usually handed his checks right over to Kate to pay the bills. While at the party, Kyle's bosses usually also handed out some extra cash for the holidays.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Kyle's mom, Darlene, told our reporter that Kyle had been in the process of getting his pistol permit with his dad. Now, she insisted that Kyle was doing everything by the book, and he had a specific reason that he wanted a gun, though not one that you would probably ever guess.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Darlene said that Kyle's dream was to spend more time on the water. And she and her husband had just bought a boat for Kyle that he was making payments on.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Darlene said Kyle had gone to a local gun shop about a week before his murder and had called her afterwards to get her advice about which pistol to buy. He specifically said that he wouldn't be able to get it until he submitted his permit application and got it approved, which they were expecting to happen shortly after the holiday.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Detective Carroll said police in Waterford never received a pistol permit application from Kyle. But that doesn't mean that he wasn't gathering the paperwork he needed to submit that application. Kyle's brother Jeremy said Kyle hadn't mentioned anything to him about planning to meet up with anyone to buy a gun.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
And he really doesn't think Kyle would be spending money on something like that right before the holidays, even if he had just gotten his bonus. He said that Kyle had spent a ton on Christmas presents already that year, and the brothers were planning to go shopping for their wives the very next day. Kyle also didn't have much cash on him.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
He had that 40 bucks for food and investigators found $23 in the wallet in his back pocket. I mean, his wife, Kate, said that he never really had much cash on him.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
And even if he'd gotten a cash bonus that day, Kyle's mom said that as far as she knows from having a husband and two sons who have done a lot of manual labor at marinas and on the water like Kyle did, he probably would have gotten like 50 bucks or so. Detectives still weren't completely convinced that Kyle hadn't planned to meet someone for something out in that parking lot.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
And I don't know exactly how much more Kyle got in cash, but on this particular night, he held on to at least $40 to pay for takeout from their regular spot, the Lucky Inn. Now, this should have been a quick trip. The restaurant was only about 10 minutes away. So as time started to tick by, Kate started to wonder what was taking him so long.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
And since sifting through so many pages of Kyle's phone records hadn't gotten them any closer to a lead, they tried another avenue for information.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
So they had to do things the old-fashioned way. Hit the streets, talk to anyone who knew Kyle, anyone who might have known why he was in that parking lot that night. And they learned a little more about that night after talking to a friend named Travis. Travis said that Kyle had actually stopped by his place after leaving the bar, but before going home.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
And he tried to get Travis to go out with him, but Travis said no. Now, this was interesting, but it didn't give police a new lead to follow because Kyle wasn't trying to get Travis to go somewhere specific. And Kyle clearly decided to just go home himself to be with his family. I mean, why else would he have offered to go get dinner?
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
And in case you're wondering, yes, detectives checked Travis's alibi for the night and it was rock solid. So there just wasn't much for investigators to work with.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Complicating matters was that when Kyle was killed, law enforcement was already overwhelmed by another tragedy that had pulled the focus of the nation and put a spotlight on Connecticut and its investigators, the Sandy Hook mass shooting. Just a week before Kyle's murder, 20 children and six educators had been killed in an elementary school just an hour and a half away from where Kyle was shot.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
And that investigation was massive, pulling resources from across the state. Kyle's family still worries that all those factors could have played a role in the direction Kyle's case went in, because eventually his case was turned over to the state police cold case unit.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
In hopes of getting more leads, there was a reward put out for information on Kyle's case, and it was plastered on posters that his family put up around town. But even still, nothing happened. That is, until police put Kyle's case on a deck of playing cards in 2014 and passed those decks out to Connecticut prisons.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
But here's the twist. When Mike claimed to take credit for Kyle's murder, one of his buddies, who was also incarcerated at the time, got mad.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Just to be clear, Mike and Ron are not these guys' real names. Police insisted on using pseudonyms to protect their investigation. Now, they said Ron was known to act as Mike's muscle, for lack of a better term.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Now, she pushed aside her concern at first, telling herself maybe the restaurant was just really busy on a Friday night before the holidays. But then her phone buzzed with a text from her sister sharing news that was spreading fast through the small town. Someone had been shot at the local bowling alley.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
And it wasn't long before someone else came forward to report that Mike had confessed to the crime.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Apparently, this family member had come into possession of a phone that used to belong to Mike. And on that phone were photos of Mike holding various guns. And he decided to go to a cop that he knew and trusted to show him the photos and talk about Kyle's case.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Detective Carroll said that as promising as these tips were at first, the people they were getting these accounts from just weren't credible. The informant's supposed account of the shooting ultimately didn't add up when investigators dug in.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
He told police that there were other witnesses to Mike's confession, but according to parole and probation records, the people he said were there when Mike confessed couldn't have been. But police did still believe that there could be a kernel of truth in there. So they didn't want to let up just yet. Mike was incarcerated when that tip from the cold case deck came in.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Now, he was released from prison sometime in 2014 or 2015, but he wouldn't be out for long. Because while there just wasn't enough solid evidence for detectives to charge Mike with Kyle's murder, there were other crimes, namely drug dealing, that they could maybe bring him in for.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
And detectives' attempt to interview Ron failed to elicit any information at all.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
So detectives kept looking for more evidence to connect these guys to the scene. First, they turned back to cell phone records. A court had denied their first request for a cell tower dump, but a second request was approved. The data from that tower dump showed that Mike and Ron were in the area of the shooting at the time it happened.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Now, Kyle never really went to the bowling alley or the bar connected to it, but Kate knew that he would have driven right past it on his way to pick up the food. And she instantly just felt sick to her stomach. So right away, she started trying to call Kyle, but his phone just rang and rang and rang until it went to voicemail.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
But unfortunately, cell tower data doesn't provide an exact location. It just identifies the tower particular phones are pulling their data from at any given point. And it turned out that Mike and Ron both lived near the same cell tower that serviced the bowling alley. So both men could have just been at home. The interesting thing that they did get from the records, though, was activity.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Along with location, the records also showed the numbers of phone calls that both Mike and Ron made immediately after Kyle was shot. And there was a flurry of them, including a few calls that seemed really suspicious.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
The combination of tips about Mike and Ron and their cell phone activity certainly made detectives feel that they were on the path to arresting the men for Kyle's murder. But they still needed more evidence to clinch the charges. The weapon, a witness, anything. And in 2018, it seemed like they got exactly what they needed.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Someone claiming to be an eyewitness to the murder who was willing to talk to them. The tip that came in was from a woman named Amanda, who said that she knew Ron and Mike.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Now, Amanda is not this witness's real name, and her account wasn't the thing that was going to seal the deal either.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
They kept running into similar credibility issues as they followed new leads. At one point, detectives had gotten a family member of Mike's to agree to record a conversation with Mike. But apparently, that didn't pan out because Mike didn't trust that relative anymore. Maybe he found out that he'd gone to the cops previously.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
And phones were ringing over at the Waterford's 911 dispatch center around that time, too. It was about 8.20 p.m. when 911 dispatchers got back-to-back calls from people at the bowling alley saying a man was lying on the ground in the parking lot, bleeding from his chest. Here's Waterford detective Ray Carroll.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Now, another woman, we'll call Julie, also contacted investigators about Mike.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Detective Carroll said it's hard to tell whether some of these stories have been inaccurate due to people being dishonest or just because they waited so long to give their tips to police. The flip side of that, though, is the $25,000 reward that's up for grabs could also be motivating people to just make things up.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
In 2021 and 2022, police tried to see if they could link Mike and Ron to the crime scene using DNA. Back in the early days of the investigation, when they were exploring all possibilities, they had Kyle's clothes tested for possible touch DNA. And they did find some unknown DNA mixtures on his clothing, including near the chest area of his sweatshirt.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
So they got search warrants for Mike and Ron's DNA and compared it to the unidentified DNA mixtures found on Kyle's clothing. But there was no match. Now, detectives say that that doesn't rule them out as suspects since the shooter may have never even touched Kyle. But it doesn't help their case against Mike and Ron either.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
And while investigators feel pretty confident that Mike and Ron are their guys, they have other questions that they're still hoping to answer.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
It's worth noting that while much of the investigation has revolved around Mike and Ron, police did their due diligence and considered members of Kyle's own family at the start. And detectives told us that they don't consider any of them a suspect in his death. They found no sign of a life insurance policy in Kyle's name, so there was really no financial motivation for him to be killed.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
And Kate and Jeremy allowed police to look through their phones. Kyle's mom and brother say that he and Kate had dealt with relationship struggles in the past but had worked on their relationship and were in a good place as a couple. Darlene says that she remains as close to Kate as if she were her own daughter.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
And both she and Jeremy believe that Kate and Kyle's marriage would have lasted for the long haul if they'd been given a chance. And detectives are still trying to figure out why they didn't get that chance. But to figure out the motive in Kyle's murder, they need people who knew Kyle or know Mike and Ron to come forward.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Detectives think it is possible that someone who knew and loved Kyle hasn't shared everything they know.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Detective Carroll also spoke directly to anyone who might be afraid that they could get in trouble for coming forward with information.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
When first responders arrived at the scene a few minutes after those calls came in, the injured man was barely conscious.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Kyle's wife, Kate, wrote in an email to our reporter that watching their children, Samantha, Maya and Jesse, grow up without Kyle there to celebrate and support their milestones has been a heartbreaking experience. I mean, Kyle missed seeing Samantha graduate high school. Maya got her first job. Jesse learned how to ride a dirt bike.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
I mean, they were just eight, six and two when their father was taken from them. And Kate said that Kyle was her best friend and navigating her own grief while helping three young children understand that their dad wasn't coming home when she herself didn't understand what happened was a devastating task.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
At Kyle's funeral, Kate said that she waited until everyone else had left the room and told her husband, I've got this. I will need your help along the way, but I've got this. And over the years, that's what she and her kids have said to each other when their grief feels unbearable, when times get hard. They look at each other and say, I've got this.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Kate told us that she heard rumors over the years about suspects in the case. And based on what she's pieced together, she doesn't believe the suspects are people that she or Kyle knew or even ever met. She believes, like Darlene and Jeremy do, that Kyle encountered his killer in some sort of random run-in. She said healing is impossible without answers about what happened to Kyle.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Here is our reporter reading part of Kate's statement to us.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Kyle's parents, Darlene and Rick, moved to Florida a few years after the murder because being in Waterford carried too many reminders of what happened to Kyle. But they carry his memory with them in a visible way. Before Kyle died, she and Rick got matching tattoos to memorialize their shared love for Chevy cars and trucks.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
And since Kyle's death, Darlene has gotten a full tattoo sleeve with images that represent her love for him. A rendering of his beloved boat, a sunset over the water, a fishing lure, and a broken heart. Darlene thinks about her son every day and regularly checks in with detectives to find out whether Mike and Ron are in or out of prison. Thank you.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Investigators located the man's wallet and ran his tags to identify him. It was, indeed, Kyle, though Kate wouldn't know that yet. While she waited anxiously at home, hoping he would just pull into the driveway any minute, paramedics loaded Kyle onto an ambulance and rushed him to the hospital, just as investigators would continue to process the scene, starting with Kyle's car.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Instead of the Chinese restaurant, Kyle was found in the parking lot of a local bowling alley, shot by a mystery assailant with an even more mysterious motive. And detectives are hoping that you can help them crack this case. I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck. It was the Friday night before Christmas in 2012, and 34-year-old Kyle Seidel was a little late getting home from work.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Now, they didn't find anything of note in the car except for the $40 in cash that Kyle had taken with him to pay for the dinner that he never picked up. Outside of the car, investigators didn't notice any damage like bullet holes or shattered glass. The only thing left behind was a small open pocket knife on the ground near the car, one that they would come to learn Kyle carried with him often.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
And all of this led police to believe that Kyle was actually outside of his vehicle when he'd been shot. And he must have known that he was in danger.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
And aside from the knife, nothing else was found, not even shell casings. But there could have been multiple reasons for that. I mean, the wind was roaring that night, dropping the temperature into the low 30s, and police said a shell casing literally could have just been blown away. Or maybe the shooter picked up the casings before fleeing.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Or potentially they used a revolver, which doesn't expel its casings at all. All in all, investigators didn't have much to work with.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Police talked to more than a dozen people at the scene, interviewed local business owners, and took down the license plates of every car parked in the parking lot. But none of it led to useful information. Police didn't really report any accounts of anyone seeing Kyle pull into the lot or hearing any arguing. There were no witness accounts of any vehicles speeding away from the scene.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
And by the way, they weren't even sure that their killer was in a car. I mean, it's just as likely at this point that they could have been on foot. And any hope that Kyle himself might be able to identify his assailant was dashed that same night when he succumbed to his injuries. He was pronounced dead at 8.45 p.m.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Our card this week is Kyle Seidel, the Five of Diamonds from Connecticut. Kyle Zeidel should have only been gone for about 20 minutes when he went to pick up Chinese takeout for his wife and their kids just a few days before Christmas in 2012. But something happened that night that changed the course of his fate.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
About this same time, Kate was at home trying to calm herself down so she could focus on finding Kyle. She took their son, Jesse, upstairs and put him to sleep in his crib. And then she went into her and Kyle's bedroom and dialed his number one last time. She listened to the phone ring and ring again. And just then, she saw headlights outside of her bedroom window.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
She looked out to see a truck pulling into her driveway. And this ominous feeling just washed over her. Kate recognized the truck pulling into her drive. It was her sister, Christy's. When Christy, Christy's husband, and their friend piled out of the truck, Kate just knew. This wasn't just a bad feeling she was having. This was bad.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Though no one had been notified by police, word spreads fast in a small town where everyone knows one another. Christy had a friend who worked at the local emergency room and that friend told her that Kyle had been shot. So Christy stayed behind with the kids while Kate jumped into the truck with Christy's husband and his friend and headed straight to the ER.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
But by the time she got there, Kyle was already gone. And Kate was left with a million questions. Like, why was he in that parking lot to begin with? I mean, that's a question police were asking her too. But she had no answers. She told them about the holiday party that he'd gone to, the plan to pick up Chinese for dinner. And she knew that he'd been drinking at the party earlier that day.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
And Kyle's brother, Jeremy, confirmed that his brother had sounded like he'd been drinking when he talked to him on the phone about an hour before he'd been shot. But no one could think of any reason why he would have stopped at the bowling alley.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
He still bought weed from a local guy, but Kate said that she didn't know his name and she really didn't think Kyle had been planning to meet up with him or anyone on his way to grab food. Kate also told us that Kyle had weed at home, so he wouldn't have been out buying anymore. And when they talked to his mom, Darlene, she added this.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
As Kyle's family struggled to make sense of how he ended up in that bowling alley parking lot, they arrived at one possible theory—
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Detectives took this theory seriously. I mean, they were already in the process of scouring the area for security footage to see if the shooting or the moments leading up to it were captured on camera. But they didn't have any luck. Most of the local businesses had cameras that either weren't working or weren't pointing in the right direction.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
There was one camera from a nearby ATM that had a motion activated camera. Now, it didn't show Kyle pulling into the bowling alley, but at one point it did show Kyle's car in the parking lot, which could have been helpful for investigators, except. Whenever the camera was motion-activated by a car pulling up to the ATM, the car getting cash would block the view of the rest of the scene.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
So investigators couldn't see much, and they weren't able to gather any evidence from that footage. Now, there was a glimmer of hope when detectives reviewing surveillance footage from a gas station spotted a car registered to someone with a violent criminal history driving by the bowling alley that same night.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
But that person had a solid alibi for the time of Kyle's killing and was cleared of any involvement in his death. Though this road rage theory seemed to be prominent among family, it never made sense to his mom, Darlene, who told our reporter, Taylor, that Kyle wasn't prone to road rage. In fact, he was really scared of other people being aggressive on the road.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
If another driver had gotten mad at him for something on the road, Darlene thought that Kyle probably would have pulled off the road to avoid them, maybe into a parking lot. But in her mind, it was more likely that he stopped to help someone.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Detectives considered the theory that he stopped to help someone too. But ultimately, they dismissed it because it was unlikely that he could have even spotted someone in distress.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
That made them wonder. If it wasn't road rage and he hadn't seen someone in distress, maybe the stop was pre-planned.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
He'd been to his company holiday party and then stopped off at a dive bar with a friend. But the minute he walked through the door of his Waterford, Connecticut home at about 7.30 p.m., he switched into dad mode, greeting his wife Kate and their three young kids and agreeing to go pick up Chinese food for dinner.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
So they turned to Kyle's phone, hoping if it was a planned meetup, they would find evidence of it being arranged. But sure enough, just like his family suggested, there weren't any messages about anything like that. And talk screens later done at an autopsy would confirm that there were no illegal drugs or even prescription painkillers in his system, just alcohol. Though quite a lot of it.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Kyle's BAC at the time of his death was 0.18%, which is more than double the legal limit in Connecticut. But there was one message on his phone that did stand out. One suggesting that maybe he had been trying to buy something else. The medical examiner had recovered a bullet from Kyle's body, a .45 caliber.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
And that stood out to police because of a text message that Kyle sent to his friend the day before he was murdered.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Detectives talked to the friend who Kyle had texted about the gun. And unfortunately, Kyle hadn't said anything more about who or where he was planning to buy it from. Apparently, Kyle told his friend that he had a pistol permit, so his friend just assumed that he would be buying it from a store. But detectives learned that Kyle didn't have a pistol permit.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
So there was a chance that he was planning to buy a pistol off the books. Now, detectives checked Kyle's incoming and outgoing calls, texts, social media messages, but they didn't find anything to indicate that he'd communicated with anyone about an illegal gun purchase. And there were no calls or texts to any unknown numbers either.
The Deck
Kyle Seidel (5 of Diamonds, Connecticut)
Detectives also checked phone records for Kate, Jeremy, and one of Kyle's close friends. One thing they were looking for was to see if any of them had exchanged messages with anyone about buying any drugs or a gun. Like maybe someone else had set up a meeting for Kyle, but there was nothing.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
Being from a family originally from Naples that still lives there today, Sharon's loved ones, including the three children she left behind, have heard plenty of talk around town over the past few decades about her homicide. Some of them didn't even realize how violent her death had been until they read the write-up on her card, the one featured in the Southwest Florida Crimestoppers playing deck.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
One of Sharon's daughters, Sharonda, actually ran into the woman we'd been calling Maria some years ago.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
I don't believe it. It's hard for the family to imagine their fierce Sharon being in such a vulnerable spot. Here's her other daughter, Jaquanetta, talking with Sharonda about what they've heard from others about their mom's tough and independent personality. When Sharon was murdered, Sharonda was only a toddler, and Jaquanetta was around seven.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
The family feels that the truth has to lie somewhere in the story surrounding that fateful night. The same details circulating around the same people have been repeated so many times. There just has to be something to it. But realistically, they know that it might take forensics to push things forward. And that is something that Lieutenant Young has been working on.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
He made a big push to resubmit evidence for testing back in 2021, with the bindings and ligatures made from her dress being the items he thought would be the most promising. But unfortunately, none of it came back with any foreign DNA. And as technology for touch DNA like MVAC improves, hope does remain for giving it another shot, maybe in the future.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
There's DNA on file for both Arthur and Robert, so detectives would have something for comparison should anything pop up. Lieutenant Young said that they are the only two persons of interest ever produced during the investigation. So, of course, our reporting team reached out to both of them for this episode. While Robert wouldn't participate in a formal interview, he did text back...
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
Among other things, he said that he knows nothing about the case, can't contribute to finding a suspect, and that his conscience is clear. He said he didn't know Sharon and that he's sad for the family. He also said he was only ever briefly in Naples.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
And during a short five-minute phone call, Arthur seemed like he was possibly open to speaking on this podcast after mentioning he didn't know how he got caught up in this. But he said he wanted to clear his name. He asked if our reporter could talk to his brother first before he answered any of our questions. But our reporter never heard from anyone in his family.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
And when she tried to reach back out to him to see if he still planned on talking, as of this recording, he hasn't responded. So if there is someone out there somewhere who is willing to set the record straight, detectives and Sharon's family are all ears. At least with this podcast, they feel some sense of comfort knowing Sharon's story has been put out there.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
She's someone that they will surely never forget. And maybe now she'll be on your mind, too.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
If you know anything about the murder of Sharon Jones in Naples, Florida in 1987, we hope you'll come forward for this family. You can remain anonymous by submitting a tip through Southwest Florida Crime Stoppers online or by calling them at 1-800-780-8477.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
We're also going to have all of the ways that you can contact the Naples police directly in the show notes and on the blog post for this episode. The Deck is an AudioChuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis. To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
That was Lieutenant Robert Young. He told our reporter that officers with the Naples PD went out to the scene and found the decomposed body of a woman who had been dumped, hidden away in a dark corner along with trash and debris.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
With her torn dress used as bindings and ligatures, she was left completely nude. And investigators didn't locate any undergarments at the scene. Due to her state of decomp, they assumed that she'd been left there for at least a few days or so. And it wasn't that shocking that she hadn't been found until now, considering most people would have no reason to venture into that area.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
So detectives collected everything they could from everywhere they could. high and low. On the ground, they didn't get much, aside from the pieces of cloth from her dress. Everything else just appeared to be random litter that was likely already there before their victim. But they didn't stop looking there.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
I was honestly pretty impressed that they went as far as to check the roof. I know you can never be too sure upon first glance, but it didn't look like the victim had taken a fall or anything. And since this looked like a strangulation case, I'm not sure what they were expecting to find up there.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
More than 37 years later, her family's still hearing remnants of these rumors. Rumors they're hoping someone out there can help put to rest once and for all. I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck. It was early in the evening on December 4th, 1987, when a guy named Grady made an unexpected pit stop at a vacant lot in Naples, Florida to take a leak.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
But find they did, though they think that the shoes were tossed up there for some unknown reason rather than her having actually been up there before her death. With nothing but her dress and shoes, detectives didn't have a clue as to who she was. But the folks in the River Park community were starting to talk and they had a pretty good idea.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
That was Von Seal, and her sister was 27-year-old Sharon Jones.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
It was her fingerprints on file that confirmed, at autopsy, the rumors Von Seal was hearing. The autopsy also confirmed what investigators had already assumed. Sharon's cause of death was ligature strangulation, the makeshift ligature being her own dress. There were no signs of sexual assault, and there were also no obvious signs of trauma that could have come from some type of assault or beating.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
The ME estimated that she had likely been dead around four or five days. And detectives were able to pinpoint November 26th as the last day one of her sisters had contact with her. But they needed to nail down who she'd been spending time with around then.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
Our card this week is Sharon Jones, the 10 of spades from Florida. The last known people to see Sharon Jones alive around Thanksgiving weekend in 1987 have something in common. They all attended the same party. And when the young woman showed up dead several days later, stories started swirling about what actually went down that night.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
There were two party attendees who were willing to talk, though. Two women who, to protect their identities, were going to call Maria and Monica. A weird coincidence, if you believe in coincidences. Monica was actually in the car with Grady when he accidentally stumbled upon Sharon's body.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
Admittedly, these two women were both under the influence that night, so while their memories were a bit hazy, their stories revolving around Robert and Arthur are nearly identical and I think speak to their credibility.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
They were also both seemingly open about their involvement in other illegal activity, like substance use and sex work, so they truly appeared to be acting in good faith when they spoke with law enforcement during the initial investigation, as well as throughout the following years.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
Here are voice actors reading from a section of a transcript from one of Maria's interviews with the detective as she recollected the sequence of events involving Sharon in more detail. Please note some parts have been cut and slightly edited for time and clarity.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
It seems like Maria was eventually able to identify Robert Ruscha as the other man she'd been referring to during that interview. Both Maria and Monica remembered Sharon being hauled out of the apartment and into a vehicle outside. But neither woman remembered her being tied up in any way when she was carried off.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
So it seems most likely that Sharon was unconscious and wasn't actually deceased when she was taken away. Since we know that she was tied up and that her cause of death was strangulation, the murder likely occurred after the group left the apartment.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
Through word of mouth, detectives eventually figured out that it was likely one of the partygoers, a guy who went by Sean, who Neesmith and Roche used as their getaway driver.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
Investigators talked to Sean while he was in jail for drug possession, and he was reluctant. He threw out two names of other men at the party as probably being responsible, one being Robert Ruscha, but he didn't appear to disclose why he thought this. We don't have any details about how he reacted when he was specifically confronted about his car being used in a crime.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
But Lieutenant Young said that he thinks the car may have been like a shared car that a lot of different people who stayed in that apartment would use. So maybe that could have been his excuse to keep the heat off of him. But either way, detectives did locate the Chevy station wagon to search and process.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
Outside of Maria and Monica, who were cooperative, and Arthur and Robert, who remained silent, it sounds like the other party guests had varying degrees of participation with law enforcement. Some of them played dumb and denied even being there at all, while others said that they hadn't really been paying attention to what Sharon was up to and denied seeing her past a certain time.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
But there was one brave soul who came out of the woodwork, supposedly ready to spill it all. A guy named John. He was older than everyone else and was the main tenant on the apartment lease, though it seemed like a lot of other people lived there kind of on and off. And while he didn't seem to be actively partaking in the events of that night, he had been present there.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
As frustrating as this was, I don't know how much of a difference it would have made for detectives. While different names have been thrown out over the years in regard to exactly who was responsible for killing Sharon Jones, we don't have any witness accounts that put John as the perp. So most likely, he would have just been another witness to back up Maria and Monica's story.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
And we know that that alone hasn't been enough for an arrest. What they really needed was a confession from someone who actually participated in the crime. And wouldn't you know it, the very next year, in 1988, Robert was also at the hospital when he told detectives he had something he wanted to get off of his chest, too.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
However, it seemed like Robert Ruscha may have sobered up because the detective wrote that he quickly came to his senses and had nothing to say. But all wasn't lost with this second letdown. Because one of their more obliging partygoers, Monica, had something up her sleeve. A plan to get Arthur Neesmith talking.
The Deck
Sharon Jones (10 of Spades, Florida)
It doesn't seem like Arthur even knew the plan was for Monica to bring up Sharon in an attempt to get him to talk about what went down the night of the party. I think he just assumed that she was helping the narcotics team nail him for selling drugs. But once Arthur caught on to the fact that he was being watched, it was a bust.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
And Lieutenant Bozeman's search for Tessie has gone well beyond her mom's backyard.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
The tip seemed credible enough to follow up with a physical search of a property on Manchester Road in Moss Point, where they were told she had been held, tortured, and eventually killed.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Police ran down another tip involving an ex-boyfriend of Tessie's who we'll call Robert. He had a pretty notable criminal history that included shooting and killing a guy and killing a police canine when they tried to arrest him. The tips around him were pretty vague, just that he had killed Tessie and buried her on his property.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
That was Carolyn you just heard. And by the time a little more than a month had passed without hearing from her daughter, Carolyn knew that she had to call the police. And now you'll hear from Lieutenant Shane Bozeman with the Jackson County Sheriff's Department, who was involved in the case from the very beginning.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
But as you probably guessed, that didn't end up checking out either. But it still goes to show just how many tall tales were running rampant in this case and how many leads police had to run down in search of Tessie, near and far. One of the most recent tips that's come in led Bozeman to search another Moss Point property off Highway 613.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
This is one that, oddly enough, was owned by a bondsman who'd been trying to track down Tessie, too, since there was an indictment out on her. And of all places, this tip actually came from a jail inmate who had seen Tessie's picture on the Mississippi Coast Crimestoppers deck of cold case cards.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
At some point, it has to feel like you're chasing your own tail a little. You run down the tip, chase down the tipster, only to find out they don't have any firsthand knowledge. And then you're back to that bad game of telephone.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Tessie's husband, John Tamores, is still a viable suspect to this day. But Bozeman said they never had enough probable cause to search his place or even to get records for his phone. But they were able to talk to someone very close to him to try and get more information.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
John Tamores is currently in prison serving time for residential burglary. We wrote him a letter hoping he might talk to us about Tessie, but as of the recording of this episode, we have yet to hear back. The greatest challenge detectives face is all the talk surrounding this case. Are they all just stories? Or could there be even a tidbit of truth buried among all that buzz?
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Tessie's mom, Carolyn, is still raising some of Tessie's children. And from what we've seen, she's doing an incredible job. Our reporters got to spend some time with Tessie's daughter, who is the spitting image of her mom. She is excelling in middle school, on the honor roll, and volunteers to help kids with special needs.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Even though she's young, she is already planning out her life, where she wants to go to college, what she wants to do for a career. But it'll likely be a future full of milestones that her mom won't get to witness. Although Tessie was struggling at the time she went missing, she never missed out on a chance to love on her children.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Carolyn gave a DNA sample to NamUs, so if Tessie's remains are ever found, detectives will be able to link them to her. If you know anything about her disappearance, around December 27th, 2019, in Jackson County, Mississippi, we urge you to contact the Mississippi Coast Crime Stoppers. You can remain completely anonymous by calling them at 877-DETECTIVE. 787-5898.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Or if you don't mind speaking to Lieutenant Bozeman directly, we'll have his office line and his email in the show notes. At the time she went missing, Tessie Tamores was described as having brown hair and blue eyes. She was around 5'6 to 5'7 and weighed about 150 to 165 pounds. The Deck is an Audiochuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
The last time Carolyn saw Tessie wasn't super memorable, but thankfully she could somehow pinpoint the exact date, December 27th, 2019. There hadn't been any drama, no blow-up fight, nothing even out of the ordinary.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Carolyn wasn't familiar with the friends, and it sounds like she didn't get a close enough look to be able to describe them either.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
But here they are, still in the same stagnant spot, still wondering what really happened, and still waiting for Tessie to come home. I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck. It was winter 2020 in Moss Point, Mississippi, and Carolyn Pardon was at her wit's end. Some of her daughter's children had been staying with her kind of on and off, but she usually wasn't their sole caregiver.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
So there were several things working against the investigation right out of the gate. The delayed reporting, the difficulty determining who she was with and the places she was going around the time she went missing, and the assumption that she might have skipped town to avoid going to prison.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
It took a few more months for the general consensus to shift from her possibly being on the run to her case likely involving foul play. The biggest red flag was that she hadn't reached out to any of her kids by this point, and there had been no activity on any of her social media.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Normally, in a missing persons case, one of the first things police look to is cell phone and bank records to try and pin down a person's last movements. But in Tessie's case, that wasn't even an option.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Our card this week is Tessie Tamores, the 10 of diamonds from Mississippi. When 37-year-old Tessie went more than a month without contacting any of her six children, her mom had this sinking feeling that something was wrong. Her loved ones never thought over five years would go by without hearing from her.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
But there was something, or rather someone, who kept coming up. Tessie's on-again, off-again partner and the father of her children. And Carolyn was familiar with him.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Lieutenant Bozeman was familiar with John, too. He'd been out to the couple's place in the Hurley community in the past for domestic calls.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Around the time Tessie disappeared, Lieutenant Bozeman said that she seemed to be out there doing her own thing and John was dating someone else. It'd be one thing if tensions had been brewing to the point of a boiling over, but it didn't appear to have been a particularly volatile period in their relationship.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
At the same time though, John himself admitted that the last time he saw her was December 26th, just one day before she was last seen by anyone. Apparently, he'd just gotten out of jail on December 23rd, and he'd spent both Christmas Eve and Christmas Day with Tessie and her family and their kids. So at least to me, it sounds like that estrangement had maybe been wearing off.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
But according to our sources, John wasn't out and about helping look for Tessie after she went missing. He did cooperate with police, though, even volunteered to come in and talk, but he definitely didn't seem devastated by her disappearance.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Lieutenant Bozeman wouldn't divulge any details about the results of the test or what exact questions were asked to John since this is still an ongoing investigation. But, according to Carolyn, John was dropping not-so-subtle hints to her insinuating that he knew something bad had happened to Tessie.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
The most straightforward speculation was this. John's relationship with Tessie was tumultuous. He'd been violent before, and maybe in a fit of rage, he finally snapped. Carolyn had witnessed his need for control firsthand. Maybe he was jealous that Tessie seemed to have finally moved on. But that simple explanation was far from the only possibility that was emerging.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
Their mom, Tessie, would normally swing by every so often to see them. I mean, at the very least, she would call to catch up. But days were turning into weeks without so much as a phone call.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
There were plenty of other accounts like this. Wild, but not wild enough to simply shrug off. Detectives did their best to verify every story, and they were even able to track down and talk to most of the men associated with that first story. But they all said, no way. They found the idea absolutely ridiculous.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
But if the people popping up had any connection to John, whether they'd just heard something through the grapevine or had knowledge about what had happened to Tessie, they would likely be too afraid to actually admit it.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
The other problem with verifying some of the stories that they heard is that by the time they got to police these stories, they had been cycled through a drug-fueled game of telephone.
The Deck
Tessie Temores (10 of Diamonds, Mississippi)
That spider web Bozeman referred to right there is what made searching for Tessie nearly impossible. And as if things couldn't get any more twisted, not only were detectives being bombarded with a bunch of rumors about what may have happened to Tessie and who could have been responsible, now they were also getting tons of tips about where they might be able to locate her remains.
The Deck
Javed Akhtar (Jack of Diamonds, Connecticut)
He had young children, and he had a younger wife. You know, I don't work in a jurisdiction where we have a lot of homicides, so I don't want to say I take it personally, but it was one of the ones where you come into our community, you shoot people, you kill somebody for the community that we're in charge of protecting.
The Deck
Javed Akhtar (Jack of Diamonds, Connecticut)
I'm fiercely loyal to the officers that work with me and beside me, and fiercely loyal to the citizens that we are tasked with protecting. I want to solve this. I want to stay with this. Even when I retire years from now, if
The Deck
Javed Akhtar (Jack of Diamonds, Connecticut)
If somebody picks this up and I check it over here, I'll probably always be like, hey, whatever came in that Javid case, I would love nothing more than to be able to find Rafia and or Javid's someday and say we solved this crime.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
Dibak said he believed the waitress was reliable, so he had the Imperial Palace look through their surveillance video based on her tip. But there didn't appear to be any footage of Meong anywhere. So, unable to confirm the waitress's story, Dibak had to assume that maybe she was mistaken.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
She couldn't say anything else about the man she allegedly saw Mae Young with other than he was white, which left Dee back with another possible person of interest that he had no way to identify. That same month, D-Back also got a call from Mayong's son Vu, the one who had initially reported her missing.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
He told D-Back that he had received a call from somebody saying that they saw Mayong at a casino in Lake Charles, Louisiana. And that's over four hours from Biloxi.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
And unfortunately, that was the last tip D-Back received in this case. In fact, those two tips were the only ones he ever got. In January of 2010, D-Back entered Vu's DNA into CODIS. And over the years, he's gotten a handful of hits for possible matches to unidentified remains found out of state. But each one was eventually ruled out.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
Dibak said that because it's been so long and Myeong hasn't resurfaced anywhere, she hasn't gotten a ticket in another state or popped up on any NCIC lists, he can only assume that there was foul play involved in her disappearance. But other than that, he says he doesn't have enough information to come up with a theory about what really did happen to her.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
Except this time, she was strangely quiet. Two weeks passed, then three, then four. But her family hadn't seen or heard from her. When they got a call from one of their mom's friends who had also been ghosted, they really began to worry. The woman said that Mayong was supposed to visit her after her Mississippi trip, but she just never showed.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
Here's our reporter Nicole speaking with Detective Dibak. What would you say has been the most challenging part of this case?
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
Today, Mayong would be 67 years old. At the time of her disappearance, she was 5 feet tall and 140 pounds. She had black hair, brown eyes, and pierced ears. You can find her photo in the show notes. So if you know anything about the 2008 disappearance of Mayong or her movements in Biloxi, from September 27th to October 4th, please call Mississippi Coast Crime Stoppers at 1-877-MISSISSIPPI.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
Or you can submit a tip online at p3tips.com. The Deck is an AudioChuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis. To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
And she hadn't returned any of the woman's repeated phone calls either. So the family decided to take action. On November 5th, Mayong's son Vu decided that he needed to file a missing persons report with authorities in Escambia County, Florida, where they lived. What he told them was that his mom's last known location was in Mississippi. Well, you know how that works, not their jurisdiction.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
So they called over to Biloxi where they got a hold of D-Back. They explained the scenario to him and put him in touch with Mayong's family.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
Now, when Mayong boarded the bus back in September, D-Bag told us that she'd been alone. But that's not to say she was planning on being alone the entire trip. Vu said his mom was very friendly and, quote, she'd talk to anybody. Apparently, she'd been making these trips to Biloxi for at least a year at that point. So it was likely she knew people there.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
on bus rides to Mississippi and Louisiana, where she would hit the casinos for a couple weeks at a time. She was even planning an upcoming trip back home to her home country of Vietnam to visit her family. But on October 4th, 2008, a fateful cab ride would postpone that trip indefinitely, and it would change the course of Mayong's life and so many others. I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
They just didn't know who those people might be. She'd never talked about anyone in particular. And tracking Mayong's movements, even in 2008, was going to be a challenge because there wasn't really a paper trail for D-Back to follow. Mayong only used cash. Cash to gamble, cash to pay for her bus ticket, cash to pay for her hotel rooms. Vu said his mom often kept large amounts of cash on her.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
She preferred to carry her money this way and actually didn't even have any credit cards. She didn't even have a bank account.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
So one of the first things D-Back did was call Mayong's cell, just like her kids had tried. But the same thing happened. No answer. He also called her long-term partner, Wang, whose number he got from her kids. Mayong and Wang lived together in Florida.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
Our card this week is Myung Hyung, the Ten of Spades from Mississippi. Having recently sold the nail salon that she owned for years in Pensacola, Florida, 51-year-old Myung was enjoying her well-earned retirement. The mother of three spent her newly cleared-up schedule with her long-term partner at home, or...
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
When questioned, Wang said that he was working offshore, as he often did as a fisherman during Mayong's trip to Biloxi casinos. It was only once he got back home in October that he discovered Mayong was nowhere to be found.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
Wang told D-Back that Mayong had been talking about taking a trip home to Vietnam to visit family. So D-Back immediately began checking airlines and reaching out to federal agencies that track international travel.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
So with neither Mae Ong's partner nor her children knowing what happened in Biloxi, Dibak was left to try and piece together her last movements on his own.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
Employees at the Imperial Palace confirmed that Mayong had checked in to that hotel on September 27th and paid with cash for a three-day stay that she had booked in advance. D-Back was able to find activity on her player's card that first day, the 27th, and then again on September 29th and 30th.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
When Diebeck called the other casino, the Beau Ravage, he found out that Mayong had also pre-booked a room there from October 1st to the 3rd. But she never showed up to check in. And after the 30th, there was no more activity on her player's card at any casino in the area. Now, of course, it is possible that she was staying at the casino and just playing games without swiping her card.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
But without any more activity to track, Deepak was stuck. None of the other hotels or casinos in the area had any record of her either staying or playing around this time. The same was true for the local law enforcement agencies, the hospitals, even the coroner's offices. None had any information about Mayong or any unidentified Asian women who matched her description.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
Now, you might be thinking, because I know I was, that surveillance at casinos is pretty intense, like hard for someone to go missing kind of intense. Casinos usually have not only high definition cameras like covering every inch of the floor, but also on the ground security teams constantly monitoring everyone and everything around them.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
Problem was, the surveillance cameras from the Biloxi casinos where she would have been playing only stored footage for around a week. And because Mae Young wasn't reported missing until over a month after she was last in contact with anyone, most evidence of her movements in Biloxi had been deleted by the time D-Back got on the case.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
There was one piece of technology, though, that did still have data even over a month out. And that was Mayung's cell phone.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
It turned out she was in contact with a handful of people prior to her disappearance. D-Back tried to reach out to all of them. Most, it seemed, were friends that she maybe gambled with, and many of them hadn't answered their calls. I mean, to be exact, Mayong made 15 phone calls between 9.30 p.m. and 3 a.m. on October 3rd and 4th, and none of them were picked up.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
14 of these calls, including Mayong's last, were to the same man. When D-Back called that number, the man said that he had met Mayong gambling on a previous trip and that the two had sort of become friends.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
The last call that was answered was placed just before 9.30 p.m. It was to a friend that we'll call Bob. Bob told D-Back that during that conversation, he made plans to meet up with Mayong at the Imperial Palace that night, October 3rd. When Bob got there, he noticed Mayong had brought another woman, someone he didn't recognize.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
D-Back doesn't know if someone called this supposed cab or if it was already nearby or if it was really even a legitimate cab at all. Because to this day, he hasn't been able to pinpoint the company or the driver of that car. And it is after this 4 a.m. pickup that Mayong essentially goes off the grid. Now, people continue to call her phone, but she never picked up again.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
Now, because Mayong's phone continued to get calls, though, it did continue to ping cell towers. Ordinarily, this could give investigators a general idea of the area where someone is. But not in this case. The towers that it was hitting on were kind of a red herring.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
D-Back was never able to locate Mayong's physical phone. But he was interested in learning more about Bob and the other woman that she was last seen with.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
So D-Back tried to see if the casino employees knew anything about this mystery woman. And that's when things sort of took a turn.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
In September of 2008, Mayong boarded a bus from Pensacola, Florida to Biloxi, Mississippi for a gambling trip, something that she'd recently gotten into the habit of. Here's Biloxi assistant chief of police, Chris Deback, the investigator on her case today.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
D-Back tried to identify this woman, but other than searching for a player's card, which he couldn't find, there wasn't much he could do without surveillance or a paper trail. And we don't know how the mystery woman or Bob's nights ended after Mayong allegedly left. According to D-Back, there was nothing to suggest that Bob was involved in Mayong's disappearance.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
And though all of the new information he provided was helpful, there were still tons of gaps in the timeline. And honestly, even more questions.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
By the end of November, D-Back hadn't received so much as one tip from the public. It was starting to feel like there was nothing more he could do. But on December 5th, just as he was on the verge of losing hope, D-Back got a call from a waitress at the casino. She told him that just the day before, she had seen Mae Young and she wasn't alone.
The Deck
My-Dung Tran (10 of Spades, Mississippi)
The waitress who said she saw Mae Young on December 4th told D-Back that she recognized her because she had served her at the casino many times before.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
He had some charges back in 2012 from a fight that he'd gotten into, and he'd been involved in a domestic violence incident with his child's mother in 2013 that resulted in an arrest for third-degree assault, but then nothing after that. It's not clear if he served time for any of those charges. By all accounts, at the time of his death, Day Day was a family man.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
He was a devoted son and a father of three, a son and two daughters, all under the age of five. And he may have been selling weed on the side, but his ambitions were bigger. His brother, Daryl, was creating a fashion brand, and Day Day was really getting into helping him develop the brand, like designing t-shirts and stuff. Here's his sister again, Keisha.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Day-Day was the first to tear himself away from the TV and went outside to wait for his mom by the blue Lexus that they shared as she finished getting ready. But his mom, who will call Cynthia to protect her privacy, got caught up in the show again. And she didn't have her hearing aids in, so if he called out to her or honked the horn, it didn't register.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Detectives talked to Daryl, who struggled to think of anyone who would have wanted to hurt Day Day. He told police he could only think of one thing. Daryl said Day Day had gotten into a fight five years before the shooting with a guy who we're going to call Larry.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Records show that the fight happened the morning of March 3rd, 2012, when Larry and Day Day encountered each other at a Subway sandwich shop. They'd apparently had some kind of previous beef over money, and on that day, things escalated. According to police records, Larry was the primary aggressor and ended up with a small cut on his wrist.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Police responded to the scene and the men were charged with criminal mischief and breach of peace, which are the charges from 2012 that I mentioned earlier. And this fight really didn't seem like anything major. Detective Slezicki called it just like a scuffle.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
But the disagreement may have continued later that day when apparently shots rang out at the Hockenham apartments where Day Day and his mother were both living at the time. Day Day told officers that he had been walking between his mom's apartment and a friend's when he heard the shots.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
And the investigators determined that the unidentified shooter seemed to have been aiming at the building that Day Day had been visiting earlier that day. Now, police never found the shooter back then, so who fired, who the target was, and what the motive was were all questions left unanswered.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Detective Slezicki said, it's hard to imagine that someone would hold a grudge for five years over a fight in a sandwich shop, but you never know. So while it's not much of a lead to chase down, it was really one of the only two that detectives ever had in this case.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
And the thing that made it a little more interesting was the fact that police had actually gotten an anonymous tip that pointed to Larry too. The tipster said that Larry may have been the one to shoot Day-Day. Though, in all fairness, the tipster didn't say why. And it's possible it was just someone like Daryl who remembered that fight five years before.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
There's no information about how Larry felt about that fight, whether he knew anything about Day Day's murder or what kind of car he was driving back in 2017. Because the thing is, police never talked to him as part of their investigation. A fight from five years back just didn't feel like enough of a lead for them to chase down.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Our reporters tried to reach Larry, but he didn't return our calls or our messages. About two months after Day Day's shooting, there was another tip that came in investigators did think was worth digging into. In February 2018, a guy in East Hartford who was arrested in a totally unrelated case tried to trade some information to cut a deal.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
This guy, a confidential informant, tipped Detective Sulzycki off to a man who went by the street name Bleak. The informant said that he was with Bleak in a red BMW and saw a gun that Bleak was selling for $500. But when he tried to take a closer look at the gun, Bleak stopped him.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
The TV was all she could hear until there was a sudden knocking on her door. When she answered, Cynthia saw her neighbor, Josh, who calmly said something she almost couldn't make sense of. Someone shot Day Day.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Detective Slezicki said that it took two months, but eventually in April 2018, he learned Bleak's identity. He was living nearby in Windsor, Connecticut, so he phoned an officer over at Windsor PD who actually knew exactly where Bleak was, the hospital.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
But Bleak just said he didn't know anything about the gun or Day Day's murder. And without any further evidence, that was the end of that. Over the last seven years, not much else has come in.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
After Day Day's case was put on a cold case playing card deck sometime between 2019 and 2020, the East Hartford police hung a poster-sized version of the card in their lockup in case anyone who comes in recognizes the case and has information.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Most recently, Detective Slizicki got another name from another confidential informant, the name of a possible suspect who this CI said might have killed Dede due to a drug-related dispute. So the detective got an idea. He applied for a geofence warrant. This type of warrant can identify electronic devices like phones that have entered or exited a designated area during a specific time.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
In this case, police were looking for phones that went into or left the parking lot at the time of Day Day's shooting. They were hoping if this list came back with this suspect's name on it, it might be the proof they need to back up this tip.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
One phone belonged to a woman who had called 911 that afternoon when she heard screaming and yelling. Another belonged to a friend of Day Day's family who had been visiting earlier that day and had left before the shooting. The third phone belonged to a contractor who'd been working there. And the fourth phone belonged to a child who had just been getting off the bus.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
None of the numbers belonged to the man named by the tipster.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
None of the numbers belonged to the driver of that gold car from the traffic stop either. Our reporter asked Detective Slezicki whether any of those four people who did come up on the geofence warrant happened to drive a gold or silver Buick. And he said that the student was too young to drive and the contractor was driving a work van.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
He doesn't know what kind of car the other two people had in 2017. But they had been eliminated through other means. He said his theory is that the shooter either didn't have a phone on them that day, or if they did, they weren't running any Google apps on their phone at the time of the shooting that would have allowed them to be picked up by the geofence warrant.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
It's also possible that the shooter didn't show up as entering or exiting the apartment complex around that time because maybe they didn't. Maybe they were already there and stayed there. Cynthia told our reporter that she has racked her brain for theories about who might have killed her son, and she always comes back to one thing.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
She thinks it's someone who lives in the Hockenham apartment complex. She called it an inside job. Cynthia has been living in those apartments for about 30 years, and she said that when someone from outside their little community comes in and does something bad, people talk.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
The fact that people have been seemingly so tight-lipped about her son's death makes it seem to her like they're scared of snitching on someone who they know, like a neighbor who would know right where to find them if they did speak up.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Whether or not the shooter themselves lives in the complex, Detective Slezicki and the family agree that there must be people living there who at least saw or heard something that they haven't told police yet. And he agrees that they're likely not speaking up because they're probably scared.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
That fear is very real. Keisha and Cynthia told our reporter Taylor that they're scared too.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
That was Day Day's mom you just heard. Day Day was lying next to the car, a pool of blood spreading out beneath him as neighbors looked on in horror. Cynthia shouted to one of them to bring a towel to try and stop the bleeding. She could see her son's eyes moving, so she just kept talking to him, letting him know that he wasn't alone and that help was on the way.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Cynthia still lives in the apartment she lived in when her son died, which means that every day she lives with the fear that her son's killer could be right next door, right around the corner, someone she sees at the mailbox or passes in the hallway. Nobody would never, ever know my pain.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Walk around in a constant state of paranoia because you don't know. Although he doesn't often have updates in the case, Detective Slezicki and Cynthia take walks together pretty regularly. And he's trying to support Day Day's family in other ways, too. He recently met Day Day's son. At 12 years old, he looks just like his dad and is starting to fit into his sneakers that his father collected.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Day Day's mom and sister go to Day Day's son's football games, too. Day Day was a basketball guy himself, spending a ton of his childhood and teenage years shooting hoops in the neighborhood. And they know that he would have loved being a sports dad.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Day Day's youngest daughter has no memories of her father, but her siblings talk about him all the time. His middle daughter recently turned 10 and asked to honor her dad at her own birthday celebration. She wanted her birthday cake to say, long live daddy. So it did. Cynthia remembers him by keeping photos of Day Day all over her home.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Cynthia remained by Day Day's side till help got there, and she even stayed with him as he was rushed to the hospital by ambulance. About the same time, Detective Paul Sulzycki, who would become the lead investigator on the case, rushed to the scene with his partner after hearing a radio dispatch about the shooting.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
We asked Cynthia and Keisha what they would want to say to Day Day's killer if they could speak to them. And what would help them feel like they have a little more closure.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Cynthia says whether the killer ever comes forward, she won't stop seeking justice. She tells Dede that every day, speaking to his portrait and to his grave, which she visits weekly when the weather allows. And I'd be like, Daddy, give me a sign, something.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Detective Slezicki said any small piece of information in this case could be huge for the investigation. They're especially looking for any information about a potential motive. Anyone who had a problem with Day Day or any vehicles seen leaving the scene of Day Day's murder. The detective said anyone with information can call him directly at 860-291-7544.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Or you can contact the East Hartford Police Department at 860-528-4401. The Deck is an Audiochuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis. To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
A single gunshot had echoed through the parking lot minutes before, and 26-year-old Deshaun Lawson lay bleeding to death on the cold asphalt. Two separate sightings of a metallic car could hold the key to who killed him, and police hope to track that car down with your help. I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck. Deshawn, also known as Day Day to his family, was close to his mom.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Detective Sulzycki said that he and his partner didn't personally stick around to talk to this guy because they had a crime scene to get to.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
When they arrived at the scene of the shooting, there wasn't much in the way of physical evidence for them to work with. No shell casings or objects left behind by their killer. The only thing that stood out was a blood smear on the side of the car, but that later was determined to be Day-Day's. There were, however, plenty of potential witnesses.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Detective Slzycki had noted 25 to 30 people gathered just outside the crime scene perimeter when he first arrived. And the sight of that many people just standing around while a victim's blood was still soaking into the ground surprised him.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
But every person they talked to said they didn't have anything to offer as far as eyewitness accounts. They didn't see the shooting happen or hear anything significant before or after. At the same time they were hitting brick wall after brick wall, Day-Day's family, his mom and his sister Keisha included, were anxiously waiting for news about his condition.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Here is Keisha and Cynthia recalling that.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
When Detective Sulzycki got the news of Day Day's death and went to the hospital, he found Day Day's family huddled in the hospital chapel, just desperate for answers. Cynthia didn't know who would have done this, but she demanded that investigators talk to Josh, the neighbor who had knocked on her door to deliver the devastating news. She wasn't buying that no one saw or heard anything.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
She said that Josh in particular was always looking out his window and she was adamant that he must have heard or seen more than he was letting on. When investigators went back to speak with Josh, he told them that he was home with a friend when he heard what he thought was a tire popping. Now, he looked out his window and he saw Day Day on the ground next to the Lexus.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Our card this week is Deshawn Day-Day Lawson, the King of Hearts from Connecticut. Three days before Christmas in 2017, a group of kids piled off a school bus in East Hartford, Connecticut. But instead of happily rushing home to start their winter break, they stepped straight into a crime scene.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
This apartment complex had multiple large parking lots with buildings wrapped around them, kind of in like a U-shape. And Josh's apartment was close to where Day Day lay, so he had a clear line of sight. Detective Sulzycki said that he also interviewed the friend that was with Josh, but as sure as Cynthia was that he had to have seen something, they were both equally adamant that they hadn't.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
And they insisted that they had nothing to do with it either. And this was the general story from almost everyone, even the multiple people who called 911. They heard a loud pop and only after did they look out their windows to see Day Day hurt, either leaning up against the car or lying on the ground.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
And most people claimed they didn't look out soon enough to see anyone else there or anyone fleeing the scene. That is, except for two separate women who might have actually seen more. The first woman was the one who alerted police to the gold car that had led to that traffic stop. She described it as a four-door sedan, but she wasn't able to tell police the make, model, or plate number.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
When patrol officers were able to stop that gold car that they spotted driving away from the apartment complex, they learned that the driver lived in the apartments too, so it wasn't necessarily suspicious that he was driving out of that area.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Police were able to verify with one of this guy's coworkers that he was on his way to a shift at work. Detective Slzycki said that the driver had come from the same parking lot where Day Day had been shot, but it was possible that he'd driven out just before the shot rang out and didn't actually hear or see anything.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Apparently, the patrol officer who stopped him also searched his car and didn't find any weapons. They checked his hands for gunshot residue, too, and didn't find anything there. So at that point, he was free to go and not considered a person of interest. But whether there was another gold car they should be looking for remained an open question.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
A second woman who witnessed more provided police with perhaps the most significant tip they'd received thus far. She said that she was cooking in her kitchen minutes before the shooting and she actually noticed Day Day before she heard the shot. She said she looked out a window in her back door and she saw Day Day parking the Lexus.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
She said he backed the car into a spot and that a few minutes later, a silver four-door car backed into the spot next to the Lexus's driver's side. Now, she described an emblem on the hood of the car that Detective Sulzycki said would match up with a Buick logo. She said the two vehicles were there for probably 10 minutes when she heard a bang.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
And at first, she figured it was her son making noises upstairs, but then she heard screaming outside. So she looked out the same window and saw Cynthia running to Day Day, who was now lying next to the driver's side door of his car, bleeding from his mouth. And the parking spot next to him was now empty. So this woman ran outside to try and help.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
She's actually the one who went to get a towel to try and stop the bleeding. And when she returned, she tried to talk to Day Day, but he was just gasping for air.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
And that bullet struck his lower back. But because there was no shell casing found at the scene, investigators figured that the shooter either used a revolver, which doesn't eject shell casings, or fired from inside a vehicle, meaning that the casing would have been ejected into their car.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Now, they'd already searched that gold car and eliminated the driver as a suspect, and investigators were never able to pin down any other vehicle that was coming or going from the scene around that time, silver, gold, or otherwise. It's also not clear if the two women who called 911 actually saw different cars or if they saw the same car but just described different metallic colors.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
And police don't even know if that gold car they stopped was a Buick. There's no record in the report of the vehicle's make. And Detective Slzycki just said that he remembers it being older and maybe on the bigger side for a sedan. Detectives really needed more information to try and track any potential suspects down. So they returned to the neighborhood.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
They did that multiple times, and detectives knew people in the Hockenham apartments had Day Day on their mind. Neighbors had even spray-painted his name on one of the buildings in his memory. But all investigators heard again and again was that no one had seen or heard anything that day. Or at least, that's what they were telling police.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
But what they were telling each other was a different story. Because by this point, the rumor mill was churning.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Detective Selzycki said one rumor was that some money had gone missing from Cynthia's workplace, and maybe Day Day's murder was connected to that somehow. Like maybe someone was angry about the missing cash and retaliated, or some sort of dispute had started. But that rumor got squashed almost immediately.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Some of the other rumors were drug-related because along with $100 found on his body, investigators had also found rolling papers, which was really no surprise because Day Day was known to smoke marijuana and detectives heard that he was likely selling it too. And that was pretty much confirmed by activity on his phone records, too.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
It was going around that maybe Day Day was the victim of someone upset that he was selling on their turf. But that tip, which came in from someone incarcerated hoping for a lighter sentence, also went nowhere.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
So with very little physical evidence from the scene and so little useful information from witnesses, investigators searched for surveillance video, hoping a camera might have captured something. But there weren't any.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
So close, in fact, that he stopped by her place in the Hockenham Park apartment complex almost every day for one reason or another. And on December 22nd, 2017, his reason was to pick her up so they could go shopping and get some last-minute Christmas gifts for his sister and his kids. But just as they were heading out the door, they got distracted by a particularly dramatic episode of Chicago Fire.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Detectives also scoured the area, but all the cameras at fast food chains, gas stations, and private residences were either pointing in the wrong direction or weren't functioning at the time of the shooting. All police had to go off of was the bullet that entered Day Day's body. But they had nothing to compare that bullet to. And it was so damaged that they couldn't even determine its caliber.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
At the same time, police were navigating a tricky relationship with Day Day's family.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Then there was the Lexus, which had been towed from the scene. It belonged to Cynthia, and she initially wouldn't give police permission to search it. So cops ended up having to get a search warrant. Detective Sulzycki said he wondered if maybe there was something in the car that the family didn't want police to find. But Cynthia said that was never the case.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
She said that another detective, who had apparently rubbed the family the wrong way by having a bit of an attitude, asked her to search the car while they were still at the hospital that day, like right after she got the news that Day Day had died.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
And Cynthia said that she was just such a wreck that she wasn't really thinking clearly, so she deferred to Day Day's brother, Daryl, who at the time told her not to answer any questions. So she didn't consent to the search.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
Now, police towed the car from the apartment, and when they did finally get a warrant and conducted the search, they only found run-of-the-mill stuff like candy, CDs, some coupons, and artwork Day Day's kids had made. They also found out that Day Day had a second phone that they didn't initially get their hands on. It took like a month or two after the shooting before they did.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
But Cynthia said that she wasn't purposefully holding anything back. She knew Day Day had a second phone, but she just didn't know where it was until she moved his bed one day and the phone just fell to the ground. So she said that's when she turned it over to police. Again, she's not trying to hide anything or make the investigation more difficult. That's just how it played out.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
When police did get to search that phone, they only found evidence that it was maybe a burner phone that he used for selling weed. There was nothing of evidentiary value to the homicide investigation. Detective Slezicki said that despite any bumps police experienced with the family at first, they do have a good relationship now.
The Deck
Dashaun “Dae Dae” Lawson (King of Hearts, Connecticut)
And while everyone is on the same page that drugs could have been a motive for his death and might have exposed Day Day to some riskier people, there's been nothing that's jumped out at police. Day Day seemed like a low-level dealer, not like a big fish, as Detective Slezicki puts it, and certainly not a career criminal.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
The only thing investigators could really do to try and find out more about Jim's possible connections back in Mexico was to talk to all of his known associates there. And while no one could or would say that he had a hitman, some of them accused him of other potentially illegal activities.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
One of Jim's ex-girlfriends also said that he had her bring a significant amount of money back to the U.S. at one point. Now, if these allegations were all true, that would mean it was possible that he may have been hiding funds and keeping things off the books, like maybe money to pay a hitman.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Speaking with Lieutenant Young today, though, there are things that don't perfectly line up with this being a murder-for-hire plot. One, would an assailant really come to Carol's condo unarmed without their own weapon? I mean, I guess it'd be safe to assume that Carol would have kitchen knives in a home, but I don't know, close to 15 stab wounds? That screams personal to me, not a hit.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
And if the assumption is that the killer could have used that nearby ladder to climb in Carol's already open balcony, well, that's just pure luck. And there's something specific about the scene that feels ultra-personal, more than just the close to 15 stab wounds. Remember that pillow, the one that detectives believe was maybe used to muffle Carol's screams?
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Lieutenant Young mentioned that it may have had a more significant meaning. Here he is reading from a note that Carol had written that investigators held onto as evidence.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
We have no idea where this story about Jim's father's wife being, quote, dealt with came from, nor does Lieutenant Young. He guessed that the whole idea about the pillow over the face had maybe just been a rumor or a threat that got passed down or something.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
And while I think it's significant that Carol seemed to be predicting her own demise at the hands of Jim, I don't know if we can place too much stock in the pillow itself. But who knows? Pillow or no pillow, it seems like everything kept pointing back to Jim.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
And the stories they were getting from his friends and relatives that were giving context to the demise of Jim and Carol's relationship, let's just say that those were pretty telling.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Jim and Carol's only child, Virginia, was 22 at the time of Carol's murder. She and her husband, Carlos, lived there in Naples with their two kids, and they spent a lot of time with Carol. They'd even lived with her in the condo for a brief stint when they'd first moved there and were getting on their feet. So they had a front row seat to everything going on with the divorce.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Naturally, investigators needed to talk to them. And when they were asked about what they were up to the night that Carol was killed, Virginia's response had detectives raising their eyebrows.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Here's Lieutenant Young going over Virginia's statement. It was a long line.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
To detectives, the whole thing just felt off. And while they were able to verify parts of her story through an ATM and grocery store receipt, they couldn't help but wonder if maybe she'd forced those errands in order to create an alibi for the night. Outside of those stops, detectives can't account for her movements the entire evening.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
But she said that after the grocery store, she'd rushed home so that Carlos could make his overnight shift cleaning at a nearby country club. Now, colleagues confirmed that he was there around midnight, as he was scheduled to be.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
He had a half-hour break between 2 and 2.30 a.m., and he would have gotten off at around 6.15 a.m., which, logistically speaking, would have been enough time to get to Carol's house, about 10 minutes away, and move Carol's car. It also wasn't lost on detectives that Carlos fit the vague description of the male driver.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
One of the possible theories detectives had was that maybe Virginia had gone to her mom's house that night while Carlos was at home with the kids, sleeping before his shift. And not through the balcony using the ladder, but either with her own key or maybe her mom had just let her in.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Virginia could have initiated an attack and she could have killed Carol and then Carlos may have come to the rescue to help her stage the car by the airport the next morning after she told him what happened. With the whole idea being that everyone would just assume that it had to be Jim due to the impending divorce. He'd be the obvious bet. But the big question that we had was, why?
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Why would detectives even have a reason to believe that Virginia or Carlos would want to kill Carol?
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Apparently, though, that's not how it worked. From what Lieutenant Young could tell, although they would have potentially gained a nice condo and some cash, the divorce settlement was not finalized. Carol's premature death meant all tangible property would remain with Jim. But there was another possible theory as to motive.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Remember, without giving too many otherwise private details away, Lieutenant Young said, and there is documentation that shows this too, that Virginia had disclosed to her family and police that there had been misconduct from her father. So the theory then became perhaps it was possible that Virginia had some sort of resentment towards her mother over that. But this was purely speculation.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
From what we can gather, it seems like Virginia didn't confide in her mom about what had allegedly taken place until just before Carol and Jim's separation. And when she did, it seems like Carol took it seriously. I mean, that's why she ultimately decided to leave Jim. Now, there's no sign that she had been trying to sweep this under the rug either.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Lieutenant Young showed us a note where Carol was telling another loved one about the situation and expressed her support for her daughter. So there doesn't seem to be any proof that this had caused a rift between them that would have led to the brutal attack. But nonetheless, investigators still worked this angle to make sure that nothing was missed.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
In similar fashion to how the investigation into Jim played out, they wondered if someone else connected to Virginia or Carlos could have been involved. They looked into two male colleagues who would have been working with Carlos at the country club that night who could have helped him.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
One of them went back to Mexico shortly after the murder, so I guess they wanted to check into that, make sure nothing was sketchy about the trip. But it seemed to turn out to be nothing. Honestly, a lot of it was feeling like it might be nothing because according to Carlos, he and Virginia had a good relationship with Carol. He said they didn't fight or argue.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
And since they were young parents, they sometimes relied on Carol for both financial help and childcare back then. Our reporter Madison was able to connect with Carlos virtually back in December.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
And while Carlos told Madison that he remembers his routine from around that time, that he would have been sleeping and then working the overnight shift as usual, he didn't remember anything about Virginia going to the store. Not that it didn't happen, just that it didn't ring a bell. He also couldn't say if shopping late at night like that was commonplace for her or not.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
It sounds like he doesn't even recall that her alibi had been an issue or something that the detectives were skeptical of back then. He said the investigators kept him in the dark about the case. What he does remember vividly is how devastated Virginia was by her mom's murder.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Madison was able to reach Virginia via text. And while she thanked us for our interest in her mom's case, she didn't want to participate in this podcast. Madison tried calling Jim Clement for this episode too, but as soon as she mentioned Carol, he said, nope, thank you, bye-bye. And he quickly hung up.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
So you can see that while police might have had their suspicions about those closest to Carol, there was nothing concrete they could work with. So the case languished until around 2001. That's when detectives took another look at the case files to see if they could make another push. Now, Jim still wasn't willing to do a sit-down interview, but he did end up picking up the phone.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
And when he was asked if he killed Carol or knew who did, he said no. A detective actually recorded the call and ran it through a computer voice stress analyzer, and the results indicated that he was telling the truth. Though there is this one thing that still rubs Lieutenant Young the wrong way, something detectives learned in the years after Carol's murder.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Another former girlfriend had an interesting anecdote about how Jim tried to explain away his former wife Carol's death. She said that Jim was very secretive and he told her that his ex-wife was killed in a car crash. Now, by 2003, Virginia and Carlos were divorced, but both living in Texas. So detectives went there to talk to them again and conduct polygraphs.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
During a pre-interview, Virginia told an investigator that among other things, her father, Jim, was mentally and physically abusive. She said she suspected that he was the one who killed Carol. She agreed to the polygraph and the results came back as inconclusive. So they made plans for her to take a second one later. Next, Carlos came in for his pre-interview and polygraph.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
He also said that he suspected his former father-in-law, Jim, was the one who killed Carol because he was, quote, explosive.
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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
It seems like he quickly reneged that answer, though. English is Carlos' second language, so to be fair, maybe this was miscommunicated.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Carlos told Madison that while he didn't even know he failed the polygraph, he does recall the overall tone of that meeting in Texas as being accusatory toward him and Virginia. He could tell that investigators had it in their heads that they were involved in some way, even though he'd originally assumed that he was just being asked there because maybe there'd been an update in the case.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Detectives left Texas believing that both Carlos and Virginia knew more than they were saying, but they couldn't take it any further. Here's Madison again speaking with Carlos.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Carlos also said he does not believe Virginia could be involved either. Even though they eventually got divorced, he said she was never aggressive or violent. He doesn't think she'd be capable of something like that. And specifically, he doesn't think she had any reason to want to hurt her own mom. Police didn't actually have anything incriminating to hold either of them on.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
So they were forced to leave it alone and head back home to Southwest Florida and back to square one. Starting around 2004 or so, investigators started to pick things back up once again, now with a focus on DNA. It seems like they spent a few years trying to obtain DNA from potential persons of interest in hopes of being able to use it for comparison in the future.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
From what they could tell, this didn't look like a burglary gone wrong. In fact, the only thing missing was Carol's car. So it appeared that the sole purpose of whoever was inside Carol's home was to come in, kill her, and leave. And maybe through the sliding glass door that led out to Carol's second-story balcony as it had been left wide open.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Whether it was voluntary or through a warrant, they eventually got samples from literally every one of relevance that we've mentioned in this episode. By 2007, lab results yielded enough DNA from Carol's fingernail clippings that they saved as evidence to be able to make a profile good enough for direct comparison.
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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Not good enough to be put into CODIS, but it was something that they could work with. The DNA they found was a male profile, which was interesting because evidence does point to a struggle taking place inside the condo, and Carol could have gotten this DNA under her nails by fighting off an attacker. But that's not the only possibility.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
It was such a small amount that it could have just as easily been transferred DNA from someone innocuous. For this reason, Detective Young doesn't believe that anyone brought up in this investigation so far can actually be ruled out for certain.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
But they did compare this to all their possible persons of interest anyways, including but not limited to Jim, Virginia, Carlos, and even that man William, who some of the neighbors brought up during the canvassing. They also ended up getting DNA from an ex-boyfriend of Carol's, a guy named Robert, who she dated off and on for about a year.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
But they'd broken up like six months or so before her death. All in all, none of those people were a match to this DNA. It wouldn't be until 2021 when Lieutenant Young took a crack at the case and started reviewing the evidence for himself. And that's when some more progress would be made. He thought about those two hairs that they'd found on Carol.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Hairs that they still weren't able to say for sure if they came from Carol or someone else.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Even though it would be used up, what little DNA they had left from the fingernail clippings, they decided they were worth retesting to see if they could come up with a stronger profile, like a CODIS-level profile. And finally, in December of 2023, Lieutenant Young got some good news. The profile was officially in.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
That profile has been entered into CODIS, but unfortunately, as of this recording, there have been no hits. And also, unfortunately, the type of processing that they do to get a CODIS sample is different than what would be needed to work a DNA sample with investigative genetic genealogy. And since the full sample was used, that second one isn't an option now.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
But plans to get a few more items retested are already in the works. Two things that the killer would have likely touched, the pillow and the murder weapon, and Carol's underwear. Even though there weren't any signs of sexual assault, there was blood on her underwear that caught detectives' attention.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
If the killer injured themselves during a violent attack, there's a chance that they may have left their own blood behind. This revived effort in Carol's case gives her younger sister Linda a renewed sense of hope that all is not lost. That maybe someday, maybe even someday soon, there could be justice for Carol, answers for her family.
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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Linda told us about how their devastated mother had to spend the rest of her life before she passed away, living in fear, always looking over her shoulder, worried that whoever had come for Carol might one day come for her. But now, perhaps the tables have turned.
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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Linda said that Carol was always taking care of her growing up. She was a gifted painter. She was adventurous and independent. She was always focused on what she could be doing to better her own life and the lives of those around her.
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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Linda held on to a list of goals that Carol had left behind from 1989. A catalog of the things that she would have liked her life to eventually become. Things that, if she hadn't been taken so tragically from this earth, her sister Linda would have likely done with her.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
If you know anything about the murder of Carol Clement in Naples, Florida in March of 1992, you are urged to come forward. You can remain anonymous by submitting a tip through Southwest Florida Crime Stoppers online or by calling them at 1-800-780-8477. We'll also have all the ways that you can contact the Naples police directly in the show notes and the blog post for this episode.
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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
The Deck is an audio Chuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis. To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
More than just the latter was collected. They pretty much gathered up anything they thought could have been touched by their perpetrator, including Carol's clothing, all of the knives, the carpet, and her fingernail clippings, thinking that maybe she fought back during the struggle. They also collected two unknown hairs found on Carol's arms.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Or could the killer be someone much closer to Carol than they previously assumed? I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck. Lieutenant Robert Young told us it was late Sunday morning, March 8th, 1992, when a woman named Welma stopped by her 51-year-old daughter's place on Gulf Shore Boulevard North in Naples, Florida.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
All of that would be sent off to the FDLE lab, while other investigators spoke with Carol's neighbors in the then-called Holly Green's Villa Condominium community, which was just walking distance from the beach.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Since it was such a tight space full of mostly retirees, officers had a hunch someone in the complex may have seen or heard something. And they were in luck. There were two different couples who reported seeing what's referred to in the old police reports as a prowler, someone who was lurking around the complex the night Carol was killed.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Our card this week is Carol Clement, the Ace of Hearts from Florida. When a beloved mother and grandmother is found stabbed to death inside her own home in an affluent seaside community, detectives were immediately suspicious of her soon-to-be ex-husband. But when his alibi seemed to check out, they were compelled to look at less obvious alternatives. Was this a murder-for-hire plot?
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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
A neighbor actually ended up calling the cops about this mystery guy, concerned that he was a peeping Tom. Officers with the Naples PD responded to that call, but by the time they were notified about the situation and then got out there, they didn't spot anyone suspicious. But the unusual activity in the area was far from over.
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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Here is another witness report that officers got while canvassing from a man who had been renting out one of the units.
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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
And then there was the most crucial observation yet regarding what had become of Carol's missing car.
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Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Among all the witness statements, there was a name that kept getting tossed around. William. William. Now, it's not clear if he fit the description of the person pulling away in the car or the, quote, prowler, but it seems like his name got thrown into the mix because he'd been known to hang around the complex uninvited and he had a reputation of being inappropriate with women.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Maybe even more worrisome, he allegedly entered the apartment of another woman at some point. Unclear if this was before or after Carol's homicide, though.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
William was definitely interesting to investigators, but someone far closer to Carol than her neighbors, her mom, Welma, gave the investigators an even more compelling name to look into. And that person would become their first real suspect, Carol's estranged husband, James Clement.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Wellma told detectives that James had connections, suggesting that if it wasn't him who was responsible for Carol's murder, then he would have had the means to hire someone else to do it for him.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Detectives learned that Carol and James, or Jim as most people call him, they'd been separated for about three years or so, with Jim now living in Northern Virginia and Carol in their Naples condo while working in real estate. But the two were still in the process of a nasty divorce battle, one that was actually set to be finalized in about a week's time. So the question was, where was Jim now?
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
What were his movements? What were Carol's? And had they crossed paths in her last day alive? From speaking with Carol's neighbors and loved ones, police started putting together a timeline of her last movements leading up to when she was discovered. She was seen washing her car in the complex parking lot at some point late that afternoon.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Then, there was a friend who spoke to her on her landline at around 7.30 p.m. And in that call, they hadn't noted anything alarming. Now, another call came into Carol's line at 9 or 9.30 p.m., but this one, Carol didn't pick up. Now, the medical examiner gave a rough estimate that her time of death might have been sometime around midnight. So...
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
The question is, was Carol incapacitated in some way as early as 9 p.m., or was she just busy and didn't answer her phone? And if she was killed around midnight, what had the killer been doing for the somewhere around 7 hours between then and when her car was moved at around 7.15 in the morning? Investigators wondered why the killer would have even bothered taking the car anyway.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Did they not have their own ride? Did it have to be used as a getaway? And maybe it's the latter based on where they ended up locating Carol's white Ford Taurus the very next day on Monday night.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
And who would need to drive straight to an airport after committing a murder? Maybe someone who lived out of state. Though they hadn't been able to place Jim Clement in southwest Florida so far, investigators surmised that it was possible he had traveled there from northern Virginia to take care of the one person he saw as standing in the way of his financial future.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
Things didn't start looking any better for Jim once detectives made contact with him and he refused to talk, directing them to his attorney. They'd have to figure out what he'd been up to that night through their own groundwork. First, they found out that he'd been temporarily staying with a couple that he'd met through work while he was finishing out a job near the D.C. area.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
For what it's worth, from what investigators gathered, it doesn't seem like Jim was very close with the Nelms family. He was just renting from them. So it doesn't sound like they would have any incentive to cover for him in any way. And by the way, Jim doesn't fit the loose description of the Hispanic man seen pulling out in Carol's car the morning after her murder.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
So with no proof that Jim was in the state of Florida the night of the homicide, detectives needed to look into the possibility that he may have hired someone to kill his wife for him. I can only assume it was Jim's professional background that made investigators think he may have had the resources to pull something like that off.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
You see, he traveled extensively abroad during his time in the Navy, and he'd served as a U.S. diplomat in Guadalajara, Mexico. But trying to track down a mystery assailant, presumably from Mexico or who possibly had ties to Mexico, proved to be difficult.
The Deck
Carole Clement (Ace of Hearts, Florida)
The obvious first step was to look at all the flights to and from the country from around that time, especially since the setup with Carol's car at least made it look like someone had used it to flee. Detectives even checked local cab logs to see if anyone got dropped off in the area before the crime, since clearly they needed a car to get away. But nothing and nobody specific popped out.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
The clerk's description of the suspect, slim build and brown shoulder-length hair, was pretty darn close to what the witnesses at the Viva apartment said the guy they saw looked like, even down to the clothes. And it wasn't just the clerk who got a good look at him. Her husband and his friend both said that they'd be able to recognize the guy if they saw him again.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
And as he knocked on the door, he heard a man cry out, "'Oh, my God!' When the door opened, Dale saw a woman soaked in blood lying motionless on the floor. The man who opened the door had already called police, and as he ran to the parking lot to flag down first responders, Dale started CPR on the unresponsive woman.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
There was another detail described by the witnesses at both the Viva Apartments and the 7-11. The witnesses at the Viva Apartments said that their guy had run toward the Fairgreen Apartments, which is the complex immediately next door to the Viva Apartments. And the 7-Eleven clerk said that was the direction the suspect drove off in.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
So police began a search of the area for a two-door 1970s Navy Oldsmobile. And it wasn't long before they got a hit.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
David Good agreed to go down to the station to be interviewed. Police read him his rights, and he started talking. And this guy did not do himself any favors.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Here's Detective Gonzalez reading the report from the officer who interrogated David that day.
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Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
After that, David was pretty much done talking. David's roommates, his girlfriend Peggy and her brother Chris, both confirmed David's account that he and Peggy had a fight and that he left the apartment at around 10 p.m. Both Chris and Peggy said David had come home at around 3.15 in the morning, meaning that his story about abducting the clerk totally fits David.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
And he had no alibi for the time of Deborah's attack, just said he was driving around before the failed abduction that he admitted to. So while they arrest him for that, they unfortunately have nothing on him for Deborah's case. The clerk didn't report seeing any blood on David's white shirt. And the timeline didn't quite fit either.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
When police and paramedics arrived and began assessing the woman, the man who'd flagged them down told them that she was 25-year-old Deborah Sue Moore. They saw that Deborah had been stabbed at least once, and they weren't going to be able to care for her there, so they loaded her into an ambulance and rushed her to the local hospital.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
I mean, she'd estimated that he'd been in the store for about 20 minutes before the attempted abduction. And Deborah had been stabbed about 15 minutes before the abduction. So if that timing was right, he couldn't have been the killer. But David himself had estimated that he'd only been playing video games in the store for like five minutes before he approached the clerk.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
And who knows, maybe he changed his shirt or maybe he didn't get any blood on him. They did end up collecting his clothes, but there is nothing in the file about the results of that. They also searched David's apartment, but they didn't find anything of evidentiary value. Though that doesn't mean he wasn't in the clear. They weren't quite convinced yet that these two cases weren't connected.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
And in fact, when they really scoped out, when they looked beyond that incident, beyond Deborah's murder, they noticed some disturbing incidents in the time before. Before I tell you what comes next, it's worth pointing out, it's about to get complicated. And because of just how many people are about to enter this picture, we have made a map to help you keep track of all of it.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
All of the people that got pulled into this investigation one way or another. You can find that at thedeckpodcast.com or our show notes for this episode.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
On May 12th, just five days before Deborah's murder and the attempted abduction at 7-Eleven, a college student from University of Texas of the Permian Basin was attacked while she was riding her bike back to her dorm from the nearby Safeway grocery store at around 10.15 or 10.30 p.m.
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Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
The campus is about a half mile from the Viva Apartments and right across the street from where David Good lived at the University Garden Apartments. This assailant wrestled the bike away from this woman and then forced her at knife point into a pasture on the west side of the road, telling her that he wouldn't hurt her if she did exactly what he said.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
He then sexually assaulted her and afterwards he ordered her to lie down on her stomach and told her not to tell anyone what had happened.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Once her attacker was gone, the terrorized student got her clothing, put it back on, and when she looked out onto the road that passes the campus entrance, she saw her assailant in the distance. He was walking on the same side of the street as both the University Garden apartments, where David Good lived, and the Viva apartments, where Deborah was stabbed.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
But it wasn't long before official word came back that Deborah hadn't made it. By the time they got that news, detectives at the Viva Apartments were already kicked into high gear speaking with witnesses. First up, the occupant of apartment 51 and the man who'd called 911. And that's 23-year-old Charles Ezell.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
She reported the assault immediately to police. Then they took her to the hospital where they collected her clothing and took a sexual assault evidence kit.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
While detailed, it wasn't a descriptor that was on display. And for about a week, they had trouble locating suspects in her case. That is, until now, with David sitting right in front of them. But like the small time discrepancy in Deborah's case, there was one hurdle here, too. The hair color. In both of the current cases, the assailant had brown hair.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
But in this earlier attack, the student was positive that the man who assaulted her had blonde hair, like platinum blonde hair. Now, here's the other thing. They had initially made an arrest in that case because, coincidentally, right around the time of the attack, a picture of a blonde-haired employee at the Fairgreen Apartments ran in the Odessa American newspaper. This guy's name was Billy.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Now, this picture, it wasn't in connection to any crime. It was just a black-and-white picture of him, like, inspecting a fountain. But apparently, police took one look at that picture and thought, "'This looks like our guy.'" Then they took that newspaper photo to the student and asked her to make an ID. But she wasn't sure if it looked like her attacker because the picture was truly so bad.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Detectives went ahead and arrested this guy anyway on May 16th. But Detective Gonzalez says the fact that they showed the victim this picture before they did a photo lineup was a critical mistake.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
But that wouldn't be the last one for detectives to follow. Because in the days after the sexual assault, another woman came forward to share a chilling encounter that happened that very same night. This one at an auto body shop very close to the fair green apartments where Billy worked and that field where the student was assaulted.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
In interviews that morning and a few days later, he told them Debra had come over to his apartment at around 8.15 p.m. on the 16th. They'd met up with another couple, and the four of them went on a double date to a bar called The Brewery. And Charles estimated that they'd all left the bar sometime between 12.30 and 1.30 in the morning.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
This sounded like the description of the student's attacker, blonde hair and all. So it's easy to see why they looked at Billy right away for this one. I mean, it was for all the same unsubstantial reasons they had in the other case from the same night. Now, based on the case file, Gonzalez believes that Billy was released on bond just before Debra was killed on May 17th.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
So one might look at this and say, oh, maybe Billy should be on our suspect list for Debra's case. Maybe even the 7-Eleven case, too. But not so fast. Because remember David Good, the man who admitted to abducting the 7-Eleven clerk that was a quarter mile away from Viva Apartments? Well, that woman from the body shop actually had a troubling history with none other than David Good.
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Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
And according to notes from the investigator on the case at the time, one of David Good's past partners had worked at that same body shop and he had attacked her while she was working there.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
The thing that no one was able to get past, though, was the hair color. And don't worry, I checked, David Goode had not previously had bleach blonde hair that had been dyed brown. So even though the connection felt like more than just a weird coincidence, Maybe it really was just that. A weird coincidence. Maybe there really were multiple men preying on women in the same small area.
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Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Charles said that he and Debra had gone alone to eat at a Denny's before going back to his place at around 1.45 p.m. Here's Odessa Police Department's lead cold case detective, Lauren Gonzalez, who now is overseeing the case.
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Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Now, it seemed pretty clear that Billy wasn't the 7-Eleven perp since David Good had confessed to that crime. The two crimes on the 12th, the assault of the college student and the woman at the auto body shop, both seemed to be committed by the same perp. And then Debra's was still in question.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
On May 22nd, so this is just five days after Debra's murder, David Good voluntarily submitted to a polygraph exam with questions about Debra's death. But the results were inconclusive. And by May 27th, Good had changed his tune about even his possible involvement. I mean, he first told police he didn't know if he had or had not, but now he was telling them he definitely did not stab Debra.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Detectives didn't just write him off, but they kept following other leads that came in. And there was a growing list of alternate suspects to vet. A woman who lived at the Viva apartment said that her ex-boyfriend had been stalking her, and she was concerned that he was potentially violent and could have been in the area the night of Debra's death. Then there was a man named Eroberto.
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Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
He had been charged with a recent attack on a woman at her home in Crane, Texas, about 30 minutes south. And his wife lived in Odessa, not too far from the Viva apartments. Eroberto had an attorney representing him on that case, though, so detectives on Deborah's case were never able to even question him.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
And then there was a Viva Apartments employee who told police about a man who'd been repeatedly kicked off the property for loitering. But that tip also appeared to lead nowhere. There was even a tip connected to Debra's own brother, Roger.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
According to the police file, Debra's mother called Odessa police and told them Roger was in prison for rape and that the brother of his victim had threatened to harm Debra as some kind of revenge for what Roger had done to his sister. Frankly, it is chilling just how many men with and without connections to Debra were menaces to women then and there.
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Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
The police didn't seem to find any evidence to support these other guys as real suspects in Debra's case. There's also no mention in the case file of interviews with Deborah's second husband, Ed, or her first husband, Albert. They don't appear to have been suspects at all.
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Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
I mean, Albert didn't even live in the area, and by all accounts, Ed and Deborah maintained a good relationship while co-parenting their daughter, Brandy. In fact, Deborah had recently asked him to take custody of the little girl. That's where their daughter was the night Deborah had been murdered. So that left David Good and Tim Moore, Deborah's estranged third husband, square in the bullseye.
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Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
But when three other women were attacked in the same area that same week, investigators were forced to reconsider their theory and grapple with a bigger question. Did they have a serial predator on their hands? And that's a question that they are still asking to this very day. But perhaps with your help, they'll finally get an answer. I'm Ashley Flowers, and this is The Deck. Just before 3 a.m.
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Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
And Detective Gonzalez says that Tim started to seem less likely when he voluntarily submitted to a polygraph examination on June 26th.
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Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
But Detective Gonzalez says the examiner didn't ask Tim other important questions, like if he knew who killed Debra or if he had paid or asked someone else to do it. And those questions can't be asked now because Tim died a couple of years ago. But Detective Gonzalez thinks it is unlikely that he was at the scene that day.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
David Good, however, was looking more and more likely. And his former partner, the one who had worked at the auto body shop, she spoke with detectives on July 2nd, 1986. She described him as physically and sexually abusive during their relationship. And she shared an interesting tidbit of information with detectives.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Police noted that this former partner's description of his pubic hair matched the student's description of the man who'd sexually assaulted her days before Deborah's murder. It didn't seem like the student said anything about the color of her assailant's pubic hair. And regardless, that detail certainly wasn't enough evidence to charge David with that crime.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
So ultimately, David Good got off light on the crime that he had admitted to. He was convicted of a reduced charge of simple assault in the 7-11 case, and he was ordered to pay a fine, but he served no time. Then there wasn't enough evidence to charge him with Deborah's murder, and so the case languished.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Although there were other tips that came in over the years, including one mysterious call from an anonymous woman on August 24th, 1989.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Gonzalez would still love to talk to that woman who called in, or Ricky, if anyone knows who he is. Over the next few decades, the same names would bubble to the surface. In 1989, a letter came into police saying Tim Moore confessed to a friend that he killed Debra, but it didn't do much to move the needle.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Same in 2014, when the department reexamined the case and brought David Good back in for another round of questioning.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
That detective also talked to Peggy, the woman who had been dating David at the time of the crimes. Turns out she had gone on to marry and then divorce David. But both she and her brother Chris, their third roommate back in 1986, told police to just back off.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Detective Gonzalez says David Good died sometime after that last interview in 2014. But now that she's taken over the case, she is following up on every old lead, even if they wind up being dead ends. And she's following up on new leads, too. One of them that our reporting team helped her uncover. As we do with any story, we reached out to Debra's family for this episode.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
We were able to connect with Debra's older sister, Jana, who, to our surprise, had never been spoken to by police. So naturally, Detective Gonzalez didn't have anything about her in the case file. And this meant there was also nothing in the case file about the disturbing last call Jana had with her sister just days before she died.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
A few months before she died, Deborah called her older sister Jana and told her that she and Tim had been fighting and she'd had to go to the hospital for a shoulder injury. She said she was going to leave him and she wanted to take the kids back to Oklahoma to live with their mother and stepfather. But it wasn't just Tim who was scaring her.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Jana now lives in Wyoming and she spoke to our reporter by phone about that last call.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Jana said that a few nights before she died, Deborah called her again, very upset.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Jana never talked to her sister again. And about four or five years ago, before Tim died, she asked him if he knew anyone named Frank.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Detective Gonzalez says there is nothing in the case file about anyone named Frank. She's hoping that someone out there listening could help her with this. Maybe one of you know about a Frank in Deborah's life or a Frank that was Tim Moore's best friend. She would like to speak with both Franks if you can help her. We're going to have her contact information in the description for this episode.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
What's interesting, though, is that Tim's concern, even all those years later when Jana asked him about Frank, wasn't about finding the man who might have killed his wife. He was more upset by the idea that another man might have been in his trailer while he and Debra were separated, which I think paints a picture of what Debra's life must have been like with Tim.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
But Jana and Debra's kids can do an even better job of that.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
While Jana only heard Debra's account of the abuse, Debra's children, Bert and Brandy, witnessed it firsthand. And Bert, who was older, remembers more of the violence, carries that trauma to this day. He and Brandy are now in their 40s and parents themselves. And they recently sat down with our reporting team and Detective Gonzalez at the Odessa Police Department.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
And she was showing them old family photos that she'd come across in the case file, ones that they had never seen.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
The pictures they were looking at brought memories of their mother just rushing back.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Charles's statement ends with the upstairs neighbor, Dale, knocking on the door and Charles running out to the parking lot to flag down the ambulance. It didn't seem that Charles had seen or heard anyone else, but also he probably didn't do much looking around. Like he had jumped right into action, pulling Debra inside the apartment for safety and calling police.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Bert remembers finding out that his mother was dead. He'd spent the night with his mom's friend Lisa and saw her on the phone just crying the next morning. She didn't tell him what was wrong. And he had to go to the home of Debra's second husband, Ed, who had his and Debra's five-year-old daughter Brandy with him.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Bert says Debra and his father Albert met as teenagers, and their marriage ended after about two years. Debra wouldn't stay single for long, though. She soon connected with Ed Simmons, her second husband and the father of Brandy. And for a short time, they were a happy family of four, going to church and doing family activities.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Neither Brandy nor Bert knew that Debra and Ed's marriage was on the rocks until suddenly they were getting a divorce. And then not long after, Debra entered a new relationship, this time with Tim, someone her family had known for years. And again, things were good at first, but that didn't last.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Brandy, who was a preschooler at the time, also remembers the fear in the household before her mother sent her to live with her dad, Ed. And Bert says that after Brandy left, Tim's abuse of Debra just escalated. I know we were, we had under the dining room table a couple times.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
The story seemed almost unbelievable, but a quick canvas of the complex actually proved that it was possible. See, the design of the apartment complex meant that lots of people could have heard or seen something that night. And they did. Each of the buildings in the apartment complex was two stories with units opening up onto this courtyard.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Tim's violent abuse of his mother left Burt with serious questions about Tim's potential role in Deborah's murder. Questions that Brandy also has. In fact, Brandy says that as an adult, she confronted Tim with questions.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
They also have questions for another person who didn't get a whole lot of attention during the initial investigation. In one of the very first interviews police had with Tim, he mentioned that Debra was having problems with the second wife of Bert's father, Albert. Tim said it was all around custody or child support, but there wasn't much more in the case file about that or her.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
But Bert and Brandy also said that she had had issues with their mom, and they remember hearing their mom was having problems with another guy who'd been following her. So there are potentially people who have never been looked into. Bert and Brandy seem to think whoever did this knew their mom pretty well. And they don't believe it was something totally random.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
If one of these people didn't do it themselves, that they hired somebody to do it.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Today, Detective Gonzalez is reexamining the case with an open mind and considering both men Deborah knew and strangers alike.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Plus, at the end of each building was a gated archway that allowed people on the outside to see in. Detective Gonzalez says officers spoke with a resident named James who lived in the building directly north of Charles. And what James told them backed up his story.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
As for some of the other early suspects, like Billy, the Fairgreen apartment employee, police had gotten a perp kit from him. But back in 1986, they weren't doing DNA testing. They were just testing blood type and serology.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
But that testing was only good enough to say he couldn't be excluded as the perpetrator, which they must have felt was promising enough combined with the victim picking him out of a lineup because they did end up charging him with sexual assault. His first trial ended with a mistrial and he was acquitted at the second.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
The problems with the way the victim made the ID after seeing that newspaper photo coupled with the fact that Billy's friends had changed their stories and given him an alibi ultimately undermined the case against him. Detective Gonzalez says that Billy was never charged with any other crimes after that.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
As for David Good, after avoiding jail on the attempted abduction of the 7-Eleven clerk, he went on to be charged in an aggravated assault case from 2006. But other than that, he doesn't appear to have any violent criminal history. Detective Gonzalez says investigators did collect a perp kit from him, including a blood sample in 1986.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
But she doesn't think it was ever compared to the rape kit collected from the student who'd been assaulted. Tim was never suspected in any other crimes. Police then and now still believe that if he was involved in Deborah's death, the attack was targeted specifically toward her.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
His DNA was never collected before his death, which is unfortunate because there may now be DNA in Deborah's case after all these years that could lead investigators to their suspect. Back in 1986, there had been a sexual assault kit performed on Debra.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Not much had been done with it through the years because police seemed to always believe that the attack happened too quickly for a sexual assault to take place. And it was possible that any sample they would have gotten would have come from Charles, who they knew she had consensual sex with that night. But Detective Gonzalez says that kit would have collected more than just vaginal swabs.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
And she thinks that there are other places where she might be able to get much more viable suspect DNA.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
If she gets a profile, she plans to compare it to David Good's DNA. She also hopes to reach Charles Azell, the man that Debra was planning on spending the night with, to ask him for an elimination sample.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Our reporting team attempted to reach Charles without luck and discovered online records suggesting that he might have died in 2014. Burt and Brandy say that identifying the killer would be some comfort, even if it can't undo the lifetime of suffering, especially for Burt, who went to live with his father Albert and stepmother after Deborah's death.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
He says his father was gone on work trips for long stretches of time, and in his absence, his stepmother abused him, which caused his grandparents to take custody.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
His father died by suicide a few years later, and he said the impact of losing both parents violently left him with a lifelong fear of abandonment.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Despite the pain, Bert and Brandy's relationship is close. And they both credit their mother's early love with their ability to cope with the challenges that came.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
They believe the answers to what happened to Debra are out there, and they hope that someone will finally come forward after all these years. Somebody knows something.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
I'm very proud of you and who you've become. They have a message for the killer, too.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Detective Gonzalez believes there are more witnesses out there that she would love to talk to. There is a report in the file of police speaking with a man named Terry, who said that he saw Deborah at the brewery bar in Odessa on the evening of May 16th, 1986, into the early morning hours of May 17th. He also gave them a list of names of other people who had been there that night, too.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Detective Gonzalez says that none of those people were ever interviewed. Their names are Larry Reimer, Connie Bean, Johnny Williams, Pat Ward, Lynn Stanford, Gina Wessels, and Rhonda Crawford. If that's you or you knew Deborah Sue Moore and have information about the night she died, please call.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
And remember, Detective Gonzalez is also hoping to learn more about a man named Frank who Deborah knew around the time of her death. Detective Gonzalez can be reached at 432-335-4926. You can also call the Odessa Crime Stoppers at 432-333-TIPS if you want to remain anonymous. The Deck is an AudioChuck production with theme music by Ryan Lewis.
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Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
To learn more about The Deck and our advocacy work, visit thedeckpodcast.com. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? Yeah.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Another Viva Apartments resident was outside nearby and also reported hearing the scream. And get this, just before he heard screaming, this resident told detectives that he'd been outside talking to a neighbor. This was around 2.55 in the morning. And that's when a man he didn't recognize walked by.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Our card this week is Deborah Sue Moore, the Jack of Clubs from Texas. When a young mother was stabbed to death outside an apartment complex in Odessa, Texas in the spring of 1986, police initially suspected her estranged husband could be behind the crime.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
When detectives continued to talk to witnesses, other members of law enforcement were collecting evidence in and around the apartment.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
A second set of bloody prints, shoe prints, also appeared to originate in the pool of blood by the gate, and they led in the opposite direction, northbound, away from the apartments. But Detective Gonzalez says that evidence didn't appear to be particularly useful to investigators.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
There wasn't much inside the apartment, since it seems her attacker never made it inside. Her purse and overnight bag were there. There was actually blood on the outside of her bag, and they collected some items around the apartment, like bloody keys near her, some women's clothes, and a folded pocket knife on the dining table.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
But it didn't have any blood on it, so they weren't very hopeful of that being the murder weapon. All in all, everything they'd heard and seen led investigators to believe Debra had gone to retrieve her overnight bag from her car in the parking lot. And they think that she had likely made it to the car and was attacked on her way back to the apartment. But who attacked her was the question.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
And almost as fast as police could ask the question, someone showed up on scene with a pretty compelling answer. A man named Curtis had arrived on scene after the ambulance had arrived. Curtis was the one who'd actually introduced Charles and Debra about a month before. And Curtis had something he wanted to tell police about Debra's past.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Deborah's husband at the time was a man by the name of Timothy Moore, and Curtis wasn't the only one with concerning stories of Tim's abuse. Over the next day or so, person after person gave them confirmation of Tim's violent history with Deborah, including an ex named Jimmy that Deborah had dated right before marrying Tim about a year and a half ago.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
When police went looking for Tim that first day to both notify him of his wife's death and ask him some pretty important questions, they found him at his office, Moore's Trucking, where he appeared to have been sleeping. Now, he flat out denied any involvement in Deborah's murder, and he was cooperative, going down to the station multiple times over the next couple of days.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
I mean, he even let police search his truck, his house, his business. None of the searches yielded anything meaningful. But here is what they ended up learning. Tim said that he and Debra didn't have any kids together. Her two children were from two previous marriages.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
Tim told detectives that he and Deborah had only been together about a year and a half. In the last few months of that time, they'd been separated. They were getting divorced because they'd rushed into marriage, and he said he didn't love her. He also said he'd been sleeping at his shop in Monaghan's, about 40 minutes away from Odessa since the split.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
And the night Deborah died, he'd been with an employee until like 1 or 1.30 in the morning. And he said after the employee left, he had been there alone until police arrived to notify him about his wife's death at around 4 a.m. When detectives asked him about the abuse allegations, he described two different incidents in which Deborah had been injured. But he really downplayed them.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
on May 17th, 1986, a woman's scream rang out in the Viva apartment complex in Odessa, Texas. Alarmed by the piercing sound of distress, a man named Dale ran out of his second floor unit and down a set of stairs into the open-air courtyard of the two-story building. And he noticed a trail of blood along the sidewalk leading to the door of apartment 51.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
He described another incident that happened the day before they'd gotten married, a year and a half earlier. Tim said he'd gotten into a fight with a guy, and Deborah was accidental collateral damage.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
That's two incidents in which Tim straight up told police that he'd injured Debra, but he insisted he had never followed Debra anywhere. Now, it took a couple of days to get all of this information from Tim because investigators were running a parallel path in their investigation. And as suspicious as Tim seemed, there was another lead that felt even more promising.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
You see, just 12 minutes after Charles' call to 911, a second call had come in to police. There had been an attempted abduction of another woman about a block away from where Debra was stabbed, and she had quite the story to tell.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
At 3.05 a.m., a female clerk at a 7-Eleven store about a quarter of a mile up the road from the Viva Apartments called police with a chilling story of a man who had come into her store and tried to abduct her. She said that he'd been kind of just hanging around the store for like 20 minutes or so. But during that time, her husband and his friend were there.
The Deck
Debra Sue Moore (Jack of Clubs, Texas)
But as soon as they left, the man approached her at the counter.