Amanda Knox
Appearances
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
It might have been sooner if she wasn't in such a remote area, but it was the type of path you wouldn't even know was there unless you knew. By 8 p.m., a flurry of people, including paramedics, rush Dana into the hospital on a gurney. And there, in the waiting room, is her family. They've been there for about two hours.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
Ever since they figured out something was wrong, and now they are watching their Dana, 23-year-old Dana Ireland, fighting for her life. When detectives speak with Dana's older sister, Sandy, in the waiting room, they discover Sandy moved to the Big Island a few years earlier, and Dana came to visit often. Then, only two months prior, Dana decided to stay in Hawaii for good.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
So for the holidays, Dana and Sandy's parents, John and Louise Ireland, decided to fly in from Virginia and join them on the Big Island for a few weeks. The family says earlier that day, before they were planning on celebrating Christmas Eve, Dana decided to go on a bike ride. So she borrowed her sister Sandy's bike and headed out to her friend Mark's house, which is about a seven-mile ride.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
But when Sandy and her boyfriend Jim were driving over to their parents' rental house around 5 p.m., they saw something on the side of the road that caught their attention. A crowd of people all gathered around what looked like the scene of an accident. Sandy went from curious to terrified when she recognized the crushed bike lying in the road.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
It was her bike, the one she had just let Dana borrow a couple hours earlier. Next to it was Dana's wristwatch, the band completely broken, a foot-long chunk of blonde hair, and a single white athletic shoe, still tied. Sandy and Jim rushed to her parents' rental, which was just minutes away, to tell them what they saw, and they all headed back to the scene.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
But when they arrived, Dana's mom, Louise, saw what was going on, assumed Dana had been involved in some kind of accident, and so the family headed over to the local hospital in case she showed up. But they never imagined she would show up like this. They watch in shock as the doctors do their best to save Dana. But she is just too far gone.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
A little after midnight on Christmas morning, Dana dies after hours of attempted lifesaving measures. Her cause of death, exsanguination, or blood loss, due to multiple traumatic injuries of the head, neck, chest, abdomen, and pelvis. In Dana's autopsy report, Dr. Charles Reinhold notes a disturbing amount of injuries.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
Dana's chest, back, arms, legs, and face were covered with abrasions, cuts, and bruises. Her collarbone and pelvis were fractured. She had extensive hemorrhaging in her heart, lungs, stomach, and bladder. But the doctors find something even more disturbing and which can't be explained by a car accident. a bite mark on her left breast, and the presence of semen.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
So while Dana's family is reeling from her sudden death, police scour not just the one, but the two scenes related to Dana, which are about five miles apart. The first scene is on Kapoho Kai Drive, where Dana's bike was discovered. They find tire impressions in the dirt.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
They make plaster casts of the tracks and take several pictures of tire marks, including a single deep gouge mark on Kapoho Kai Drive, which larger double tire tracks lead into. Detectives identify the gouge mark as the point at which the bicycle tire was driven into the road from the collision. They find Dana's black bicycle seat on the side of the road near the tracks.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
Once finished at the collision scene, detectives head five miles away to the Waawaa Fishing Trail, where Dana had been found. She was about 80 to 90 feet off the main road in the bushes, just off the right side of the trail. Leaves surrounding her were bloody, too, as if she'd been placed or possibly thrown there in an effort to conceal her.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
Her jean shorts and her missing white avia tennis shoe are found nearby. But there's more. There's a child's black McGregor shoe, the left one only, and two white socks stuffed inside. There's also a blue-colored T-shirt, size large, with a print of a station wagon and the Jimmy Z logo, which was a popular brand at the time, especially on the Big Island.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
Then, up the trail, about halfway between the road and where Dana was found, a black knit adult sock and a red panty, size large. Police also find cigarette butts and two Corona beer bottles. Everything gets collected and tagged. But what is at the scene is only part of the story. The question still stands as to how Dana could have ended up there.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
After speaking with her family and witnesses at both crime scenes, authorities tried to build a rough timeline of events based on everything they know so far, which begins at the home of Mark Evans in Apohika'o at 4.10 p.m.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
Mark was the friend Dana went to visit on her bike the night of the murder, and he told police that while their relationship in the beginning leaned a little towards the romantic side, they were totally platonic. Sometime shortly thereafter, the police speak to a witness who says they saw a woman who looked like Dana passing places called Shacks and Secrets, both local surfing hangout spots.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
Based on this, authorities determined she was run over at approximately 4.40 p.m., less than half a mile from her parents' vacation land rental home, which she was most likely headed back to for the family's Christmas Eve dinner.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
Then, as she was riding her bike, she was struck in the rear by a vehicle heading in the Makai direction, aka east towards the sea, on Kapoho Kai Drive, which would indicate that Dana was also traveling in the Makai direction, on the right side of the road, before someone grabbed her and drove away to move her to that isolated area along the trail.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
It's 9.21 a.m. on Tuesday, January 24th, 2023. And a man named Ian Schweitzer is standing in a courtroom in Hilo, Hawaii. He's not a total stranger to this feeling or to the criminal justice system in general. He's been here before. But this time, it's for very different reasons. Over 23 years ago, Ian was convicted of a crime he firmly asserts he did not commit.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
There, she would endure a nightmare before being left for dead. As detectives continued to work to fill in the pieces, a flurry of calls and leads about trucks, vans, and SUVs believed to be in the area flows in from the community. One comes from Eric Carlsmith. He lives on the first house on the left on Ililani Road, and he says he was with his girlfriend Karina on Christmas Eve.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
He tells police he noticed a pickup truck facing southwest at the intersection of Ililani Road and Kapohokai Drive. This was the spot where Dana was hit.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
So police are focusing on a truck or van, and this makes sense. The road from Vacationland to the Ocean Trail off Beach Road, where Dana was found, is barely drivable by a car. It's a tucked away, isolated, unpaved fishing trail of sorts, and really only known to the locals in the area. It'd be hard to find otherwise. But obviously, they still need more.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
And fortunately, or maybe unfortunately, there's no shortage of witness accounts. And this is the part where I would have walked you through detectives interviewing each one of them from the day Dana was found. Like Ida Smith, the woman who first found Dana.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
Or Demian Fierro, who was 10 at the time and was one of the first ones to discover the broken bike in the road.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
But like I said before, the story we were planning on telling you when we first started investigating in 2023 is a very different one today in 2025. Which means how we tell it to you is also very different, because what holds weight now is not the same as then. So instead, in this series, I'll be focusing on what you need to know to understand how we ended up where we are today.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
How so many lives got tangled up in one of the most devastating and high-profile cases to ever hit the Big Island. Coming up on this season of 3... There were no winners. There were no winners in this entire situation.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
And for almost two decades, the Innocence Project has been trying to help him prove it. Ian's team, including the legendary Barry Sheck, who co-founded the original Innocence Project in 1992, well, they would spend the next seven hours stating their case in front of Judge Kubota.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
That's Ken Lawson, the co-director of the Hawaii Innocence Project. They have been looking into Ian's case since around 2006. But when Ken started in 2010, he took it over, and ever since, he's been damn near determined to prove his client's innocence. But no one had predicted that today would be the day. Especially not Ian.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
To everyone's surprise, the judge announces his verdict later that same day.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
It's a feeling very few people understand. Being charged and convicted of a crime you didn't commit. While his story played out a little differently, Ian's brother Sean is also one of those people.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
I'm Amanda Knox, and while studying abroad in 2007, what was supposed to be a once-in-a-lifetime college experience turned into a life-altering nightmare. One I would spend the following eight years trapped inside of and will carry with me for the rest of my life.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
In February 2023, after Ian was released from prison, I traveled to Hawaii and met him in person. Little did I know that almost two years later, I would be sitting down now with you all to tell you what has happened since that very conversation. Behind every wrongful conviction is a devastating and complicated web that is almost impossible to untangle.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
But during this series, we're going to try to do just that. Because justice doesn't have to be complicated. And the victims in this case deserve clarity. Justice too long delayed is justice denied.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
Over the past 18 months, we've had a team of people who've been out on the Hawaiian islands investigating this story, talking to the people that were there firsthand, some who have never spoken out before, recording in-depth interviews that you will hear nowhere else. We've poured through nearly 40,000 pages of documents about this case.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
We've listened to countless hours of audio, from witness stories and confessions to secret grand jury testimony and never-before-heard interviews with jailhouse informants. All so we could discover the truth behind the murder of Dana Ireland and the three families who will never be the same because of it.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
But what we didn't expect was that the story would change drastically over the last year and a half as we investigated. Actually, no one did. In July 2024, the world found out who really killed Dana Ireland. A name that never popped up on investigators' radar matched the DNA left at the scene and on the body of Dana Ireland.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
But to understand how we got here, you have to understand what has transpired in the 33 years since Dana Ireland was murdered. I'm Amanda Knox, and this is 3, Season 2. Murder in Vacationland.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
We're asking you to come with us to the Big Island to hear the untold story of what really happened to Dana Ireland and how her death impacted the lives of three families, the Irlands, the Schweitzers, and the Paulines.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
Chapter 1, Christmas in Hawaii. It's December 1991 in a small town, Kapoho, located on the eastern end of what's known as the Big Island of Hawaii. It's not the place most mainlanders think of when they imagine the Hawaii islands. It's quieter, slower, serene, the ultimate tropical paradise, and often called one of Hawaii's best-kept secrets.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
And within Kapoho, there is this little subdivision called, almost too perfectly, Vacationland. At around 5.30 p.m. on Christmas Eve, a local woman named Ida Smith had just gotten home from running some afternoon errands and is settling back when she hears something strange. The call of a hawk? No. She realizes what she's hearing is not bird calls.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
It's sounding more like a girl who is calling for help. Ida quickly follows the direction of the faint screams, which take her towards a vacant house near her property. And then she sees her. About 80 to 90 feet down the narrow gravel roadway towards the waterfront, surrounded by bushes, is a young woman in desperate need of medical attention.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
She is barely clothed, and it's clear she is suffering from numerous injuries by the amount of blood on her. And based on her appearance, Ida also believes the woman has been sexually assaulted.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
Ida books it to the main road on the other side of her home to flag down the first car she sees. Thankfully, it doesn't take long, and in a matter of minutes, a group of individuals, including a nurse who lives nearby, are down there comforting the victim as they anxiously wait for an ambulance to arrive. And they're praying it won't be long, because the woman's condition is only getting worse.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
It's obvious she is in severe pain, and through it, she's trying to make words. Some are coherent, some not. But they can make out her name. Dana. Dana. By 6.20 p.m., an officer makes his way to the scene, but unfortunately, the ambulance doesn't arrive for another hour. Once arrived, Ida and the group watch as Dana is whisked away towards Hilo Hospital, two hours after Ida found her.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
for my safety and who I'd been raised to trust and obey. And they are yelling at me. They are contradicting me. They're telling me that what I'm saying doesn't make any sense. They're telling me that I'm lying. But then on top of that, so these are all, you know, these bullying tactics are very effective at getting people to falsely confess. But on top of that, they lied to me.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
What was the biggest and most egregious lie? The biggest and most egregious lie was that they knew that I was present when the crime occurred. They knew. That's what they told you that— And that was incredibly destabilizing for me because that was not what I remembered. Like I was at my boyfriend's house the entire night. I kept insisting that can't be true, that can't be true.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
But they insisted that it was true and they knew for sure. And so the next lie on top of that was that because I was present and that I had witnessed this crime, I had trauma-induced amnesia. They insisted that my brain didn't remember the truth precisely because I had witnessed the crime and therefore was traumatized.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
And my brain had been making up an alternate reality that I thought I was remembering staying at my boyfriend's house when in fact I was at my house when the crime occurred. And you believed it. You started to believe that. I started to believe it because after hours of insisting upon my innocence and that that wasn't true and that I wasn't lying, I started to question myself. Like, I...
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
Again, I was suggestible in that moment because there's only so long you can argue with authority figures before you, at least for me, I started to question myself. It's classic gaslighting. They found a text message on my phone that I had sent to my boss, Patrick Lumumba, the night of the murder. He had told me that I didn't need to come in for work at the pub.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
I had texted him back, sure, have a good night, see you later. And the police interpreted my text message to him as me making an appointment to see him the night of the murder. They were convinced that they had me dead to rights, that I had let this man, Patrick, into my house and that he was the murderer and that I was covering for him.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
And then after hours of berating me and telling me that this was true, I started to question myself. And given what they were suggesting to me, I tried to piece together an idea in my mind of what could have happened that night and what ultimately came out.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
was an incoherent sort of patchwork of of images of like me meeting my boss, Patrick, outside the basketball court and me being in the kitchen. And I never told them that I witnessed him doing anything like I could not imagine. And I could my brain could not bring myself to do it. But it was enough. Just that was enough for them to say, OK, we're going to arrest him.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
Yes, if there is a legal avenue for proving my innocence, I will pursue it. It was not my decision to go arrest Patrick Lumumba. He was arrested in the middle of the night by police based on a crazy incoherent statement. He was kept in prison despite the fact that he had an ironclad alibi that came out immediately. Even after he was released, the police held his pub.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
They closed his pub down as part of the investigation, even though it had nothing to do with the murder. And it caused him to incur incredible financial losses. So he had to sell his home in Perugia to pay for those losses. And on top of all of that,
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
There was the psychological trauma of being like ripped from his family's arms in the middle of the night, which hearkened back to a trauma that he had had in childhood where his father was kidnapped in the middle of the night and he never saw his father again. So like trauma on top of trauma on top of trauma, this man has been through hell. Have you all ever spoken?
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
You know, we actually spoke recently. I had never really had a chance to speak to him directly for years and years and years. He reached out to my attorney and said that he wanted to talk to me because he was writing a book. And I sent him an email just explaining to him, like, you know, Patrick, here's what really happened. And I in no way intended to falsely accuse you.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
If anything, I was brainwashed and I immediately retracted my statements. And I was so sorry. And I'm so sorry for everything that he had been through. But I really did not mean to do any of that. And I tried to retract and take it back as soon as I possibly could within hours. And he just wasn't interested. He wasn't interested in hearing it. He wasn't interested in talking about it.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
I think because the record is so convoluted. I think that so many different stories arose around this case. And really, a product was delivered by the prosecution and the media that resonated with people, even though it wasn't based on anything and it wasn't true. And that product really was this idea that women hate other women. It really came down to that, this idea that young women—
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
He just wanted me to pay him money. And I think that I'm disappointed by that. I mean, he had the same experience of being arrested and mistreated by the police.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
And I don't think police should be allowed to lie to people and create false realities around them because it is when you distort reality around them that someone starts to question their own sanity and they are made accomplices to police misconduct.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
After my conviction, I really settled into this idea that this was my world. It was a very small world. It was very contained. It was very controlled. And it was populated by all of these women who, by comparison to me, were very unlucky. They were abused. They were neglected. They were impoverished. I think I was the only person there who had all of my teeth removed.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
There were like the level of need and poverty that I encountered in that environment stunned me. Like I did not know that there were people who could not read an analog clock or that didn't know that the earth was a sphere. And these were the people that were my community. And. I was also the famous one. I was the one who was getting constant letters.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
So many of these women were just forgotten by everyone, including their own families. So I looked at them and I thought, God, I am so lucky. And one way, you know, a very important way to survive prison is to be useful because it's an environment where there's a lot of need and not a lot of resources.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
And I realized very quickly that I was, especially after a year in prison, and by that time I was fluent in Italian, I was able to function effectively. As a translator. So lots of the women that were imprisoned were not Italian, were not fluent in Italian, had no idea what anyone was telling them.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
A lot of people from various African nations, also Eastern Europe. But, you know, there was a couple of Chinese women that were in there at one point. And I was translating for them by like taking I just happened to have this English to Chinese dictionary because I'm a language nerd. Because there were no translators. There were no translators in the prison.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
So I ended up being the unofficial translator for everyone and every language. And then the other thing that became my sort of unofficial job was scribe. Everyone really thought that my handwriting was very beautiful. And when you are someone who is in prison, especially if you're –
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
feeling lonely and are looking for some attention from some male counterpart, wherever he may be, you wanted to appear pretty to them. And the way that you could appear pretty is by having pretty handwriting.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
secretly hate each other and are constantly competing with each other and in certain situations will sexually assault and murder each other. And it was a lie and it's shocking to me that it wasn't seen for what it was at the time. But it was a story that resonated with people and I think continues to resonate with people. And I think that in a big way, it wasn't even about Meredith anymore.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
Yes, I'm so glad you brought it up because it is a very human thing to have a sexual identity, to have an intimate identity. And I was being vilified and punished for this perceived...
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
sexuality and I and so I absolutely was in conflict with my own sexuality also like you bring up Raffaele and Raffaele what is a deeply romantic person at heart like we hit it off immediately in part because he was a nerd and I'm I love a good nerd but also because he was just so sweet and romantic with me from the get-go and even while we were you know surviving this insane
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
struggle together, he was ready to continue to pursue a romance with me, even while we were in prison and on trial. And because I was being so punished for my actions, my sexual identity, I resisted it. And I broke it off with him in prison because in part I was feeling I was feeling like the reason I was even in there was because I was a sexually active young woman.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
And then over the years, I first of all realized that my life might be spent a great portion of it inside these prison walls and that An intimate life, a sexual life, was a part of being human. It wasn't something to be ashamed of. It wasn't something to repress. It was just one of the things that makes life worth living.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
That is one of the sort of unresolved, I should probably go to therapy for this kind of thing. I'm very claustrophobic. I've actually always been claustrophobic. So that ended up becoming even more aggravated in prison. But at the same time... At the same time, it was almost like an exposure therapy because your perspective of your space makes all the difference.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
So if I was literally sitting in my jail cell, I had options. I could stare at the barred door or, you know, there were two doors to our cell. One of them was a barred door, but even worse was the solid steel door that was closed shut. at nighttime. So it was just like this solid metal door that I could not open. There wasn't even a handle. There was no way that I could open that door.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
I think a lot of people really didn't care very much about her or the person who committed the crime. They cared about this idea of a young woman hating another woman enough to sexually assault and murder them. That was titillating and fascinating to people. And that was ultimately the story that made the rounds of the world and resonated with so many people.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
If I looked at that door, I would lose my mind. So instead, I looked out my window. And yes, there are bars on my window, but beyond those bars was a hilltop with a bell tower. There were fields that if you looked close enough, you could see bunnies scampering across it. And just the ability to pivot and change the perspective of, like change the frame of what you are focusing on.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
It didn't mean that door was not there. It meant that it wasn't the only thing that was there. And I've tried to take that framing idea with me outside of the prison environment because even when I came home and I found myself in my childhood bedroom... In a way that I was in another prison cell because I could, you know, look out of my window when I was in prison.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
I couldn't even do that when I first came home because there were paparazzi standing outside, like right outside of my house, just pointing their cameras at my windows. And so we had to have all of the windows closed and like shuttered and draped. And I remember feeling really claustrophobic, like, oh, my God, oh, my God, I thought I was going to come out of prison.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
And now I'm feeling even more trapped. I can't leave my house. I can't leave my room. I can't open the windows. I can't, like, I was struggling with panic attacks.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
Oh, thank you for asking that. It's true that I didn't know Meredith very well. I had only known her for a few weeks. That said, when you study abroad, you get to know people really quickly because both of us were new arrivals to Perugia. We were both at the very same moment of our lives. You know, I was 20. She was 21. She was studying journalism. I was studying languages.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
And we both happened to rent a room in this beautiful little house overlooking the countryside, and it was perfect. It was that beautiful time of your life when everything is possible and you have every reason to expect to have beautiful experiences. And, you know, I feel so horrible about how she has been misrepresented in the media as well.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
Like, the image of Meredith that was presented by the prosecution was of this, like— uptight, judgmental, you know, English girl. And that was not at all who she was. She was, you know, sure, she was a little bit more introverted than me, but she was very kind and very silly. And I remember thinking both that she was very sophisticated and elegant.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
And I think part of that was because she had a beautiful British accent. And I always was impressed by that. But other than that, like she also kind of took care of me. Like she was always asking me if I was getting home safe or who I was going out with and just checking in on me and had this very big sisterly air.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
Like one thing that haunts me to this day is we found this really cool little vintage shop and she found this sparkly silver dress that she was very excited. She bought because she wanted to wear back home for New Year's Eve. And, of course, she never got to wear that dress, and it just haunts me to this day. Like, I was right there with her.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
She was so excited, and I don't even know what happened to it, you know? Like, so much of our lives, like, in a big way, two very young women went to Perugia, and one of them didn't get to go home, and one of them came home completely and utterly changed. And I... It's a grieving process for me, for both of us.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
I did, yeah. I think I've struggled both with survivor's guilt as well as with, someone just pointed this out to me, it's like survivor's guilt by proxy, where other people are sort of enforcing survivor's guilt onto me. And I understand where it's coming from, right?
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
Like so many people only know me in the context of her murder, and in particular through this very negative lens in the context of her murder. And so because they don't imagine me in the fullness of my human being, They sort of anything that I do, whether purposefully publicly or not purposefully publicly, like when I got married, I didn't in no way intended that for that to be a public event.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
I went out of my way to make it very, very private and to be very, very secretive. And paparazzi showed up anyway. And then, of course, I get the messages from people saying, you know, who will never get to get married, Meredith. And I just have that thrown in my face constantly as if my life doesn't. doesn't matter because she lost hers.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
And I think that that's because they're not capable of imagining me as a real human being.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
I guess for me, for a long time, he was the boogeyman, right? Like he was the big scary man who was making decisions to ruin my life and I I was scared of him. I didn't understand him. I also was constantly asking myself, I think that the question that haunted me most that I was attempting to discover the answer to was why? Just simply why?
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
Like, I've had I don't know how many panic attacks because I I was plagued by this not understanding why this thing had happened to me. And it wasn't, I knew that it wasn't an easy answer, right? Like it wasn't just an evil man sitting in his prosecutor's office, you know, Putting his fingers together like Mr. Burns and chuckling about how he was putting an innocent girl in prison.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
That was not what was happening. I knew that to be true. Or at least I assumed that to be true because I tend to think that most people are not psychopaths and I didn't think that he was a psychopath. And it didn't explain even why so many people believed him. And so there had to be something more to it. It had to be more complicated. But I couldn't figure it out.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
Like I couldn't understand how this man looked. at a 20-year-old girl with no history of violence, no history of criminality, no motive to commit this crime, and said, that's the person who's responsible for sexual assault and murder. Like, that woman is responsible for a man's crime. And I couldn't wrap my head around it. I couldn't understand why this had happened to me.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
And so I spent years thinking about it and trying to understand it until I realized that I could just freaking ask. I could just ask. You wrote him. I wrote him. And you know what? So many people advised me not to. Including your family. Including my family, including everyone in the Innocence Movement. They were all saying it's a waste of time. Prosecutors never apologize.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
They never realize that they were wrong. It's a waste of time. He's never going to admit fault. He's never going to... I think the thing that they were afraid of was that I was looking to this person for my well-being. I needed this person to be okay. And they didn't want me... Because there was a big chance that you wouldn't get it, right? I want to understand him.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
I want to know who this man is. I know he's not really a boogeyman. So who is this man? But also, if he could only see who I really am, maybe he would realize that he was wrong. And if he realizes that he's wrong, maybe he'll tell other people that he was wrong, and then my life will be much better.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
The thing that I tried to do was imagine What Giuliano and I could agree on. Because that's his name, by the way. Yes, sorry. His name is Giuliano. Giuliano Mignini. But at the time he was Dr. Mignini. Dr. Mignini. And I reached out to him and I told him that I wanted to know him outside of this adversarial system where we were pitted against each other from the very beginning.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
And my step one was find common ground. What could he and I have in common? And at first, he was resistant. At first, he didn't know whether or not it was even legal for him to talk to me. He's still a working prosecutor, has no idea. It's unprecedented for a defendant to reach out to a prosecutor. And it wasn't until I did a very public talk in Italy acknowledging that he was someone who had
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
genuine, noble intentions in his prosecution of me, even if he was wrong, that he responded to me. And immediately, I think he was immediately just kind of shocked and impressed that I was willing to see him as a human being, which, I don't know, it just goes to show what kind of echo chamber that he was living in. Again, like he's lived his entire life
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
being fighting people and being very adversarial. And so someone approached him in this very non-adversarial way, someone like me who had every reason to hate him and to fear him. And he was moved by that and almost immediately moved. We ended up corresponding for two years about everything under the sun, the case, but also our lives.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
He has admitted that he could have been wrong. He has admitted to me that I am not the person that he thought he was prosecuting. That if someone were to ask him to prosecute this case again today, he would not because he knows that I am not capable of committing such a crime. But at the same time, he really maintains that at the time that he was trying the case,
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
He truly believed what he was prosecuting. He truly believed the story that he was spinning. And I believe him that he truly believed it.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
Because I had never been brought to the brink of my own sanity like that before and never again to this day. I was questioned constantly. For hours and hours and hours into the night so that I was sleep deprived. Some of it was just what you would generally call bullying. Someone contradicts you. Someone talks over you. They yell at you. I got slapped.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
Like there was general just like abuse and overpowering that was happening.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
I did not speak fluent Italian, no. I was very elementary level. I certainly could not defend myself under an interrogation. And I think part of the problem was also that I wasn't sure if they were mad at me or were not understanding me because I was not speaking fluent Italian or because they were in fact suspecting me. Like I... I could not interpret what was happening to me.
Fresh Air
Amanda Knox Is 'Free,' But Is That Enough?
I'd never even been in a situation where I had been in trouble before. I'd never had to sit down with a principal and talk about being in trouble. Nothing like that had ever happened to me. So I was very much in a very new experience in the immediacy of discovering that my roommate had been murdered. So I was in a state of shock already. And I'm in a room with authority figures who I'm relying on
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
So I ended up being the unofficial translator for everyone and every language. And then the other thing that became my sort of unofficial job was scribe. Everyone really thought that my handwriting was very beautiful. And when you are someone who is in prison, especially if you're feeling lonely and are looking for some attention from some family,
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
a male counterpart, wherever he may be, you wanted to appear pretty to them. And the way that you could appear pretty is by having pretty handwriting.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
I would write their letters. Yeah, their little love letters. And sometimes they got a little frisky with the love letter. They would just dictate to me and I would write down. But sometimes they would say, but Amanda, you're better at saying this than us. Say this in like a really sexy way. And I was like, no, I'm just you. You dictate. I write. Right.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
Yes, I'm so glad you brought it up because it is a very human thing to have a sexual identity, to have an intimate identity. And I was being vilified and punished for this perceived...
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
sexuality and I and so I absolutely was in conflict with my own sexuality also like you bring up Raffaele and Raffaele what is a deeply romantic person at heart like we hit it off immediately in part because he was a nerd and I'm I love a good nerd but also because he was just so sweet and romantic with me from the get-go and even while we were you know surviving this insane
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
struggle together, he was ready to continue to pursue a romance with me, even while we were in prison and on trial. And I, because I was being so punished for my sexual identity, I resisted it. And I broke it off with him in prison because I, in part, I was feeling I was feeling like the reason I was even in there was because I was a sexually active young woman.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
And then over the years, I first of all realized that my life might be spent, a great portion of it, inside these prison walls. And that an intimate life, a sexual life, was a part of being human. It wasn't something to be ashamed of. It wasn't something to repress. It was just one of the things that makes life worth living.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
That is one of the sort of unresolved, I should probably go to therapy for this kind of thing. I'm very claustrophobic. I've actually always been claustrophobic. So that ended up becoming even more aggravated in prison. And even when I came home and I found myself in my childhood bedroom, you know,
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
In a way that I was in another prison cell because I could, you know, look out of my window when I was in prison. I couldn't even do that when I first came home because there were paparazzi standing outside, like right outside of my house, just pointing their cameras at my windows. And so we had to have all of the windows closed and like shuttered and draped.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
And I remember feeling really claustrophobic, like, oh, my God, oh, my God, I thought I was going to come out of prison. And now I'm feeling even more trapped. I can't leave my house. I can't leave my room. I can't open the windows. I can't, like, I was struggling with panic attacks.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
Yeah, absolutely. I think all of my family was really, was fighting to get Amanda home again, right? Like they had given up so much of their lives and upended everything. Everything came about saving Amanda. And I think there was a level of disappointment when they realized that, yes, they had gotten Amanda out of prison, but they hadn't actually saved Amanda. Because...
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
the girl who I was who had never had anything bad happen to her who trusted everyone and who was always optimistic and always you know that person died in Italy and she had to be grieved um and I don't think my family was ready for that I wasn't ready for that
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
And I think another thing that I had to realize, too, was that my family was also not the same after everything that had happened because they had gone through an experience that I did not have access to. And they were changed in ways that I didn't expect. And so there were some rough, rough periods there.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
I have a three-year-old daughter and a one-and-a-half-year-old son. Yeah, yeah. And he's a cutie. But Eureka is at that wonderful age where she wants to know everything and she wants to know why. And part of that has been, you know, my story. She wants to know about when mommy went to Italy. And I thought a lot about how I would talk to her about this story.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
But I've realized that, yes, I 100 percent believe in transparency and honesty. And I should always answer my daughter's questions with age appropriate honesty and not treat this story as like this weird taboo aspect of my life and our lives. But even more important than that, I think that children see what we do. more than they listen to what we say.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
And I feel really confident that I can show my daughter that stuff will happen to you that is painful and out of your control and inevitable, but it doesn't define you and you can find your way through it. All of us go through something. And I want her to see deep down that that that is not the end, and that is not all, and that, in fact, that is just the beginning.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
And I feel so confident that I can do that for her, and I can be there for her.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
Thank you so much for having me.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
I think because the record is so convoluted. I think that so many different stories arose around this case. And really, a product was delivered by the prosecution and the media that resonated with people, even though it wasn't based on anything and it wasn't true. And that product really was this idea that women hate other women.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
It really came down to that, this idea that young women secretly hate each other and are constantly competing with each other and in certain situations will sexually assault and murder each other. And it was a lie. And it's shocking to me that it wasn't seen for what it was at the time. But it was a story that resonated with people and I think continues to resonate with people.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
And I think that in a big way, it wasn't even about Meredith anymore. I think a lot of people really didn't care very much about her or the person who committed the crime. They cared about This idea of a young woman hating another woman enough to sexually assault and murder them. That was titillating and fascinating to people.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
And that was ultimately the story that made the rounds of the world and resonated with so many people.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
Oh, thank you for asking that. It's true that I didn't know Meredith very well. I had only known her for a few weeks. That said, when you study abroad, you get to know people really quickly because both of us were new arrivals to Perugia. We were both at the very same moment of our lives. I was 20. She was 21. She was studying journalism. I was studying languages.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
And we both happened to rent a room in this beautiful little house overlooking the countryside. And it was perfect. It was that beautiful time of your life when everything is possible and you have every reason to expect to have beautiful experiences. And, you know, I feel so horrible about how she has been misrepresented in the media as well. Like the
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
Yes, they had gotten Amanda out of prison, but they hadn't actually saved Amanda because the girl who I was, that person died in Italy.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
The image of Meredith that was presented by the prosecution was of this like uptight, judgmental, you know, English girl. And that was not at all who she was. She was, you know, sure, she was a little bit more introverted than me, but she was very kind and very silly. I remember thinking both that she was very sophisticated and elegant.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
And I think part of that was because she had a beautiful British accent and I always was impressed by that. But other than that, like she also kind of took care of me like she was always asking me if I was getting home safe or who I was going out with and just checking in on me and had this very big sisterly air there.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
Like one thing that haunts me to this day is we found this really cool little vintage shop and she found this sparkly silver dress that she was very excited. She bought because she wanted to wear back home for New Year's Eve. And of course, she never got to wear that dress. And it just haunts me to this day. Like I was right there with her. She was so excited.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
And I don't even know what happened to it. You know, like so much of our lives, like in a big way, Two very young women went to Perugia and one of them didn't get to go home and one of them came home completely and utterly changed. And it's a grieving process for me for both of us.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
Because I had never been brought to the brink of my own sanity like that before and never again to this day. I was questioned constantly. For hours and hours and hours into the night so that I was sleep deprived. Some of it was just what you would generally call bullying. Someone contradicts you. Someone talks over you. They yell at you. I got slapped.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
Like there was general just like abuse and overpowering that was happening.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
I did not speak fluent Italian, no. I was very elementary level. I certainly could not defend myself under an interrogation. And I think part of the problem... was also that I wasn't sure if they were mad at me or were not understanding me because I was not speaking fluent Italian or because they were, in fact, suspecting me. Like, I could not interpret what was happening to me.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
I'd never even been in a situation where I had been in trouble before. Like, I'd never had to sit down with a principal and talk about being in trouble. Like, nothing like that had ever happened to me. So I was very much... In a very new experience after in the immediacy of discovering that my roommate had been murdered. So I was in a state of shock already.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
And I'm in a room with authority figures who I'm relying on for my safety and who I'd been raised to trust and obey. And they are yelling at me. They are contradicting me. They're telling me that what I'm saying doesn't make any sense. They're telling me that I'm lying.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
But then on top of that, so these are all, you know, these bullying tactics are very effective at getting people to falsely confess. But on top of that, they lied to me. What was the biggest and most egregious lie? The biggest and most egregious lie was that they knew that I was present when the crime occurred. They knew. That's what they told you that—
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
And that was incredibly destabilizing for me because that was not what I remembered. Like I was at my boyfriend's house the entire night. I kept insisting that can't be true, that can't be true. But they insisted that it was true and they knew for sure. And so the next lie on top of that was that because I was present and that I had witnessed this crime, I had trauma-induced amnesia.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
They insisted that my brain didn't remember the truth precisely because I had witnessed the crime and therefore was traumatized. And my brain had been making up an alternate reality that I thought I was remembering staying at my boyfriend's house when in fact I was at my house when the crime occurred. And you believed it. You started to believe that.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
I started to believe it because after hours of insisting upon my innocence and that that wasn't true and that I wasn't lying, I started to question myself. Again, I was suggestible in that moment because there's only so long you can argue with authority figures before you, at least for me, I started to question myself. It's classic gaslighting.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
After my conviction, I really settled into this idea that this was my world. It was a very small world. It was very contained. It was very controlled. And it was populated by all of these women who believed by comparison to me, were very unlucky. They were abused, they were neglected, they were impoverished. I think I was the only person there who had all of my teeth.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
The level of need and poverty that I encountered in that environment stunned me. I did not know that there were people who could not read an analog clock. or that didn't know that the earth was a sphere. And these were the people that were my community. And I was also the famous one. I was the one who was getting constant letters.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
So many of these women were just forgotten by everyone, including their own families. And So I looked at them and I thought, God, I am so lucky. And one way, you know, a very important way to survive prison is to be useful because it's an environment where there's a lot of need and not a lot of resources.
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
And I realized very quickly that I was, especially after a year in prison, and by that time I was fluent in Italian, I was able to function effectively. as a translator. So lots of the women that were imprisoned were not Italian, were not fluent in Italian, had no idea what anyone was telling them. Where were they coming from?
Fresh Air
Best Of: Amanda Knox / 'Adolescence' Co-Creator & Actor Stephen Graham
A lot of people from various African nations, also Eastern Europe. But, you know, there was a couple of Chinese women that were in there at one point and I was translating for them by like taking I just happened to have this English to Chinese dictionary because I'm a language nerd there because there were no translators. There were no translators in the prison.
THREE
Murder in Vacationland | Season 2 Trailer
Christmas Eve, 1991. On Hawaii's Big Island, 23-year-old Dana Ireland went for a bike ride and never came home. Hours later, she was found brutally injured in a remote area, her life slipping away with every minute that passed. And by 12.07 a.m., in the early hours of Christmas morning, Dana was gone. Her death shook the community of Vacationland, Hawaii, and the entire Big Island to its core.
THREE
Murder in Vacationland | Season 2 Trailer
Behind every wrongful conviction lies a deeper, more disturbing truth about how something like this could happen to you or someone you love.
THREE
Murder in Vacationland | Season 2 Trailer
In this season of Three, you're going to hear about how three men became tied up in one of Hawaii's most notorious murders and the impact it had on three families. The Paulines.
THREE
Murder in Vacationland | Season 2 Trailer
This is 3, Season 2, Murder in Vacationland. The story of Dana Ireland, Albert Ian Schweitzer, Sean Schweitzer, and Frank Pauline Jr. And the shocking events that turned this entire case and our series upside down.
THREE
Murder in Vacationland | Season 2 Trailer
Coming Thursday, March 13th. Follow 3 on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
THREE
Murder in Vacationland | Season 2 Trailer
And the police needed to get answers, quickly, no matter how they got them.
THREE
Murder in Vacationland | Season 2 Trailer
I'm Amanda Knox. I know what it's like to be trapped in the nightmare of being wrongly accused and the years it takes to vindicate yourself in the eyes of the law, in the eyes of an unforgiving media, and a judgmental public.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
After over three weeks, somehow, someway, Ian is found guilty of sexual assault in the first, guilty of murder in the second, and guilty of kidnapping. He is sentenced to life in prison for the murder conviction and two 20-year sentences for kidnapping and sexual assault to run consecutively. Sean is up next.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
The process is full of hurdles, with a limited timeline and number of chances to argue innocence. Post-conviction appeals efforts are constrained by strict rules. Only issues raised during the trial can be addressed. No new evidence or witnesses can be introduced.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
But the game changer comes with new evidence, stuff like new witnesses, new documents, or new scientific evidence like DNA testing that wasn't known or available at the time of trial. The goal isn't just to prove innocence, but also to identify the real perpetrator.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
Back in 2008, the Department of Justice launched a program that allowed DNA samples to be tested using newer methods. It was then that the attorneys for the Hawaii Innocence Project leveraged that statute to request DNA retesting under seal due to the high-profile nature of the case.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
Keeping testing secret avoided drawing attention while other evidence was explored, all in the hopes of finding the real perpetrator. DNA testing since 2008 has substantially changed.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
The Jimmy Zee T-shirt found next to Dana Ireland, one key piece of evidence, could never fully be reviewed because forensic technology was unable to separate other DNA since the shirt was substantially soaked in Dana's blood. The prosecution argued the T-shirt belonged to Frank Pauline, supported by multiple witness testimonies claiming to have seen him wearing it.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
At the same time, it was a popular surf shirt like billabong, and a lot of islanders had one. Regardless, this had stuck with the jury at Frank's trial. It was his shirt, they thought, and Dana's blood. So he must have done it.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
I can't tell you how common and frustrating this attitude is as a wrongly convicted person. But it's human nature to believe that where there's smoke, there's fire. The problem is, in wrongful conviction cases, it's all smoke and no fire. But the more pressure there is from the media and the public to hold someone accountable, the more smoke there is.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
In April of 2015, the Hawaii Innocence Project publicly announced their investigation into Ian's case. And that sent it moving forward like a freight train. Well, in the legal world, that is. In the normal human world, their investigation would take years.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
They spent hours and hours poring over the case file, re-examining evidence, questioning witnesses and visiting the scene which had changed a lot since 1991. Directly west of vacation land is Kilauea, one of the world's most active volcanoes, only 40 miles away by car, and even less as the crow flies.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
The legendary active volcano is not far from the Schweitzer House and just a short hop to Hawaii Volcanoes National Park. I was actually visiting that park, watching the volcano erupt, when I got the news that Ian was being released from prison.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
In 2018, it caused chaos. This was a problem for Ken, Randy, and the Hawaii Innocence Project. Most places in the U.S., crime scenes don't just vanish overnight.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
By 2015, Ian has been in prison for about 15 years. But with the muscle he has on his defense team now, he is staying hopeful while his team works on a joint stipulation document that they will spend the next few years refining. And it's really just a document where all parties, in this case, Ian's defense team and the then-mayor Mitch Roth, agree on what they call, quote, "'undisputed facts.'"
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
And it serves as a legal shortcut where both sides agree on certain facts relevant to the case so they can just focus on what they disagree on. And as we've seen so far, there are quite a few disagreements, especially when it comes to the DNA. So the joint investigative teams hire a neutral DNA expert by the name of Lisa Calandro to help perform new testing on two items.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
The vaginal swabs collected from Dana's body and the hospital gurney sheet where semen was detected. It would take three years after entering into the joint investigation for the new DNA results to come in. And when they do, everyone is shocked. None of the DNA matches Frank Pauline Jr., Ian Schweitzer, or Sean Schweitzer. That's great news. And even better, there's a lead.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
For all the samples are consistent with each other in revealing a single DNA profile. This profile is labeled unknown male number one.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
Finally, in January of 2022, the Hawaii County Prosecutor's Office, together with the Hawaii Innocence Project and New York Innocence Project, file their joint stipulated facts, claiming their reinvestigation has led to the discovery of new evidence that was not presented to the jury in Ian's 2000 trial.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
But it still takes months until October 2022 for Sean Schweitzer and his attorney, Keith Shigatomi, to meet with Hawaii County prosecuting attorneys Shannon Kagawa and Kevin Hashizaki to discuss the polygraph test he took as part of his plea agreement. During this meeting, Sean recants his prior confession in full. And despite how unreliable the polygraph is, law enforcement still relies on it.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
So naturally, they decide to give Sean another, and there is zero detection of deception. So the defense team is ready and armed with their new strategy, using a wealth of evidence to prove the existence of this elusive figure, unknown male number one. Of course, Ian is aware of all that is going on. But as you heard in chapter one, what came next was a surprise to everyone.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
In January 2023, nearly 23 years after serving time in Arizona, Ian is flown back to Hawaii.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
And Ian's family and his entire legal team, including Jennifer Brown, are anxious for their day in court.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
During Ian's January 2023 hearing, his legal team invites experts to testify and walk the judge through all the forensic evidence used to convict the three men. Starting with the DNA evidence recovered from the hospital bedsheet and from the armpit of the Jimmy Zee T-shirt, which excluded Ian Schweitzer, Sean Schweitzer and Frank Pauline Jr.,
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
This DNA was consistent with samples taken from the vaginal swabs and from Dana's underwear, all of which pointed to a single person identified as unknown male number one.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
Like Ian, Sean is offered a deal. But unlike Ian, for the sake of his children's well-being, Sean accepts, with Ian's support.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
The investigation had pinned Ian's 1957 Volkswagen Beetle as the vehicle that hit Dana, Ireland. But the tire tracks from the bike accident scene and the Wa'awa'a Trail revealed inconsistencies in the tread patterns. They didn't match the VW. The experts go on to debunk the tread marks.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
Using the manufacturer's specs of the 1953 model, they point out significant differences in the Beetle's tread width, track width, and the wheelbase measurements compared to what police recorded at the scenes. They were closer to the markings of a small pickup truck. The VW Beetle would have to have been a highly modified stretch version of the model that Ian had driven.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
Next is the bite mark evidence. A forensic odontology expert looks into the bite marks and explains during the hearing how teeth and skin change over time, making it difficult to link bite marks to individuals. The expert also criticizes the original doctor's conclusions and believes that the marks were not, in fact, bite marks at all.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
Ultimately, Ian, Sean, and Frank are conclusively excluded as contributors to the DNA evidence. The use of the VW in the murder is debunked, and the bite mark analysis is dismissed as junk science. Each piece of the puzzle the defense presents points to one conclusion, a single culprit who remains unidentified.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
In other words, three innocent men were convicted of crimes they did not commit while the real perpetrator was living out his glory days.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
Now, this particular hearing is not to prove Ian's innocence, only to demonstrate that there is crucial evidence that ultimately was not presented at his initial trial. But on January 24th, 2023, Ian's conviction is vacated and the charges against him are dismissed. He's formally exonerated now.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
Local investigative journalist Lynn Kawano, who has spent years working on and covering this case, was in the courtroom that day and heard all of this firsthand.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
This is an underappreciated aspect of wrongful convictions. Many innocent people plead guilty because they can see that they won't get a fair shake from the courts. They're not wrong. And you can see how Sean's choice here to plead to something he didn't do is quite rational.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
Sean's plea agreement charges him with manslaughter and kidnapping by omission, asserting he failed to prevent the events from occurring rather than admitting his active participation in them. But the plea deal has a contingency. Accepting the plea deal not only requires a recorded confession, but also passing a polygraph test, implicating his brother in the process.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
As Ian and Frank have both now been convicted of Dana's murder, Sean's fate seems almost predestined. Freedom often comes at a steep cost. For Sean, the idea of pleading guilty to a crime he didn't commit is a bitter pill to swallow. And his attorney, Keith Shigatomi, is committed to doing whatever he can to help Sean.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
Sean takes the polygraph, and initially, the test detects deception. And no matter how hard he tries, Sean's confession is proving to be false. But instead of viewing these results as an indication of potential innocence, the prosecution decides to salvage their situation.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
The consensus around Sean's polygraph results is that they are inconclusive, a conclusion Detective Guillermo accepts with no objections. Until they arrive in court, and Judge Ricky May Amano presses for clear answers.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
But by 2000, the case is closed, despite no evidence pointing towards the three men. In the court of law, Frank and Ian are guilty of Dana Ireland's murder and will spend the rest of their lives behind bars. The prison Sean has to spend his time in after accepting the plea deal is a bit more invisible.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
With his plea deal settled, Sean focuses on caring for his twin daughters, who, unlike other kids at school, have to navigate an adult situation in a middle school setting. In one of their eighth-grade assignments, their teacher chose Murder in Paradise for a book report.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
Written by a reporter from the Hawaii Tribune-Herald, the book detailed Dana Ireland's murder, the ensuing investigation, and the complicated legal battle. As part of the assignment, one of the twins was asked to read the book aloud in class, putting a spotlight on the girls and their family's situation. Despite their efforts to confront the bullying, one daughter found herself suspended.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
This is another underappreciated aspect of wrongful convictions, the ripple effect on families. While I was on trial, my own sisters were going through a similar nightmare, being harassed in school, getting into fights to defend my honor. All the while, I was stuck in a cell, and they weren't telling me about the trauma they were going through because they didn't want to burden me further."
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
For Ian, every day in prison blurred into the next, a repetitive cycle that wore him down.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
The stifling sameness is one of the more mundane but maddening aspects of prison. You take for granted the variety that fills your life on the outside, trying out that new restaurant, bumping into your old friend from school, and then you're stuck with the same food, the same walls, the same people, day in, day out. Every inmate reacts to it differently.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
It made me depressed, and sadness became my new emotional baseline. For Ian, it triggered feelings of anger, but he fought to not let it consume him, recognizing its draining influence. He did his best to keep his spirits up and navigate his new reality.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
And it was only a matter of time before the Hawaii Innocence Project would set things into motion in a way that no one was able to before. Ken Lawson and Randy Roth, now co-directors of the Hawaii Innocence Project, start by making inroads with the prosecutor's office with their law students at the University of Hawaii at Manoa.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
Ken's next step was to present the case to the then mayor, Mitch Roth, to see if he would be willing to do a joint investigation.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
Ken Lawson and Randy Roth assemble the Marvel Avengers of defense teams. For it's not just them and their students, but they call in the help of Barry Sheck, co-founder of the Innocence Project in New York, and Susan Friedman, the staff attorney for the Innocence Project, with a focus in post-conviction DNA cases.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
But even with this kind of legal lineup, exonerating someone and proving innocence is an uphill battle. Here's Jennifer Brown, current associate director of the Hawaii Innocence Project.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
The year 1995 has come to an end. And as far as the Ireland's are concerned, they're no closer to getting justice for their daughter. After the new year, John and Louise come back to the island with a petition containing thousands of signatures. So, police take action.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
It's to everyone's surprise that the judge grants the request and the charges against Ian and Sean are dropped. The brothers are free now. But in the court of public opinion, they are anything but.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
No way. But the door is still open for retrial if new evidence emerges. And emerge it does. For example, the bite mark analyst decides to change his initial findings, saying he can't exclude Frank, Ian, or Sean as the source of the bite mark.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Bite mark evidence is now thoroughly debunked as junk science. But back in 1998, it held sway with experts, with judges, and with juries. This twist with the bite mark evidence is a bad sign for Ian and Sean. But even so, their defense is not convinced that the prosecution can make a case out of it alone, given the clear lack of DNA and physical evidence tying the three to the murder.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
But one thing I've learned, in a high-profile homicide investigation, it's not just the freedom of the accused on the line, but also the reputations and egos of prosecutors and law enforcement. Nobody likes to be wrong, and especially not with so many people watching.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
And so it's no surprise that with egg on their face after dropping the charges against the Schweitzer brothers, the prosecution was willing to find whatever scrap of evidence they could to prove they had been right all along. By May of 1999, Ian and Sean Schweitzer face a renewed indictment for kidnapping, sexual assault, and murder.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
But the legal language this time includes the phrase, hinting at the involvement of Frank and a potential fourth person who Frank alluded to in the past. the inclusion of this detail in the indictment gives prosecutors flexibility when addressing the DNA discrepancy before the jury.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Even though it doesn't match any of the three men on trial, they can claim it belongs to this fourth mystery accomplice, and that the lack of a match doesn't prove the innocence of Frank, Ian, or Sean. Again, this is similar to what happened with my case. Though all the DNA evidence pointed to Rudy Gaudet, he was convicted in his own trial of committing the crime with others.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
And that was used to implicate me and Raffaele and excuse the obvious absurdity that we'd somehow participated in a violent murder without leaving any traces of ourselves at the scene. But the bite mark isn't enough. The prosecution needs more. And they find what they're looking for in a man named Mike Ortiz.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Like many people at the center of this story, jailhouse informant Mike Ortiz is only several degrees of separation away from Sean and Ian Schweitzer, even though they've never met him. And Mike has plenty to gain from implicating the Schweitzer brothers, just like John Gonsalves and his family.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Gonsalves even writes a letter to the Ireland's about the reward money, sharing the financial, physical, and mental struggles he and his family have been through. To avoid being accused of acting in self-interest, he asks that the check be made out to his aunt. The Ireland's don't reply, but forward the letter to the prosecutor's office. but beyond the money, which he doesn't get, by the way.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Rumor inside the prison is that deals are being handed out left and right, and that this particular deal is the best deal out there.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
This scenario isn't just speculative. Incentivized informants, aka jailhouse snitches, are one of the leading causes of wrongful convictions. Advocates have repeatedly warned against offering incentives to informants since it creates enormous motivation for inmates like Mike Ortiz to give false testimony and evidence. Yet such incentivized testimony is relied upon in court to this day.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
While the brothers want nothing to do with the spotlight, Frank wants everyone to know his name and his story. But his story isn't what people are coming to believe. They think he's just as guilty as the Schweitzer brothers. So Frank decides to call up the one resource that always seems to listen, the media. It's time for him to clear some things up, but not just about his own involvement.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
With no physical evidence tying any of the men to Dana's murder and the DNA excluding them, Mike Ortiz could be the trigger the prosecution needs to push their case to trial. So investigators go speak with him.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
They speak with Mike in Minnesota, where he is being held for theft charges. This isn't the first time they have spoken with him, though. They got his initial statement over a phone call a few days earlier. Today's visit is to verify all that information one last time in person.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Three other inmates also come forward, all jailhouse informants and all anxious to cut their own deals in exchange for information they claim to have. Information that can be easily conveyed to them because Dana's case is widely known inside and outside the prison walls by this point. After investigators talk with Mike and these other informants, it's official.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
The case against Sean Schweitzer, Ian Schweitzer, and Frank Pauline Jr. will move forward. For the second time. And oh, that line from the investigator, have I promised you anything in exchange for this information? Well, actions speak louder than words.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
After their renewed indictment, the Schweitzer brothers are sent back to jail. Technically, together.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
By July 1999, several politicians' offices in both Hawaii and Washington, D.C. have become accustomed to the flood of letters from John and Louise Ireland, who remain committed to getting justice for their daughter. The pressure is everywhere, and things are now at a boiling point as Frank Pauline Jr. 's trial begins on July 21st.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Prosecutor Charlene Eboshi lays out the gruesome details of what they believed happened that day.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Sitting at the defense table, observers note a marked change in Frank Pauline's appearance. Gone is the tough guy facade. In its place, Frank exudes warmth and looks just like another guy in glasses and a button-up shirt, his tattoos barely visible above his collar. The defense, led by Cliff Hunt, leans on two key points as their arguments. That Frank's confessions to police were false.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
And that the physical evidence, mainly the DNA, does not support any of the three men being part of this.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
In a case fraught with complexity and emotion, and with local and international pressure for a conviction, conflicting expert testimonies further muddy the waters, leaving the jury tasked with unraveling the tangled web of evidence.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Dana's family are called to testify early in the trial, offering emotional testimony about Dana and the events that happened back on Christmas Eve 1991. As Sandy's voice chokes up, one of the jurors wipes away tears from her eyes.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Ida Smith, who says she found Dana at the fishing trail, is also emotional in her testimony.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
The lineup of witnesses includes three different prison inmates, all with a story to tell about how Frank had run his mouth in prison, telling them about his involvement in Dana's murder. Shannon Thumper Rodriguez was serving two life sentences for a double murder, and Jeffrey Alfonso was in on a drug conviction, and Shane Kobayashi on sexual assault.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Kobayashi's sentence of up to 15 years was reduced to three. The same day, members of the Pauline family testify. Frank's girlfriend, the mother of two of his children, Sharla Figueroa, takes the stand and shares that she and her grandmother heard Frank confess over a 1994 prison phone call.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
She goes on to recount the moment she saw damning evidence on television. A large shirt she had washed that she knew Frank wore and was bloody was now on the news linked to Ireland's death. Multiple witnesses would echo her realization. To some, like Cliff Hunt, the large shirt was obviously too small for Frank's stocky torso. Ken Lawson agrees.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
I'm Amanda Knox, and this is Three. Frank goes on to tell the reporter that it's true that he was there on Kapoho Kai Drive when Dana Ireland was murdered. But he wasn't there with the Schweitzer brothers. He was there by himself, smoking crack cocaine.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Under cross-examination, Sharla Figueroa says Pauline told her he did it to help his stepbrother, John Gonsalves. Finally, Frank Pauline decides to take the stand, still dressed in a nice shirt, tie, and glasses.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Frank admits, I am a liar on the stand. He says, I figured I could at least do that for my brother after all the stuff he done for me. Love is powerful, Cliff. That's all I can say. Love is powerful, man.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
In January 1996, they send the case to prosecutors, despite the fact that test results for Frank and the Schweitzer brothers and a few other potential suspects have failed to show any connection to Dana's murder. And by now, detectives are tired of Frank's countless changing stories. But they think he knows too many details to have made the whole thing up. But there's a problem for Frank.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
In a passing shot furthering the family drama of it all, Frank Pauline also says that he was planning to implicate his half-brother, Wayne Gonsalves, as the fourth participant in the killing, which of course lined up perfectly with what the police and prosecutors had been floating to.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Having done so many not-so-great things already in his young life, the possibility of Frank convincing the jury that this time he was a liar was a tall mountain to climb. He says on the stand, I may be dumb, but I didn't kill anybody.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
And yet, jurors deliberate for roughly 14 hours, and despite DNA and bite mark evidence failing to tie Frank to the murder, they find Frank Pauline guilty of murder in the second degree, kidnapping, and sexual assault in the first degree. Jurors say his confession played a crucial role in his conviction.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Now, despite the fact Ian and Sean did not confess ahead of their trial, with Frank now convicted, things aren't looking too good for them. Ian's trial is next, but he and their family struggle to find the right defense attorneys.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
When investigators meet with Frank at Oahu Prison on July 6, 1996, after his public recantation, he gives investigators this new story and a new name. But here's the thing. I can walk you through each specific detail of each of Frank's stories. But that's all they are. Stories. Stories that, according to Ken Lawson of the Hawaii Innocence Project, Frank hoped he'd benefit from.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
One night, Frank Pauline even calls Dana's father, John Ireland, from prison to tell him, quote, I know who really killed your daughter.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
And John tells investigators that this conversation ended with John telling Frank, quote, Around the same time, while Frank is serving a prison sentence for another crime, he is indicted for first-degree sexual assault against a minor under 14 years old back in 1993. And police are still receiving compelling tips that contradict the forensic results.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
A woman even tells them that Frank had once bitten her in the same location where the supposed bite mark was found on Dana. All in all, police are feeling pretty good about their chances with Frank. But the Ireland's? Not so much.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
A little more than five and a half years after the murder of Dana Ireland, on July 29, 1997, Frank Pauline is indicted and charged with second-degree murder, first-degree sexual assault, and kidnapping. But he's not the only one. A couple months later, on October 9th, 1997, Albert Ian Schweitzer and Sean Schweitzer are indicted on the same charges as Frank. All three of the men plead not guilty.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
While Frank has to wait it out in prison, Ian and Sean's parents do all they can to make bail, and part of the bail agreement is everyone is placed under a very strict gag order.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Though he expected to be treated as a witness after implicating the Schweitzer brothers, he eventually realizes that he's in potentially just as much trouble as they are. So he changes his tune.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
So they keep their mouths shut for the next six months as they prepare for their day in court. Ian and Sean's date is set for April 6th, 1998, while Frank is supposed to go on trial in January. But that gets delayed until July 1998. You may be wondering, why the separate trials? This happens more often than you might think, especially when the evidence implicating the suspects is thin.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
In my case, my boyfriend Raffaele and I were arrested early on after the police coerced me into signing statements which implicated myself, Raffaele, and my boss. I recanted those statements hours later, once the brutal police pressure was off. And when the forensic evidence came back two weeks later, it all pointed to a local burglar named Rudy Gade, not a trace of me, Raffaele, or my boss.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Gade even said at first that we weren't present at the crime scene. But instead of going after Gade alone, as they should have, the police doubled down on their initial mistake and charged all three of us with the crime. Godet then changed his story and pointed the blame at me and Raffaele.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
If they'd tried us all together, it would have been easy for my defense to show how all the evidence pointed to Godet as the sole killer. So instead, Godet was tried separately and was convicted in a fast-track trial with no opportunity for my defense to cross-examine him."
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Raffaele and I were then tried together, where prosecutors could take Godet's role as a judicial fact and build their case against us from there. Something similar happened with the Schweitzer brothers. By trying them separately from Frank, it would be harder for the Schweitzer's defense to cast doubt on Frank, the sole witness against them.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
And a potential failure to convict Frank wouldn't necessarily tank the prosecution's chances of convicting them. So the trial dates were set, and the prosecution began preparing its cases. Ian and Sean would have to prepare as well.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
That's Keith Shigatomi, who took over as Sean's counsel in March of 1998.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Then, in March, Sean and Ian's individual legal teams receive some shocking new information from the Hawaii district attorney. The defense team learns that DNA tests were done on the semen found on the vaginal swabs and on the hospital gurney that brought Dana Ireland into the ER. And neither Frank, Ian, nor Sean were a match.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Throughout 1996, the Schweitzer brothers are trying their best to maintain a normal life. Not only have they been living the past year under a police microscope, but thanks to Frank's confession and his media tour frenzy, the public has their eyes on them too. And to the islanders, these men were bad news.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
It's October of 1998, and Ian and Sean's trials are about to start when a dramatic ruling upends the entire case against the Schweitzer brothers.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
I arrived in Hawaii the day Ian Schweitzer was released from prison. I remember the first time I met other exonerees through the innocence network, and it changed my life. I suddenly realized I wasn't alone in going through an extraordinary injustice. These were people that I didn't have to explain myself to.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
He says he is often up at the crack of dawn to work out. Ian's a soft-spoken kind of guy, his voice warm and welcoming. Next to Ian is his younger brother, Sean. He's taller than Ian, with a goatee and long hair tied back. He's initially a little closed off. His arms are crossed at first, and he's quiet. But he eventually warms up and is every bit as kind and welcoming as Ian is.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
Regardless of their whereabouts that day, the biggest mystery of all is how could Frank claim they were all in Ian's 57 VW Bug that day back in 1991, when Sean and Ian claim they didn't even own it until 1992?
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
Ian and Sean's father tells investigators that the purchase wasn't made and the title wasn't transferred until sometime in February 1992.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
That should clear everything up, right? How could police believe Frank's story if it wasn't even possible for the Schweitzer brothers to be driving the VW that day? They even had the title paperwork to back it up. On top of that, the forensic results from the car didn't show any traces of blood or connection to Dana Ireland.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
It's moments like this where you'd think detectives would realize they were driving down the wrong path. But tunnel vision and confirmation bias sets in. Take my case, for example. I had an alibi, there was zero trace of me found in the room where my roommate Meredith was murdered, and my boyfriend Raffaele and I had no connection to the man whose DNA was all over the crime scene.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
But the investigation was biased by misinformation early on, and it led authorities to ignore these huge problems with their theory and press on regardless. That's just what detectives did with Ian and Sean Schweitzer. They felt they were close to a big break, and it blinded them. They weren't letting go.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
Thanks to Frank Pauline's confession, detectives feel they can now confidently clear their original three suspects, Roy Santos, Anthony Torres, and Frank Nasario. But as far as new suspects go, they're trying to keep that close to their chest. They're continuing to dig deeper into Frank, Ian, and Sean.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
But despite the numerous rumors about them now swirling around the island, detectives aren't ready to release their findings. But Frank Pauline? He's tired of waiting. It's been about six months since his first interview with detectives, and he's starting to think they may be using him. It seems like he was expecting more in return for his confession. So, Frank goes to the media.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
Frank's initial jailhouse interview starts a press tour for him. Each interview offers up something new, much of which he hasn't even shared with police.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
Money? Oh, yeah. There is a $25,000 reward offered up in regards to Dana's case. And remember, Frank Pauline also has family members in jail and would love to see them released. Here's Ken Lawson again.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
As Frank's story is reverberating throughout Hawaii, Dana's family is devastated. And angry. With the world's eyes now on them, detectives are pushing to gather just enough evidence for an arrest. But they're not moving all that quickly.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
They spend the first half of 1995 continuing to interview anyone with information about the Pauline Gonsalves family and or the Schweitzer's, but it's hard to distinguish the truth from island rumors. At this point, detectives have collected samples from the VW, mouth swabs, hairs, and dental impressions to compare to the bite mark left on Dana's chest from all the suspects, Ian, Sean, and Frank.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
They turn to Dr. Norman Sperber, a forensic odontologist, to compare the bite marks. We now know that bite mark evidence isn't scientifically valid, but even then, Dr. Sperber finds that none of the impressions match the bite mark. More importantly, there aren't any matches to the DNA.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
Frank's story also continues to change, and theories start to swirl around John Gonsalves' initial call to the Hawaii Police Department and Frank Pauline's confession, and maybe how they benefit from it.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
In November of 1993, about seven months before John made his phone call, John and his mother Pat, alongside his cousin Timmy and a few others, were tied to the largest cocaine conspiracy case in Big Island history at the time. And the family was in real trouble. They were facing charges of conspiracy to promote a dangerous drug in the first.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
So people are starting to think that Frank's initial confession was designed to benefit the Gonsalves, especially when in the spring of 1995, John Gonsalves agreed to a plea bargain with a reduced sentence, probation and 90 days in jail. Their mother's charges were dropped, too. The war between the Schweitzer family and the Pauline Gonsalves family is now on display for the public to see.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
And by April 1995, Frank continues to change his story. And on the 21st, he makes his fifth statement to the police. Frank calls up Detective Guillermo and now says a fourth person was involved. Frank says he saw his brother, Wayne Gonsalves, sexually assault Dana Ireland, and he immediately decided to run away and didn't return until 30 minutes later.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
So he can't really speak to anything else that happened during that time. But of course, when investigators take Frank out the next day for another reconstruction, asking him to recount everything again now with this fourth person, Wayne, involved, his version of the story keeps changing and just gets more confusing.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
During our visit with Ian and Sean, we asked them every question under the sun, trying to understand how they became involved in one of the most notorious murders in Hawaii history.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
Frank's mom, Pat, who is no longer facing any criminal charges, says that despite what Frank is saying, he didn't have anything to do with the murder. She even gives him an alibi and says Frank was home at the time of the crime, but his drug use is the reason he believes he was at the scene. When detectives talk to Wayne, he denies being a part of any of this.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
He thinks Frank implicated him to avoid taking the blame alone and thinks he probably just wanted company in jail. Frank is obviously a reckless dude. And he hasn't thought through exactly how all his little stories wouldn't just ruin the Schweitzer's lives, but his own life too. Because he may just be a pawn in an even bigger chess game.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
So when I heard that Ian was being exonerated, I was thrilled to pay that energy forward by welcoming him into freedom and into our community of wrongly convicted brothers and sisters. But it takes time to adjust. It took me years to wrap my mind around everything that happened to me.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
But the biggest question was, if Ian and Sean had nothing to do with Dana Ireland's murder, why did Frank Pauline say they did? I'm Amanda Knox, and this is Three. Chapter 3, Family Feud.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
In June of 1991, about six months before Dana Ireland was murdered, Ian and Sean's mother, Linda Schweitzer, actually filed a police report against one of the Gonsalves boys, Timmy, claiming he was threatening to fight the Schweitzer family and was throwing rocks at the Schweitzer home. That's about as far as any type of interaction between the families went.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
While Linda Schweitzer worked for the prosecutor's office and Jerry Schweitzer, their father, was your quintessential neighborhood dad, the Gonsalves were known throughout the area to be notorious for selling and using drugs. Fast forward.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
Almost three years after Linda Schweitzer filed her report against Timmy, John Gonsalves calls the Hawaii Police Department and says his half-brother Frank Pauline told him information about Dana Ireland's case, that the Schweitzer brothers killed her.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
That's Ken Lawson, current co-director of the Hawaii Innocence Project, a member of the legal team representing the Schweitzer brothers.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
Sound a little sketch? In June of 1994, more than two weeks after his first conversation with the Hawaii Police Department, Frank sits down again with Detective Guillermo and his team. And this time, he's had a minute to think about his answers, but still admits a lot of the details are not 100% concrete.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
Nonetheless, Frank says that on December 24th, 1991, he was picked up by the Schweitzer brothers in a purple VW Beetle, once owned by his cousin, Timmy Gonzales. Ian drove, his brother Sean rode shotgun, and Frank sat in the back. In this interview, Frank says that after the Schweitzer brothers picked him up, they stopped six or seven times to smoke crack cocaine.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
And while they were driving around, they spotted a woman walking her bike along the road. According to Frank, Ian turned the car around after passing the woman and accelerated right towards her, making contact.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
And so it wasn't until July of 2023 that our team went back to the Big Island and to Fern Forest, a small community of a thousand or so, about 45 minutes south of Hilo, to talk in-depth with Ian and his brother Sean. The drive from Hilo to Fern Forest is full of tall greenery. The houses are set back off the road, each with a privacy gate, or no trespassing sign.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
He says he then watched the brothers load the woman into the trunk of the VW and that he refused to help them, but rode along as they took her to an unknown dirt road towards the ocean, where he watched Ian sexually assault her.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
Knowing they could be identified, Frank claims Ian decided he needed to get rid of her. So Frank says he saw him grab a tire iron and hit her over the head with it. But then he's not sure what happened. He doesn't remember if the brothers put the woman back in the trunk or if they just left her there. But he knows that afterwards, all three of them headed back to the Schweitzer's house.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
Ian showered and Frank and Sean washed the purple VW Bug. Once Ian finished his shower, Frank says Ian brought a black trash bag outside so they could all put their clothes in the bag and then he threw it in the bushes in the yard before the Schweitzer's dropped Frank back off at his house.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
And since then, Frank says, the only other conversation he's had with Ian was when Ian told him at some point to keep quiet about everything or else. So what a story. And detectives think so, too. Knowing Frank's reputation and history of lying, this didn't seem like the slam dunk they were looking for. But with all the detail in his story, detectives at least entertain the idea.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
And that same day, they have Frank take them through the route he claims he and the Schweitzer's took before running into Dana. Starting at Frank's house, Frank takes detectives through their drive that day, vaguely pointing out key spots. But he can't say exactly where they initially hit Dana while she was riding her bike.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
But either way, the more Frank talks, no matter how specific or general he is, the more police are feeling confident about his story. But at the same time, remember, Dana's case by now has made national news, and everyone on the island knows the details, including the locations. So this isn't exactly exclusive information.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
Nonetheless, detectives turn their attention to the Schweitzer's, and specifically to the VW bug. They speak with the Gonsalves, who say that Ian bought the VW from their family, and while they aren't exactly sure what date, they know it's sometime in 1991.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
But when Ian Schweitzer decided to buy the VW Bug, he claims it wasn't from Timmy, even though the Gonsalves say he did. He says he bought it from a guy named Shannon who bought it from Timmy, and Ian bought it to add to their already growing collection.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
So on June 26th, detectives receive a search warrant and head to the Schweitzer household to check their place out and specifically the VW bug.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
Occasionally, we spot one of the residents on foot on the road, and they offer up a friendly wave or smile back at us. When we pull up to Sean Schweitzer's house, the gate is open, and the yard has a scattering of cars and trucks. Ian Schweitzer is standing outside waiting to greet our team. At 52, he has short, graying hair, but he looks like he's in the best shape of his life.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
When Sean first arrives at the Hawaii Police Department, accompanied by his father, Jerry, he isn't 100% sure what is going on, until detectives start questioning him.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
Sean tells investigators that on December 24, 1991, he was at home. He says that he can't say for sure where Ian was, but he knows for a fact that he himself was home, because that's where he always spends his Christmas Eves. Investigators also talk to Sean's dad, Jerry, and when they ask him about why the Gonsalves would implicate his sons, he tells them everything we currently know.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
That their families did not get along, and specifically, John and Frank's cousins, Timmy and Wayne, tried to start fights with the family and broke a window at their house. When Sean's asked to take a polygraph, initially he is skeptical, not trusting the machines, but later changes his mind, offering to take the test a different day so he can get back to caring for his children.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
Next stop was Sean's brother, Ian. Three days later, the Hawaii Police Department gets a hold of him while he's living in Kauai working in health care. To those who know Ian, like his sister-in-law, Treaty, and Randy Roth from the Hawaii Innocence Project, this work suited Ian.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
And like Sean, Ian remembers hearing about the murder of this young woman in Vacationland, but didn't give it a ton of thought at the time either.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
Ian remembers pretty clearly where he and Sean were at on December 24th, 1991.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
The Hawaii Innocence Project, like all innocence projects around the country, is a nonprofit dedicated to freeing people they believe were wrongly convicted, often by finding exculpatory DNA evidence. Ken Lawson was hired as a clerk of sorts by the co-director at the time, Randy Roth, in 2010.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
And locals are vocal about their own frustrations with the investigation.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
Dana's father, John, keeps the pressure on the investigators, praying they're onto something soon. But he's tired of waiting. The Irlands also pursue a lawsuit against the state and county for their delayed arrival to the scene to help Dana on Christmas Eve in 1991. They ultimately settle out of court. But no amount of money can make up for what the Ireland family lost. They don't want this.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
They want Dana. Or at the very least, answers as to why they no longer have her. By 1994, two and a half years after Dana's murder, despite numerous leads, tons of interviews, no arrests have been made. But rumors continue to swirl on the Big Island. Indict Dana Ireland's murderer's bumper stickers are spotted on vehicles on the island as the pressure to find the killer has only intensified.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
On May 23, 1994, lead detective Stephen Guillermo gets a call from a man wanting to talk to him because he says that this guy Frank Pauline Jr. and two brothers Ian and Sean Schweitzer are connected to the murder of Dana Ireland. This isn't the first time investigators have heard the name Frank Pauline in connection to Dana Ireland.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
He first got on the Hawaii Police Department's radar only three months after Dana's murder through an anonymous tip that claimed Frank was either involved or had information about the murder. And even though Frank's got a record, it doesn't seem like investigators are all that interested in him, even after receiving various calls about him throughout 1993. But this one is different.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
The caller is reaching out on behalf of a guy named John Gonsalves, who is Frank Pauline's half-brother. And John himself is no stranger to police either. Investigators know a lot of the Gonsalves-Pauline family. They are frequent flyers of the Hawaii Police Department. Two of the Gonsalves brothers, Timmy and John, were both arrested for drug crimes a year prior.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
But when the caller explains why they're calling, they don't say John himself had anything to do with the murder of Dana Ireland. They say that John will be reaching out to the Hawaii Police Department soon because he is ready to come forward and provide information on the case, specifically about his half-brother, 21-year-old Frank Pauline Jr.,
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
After getting off the phone with this tipster, detectives wait, but not long. About 25 minutes later, John Gonsalves calls, ready to spill the beans. On the call, John tells police that about a week earlier, his brother Frank flat out admitted to him that he was there when Dana was murdered.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
He says he was riding in a pickup truck with two brothers, then 20-year-old Ian Schweitzer and Ian's 16-year-old brother, Sean. And he watched with his own eyes as the Schweitzer brothers attacked Dana Ireland. So naturally, investigators want to talk to Frank to hear his side of the story. But when they do, he doesn't exactly sing like a canary.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
After Ken became associated with the Hawaii Innocence Project, he eventually joined the faculty at the University of Hawaii Law School, alongside the person who first welcomed him into the Hawaii Innocence Project.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
Frank plays a little coy with detectives, saying he isn't ready to speak quite yet. But detectives don't take no for an answer, and they get him transported from the Halava Correctional Facility, where he was already serving a 10-year sentence for a separate crime, to the Attorney General's office for an interview with lead detective Guillermo.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
And when they sit down, Frank gives somewhat of a statement. Frank claims that on December 24th, 1991, he was picked up by the Schweitzer brothers after they asked him if he wanted to do some drugs with them. But Frank also says he wasn't close friends with Ian and Sean. So it's unclear how this interaction could have even been provoked to begin with.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
But nevertheless, Frank says he decides to go with them anyways. But then, before going on, Frank does something weird. He decides he needs to, quote, sort out the details before giving Detective Guillermo any more info. Mostly because his memories are a little fuzzy, he says, because he was high on cocaine while he was with the Schweitzers.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
So Frank finishes up his interview by telling Detective Guillermo that he vaguely remembers Ian hitting a woman with a tire iron. And sometime after the attack, the clothing the brothers were wearing got thrown away. Somewhere. And then Frank says, I'll send you guys a more detailed statement of what happened that day soon. See ya.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
And what's even stranger is that the investigators are fine with that. They allow Frank the time to flesh out his story. This should have been a huge red flag for the reliability of his statement. Even so, this outlined play-by-play of what Frank claims happened the evening of December 24th, 1991 never comes. But investigators do sit down with Frank several more times.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
Now, to understand anything about the next conversations investigators have with Frank, you need to understand the culture of the Big Island, the one Lynn Kawano told us about when we first met.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
Since first looking into this case, Ken Lawson and his team at the Hawaii Innocence Project have spent a lot of time in the case file from the investigation. They wanted to know exactly how we ended up where we are today. How so many names got thrown into this mess. Because remember, we're not even to an arrest yet, let alone a conviction.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
And over the years, he rose through the ranks to become an associate director and now co-director of the Hawaii Innocence Project. But Ken began practicing law long before then, starting out in 1989 in Cincinnati, Ohio, where he also opened up his own law firm in 1993.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
And that's because, as Ken Lawson sees it, from the very beginning, these witness interviews weren't exactly handled appropriately. I'm Amanda Knox, and this is Three. Chapter 2, The Aftermath. We mentioned in episode one that at the time of the incident, Eric told investigators that he and his girlfriend lived on Illilani Road.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
And on that day, December 24th, he said he was outside of his house when he noticed a pickup truck at the intersection of Illilani Road and Kapoho Kai Drive facing southwest, which was the spot where Dana was presumably hit. He recalled the specifics during a walkthrough of the scene with law enforcement.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
But when investigators interview Eric again, that's not all he claims to remember. Now he's saying he can even remember what the driver specifically looked like.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
Eric also says he believes this guy has a brother named Chris. And that, combined with the description, makes investigators believe he's got to be talking about someone they are quite familiar with, a local named Frank Nasario. Now, here's the thing with our man Eric. Almost every time he's interviewed, he throws in some new piece of information he's confident matters and is accurate.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
His firm handled many high-profile clients throughout 1993 to 2007, like now University of Colorado Boulder football coach Deion Sanders. But what's unique here is that Ken relates to many of his clients now in a way very few lawyers do. He had a successful practice until his license was revoked because of misconduct while addicted to prescription painkillers.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
But even though Eric's accounts are a little unpredictable, this is the best lead detectives have, so they continue to look deeper into Frank while still keeping their options open. And keeping options open isn't exactly a challenge.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
Every day, they are getting a slew of tips calling out basically every person on the Big Island who owns a pickup truck that even remotely resembles the ones witnesses say they saw at or near the scene. Add to that the names of anyone known to be sketchy in some way or another, and as you can imagine, there are a lot of names. But in the mix are two individuals that investigators can't ignore.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
27-year-old Anthony Torres, who happens to be Frank's brother-in-law, and 21-year-old Roy Santos. Between Frank Nassario, Anthony Torres, and Roy Santos, detectives now have what they believe to be three viable suspects for different reasons. Frank Nassario checks a lot of investigators' boxes. He matches the description of the man Eric Carlsmith claims to have seen near the accident.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
His family owns several Datsun pickup trucks, one of which has black primer paint with some aqua bluish-green spots on it, and detectives receive several tips placing Frank in the area at the time.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
Then you have Anthony Torres, who gets on investigators' radar because he happens to be married to Frank's sister and lives with Frank, so he has access to those same vehicles the Nasarios are known to use. Also, several individuals call in tips claiming to have seen him in one of those pickup trucks. And lastly, there's Roy Santos.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
In early January, police receive a call from an individual who says they noticed a tan-colored van parked near where Dana Ireland had initially been run over. And other witnesses reiterate this, saying they believe they saw Roy driving the tan-colored van with two others on Christmas Eve near the scene.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
That's Lynn Kawano, award-winning chief investigative reporter for Hawaii News Now, which, according to their website, is the state's dominant multimedia news organization with the largest digital news footprint in the islands. Lynn has been following and covering Dana's case for a long time.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
He pleaded guilty to the felony of obtaining controlled substances by fraudulent means and was sentenced to 24 months in prison, which he served 10 of before heading to a living sober facility in Hawaii for six months, followed by 12 months of supervisory release.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
The same was true in my case. Perugia was a small town, and violent crime was rare. So news of my roommate Meredith's murder shocked the city and drew international attention. And that put enormous pressure on the local authorities to solve the crime fast. But when investigators move too quickly, mistakes get made.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
By February of 1992, all three men are brought in for separate interviews and each claim the same thing. They are not responsible for the murder of Dana Ireland. But are they telling the truth? Are the witnesses? Investigators bring out the polygraph machine. Witness Eric Carlsmith's girlfriend Karina takes a polygraph test and passes.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
And since she does, the examiner decides Eric's test is unnecessary because of the fact they were together at the time of their observations and basically submitted statements that were similar in nature. Mark Evans, the friend Dana went to see after leaving the rental on Christmas Eve, also passes the polygraph. Suspects Frank Nassario and Anthony Torres refuse to take the test.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
Then there's Roy Santos and his mother, who owns the tan-colored van. During both of their polygraphs, alleged deception is detected. Not a great look to detectives in the 1990s, who place a lot of faith in the accuracy of the polygraph. Today, we know better.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
The polygraph cannot measure deception, but rather measures signs of physiological arousal, your blood pressure and pulse, your breath rate, perspiration, and skin conductivity. And there are many potential sources of stress and anxiety, aside from deception, that may alter someone's physiological responses. This is why polygraph results are typically inadmissible in court.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
Still, many laypeople and those in law enforcement continue to put unwarranted faith in the accuracy of the polygraph, which so often can send investigators down the wrong trail and derail justice, as we'll see in this case. After interviewing their three prime suspects, investigators also collect DNA samples from them. Well, from who they're able to.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
Roy and Anthony comply with the detectives' requests, including a search and collection of samples from their vehicles. But Frank is not playing ball. So for the next few months, investigators are in a bit of a waiting pattern as their samples are being tested.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
But by July 1992, any hope investigators have that the DNA samples will bring them and the community the answers they're craving is dashed. The FBI lab says that none of the DNA collected from the vehicles in question matches the DNA from the crime scene and from Dana's body. They've hit a dead end. The police keep an eye on Frank Nassario, Anthony Torres, and Roy Santos.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
But for almost a year, there are no major movements as detectives continue to hit wall after wall. All throughout this time, John and Louise Ireland, who are both approaching 70, continue to make the exhausting 4,800-mile commute between their Virginia home and Hawaii, hoping each time that maybe today will be the day they get justice for Dana.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
But when they arrived, Dana's mom, Louise, saw what was going on, assumed Dana had been involved in some kind of accident, and so the family headed over to the local hospital in case she showed up. But they never imagined she would show up like this. They watch in shock as the doctors do their best to save Dana. But she is just too far gone.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
A little after midnight on Christmas morning, Dana dies after hours of attempted life-saving measures. Her cause of death, exsanguination or blood loss due to multiple traumatic injuries of the head, neck, chest, abdomen, and pelvis. In Dana's autopsy report, Dr. Charles Reinhold notes a disturbing amount of injuries.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
Dana's chest, back, arms, legs, and face were covered with abrasions, cuts, and bruises. Her collarbone and pelvis were fractured. She had extensive hemorrhaging in her heart, lungs, stomach, and bladder. But the doctors find something even more disturbing and which can't be explained by a car accident. a bite mark on her left breast, and the presence of semen.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
So while Dana's family is reeling from her sudden death, police scour not just the one, but the two scenes related to Dana, which are about five miles apart. The first scene is on Kapoho Kai Drive, where Dana's bike was discovered. They find tire impressions in the dirt.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
They make plaster casts of the tracks and take several pictures of tire marks, including a single deep gouge mark on Kapoho Kai Drive, which larger double tire tracks lead into. Detectives identify the gouge mark as the point at which the bicycle tire was driven into the road from the collision. They find Dana's black bicycle seat on the side of the road near the tracks.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
Once finished at the collision scene, detectives head five miles away to the Waawaa Fishing Trail, where Dana had been found. She was about 80 to 90 feet off the main road in the bushes, just off the right side of the trail. Leaves surrounding her were bloody, too, as if she'd been placed or possibly thrown there in an effort to conceal her.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
Her jean shorts and her missing white avia tennis shoe are found nearby. But there's more. There's a child's black McGregor shoe, the left one only, and two white socks stuffed inside. There's also a blue-colored T-shirt, size large, with a print of a station wagon and the Jimmy Z logo, which was a popular brand at the time, especially on the Big Island.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
Then, up the trail, about halfway between the road and where Dana was found, a black knit adult sock and a red panty, size large. Police also find cigarette butts and two Corona beer bottles. Everything gets collected and tagged. But what is at the scene is only part of the story. The question still stands as to how Dana could have ended up there.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
After speaking with her family and witnesses at both crime scenes, authorities tried to build a rough timeline of events based on everything they know so far, which begins at the home of Mark Evans in Apohika'o at 4.10 p.m.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
Mark was the friend Dana went to visit on her bike the night of the murder, and he told police that while their relationship in the beginning leaned a little towards the romantic side, they were totally platonic. Sometime shortly thereafter, the police speak to a witness who says they saw a woman who looked like Dana passing places called Shacks and Secrets, both local surfing hangout spots.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
Based on this, authorities determined she was run over at approximately 4.40 p.m., less than half a mile from her parents' Vacationland rental home, which she was most likely headed back to for the family's Christmas Eve dinner.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
Then, as she was riding her bike, she was struck in the rear by a vehicle heading in the Makai direction, aka east towards the sea, on Kapoho Kai Drive, which would indicate that Dana was also traveling in the Makai direction, on the right side of the road, before someone grabbed her and drove away to move her to that isolated area along the trail.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
There, she would endure a nightmare before being left for dead. As detectives continued to work to fill in the pieces, a flurry of calls and leads about trucks, vans, and SUVs believed to be in the area flows in from the community. One comes from Eric Carlsmith. He lives on the first house on the left on Ililani Road, and he says he was with his girlfriend Karina on Christmas Eve.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
He tells police he noticed a pickup truck facing southwest at the intersection of Ililani Road and Kapohokai Drive. This was the spot where Dana was hit.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
So police are focusing on a truck or van. And this makes sense. The road from Vacationland to the Ocean Trail off Beach Road, where Dana was found, is barely drivable by a car. It's a tucked away, isolated, unpaved fishing trail of sorts, and really only known to the locals in the area. It'd be hard to find otherwise. But obviously, they still need more.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
And fortunately, or maybe unfortunately, there's no shortage of witness accounts. And this is the part where I would have walked you through detectives interviewing each one of them from the day Dana was found. Like Ida Smith, the woman who first found Dana.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
Or Demian Fierro, who was 10 at the time and was one of the first ones to discover the broken bike in the road.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
But like I said before, the story we were planning on telling you when we first started investigating in 2023 is a very different one today in 2025. Which means how we tell it to you is also very different, because what holds weight now is not the same as then. So instead, in this series, I'll be focusing on what you need to know to understand how we ended up where we are today.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
How so many lives got tangled up in one of the most devastating and high-profile cases to ever hit the Big Island. Coming up on this season of 3... There were no winners. There were no winners in this entire situation.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
That's Ken Lawson, the co-director of the Hawaii Innocence Project. They have been looking into Ian's case since around 2006. But when Ken started in 2010, he took it over, and ever since, he's been damn near determined to prove his client's innocence. But no one had predicted that today would be the day. Especially not Ian.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
To everyone's surprise, the judge announces his verdict later that same day.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
And for almost two decades, the Innocence Project has been trying to help him prove it. Ian's team, including the legendary Barry Sheck, who co-founded the original Innocence Project in 1992, well, they would spend the next seven hours stating their case in front of Judge Kubota.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
In a matter of hours, Ian Schweitzer is free. Well, sort of. It's a feeling very few people understand. Being charged and convicted of a crime you didn't commit. While his story played out a little differently, Ian's brother Sean is also one of those people.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
As the verdict was read, a crowd outside the courtroom burst into cheers. Inside the courtroom, Amanda Knox and her family began to sob. I'm Amanda Knox, and while studying abroad in 2007, what was supposed to be a once-in-a-lifetime college experience turned into a life-altering nightmare.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
One I would spend the following eight years trapped inside of and will carry with me for the rest of my life.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
In February 2023, after Ian was released from prison, I traveled to Hawaii and met him in person. Little did I know that almost two years later, I would be sitting down now with you all to tell you what has happened since that very conversation. Behind every wrongful conviction is a devastating and complicated web that is almost impossible to untangle.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
It's 9.21 a.m. on Tuesday, January 24, 2023, and a man named Ian Schweitzer is standing in a courtroom in Hilo, Hawaii. He's not a total stranger to this feeling or to the criminal justice system in general. He's been here before. But this time, it's for very different reasons. Over 23 years ago, Ian was convicted of a crime he firmly asserts he did not commit.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
But during this series, we're going to try to do just that. Because justice doesn't have to be complicated. And the victims in this case deserve clarity. Justice too long delayed is justice denied.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
Over the past 18 months, we've had a team of people who've been out on the Hawaiian islands investigating this story, talking to the people that were there firsthand, some who have never spoken out before, recording in-depth interviews that you will hear nowhere else. We've poured through nearly 40,000 pages of documents about this case.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
We've listened to countless hours of audio, from witness stories and confessions to secret grand jury testimony and never-before-heard interviews with jailhouse informants. All so we could discover the truth behind the murder of Dana Ireland and the three families who will never be the same because of it.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
But what we didn't expect was that the story would change drastically over the last year and a half as we investigated. Actually, no one did. In July 2024, the world found out who really killed Dana Ireland. A name that never popped up on investigators' radar matched the DNA left at the scene and on the body of Dana Ireland.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
But to understand how we got here, you have to understand what has transpired in the 33 years since Dana Ireland was murdered. I'm Amanda Knox, and this is 3, Season 2. Murder in Vacationland.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
We're asking you to come with us to the Big Island to hear the untold story of what really happened to Dana Ireland and how her death impacted the lives of three families, the Irlands, the Schweitzers, and the Paulines.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
Chapter 1, Christmas in Hawaii. It's December 1991 in a small town, Kapoho, located on the eastern end of what's known as the Big Island of Hawaii. It's not the place most mainlanders think of when they imagine the Hawaii islands. It's quieter, slower, serene, the ultimate tropical paradise, and often called one of Hawaii's best-kept secrets.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
And within Kapoho, there is this little subdivision called, almost too perfectly, Vacationland. At around 5.30 p.m. on Christmas Eve, a local woman named Ida Smith had just gotten home from running some afternoon errands and is settling back when she hears something strange. The call of a hawk? No. She realizes what she's hearing is not bird calls.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
It's sounding more like a girl who is calling for help. Ida quickly follows the direction of the faint screams, which take her towards a vacant house near her property. And then she sees her. About 80 to 90 feet down the narrow gravel roadway towards the waterfront, surrounded by bushes, is a young woman in desperate need of medical attention.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
She is barely clothed, and it's clear she is suffering from numerous injuries by the And based on her appearance, Ida also believes the woman has been sexually assaulted.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
Ida books it to the main road on the other side of her home to flag down the first car she sees. Thankfully, it doesn't take long, and in a matter of minutes, a group of individuals, including a nurse who lives nearby, are down there comforting the victim as they anxiously wait for an ambulance to arrive. And they're praying it won't be long, because the woman's condition is only getting worse.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
It's obvious she is in severe pain, and through it, she's trying to make words. Some are coherent, some not. But they can make out her name. Dana. Dana. By 6.20 p.m., an officer makes his way to the scene, but unfortunately, the ambulance doesn't arrive for another hour. Once arrived, Ida and the group watch as Dana is whisked away towards Hilo Hospital, two hours after Ida found her.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
It might have been sooner if she wasn't in such a remote area, but it was the type of path you wouldn't even know was there unless you knew. By 8 p.m., a flurry of people, including paramedics, rush Dana into the hospital on a gurney. And there, in the waiting room, is her family. They've been there for about two hours.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
Ever since they figured out something was wrong, and now they are watching their Dana, 23-year-old Dana Ireland, fighting for her life. When detectives speak with Dana's older sister, Sandy, in the waiting room, they discover Sandy moved to the Big Island a few years earlier, and Dana came to visit often. Then, only two months prior, Dana decided to stay in Hawaii for good.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
So for the holidays, Dana and Sandy's parents, John and Louise Ireland, decided to fly in from Virginia and join them on the Big Island for a few weeks. The family says earlier that day, before they were planning on celebrating Christmas Eve, Dana decided to go on a bike ride. So she borrowed her sister Sandy's bike and headed out to her friend Mark's house, which is about a seven-mile ride.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
But when Sandy and her boyfriend Jim were driving over to their parents' rental house around 5 p.m., they saw something on the side of the road that caught their attention. A crowd of people all gathered around what looked like the scene of an accident. Sandy went from curious to terrified when she recognized the crushed bike lying in the road.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
It was her bike, the one she had just let Dana borrow a couple hours earlier. Next to it was Dana's wristwatch, the band completely broken, a foot-long chunk of blonde hair, and a single white athletic shoe, still tied. Sandy and Jim rushed to her parents' rental, which was just minutes away, to tell them what they saw, and they all headed back to the scene.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
I was in a grocery store in Hilo buying milk for my toddler when I saw the newspaper at the checkout stand. I recognized the expression on Ian's face, the struggle to grasp that he was actually free. And in that moment, the grocery store around me took on the surreal feel it had when I first came home, a feeling I knew Ian would experience soon enough.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
I'd missed the rise of Obama and our intro into the iconic Taylor Swift and a million other things. Compared to me, Ian had so much more to catch up on.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
As for Frank Pauline Jr., based on all the forensic evidence, he was not responsible for the crime against Dana, and none of his confessions can be substantiated. But this came too late for Frank Pauline Jr., who died in prison after another inmate attacked him in the wreckyard on his 42nd birthday.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
That's Miles Briner, the attorney who has been handling Frank Pauline's estate since 2023. And he knows that Frank wasn't exactly the most stand-up guy at moments. He was complicated, and not a lot of his actions can be easily explained. But he is confident in his client's innocence.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
In the October 2023 hearings, Frank Pauline's conviction was also under question. So Frank's family was in attendance, and members from the Paulines and Schweitzers came face-to-face for the first time. Two of Frank's aunts were there to support their nephew, even though he had been dead now for over eight years.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
Since his release, Ian can't work yet and is now living with his brother, Sean. Despite the guilt that Sean suffered for all those years while Ian was in prison, the two have grown closer than ever. Yet, they will never get back the time lost, nor forget the pain or trauma the past couple decades have brought them. Which brings us to the end of 2023.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
Through the dedication of the Hawaii Innocence Project team, their colleagues at several forensic DNA labs, and the advancements in DNA science, a DNA profile was created for the infamous unknown male number one. His exact identity still remains a mystery throughout 2023, which could mean one of two things. One... Whoever killed Dana hasn't committed any other crimes.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
Or, two, their DNA hasn't been collected and entered into the database in the years since. Regardless, this means Dana Ireland's murder is still unsolved.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
Remember John Gonsalves, the man who initially reached out to Hawaii PD and told them to expect a call from Frank with information about Dana Ireland's killer? We reached out to John and we were able to get him on the phone.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
We tried to make plans to talk more extensively. He never called us back. Years before his death in 2015, Frank actually wrote Ian a letter in prison, apologizing for everything he did and admitting that Ian had nothing to do with it. He sent the letter through a retired judge, Mike Heavey, who advocated for my own innocence and has since become a friend. Here's a VO actor reading Frank's letter.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
I'm Amanda Knox, and this is Three. Chapter 6, Unknown Male Number One. Only four days after his release, Randy Roth and Ken Lawson of the Hawaii Innocence Project have dinner with Ian.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
Now, the estate of Frank Pauline is also working on his posthumous exoneration, something that has never been done in the history of the state of Hawaii.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
And this is where our story ended. Or so we thought. We were going to monitor it closely over the next few months, knowing that at some point in time, Ian and Sean would have hearings to hopefully be fully declared factually innocent and receive their well-deserved compensation from the state.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
But in July of 2024, when we reached out to the Hawaii Innocence Project to make sure we were all buttoned up for release, we were shocked by the response we received. End quote. End quote.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
While the Hawaii PD has publicly acknowledged their continued cooperation with the Hawaii Innocence Project to find the killer right after Ian's exoneration, we were shocked to learn that they also asked for all the DNA evidence and case information back from the Hawaii Innocence Project.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
They also assigned a new officer to the case, and they shared with the media that new interviews or re-interviews are taking place now. But despite the news that the biggest murder case in modern Hawaii history convicted the wrong people, everyone has suddenly gone quiet. And so the question that spread like shockwaves throughout Hawaii back on Christmas Eve 1991 still stands.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
Who killed 23-year-old Dana Ireland, and why? When we first traveled to Hawaii to begin our coverage on the murder of Dana Ireland and the subsequent wrongful convictions of Albert Ian Schweitzer, Sean Schweitzer, and Frank Pauline Jr., our hope was to help push these cases even just a little bit towards real justice through national attention.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
We wanted the world to know where the true innocence lies in this case, and that there is a full list of potential suspects screaming for the Hawaii Police Department's attention. For the sake of three families. The Ireland family, the Schweitzer family, and even the Paulines. And almost a full year later, we were ready to do just that.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
But little did we know everything that was happening behind the scenes.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
the seemingly endless choices after a world of deprivation. Even just the color palette of a place like this, with its bright fruits and vegetables and packaging, was a shock after years of gray concrete and steel. In the blink of an eye, Ian went from a prisoner of the Saguaro Correctional Center in Arizona to a free man back in his home of Hilo, Hawaii.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
A few days after that dinner, I met Ian for the first time as we shared the stage at a Hawaii Innocence Project event to educate law students about the causes and costs of a wrongful conviction.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
And one area that is in desperate need of change is how the wrongly convicted are supported after release. Emerging from prison is destabilizing and disorienting, whether you're guilty or innocent. But ironically, the guilty are provided many more resources when they are paroled, from counseling to help with housing, medical care, and food.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
The wrongly convicted, by contrast, often don't even get a bus pass.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
But there's compensation, right? There's no guarantee, especially because many wrongly convicted people who get released aren't done with the legal battle to clear their name. Not guilty isn't the same as innocent. In my own case, though I was acquitted in 2011, the Italian courts retried me for the same crime in absentia.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
He walked out of the courtroom, not in shackles like he had walked in, but hand in hand with his mom and dad, who for the last 30 years since all this started, had been mourning the life they all lost. After years in prison, stepping into the outside world is like stepping through the looking glass. There's a distorted surreality to the mundane.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
I was found guilty again, and I had to appeal again, all the while facing extradition back to Italy. I spent another four years in that limbo, unable to plant roots or move on with my life, fearing that the future would take me back to that prison cell across the world.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
How do you get a job or date or even move through society when everyone you meet sees you under a cloud of suspicion because you're not yet legally vindicated? It wasn't until 2015 that Italy's Supreme Court finally declared me factually innocent of murder. In Ian's case, his conviction was vacated and he walked free.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
But all that meant was that there wasn't sufficient evidence to prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. He was not yet declared factually innocent. And in the meantime, imagine having to explain the 20-plus year gap in your job history or the results of your background check.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
I still get panicky going through background checks today or when going through customs while traveling internationally because there is often no box to check that says convicted of a crime but actually innocent. You always have to explain. So you can imagine how much getting that legal vindication matters for someone like Ian.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
things could be so much worse. Thankfully, prosecutors are not seeking to retry Ian for this same crime. But a hearing to declare him factually innocent would take time. And until then, he remains merely not guilty. For Sean, since he took a plea deal, he's still considered guilty in the eyes of the law. And in October of 2023, it's Sean's turn before the magistrate.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
A mailbox or a key can take on magical significance. A crowd waiting for a bus can become terrifyingly claustrophobic.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
Attorney Keith Shigatomi takes the floor to dive into the case, explaining that Sean made the difficult decision to plead guilty to avoid a possible lifetime in prison despite evidence of his innocence. Now, Sean is seeking to withdraw his plea and clear his name. A modern jury would likely acquit him based on the evidence presented.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
Having been convicted in 2000, Ian was sentenced to life behind bars at the start of the new millennium, just a year before the first iPod was released, and nearly a decade before social media platforms like MySpace, Facebook, YouTube, and Twitter transformed the way we communicate. Even in 2011, when I was acquitted, I was baffled by touchscreens.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
Judge Kubota isn't blind to the looming risk of a gross miscarriage of justice in Sean's conviction, something he refers to as manifest injustice. He emphasizes the importance of a thorough and fair examination of all available evidence that brings true justice to light. And so officially, on October 23rd, 2023, Sean's conviction is reversed. Now, like his brother, he is officially not guilty.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
But until they can both be declared factually innocent, that cloud of suspicion will remain. On their way out of the courtroom, Sean and Ian meet with the media.