Adam Howard

That's the part you want to keep quiet if you can, James. That influence. Sorry, yeah.

That's the part you want to keep quiet if you can, James. That influence. Sorry, yeah.

western musical Bach harmony, that kind of thing.

western musical Bach harmony, that kind of thing.

Of your guitar fingering.

Of your guitar fingering.

You know, I always think when I go through your sheet music and see that a wonderful song like Don't Let Me Be Lonely Tonight starts with an E minor ninth chord. and then goes to a major seventh chord. Those weren't the C, A minor, F, G progressions of pop music at the time. Did you study music? How was it that the language of music came to be the language you speak so naturally?

You know, I always think when I go through your sheet music and see that a wonderful song like Don't Let Me Be Lonely Tonight starts with an E minor ninth chord. and then goes to a major seventh chord. Those weren't the C, A minor, F, G progressions of pop music at the time. Did you study music? How was it that the language of music came to be the language you speak so naturally?

All that inner voicing of the, so now we know.

All that inner voicing of the, so now we know.

Beatles chords, Beatles beats, Brazilian chords, and Bach harmonies, and you have James Taylor too. It's just too painful to have James Taylor up here and not hear you play. Would you play a few things for us? Let's go.

Beatles chords, Beatles beats, Brazilian chords, and Bach harmonies, and you have James Taylor too. It's just too painful to have James Taylor up here and not hear you play. Would you play a few things for us? Let's go.

I have been playing, I have two children, and for the last 16 years, I've been playing You Can Close Your Eyes for them every night when they go to sleep. And they always ask me, Daddy, did you make up that song? And I say, I did, actually. But now they're here tonight, and they'll be aware that I didn't, actually. James did.

I have been playing, I have two children, and for the last 16 years, I've been playing You Can Close Your Eyes for them every night when they go to sleep. And they always ask me, Daddy, did you make up that song? And I say, I did, actually. But now they're here tonight, and they'll be aware that I didn't, actually. James did.

But I wonder if on behalf of this audience, who I know are all moving their fingers, would you teach me to play that song properly? I will, indeed, yes.

But I wonder if on behalf of this audience, who I know are all moving their fingers, would you teach me to play that song properly? I will, indeed, yes.

Is there a guitar? Could I get one?

Is there a guitar? Could I get one?

Thank you.

Thank you.

So this is, so I'll take it home tonight. Now, we're in D, which Miles Davis said was the key that belonged to you.

So this is, so I'll take it home tonight. Now, we're in D, which Miles Davis said was the key that belonged to you.

The oracle had spoken. The oracle had spoken, so that's it. And D is your key. So we start on D. The sun is short, it's sinking down.

The oracle had spoken. The oracle had spoken, so that's it. And D is your key. So we start on D. The sun is short, it's sinking down.

Hi, Kim. Hello. Good. So this is sort of like open mic night.

Hi, Kim. Hello. Good. So this is sort of like open mic night.

And the cello never did it. You sold the cello at that point and pawned it on 46 Train.

And the cello never did it. You sold the cello at that point and pawned it on 46 Train.

And you started to compose just the way kids do, teenagers do on the guitar. You just chord to chord and idea to idea. What was the first song you ever wrote that you thought was a good song?

And you started to compose just the way kids do, teenagers do on the guitar. You just chord to chord and idea to idea. What was the first song you ever wrote that you thought was a good song?

Would you please? I don't think this is ever here. James Taylor's first song. Has this been widely covered, James?

Would you please? I don't think this is ever here. James Taylor's first song. Has this been widely covered, James?

But you know, the strange thing is, James, I never heard that, it sounds like a James Taylor song. You know, I mean. Yeah, it does. You know, I mean, not the oompa part, maybe so much at the beginning, but the way that the bass line goes down and all of that. And it's on the minor. And it's on the minor, exactly, yeah. And that... Yeah, it does.

But you know, the strange thing is, James, I never heard that, it sounds like a James Taylor song. You know, I mean. Yeah, it does. You know, I mean, not the oompa part, maybe so much at the beginning, but the way that the bass line goes down and all of that. And it's on the minor. And it's on the minor, exactly, yeah. And that... Yeah, it does.

It had a certain... It hints at things you will write, if not... Everybody, I think everybody here knows that you went off to London eventually and you recorded that first record. How old were you when you did that, James?

It had a certain... It hints at things you will write, if not... Everybody, I think everybody here knows that you went off to London eventually and you recorded that first record. How old were you when you did that, James?

Well, speaking of that, one of the things that was so potent about your music when, as a very young man, people first started paying attention to it, was that it seemed to be so amazingly emotionally accessible. It seemed to sum up so many of the longings of a generation, so many people, a song like Rainy Day Man or...

Well, speaking of that, one of the things that was so potent about your music when, as a very young man, people first started paying attention to it, was that it seemed to be so amazingly emotionally accessible. It seemed to sum up so many of the longings of a generation, so many people, a song like Rainy Day Man or...

Something's Wrong, and then more famously in the next go-round and the next group of songs, Fire and Rain and those things. Was it strange and difficult to see your own experience turning into songs and then becoming these kinds of universal vehicles for other people's feelings? Very strange indeed.

Something's Wrong, and then more famously in the next go-round and the next group of songs, Fire and Rain and those things. Was it strange and difficult to see your own experience turning into songs and then becoming these kinds of universal vehicles for other people's feelings? Very strange indeed.

But it had to be, you were saying, it had to be peculiar. Yes, of course, it's true for everyone, but a writer, maybe six people, read it. When a musician genuinely develops a following, it's millions of people who see your music as their internal, not just as your journal, but as their internal diary. And that's an extraordinarily rich time.

But it had to be, you were saying, it had to be peculiar. Yes, of course, it's true for everyone, but a writer, maybe six people, read it. When a musician genuinely develops a following, it's millions of people who see your music as their internal, not just as your journal, but as their internal diary. And that's an extraordinarily rich time.

What's the first song of that body of work that you feel, a lot of it you still perform, that you feel is strong, is a finished song that you feel good about?

What's the first song of that body of work that you feel, a lot of it you still perform, that you feel is strong, is a finished song that you feel good about?

You still do material from that period, and I know you've talked about it a lot. But one of the things that interests me, if you don't mind, just to fast forward a little bit, as a listener of yours, as a follower of yours, one of the things that seemed to me to be true, and I wonder if it was true, is that in the kind of mid-'70s, you were searching a bit for a sound for work.

You still do material from that period, and I know you've talked about it a lot. But one of the things that interests me, if you don't mind, just to fast forward a little bit, as a listener of yours, as a follower of yours, one of the things that seemed to me to be true, and I wonder if it was true, is that in the kind of mid-'70s, you were searching a bit for a sound for work.

James, this evening runs the risk of being an episode in the Chris Farley show. I don't know if you remember Chris Farley on Saturday Night Live, when he would have people he admired on, he would just say, do you remember when you wrote Fire and Rain? And say, that was great. And I could go through everything you've done and simply stand here and sweat and say, that was great.

James, this evening runs the risk of being an episode in the Chris Farley show. I don't know if you remember Chris Farley on Saturday Night Live, when he would have people he admired on, he would just say, do you remember when you wrote Fire and Rain? And say, that was great. And I could go through everything you've done and simply stand here and sweat and say, that was great.

And then beginning in the late 70s, you started doing a couple of things. You started doing covers for the first time. You started doing Motown covers, how sweet it is and so on. And it seemed as though there was a kind of rebirth through sort of being free to do other people's work as well as yours and sort of shedding the skin of Sweet Baby James and of that material.

And then beginning in the late 70s, you started doing a couple of things. You started doing covers for the first time. You started doing Motown covers, how sweet it is and so on. And it seemed as though there was a kind of rebirth through sort of being free to do other people's work as well as yours and sort of shedding the skin of Sweet Baby James and of that material.

Was that a fantasy or did you feel some of that?

Was that a fantasy or did you feel some of that?

You have that beautiful song, Only a Dream in Rio. Did Brazilian music open up your ears and your musical vocabulary?

You have that beautiful song, Only a Dream in Rio. Did Brazilian music open up your ears and your musical vocabulary?

But I will try at least to find out why it's all been so great. Thinking about your music, one of the things that's always sort of stunned me about it is when you first appeared, you had a distinctive way of playing the guitar, which wasn't like anybody else. It's distinctive kind of voicings. And you had an amazing harmonic language.

But I will try at least to find out why it's all been so great. Thinking about your music, one of the things that's always sort of stunned me about it is when you first appeared, you had a distinctive way of playing the guitar, which wasn't like anybody else. It's distinctive kind of voicings. And you had an amazing harmonic language.

That's a test if you're really an American.

That's a test if you're really an American.

That's the Reverend M. William Howard, Jr. He received that telegram as the Iran hostage crisis was unfolding. Reverend Howard was a prominent minister at the time, the president of the National Council of Churches. He also happens to be my father.

That's the Reverend M. William Howard, Jr. He received that telegram as the Iran hostage crisis was unfolding. Reverend Howard was a prominent minister at the time, the president of the National Council of Churches. He also happens to be my father.

So when this came across your mail and you're reading it with mom, I mean, did you even hesitate for a minute or did she raise any concerns or reservations about you going?

So when this came across your mail and you're reading it with mom, I mean, did you even hesitate for a minute or did she raise any concerns or reservations about you going?

Now, when he said this, had he given you and your colleagues any warning that he was going to do this? Did you think this is completely crazy what he's doing and dangerous?

Now, when he said this, had he given you and your colleagues any warning that he was going to do this? Did you think this is completely crazy what he's doing and dangerous?

Did you get a sense that anybody was trying to, I hate to use the word indoctrinate because that's so loaded, but trying to get you to be persuaded as to either the message of the captors or some other alternative perspective about what was going on to bring back to the United States?

Did you get a sense that anybody was trying to, I hate to use the word indoctrinate because that's so loaded, but trying to get you to be persuaded as to either the message of the captors or some other alternative perspective about what was going on to bring back to the United States?

And I'm sure he maybe would have used it for propaganda purposes.

And I'm sure he maybe would have used it for propaganda purposes.

So speaking of American television, when you came back, obviously there was quite a lot of press coverage, quite infamously in our family memories. You appeared on the Donahue show. What are your memories of that in terms of what the reception was when you came back? It was virtually every major outlet.

So speaking of American television, when you came back, obviously there was quite a lot of press coverage, quite infamously in our family memories. You appeared on the Donahue show. What are your memories of that in terms of what the reception was when you came back? It was virtually every major outlet.

During the hostage crisis, revolutionaries in Iran invaded the embassy because of America's ties to the Shah. The Shah was the country's corrupt last monarch, and he'd been propped up largely by the CIA. Now by that point, the Shah was in the United States, receiving treatment for terminal cancer. The revolutionaries had vowed to occupy the embassy until the U.S.

During the hostage crisis, revolutionaries in Iran invaded the embassy because of America's ties to the Shah. The Shah was the country's corrupt last monarch, and he'd been propped up largely by the CIA. Now by that point, the Shah was in the United States, receiving treatment for terminal cancer. The revolutionaries had vowed to occupy the embassy until the U.S.

I wonder, when you reflect back on this, what do you think about what took place and did this experience in any way change your perspective on the holiday of Christmas?

I wonder, when you reflect back on this, what do you think about what took place and did this experience in any way change your perspective on the holiday of Christmas?

That's my father, M. William Howard Jr., the former president of the National Council of Churches. He went on to be active in the anti-apartheid movement, became president of the New York Theological Seminary, and grandfather to my two adorable daughters. That's the New Yorker Radio Hour for today. Thank you for listening. David Remnick will be back next week.

That's my father, M. William Howard Jr., the former president of the National Council of Churches. He went on to be active in the anti-apartheid movement, became president of the New York Theological Seminary, and grandfather to my two adorable daughters. That's the New Yorker Radio Hour for today. Thank you for listening. David Remnick will be back next week.

sent him back, something that the United States was refusing to do.

sent him back, something that the United States was refusing to do.

We had help this week from Aaron Dalton.

We had help this week from Aaron Dalton.

Along with Fergus McIntosh and the heroic team of fact-checkers at The New Yorker. Victor Guan is our art director. And Diego Malo created many of the illustrations on our website. Fabio Bertone provides legal review.

Along with Fergus McIntosh and the heroic team of fact-checkers at The New Yorker. Victor Guan is our art director. And Diego Malo created many of the illustrations on our website. Fabio Bertone provides legal review.

Kenya Young is the Senior Vice President at New York Public Radio. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherena Endowment Fund.

Kenya Young is the Senior Vice President at New York Public Radio. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherena Endowment Fund.

They had taken more than 50 hostages, and my father got his invitation seven weeks into the crisis. Now, I wasn't even born yet. My older brother Matthew was two.

They had taken more than 50 hostages, and my father got his invitation seven weeks into the crisis. Now, I wasn't even born yet. My older brother Matthew was two.

My father and the other clergymen were asked to be there because of their reputations within their religious communities, but they were also known to be progressive-minded people, which didn't hurt. And we agreed to meet the following day.

My father and the other clergymen were asked to be there because of their reputations within their religious communities, but they were also known to be progressive-minded people, which didn't hurt. And we agreed to meet the following day.

What was his perspective on what he thought was happening here?

What was his perspective on what he thought was happening here?

I was going to ask, I mean, was that a genuine fear that you had?

I was going to ask, I mean, was that a genuine fear that you had?

I do want to touch back on Matthew because he was about...

I do want to touch back on Matthew because he was about...

what you know my daughter's age almost at that time i'm assuming he was far too young to understand any of what was happening but i mean did you explain to him that you were going away were you concerned about you know his well-being while you were in this pretty scary situation well yes of course and and i'm not recalling the exact thing that mom and i said together but

what you know my daughter's age almost at that time i'm assuming he was far too young to understand any of what was happening but i mean did you explain to him that you were going away were you concerned about you know his well-being while you were in this pretty scary situation well yes of course and and i'm not recalling the exact thing that mom and i said together but

How concerned were you about the fact that this was probably as much a PR move as it was sort of a genuine act of kindness?

How concerned were you about the fact that this was probably as much a PR move as it was sort of a genuine act of kindness?

And there was a lot of T-shirts with the Ayatollah on it. Yes, yes, yes. Mocking his name.

And there was a lot of T-shirts with the Ayatollah on it. Yes, yes, yes. Mocking his name.

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm Adam Howard, and I have a personal sort of unusual holiday story to share with you today. It starts back in 1979.

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm Adam Howard, and I have a personal sort of unusual holiday story to share with you today. It starts back in 1979.

My dad, the Reverend M. William Howard Jr., recalling his visit to the U.S. Embassy in Tehran during the Iran hostage crisis of 1979. Our story continues in a moment. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. Stick around.

My dad, the Reverend M. William Howard Jr., recalling his visit to the U.S. Embassy in Tehran during the Iran hostage crisis of 1979. Our story continues in a moment. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. Stick around.

We're hearing a story today about the Christmas of 1979, when a young pastor traveled to Tehran during the Iran hostage crisis. At the time, the diplomatic staff of this U.S. embassy had been held by revolutionaries for about seven weeks. Their captivity would ultimately last 444 days.

We're hearing a story today about the Christmas of 1979, when a young pastor traveled to Tehran during the Iran hostage crisis. At the time, the diplomatic staff of this U.S. embassy had been held by revolutionaries for about seven weeks. Their captivity would ultimately last 444 days.

My father, Reverend M. William Howard, Jr., received an invitation to Iran by telegram, along with another Protestant minister and the Catholic bishop of Detroit. That was December 22nd. Just two days later, Christmas Eve, the three clergymen were ushered into the embassy to meet the hostages.

My father, Reverend M. William Howard, Jr., received an invitation to Iran by telegram, along with another Protestant minister and the Catholic bishop of Detroit. That was December 22nd. Just two days later, Christmas Eve, the three clergymen were ushered into the embassy to meet the hostages.

How did they take that?

How did they take that?

Yes, sir.

Yes, sir.

For more episodes of The Divided Dial, you can follow the podcast on the media. And this is the New Yorker Radio Hour. Thanks for joining us.

For more episodes of The Divided Dial, you can follow the podcast on the media. And this is the New Yorker Radio Hour. Thanks for joining us.

Hi, I'm Adam Howard, a senior producer for the New Yorker Radio Hour, and we wanted to share something special with you on the podcast this week. This comes from our friends at On the Media, and it's an episode from the second season of their series, The Divided Dial. Season one was all about the rightward shift of talk radio, and it won a Peabody Award.

Hi, I'm Adam Howard, a senior producer for the New Yorker Radio Hour, and we wanted to share something special with you on the podcast this week. This comes from our friends at On the Media, and it's an episode from the second season of their series, The Divided Dial. Season one was all about the rightward shift of talk radio, and it won a Peabody Award.

In season two, reporter and host Katie Thornton travels to a lesser known end of the radio spectrum. Here's Katie Thornton reporting for On the Media.

In season two, reporter and host Katie Thornton travels to a lesser known end of the radio spectrum. Here's Katie Thornton reporting for On the Media.

So I think initially the mandate was to just go in and fix healthcare.gov because that was when it was created. And there was this kind of notion that USDS was digital firefighters, or you'll sometimes hear people say like digital SWAT team. The idea being that if a project was in trouble, if there was some kind of thing that needed immediate attention from healthcare,

So I think initially the mandate was to just go in and fix healthcare.gov because that was when it was created. And there was this kind of notion that USDS was digital firefighters, or you'll sometimes hear people say like digital SWAT team. The idea being that if a project was in trouble, if there was some kind of thing that needed immediate attention from healthcare,

people with a lot of experience in Silicon Valley or in the world of IT outside of government. They could parachute in, work on solving those immediate problems, getting the project back on track. And so like VA, for example, is one of my favorites. When USDS kind of initially started working with them, there was some real challenges with veterans getting the benefits that they're entitled to.

people with a lot of experience in Silicon Valley or in the world of IT outside of government. They could parachute in, work on solving those immediate problems, getting the project back on track. And so like VA, for example, is one of my favorites. When USDS kind of initially started working with them, there was some real challenges with veterans getting the benefits that they're entitled to.

And USDS did a really good job of documenting the challenges that veterans were experiencing and getting some real change to happen within the VA itself. So I think that that was the direction that USDS was heading when Doge arrived.

And USDS did a really good job of documenting the challenges that veterans were experiencing and getting some real change to happen within the VA itself. So I think that that was the direction that USDS was heading when Doge arrived.

The folks who are working for the Doge side of USDS are— They called all of the original or existing USDSers into meetings. And they were supposed to be like 15-minute long meetings. And they felt a little bit like an interrogation for the USDS folks, where they were being asked to talk about what work they were doing, why was it important, was it mission critical.

The folks who are working for the Doge side of USDS are— They called all of the original or existing USDSers into meetings. And they were supposed to be like 15-minute long meetings. And they felt a little bit like an interrogation for the USDS folks, where they were being asked to talk about what work they were doing, why was it important, was it mission critical.

But the real challenge was that the Doge folks who came in did not identify themselves. They didn't explain who they were. They often were wearing—if the meetings were even in person, and some of them were not— the Doge folks were wearing White House visitor badges, but were saying things and acting as if they were the supervisors for USDS folks.

But the real challenge was that the Doge folks who came in did not identify themselves. They didn't explain who they were. They often were wearing—if the meetings were even in person, and some of them were not— the Doge folks were wearing White House visitor badges, but were saying things and acting as if they were the supervisors for USDS folks.

And it felt very confrontational, and it felt very kind of ugly. And The people who work at USDS take great pride in the work that they've done. But it's also really hard to condense something that you've done into 15 minutes or into a few sound bites. Since the Doge folks weren't interested in learning about that complexity. They weren't interested in getting into the details.

And it felt very confrontational, and it felt very kind of ugly. And The people who work at USDS take great pride in the work that they've done. But it's also really hard to condense something that you've done into 15 minutes or into a few sound bites. Since the Doge folks weren't interested in learning about that complexity. They weren't interested in getting into the details.

They just wanted to have some snappy two or five bullet explanation of this is what I've done in the last couple of weeks. And that's not how USDS has ever operated. We've often said the most good for the most people who need it the most. And when you have that mentality, that sometimes means that you're navigating through multiple different ways to accomplish things.

They just wanted to have some snappy two or five bullet explanation of this is what I've done in the last couple of weeks. And that's not how USDS has ever operated. We've often said the most good for the most people who need it the most. And when you have that mentality, that sometimes means that you're navigating through multiple different ways to accomplish things.

But it doesn't sound good as a bullet point.

But it doesn't sound good as a bullet point.

I don't think it's done. I think that it's going to come in waves. There is still talk of a reduction in force, which is sometimes referred to as a rift. So there was talk about executing a RIF at GSA and firing 90% of the people who work there. There's talk about doing the same thing at SSA and firing 50% of the people who work there. So I think that... That's the Social Security Administration.

I don't think it's done. I think that it's going to come in waves. There is still talk of a reduction in force, which is sometimes referred to as a rift. So there was talk about executing a RIF at GSA and firing 90% of the people who work there. There's talk about doing the same thing at SSA and firing 50% of the people who work there. So I think that... That's the Social Security Administration.

Yes, yes. I think that people at these agencies still believe there's a strong chance that they are going to be fired. And so to kind of go back to the question of should people stay put, I don't know. I think that people... really are afraid.

Yes, yes. I think that people at these agencies still believe there's a strong chance that they are going to be fired. And so to kind of go back to the question of should people stay put, I don't know. I think that people... really are afraid.

I think that people are fearful that any day that they log in, there's going to be an email that says, like, today is the day that your agency, your office, your small team has been swept up in a reduction in force, and you no longer have a job here. And I have heard it happen firsthand to people at agencies. Yeah. Sometimes they come in overnight.

I think that people are fearful that any day that they log in, there's going to be an email that says, like, today is the day that your agency, your office, your small team has been swept up in a reduction in force, and you no longer have a job here. And I have heard it happen firsthand to people at agencies. Yeah. Sometimes they come in overnight.

Sometimes they come in first thing in the morning. There's no rhyme or reason. And in many cases, managers don't even know that it's going to happen. They're just learning at the same time as their employees that their whole entire team is being shuttered.

Sometimes they come in first thing in the morning. There's no rhyme or reason. And in many cases, managers don't even know that it's going to happen. They're just learning at the same time as their employees that their whole entire team is being shuttered.

Sure. At this point, I think anything is plausible. There are many systems within not just Social Security, but Medicaid, Medicare, and they are... designed and maintained by dedicated, serious, thoughtful professionals.

Sure. At this point, I think anything is plausible. There are many systems within not just Social Security, but Medicaid, Medicare, and they are... designed and maintained by dedicated, serious, thoughtful professionals.

But if you are going in and you're just turning things off or you're changing code or even changing data without understanding what is going to happen in the system, then you could very well disrupt the ability for those systems to operate and function. Yeah. Medicare and Medicaid, which we refer to as CMS.

But if you are going in and you're just turning things off or you're changing code or even changing data without understanding what is going to happen in the system, then you could very well disrupt the ability for those systems to operate and function. Yeah. Medicare and Medicaid, which we refer to as CMS.

If you look at the CMS systems, if those systems go down for a day, you're already talking about the chance for a recession. So we don't take this kind of stuff lightly, and we never have.

If you look at the CMS systems, if those systems go down for a day, you're already talking about the chance for a recession. So we don't take this kind of stuff lightly, and we never have.

I think that that's probably going to happen. But I think in a lot of cases, both the beauty and the tragedy is that the work the government does is largely invisible. You don't always know that it is USDA inspectors who are working in the slaughterhouses, who are making sure that work is being done in a safe and sanitary fashion. These people are oftentimes highly educated.

I think that that's probably going to happen. But I think in a lot of cases, both the beauty and the tragedy is that the work the government does is largely invisible. You don't always know that it is USDA inspectors who are working in the slaughterhouses, who are making sure that work is being done in a safe and sanitary fashion. These people are oftentimes highly educated.

They have doctorates in veterinary medicine. If they went into the private sector, they could probably be earning two or three times more. what they get working for USDA, for example, but they give a damn about making sure that food is safe. And so if that goes away, that's not immediately visible to people.

They have doctorates in veterinary medicine. If they went into the private sector, they could probably be earning two or three times more. what they get working for USDA, for example, but they give a damn about making sure that food is safe. And so if that goes away, that's not immediately visible to people.

And they don't necessarily know that these people have lost their jobs or that food is going to be less safe until people get hurt or worse. And so we want to make sure that people start to understand what the cuts in these programs actually means.

And they don't necessarily know that these people have lost their jobs or that food is going to be less safe until people get hurt or worse. And so we want to make sure that people start to understand what the cuts in these programs actually means.

Sure.

Sure.

Yeah, that's not the right question.

Yeah, that's not the right question.

Music

Music

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm Adam Howard, and we have a special treat for you this week, an episode on movie musicals from our friends at Critics At Large. That's the New Yorker's weekly culture podcast. Please enjoy.

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm Adam Howard, and we have a special treat for you this week, an episode on movie musicals from our friends at Critics At Large. That's the New Yorker's weekly culture podcast. Please enjoy.

Yeah. This past year, you mentioned the variety of the work you do. And you were in one of the biggest blockbuster type movies, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice. And then you've been in sort of smaller, more intimate movies I've seen. You know, Saturday Night comes to mind. What do you think about the state of the theatrical moviegoing experience right now?

Yeah. This past year, you mentioned the variety of the work you do. And you were in one of the biggest blockbuster type movies, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice. And then you've been in sort of smaller, more intimate movies I've seen. You know, Saturday Night comes to mind. What do you think about the state of the theatrical moviegoing experience right now?

There's a lot of concern, obviously, post-COVID and with streaming kind of taking over. How do you feel about it?

There's a lot of concern, obviously, post-COVID and with streaming kind of taking over. How do you feel about it?

On that upbeat note. Upbeat note. Sorry. Even doing things like this, like promoting this movie, doing interviews like these, I'm sure that's changed substantially since you got started in the business, just trying to raise awareness about a film. Can you speak to that and what that's been like for you?

On that upbeat note. Upbeat note. Sorry. Even doing things like this, like promoting this movie, doing interviews like these, I'm sure that's changed substantially since you got started in the business, just trying to raise awareness about a film. Can you speak to that and what that's been like for you?

The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago, the Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X. You don't have those little Swiss guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough.

The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago, the Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X. You don't have those little Swiss guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough.

Thank you so much, Willem, for doing this. I really appreciate it. It's been a thrill to talk to you. Okay.

Thank you so much, Willem, for doing this. I really appreciate it. It's been a thrill to talk to you. Okay.

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much.

Actor Willem Dafoe. His latest film, Nosferatu, improbably opens on Christmas Day. If you're going to see it, you might want to read the profile of director Robert Eggers, one of the most interesting young filmmakers in Hollywood. You can find it at newyorker.com. That's the New Yorker Radio Hour for today. Thank you for listening. David Remnick will be back next week.

Actor Willem Dafoe. His latest film, Nosferatu, improbably opens on Christmas Day. If you're going to see it, you might want to read the profile of director Robert Eggers, one of the most interesting young filmmakers in Hollywood. You can find it at newyorker.com. That's the New Yorker Radio Hour for today. Thank you for listening. David Remnick will be back next week.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Arts, with additional music by Louis Mitchell.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Arts, with additional music by Louis Mitchell.

This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer, with guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, and Alejandra Deckett.

This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer, with guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, and Alejandra Deckett.

We had help this week from Aaron Dalton.

We had help this week from Aaron Dalton.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherena Endowment Fund.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherena Endowment Fund.

I spoke to Willem Dafoe about his acting philosophy and his work with the visionary director Robert Eggers. I should start by telling you I just recently showed my three-year-old fantastic Mr. Fox, and your performance left quite an impression on her. As the rat? Yeah, the rat.

I spoke to Willem Dafoe about his acting philosophy and his work with the visionary director Robert Eggers. I should start by telling you I just recently showed my three-year-old fantastic Mr. Fox, and your performance left quite an impression on her. As the rat? Yeah, the rat.

She was like, why is he carrying a knife? It's one of those three-year-old questions that I'm like, there's really no good answer to that. He's just a little menacing. But I'm curious, in your experience, do you find that people have a hard time disassociating you from the roles that you play?

She was like, why is he carrying a knife? It's one of those three-year-old questions that I'm like, there's really no good answer to that. He's just a little menacing. But I'm curious, in your experience, do you find that people have a hard time disassociating you from the roles that you play?

You have one of the most, I think, enviable track records in terms of working with directors. You've worked with David Lynch, Martin Scorsese, Spike Lee, Catherine Bigelow, Wes Anderson. I can go on and on and on. Robert Eggers, this is now your third collaboration with him.

You have one of the most, I think, enviable track records in terms of working with directors. You've worked with David Lynch, Martin Scorsese, Spike Lee, Catherine Bigelow, Wes Anderson. I can go on and on and on. Robert Eggers, this is now your third collaboration with him.

I wonder if you could speak about what's unique and special about your relationship with really filmmakers in general, like how you approach working with directors, but also how does Robert Eggers sort of fit in the pantheon of people you've worked with?

I wonder if you could speak about what's unique and special about your relationship with really filmmakers in general, like how you approach working with directors, but also how does Robert Eggers sort of fit in the pantheon of people you've worked with?

In Nosferatu, you play Professor von Franz, who's sort of like the Van Helsing type figure. This is a very iconic vampire hunter character. We've seen different iterations of this type of character. What was your kind of approach to making this character your own and trying to make it fresh for you? I...

In Nosferatu, you play Professor von Franz, who's sort of like the Van Helsing type figure. This is a very iconic vampire hunter character. We've seen different iterations of this type of character. What was your kind of approach to making this character your own and trying to make it fresh for you? I...

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

Some of the beats of the story may be familiar, which might be some of the fun of the film. I'm wondering what your thoughts are on why revisit this material now.

Some of the beats of the story may be familiar, which might be some of the fun of the film. I'm wondering what your thoughts are on why revisit this material now.

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm Adam Howard. I'm a producer on the show, and I'm filling in for David Remnick this week. Willem Dafoe is one of the most versatile actors working in Hollywood. He's played everything from Jesus Christ to the Green Goblin.

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm Adam Howard. I'm a producer on the show, and I'm filling in for David Remnick this week. Willem Dafoe is one of the most versatile actors working in Hollywood. He's played everything from Jesus Christ to the Green Goblin.

He also has one of the most distinctive faces and voices in movies, which has been deployed to great effect in blockbusters and smaller indie darlings. Dafoe's most recent project is the highly anticipated vampire film Nosferatu, It's his third movie with the director Robert Eggers, who's known for his ambitious and meticulously researched genre movies, like The Witch and The Northman.

He also has one of the most distinctive faces and voices in movies, which has been deployed to great effect in blockbusters and smaller indie darlings. Dafoe's most recent project is the highly anticipated vampire film Nosferatu, It's his third movie with the director Robert Eggers, who's known for his ambitious and meticulously researched genre movies, like The Witch and The Northman.

That was Lily Rose Depp in Nosferatu, which opens on Christmas Day. I'll continue my conversation with Willem Dafoe in a moment.

That was Lily Rose Depp in Nosferatu, which opens on Christmas Day. I'll continue my conversation with Willem Dafoe in a moment.

And wound up killing 20, 30,000 people or so before it was over with.

And wound up killing 20, 30,000 people or so before it was over with.

Yeah, that's not the right question.

Yeah, that's not the right question.

Everybody. Ha.

Everybody. Ha.

You are so prolific. I mean, I think last year you were in seven films alone. It seems like you're, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're ramping up lately instead of slowing down. Is there a reason for that? Or you're just finding more projects that excite you?

You are so prolific. I mean, I think last year you were in seven films alone. It seems like you're, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're ramping up lately instead of slowing down. Is there a reason for that? Or you're just finding more projects that excite you?

In Nosferatu, Willem Dafoe plays the vampire hunter. So he's a good guy, but with a shadowy disposition.

In Nosferatu, Willem Dafoe plays the vampire hunter. So he's a good guy, but with a shadowy disposition.

And was it the cuts to the VA as part of Doge or...

And was it the cuts to the VA as part of Doge or...

You mentioned being part of protests during the first Trump administration. From your perspective, are the vibes and the sort of atmosphere at these protests different in any way than they were in the first term?

You mentioned being part of protests during the first Trump administration. From your perspective, are the vibes and the sort of atmosphere at these protests different in any way than they were in the first term?

What do you think is motivating these people who are getting on the streets for the first time?

What do you think is motivating these people who are getting on the streets for the first time?

I'm sure you've seen the reports about Tesla stock taking a hit. The sales apparently are down 9% this year in the U.S., even though the EV market is growing. What do you make of the impact that these protests are having? Do you feel like these protests deserve some of the credit for the hit that Tesla's taking?

I'm sure you've seen the reports about Tesla stock taking a hit. The sales apparently are down 9% this year in the U.S., even though the EV market is growing. What do you make of the impact that these protests are having? Do you feel like these protests deserve some of the credit for the hit that Tesla's taking?

Right. I'm sure you've seen the same videos I have of Teslas being smashed. There's Teslas being set on fire a little bit more extreme. How worried are you about Tesla takedown being associated with more maybe violent action or vandalism, that sort of thing?

Right. I'm sure you've seen the same videos I have of Teslas being smashed. There's Teslas being set on fire a little bit more extreme. How worried are you about Tesla takedown being associated with more maybe violent action or vandalism, that sort of thing?

The president of the United States is making some pretty extreme threats to protesters, talking about domestic terrorism. Among the folks that you are doing these protests with, are there fears about reprisals coming from the government or are they basically tuning that stuff out?

The president of the United States is making some pretty extreme threats to protesters, talking about domestic terrorism. Among the folks that you are doing these protests with, are there fears about reprisals coming from the government or are they basically tuning that stuff out?

There have been at least rumors that Elon Musk might be stepping away from all of his Doge activity. We spoke about the financial impact that this has had on his business. I'm curious, where do you see this all ending in terms of Musk's role in the federal government and this Tesla takedown movement? Yeah.

There have been at least rumors that Elon Musk might be stepping away from all of his Doge activity. We spoke about the financial impact that this has had on his business. I'm curious, where do you see this all ending in terms of Musk's role in the federal government and this Tesla takedown movement? Yeah.

Patty, thank you so much for taking time to speak to me. I really appreciate it.

Patty, thank you so much for taking time to speak to me. I really appreciate it.

It's a way of thinking about the history of countries started by European colonization, in particular, Australia, the United States, and Canada, which are sort of the classic examples. And then also, by extension, Israel, which is probably the most controversial case or the one that is talked about the most, certainly in the last year or so. Why do you object to the term?

It's a way of thinking about the history of countries started by European colonization, in particular, Australia, the United States, and Canada, which are sort of the classic examples. And then also, by extension, Israel, which is probably the most controversial case or the one that is talked about the most, certainly in the last year or so. Why do you object to the term?

I think that settler colonial theory is usually studied by people who are not historians. They're looking at a historical phenomenon through a very simple lens. The lens is you're either a settler or you're indigenous.

I think that settler colonial theory is usually studied by people who are not historians. They're looking at a historical phenomenon through a very simple lens. The lens is you're either a settler or you're indigenous.

In the United States, that means anyone who's not Native American is a settler, and that has some surprising applications, including descendants of slaves can also be settlers, or very recent immigrants can be settlers.

In the United States, that means anyone who's not Native American is a settler, and that has some surprising applications, including descendants of slaves can also be settlers, or very recent immigrants can be settlers.

I think that he's exceptional in that regard. I talk about his work in the book with respect and acknowledgment that he does make those distinctions. It's very common in settler colonial discourse about Israel to say, Jews are white European colonizers and Palestinian Arabs are indigenous people.

I think that he's exceptional in that regard. I talk about his work in the book with respect and acknowledgment that he does make those distinctions. It's very common in settler colonial discourse about Israel to say, Jews are white European colonizers and Palestinian Arabs are indigenous people.

The only peaceful solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict, and I think this is something that Khalidi says in his book, The Hundred Years We're in Palestine, is one that does not involve the expulsion of either people. What I'm saying about settler colonialism is that is a zero-sum way of looking at the conflict.

The only peaceful solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict, and I think this is something that Khalidi says in his book, The Hundred Years We're in Palestine, is one that does not involve the expulsion of either people. What I'm saying about settler colonialism is that is a zero-sum way of looking at the conflict.

It says Jews are colonizers and that the goal is decolonization, which means getting rid of them. And you saw that in the immediate aftermath of the October 7th attack. Why was it that on October 7th, as soon as the news of the massacre of Israelis came, you had a lot of people on the American left saying,

It says Jews are colonizers and that the goal is decolonization, which means getting rid of them. And you saw that in the immediate aftermath of the October 7th attack. Why was it that on October 7th, as soon as the news of the massacre of Israelis came, you had a lot of people on the American left saying,

progressive movements or on university campuses celebrating this and saying, as one person tweeted, who I quote in the book, Israelis are not civilians, they're settlers. And therefore, all Israelis are valid military targets. There's no such thing as a civilian versus a soldier.

progressive movements or on university campuses celebrating this and saying, as one person tweeted, who I quote in the book, Israelis are not civilians, they're settlers. And therefore, all Israelis are valid military targets. There's no such thing as a civilian versus a soldier.

I don't dispute that at all. Obviously, the reason why these protests exist is because of the war. The way that this idea is used when people say that Israel is a settler colonial country, they mean this country should not exist. It has no right to exist. And many of those people would say the same thing about the United States.

I don't dispute that at all. Obviously, the reason why these protests exist is because of the war. The way that this idea is used when people say that Israel is a settler colonial country, they mean this country should not exist. It has no right to exist. And many of those people would say the same thing about the United States.

But of course, the United States is not an imminent danger of destruction. There's no one who's making war on it. But there are countries and groups that have been making war on Israel since it was created. It's not a matter of do I sympathize with victims. It's really a recipe for creating more victims on both sides. Because it says to Israelis, we will never accept the existence of your state.

But of course, the United States is not an imminent danger of destruction. There's no one who's making war on it. But there are countries and groups that have been making war on Israel since it was created. It's not a matter of do I sympathize with victims. It's really a recipe for creating more victims on both sides. Because it says to Israelis, we will never accept the existence of your state.

This is a fight to the death. And if it's a fight to the death, that means more death. The greatest evil is settler colonialism. Israel is settler colonialist. Therefore, people who fight Israel are virtuous. And it leads to some very strange political bedfellows where people who claim to be progressives are waving the flags of groups that are, you know, religious fundamentalist.

This is a fight to the death. And if it's a fight to the death, that means more death. The greatest evil is settler colonialism. Israel is settler colonialist. Therefore, people who fight Israel are virtuous. And it leads to some very strange political bedfellows where people who claim to be progressives are waving the flags of groups that are, you know, religious fundamentalist.

Khalidi shows that from the point of view of Palestinian Arabs, Zionism was a colonial enterprise. It came to their land and created a state there without their consent.

Khalidi shows that from the point of view of Palestinian Arabs, Zionism was a colonial enterprise. It came to their land and created a state there without their consent.

Right. He was often attacked at the time in the 1920s and 30s as an extreme right-winger and even a fascist by other Zionists. But I think that he was prescient about one thing. The Arabs will not welcome us here. The only way that we're going to create a Jewish country here is by fighting for it. In creating Zionism and creating a Jewish state, the Zionist movement did oppose Arab aspirations.

Right. He was often attacked at the time in the 1920s and 30s as an extreme right-winger and even a fascist by other Zionists. But I think that he was prescient about one thing. The Arabs will not welcome us here. The only way that we're going to create a Jewish country here is by fighting for it. In creating Zionism and creating a Jewish state, the Zionist movement did oppose Arab aspirations.

It opposed Arab desires for the future of that land. The reason why I think settler colonialism is not the right model for understanding this— How is that justifiable in your mind? I think it's justifiable by—well, let's say the reasons why Zionism justified it were the historic claims of the Jewish people to the land of Israel, that this was the land where Jews had originated.

It opposed Arab desires for the future of that land. The reason why I think settler colonialism is not the right model for understanding this— How is that justifiable in your mind? I think it's justifiable by—well, let's say the reasons why Zionism justified it were the historic claims of the Jewish people to the land of Israel, that this was the land where Jews had originated.

It was the land that their religion was focused on, the biblical homeland. And European anti-Semitism. Right. And the other was existential necessity. And I think that those two reasons are probably better than the reasons that 99% of states on the map were created. So if you ask, you know, why is Palestine an Arab country?

It was the land that their religion was focused on, the biblical homeland. And European anti-Semitism. Right. And the other was existential necessity. And I think that those two reasons are probably better than the reasons that 99% of states on the map were created. So if you ask, you know, why is Palestine an Arab country?

The reason is that, you know, in the 7th century, Islamic Arab armies conquered it and spread that religion across North Africa and the Middle East. Before that, it was mainly a Christian country under the Roman Empire.

The reason is that, you know, in the 7th century, Islamic Arab armies conquered it and spread that religion across North Africa and the Middle East. Before that, it was mainly a Christian country under the Roman Empire.

I think that it's recent and it is unresolved. I think that's actually one of the main reasons why settler colonialism is not a good model for thinking about this conflict. Settler colonialism involves, in the classic examples, it involves the destruction of one people by another and their replacement over a large territory, really a continent-wide territory.

I think that it's recent and it is unresolved. I think that's actually one of the main reasons why settler colonialism is not a good model for thinking about this conflict. Settler colonialism involves, in the classic examples, it involves the destruction of one people by another and their replacement over a large territory, really a continent-wide territory.

And that's not at all the history of Israel and Palestine. The history of Israel and Palestine is that now there are about equal numbers of Jews and Arabs between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, about seven and a half million of each. So the question is, what future can be created for those 15 million people that is better than the current situation, which involves constant war and occupation?

And that's not at all the history of Israel and Palestine. The history of Israel and Palestine is that now there are about equal numbers of Jews and Arabs between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, about seven and a half million of each. So the question is, what future can be created for those 15 million people that is better than the current situation, which involves constant war and occupation?

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I agree with you. And I say in the book that right now it's much easier to imagine one of the disastrous outcomes of the conflict than a better outcome, the disastrous outcome being expulsion or massacre. What I come to in the end is saying that if your goal is to undo the past, then you have guaranteed perpetual conflict.

No, I agree with you. And I say in the book that right now it's much easier to imagine one of the disastrous outcomes of the conflict than a better outcome, the disastrous outcome being expulsion or massacre. What I come to in the end is saying that if your goal is to undo the past, then you have guaranteed perpetual conflict.

The reason conflicts come to an end is when the parties to the conflict agree to stop trying to undo the past and say a peaceful future is better. We will give up what we most want in order to have peace now, right? Which in your view is? A two-state solution. I mean, I think that that's an answer that has little credibility whatsoever.

The reason conflicts come to an end is when the parties to the conflict agree to stop trying to undo the past and say a peaceful future is better. We will give up what we most want in order to have peace now, right? Which in your view is? A two-state solution. I mean, I think that that's an answer that has little credibility whatsoever.

right now because no one actually involved in the conflict is for it. It's the solution that I think is the only one that I can imagine happening in a morally supportable way. Any other solution is going to involve great violence and suffering. Including a binational state? I think a binational state would almost immediately turn into the kind of situation you have in Lebanon, in Syria, in Iraq.

right now because no one actually involved in the conflict is for it. It's the solution that I think is the only one that I can imagine happening in a morally supportable way. Any other solution is going to involve great violence and suffering. Including a binational state? I think a binational state would almost immediately turn into the kind of situation you have in Lebanon, in Syria, in Iraq.

Yugoslavia. You know, binational states don't work. The first thing that happened after the fall of communism was all the binational states in Eastern Europe broke up. Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia. You might think the Czechs and the Slovaks should be able to get along, right? But no, they want their own countries.

Yugoslavia. You know, binational states don't work. The first thing that happened after the fall of communism was all the binational states in Eastern Europe broke up. Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia. You might think the Czechs and the Slovaks should be able to get along, right? But no, they want their own countries.

I think it's very unrealistic to say these groups of people who have hated each other for such a long time and inflicted so much damage on each other when living under separate regimes are now going to live together in peace under the same regime. That's simply not a realistic option. And I think that as a Jew, it's very important for the Jewish people for there to be a Jewish state.

I think it's very unrealistic to say these groups of people who have hated each other for such a long time and inflicted so much damage on each other when living under separate regimes are now going to live together in peace under the same regime. That's simply not a realistic option. And I think that as a Jew, it's very important for the Jewish people for there to be a Jewish state.

I think it's necessary. It remains true today as it was true in the early days of Zionism. Because I think that otherwise Jews would be completely powerless. And we've seen in the 20th century what the cost of being completely powerless is. It means that when you're persecuted, you have nowhere to go. No one will take you in.

I think it's necessary. It remains true today as it was true in the early days of Zionism. Because I think that otherwise Jews would be completely powerless. And we've seen in the 20th century what the cost of being completely powerless is. It means that when you're persecuted, you have nowhere to go. No one will take you in.

I think pluralism is something that's achieved In rare occasions, it's a great blessing. When it is achieved, it's achieved in rare occasions. It doesn't look like it's in very robust health, even here in the United States.

I think pluralism is something that's achieved In rare occasions, it's a great blessing. When it is achieved, it's achieved in rare occasions. It doesn't look like it's in very robust health, even here in the United States.

And I think that for Jews, it's been such a successful home, such a welcoming home, that there is definitely a cognitive dissonance involved in saying, here, pluralism, there, stay based on religious identity or ethnic identity. And I think that that contradiction, especially for young people, is leading people to reject the idea of Zionism.

And I think that for Jews, it's been such a successful home, such a welcoming home, that there is definitely a cognitive dissonance involved in saying, here, pluralism, there, stay based on religious identity or ethnic identity. And I think that that contradiction, especially for young people, is leading people to reject the idea of Zionism.

Yes. I think that that's one of the best arguments for a two-state solution is that it's bad for – obviously bad for Palestinians but also bad for Israelis to be in the position of occupying other people and holding them down. Trevor Burrus, Jr. : Jabotinsky said that a Jewish state has to have a Jewish majority.

Yes. I think that that's one of the best arguments for a two-state solution is that it's bad for – obviously bad for Palestinians but also bad for Israelis to be in the position of occupying other people and holding them down. Trevor Burrus, Jr. : Jabotinsky said that a Jewish state has to have a Jewish majority.

And in fact, what you have now there is not a Jewish majority in the whole land, a Jewish majority only in the part that's the state of Israel.

And in fact, what you have now there is not a Jewish majority in the whole land, a Jewish majority only in the part that's the state of Israel.

: Right. So it's sort of an artificially maintained Jewish majority. But I do think that there's no other country in the world for whom their politics and their conduct of war leads to the judgment, this country should be wiped off the map. This country should not exist. It would be hard to have worse politics and worse conduct of war than Russia, right, over the last two years.

: Right. So it's sort of an artificially maintained Jewish majority. But I do think that there's no other country in the world for whom their politics and their conduct of war leads to the judgment, this country should be wiped off the map. This country should not exist. It would be hard to have worse politics and worse conduct of war than Russia, right, over the last two years.

And no one has said, this shows that Russians shouldn't have a state. This shows that Russians can't handle or shouldn't be allowed to have a Russian country. It's only the Jewish state that people say that about.

And no one has said, this shows that Russians shouldn't have a state. This shows that Russians can't handle or shouldn't be allowed to have a Russian country. It's only the Jewish state that people say that about.

And I think that it has to do with the very unique role that Jews and Judaism play in Western civilization and also the recency and precariousness of the country of Israel, that it's a country where you can imagine it not existing in a generation. I think that that would be an unacceptable price to pay.

And I think that it has to do with the very unique role that Jews and Judaism play in Western civilization and also the recency and precariousness of the country of Israel, that it's a country where you can imagine it not existing in a generation. I think that that would be an unacceptable price to pay.

Not only would it forfeit the Jewish state as it is now, it would forfeit any kind of Jewish state that might emerge in the future that one might like better. And it returns the Jews to, as I said earlier, to complete powerlessness. And I think that that is something that people today find hard to remember because they don't study the history of what Jewish powerlessness meant before 1948.

Not only would it forfeit the Jewish state as it is now, it would forfeit any kind of Jewish state that might emerge in the future that one might like better. And it returns the Jews to, as I said earlier, to complete powerlessness. And I think that that is something that people today find hard to remember because they don't study the history of what Jewish powerlessness meant before 1948.

Adam Kirsch, thank you. Thank you.

Adam Kirsch, thank you. Thank you.

It's pretty simple. It sucks.

It's pretty simple. It sucks.

They were trying to get attention. They were even trying to get sanctions. They were never trying to get refugee status. And now that they have it, that domestically is a really big problem for them.

They were trying to get attention. They were even trying to get sanctions. They were never trying to get refugee status. And now that they have it, that domestically is a really big problem for them.

Yes, sir.

For more episodes of The Divided Dial, you can follow the podcast on the media. And this is the New Yorker Radio Hour. Thanks for joining us.

Hi, I'm Adam Howard, a senior producer for the New Yorker Radio Hour, and we wanted to share something special with you on the podcast this week. This comes from our friends at On the Media, and it's an episode from the second season of their series, The Divided Dial. Season one was all about the rightward shift of talk radio, and it won a Peabody Award.

In season two, reporter and host Katie Thornton travels to a lesser known end of the radio spectrum. Here's Katie Thornton reporting for On the Media.

And was it the cuts to the VA as part of Doge or...

You mentioned being part of protests during the first Trump administration. From your perspective, are the vibes and the sort of atmosphere at these protests different in any way than they were in the first term?

What do you think is motivating these people who are getting on the streets for the first time?

I'm sure you've seen the reports about Tesla stock taking a hit. The sales apparently are down 9% this year in the U.S., even though the EV market is growing. What do you make of the impact that these protests are having? Do you feel like these protests deserve some of the credit for the hit that Tesla's taking?

Right. I'm sure you've seen the same videos I have of Teslas being smashed. There's Teslas being set on fire a little bit more extreme. How worried are you about Tesla takedown being associated with more maybe violent action or vandalism, that sort of thing?

The president of the United States is making some pretty extreme threats to protesters, talking about domestic terrorism. Among the folks that you are doing these protests with, are there fears about reprisals coming from the government or are they basically tuning that stuff out?

There have been at least rumors that Elon Musk might be stepping away from all of his Doge activity. We spoke about the financial impact that this has had on his business. I'm curious, where do you see this all ending in terms of Musk's role in the federal government and this Tesla takedown movement? Yeah.

Patty, thank you so much for taking time to speak to me. I really appreciate it.

So I think initially the mandate was to just go in and fix healthcare.gov because that was when it was created. And there was this kind of notion that USDS was digital firefighters, or you'll sometimes hear people say like digital SWAT team. The idea being that if a project was in trouble, if there was some kind of thing that needed immediate attention from healthcare,

people with a lot of experience in Silicon Valley or in the world of IT outside of government. They could parachute in, work on solving those immediate problems, getting the project back on track. And so like VA, for example, is one of my favorites. When USDS kind of initially started working with them, there was some real challenges with veterans getting the benefits that they're entitled to.

And USDS did a really good job of documenting the challenges that veterans were experiencing and getting some real change to happen within the VA itself. So I think that that was the direction that USDS was heading when Doge arrived.

The folks who are working for the Doge side of USDS are— They called all of the original or existing USDSers into meetings. And they were supposed to be like 15-minute long meetings. And they felt a little bit like an interrogation for the USDS folks, where they were being asked to talk about what work they were doing, why was it important, was it mission critical.

But the real challenge was that the Doge folks who came in did not identify themselves. They didn't explain who they were. They often were wearing—if the meetings were even in person, and some of them were not— the Doge folks were wearing White House visitor badges, but were saying things and acting as if they were the supervisors for USDS folks.

And it felt very confrontational, and it felt very kind of ugly. And The people who work at USDS take great pride in the work that they've done. But it's also really hard to condense something that you've done into 15 minutes or into a few sound bites. Since the Doge folks weren't interested in learning about that complexity. They weren't interested in getting into the details.

They just wanted to have some snappy two or five bullet explanation of this is what I've done in the last couple of weeks. And that's not how USDS has ever operated. We've often said the most good for the most people who need it the most. And when you have that mentality, that sometimes means that you're navigating through multiple different ways to accomplish things.

But it doesn't sound good as a bullet point.

I don't think it's done. I think that it's going to come in waves. There is still talk of a reduction in force, which is sometimes referred to as a rift. So there was talk about executing a RIF at GSA and firing 90% of the people who work there. There's talk about doing the same thing at SSA and firing 50% of the people who work there. So I think that... That's the Social Security Administration.

Yes, yes. I think that people at these agencies still believe there's a strong chance that they are going to be fired. And so to kind of go back to the question of should people stay put, I don't know. I think that people... really are afraid.

I think that people are fearful that any day that they log in, there's going to be an email that says, like, today is the day that your agency, your office, your small team has been swept up in a reduction in force, and you no longer have a job here. And I have heard it happen firsthand to people at agencies. Yeah. Sometimes they come in overnight.

Sometimes they come in first thing in the morning. There's no rhyme or reason. And in many cases, managers don't even know that it's going to happen. They're just learning at the same time as their employees that their whole entire team is being shuttered.

Sure. At this point, I think anything is plausible. There are many systems within not just Social Security, but Medicaid, Medicare, and they are... designed and maintained by dedicated, serious, thoughtful professionals.

But if you are going in and you're just turning things off or you're changing code or even changing data without understanding what is going to happen in the system, then you could very well disrupt the ability for those systems to operate and function. Yeah. Medicare and Medicaid, which we refer to as CMS.

If you look at the CMS systems, if those systems go down for a day, you're already talking about the chance for a recession. So we don't take this kind of stuff lightly, and we never have.

I think that that's probably going to happen. But I think in a lot of cases, both the beauty and the tragedy is that the work the government does is largely invisible. You don't always know that it is USDA inspectors who are working in the slaughterhouses, who are making sure that work is being done in a safe and sanitary fashion. These people are oftentimes highly educated.

They have doctorates in veterinary medicine. If they went into the private sector, they could probably be earning two or three times more. what they get working for USDA, for example, but they give a damn about making sure that food is safe. And so if that goes away, that's not immediately visible to people.

And they don't necessarily know that these people have lost their jobs or that food is going to be less safe until people get hurt or worse. And so we want to make sure that people start to understand what the cuts in these programs actually means.

Sure.

That's a test if you're really an American.

That's the Reverend M. William Howard, Jr. He received that telegram as the Iran hostage crisis was unfolding. Reverend Howard was a prominent minister at the time, the president of the National Council of Churches. He also happens to be my father.

So when this came across your mail and you're reading it with mom, I mean, did you even hesitate for a minute or did she raise any concerns or reservations about you going?

Now, when he said this, had he given you and your colleagues any warning that he was going to do this? Did you think this is completely crazy what he's doing and dangerous?

Did you get a sense that anybody was trying to, I hate to use the word indoctrinate because that's so loaded, but trying to get you to be persuaded as to either the message of the captors or some other alternative perspective about what was going on to bring back to the United States?

And I'm sure he maybe would have used it for propaganda purposes.

So speaking of American television, when you came back, obviously there was quite a lot of press coverage, quite infamously in our family memories. You appeared on the Donahue show. What are your memories of that in terms of what the reception was when you came back? It was virtually every major outlet.

During the hostage crisis, revolutionaries in Iran invaded the embassy because of America's ties to the Shah. The Shah was the country's corrupt last monarch, and he'd been propped up largely by the CIA. Now by that point, the Shah was in the United States, receiving treatment for terminal cancer. The revolutionaries had vowed to occupy the embassy until the U.S.

I wonder, when you reflect back on this, what do you think about what took place and did this experience in any way change your perspective on the holiday of Christmas?

That's my father, M. William Howard Jr., the former president of the National Council of Churches. He went on to be active in the anti-apartheid movement, became president of the New York Theological Seminary, and grandfather to my two adorable daughters. That's the New Yorker Radio Hour for today. Thank you for listening. David Remnick will be back next week.

sent him back, something that the United States was refusing to do.

We had help this week from Aaron Dalton.

Along with Fergus McIntosh and the heroic team of fact-checkers at The New Yorker. Victor Guan is our art director. And Diego Malo created many of the illustrations on our website. Fabio Bertone provides legal review.

Kenya Young is the Senior Vice President at New York Public Radio. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherena Endowment Fund.

They had taken more than 50 hostages, and my father got his invitation seven weeks into the crisis. Now, I wasn't even born yet. My older brother Matthew was two.

My father and the other clergymen were asked to be there because of their reputations within their religious communities, but they were also known to be progressive-minded people, which didn't hurt. And we agreed to meet the following day.

What was his perspective on what he thought was happening here?

I was going to ask, I mean, was that a genuine fear that you had?

I do want to touch back on Matthew because he was about...

what you know my daughter's age almost at that time i'm assuming he was far too young to understand any of what was happening but i mean did you explain to him that you were going away were you concerned about you know his well-being while you were in this pretty scary situation well yes of course and and i'm not recalling the exact thing that mom and i said together but

How concerned were you about the fact that this was probably as much a PR move as it was sort of a genuine act of kindness?

And there was a lot of T-shirts with the Ayatollah on it. Yes, yes, yes. Mocking his name.

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm Adam Howard, and I have a personal sort of unusual holiday story to share with you today. It starts back in 1979.

My dad, the Reverend M. William Howard Jr., recalling his visit to the U.S. Embassy in Tehran during the Iran hostage crisis of 1979. Our story continues in a moment. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. Stick around.

We're hearing a story today about the Christmas of 1979, when a young pastor traveled to Tehran during the Iran hostage crisis. At the time, the diplomatic staff of this U.S. embassy had been held by revolutionaries for about seven weeks. Their captivity would ultimately last 444 days.

My father, Reverend M. William Howard, Jr., received an invitation to Iran by telegram, along with another Protestant minister and the Catholic bishop of Detroit. That was December 22nd. Just two days later, Christmas Eve, the three clergymen were ushered into the embassy to meet the hostages.

How did they take that?

Yeah. This past year, you mentioned the variety of the work you do. And you were in one of the biggest blockbuster type movies, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice. And then you've been in sort of smaller, more intimate movies I've seen. You know, Saturday Night comes to mind. What do you think about the state of the theatrical moviegoing experience right now?

There's a lot of concern, obviously, post-COVID and with streaming kind of taking over. How do you feel about it?

On that upbeat note. Upbeat note. Sorry. Even doing things like this, like promoting this movie, doing interviews like these, I'm sure that's changed substantially since you got started in the business, just trying to raise awareness about a film. Can you speak to that and what that's been like for you?

The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago, the Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X. You don't have those little Swiss guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough.

Thank you so much, Willem, for doing this. I really appreciate it. It's been a thrill to talk to you. Okay.

Thank you so much.

Actor Willem Dafoe. His latest film, Nosferatu, improbably opens on Christmas Day. If you're going to see it, you might want to read the profile of director Robert Eggers, one of the most interesting young filmmakers in Hollywood. You can find it at newyorker.com. That's the New Yorker Radio Hour for today. Thank you for listening. David Remnick will be back next week.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tune Arts, with additional music by Louis Mitchell.

This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Sommer, with guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, Alex Barish, and Alejandra Deckett.

We had help this week from Aaron Dalton.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherena Endowment Fund.

I spoke to Willem Dafoe about his acting philosophy and his work with the visionary director Robert Eggers. I should start by telling you I just recently showed my three-year-old fantastic Mr. Fox, and your performance left quite an impression on her. As the rat? Yeah, the rat.

She was like, why is he carrying a knife? It's one of those three-year-old questions that I'm like, there's really no good answer to that. He's just a little menacing. But I'm curious, in your experience, do you find that people have a hard time disassociating you from the roles that you play?

You have one of the most, I think, enviable track records in terms of working with directors. You've worked with David Lynch, Martin Scorsese, Spike Lee, Catherine Bigelow, Wes Anderson. I can go on and on and on. Robert Eggers, this is now your third collaboration with him.

I wonder if you could speak about what's unique and special about your relationship with really filmmakers in general, like how you approach working with directors, but also how does Robert Eggers sort of fit in the pantheon of people you've worked with?

In Nosferatu, you play Professor von Franz, who's sort of like the Van Helsing type figure. This is a very iconic vampire hunter character. We've seen different iterations of this type of character. What was your kind of approach to making this character your own and trying to make it fresh for you? I...

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

Some of the beats of the story may be familiar, which might be some of the fun of the film. I'm wondering what your thoughts are on why revisit this material now.

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm Adam Howard. I'm a producer on the show, and I'm filling in for David Remnick this week. Willem Dafoe is one of the most versatile actors working in Hollywood. He's played everything from Jesus Christ to the Green Goblin.

He also has one of the most distinctive faces and voices in movies, which has been deployed to great effect in blockbusters and smaller indie darlings. Dafoe's most recent project is the highly anticipated vampire film Nosferatu, It's his third movie with the director Robert Eggers, who's known for his ambitious and meticulously researched genre movies, like The Witch and The Northman.

That was Lily Rose Depp in Nosferatu, which opens on Christmas Day. I'll continue my conversation with Willem Dafoe in a moment.

And wound up killing 20, 30,000 people or so before it was over with.

Yeah, that's not the right question.

Everybody. Ha.

You are so prolific. I mean, I think last year you were in seven films alone. It seems like you're, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're ramping up lately instead of slowing down. Is there a reason for that? Or you're just finding more projects that excite you?

In Nosferatu, Willem Dafoe plays the vampire hunter. So he's a good guy, but with a shadowy disposition.

That's the part you want to keep quiet if you can, James. That influence. Sorry, yeah.

western musical Bach harmony, that kind of thing.

Of your guitar fingering.

You know, I always think when I go through your sheet music and see that a wonderful song like Don't Let Me Be Lonely Tonight starts with an E minor ninth chord. and then goes to a major seventh chord. Those weren't the C, A minor, F, G progressions of pop music at the time. Did you study music? How was it that the language of music came to be the language you speak so naturally?

All that inner voicing of the, so now we know.

Beatles chords, Beatles beats, Brazilian chords, and Bach harmonies, and you have James Taylor too. It's just too painful to have James Taylor up here and not hear you play. Would you play a few things for us? Let's go.

I have been playing, I have two children, and for the last 16 years, I've been playing You Can Close Your Eyes for them every night when they go to sleep. And they always ask me, Daddy, did you make up that song? And I say, I did, actually. But now they're here tonight, and they'll be aware that I didn't, actually. James did.

But I wonder if on behalf of this audience, who I know are all moving their fingers, would you teach me to play that song properly? I will, indeed, yes.

Is there a guitar? Could I get one?

Thank you.

So this is, so I'll take it home tonight. Now, we're in D, which Miles Davis said was the key that belonged to you.

The oracle had spoken. The oracle had spoken, so that's it. And D is your key. So we start on D. The sun is short, it's sinking down.

Hi, Kim. Hello. Good. So this is sort of like open mic night.

And the cello never did it. You sold the cello at that point and pawned it on 46 Train.

And you started to compose just the way kids do, teenagers do on the guitar. You just chord to chord and idea to idea. What was the first song you ever wrote that you thought was a good song?

Would you please? I don't think this is ever here. James Taylor's first song. Has this been widely covered, James?

But you know, the strange thing is, James, I never heard that, it sounds like a James Taylor song. You know, I mean. Yeah, it does. You know, I mean, not the oompa part, maybe so much at the beginning, but the way that the bass line goes down and all of that. And it's on the minor. And it's on the minor, exactly, yeah. And that... Yeah, it does.

It had a certain... It hints at things you will write, if not... Everybody, I think everybody here knows that you went off to London eventually and you recorded that first record. How old were you when you did that, James?

Well, speaking of that, one of the things that was so potent about your music when, as a very young man, people first started paying attention to it, was that it seemed to be so amazingly emotionally accessible. It seemed to sum up so many of the longings of a generation, so many people, a song like Rainy Day Man or...

Something's Wrong, and then more famously in the next go-round and the next group of songs, Fire and Rain and those things. Was it strange and difficult to see your own experience turning into songs and then becoming these kinds of universal vehicles for other people's feelings? Very strange indeed.

But it had to be, you were saying, it had to be peculiar. Yes, of course, it's true for everyone, but a writer, maybe six people, read it. When a musician genuinely develops a following, it's millions of people who see your music as their internal, not just as your journal, but as their internal diary. And that's an extraordinarily rich time.

What's the first song of that body of work that you feel, a lot of it you still perform, that you feel is strong, is a finished song that you feel good about?

You still do material from that period, and I know you've talked about it a lot. But one of the things that interests me, if you don't mind, just to fast forward a little bit, as a listener of yours, as a follower of yours, one of the things that seemed to me to be true, and I wonder if it was true, is that in the kind of mid-'70s, you were searching a bit for a sound for work.

James, this evening runs the risk of being an episode in the Chris Farley show. I don't know if you remember Chris Farley on Saturday Night Live, when he would have people he admired on, he would just say, do you remember when you wrote Fire and Rain? And say, that was great. And I could go through everything you've done and simply stand here and sweat and say, that was great.

And then beginning in the late 70s, you started doing a couple of things. You started doing covers for the first time. You started doing Motown covers, how sweet it is and so on. And it seemed as though there was a kind of rebirth through sort of being free to do other people's work as well as yours and sort of shedding the skin of Sweet Baby James and of that material.

Was that a fantasy or did you feel some of that?

You have that beautiful song, Only a Dream in Rio. Did Brazilian music open up your ears and your musical vocabulary?

But I will try at least to find out why it's all been so great. Thinking about your music, one of the things that's always sort of stunned me about it is when you first appeared, you had a distinctive way of playing the guitar, which wasn't like anybody else. It's distinctive kind of voicings. And you had an amazing harmonic language.

Yeah, that's not the right question.

Music

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm Adam Howard, and we have a special treat for you this week, an episode on movie musicals from our friends at Critics At Large. That's the New Yorker's weekly culture podcast. Please enjoy.

It's a way of thinking about the history of countries started by European colonization, in particular, Australia, the United States, and Canada, which are sort of the classic examples. And then also, by extension, Israel, which is probably the most controversial case or the one that is talked about the most, certainly in the last year or so. Why do you object to the term?

I think that settler colonial theory is usually studied by people who are not historians. They're looking at a historical phenomenon through a very simple lens. The lens is you're either a settler or you're indigenous.

In the United States, that means anyone who's not Native American is a settler, and that has some surprising applications, including descendants of slaves can also be settlers, or very recent immigrants can be settlers.

I think that he's exceptional in that regard. I talk about his work in the book with respect and acknowledgment that he does make those distinctions. It's very common in settler colonial discourse about Israel to say, Jews are white European colonizers and Palestinian Arabs are indigenous people.

The only peaceful solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict, and I think this is something that Khalidi says in his book, The Hundred Years We're in Palestine, is one that does not involve the expulsion of either people. What I'm saying about settler colonialism is that is a zero-sum way of looking at the conflict.

It says Jews are colonizers and that the goal is decolonization, which means getting rid of them. And you saw that in the immediate aftermath of the October 7th attack. Why was it that on October 7th, as soon as the news of the massacre of Israelis came, you had a lot of people on the American left saying,

progressive movements or on university campuses celebrating this and saying, as one person tweeted, who I quote in the book, Israelis are not civilians, they're settlers. And therefore, all Israelis are valid military targets. There's no such thing as a civilian versus a soldier.

I don't dispute that at all. Obviously, the reason why these protests exist is because of the war. The way that this idea is used when people say that Israel is a settler colonial country, they mean this country should not exist. It has no right to exist. And many of those people would say the same thing about the United States.

But of course, the United States is not an imminent danger of destruction. There's no one who's making war on it. But there are countries and groups that have been making war on Israel since it was created. It's not a matter of do I sympathize with victims. It's really a recipe for creating more victims on both sides. Because it says to Israelis, we will never accept the existence of your state.

This is a fight to the death. And if it's a fight to the death, that means more death. The greatest evil is settler colonialism. Israel is settler colonialist. Therefore, people who fight Israel are virtuous. And it leads to some very strange political bedfellows where people who claim to be progressives are waving the flags of groups that are, you know, religious fundamentalist.

Khalidi shows that from the point of view of Palestinian Arabs, Zionism was a colonial enterprise. It came to their land and created a state there without their consent.

Right. He was often attacked at the time in the 1920s and 30s as an extreme right-winger and even a fascist by other Zionists. But I think that he was prescient about one thing. The Arabs will not welcome us here. The only way that we're going to create a Jewish country here is by fighting for it. In creating Zionism and creating a Jewish state, the Zionist movement did oppose Arab aspirations.

It opposed Arab desires for the future of that land. The reason why I think settler colonialism is not the right model for understanding this— How is that justifiable in your mind? I think it's justifiable by—well, let's say the reasons why Zionism justified it were the historic claims of the Jewish people to the land of Israel, that this was the land where Jews had originated.

It was the land that their religion was focused on, the biblical homeland. And European anti-Semitism. Right. And the other was existential necessity. And I think that those two reasons are probably better than the reasons that 99% of states on the map were created. So if you ask, you know, why is Palestine an Arab country?

The reason is that, you know, in the 7th century, Islamic Arab armies conquered it and spread that religion across North Africa and the Middle East. Before that, it was mainly a Christian country under the Roman Empire.

I think that it's recent and it is unresolved. I think that's actually one of the main reasons why settler colonialism is not a good model for thinking about this conflict. Settler colonialism involves, in the classic examples, it involves the destruction of one people by another and their replacement over a large territory, really a continent-wide territory.

And that's not at all the history of Israel and Palestine. The history of Israel and Palestine is that now there are about equal numbers of Jews and Arabs between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, about seven and a half million of each. So the question is, what future can be created for those 15 million people that is better than the current situation, which involves constant war and occupation?

Yeah.

No, I agree with you. And I say in the book that right now it's much easier to imagine one of the disastrous outcomes of the conflict than a better outcome, the disastrous outcome being expulsion or massacre. What I come to in the end is saying that if your goal is to undo the past, then you have guaranteed perpetual conflict.

The reason conflicts come to an end is when the parties to the conflict agree to stop trying to undo the past and say a peaceful future is better. We will give up what we most want in order to have peace now, right? Which in your view is? A two-state solution. I mean, I think that that's an answer that has little credibility whatsoever.

right now because no one actually involved in the conflict is for it. It's the solution that I think is the only one that I can imagine happening in a morally supportable way. Any other solution is going to involve great violence and suffering. Including a binational state? I think a binational state would almost immediately turn into the kind of situation you have in Lebanon, in Syria, in Iraq.

Yugoslavia. You know, binational states don't work. The first thing that happened after the fall of communism was all the binational states in Eastern Europe broke up. Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia. You might think the Czechs and the Slovaks should be able to get along, right? But no, they want their own countries.

I think it's very unrealistic to say these groups of people who have hated each other for such a long time and inflicted so much damage on each other when living under separate regimes are now going to live together in peace under the same regime. That's simply not a realistic option. And I think that as a Jew, it's very important for the Jewish people for there to be a Jewish state.

I think it's necessary. It remains true today as it was true in the early days of Zionism. Because I think that otherwise Jews would be completely powerless. And we've seen in the 20th century what the cost of being completely powerless is. It means that when you're persecuted, you have nowhere to go. No one will take you in.

I think pluralism is something that's achieved In rare occasions, it's a great blessing. When it is achieved, it's achieved in rare occasions. It doesn't look like it's in very robust health, even here in the United States.

And I think that for Jews, it's been such a successful home, such a welcoming home, that there is definitely a cognitive dissonance involved in saying, here, pluralism, there, stay based on religious identity or ethnic identity. And I think that that contradiction, especially for young people, is leading people to reject the idea of Zionism.

Yes. I think that that's one of the best arguments for a two-state solution is that it's bad for – obviously bad for Palestinians but also bad for Israelis to be in the position of occupying other people and holding them down. Trevor Burrus, Jr. : Jabotinsky said that a Jewish state has to have a Jewish majority.

And in fact, what you have now there is not a Jewish majority in the whole land, a Jewish majority only in the part that's the state of Israel.

: Right. So it's sort of an artificially maintained Jewish majority. But I do think that there's no other country in the world for whom their politics and their conduct of war leads to the judgment, this country should be wiped off the map. This country should not exist. It would be hard to have worse politics and worse conduct of war than Russia, right, over the last two years.

And no one has said, this shows that Russians shouldn't have a state. This shows that Russians can't handle or shouldn't be allowed to have a Russian country. It's only the Jewish state that people say that about.

And I think that it has to do with the very unique role that Jews and Judaism play in Western civilization and also the recency and precariousness of the country of Israel, that it's a country where you can imagine it not existing in a generation. I think that that would be an unacceptable price to pay.

Not only would it forfeit the Jewish state as it is now, it would forfeit any kind of Jewish state that might emerge in the future that one might like better. And it returns the Jews to, as I said earlier, to complete powerlessness. And I think that that is something that people today find hard to remember because they don't study the history of what Jewish powerlessness meant before 1948.

Adam Kirsch, thank you. Thank you.

It's pretty simple. It sucks.

They were trying to get attention. They were even trying to get sanctions. They were never trying to get refugee status. And now that they have it, that domestically is a really big problem for them.