Adam Howard
Appearances
The New Yorker Radio Hour
From “On the Media” ’s “Divided Dial”: “Fishing in the Night”
For more episodes of The Divided Dial, you can follow the podcast on the media. And this is the New Yorker Radio Hour. Thanks for joining us.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
From “On the Media” ’s “Divided Dial”: “Fishing in the Night”
Hi, I'm Adam Howard, a senior producer for the New Yorker Radio Hour, and we wanted to share something special with you on the podcast this week. This comes from our friends at On the Media, and it's an episode from the second season of their series, The Divided Dial. Season one was all about the rightward shift of talk radio, and it won a Peabody Award.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
From “On the Media” ’s “Divided Dial”: “Fishing in the Night”
In season two, reporter and host Katie Thornton travels to a lesser known end of the radio spectrum. Here's Katie Thornton reporting for On the Media.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
We the Builders: Federal Employees Stand Up to DOGE; Plus, Celebrating 100 Years: Michael Cunningham on “Brokeback Mountain”
So I think initially the mandate was to just go in and fix healthcare.gov because that was when it was created. And there was this kind of notion that USDS was digital firefighters, or you'll sometimes hear people say like digital SWAT team. The idea being that if a project was in trouble, if there was some kind of thing that needed immediate attention from healthcare,
The New Yorker Radio Hour
We the Builders: Federal Employees Stand Up to DOGE; Plus, Celebrating 100 Years: Michael Cunningham on “Brokeback Mountain”
people with a lot of experience in Silicon Valley or in the world of IT outside of government. They could parachute in, work on solving those immediate problems, getting the project back on track. And so like VA, for example, is one of my favorites. When USDS kind of initially started working with them, there was some real challenges with veterans getting the benefits that they're entitled to.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
We the Builders: Federal Employees Stand Up to DOGE; Plus, Celebrating 100 Years: Michael Cunningham on “Brokeback Mountain”
And USDS did a really good job of documenting the challenges that veterans were experiencing and getting some real change to happen within the VA itself. So I think that that was the direction that USDS was heading when Doge arrived.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
We the Builders: Federal Employees Stand Up to DOGE; Plus, Celebrating 100 Years: Michael Cunningham on “Brokeback Mountain”
The folks who are working for the Doge side of USDS are— They called all of the original or existing USDSers into meetings. And they were supposed to be like 15-minute long meetings. And they felt a little bit like an interrogation for the USDS folks, where they were being asked to talk about what work they were doing, why was it important, was it mission critical.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
We the Builders: Federal Employees Stand Up to DOGE; Plus, Celebrating 100 Years: Michael Cunningham on “Brokeback Mountain”
But the real challenge was that the Doge folks who came in did not identify themselves. They didn't explain who they were. They often were wearing—if the meetings were even in person, and some of them were not— the Doge folks were wearing White House visitor badges, but were saying things and acting as if they were the supervisors for USDS folks.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
We the Builders: Federal Employees Stand Up to DOGE; Plus, Celebrating 100 Years: Michael Cunningham on “Brokeback Mountain”
And it felt very confrontational, and it felt very kind of ugly. And The people who work at USDS take great pride in the work that they've done. But it's also really hard to condense something that you've done into 15 minutes or into a few sound bites. Since the Doge folks weren't interested in learning about that complexity. They weren't interested in getting into the details.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
We the Builders: Federal Employees Stand Up to DOGE; Plus, Celebrating 100 Years: Michael Cunningham on “Brokeback Mountain”
They just wanted to have some snappy two or five bullet explanation of this is what I've done in the last couple of weeks. And that's not how USDS has ever operated. We've often said the most good for the most people who need it the most. And when you have that mentality, that sometimes means that you're navigating through multiple different ways to accomplish things.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
We the Builders: Federal Employees Stand Up to DOGE; Plus, Celebrating 100 Years: Michael Cunningham on “Brokeback Mountain”
But it doesn't sound good as a bullet point.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
We the Builders: Federal Employees Stand Up to DOGE; Plus, Celebrating 100 Years: Michael Cunningham on “Brokeback Mountain”
I don't think it's done. I think that it's going to come in waves. There is still talk of a reduction in force, which is sometimes referred to as a rift. So there was talk about executing a RIF at GSA and firing 90% of the people who work there. There's talk about doing the same thing at SSA and firing 50% of the people who work there. So I think that... That's the Social Security Administration.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
We the Builders: Federal Employees Stand Up to DOGE; Plus, Celebrating 100 Years: Michael Cunningham on “Brokeback Mountain”
Yes, yes. I think that people at these agencies still believe there's a strong chance that they are going to be fired. And so to kind of go back to the question of should people stay put, I don't know. I think that people... really are afraid.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
We the Builders: Federal Employees Stand Up to DOGE; Plus, Celebrating 100 Years: Michael Cunningham on “Brokeback Mountain”
I think that people are fearful that any day that they log in, there's going to be an email that says, like, today is the day that your agency, your office, your small team has been swept up in a reduction in force, and you no longer have a job here. And I have heard it happen firsthand to people at agencies. Yeah. Sometimes they come in overnight.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
We the Builders: Federal Employees Stand Up to DOGE; Plus, Celebrating 100 Years: Michael Cunningham on “Brokeback Mountain”
Sometimes they come in first thing in the morning. There's no rhyme or reason. And in many cases, managers don't even know that it's going to happen. They're just learning at the same time as their employees that their whole entire team is being shuttered.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
We the Builders: Federal Employees Stand Up to DOGE; Plus, Celebrating 100 Years: Michael Cunningham on “Brokeback Mountain”
Sure. At this point, I think anything is plausible. There are many systems within not just Social Security, but Medicaid, Medicare, and they are... designed and maintained by dedicated, serious, thoughtful professionals.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
We the Builders: Federal Employees Stand Up to DOGE; Plus, Celebrating 100 Years: Michael Cunningham on “Brokeback Mountain”
But if you are going in and you're just turning things off or you're changing code or even changing data without understanding what is going to happen in the system, then you could very well disrupt the ability for those systems to operate and function. Yeah. Medicare and Medicaid, which we refer to as CMS.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
We the Builders: Federal Employees Stand Up to DOGE; Plus, Celebrating 100 Years: Michael Cunningham on “Brokeback Mountain”
If you look at the CMS systems, if those systems go down for a day, you're already talking about the chance for a recession. So we don't take this kind of stuff lightly, and we never have.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
We the Builders: Federal Employees Stand Up to DOGE; Plus, Celebrating 100 Years: Michael Cunningham on “Brokeback Mountain”
I think that that's probably going to happen. But I think in a lot of cases, both the beauty and the tragedy is that the work the government does is largely invisible. You don't always know that it is USDA inspectors who are working in the slaughterhouses, who are making sure that work is being done in a safe and sanitary fashion. These people are oftentimes highly educated.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
We the Builders: Federal Employees Stand Up to DOGE; Plus, Celebrating 100 Years: Michael Cunningham on “Brokeback Mountain”
They have doctorates in veterinary medicine. If they went into the private sector, they could probably be earning two or three times more. what they get working for USDA, for example, but they give a damn about making sure that food is safe. And so if that goes away, that's not immediately visible to people.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
We the Builders: Federal Employees Stand Up to DOGE; Plus, Celebrating 100 Years: Michael Cunningham on “Brokeback Mountain”
And they don't necessarily know that these people have lost their jobs or that food is going to be less safe until people get hurt or worse. And so we want to make sure that people start to understand what the cuts in these programs actually means.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
We the Builders: Federal Employees Stand Up to DOGE; Plus, Celebrating 100 Years: Michael Cunningham on “Brokeback Mountain”
Sure.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
How Science Fiction Led Elon Musk to DOGE
And was it the cuts to the VA as part of Doge or...
The New Yorker Radio Hour
How Science Fiction Led Elon Musk to DOGE
You mentioned being part of protests during the first Trump administration. From your perspective, are the vibes and the sort of atmosphere at these protests different in any way than they were in the first term?
The New Yorker Radio Hour
How Science Fiction Led Elon Musk to DOGE
What do you think is motivating these people who are getting on the streets for the first time?
The New Yorker Radio Hour
How Science Fiction Led Elon Musk to DOGE
I'm sure you've seen the reports about Tesla stock taking a hit. The sales apparently are down 9% this year in the U.S., even though the EV market is growing. What do you make of the impact that these protests are having? Do you feel like these protests deserve some of the credit for the hit that Tesla's taking?
The New Yorker Radio Hour
How Science Fiction Led Elon Musk to DOGE
Right. I'm sure you've seen the same videos I have of Teslas being smashed. There's Teslas being set on fire a little bit more extreme. How worried are you about Tesla takedown being associated with more maybe violent action or vandalism, that sort of thing?
The New Yorker Radio Hour
How Science Fiction Led Elon Musk to DOGE
The president of the United States is making some pretty extreme threats to protesters, talking about domestic terrorism. Among the folks that you are doing these protests with, are there fears about reprisals coming from the government or are they basically tuning that stuff out?
The New Yorker Radio Hour
How Science Fiction Led Elon Musk to DOGE
There have been at least rumors that Elon Musk might be stepping away from all of his Doge activity. We spoke about the financial impact that this has had on his business. I'm curious, where do you see this all ending in terms of Musk's role in the federal government and this Tesla takedown movement? Yeah.
The New Yorker Radio Hour
How Science Fiction Led Elon Musk to DOGE
Patty, thank you so much for taking time to speak to me. I really appreciate it.