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The Poetic Wealth of Nikki Giovanni

Sun, 15 Dec 2024

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The legendary African American poet Nikki Giovanni passed away this week at the age of 81. Since fiercely coming onto the scene during the Black Power movement of the 1960s, Giovanni established a rich and powerful literary legacy. Her work often celebrated the power of Black joy contained within the fight for civil rights by reminding readers that "Black love is Black wealth".Today on the show, we feature a conversation between Rachel Martin, host of NPR's Wild Card, and Nikki Giovanni from earlier this year.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

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00:01 - 00:34 Aisha Roscoe

I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is a Sunday Story from Up First. I always like summer best. You can eat fresh corn from Daddy's garden, and okra, and greens, and cabbage, and lots of barbecue, and buttermilk, and homemade ice cream at the church picnics. These are the words of the great African-American poet, Nikki Giovanni, from her poem, Knoxville, Tennessee.

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00:35 - 01:09 Aisha Roscoe

She died earlier this week at the age of 81. Nikki Giovanni was called many things, the poet of the Black Revolution, activist, spoken word artist, cultural icon, children's book author, professor, Christian, radiant voice of Black joy and struggle. To me, she was also an unapologetic truth teller. And some of her words and poems, I could feel them at a molecular level.

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01:10 - 01:39 Aisha Roscoe

That's how much I related to them. Giovanni grew up with an alcoholic, abusive father in a house without indoor plumbing. And while she was never afraid to explore those hardships in her poetry, she also celebrated what was beautiful about community, food, and family. Earlier this year, my colleague and host of the podcast, Wild Card, Rachel Martin, spoke to Nikki Giovanni.

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01:40 - 01:48 Aisha Roscoe

Today, we bring you this incredible conversation. Do you think about the legacy that you will leave behind?

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01:49 - 01:49 Nikki Giovanni

No.

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01:50 - 01:52 Rachel Martin

Wow, I'm surprised by that answer.

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01:53 - 02:00 Nikki Giovanni

Huh. No, because it gets you caught up in your life, and that's not what you like. Your life is not about your life. Your life is about your duty.

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02:00 - 02:21 Rachel Martin

I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wildcard, the game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest chooses questions at random from a deck of cards. Pick a card one through three. Questions about the memories, insights, and beliefs that have shaped them. My guest this week is poet Nikki Giovanni.

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02:21 - 02:29 Nikki Giovanni

When you look at the stars and then you think about the other life forms, you think, well, there is something else. I can't quit now. There is something else.

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02:31 - 02:56 Rachel Martin

There are so many words I could use to describe my guest today. Poet, revolutionary, queer icon, feminist, space enthusiast, mother and grandmother, legend. Nikki Giovanni is all those things. But she is also a woman who figured out really early that she didn't have to apologize to anyone for who she was or for what she wanted from her life.

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02:56 - 03:10 Rachel Martin

She can write poems that look directly at all the pain and hatred in the world. And she can write children's books about feeling safe and loved. She can also conjure what it will look like when humans set up shop on Mars and black women lead the way.

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03:11 - 03:27 Rachel Martin

Nikki Giovanni has just been doing it her own way all along and writing it down so the rest of us can start to see beyond ourselves and whatever hard thing we happen to be stuck in at any particular moment. Nikki Giovanni, welcome to Wildcard. I'm so glad you're here.

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03:28 - 03:29 Nikki Giovanni

Oh, thanks, Rachel. I'm glad to be here.

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03:36 - 03:36 Rachel Martin

81.

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03:37 - 04:05 Nikki Giovanni

I can't believe it. You know, I used to say all the time, you know, I really liked old age. It was a good idea. But 80 really kicked my butt. And I'm hoping that 81 is a lot better. I just got out of the hospital about a week ago. I'm just old. And I was dehydrated. And I had to go to London twice. And I like London, but flying back and forth is... I know. I could have swam.

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04:05 - 04:06 Nikki Giovanni

You know, I would have been better off.

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04:07 - 04:08 Rachel Martin

There you go.

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04:08 - 04:09 Nikki Giovanni

There you go.

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04:09 - 04:13 Rachel Martin

So are you a person who enjoys a good birthday party? Did you have one?

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04:13 - 04:28 Nikki Giovanni

Oh. I am not, and I did. No, you know, parties are work, no matter what anybody says. But we played bid whist. I have a bid whist group. I don't know what that is.

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04:28 - 04:29 Rachel Martin

That's a card game?

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04:30 - 04:33 Nikki Giovanni

It's like bridge, only for more intelligence.

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04:35 - 04:37 Rachel Martin

If you do, say so yourself.

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04:37 - 04:54 Nikki Giovanni

We're going to get letters on that one. And my dear friend, whom I love so much, Javon Jackson, came down. And Javon doesn't go anyplace without his saxophone. So he plays sax. He plays dinner sax. And so that was very nice because there was no work I didn't have to do.

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04:54 - 04:56 Rachel Martin

That sounds like a good birthday.

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04:57 - 05:04 Nikki Giovanni

Yeah, I was glad to be out of the hospital, and I was glad to be with friends. And I didn't have to get dressed. I did shower, but I didn't have to be dressed.

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05:05 - 05:17 Rachel Martin

I get it. I get it. I'm so glad you're out of the hospital. I'm glad that you're doing better. Are you a game person? What do you think about this?

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05:17 - 05:23 Nikki Giovanni

Oh, I love games. You do? Oh, sure. The Weakest Link, Jeopardy, The Wall. Okay.

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05:23 - 05:44 Rachel Martin

All right. I'm into it. So let me explain how this is going to go, okay? Okay. I've got a deck of cards in front of me, and each one has a question on it that I would love for you to answer. I'm going to hold up only three cards at a time. And then you, Nikki, are going to choose one at random to answer. Okay. There are two rules. You get one skip.

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05:45 - 06:08 Rachel Martin

If you use your skip, I will swap in another question from the deck. Okay. And rule number two, you get one flip. So you could put me on the spot and ask me to answer one of the questions before you do. Okay. And we're breaking it up into three rounds. Okay. Memories, insights, and beliefs with a few questions in each round. And because it's a game, there's a prize when you make it to the end.

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06:08 - 06:10 Rachel Martin

Ginger cookies. Ginger cookies. How did you know?

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06:11 - 06:18 Nikki Giovanni

Oh, I wish I'd made you fresh ginger cookies. I love ginger cookies. Soft kind or crispy? Soft. Soft. Always soft. Like my grandmother.

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06:20 - 06:23 Rachel Martin

It's not ginger cookies. I should just tell you right now so you can emotionally prepare.

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06:24 - 06:25 Nikki Giovanni

I'm leaving. I'll see you later. Bye.

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06:28 - 06:40 Rachel Martin

Okay, so this is the memories round. Three cards to choose from. One, two, or three? Of course, two. Of course, two. You said that like everybody knows it's two. It's the best number.

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06:40 - 06:44 Nikki Giovanni

Well, I'm a baby sister, so I'm number two. I get it.

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06:44 - 06:51 Rachel Martin

Okay. Were you ever obsessed with a particular cosmic question as a kid?

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06:53 - 07:17 Nikki Giovanni

Yes, I wanted to know why Mars was red. And my obsession was that there was a war on Mars and that they had developed atomic energy so that Mars burned itself up. And as I lay in bed for most of my life, actually, to look out the window, I have seen Mars, which is why I talk about it a lot.

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07:17 - 07:24 Nikki Giovanni

And I would like to go to Mars because I think that as a black woman, my sisters and I could build a community.

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07:25 - 07:43 Rachel Martin

And I love that you have planted that idea in our collective consciousness and have written a lot about it. When did Mars come into your head? Do you remember? Like as a kid? I didn't think about Mars as a kid. How did it capture your imagination?

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07:44 - 08:03 Nikki Giovanni

I'm a baby sister. I shared a bedroom with my big sister. She wanted the bed by the walls. I don't know why, but that gave me the bed by the window. And so I would look out the window and watch the stars. And the stars haven't changed. So you have to ask yourself, what are they telling us? What am I learning?

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08:04 - 08:24 Rachel Martin

Did fixing your gaze upward make you feel safer? I mean, you had a tough home life. You've talked and written a lot about that. Did thinking about the planets, the cosmos, the universe, Did that help you escape whatever was going on at home?

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08:25 - 08:54 Nikki Giovanni

Well, my parents had what I would call, in nice words, troubled marriage. And what space let me know is that this could not be the end. And thank God I did have a grandmother. And I went ultimately to live with my grandmother. But when you start to look at the stars and then you think about the other lifeforms, And you think, well, there is something else that I can't quit now.

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08:54 - 08:56 Nikki Giovanni

There is something else.

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08:59 - 09:20 Rachel Martin

Three new cards. Okay. Same drill. You pick one, two, or three. I guess I should take one. Okay. Let's do one. What's something you thought was normal about your childhood? that you now realize was unusual?

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09:24 - 09:52 Nikki Giovanni

Probably the most unusual thing about my childhood was that I recognized that my parents' marriage was not my business. Because it was unpleasant. Saturday night at 11 o'clock, I was listening to my father beat my mother. So that's unpleasant. But you also recognize it has nothing to do with you. It was none of my business. And I didn't believe Ozzie and Harriet or Father Knows Best.

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09:52 - 09:56 Nikki Giovanni

I didn't believe any of that. I still don't think that there's such a thing as a happy family.

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09:57 - 10:02 Rachel Martin

Because that was your norm. So you assumed that all families to some degree were broken in that way.

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10:02 - 10:18 Nikki Giovanni

Yeah, they're crazy. And so the best thing you can do, sometimes you need to walk away. You need to find friends and get rid of the family. Because the family drives you crazy. Just because you happen to be born. It doesn't make them kin to you. You make your own families, is what I guess I'm saying.

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10:19 - 10:19 Rachel Martin

Yeah.

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10:20 - 10:30 Nikki Giovanni

I recommend dogs. But they're faithful, they're intelligent, and they always love you. You walk into the house, the dog is always happy to see you.

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10:35 - 10:43 Rachel Martin

We've got to take a quick break, but when we come back, I ask Nikki if she is afraid of anything. And her answer may surprise you.

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12:27 - 12:51 Rachel Martin

Now, we move into the second round. Oh. The insights round. This is stuff you're learning now, stuff you're working through now. Okay, three new cards. One, two, or three. Remember, you have a skip and a flip. You don't have to use them. One, two, or three. Well, let's go for two again. Okay. What emotion do you understand better than all the others?

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12:52 - 12:52 Nikki Giovanni

Patience.

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12:54 - 12:54 Rachel Martin

Oh.

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12:54 - 13:18 Nikki Giovanni

I'm incredibly patient. It takes a lot to really push me. Okay. Where does that come from? Well, I don't know. I'm the baby sister of two. So that teaches you, one, you're always watching your big sister because they're always so wonderful. They're prettier. They're more intelligent. Everything. In your mind, yes. And you want to say, well, one day I'll grow up or whatever.

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13:18 - 13:28 Nikki Giovanni

But most of my friends are older. I have very few friends who are older. My age, I'm 81. Right.

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13:28 - 13:33 Rachel Martin

It's a long life already, Nikki, 81. And most of your friends are older than that. Some good longevity.

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13:34 - 13:53 Nikki Giovanni

Well, I'm hoping that Aunt Sarah, who is my mother's great aunt, and nobody liked Sarah, by the way. She was a despicable person. But she lived to be 100. So I do want that dream that lets you live to be 100. I think it'd be interesting to see what's happening at 100.

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13:54 - 14:20 Rachel Martin

My kids asked me that recently, if I wanted to, you know, not just to 100, but like, would I want to live forever? And then, you know, that's an interesting question to talk about with kids and how having a finite end to life sometimes creates... because you think things are going to end, you know. But I said I would do it with some caveats. I just want my health.

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14:20 - 14:25 Rachel Martin

I just want my body to still work. I don't want things falling apart on me.

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14:26 - 14:56 Nikki Giovanni

Things are going to fall apart. And so that's, again, one of the things that you can hear in my breathing. It's because of the pneumonia. Okay. Oh, and that'll go away. This will get well. But I'm not afraid of, you know, being blind. I have a friend who's losing her sight and it makes her very uncomfortable. I think it's what an opportunity to now see the world in a different way. I mean,

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14:57 - 15:20 Nikki Giovanni

Look at Ray Charles or Stevie Wonder. So you say, well, they couldn't see, but look at what they created. So obviously they saw something. And I'm not afraid. As I said, 80 kicked my butt. I mean, if it could be wrong with me, it was wrong with me. And I was thinking, okay, well, you know, I had cancer. I had lung cancer. And I had breast cancer.

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15:20 - 15:38 Nikki Giovanni

And I said, whatever happens, I don't want to read. I don't want to be sitting. Well, I'll be sitting in hell because I don't think I'm going to heaven. But I don't want to be sitting in hell. And they said she fought cancer for 20 years. I'm not fighting any disease. I'm learning to live with it. And I want the disease to live with me.

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15:39 - 15:54 Nikki Giovanni

So every morning that I wake up, me and cancer, we're in good shape. And I said, well, let's take a shower. Go about our day. Let's do our life. Yeah. And one day we won't. And then that means that I'll be transitioned. I'll be in another place.

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15:55 - 16:10 Nikki Giovanni

And that's what, you know, I'm talking about my grandmother, but that's what I think about grandmother, about Sister Althea, who was my eighth grade teacher, and I loved her so much. I don't think they're not dead because they will never be forgotten for me.

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16:11 - 16:22 Nikki Giovanni

And I find myself, if I'm not careful, and sometimes even if I am talking to them or they're talking to me, you know, you're never alone when you have somebody like that around you.

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16:22 - 16:25 Rachel Martin

Yeah. Are you afraid of anything?

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16:26 - 16:33 Nikki Giovanni

Well, I'm very cautious around ostrich when I was on, you know. Nikki, what are you talking about?

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16:33 - 16:34 Rachel Martin

You're afraid of ostriches?

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16:35 - 16:52 Nikki Giovanni

Well, yeah. You ever been on safari? They are mean. No, they are mean, and that kick will kill you. Ask a lion. If you had to put a lion against an ostrich, the lion is gone. That's why you don't see lions.

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16:56 - 16:56 Aisha Roscoe

Oh.

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16:57 - 17:01 Rachel Martin

No, I like it. I like it. I mean, it's real. That is your fear, the ostrich.

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17:02 - 17:28 Nikki Giovanni

Yeah, you have to be very careful around them. I'm not afraid of lions because lions are an intelligent being that unless you're threatening them, they're not going to bother you. But the only ostriches I've had in relation, you know, it's been unpleasant. And I'm lucky that they didn't get to me or they would have killed Thomas and my son and I on safari. You have to be careful around ostriches.

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17:28 - 17:29 Nikki Giovanni

People need to know that.

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17:45 - 17:46 Rachel Martin

Okay.

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17:46 - 17:47 Nikki Giovanni

Let's do three.

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17:47 - 17:53 Rachel Martin

Three. In what ways do you choose to find joy?

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17:55 - 18:24 Nikki Giovanni

Cooking. Cooking. I love to cook. Do you? I really do. I cooked with my grandmother. And my mother could cook, but not as well as my grandmother. And I didn't cook with Mommy. I watched Mommy cook. But I cooked with Grandmother. And I would be the one. She used to be the one. I hope nobody's upset. But, you know, you'd go and get the chicken. We lived in Knoxville. In Tennessee, yeah.

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18:24 - 18:48 Nikki Giovanni

Yeah, you'd go get the chicken. Chicken was, unfortunately for the chicken, alive. And so Grandmother would wring its neck. And then I would be the one to have to pluck it. And I learned to pluck the chicken. But I also learned to cook chitlins. because I learned to turn the children's intestines. I learned to turn them inside out and pull the fat out. But I also learned to break string beans.

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18:49 - 18:57 Nikki Giovanni

And when you do that, you want to pull the string out. So I love every time I'm cooking something, I'm thinking about grandmother and how she did it.

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18:57 - 18:58 Rachel Martin

Oh, I love that.

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18:58 - 19:11 Nikki Giovanni

You know, it's like she's with me. It's like, you know, but I do. It always makes me happy. And I like other people's cooking sometimes. But mostly, if I have my way, I do my own.

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19:13 - 19:22 Rachel Martin

You said that sometimes you catch yourself, or maybe it's not catching yourself, just sometimes you do just talk out loud to your mom or your grandmother. Does it happen when you're cooking?

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19:24 - 19:46 Nikki Giovanni

I don't know if I'm talking out loud so much as remembering. And you go and I made some lamb chops that I have to tell you were delicious. Incredible. And I was trying to remember what it was that grandmother did. It was grandmother. And I remembered, oh, it was she put a little cinnamon. And so I put a little cinnamon and a little apple vinegar.

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19:46 - 19:46 Rachel Martin

Yes.

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19:46 - 20:06 Nikki Giovanni

Oh, God. They were so good. You know, and I didn't I don't think I said aloud to grandmother, you know, look what I've done. But, you know, it's one of those like I didn't share. I have people. You just ate it for yourself. I didn't. You didn't invite people. They should go get somebody else. If they're hungry, go to Wendy's.

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20:10 - 20:15 Rachel Martin

We've got another quick break, but when we come back, Nikki tells me about her belief system.

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20:15 - 20:20 Nikki Giovanni

Well, I am, and I almost hate to use this word because there's so many fools out there, but I am a Christian.

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21:30 - 21:42 Rachel Martin

So now this is the beliefs round. Beliefs. One, two, three. Okay, three. Three. Do you think about the legacy that you will leave behind?

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21:42 - 21:49 Rachel Martin

No. Wow, I'm surprised by that answer. No. Huh.

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21:51 - 22:01 Nikki Giovanni

No, because it gets you caught up in your life, and that's not what your life is. Your life is not about your life. Your life is about your duty. Hmm. And so, no, I don't think about it, you know.

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22:01 - 22:06 Rachel Martin

Have you seen people get too caught up in preemptively analyzing their legacy?

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22:07 - 22:36 Nikki Giovanni

Oh, I've seen a lot. I know a lot of famous people, and they're all, you know, I wonder what my stamp would look like. I'll be dead, so it doesn't matter. No, I'm serious. Someone did not say that to you. Yeah. Oh, wow. And so you just look, no, no, I'm just... glad when me and cancer wake up. And now when me and cancer and pneumonia wake up. And one day we won't. And I don't know.

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22:36 - 22:58 Nikki Giovanni

Maybe I'll be sad. Maybe not. I don't know. It's interesting. My friend Toni Morrison, whom I do and still do love so very much, and my favorite Toni Morrison, among other things, is Sula. And when Sula is dying, she says, oh, wait till I tell Nell, because Nell is her best friend. And she says, wait till I tell Nell. It doesn't hurt. Wait till I tell Nell.

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22:59 - 23:16 Rachel Martin

Let me ask this question a different way then, though. I get what you're saying, that you don't want to get wrapped up in your ego. You don't want to think about, you know, I'm so important. People are going to remember me. What are they going to write on my tombstone? What are all the great accolades they're going to give me?

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23:16 - 23:26 Rachel Martin

But are there moments when you think back on your life and allow yourself moments to feel proud?

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23:27 - 23:39 Nikki Giovanni

Oh, there are moments that I feel proud because I've worked hard. And I think the word that means, as you probably also have heard in this conversation, a lot to me is duty.

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23:39 - 23:39 Rachel Martin

Yeah.

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23:42 - 24:02 Nikki Giovanni

opening of the African American Museum in D.C., you go around and around. I certainly recommend anybody doing it. And I had forgotten because a lot of those things I don't handle and I'm not interested in. I forgot we gave permission to use my poetry and we gave permission to use my, it's not something, if you start paying attention to that, you'd be crazy.

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24:02 - 24:29 Nikki Giovanni

And when I turned to the right, there was a photograph of me. And I just automatically, it brings tears to my eyes, I automatically just turn over my shoulder to my left to say, look, Grandmother, I did my duty. And it still amazes me that I did. I mean, it's like she was there. I did my duty. And that's what matters to me.

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24:34 - 24:44 Rachel Martin

That's beautiful. Thank you. This is the last one. Okay. Last question. One, two, or three. Let's go two again.

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24:47 - 24:50 Rachel Martin

What belief helps you make sense of the world?

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24:52 - 25:28 Nikki Giovanni

Well, I am, and I almost hate to use this word because there's so many fools out there, but I am a Christian. And I think Jesus is a really interesting guy. I really... and fascinated by the way he conducted his life. And I think 90% of all black women you would run into are Christians. We believe that. He may not come. There's an expression that black women have, and I share that expression.

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25:28 - 25:44 Nikki Giovanni

He may not come when you call, but he always comes on time. So we've learned to wait on the Lord. And I think that that's the most important thing. Do you pray? Oh, no. No, none of that. No, no. So how does that— I tell them, go to church.

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25:45 - 25:50 Rachel Martin

Don't go to church. Don't pray. But there's still something about Jesus.

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25:50 - 26:16 Nikki Giovanni

He's a good guy. A Christian god who you're into. Well, he's a very interesting guy. And, of course, when he did come from the tomb— There are lots of interesting guys, Nikki, but like— No, there are not. Let's face that one. But, you know, when he came out of the tomb, he went to Mary Magdalene. So the first thing he went to was a black woman. So you have to appreciate that.

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26:16 - 26:46 Nikki Giovanni

And I think that what he said to her was, you know, I've got to go. I've got things to do. But you call me. I'll be there. But just wait on the Lord. And all of the black women I know believe that. And it made sense to me. You may as well. He'll come when you call. That's why I have patience. No question about it. You know, you wait. You want the Lord to do something.

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26:46 - 27:08 Nikki Giovanni

But I'm not asking for, you know, lottery numbers. You know, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm not asking for, you know. Do Jesus help me win the super lotto? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, none of that. Please let me get well, you know. I don't, you know, I'm worried about this cancer. I didn't ask for any of that because that's a foolish thing to ask for. What you're asking for is let me.

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27:09 - 27:36 Nikki Giovanni

Continue my life of duty with grace. And that's all. If I can gracefully do what I have to do, I'm happy. Do you think there's such a thing as heaven, Nikki? There's a heaven. And my grandmother's sitting up there. I'm going to hell because I hate my father. And I'm going to sit down and tell him why. But I'm sure grandmother and mommy will, you know, talk to Jesus or God, whoever's there.

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27:37 - 27:52 Nikki Giovanni

You know, let her come up and visit, you know. And everybody knows I like champagne, so I'm sure they'll have a glass of champagne. And we'll sit there and talk. Well, you got to go now. You've been here for two days. Do you actually think that? It doesn't matter what I actually think.

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27:52 - 27:53 Rachel Martin

It doesn't matter.

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27:53 - 27:55 Nikki Giovanni

What matters is what gets me through the next day.

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28:02 - 28:29 Rachel Martin

Well, you won the game, Nikki. So the prize, alas, is not ginger cookies. Oh. I know. It is a trip in our memory time machine. So, as your prize, you get to revisit one moment from your past that you would not change anything about. It's just a moment you'd like to linger a little longer in.

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28:29 - 28:31 Rachel Martin

What moment do you choose?

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28:37 - 28:48 Nikki Giovanni

That's not only hard, but it's personal. And so I know what I would, but it's none of your business.

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28:51 - 28:55 Rachel Martin

I want you to be in it now, though. Can you go there now in your mind?

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28:55 - 29:23 Nikki Giovanni

I go there quite a bit. You do. You don't need me to take you there. I haven't been there. Well, right now I'm getting better, but I haven't been well. And so I stay in that spot right now. And yeah, it works. My old ladies come through, you know, no matter what's going on. My old ladies are I mean, I'm in the hospital to me. I love hospitals because they're grandmothers.

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29:24 - 29:38 Nikki Giovanni

You know, and they come in the morning and they say, how's my baby doing today? But it's like all of these, not all, but a couple of old ladies that I really love. And they're right there. They say, you know, you'll be all right. Don't worry about it.

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29:41 - 29:46 Rachel Martin

Well. You don't owe me anything. You don't have to take me to your moment.

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29:46 - 29:55 Rachel Martin

But I'm glad that you can go there easily these days. Yeah. They're with me. Yeah. Yeah.

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30:02 - 30:07 Rachel Martin

Well, it was my great pleasure to get to talk with you. Thank you so much for doing this.

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30:07 - 30:14 Nikki Giovanni

Oh, thank you. I hope I didn't sound too crazy, but life is a good idea. And wait till you get to be 70. You're going to love it.

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30:15 - 30:22 Rachel Martin

Nikki Giovanni, poet, author, revolutionary, amazing human. Thank you so much for talking with me.

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30:23 - 30:23 Nikki Giovanni

Thank you.

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30:33 - 30:42 Rachel Martin

If you want to hear more from Nikki Giovanni, we've got a bonus question you can hear by signing up for Wildcard Plus. I asked her what her thoughts are on marriage.

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30:42 - 30:48 Nikki Giovanni

Well, first of all, it takes patience, of which I have a lot. And secondly, well, it's a good tax write-off, by the way.

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30:51 - 30:52 Nikki Giovanni

Well...

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30:53 - 31:12 Rachel Martin

You'll also hear Ted Danson talk about adjusting to the world of adult responsibility. And you'll hear my reflections on how those conversations affected me personally. Wildcard Plus is the best way to support our show and support public radio at the same time. Go to plus.npr.org slash wildcard to join today.

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31:15 - 31:45 Aisha Roscoe

Make sure to follow NPR's Wildcard podcast wherever you listen. This episode of Wildcard was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was fact-checked by Barclay Walsh and mastered by Robert Rodriguez. The Sunday Story team includes Andrew Mambo, Justine Yan, Jenny Schmidt, and Liana Simstrom. I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is a Sunday Story from Up First.

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31:45 - 31:51 Aisha Roscoe

We'll be back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

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