Truth in the Barrel | Devil’s Cut | In Conversation With Annie Jacobsen Amy and Denver talk to Annie Jacobsen, writer or television’s Jack Ryan series and author of “Nuclear War : A Scenario” about our status regarding nuclear proliferation, Donald Trump’s “Golden Dome” project and the overall likelihood of a nuclear winter. *This episode was recorded on April 21, 2025, and aired on May 06, 2025. About Truth in the Barrel: Amy and Denver are both military veterans, political junkies, and whiskey lovers who sit on opposite sides of the aisle but have one thing in common: they love the United States of America. Truth in the Barrel was born of Amy & Denver’s commitment to country, the Constitution, and a well-curated collection of the world’s finest bourbon. Join them weekly for deep dives into timely topics, interviews with recognizable guests, and a dose of call-in fun. Visit Our Website: www.TruthintheBarrel.com Subscribe to Truth in the Barrel: https://www.youtube.com/@TruthIntheBarrel Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0JQcSj5mwVyGDJ8DcXwlu9?si=5f2bd1d1b0c64e6f Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/truth-in-the-barrel/id1804092329 Instagram, BlueSky, Facebook, TikTok: @TruthintheBarrel
Chapter 1: Why is nuclear proliferation a pressing issue today?
Hi, everyone. Welcome to Truth in the Barrel, Devil's Cut. I'm Amy McGrath with Denver Riggleman. Today, we are talking more about nuclear weapons and nuclear war. Why? Because it is a super important issue that we need to understand a lot more about. If you take us back to the Cold War, we had two nations that built up massive arsenals of nuclear weapons that could be launched in the air.
They could be launched from the ground or from the ocean. And we had massive arsenals of bigger and bigger bombs, okay? And over time, In the 1960s, we had serious leaders in this country and in the Soviet Union that decided, hey, this isn't smart. The destructive power of these weapons is so big that a war itself would destroy all of us. So let's try to limit some of these weapons.
And that was the start of arms control. and so you might think well the cold war is over and so we don't have to deal with this stuff anymore that is not true we have actually multiple threats and a very complex world with china and russia having nuclear weapons rogue states like north korea now having nuclear weapons the potential for iran and in the current age of donald trump
We have our allies and partners now thinking they might need to get nuclear weapons. And so we have to talk about all of this stuff. So joining us today is an amazing author of a book called Nuclear War, a Scenario. Her name is Annie Jacobson, and we're going to bring her in to talk about nuclear weapons and what Americans need to know right now.
Doesn't get better than this.
And there she is. Welcome to our special guest, Annie Jacobson, author of Nuclear War, a Scenario. And I'll just start out. I'm not going to ask the first question, Annie. Denver is going to do that. But I just have to tell you, I've studied nuclear weapons for a long time. And your book was fantastic.
the best book I have ever read that could really portray the destructive power of these weapons to everyday Americans. So thank you for being on our show, Annie.
Thank you so much for having me.
And, Annie, I tell you, you know, reading the book, you brought me back. I'll tell you that because, you know, my background, United States Air Force to NSA, then I did joint special projects.
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Chapter 2: What insights does Annie Jacobsen bring about nuclear war?
which is what that is the bottom line that I get from your book. Hope is not a viable course of action. There has to be real things that happen, right? There's real issues, right? With if there's a nuclear attack, what would happen? And there's a point, there is a point of no return because there's a point that we cannot affect what happens at that time.
So try not to give you ideas for your next book. Cause now you gave me an idea. Um, is left of boom non-kinetic deterrence and how we use cyber warfare and other things like that down the road. And if that's part of, I don't even know that's part of the Golden Dome thing at this point, but I would suspect it should be.
But do you see more and more of a cyber warfare, more of a computer-based warfare effects? on nuclear weaponry and things like that and trying to stop it left a boom before things even get off the ground. And for me to say that, people need to know how difficult that is. I'm not talking about something that is not complex. We're talking about something that's awful. Just try to affect even...
One cell tower, right? But that was my background was telephony and comms. But do you see, as we're going in, I know we don't want to take all your time. Do you see non-kinetic options, right, that could stop some of this, that maybe can get in the way of some of these awful, you know, stepping stones towards a nuclear attack or, you know, something like an ICBM hitting the United States?
Mm-hmm. I'm not, I would say that's not my lane and it's, and that's not meant to dodge the question, but I will give you an alternative. Okay. The alternative, because, because my job as a author, as a journalist is, is to write a narrative, write a compelling narrative that people read. And then they say to the person, you have to read this. And then they have a conversation about it.
And then they, Others have conversations about it. So hope may not be an option inside the nuclear command and control, the same as luck is not an option. And I would say that's more of what we've been working with. But for me, just in my own lane, hope is absolutely imperative.
And so that's where I tell, and I believe in the power of the president, unfortunately, like it or not, the American president is so powerful, his EO pen. And we're seeing that now. I mean, I've been writing about presidents since Truman and I'm, and I've been writing about EOs and I've been writing about title 50 and title 10. And I know about the power of the president, but
And, you know, we we've seen this evolve over decades or I certainly haven't. So I'm not surprised that this president is demonstrating power that has always been there. And you can really have a longer conversation. We probably should about back to the church commission when Rumsfeld and Cheney were with Ford. I mean, I've written it. This is where this all. So the path.
So without digressing the power, the presidential pen is powerful. And I do believe that that is where the hopefulness lies. And I'm going to tell me briefly, tell the story, the one hopeful story about Reagan. Yeah, because I'm ready. I believe we can repeat itself. But Reagan was a hawk. He was a nuclear hawk. We all know this. We're old enough to know this. And he believed in nuclear weapons.
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