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To Catch a Thief: China’s Rise to Cyber Supremacy

Ep 9: The New Frontline

Thu, 29 May 2025

Description

Colonial Pipeline was a warning shot. Now, Chinese hackers are inside the digital guts of hundreds of Colonial equivalents across the U.S.—power, water, transportation, and more. The question isn’t if they’re in. It’s why. And what happens next. Is this digital coercion? A warning to stay out of Taiwan? Is an invasion imminent—and are we ready for the cyber fallout that could come with it? In the final episode of this series, host and former New York Times cybersecurity reporter, Nicole Perlroth, investigates the nightmare scenarios U.S. officials are gaming out behind closed doors. The battlefield is already shifting—tilting toward Beijing. And while China prepares, America’s attack surface only grows. This isn’t just a problem for Washington. The new front line runs through all of us.

Audio
Transcription

Chapter 1: What triggered the Colonial Pipeline cyber attack?

1.024 - 18.055 Reporter

Tonight, we're learning more about a cyber attack forcing the shutdown of one of the main pipelines supplying gas and diesel fuel to the East Coast. You can see hundreds of cars here, and this is just one gas station. Drivers here tell me they're waiting up to an hour. That's where the line starts. We can't even see where it ends.

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18.375 - 25.92 Reporter

The lines for gas getting longer from the Carolinas down to Florida. Panicked drivers, overwhelming gas stations.

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26.832 - 41.35 Nicole Perlroth

It's May of 2021. Jets are grounded. Up and down the eastern seaboard, lines at gas stations sneak for blocks. Panicked Americans vie to fill up garbage bags with gas.

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Chapter 2: How did the Colonial Pipeline attack affect gas prices?

41.744 - 46.428 Gas Station Attendant

I was suspected just prices would go way up. I didn't suspect that there wouldn't be any.

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46.828 - 60.619 Gas Station Owner

We put a stop to the can sales today. People were coming in and trying to buy, you know, five and ten cans worth of gasoline. They're just hoarding it. The partial shutdown of the Colonial Pipeline is causing panic buying.

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60.839 - 69.846 Consumer Product Safety Commission Representative

The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission can't believe they had to warn the public about this, but they did. They warned people about filling plastic bags with gasoline.

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70.086 - 79.873 Gas Station Attendant

The warning comes after images surfaced on social media of the trunk of a car holding bags filled with gas and video of a woman pouring gas into a plastic bag.

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80.573 - 114.496 Nicole Perlroth

Colonial Pipeline, the 5,500-mile artery that carries America's lifeblood, gas, diesel, jet fuel, from Texas up to New Jersey, had been shut down. A cyber attack took the company's IT systems out of commission, jolting all operations to a sudden halt. People panicked. If someone, say China, wanted to wreak chaos and havoc on the United States, this was how to do it.

115.404 - 131.097 Nicole Perlroth

But this wasn't the work of China or Russia or Iran for that matter. This was a group of cyber criminals looking for a quick payday. Colonial Pipeline was hit by ransomware and the attack didn't even hit the pipeline itself.

131.998 - 162.217 Nicole Perlroth

But without any way to bill its customers and with shaky confidence in the air gap between employees' computers and its pipeline operation, Colonial preemptively shut that down too. The country's largest pipeline was out of commission for five days. And had Colonial Pipeline not paid off its extortionists or had backups they could tap into, the paralysis could have been much, much worse.

163.098 - 194.387 Nicole Perlroth

Back at the Times, we got our hands on a confidential Department of Energy assessment that found that as a country, we could have only afforded three or four more days of downtime before that attack brought the entire U.S. economy to its knees. It wasn't so much the gas or jet fuel. We had the reserves for those. It was the diesel required to run our factories.

195.207 - 205.052 Nicole Perlroth

The attack and the dependencies it revealed caught the nation completely off guard. And China's leaders paid careful attention.

Chapter 3: What are the implications of China's cyber capabilities?

821.17 - 827.275 Expert on Chinese Economy

China's made no secret that it hopes to be there by 2049, the centennial party.

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827.696 - 837.984 Expert on China's Military

They're building up their military at an alarming rate. They want to be the number one economic power of the world and the number one economic military power in the world by 2049.

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838.845 - 866.784 Nicole Perlroth

And in Xi's grand vision, anything less than total reunification with Taiwan would render China's great rejuvenation incomplete. It's Xi's version of manifest destiny. And it's not just symbolic. It's a strategic imperative. In the party's eyes, Taiwan is more than just a renegade province. It's a U.S. outpost, a threat to China's territorial integrity.

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867.785 - 876.15 Nicole Perlroth

Geographically, Taiwan sits at the heart of the first island chain, a natural barrier to China's naval dominance in the Pacific.

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876.817 - 880.779 Defense Analyst

Taiwan sits at the heart of what we call in the United States the first island chain.

880.959 - 893.006

The first island chain stretches from Japan through Taiwan and the Philippines to the Malay Peninsula. This line of defense is designed to stop China's military from expanding into the Pacific.

893.026 - 899.49 Defense Analyst

If you look at the first island chain, these are all formal treaty allies of the United States or close partners in the case of Taiwan.

900.1 - 928.932 Nicole Perlroth

The islands form the first major geographic barrier between mainland China and the Pacific. The US and our allies see it as a containment line. China sees it as a strategic chokehold. And at the center, just 100 miles off the coast of mainland China, sits Taiwan, a linchpin, geographically, militarily, and symbolically. Because lest we forget China's all-consuming five poisons,

929.403 - 939.703 Expert on China

Well, it's the Uyghurs, it's Tibetans with the Dalai Lama, it's Falun Gong, the democracy movement, and then finally Taiwanese independence.

Chapter 4: How does Taiwan fit into China's military strategy?

1311.334 - 1313.895 Nicole Perlroth

Here's John Holquist, Mandiant's chief analyst.

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1314.585 - 1335.065 Cybersecurity Analyst

One of the strange things about this space is that you are fighting the next cyber war now, regardless of how far along it is to the actual game time, right? You have to do it now because when the big conflict comes, it's too late to root out these adversaries and it's too late for them to get access.

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1335.746 - 1345.221 Cybersecurity Analyst

The reality is, is most adversaries want to be in place in advance so that they're prepared where they are digging in for contingency.

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1347.617 - 1372.856 Nicole Perlroth

Now, what's clear in hindsight is rarely clear before the fact. But looking back on Russia's twin cyber assaults against the Ukraine grid back in 2015 and 2016 is like reading the tea leaves for Putin's eventual military invasion in 2022. So should we be reading China's incursions into our own infrastructure as tea leaves for a Taiwan invasion?

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1373.786 - 1393.516 Nicole Perlroth

Even saying that out loud risks falling down the creeping determinism trap. The economic and military risks to China of a Taiwan invasion would be massive. But China's cyber assaults on our infrastructure, and by the way, we're seeing very similar intrusions in Japan and Taiwan.

1394.336 - 1407.621 Nicole Perlroth

suggests at the very least that Xi is keeping his options open and ensuring that if he ever does pull the trigger, the battlefield is already tilted in his favor. Here's Andrew Scott again.

1407.641 - 1434.971 Andrew Scott (performing as Ripley)

I think much of what we may see in a Taiwan environment from the PRC is inside Taiwan very much a intel gathering, maybe disruption of services to support sort of military activity, along with disinformation and misinformation and all of those avenues. I think the thing that is fundamentally different here that we are most concerned about is the implications for the US homeland.

1436.064 - 1461.602 Nicole Perlroth

The implications for the U.S. homeland. This brings me to Matt Turpin. Turpin spent his career tracking the PRC's battlefield preparations. His resume spans decades and administrations. As Xi was stepping into power in 2012, Turpin was in Honolulu, serving as the chief war planner for the U.S. Pacific Command.

1462.522 - 1483.248 Nicole Perlroth

In 2013, he moved to the Pentagon, where he served as China advisor to the chairman and vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under Obama. When Trump first came to office, Turpin became China director to the National Security Council and Commerce Departments. These days, he's a senior advisor at Palantir and visiting fellow at Stanford's Hoover Institution.

Chapter 5: What is the significance of Taiwan in global semiconductor supply?

1698.375 - 1712.148 Cybersecurity Researcher

You have to be pre-positioned. You have to learn their system. You mentioned Stuxnet earlier. You look at all the time involved to create that system. So you have to do the work ahead of time so that you can press the button if you choose to.

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1714.352 - 1741.722 Nicole Perlroth

Stuxnet, if you'll recall, was a surgical U.S.-Israeli cyber strike that sabotaged Iran's nuclear program. But Stuxnet's code was only half the magic. The other half was in the years of preparation, the groundwork, learning the system, sneaking the code in on a USB stick, the pre-positioning. And that is exactly what China is doing with its living off the land attacks.

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1742.443 - 1768.835 Nicole Perlroth

Only this isn't a precision strike. It's a mass infiltration campaign targeting hundreds of critical systems, power, water. And these systems, they're far easier to infiltrate than Iran's nuclear lab. The bulk of our gas, our water pipelines were built decades ago when their primary threat was a tree root, not nation state hackers.

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1769.867 - 1790.306 Andrew Scott (performing as Ripley)

You're talking about networks and environments that for decades have been architected and run in a way that was never intended to take into account these sorts of risks. They were intended to take into account how do we maintain delivery of services in the event that a water pipe breaks or a lightning strike takes out a power generation facility.

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1791.764 - 1814.891 Nicole Perlroth

Volt Typhoon, China's elite infrastructure hackers, have radically changed the calculus. For now, they're lurking, lying in wait. The fear is, what happens when, or if, they decide to detonate on the access they already have? The everything, everywhere, all at once cyber attack.

1815.951 - 1838.243 Nicole Perlroth

To state it plainly, should they so choose, the PRC has the capability to cut off our access to water, power, transportation, gas, and a shutdown might be our best case scenario. The worst case scenario, it's almost too gruesome to spell out, but we've caught flashes.

1839.838 - 1859.554 Cybersecurity Analyst

In the summer of 2017, Russian hackers launched a more brazen and potentially much more dangerous attack, this time on Petro-Rabig, a massive oil refinery along the Red Sea in Saudi Arabia. On a Friday night in August, a safety system triggered the whole plant to shut down.

1859.914 - 1866.44 Cybersecurity Analyst

The hackers made a small coding mistake and they ended up shutting down the refinery instead of triggering a deadly explosion.

1869.039 - 1896.043 Nicole Perlroth

Saudi Arabia, 2017. Russian hackers got into Petro-Rabig, a major petrochemical facility, and were able to shut off the safety locks that prevent an explosion. Hackers have already demonstrated they have the ability to contaminate our drinking water by hacking into the chemical controls at water treatment facilities. Now, none of these scenarios have come to fruition.

Chapter 6: What could a cyber attack on U.S. infrastructure look like?

3101.9 - 3109.542 Nicole Perlroth

Last year, he broached whether the PRC would be open to drawing red lines around civilian targets, like water.

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3109.562 - 3130.211 Expert on China

I don't negotiate for the U.S. government, but I will occasionally ask questions that the U.S. government has asked me to ask. And the answer was no, we're not interested. Some of these are people I've known for a long time, and they had a good point. It's like, look, five years from now, 10 years from now, we're going to be much stronger than you. So why should we make a deal with you now?

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3130.331 - 3133.452 Expert on China

Because we'll have a better hand to play five years from now.

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3133.792 - 3152.681 Nicole Perlroth

So the answer was no. So long as the U.S. abides by the law of armed conflict, there will be targets that are off limits to us, but fair game to the CCP. And they know it. Which starts to make the mutual and mutually assured digital destruction ring a little hollow.

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3154.144 - 3169.077 Expert on China

I used to think that the Chinese had an advantage because when they showed up, they never brought lawyers. We, of course, had thousands or even millions of lawyers with us. It's like, geez. One time I said, the worst thing we could do to you people is teach you to do this rule of law stuff.

3169.818 - 3174.182 Nicole Perlroth

And speaking of red lines, here's Jenny Sterling in conversation at our live panel in March.

3174.813 - 3195.853 Jen Easterly

Well, first of all, they're not tiptoeing over the line. They're like way over the line, man. They're like, I mean, this was the whole point, right? This is not a theoretical threat. It's a very urgent threat where China is deep into our critical infrastructure, water, power, transportation, communication, specifically to lay in wait so they can launch disruptive and destructive attacks.

3195.913 - 3197.695 Jen Easterly

I think that is way over the line.

3198.894 - 3225.44 Nicole Perlroth

So here we are. China has tilted the digital battlefield in its favor. They're not respecting red lines. They've already crossed them. They're inside the house, inside our most critical infrastructure. And as tensions rise with Trump's trade war, the escalating rhetoric, this dangerous game of chicken, the economic entanglement that once acted as a break, is giving way.

Chapter 7: How do U.S. cyber defenses compare to China's?

4419.759 - 4427.226 Nicole Perlroth

All of this is what's called secure by design. And under Jenny Sterling, this became a major priority at CISA.

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4428.226 - 4454.939 Andrew Scott (performing as Ripley)

You've seen out of CISA and out of the administration, in the Biden administration, very much a focus on shifting the burden of security to those who can bear it, to the manufacturers of hardware and software that, quite frankly, need to do better with building in security by default into their hardware and software. We can't keep expecting small to medium-sized critical infrastructure

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4455.905 - 4473.463 Andrew Scott (performing as Ripley)

to owners and operators who have limited bandwidth, limited resources to bear all the burden of securing their networks and infrastructure. And we think that there's a lot more that industry can do in that space to really build in and bake in security from the beginning.

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4474.181 - 4499.302 Jen Easterly

Secure by Design is really focusing on technology vendors doing everything they can to prioritize security and product development. So safer, more secure products so that the burden isn't placed on customers and the end users and the small businesses or even the big businesses to have to constantly patch vulnerabilities.

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4503.166 - 4534.71 Nicole Perlroth

Secure by design is perhaps most urgent in one particular burgeoning field, AI. Artificial intelligence is rapidly embedding itself in how we communicate, how we diagnose illness, in surveillance and national defense. It promises incredible advancements and efficiency, freeing us to focus on higher order tasks. But behind the scenes, it's unleashed a Pandora's box of complexity.

4535.751 - 4568.998 Nicole Perlroth

And complexity is security's greatest enemy. It allows for entirely new points of entry and an entirely new range of dependencies. Many we don't and won't understand until someone exploits them. Every time we engage Gen AI, we're not just asking a question. We're handing over the keys to our private lives, our medical histories, our business secrets, even our unspoken thoughts.

4570.615 - 4596.222 Nicole Perlroth

I find the whole exercise to be a quiet, compounding surrender of trust. And soon that trust will be granted to AI agents, not just to answer our questions, but to manage business operations on our behalf. As a society, it appears we're determined to dive head first into AI, without a second thought as to how this might one day be used against us.

4598.084 - 4606.028 Nicole Perlroth

On this, I want to play you an interview that Paul Tudor Jones, the hedge fund manager, recently gave to Andrew Ross Sorkin this May.

4606.048 - 4634.461 Igor Yablokov

I went to this tech conference about two weeks ago out west, and I just want to share with you what I learned there. There was a tech panel that had four of the leading modelers of the AI models that we're all using today. The quick three takeaways from that are, one, wow, AI can be such a force for good. And we're gonna see it immediately in both health and education very quickly.

Chapter 8: What are the potential consequences of a Taiwan invasion?

5252.809 - 5257.491 Nicole Perlroth

Here's Nate Fick, our inaugural cyber ambassador who served under Biden.

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5257.511 - 5272.276 Ambassador Nate Fick

Is AI being used offensively? Yes, undoubtedly. I mean, I think it's intrinsic. We have to recognize that these technologies are always going to be used to generate advantage. But I'm even more excited, actually, about what AI can do on the defensive side.

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5272.676 - 5290.663 Ambassador Nate Fick

I think about the years that I spent running a company that was doing its best to build safe and secure software and investing an enormous amount of time and energy and money in quality assurance. And yet, still, when you're talking about millions and millions of lines of code, it was buggy stuff.

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5291.443 - 5299.151 Ambassador Nate Fick

And using AI to build better software, to create things that are more truly secure by design, I think is pretty exciting.

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5299.811 - 5329.758 Nicole Perlroth

What Nate's saying is yes, AI is already being used to hunt for vulnerable systems, to generate zero days and break in. But the same capabilities that can bind flaws can also fix them. all those bugs we introduced in our rush to move fast and break things, AI can do what our puny human mind seemingly cannot. Build secure code from inception.

5330.698 - 5361.598 Nicole Perlroth

And theoretically, it could even be used to go back and refactor faulty code at scale. All those sitting duck routers out there, the ones that reached end of life, the ones Chinese hackers are using right now to burrow into our infrastructure, AI could theoretically be used to hunt them, lock them down, and kick hackers out. Not yet, but that application is not far off.

5362.419 - 5392.848 Nicole Perlroth

And maybe most exciting of all, right now, AI tools exist that can spot the tiniest blips, the faintest signal, like a Volt typhoon hacker pinging a system every 90 days just to check they still have access. AI could help slash those dwell times from years and months down to days, maybe even down to minutes and seconds. Here's John Holquist.

5393.749 - 5414.484 Cybersecurity Analyst

But I'll tell you what, we did a hackathon, a security AI hackathon to see how some of the security engineers at Google could use AI. And there are 43 teams competing to just show us what cool thing you could do with AI for security. Nicole, if you sat in that room and you were a VC, you could have walked away with 20 new companies.

5415.445 - 5435.194 Cybersecurity Analyst

Like it is massively powerful for what security practitioners do because it's really good at finding anomalies, finding efficiencies. There's just a lot of really cool applications for what we do every day that are really exciting. And I actually think it's going to be ultimately a better tool for us than them.

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