The Ultimate Human with Gary Brecka
141. Max Lugavere: Seed Oils, LDL Cholesterol & Inflammation
Tue, 18 Feb 2025
What if everything you thought you knew about “heart-healthy” cooking oils was based on outdated science and clever marketing? In this episode, I’ve sat down once again with Max Lugavere, and we’ve had an amazing conversation about the metabolic chaos that modern seed oils are silently creating in our bodies, and why the food industry’s favourite oils might be driving the global rise in chronic disease. We also uncovered some actionable steps that we hope to see prioritised with the new government, and especially with the Make America Healthy Again movement. Ready to transform your understanding of nutrition and take control of your overall health? Hit subscribe and share this video with someone who needs to hear this message. Join Gary Brecka’s FREE 3-Day Morning Routine Challenge! 🗓️ LIVE February 19-21 👉 Sign up now Gain exclusive access to Gary Brecka’s proven wellness protocols: https://bit.ly/4ai0Xwg Connect with Max Lugavere: Get Max Lugavere book, “Genius Foods” Listen to "The Genius Life" on all your favorite platforms! YouTube: https://bit.ly/3X5fVQO Spotify: https://spoti.fi/4gJiBL8 Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/4gOCmAS Connect with Max Lugavere: Website: https://bit.ly/3XLOGdN YouTube: https://bit.ly/4eJc6r7 Instagram: https://bit.ly/3BsEf7y TikTok: https://bit.ly/3Y8ov2w Facebook: https://bit.ly/3Y4QkZr X.com: https://bit.ly/3ZMQgPk Thank you to our partners: BODYHEALTH - USE CODE “ULTIMATE20” FOR 20% OFF: http://bit.ly/4e5IjsV BAJA GOLD - USE CODE "ULTIMATE10" FOR 10% OFF: https://bit.ly/3WSBqUa EIGHT SLEEP - SAVE $350 ON THE POD 4 ULTRA WITH CODE “GARY”: https://bit.ly/3WkLd6E STRENGTH TRAINING EQUIPMENT - THE ULTIMATE HUMAN: https://bit.ly/3zYwtSl COLD LIFE - THE ULTIMATE HUMAN PLUNGE: https://bit.ly/4eULUKp WHOOP - GET 1 FREE MONTH WHEN YOU JOIN!: https://bit.ly/3VQ0nzW MASA CHIPS - GET 20% OFF YOUR FIRST $50+ ORDER: https://bit.ly/40LVY4y VANDY - USE CODE “ULTIMATE20” FOR 20% OFF: https://bit.ly/49Qr7WE PARKER PASTURES - PREMIUM GRASS-FED MEATS: https://bit.ly/4hHcbhc AION - USE CODE “ULTIMATE10” FOR 10% OFF: https://bit.ly/4h6KHAD HAPBEE - FEEL BETTER & PERFORM AT YOUR BEST: https://bit.ly/4a6glfo CARAWAY - USE CODE “ULTIMATE10” FOR 10% OFF: https://bit.ly/3Q1VmkC Watch the “Ultimate Human Podcast” every Tuesday & Thursday at 9AM EST: YouTube: https://bit.ly/3RPQYX8 Podcasts: https://bit.ly/3RQftU0 Connect with Gary Brecka: Instagram: https://bit.ly/3RPpnFs TikTok: https://bit.ly/4coJ8fo X.com: https://bit.ly/3Opc8tf Facebook: https://bit.ly/464VA1H Website: https://bit.ly/4eLDbdU Merch: https://bit.ly/4aBpOM1 Newsletter: https://bit.ly/47ejrws Ask Gary: https://bit.ly/3PEAJuG Timestamps: 00:00 Intro 04:11 What is Seed Oil? And Why Is It Bad For You? 10:21 Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids in Seed Oils 14:25 Awareness on Food Labeling 20:28 High Volumes of Oxidised Oils in Blood Stream Risks 25:55 Animal-Source Foods Play an Important Role in an Optimised Diet 36:00 Randomised Clinical Trials on Red Meat 38:48 Top 5 Sports Supplements 42:25 Supplementation for Vegans and Vegetarians 45:02 Actionable Steps the Government Can and Should Do 54:54 Nutrition for Brain Health 59:22 Final Question: What does it mean to you to be an “Ultimate Human?’ The Ultimate Human with Gary Brecka Podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing or other professional health care services, including the giving of medical advice, and no doctor/patient relationship is formed. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from this podcast is at the user’s own risk. The Content of this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Users should not disregard or delay in obtaining medical advice for any medical condition they may have and should seek the assistance of their health care professionals for any such conditions. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Chapter 1: What is the focus of the Ultimate Human Podcast with Max Lugavere?
Hey guys, welcome back to the Ultimate Human Podcast. I'm your host, human biologist, Gary Brekka, where we go down the road of everything anti-aging, biohacking, longevity, and everything in between. And a trip to LA would not be complete without having Max Lugavere back on the podcast. It was one of the best podcasts that we've launched.
I mean, the story that you told about your journey with your mother and Alzheimer's and how you really became an advocate. And I say this all the time. I feel like I start every podcast the same way, but I've truly found that people that are the most impactful, the most passionate, the most driven and purposeful are people that solve the problem in their life.
And you really solve the problem when, you know, your mother was probably the closest, I'm going to assume relative to you. you know, went through that time and you just said, I, I need answers. And so if you guys have not watched the podcast that I did with Max, um, on the journey with his mother and how he became an advocate, um, for, for mental health, it's a really, it's a phenomenal podcast.
I linked all of the research in the, in the show notes and even gave a link to the documentary that he did with his mother. Um, I, I was, you know, Before every podcast, and I know you so well, and we just had a great time at the Maha Ball, which was awesome. We had a great time at the Turning Point Ball, which was a great time, other than the weather. Yeah.
It was like freaking nine degrees, and all the women were walking a mile in open-toed heels.
I know. It was like being in a cryotherapy chamber. Yeah.
Yeah, I didn't think about it that way. I should have turned that into a positive. I'm getting all this vasoconstriction and brown fat activation and dopamine, but I was actually pissed off. So maybe the dopamine didn't work.
I know, well, you're constricted, you're wearing a tux.
It's like, oh. But I ran into a great clip that you did. And I think it was either during a congressional hearing or when you were on Capitol Hill not too long ago. And you made a comment and you said, if your grocery store has a health food section, What does that tell you about the rest of the grocery store? And, you know, as obvious as that is, it just made me go, you know, it is so true.
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Chapter 2: Why are seed oils considered harmful?
You know, just how far away from the basics, you know, eating whole foods and nutritious soil and getting back to the basics, the war on saturated fat, you know, the promotion of seed oil, the allowance through grass that's generally regarded as safe guideline that the FDA has that we can actually take microtoxins on a regular basis. And so I want to kind of
roam around that, that with you, because I consider you an authority on that. And, and maybe we should start with one of the most controversial topics, which is seed oils. And I think that a basic explanation of what is a seed oil? Why is it bad for you? And so pro-inflammatory, we had an awesome discussion before the podcast started about, you know, its impact on LDL cholesterol.
And I thought that your viewpoint on that was really good because you talked about the house of cards collapsing on LDL cholesterol. So I wonder if you might expand on that.
Yeah, so seed oils are obviously very controversial today. Everybody's talking about them. I actually, I think, was very prescient in my, you know, diving into this topic in my book, Genius Foods, which came out in 2018, which the manuscript I wrote around 2016. And there have been other people sort of broaching this issue. I mean, Weston A. Price, I think, was one of the earliest people.
Yeah, Paul Salandino has been big on it. Talk about it. Yeah. Dr. Kate Shanahan. Yeah. You know, the evidence is kind of all over the place. And I think it's a little bit, we have to talk about seed oils, not as a monolith, but with nuance.
And, you know, when discussing these kinds of oils, there are the culinary oils like sesame seed oil, which have been used in various traditional cuisines for millennia, which I think can be perfectly healthy and add, you know, great qualities to certain recipes and flavors. And, you know, I think those are fine.
But the oils that are in question, particularly today, are the what are sometimes referred to as RBD oils, which stands for refined, bleached and deodorized oils. These are the highly marketed cooking oils that have only really had a presence in the human food supply for the past couple of decades. And the issue with these and even within the refined bleached and deodorized seed oil category.
First of all, when you say refined bleached and deodorized, I mean, you should come to a full stop right now because there's no mechanism in nature for something to be refined bleached or deodorized.
Correct. Yes. So I mean, we've now, I think many of us in the nutrition community are placing an emphasis on awareness around ultra processed foods, right? We generally want to, you know, minimize our consumption of ultra processed foods, which now make up 60% of the calories of your average adult. But what about ultra-processed food ingredients?
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Chapter 3: How do polyunsaturated fatty acids affect health?
So among the fatty acids that predominate our diets, you've got unsaturated fatty acids and you've got saturated fatty acids, right? Those are the two major categories. Saturated fats are the most chemically stable. They tend to be solid at room temperature. And under the bucket of unsaturated fats, you've got your polyunsaturated fatty acids and your monounsaturated fatty acids.
Polyunsaturated fatty acids are very prone to a chemical process known as oxidation, where essentially the oils go bad. They go rancid. And that process is catalyzed by exposure to light, heat, and oxygen. And so these refined bleach and deodorized seed oils, they tend to be predominantly polyunsaturated in nature.
And that's not the case for all of them because there are seed oils like high oleic sunflower oil, which I actually think is fine because it's mostly monounsaturated fat, which has a degree of chemical protection. It's less prone to this oxidative process. But polyunsaturated fats are essentially naked because...
They're the most prone to oxidation and they're extracted from the food matrix, which often coincides with antioxidants that protect those fats. In fact, in nature, where you see higher levels of polyunsaturated fats, you also see higher levels of certain antioxidants like vitamin E. whose role in nature is mainly to guard these polyunsaturated fatty acids against oxidation.
So in foods where you have higher levels of polyunsaturated fats, you see higher levels of vitamin E, which is why nuts are one of the primary sources of both polyunsaturated fats in the diet, as well as vitamin E. Okay, I didn't know that. Polyunsaturated fats... are not inherently unhealthy, and vitamin E is super important from a brain health standpoint.
The problem is when we extract these fats from the whole food matrix and we expose them to these caustic chemical solvents like hexane or others, and then we expose them to heat, which often occurs during the deodorization process, And then we further use them to cook with, which ironically is what they're marketed as being ideal for.
Then you're further catalyzing this oxidative process to these polyunsaturated fats, which are very vulnerable. And oxidation occurs when we ingest these fats in us. Right. But it can also occur in the external environment when they're used in the fryer setting, when they're used to, you know, create ultra processed foods. And so that's potentially really harmful. Right.
The other problem is that there are byproducts of oxidation. So it's not just that the fatty acids themselves become oxidized, but all of these other nasty compounds are generated.
When a high polyunsaturated fatty acid dominant seed oil is exposed to high heat and reheated in particular, you know, you're not just damaging the fatty acids, but you're generating all of these noxious compounds like acrolein and 4-hydroxynonanol, which have been shown to... be cancer causing and be associated with conditions like Alzheimer's disease for hydroxy non-anol in particular.
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Chapter 4: What are the potential risks of oxidized oils in the bloodstream?
Wow. Yeah. And now that figure is like, it's less than 15%. I mean, it's way lower. And the bulk of that, of those fats have been replaced by these grain and seed oils. Like most of the, the majority of fats in the human diet today come from soybean oil. Right. And corn oil. Yeah. And canola. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. It's like, it's a, it's shocking. So the fact that these, you know, the idea that these fats are benign and not having some kind of physiologic effect. I mean, it's just that that doesn't even pass like logical muster, you know? It's like, of course they're doing something. We just have to figure out what that something is. One thing that they do do,
and this was actually shown in a paper by Ramsden, I forget which year, but people can look this up, is that they increase in the blood something called oxalams, oxidized linoleic acid metabolites. And these have been associated with Alzheimer's disease. I mean, these compounds.
Atherosclerosis. Yeah, narrowing of the arteries. You find a lot of these oxidative species, you know, at the site of inflammation and also, you know, at the site of, you know, where cholesterol coalesce into, you know, these plaques. And I think often we... We blame cholesterol for crimes it's not committing. You know, I often refer to cholesterol as a fireman.
You know, if your house catches fire, the fireman shows up to put the fire out. But it didn't just show up randomly, right? I mean, if this Airbnb had never caught fire, firemen would never show up in the driveway, right? But if it did, they would show up to extinguish the fire. Cholesterol is usually called to the site of inflammation. And I think it's something that goes lost on a lot of folks.
They just think because of the presence of LDL cholesterol, especially if LDL cholesterol is in higher amounts, then I have a higher risk for narrowing of the arteries or arteriosclerosis. But that's like making the argument that if there were more firemen, we would have more fires. But that line of thinking is not true. And I think it is about to be... majorly disproven.
But one of the things that I liked that you were saying before the podcast started was we have to understand that these polyunsaturated fatty acids are built on the backs of this entire house of cards built around LDL cholesterol. And if one of those cards like polyunsaturated fatty acids falls apart, the house of cards starts to come down because you're like, well, if...
If the fact that these, because the pro-seed oil discussion is, well, they lower LDL cholesterol. And isn't LDL cholesterol terrible? Isn't LDL cholesterol bad for you? Isn't LDL cholesterol the genesis of all heart disease? I mean, shouldn't you, if you have high LDL cholesterol, lower it as low as you possibly can? And if seed oil is lower LDL cholesterol, then the argument's over.
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Chapter 5: Do animal-source foods play a role in a healthy diet?
elevated LDL cholesterol was correlated to decreased mortality, we would have had it as a risk factor, what we call morbidity factor or comorbidity factor, but it wasn't. In fact, it was, it was oppositely correlated in older ages that the higher the LDL cholesterol, the more it was correlated to longevity. We didn't,
at the time that I was there, processed death claims on centenarians, which we would see from time to time. Sometimes in life insurance, the policy does what they call endows. So if you actually make it to age 100, the death claim pays. So kind of fun to like screw your children and make it to 101 years old and be like, hey, dad just got his life insurance. 101, I'm going on a bender. Wow, yeah.
I just got 10 million tax free. But, um, uh, but what was interesting about these death claims is many of them died in, you know, hospital or assisted care living facilities or, you know, other kind of areas where we had blood work. And, uh, universally across the board, they had what we would consider to be, you know, elevated levels of LDL cholesterol. Wow. And yet these are the centenarians.
And great longevity.
Yeah, and great longevity. So he and I went deep down the rabbit hole with this. If you want to check that podcast out, it's Dr. Asim Malhotra. But I saw a tweet of yours that I want to dig into because I happen to agree with it. Agree with most of your tweets. Aside from being funny, you've got some great one-liners. But...
You tweeted about the five best sports supplements, creatine, beta-alanine, nitrates, caffeine, and protein. And I wonder if we might discuss that. I mean, obviously, I think protein is... pretty well vetted and discussed. I don't think anybody considers protein to not be excellent for sports nutrition. But what about beta alanine, creatine, nitrates, caffeine?
Why did those make your top five list?
Yeah, well, actually, that was a review that just came out and it sought to elucidate the five top sports supplements. So the five top sports supplements, according to this new review, was creatine, which was sort of the king.
I would, by the way, agree with that. I think it is the most underserved nutrient in 40 plus year old females. Especially perimenopausal premenopausal, postmenopausal women.
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Chapter 6: What does research say about red meat and health risks?
Monohydrate by far. The monohydrate or the HCL?
Yeah. Most of the research is on creatine monohydrate. Okay. Yeah. So creatine HCL might be as efficacious and safe, but I don't think we know. And monohydrate is super cheap and it's very easy to find. Yeah. Yeah. Most of the research, you know, centers on that.
And how does beta alanine play into that?
That's a good question. I mean, beta alanine is not something that I'm all that familiar with, actually, which is part of the reason why I was like reading that research review, because it's not something that I currently use. But it did seem to make the list. And there is this interesting thing. It does give you tingles when you take it.
Like a niacin flush or something? Yeah, something like that.
It does feel very similar to that. But yeah, but the fact that it made the top five, I mean, that to me is very interesting.
Yeah, and then nitrates because, you know, we classically would look for nitrate-free meats and consider nitrates to be things that are embedded in highly processed meats. Yeah. And are these the same nitrates? Same. Wow.
Yeah, same.
So maybe we're coming full circle on the... Well, nitrates basically support your body's nitric oxide pathway, right? which normalizes blood pressure, can reduce blood pressure, and also increase blood flow. So, I mean, everybody's familiar with the certain pharmaceutical that works to increase blood flow in a region of the body.
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