Stephanie is joined by Jennifer White from ThinkingAhead’s legal recruiting space, who shares the unique challenges and rewards of working with firms, explains retained vs. contingency searches, partners vs. vendors, and more wisdom from her top-producing desk.Discover what sets ThinkingAhead apart, hear stories from recruiters, and browse opportunities by clicking here.
Thank you.
Hello, and welcome to the Talent Trade. I am your host, Stephanie Moss, partner with Thinking Ahead Executive Search. Today, I am super jazzed to have one of the best of the best in the business with us today. Jen White joined our firm three years ago. She came out of the gates swinging.
She broke our 20 plus year top first year record and has been a top producer every year since then in the legal recruiting space. Super happy to have you with us. And Jen, I'll let you tell us a little bit more about you and your niche, and then we'll dive into our topic. Thank you so much, Steph.
Yes, I joined three years ago in the legal space. I have been in sales and marketing for, I would say, my entire career in one aspect or the other. And I love recruiting for law firms and for attorneys. It's a great group of people to get to know and to chat with. Most attorneys are networkers at heart because they have their own kind of sense of book of business that they're trying to build.
So in ways we kind of line up in that, in that sense. So I've really, really enjoyed it. We have a wonderful team and my coworkers on my team. I just love, so I feel very blessed to be here.
We're super. Super thankful to have you. So today, Jen, my understanding is you are going to lead us through a little bit of a discussion as it relates to partnership versus vendor, all that stuff in the legal recruiting business.
So a lot of times the way that things work when you are in the legal recruiting field is there's different types of ways that you can partner with law firms. The law firms are considered the client and the attorneys are considered the candidate. And if you can kind of liken it a little bit to real estate where the clients are the sellers and then the candidates are the buyers.
So what you're trying to do is get to know your clients, your firms as much as possible and and be able to have the respect that they would be calling you. So what I thought would be a good idea is to kind of go through the steps of how to get to be at the desk in the C-suite with these firms. So there's different types of searches that you have.
You can start out with a contingent search, which basically means they have a need and they're sending it out to all the recruiters out there and candidates alike. Sometimes it will be posted on their on their firm websites. It's a little bit like acting like you're a sports agent. So you have the talent and you're kind of shopping them around to each of these firms.
So that's the contingent basis. Everyone has the same shot at the person that you are working with, the candidate. So the good thing about that is that you have a lot of shots on goal. You can have this candidate go out to different types of firms. However, there's no guarantee that you're going to get paid.
So sometimes what you do is you'll try to have that firm, a firm in particular, be a client that you want to have a retained search with. And what that means is that you're identifying a firm that you feel like has great opportunities because I think that's one thing is identifying which firms you want to work with is just as key as them identifying which recruiters.
Because if you have a search that no one wants and it's a dog search, then you're really kind of shitting yourself in the foot because even though you may get money up front, you are probably not going to get the rest of that money because it's a really difficult find. So when you identify the firm and you realize that it's a great firm that you want to work with, that's number one.
But you have to make sure that the firm's good. You're going to have a successful search. It's actually something that people are going to want to join. That's kind of what I think it's important for people to realize. You don't just want to work with anyone.
And then the approach of how you want to work with these firms can be either you identified them and you've never worked with them and never placed with them, but you've always known about them. And you're going to pitch that routine search right off the bat. Then there's the way that you have worked with them in the contingent side.
That's kind of how I like to do it because you kind of want to work and you kind of want to place somebody at these firms. You want to know the entire process from start to finish because when you're going to retain search, you're really promising them that they will find the talent. They're paying you and it's only you searching for them.
So knowing the ins and out of that firm, I think is really important. So the approach would be, in my opinion, to Work with them on a contingent basis. Then if you want to go in and then have the retained basis, you kind of understand some bumps up front and you're not kind of setting yourself up for disappointment. But that being said, it's definitely fine to go ahead and
Pitch for the retained if it's a firm that you feel like you want to work with and you feel like it's a great shot. So I don't want to sway it anyone that way. But my approach, I like to kind of go with the contingent and then retained. And then once you do have that ability to partner with a firm. It's really great to make sure that you know who the key players are.
A lot of times in these firms, especially with legal, they always use recruiter. So there'll be an in-house recruiter that you might have the initial conversations with. which is great. They're usually really good at what they do. They're going to be able to lead you down the path and have your pitch kick off.
But what I would recommend too is having the discussion with them that if things are getting a little sticky, a little hairy, you're bringing in some candidates that you feel like they should be hiring. and it's not going well, make sure you have the ability to reach out to the managing partners one-on-one. Because sometimes things just get lost in the shuffle.
Sometimes playing operator, what you think you're hearing and what they're saying might not be exactly coming across. So you just want to make sure that you have a clear line to the decision makers Definitely talk to the people that you're supposed to talk to. You don't want to go around anyone's back.
But make sure that if things are not going as well as planned, that you do have the ability to go right to the horse's mouth and the decision maker. And then the other thing, too, that's important to focus on when you are partnering with a firm. is maintaining those objectives and maintaining the satisfaction level that you were promising them.
If you feel like there's something that's happening that is not going well, either whether or not the candidate is, you're not being able to find the candidates because that's one thing too that can be a little bit nerve wracking. You can get these pitches. You can be at the table with them. You can tell them, hey, I'm going to be able to find this candidate. Don't worry.
And you go out there and it's just the toughest search that you could ever work on. Be honest and let them know you're going to be showing your work. You're going to be showing your efforts. You're going to be having your biweekly meetings with them telling, hey, I've made 100 calls this week. I've had this reaction to this search.
And I think the other thing, too, is making sure that you feel honest enough to give them that honest feedback. Sometimes, you know, a managing partner may be really difficult to work with and they have a reputation. That could be something that you find out after you've already signed the dotted line and gotten your retained deposit down.
So you just want to make sure that you're always just tactfully showing them what it is that they need to say. Because look, if they know the managing partner might be difficult, they never were told that. So either way, good news, bad news, I think is also what you want to do in order to maintain that relationship with them.
I think the other thing too is, is that sometimes things may not work out as well as you had hoped. So you have to remember that there might be a time for you to pivot away from that relationship in a sense. So if that's the case, just make sure you're not burning any bridges. Do your best that you can do. I think the other thing too is,
helping to have that communication of how often you should be communicating with them during the search. If you are doing everything that you could, if they wanted you to get them all this information and it didn't go well still, I think the thing that you can always do is just say, hey, you know what? I respect you guys. I think that I've tapped the market out.
Maybe it's time for you guys to go find another recruiter that you feel like might have a fresh eye. So it's just kind of important to make sure that you also have that ability to kind of part ways and not have to always just hang on to that one particular client.
Because once you do sit at that table, you're going to be having a lot of time and effort from your own desk searching for this particular search. So you just want to make sure that you're still able to keep some things, some irons in the fire while you're busy with that.
Super cool. I'm going to go back and ask a couple questions along the way that I think might be super helpful. I know a lot of folks get pushback from internal talent acquisition folks about working directly with a hiring manager.
And I would imagine, especially in your niche with attorneys, billing by the hour, what's some of the language or what are some of the ways that you're able to kind of break through that internal stiff farm to really get the time and the attention of the decision makers?
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. To that managing partner. Don't worry about it. Email them. Say, hey, I think that there's been a couple of miscommunications or hey, this candidate seems to be at everything that you have looked for. I'm not sure why things aren't progressing the way that they should. I would love just to bend your ear five minutes at the most.
Can you let me know if after hours I could have a conversation with you? That's usually when they'll be a little bit more receptive. I mean, when I did have this conversation, it was at 7.30 at night. I didn't care. They didn't care. But it was kind of meeting them where they needed to be.
I think that that's the other thing, too, is give them the opportunity to kind of be outside of work hours to talk.
And then when you do that, do you ever get that proverbial slap on the wrist saying, hey, I told you not to communicate with them. And if so, how do you handle that?
So I haven't actually had that with a retained search situation. So I can go to the contingency in a second. But when I'm working as a retained search, I feel like they understand that my job is to get the candidate, the right candidate. So I apologized in the sentence. I said, I'm sorry if I'm stepping on any toes.
I just want to let you know, I'm going to have a conversation with XYZ tonight at 7.30. You guys are amazing. I will make you look great when I'm talking to him. Don't worry. I alleviated any sense of, gosh, they just start getting it. I just said to them, hey, don't worry. I'm going to be your biggest fan, but I'm here. I want to make you look good.
So I'm going to go right to them and see what the situation is. From the standpoint of, yes, I've had my hand slapped a couple of times, not many, but like you don't mean to do it. Sometimes it's by accident. You don't realize the protocol. And when that happens, they can just say, hey, this is your one chance. We understand that you didn't understand that you shouldn't be contacting them.
But when that happens, it happens a lot, honestly. I think that they're kind of used to recruiters. I mean, look, we're salespeople. You have to have a certain assertiveness in your personality to begin with. You don't want to do it all the time.
But if it's something that you feel like is going to light a fire for this particular candidate to come in, then you're just going to kind of ask for forgiveness instead of permission sometimes. Yeah.
Absolutely. And then going back to something else you said earlier about, you know, identifying the kind of companies that you want to work with. You know, it's one thing when you've been in a niche for a while and you know, reputations of organizations, you know, reputations.
But when you're newer, how do you determine, you know, hey, what are some key identifiers I'm going to look for when taking a new search or looking for a new partnership?
When you're starting out in the legal industry, I think it's smart, first of all, to have a geographical area that you're working with, because that will just kind of keep your knowledge as you're making these calls, connecting with either managing partners, other recruiters, other attorneys, they're gonna know people more.
So you kind of wanna just dive into those conversations, make those calls, ask about certain firms from people that you see had worked there and left, How did you leave? Was it on good terms? If you kind of get the sense that people leave on good terms a lot and that it was more just kind of an opportunistic, I kind of hit my ceiling. Then you'll kind of get a sense to, hey, you know what?
That firm actually isn't a bad firm. They're not because you'll hear the bad firms better than more than the good firms. The good firms, you know, it's almost like if there's nothing said, then that's kind of a good that's a good talent pool to kind of, you know, to recruit for it.
But I think also most of these firms should be doing a good job of selling themselves to recruiters because they rely on us. So what I'll do is I'll call the director of the recruiting and I'll say, because the managing partners really don't have, I mean, they're not really there to sell to candidates necessarily. They're there to sell to their clients to get the book of business.
So from that standpoint, they do have a pretty good pitch there. But from a culture standpoint, from a benefit standpoint, from a path to partnership standpoint, most of the legal firms around the United States, especially, have the ability to give you even a marketing pitch book. They'll give it to you. And they'll say, this is what makes us different. These are the type of clients.
This is the path to partnership. And you'll end up learning about these firms. And then you choose what you like. You know, like personally, when I heard about a firm that said, hey, you know what, we're boutique, but we're kind of California chic where we come in, we're allowed to wear jeans as long as we look professional. You know, we work hard and play hard. That's kind of my mentality.
So it's easy for me to understand the benefits of that. Now, if I were to go to a firm that's like, listen, we're super buttoned up. We stay here for 17, 20 years. I can sell it, sure. But it's easier to kind of know what firm I would want to be working for. And then that's kind of how I decide because you just have that passion about it.
And you can tell when you're kind of selling it to a candidate. So it's kind of, I think, get your own taste and your own personal aspect of it. If you like it, it'll be easier to sell.
Very cool. Super helpful. Have you ever kind of said, hey, I've done everything I could, try to leave it the best way you can, and then after a period of time, come back to work with them again? Definitely.
So there were a couple of firms that I was just in their back pocket texting. I was their number one kind of reach out to. Then I kind of got busier with some other things going on. So it kind of gradually just drifted away. There was no reason, there was no hard feelings, but you just kind of went your way. I just pick up the phone and call them and say, hey, long time no talk.
Listen, I see this search. Tell me about it. You just kind of just keep it pragmatic. You know, don't be like, hey, I'm so sorry we weren't talking. It's business, you know, so you just go back. If you feel like you find something, if you found something awesome. that they have out on their searches or if they sent an email about, hey, we need help, you just kind of dive back in.
I mean, you're going to have different pools that you're going to hang out with throughout your entire career, hopefully if you have a long career here. So that's just going to kind of happen, I think.
Anything else we have not talked about that you think might be helpful for the good of our listeners?
I think one of the things that we have to remember as recruiters is there's enough to go around. I think that people can get a little bit territorial. And they get a little bit like they'll just kind of throw the resumes out there and not really care about whether or not it's the right fit.
I think that we all just as recruiters have to remember that we're all trying to do our best and to lean into each other more. I think that that would be really helpful, you know, give each other pats on the back. That's one thing that I would like to start seeing a little bit more. I have been seeing it more, but this type of legal recruiting especially is getting extremely saturated.
So I think that if, you know, if you're working with, if I work with a candidate and they say that they're working with another recruiter, I always say to them, you know, I would really appreciate if you'd let them know that you are going to pivot. Don't just go blank on them. Because we don't get paid until we place somebody.
So I think that that's kind of one of the things that, you know, what goes around comes around is something that I try to really think about. And I think that if you are thinking about getting into this, or if you already are a recruiter and you're successful, or if you're having a hard time, definitely reach out to me. I would love to network. I would love to chat.
I'm always here to kind of help out my fellow recruiter.
That's awesome. And thank you so much for joining us, sharing some of your wisdom. Really appreciate your time and energy here. Thank you so much, Steph. It's always so great to chat with you.