The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
531. Irreversible Damage at Fourteen | Detransitioner Clementine Breen
Thu, 20 Mar 2025
Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down with Clementine Breen, a child who was moved through the transgender pipeline and has since de-transitioned. Together they walk through her story (from early sexual abuse to the daunting decision to undergo affirming surgery), the confusion and fallout thereafter, reorientation, and her lawsuit against the doctor who led her astray. Clementine Breen is a de-transitioner who experienced early sexual abuse before having her gender dysphoria misdiagnosed as being transgender. Top surgery was sold to her at age 13, all the while her parents were told the atrocious “dead daughter or living son” lie. She is currently embroiled in a landmark lawsuit against her former doctor, Dr. Olson Kennedy. This episode was filmed on January 1st, 2025. | Links | For Clementine Breen:On X https://x.com/clementine_fb
Chapter 1: What led Clementine Breen to transition?
Did you tell them about the abuse? I did not. Well, how much investigation into your history took place? Very little, because the second we got into my history, it just came crumbling down. In my referral, it says that I had held a male identity since childhood. Besides just physical discomfort with my body and just feeling disconnected from girls, it was really no sign of prior gender dysphoria.
Discomfort with your body and feeling disconnected with girls, that's called puberty.
Right. I was already cleared for surgery, so I traveled to San Francisco. Recommendation of Olson, the specific doctor.
By the time I was there... Why the specific doctor?
Because he doesn't have age limits. No age limits. Yeah. What's interesting about my case too is even in my referral notes, which the surgeon saw, there's conflicting information. So immediately you can tell it's sort of rubber stamped and they didn't really look through it.
So now you wake up after surgery.
Yeah.
What's that like?
Yeah.
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Chapter 2: What role did early trauma play in Clementine's story?
Then you might say, well, women also have to take care of infants, so being threat-sensitive is reasonable because they're going to be more sensitive to dangers to their baby, but they also become sexually vulnerable, right? And their boys and men become physically much more powerful than women at that point, too. So it appears as though
what nature does to address that imbalance is increase the negative emotion that women feel. That happens at puberty. But there's one more twist to that. And I'd like to know if any of this was explained to you, because it should have been. The typical pattern that negative emotion takes in young women is bodily concern. And it's partly because women are evaluated
for better or worse, in consequence of their physical appearance. And so it's very commonly the case that if a woman is anxious and depressed, is experiencing high levels of negative emotion, that expresses itself as hyper-concern about bodily appearance. Right. Now, when you... were brought when you were little. Maybe you don't remember even, but how much of that was explained to you?
None of that was explained. Okay, so one of the things I'd like to point out to everyone watching is there's no excuse for not explaining this. If you're a physician who's trained well enough to dare to meddle in someone's gender identity, and if you're a counselor who's counseling someone who hypothetically has gender dysphoria, especially someone female, then these are elementary facts.
The first thing you do when you deal with someone who is anxious and depressed when they're female and they're entering puberty is to explain this. It's psychology-based. I wouldn't call it 101. It's developmental psychology 101. And so that's minimum necessary information. Now, there's a reason that that should be explained to you, you know.
So it's very frequently the case that people who are having psychological trouble, so excess anxiety and depression, let's say, they feel like they're the only people who are in that boat. So they feel isolated and alone and sort of singled out. And part of the reason you explain that The prevalence of a given diagnosis even to someone is to say, you're not alone. This isn't unique to you.
In fact, it's quite common. These are the symptoms that are commonly associated with it. These are the reasons for the symptoms. And, well, in the case of the symptoms that you describe, the typical pattern is that even... adolescents who are radically gender dysphoric adapt by the time they're 18. At least 80% of them. This has been known for, well, I'd say four decades, five decades.
It's been known a long time. It's been replicated many times. It's a very stable finding. So the... Reliable clinicians and physicians have concluded, especially before all of this got politicized, that if a child is severely gender dysphoric, the best thing to do is nothing until they're 18. Most of them are... what would you say, reconciled to their fate by that point.
And that's also not that atypical because puberty throws a monkey wrench into everyone's works. Now, you were at particular risk for that, and you said why. Now, when you went and saw Olson Kennedy and the counselor, tell me her name again. Susan Landon. Susan Landon, right. Right. Did you tell them about the abuse? I did not, but they didn't ask.
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Chapter 3: How did medical professionals approach Clementine's case?
That did sort of happen, but I also got more reckless and more depressed and more anxious and I could hardly sleep and things like that were just happening. And it got so bad by the time I was 17, I could hardly focus in school. I was up all night, every single night. My insomnia had become psychosis. What were those symptoms? I was having full-blown hallucinations. Auditory or visual?
Visual and auditory. Mostly auditory. It was like hearing voices and whispers and shouting from the other room.
What sort of things were the whispers saying?
It was a lot of, this is all in my therapist notes, but it was a lot of stuff about hurting other people and specifically men, which was something I had actually talked to Landon about. And she attributed to my trans identity. Do you have an alternative attribution? I think that it was because of the sexual abuse that I experienced.
Well, that would be the obvious. Right. Do you remember, as I said before we started the interview, you don't have to answer any of these questions, right? So do you remember what the voices were telling you?
Certain things would be if I had positive relationships with people, I would always be told to hurt those people or say certain things. In class, it would always be like, you have to get out of here. You have to run or like things like that. Lots of like whisperings that would overlap at times. But it was always trying to get me to do things that were very impulsive.
And sometimes I would do those things and I would act very impulsively or out of control or really high risk behaviors I was doing.
Okay, and that was all happening around 17?
Yeah, around 16, 17.
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Chapter 4: What were the effects of testosterone on Clementine?
She also asserted that that was basically the only treatment available.
Okay. There is no evidence of that suicide risk. That is a lie, and it's a pathological and manipulative lie. I don't think that I've... run across any deeper lie told by psychological counselors and medical professionals than that gender affirming care is the only alternative to suicide, the safest alternative to suicide for kids who have gender dysphoria.
I don't think there's a shred of evidence anywhere in the clinical literature, no matter how you look at it, to support that. Conclusion. Right. So, okay, so now your parents are in a bind.
Yeah.
Okay, so what's happening with them? You said it takes a few months. Tell me what happens.
My parents were very reluctant originally, and they were constantly like, I don't believe this. You have never expressed this before. And Olson would have conversations with me or conversations with them where I wasn't there or conversations with me separately. And then she'd talk to my parents.
I don't know exactly what was said, but I know it was just asserting the same rhetoric that I was at very high risk for suicide, that my depression was going to get worse if they didn't act on this now. And it was also... There was a lot of social pressure put on me because Olson kept bringing up keeping up with male peers and keeping up with people in my class. Time is of the essence.
Right, as if there was some need to act as quick as possible.
How many times do you suppose you and your family were instructed by Olson Kennedy, let's say, that— there was an ever-present risk of suicide, that that was real and immediate, and that this was the appropriate treatment. How many times do you suppose that was discussed?
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Chapter 5: How did societal pressure influence Clementine's decisions?
Well, the two people who wrote my referral letters were Olson and Landon. So I hardly had any extra psychological evaluation because they just... wrote the letters because they'd already been seeing me and they didn't really ask me much additional questions. And then when I went in for surgery, I had already had everything scheduled. I was already cleared for surgery.
So I traveled to San Francisco just because it was recommendation of Olson, the specific doctor. And by the time I was there.
Why the specific doctor?
Because he doesn't have age limits or BMI requirements. No age limits.
Yeah. And that's part of Olson Kennedy in principle, from what I understand, opposes, what does she call it? It's not blockade exactly. Gatekeeping? Gatekeeping. Yeah, that's the word they use. Right. And those who oppose gatekeeping assume that more harm is done the longer the delay.
Yes.
Right.
Right. Which I wish I had been delayed because at 14, I was really, really impulsive and not thinking things through. You know what that's called? Being 14.
Yeah, that's exactly what that's called. Yes.
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Chapter 6: What is the significance of the lawsuit against Dr. Olson Kennedy?
Right.
And so they encouraged you to find another therapist? How did that play out? They helped me find another therapist. Okay. So you found another therapist. Why didn't you... Why did you find a different therapist?
Because the therapy that I was doing was so surface level and wasn't actually addressing any issues in my mind. It was just creating more issues. Why did you come to that conclusion? Because they kept affirming that I was somehow intrinsically male and that would solve all my problems. And then once I... match the outward appearance of a male and I didn't feel better, they had no answers for me.
I see. Okay, okay. And then you open up to... Okay, so then you start more deeply considering the potential effect of the sexual abuse.
Yes.
Then you talk to your parents. Then they help you find another therapist. Right. Okay. How does that therapist differ from the previous therapist?
That therapist barely spoke about my gender. We didn't even discuss it. We've talked about it maybe once. We went over it and I said, yeah, I've been trans identified. And then we just sort of only really dealt with my childhood trauma, my sexual assault.
How was your new therapist trained? What was their specialty? DBT and CBT were their therapies. PhD psychologist? Yes. Do you know where they were trained? I'm not sure. Okay, fine. Was it a PhD psychologist? Yeah, PhD psychologist. Okay, okay. And it was a more behavior therapy-oriented approach. Okay, so, and what did they do with you?
We went through dialectical behavioral therapy, and then I also did something called imaginal exposure therapy, which sort of helped me remember a lot of the gaps that I didn't... actually have filled in and then once we did that we just did a lot of general talk therapy.
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Chapter 7: What were the psychological impacts of Clementine's experience?
Yes. And he travels all over the world doing this, standing on sidewalks. Yeah. And often being harassed. Yeah. Yeah, he's quite the strange character. Yeah. Yeah. And he's obviously very committed to this. Okay, so you just happened to bump into him. Yeah. Okay, so tell that story.
Well, I'd seen his stuff online before, and I'd seen him be harassed and had coffee thrown at him, and I just wanted to tell him, like... As somebody directly impacted by puberty blockers, I really appreciated what he was doing. And then he just asked about my story and we sort of had a conversation about it.
And it got a lot more attention than I was expecting because I had had that conversation weeks before the lawsuit was supposed to come out. So I wasn't really supposed to be talking too much. So I tried to keep it vague when talking to him, but it got a lot of attention and it was nice to see that other people were so sympathetic to my story. Why do you think it got attention?
I mean, he gets some attention. He definitely gets attention on his own. But no, I think that's actually where I became aware of you. I think it was that event that triggered my reaching out to you initially. You know, I found out afterwards about the lawsuit and that it was also aimed at Olson Kennedy, who's someone I'm interested in for a variety of reasons.
But I think it was that Billboard Chris interview. So why do you think, What's your understanding of why that was so widely viewed and attended to?
I said Olson Kennedy's name, and that was right after that information had come out about her hiding the study. And it was also, I think, just because of my age at the time that these things happened, it was definitely jarring to hear.
Yeah. Right. Yes, well, you also... You're also quiet and soft-spoken and eminently reasonable in your public presentation. And so that probably didn't hurt, right? So, right. Okay, so the lawsuit. Are you mounting that? Are your parents... How is that progressing and how is it supported? It's expensive. How are you doing this?
I'm mounting that mostly, but I'm working with some awesome law firms and I'm working with Campbell Miller Payne and all they do is detransition lawsuits. They work with Prisha Mosley as well and other clients who are also detransitioners. So that's... kind of all they do. So they were able to help me out a lot. And it's mostly me mounting it. I mean, my parents are supportive.
They just don't really want to be public about it, which I totally understand. Right, right. And where are you with the lawsuit? We just started. It was filed in December. So things are... Oh, okay.
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Chapter 8: How does Clementine view her transition and de-transition now?
Right. Right. Well, that's a good definition of reconciliation. So as far as you're concerned now, how would you characterize your identity now?
I'm female and I'm happy to be female. I don't really try and think about
my identity because i think spending so long attributing everything in my life to something wrong with my identity or my physical being was what was driving a lot of my unhealthy behaviors okay all right well i think i think is there anything else that you want to bring up that we haven't covered is there anything you want to tell the audience let's say before we bring this to a close
Not specifically. Nothing beyond the fact that I don't really have a political agenda. I'm not doing this for—I've already been accused of doing this for attention, and that's the last of my wants. I just want to spread awareness about this, and I can't sit by and let people say that this doesn't happen when this is something that has truly, like, ruptured my life.
Okay, so if you were going to—and you are, in fact, doing this— What words do you have to say to someone who's 11, who's female, who's confused? So you can address people like that right now. You've been through the mill, let's say. Yeah. So what do you say to someone who's to you when you're 11?
Yeah.
What do you say?
I would say that there is nothing physically wrong with you. And anything that you think is physically wrong with you is because something external is making you feel like there's something wrong with you. That there is nothing you need to fix about your body. You're fine. You're perfect just the way you are. Anything that's making you feel differently is totally external.
Mm-hmm. And so it should be dealt with in that manner.
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