Jordan Peterson sits down with actor, podcaster, and commentator Russell Brand. They discuss turning to Christ, the benefits of orienting yourself toward a proper center (rather than centering yourself), how Donald Trump has shaken up the world stage, and what it means to cross the “edgelands” and make it back alive. Russell Brand is an English comedian, actor, activist, podcaster and commentator. He first established himself as a stand-up comedian and radio host before becoming a film actor. He presented for MTV UK and made appearances across media and TV (including a stint on “Big Brother”) throughout the 2000s. In 2008, he leapt from British to U.S. film acting, appearing in the hit film “Forgetting Sarah Marshall,” followed by numerous international successes. In 2013, Brand guest-edited an edition of the weekly publication the New Statesman, launching his interest and later career as a political activist and commentator. Over the years, Brand has changed in his thinking, from establishment advocate to establishment critic. His current podcast, “Stay Free,” sees Brand calling out major news, governments, and corporations for affronts to free speech, expression, and thought. This episode was filmed on January 10th, 2025. | Links | For Russell Brand: On X https://x.com/rustyrockets?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor On YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@RussellBrand On Rumble https://rumble.com/c/russellbrand
Chapter 1: Why did Russell Brand abandon hedonism?
If there is a Jesus, you're not Jesus. You are not at the center and neither is anybody else.
If you're not united by responsibility and by voluntary self-sacrifice, you will be united by power.
To let you know that the ego is still in here, I may have given up wanting to be Jesus Christ, but I'm going to give it as best a shot as I can give at being poor.
If you lose your individual relationship with divine guidance, the only thing that can possibly emerge is either chaos or despotic force.
Elon Musk, in a matter of posts, can disrupt, elevate new potential kings, desiccate them and remove them in a matter of moments.
Are you hopeful? And what are your concerns? So I had the opportunity today to once again sit down with Russell Brand. We've talked quite a bit, and we're getting to know each other quite well, which makes the discussions even more interesting and faster-paced. And we started out with a discussion of Christianity, and it's—what would you say—
the challenge that it poses in its fundamental elements to the doctrines of dissolution, so you could say that on the nihilistic side, and to the insistence that the only proper centralizing and unifying force is power. And so... Well, both of those are very powerful arguments.
One, the nihilistic argument is that everything is fundamentally meaningless and fragmented and that all unity of any sort is an illusion in this veil of tears, entropy-ridden veil of tears. And the contrary position to that on the side of power is that Only the naive believe that unifying forces are anything but the imposition of compulsion and power.
And that it's, as I said, it's terminally willfully blind to assume that there are any principles other than the Hobbesian battle of all against all. Well, is there an alternative to that? Well, the...
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Chapter 2: What are the implications of losing divine guidance?
And, you know, psychologists have cottoned onto that to some degree with their discussion of concepts like flow. Because if you've got your act together and you're oriented upward and you're conversing or you're engaged in an activity, that sense of unity with things does emerge, and that involves a lack of self-consciousness and the ability to focus in a very intense way.
And I think that's associated, by the way, there's an insistence in the Old Testament that the firstborn is to be sanctified to God. And I think what that means is that you imagine that your life is made out of episodes, which is how you would recount your day, let's say. First this happened, then this, and then there'd be a conclusion, then there'd be another event.
The question is, what attitude should you use to frame each new event? And the attitude that's put forward as optimized in the Sermon on the Mount is that when anything new begins, you want to reorient yourself to what's highest. So you think, well, how can I make of this opportunity the best possible event? How can I orient myself so that I would be participating in that?
And you do that every time there's a transformation of viewpoint. Yeah, that way you get to have your cake and eat it too, you might say.
I'm going to do it now. Seek thee first the kingdom of God. Seek thee first the kingdom of God. And I'm thinking, I'm in a conversation right now with Jordan Peterson, and how do I orient myself in this moment, in this situation? Now, it feels like amidst the flux that we've earlier addressed, or at least alluded to,
it appears that much of what you came to represent as you emerged in public life has proven to be true. It's not like the culture has just shifted. We aren't going to see so many pronouns in the bios. We're not going to see an escalation in gender-approving surgery. Hopefully that won't be concomitant with a lack of compassion for people, some people that are different and do identify differently.
indeed one of the things i'm most hopeful about jordan is that with the transitions of power that are taking place and the way that it appears to be bleeding or at least influencing outside of its political jurisdiction like we're seeing like how american power and in particular the influence of elon musk which is a truly global power.
And now when I said globalism like 18 months ago, I meant something different to what I might mean when I say globalism now, because it appears that Elon Musk in a matter of posts can disrupt, elevate new potential kings, desiccate them and remove them in a matter of moments. It's interesting to see how the old world will reorder itself on the basis of what's emergent now.
And the reason that I feel that Christianity is so significant is because it's significant with regards to every single issue. But now that we don't have as we did with the previous project, an attempt to completely control ideological life through politics. We're not going to be altering language wildly and radically. We're not at war with nature and old taxonomies.
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Chapter 3: How does Christianity challenge modern nihilism and power dynamics?
Yes, yes, yes, yes. The vicissitude. Now, I'm assuming that your experience as a clinical psychologist must be primarily interpersonal, although you will ultimately be dealing with large data sets.
But the reason I'm fascinated that you'd bring up play so early in our conversation is because when precisely looking at the posts of Elon Musk and Trump, Trump saying, you know, make Canada the 51st state. Yeah.
or we're going to reach all the way down to Panama, or we're having Greenland, or Elon Musk's sort of puckish pugnaciousness in dealing with his detractors on his own platform doesn't have that kind of haughtiness and piety that we remember, that kind of Pharisee-like certainty of the materialist, rationalist, neoliberal oligarchs who appear now to be being displaced.
This play, though, I wonder, Jordan, and this is not an assertion I'm making with regard to the previous listed individuals, I know our audience when it comes to Trump and Musk and stuff, but there isn't there mischief and play in the demonic also?
Now, the reason I like play, one, I'm a comedian, one, I enjoy liminal spaces and I enjoy the uncertainty that's a prerequisite of play, the true spirit of pioneering discovery that is encompassed within play. And I enjoy, actually, in fact, perhaps much of the Trump phenomena was this politician isn't talking like other politicians. Way back 2015 with Hillary Clinton, because you'd be in jail.
That moment, it's like, people don't say that. Up against the sort of school mom sort of... the sort of bluster and haughtiness of, you cunts! You know, sort of the English have bequeathed to the world abundantly that kind of sort of Victorian certainty, glance thee not at the piano leg, in case you feel a tumescent stirring in the loins. Total lack of joy in play.
Now, isn't it interesting to see that tool of play wielded now by the truly powerful, by Trump and Musk, It'll be interesting because, you know, their detractors continue. Like, you know, you might see a late night talk show host saying, see, I told you, I told you they're going to take over Canada. What's Elon Musk doing meddling in British politics?
But regardless of the, again, as a Christian, regardless of the, you know, Trump's not God, Musk's not God. They're all human beings that are going to come and go. And perhaps I've been thinking this about Elon Musk somewhat lately. Yeah. Is there a point where order of magnitude alters essence, i.e., is not Musk just a reiteration of Murdoch?
Because, you know, Tony Blair used to kowtow, bend the knee, go on holiday to ensure that Murdoch would support his new labor movement. It was understood that Thatcher required Murdoch. It was understood that if Murdoch unleashed an ocean of ink against an opposition party, the government would remain in power.
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Chapter 4: How does Russell Brand view the role of Christianity in today's world?
It is like Old Testament stuff. So my despair came when what I had built, what I had made for myself, my false idol, not, you know, like over my life, I've carved this thing, this image of Russell and look at it. It can be destroyed. It can be destroyed in a half hour.
One of the strange things I think about your situation is that You know, you were, God, maybe this is probably right, is that you were, just like Richard Dawkins is the exemplar of the atheistic enlightenment, you're kind of the success story of the hedonistic liberal, right? I mean, you got, like, assuming that would work, What you got, was it working?
Okay, so then the question is, well, if you get what you asked for, like if it's magically granted to you as it was in your case, what's the consequence of that? And you're outlining the consequence. So you said, well, there were practical consequences that it inverted on you.
But I'm also interested in the psychological consequences, you know, because the question, well, why not take pleasure-enhancing drugs like cocaine? Why not sleep with everyone who presents themselves as an opportunity? Like, that's an actual question, right?
This is a good question.
Generally, the reason is, well, generally the reason is, well, you can't, right? You just don't have the opportunity. But then let's assume that, well, you can. You actually can. I did it. Okay, okay. But why, can you be more specific about why that didn't work psychologically?
I can, but. but it's in the despair holds the key because I believe that was the communion and the communication that simultaneous with that, like while, you know, people were, you know, like friends and enemies were calling me and you among the friends, like, you know, let's say like, God, are you okay? This is crazy.
What was also happening is we were taking our son who was 12 weeks old to have his body carved almost in half, his heart taken out of his body. That was happening at the same time.
So it was like, well, for all of the sturm and drang and the meteorological operatics of this conjured and concocted storm, which no doubt I provided the raw material for by being the poster boy of liberal hedonism, it's sort of the Lord showed me this is meaningless. This is meaningless. And I'll show you it's meaningless. Look.
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