Darryl Cooper is the host of the "Martyr Made" podcast. www.martyrmade.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Chapter 1: What are Joe Rogan and Darryl Cooper discussing in this episode?
Showing by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. The guys today, I think, are the highest level fighters of all time. We running? Hey, Daryl. What's going on, man? How's it going? We were just talking UFC. Yeah.
I think we were talking about how exciting the Ankalayev and Pereira fight was, even though people didn't like it because it wasn't like some crazy result, a giant knockout like you get in most Pereira fights. But it was so technical. And Ankalayev just did a fantastic job of shutting down the scariest guy in the division.
Chapter 2: How do UFC fighters manage psychological pressure during fights?
Yeah. I just and the psychological aspect of it of just he made him back up and second guess himself.
Yeah.
And, you know, that's you can't just do that by being aggressive. You can't you know, you really got to get in there and you got to hurt him a little bit and you just have to put that on him. And it was it was amazing to watch. I thought it was a great fight.
Well, it was so interesting because the consequences of exchanging with Pereira are so high, but also Ancalayev. Ancalayev's knocked a lot of people out. We always look at Pereira's knockouts, but Ancalayev's knocked out some of the best guys in the division, and he only lost one time, and that was Paul Craig has the nastiest fucking triangle. It's so sneaky and so quick, and you don't expect it.
He's so high level off his back. And he caught him, I think, with like one second to go in the third round, a fight that he was losing. Yeah, he broke Jamal's arm or dislocated his elbow too.
He's one of those guys like Ryan Hall. It's like, you know, they're on the feet dancing around. It's like, you know, what are we really watching here kind of. But, man, as soon as they hit the ground.
Yeah, there's a giant disparity between his stand-up, which is good, his good stand-up. And the Bo Nickel fight was entirely stand-up. It was a good fight. He looked good on the feet. But you would never say, this is like an Israel Adesanya type character. He doesn't have that level of proficiency with striking. But God, when he gets on his back. You're in such danger.
Like, nobody else in the division. It's weird. Because most guys, you're on their back. You're not really worried about it. With Paul Craig, it's like everything has to be tight. Especially guys that size.
You don't really see it as often. No, you don't. Especially in an era when, you know, the off-your-back jiu-jitsu is kind of, I don't want to say, like, you know, they figured out the game on that yet. But, you know, it's not quite to that level. You still have your Craigs and Oliveros, people like that, who really are dangerous off their back. But it's not as common anymore, you know.
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Chapter 3: What is Darryl Cooper's perspective on historical conflicts?
And if they listen to your show, they will realize, like, It's one of the very best long-form history podcasts that's available online. It's fantastic. It's really good. So it's so unfortunate that there is these attack vectors that they could use to try to change perception of who you are.
But the fortunate aspect is there's so much of your work out there that anyone could just comb through, and you're not hearing that side of it from any of these people, any of these detractors.
No one's saying, listen, I listened to some of his stuff, and maybe he shouldn't have said what he said about Winston Churchill, but I think he was just being hyperbolic, and if you just listen to actually what he says about the whole conflict, you kind of get an understanding of who this guy is. And so there was a lot of resistance to having you on. But I was like, fuck that resistance.
I know what you actually do. And so that's why we're here.
Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah. You know, I mean, the Tucker interview was I could have been clearer in what I was saying.
I'm not going to like explain what you said because you were talking about what you say to Jocko. Right.
Yeah, that's how it originally came up. Because Jocko's wife's English, right? So Churchill's like a sacred figure in their pantheon. And so I said that, you know, maybe I'm being a little provocative here. I like to provoke Jocko with my Churchill takes or whatever. But that's only part of it.
I mean, I'm very critical of Churchill's role, in my opinion, in turning the German invasion of Poland into the Second World War, basically. You know, that, you know, it's... As I get older – I posted something on X today that somebody had posted a video. A drone is going toward a Ukrainian or a Russian truck or something and it hits it and it doesn't blow up. And it's like boom, boom.
And it tries to – it doesn't blow up. It doesn't blow up. And as I was watching that thing, I felt like when it didn't blow up and the video ended, I felt like this –
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Chapter 4: How does public opinion influence media narratives?
And what he sees is not particularly impressive, you know, which is often the case when, you know, you can have sympathy for and want to lift up, you know, the underclass in any society. But the reason you want to do that is because they're often living degraded lives and degraded circumstances. And so he gets an up-close look at this and he doesn't like what he sees.
And he says in Mein Kampf that it really caused him like a moral crisis, you know, an ideological crisis. He's like, are these the German people? Like, really? This is what we're talking about? And then he says, and this is the way he relates it. He says it was actually the key that unlocked everything else for him.
is that he would say he realized, we could say he came to believe, that yes, these German masses, they are in a sorry state right now. But the reason for that is that they're being manipulated by the Jews, by the Jewish press, by the Jews who own the theaters and put out the films and whatever else. They're being manipulated and corrupted by these people. And so for him, it became, I think...
You know, he has he had a lot of the same explanations and reasons you would hear from any anti-Semite then or now, you know, banking and whatever. All those things were like in there. But I think the thing that gave it emotional valence for him is that his anti-Semitism was what allowed him to love Trump.
The German people, you know, like it was like the only way for him that he could get around the revulsion he was feeling and actually being up close with the German underclasses. You know, he excused their faults by blaming by blaming Jews. And so it his his sense of love for his people. And I mean, look, Hitler is one of those guys.
I noticed this when I was reading all the Jim Jones books and stuff, which I think I read all probably all of Hitler. They're not very good. You know, some of them are interesting, like they're good reads, but you can't help but notice, especially after you've read several of the books, that the authors just cannot help but be like cynical and turn it into a polemic on every page.
Like even the thing Jim Jones or Hitler wrote. Did as a child. They have like negative editorializing to it and everything. And it's like, you know, it really kind of it's a lot of them are still good books. You know, you read like the most recent sort of great Hitler biography by Ian Kershaw. It's a great book. He's a good historian, an excellent writer.
And, you know, you have to learn to kind of see through that polemic a little bit. And then you have, you know, a good history on your hands.
It's almost like it's an obligation. If you're going to cover a horrific figure, you have to look at things that way. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
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Chapter 5: What are the historical roots of anti-Semitism according to Cooper?
And so these are just nuances that become pretty obvious when you just remind yourself. You're just talking about people. They're just people. I mean the Germans were a sophisticated, advanced political and cultural place. They didn't suddenly turn into demons for 12 years and then go back to being the nice normal Germans that we know now.
Like these things happen the same way every other historical event ends up happening, which very often is not – what you find is it's not – it's not so much is not really like the result of a plot or a plan or anything. People are often just reacting. And when you see this with the Bolshevik revolution in Russia, you see it with the Israel-Palestine situation, right?
In those two situations, like the means that the Bolsheviks and the Zionists used to establish themselves and create their state and like sort of get their foothold, the means that they used were so violent and so over the top that it came to define in a lot of ways the subsequent history of those countries.
If you look at like Stalin's purges in the 30s and a lot of the stuff that was going on during his reign, it was really that like – They had pissed so many people off and done so many terrible things to take power. And that was really like that was Lenin's philosophy is, again, just, you know, take it up to 11 and go. And as long as we win, people get over it.
But all of a sudden, when you've killed all these people and done all these terrible things, you look around the country and you see a lot of dangerous people who probably don't like you, even if they're not saying it right now. And you start to get a little paranoid and It becomes kind of the definition of how your state works.
I mean Israel, one of the things I really tried to get into in the early part of that series especially is that the Zionist project – the more I think about it, this is kind of a theme in so many of my podcasts. It started out as an idealistic venture. It started out as something – you have these people. who are in really like kind of a unique situation.
Maybe like the Roma, the gypsies are like the only other group of people you can really point to of like a widespread transnational group of people who do have a sort of cohesive identity, but they don't have a homeland. They're just living in other people's countries. And, you know, I think the lesson from World War II and much of the 20th century probably is
It's kind of the opposite of the one that people have taken from World War II, which is nationalism is bad and it's dangerous and bad things happen when people start to think that way. I think the real lesson from World War II is – or from what happened to the Jews specifically is everybody needs a country.
You know, you need to have a country that is looking after you and looking after your interests because living in other people's countries, it can go well for a long time. But, you know, it's not just the Jews, like minorities in general, like, you know, bad things happen over time. You know, minorities are just easily scapegoated.
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Chapter 6: How did World War I impact the rise of the Nazis?
Everyone is Twitter before Elon bought it. It's just... it's a dangerous place for freedom. And that's ultimately what America has to say that we stand for above all. This is the place. If there's a place on earth where you can be free, this has got to be that place. This is what we came here for. It's where the founding fathers, this is what they were trying to do.
With all the flaws and all the terrible things that took place here, yes, absolutely. Land acknowledgements, hallelujah. But at the end of the day, This place is supposed to represent freedom. But freedom can be manipulated. And you can use your empathy and they can use it against you.
And unfortunately, you have to be aware that there's nefarious forces that are involved in all areas of society where enormous amounts of money can be transferred. And that's how you have to look at it. This is ultimately about money.
And whether it's about money, bringing in people for cheap labor, which I think is fucked, because I think if you're in America, if you're here, if you're here, we're going to call you an American. You should get paid what a fucking American gets paid. You should get health coverage. You should get everything.
Shouldn't be able to like get people just because they walked over here and you get them to work for slave wages. That's ridiculous. That's insane. That's anti-American.
I mean, I'll hold you up there. It might be like anti-American ideals, but that's the history of America right there.
It is.
That's the whole history of America.
It's true. It's true. And that's the dirty little secret of construction sites.
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Chapter 7: How do immigration dynamics shape national identity?
But that love, I mean it's very – I mean it's like the – I was reading an article a while back about the neurochemical oxytocin. And it's the chemical that basically makes sure that a mammal mother doesn't eat her baby when she gets hungry. In us, it takes the form of increasing trust and empathy and so forth.
But they've also done research and found that it increases trust and empathy and all those things for your in-group. But because you're more protective of them, like feeling that way, it actually increases distrust toward anybody considered like in the out group. And so it's like – it makes you love your child more and makes you hate like the foreigner more or something like that.
And a lot of things are like that where it's really your virtues that get hijacked. I mean if you think of – I mean, yeah, you were talking about Jonestown. I mean, that story sucked me in so much. Part of the reason for that is because I just got obsessed with it. But part of it is that the U.S.
authorities found like 1,000 hours of recordings at the Jonestown site after the massacre, and they're all available online. And it's like sermons of his. It's them just having meetings in the middle of the night. It's just all kinds of different things. Well, for like three or four months, I had that in my headphones for like –
At the time, I was working overseas when I worked for the Department of Defense and I was working by myself overseas. And so I'd be working and I'd have my headphones on eight hours a day. I'm listening to Jim Jones. Oh, my God. I was dreaming about him for real.
But through that experience, what I found is I and even to this day, like I say, I will still say it even after I'm separated from it's all over is I. I really sympathize with those people. The same way I sympathize with like – and I get into this in the series too.
Like the radical movements that emerged out of the civil rights struggle, the Black Panthers and whatnot who – they went down a dark road. But when you put yourself in their shoes – Because say what you want about – like if Jim Jones – just like for people out there who don't know. I mean go listen to the podcast.
But Jim Jones was a guy who in like 19 – I think 53 is when he started his first church in Indianapolis. And it's a totally open like mixed-race church in Indianapolis. And he and his congregation are going out. And getting – putting pressure on businesses to like start serving – to desegregate and start serving African-American customers and stuff.
This is a couple of years before Martin Luther King in Birmingham or whatever. He was like out front on this, right? And he was – he would – his wife would – They adopted the first – they were the first white family to adopt an African-American child in the state of Indiana.
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Chapter 8: What is the history of the American labor movement?
story to tell, and this is really the angle I took on it, is they're a microcosm of the whole movement. In the mid-50s, they're idealistic. They're in it for the right reasons. They truly believe in what they're doing. They encounter resistance from political resistance, social resistance, and as that resistance stiffens and then gets really serious when you
You've got people coming into the church who worked for a Modesto TV station telling them that, hey, I'm coming to you because I was just approached by the FBI asking me to come spy on you. So I don't know what's up there, but you must be doing something right. So you join them. You got that kind of stuff going on.
And these people get radicalized and then they turn violent and out of paranoia and drugs was a big part of it. They lose their shit. What drugs are they doing? Well, the drugs were not – they were still done sometimes. But like they weren't really technically allowed for like the members themselves.
But Jim Jones was on – he was basically for the last 10 years of his life, it was amphetamines when you get up, barbiturates to go to sleep. And it was every day for 10 years. Which is not the best for perspective. No, no. And it's like that's the thing with Adolf Hitler too. You keep yourself going that way. Yeah.
Somebody who – I had read a little bit about the effects because of the Jonestown story. I read a fair amount about the effects of long-term amphetamine use, the paranoia and mania that it can result. And so as I was getting up to the last episode –
I asked one of my buddies who he was a police officer in SoCal if he had any ways, if he could figure out, get me some like police reports that were incidents where there was like usually like a husband and father who had taken his family hostage. And specifically, if he was like hopped up on methamphetamines that resulted in a murder suicide. And he got me a big stack of these things.
I don't know where he got them or if he was supposed to, but like he got these for me and I was able to read through them. And about half of them, they ended in a murder-suicide. The other half, like some of them, the guy got shot by the cops. Some of them he gave up. But about half of them ended in murder-suicide.
And as I just read through these just again and again and again, I mean it became very obvious. Like this is what happened except at a larger scale in Jonestown. You know, it's hard for people to kind of accept when you're talking about somebody like Jim Jones, who was like a raving lunatic by the end. But he loved his people like he actually did.
And people say, well, if he loved them, that's not possible. How could he do that? That's those are people who have never been around like domestic violence before. It's very complicated. You know, you can have husbands who are absolute monsters to their children and their wife. But they still love him. And it's weird.
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