Morning Brew Daily
James Clear Explains How to Set Goals and Instill Habits for 2025
Wed, 25 Dec 2024
Episode 482: Merry Christmas! Neal and Toby speak with James Clear who wrote the book ‘Atomic Habits’ on how to set and accomplish your biggest goals for 2025. Subscribe to Morning Brew Daily for more of the news you need to start your day. Share the show with a friend, and leave us a review on your favorite podcast app. Listen to Morning Brew Daily Here: https://link.chtbl.com/MBD Watch Morning Brew Daily Here: https://www.youtube.com/@MorningBrewDailyShow Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Chapter 1: What are the benefits of setting New Year's resolutions?
Yeah, it's totally fine. You know, there actually is some research that shows that I think they call it like the fresh start effect, but basically beginning of the day, beginning of the week, beginning of the year, beginning of the month. Anytime that you kind of have this feeling of rebirth or starting anew, there is a little bit of a rise in motivation. So it's a natural thing.
I mean, you know, we all do it because we're all kind of thinking about how can my next year be better than my last year? And, you know, what am I hoping to achieve and so on? So it's a very natural thing. I don't think there's anything wrong with using that momentum or using that motivation for you.
There also isn't any reason to wait if you feel like making a change earlier in the year or at a different time. There's nothing special about waiting until January, but certainly momentum is a powerful thing. And if you feel like you have some now, then go ahead and take advantage of it.
Speaking of last year, last December you posted this thought starter to your newsletter readers. It's one year from now, the habit you were hoping to build during the year didn't stick. What is the most likely reason it failed? Why is predicting the reason a habit failed in the future worth thinking about in the present now?
Well, there are many examples of this kind of thing in business and in life. There's failure premortem, as they call it. Basically, it's so unlikely that you will stick to a habit and just do it forever. Everyone is going to fall off course at some point, and there's going to be some interruption of life that weasels its way in.
Maybe it's your kids get sick or you have to travel for work or you need to do something for your parents or whatever it is. But we all have things that come up. And when your habits fall off track, it's helpful to have a plan for how you how you're going to get back on track quickly.
And I think actually, as I have studied more and more people who build habits and looked at people who are kind of top performers, so to speak, in their particular domain, these people are human just like everyone else, right? They make mistakes and they fall off course. But one pattern that they do tend to share is they get back on track quickly.
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Chapter 2: How can you predict why a habit might fail?
And if the reclaiming of your habit is fast, the breaking of it doesn't matter that much. So you get to the end of the year and it's just a little blip on the radar where you slipped up two or three times. So for all of those reasons, it's very helpful. And of course, I think we all know that having some kind of consistency has power.
And so if you can get back on track quickly, then you can often get the results you want without needing to be perfect.
Is the process of getting back on track with your habits the same as starting out in the first place? Or is it kind of like riding a bike where you can pick it up a little easier?
Yeah, that's a good question. You know, I think broadly we could break a habit into two different kind of core problems. The first problem is getting started and the second problem is sticking with it. Now, at some level, what does it mean to stick with something? Well, it basically means that you get started each day. So we could say ultimately this boils down to being good at starting.
And if you can just do that day in and day out, then you are consistent. And there are a variety of things that you can do to make starting easier. You can optimize your environment. You can scale the habit down to make it easier to get going. There are ways to track progress and kind of try to build up a feeling momentum. And we can talk about all that stuff in more detail if you want. But
You do in the beginning, I think, need to have a couple things in mind that maybe you don't need to worry about as much once you're already going with a habit or once you're picking up a habit that you've done consistently. And I would say two of the core things to think about when you're trying to build a habit for the first time. The first one is, what would this look like if it was fun?
You know, what would it look like if it was fun to meditate every day? What would it look like if I enjoyed exercising? What would it look like if it was fun for me to write? And, you know, there are not a thousand ways to do everything in life, but there's almost always more than one way. And it's worth it to think about what is the version of this habit that I am most genuinely excited about.
You know, the most common New Year's resolution is to do some form of exercise. And I kind of feel like a lot of people go to the gym in January just because they feel like they should be going to the gym or like society wants them to go to the gym. And you should choose the version of that habit that's most compelling to you. You know, yoga, rock climbing, kayaking, go for a run.
Like we could come up with a very long list of ways to live an active life. And you should choose the version of that that's most appealing to you. So I think it's worth leaning against this question of what would this look like if it was fun for me? That's a really good place to start.
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Chapter 3: What are effective strategies for building lasting habits?
Speaking of stuff that is fun for me, I'm going to be selfish here for a second and use you while we have you. I want to get better at golf. Neil does as well, I can tell in his face. But I live in New York City. How would you set up kind of a get better at golf system? What should step one be for us?
Yeah, that's an interesting question. I mean, I think you have to play with or sit with the question of like, how good can you get at golf if you're not on a golf course? And so at some point, this might come down to prioritizing your time and figuring out how to actually get out to a course more consistently. But assuming that that's not possible and you are going to be in the city more.
You got to come up with like a list of all the things that you could potentially do, whether it's, you know, getting to a simulator or installing some kind of putting green in your apartment or whatever it is. And then I think there are a lot of once you figure out what the actual behavior is going to be, there are a lot of things you can do to optimize it.
So, like, let's take the putting green in the apartment. I had one reader who he would go to a he would go to his guitar lessons and he would practice and play with his instructor. And then he'd go home and he wouldn't really do anything throughout the week. And they go back the next week and start to be like, you didn't practice. You're not going to get better at this. And
So he took his guitar stand and put it in the middle of the living room where he'd pass it 30 times a day. And now he's much more likely to play. So that's one simple example of environment design. And we could think about doing the same sort of thing for golf. If you're only practicing when you're going to see an instructor, you might improve a little bit.
But if you're not going every day or practicing every day, it's going to be hard to really get better. So making it more obvious is one example.
And then I kind of think given the environmental constraints of this one, it's going to come down to being creative and figuring out, like, how can you tack on around a golf to every work trip or how can you tack on around a golf to every time that you like leave the city to visit your family?
Basically, any time that you're getting out to somewhere where it's more likely to to be able to actually get onto a course.
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Chapter 4: How can you make habits enjoyable and sustainable?
James, you have no idea how much ammunition you're providing me right now. Listen, James Clear told me I have to go practice golf, Mom. I'm so sorry that I'm home for Christmas and I'm hitting the course. So thank you for all that. That was actually very enlightening as well. Sure.
Sticking in the sports category, my old soccer coach always used to say, he was British, so this is my British accent, Toby, do you love to win or do you hate to lose? I never had a great answer for it, so I'm turning it over to you. What is a more effective motivator, positive or negative reinforcement?
That's interesting. Do you love to win or do you hate to lose? Okay, so there are two thoughts that come to mind. The last part of your question, what is the more effective motivator? They are both effective motivators. I find that in the long run, it is often better to have some kind of positive motivation to pull you forward.
In the short run, negative consequences for sure will shape your behavior. And, you know, you touch a hot stove once and burn yourself. You don't do it for most of the rest of your life unless it's an accident. So like that negative consequence certainly has shaped your behavior. And we can think of many examples of that throughout life.
However, there is an interesting strategic piece to this, which is. In some cases, you can actually win by avoiding loss better than you can by chasing victory. So the classic example of this is if you're playing tennis.
At the amateur level, if you're playing tennis in high school or against somebody in your neighborhood or something like that, almost always the way to win that match is to just have fewer unforced errors. Just keep the ball in play. Keep going until your opponent makes a mistake. And so in that case, avoiding failure is actually the best path to win.
However, at the high level, if you're playing in your Roger Federer or Serena Williams or something, the pros have to play to win. They can't play to not lose because their opponent will keep the ball in play all day long. And so I think it's worth asking yourself, at what level am I playing? And what am I actually working on here?
In a lot of cases, you can make a great deal of progress by avoiding mistakes. But when you're at the top of your field, you often have to play to win. And so there's the strategic side of this, but then there's also the... question of like, do positive reinforcements or negative reinforcements work? The answer is yes. But I think positive is better in the long run.
Sorry to take us off Toby's coaching personal coaching track, but account of the accountability partners are another popular mechanism for forming a habit where you rely on the peer pressure of someone else to keep you on track. Do you believe in accountability partners and is there ever a world in which they could become a crutch in a bad way? Hmm.
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Chapter 5: What role do accountability partners play in achieving goals?
Chapter 6: Is positive or negative reinforcement more effective?
Yeah, well, there are two things that I wish I would have either emphasized more or added. And actually, we've touched on both of them briefly. So the first thing that I didn't write about that I wish I would have is what would your habits look like if they were fun? And finding the version of the habit that is most genuinely appealing to you.
In a lot of ways, I feel like that is like maybe the most enormous hurdle to cross, because if you're genuinely interested in a habit, there are like endless ways to improve it. But if you're not actually interested, you're just kind of forcing the issue or making yourself do it. Even the obvious improvements are going to feel like a chore. So that's the first thing.
The second thing is I talked about the influence of family and friends on your habits and how that can kind of shape things. But I think I undersold the importance of social environment. If you're if you look at habits that really last, like in some cases, years or even decades, like let's say I walk outside my home in the summer and I see my neighbor mowing their grass.
I might think, oh, I need to cut the grass, too. And like you'll stick to that habit of mowing your lawn for five, 10, 30 years, however long you live in the house. And like we wish we had that level of consistency with a lot of our other habits. And it's like, why do you do it?
Partially you do it because it feels good to have a clean lawn, but mostly it feels good to have a clean lawn because you don't be judged by the people in the neighborhood for being the sloppy one. And so it's actually the social expectation, the social norm for what it means to be a neighbor on your street that helps get that habit to stick.
And so many of our habits are socially driven like that. So those are the two things that I wish I would have emphasized more.
So maybe if my goal is to read a lot this year, the first thing I should do is create a Goodreads account. Because then my entire reading history will be online, and I'll be judged by my peers about whether I hit my goal or not.
Sure. So that's one way to do it. Picking two friends that are also interested in reading and starting a book club is another way to do it. You don't even have to start one. You could just join one that's already going. There are tons of ways to be part of that. Start browsing subreddits with people who love books and just like engage there and leave comments.
And then now you're kind of like surrounded by other people who are reading and feel like you have a little bit of momentum. There are many ways to do it. But the core idea is like, how can I build connection with people who already have the habits I want to have?
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Chapter 7: How does your social environment influence your habits?
Like James Clear can be like that, too. And I also feel like it's a useful handicap. You know, like I always think. I don't have anything to hide behind. It's just the ideas. They better be good, because otherwise people are going to stop paying attention. We'll be back with more James Clear right after this break.
You have talked to lots of different Fortune 500 companies, Capital One, Cisco, GE, Honda. The list goes on. What do these Fortune 500 companies want to know? What are they looking for from you, the quote-unquote habit guy?
They're looking for the same thing everybody else is looking for, which is consistency. Most of the time, they know the things that they want their team to do. They're just trying to get them to do them more frequently. I think we all could do this.
If you were going to just do a classic 80-20 analysis on your job, you're going to write down everything that you do, and then we're going to draw a line at the top 20%, and you're not allowed to do the bottom 80% of tasks. But If you really crush it on the top 20%, if you just totally knock it out of the park, you probably still have a job because those are the things that really move the needle.
We all sort of implicitly know what some of those things are. And all these companies are the same way. They know what really matters. And so what they're trying to do is to get their team. I'll speak to 800 salespeople or their top 300 executives or something like that. They're trying to get people to direct their attention towards those things more and to do them more consistently.
Yeah. Is setting goals for others like you would do in a business environment similar to setting goals for yourself, or is there a different calculus that you would need to take?
At some root level, it is the same, but I do think there are some meaningful differences. The primary difference is that when you set goals for yourself, you're the one who's setting them and you're the one who's in control.
In business, often as the executive or as the leader or whatever, you're setting goals for a bunch of other people who didn't choose that goal and then are asked to fall through on it. And that often does not go well because people want to be in control of their time and attention and energy and so on.
I think the key in either case is that it's really helpful to be able to draw a through line from the goal that you're asking people to follow. to the type of person that you're asking them to be and how it serves them. So in the individual case, I call this identity based habits. And the core idea is that you don't start by asking yourself, what do I wish to achieve?
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Chapter 8: What insights has James Clear gained since writing 'Atomic Habits'?
He's trying to start something. All right, James, you are pretty smart, but I assume that not all of your ideas just kind of sprang out of your head one day. Who are some of the people, writers, thinkers that have been a source of inspiration for you?
Oh, man, there are literally hundreds. I actually keep a list of sources on my website. So if you go to jamesclare.com slash thanks, it's like a thank you page to all the people that have been various inspirations and sources of ideas to me. I am...
would be impossible to list everybody there you know hundreds of sources and atomic habits alone and i feel like i'm always looking i don't even really read books anymore i kind of like read chapters or read sentences like i'm just like looking for a little bit of insight oh i really like how that was phrased or oh i really like how the way that they unpack that maybe i can you know like take that and make it my own or use that in some way
So pretty much everything that I share, two things are true. The first is pretty much everything is a reminder to myself. So like I struggle with all this stuff, too. And it's just a way of me trying to pull myself back to center. And then the second thing is. Almost nothing that I share is something that I originally thought of.
I feel like my value is that I try to put it in a way that is easy to understand and easy to apply, but the ideas almost all originated elsewhere. And I think we have this somewhat incorrect view of creativity, that creativity is origination, that it is like the creation of something from nothing. But actually, I think almost every form of creativity is synthesis.
It is the connecting of ideas that were previously unconnected. It is the sharing of something that has already been out there, but has never quite been put that way or has never quite been delivered in that fashion.
And that I feel like is my job is to come across the very best ideas I can and then to deliver them in a way where you think, you know what, I always have kind of felt that, but I just didn't have the way to the language for it. Or I've always believed that or seen that in my life, too, but I've never heard it put that way.
And if I can do that and try to deliver ideas in a more useful or more actionable or practical fashion, then I feel like that is a lot of value. And I'm happy to play that role and other people can play different roles.
That's our job, too, actually, at Morning Brew. We are synthesizers of information, so definitely preaching to the choir there. All right, I'm sure for our final question of the day, there's someone out there right now who is debating whether to follow through on their newly minted New Year's resolution. Maybe they're deciding whether to go to the gym right now.
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