Garrett Neiman, serial nonprofit entrepreneur, activist, founding CEO of CollegeSpring, co-creator of Liberation Ventures, and Senior Fellow at Prosperity Now, walks listeners through the issues of race and wealth discussed in his book, "RICH WHITE MEN: What It Takes to Uproot the Old Boys’ Club and Transform America", including the relationship between luck and power, "compounding unearned advantage", how America is a country of opposites on social issues, figuring out exactly how much is enough, and the "7 generations principle" of leaving a legacy.
Legacy means a lot of things to a lot of people. To some, it's lasting integrity. It's building and maintaining a history of greatness. It's making an impact on people and community. For others, it's dependable security and assurance in an uncertain time. To us, it's all of that and more. It's a mindset, a brother and sisterhood of hardworking people dedicated to doing the right
Let's talk legacy.
Welcome to Let's Talk Legacy. I'm your host, Gary Michaels. Today, our guest is awesome. Garrett Neiman is a serial nonprofit entrepreneur, an activist, founding CEO at College Spring, co-creator of Liberation Ventures, and senior fellow at Prosperity Now. He is also the author of the new book, Rich White Men, What It Takes to Uproot the Old Boys Club and Transform America. So welcome to the show.
I appreciate it, Gary. Thank you so much for having me. Let's dig right into some questions and have a really healthy conversation here. We're going to talk about a few things today that for many of our listeners play major roles in shaping a legacy, which is what our show's about. And those are race and wealth.
You're dedicated your career to helping the rich give their money away to social justice causes. But I want to start with the hard question a lot of listeners might be thinking. You are a successful white man. So what qualifies you to speak objectively on things like inequity and privilege? And give us your background.
Yeah, absolutely. Happy to share a little bit of my journey. And I think the way I think about it is that really none of us are positioned to objectively speak about really anything, including social justice issues, that I think what I can offer is my own lived experience and path and take what feels helpful or useful in your own life and let the rest go.
The connection to legacy for me runs pretty deep because I grew up in Orange County, California, the white affluent suburb. But then when I was six, my younger brother died in an accident, completely turned my family's whole life upside down. And I think going through that experience, it just really helped me see how life can be short and fragile.
Basically, as long as I can remember, I've tried to live a life that's meaningful and aligned with values and so forth. So for me, the main way that manifested is entering the nonprofit sector. My sister is adopted from China. I raised money for her former orphanage when I was in high school. And then
When I went to college at Stanford, I started College Spring, which is a national college access nonprofit, helping low-income students of color prepare for the SATs and become the first in their families to go to college. And, you know, we served about 20,000 students during my tenure, raised $15 million, got recognized by the Obama White House. So on the one hand, it was this big success.
But on the other hand, that decade of work really helped me see how Programs like ours, frankly, were really ill-equipped to address the deep systemic barriers that students of color and high poverty communities faced. And so I've been on a journey since to really try to understand the root causes of inequality, how they can be addressed. And also, you know, what is my role in the work?
as a white man, and particularly in a straight, able-bodied white man who grew up in a wealthy family and attended private schools, that I think there's a real desire among many people who share my background to contribute. But I think there's really, particularly in this moment, a lack of clarity about what that role can look like.
So you say that people at the top, often rich white men, too often are preserving their wealth over generations using what you call compounding unearned advantage. So what is compounding unearned advantage?
Unearned advantage is simply a way of saying that, you know, those of us who have advantaged identity markers, like growing up in a wealthy family or growing up white, growing up male and so forth, that does lead to some unearned advantages in our lives. And compounding unearned advantage is a way of talking about how
when those show up sequentially through our experiences, it's a way that those advantages actually compound. You know, that there's studies that show that white teachers believe white students are higher potential. There's evidence now that parents Google more often, is my son gifted than is my daughter gifted?
And certainly, you know, if you go to school in an affluent community, teachers have more time to advocate for their students. In affluent families, parents have more time to advocate for their children. You know, so there's all these ways where these seemingly subtle compounding under an advantage is really a way of talking to folks who understand how compound interest works.
You know, that if a slightly higher annual return adds up to a lot exponentially over time, the same thing can be true for our identity based under an advantages that seemingly small under an advantages can really shift trajectories and produce large societal disparities.
What exactly is the problem with someone wanting to preserve their wealth for future generations, especially within their own family?
Yeah, it's a really good question. And I think in a certain sense, there isn't a problem. And I think in particular, it's very rational, the way that our society is currently structured, that in high inequality societies, there's a real hunger to want to cling to whatever rung you're on.
Like that if you imagine just sort of a ladder, you know, that in a high inequality society, the gaps between the rungs are pretty large, that there's major differences in quality of life if you fall down a rung on the ladder. And In America, we don't have too much of a safety net. So if you're at the very bottom of that ladder and let go, you don't land in a safety net.
You land in something that's more like a fiery pit, which nobody wants. The challenge with that is that from a societal perspective, that leads to a system that basically stays the way it is. And so what I've become interested in What does it look like to produce a society where there's less inequality and we don't have to be so anxious and scared about where exactly we fall on the ladder?
I think about things like the college admissions craziness these days to try to get into an elite university. You know, that only happens in a society where, you know, going to Stanford or Harvard or Yale means you could become a billionaire and a society where going graduating from community college or a state university doesn't guarantee a living wage.
You know, that's where those high stakes come from. You know, so what does it look like to protect ourselves and our families against risks of the society as it is, but also how do we. protect against the risks of a society that stays like it is.
What would that look like for you if the United States invested in these people more than they are now? For you could say, we actually are a society that does do this.
Yeah. So I think there's different ways of looking at this. But I think at a very basic level, I think about how many Einsteins, how many Steve Jobs are out there who our society is not investing in. And if you're in a situation where you're focused on
your day to day survival, you know, just trying to pay your red check or, you know, pay the bills, you know, that you're not going to be able to invest in your your talents and gifts and unique capabilities and skills. And so, you know, what does it look like to create a society that offers that for more people?
And I think that what I'm very interested in is what does it look like to invest in every community in America so that every person can have opportunities like I had growing up?
What would be some of those opportunities? What does that look like for the government to really give more?
The approach I've become particularly interested in, just because I think it's simple, is direct cash transfers to folks. And that can be
on an income basis you know that you may have come across ideas like a universal basic income you know other folks have talked about things like a universal basic capital or things like baby bonds that are basically a a trust fund that matures over a low wealth child's lifetime and enables them to pay for college or a down payment or whatever it may be that wealth inequality is so high uh in american society that we're leaving a lot on the table
by, you know, enabling things to continue down that path. So just as one concrete example, you know, Larry Page and Sergey Brin, the co-founders of Google, have a combined wealth of about $200 billion. Larry and Sergey have enough money to create an endowment that provides $100,000 guaranteed income to everyone in San Francisco who lives in poverty.
Plus, they have enough money to provide a million dollars in reparations to every black family that's been locked out of intergenerational wealth in San Francisco, and they would have something like $70 billion left over at the end of that. You know, whether or not you agree with those specific policies, we have a lot of resources locked up in vaults of the very, very few.
And if those resources were invested in marginalized communities that have historically been locked out of wealth building opportunities, that would make an enormous difference. And there's efforts now like the Mayors for a Guaranteed Income that I think over 100 mayors have signed on to now to run these pilots in their communities. And what they're finding is
When people who don't have wealth have an extra $500 a month, $1,000 a month, they're able to make better decisions, decisions that better suit them for the long term. The same way that a cash-strapped business is going to have a hard time focusing for the long term, the same thing is true for families that don't have wealth. Families that get these stipends are able to do things like
take a day off and interview for another job that pays better and is a better fit for their skills or, you know, to invest in continuing education or whatever it may be, that there's all of these different opportunities that are available to folks once they're not quite so cast out.
Got it. That's big. Let's talk a little bit about what you kind of explain as an interesting relationship between luck and power. Can you talk to that a little bit?
This was one of the more interesting aspects of my journey into this is that I think luck is often, maybe not always, but I think most of the time, good luck has something to do with a powerful person making a decision that benefits us. Things that felt like serendipity, there really is a component of power attached to it. So what's your definition of luck?
For the most part, I think luck is when a powerful person, usually a rich white man, makes a decision that benefits us.
This is my definition. I'd like to hear what your thoughts are on it. Luck is where preparation meets opportunity. Do you think that just because a person maybe is at a lower economic level, a lower status level, they should still be able to be given privileges if they haven't put the work in, the preparation? Are they still entitled? Because that's not healthy for the society either.
Yeah, absolutely. It's a really good question. And I like your definition of luck. And maybe it's even better than my definition. Actually, I've heard this one before. And I think, yes, the preparation matters. And that preparation doesn't necessarily yield the same things for everybody. And I think about You know, my great grandfather, for example, who immigrated to the U.S.
to escape persecution as a Jew from the Russian czar. You know, and he he worked in the steel mills in Ohio as a 12 year old, you know, eventually found his way to starting a business. He ended up. buying and running a pickle plant that was the family's business that eventually led to real estate being acquired that provided the foundation of wealth for my family.
So he's somebody who, when you talk about preparation meets opportunity, worked incredibly hard, incredibly intentionally to access opportunity. And there's this complexity where the real estate he bought, for example, was in redline communities that were only available
uh to white folks you know so it's this weird thing where for me to talk as if my great-grandfather who worked in the steel mills as a 12 year old you know to say that oh you know like he is so privileged i mean he he faced a lot of obstacles um you know but then it's still the case that you know that that hard work and resourcefulness yielded something different for him uh than it might have for somebody else and that's that's the big complexity
And the riddle we have in our society is that it really is both that are showing up in the outcomes people get.
That makes sense. Now, surely the problem can't be exclusively limited to white men. There must be some examples of wealthy women using compounding unearned advantage or wealthy individuals of other races. What does the research show? Do you have any statistics that can illustrate the imbalance a little bit? Yeah.
And like we were talking about earlier, like it's some of both here. Like, I don't want to say that, you know, there aren't any wealthy white women who, you know, are quite advantaged in our system.
And, you know, like even for me is, you know, like as a Jewish person, you know, that like there's still anti-Semitism in the US, you know, so like you for me, you know, that it's not that I'm the most advantaged person in all of America. You know, I think the way I've come to see it is, you know, that I can acknowledge that
overall, the system favors me, even if it doesn't favor me absolutely in every situation, more than any other person on the planet. And so very wealthy white women are in that category of highly advantaged folks. I chose to talk about wealthy white men in my work because I feel like there's not a lot of wealthy white men who are willing to take that on. And
And what I found across differences is that if you're a wealthy white woman, you still don't necessarily feel safe going for a run at night. Or if you're a wealthy black man, you still might be afraid that a cop is going to pull you over and something's going to happen to you.
So there's this complexity where even folks who are advantaged in a number of ways, if you're missing even one of those advantaged identity markers, it's going to impact your experience a lot. So how do we acknowledge that?
Now, we've talked a little bit about these two separate issues here, race and gender and inequity in it. Is one posing a larger challenge than the other? It's a really good question.
I think the best way I can think of how to describe it is, you know, when you look at who... You know, who holds wealth and power in our society? You're going to see a lot more a lot more white women in those positions than black folks, for example. And then also, when you look at people's political preferences, it's really interesting that if if you think of.
you know, conservatives and progressive as, you know, not saying that one is better than the other, but that if progressive is about, you know, changing society dramatically, you know, and conservative is about conserving society the way it is, you know, it's interesting that, you know, white men as a group, not everybody, but white men as a group are the most politically conservative.
Black women are the most politically progressive, you know, so I think there's something about, you know, how people... really vote in ways that suggest that in order for people from different groups to feel like they can succeed in America, there's different viewpoints about how much society needs to change. Is there one of these you think that's moving quicker and gaining momentum?
It's so complicated because there's so much moving forward and backwards all the time. And we're in a very strange time in America. When you look at racial justice, for example, the nullification of race-based affirmative action as a big step backward. On the gender front, the Roe versus Wade is seen by many as a big step backward. And then you have this bizarre...
counter-reality where policies like reparations are gaining traction in California and cities like Evanston, Illinois, in ways that have never been seen before. And I think that's one of the really interesting things about this country is that America is a deeply racist and anti-racist country.
It's a deeply sexist and anti-sexist country that it's deeply egalitarian and deeply struggling to be egalitarian. And so, you know, I think that certainly. The movement on racial justice the last several years has been substantial, and I think in some ways maybe more enduring than things like Me Too. But also, it's hard to know what's going to last.
And, you know, part of why I'm doing the work that I'm doing is with the hope that we can continue to drive some of that progress forward.
A lot of people nowadays like to say there's no such thing as a good billionaire. Is that really the case? And is that really the fault of the person themselves or the tax system or other systems that have been built around them?
You know, I really try to focus on the system, not on individuals. You know, there's a lot of structural factors, you know, that we live in a very economically segregated society, a very racially segregated society. All of these structural reasons, the way I think about it is, I really try to step away from the notion of good or bad.
I think that it's rooted in this deeply held view that you can be a good person or a bad person. I feel like I'm a good person or bad person depending on the day or depending on the moment. What I'm interested in is Instead of, I guess, condemning people as bad, what I'm very interested in is how do we get more people to take more good actions and to be good a higher percentage of the time?
And I think anybody can do that if they make the effort.
So we have a lot of listeners who are very successful and might find themselves in this advantaged position you're talking about. but also are already generous. What can people like that do to be more sympathetic to what you're saying?
Yeah, I love that question. And I think something that I, a question I spent a lot of time with wealthy folks on in particular is this question of, you know, how much money is enough? It's a tricky question because what I found is millionaires usually say, you know, that, oh, rich is the 1%. You know, and I talked to 1%ers and they say that rich is being a billionaire.
And I talked to billionaires and they say, You know, being rich is Bill Gates. And then if you go on the Gates Foundation website, Bill Gates talks about how he doesn't have as much money as some countries. And so, you know, there's this tendency to, you know, feel like the answer to that question, you know, how much is enough is, you know, always more and more and more.
I think the reality is that that approach is actually really constraining. I think a lot of folks, part of why they want to become wealthy is to have financial independence, to feel freedom. And you're not necessarily that free if you're spending your whole life chasing the next dollar while...
Your marriage is going down the drain, your kids aren't speaking to you, that you're not having an impact in the community and so forth. So what does it look like to really get clear on that question? And I found that an easier version of that question is, do I have enough right now?
for folks who have made a good amount of money and feel like they are there, what does it look like to consider the possibility of not accumulating further? And so I was just talking to a wealthy couple a few days ago. They have about $10 million in wealth. I think one of them feels strongly they have enough. The other one is not quite so sure. But the one who does feel sure
And I've encouraged her to think about, well, what would it look like to distribute your investment returns beyond your living expenses next year, to not get richer next year and make a much more substantial investment in communities? So they hold about $10 million. I think their living expenses are a couple hundred thousand a year. And they give a little bit philanthropically, but
Why not try giving $300,000 this year? You're not going to have less than you have before. You're just not going to have more. And what does it look like to play around with that as an experiment? And I'm not saying that everybody has to do that or they have to do that forever.
But what does it look like to take a pause on accumulating, live life differently for a little while and see how it goes and how it feels?
That's an interesting perspective. Let's move into legacy a little bit. What does legacy mean to you?
Yeah, I think for me, you know, I think of there's an indigenous principle called the seven generations principle, where the way some of these tribes who have this belief operate is, what does it look like to make decisions with an eye toward how they'll impact people seven generations out? You know, so looking out 150 years, 200 years later.
You know, what does it look like to make decisions at an individual, institutional and societal level with that viewpoint in mind? And, you know, maybe that's a little abstract, but I think aspirationally, that's something that I take really seriously. And, you know, particularly now that I'm a dad, you know, I wrestle with these questions of.
You know, do I you know, do I invest in maximizing the unearned advantages of my son, you know, or do I invest in building a society where, you know, everybody can thrive regardless of what their unearned advantages are? And I think that. The reality is I do some of both, that there's ways that I invest in my kid in ways that I know that not everyone has the opportunity to.
But I'm also trying to take a less myopic view than I think some folks take and really try to put significant... time and attention and resources into how we build a just and equitable society for everybody and a society that is sustainable for people and planet for the long haul. And the other thing I'll say about legacy is that I think one of the things that I've looked a lot at is
what do people regret on their deathbeds? People regret things like, I wish I didn't work so hard. I wish I was there more for my family and friends. I wish I had the courage to do what I wanted instead of getting caught up in those fears. There's lots of ways where societal pressure actually leads many of us, maybe most of us, toward regret.
And so what does it look like to take a step back and really be intentional about you know, what are the lives that we want to have? And in particular, knowing that you know, the day-to-day rewards of doing something like, you know, having brunch with your kid, you know, that that might not generate the same, you know, hit or high as, you know, knocking out a work deliverable.
But in the long run, you know, those relationships, you know, are really all that matters, you know, that the material success fades. And I've never heard of anybody late in life who said, gosh, I just, I wish I worked more hours, spent more hours at the office. And so it makes me wonder if, uh, our allocations a little off in our day to day.
I hear you there. I hear you. We want to finish this interview talking about the great work that you're doing with CollegeSpring. Tell us a little bit about that program and the initiative and how people wanted to help. They could.
CollegeSpring, as I mentioned, is a program that helps low-income students of color prepare for the SATs and become the first in their families to go to college. It's a national program based in Oakland, but I think there's opportunities for folks to plug in in a number of cities around the country. CollegeSpring has a particularly big presence nationally.
in California, Detroit, a few cities in Texas, but has presence in other places as well. CollegeSpring.org is the website there. Liberation Ventures is focused on racial justice and repair. LiberationVentures.org. You know, so folks who are interested in racial justice and really how do we repair a society that has a problematic history? How do we heal as a society?
Liberation Ventures supports grassroots organizations that are wrestling with those questions and trying to drive progress.
And then the last thing I would say about my current work is that I'm very interested in being a resource for wealthy white folks and rich white men in particular who are trying to advance equity and social justice and live their lives in this meaningful multigenerational lens. So GarrettNyman.com, G-A-R-R-E-T-T-N-E-I-M-A-N.com, which is the book website.
There's a contact form that I would love for anybody to reach out to me, and I'd be happy to be available to anyone personally on this podcast who wants to engage further.
Awesome. Well, Garrett, I really thank you for your time today. You're certainly given some perspective to people that are wealthy. You're given some perspective to people that maybe aren't at that wealth level yet, but want to be and how they can make a difference in this world. You touched on different things that everybody could benefit from.
Yeah, I enjoyed that. Thank you, Gary. This is great. And yeah, Gary, thank you for the work that you do. It's cool that you found this way to find that when people are looking at their long-term decisions through life insurance and support, that that's an avenue to having some of these deeper conversations about our long-term life decisions. I think that's awesome.
I wish more people would do that. So thank you. I appreciate it.
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