Malcolm and Simone Collins hope to have 10 children to help avoid what they see as a pending demographic collapse. They tell Lucy Hockings that as pronatalists they want to promote the dangers of falling fertility rates and encourage other people to have more children.
Chapter 1: Who are the Collins family and what is their unique approach to family planning?
We are a family of six with a five-year-old, a three-year-old, a two-year-old and an almost one-year-old and another baby on the way.
But they want many more. That's because the Collinses have a unique approach to family. They're pronatalists.
I would love to have as many children as I can physically have. So basically until my uterus is removed in a C-section that goes a little wrong.
Chapter 2: What is pronatalism and why are the Collinses advocating for it?
For them, it's a solution for what they see as a demographic collapse facing countries like the U.S. And whereas many people will see their approach as extreme, there's increasing evidence that their ideas have traction at the heart of the Trump administration. We want more babies to be born in America. We want more babies. We need them. We need them.
They say their aims are a pragmatic solution to a pending catastrophe. But is there a darker side to their mission to make America procreate again? I'm Lucy Hockings. From the BBC World Service, this is The Global Story. I can speak to our Washington correspondent, Nomia Iqbal. Hi, Nomia. Hey, Lucy, how are you? Hey, good.
You're with us today because a little earlier I had a conversation with a couple, Malcolm and Simone Collins, and we really want your help in putting that conversation into some context.
Great, let's do it.
Simone, can you just describe to me where you live with your family and what your family looks like?
Our house is surrounded by a beautiful field that has fireflies in the summer, and it's adjacent to the Valley Forge National Park, which is quite a large park in our area. While our oldest is in kindergarten, our youngest are either with me or with neighbors who live right next to us.
How would you actually define pronationalism?
Pronatalism is about bringing attention to falling fertility rates and the geopolitical and economic and social consequences of this and looking for realistic and non-coercive solutions.
So if this is a solution, Simone, pronatalism, what is the main problem that you would say you're worried about?
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Chapter 3: What are the potential societal implications of declining birth rates?
So, it climbed up. But that's still low, especially if you think back to 1960. It was 3.65%. And so, if you're a pronatalist, generally speaking, your argument, well, certainly on the extreme end, I would say, of that movement, your argument would go something like this. Birth rates are falling. If we don't take dramatic action, we're going to witness the extinction of entire societies.
The economy will collapse. Entire races and countries will be wiped out because of lower fertility rates.
Naomi, I've been speaking to quite a few people and asking them what their thoughts are around pronatalism. And I'm surprised how many people haven't actually heard of it. How long has it been around for?
I mean, it's not a new concept. If you read the Bible, you've got, you know, be fruitful and multiply. And then there are lots of other religious traditions. And they go all the way back to, I think it's Louis XIV's France. So They had a policy in France of encouraging large families back in 1666. There was basically this edict offering tax privileges to fathers of 10 or more children.
And that was aimed at increasing the population, strengthening the nation. You had Soviet Russia as well. They wanted to respond to population losses during and after World War II. The goal was increase the birth rates, bolster the workforce. And then even here in the U.S. in 1920s America, women had the right to vote. They could go to work.
And so there were lots of concerns about what that meant in regards to having babies. And now we've seen this resurgence, I guess, of pronatalism because you do have this modern tech look to it, don't you? You have many in Silicon Valley who have taken a big interest in pronatalism.
Simone, you're outlining a really big problem as you see it, but part of your solution is intensely personal in that you're having lots of children. Malcolm, how many would you like to have?
Oh, well, that's not really my choice as the husband. So I'll shoot that to Simone.
I would love to have as many children as I can physically have. So basically until my uterus is removed in a C-section that goes a little wrong or I am unable to carry more pregnancies, I will keep having children, 10, 14, however many I can have.
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Chapter 4: How do the Collinses use genetic testing in their family planning?
Prominent figures in the tech industry, they're not just passive observers, but they're almost becoming like active participants in this so-called reproductive revolution. They're investing so much money, like millions and millions in startups focused on fertility and genetic technologies to try and encourage so-called super babies. And of course, that is just ethically hugely controversial.
So far, Nomia, we've looked at how pronatalism is influencing the Collins' approach to their own family and how they're raising their children. But next, I'm going to ask them about how they think that should apply to families across the U.S.
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You're listening to The Global Story from the BBC World Service. With me is Nomia Iqbal, and I've also been speaking to pronatalists Malcolm and Simone Collins. So we've talked about your personal lives and how you're raising your family, but pronatalism is a part of a movement that you want to start as well.
How are you planning to scale up this approach that you yourselves are taking and make it something bigger?
That's not our goal at all, is to scale this up. We are one experiment to get through the crucible of fertility collapse.
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Chapter 5: What ethical debates surround the pronatalist movement?
I was asking the Collinses immigration, why a solution wasn't just to bring in more people into America.
Many would say that the Collinses do have a point there, but it does leave them open to this argument that certainly liberals would make, which is if you want to... increase birth rates, if you want to address the declining population, then why not have more immigration? Why not bring people over from other countries? It has proven to be effective.
Net immigration is actually the main reason why the U.S. population is currently growing. But then you do get those who are skeptical about pro-natalist claims that this is just about economic reasons. They would say those certainly who are involved in pretty
far right politics are more concerned about just quite bluntly having white babies and that they want to protect a vision of a more European culture. I mean, the hard policy reality is that raising birth rates enough to address the problems of population ageing and eventual decline is impossible. on the timescale required. Legal immigration, interestingly, in this country is a bipartisan issue.
President Donald Trump has said he wants legal immigration. Of course, illegal immigration is incredibly contentious. But as I say, there are those who would argue that immigration would be the way to solve declining birth rates. It would probably be the most effective way of doing it compared to having more babies.
We're speaking to you ahead of the annual natalism conference. You've mentioned it already, Malcolm. It's happening in Austin this weekend. And you are going to be sharing the stage, though, with some eugenics advocates and some people who promote extreme views that you yourself have said you don't agree with, including, I know, Kevin Dolan.
And he says that eugenics and pronatalism positions are very much aligned. Malcolm, are you comfortable when you have to share a platform like that with someone like Kevin?
You know, it's a very different way of seeing the world. I personally, and as I've said, what I like about the prenatalist movement is the diversity of views within it. And that when I go to the prenatalist conference, I get to hear ideas and perspectives that I don't get to hear anywhere else.
There's been this investigation, Namia, into the organiser Kevin Dolan and they found his pseudonym Twitter account and on that he shares homophobic, racist, anti-Semitic views as well. And you mentioned that great replacement theory. He promotes that conspiracy theory as well and said that eugenics and pronatalism positions are very much aligned.
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Chapter 6: How might pronatalism influence family planning policies in the U.S.?
Definitely. And, you know, Donald Trump is also very closely aligned with the tech world. Fertility generally is becoming this sort of pet project in Silicon Valley. I think in 2023, there was about $174 million invested in it. You've got Sam Altman. He's the head of OpenAI. He once had a big family. He's investing in experimental fertility technology.
It's a startup working to make egg cells out of other cells in the body, which basically means that a woman without viable eggs or even two men could make a baby. You've got some that are experimenting with using artificial wombs. And, you know, in some ways, this technology forward vision of pronatalism has become a religion.
And so I can see why families like the Collins would look at the Trump administration as a real great opportunity for them to push forward their philosophy.
Namia, thanks so much. And you. Thanks so much, Lucy. Pronationalism now has two very powerful advocates right at the heart of government in J.D. Vance, the Vice President, and Elon Musk. Simone, what are your expectations of those two men in office?
Elon Musk is a little bit busy with Doge, so I don't expect him to be very involved in pronatalist policy, but he's been always a huge advocate of pronatalist policies, as well as raising awareness about demographic collapse. We are profoundly grateful for that. We're thrilled that J.D.
Vance is vice president and that in his first speech as vice president, he talked about the importance of America having more babies. When you look not just at these two men, but many people within the Trump administration, you can see that pronatalism
is really permeated throughout the entire organization, from Carolyn Leavitt, who sometimes brings her infant in to work with her, to just the number of children that members of the administration have. We're talking five, six, seven. You can see that these are people who just fundamentally agree that children are good and that the future is important. And we find that to be incredibly helpful.
have submitted executive order drafts to the administration for low-hanging fruit that we think could make lives a lot easier for parents and increase the total fertility rate of the United States. We have very high hopes for this administration.
And thanks so much to you for listening. Wherever you're listening in the world, this has been The Global Story. Thanks for having us in your headphones. Goodbye.
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