Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Tue, 17 Dec 2024
Legendary negotiator Chris Voss takes us on an extraordinary journey, sharing his transformation from a small-town Iowa native to the esteemed head of the FBI's international kidnapping negotiation team. Throughout our conversation, Chris reflects on the pivotal lessons in hard work and integrity imparted by his father that shaped his path in law enforcement, eventually leading him to Harvard Law School and Georgetown University. As the CEO of the Black Swan Group, Chris offers insights into his influential work and the surprising inspirations behind his bestselling book, "Never Split the Difference." We engage in a profound dialogue on the importance of self-responsibility and perseverance, especially amidst modern challenges of a victimhood culture. Chris reveals the meticulous process behind writing his book, emphasizing the power of collaboration and strategic decision-making in achieving international success. We explore the unexpected opportunities that arose from his book release, including his prestigious involvement with Masterclass, highlighting the relentless hustle and serendipitous moments that paved the way. The episode rounds out with a captivating exploration of mastering client relationships, drawing from Chris's negotiation techniques to transform real estate coaching strategies alongside Steve Shaw. With a focus on trust and elite customer experience, we discuss the art of building genuine connections and becoming a trusted advisor. Join us for another engaging episode of Escaping the Drift, as we reflect on valuable insights and invite you to connect with our community for more enriching content. CHAPTERS (00:00) - From Small Town to FBI Negotiator (13:56) - Success Through Self-Responsibility and Perseverance (22:10) - Opportunities Seized (31:56) - Mastering Client Relationships in Real Estate (47:20) - Building Trust and Elite Customer Experience (01:00:27) - Connecting With the Audience 💬 Did you enjoy this podcast episode? Tell us all about it in the comment section below! ☑️ If you liked this video, consider subscribing to Escaping The Drift with John Gafford ************* 💯 About John Gafford: After appearing on NBC's "The Apprentice", John relocated to the Las Vegas Valley and founded several successful companies in the real estate space. ➡️ The Gafford Group at Simply Vegas, top 1% of all REALTORS nationwide in terms of production. Simply Vegas, a 500 agent brokerage with billions in annual sales Clear Title, a 7-figure full-service title and escrow company. ➡️ Streamline Home Loans - An independent mortgage bank with more than 100 loan officers. The Simply Group, A national expansion vehicle partnering with large brokers across the country to vertically integrate their real estate brokerages. ************* ✅ Follow John Gafford on social media: Instagram ▶️ / thejohngafford Facebook ▶️ / gafford2 🎧 Stream The Escaping The Drift Podcast with John Gafford Episode here: Listen On Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7cWN80gtZ4m4wl3DqQoJmK?si=2d60fd72329d44a9 Listen On Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/escaping-the-drift-with-john-gafford/id1582927283 ************* #escapingthedrift #negotiation #chrisvoss #fbi #lawenforcement #harvardlawschool #georgetownuniversity #blackswangroup #neversplitthedifference #selfresponsibility #perseverance #victimhoodculture #success #bookwriting #collaboration #strategicdecisionmaking #publishing #masterclass #realestate #clientrelationships #trust #elitecustomerexperience #mastery #customerservice #trusting #redflags #connecting
Chapter 1: How did Chris Voss transition from a small town to the FBI?
So the thought of traveling all over the world as a job in law enforcement appealed to me. At the time, the Secret Service was not hiring. The FBI was. I had no idea the difference between the FBI or the CIA or the Secret Service or the FDA.
And now, Escaping the Drift, the show designed to get you from where you are to where you want to be. I'm Jon Gafford, and I have a knack for getting extraordinary achievers to drop their secrets to help you on a path to greatness. So stop drifting along, escape the drift, and it's time to start right now.
Back again, back again for another episode of the show like it says in the opening, man, gets you from where you are to where you want to be. And today in the studio, man, I'm so excited. We have waited three months for today. We scheduled this a long, long time ago and in studio today. I'm talking about kids. I got a legend, a legend in the studio today.
This dude was the head of the FBI's lead international kidnapping investigation. He was the negotiator for that division. He is an adjunct professor at the Harvard Law School and Georgetown University. He has written one of probably the Bible-type books. It's the Bible for negotiation called Never Split the Difference, Negotiating as if Your Life Depends on It.
He is the CEO of the Black Swan Group, and now he's an AI, which is cool. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the studio. This is Chris Voss. Chris!
Thanks for having me on, man. I appreciate it.
How are we doing, man?
Good to see you.
Good to see you. And another fellow Las Vegas or a Las Vegas. I am residing here these days, which we like. Yeah. We, we, we always like having our neighbors come on. I'm, I'm sorry that it was such a long drive from your side of town to my side of town. It's getting longer every day.
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Chapter 2: What role does self-responsibility play in success?
And good news, bad news, you like working for a guy that would never ask you to do anything he wouldn't do himself? And there was nothing that was beneath him. So if needed to get done, you know, if he's delivering, if he owns a gas station and a toilet's backed up in a gas station, he'd get in there and clean it himself. So he figured that you should have no misgivings about doing anything.
So, and also he'd give you a list of things to do, not necessarily tell you how to get them done. Yeah. So you had to figure a lot of stuff out. So learn how to work hard, how to figure stuff out at an early age. And the basics of negotiation is figuring it out and attention and learning.
So I think that's, I applied these ideas to this particular area, but I think it would be applicable to any area.
How'd you get started with the FBI?
Via my father's disappointment.
Okay.
So at about age 16, I saw this movie, The Super Cops, about two New York City cops that were wildly creative, wildly inventive. I didn't realize how much they were mavericks at the time. I was just struck by their creativity. They did a lot of good. They locked up a lot of bad guys in bad areas of New York City. And the community loved them.
These were white cops in a black neighborhood, and black people in the neighborhood loved them because they cared about having a great neighborhood. So these guys served the community. And color disappears when you do that. But I was always struck at how creative these guys were. So I wanted to be a cop.
I wanted to be a cop in a big city, growing up in a small town in Iowa, what I imagined it would be like. The deal my father had with all his kids was I'll pay for four years of education post high school if you can get into a college. And it's probably gotta be in state, state school, affordable. He's not gonna send you to any private school out of state or even in state.
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Chapter 3: What unexpected opportunities arose from Chris's book release?
But I'll pay for four years. If you don't graduate, that's on you. So I graduate four years. I go down and apply to Kansas City, Missouri Police Department. So my father pays for a four year degree and I go down and get a job that only requires a high school diploma. but he realized that I was committed to it.
And so he thought, well, if a kid's going to stay in law enforcement, he should be the best he could be. And so he started to encourage me to federal law enforcement. So, you know, as the outside perception, a great investigators are great cops at all levels, at all levels. He introduces me to a friend of his that was with the secret service.
And the guy says, yeah, I traveled all over the world with the secret service. And I was like, wow. Like where I grew up, crossing the state line into Illinois was a big deal. Yeah. Just cornfields and cows, I'm guessing. Cornfields and cows and small towns. So the thought of traveling all over the world as a job in law enforcement appealed to me.
At the time, the Secret Service was not hiring, the FBI was. I had no idea the difference between the FBI or the CIA or the Secret Service or the FDA. You know, federal alphabet. So I applied for the Secret Service, not hiring, the Bureau is. I apply and it happened to have a hiring push on. And I get in and it was amazing.
But now the degree mattered.
Now the degree is what got me in. What was your degree in? At Iowa State University, at the time they called it industrial administration. It is now the business school. It was a business degree. Okay. And I get in, the minimums to get into the Bureau are a four-year college degree, three years of life experience, bare minimums. An advanced degree, you can get in with two years.
Some degrees, they'll take you right away, but it's a bad idea. You need the seasoning of the real world. to get into the bureau. In three years is actually a short period of time.
Come on, Chris, you're saying college isn't the real world? You're saying you don't learn everything you need to know being in college? Come on, man.
That would be the case, right? But I get in. I was second youngest person in my class to graduate. The youngest guy, the only guy younger than me, ended up being my partner in New York City. And we had a long run together that worked really well. But so I get into the Bureau, originally wanted to be on a SWAT team.
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Chapter 4: How can mastering client relationships enhance real estate success?
When I left the police department, I was two weeks away from being transferred to the SWAT team. And so got on the SWAT team, FBI Pittsburgh, first office. Went on a couple of SWAT operations. Got transferred to New York City, decided to try out for the FBI's hostage rescue team, which is the FBI's version of the Navy SEALs, and there are a lot of former SEALs and former Delta guys on that team.
Yeah.
And so we had hostage negotiators. I had no idea what they did. Like, I was clueless. But it looked easy. Didn't involve your knee bending too much. Yeah, you know, they talk to bad guys. I talk all the time. I should be able to do that. I originally applied for the negotiation team in New York, got rejected.
And the key to me, both getting in the bureau and on the negotiation team, was asking the right person and then doing what they said. So I asked the woman who was in charge of the negotiation team in New York after she flat out made it clear to me, I was eminently unqualified. I didn't have other than wanting to do it, nothing. And I said, well, what is it that I could do?
She said, volunteer on a suicide hotline, which I did, which shocked her, which shocked me. She said, you know, I tell everybody to do that. Nobody does. And so kind of the issue is do you take initiative and do you take instruction? That is kind of, it sounds really simple. But most people won't take initiative because they're like, ah, you know, what good is this going to do me?
I'm not going to do any extra.
Yeah, the phrase you're looking for is ask whole. They ask and then they don't do what you tell them to do. Yeah. So don't ask me at all.
Yeah, and then who did you ask also? Yeah. Because I've taken advice from the wrong people in the past. You know, there's a phrase, never take advice from somebody you wouldn't trade places with or hasn't been where you're going. Yeah. Now, if you really think about that, Who does that quickly disqualify? Probably people that you trust and people that you love. Yeah. Because your mom loves you.
You trust your mom. But if she hasn't done what you're asking about, she's not going to be able to give you good advice. Your brother-in-law, your father, you know, whatever your profession is. If they haven't done what you're asking about, the fact that you love them and trust them is inadequate. And that's the hard thing about advice, sorting out who you should really listen to.
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Chapter 5: What techniques help in building trust with clients?
They're looking for validation, and they're kind of looking for, it's not my fault that I didn't succeed. So if I'm doing what I'm supposed to do and I'm not succeeding, then I'm a victim.
Do you think there's an epidemic of that in this country right now? Or do you think the pendulum's swinging back now?
I think, well, I don't know that... The percentages have changed. Now I know that our attention to it is being very much more focused in a very different way. So human nature, most people say human nature hasn't changed in 10,000 years. So what does that mean? That means, I don't know that there's an epidemic of it, but our attention is brought to it more than at any other time.
Well, I think it's almost become an honor badge to be a victim. It's a contest. Yeah, it's like, oh, I'm victimized because of this. Who can be the most victimized? And I think that's bred this fear. fucking terrible apathy through everything. It's just like, let me, instead of being introspective about my problems, let me look outward for all of my issues.
Right. Yeah.
Why the world is happening to me.
Yeah. Yeah. It definitely, it's a contest who can be the greatest victim these days.
Yeah.
And then what everybody misses is there's no path to success designed around being a victim. None.
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Chapter 6: How did Chris Voss achieve international recognition?
Everybody did.
Yeah. Every, every overnight success story has 15 years of grind behind it. Right. So I'm really interested, you know, obviously did the FBI negotiation thing. I'm interested in the time period really between nobody knows who Chris Foss is and you are on everybody's reading list. Like, I mean, it was, it seemed like it happened overnight that everybody I knew had this book, including me.
So what was it that like, what is that journey?
It's weird. Um, The book first came out, co-writer of the book, Tal Raz.
Was it your idea to write the book, or did somebody come to you and say we should write a book?
No, it was my idea. I actually held off on it for a number of years, wanted to make sure I had enough material. My son Brandon was very involved. And then there's cliche advice, but it's 1,000% true. If you want your book to succeed, go to the bookstore, find a book that you want to write. Hire that guy.
So the only business book that I ever read that I was really entertained by and was an easy read, not light, but easy. Never Eat Alone, Keith Ferrazzi's book on networking. And so Tal Raz was his co-writer. And I actually fired four writers before I got to Tal. And Tal made all the difference in the world. And in so many ways that I didn't realize at the time, Tal is a brilliant researcher.
I didn't think the writer should do research. You know, my thought was I'm subject matter, your style.
Just interview me and let's go.
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Chapter 7: What lessons can be learned from Chris Voss's journey?
Yep.
And my agent, Steve Ross, he was caught off guard. He didn't think they'd talk to a lot of agents. They said the world doesn't need another negotiation book. Steve didn't say that, but Steve did say, I'm not sure how this is going to do domestically, but I know I can sell the heck out of this internationally. And now because of Steve Ross, it's in over 40 countries, 36 languages.
So he distributes it to the publishers and the publishers go nuts. And we got a hold of an auction. It was a frenzy. And we held it over, you know, as it coming up on Halloween, publishers are all in New York, Halloween parties on Friday. Like it was funny.
They're bidding on the book while they're hanging out the Halloween parties, which in the United States is more people get locked up for a drunk driving on Halloween than any other holiday.
I would guesstimate that's probably right.
So people are partying on Halloween and we get this auction going. And in the middle of the auction, publishers, while they like the proposal, they're balking at the guy that wrote the proposal because he doesn't have a track record of this type of book. And the deal then ends up being contingent on that issue. I had spoken to Tall previously and been unable to make the deal.
Why did Tall not write the proposal? For those of you that don't know, when you submit a book, when you write a book, you have to write essentially, it's kind of a bio about you, your following, how you plan to help market the book, and then they submit a sample chapter with it, essentially with the proposal.
Yeah, and it's kind of like the publisher is the venture capitalist, and you're telling them why it's a good investment. Yes. And so, Tall's great expertise is the book. He could write a great proposal, he's not particularly interested in doing that, which I've come to learn since. But at the time, I got no money,
everybody's telling me that the publishers are, some people are saying nobody's going to want this. Other people are saying, I don't know if the world needs another negotiation book. And I sit down with Tal and he outlines what he needs to make it work, which is how you should do a deal. You should never leave a doubt in the other person's mind what it's going to take to make the deal.
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