Diddy’s defence team has tried to establish that the so-called ‘freak-offs’ - sexual encounters in which Cassie Ventura would have sex with male escorts while Diddy watched - may have been consensual. It’s been the first day of Cassie’s cross-examination by one of Sean ‘Diddy’ Combs’ lawyers. Anna Estevao asked Ventura about the more loving side of the pair's time together, after she testified over the last two days about alleged violence and abuse.Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty speaks to the BBC’s Madeline Halpert about Cassie’s cross examination and gets the latest legal analysis from criminal defence attorney Shaun Kent.A warning that this episode contains descriptions of violence, sexual violence, including rape and graphic descriptions of sex.The Diddy on Trial podcast is here to investigate the rumours, confront the theories, and give you the answers that you need. We also want YOU to be part of the conversation. Have you any questions about the case? Heard a theory that doesn’t sit right with you? Get in touch now via WhatsApp: 0330 123 555 1.Presenter: Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty Series Producer: Laura Jones Sound Design: Mark Burrows Senior Digital Producer: Matthew Pintus Video Producer: Daniel Raza Production Coordinator: Hattie Valentine Editor: Clare Fordham Commissioning Editor: Rhian Roberts Assistant Commissioner: Will Drysdale Commissioning Producer: Adam Eland Commissioning Assistant Producer: Rechmial Miller
Chapter 1: Who is Cassie Ventura and what is her role in the Diddy trial?
Cassie Ventura has been in the courtroom behind me all day answering questions from Sean Diddy Combs' defence lawyer. She was Sean Combs' partner for more than a decade and she's been the prosecution's main witness for this case.
Now remember, after making her testimony yesterday, Cassie wasn't allowed to receive any advice from the prosecution before facing questions from the defence, whose aim it is to pick holes in what she said. But before we dig into the detail, I wanted to just take a moment to tell you a bit about who's been coming into the court to watch the trial this week.
In the US, federal court proceedings are generally open to the public. It means you've got journalists like me, but then you have social media influencers, people referring to themselves as citizen journalists, and then everyday ordinary Americans who are simply interested in finding out what's been going on.
There was one moment where a lady had to be escorted out of one of the overflow rooms after shouting her disgust in the direction of the TV monitor, which was showing a live feed of the courtroom. She shouted that Cassie was going to go into labour on the stand. And outside the courtroom, Diddy's supporters had been playing his music non-stop.
Sean Diddy Combs is accused of sex trafficking, transportation for prostitution and racketeering with conspiracy. He denies all the charges and says he's never sexually assaulted anyone, man or woman, adult or minor. If found guilty, he could end up spending the rest of his life behind bars. It's 4pm and it's the end of the day.
And I'm here with Madeleine Halpert, who's been inside the court digitally reporting for the BBC in New York. Madeleine, how did the cross-examination begin today?
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Chapter 2: How did Cassie's cross-examination begin and what was the focus?
There's been a lot of starting and stopping today. So it began this morning. They were supposed to start yesterday, but they decided in the end to push it to today. And we started going through Mr. Combs and Cassie Ventura's relationship. So we started with the early days. There was some going back and forth in terms of time periods, but just kind of
establishing actually the the love in their relationship and the passion that was there they were trying to show that other side of things we've heard a lot about the abuse but today was kind of at least at the beginning was more focused on why they were together and why she fell in love with him and when they said to cassie things like you were in love with him right you were in love with him for 11 years how did she respond to those kind of questions she did not deny loving him there were these
positive things about a relationship. I stayed with him for, they were on and off for 11 years, but we got back together several times. There were times she pushed back, like the attorney said, you kept coming back to him. And she said, no, I wouldn't frame it like that. It wasn't coming back, but that they kept getting back together.
So she acknowledged that there were these positive elements to their relationship too.
The narrative offered about free coughs was very different from the one yesterday that Cassie spoke about. What were they sort of establishing about free coughs, the defense's version of free coughs?
Yeah, so they wanted to get at their larger argument that Cassie had free will and was a willing participant in these sex acts. And so they showed us a lot of text messages today, but some of them that we saw from Cassie that she sent to Mr. Combs was, you know, I love our FOs, freak-offs, when we both want it, she said. At another point, she said, we wish we could have FOed before you left.
So they wanted to paint this picture of her... at sometimes being interested in actually having these. And of course, you know, she tried to clarify. At one point she said those were just words at that point. But we definitely saw a different side of the, you know, her involvement in the freak-offs there than what we saw with the direct questioning.
And in Cassie's Direct, it was about establishing coercion and that speaks to the force, fraud or coercion element of the sex trafficking charge. So with this, they're focusing on her ability to consent and then her written consent. Did she speak to the text even more and say, well, I said that because of this or that's the reason I wrote that?
What did she give as an explanation? A lot of the times she just acknowledged that, yes, that's what I said. That's what I said at the time. She didn't have as much of an opportunity to kind of give the context because this is like cross-examination, yes or no questions. But there were times when she pushed back. There was at one point she was reading a long, many, many pages of texts.
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Chapter 3: What are the 'freak-offs' and how is consent being discussed in court?
There was another thing running alongside this. We know there's a time pressure with Cassie. She's very visibly pregnant in her third trimester. And at one point, the judge expressed some frustration with the length of time the defense are planning to take.
Yeah, today it was a conversation between the attorneys and the judge. And he was saying the expectation was that Cassie would be done with all of her testimony by the end of the week. As you said, she's very pregnant, which they don't say that. They say she's time sensitive, but we can say that's the reason why.
And the Mr. Combs attorney, Mark Agnefillo, was saying basically we might need more time and the judge was not having that. He was saying, really, you guys should all be done with everything by lunch. And what about the prosecution?
Did we hear much from them? I mean, we heard a few objections from the defense before, but not that many during Cassie's direct testimony. What was it like for the prosecution today?
We heard a lot of objections from prosecution, objections over relevance, over asking, not giving enough foundation before asking a question. I think we've heard more from prosecutors than we did during Cassie's direct testimony. A lot of A lot of and objecting to evidence, too.
There's been a lot of conversation about whether they can bring up evidence that references Cassie's relationships with other men. And there's been back and forth between lawyers about that. So definitely a lot of objections today.
And I just want to pick up on one more thing that was in Cassie's direct, which was, quote, insane jealousy that she experienced during the relationship. And if you're a casual observer and you listen to her, you might be like, why did why did they just do that? And self-contained moment about her insane jealousy. Did the defense pick up on that and question her about that today?
Jealousy was a huge theme of the defense attorney's arguments today. They must have repeated that remark that Cassie gave about insane jealousy several times. They argued that Cassie was insanely jealous, that Mr. Combs was insanely jealous.
I think it was a part of their broader point that a lot of the violence in the relationship was not about Mr. Combs trying to control and abuse and coerce Cassie, but more about just these drug-induced moments of jealousy and rage.
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Chapter 4: What challenges did Cassie face during cross-examination?
I think earlier in the day, she started off very calm. She's pretty soft-spoken. She was soft-spoken yesterday. And the judge even said at one point, you've got a really cooperative witness, a responsive witness. She's answered their questions very directly. There have been times where she's gotten a little bit more combative.
I think as the defense attorney accused her over and over again of being addicted to drugs, which she's said repeatedly, there have been times when she's pushed back slightly or tried to get more context in her answers. But overall, she's been pretty contained on the stand.
And if you were checking social media while this was going on, as a lot of people were, you would be seeing different celebrities' names popped up. What was going on with that?
There were a lot of celebrity name drops today. We already heard about her relationship with Kid Cudi yesterday, but that was brought up again, so there was a lot of talk about that. At one point, there was a reference to Britney Spears at her 21st birthday party in Las Vegas because Mr. Combs brought her.
Also, Michael B. Jordan came up because Cassie apparently had a brief relationship with him after she broke up with Mr. Combs. So that's a relationship I think we didn't know a ton about before. So there was certainly a lot of celebrity action today in court. But none of those celebrities have been accused of anything within this trial. No, they have not.
Madeline, thank you so much. Thank you. It was great to chat. That was Madeline Halpert, the BBC's digital reporter in New York. Okay, it's time for me to rush back to our New York studio. I've got a lot of questions, so you know it's time. I better call Sean. Our regular criminal defense attorney from South Carolina, Sean Kent, is joining me today.
Sean, it's Diddy on Trial and Diddy's actually on trial now in New York. Me and you have been catching up every day and debriefing. You're keeping me sane and keeping up with the trial. Most of this week has been about Cassie's testimony and now her cross-examination. What did you make of her direct testimony?
I thought the direct testimony was actually perfect. I thought the government did what they are supposed to do. People don't understand in the United States when you're looking to get a conviction, you have to go with elements is what we do. We have elements of our offenses. And so the government's doing what we talk about. Believe it or not, they're working on their closing argument right now.
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Chapter 5: What role does jealousy play in the defense's argument?
You're like, what do you mean? Because at the end of the trial, the very end, the judge is going to say, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, for you to convict Mr. Combs of these charges, the government has to prove this, this, this, this, and this. And so what the government is doing through the testimony of Cassie is going through this, this, this, this, and this.
And so when you watch the closing argument, I promise you what they're going to do is they're going to say, ladies and gentlemen, do you remember when Cassie testified? She testified about force. She testified about coercion. She talked about abuse. She talked about a history abuse. She talked about going across county lines because they're just going through the elements.
So I actually think they did a good job. I've told you this. Maybe I haven't said it to the listeners. This is the first trial I've covered. So when I came in, I did kind of expect violence. bombshell allegation after bombshell allegation. And a lot of it was really spent taking us into the beginning of the relationship and setting the scene.
And then in the second day came a lot more emotion from Cassie and far more sort of bombshell moments. Definitely what social media has classed as bombshell moments. There were some prominent critiques from legal analysts and everybody who has an opinion on the Diddy trial.
And they were saying, OK, the prosecution has done a really good job of presenting Diddy as a bad person, presenting Diddy as somebody who may have sexually assaulted Cassie. But how does that build the sex trafficking charge?
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Chapter 6: How did Cassie respond emotionally during cross-examination?
And that's the problem is when everybody's got an opinion, but people don't rely on the law and the law. And we're making these assumptions that all the government is doing is proving a case of domestic violence, which, yes, they have. This is domestic violence. But as I mentioned, the judge is going to tell the jury there are certain things required for sex trafficking and it's not a lot.
He's going to say at the beginning of trial, you took an oath to follow the law. This is that law. One, is there a person involved? Check. That person is Cassie. Did somebody use force, coercion, or something to get them to engage in a commercial sex act? Yes, she testified force was used. What is a commercial sex act?
A commercial sex act is basically engaging in sex for money or anything of value. They're going to say, yes, they did. And then the last thing is, and this is what I think is interesting, is the entire defense is going to come on, knew or should have known. Meaning, did the defendant know that he was engaging in coercion?
Chapter 7: What celebrity names were mentioned in the trial and why?
Or should he have known that what he was doing was coercing through physical activity? And that's it. That is all they've got to prove. And I guarantee you, if you go back to the testimony now in your head, you're like, yeah, that's why they asked that question. That's why they asked that question.
Yeah, because they did a lot on geography. They did states, but they also did like, oh, Turks and Caicos, Ibiza, Greece. So that's like foreign as well, because it's interstate and foreign, right, on the indictment.
And when I read the law, like if I read the charge, it was like, and I think I have it in front of me somewhere. The last line of the charge, the judge will say, third, the defendant's acts were in or affecting interstate law. or foreign commerce within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States. That's why that's in there. That's why they did it.
So you touched there about they're going to say it's domestic violence. And I mean, the defense team, they came out and said that in the opening statement. We knew that they were going to say this was domestic violence and there was mutual back and forth physical aggression. People have pointed out a lot about the CNN video.
I'm talking there about the assault in the hallway in 2016 that was leaked by CNN. That was played very early on and it's been played multiple times. And Cassie walked the jury through it step by step from her recollection. We've got a question for a listener. PJ says, thanks for keeping us up to date, hearing the testimony and the history of the two witnesses so far.
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Chapter 8: What legal insights does criminal defense attorney Shaun Kent provide about Cassie's testimony?
I haven't heard a lot about the allegations. I've just heard that he's a horrible person, but that isn't illegal. Have I missed something? When will they start talking about drug trafficking and the other RICO allegations be asked by the prosecution? In my opinion, I haven't heard much. And that's reflected in some of the commentary online.
We're talking a lot about this CNN video, but that's not RICO. What do you say to that?
One, everybody like there's a famous case in the United States of America. It's a case of guy Al Capone. The United States got Al Capone basically on tax fraud, but not all the awful stuff that he's done. I'm not saying that that's what they're doing the ditty, but people tend to forget this Cassie charge. If they stopped and they said today, you know what, judge, we don't want to go any further.
And they said, we want the jury to convict him of just the sex trafficking and the elements I just told you. 60 months is five years. 120 months is 10 years. So you can assume if they just stop here, they've convicted him of a 15 year offense without even getting into the RICO. And number two, the reason they're not it's not that they're not getting into the RICO is I made the joke.
Cassie is 11 teen months pregnant. If they didn't start with her right now, there's a real chance that she would have had this baby. And who knows where we are?
Yeah, and then that's come up with prosecution in some of the transcripts with the judge. And also the judge got quite sort of firm today. You need to finish with her by this week. The prosecution are worried that she's going to go and leave interlabor over the weekend. So that's been voiced. But you speak there about if they can convict him of force.
So doesn't that all hinge on whose recollection of that CNN video you believe? Because Cassie says she was fleeing a freak off. And then he's dragging her back. That is directly, it was forcing her into do it in black and white. He says, she stole my phone and I wanted my phone back. So let's say he said, she said situation, right?
Yeah, he is. And that's why, if I'm not mistaken, they also had one of the sex workers who were also testifying that there was a freak off going on. But you're exactly right. That's why I think he's going to testify. Because he is the one who's going to have to explain this is what was really going on, not what she was saying. Because she has made the government's case. This was a freak-off.
I was leading the freak-off. He beat me. And let's... To make it easier for the law, let's call it what it was. I was leaving a commercial sex act because that's what the law is. We call them a free cost, but for the statute, I was leaving a commercial sex act. I didn't want to participate. Somebody was getting paid and he was beating me up and making me go backwards. Check.
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