Blayne Alexander and Andrea Canning catch up about Andrea’s latest episode, “A Walk Through the Woods.” In 2017, two middle schoolers, Libby German and Abby Williams, were found murdered in the woods on the outskirts of Delphi, Indiana, near an abandoned railway bridge. For years, the case was at a standstill, except for one clue: a video of the killer captured by one of his victims on her cellphone. Andrea tells Blayne about visiting the bridge for herself and what it was like covering the crime as the mother of girls the same age as the victims. Plus, she shares a podcast-exclusive clip from her interview with the prosecutor on the case, Nick McLeland, and answers viewer and listener questions from social media.Have a question for Talking Dateline? Leave it for us in a voicemail at (212) 413-5252 for a chance to be featured on a future episode! Listen to the full episode of "A Walk Through the Woods" on Apple: https://apple.co/3Xjb92lListen to the full episode on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/2kXFahUaZMKnbAxkHasZI2
Chapter 1: What is 'A Walk Through the Woods' about?
Hi, everyone. I'm Blayne Alexander, and today we are talking Dateline. I'm joined today by Andrea Canning to discuss her latest episode, A Walk Through the Woods. If you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed. So go there and listen to it or stream it on Peacock and then come back here.
To recap, in 2017, two schoolgirls, Libby German and Abby Williams, were found murdered in the woods of Delphi, Indiana, near an abandoned railway bridge. For years, the case went unsolved and police were at a standstill except for one clue— A grainy picture and a gravelly voice captured on Libby's phone right before the murders.
It would turn out to be a very big clue that helped solve the girls' murders. For this episode, Andrea is going to share a podcast-exclusive clip from her interview with the case's prosecutor, Nick McCleland. Then we'll answer viewer and listener questions from social media. All right, let's talk Dateline. Hey, Blaine. Hi, Andrea. How are you? I'm good. Thank you. This was a tough one for me.
I can only imagine. I want to dive into that because this was one of those stories that... You know, a lot of our Dateline cases for viewers and even for us, they're brand new, right? You haven't heard about them before we bring them the episodes. This was something that we all kind of watched play out from beginning to end, right? Like I remember having friends cover this. I remember watching it.
And when the cell phone video was released, all of that, there's a lot to dive into. I want to start with just where this actually occurred, that bridge. It was already an eerie kind of setting for a crime like this, right? Yeah.
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Chapter 2: What was the setting of the Delphi murders?
It really was. It was, having been out there, it's very high up. It's old. It's dilapidated. It's, you know, the ties are kind of far apart. A lot of people would go out on it. But, I mean, you're really playing with fire out on this bridge. Like, if you fall, you're dead. I mean, I said to the sheriff, I was like, you would not catch me ever on that bridge. It was just so scary.
I remember that line. And I thought the exact same thing. I mean, was it as high as it seemed?
Yeah, that was what surprised me. Now it's been turned into kind of like a recreation place. But before the bridge, there's railings. You know, you can go out there and look out at the wilderness and the creek and everything. But the bridge is still there. You know, the dangerous ties, people, if you wanted to go out on it, you could find a way.
There was a lot that was really memorable about this episode, but I have to say that almost as soon as you introduced Libby's grandparents, Mike and Becky, my heart just went out to them because I can't imagine just this feeling of like, hey, they were just having a sleepover at the house. Yeah. And then the next day they're gone.
Chapter 3: How did the families of the victims cope with the tragedy?
Talk to me about what it was like just having that conversation with them.
It was hard. I was on the verge of tears a few times. Mike and Becky were so nice. And I commended them because there's a lot of grandparents who end up taking in their grandchildren as their own because of issues going on in the family. And I always think how incredible family grandparents can be when they are so selfless. And they said they wouldn't have it any other way.
And I think they truly enjoyed having the girls there. And something that was not in the show was something that Becky said to me. She said they had a Disney World vacation planned. Of course, the girls died. And she said the hardest thing, because it was months later, and they decided to go on the trip. And she said she had to call And take Libby off of the reservation.
You know, just broke her when she had to do that because it just felt, you know, so real and they were so excited about the trip.
Of course, of course. Oh gosh, that's just so, so heartbreaking. I'm curious, did you or did anybody from our Dateline team, did anyone speak to Abby's family?
So Marianne O'Donnell, who's the producer on this story, the lead producer, she was in court every single day, including Saturdays. The court was on Saturdays, too. So she got to know everyone. And Abby's family, they did not do a whole lot there with the media. They were not particularly outspoken about everything, which is understandable. Completely. Given what they...
what they went through. Absolutely. Absolutely understandable. You know, let's talk about this investigation. I think, Andrea, for stories like this that so many of us follow kind of almost in real time, I'm almost even more fascinated to watch the Dateline episode because I think that I know a lot about a case and then the episode brings forth some more that I didn't know.
And the thing that I think all of us remember is that eerie recording from Libby's phone. They have this image now of the murderer, his voice, and really the girls helped bring down their own killer.
Yeah, I mean, I said that to the prosecutor. I said it was like Libby helped solve her own crime and the crime of her best friend. I don't think I've ever covered a story where someone has the wherewithal to pull out their phone feeling something's not right here and just hitting record. So- You know, hats off to Libby, who, by the way, was a big fan of crime dramas.
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Chapter 4: How did Libby's phone help solve the case?
I'm curious, you know, one of the things that we heard was that recording and the words down the hill, right? And correct me if I'm wrong, but that was the only portion that was released. I didn't realize that they actually had, what, 43 seconds, you said, of audio?
Yeah. 43 seconds of audio and video. And, you know, I knew viewers would wonder why didn't they release the whole video. We never got a straight answer really of why they didn't. I think they also felt like Seeing the images, seeing the snippet of him walking was enough.
Well, I have another question about that. I wonder, did the video lead investigators astray at all? I mean, it led to people kind of pointing fingers at friends, acquaintances online, just anyone that they could think about that even slightly resembled Bridge Guy.
I mean, I think they had to. You know, that happened. Sure, people were pointing fingers at each other and, you know, everyone was a suspect. But, you know, they had to release that video, right? I mean, how could you not? Sure. Because someone might have recognized something and, you know, the killer...
His wife had seen the story on the news and said, hey, you were out there that day around that time. You know, the police are saying, come talk to us, you know, if you were out there on the trails. And so he did. You know, Richard Allen went to the police. Unfortunately, he didn't get with a detective. He got with a conservation officer.
Like, I know the now sheriff who was a detective said he didn't even know about Richard Allen. Like, it never even got to him.
That is unbelievable. Before we go further into Richard Allen, something that was really interesting about this episode to me, there were obviously alternate suspects. Let's talk about Anthony Schatz or Kagan Klein. That was a journey. That was interesting.
That was like a really big time red herring.
Yes, absolutely. It was. First, I want to say I loved that we had these interviews that like Court TV reporter had done, like WTHR. Yeah. I mean, to have that interview with the guy whose real picture it was while he was working out on a workout machine.
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Chapter 5: What were the challenges with the investigation and suspects?
I know. I don't think I've ever done it. I don't know what was going on there, but I don't think I've interviewed any people like that on a like who are working out.
Can I just say I appreciate the multitasking. Okay. He said, no excuses. We're getting it in today. I know.
That was so funny. Yeah. I know. So funny. And it was so funny to think that he was a model and now he's like a police officer in Alaska. He's like, wait a second. Why am I getting dragged into this murder investigation?
I just want to go on the record and say, next time we do a talking date line, perhaps we could do it from the Peloton.
And that way we're- Oh my gosh.
No excuses to not work out here. But that whole- whole episode with Anthony Schatz, Kagan Klein. I mean, that really was, yes, talk about a red herring. But I'm sure that when detectives kind of found those conversations with Libby, they were like, okay, this is it. Case closed. We got a guy.
Yeah. I think they kept thinking that. I mean, they thought it was going to be solved within a week.
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Chapter 6: What was the impact of the case on the Delphi community?
And it just didn't happen. I would imagine this had a tremendous impact on this community.
Everybody was just fearful. Delphi is just a tiny... you know, little community. And you can only imagine like you're there to raise your family and, you know, have kids and like where they feel safe and where you can drop them off at the trails for the afternoon and not think twice.
And you know, everybody, that's the creepy thing. You feel like you know everybody. So now you're looking and it's like, okay, these people that I know is one of you guys, like, are we in the same restaurant with the person who did this?
Are you next to me at the stoplight? Yeah, exactly. And you know, I was, um, everyone is so nice there. Hmm. I was actually rear-ended. I was in a rental, yeah. And like a service type van, like just crashes right into the back of me. And he's like, meet me over at the fire. There was a fire station like right there. And so I went and he was so nice. He's like, I'm so sorry. That was my fault.
I feel like if I was in New York, they'd be like, you know, why did you stop at a stop sign? Exactly. First, they wouldn't have told you to meet anyone over anywhere.
They would have just like... Yelled at you and probably kept going.
But it was funny, though, because it was like it just showed you just how nice. Yeah. Like, you know, like there was no animosity, no fighting, no like denying, no just. I'm so sorry. I'm sure you were on your way to an interview or something. Oh, I was. We had to start late. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
OK, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, Andrea is going to share a podcast exclusive clip from her interview with the prosecutor in this case, Nick McCleland. Let's talk about the trial.
And before we can talk about the trial, of course, we have to talk about the pretrial hearing and kind of the judge ruling that the defense could not introduce this alternate theory that the murders were tied to Odinism. First, talk about what that was. And that was a tremendous blow to the defense.
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Chapter 7: What was the significance of the pre-trial hearings?
I mean, if he wanted to cover them up, it certainly didn't accomplish that.
Sure. So who knows? And so having that not be allowed in, I mean, that kind of upends their defense in a way, right? Like they have to go on trial in a very... In a different posture.
Yeah. Well, and they weren't allowed any, like, other suspects. So it was just, they just had to find what they could, like, to defend Richard Allen. I mean, the defense went hard on the, his, you know, confessions, which they said were under extreme duress. That that's what happens when, you know, someone is, you know, placed in solitary like that for months.
So Richard Allen was actually, you know, most of our viewers at this point, I feel like, and listeners know the difference between jail and prison, right? Jail is if you've been charged with murder, you will go to a jail until your trial and throughout your trial. And then if you're convicted, then you'll be, you know, carted off to a state prison somewhere or a federal prison.
In this case, they actually sent Richard Allen to prison.
Why?
They said it was for his own safety. I was in the jail in Delphi, and I did talk to the sheriff about the jail. And he said that they were understaffed. Richard Allen would have ended up with other people. It's just too small. So they said that's why they just made this decision to send him to the prison. And then why he goes into solitary, they say is for his own safety.
But there were stories of him like doing things with his feces and that he's in his underwear and he's like, you know, the defense made it sound like he basically was like losing his mind in there. So they kind of call them like almost like false confessions.
That's really interesting. Something that stood out to me was, I believe it was his defense attorney who was basically saying, hey, when you talk about matching the physical description. He's wearing what? Jeans and a Carhartt jacket. Like everybody's wearing jeans and Carhartt jacket. Yeah, Carhartt hoodie.
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