Blayne Alexander
Appearances
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Michelle, Shantae's mother, was really upset about that. She was certainly noting the compassion that wasn't shown to her daughter. But then also this was a place that was very special to Shantae, right? This was Shantae's safe space. And, you know, obviously, Ryan, his family had a relationship with the church and the pastor as well.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And I should mention our team reached out to the pastor a number of times and he never responded. And Ryan's parents declined interview. but she was just very upset by the fact that the place that was so important, Shantae could receive such a, such a confession.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Sure. And I, You know, and I asked that question. This is somebody that you've been looking for for 18 months, right? The crime is brutal. And as soon as you got word, why didn't why weren't the police immediately called? Why was that allowed to happen? That in the end, he was kind of able to do things on his own terms to a degree. Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Being able to go home, his parents taking him to church, going to the sheriff's office rather than, you know, law enforcement coming in, carting him away. And that's the end of it.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
The investigators are very clear about that, too. It was, yes, we have the sketch. Yes, we now have this name. But that would not be enough to take into court. That wouldn't be enough to convict someone, certainly. So it led them to Ryan. But it was the fact that Ryan knew the things that only the killer would know. Right.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Like, yes, obviously, the DNA match was what really, really tied it together.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Absolutely. There's so much to even undertake a story that's as long as the things that we do for Dateline. You have to gather so much information, right? Like by the time we finish these stories, you feel like you're an expert on these cases. And so there are all these different facts and different pieces of sound and information that you want to cram in.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Brandon, first I'll say, one, thank you so much for the kind welcome. I really appreciate it. And this just goes to prove that our Dateline viewers are basically detectives in and of themselves. I mean, that's a fantastic question. So we never actually got a great answer to that. John, the boyfriend, Shantae's boyfriend, said that he had mentioned Ryan's name, but it never really went anywhere.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
We don't know the degree to which investigators went down that road.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Catherine, thank you for your question. A great question. Yes, that's what investigators believe. And so what happened was the Parabon image was released. Soon after that, Ryan, who had been at his parents' house, disappeared. After several days or so on the run, he came back and went to the church.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Oh, that's the most fun part about this. Whether it's on social media or the new phone number we have, I love hearing people's voices and actually asking the question. So more of that, please.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And it shows how closely she's paying attention because, yes, you did mention that in his childhood, he had this chihuahua that he would try and drown. But, you know, that is, yes, an early indicator. It starts with animals and then escalates from there.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Well, not only the church, but that's something that investigator Scott Bird said to me multiple times. Had it not been for the fact that they were able to find her as quickly as they did, they would not have been able to track down the killer without that evidence. So, yes, he is not shy about the fact that he believes that this was absolutely divine intervention.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
But even in two hours, somehow you run out of time. So that's why I'm grateful for talking Dateline, because we can talk about all of these other things that never made it into the actual show.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
That's so kind. I don't take that lightly. I really appreciate hearing from Linda. Thank you for that comment.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
I just, I have so much love for Michelle. My heart really, really goes out to her and to Stephen, Shantae's stepfather, for both of them to sit down and talk with us and trust us to tell Shantae's story in the right way, in a respectful way, really meant a lot. So thank you, Michelle, for that.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
You know, I've got to say the, a few hours before this episode aired on Friday, I got a text from the very first Dateline interview I ever did. It was Jolene and she was a sister-in-law of Heidi Furcus. And that was my story that aired in 2023. And yes, it will always stay with me. And I think all of these families will because
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
You know, when you do a story, to your point about the depth that we go to kind of know and understand the story, the case, but also the person, that kind of a connection isn't one that goes away quickly.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Thank you so much, Josh. This was one that will stay with me and an honor to do this one. Thank you, my friend.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
You know, I'd done a ton of research for this story, read about it, all of that good stuff, read previous, you know, news clips and everything. I hadn't actually seen the house for myself. And so I didn't see it until I was riding with the investigator, Investigator Bird. We had GoPros in the car and he was kind of driving me down the dirt roads. And then we get there.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And immediately I said, oh, wow. You can immediately see why this place is called The Haunted House. I mean, it looks right out of central casting of what you would expect to see a haunted house look like. All broken down inside. It looks like a horror movie. It does. It does. It does. And then you kind of consider some of the other things. I mean, there is a fence around it, right?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
That, you know, kind of tells people to keep out. If you go inside there, the floorboards aren't there. You can't really walk through. There are animals inside and creatures. And then there's this storm cellar, which... I wanted to when we were putting this together, we wanted to make sure that everyone understands what a storm cellar is. Right. I grew up in Oklahoma.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Everybody has storm cellars for the most part. Lots of people have them. But this kind of underground place where you go for tornadoes and even tornadoes. And so that's where Shantae was ultimately found. And so the place itself almost becomes a character in the story just because of how how creepy it was, to be honest.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And just to break down that isolation a little bit more, Dallas probably is the nearest big city, Dallas-Fort Worth. That's a good two and a half hour, maybe three hour drive from Brownwood. But then the place where this happened, where Shantae lived, is actually slightly to the north of Brownwood.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And so you have this kind of small town anyway, but then an even smaller community that's kind of nestled around the lakes. When you talk about a small community, I mean that everyone truly knows everyone there.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And I'm glad. I'm glad to hear that because everybody that I spoke to really said that exact same thing. I mean, she was feisty. She had her opinion. She had her thoughts. Her routine with the walking was unlike anything anyone had ever seen. She'd wave at the car. She'd wave at the neighbors, right? People knew her.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And when she would go into church, everyone was just kind of taken by just how involved she was. I mean, really how, how moved she was by the music, how much she enjoyed being there. And that's something that, that drew a lot of people to her as well.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Yeah. And, you know, when I talked with both of the, you know, Ranger Shea and Investigator Scott Byrd and both of them were just you could tell they were personally impacted by this case that they I mean, they put a lot of just kind of their own emotion and obviously brainpower into this.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
But when they talked about John, I mean, they talked about the fact that, yes, he saw her not too long before she disappeared. There were the people who said, OK, maybe they argued and maybe he was possessive and deleting of the text messages. And then, you know, we talk about this. He slept outside in his car after he realized that. Chante wasn't inside.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And that was something that struck them as odd. So there were these kind of string of just odd things that made them certainly go further down that rabbit hole.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
I'm glad that he was able to kind of tell his story, right? To, to, to in his own words, because he makes the point that even though he was cleared from, you know, by investigators pretty early on, a lot of the people in the community were looking at him and saying, okay, clearly it's John, clearly it's the boyfriend. Like that's the only way to go. And so, you know,
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
To have that hanging over his head until there was ultimately an arrest, which came more than a year later, was also something that was difficult for him as well. So I'm glad that he was able to talk. I'm glad he agreed to speak with us. How did you... Was it hard to get him? You know, well, one, I want to say something about sitting down and talking to him. John was so...
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
It was so clear that he was just still so impacted by everything that happened to Shantae. He left Brownwood for a while. He moved away. He got work elsewhere. You know, he's still close with her family today, by the way. But he had to leave. He just kind of couldn't necessarily deal with this for a while and then came back to talk.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
I asked him how he felt after the interview and he said he felt relieved. And so I think that he was glad to be able to tell his story, glad to be able to talk about his love for Shantae because it was something that had come under question during this investigation. It was something that even when I talked to him, I could tell he was still upset by it and rightfully so. Right.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
But but I could tell that, you know, him just talking about and being able to express that love was was important to him.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
So here's what's funny. I don't... Speaking of picking up things from your grandparents, Walker, Texas Ranger was my grandpa's one of his favorite shows. You guys remember that? Love that. And so after I finished my long interview with Ranger Shay, I said, I have to say, I was very excited to interview you today because I love Walker, Texas Ranger. And he just fell out laughing.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And so but I asked him, I said, I need to know about this hat. And he says, yes, it's part of the uniform. But here's the thing. They have to be a light color because in the old Westerns, dark color represents the bad guy. And so, yeah, the bad guy. So you have to have your light colored hat. He told me about it, gave me the specific name of it and everything.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
It brings so much character, though, right?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And I think you're absolutely right. Yes, those was kind of a roadmap of their actual investigation. But what was so frustrating? And this is something that Investigator Bird kept coming back to when he talked to me. It was so frustrating because he had the killer's DNA right there in his hand. I mean, it's the best evidence you can use to identify someone, but I don't know who it is.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
So he said at one point they were so frustrated. They said, we're just going to set up at this kind of four-way stop sign and just ask everybody who passes for DNA.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
It paid off. It absolutely paid off. And talking with Investigator Byrd, there were several things that he believes really lined up. One of them is that with this, they choose an age of what they're going to make the sketch look like. And it was within a year of Ryan Riggs' actual age. And so had they chosen, I don't know, a 75-year-old man or something, it obviously wouldn't have looked like him.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Two, though, they talk about going through pictures, and this was one of the pictures on his Facebook page, believe it or not, that actually looked almost exactly like that.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Absolutely. I mean, I think probably one of the strongest examples of that is when they're talking with Ryan at the end, after he's done this confession in church, which was stunning in and of itself, the way that he is just so casually describing what he did to Shantae, not seeming to flinch, not seeming upset. That's something that you have to see, I think, to get the full effect of that.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Absolutely is. There is nobody I would rather do this Talking Dateline with than you, Josh. So thank you.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
They really did. I think also when you juxtapose, we talked about the haunted house being a character. The church in its own way was also a character, right? Because you have this house of evil, the haunted house. But then at the end, the confession happens in the house of worship, right? Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
I think that especially when you talk with the Lamans, I mean, they were scarred by what happened there in church, by what happened, what was supposed to be this kind of safe sanctuary of a space. And so some of that evil did infiltrate the church as well.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And I can tee it up real quick. I am very glad that we talked with the Lamans, Russell and Linda, and appreciative to them for speaking with us because this is something that clearly still upsets them today. You know, they're both people of very deep faith, very deep Christian faith. He was a leader in the church.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And so to kind of have this, we love, we forgive, but also we love Chante and you did a terrible thing to her. How do you kind of... marry those two thoughts. So anyway, they talk about it a little bit more in this piece, in this clip here. You've gone through a lot from mourning the death of someone who was like a family member to months of not knowing to now these conflicted emotions.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
As you sit here today, how has this whole experience changed you?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Linda, I'd ask you the same question. How has this whole experience changed you?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
I think that that section of interview could be very difficult for a lot of people to listen to, of course, not least of all Shantae's family. But this notion of when you kind of look at the context of how Ryan was... able to go in front of his church, confess, have people in some way show support, and then proceed on to the sheriff's office and confess there and face the consequences.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Well, no, watching you, I could tell just where your heart was in this story. And I think that you just did a really beautiful job with it.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Everyone says it and I completely believe it. So thank you for that. And thank you for, thank you for this. This episode was just, it was moving in so many ways, truly. Okay. And after the break, we will be back to answer viewer and listener questions from social media. We've got some social media questions. There were a lot of reactions to this. So I'll just read through a few.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Ronnie Brock says, how could the police wait five years to follow up on a man who tells them he was there? Police could have gone to his home and found the jacket and pants he was wearing that day. That's, I mean, it's something we talked about.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Okay. Jerry Lynn wrote on Facebook, how high off the ground was that bridge? 63 feet. 63 feet. Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
I am sure. Yeah. I have to say, I have, I actually have a fear of heights. It comes and goes, but it would definitely would have, I couldn't have done it. You wouldn't like it. No, you would not like this.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
We would have had to come up with a different way to shoot that if I could not have been up there. So my hat's off to you because that was amazing. Okay. Daniel Welcher on Facebook says, did Richard Allen have any criminal record before this? No. None.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And then we have an audio question from Gracie Donaldson Cipriano. Let's listen.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
I remember that line. And I thought the exact same thing. I mean, was it as high as it seemed?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Just bizarre. It's so strange too, because you're absolutely right. You want that resolution at the end, but no, it's in the truest sense, a senseless crime. Well, Andrea, we have talked a lot of Dateline today. Thank you so much. This was just a fascinating conversation as always. Thank you. And that's it for Talking Dateline this week.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can always reach us 24-7 on social media at DatelineNBC. And exciting news, you can now submit your questions over the phone. Just call 212-413-5252. And leave a message with your question about Dateline and our episodes for a chance to be featured on Talking Dateline.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And also remember to check out Keith's brand new podcast, Murder in the Moonlight. It's about a double murder in the Great Plains and an investigation that came down to one single shiny clue. And as of today, Dateline premium subscribers can binge the entire series, and episodes one through four are available for everyone else.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And of course, we'll see you this Friday on Dateline on NBC for my very first show as a full-time Dateline correspondent. Thanks so much for listening.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
There was a lot that was really memorable about this episode, but I have to say that almost as soon as you introduced Libby's grandparents, Mike and Becky, my heart just went out to them because I can't imagine just this feeling of like, hey, they were just having a sleepover at the house. Yeah. And then the next day they're gone.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Talk to me about what it was like just having that conversation with them.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
To recap, in 2017, two schoolgirls, Libby German and Abby Williams, were found murdered in the woods of Delphi, Indiana, near an abandoned railway bridge. For years, the case went unsolved and police were at a standstill except for one clue— A grainy picture and a gravelly voice captured on Libby's phone right before the murders.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Of course, of course. Oh gosh, that's just so, so heartbreaking. I'm curious, did you or did anybody from our Dateline team, did anyone speak to Abby's family?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
what they went through. Absolutely. Absolutely understandable. You know, let's talk about this investigation. I think, Andrea, for stories like this that so many of us follow kind of almost in real time, I'm almost even more fascinated to watch the Dateline episode because I think that I know a lot about a case and then the episode brings forth some more that I didn't know.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And the thing that I think all of us remember is that eerie recording from Libby's phone. They have this image now of the murderer, his voice, and really the girls helped bring down their own killer.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Hi, everyone. I'm Blayne Alexander, and today we are talking Dateline. I'm joined today by Andrea Canning to discuss her latest episode, A Walk Through the Woods. If you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed. So go there and listen to it or stream it on Peacock and then come back here.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
I'm curious, you know, one of the things that we heard was that recording and the words down the hill, right? And correct me if I'm wrong, but that was the only portion that was released. I didn't realize that they actually had, what, 43 seconds, you said, of audio?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Well, I have another question about that. I wonder, did the video lead investigators astray at all? I mean, it led to people kind of pointing fingers at friends, acquaintances online, just anyone that they could think about that even slightly resembled Bridge Guy.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
It would turn out to be a very big clue that helped solve the girls' murders. For this episode, Andrea is going to share a podcast-exclusive clip from her interview with the case's prosecutor, Nick McCleland. Then we'll answer viewer and listener questions from social media. All right, let's talk Dateline. Hey, Blaine. Hi, Andrea. How are you? I'm good. Thank you. This was a tough one for me.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
That is unbelievable. Before we go further into Richard Allen, something that was really interesting about this episode to me, there were obviously alternate suspects. Let's talk about Anthony Schatz or Kagan Klein. That was a journey. That was interesting.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Yes, absolutely. It was. First, I want to say I loved that we had these interviews that like Court TV reporter had done, like WTHR. Yeah. I mean, to have that interview with the guy whose real picture it was while he was working out on a workout machine.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Can I just say I appreciate the multitasking. Okay. He said, no excuses. We're getting it in today. I know.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
I just want to go on the record and say, next time we do a talking date line, perhaps we could do it from the Peloton.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
No excuses to not work out here. But that whole- whole episode with Anthony Schatz, Kagan Klein. I mean, that really was, yes, talk about a red herring. But I'm sure that when detectives kind of found those conversations with Libby, they were like, okay, this is it. Case closed. We got a guy.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And it just didn't happen. I would imagine this had a tremendous impact on this community.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And you know, everybody, that's the creepy thing. You feel like you know everybody. So now you're looking and it's like, okay, these people that I know is one of you guys, like, are we in the same restaurant with the person who did this?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
They would have just like... Yelled at you and probably kept going.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
OK, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, Andrea is going to share a podcast exclusive clip from her interview with the prosecutor in this case, Nick McCleland. Let's talk about the trial.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
I can only imagine. I want to dive into that because this was one of those stories that... You know, a lot of our Dateline cases for viewers and even for us, they're brand new, right? You haven't heard about them before we bring them the episodes. This was something that we all kind of watched play out from beginning to end, right? Like I remember having friends cover this. I remember watching it.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And before we can talk about the trial, of course, we have to talk about the pretrial hearing and kind of the judge ruling that the defense could not introduce this alternate theory that the murders were tied to Odinism. First, talk about what that was. And that was a tremendous blow to the defense.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Sure. So who knows? And so having that not be allowed in, I mean, that kind of upends their defense in a way, right? Like they have to go on trial in a very... In a different posture.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
That's really interesting. Something that stood out to me was, I believe it was his defense attorney who was basically saying, hey, when you talk about matching the physical description. He's wearing what? Jeans and a Carhartt jacket. Like everybody's wearing jeans and Carhartt jacket. Yeah, Carhartt hoodie.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And when the cell phone video was released, all of that, there's a lot to dive into. I want to start with just where this actually occurred, that bridge. It was already an eerie kind of setting for a crime like this, right? Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
So I wonder about those just kind of differences or the kind of the pushback of like, does he exactly match the description of this guy?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Yeah. Nick McCleland, the prosecutor, talking about what it was like waiting for the jury to come back with a verdict.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Do you find that there is still, even though he's been convicted, is there still some doubt about this in the town? Like, where do people land on where the verdict?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Before we wrap up this portion of our conversation, Andrea, I want to circle back to something that you said at the beginning of just how difficult this case was, the story was for you to cover personally. And I mean, I wanted to ask you about that. I know that you are a mom, you are a girl mom.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And you even mentioned that for a bit in the episode of just the similarity in ages with two of your girls. How did you kind of make your way through this story?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
This was an interesting one. Blaine, thank you. Absolutely. So good to be with you, my friend.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
You know, we kind of commented at some point that viewers will need literally a notepad to write down all of the people and how they're related and arrows and kind of like a playbook, right? Because once we get into this and once we really start diving into this marriage and then there is another woman and then there's another man and how are all these people connected?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
It takes a lot to kind of pull together this very convoluted motive. But yes, from the very beginning, investigators looked at Scott and said, what in the world is up with this guy? I mean, this man was somebody who is military trained. He's a tall gentleman. He was carrying a firearm at the time. Not only is he proficient in firearm use, but he had a gun on him.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
And they're wondering why not go into the house. And, you know, when I spoke with Detective Johnson and a number of people were saying, listen, if I thought that there was something wrong with somebody that I cared about in the house, there's not a force on earth that would stop me from going inside.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
And yes, and military trained, right? So that screamed suspicion from the second they got to the crime scene. And then the suspicion only grew. There was the scene, and I think that this was something that really struck with a lot of people, but where he was talking to himself in the interview room and telling himself to stay calm and keep cool. You know, the red flags were just piling up, right?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
Yeah, it's interesting because nobody knows how you're going to act if you find yourself in a police interrogation room, right? Hopefully you or I never find ourselves in that situation. But if we did and we didn't do it, you would think that you wouldn't have to kind of whisper to yourself to stay calm and to keep it together.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
Yeah, it came up in several ways. And so he was deployed to Iraq. He spent time in Iraq, served in Iraq. And afterwards, one of Desiree's friends said, you know, this is somebody that she had known since middle school. And she said that he seemed to be acting different.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
But also when I asked one of the friends about perhaps, you know, he's seen a lot of things that you or I or most of us have never seen on the battlefield before. Was his response just kind of a downplayed response when he found out that his wife was killed? Because he had seen so many things. Was this a defense mechanism? Was this somebody who was just naturally stoic?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
And she said that she believed that, yeah, that's kind of who he was to a degree.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
Yeah, we spoke to three friends who have known Desiree through almost her entire lifespan, going back from middle school through high school to early marriage to, I mean, the day she was killed, right? Some think that, yes, there was a conspiracy to get her out of the way. Others are just like, you brought this woman and who brought this man into Desiree's life and all of it ended with her dead.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
So you bear some responsibility as well. But again, never charged.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
When I asked the investigator about that moment, of course, that was a big turning point for them, right? Because it was okay, you're out with family, you're staying with family. Wait, now we have a new name. Okay, and wait, it's a woman's name. Okay, and wait, you stayed at her house, right? So suddenly this kind of kicks things into a whole different level.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
And as you know, investigators then have to spin off on Let's dig deeper into this marriage.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
And one of the big pieces in this whole thing, Josh, is what exactly... was this relationship, right? Scott and Paige made it seem as though everybody's happy. This is kind of a cozy little throuple, if you will. But then when you look at those text messages, it was very clear. Desiree at some point grew tired of Paige being in their relationship.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
She was very concerned about her marriage to Scott. When I spoke with her friend, Michelle, you know, they would go on walks around the school. And that was something that came up often in their walks, just concerns about the health of her relationship and not being able to talk to her husband about it. And I should mention, too, we reached out to Scott.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
We tried a number of ways to get him to talk with us. He would not. He's remarried now and didn't want to talk to us for this episode.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
Well, And this is this is an important nuance. And so Scott was in basic training when Desiree had her infidelity. It was before he was deployed to Iraq. It was also before they were married. And so I put that in there because it's, you know, not apples to apples. Nobody should cheat on anybody.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
She ultimately was. You know, the text messages, I have to say what Paige said, one, she said that she didn't remember it clearly, but she said what she believes was that they were talking about life insurance or arrangements or something like that. And then I pushed her on that. I said, you know, we have all of the 40 pages of text messages or something.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
The context before, the context after has nothing to do with life insurance or anything like that. It kind of goes on to talk about Desiree saying she would be upset if there were anything sexual that were to happen between her husband and Paige, or if they were together. In talking to Paige, Paige says that it was actually Desiree who invited her to live with them.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
I think that diving into those text messages, there was a portion in there where, though they never explicitly said it, certainly kind of alludes to the fact that there was a... more than platonic interaction between Paige and Desiree at some point. But it's also very clear that this wasn't an ongoing, long-lasting relationship between the two of them.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
Good point. One, not everybody is as savvy as you are, Josh Mankiewicz. Not many people might have thought to go in and say, hey, I need an attorney.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
That is very true. But, you know, in talking with Paige about this and questioning her a number of different ways about this, she says and maintains and believes that she put her safety on the line to essentially help bring Desiree's killer to justice. That because she ratted on Marty, spoke about Marty, turned him in, that he has reason to be angry with her.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
He's going to be getting out of prison in a few years. And so, you know, she is concerned about that.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
Considering the fact that he will be out in several years, are you concerned personally about Marty getting out of prison?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
Even though he was doing so many things for you, even though he was a friend, he was helping you in so many ways, was your savior in many ways?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
Pitch, I asked her about this, right? I said, what would you describe him as? Friend? I mean, they were coworkers. They worked at the same place. Her mother had actually set her up on a blind date with Marty. Thought that this was a stable guy. He's making money. Might be a good guy for you. She said, okay. She was doing her daughterly duty, as she put it.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
went out on a date and then kind of thought, okay, great, it's over, bye. Marty didn't see it that way, according to Paige. And so that plus the fact that they worked together, she said she was trying to make things not awkward. And so when he would say hi, she'd kind of keep going and talking with him. But that kept growing.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
But what's interesting is Paige said that at some point she was in a very difficult situation that she was trying to leave, whether it was a relationship, I'm not sure, but just a difficult situation. And Marty was giving her the money to do that, right? Like helping her financially, helping her make a deposit on a new apartment, right?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
helping her with gas money, helping with groceries, with the car, things that she couldn't have done on her own. And she said, because she was so desperate at first, she was uncomfortable with it, but you know, always the arrangement was, Hey, I'll pay you back. She says she did pay him back for some of that. But again, it, All of it goes beyond the normal kind of scale of a friendship.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
And even though he was married, even though he got married.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
Well, she is. I mean, it's, you know, I wondered if there was any point at which she was disturbed with this relationship. And she said, I mean, he would say things like, you know, I would do anything for you or, you know, his undying love. He professed his undying love for her, those types of things. I said, how did that make you feel?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
Yeah, yeah, yeah. She said that to police. And so, you know, that brings forth just the questions of how did you feel in all of that? And she said, yes, it was awkward. It was weird. But at some time, I mean, at many times, he was literally the only person she had to turn to. You know, she was a single mom at this point. She says she didn't have many friends, any other friends.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
Yeah, I did, too. From the beginning, she was very concerned about Paige. And by concerned, I mean Marty made Paige the best man, quote unquote, in the wedding. Beth didn't like that.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
And Desiree did. And she was already kind of seeing, OK, there's this other woman. But amidst all of those things, never did Beth and in her telling to me, never did she think that police were going to show up on her doorstep and say, hey, we're arresting your husband for murder or questioning him, then arresting him for murder. Right. So that was something that completely caught her off guard.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
Understandably, obviously, she's divorced him now. She's moved on. She's got a new boyfriend. But she said this was a very difficult thing for her to get through, to get over afterwards when she just kind of thought about her own judgment and all of this and how she was, like you said, unwittingly brought into all of this.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
You kind of anticipate the arguments they're going to have. And so it really is just an interesting way of going into a conversation and, you know, thinking about all the different angles they're going to throw at you.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Absolutely. There are a lot of just kind of like still, I guess, hanging chads in this story. Right. You know, the sentencing phase. I do want to ask you, though, about the deliberation. Five days.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Yeah. Yeah. And there's nothing to change that. Josh, we are going to talk about questions from social media. A lot of people had thoughts about this episode. So we've got that coming up.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Okay, we're back. And Josh, we have a couple of audio questions this week. First up, let's hear from Amy Brownstein Berry on Facebook. Here's what she had to say.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Interesting. Do people keep them? I mean, obviously they're in your shirt, but do you keep them just in your pockets? Are they usually found loose in your pocket somewhere?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
OK, this is a fun question. Jabour Estefan on Facebook asked, has anyone ever said to Josh, bro, the defense attorney called you, bro. Have you ever been called bro in an interview before? I noted that one, too.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Okay, we've got another audio question. This one is from Amanda Lechman DePaulis on Facebook. Let's take a listen.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Well, lots of audio questions. I love the audio questions, by the way. This is a lot of fun to hear, to hear actually from people's voices.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Here's something that was funny, Josh, that people notice. And I have to admit that I noticed this one too. Fans notice just how tall Sergeant Dittmer is. When you guys were kind of walking side by side, I think down the street, Sylvia NYC wrote on X, I don't think I've ever seen anyone tower over Josh Mankiewicz on Dateline. So what was what was the deal there? How tall was this gentleman?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Josh, this was a fascinating episode. And it's always good to talk Dateline with you, my friend. Thank you.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
That's it for Talking Dateline for this week. Remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can always reach us 24-7 on social media at DatelineNBC. And if you'd like to hear your voice on an upcoming episode of Talking Dateline, please send your questions as an audio file. We cannot wait to hear from you.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
And Keith's got a brand new podcast, Murder in the Moonlight. When a couple is found shot to death in their quiet farmhouse on America's Great Plains, The investigation includes four suspects, spans three states, and comes down to a single shiny clue, a gold ring found at the scene of the crime.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Follow Murder in the Moonlight now and get two new episodes a week starting February 17th completely free. Or subscribe to Dateline Premium to start listening now. Premium subscribers get early access and ad-free listening. And as always, we will see you on Fridays on Dateline on NBC. Thanks for listening.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Well, let's talk about San Francisco. I mean, this really kind of provoked a very strong response about the city. It's fair to say this kind of shook the area and people far beyond it as well.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
And, you know, you talked about, of course, in the story that like he still had his wallet, he still had his watch. So that was pretty quickly kind of disproven.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
One thing that really stood out to me in this story, Josh, there was so much video. I mean, obviously, we had, yes, a video of him stumbling after he was stabbed. But the video of his final moments before that, I mean, the, you know, accused killer allegedly demonstrating his crime, like, oh. All of these different things.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Now, just to recap, when tech executive Bob Lee was fatally stabbed in 2023 on the streets of San Francisco, concerns grew over violence in the city. Investigators discovered that the crime was actually far more personal, involving the suspected killer's sister, allegations of sexual abuse, and a rather convoluted theory of the potential motive.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
It's like exactly like you said, like you look at one of those pictures. It's like, do you see a woman with a shawl or do you see a dog with a smile? Right. Like, what are you seeing? Let's talk about Bob Lee. I love the way that you unfolded it. I mean, first, of course, you talk about who he was to his family. And then it's like, ah, yes, here's who he was, you know, in the bigger sense.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
For a lot of us, it's like, oh, my God, that's the guy who founded Cash App. That's immediately what a lot of people go to because it's somebody whose influence was certainly felt by by all of us in some way.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
I have to say I have a new favorite term from this episode. Code play hard. I mean, it was one of those things where I heard it. I was like, oh, that I have a surprisingly clear picture of exactly the type of lifestyle you're talking about right now when he said that. Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Well, for this talking dateline, we also have an extra clip about the star witness in the trial, Kazar Momini, and what it was like for Bob Lee's brother to watch her take the stand and defend the man accused of killing him. All right, Josh, let's talk Dateline. How are you doing? I am good, my friend. How are you doing? Good, good. Great to see you.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
I'm curious, as you were going through your interviews and talking about people who knew Bob and also who were in that culture, did you find that anybody was hesitant to kind of dive into that?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Hi, everyone. It's Blaine Alexander and we are talking Dateline. I'm joined today by Josh Mankiewicz to discuss his episode Under the Bay Bridge. Now, if you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed. So make sure to go there, listen to it or stream it on Peacock and then come right back here.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
You know, I think that, you know, we got a beautiful picture, though, of the duality of Bob's life, right? Because we heard from Crystal Lee, like you said, and then we heard from their two kids, right? How he was just this truly loving dad, like some real concrete examples of how he taught them things, doting on his kids.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Yeah. You know, you get a real sense of loss, I think, from the kids. They added a lot. When we get back, Bob Lee's brother thought Nima Momeni's testimony was outrageous. But what did he make of the accused killer's sister on the stand? We've got an extra clip from Josh's interview with Oliver Lee coming up. I want to talk about Kazar Momeni.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
I think it's very fair to say that Kazar Momeni was one of those unforgettable characters. She was so interesting. She became a key part, but it was very clear that she wanted nothing to do with this trial.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
So my first question, actually, this one came to me as I was watching. A lot of time in the Dateline world, our stories don't necessarily make national news before we air them on Dateline, right? Right. Our audience is hearing about them for the very first time when we bring them the story. This was clearly the opposite. This is a story that I remember when it first happened.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
I mean, you illustrate it right there, like Nima's defense attorney, who, by the way, is being paid for by Kazar, right? Says, don't believe a word she has to say. Don't don't believe anything.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
While we're on the subject of Kazar, a lot of people had thoughts about her, clearly, including Bob Lee's family. So we have an extra clip of Bob Lee's brother, Oliver Lee, talking about his impressions of Kazar Momini.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
I remember watching it. We covered it so heavily on NBC. How does that change your process, either the storytelling process or even just kind of how does that impact when you're trying to get people to do interviews with you?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
You know, when you look at kind of the Momini family as a unit, and I'm so glad that we heard from the mother in all of this too, what Krista said at the end just kind of angry at the family in its entirety. I will never forgive this family for what they did to Bob.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
I thought that that was really interesting, but I also, it made me, it made me wonder, was there ever any talk of anyone else being, you know, facing charges and all this as an accomplice or anything?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
I want to ask you about the defense attorney, because one, I love the back and forth between the two of you guys. Obviously, you held your own. It was it was interesting. As soon as you introduced him and said he came from Miami to help with this case, I said, aha, Miami like that. You know, just kind of he seems like an attorney who came from Miami.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
But it was, you know, for our listeners who watched the episode and who are listening to us right now, one, it was a masterclass in how to do those types of interviews, right? Because I think for people who kind of see the end product of Dateline, when we're prepping for these, there's a lot of, you know, the story in and out. So you anticipate what your interviewee is going to say.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigators found a rusty lawnmower blade near her body. It was covered in blood.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
There were deep cuts on Shantae's scalp and face, bruises on both sides of her neck, her arms and legs, and something odd on her chest.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
An autopsy revealed Shantae had died from blunt force trauma consistent with that bloody lawnmower blade. She had also been sexually assaulted.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Crime scene techs collected evidence at the scene and sent it out for DNA testing, hoping it would lead them to Shantae's killer.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Alicia Bird is Investigator Bird's wife. She is also the county's assistant DA.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
When she saw a photo of that mark on Shantae's chest and considered that the murder happened on Friday the 13th, a theory started to take shape.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Maybe that could explain the why, if only they could figure out the who. Right away, Investigator Bird knew who he wanted to look at first.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Charlie Radel and Jackie Neal, the searchers who found Shantae.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
So you're thinking, we found who did this, and they gave themselves away.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Time to head to the sheriff's office for questioning. What might a polygraph reveal?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
The search for Shantae had ended, but the hunt for her killer was just getting underway. To start, investigators wanted to take a hard look at Charlie Radel and his girlfriend Jackie, the searchers who found Shantay.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
It seemed so unlikely that they just got lucky. The house is so remote, it's almost impossible to find, even with GPS. It's on a dirt road off of another dirt road.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
But one night, the horror became real. This was the scene of a crime so evil it haunted an entire community and made neighbor doubt neighbor. Everybody was a suspect.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Charlie and Jackie were both in their 40s, and they both knew Shantae from her daily walks in the neighborhood. She lived about a mile away from them.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
investigators took note of Charlie's emotion at the scene and invited him to the sheriff's office to see how he would answer questions there. Charlie told the investigator he'd just seen Shantae out walking not long before she disappeared.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Charlie said that as soon as they heard a search was being organized, he and Jackie jumped in the truck and hit the country roads.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Then, he said, they came upon that dirt road, the one leading to the haunted house.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
After looking around the dilapidated house, he said he decided to check the storm cellar. That's where he found Shantae's body.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
They also interviewed Jackie. The investigator asked her where Charlie was on Friday the 13th, the night Shantae disappeared.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
The search for justice would lead to a different house, a house of worship. Had evil made its way there too? For the congregation of North Lake Community Church, this simple building was a refuge, a place to sing and worship in peace, a haven for people like Shantae Blankenship.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Charlie also agreed to a polygraph. How hard did law enforcement press Charlie?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
While investigators searched for Shantae's killer, her family was facing the difficult task of planning her funeral. mourners gathered for the service at her beloved church.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Did you feel the love that this community had for your daughter? I did. I did. Did you ever consider the possibility that her killer might be right there in the room, in the church with you? I didn't. She didn't, but investigators did. They rigged up surveillance cameras inside the church. You thought that it was important to see who was coming, who was going.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
They also set up cameras at the cemetery by Shantae's grave.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
But after scrubbing through hours of video, investigators didn't find anything suspicious. Still, they were convinced Shantae's killer had to be close by, almost certainly someone she knew.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
So they would have to look at everyone in Shantae's circle, starting with the man closest to her.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
In the days after Shantae's body was found, her family and friends tried to come to terms with her savage murder. I know that you'd said at some point, even after she was found, There were days when you almost still expected to see her on those walks.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Was it hard for you to grasp that reality when you traveled down that road? Yes, because—
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
And as investigators looked for Shantae's killer, those closest to her were under scrutiny.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
John Adams, Shantae's live-in boyfriend. At 26, he was a year older than Shantae. They'd known each other since middle school, had been a couple for more than three years. They were even starting to talk about marriage. John meant a lot to her. She meant a lot to him. That's what mattered to Shantae's family. They made it clear to John that Shantae was special and needed to be protected.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Two days after Shantae's body was found, investigators paid John a visit. Hello. Hello. John recognized the deputy from a traffic stop.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Can we have this brush? Took pictures and examined Shantae's belongings. Just gonna dump this out.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Then they went back outside. That's when they let John know they weren't just looking for clues. They were looking at him.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
What is that on that hammer? Is that from pulling out nails or something? They took pictures of John's pickup truck and were interested to see a lot of lawnmowers in the shed. Man, do you guys have a lawn care service? Remember, it was a lawnmower blade that killed Shantae. They also wanted to know about John's relationship with Shantae.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigators had heard it was loving, but could be tense at times. It was strained.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Shantae was 25 and lived with her grandfather and boyfriend in a community on Lake Brownwood in Central Texas. Linda and Russell Lamond met Shantae at church. Russell was the assistant pastor. He and his wife took Shantae under their wing when she started showing up with a notebook and her own Bible.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Did you ever learn that Shantae had complained to neighbors about John sometimes wanting to control her?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
But Bitsy Hobbs, one of Shantae's friends, told investigators she heard the couple fighting. Shantae sounded angry.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
But they were about to find out. They had a stack of questions for John Adams. For starters, what did he do with his phone?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
John Adams seemed like a friendly guy when he met investigators. Who lives here?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
John said that around 5 p.m., he picked Shantae up at the restaurant where neighbors had seen her that afternoon. So he picked her up and took her to where?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
John said he then went to work at his restaurant job around 6 p.m.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
He said he worked an overnight shift and got home around 5 the next morning. Shantae wasn't there. He thought maybe she was at a friend's place.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
But investigators found something while searching his cell phone data.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
This time, the conversation was less friendly on both sides.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
John admitted he was trying to hide something, but not about Shantae.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
We interviewed him, too, and asked him what it was like to be grilled like that. You could tell that when they were talking to you, they weren't just trying to get information. They were thinking that you had something to do with it.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
He told us the same thing he told investigators. His relationship with Shantae was not perfect, but it was solid. Were there ever any rocky moments?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
It wasn't just investigators. John knew neighbors were quick to assume the boyfriend was to blame. But he told us what some saw as controlling behavior was his way of protecting Shantae. Already people were starting to point their fingers at you.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigators needed to check out everything John told them, including what he said about other men in town, like a guy named Bobby Sosa, who John said liked to throw parties.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Shantae's friend told investigators she'd seen a red and white Bronco in the neighborhood the night Shantae disappeared, that the driver waved at them and seemed creepy. They tracked down Sosa and confirmed he drove a red and white Bronco and brought him in for questioning at the sheriff's office. Sosa said he did drive by Shantae on her walk that night, but that was it.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Neighbors could count on seeing Shantae every day as she strolled her neighborhood by the lake. Friday, May 13, 2016, was no different, except that evening, Shantae went out for a walk and didn't come home. Her grandfather called Shantae's mom, Michelle McDaniel.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
The pressure to find Shantae's killer was mounting. We just know that they're out there. It's scary. You were preparing for a manhunt.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
It would all come to a head in a place they least expected.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
That place that Shantae loved most of all. We want to hate you, but we can't. John Adams, Shantae's serious boyfriend, was an obvious person to look at, even more so after investigators found out he'd been deleting text messages from his phone. Investigators checked out his story and confirmed those deleted text messages were just about marijuana.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
They were also able to get security video from the restaurant where John worked, along with the timesheets.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
I want to ask you, John, what do you miss the most about Shantae?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
John, as a suspect, was a dead end. But that didn't mean talking to him was a waste of time. Not at all.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
John gave them another name, a name they heard from other neighbors, Colin Smith.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Colin was in his 20s, did some lawn mowing and odd jobs around town, and he lived just around the corner from Shantae.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
And Shantae's stepdad, Stephen, recalls that months before the murder, Colin took Shantae out for a late-night joyride. Stephen was furious. What did you say?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Shantae also told her friend Colin wanted to meet up the night she disappeared.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Shantae's mother wasn't too worried at first, but as the hours ticked by, that changed. He told me she still wasn't home. The next day, her mom went to the house, took a look around, and saw that her purse was still there.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
That very well meant that Colin could have been the last person to see her alive.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Shea went to see him in person. How you doing, sir? I'm Jason Shea. I'm with the Texas Rangers. What's your name? Colin. How did you find him? Did he seem shifty to you?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Like other neighbors investigators spoke to, Colin said he did see Shantae the night she disappeared, but only from a distance. He'd seen her pass by his house on her last walk.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Shantae was just a friend, Collins said. But he told investigators that she was interested in more than friendship.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
investigators wanted to ask him more questions, this time hooked up to a lie detector. Why are we here today, Colin?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
But right before they got started, a key part of his story changed. He admitted he did have a physical relationship with Shantae.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Colin told police he didn't know Shantae and John were serious.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Was that the only thing he'd been hiding? Wired up to the machine, the questions got very specific. Did you physically cause the death of Shantae?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
The investigator told Colin the results of the tests were not good.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Colin, who'd been cooperative up to this point, seemed eager to leave.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Colin stayed long enough to give them his alibi. He'd been at his brother's house, he said, about 10 miles away.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Would Colin's alibi check out? Or would police be forced to consider a whole new theory?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigators thought they might finally be getting somewhere. In a room with a young man they found highly suspicious. Colin Smith was my main focus. Colin had initially lied to detectives about his relationship with Shantae. And when they hooked him up to that polygraph, it seemed he still wasn't telling the whole story.
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The Haunted House Confession
Investigators raced to talk to Collins' brother before he could, and the brother confirmed his alibi.
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The Haunted House Confession
They also talked to his niece and nephew, who said they saw Colin, too.
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The Haunted House Confession
Investigators also took Colin's DNA and sent it to the crime lab. How does that come back?
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The Haunted House Confession
Another dead end. By now, DNA results were coming in from the other men they'd talked to. Shantae's boyfriend, John, was not a match. Neither was neighbor Bobby Sosa.
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The Haunted House Confession
And the DNA also proved those searchers who found Shantae were exactly what they appeared to be, good Samaritans. Far from suspects, they had been a blessing to the investigation.
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The Haunted House Confession
The timely discovery of Shantae's body was a stroke of luck that, to investigator Bird, felt like divine intervention. But that luck seemed to be running out as they tore through lead after lead. How many calls were coming in that you guys had to chase down?
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The Haunted House Confession
Investigators collected samples from at least two dozen men, including Shantae's grandfather, Charlie. It seemed unthinkable the doting Charlie could be the killer, but Shantae's mom was in favor of testing him. You thought he could have possibly been involved?
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The Haunted House Confession
It wasn't the grandfather. And it also wasn't anyone in CODIS, the National Law Enforcement DNA Database. Back to square one.
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The Haunted House Confession
Heart-wrenching for everyone in Shantae's quiet lakeside neighborhood. As weeks went by, and then months.
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The Haunted House Confession
The family reported her missing to the sheriff. And in a community this close, word spread quickly. A search was organized after church on Sunday. Were you surprised by how many people turned out to search?
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The Haunted House Confession
At Shantae's church, parishioners were desperate for answers.
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The Haunted House Confession
And because no one was above suspicion, investigators even wondered about the pastor himself.
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The Haunted House Confession
That went nowhere. And while authorities suspected the killer was someone Shantay knew, they couldn't rule out other theories. Did you ever consider the possibility that you were dealing with a serial killer?
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The Haunted House Confession
Alicia Bird was still thinking about that strange symbol on Shantae's chest. What could it mean?
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The Haunted House Confession
Investigator Bird's wife could see the case was weighing heavily on her husband.
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The Haunted House Confession
Desperate for answers, Chante's stepfather admits he badgered his neighbors.
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The Haunted House Confession
What she didn't know was that Investigator Bird was about to take a leap of faith with a cutting-edge technology. Maybe this would reveal the face of the killer.
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The Haunted House Confession
One year after Shantae was murdered, her mom organized a memorial. Friends and family came together and walked Shantae's route. Everybody was out of breath. We didn't know how she did it. But that was her thing.
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The Haunted House Confession
Those were difficult days for everyone. Those who loved her spent hours by her grave, the stone inscribed, singing in the angels' choir. Her stepfather, Stephen, was grieving and feeling guilty. Before she went missing, he told Shantae he might take her fishing on that Friday. Instead, he picked up an extra shift at work.
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The Haunted House Confession
Despite all the leads the investigators had run down, Shantae's killer was still out there. Now, like a losing football team, they were ready for a Hail Mary.
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The Haunted House Confession
Bird felt incredibly frustrated. He couldn't crack the case, even though he had the killer's DNA.
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The Haunted House Confession
So what you have in your hand is quite possibly the best piece of evidence in terms of identifying someone, but no name.
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The Haunted House Confession
Then Bird heard about a new DNA technique his department had never used. The process is called phenotyping. It uses DNA to predict the way a person looks, eye, hair, and skin color, among other things. Back in 2017, it was a shiny new tool for law enforcement.
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The Haunted House Confession
Bird Googled it and called around. So you're hearing success stories. Correct. And thinking, this could work for us too.
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The Haunted House Confession
But when the investigator ran it by others, he hit a wall of skepticism, including his wife Alicia in the district attorney's office.
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The Haunted House Confession
More money for an investigation that was already one of the most expensive this sheriff's office had ever done. Michael Murray is the Brown County District Attorney. Did you have concerns about whether or not this would even be admissible in court? Right.
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The Haunted House Confession
Finally, they all agreed. It was time for that Hail Mary. They got the money, and the DNA was submitted to a lab owned by a Virginia tech company called Parabon. You thought, there goes $3,600 down the drain?
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The Haunted House Confession
Five months later, Investigator Bird got an email. It was late afternoon.
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The Haunted House Confession
Did you think that it looked like a person? I mean, did it seem like, hey, this could lead us somewhere?
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The Haunted House Confession
Not exactly the miracle they were hoping for. Still, they posted it on social media and pinned their hopes on the public. The chance that somebody out there just might recognize this face.
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The Haunted House Confession
It was Sunday afternoon. Shantae had been missing almost 48 hours.
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The Haunted House Confession
But it didn't ring a bell for Destiny either. To me, looks like any dude... picture you know everyone felt defeated then michelle got a call from another member of the family shantay's half brother he saw something others didn't and gave his mother a name to look up my heart hit the floor and i remember crying and i turned and i said this is him At first, the Parabon sketch felt like a big dud.
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The Haunted House Confession
Police posted it on social media and showed it to the family, but nothing. Then Michelle's son, Cutter, called her. He said he felt like he knew it right then. Cutter told his mom he was sure the sketch showed somebody he knew, someone named Ryan Riggs.
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The Haunted House Confession
Deputies sped down a road five miles from Shantae's home to that abandoned farmhouse. Their body cameras were rolling as they met Charlie Radel and his girlfriend, Jackie Neal.
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The Haunted House Confession
Ryan Riggs was a local, a member of Shantae's church. Cutter knew Riggs from high school and would never forget him.
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The Haunted House Confession
Michelle called Scott Bird and gave him the name. You've got a picture. You've got a name. How do you put those together?
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The Haunted House Confession
What did you think when you saw that side by side? I started becoming a believer. Maybe it wasn't a waste of $3,600.
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The Haunted House Confession
Investigators still had a lot of work to do. The sketch alone wasn't enough for an arrest.
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The Haunted House Confession
They learned that the 21-year-old Riggs loved playing video games online and picked up work doing lawn care. When Shantae first went missing, he'd even been part of the search, riding with John on an ATV.
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The Haunted House Confession
When investigators looked in their own files, they learned more.
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The Haunted House Confession
Dumping trash is no big deal, but where he dumped it was. Just a half mile from where Shantae's body was found, along that same remote country road. So what does that tell you?
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The Haunted House Confession
What's more, in those dark days after Shantae's murder, Riggs was a constant presence. Here he is captured on the police surveillance video, attending Shantae's funeral, waiting at the entrance to the church, then watching from the doorway. Midway through the service, he gets a program and takes a seat. And then he leaves before it's over.
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The Haunted House Confession
He would come into your intimate space and offer comfort, give you hugs.
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The Haunted House Confession
The fact that he was there for some of the most painful moments, that had to feel like the ultimate insult.
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The Haunted House Confession
Investigators now had a new and urgent priority. Find Ryan Riggs.
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The Haunted House Confession
After police released the sketch to the public, Riggs had taken off.
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The Haunted House Confession
The investigation had been jump-started, and another dramatic development was just around the corner, not in the woods or the brush, but at the very church that Shantae loved. I want you guys to take me to that Wednesday night church service. Ryan Riggs was now the prime suspect in Shantae's murder. But almost a week after the DNA sketch was made public, he was nowhere to be found.
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The Haunted House Confession
Russell and Linda Lamond had no idea there was an all-out manhunt underway for the young man they knew from church.
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The Haunted House Confession
On November 15, 2017, 18 months after Shantae was murdered, the Lamonts headed to church for a regular Wednesday night service. I want you guys to take me to that Wednesday night church service.
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The Haunted House Confession
Brown County Sheriff's Office investigator Scott Bird responded to the scene. What was the condition she was in?
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The Haunted House Confession
There was Ryan, not hiding, not on the run, but there in plain sight at the church.
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The Haunted House Confession
And then Ryan Riggs, standing alone at the pulpit in front of the whole congregation, said it. He was a murderer.
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The Haunted House Confession
I want to ask you, Russell, all I had to do was mention that church service, and you were almost brought to tears.
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The Haunted House Confession
So it was very clear to you from the beginning, this is a murder investigation?
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The Haunted House Confession
This is a brutal, cold-blooded murderer, and he's being treated with kid gloves. He's allowed to come to this church where he's very familiar, confess in front of people who love him. Where's the SWAT team? Where are the dogs?
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The Haunted House Confession
That meant all hands on deck. Texas Ranger Jason Shea was called in to help.
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The Haunted House Confession
Before that unforgettable scene at the church, Riggs had been on the run for several days. But then he showed up at the church with his parents, told the pastor what he'd done, and asked if he could confess to the congregation. The pastor agreed. So after the confession, what happens?
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The Haunted House Confession
So they all ride to the sheriff's office together. He's not cuffed. He's not arrested. He's just in the car with his parents going to the sheriff's office.
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The Haunted House Confession
Investigator Byrd and Ranger Shea rushed to the sheriff's office.
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The Haunted House Confession
This is somebody that you've been pursuing for 18 months, day in and day out. Finally, you're face to face with this person. What was that moment like for you?
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The Haunted House Confession
This was the news Michelle had wanted so badly for so long, ever since that terrible Friday the 13th. Her daughter's killer was finally in custody. But she was confused by the way it happened. Ryan Riggs did not confess to authorities. He'd done it in front of the congregation at Shantae's church.
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The Haunted House Confession
I can tell just looking at you when you talk about it, it affects you. Yeah, sure.
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The Haunted House Confession
This was the place where she would go and find comfort day after day, where she would sing and sit in the pews. The place she loved. Yeah. How did it feel to know that he had chosen that place, that church, to confess to killing her?
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The Haunted House Confession
Michelle was angry that the pastor had arranged what Riggs himself described as a moment of salvation.
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The Haunted House Confession
When Riggs arrived at the sheriff's office after the service, he was finally face-to-face with Ranger Shay and Investigator Bird.
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The Haunted House Confession
Riggs said they drove around the neighborhood, Then he pulled over in a secluded spot.
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The Haunted House Confession
He told investigators that as they sat there in the truck listening to music, something inside of him changed.
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The Haunted House Confession
Riggs knew about the haunted house because he'd been there with friends when he was a teenager.
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The Haunted House Confession
It was an appalling story. But the way Riggs told it was cold, almost methodical.
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The Haunted House Confession
As you're sitting there listening to him, what are you thinking about this guy?
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The Haunted House Confession
But before D.A. Murray went to court to seek the death penalty, he talked to Shantae's family. He wanted them to know there is a long process before an execution can be carried out, likely spanning many years.
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The Haunted House Confession
So the state offered Riggs a deal, a life sentence without the possibility of parole.
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The Haunted House Confession
Riggs accepted the deal. He was sentenced in February 2019.
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The Haunted House Confession
And on the streets where she walked, in the church where she sang, Shantae's spirit is still very much alive. Her family visits her on holidays, decorating her grave and picturing her smiling as she sings in the angels' choir.
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The Haunted House Confession
Shantae's mother, Michelle, heard the sirens first. Then a friend who'd helped organize the searches came to find her in person.
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The Haunted House Confession
Why would anyone want to hurt Shantae? What was it about Shantae that just really drew people to her?
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The Haunted House Confession
Stephen McDaniel is Shantae's stepfather. He'd known her since she was six years old. What was Shantae like?
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The Haunted House Confession
Shantae was tiny, not even five feet, barely 90 pounds, but she had big opinions about what to wear, what to do, and how to pronounce her name.
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The Haunted House Confession
And her grandfather, Charlie, the one she lived with, was happy to give her whatever she wanted. He'd helped raise her from birth.
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The Haunted House Confession
Growing up, Shantae needed extra care. She developed more slowly than other kids. So her walking, her talking, all of that was delayed. Uh-huh.
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The Haunted House Confession
But she didn't do it alone. It seemed everyone in the neighborhood had a protective eye on her. From her family, her friends, and of course, her boyfriend, John.
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The Haunted House Confession
So did her friends at church. I understand that there were some times you would help her with the hymns that would be sung in church.
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The Haunted House Confession
Shantae's church had become the makeshift headquarters for her search. Now it was where authorities launched their investigation.
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The Haunted House Confession
Texas Ranger Jason Shea and a team of investigators canvassed Shantae's neighborhood, retracing her final steps. This really was the starting place for your investigation.
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The Haunted House Confession
A handful of neighbors had seen her at a local restaurant just a few hours before she disappeared. Then she went home, said goodbye to her boyfriend John before he left for work at 6 p.m. She set out for her walk right after, eventually meeting up with a friend. That friend, Caitlin McAbee, told investigators that she and Shantae walked together for a couple of hours.
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The Haunted House Confession
Her grandfather confirmed to police that call was at 8.48 p.m.
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The Haunted House Confession
Caitlin said after that, she and Shantae said goodbye. She was laughing and just took off running.
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The Haunted House Confession
Yeah, down the road. And then within minutes after, she and her friend split.
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The Haunted House Confession
And where she and her friend parted ways, how far was she from her home? Quarter mile. When you think about that small window, does it mean that the killer was maybe following her, waiting for her?
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The Haunted House Confession
What happened next was still a mystery, but a bizarre clue was about to spark a new and terrifying question.
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The Haunted House Confession
The old house was set back from the road, isolated and in a state of disrepair. Even for a native like investigator Scott Bird, a complete mystery.
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The Haunted House Confession
Investigators soon learned it was a party spot for kids. Teenagers had nicknamed it the haunted house. It's obvious that people haven't lived here for years.
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The Haunted House Confession
Investigators set up a grid search, combing every inch of the property for clues.
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The Haunted House Confession
They found Shantae's bracelets scattered across the grass. Here's another pink man right here, John.
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The Haunted House Confession
So what did that tell you? Bracelet here, bracelet there, both on the ground.
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The Haunted House Confession
Down this back country road is an isolated stretch of land, a place where hunters come looking for prey. Behind the fence, just through the overgrown grass, sits an abandoned farmhouse. The few people who know it's here call it the haunted house.
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The Haunted House Confession
Investigators concluded someone had dragged Shantae to the place where she was found.
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The Premonition
Coming up... Neighbor after neighbor told us we needed to hone in on the next door neighbors. What was going on next door? So you just straight up asked her, were you having an affair with John Yelnik?
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The Premonition
So you have one neighbor who hears what he believes to be a pig squealing in the early morning hours of the murder.
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The Premonition
Neighbor after neighbor told us we needed to hone in on the next-door neighbors. The next-door neighbors had the biggest connection to John Yelnik.
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The Premonition
A murder investigation in a rural community begins. The release of information often comes in drips. So it wasn't a big city murder. So it wasn't a big city press conference about what happened.
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The Premonition
He had a premonition. He believed someone was plotting his murder. I wonder what it must have been like when he saw the face of the person who was about to end his life.
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The Premonition
Drive down the street, you see statues of Jimmy Stewart. I mean, what's more American than that?
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The Premonition
To walk in a historic courtroom and see flat-screen televisions and every kind of electronic multimedia device possible, in this case, they put it to use.
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The Premonition
The jury went back to deliberations. Two more hours passed. In most of the murder trials that I have covered, I could have told you ahead of time what the verdict was going to be. I really wasn't sure what the verdict was going to be in this case.
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The Premonition
It was stunning to have a state trooper from their community convicted of murder. It really is going to be decades before this community will get over something like this.
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The Premonition
I still remember being taken back by what I saw. Not only were there people everywhere, there were police and firemen and ambulance. everywhere lining the street.
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The Premonition
The neighbors were terrified. Because no one in this community wants to think this was a random crime. Do we now lock our doors in Blairsville? Do we now get security systems in Blairsville? This is unheard of. Things like this don't happen here.
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Deadly Entanglement
We hear a noise, and the imagination runs wild. Of course, we usually just shrug it off, go back to sleep, and wake up the next morning perfectly fine. This is not that story. The woman in this story woke up alone to that very nightmare. It was around 3.30 a.m. Someone was in her house. They'll be there to help her. They'll be there to defend her. Someone who was there only to kill.
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Deadly Entanglement
Did it seem as though he was trying to almost downplay his affair with Paige by saying that Desiree was involved, Desiree knew about it, she was good with all of it?
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Deadly Entanglement
The detective asked Scott if he knew of anyone who had a problem with Desiree.
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Deadly Entanglement
Meanwhile, investigators had been gathering evidence. There was some DNA under Desiree's fingernails?
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Deadly Entanglement
There was also a shoe print on the carpet, a few feet from Desiree's body.
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Deadly Entanglement
They also collected security video from the area, looking for Scott's car. And they took his phone. Then they let him go.
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Deadly Entanglement
But by the time he walked out of the sheriff's office, detectives weren't the only ones wondering about Scott. After Iraq, he was a different Scott. Different. The students at Wapato Middle School were struggling. Desiree Sunford, the cool art teacher in room 147, was gone.
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Deadly Entanglement
How were they taking it? We had a couple kiddos get really angry. Really angry. Fellow teacher Michelle Howell was heartbroken too, but she put on a brave face.
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Deadly Entanglement
Still, she realized just how raw her emotions were when a student came up to her during lunch break.
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Deadly Entanglement
Who would want to kill Tiz? Nobody. People in Desiree's hometown of Moses Lake were both sad and stumped.
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Deadly Entanglement
At first, Kayla thought it could have been related to the burglary that happened a week earlier. Did you think a person came back?
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Deadly Entanglement
explanation when kayla checked in with desiree's mother connie she learned about scott's strange behavior at the crime scene she told me that scott called the police because he didn't want to go in and she was
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Deadly Entanglement
And Kayla wasn't surprised that Scott seemed unemotional at the crime scene. For the Scott that you know, that's not outside of his character. Correct.
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Deadly Entanglement
Desiree's brother, Casey, wondered if Scott knew more than he was letting on.
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Deadly Entanglement
Kim O'Dell had the same gut feeling. She had known Scott since middle school, and she saw how much his time in the Army had changed him. After Iraq, he was a different Scott.
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Deadly Entanglement
A diabolical plot, born of sex and obsession, where the killer was as unexpected as the victim.
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Deadly Entanglement
People in Desiree's life noticed Scott seemed more detached, less loving. And there was another reason their marriage may not have been rock solid. Had you heard that Desiree was stepping out on Scott? I didn't. Years earlier, Kim found out Desiree had cheated on Scott before they were married. Did she ever tell Scott about this? She did. Did they have to try and patch things up?
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Deadly Entanglement
Between Desiree's infidelity and the change she saw in Scott, Kim wondered if Scott had just snapped.
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Deadly Entanglement
Desiree's loved ones were grasping for answers, but what they didn't know was detectives thought they might already have one in Paige Blades, who was about to tell investigators her story.
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Deadly Entanglement
Detectives wasted no time in contacting the other woman in Scott's and maybe Desiree's life, Paige Blades. How quickly did you go see her?
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Deadly Entanglement
Paige said she didn't have money for gas, so detectives drove almost two hours to her house. She was 23, shared a young son with an ex-boyfriend, and she worked at a food processing plant in Moses Lake.
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Deadly Entanglement
Paige said she and Scott soon became more than friends. We became intimate probably later that first year.
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Deadly Entanglement
Just as Scott had told them, Paige said it was all good, that Desiree was perfectly comfortable with the arrangement. Until she wasn't. That was about seven months before her murder.
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Deadly Entanglement
So now you're getting a different picture, perhaps, of this relationship than the one that Scott was portraying. That Desiree wasn't completely on board with their dealings.
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Deadly Entanglement
Paige said her relationship with Desiree may have cooled... But the affair with Scott continued right up until the night of Desiree's murder.
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Deadly Entanglement
Yakima County, Washington, where a marriage of mountains and countryside creates a stunning backdrop. Picturesque? Certainly. But people here are no strangers to crime. Retired Yakima County Sheriff's Deputy Ed Levesque has patrolled nearly every square mile of this county and seen everything from petty theft to homicide.
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Deadly Entanglement
As she talked, detectives thought she sounded a little too practiced.
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Deadly Entanglement
Do you kind of put a bookmark next to her name thinking she's somebody we're going to have to dig further into?
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Deadly Entanglement
Later, when detectives spoke to those close to Desiree, Paige's and Scott's stories of a lovely, amicable three-way didn't seem plausible. Kim said she'd never heard of Paige. Desiree never mentioned her as a friend. Nope. When you first hear about her and kind of her connection in their world, what did you think?
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Deadly Entanglement
Never heard of her name before. She also didn't buy the idea of a three-way affair. Ugh.
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Deadly Entanglement
So the idea of her allowing another woman to even enter the relationship, that's not the Desiree you know. No, that's not the Desiree I know. But could Desiree have hidden such an affair? To detectives, anything seemed possible in a case that would be loaded with secrets. We had just found out about three weeks before the shooting that
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Deadly Entanglement
Two weeks after Desiree was killed, her family and friends gathered for a funeral as unique as the woman herself.
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Deadly Entanglement
When you think about that poem with Desiree, did you feel that she lived that dash to the fullest?
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Deadly Entanglement
Scott was there at the funeral, of course. But for Michelle, that memory is not a pleasant one.
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Deadly Entanglement
Detective Johnson was hearing similar stories that Scott just didn't seem like the grieving spouse.
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Deadly Entanglement
Now, devil's advocate, you never know how somebody's going to react in a traumatic situation. This is a military man. Perhaps he just was stoic by nature. This was perhaps his defense mechanism when hearing this hard news.
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Deadly Entanglement
So a late-night call to report a possible break-in wasn't rare. Like that call on April 7, 2013. Sheriff's Office.
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Deadly Entanglement
But their suspicions were based on more than his demeanor. About two months after the murder, investigators got what sounded like explosive news. You get a tip that Paige was pregnant with Scott's baby when the murder happened. What did you think when you heard that?
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Deadly Entanglement
But then, some questions were answered when the lab results came back. The DNA found under Desiree's fingernails was male DNA, but... Wasn't Scott's DNA.
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Deadly Entanglement
Results on the bloody shoe print also came in. No connection to Scott.
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Deadly Entanglement
And the evidence from his phone? When you were going through that cell phone data, did it tell you where Scott and Paige were at the time of the killing?
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Deadly Entanglement
They confirmed that Scott's phone wasn't at the scene of the crime. Neither was Paige's. And all those gas station security cameras they checked? There was no sign of Scott's car near his home at the time of the murder. It's like you've got a lot of shiny pennies, but they're not adding up to much at this point. Does your investigation start to go cold?
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Deadly Entanglement
But as the investigation of Scott seemed to cool, interest in Paige was about to get white hot with revelations of some hostile texts. There was one where Paige texted Desiree and said, I'm fairly convinced that in the event of your demise, I would be the chosen one. Oh my gosh. A wannabe boyfriend with a bizarre motive. He worships the girl they walk on. He's obsessed with me.
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Deadly Entanglement
and even an attempted sting. We talked about it if I came over next weekend. Just how did Paige fit into this twisted case? We would try to find out for ourselves. There are people who would look at this and say that you came into their marriage and basically just tore it apart.
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Deadly Entanglement
What had seemed to be mounting evidence against Scott Sunford was amounting to very little, and the investigation into Desiree's murder seemed like it had gone quiet. How hard was that time for you?
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Deadly Entanglement
31-year-old Scott Sunford was driving home to Yakima County when he saw a notification. An alarm had gone off at his house where his wife Desiree was home alone.
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Deadly Entanglement
Meanwhile, investigators were taking a harder look at Paige Blades, the third wheel in the Sunforts' marriage. Turns out, there was another man in Paige's orbit. She'd brought him up in her interview with the detectives.
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Deadly Entanglement
Detectives learned Paige's ex-boyfriend, Dylan, had actually been involved in a shooting death two years earlier. He told officers two men came to his home in Moses Lake and assaulted him, so he shot one of them in self-defense. It was ruled a justifiable homicide. You did bring Dylan in to talk to him, correct?
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Deadly Entanglement
At the time of Desiree's murder, he had two firearms registered in his name, but neither was the same caliber as the gun that killed Desiree. And his alibi checked out. What's more, when Paige gave birth toward the end of the year, Dylan asked for a paternity test. It showed the baby was his, not Scott's. So in the end, Paige's baby didn't matter to the case.
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Deadly Entanglement
But that didn't mean there weren't serious problems between Paige, Scott, and Desiree in the months before the murder. Investigators learned a whole lot about that when the digital evidence finally came back. There it was, a trove of eye-opening texts between Desiree and Paige that told a dramatically new story about the two women and Scott.
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Deadly Entanglement
The texts began more than a year before the murder and early on showed a close friendship between the two women. Desiree wrote, Page answered, They alluded to one night that wasn't strictly platonic. Desiree wrote, Paige responded, But there was no evidence that they were engaged in an ongoing affair.
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In fact, about three weeks later, the texts showed Desiree getting tired of Paige living in her home. She wanted more privacy with Scott. Desiree wrote, It's starting to wear out. So the idea of you here for a week and who knows what next scares me. Where the hell is our time? Paige responded, Typically, that means there's a problem in your marriage and you might want to decide what to do with it.
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Deputies were dispatched to the scene, but Scott got there first. He called 911 again.
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Desiree wrote, me not wanting a friend here all the time with my husband means there's marital issues? WTH. What does this tell you about Paige and Desiree and their relationship?
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The texts revealed something else. Not only was Desiree unhappy, she had no idea Scott and Paige were intimate. She texted Paige, I still have to say that you two doing anything sexual would bother me. Paige answered, he and I doing anything sexual is out of the question. In her messages, it doesn't seem that Desiree has any knowledge or thought that Paige and Scott are intimate at all.
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Deadly Entanglement
From the texts, it's clear Desiree was worried about her marriage, and Paige was making it worse. In some exchanges, she was downright brutal. There was one where Paige texted Desiree and said, I'm fairly convinced that in the event of your demise, I would be the chosen one. Oh my gosh. Desiree says, huh?
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And Paige goes on to say, if you ever die and he needs a wife, I'm half convinced that would be me. Even just watching you, I can see that still upsets you.
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After that, Desiree finally pushed back, telling Paige to stay away for good. Texting, I'm going to ask nicely for you to distance yourself from me, my home, and my family. Paige's response? Not a problem. I've been wanting to do away with you for quite a while now. And then, She hurled a couple of obscenities at Desiree. I would imagine this is an important detail in your investigation.
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Deadly Entanglement
As provocative as the texts were, they didn't reveal a murder plot. But another call to the tip line was about to change everything.
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A name and a wild story about a stranger with a strange obsession. Almost 14 months had passed since Desiree Sunford's murder. when out of nowhere, a woman called the Yakima Sheriff's tip line and left a message. What did the caller say?
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Ed Levesque and two other sheriff's deputies raced to get to Scott, but the house was way out of town.
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Who was Marty Grismer? To figure that out, job number one was to find the tipster.
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They traced the phone call, and when they got their answer, they couldn't believe it. Who was it?
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You've not spoken to her in months, but now suddenly she's saying she knows who the killer is. Where did that come from?
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Marty had recently gotten married. Still, Paige said he kept asking her for sex and would hit on her at work. She let him know that wasn't happening, ever. But he was a friend, a really good friend.
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He was like her fixer, she said, would do anything for her, something she suggested he took too far.
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And Paige claimed Marty recently told her he took care of those issues.
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The baby wasn't Scott's, of course. Paige insisted Marty didn't make this confession until more than a year after Desiree's murder. She said she was shocked when Marty told her, especially since her relationship with Scott had cooled. And Scott was with another woman. She said Marty offered to take care of that, too.
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Desiree and Paige and Scott all knew each other well. Yes. I was accepted as a part of their marriage. Paige called this tipping. She says, I know who the killer is.
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Deadly Entanglement
And that, she said, is when she decided to call the tip line. When you look at the motive for Marty, that he killed Desiree so that this woman that he was obsessed with could be happy with another man who wasn't him, have you ever heard a motive like that.
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Paige said Marty described Desiree's murder in detail. She said Marty had been to the house before and knew there was a key hidden near the front door. He got the key.
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He even gave the operator his wife's phone number to call. it went straight to voicemail. When Deputy Levesque and his partners finally arrived, they saw a man standing outside, pointing a gun and a spotlight at the house.
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And those details were gruesome. I don't remember how many bullets he said.
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I don't think he mentioned the brand. It all lined up with what detectives found at the crime scene. Paige said Marty told her he headed home and got rid of the evidence.
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What was her demeanor when she sat down and told you what Marty had said? Did she seem scared?
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Page Blades had just told Yakima detectives that Marty Grismer, her co-worker and sometimes fixer, had confessed to murdering Desiree Sunford. What did you think as you're listening to this?
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Ideally, they'd record that conversation. So they asked Paige to meet Marty again, this time wearing a wire. Today's date is August 8, 2014. Eight days later, she and Marty got together at a Starbucks near work.
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As undercover officers snapped photos of Paige and Marty leaving the coffee shop, Paige persisted.
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Marty had no criminal history. His DNA wasn't in the system. So they scoured every other part of his life and took a closer look at his family.
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This is Beth Maxwell. She met Marty on a dating site in May 2013, a month after Desiree's murder.
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And Marty quickly fit into Beth's life, becoming a father figure to her young son. He was amazing.
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It was a whirlwind romance. After just four months together, they got married. Why so quickly?
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So much so that Beth felt blindsided by Marty's choice of a best man, his best friend, Paige. I want to make sure I'm getting this straight. Marty's best man was Paige. A woman.
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The honeymoon phase was short. Beth noticed that Marty prioritized Paige above all else.
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That's a love language. Mm-hmm. You were married to a man who was seemingly completely devoted to another woman. You believed that Paige... had feelings for your husband. I think so.
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Beth was wondering just what she'd gotten herself into when there's a knock at the door.
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Just steps into the dark house, the deputies found Desiree on the floor in her underwear, a bandage on her leg.
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Nineteen months after Desiree's murder, police and sheriff's deputies were at Marty Grismer's door. What did you say to him to convince him to come with you?
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Whatever happened with Scott and Desiree and Paige, Marty said he was an impartial observer, and only that. And all through that first part of that interview, his guard is pretty much down.
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Detectives listened to Marty for about half an hour. And now, the softball portion of the interview was over.
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They told Marty they'd been doing some research about him, had gotten a call from his boss.
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Except he seemed to have forgotten how he got this particular gun barrel. The fact is, detectives knew all about the gun barrel. They'd gotten it from Marty's boss and had rushed it to the lab. And what do you know?
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Marty seemed to realize this interview was going in a very bad direction.
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And that was only going to get worse as detectives got to the point.
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And then he said he remembered something. He said Page did have his gun fitted with that barrel at the time of the murder.
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This was around February, although she had it for a while. Until May, he said, well after the murder. And then Marty turned the tables on Paige and said he had long suspected she had something to do with Desiree's murder.
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Deadly Entanglement
We also had a few questions for Paige. Did you and Scott conspire with Marty to have her killed? November 13th, 2014, 19 months after Desiree Sunford was found shot to death in her home, Marty Grismer was charged with her murder. Desiree's friend Kayla thought someone else should have been locked up along with him, Paige Blades.
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So it was that very moment, in the middle of the night, in the middle of nowhere, that a wild mystery began. Are there parts of this case that still kind of linger in your mind, that still kind of bother you?
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Even after Marty's arrest, Paige's role in the Sunford's marriage remained something of a mystery to Desiree's family and friends, and to investigators, too. You were still looking at her. You still didn't think her hands were completely clean here.
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Do you think that there are things that people get wrong about you?
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Paige Blades is 35 years old now, the mother of four kids. She works in customer relations. And she says she still has strong feelings for and about Desiree Sunford.
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It's been more than a decade since Paige's entanglement with Desiree, Scott, and Marty. Do you feel like you're a different person now?
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Paige says she's worked hard to battle addiction, money problems, and the ghosts of a turbulent, abusive childhood. She admits to a pattern of troubled relationships, like what she had with Scott and Desiree.
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They were partying, hanging out. Paige says when she finally met Desiree, they became fast friends. And in fact, it was Desiree's idea for her to stay with them.
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During that bed arrangement, Were you all sexually active? Yeah. Everybody with each other?
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In those text messages, Paige and Desiree carried on flirty exchanges. But in other messages, it seems Paige wasn't being honest about her relationship with Scott. At one point, Desiree texted you, I still have to say that you two doing anything sexual would bother me. And you responded, yeah, he and I doing anything sexual is out of the question. Was that true?
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Did you ever mislead Desiree into thinking that you and Scott weren't sexually active? Not as far as I know or remember. Paige says she does remember when Desiree's patience reached the breaking point. She writes this, I'm done with the drama and the BS. I'm going to ask nicely for you to distance yourself from me, my home, and my family. And you respond in part, not a problem.
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I've been wanting to do away with you for quite a while now. And then go on to call her some names that I can't repeat on TV. It sounds like you didn't take too kindly to her telling you to stay away.
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Paige moved out, but she kept seeing Scott. There are people who would look at this and say that you came into their marriage and basically just tore it apart.
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Did you want to be with him? Would you have wanted to be his wife, have a relationship with him solely?
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No. I want to get you to respond to one more text thread between you and Desiree. You write, I'm fairly convinced that in the event of your demise, I would be the chosen one. Desiree says, huh? And you say, if you ever die and he needs a wife, I'm half convinced that would be me. What was that about?
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Deadly Entanglement
At the time, Paige shared details of her life with another friend, Marty Grismer.
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Paige says she told Marty all about her rift with Desiree, that she was still seeing Scott, and pregnant with his child. Paige insists she never thought his moral support would turn to murder and was shocked when Marty confessed to killing Desiree. He went into excruciating detail of what he did to Desiree. This was somebody who was your friend. How hard was this for you to listen to?
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Deadly Entanglement
So some people would look at this and say, you had to have planted some sort of seed in his mind by talking about Scott, by talking about the fact that you believed you were pregnant with his baby. That would make him think, if I get rid of Desiree, I'm making Paige happy.
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There are many people who believe that you conspired with Marty, that you wanted Desiree out of the picture so that you could be with Scott, and that you essentially put Marty up to killing her. Never. No truth to that?
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Did you and Scott conspire with Marty to have her killed? No, absolutely not. Her friends would say, if you hadn't been in the picture, if it weren't for you, Desiree would have never gotten killed, that she would still be alive today. How do you respond to that?
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Maybe not, but her testimony would be key to the case against Marty. Prosecutors had to worry, whose case would she actually help? Theirs or the defense's?
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All through the night, detectives and forensic techs arrived at Desiree's son for its home, now a crime scene. Desiree's husband, Scott, remained outside the house, no longer holding his gun.
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Paige Blades may have turned Marty in, but no one close to Desiree saw that as a selfless act. Do you buy that trying to do the right thing?
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But there's no denying it was Paige's tip that got them to Marty. Still, it wasn't an easy case. There was no crime scene DNA matching Marty, no shoe of his that matched the bloody shoe print, and no video of him in that area at the time of the murder. Then, as Marty sat in jail awaiting trial, a call came in from the plant manager at Marty's job.
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The stolen laptop and iPad, taken from Desiree and Scott's house when it was burglarized five days before the murder. But that jewelry box was key. It connected Marty directly to the murder. Page had told investigators that Marty said he took it the night he killed Desiree. It was all found along with a big clue as to who left it there. A receipt with the name Marty Grismer. That's big.
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A month later, detectives got a call from Marty's cellmate at the jail. And he's had some interesting conversations with Marty.
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And he was also talking about Paige. The cellmate said Marty was furious with her.
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She had turned him in. Paige would be the star witness against him at his trial. So Marty suggested a way his cellmate could solve his problem. Kill Paige and a friend of hers.
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That's quite a swing, going from doing anything for Paige, obsessed with her, will kill for her, to, according to the cellmate, wanting to put out a hit to get rid of her.
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No hit ever happened, and the cellmate got cold feet and refused to testify, which didn't help prosecutors, who were already dealing with a difficult circumstantial case full of imperfect evidence and, maybe worse, two possible alternate suspects. You had wondered about Scott and Paige's involvement from the very beginning.
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Were you concerned that the defense might try and use that as an alternate theory?
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Meanwhile, local police broke the terrible news to Desiree's mother, who then called her son, Desiree's brother, Casey.
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In December of 2017, Marty Grismer was offered a deal. His first-degree murder charge would be reduced to second if he took what's called an Alford plea, admitting there's enough evidence to convict without actually admitting guilt. Desiree's brother felt there was no choice.
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Casey attended the sentencing hearing with his mother, Connie. She spoke to the court.
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In the end, Marty Grismer was sentenced to just 15 years in prison. He's scheduled to be released in 2029. Desiree's friends and family were angry. They didn't think Desiree got justice. Was that good enough?
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They also remain angry at Scott. While he was never charged in the case, they're certain his affair with Paige led to Desiree's murder.
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Scott moved away after Desiree died. He's now remarried. As for Paige, she was never charged either. But still, Desiree's loved ones cannot shake the idea that she was involved. There are many people who believe that you got away with murder, that you should be in prison too.
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Still, the people who loved Desiree say they try not to dwell on Scott or Paige. They want to focus on the good on Desiree.
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Desiree's mother, Connie, had to sell her daughter's beloved Chevelle to pay for her headstone. Hey, Des. It's been a while. Connie died before it was installed. She's buried next to her daughter. It's a beautiful headstone.
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It's all her, Desiree Sunford, the beloved Harley riding art teacher.
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It was impossible for Desiree's loved ones to believe she was gone. Kayla Lewis was one of her closest and oldest friends. What stood out about Desiree?
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And Desiree loved cars, classic cars. Her dad taught her how to restore anything from a truck to a convertible. And even after he died from cancer when she was 12, she kept working under the hood.
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Of course, at 16, she had another focus, boys. One in particular, Scott Sunford. Her friend Kim O'Dell says Desiree got a kick out of Scott's goofy side.
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Scott proposed in 2003. He was 22. She was 21. The wedding was just days before he deployed.
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While Scott was deployed, Desiree finished college and even earned a graduate degree. Eventually, she got her dream job as an art teacher at Wapato Middle School outside of Yakima. Michelle Howell and Desiree bonded as young teachers.
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You know, every school has a cool teacher where you just want to go and sit and eat your lunch or just go and sit and just talk. It sounds like Desiree. She was one of them. Was a cool teacher. Yep. She was definitely one of them. By 2012, Scott was back in Washington working at a National Guard training center. the couple adopted a dog and named her Ada.
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They scraped together enough money to buy a home way out in the country. She's married her high school sweetheart. They have a home together.
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Desiree and Scott seemed well on their way to building a happy grown-up life. But then on April 2nd, just five days before she was murdered, Desiree came home to find someone had broken into their house and stolen an iPad and a laptop. The burglary shook her up. Scott put up a plywood board over the broken back window. And to calm Desiree's fears, they installed an alarm system.
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Desiree owned firearms, too, and always kept a gun at her bedside. But neither the alarm nor her gun stopped her killer. And now the terrible news of Desiree's death was everywhere.
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Now, down at the sheriff's office, investigators were digging into the case.
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Scott explained he had been out of town the day before, at his aunt's funeral, when the weather got bad. He called Desiree.
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He checked his phone again. That's when he noticed the alarm had gone off hours earlier. He made that first call to 911.
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Investigators were curious about Scott's last-minute decision to stay overnight. They would become even more curious when he told them where he stayed.
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When Desiree Sunford was shot to death during an apparent break-in at her home, deputies at the scene noticed right away her husband Scott seemed strangely calm.
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And something about him didn't sit right with the detective either. He asked Scott why he stayed on with the 911 operator instead of rushing inside to see if his wife was okay.
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We've all had that fear, that middle of the night, home alone in a dark, empty house kind of fear.
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Yakima County Sheriff's Detective Dave Johnson, now retired, worked Desiree's case. And this is somebody who presumably could have handled the situation. He knows his way around a firearm. He's got a gun.
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The detective switched topics and asked Scott about spending the night away after his aunt's funeral.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
James Craig was arrested for the first-degree murder of his wife, Angela. Prosecutors say he poisoned her protein shakes with potassium cyanide and tetrahydrozoline, which is found in eye drops. Now, if this sounds familiar, it might be because we've talked about the case on the podcast here before last November, when Craig was set to go to trial.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Wow. So those are some pretty big accusations about testimony. That was really important for the defense. So what happens next year?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Next, let's go to Idaho. And there is some big news in the case of Brian Koberger, the man accused of fatally stabbing four University of Idaho students back in 2022. Rachel, what did we learn about this one?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So the defense here is possibly laying the groundwork for alternate suspects, right? Do we know where that blood was found?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So the defense was arguing the arrest warrant should be thrown out. But just this Wednesday, Judge Stephen Hippler issued his ruling on the defense's motions to suppress the DNA information, arrest warrants, and Koberger's cell phone data. So all of that will actually be allowed in the trial this summer. Exactly.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Finally, we're off to Western Maryland for an update in a case that we first told you about a couple of weeks ago. Investigators linked the murders of an elderly man in California, a husband and wife in Pennsylvania, and the fatal shooting of a Vermont border guard to a group of young people called the Zizians. What's the news there, Rachel?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Rachel, thanks so much for bringing us all of that. We are so glad to have you on today. Thank you, Blaine. For our final story this week, we are joined by a very special guest, the most special of guests. Keith Morrison is here to talk about his brand new original podcast, Murder in the Moonlight. Hi, Keith.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
That is, until his defense team withdrew at the last minute on the day that jury selection was set to begin. Our NBC affiliate KUSA 9 News in Denver reported on that development.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Well, I'm so glad to have you here. This story, this is a fascinating one. It starts in Murdoch, Nebraska. It's a small farming town. And you have this line in there in the first episode that I love where it says, heads turn when a stranger drives by. And it really feels like that kind of small town where everybody knows everybody, where that really is true. Yeah.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
No, but that's one heck of a tease. You know, a couple of things about this podcast stand out. We get to see two very different sides of an investigation. There's some really great detective work that happens. And then there's some not so great detective work that happens. And so investigators figure out pretty quickly that there were two people in the house that night. How did they even do that?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Interesting. Wow. How's that for highlighting some detective work? So the story starts in Murdoch, Nebraska, but it doesn't stay there. It ends up being a multi-state investigation involving several law enforcement agencies, right?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So we've got some sound from an upcoming episode. It features an unsuspecting woman in Buffalo, New York, who was running a jewelry manufacturing business. Police asked for her help in tracking down who might have bought the ring just in case it was one of the killers.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
At a hearing last week, we finally got to hear more about the murders that the prosecution says Craig had planned. Dateline producer Tim Eulinger was in the courtroom, and he joins us now to tell us what he learned and where the case could go next. Tim, thank you so much for being here with us.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Yeah, this was definitely a fascinating one, Keith. I can't wait to listen to the entire series. It's fantastic. And next week, episodes will be dropping on Monday and Wednesday. So Keith, we've got a lot of stuff to look forward to. Thank you so much for joining us.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. Andrea Canning will be right back here with you next week. If you wanna find out more about the cases featured on our podcast, check out our website at datelinetruecrimeweekly.com. And to get ad-free listening for all of our podcasts, subscribe to Dateline Premium. Coming up this Friday on Dateline, Andrea has an all-new two-hour episode.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Two schoolgirls murdered in the woods of Delphi, Indiana. For years, the case went unsolved. Police were at a standstill except for one clue, a grainy picture and a gravelly voice captured on one of the girls' cell phones.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
The voice of the killer.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Could these girls help solve their own mystery? Watch A Walk in the Woods, airing this Friday at 9, 8 central on NBC, or stream it starting Saturday on Peacock. Thanks so much for listening. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Frannie Kelly and Katie Ferguson. Our associate producers are Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey. Our senior producer is Liz Brown-Kurloff.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Production and fact-checking help by Sara Kadir. Veronica Mazeka is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original music by Jesse McGinty. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production. Paul Ryan is executive producer. And Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline. Okay. Anything else? All right. Thanks very much. Bye-bye.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
It's got tons of twists and turns. So just to start, can you quickly just remind us, remind our listeners of the original crime that James Craig was accused of, the murder of his wife, Angela?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Wow. Okay. So I guess that begs the question, did Craig have any explanation for why he had that potassium cyanide?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So what are investigators saying about a motive? What are they pointing to there?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Okay, so fast forward to last fall, and Craig is hit with the other charges, solicitation to commit murder and solicitation to commit perjury. What do we know about those accusations?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Those are some mighty explosive allegations. My goodness.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Tim, you were in court for this hearing. What did we learn about the prosecution's case?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly. I'm Blaine Alexander, in for Andrea Canning, who's off this week. It's February 20th, and here's what's on our docket. In Hawaii, a man accused of murdering his wife's acupuncturist ex-lover took the stand in his own defense.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
You're listening in to a story meeting at Dateline headquarters in 30 Rockefeller Center. It's raining, but it's actually pretty mild. Our editorial team is catching up on breaking crime news around the country.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
OK, Tim, so prosecutors are saying that these letters were part of Craig's plan to fabricate evidence. But I'm curious, through all of this, did James Craig have any sort of visible reaction as prosecutors were talking through all of this new evidence?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Craig is now on his third defense team. What did his lawyers have to say at the hearing?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
And what's notable, this is not the first time that Craig has been accused of interfering with his case from jail, right? Prosecutors say that he has allegedly asked other inmates to help him fabricate evidence twice before this incident.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So it seems, Tim, that we know a lot about the prosecution's case from evidence that they've talked about in documents or in hearings in court. What do we know about what James Craig's defense is going to look like?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Any idea of when we will actually see a trial in this?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
And we've got this week's roundup of top crime stories, including the arrest of the leader of a group called the Zizians, which prosecutors believe is connected to six violent deaths. Big rulings on defense motions in Idaho for Brian Koberger. And drama in the latest pretrial hearing in the Karen Reid case.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So we'll be watching very closely this summer. Tim, thank you so much for following all of this and joining us today.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Up next, a Hawaii man is standing trial for the second time on charges he murdered his wife's ex-lover. Last week, jurors got to hear from him for themselves. In Honolulu, it's the final days of Eric Thompson's murder trial. He's accused of killing John Tokuhara, the acupuncturist his wife had a brief affair with back in 2022.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
He and his lawyers were undecided until the last minute on Eric taking the stand in his own defense. But Thursday afternoon, he was sworn in. And he stayed on the stand for three days.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Dateline associate producer Kelly Moody was inside the courtroom, and she joins me now to tell us what Eric says happened between him and his wife, Joyce, and what he was doing that January evening when John Tokuhara died. Kelly, thanks so much for joining us today. Yeah, you bet. First, just kind of remind us what Eric Thompson is accused of.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
What is the defense saying in all of this?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Yeah. So far, it's been pretty similar to the first trial, right? Are the same witnesses being called here?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So one of the big pieces in all of this is that white bucket hat. What's happening with the new testing on that hat?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
On Thursday, Eric Thompson took the stand in his own defense.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Plus, Keith Morrison will be here to fill us in on his latest podcast series, Murder in the Moonlight.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
let her do her thing I probably didn't even pick out that suit myself I think I think Joyce took care of everything and of course the big elephant in the room is his wife's affair right has Eric testified about it and how has he reacted to that portion of this
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
somebody found a gold ring in a place where it didn't belong did it belong to the killer and then you go on a long and winding pathway to find the truth but before all that we're heading back to aurora colorado where a dentist awaiting trial on charges of allegedly murdering his wife was back in court last week facing new charges It all started back in 2023.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
But then, of course, he faced cross-examination by the prosecution. Were they able to land any blows, anything major there?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
What is left to go in this trial?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
This is truly a fascinating case. Kelly, thanks so much. Yeah, you're welcome. Coming up, it's Dateline Roundup, big rulings from the judge in Brian Koberger's case, drama at the courthouse before Karen Reid's second trial, and more about the arrest of the leader of a cult-like group called the Zizians, which police have connected to murders from Pennsylvania to California.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Plus, Keith Morrison will be here to talk about Murder in the Moonlight, his latest podcast series. Welcome back. Joining us for this week's Dateline Roundup is Dateline super producer Rachel White. Hi, Rachel. Hey, Blaine. How are you? I'm good. Glad to have you with us. So we've got a lot to talk about. First up, we are off to Dedham, Massachusetts for an update in the Karen Reid case.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
And you'll remember she's the woman accused of drunkenly backing her SUV into her police officer boyfriend, John O'Keefe, back in 2022 and leaving him to die in the snow.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Okay, so what's the news that we have in the run-up to this retrial?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So what information is the judge talking about here?