Blayne Alexander
Appearances
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Michelle, Shantae's mother, was really upset about that. She was certainly noting the compassion that wasn't shown to her daughter. But then also this was a place that was very special to Shantae, right? This was Shantae's safe space. And, you know, obviously, Ryan, his family had a relationship with the church and the pastor as well.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And I should mention our team reached out to the pastor a number of times and he never responded. And Ryan's parents declined interview. but she was just very upset by the fact that the place that was so important, Shantae could receive such a, such a confession.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Sure. And I, You know, and I asked that question. This is somebody that you've been looking for for 18 months, right? The crime is brutal. And as soon as you got word, why didn't why weren't the police immediately called? Why was that allowed to happen? That in the end, he was kind of able to do things on his own terms to a degree. Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Being able to go home, his parents taking him to church, going to the sheriff's office rather than, you know, law enforcement coming in, carting him away. And that's the end of it.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
The investigators are very clear about that, too. It was, yes, we have the sketch. Yes, we now have this name. But that would not be enough to take into court. That wouldn't be enough to convict someone, certainly. So it led them to Ryan. But it was the fact that Ryan knew the things that only the killer would know. Right.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Like, yes, obviously, the DNA match was what really, really tied it together.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Absolutely. There's so much to even undertake a story that's as long as the things that we do for Dateline. You have to gather so much information, right? Like by the time we finish these stories, you feel like you're an expert on these cases. And so there are all these different facts and different pieces of sound and information that you want to cram in.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Brandon, first I'll say, one, thank you so much for the kind welcome. I really appreciate it. And this just goes to prove that our Dateline viewers are basically detectives in and of themselves. I mean, that's a fantastic question. So we never actually got a great answer to that. John, the boyfriend, Shantae's boyfriend, said that he had mentioned Ryan's name, but it never really went anywhere.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
We don't know the degree to which investigators went down that road.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Catherine, thank you for your question. A great question. Yes, that's what investigators believe. And so what happened was the Parabon image was released. Soon after that, Ryan, who had been at his parents' house, disappeared. After several days or so on the run, he came back and went to the church.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Oh, that's the most fun part about this. Whether it's on social media or the new phone number we have, I love hearing people's voices and actually asking the question. So more of that, please.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And it shows how closely she's paying attention because, yes, you did mention that in his childhood, he had this chihuahua that he would try and drown. But, you know, that is, yes, an early indicator. It starts with animals and then escalates from there.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Well, not only the church, but that's something that investigator Scott Bird said to me multiple times. Had it not been for the fact that they were able to find her as quickly as they did, they would not have been able to track down the killer without that evidence. So, yes, he is not shy about the fact that he believes that this was absolutely divine intervention.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
But even in two hours, somehow you run out of time. So that's why I'm grateful for talking Dateline, because we can talk about all of these other things that never made it into the actual show.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
That's so kind. I don't take that lightly. I really appreciate hearing from Linda. Thank you for that comment.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
I just, I have so much love for Michelle. My heart really, really goes out to her and to Stephen, Shantae's stepfather, for both of them to sit down and talk with us and trust us to tell Shantae's story in the right way, in a respectful way, really meant a lot. So thank you, Michelle, for that.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
You know, I've got to say the, a few hours before this episode aired on Friday, I got a text from the very first Dateline interview I ever did. It was Jolene and she was a sister-in-law of Heidi Furcus. And that was my story that aired in 2023. And yes, it will always stay with me. And I think all of these families will because
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
You know, when you do a story, to your point about the depth that we go to kind of know and understand the story, the case, but also the person, that kind of a connection isn't one that goes away quickly.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Thank you so much, Josh. This was one that will stay with me and an honor to do this one. Thank you, my friend.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
You know, I'd done a ton of research for this story, read about it, all of that good stuff, read previous, you know, news clips and everything. I hadn't actually seen the house for myself. And so I didn't see it until I was riding with the investigator, Investigator Bird. We had GoPros in the car and he was kind of driving me down the dirt roads. And then we get there.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And immediately I said, oh, wow. You can immediately see why this place is called The Haunted House. I mean, it looks right out of central casting of what you would expect to see a haunted house look like. All broken down inside. It looks like a horror movie. It does. It does. It does. And then you kind of consider some of the other things. I mean, there is a fence around it, right?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
That, you know, kind of tells people to keep out. If you go inside there, the floorboards aren't there. You can't really walk through. There are animals inside and creatures. And then there's this storm cellar, which... I wanted to when we were putting this together, we wanted to make sure that everyone understands what a storm cellar is. Right. I grew up in Oklahoma.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Everybody has storm cellars for the most part. Lots of people have them. But this kind of underground place where you go for tornadoes and even tornadoes. And so that's where Shantae was ultimately found. And so the place itself almost becomes a character in the story just because of how how creepy it was, to be honest.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And just to break down that isolation a little bit more, Dallas probably is the nearest big city, Dallas-Fort Worth. That's a good two and a half hour, maybe three hour drive from Brownwood. But then the place where this happened, where Shantae lived, is actually slightly to the north of Brownwood.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And so you have this kind of small town anyway, but then an even smaller community that's kind of nestled around the lakes. When you talk about a small community, I mean that everyone truly knows everyone there.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And I'm glad. I'm glad to hear that because everybody that I spoke to really said that exact same thing. I mean, she was feisty. She had her opinion. She had her thoughts. Her routine with the walking was unlike anything anyone had ever seen. She'd wave at the car. She'd wave at the neighbors, right? People knew her.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And when she would go into church, everyone was just kind of taken by just how involved she was. I mean, really how, how moved she was by the music, how much she enjoyed being there. And that's something that, that drew a lot of people to her as well.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Yeah. And, you know, when I talked with both of the, you know, Ranger Shea and Investigator Scott Byrd and both of them were just you could tell they were personally impacted by this case that they I mean, they put a lot of just kind of their own emotion and obviously brainpower into this.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
But when they talked about John, I mean, they talked about the fact that, yes, he saw her not too long before she disappeared. There were the people who said, OK, maybe they argued and maybe he was possessive and deleting of the text messages. And then, you know, we talk about this. He slept outside in his car after he realized that. Chante wasn't inside.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And that was something that struck them as odd. So there were these kind of string of just odd things that made them certainly go further down that rabbit hole.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
I'm glad that he was able to kind of tell his story, right? To, to, to in his own words, because he makes the point that even though he was cleared from, you know, by investigators pretty early on, a lot of the people in the community were looking at him and saying, okay, clearly it's John, clearly it's the boyfriend. Like that's the only way to go. And so, you know,
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
To have that hanging over his head until there was ultimately an arrest, which came more than a year later, was also something that was difficult for him as well. So I'm glad that he was able to talk. I'm glad he agreed to speak with us. How did you... Was it hard to get him? You know, well, one, I want to say something about sitting down and talking to him. John was so...
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
It was so clear that he was just still so impacted by everything that happened to Shantae. He left Brownwood for a while. He moved away. He got work elsewhere. You know, he's still close with her family today, by the way. But he had to leave. He just kind of couldn't necessarily deal with this for a while and then came back to talk.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
I asked him how he felt after the interview and he said he felt relieved. And so I think that he was glad to be able to tell his story, glad to be able to talk about his love for Shantae because it was something that had come under question during this investigation. It was something that even when I talked to him, I could tell he was still upset by it and rightfully so. Right.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
But but I could tell that, you know, him just talking about and being able to express that love was was important to him.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
So here's what's funny. I don't... Speaking of picking up things from your grandparents, Walker, Texas Ranger was my grandpa's one of his favorite shows. You guys remember that? Love that. And so after I finished my long interview with Ranger Shay, I said, I have to say, I was very excited to interview you today because I love Walker, Texas Ranger. And he just fell out laughing.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And so but I asked him, I said, I need to know about this hat. And he says, yes, it's part of the uniform. But here's the thing. They have to be a light color because in the old Westerns, dark color represents the bad guy. And so, yeah, the bad guy. So you have to have your light colored hat. He told me about it, gave me the specific name of it and everything.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
It brings so much character, though, right?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And I think you're absolutely right. Yes, those was kind of a roadmap of their actual investigation. But what was so frustrating? And this is something that Investigator Bird kept coming back to when he talked to me. It was so frustrating because he had the killer's DNA right there in his hand. I mean, it's the best evidence you can use to identify someone, but I don't know who it is.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
So he said at one point they were so frustrated. They said, we're just going to set up at this kind of four-way stop sign and just ask everybody who passes for DNA.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
It paid off. It absolutely paid off. And talking with Investigator Byrd, there were several things that he believes really lined up. One of them is that with this, they choose an age of what they're going to make the sketch look like. And it was within a year of Ryan Riggs' actual age. And so had they chosen, I don't know, a 75-year-old man or something, it obviously wouldn't have looked like him.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Two, though, they talk about going through pictures, and this was one of the pictures on his Facebook page, believe it or not, that actually looked almost exactly like that.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Absolutely. I mean, I think probably one of the strongest examples of that is when they're talking with Ryan at the end, after he's done this confession in church, which was stunning in and of itself, the way that he is just so casually describing what he did to Shantae, not seeming to flinch, not seeming upset. That's something that you have to see, I think, to get the full effect of that.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Absolutely is. There is nobody I would rather do this Talking Dateline with than you, Josh. So thank you.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
They really did. I think also when you juxtapose, we talked about the haunted house being a character. The church in its own way was also a character, right? Because you have this house of evil, the haunted house. But then at the end, the confession happens in the house of worship, right? Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
I think that especially when you talk with the Lamans, I mean, they were scarred by what happened there in church, by what happened, what was supposed to be this kind of safe sanctuary of a space. And so some of that evil did infiltrate the church as well.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And I can tee it up real quick. I am very glad that we talked with the Lamans, Russell and Linda, and appreciative to them for speaking with us because this is something that clearly still upsets them today. You know, they're both people of very deep faith, very deep Christian faith. He was a leader in the church.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And so to kind of have this, we love, we forgive, but also we love Chante and you did a terrible thing to her. How do you kind of... marry those two thoughts. So anyway, they talk about it a little bit more in this piece, in this clip here. You've gone through a lot from mourning the death of someone who was like a family member to months of not knowing to now these conflicted emotions.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
As you sit here today, how has this whole experience changed you?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Linda, I'd ask you the same question. How has this whole experience changed you?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
I think that that section of interview could be very difficult for a lot of people to listen to, of course, not least of all Shantae's family. But this notion of when you kind of look at the context of how Ryan was... able to go in front of his church, confess, have people in some way show support, and then proceed on to the sheriff's office and confess there and face the consequences.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Well, no, watching you, I could tell just where your heart was in this story. And I think that you just did a really beautiful job with it.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Everyone says it and I completely believe it. So thank you for that. And thank you for, thank you for this. This episode was just, it was moving in so many ways, truly. Okay. And after the break, we will be back to answer viewer and listener questions from social media. We've got some social media questions. There were a lot of reactions to this. So I'll just read through a few.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Ronnie Brock says, how could the police wait five years to follow up on a man who tells them he was there? Police could have gone to his home and found the jacket and pants he was wearing that day. That's, I mean, it's something we talked about.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Okay. Jerry Lynn wrote on Facebook, how high off the ground was that bridge? 63 feet. 63 feet. Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
I am sure. Yeah. I have to say, I have, I actually have a fear of heights. It comes and goes, but it would definitely would have, I couldn't have done it. You wouldn't like it. No, you would not like this.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
We would have had to come up with a different way to shoot that if I could not have been up there. So my hat's off to you because that was amazing. Okay. Daniel Welcher on Facebook says, did Richard Allen have any criminal record before this? No. None.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And then we have an audio question from Gracie Donaldson Cipriano. Let's listen.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
I remember that line. And I thought the exact same thing. I mean, was it as high as it seemed?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Just bizarre. It's so strange too, because you're absolutely right. You want that resolution at the end, but no, it's in the truest sense, a senseless crime. Well, Andrea, we have talked a lot of Dateline today. Thank you so much. This was just a fascinating conversation as always. Thank you. And that's it for Talking Dateline this week.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can always reach us 24-7 on social media at DatelineNBC. And exciting news, you can now submit your questions over the phone. Just call 212-413-5252. And leave a message with your question about Dateline and our episodes for a chance to be featured on Talking Dateline.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And also remember to check out Keith's brand new podcast, Murder in the Moonlight. It's about a double murder in the Great Plains and an investigation that came down to one single shiny clue. And as of today, Dateline premium subscribers can binge the entire series, and episodes one through four are available for everyone else.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And of course, we'll see you this Friday on Dateline on NBC for my very first show as a full-time Dateline correspondent. Thanks so much for listening.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
There was a lot that was really memorable about this episode, but I have to say that almost as soon as you introduced Libby's grandparents, Mike and Becky, my heart just went out to them because I can't imagine just this feeling of like, hey, they were just having a sleepover at the house. Yeah. And then the next day they're gone.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Talk to me about what it was like just having that conversation with them.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
To recap, in 2017, two schoolgirls, Libby German and Abby Williams, were found murdered in the woods of Delphi, Indiana, near an abandoned railway bridge. For years, the case went unsolved and police were at a standstill except for one clue— A grainy picture and a gravelly voice captured on Libby's phone right before the murders.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Of course, of course. Oh gosh, that's just so, so heartbreaking. I'm curious, did you or did anybody from our Dateline team, did anyone speak to Abby's family?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
what they went through. Absolutely. Absolutely understandable. You know, let's talk about this investigation. I think, Andrea, for stories like this that so many of us follow kind of almost in real time, I'm almost even more fascinated to watch the Dateline episode because I think that I know a lot about a case and then the episode brings forth some more that I didn't know.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And the thing that I think all of us remember is that eerie recording from Libby's phone. They have this image now of the murderer, his voice, and really the girls helped bring down their own killer.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Hi, everyone. I'm Blayne Alexander, and today we are talking Dateline. I'm joined today by Andrea Canning to discuss her latest episode, A Walk Through the Woods. If you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed. So go there and listen to it or stream it on Peacock and then come back here.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
I'm curious, you know, one of the things that we heard was that recording and the words down the hill, right? And correct me if I'm wrong, but that was the only portion that was released. I didn't realize that they actually had, what, 43 seconds, you said, of audio?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Well, I have another question about that. I wonder, did the video lead investigators astray at all? I mean, it led to people kind of pointing fingers at friends, acquaintances online, just anyone that they could think about that even slightly resembled Bridge Guy.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
It would turn out to be a very big clue that helped solve the girls' murders. For this episode, Andrea is going to share a podcast-exclusive clip from her interview with the case's prosecutor, Nick McCleland. Then we'll answer viewer and listener questions from social media. All right, let's talk Dateline. Hey, Blaine. Hi, Andrea. How are you? I'm good. Thank you. This was a tough one for me.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
That is unbelievable. Before we go further into Richard Allen, something that was really interesting about this episode to me, there were obviously alternate suspects. Let's talk about Anthony Schatz or Kagan Klein. That was a journey. That was interesting.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Yes, absolutely. It was. First, I want to say I loved that we had these interviews that like Court TV reporter had done, like WTHR. Yeah. I mean, to have that interview with the guy whose real picture it was while he was working out on a workout machine.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Can I just say I appreciate the multitasking. Okay. He said, no excuses. We're getting it in today. I know.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
I just want to go on the record and say, next time we do a talking date line, perhaps we could do it from the Peloton.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
No excuses to not work out here. But that whole- whole episode with Anthony Schatz, Kagan Klein. I mean, that really was, yes, talk about a red herring. But I'm sure that when detectives kind of found those conversations with Libby, they were like, okay, this is it. Case closed. We got a guy.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And it just didn't happen. I would imagine this had a tremendous impact on this community.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And you know, everybody, that's the creepy thing. You feel like you know everybody. So now you're looking and it's like, okay, these people that I know is one of you guys, like, are we in the same restaurant with the person who did this?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
They would have just like... Yelled at you and probably kept going.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
OK, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, Andrea is going to share a podcast exclusive clip from her interview with the prosecutor in this case, Nick McCleland. Let's talk about the trial.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
I can only imagine. I want to dive into that because this was one of those stories that... You know, a lot of our Dateline cases for viewers and even for us, they're brand new, right? You haven't heard about them before we bring them the episodes. This was something that we all kind of watched play out from beginning to end, right? Like I remember having friends cover this. I remember watching it.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And before we can talk about the trial, of course, we have to talk about the pretrial hearing and kind of the judge ruling that the defense could not introduce this alternate theory that the murders were tied to Odinism. First, talk about what that was. And that was a tremendous blow to the defense.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Sure. So who knows? And so having that not be allowed in, I mean, that kind of upends their defense in a way, right? Like they have to go on trial in a very... In a different posture.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
That's really interesting. Something that stood out to me was, I believe it was his defense attorney who was basically saying, hey, when you talk about matching the physical description. He's wearing what? Jeans and a Carhartt jacket. Like everybody's wearing jeans and Carhartt jacket. Yeah, Carhartt hoodie.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And when the cell phone video was released, all of that, there's a lot to dive into. I want to start with just where this actually occurred, that bridge. It was already an eerie kind of setting for a crime like this, right? Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
So I wonder about those just kind of differences or the kind of the pushback of like, does he exactly match the description of this guy?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Yeah. Nick McCleland, the prosecutor, talking about what it was like waiting for the jury to come back with a verdict.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Do you find that there is still, even though he's been convicted, is there still some doubt about this in the town? Like, where do people land on where the verdict?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Before we wrap up this portion of our conversation, Andrea, I want to circle back to something that you said at the beginning of just how difficult this case was, the story was for you to cover personally. And I mean, I wanted to ask you about that. I know that you are a mom, you are a girl mom.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And you even mentioned that for a bit in the episode of just the similarity in ages with two of your girls. How did you kind of make your way through this story?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
You kind of anticipate the arguments they're going to have. And so it really is just an interesting way of going into a conversation and, you know, thinking about all the different angles they're going to throw at you.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Absolutely. There are a lot of just kind of like still, I guess, hanging chads in this story. Right. You know, the sentencing phase. I do want to ask you, though, about the deliberation. Five days.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Yeah. Yeah. And there's nothing to change that. Josh, we are going to talk about questions from social media. A lot of people had thoughts about this episode. So we've got that coming up.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Okay, we're back. And Josh, we have a couple of audio questions this week. First up, let's hear from Amy Brownstein Berry on Facebook. Here's what she had to say.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Interesting. Do people keep them? I mean, obviously they're in your shirt, but do you keep them just in your pockets? Are they usually found loose in your pocket somewhere?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
OK, this is a fun question. Jabour Estefan on Facebook asked, has anyone ever said to Josh, bro, the defense attorney called you, bro. Have you ever been called bro in an interview before? I noted that one, too.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Okay, we've got another audio question. This one is from Amanda Lechman DePaulis on Facebook. Let's take a listen.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Well, lots of audio questions. I love the audio questions, by the way. This is a lot of fun to hear, to hear actually from people's voices.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Here's something that was funny, Josh, that people notice. And I have to admit that I noticed this one too. Fans notice just how tall Sergeant Dittmer is. When you guys were kind of walking side by side, I think down the street, Sylvia NYC wrote on X, I don't think I've ever seen anyone tower over Josh Mankiewicz on Dateline. So what was what was the deal there? How tall was this gentleman?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Josh, this was a fascinating episode. And it's always good to talk Dateline with you, my friend. Thank you.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
That's it for Talking Dateline for this week. Remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can always reach us 24-7 on social media at DatelineNBC. And if you'd like to hear your voice on an upcoming episode of Talking Dateline, please send your questions as an audio file. We cannot wait to hear from you.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
And Keith's got a brand new podcast, Murder in the Moonlight. When a couple is found shot to death in their quiet farmhouse on America's Great Plains, The investigation includes four suspects, spans three states, and comes down to a single shiny clue, a gold ring found at the scene of the crime.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Follow Murder in the Moonlight now and get two new episodes a week starting February 17th completely free. Or subscribe to Dateline Premium to start listening now. Premium subscribers get early access and ad-free listening. And as always, we will see you on Fridays on Dateline on NBC. Thanks for listening.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Well, let's talk about San Francisco. I mean, this really kind of provoked a very strong response about the city. It's fair to say this kind of shook the area and people far beyond it as well.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
And, you know, you talked about, of course, in the story that like he still had his wallet, he still had his watch. So that was pretty quickly kind of disproven.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
One thing that really stood out to me in this story, Josh, there was so much video. I mean, obviously, we had, yes, a video of him stumbling after he was stabbed. But the video of his final moments before that, I mean, the, you know, accused killer allegedly demonstrating his crime, like, oh. All of these different things.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Now, just to recap, when tech executive Bob Lee was fatally stabbed in 2023 on the streets of San Francisco, concerns grew over violence in the city. Investigators discovered that the crime was actually far more personal, involving the suspected killer's sister, allegations of sexual abuse, and a rather convoluted theory of the potential motive.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
It's like exactly like you said, like you look at one of those pictures. It's like, do you see a woman with a shawl or do you see a dog with a smile? Right. Like, what are you seeing? Let's talk about Bob Lee. I love the way that you unfolded it. I mean, first, of course, you talk about who he was to his family. And then it's like, ah, yes, here's who he was, you know, in the bigger sense.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
For a lot of us, it's like, oh, my God, that's the guy who founded Cash App. That's immediately what a lot of people go to because it's somebody whose influence was certainly felt by by all of us in some way.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
I have to say I have a new favorite term from this episode. Code play hard. I mean, it was one of those things where I heard it. I was like, oh, that I have a surprisingly clear picture of exactly the type of lifestyle you're talking about right now when he said that. Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Well, for this talking dateline, we also have an extra clip about the star witness in the trial, Kazar Momini, and what it was like for Bob Lee's brother to watch her take the stand and defend the man accused of killing him. All right, Josh, let's talk Dateline. How are you doing? I am good, my friend. How are you doing? Good, good. Great to see you.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
I'm curious, as you were going through your interviews and talking about people who knew Bob and also who were in that culture, did you find that anybody was hesitant to kind of dive into that?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Hi, everyone. It's Blaine Alexander and we are talking Dateline. I'm joined today by Josh Mankiewicz to discuss his episode Under the Bay Bridge. Now, if you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed. So make sure to go there, listen to it or stream it on Peacock and then come right back here.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
You know, I think that, you know, we got a beautiful picture, though, of the duality of Bob's life, right? Because we heard from Crystal Lee, like you said, and then we heard from their two kids, right? How he was just this truly loving dad, like some real concrete examples of how he taught them things, doting on his kids.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Yeah. You know, you get a real sense of loss, I think, from the kids. They added a lot. When we get back, Bob Lee's brother thought Nima Momeni's testimony was outrageous. But what did he make of the accused killer's sister on the stand? We've got an extra clip from Josh's interview with Oliver Lee coming up. I want to talk about Kazar Momeni.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
I think it's very fair to say that Kazar Momeni was one of those unforgettable characters. She was so interesting. She became a key part, but it was very clear that she wanted nothing to do with this trial.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
So my first question, actually, this one came to me as I was watching. A lot of time in the Dateline world, our stories don't necessarily make national news before we air them on Dateline, right? Right. Our audience is hearing about them for the very first time when we bring them the story. This was clearly the opposite. This is a story that I remember when it first happened.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
I mean, you illustrate it right there, like Nima's defense attorney, who, by the way, is being paid for by Kazar, right? Says, don't believe a word she has to say. Don't don't believe anything.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
While we're on the subject of Kazar, a lot of people had thoughts about her, clearly, including Bob Lee's family. So we have an extra clip of Bob Lee's brother, Oliver Lee, talking about his impressions of Kazar Momini.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
I remember watching it. We covered it so heavily on NBC. How does that change your process, either the storytelling process or even just kind of how does that impact when you're trying to get people to do interviews with you?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
You know, when you look at kind of the Momini family as a unit, and I'm so glad that we heard from the mother in all of this too, what Krista said at the end just kind of angry at the family in its entirety. I will never forgive this family for what they did to Bob.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
I thought that that was really interesting, but I also, it made me, it made me wonder, was there ever any talk of anyone else being, you know, facing charges and all this as an accomplice or anything?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
I want to ask you about the defense attorney, because one, I love the back and forth between the two of you guys. Obviously, you held your own. It was it was interesting. As soon as you introduced him and said he came from Miami to help with this case, I said, aha, Miami like that. You know, just kind of he seems like an attorney who came from Miami.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
But it was, you know, for our listeners who watched the episode and who are listening to us right now, one, it was a masterclass in how to do those types of interviews, right? Because I think for people who kind of see the end product of Dateline, when we're prepping for these, there's a lot of, you know, the story in and out. So you anticipate what your interviewee is going to say.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigators found a rusty lawnmower blade near her body. It was covered in blood.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
There were deep cuts on Shantae's scalp and face, bruises on both sides of her neck, her arms and legs, and something odd on her chest.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
An autopsy revealed Shantae had died from blunt force trauma consistent with that bloody lawnmower blade. She had also been sexually assaulted.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Crime scene techs collected evidence at the scene and sent it out for DNA testing, hoping it would lead them to Shantae's killer.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Alicia Bird is Investigator Bird's wife. She is also the county's assistant DA.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
When she saw a photo of that mark on Shantae's chest and considered that the murder happened on Friday the 13th, a theory started to take shape.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Maybe that could explain the why, if only they could figure out the who. Right away, Investigator Bird knew who he wanted to look at first.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Charlie Radel and Jackie Neal, the searchers who found Shantae.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
So you're thinking, we found who did this, and they gave themselves away.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Time to head to the sheriff's office for questioning. What might a polygraph reveal?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
The search for Shantae had ended, but the hunt for her killer was just getting underway. To start, investigators wanted to take a hard look at Charlie Radel and his girlfriend Jackie, the searchers who found Shantay.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
It seemed so unlikely that they just got lucky. The house is so remote, it's almost impossible to find, even with GPS. It's on a dirt road off of another dirt road.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
But one night, the horror became real. This was the scene of a crime so evil it haunted an entire community and made neighbor doubt neighbor. Everybody was a suspect.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Charlie and Jackie were both in their 40s, and they both knew Shantae from her daily walks in the neighborhood. She lived about a mile away from them.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
investigators took note of Charlie's emotion at the scene and invited him to the sheriff's office to see how he would answer questions there. Charlie told the investigator he'd just seen Shantae out walking not long before she disappeared.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Charlie said that as soon as they heard a search was being organized, he and Jackie jumped in the truck and hit the country roads.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Then, he said, they came upon that dirt road, the one leading to the haunted house.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
After looking around the dilapidated house, he said he decided to check the storm cellar. That's where he found Shantae's body.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
They also interviewed Jackie. The investigator asked her where Charlie was on Friday the 13th, the night Shantae disappeared.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
The search for justice would lead to a different house, a house of worship. Had evil made its way there too? For the congregation of North Lake Community Church, this simple building was a refuge, a place to sing and worship in peace, a haven for people like Shantae Blankenship.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Charlie also agreed to a polygraph. How hard did law enforcement press Charlie?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
While investigators searched for Shantae's killer, her family was facing the difficult task of planning her funeral. mourners gathered for the service at her beloved church.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Did you feel the love that this community had for your daughter? I did. I did. Did you ever consider the possibility that her killer might be right there in the room, in the church with you? I didn't. She didn't, but investigators did. They rigged up surveillance cameras inside the church. You thought that it was important to see who was coming, who was going.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
They also set up cameras at the cemetery by Shantae's grave.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
But after scrubbing through hours of video, investigators didn't find anything suspicious. Still, they were convinced Shantae's killer had to be close by, almost certainly someone she knew.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
So they would have to look at everyone in Shantae's circle, starting with the man closest to her.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
In the days after Shantae's body was found, her family and friends tried to come to terms with her savage murder. I know that you'd said at some point, even after she was found, There were days when you almost still expected to see her on those walks.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Was it hard for you to grasp that reality when you traveled down that road? Yes, because—
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
And as investigators looked for Shantae's killer, those closest to her were under scrutiny.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
John Adams, Shantae's live-in boyfriend. At 26, he was a year older than Shantae. They'd known each other since middle school, had been a couple for more than three years. They were even starting to talk about marriage. John meant a lot to her. She meant a lot to him. That's what mattered to Shantae's family. They made it clear to John that Shantae was special and needed to be protected.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Two days after Shantae's body was found, investigators paid John a visit. Hello. Hello. John recognized the deputy from a traffic stop.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Can we have this brush? Took pictures and examined Shantae's belongings. Just gonna dump this out.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Then they went back outside. That's when they let John know they weren't just looking for clues. They were looking at him.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
What is that on that hammer? Is that from pulling out nails or something? They took pictures of John's pickup truck and were interested to see a lot of lawnmowers in the shed. Man, do you guys have a lawn care service? Remember, it was a lawnmower blade that killed Shantae. They also wanted to know about John's relationship with Shantae.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigators had heard it was loving, but could be tense at times. It was strained.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Shantae was 25 and lived with her grandfather and boyfriend in a community on Lake Brownwood in Central Texas. Linda and Russell Lamond met Shantae at church. Russell was the assistant pastor. He and his wife took Shantae under their wing when she started showing up with a notebook and her own Bible.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Did you ever learn that Shantae had complained to neighbors about John sometimes wanting to control her?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
But Bitsy Hobbs, one of Shantae's friends, told investigators she heard the couple fighting. Shantae sounded angry.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
But they were about to find out. They had a stack of questions for John Adams. For starters, what did he do with his phone?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
John Adams seemed like a friendly guy when he met investigators. Who lives here?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
John said that around 5 p.m., he picked Shantae up at the restaurant where neighbors had seen her that afternoon. So he picked her up and took her to where?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
John said he then went to work at his restaurant job around 6 p.m.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
He said he worked an overnight shift and got home around 5 the next morning. Shantae wasn't there. He thought maybe she was at a friend's place.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
But investigators found something while searching his cell phone data.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
This time, the conversation was less friendly on both sides.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
John admitted he was trying to hide something, but not about Shantae.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
We interviewed him, too, and asked him what it was like to be grilled like that. You could tell that when they were talking to you, they weren't just trying to get information. They were thinking that you had something to do with it.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
He told us the same thing he told investigators. His relationship with Shantae was not perfect, but it was solid. Were there ever any rocky moments?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
It wasn't just investigators. John knew neighbors were quick to assume the boyfriend was to blame. But he told us what some saw as controlling behavior was his way of protecting Shantae. Already people were starting to point their fingers at you.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigators needed to check out everything John told them, including what he said about other men in town, like a guy named Bobby Sosa, who John said liked to throw parties.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Shantae's friend told investigators she'd seen a red and white Bronco in the neighborhood the night Shantae disappeared, that the driver waved at them and seemed creepy. They tracked down Sosa and confirmed he drove a red and white Bronco and brought him in for questioning at the sheriff's office. Sosa said he did drive by Shantae on her walk that night, but that was it.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Neighbors could count on seeing Shantae every day as she strolled her neighborhood by the lake. Friday, May 13, 2016, was no different, except that evening, Shantae went out for a walk and didn't come home. Her grandfather called Shantae's mom, Michelle McDaniel.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
The pressure to find Shantae's killer was mounting. We just know that they're out there. It's scary. You were preparing for a manhunt.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
It would all come to a head in a place they least expected.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
That place that Shantae loved most of all. We want to hate you, but we can't. John Adams, Shantae's serious boyfriend, was an obvious person to look at, even more so after investigators found out he'd been deleting text messages from his phone. Investigators checked out his story and confirmed those deleted text messages were just about marijuana.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
They were also able to get security video from the restaurant where John worked, along with the timesheets.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
I want to ask you, John, what do you miss the most about Shantae?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
John, as a suspect, was a dead end. But that didn't mean talking to him was a waste of time. Not at all.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
John gave them another name, a name they heard from other neighbors, Colin Smith.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Colin was in his 20s, did some lawn mowing and odd jobs around town, and he lived just around the corner from Shantae.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
And Shantae's stepdad, Stephen, recalls that months before the murder, Colin took Shantae out for a late-night joyride. Stephen was furious. What did you say?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Shantae also told her friend Colin wanted to meet up the night she disappeared.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Shantae's mother wasn't too worried at first, but as the hours ticked by, that changed. He told me she still wasn't home. The next day, her mom went to the house, took a look around, and saw that her purse was still there.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
That very well meant that Colin could have been the last person to see her alive.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Shea went to see him in person. How you doing, sir? I'm Jason Shea. I'm with the Texas Rangers. What's your name? Colin. How did you find him? Did he seem shifty to you?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Like other neighbors investigators spoke to, Colin said he did see Shantae the night she disappeared, but only from a distance. He'd seen her pass by his house on her last walk.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Shantae was just a friend, Collins said. But he told investigators that she was interested in more than friendship.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
investigators wanted to ask him more questions, this time hooked up to a lie detector. Why are we here today, Colin?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
But right before they got started, a key part of his story changed. He admitted he did have a physical relationship with Shantae.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Colin told police he didn't know Shantae and John were serious.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Was that the only thing he'd been hiding? Wired up to the machine, the questions got very specific. Did you physically cause the death of Shantae?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
The investigator told Colin the results of the tests were not good.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Colin, who'd been cooperative up to this point, seemed eager to leave.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Colin stayed long enough to give them his alibi. He'd been at his brother's house, he said, about 10 miles away.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Would Colin's alibi check out? Or would police be forced to consider a whole new theory?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigators thought they might finally be getting somewhere. In a room with a young man they found highly suspicious. Colin Smith was my main focus. Colin had initially lied to detectives about his relationship with Shantae. And when they hooked him up to that polygraph, it seemed he still wasn't telling the whole story.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigators raced to talk to Collins' brother before he could, and the brother confirmed his alibi.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
They also talked to his niece and nephew, who said they saw Colin, too.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigators also took Colin's DNA and sent it to the crime lab. How does that come back?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Another dead end. By now, DNA results were coming in from the other men they'd talked to. Shantae's boyfriend, John, was not a match. Neither was neighbor Bobby Sosa.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
And the DNA also proved those searchers who found Shantae were exactly what they appeared to be, good Samaritans. Far from suspects, they had been a blessing to the investigation.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
The timely discovery of Shantae's body was a stroke of luck that, to investigator Bird, felt like divine intervention. But that luck seemed to be running out as they tore through lead after lead. How many calls were coming in that you guys had to chase down?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigators collected samples from at least two dozen men, including Shantae's grandfather, Charlie. It seemed unthinkable the doting Charlie could be the killer, but Shantae's mom was in favor of testing him. You thought he could have possibly been involved?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
It wasn't the grandfather. And it also wasn't anyone in CODIS, the National Law Enforcement DNA Database. Back to square one.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Heart-wrenching for everyone in Shantae's quiet lakeside neighborhood. As weeks went by, and then months.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
The family reported her missing to the sheriff. And in a community this close, word spread quickly. A search was organized after church on Sunday. Were you surprised by how many people turned out to search?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
At Shantae's church, parishioners were desperate for answers.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
And because no one was above suspicion, investigators even wondered about the pastor himself.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
That went nowhere. And while authorities suspected the killer was someone Shantay knew, they couldn't rule out other theories. Did you ever consider the possibility that you were dealing with a serial killer?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Alicia Bird was still thinking about that strange symbol on Shantae's chest. What could it mean?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigator Bird's wife could see the case was weighing heavily on her husband.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Desperate for answers, Chante's stepfather admits he badgered his neighbors.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
What she didn't know was that Investigator Bird was about to take a leap of faith with a cutting-edge technology. Maybe this would reveal the face of the killer.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
One year after Shantae was murdered, her mom organized a memorial. Friends and family came together and walked Shantae's route. Everybody was out of breath. We didn't know how she did it. But that was her thing.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Those were difficult days for everyone. Those who loved her spent hours by her grave, the stone inscribed, singing in the angels' choir. Her stepfather, Stephen, was grieving and feeling guilty. Before she went missing, he told Shantae he might take her fishing on that Friday. Instead, he picked up an extra shift at work.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Despite all the leads the investigators had run down, Shantae's killer was still out there. Now, like a losing football team, they were ready for a Hail Mary.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Bird felt incredibly frustrated. He couldn't crack the case, even though he had the killer's DNA.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
So what you have in your hand is quite possibly the best piece of evidence in terms of identifying someone, but no name.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Then Bird heard about a new DNA technique his department had never used. The process is called phenotyping. It uses DNA to predict the way a person looks, eye, hair, and skin color, among other things. Back in 2017, it was a shiny new tool for law enforcement.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Bird Googled it and called around. So you're hearing success stories. Correct. And thinking, this could work for us too.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
But when the investigator ran it by others, he hit a wall of skepticism, including his wife Alicia in the district attorney's office.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
More money for an investigation that was already one of the most expensive this sheriff's office had ever done. Michael Murray is the Brown County District Attorney. Did you have concerns about whether or not this would even be admissible in court? Right.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Finally, they all agreed. It was time for that Hail Mary. They got the money, and the DNA was submitted to a lab owned by a Virginia tech company called Parabon. You thought, there goes $3,600 down the drain?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Five months later, Investigator Bird got an email. It was late afternoon.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Did you think that it looked like a person? I mean, did it seem like, hey, this could lead us somewhere?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Not exactly the miracle they were hoping for. Still, they posted it on social media and pinned their hopes on the public. The chance that somebody out there just might recognize this face.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
It was Sunday afternoon. Shantae had been missing almost 48 hours.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
But it didn't ring a bell for Destiny either. To me, looks like any dude... picture you know everyone felt defeated then michelle got a call from another member of the family shantay's half brother he saw something others didn't and gave his mother a name to look up my heart hit the floor and i remember crying and i turned and i said this is him At first, the Parabon sketch felt like a big dud.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Police posted it on social media and showed it to the family, but nothing. Then Michelle's son, Cutter, called her. He said he felt like he knew it right then. Cutter told his mom he was sure the sketch showed somebody he knew, someone named Ryan Riggs.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Deputies sped down a road five miles from Shantae's home to that abandoned farmhouse. Their body cameras were rolling as they met Charlie Radel and his girlfriend, Jackie Neal.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Ryan Riggs was a local, a member of Shantae's church. Cutter knew Riggs from high school and would never forget him.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Michelle called Scott Bird and gave him the name. You've got a picture. You've got a name. How do you put those together?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
What did you think when you saw that side by side? I started becoming a believer. Maybe it wasn't a waste of $3,600.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigators still had a lot of work to do. The sketch alone wasn't enough for an arrest.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
They learned that the 21-year-old Riggs loved playing video games online and picked up work doing lawn care. When Shantae first went missing, he'd even been part of the search, riding with John on an ATV.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
When investigators looked in their own files, they learned more.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Dumping trash is no big deal, but where he dumped it was. Just a half mile from where Shantae's body was found, along that same remote country road. So what does that tell you?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
What's more, in those dark days after Shantae's murder, Riggs was a constant presence. Here he is captured on the police surveillance video, attending Shantae's funeral, waiting at the entrance to the church, then watching from the doorway. Midway through the service, he gets a program and takes a seat. And then he leaves before it's over.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
He would come into your intimate space and offer comfort, give you hugs.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
The fact that he was there for some of the most painful moments, that had to feel like the ultimate insult.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigators now had a new and urgent priority. Find Ryan Riggs.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
After police released the sketch to the public, Riggs had taken off.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
The investigation had been jump-started, and another dramatic development was just around the corner, not in the woods or the brush, but at the very church that Shantae loved. I want you guys to take me to that Wednesday night church service. Ryan Riggs was now the prime suspect in Shantae's murder. But almost a week after the DNA sketch was made public, he was nowhere to be found.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Russell and Linda Lamond had no idea there was an all-out manhunt underway for the young man they knew from church.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
On November 15, 2017, 18 months after Shantae was murdered, the Lamonts headed to church for a regular Wednesday night service. I want you guys to take me to that Wednesday night church service.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Brown County Sheriff's Office investigator Scott Bird responded to the scene. What was the condition she was in?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
There was Ryan, not hiding, not on the run, but there in plain sight at the church.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
And then Ryan Riggs, standing alone at the pulpit in front of the whole congregation, said it. He was a murderer.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
I want to ask you, Russell, all I had to do was mention that church service, and you were almost brought to tears.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
So it was very clear to you from the beginning, this is a murder investigation?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
This is a brutal, cold-blooded murderer, and he's being treated with kid gloves. He's allowed to come to this church where he's very familiar, confess in front of people who love him. Where's the SWAT team? Where are the dogs?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
That meant all hands on deck. Texas Ranger Jason Shea was called in to help.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Before that unforgettable scene at the church, Riggs had been on the run for several days. But then he showed up at the church with his parents, told the pastor what he'd done, and asked if he could confess to the congregation. The pastor agreed. So after the confession, what happens?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
So they all ride to the sheriff's office together. He's not cuffed. He's not arrested. He's just in the car with his parents going to the sheriff's office.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigator Byrd and Ranger Shea rushed to the sheriff's office.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
This is somebody that you've been pursuing for 18 months, day in and day out. Finally, you're face to face with this person. What was that moment like for you?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
This was the news Michelle had wanted so badly for so long, ever since that terrible Friday the 13th. Her daughter's killer was finally in custody. But she was confused by the way it happened. Ryan Riggs did not confess to authorities. He'd done it in front of the congregation at Shantae's church.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
I can tell just looking at you when you talk about it, it affects you. Yeah, sure.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
This was the place where she would go and find comfort day after day, where she would sing and sit in the pews. The place she loved. Yeah. How did it feel to know that he had chosen that place, that church, to confess to killing her?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Michelle was angry that the pastor had arranged what Riggs himself described as a moment of salvation.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
When Riggs arrived at the sheriff's office after the service, he was finally face-to-face with Ranger Shay and Investigator Bird.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Riggs said they drove around the neighborhood, Then he pulled over in a secluded spot.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
He told investigators that as they sat there in the truck listening to music, something inside of him changed.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Riggs knew about the haunted house because he'd been there with friends when he was a teenager.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
It was an appalling story. But the way Riggs told it was cold, almost methodical.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
As you're sitting there listening to him, what are you thinking about this guy?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
But before D.A. Murray went to court to seek the death penalty, he talked to Shantae's family. He wanted them to know there is a long process before an execution can be carried out, likely spanning many years.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
So the state offered Riggs a deal, a life sentence without the possibility of parole.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Riggs accepted the deal. He was sentenced in February 2019.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
And on the streets where she walked, in the church where she sang, Shantae's spirit is still very much alive. Her family visits her on holidays, decorating her grave and picturing her smiling as she sings in the angels' choir.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Shantae's mother, Michelle, heard the sirens first. Then a friend who'd helped organize the searches came to find her in person.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Why would anyone want to hurt Shantae? What was it about Shantae that just really drew people to her?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Stephen McDaniel is Shantae's stepfather. He'd known her since she was six years old. What was Shantae like?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Shantae was tiny, not even five feet, barely 90 pounds, but she had big opinions about what to wear, what to do, and how to pronounce her name.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
And her grandfather, Charlie, the one she lived with, was happy to give her whatever she wanted. He'd helped raise her from birth.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Growing up, Shantae needed extra care. She developed more slowly than other kids. So her walking, her talking, all of that was delayed. Uh-huh.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
But she didn't do it alone. It seemed everyone in the neighborhood had a protective eye on her. From her family, her friends, and of course, her boyfriend, John.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
So did her friends at church. I understand that there were some times you would help her with the hymns that would be sung in church.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Shantae's church had become the makeshift headquarters for her search. Now it was where authorities launched their investigation.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Texas Ranger Jason Shea and a team of investigators canvassed Shantae's neighborhood, retracing her final steps. This really was the starting place for your investigation.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
A handful of neighbors had seen her at a local restaurant just a few hours before she disappeared. Then she went home, said goodbye to her boyfriend John before he left for work at 6 p.m. She set out for her walk right after, eventually meeting up with a friend. That friend, Caitlin McAbee, told investigators that she and Shantae walked together for a couple of hours.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Her grandfather confirmed to police that call was at 8.48 p.m.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Caitlin said after that, she and Shantae said goodbye. She was laughing and just took off running.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Yeah, down the road. And then within minutes after, she and her friend split.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
And where she and her friend parted ways, how far was she from her home? Quarter mile. When you think about that small window, does it mean that the killer was maybe following her, waiting for her?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
What happened next was still a mystery, but a bizarre clue was about to spark a new and terrifying question.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
The old house was set back from the road, isolated and in a state of disrepair. Even for a native like investigator Scott Bird, a complete mystery.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigators soon learned it was a party spot for kids. Teenagers had nicknamed it the haunted house. It's obvious that people haven't lived here for years.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigators set up a grid search, combing every inch of the property for clues.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
They found Shantae's bracelets scattered across the grass. Here's another pink man right here, John.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
So what did that tell you? Bracelet here, bracelet there, both on the ground.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Down this back country road is an isolated stretch of land, a place where hunters come looking for prey. Behind the fence, just through the overgrown grass, sits an abandoned farmhouse. The few people who know it's here call it the haunted house.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigators concluded someone had dragged Shantae to the place where she was found.
Dateline NBC
The Premonition
Coming up... Neighbor after neighbor told us we needed to hone in on the next door neighbors. What was going on next door? So you just straight up asked her, were you having an affair with John Yelnik?
Dateline NBC
The Premonition
So you have one neighbor who hears what he believes to be a pig squealing in the early morning hours of the murder.
Dateline NBC
The Premonition
Neighbor after neighbor told us we needed to hone in on the next-door neighbors. The next-door neighbors had the biggest connection to John Yelnik.
Dateline NBC
The Premonition
A murder investigation in a rural community begins. The release of information often comes in drips. So it wasn't a big city murder. So it wasn't a big city press conference about what happened.
Dateline NBC
The Premonition
He had a premonition. He believed someone was plotting his murder. I wonder what it must have been like when he saw the face of the person who was about to end his life.
Dateline NBC
The Premonition
Drive down the street, you see statues of Jimmy Stewart. I mean, what's more American than that?
Dateline NBC
The Premonition
To walk in a historic courtroom and see flat-screen televisions and every kind of electronic multimedia device possible, in this case, they put it to use.
Dateline NBC
The Premonition
The jury went back to deliberations. Two more hours passed. In most of the murder trials that I have covered, I could have told you ahead of time what the verdict was going to be. I really wasn't sure what the verdict was going to be in this case.
Dateline NBC
The Premonition
It was stunning to have a state trooper from their community convicted of murder. It really is going to be decades before this community will get over something like this.
Dateline NBC
The Premonition
I still remember being taken back by what I saw. Not only were there people everywhere, there were police and firemen and ambulance. everywhere lining the street.
Dateline NBC
The Premonition
The neighbors were terrified. Because no one in this community wants to think this was a random crime. Do we now lock our doors in Blairsville? Do we now get security systems in Blairsville? This is unheard of. Things like this don't happen here.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
James Craig was arrested for the first-degree murder of his wife, Angela. Prosecutors say he poisoned her protein shakes with potassium cyanide and tetrahydrozoline, which is found in eye drops. Now, if this sounds familiar, it might be because we've talked about the case on the podcast here before last November, when Craig was set to go to trial.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Wow. So those are some pretty big accusations about testimony. That was really important for the defense. So what happens next year?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Next, let's go to Idaho. And there is some big news in the case of Brian Koberger, the man accused of fatally stabbing four University of Idaho students back in 2022. Rachel, what did we learn about this one?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So the defense here is possibly laying the groundwork for alternate suspects, right? Do we know where that blood was found?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So the defense was arguing the arrest warrant should be thrown out. But just this Wednesday, Judge Stephen Hippler issued his ruling on the defense's motions to suppress the DNA information, arrest warrants, and Koberger's cell phone data. So all of that will actually be allowed in the trial this summer. Exactly.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Finally, we're off to Western Maryland for an update in a case that we first told you about a couple of weeks ago. Investigators linked the murders of an elderly man in California, a husband and wife in Pennsylvania, and the fatal shooting of a Vermont border guard to a group of young people called the Zizians. What's the news there, Rachel?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Rachel, thanks so much for bringing us all of that. We are so glad to have you on today. Thank you, Blaine. For our final story this week, we are joined by a very special guest, the most special of guests. Keith Morrison is here to talk about his brand new original podcast, Murder in the Moonlight. Hi, Keith.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
That is, until his defense team withdrew at the last minute on the day that jury selection was set to begin. Our NBC affiliate KUSA 9 News in Denver reported on that development.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Well, I'm so glad to have you here. This story, this is a fascinating one. It starts in Murdoch, Nebraska. It's a small farming town. And you have this line in there in the first episode that I love where it says, heads turn when a stranger drives by. And it really feels like that kind of small town where everybody knows everybody, where that really is true. Yeah.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
No, but that's one heck of a tease. You know, a couple of things about this podcast stand out. We get to see two very different sides of an investigation. There's some really great detective work that happens. And then there's some not so great detective work that happens. And so investigators figure out pretty quickly that there were two people in the house that night. How did they even do that?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Interesting. Wow. How's that for highlighting some detective work? So the story starts in Murdoch, Nebraska, but it doesn't stay there. It ends up being a multi-state investigation involving several law enforcement agencies, right?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So we've got some sound from an upcoming episode. It features an unsuspecting woman in Buffalo, New York, who was running a jewelry manufacturing business. Police asked for her help in tracking down who might have bought the ring just in case it was one of the killers.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
At a hearing last week, we finally got to hear more about the murders that the prosecution says Craig had planned. Dateline producer Tim Eulinger was in the courtroom, and he joins us now to tell us what he learned and where the case could go next. Tim, thank you so much for being here with us.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Yeah, this was definitely a fascinating one, Keith. I can't wait to listen to the entire series. It's fantastic. And next week, episodes will be dropping on Monday and Wednesday. So Keith, we've got a lot of stuff to look forward to. Thank you so much for joining us.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. Andrea Canning will be right back here with you next week. If you wanna find out more about the cases featured on our podcast, check out our website at datelinetruecrimeweekly.com. And to get ad-free listening for all of our podcasts, subscribe to Dateline Premium. Coming up this Friday on Dateline, Andrea has an all-new two-hour episode.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Two schoolgirls murdered in the woods of Delphi, Indiana. For years, the case went unsolved. Police were at a standstill except for one clue, a grainy picture and a gravelly voice captured on one of the girls' cell phones.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
The voice of the killer.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Could these girls help solve their own mystery? Watch A Walk in the Woods, airing this Friday at 9, 8 central on NBC, or stream it starting Saturday on Peacock. Thanks so much for listening. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Frannie Kelly and Katie Ferguson. Our associate producers are Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey. Our senior producer is Liz Brown-Kurloff.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Production and fact-checking help by Sara Kadir. Veronica Mazeka is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original music by Jesse McGinty. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production. Paul Ryan is executive producer. And Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline. Okay. Anything else? All right. Thanks very much. Bye-bye.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
It's got tons of twists and turns. So just to start, can you quickly just remind us, remind our listeners of the original crime that James Craig was accused of, the murder of his wife, Angela?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Wow. Okay. So I guess that begs the question, did Craig have any explanation for why he had that potassium cyanide?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So what are investigators saying about a motive? What are they pointing to there?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Okay, so fast forward to last fall, and Craig is hit with the other charges, solicitation to commit murder and solicitation to commit perjury. What do we know about those accusations?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Those are some mighty explosive allegations. My goodness.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Tim, you were in court for this hearing. What did we learn about the prosecution's case?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly. I'm Blaine Alexander, in for Andrea Canning, who's off this week. It's February 20th, and here's what's on our docket. In Hawaii, a man accused of murdering his wife's acupuncturist ex-lover took the stand in his own defense.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
You're listening in to a story meeting at Dateline headquarters in 30 Rockefeller Center. It's raining, but it's actually pretty mild. Our editorial team is catching up on breaking crime news around the country.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
OK, Tim, so prosecutors are saying that these letters were part of Craig's plan to fabricate evidence. But I'm curious, through all of this, did James Craig have any sort of visible reaction as prosecutors were talking through all of this new evidence?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Craig is now on his third defense team. What did his lawyers have to say at the hearing?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
And what's notable, this is not the first time that Craig has been accused of interfering with his case from jail, right? Prosecutors say that he has allegedly asked other inmates to help him fabricate evidence twice before this incident.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So it seems, Tim, that we know a lot about the prosecution's case from evidence that they've talked about in documents or in hearings in court. What do we know about what James Craig's defense is going to look like?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Any idea of when we will actually see a trial in this?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
And we've got this week's roundup of top crime stories, including the arrest of the leader of a group called the Zizians, which prosecutors believe is connected to six violent deaths. Big rulings on defense motions in Idaho for Brian Koberger. And drama in the latest pretrial hearing in the Karen Reid case.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So we'll be watching very closely this summer. Tim, thank you so much for following all of this and joining us today.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Up next, a Hawaii man is standing trial for the second time on charges he murdered his wife's ex-lover. Last week, jurors got to hear from him for themselves. In Honolulu, it's the final days of Eric Thompson's murder trial. He's accused of killing John Tokuhara, the acupuncturist his wife had a brief affair with back in 2022.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
He and his lawyers were undecided until the last minute on Eric taking the stand in his own defense. But Thursday afternoon, he was sworn in. And he stayed on the stand for three days.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Dateline associate producer Kelly Moody was inside the courtroom, and she joins me now to tell us what Eric says happened between him and his wife, Joyce, and what he was doing that January evening when John Tokuhara died. Kelly, thanks so much for joining us today. Yeah, you bet. First, just kind of remind us what Eric Thompson is accused of.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
What is the defense saying in all of this?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Yeah. So far, it's been pretty similar to the first trial, right? Are the same witnesses being called here?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So one of the big pieces in all of this is that white bucket hat. What's happening with the new testing on that hat?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
On Thursday, Eric Thompson took the stand in his own defense.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Plus, Keith Morrison will be here to fill us in on his latest podcast series, Murder in the Moonlight.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
let her do her thing I probably didn't even pick out that suit myself I think I think Joyce took care of everything and of course the big elephant in the room is his wife's affair right has Eric testified about it and how has he reacted to that portion of this
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
somebody found a gold ring in a place where it didn't belong did it belong to the killer and then you go on a long and winding pathway to find the truth but before all that we're heading back to aurora colorado where a dentist awaiting trial on charges of allegedly murdering his wife was back in court last week facing new charges It all started back in 2023.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
But then, of course, he faced cross-examination by the prosecution. Were they able to land any blows, anything major there?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
What is left to go in this trial?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
This is truly a fascinating case. Kelly, thanks so much. Yeah, you're welcome. Coming up, it's Dateline Roundup, big rulings from the judge in Brian Koberger's case, drama at the courthouse before Karen Reid's second trial, and more about the arrest of the leader of a cult-like group called the Zizians, which police have connected to murders from Pennsylvania to California.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Plus, Keith Morrison will be here to talk about Murder in the Moonlight, his latest podcast series. Welcome back. Joining us for this week's Dateline Roundup is Dateline super producer Rachel White. Hi, Rachel. Hey, Blaine. How are you? I'm good. Glad to have you with us. So we've got a lot to talk about. First up, we are off to Dedham, Massachusetts for an update in the Karen Reid case.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
And you'll remember she's the woman accused of drunkenly backing her SUV into her police officer boyfriend, John O'Keefe, back in 2022 and leaving him to die in the snow.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Okay, so what's the news that we have in the run-up to this retrial?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So what information is the judge talking about here?