Blayne Alexander
Appearances
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
She was just an incredible person to sit down and talk to because you could feel that pain. I mean, you could feel the pain. This didn't make it into the episode, but there was a time when she and I sat down and we looked through younger pictures of her with her brother and sister. And for her to be the only person that remains of that trio was just a really, really sad thing.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
To your point earlier about how emotional this is for so many families, For a lot of people, that's how they channel their energy, right? How they kind of channel their grief, how they channel going through this process of keeping someone's memory alive or pushing for justice or going to the trial, going to the hearings.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
That's kind of their way of being there for their loved one who was taken or whatever. When that ends, and especially if there's no conviction, but even just when that ends and you don't have that place to naturally channel your grief anymore. then what? And that was the heart of what I was trying to get, get at with her. And it's yes, doing something to keep her brother and sister's memory alive.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
But I also just kind of felt that, you know, that need of what do you do once all of this comes to an end, essentially. Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
She's married. She has a daughter. She still lives in Minot. You know, of course, we reached out to her. We reached out to her family. They didn't want to talk. This has been a weight on her, on her family to kind of go through this, you know, holding the suspicion for 18 years and then be acquitted.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
It would be very hard to stay there. Again, we've talked about the size of Minot, right? It's not like you're acquitted in LA. You could just move to a different part, right? It's a very different, very different story.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
You know, this was an interesting story for me to do, Josh, because this was my first time doing an acquittal story for Dayline. Not like I have a whole heck of a lot of them under my belt, but it was a very different process.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
And kudos to the jurors, because at least in the one that we talked to who kind of talked about the deliberations that were going on, they really took this seriously. And I think that that piece, the circumstantial evidence piece, is something that they just couldn't get past, plus the number of other suspects.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
Well, I think, and Peggy, to that point, I don't think that the family would disagree with her. I'll say that. I think that they, even just over the course of the 15 years between murder and arrest, felt, is everything being done? Don't forget about us kind of thing, right? And so I don't, you know, obviously they were not very happy with the outcome.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
On the same thing. You know, that is a very fantastic question. But it's not something that was presented, not something that was part of evidence.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
You cannot be tried twice for the same crime. You're acquitted and you're done.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
I was just going to say, too, you know, I mean, Klug made it very clear that it's case closed. Blaine, thank you. It was a joy as always, my friend. Thank you so much.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
Almost throughout, I would say, starting with the family, because typically, you know, when you sit down with families, you kind of have a there's a hate to use the word closure because you don't bring the person back.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
It's rare, right? And in cases like this, because I mean, I think when you have a murder case, you take it all the way to the courtroom. Typically, by the time you get there, you're pretty certain if you're the prosecutor that you're going to get a conviction. That was obviously not the case here. So it was a very different type of story to tell.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
And to your point about the suspects, there were a lot of them. And I think that that's what sowed a lot of seeds of doubt in the jury. When you heard from our juror, he was like, yeah, I was able to eliminate two of them and say they definitely didn't do it. But that still left him with several other people that he thought could have possibly done it.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
And you don't typically have that many suspects who kind of have to some degree equal weight and impossibility of guilt.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
There wasn't. I mean, it was a circumstantial case to begin with. There wasn't physical evidence. You know, in a number of stories we do, they never find the murder weapon, right? Here, the murder weapon was right on the bed, right next to Anita. But even that didn't give them any sort of DNA evidence, any sort of forensic evidence to lead them any closer to the killer.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
So there were all of these different things that fell through. The typical things that you think of as this is what's going to be something that points to the eventual killer. None of those existed for investigators.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
And that's the other question, right? Was somebody wearing gloves? Was it more planned than what prosecutors were kind of saying would have been more of an act of anger between two roommates? If that were the case, you're not putting on gloves, you're not wiping off evidence.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
And so, yes, I think that that was a big hole, of course, when it came to the investigation, why it took so long for an arrest to be made and then ultimately why there was an acquittal.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
That's the prosecution's theory, yes. They said, though, that there were a number of things that were showing that it was getting increasingly tense between the two of them.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
What prosecutors would point to would be rage, right? That it was just one of those crimes of passion, a fit of rage. That's kind of what prosecutors, you know, walked in with.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
There wasn't. There wasn't. And what was interesting, I mean, her stab wounds were obviously fatal, but they were minimal. She was stabbed twice. So it wasn't this kind of repeated in and out. It was two stab wounds.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
There was also a theory of maybe she was stabbed in her sleep. But you're absolutely right. I mean, the knife for everything that it could have represented in this investigation really yielded nothing.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
I really love when we do the ride-alongs. It's when you get out in the field and kind of get people more in their element that you really kind of get a sense of what they were thinking that day, what they were feeling that day. I also enjoyed it because it was at the time that I did the interview with him, that was my first trip to Minot, North Dakota.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
And so he was able to kind of just show me around. I mean, I got a sense of how quickly he could get to the murder scene, right? Seeing the apartment itself. You know, one thing that he told me that I thought was interesting was that They were doing a lot of the canvassing, like knocking on the doors, talking to people.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
And a lot of folks just didn't really have much information about her or hadn't seen anything or heard anything. And so some of those things that kind of, you know, come in handy, I guess you could say, if you're an investigator early on in the investigation, they didn't have a lot of that stuff.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
It was in the front of their head. I mean, it was forefront in their mind. I mean, I really think that it was, A combination of the death itself being so hard hitting for people there. Again, college students, that was the talk of Minot State University. That was the talk of anyone in town. That was the talk of Butte nearby. I mean, the hometown where she was from.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
So everyone was talking about it. There was fear. There was also the very real, you know, question of. Who did this and how could they have gotten away with this? I thought it was so telling when we heard from Klug once he became chief that they almost kind of put up this reminder of Anita Knudson.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
I mean, they pulled out her binders, put her picture up, and people who were in the investigations division had to walk past that every day. Just a reminder of, hey... This is still open. We need to do something about this. And then you had a family, a very diligent family. I mean, the billboards went up. They had this Facebook page that really gained a lot of traction, which was a big deal.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
Yeah. No, absolutely not. They're still there. That faded photograph is still very much hanging. And so, yes, it impacted the community in a way that, to your point, a lot of others don't. A lot of other places don't have.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
I think that I have a lot of thoughts about sitting down with Anna Knudsen. One... What she and her family have had to go through in losing not only Anita, but losing Daniel, who died by suicide a few years later, was really unbelievable. And they all have carried this sense of the killer, whomever the killer may be, took from their family twice.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
And so they've had this pain that has then been compounded. They were waiting for an arrest. The arrest happened and then they had an acquittal. And so it really is a difficult place for them. And I think when you saw their parents on the stand, I mean, they are elderly. Yes, Sharon was 80 years old. Gordon was 90.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
And I think another thing, too, that our viewers don't know, this trial happened a good three hours from where they lived. There was a big fundraiser around town to kind of make it so that they wouldn't have to drive back and forth so that they could be taken care of and put up down there. But they had to be away from home for several weeks for the duration of this trial.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
And, you know, again, when I spoke with one of Anita's friends, they said we really were holding on to some sort of justice for her parents because they have been through so much. they were thinking, okay, this is going to be the thing for them. And so that sense of disappointment, but especially at that age, after going through so much loss, I can't imagine and I really feel for them.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
And it's emotional, too, because, again, every time they have to go in there, they're in the courtroom. And I'm speaking generally any families in the courtroom with the person they believe to be the killer of their loved one. So you're talking about sitting a few feet away every time that you have to go in there, seeing their family and friends. And so it was difficult. You know, that's...
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
One of the reasons I asked the question, would they consider a wrongful death suit? Would they consider some sort of civil lawsuit? And they basically said no, because that would mean taking Gordon and Sharon, Anita's parents, through more. And they just needed it to end for them. That's what Karen and Anna told me.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
They got a lot of flack for that online, by the way. I'm sure. There were a lot of angry comments. There were a lot of people who said that was just a terrible taste, poor taste. And I think, you know, talking to Anna... She said, yes, that was a hard moment hearing the not guilty. But she said when she heard that celebration on the other side, she said, I just felt the room getting smaller.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Murder in Minot
I just had to get out of there. I'm curious when you, I mean, have you, obviously acquittals are rare. So this is a rare thing anyway. Can you recall such a courtroom response?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
Now, I should say this about the clip that we just played. Dateline actually first heard about Karen's case through Jenna, the person that you just heard from, who submitted it years ago as part of our Cold Case Spotlight series. Of course, that's our online article series where we highlight unsolved cold cases around the country.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
But I think that it just really speaks to how, you know, when our viewers send us things, we listen to them. We look into these types of things.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
And to that point, I want to give this plug. If you have a cold case, if you're listening, you have a cold case that you'd like to be featured, please submit it to us. You can submit it to us on social media at Dateline NBC. Well, Keith, it has been a true joy talking Dateline with you. I appreciate it.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
Two wins in my column. Absolutely. I will take it. As a newbie, I will absolutely take it. Thank you, Keith.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
Thank you. Thank you, my friend. I'm so glad to be here. And after the break, I'm going to be joined by Dateline Associate Producer Sam Springer, who will help answer some viewer and listener questions about the show from social media. Well, guys, I'm here now joined by Dateline Associate Producer Sam Springer, who worked very hard on this episode.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
And we are here to answer some of your social media questions. Hi, Sam. Hi, how are you? I'm good. So glad to be here with you. And also just for our eagle-eared listeners who may hear a difference in sound, I'm recording this portion from my car because I'm getting ready to jump into election coverage for the next few days. So if it sounds a little different, that's why.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
OK, Sam, we have a lot of people who had a lot of thoughts about this episode. So let's just jump right in. This one is from Susie Mack on Facebook, who writes, why wasn't that anonymous phone call investigated more? And Susie, I have to say, I had kind of the same question. That's the phone call that came in for a possible location for Karen's remains.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
And that was something that was certainly talked about a lot. But what do we know about that one?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
So it didn't even seem like something that was worth necessarily chasing down because they got so many just kind of off-the-wall calls.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
Right. Exactly. Interesting. OK, here's one from Twitter or X. This is from at Art One Vegan. Why is David Swift still in prison?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
OK, so he has to stay incarcerated until they get this manslaughter trial underway. And that could be some time.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
OK, OK. Let's go to Chris Hamm on Facebook, who writes, Who is the man in the multicolored suit sitting behind whoever is speaking at the lectern during the trial? We got a lot of comments about this man and my eyes went to him as well when I watched. I said, OK, he's he's there. You notice him.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
Well, question. Was it the same colorful suit every day, or did he have, like, a new colorful suit for each day of the trial?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
That's talent. That's dedication to your craft right there. Well, there we go. Question answered. Okay. There was plenty of Keith love in these comments. This question from Rachel Wellington. Rachel writes, would love Keith Morrison to read stories about mysteries. He is the best storyteller ever. Well, Rachel, you are in luck.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
I love it. You did that very well. The Dead Alive. You almost channeled a little Keith there yourself when you said that title.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
I love it. Well, this was a lot of fun. Definitely an episode that got a lot of people talking. So Dateline Associate Producer Samantha Springer, so good to have you here with us today. Thank you. Thank you. And that's it for Talking Dateline for this week. Remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can reach us 24-7 on social media at Dateline NBC.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
You know what? Heather was fascinating to me. There is a laundry list of fascinating characters, but I think Heather's probably at the top of my list.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
Disruptor with a capital D. You know, I'm curious, though, because when we do episodes, every now and then you'll come across kind of like a Heather, somebody who really doesn't have anything to do with the story, but comes in and starts investigating or gets interested or really kind of attaches themselves to it.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
I'm curious, as you spoke to her, what was it that really drove her and motivated her throughout this?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
You are the, my friend. Well, this episode is called After the Halloween Party, and if you haven't seen it, it's the episode that's right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed. So make sure you go there, listen to it, or stream it on Peacock, and then come right back here. And for this Talking Dateline, Keith has an extra clip that didn't make it into the show.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
I'm curious, what was it like, Keith, for you and the team to try and get to the bottom of these swingers rumors, right? Like it's not easy reporting on secrets, but especially when you're talking about a small town like this.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
It was like an unspoken secret, but an unspoken, the worst kept secret kind of? Uh-huh.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
Mm-hmm. Let's talk about the investigation because there were so many pieces here to this, of course, as well. One thing that stood out when that kind of first call came in and they said, we seem to have misplaced her about a missing person. I've certainly never heard anybody described it as that way. Talk to me a little bit more about that. What do we think was behind that phrase?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
Let's talk about that horse search. The fact that a dozen, more than a dozen of Karen's friends went out on horseback to search for her. It was so interesting to me because it really, in many ways, told me a lot about that town and about that community. One, that there is a prevalence of horses to jump on. But the fact that all of them came together, they all went out on searches.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
Of course, we've done stories where people kind of go out and search by foot. But talk a little bit more about that scene and that kind of community coming together to find her.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
Right, exactly. Search animals. You know, the kudzu, but the kudzu vines almost kind of had a sort of, they almost kind of became.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
But they almost became their own character. The fact that they were in a strange sort of sense kind of concealing this body and it wasn't until the season changed that they could find her. That was striking to me.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
Then I'll be talking with Dateline associate producer Sam Springer, who will join me to answer some of your social media questions about the episode. But just a quick recap, the Dyersburg, Tennessee community was at a loss when Karen Swift, a local mother of four, went missing after a Halloween party on October 29th, 2011. It took investigators six weeks to find Karen's body.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
That is very true. When we talk about this investigation, of course, we talk about the fact that this is kind of just hanging there, right? That nobody has been convicted of this yet. When you do a story like this and somebody is acquitted, but there's another charge pending, what is that like talking to the people afterwards? I mean, the attorneys put so much into this case.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
As I was watching this, and I watched this episode a couple of times just to, you know, make sure that I got all the nuance. I did.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
It was a fascinating episode. In the final episode. Act, as we call them, you know, each episode is 12 parts. Final act is you're introducing the prosecution team for the final time. And you do these establishing shots, right, where you say, oh, you know, here are the people and show them kind of sitting. It starts with a shot of an F. Lee Bailey book and then goes to the prosecution.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
And this is before – I will never say. Yeah. That gives me the answer I need.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
I said F. Lee Bailey. That can't be a coincidence.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
Just for our viewers, I want to say, in case they're driving, I don't want them to have to start Googling who this is that we're talking about. Some people would say that he was one of the greatest attorneys of the 20th century, but he was, at least for me— In his mind, anyway. In his mind, right?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
He was well known because he was part of the dream team for the O.J. Simpson trial, got him acquitted on murder back in the early 90s.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
When we get back, Keith is going to share a podcast exclusive clip from an interview with Jenna and Gerald Scott. Those were Karen's neighbors when she was growing up. You know, let's talk about Ashley. Of all the many people that you talked to that we heard from in this story, Ashley absolutely stayed with me.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
And I'm sure that was the case for so many of our viewers because you can't help but just feel so terrible for her.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
When I heard her say that, and you asked her, you said, is there even an inkling, even a little bit? And she said, absolutely not. I almost wondered if that was a sort of method of self-protection for her, that she couldn't bring herself to believe that her dad had anything to do with it.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
And it took prosecutors 11 years to charge her husband, David Swift, with her murder. At his 2024 trial, the jury was not able to agree that David killed Karen, meaning that this case is still very much open. All right, Keith, let's talk Dateline.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
there was something about that that gave me chills because she was so convinced. As you know, I've got two of these Dateline episodes under my belt at this point. And the second one that I've done had an interview that was very similar. There's something about interviewing an adult who was a child when they lost their parent because the memory is formed as a child.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
So even though they're speaking to you as an adult, they've lived their lives, when they talk about that moment, It's almost like you're talking to that nine-year-old, right?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
Hello, everyone. I'm Blayne Alexander, and we are talking Dateline. Today, I'm joined here by the Keith Morrison. Hi, Keith.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
You know what? I want to start right there, actually, because I was just fascinated by the town itself, by Dyersburg. I mean, this was a small town. We're talking about a lot of people who knew each other and a lot of people who seemed to have opinions about how other folks were kind of living their lives, right? Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
Certainly, we've talked a lot about Karen, and I was fascinated to hear so much about her, though. We have an extra clip from an interview with Jenna and Gerald Scott. They were Karen's neighbors when she was growing up. gave us more of a look into who Karen was. Let's listen.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: After the Halloween Party
Especially a mother, right? A mother of four. I remember at some point in the episode, Ashley says, we would beg her not to go out at night. Stay with us. Stay with us. And she would go anyway, right?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Michelle, Shantae's mother, was really upset about that. She was certainly noting the compassion that wasn't shown to her daughter. But then also this was a place that was very special to Shantae, right? This was Shantae's safe space. And, you know, obviously, Ryan, his family had a relationship with the church and the pastor as well.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And I should mention our team reached out to the pastor a number of times and he never responded. And Ryan's parents declined interview. but she was just very upset by the fact that the place that was so important, Shantae could receive such a, such a confession.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Sure. And I, You know, and I asked that question. This is somebody that you've been looking for for 18 months, right? The crime is brutal. And as soon as you got word, why didn't why weren't the police immediately called? Why was that allowed to happen? That in the end, he was kind of able to do things on his own terms to a degree. Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Being able to go home, his parents taking him to church, going to the sheriff's office rather than, you know, law enforcement coming in, carting him away. And that's the end of it.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
The investigators are very clear about that, too. It was, yes, we have the sketch. Yes, we now have this name. But that would not be enough to take into court. That wouldn't be enough to convict someone, certainly. So it led them to Ryan. But it was the fact that Ryan knew the things that only the killer would know. Right.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Like, yes, obviously, the DNA match was what really, really tied it together.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Absolutely. There's so much to even undertake a story that's as long as the things that we do for Dateline. You have to gather so much information, right? Like by the time we finish these stories, you feel like you're an expert on these cases. And so there are all these different facts and different pieces of sound and information that you want to cram in.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Brandon, first I'll say, one, thank you so much for the kind welcome. I really appreciate it. And this just goes to prove that our Dateline viewers are basically detectives in and of themselves. I mean, that's a fantastic question. So we never actually got a great answer to that. John, the boyfriend, Shantae's boyfriend, said that he had mentioned Ryan's name, but it never really went anywhere.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
We don't know the degree to which investigators went down that road.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Catherine, thank you for your question. A great question. Yes, that's what investigators believe. And so what happened was the Parabon image was released. Soon after that, Ryan, who had been at his parents' house, disappeared. After several days or so on the run, he came back and went to the church.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Oh, that's the most fun part about this. Whether it's on social media or the new phone number we have, I love hearing people's voices and actually asking the question. So more of that, please.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And it shows how closely she's paying attention because, yes, you did mention that in his childhood, he had this chihuahua that he would try and drown. But, you know, that is, yes, an early indicator. It starts with animals and then escalates from there.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Well, not only the church, but that's something that investigator Scott Bird said to me multiple times. Had it not been for the fact that they were able to find her as quickly as they did, they would not have been able to track down the killer without that evidence. So, yes, he is not shy about the fact that he believes that this was absolutely divine intervention.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
But even in two hours, somehow you run out of time. So that's why I'm grateful for talking Dateline, because we can talk about all of these other things that never made it into the actual show.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
That's so kind. I don't take that lightly. I really appreciate hearing from Linda. Thank you for that comment.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
I just, I have so much love for Michelle. My heart really, really goes out to her and to Stephen, Shantae's stepfather, for both of them to sit down and talk with us and trust us to tell Shantae's story in the right way, in a respectful way, really meant a lot. So thank you, Michelle, for that.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
You know, I've got to say the, a few hours before this episode aired on Friday, I got a text from the very first Dateline interview I ever did. It was Jolene and she was a sister-in-law of Heidi Furcus. And that was my story that aired in 2023. And yes, it will always stay with me. And I think all of these families will because
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
You know, when you do a story, to your point about the depth that we go to kind of know and understand the story, the case, but also the person, that kind of a connection isn't one that goes away quickly.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Thank you so much, Josh. This was one that will stay with me and an honor to do this one. Thank you, my friend.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
You know, I'd done a ton of research for this story, read about it, all of that good stuff, read previous, you know, news clips and everything. I hadn't actually seen the house for myself. And so I didn't see it until I was riding with the investigator, Investigator Bird. We had GoPros in the car and he was kind of driving me down the dirt roads. And then we get there.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And immediately I said, oh, wow. You can immediately see why this place is called The Haunted House. I mean, it looks right out of central casting of what you would expect to see a haunted house look like. All broken down inside. It looks like a horror movie. It does. It does. It does. And then you kind of consider some of the other things. I mean, there is a fence around it, right?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
That, you know, kind of tells people to keep out. If you go inside there, the floorboards aren't there. You can't really walk through. There are animals inside and creatures. And then there's this storm cellar, which... I wanted to when we were putting this together, we wanted to make sure that everyone understands what a storm cellar is. Right. I grew up in Oklahoma.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Everybody has storm cellars for the most part. Lots of people have them. But this kind of underground place where you go for tornadoes and even tornadoes. And so that's where Shantae was ultimately found. And so the place itself almost becomes a character in the story just because of how how creepy it was, to be honest.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And just to break down that isolation a little bit more, Dallas probably is the nearest big city, Dallas-Fort Worth. That's a good two and a half hour, maybe three hour drive from Brownwood. But then the place where this happened, where Shantae lived, is actually slightly to the north of Brownwood.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And so you have this kind of small town anyway, but then an even smaller community that's kind of nestled around the lakes. When you talk about a small community, I mean that everyone truly knows everyone there.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And I'm glad. I'm glad to hear that because everybody that I spoke to really said that exact same thing. I mean, she was feisty. She had her opinion. She had her thoughts. Her routine with the walking was unlike anything anyone had ever seen. She'd wave at the car. She'd wave at the neighbors, right? People knew her.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And when she would go into church, everyone was just kind of taken by just how involved she was. I mean, really how, how moved she was by the music, how much she enjoyed being there. And that's something that, that drew a lot of people to her as well.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Yeah. And, you know, when I talked with both of the, you know, Ranger Shea and Investigator Scott Byrd and both of them were just you could tell they were personally impacted by this case that they I mean, they put a lot of just kind of their own emotion and obviously brainpower into this.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
But when they talked about John, I mean, they talked about the fact that, yes, he saw her not too long before she disappeared. There were the people who said, OK, maybe they argued and maybe he was possessive and deleting of the text messages. And then, you know, we talk about this. He slept outside in his car after he realized that. Chante wasn't inside.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And that was something that struck them as odd. So there were these kind of string of just odd things that made them certainly go further down that rabbit hole.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
I'm glad that he was able to kind of tell his story, right? To, to, to in his own words, because he makes the point that even though he was cleared from, you know, by investigators pretty early on, a lot of the people in the community were looking at him and saying, okay, clearly it's John, clearly it's the boyfriend. Like that's the only way to go. And so, you know,
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
To have that hanging over his head until there was ultimately an arrest, which came more than a year later, was also something that was difficult for him as well. So I'm glad that he was able to talk. I'm glad he agreed to speak with us. How did you... Was it hard to get him? You know, well, one, I want to say something about sitting down and talking to him. John was so...
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
It was so clear that he was just still so impacted by everything that happened to Shantae. He left Brownwood for a while. He moved away. He got work elsewhere. You know, he's still close with her family today, by the way. But he had to leave. He just kind of couldn't necessarily deal with this for a while and then came back to talk.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
I asked him how he felt after the interview and he said he felt relieved. And so I think that he was glad to be able to tell his story, glad to be able to talk about his love for Shantae because it was something that had come under question during this investigation. It was something that even when I talked to him, I could tell he was still upset by it and rightfully so. Right.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
But but I could tell that, you know, him just talking about and being able to express that love was was important to him.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
So here's what's funny. I don't... Speaking of picking up things from your grandparents, Walker, Texas Ranger was my grandpa's one of his favorite shows. You guys remember that? Love that. And so after I finished my long interview with Ranger Shay, I said, I have to say, I was very excited to interview you today because I love Walker, Texas Ranger. And he just fell out laughing.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And so but I asked him, I said, I need to know about this hat. And he says, yes, it's part of the uniform. But here's the thing. They have to be a light color because in the old Westerns, dark color represents the bad guy. And so, yeah, the bad guy. So you have to have your light colored hat. He told me about it, gave me the specific name of it and everything.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
It brings so much character, though, right?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And I think you're absolutely right. Yes, those was kind of a roadmap of their actual investigation. But what was so frustrating? And this is something that Investigator Bird kept coming back to when he talked to me. It was so frustrating because he had the killer's DNA right there in his hand. I mean, it's the best evidence you can use to identify someone, but I don't know who it is.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
So he said at one point they were so frustrated. They said, we're just going to set up at this kind of four-way stop sign and just ask everybody who passes for DNA.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
It paid off. It absolutely paid off. And talking with Investigator Byrd, there were several things that he believes really lined up. One of them is that with this, they choose an age of what they're going to make the sketch look like. And it was within a year of Ryan Riggs' actual age. And so had they chosen, I don't know, a 75-year-old man or something, it obviously wouldn't have looked like him.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Two, though, they talk about going through pictures, and this was one of the pictures on his Facebook page, believe it or not, that actually looked almost exactly like that.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Absolutely. I mean, I think probably one of the strongest examples of that is when they're talking with Ryan at the end, after he's done this confession in church, which was stunning in and of itself, the way that he is just so casually describing what he did to Shantae, not seeming to flinch, not seeming upset. That's something that you have to see, I think, to get the full effect of that.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Absolutely is. There is nobody I would rather do this Talking Dateline with than you, Josh. So thank you.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
They really did. I think also when you juxtapose, we talked about the haunted house being a character. The church in its own way was also a character, right? Because you have this house of evil, the haunted house. But then at the end, the confession happens in the house of worship, right? Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
I think that especially when you talk with the Lamans, I mean, they were scarred by what happened there in church, by what happened, what was supposed to be this kind of safe sanctuary of a space. And so some of that evil did infiltrate the church as well.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And I can tee it up real quick. I am very glad that we talked with the Lamans, Russell and Linda, and appreciative to them for speaking with us because this is something that clearly still upsets them today. You know, they're both people of very deep faith, very deep Christian faith. He was a leader in the church.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
And so to kind of have this, we love, we forgive, but also we love Chante and you did a terrible thing to her. How do you kind of... marry those two thoughts. So anyway, they talk about it a little bit more in this piece, in this clip here. You've gone through a lot from mourning the death of someone who was like a family member to months of not knowing to now these conflicted emotions.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
As you sit here today, how has this whole experience changed you?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
Linda, I'd ask you the same question. How has this whole experience changed you?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Haunted House Confession
I think that that section of interview could be very difficult for a lot of people to listen to, of course, not least of all Shantae's family. But this notion of when you kind of look at the context of how Ryan was... able to go in front of his church, confess, have people in some way show support, and then proceed on to the sheriff's office and confess there and face the consequences.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
Some interesting ones. OK, so Stacy at Stacy Delilah on X says she's a pharmacist and let him take a sketchy supplement from Mexico. Interesting.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
OK, Cheryl Haley Rodriguez on Facebook wrote, was her leukemia diagnosis ever investigated?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
Here's a question from Julie Waters Hamrick, who wrote on Facebook, why wasn't there an autopsy done?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
Hmm. That's super interesting. OK, here's one from Randy Giamarco at Randy Tony G3 on X. So Randy writes, Michael must have wanted receipts and she didn't have any. So she killed him.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
The way that you guys revealed in the episode, the degree of their, I don't know, financial affluence, I guess you could just say, I mean, like, oh, that escalated quickly. You know, I mean, you think that they're a beautiful family, little league, but then when you hear just kind of like about the money and the way they're living this high life, that was a big surprise.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
Yeah. I have a question along those lines. This is coming from my own viewer at home. Jay had this question.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
A question that needs answering. So we're talking about this and he says, you know, if he was buying these cars, like talked about the fact that he had the cars, like he had to have had some transparency into what the bank account was looking like. How could he not have known if he was making big ticket purchases too?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
Jay will be very happy that we addressed his question.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
He definitely does. Okay, here's one. We actually asked our listeners a question. Why do you think Natalie sent around that photo of Michael, the photo of him on the floor? Here's a response from Ella at Twisted Fairytale on X. Ella writes... In her warped mind, it was a sort of an alibi or she's sick and proud?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
And I think that it would be even more impactful in a small town, in a smaller community like that.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
Absolutely. Wow. A lot of great questions that we had from our viewers as always.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
Yes, yes. And this was an excellent episode, Andrea. Thank you so much for talking Dateline with me. Thank you. And that's it for Talking Dateline this week. Remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, You can always reach us 24-7 on social media at Dateline NBC.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
And if you have a question for Talking Dateline, you can record a message and send it to us on social media or you can leave a voicemail. Here's that phone number, 212-413-5252 for a chance to be featured on a future Dateline episode. Also this Friday at 9, 8 central, I've got an all new two hour Dateline for you. So please be sure to check it out. See you then on Dateline on NBC.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
And as always, thanks so much for listening.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
Exactly. So let's talk about this Ponzi scheme, because before we get to the crime of murder, the crime that we first deal with in this episode is fraud. So first, I was just really interested in the arms business in the first place. Like, who knew that it was so easy to go from pharmacy to...
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
And it's taking money from family, right? Taking from your best friend.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
It's your best friends. I think the biggest question in all of this, Andrea, as I was watching, as I'm sure everybody else was watching, did Michael know about this scheme? Right. Like, that's certainly what the defense says, that he was in on this thing from the very beginning. But I'm curious, is there any chance that he actually knew what was going on or was he completely in the dark here?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
In 2019, the sudden death of Michael Cochran, a young dad from West Virginia, left his family and friends reeling. But an investigation pulled back the curtain on their storybook family life to reveal a planned killing and a sinister scheme. For this Talking Dateline episode, we have an extra clip from Andrea's interview with Michael's best friend, Chris Davis.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
I mean, you have to have a lot of trust, right? Like he trusted her. You have trust when you're in marriage. You have trust when you're in business. So you kind of think, OK, she's handling this. She says she is. I'm moving on to something else. And I know it's handled.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
It also kind of this is a complete aside. Listening to this, it had a lot of echoes of the Alec Murdoch case. Someone else just said that to me. Financial issues and then doing all of these things to keep someone from finding out and then murder at the end, right? It really, really reminded me of that. I mean, this beautiful fairy tale life, everything is perfect, but really it wasn't.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
You know, I mean, we talked earlier about just the utter betrayal of, you know, scamming the people that are closest to her. Right. I mean, the people that are closest to them in their lives. I'm curious how they're doing in terms of just kind of like recovering from all of this. I mean, those are tremendous amounts of money that they lost.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
Of course. Yeah. When we get back, we've got a podcast exclusive clip from Andrea's interview with Michael's best friend, Chris Davis. Let's talk about Michael's death. It was really tragic in so many ways to hear several of his family members talk about how they said goodbye, their last goodbyes to him. And at the time, many of them were like, OK, this is natural causes.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
All right, Andrea, so let's talk Dateline. Let's do it. So, Andrea, I always kind of like rank Dateline episodes by the amount of times that I talk to myself while I'm watching the episode. And this one, I was giving very authentic exclamations throughout the entire episode.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
This is just something that unfortunately just happened.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
Hi, everyone. I am Blayne Alexander, and this is Talking Dateline. I'm joined today by Andrea Canning to discuss her latest episode, The Devil's in the Details. Hi, Andrea. Hey, Blayne. Hey. Okay, so if you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed. So go there, listen to it, or stream it on Peacock, and then come right back here. Just a quick recap.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
Was there any proof that Michael had been poisoned other times before his death? Was he actually having seizures? Like, kind of what was his medical history up until that point?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
I think what was interesting to me is that Natalie's a pharmacist, so she understands, theoretically, how these things work, right? Like, if you or I were to try and poison someone, like... I'd have to Google. I wouldn't know inherently what one is supposed to do. But to have an understanding kind of how medicine reacts with the body, I think, was certainly an interesting tidbit as well.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
Let's talk for a second about poison as a murder weapon of choice, right? I mean, I know that it's something that you've talked about a number of times on the True Crime Weekly podcast. Mm-hmm. I mean, we've seen it. We've seen, right, like eye drops sometimes as different options.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
Let's kind of go to the beginning and just talk about the storybook life, right? I mean, because that's a really a good way to put it. They were a gorgeous family. She's a pharmacist. I mean, they were very much a successful family. Two cute kids. Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
Andrea, I've got to say, next time you update your resume, you need to put poison expert because you know a lot about a lot of these things, my dear.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
Fascinating. You know, I have to say that sometimes, I mean, by the time typically when we watch these episodes, by the time we get to, you know, towards the end, when we're kind of dissecting the You kind of get a sense of which way it's going to go, right? This one, both sides had me. Like, if I was a juror, I would have had a very hard time trying to kind of bring a verdict in this one.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
You know, that's hard to get around. So it was Jennifer and Chris who gave Natalie that insulin. Like, how do they—do they wrestle with that?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
And Andrea, I know that you have some extra sound from Chris and Jennifer about the moment they realized what had happened. Let's listen to that.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
Yeah. I thought that Chris was so, oh my goodness, he was just such a strong, compelling interview in this. His grief over losing his friend is still so raw.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Devil's in the Details
They're so amazing for doing that. I also think that speaks just to how much they thought of their friend, that they would do something like that and really kind of dredge up those feelings and do that interview for him. Up next, we are taking your questions from social media. Hi. OK, we are back and we're going to answer some of your questions from social media. Andrea, you ready? I'm ready.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
But definitely over the years, people have predicted their own murders on Dateline, sadly.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
Yeah. And he got anything but that. And that's not what he deserved.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
We do. Yeah, we do a lot of them. There's one case that I would like to do, Olivia Lone Bear. She is an indigenous woman that we talked about on an episode that I did. She was found in a lake in her car in the passenger seat. And that case has gone unsolved. But I would like to do that as a full dateline.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
That was a great question. No, I can absolutely tell you that they are friends and they love rubbing each other and they love, you know, getting into these conversations with each other. And I've been around them so many times and I have never seen anything but love between those two. And only Josh and Keith, right?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
Well, it's always horrible when a child has to be the one to find someone who has died. It happens too often where children are dragged into these things where they have to see these horrific things that they can't unsee. And imagine how that shapes your life at that point. You know, that you've seen something so gory and awful and you're just a child.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
Yeah. I mean, in this case, the neighbor was, you know, kind of collateral damage, right? That he had to be the one... To find him.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
Yeah. I mean, he put his mind to something. He set out to do what he wanted to do and he made it happen.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
No. Absolutely not. No. I think I've told this story before. I'm going to date myself here, but I also lived in the country. Okay. We had three channels. And, you know, after school, six o'clock rolls around. All I want to do is watch TV. And all that would come on was the news. And I'm like, darn news. you know, I don't like this is all that's on my three channels. What am I supposed to go do?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
Read a book. And then I went on a shoot with like a TV commercial. And then I was like, I'm kind of interested in TV. And then that just kind of unraveled into TV news. And then now I'm like a news junkie. That's all I watch now is like during the day is like news, news, news. That is so fascinating. But at first you're like, no, absolutely not. Oh, gosh, no, no, I just couldn't. What about you?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
Were you like on your dad's lap going? I'm going to be a reporter. Yes, I was the exact opposite.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
I think he was like, you know, I got the Budweiser girl. I got the homecoming queen. Yeah. You know, right? There's a lot of guys who would be excited about that, right? That they got, like, the girl that all the guys want. Because the Budweiser girls back in the day, I don't know if they still have them, but, you know, they were popular. Yeah. Michelle was definitely attractive.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
Yeah, I think John wanted a family so badly. And he certainly wanted a child with Michelle. But I think this was a way to just kickstart that family that he'd wanted so badly. He stepped right in as a father figure to her children. Yeah. And he was in love with her and she was a package deal. Yeah. Especially after having lost his own parents. Right.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
This kind of longing for family or longing for his dad. And then his mom, of course, later in life. But yeah, like losing his dad, you know, when he was just a baby.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
So he was able to be a dad to her kids and then ultimately to their child that they adopted from Russia.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
You know, what is it? Don't throw stones at glass houses. I just feel like if you're going to have an affair, then you really... Can't judge your partner for having an affair.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
Yeah. Like what if it was amicable? What if there was like a different way to handle it? Could his life have been spared?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
I know. I know. Yeah. Like, it's amazing. She just was on it. I remember when I had to go to an interview at a jail and I had my kids with me because we were doing like a handoff or something. Somebody was coming to get them because we had been somewhere. And they were always asking me when they were little, what does a jail look like? What is a jail? And I'm like, well, here you go.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
Let's talk Dateline. Hey, Blaine. Hey, Andrea. How are you? I'm good. I haven't even seen you in the new year. So it's a little late, but happy new year, Blaine. Thank you. It's always appropriate. And happy new year back to you.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
We're at the jail now. We're not going inside. You're not. I think a lot of moms would
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
And it's always like add sort of that extra layer of chilling moments when you get access to the house where the murder happened or the field or whatever it may be, because you're really going back to that moment exactly where you can see that person like going through what they went through. Of course.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
I'm trying to think if I've interviewed other psychics. I probably have at some point, but no one stands out more than the sisters. Oh, my gosh. I mean, I still remember sitting there outside talking to them. They were funny, but they said that they they felt a dog tag. You know, they were thinking military, but they weren't that far off.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
I mean, you know, police, military, you know, maybe that's like where they're, you know.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
But then there's people who actually believe in psychics as well. So maybe they're not desperate. They just actually really believe- And the power of that. Yeah, the power of that. I mean, I've I've been to psychics in my life. I wouldn't say that I'm like some huge psychic believer or regular visitor to a psychic. But I remember it's so funny. I still have the piece of paper, the psychic.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
This was before I was married. She said she was writing everything down and she said she said, your your husband is up in the air. And I was like, well, up in the air. Yeah, of course he's up in the air. Like everyone's husband is like up in the air if you're single, right? Like, and then I ended up marrying a pilot. A pilot, yes, that's amazing. He was up in the air.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
Yeah, I'm glad we interviewed them because we don't usually get to interview psychics. And sometimes like police will, like in this, Corporal Lydic was like, You know what? Any whatever helps at this point.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
Yeah, that was interesting because those shoes were not available for purchase in the area. And then they, of course, they find out that Foley has ordered those shoes through like a law enforcement type, you know, website where you can, you know, I mean, what are the odds?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
Right. And I'm going to use a pun, gumshoe detective work at its best.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
Well, I think it was that whole, you know, he's a state trooper and she's being told not to interview him or Michelle, which is just odd. That baffles me to this day. And also apparently Trooper Foley would make comments like, you know, I wish he was dead and, you know, and things like that. And they're going through a divorce. I mean, hello. That's the first place you look.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
It is wild. And it's something we see in different forms on Dateline, where someone writes a letter to themselves, or they write it to someone else, or they tell someone, you know, if something happens to me, you know, so this was... more uncommon because he's paying money and he's actually like enlisting the help of his attorney.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
So so, you know, putting those the fingernails like I think she just had that instinct. I think she was just nervous that given his connection to the state police, like I'm going to keep these a little closer.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
DNA is an investigator's best friend. Those fingernails just became everything.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
Do you have that hesitation, though, of How am I going to convince these people? I'm a scientist. You know, it's a different animal going into a courtroom.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
So the judge obviously agreed and allowed it into trial?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
Did you have any doubt that the DNA found under John Yelnik's fingernails belonged to Kevin Foley?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
Well, something we see a lot in these stories is where the we'll just use mom as an example. The mom tells the new boyfriend that, you know, her ex is a monster and he's doing these horrible things. And a lot of times the mother will get the new boyfriend, new husband riled up.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
Like he did these awful things. And that could be the case here. Doesn't excuse anything. Doesn't, you know, mean you could kill someone, but it certainly could get somebody fired up.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
About another person. But there were no charges brought against Michelle.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Premonition
yeah and i think that doesn't sit well with some people what happened when you know you and our team reached out to her she you know did not want to talk to us um but i think for john's friends they were upset you know they really felt like she got away scot-free that's their opinion i could see how they could still feel some frustration there yeah let's talk real quick about john um
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
Up next, we're taking your questions from social media. Let's jump into some of our social media comments. There were a lot, a lot of comments about how Jonathan and Sabrina were kind of misinterpreting words in the Bible, twisting words in the Bible, however you choose to characterize it, for their own benefit. So here's what Darlene said.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
I hate it when people try to use the Bible to justify their evil doings. Brandy Guthrie, I think this is the episode where he says, David didn't turn state's evidence on Bathsheba. which, yes, yes, it was. I love that line, and I remember rewinding it several times. That was a good one. That was a good one.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Also, lots of comments about the swinger lifestyle. Salome Paul says, what surprised me the most was the revelation that Jason and Kelly were also swingers. That was a huge part in the story and that they were together and all of this.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
Can I just say, I was really, as a mother of two children, I was just amazed that folks had the energy for this. I was just going to ask you this. I am exhausted at the end of the day.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
We can barely have a coherent conversation. We are exhausted. So the fact that parents have energy for anything else, much less this very involved lifestyle, is beyond me.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
But apparently not. We are confused, but OK. Diane Toth also kind of touched on a little bit about the two friends. Did I hear right? The two friends talking about Jason and Kelly who spoke about them are now divorced.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
You know, a lot of people had comments or questions about the sentencing and all of this. So Brianna Alba on Facebook wrote, is there any update on Sabrina in jail? How is she doing in jail? Has she spoken? Anything like that?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
I'm curious, if you pick this story up and plopped it in another city, like a larger city, Atlanta, New York, do you think that it would have had the same kind of ring? Do you think that this would have played out anywhere else but this community?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
And then this last one from Lisa Helfrich. I want to read this. I have to say, I think this is the most riveting episode of Dateline ever. Since it aired, I've spent a sad amount of time watching footage from the trial. And for the record, Josh Mankiewicz is my favorite Dateline host. I've already told my loved ones that if, God forbid, I am missing or murdered, I want Josh to cover it.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
It's kind of an honor in a way. We hope it never comes to pass. We don't ever want to cover you, Lisa, or anybody else.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
OK, well, this has been quite a discussion for quite an episode. Josh, always, always great to share a mic with you, my friend. Thank you so much for talking Dateline.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
And that's it for Talking Dateline this week. To dive even deeper into this case, make sure to check out Josh's six episode podcast of the same name, Deadly Mirage. You can find it wherever you get your podcasts. Also, make sure to follow Dateline True Crime Weekly, where you can get daily coverage of the Sean Combs trial and our latest podcast series on trial.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
Remember, if you've got any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can always reach us 24-7 on social media at DatelineNBC. And if you have a question for Talking Dateline, you can record a message and send it to us on social media or call this phone number and leave a voicemail. That number is 212-413-5252.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
You never know who will answer it, and you'll have a chance to possibly hear your voice featured on an upcoming episode. And of course, we will see you Fridays on Dateline on NBC. Thanks as always for listening.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
It's kind of a thread through this entire episode, people going out of their way to almost kind of create this facade of this perfect kind of place.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
So I really like this question that you asked, Jason, if Rob might have gotten involved with the wrong person or perhaps involved in a bad situation. And he says, yes, you never really know anyone, even in a picture perfect place like Silver Lakes.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
In 2014, when Rob Limone was found dead at the rail yard where he worked, investigators wondered if it was a burglary gone wrong until they learned more about Rob's open marriage and close-knit group of friends who called themselves the Wolfpack.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
But there was even the notion of Sabrina talking about permission, right? Like what she had permission to do. It's almost like it's fine. It's right. It's sanctioned if it's within this group because we all share this belief. But if you go outside, then you're stepping over the line.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
And at least for a long time, that appeared to be working. What was it like in that interview room when you were interviewing Kelly and Jason, when you actually asked them, okay, break this down for me. I don't understand. Who was with who? How did this work? What was that like?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
One, that was a very poetic way of describing this entire kind of convoluted thing. But two, I'm curious, there are always like moments in our interviews that we do that can be uncomfortable or, ooh, you're really challenging someone or you're pushing somebody. Was this uncomfortable? How was that? in the room? How did they respond to your question?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
Hi everyone, it's Blayne Alexander and I am so glad to be here today with Josh Mankiewicz to talk about his episode, Deadly Mirage. If you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed. So make sure to go there, listen to it, or of course you can stream it on Peacock and then come right back here. So just a quick recap.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
Detectives eventually zeroed in on Rob's wife, Sabrina, and her lover, a young firefighter by the name of Jonathan Hearn, and arrested them for Rob's murder. Hearn quickly confessed and agreed to testify against Sabrina in exchange for a reduced prison sentence. Sabrina denied everything but was convicted in 2017. She is currently serving a prison sentence of 25 years to life.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
When we get back, we've got an extra clip from Jonathan's testimony at Sabrina's trial. So when I was watching this, my first question that I came back to, why did they have to kill the guy? Why murder, right? Why not divorce?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
One of the questions I had the day that Rob was murdered is a day where he's actually covering a shift for another employee. How would Jonathan know that he was picking up that shift? Did investigators think Sabrina might have told him or did he kind of get that hanging around the wolf bag?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
That's her argument. One of the questions that was posed during this episode was why would Jonathan throw away his entire life?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
Especially if you feel that it's all kind of, I guess, underwritten or supported by religion, right?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
That's what's so fascinating about this. There's kind of this notion of when you talk about the kind of push and pull between what prosecutors allege happened and then just the religion behind it. And at one point we heard her say Rob would rather be dead than divorced. I wonder if at some point there was kind of this decision that was essentially almost made for Rob, right?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
Later on, we'll play you an extra clip from Jonathan's testimony at Sabrina's trial. But for now, Josh, let's talk Dateline. There's so much to talk about in this episode. I actually want to start with the location, Silver Lakes. You know, they called it the happiest place in the high desert, but that was actually the very first character that we kind of met in this story, right?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
Like if the question is why not divorce, kind of saying, well, he would prefer it this way. I wonder if that was part of the mindset of like, hey, we're almost doing him a favor.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
You're not doing them a favor. I was even struck. One thing that almost gave me chills was when we listened to the wiretap and it sounded like they literally prayed for the wisdom to be able to cover up a murder.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
Several. You shall not kill. You shall not lie. Like, there were a lot of commandments.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
It didn't happen. It didn't happen in the scripture. No. Didn't happen that way. No. You know, I wonder if Jonathan's motivation for all of that, right, afterwards was, let me confess to Kelly and Jason. That will be kind of my way of following through with the scripture, confessing, that's a police. Who could put me in prison? But let me confess to these friends and that'll...
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
No, I have to say for all the love talks, all the hours and hours of phone conversation, all the praying together, it didn't seem to take long for him to go ahead and flip on her. No. So Jonathan pleads guilty to manslaughter and agrees to testify against Sabrina during her trial. And when he does, the prosecutor projects a selfie of Jonathan that was taken in December of 2013.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
And in the selfie, you see him. He's crying in a picture and holding up a letter. I want to play a little bit of a clip from that prosecutor asking Jonathan about that letter.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
Before we knew anybody's names, we knew the name of this location. Had you ever been to Silver Lakes before this report?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
So the prosecution went on to ask Jonathan about some of his writing from a few months later, and the tone has shifted quite a bit. Let's listen to that.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
Dismissive of his life. That's one way to minimize that. what he ultimately would ultimately happen. But yes.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Mirage
But this whole notion of selective morality throughout, like, aha, that is wrong, and therefore that justifies murder. Or this is wrong, but I'm actually doing the same thing, but this is wrong over here. That really was kind of the theme throughout this entire thing.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Well, no, watching you, I could tell just where your heart was in this story. And I think that you just did a really beautiful job with it.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Everyone says it and I completely believe it. So thank you for that. And thank you for, thank you for this. This episode was just, it was moving in so many ways, truly. Okay. And after the break, we will be back to answer viewer and listener questions from social media. We've got some social media questions. There were a lot of reactions to this. So I'll just read through a few.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Ronnie Brock says, how could the police wait five years to follow up on a man who tells them he was there? Police could have gone to his home and found the jacket and pants he was wearing that day. That's, I mean, it's something we talked about.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Okay. Jerry Lynn wrote on Facebook, how high off the ground was that bridge? 63 feet. 63 feet. Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
I am sure. Yeah. I have to say, I have, I actually have a fear of heights. It comes and goes, but it would definitely would have, I couldn't have done it. You wouldn't like it. No, you would not like this.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
We would have had to come up with a different way to shoot that if I could not have been up there. So my hat's off to you because that was amazing. Okay. Daniel Welcher on Facebook says, did Richard Allen have any criminal record before this? No. None.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And then we have an audio question from Gracie Donaldson Cipriano. Let's listen.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
I remember that line. And I thought the exact same thing. I mean, was it as high as it seemed?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Just bizarre. It's so strange too, because you're absolutely right. You want that resolution at the end, but no, it's in the truest sense, a senseless crime. Well, Andrea, we have talked a lot of Dateline today. Thank you so much. This was just a fascinating conversation as always. Thank you. And that's it for Talking Dateline this week.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can always reach us 24-7 on social media at DatelineNBC. And exciting news, you can now submit your questions over the phone. Just call 212-413-5252. And leave a message with your question about Dateline and our episodes for a chance to be featured on Talking Dateline.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And also remember to check out Keith's brand new podcast, Murder in the Moonlight. It's about a double murder in the Great Plains and an investigation that came down to one single shiny clue. And as of today, Dateline premium subscribers can binge the entire series, and episodes one through four are available for everyone else.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And of course, we'll see you this Friday on Dateline on NBC for my very first show as a full-time Dateline correspondent. Thanks so much for listening.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
There was a lot that was really memorable about this episode, but I have to say that almost as soon as you introduced Libby's grandparents, Mike and Becky, my heart just went out to them because I can't imagine just this feeling of like, hey, they were just having a sleepover at the house. Yeah. And then the next day they're gone.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Talk to me about what it was like just having that conversation with them.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
To recap, in 2017, two schoolgirls, Libby German and Abby Williams, were found murdered in the woods of Delphi, Indiana, near an abandoned railway bridge. For years, the case went unsolved and police were at a standstill except for one clue— A grainy picture and a gravelly voice captured on Libby's phone right before the murders.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Of course, of course. Oh gosh, that's just so, so heartbreaking. I'm curious, did you or did anybody from our Dateline team, did anyone speak to Abby's family?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
what they went through. Absolutely. Absolutely understandable. You know, let's talk about this investigation. I think, Andrea, for stories like this that so many of us follow kind of almost in real time, I'm almost even more fascinated to watch the Dateline episode because I think that I know a lot about a case and then the episode brings forth some more that I didn't know.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And the thing that I think all of us remember is that eerie recording from Libby's phone. They have this image now of the murderer, his voice, and really the girls helped bring down their own killer.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Hi, everyone. I'm Blayne Alexander, and today we are talking Dateline. I'm joined today by Andrea Canning to discuss her latest episode, A Walk Through the Woods. If you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed. So go there and listen to it or stream it on Peacock and then come back here.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
I'm curious, you know, one of the things that we heard was that recording and the words down the hill, right? And correct me if I'm wrong, but that was the only portion that was released. I didn't realize that they actually had, what, 43 seconds, you said, of audio?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Well, I have another question about that. I wonder, did the video lead investigators astray at all? I mean, it led to people kind of pointing fingers at friends, acquaintances online, just anyone that they could think about that even slightly resembled Bridge Guy.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
It would turn out to be a very big clue that helped solve the girls' murders. For this episode, Andrea is going to share a podcast-exclusive clip from her interview with the case's prosecutor, Nick McCleland. Then we'll answer viewer and listener questions from social media. All right, let's talk Dateline. Hey, Blaine. Hi, Andrea. How are you? I'm good. Thank you. This was a tough one for me.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
That is unbelievable. Before we go further into Richard Allen, something that was really interesting about this episode to me, there were obviously alternate suspects. Let's talk about Anthony Schatz or Kagan Klein. That was a journey. That was interesting.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Yes, absolutely. It was. First, I want to say I loved that we had these interviews that like Court TV reporter had done, like WTHR. Yeah. I mean, to have that interview with the guy whose real picture it was while he was working out on a workout machine.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Can I just say I appreciate the multitasking. Okay. He said, no excuses. We're getting it in today. I know.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
I just want to go on the record and say, next time we do a talking date line, perhaps we could do it from the Peloton.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
No excuses to not work out here. But that whole- whole episode with Anthony Schatz, Kagan Klein. I mean, that really was, yes, talk about a red herring. But I'm sure that when detectives kind of found those conversations with Libby, they were like, okay, this is it. Case closed. We got a guy.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And it just didn't happen. I would imagine this had a tremendous impact on this community.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And you know, everybody, that's the creepy thing. You feel like you know everybody. So now you're looking and it's like, okay, these people that I know is one of you guys, like, are we in the same restaurant with the person who did this?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
They would have just like... Yelled at you and probably kept going.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
OK, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, Andrea is going to share a podcast exclusive clip from her interview with the prosecutor in this case, Nick McCleland. Let's talk about the trial.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
I can only imagine. I want to dive into that because this was one of those stories that... You know, a lot of our Dateline cases for viewers and even for us, they're brand new, right? You haven't heard about them before we bring them the episodes. This was something that we all kind of watched play out from beginning to end, right? Like I remember having friends cover this. I remember watching it.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And before we can talk about the trial, of course, we have to talk about the pretrial hearing and kind of the judge ruling that the defense could not introduce this alternate theory that the murders were tied to Odinism. First, talk about what that was. And that was a tremendous blow to the defense.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Sure. So who knows? And so having that not be allowed in, I mean, that kind of upends their defense in a way, right? Like they have to go on trial in a very... In a different posture.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
That's really interesting. Something that stood out to me was, I believe it was his defense attorney who was basically saying, hey, when you talk about matching the physical description. He's wearing what? Jeans and a Carhartt jacket. Like everybody's wearing jeans and Carhartt jacket. Yeah, Carhartt hoodie.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And when the cell phone video was released, all of that, there's a lot to dive into. I want to start with just where this actually occurred, that bridge. It was already an eerie kind of setting for a crime like this, right? Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
So I wonder about those just kind of differences or the kind of the pushback of like, does he exactly match the description of this guy?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Yeah. Nick McCleland, the prosecutor, talking about what it was like waiting for the jury to come back with a verdict.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Do you find that there is still, even though he's been convicted, is there still some doubt about this in the town? Like, where do people land on where the verdict?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
Before we wrap up this portion of our conversation, Andrea, I want to circle back to something that you said at the beginning of just how difficult this case was, the story was for you to cover personally. And I mean, I wanted to ask you about that. I know that you are a mom, you are a girl mom.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods
And you even mentioned that for a bit in the episode of just the similarity in ages with two of your girls. How did you kind of make your way through this story?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
That's exactly it. That's what he was trying to do. The story that the defense wove was that There was an argument that was sparked because Jazzy heard the phone ding and it was Tinder, basically him talking to other women, according to the defense, that she got upset that, you know, they fought.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
There was broken glass and he she came at him with broken glass and that he had no choice but to defend himself.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
It's not. And I think the prosecution kind of had this burden of saying, here's what this is. It doesn't necessarily mean that you sat and thought for weeks and planned this out and wrote out every detail. But it more so means that in some way you had foresight, right, that you thought about this and before committing this crime.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
And so that was the argument that they were that they were trying to make.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
Especially, Dennis, when you're kind of confronted with legal terms, right? Like premeditation and things like that, that you have to sort through. I thought that that was a fascinating way to look at it of, yes, everyone has been in a car where you get to a yellow light and it's like, do I gun it and keep going? Do I slam on the brakes? Yes. What do I do?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
And so that's really kind of a way to think about it there. And again, I think the sheer number of wounds really also kind of helped nudge it into the premeditation column because, yes, you can get to 25 stabs. Let me stop. You know what I mean? There are many chances to kind of to make a different decision.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
Less than an hour. Wow. 40-something minutes. I mean, really very quickly. It was a very quick conviction there.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
None. He was... Everybody that I've spoken to says that he was very kind of stone-faced. He would look down, according to the prosecution. It looked like he was looking down, but there was a monitor that showed some of the evidence. So he was looking at that. The only reaction, from my understanding of talking to people who were there, that he showed was...
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
When his family or his mother was mentioned, his mother took the stand during the sentencing phase and basically kind of pleaded for leniency for her son. That didn't happen. But he did show some reaction when she spoke. And then also when cousin Jackie said, another victim here is your mom, Emily. Jackie's... victim impact statement was very moving.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
It was unthinkable, Dennis. I mean, I think that, yes, Granny had cancer. She was in remission. They thought she was fine. And then basically that morning, I mean, it went from, hey, I'm not really feeling that well. Let me go to the hospital to, boom, she's gone. I mean, it's jarring. It's kind of whiplash for anybody. And then, yes, that was the last time that their family saw Jazzy.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
She took a glass jar and we kind of showed it in the episode, but you don't get the full effect. She took a glass jar and she took 60 stones and one by one put them in the jar. And that represented each one of the stab wounds that Jazzy had just to show the sheer amount of times that he stabbed her, right? And then she began her statement.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
So to do that silently and then kind of begin her statement was really powerful.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
Yes. I don't think that there's a parent in the world that would disagree with that. That, you know, hey, my child is missing. What do I need to do? Doesn't matter what I'm doing. I'm going to do it to find them. Absolutely.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
That she missed it. Right. And you have to think even as a parent going through something like this or anyone loses a loved one, you think a billion what ifs. But when you have something that that is that strong of a what if of a possibility, that has to be just devastating for her. Truly.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
That's exactly what Cousin Jackie said to me. If it was startling enough to you to make you write down the time but not call for help, you wonder where that decision was made, why that decision was made. We didn't, you know, weren't able to speak to them. But that is certainly a good question that the family has and that I had it as well.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
That is the biggest piece of all of this, Dennis. I mean... There wasn't one. I think that when we do stories and it's like, oh, husband catches wife cheating on him and he goes crazy and kills her. Oh, someone wanted insurance money. And so they do it for that or whatever it may be. At least you can kind of wrap your head around this.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
I mean, for all intents and purposes, the prosecution said the same thing. It seemed that he just wanted to. kill her.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
It's a terrifying answer because there's not a, you think about people that you meet just in general, right? You meet tons of new people every day and you don't know what's going on in their mind. You don't know what's going on behind their kind of normal facade of being a student and a comp sci major, whatever it may be. And this is one of those terrifying examples.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
You know, they kind of talk about the fact that They're grateful that they were able to gather for Granny because all of the family got to see Jazzy and then she was gone. But later, Jackie told me, you know, when we were talking, she said later they realized we never got a chance to mourn Granny because immediately they were into finding and then mourning Jazzy.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
Yes. It seemed like he was, according to detectives, it seemed like he was trying to work out his alibi. And so would write, okay, last talked to her this day, or just different things, or if police come, what to say to parents, or those types of things that he was kind of jotting down notes of how to keep an alibi straight.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
That's really interesting when we have viewers who are very familiar with either the story, the crime itself, or certainly the place where it happened, right? Because for most of our viewers, it's someplace that, you know, maybe they know they've traveled to. But yes, when it's your city, when it's your street, you can kind of see these things on local news, perhaps.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
I know that this was a case that was covered locally, but I know that in the way that we do this, trying to really humanize the victim and tell more about the person who was taken away, I think sets our stories apart. So hopefully, even if he had seen kind of like different coverage, hopefully he learned more about who Jasmine Pace was through our story.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
Thank you so much, Dennis. It was truly an honor to get to know her and know her through her family and friends and learn more about her.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
I think so. And I'm glad you felt that, too, Dennis, because I think that that's that was one of the things that really stood out about this. There were tons of videos about her. Right. I mean, it's 2022. Like, you know, she's young. She's very online, if you will.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
Dennis, I'm so good. I'm so glad to join you, my friend.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
And so finding videos and pictures wasn't it wasn't a hard thing to come by. She was vivacious. She was excited about life. I mean, she was kind of in this place where, hey, I'm going to school. I'm getting, you know, my eyes into what I really want to do with my life. She loved people. She loved her family.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
And I think that's something that stood out, too, because you can think about going off to college. You get kind of absorbed in your friends and your life. And maybe I'll talk to my mom every three days or whatever. No, she was very, very close to her family. So that's why they knew immediately when she wasn't answering and things like that, that wasn't like her.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
Different times. And so, for instance, this happened the Tuesday before Thanksgiving. They were all expecting to see her on Thanksgiving and she didn't come. So they get some messages from her phone saying, hey, I'm going to go with my friend Emma, you know, out of town with her family. So that's not like Jazzy.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
Exactly. Exactly. But also it was after they realized, OK, no one's talked to her. She's only been texting us. And so that's when I mean, to this family's immense credit, that's when their antenna started going up and they said, OK, let's look at her phone records. Let's call Emma. Let's see what's going on.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
And the more and more they started to dig, that's when they realized, no, something's something's wrong. And, you know, I think that this is one thing that the family told us and will tell us. They didn't believe that they were getting the help from police that they would have liked to have in those early hours, those early days.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
You know, we asked the detective about that. We asked him about that when we had him in the chair. And basically, he said that they did as they should. He didn't say that they did anything wrong with their response, that they were responsive. But of course, when it's your loved one that's missing, you want heaven and earth to be moved to find them.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
You know, I and I should say Jackie was kind of the spokesperson. Jackie, Gabby, they spoke. Katrina didn't want to speak with us for this episode, completely understandably. But my hat's off to her and my heart went out to her because when I saw her in that parking lot and everything that she was just kind of spinning through her mind and let's do this, let's do this. What can we do?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
I said, that's a mom, right? Like I immediately identified with her because you're thinking through everything. everything, but especially when you think your child is in danger. She said, okay, we can't do this. Can we get security video? Can we go to these gas stations and ask these people?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
Can we, I mean, they were asking the security at the apartment, like the way that her mind was thinking under duress, under stress of what can I do next was impressive.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
That's exactly it. The first thing that really impressed me was when they had this phone number. Right. And they said, OK, who could it be? And Jackie immediately said, well, I'm going to type it into my cash app. Right. Everyone who uses cash.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
So Cash App, if I were to send you $50 because you're amazing. Thank you very much. You absolutely are. You deserve more than 50, by the way. But I would send you $50 and I'd send it via Cash App, right? I'd say, what's your Cash App? You would probably give me your phone number and I'd put it in and then Dennis Murphy would pop up if you're registered with Cash App.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
So I could take theoretically any phone number. And most people, I think it's safe to say, are on Cash App at this point. So you can type in their phone number and up pops their Cash App ID. So that's kind of a very quick way to identify someone. I mean, in the old days, you would have to like look through a phone book, I guess. I don't know. Google a phone number, maybe.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
carrier pigeon up to the heavens to figure out where it is. But I think that this, you know, Cash app and also Zelle, you could type it into Zelle. That's, you know, tied to a phone number.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
So once you put it in, the name Jason Chen popped up. And that was enough to give them really a thread to start pulling on. And that's kind of what came down to it. So Jazzy had been hanging out with him, you know, kind of on and off dating loosely, if you will. They took a trip to Chicago, but her mom knew the name. And so her mom immediately said, yep, I know who that is.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
They went looking for the vehicle and they found it. You know, there's one piece that didn't make it into the story, Dennis, that I thought was interesting.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
When I was talking to Gabby, Jazzy's half-sister, who was there for the parking lot and going into the apartment and all of that, she told me that when they found the SUV, she looked in the window and she said she noticed that the seat was pushed all the way back. So that indicates that a tall person was driving it. And she said, Jazzy's short. Jazzy's tiny.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
There's no reason that the seat would need to be pushed all the way back. So she said that was her first indication of, OK, my sister wasn't driving this.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
Very. Absolutely. And so I think that all of them had their different moments where they realized something's wrong, something's off. That was Gabby's moment for sure. But then when Katrina, Jazzy's mom, found that pin that she had sent her, I can't imagine anything more heartbreaking than to discover that several days after.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
It was at 2.18 in the morning on the Wednesday, early Wednesday morning. So the last time her family saw her was that Tuesday night at the hospital. And what prosecutors pieced together is that after that, she had her long phone call with Jason Chen, eventually goes over to his apartment. And then in the overnight hours, like around the 2 a.m.-ish hour, that's when she sent that pin.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
And that was also within three minutes of when Jason Chin's neighbors told the family that they heard a scream come from the apartment. And so you know that something happened in that time frame that Jazzy realized, one, she's in trouble. I need to call for help. She obviously couldn't do much, but the best she could do was send a pen.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
And it's something you can do on an Apple Watch, too, even if you don't have your phone beside you. So somehow she was able to send off a pen instantly. I want to say something about the pen, too, because I think some viewers may wonder, like, how did you not see that? How did you not see this text from your daughter?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
One, it came in the wee morning hours. But two, remember, this happened after Granny died, the person who raised her. So Katrina was getting this kind of deluge of all of these sympathetic texts. Oh, my God, I'm so sorry. You know, what can I do for you? All these texts are coming through. And so Jazzy's text got lost immediately. in there. That's kind of how Jackie explained it to me.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
Terrible for Katrina to realize later that she missed it. But that's kind of what happened there. So the pen, she sees the pen. They're like, oh, my gosh, let's follow this pen. It takes them to the apartments and specifically in front of apartment 210.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
So now the family is armed with this pin that takes them right to the front of the door of 210 and the neighbors that say they heard something. So who lives in 210, Blaine? Jason Chen. That's what they find out. Jason Chen lives inside that apartment.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
And I have to say, Dennis, if I ever needed to get into an apartment or a locked door, I wouldn't know what to do. Would you naturally know to just get a credit card and pop the lock?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
Yeah. I mean, even if I'd seen it on like a TV show, I wouldn't have known how to take the credit card and actually jimmy the lock open. What did they find inside? The first thing that the family saw was Jazzy's overnight bag. And so that was to them saying, okay, she's been here. I know my daughter's bag. That's her bag. That was number one. They found her driver's license.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
They found several credit cards. And then they said they found a series of other cell phones, just a bunch of cell phones. All of that made them say there's something going on here. And they called police. You know, the police take that. They obviously turn it over to the detectives, but they also say to the family, Jazzy, Don't do this again. You can't go inside this apartment.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
Don't go back inside. Now, once police got involved and they ended up going into the apartment, that's where they really did the real police work. Right. I mean, they obviously were going around seeing I talked to the detective and he saw that heel print where it looked like someone was wearing socks, stepped in blood and then left kind of like a transfer from the sock print just a little bit.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
But it was enough for him to say, OK, we need to get crime scene in here.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
They did. That's when they bring in the crime scene investigators to come in and they spray. They basically have a chemical that reacts when there's the presence of blood. And so they sprayed it on the floor just to see, is there any more blood? And that's when they said about a third of the floor was. Which is stunning.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
Jackie was incredible. Jackie is somebody that, I mean, she really was kind of like the heart and soul of our story. She spent a lot of time just kind of talking to us about Jazzy. The two were very close. I mean, they were very, very close. And from the very beginning, you kind of noticed that, you know, when they were together, when they were morning granny,
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
There was blood in almost every corner of the apartment, as the detective said to me. He said that there was blood on the bathroom floors, blood on the main area floors, but also there was blood splatter kind of on the wall. So he said that indicates obviously something very violent, right?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
This is a homicide. They said that when they saw that, they said that whatever happened, there's no way that whoever was the victim could have survived that because of just how much blood there was. And so, yes, it's a very unusual place for detectives to be in. There was no body. There was no suspect there. No one had confessed.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
But they knew just from the sheer amount of blood that had been lost that they were dealing with a death, a homicide.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
So Jason Chen is son of Chinese immigrants. He was somebody who was at University of Tennessee, Chattanooga, student there, been there for a couple of years. And he was a comp sci major, computer science. And so this is somebody who obviously knows their way around phones, technology.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
They knock and it's, you know, it's just outside of Nashville. Parents come down first, according to the detective. And essentially, you know, they kind of talk to him and finally Jason comes down and, you know, says, hey, here I am. And the other thing is they took him back.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
They had some warrants to, you know, get like DNA, just different things that they could get from him and then ultimately issued the arrest warrants. At that point, is he giving anything up? No. Police never did an interview with him. Because he didn't, you know, he refused to talk and refused to give any sort of information.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
The phone told the story. And I think that it's, again, without these kind of digital pieces, he very likely wouldn't have been arrested.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
Well, Well, it was kind of a double-edged sword because that's the first thing that Jason Chen's attorney went after. He doesn't believe that should be admitted. From the prosecution side, you know, I asked District Attorney General Cody Womp. She said, listen, there is no question that that was crucial, what the family found.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
They were the two that said, no, we got to make sure our moms are OK. We've got to do this. So they were kind of, you know, you have that person in the family that you're like, OK, we're going to take care of things. That was Jackie and Jazzy. That's kind of the feel I got from them.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
But on the other side of that, yes, that did kind of make things more difficult. I don't know, vulnerable if it wasn't admitted. So there were a lot of hearings back and forth on that. Ultimately, the judge did decide to admit it. And the prosecution was off to the races after that.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Pin at Apartment 210
He gave it up. What did he say? He is guilty, but he's not guilty of specifically what you're saying. And so I think the question was never did Jason Chin end the life of Jasmine Pace, right? The defense attorney said that from jump. More so, what were the circumstances that led to that? Was it premeditated as the prosecution was arguing?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
Hi, everyone. I'm Blayne Alexander, and today we are talking Dateline. I'm here with the one, the only Josh Mankiewicz. Hi, Josh. Hello. Okay, so today's episode is called 11 Minutes. It's the story of 17-year-old Madison Holton, who was charged with the September 2016 murder of his parents, Michael and Jennifer Holton. after a family dispute turned deadly in their small town of eclectic Alabama.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
You know, you ended with Madison talking about the fact that he visits his mother's grave, but he doesn't visit his dad's grave, even though they're separated by steps. It has to be just a very big internal struggle for him.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
Well, like I said, my friend, you packed a whole lot into this hour. There were a lot of twists and turns and it was a very compelling story. So thanks so much as always for talking Dateline with me.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
And that's it for our Talking Dateline this week. Thanks, of course, to all of you for listening so faithfully every week. Remember, if you have any questions about our stories or a case that you think we should be covering, you can reach out to us at any time on social media at DatelineNBC.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
And if you've got a question for Talking Dateline and you want to hear your voice right here on this very podcast, you can leave us a voicemail at 212-413-5252. And Keith will call you back personally if that happens. Well, see, I heard that that rang directly to your landline, Josh.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
Yeah. Let's talk about this family. We start the story getting to know Madison, learning about this family dynamic. They're dealing with a teenage son who they're trying to figure out how to get a hold on him. And at the same time, the parents are going through a divorce themselves. I can't imagine that. that kind of turmoil in one house at the same time.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
So call that line or record yourself and send it to us via DM on social media. Thanks so much for listening. And of course, we will see you Fridays on Dateline on NBC. And just one more thing before we go. Remember to check out Andrea's daily coverage of the federal sex trafficking trial of Sean Combs.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
She's getting updates from NBC News correspondent Chloe Malas every day after court, and those conversations are dropped in the Dateline True Crime Weekly feed. You can listen to that wherever you get your podcasts.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
So he has a house party, but his parents really just don't know what to do. And they said, this is almost kind of like a parental scared straight. We're going to put some handcuffs on him. Some could say, hey, is this extreme? Or other people saying, hey, we just, parents need to do something to get their son under control.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
I thought it was notable that the dad just apparently had handcuffs there ready to be put on. Right. He was a former fire chief, former mayor. There's some embarrassment issues that you kind of pointed to.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
Madison insisted he was innocent, joining forces with his uncles and a retired FBI investigator who stepped in to fight for him. They raised serious doubts about the case against him and pointed to a different explanation, that Madison's father may have murdered his mother in a murder-suicide.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
I was struck by the fact that, you know, Madison's dad got a call from somebody, from a friend, somebody who knew and said, hey, my kid came home from your house under the influence of something. You need to figure out what's going on, basically. Right. I had that happened in Atlanta or in L.A. It may not have been like I know exactly the kid and the parent and who to call.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
I would think that that's a nod to just how difficult this story was, that they don't want to talk about it. They don't want it to be put on a national platform, I assume.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
Yeah, interesting. I thought the interviews that you did do were very compelling. I mean, obviously you sat down with Madison himself. I'm curious, what was your impression of him?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
When we come back, we will hear an extra clip from Josh's interview with one of the men who set out to free Madison, his uncle, Chris Owenby. Madison's uncles, Chris and Mike, absolutely believed him, and they stepped up immediately to help him. The family rallied behind him. I'm curious what stood out to you in your conversations with them.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
Now, remember, if you haven't listened to or watched the full episode yet, it's right below this one on your podcast list. So go listen to it or stream it now on Peacock and then come back here. And when we come back, we'll have two extra clips from the story, including one from Madison Holton, the person at the center of it all. So stick around. All right, Josh, let's talk Dateline.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
When you were talking to Madison, he said at one point, I don't remember which uncle, Chris or Mike, but he said he'd only had maybe a five-minute conversation with him ever before in life.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
We actually have an extra clip from your interview with Chris Owenby that didn't make it into the show. Here in this clip, he's describing what it was like to tell the kids that their father had been killed and their mother was fighting for her life.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
She was gone. Wow. To hear him describe having to tell the children that, no matter how you say it, it's not going to soften the blow at all.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
Yeah, yeah. Let's talk about Greg Biggs. He's a former FBI agent.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
Yes. When he said this, he said, you know, kids do foolish things all the time. I'm like, yeah, I'm with you. Kids do do silly things. Like, of course we all do. He's like, yeah, let me tell you my story. I kissed a dead dog. I was like, wait, wait, I can't go with you there.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
He certainly illustrated to us that there is a very wide spectrum of kids do foolish things when they're young.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
You squeezed a whole lot into an hour here, my friend. There was a lot in the story.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
Within that realm, within that safe realm of, okay, this is cute and it makes sense.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
Well, insofar as the case is involved... He was an interesting character in that too, right? Madison kind of said, this guy was my guardian angel. They met essentially by chance.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
You know, what does that say about the initial investigation? That somebody from the outside, a former FBI agent, could come through and say, no, this was wrong, this was wrong, this was wrong. Certainly, you kind of have to look at the initial investigation and say, okay. Maybe there are some questions.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
When we come back, we have an extra clip from Madison Holton himself. Let's talk about the march up to trial, the lead up to trial that never happens. You point this out, and I think that this was such a strong point to make in this story. But life sentence feels daunting. And then two life sentences feels, you know, also daunting.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
But when you're 17 years old, I can't imagine walking into trial, what you think will be a trial, with that on the table, possibly ahead of you.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
Well, as I was watching this and going along, I'm thinking, oh, there are so many ways this could go. Oh, yeah, he definitely did it. Wait, no, he didn't do it. Oh, wait, he's handcuffed. No, they have problems. I mean, all of these things just kind of keep coming to where you really don't know how it's going to shake out. And in the end, nobody saw it coming.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
Sure. You know, what happens next almost sounds like something out of a courtroom TV show, right? Everyone starts rushing around, there's a flurry of activity, and then suddenly the charges are dropped.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
They drop the charges. And that end, like you said, that's the ethically responsible thing to do. Oh, no question.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes
Of course, you talked to Madison. Sometimes we do these stories where someone is exonerated and you know they're not going to be tried again. They can move on with their life, not having to wonder or worry. That's not the case for Madison here. He could face charges again. Let's listen to the two of you talking about that.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
It was kind of... Just bringing it up, letting people notice what they noticed.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
For our viewers or our listeners who maybe are only listening and didn't actually see it, can you kind of describe what she did with her body in that moment?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
And I think that that, it just felt like such a turning point in there because it, at least from the prosecution, it kind of sounded like they said, okay, this is your one chance to show, hey, this is what he did. And, you know, she didn't necessarily seem to have a good reenactment of what she said happened. It seemed like a turning point in there, though.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
So the jury deliberates. One point they come back, they say, hey, we don't have a verdict. The judge says, OK, keep trying. And they ultimately find Ashley Benefield guilty of manslaughter, but not guilty of the higher charge of second degree murder. So Ashley Benefield will be sentenced next month. And that's something, of course, that a lot of us are going to be watching.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
And I know that you are going to be discussing it and giving updates as well.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
Oh, you know we'll be there. Okay, Andrea, thanks so much for talking Dateline with me today. Yeah, thanks, Blaine.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
And also, I think that to go from a dinner party where you're talking about whatever you're talking about to like, hey, come outside and look at my guns. I just wonder how you make that conversation leave.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
It's probably one of the most – if it did, it would be one of the most creative Hallmark movies or something like that. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Let's say that that was an interesting meeting. But to go from that to I do in 13 days is so interesting, right? So, like, the question is, was this infatuation? Was it just love? Or did Ashley have some sort of a hidden agenda in all of this? Well.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
One question I had when we heard about her dream to open this ballet studio, I wonder to your point about money, like how much did Doug have to do with giving her the money to open that studio or making it possible?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
For this Talking Dateline, we have an extra clip from Andrea's interview with Ashley Benefield's therapist, Dr. Barbara Russell. But just a quick recap. In 2020, former ballerina Ashley Benefield claimed that she acted in self-defense after fatally shooting her husband, Doug Benefield.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
You know, the other big thing, of course, she got pregnant and she became a mom. I'm assuming that she really wanted children because she was pregnant relatively soon after they got married. And that became kind of the just kind of like a central focus when you talk about, you know, this poor girl who was really caught in the middle of all of this.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
I was so fascinated by this because from the beginning, it wasn't this question of like, oh, who did it, right? Like we knew that she pulled the trigger, but why? Why did she do it?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
I could imagine that would be tricky. It really was a delicate kind of balance that they had to strike. They had to be delicate with it. I thought that it was so striking that Eva at the end, Doug's daughter from a previous marriage – It came out and kind of addressed, almost apologized to women who suffered from domestic violence or really brought that forward, too.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
When we get back, we've got a bonus clip from Andrea's interview with Ashley Benefield's therapist. So let's go to the crime scene because there was something that was very unusual about this. Very soon after Doug Benefield was shot, we saw all of these people kind of start showing up for Ashley. Lawyers, her therapist. How unusual is something like that?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
But when investigators took a closer look into the couple's whirlwind relationship, they learned of abuse allegations, a bitter custody dispute, even an accusation of a previous murder. To investigators, the tumultuous relationship mixed with the physical evidence pointed to one thing, and that's murder. OK, Andrea, let's talk Dateline. Let's do it. So the big question, who is Ashley Benefield?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
I'm really glad that we had the voice of Dr. Russell because I do think that she said so much about Ashley. I wonder if there were questions about, you know, to be there on the scene, to be so involved, was it possible that she was overstepping her bounds as a therapist to be there?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
In a couple of ways, she played the role kind of almost of an advocate of Ashley, right? Like they're on the crime scene and, you know, she joined the protests for her around the trial time too, right? Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
Let's talk a little bit more about those protests. Among the people protesting was their six year old daughter, Ashley and Doug's six year old daughter, Emerson. I mean, that was very striking to just see her little self out there. Who brought her out there and kind of what was that like for her to be out there?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
I mean, I think that's the question from all angles. So she's a former ballerina, a swimsuit model. She enters Doug Benefield's life and they get married within 13 days of first meeting. What makes someone get married after 13 days?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
Where is Emerson now? I mean, I think the sad thing about this, as you mentioned at the end of the episode, she's still kind of locked in this custody battle, right? Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
It's so often in so many of our Dateline stories, child custody disputes kind of can be at the heart of this. It really is just so heartbreaking for the kids who are in the middle of all of this. And Emerson has lost both of her parents.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
I talked with Keith about this recently for his episode, and it's almost like it's a method of self-protection or self-preservation.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
Almost like maybe you can't allow yourself to believe that your father is capable of this because even if they are, you know, found guilty or whatever, just having something in your mind to say, okay, I admit that maybe he is responsible, then you are really losing both parents, right? Like it's a way of holding on. Yeah, I totally buy that. Let's talk about Eva Benefield.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
Hi, everyone. I'm Blaine Alexander, and we are Talking Dateline. Today, I'm here with Andrea Canning. Hi, Andrea. Hey, Blaine. So this episode is called Deadly Dance. If you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed. So go there, listen to it, or stream it on Peacock, and then come right back here.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
That's, you know, Doug's daughter from his marriage to Renee, his previous wife who passed away. But when Doug and Ashley married, Eva was Ashley's stepdaughter, even though the two only had nine years of age difference, right, between the two of them. So how was their relationship?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
She was very vocal. She was claiming Ashley murdered her dad. And you even kind of said she used humor in all of that. But do you think that that kind of helped to draw a lot of attention to this story?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
I mean, I think that especially when you see people outside, but also just kind of thinking about, yes, social media and the way that some of these things spread, like people are able to follow along and feel like they really know the people or they really know the, you know, the facts of the case, or even people who show up and kind of try and be investigators on their own.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
Or, you know, involve themselves. Let's talk about the trial. Because as you mentioned, when the murder trial began, a lot of people dubbed it the Black Swan murder trial because of that movie. Have you seen the movie Black Swan?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
There was a lot. I didn't get into it. I really like Natalie Portman. I do, too. Because I liked her as Padme. She's great. So anytime Natalie Portman does anything, I'm like, oh, wow, let's see. And I do remember it was one of those ones I had to watch twice just to kind of digest what was happening.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Dance
So to have this trial likened to Black Swan was interesting. I'm curious, what was Ashley like in the courtroom during this trial?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
This was an interesting one. Blaine, thank you. Absolutely. So good to be with you, my friend.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
You know, we kind of commented at some point that viewers will need literally a notepad to write down all of the people and how they're related and arrows and kind of like a playbook, right? Because once we get into this and once we really start diving into this marriage and then there is another woman and then there's another man and how are all these people connected?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
It takes a lot to kind of pull together this very convoluted motive. But yes, from the very beginning, investigators looked at Scott and said, what in the world is up with this guy? I mean, this man was somebody who is military trained. He's a tall gentleman. He was carrying a firearm at the time. Not only is he proficient in firearm use, but he had a gun on him.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
And they're wondering why not go into the house. And, you know, when I spoke with Detective Johnson and a number of people were saying, listen, if I thought that there was something wrong with somebody that I cared about in the house, there's not a force on earth that would stop me from going inside.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
And yes, and military trained, right? So that screamed suspicion from the second they got to the crime scene. And then the suspicion only grew. There was the scene, and I think that this was something that really struck with a lot of people, but where he was talking to himself in the interview room and telling himself to stay calm and keep cool. You know, the red flags were just piling up, right?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
Yeah, it's interesting because nobody knows how you're going to act if you find yourself in a police interrogation room, right? Hopefully you or I never find ourselves in that situation. But if we did and we didn't do it, you would think that you wouldn't have to kind of whisper to yourself to stay calm and to keep it together.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
Yeah, it came up in several ways. And so he was deployed to Iraq. He spent time in Iraq, served in Iraq. And afterwards, one of Desiree's friends said, you know, this is somebody that she had known since middle school. And she said that he seemed to be acting different.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
But also when I asked one of the friends about perhaps, you know, he's seen a lot of things that you or I or most of us have never seen on the battlefield before. Was his response just kind of a downplayed response when he found out that his wife was killed? Because he had seen so many things. Was this a defense mechanism? Was this somebody who was just naturally stoic?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
And she said that she believed that, yeah, that's kind of who he was to a degree.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
Yeah, we spoke to three friends who have known Desiree through almost her entire lifespan, going back from middle school through high school to early marriage to, I mean, the day she was killed, right? Some think that, yes, there was a conspiracy to get her out of the way. Others are just like, you brought this woman and who brought this man into Desiree's life and all of it ended with her dead.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
So you bear some responsibility as well. But again, never charged.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
When I asked the investigator about that moment, of course, that was a big turning point for them, right? Because it was okay, you're out with family, you're staying with family. Wait, now we have a new name. Okay, and wait, it's a woman's name. Okay, and wait, you stayed at her house, right? So suddenly this kind of kicks things into a whole different level.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
And as you know, investigators then have to spin off on Let's dig deeper into this marriage.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
And one of the big pieces in this whole thing, Josh, is what exactly... was this relationship, right? Scott and Paige made it seem as though everybody's happy. This is kind of a cozy little throuple, if you will. But then when you look at those text messages, it was very clear. Desiree at some point grew tired of Paige being in their relationship.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
She was very concerned about her marriage to Scott. When I spoke with her friend, Michelle, you know, they would go on walks around the school. And that was something that came up often in their walks, just concerns about the health of her relationship and not being able to talk to her husband about it. And I should mention, too, we reached out to Scott.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
We tried a number of ways to get him to talk with us. He would not. He's remarried now and didn't want to talk to us for this episode.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
Well, And this is this is an important nuance. And so Scott was in basic training when Desiree had her infidelity. It was before he was deployed to Iraq. It was also before they were married. And so I put that in there because it's, you know, not apples to apples. Nobody should cheat on anybody.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
She ultimately was. You know, the text messages, I have to say what Paige said, one, she said that she didn't remember it clearly, but she said what she believes was that they were talking about life insurance or arrangements or something like that. And then I pushed her on that. I said, you know, we have all of the 40 pages of text messages or something.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
The context before, the context after has nothing to do with life insurance or anything like that. It kind of goes on to talk about Desiree saying she would be upset if there were anything sexual that were to happen between her husband and Paige, or if they were together. In talking to Paige, Paige says that it was actually Desiree who invited her to live with them.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
I think that diving into those text messages, there was a portion in there where, though they never explicitly said it, certainly kind of alludes to the fact that there was a... more than platonic interaction between Paige and Desiree at some point. But it's also very clear that this wasn't an ongoing, long-lasting relationship between the two of them.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
Good point. One, not everybody is as savvy as you are, Josh Mankiewicz. Not many people might have thought to go in and say, hey, I need an attorney.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
That is very true. But, you know, in talking with Paige about this and questioning her a number of different ways about this, she says and maintains and believes that she put her safety on the line to essentially help bring Desiree's killer to justice. That because she ratted on Marty, spoke about Marty, turned him in, that he has reason to be angry with her.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
He's going to be getting out of prison in a few years. And so, you know, she is concerned about that.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
Considering the fact that he will be out in several years, are you concerned personally about Marty getting out of prison?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
Even though he was doing so many things for you, even though he was a friend, he was helping you in so many ways, was your savior in many ways?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
Pitch, I asked her about this, right? I said, what would you describe him as? Friend? I mean, they were coworkers. They worked at the same place. Her mother had actually set her up on a blind date with Marty. Thought that this was a stable guy. He's making money. Might be a good guy for you. She said, okay. She was doing her daughterly duty, as she put it.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
went out on a date and then kind of thought, okay, great, it's over, bye. Marty didn't see it that way, according to Paige. And so that plus the fact that they worked together, she said she was trying to make things not awkward. And so when he would say hi, she'd kind of keep going and talking with him. But that kept growing.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
But what's interesting is Paige said that at some point she was in a very difficult situation that she was trying to leave, whether it was a relationship, I'm not sure, but just a difficult situation. And Marty was giving her the money to do that, right? Like helping her financially, helping her make a deposit on a new apartment, right?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
helping her with gas money, helping with groceries, with the car, things that she couldn't have done on her own. And she said, because she was so desperate at first, she was uncomfortable with it, but you know, always the arrangement was, Hey, I'll pay you back. She says she did pay him back for some of that. But again, it, All of it goes beyond the normal kind of scale of a friendship.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
And even though he was married, even though he got married.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
Well, she is. I mean, it's, you know, I wondered if there was any point at which she was disturbed with this relationship. And she said, I mean, he would say things like, you know, I would do anything for you or, you know, his undying love. He professed his undying love for her, those types of things. I said, how did that make you feel?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
Yeah, yeah, yeah. She said that to police. And so, you know, that brings forth just the questions of how did you feel in all of that? And she said, yes, it was awkward. It was weird. But at some time, I mean, at many times, he was literally the only person she had to turn to. You know, she was a single mom at this point. She says she didn't have many friends, any other friends.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
Yeah, I did, too. From the beginning, she was very concerned about Paige. And by concerned, I mean Marty made Paige the best man, quote unquote, in the wedding. Beth didn't like that.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
And Desiree did. And she was already kind of seeing, OK, there's this other woman. But amidst all of those things, never did Beth and in her telling to me, never did she think that police were going to show up on her doorstep and say, hey, we're arresting your husband for murder or questioning him, then arresting him for murder. Right. So that was something that completely caught her off guard.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Deadly Entanglement
Understandably, obviously, she's divorced him now. She's moved on. She's got a new boyfriend. But she said this was a very difficult thing for her to get through, to get over afterwards when she just kind of thought about her own judgment and all of this and how she was, like you said, unwittingly brought into all of this.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
Her reaction to the verdict, she was emotional.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
Yeah, yeah. Up next, we're taking your questions from social media. All right. We are back with the one and only Josh Mankiewicz to talk about our social questions, comments, thoughts from your episode.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
There were a few. So I think something that stood out to a lot of our viewers was the nickname Ravioli. That was Fabio's childhood nickname. We asked our viewers on Friday night what their nicknames were growing up. So Marie Wilson writes, Feetsie was her nickname because I kept growing so quickly out of my PJs.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
That can be confusing like at family gatherings if someone just yelled out Mank.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
I think mine... know Blaine it's not a it doesn't lend itself to you know what when I was running track and cross country in high school we put nicknames on the back of our shirts and mine was legs with two G's because I'm very tall and I'm all legs so that was you know that's good I take it. It was earned, right?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
It does. We have an audio question about the daughters from Lori Keeble Bailey. Let's listen.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
Well, we're going to our next question continues the trend of three named audio questions. This comes from Jessica McCourt Hughes, who has a question on how we report our cases.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
Here's an important question. One more audio question. Let's listen.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
Well, I love it. It's amazing to see. It's amazing to watch it. And, you know, at least from the podcast side, be part of it for today. So let's jump into this episode, Josh. I think the first thing that if you watch Dateline, you work on Dateline, you always know, okay, they're going to look at the partner first, right? This one, you had me fooled.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
If you had to give a number real quickly, how many pocket squares would you say you have? 250.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
We have a couple of questions about the sentences that everyone received. Cindy Wilson Shepard is asking, but what sentence did the two guys get for killing him?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
He's going away. Yeah. Okay. And then last question from K Star Maddox. What's Monica's sentence? Never heard what it was.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
Goodness. All right. A lot of great comments, a lot of great questions, a fantastic deviation on your pocket squares. This was a good one, Josh. Thank you. Thank you. And that's it for Talking Dateline this week. Remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can always reach us 24-7 on social media at DatelineNBC.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
And if you have a question for Talking Dateline, you can leave it for us on our social media or in a voicemail. That number is 212-413-5252 for a chance to be featured on a future episode. I'm told that that number rings directly to a traveling Blackberry that has passed around amongst correspondents. Maybe not. We will see you Fridays on Dateline on NBC.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
Also, make sure to check out Dateline True Crime Weekly. This week, I will be in. I'm hosting for Andrea Canning while she's out on vacation for the week. So we've got some updates on some big cases that we've been following. We also have a very fascinating interview about a new book on a rather high profile crime down in Houston. So all of that is coming up on Dateline True Crime Weekly.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
Make sure you listen to that Thursday morning wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks so much for listening.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
For a minute, because I'm listening to them talk about the marriage and the things she posted. And I'm like, no, this marriage is solid. So I was actually surprised when I heard about the affair. I actually did not see that coming.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
So, I mean, one of the big themes of this, of course, we hear about this a lot in Dateline, but betrayal. And I really think that that's a it seems like that was certainly a running theme of the story. But when you talk about the betrayal of even if Monica was saying, you know, oh, he worked a lot or he was never home, it didn't seem like Fabio knew that that was an issue with them.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
I want to talk about Fabio, though, because we really get a sense. And this is something we try and do in all of our Dateline episodes. But we really get a sense of who this guy was. I mean, he seemed like someone who loved his life. I was really struck by the fact that he had just sent this email about this epic 50th birthday trip that he was going to have. And then what was it the next day?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
So go there, listen to it or stream it on Peacock, of course, and then come right back here. Quick recap, when Hollywood hairstylist Fabio Cimentelli was stabbed in his own backyard, investigators wondered if it was a burglary gone wrong. What they uncovered instead was an affair that turned deadly.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
This seems like a good time to juxtapose Fabio with one Robert Baker, who was Monica's lover. I mean, you just ran down the man's CV in his life. And I mean, he really was just an impressive kind of larger than life figure. And then you have this man who is a former porn star. He's a convicted sex offender. He wears a pleather jacket that everybody liked to talk about.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
And one can't help but wonder like, How do you go from married to this guy to a very deep, steamy affair with that guy?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
And he even said on the stand, they said, you still love her, right? He said, yes. And they said, do you hope that you'll still be together? And he even admitted, no, that's never going to happen. That's never going to happen. Right. Like knew that it's not like they were going to go towards some sort of far off happy ending here.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
He's going away, regardless of what happens to her. I want to talk about the affair, but I also want to talk about how it came to light. The SIS, the Special Investigation Section. Did you know about this branch of LAPD?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
Hi, everyone. It's Blayne Alexander. And today we are talking Dateline. I am so happy to be joined by the one, the only Josh Mankiewicz. Hi, Josh. Hi. Hello. How you doing? I am great. So we're talking about your episode, The Widow of Woodland Hills. If you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
For this Talking Dateline, we've got an extra clip from Josh's interview with Fabio's sister and more about how the murder has torn this family apart. Okay, let's talk Dateline.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
I thought that it was one of the more interesting parts of the story, just kind of seeing how they do their job.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
Interesting. You know, another thing that we saw in this episode was a lot of just different audio, but the undercover audio when Monica was being held with the cellmate, quote unquote, who was actually an undercover officer.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
You know, I think that this story is kind of what Talking Dateline is made for, because as we sit here recording, it's 3.36 p.m. Eastern time on a Friday. We just got the verdict two out three hours ago.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
When we get back, Fabio and Monica's daughters chose to stand behind their mother even after she was accused of killing their father. We've got a clip of what Fabio's sister has to say about that decision. You know, we learned a lot about Fabio from his son, Luigi. And obviously that's his son from a previous marriage.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
I think that's important to point out because you kind of certainly see the different position that Luigi had versus, you know, their two daughters who shared with Monica. Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
I think it's also worth pointing out Fabio obviously chose divorce to kind of begin a new life with Monica. And some could say like she had the blueprint right there. Right. And in front of her, I thought that it was interesting to dive into why she didn't choose divorce. You and I have had this conversation plenty of times on Talking Dateline that, yeah, it may suck. You may be embarrassed.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
You may get shunned by your family, but someone doesn't have to die. You don't have to spend the rest of your life in prison. Right. Like, how does that become the top choice?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
I felt terribly for their two daughters in all of this. They stood by their mom, maintained that she was innocent of this whole thing. One testified for her. I know that you asked Fabio's sister, Mirella, what she thought about the kids supporting their mom. We have a clip of that.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
My heart just goes out to them, especially the daughter who found her father stabbed to death on the patio. And The jury has decided Monica was responsible. And, you know, and the prosecutor's telling she essentially orchestrated for her daughter to to find her father bleeding out and stabbed to death because she wanted an alibi.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
It's a terrible I mean, for a mother to do that to a child is something that's just fully beyond me.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
The level of manipulation, yes, is insane. Let's talk about Chris Austin. I can't remember being as glued to the screen for a portion of a dateline as I was when he was on the stand and describing what happened that day. I'm always stunned by just how almost easily someone can agree to be a henchman, if you will, or a sidekick in a murder, right?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
And I think it's a testament to just... The dexterity of our producing team, of everyone who puts these shows on the air, because I mean, yes, to scramble and get that together and fill the holes that need to be filled. Yeah, it takes a team. It takes an effort.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
He had no stake in this to do that and to be okay with playing a part in ending a life. It's just shocking to me.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Widow of Woodland Hills
The trial itself was full of a lot of kind of dramatic moments. This trial was long, two and a half months.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
Truly. For the many people who know the details of this case and who know these names of these beautiful young lives, it is in connection to these murders. And I think that that has to also present a specific and special kind of pain for their families, I would imagine.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
Up next, we're taking your questions from social media. We had a lot of social media comments on this episode, as you could well imagine. Let's hear from Gail Sorensen. She said, wow, we really got a lot more of the story that we didn't know about before. Keith, you're the best.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
We have an audio question. Let's take a listen to this one.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
There is an interesting question that I want to ask you. I'm sure you'd love to answer it. Does Keith write his own questions? Well,
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
That's exactly it. We have to be nimble. And I should say that question is from Jennifer Hart. But the interview goes where the interview goes. I bring all sorts of things out that were never written down just based on the answers that you get. And you have to you have to listen actively to primary best response.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
A lot of comments that we heard from our viewers about why it's taken so long for this to go to trial. The murders, of course, happened in November of 2022. Trial is set for August of 2025. Phoenix Lopez Harmon writes, what is taking so long? Is it because this is a death penalty case? And it's important to point out that these trials are not instantaneous.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
This has been a fascinating discussion, Keith, talking about this case, but also talking about how you were able to bring us the story. So thank you so much for talking with me today.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
I like it, too. I'm enjoying this, Keith. And that is it for Talking Dateline this week. Remember, if you've got any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can always reach us 24-7 on social media at DatelineNBC. And if you have a question for Talking Dateline, you can record a message and send it to us on social media or call this number and leave a voicemail.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
Here's that number, 212-413-5252. And you'll have a chance to possibly hear your voice featured on an upcoming episode. And of course, we will see you Fridays on Dateline on NBC. Thanks as always for listening.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
Sure. There are a lot of different sensitivities when it comes to reporting a story like this, when it comes to the story that you and your team aired, and even when it comes to our conversation here.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
There is nothing cagey about you, Keith Morrison. All good.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
Good to see you and hear you too, my friend. So before we jump in, if you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed. So make sure to go there, listen to it or stream it on Peacock and then come right back here.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
You know, let's let's dive in, because I think that another thing that was different about this story is sometimes when we present stories to our audience, this may be the first time that many people have heard about this case. Obviously not the case here. If anybody has followed and consumed any bit of news over the past two plus years.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
You know, at least in some part, have some degree of familiarity with this case out of Idaho. So when you do a story like this, when people really are hanging on every small detail of this, certainly when you're able to advance a story the way that you have, that's that's a remarkable thing.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
I mean, the big question in all of this and from the beginning has been, who is Brian Koberger? And in this episode, you described him as a man who lived in the shadows.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
Hi, everyone. It's Blayne Alexander and we are Talking Dateline. I'm joined by the one and only Keith Morrison to talk about his latest episode, The Terrible Night on King Road. Hi, Keith.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
You know, in talking about his chosen field of study, criminology, I have to say that when I was watching your story and when you reported about the Google searches that were found on his phone. Right. This, you know, some of the questions, can psychopaths behave pro-socially and sociopathic traits in college student? I have to say that when I saw that, I thought, OK, maybe it means again.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
Now, just to recap, in the early morning hours of November 13th, 2022, four University of Idaho students were found stabbed to death in their home. With the trial of Brian Koberger, the man accused of killing the students, now just 12 weeks away, Keith and his team revealed the results of their groundbreaking two-year investigation into this case.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
If he is, in fact, guilty of the crimes of which he's being accused, did he in some way know that maybe there was something off about him and perhaps he was engaged in that field of study to understand or lean into it?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
Speaking of explanations, someone could look at this and say, OK, maybe there wasn't an explanation for this or maybe there was. Ted Bundy was a name that came up a lot in this story. There were a lot of searches related to just for those who maybe need a refresher. Remind us who Ted Bundy was.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
Mm-hmm. You talked to people who had had what most of us would call just kind of chance run ins with Brian Koberger. I mean, at a pool party. I loved the Ph.D.J. That was my favorite title ever. I would like to go to a party that he's DJing. He seems like fun. Sure. You know, I was very interested, though, that they just kind of had these little snapshots of just little, you know, interactions.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
But even from then, it sounded like some of them said, hey, that even that just small interaction was kind of off. It's kind of strange.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
So let's let's talk about some of the evidence that you bring forward in this groundbreaking episode. I mean, of course, and we need to say that, yes, this is evidence he's been accused of these crimes. A judge has entered a not guilty plea on his behalf. But in this episode, you lay out some additional evidence that could point to his alleged involvement in these murders.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
Most people know how his DNA was found on the knife sheath at the crime scene. That's kind of a famous piece of evidence. But talk about some of the other pieces of evidence that came out here.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
The episode sheds incredible new light on the murders and just what happened that night on King Road. For this Talking Dateline, we want to tell you, of course, a little bit more about who those four students were that were murdered that night through the eyes of those who loved them best. Okay, let's talk Dateline, Keith.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
If I could jump in real quick. Talk about that white sedan. I mean, what was, when you talk about it in the episode, but what was with the back and forth and the back and forth? That was very chilling to me.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
One of the things that I thought was an effective piece of storytelling and reporting in this, Keith, was this animation that your team put together to kind of spell out how your investigative sources believe this crime took place. And I have to say, for a lot of our, you know, our audience who only kind of consumes these stories via podcast and doesn't actually look at the episode, go back.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
This is one that you need to go back, find on Peacock and actually look at this animation because it tells us a lot.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
One of the experts that you spoke with also talked about social media intel that that one would have gathered. Right. That, you know, the victims, young ladies posted a lot on social media. All of these strange things that one wouldn't necessarily think of could have been actual clues to help the killer understand the layout of this house.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
which is very chilling. When we get back, Kaylee was spontaneous. Maddie was an old soul. We're going to play some clips from interviews with family and friends of the four victims to get to know them a little bit better. That's when we get back. The texts between two of the surviving roommates show that they knew something was wrong. They were upset.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
They were trying to figure out what was happening. Yet it seems that it took a long time for 911 to be called.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
You know, before we jump into this discussion, I think it's important to note that this episode is so different from the episodes and stories that we typically do on Dateline. Right. Because by the time we get our hands on a story, usually the case is adjudicated. Somebody has either been found guilty or acquitted. And that is, of course, not the case here.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
If there's one thing that I've learned in my so far brief time with Dateline, it's that no matter in all of these stories, we never know what we are going to do or what anyone will do when confronted with a scene like this coming upon someone that they know or that they love that has been brutally killed. We don't know what you would do, what I would do, what any of our audience would do.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
And you can speculate all you want, of course, but you certainly don't know until you are faced with such an unimaginable moment. And so shock, who knows? It's easy to kind of look and say, oh, call 911, but you just don't know what one feels in that moment.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
Especially now. You've made it even more difficult. We spoke earlier about these four students, and I'm going to say their names because... We want to dedicate some time to hear from their family, their friends, those who knew them best about just who they were.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
So Maddie Mogan, Kaylee Gonsalves, Zaina Kurnodal, Ethan Chapin, you got a chance to speak with their friends, their family about who they were. Tell us a little bit about that.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
Well, let's listen to some of their family and friends. Let's listen to some of the people who knew them best.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: The Terrible Night on King Road
You know, when we do stories like this, I think that all of us can kind of identify with this being on the cusp of stepping into life, right? Yes. This kind of the excitement, the sense of excitement, being on the verge of realizing your potential.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
You kind of anticipate the arguments they're going to have. And so it really is just an interesting way of going into a conversation and, you know, thinking about all the different angles they're going to throw at you.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Absolutely. There are a lot of just kind of like still, I guess, hanging chads in this story. Right. You know, the sentencing phase. I do want to ask you, though, about the deliberation. Five days.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Yeah. Yeah. And there's nothing to change that. Josh, we are going to talk about questions from social media. A lot of people had thoughts about this episode. So we've got that coming up.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Okay, we're back. And Josh, we have a couple of audio questions this week. First up, let's hear from Amy Brownstein Berry on Facebook. Here's what she had to say.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Interesting. Do people keep them? I mean, obviously they're in your shirt, but do you keep them just in your pockets? Are they usually found loose in your pocket somewhere?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
OK, this is a fun question. Jabour Estefan on Facebook asked, has anyone ever said to Josh, bro, the defense attorney called you, bro. Have you ever been called bro in an interview before? I noted that one, too.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Okay, we've got another audio question. This one is from Amanda Lechman DePaulis on Facebook. Let's take a listen.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Well, lots of audio questions. I love the audio questions, by the way. This is a lot of fun to hear, to hear actually from people's voices.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Here's something that was funny, Josh, that people notice. And I have to admit that I noticed this one too. Fans notice just how tall Sergeant Dittmer is. When you guys were kind of walking side by side, I think down the street, Sylvia NYC wrote on X, I don't think I've ever seen anyone tower over Josh Mankiewicz on Dateline. So what was what was the deal there? How tall was this gentleman?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Josh, this was a fascinating episode. And it's always good to talk Dateline with you, my friend. Thank you.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
That's it for Talking Dateline for this week. Remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can always reach us 24-7 on social media at DatelineNBC. And if you'd like to hear your voice on an upcoming episode of Talking Dateline, please send your questions as an audio file. We cannot wait to hear from you.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
And Keith's got a brand new podcast, Murder in the Moonlight. When a couple is found shot to death in their quiet farmhouse on America's Great Plains, The investigation includes four suspects, spans three states, and comes down to a single shiny clue, a gold ring found at the scene of the crime.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Follow Murder in the Moonlight now and get two new episodes a week starting February 17th completely free. Or subscribe to Dateline Premium to start listening now. Premium subscribers get early access and ad-free listening. And as always, we will see you on Fridays on Dateline on NBC. Thanks for listening.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Well, let's talk about San Francisco. I mean, this really kind of provoked a very strong response about the city. It's fair to say this kind of shook the area and people far beyond it as well.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
And, you know, you talked about, of course, in the story that like he still had his wallet, he still had his watch. So that was pretty quickly kind of disproven.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
One thing that really stood out to me in this story, Josh, there was so much video. I mean, obviously, we had, yes, a video of him stumbling after he was stabbed. But the video of his final moments before that, I mean, the, you know, accused killer allegedly demonstrating his crime, like, oh. All of these different things.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Now, just to recap, when tech executive Bob Lee was fatally stabbed in 2023 on the streets of San Francisco, concerns grew over violence in the city. Investigators discovered that the crime was actually far more personal, involving the suspected killer's sister, allegations of sexual abuse, and a rather convoluted theory of the potential motive.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
It's like exactly like you said, like you look at one of those pictures. It's like, do you see a woman with a shawl or do you see a dog with a smile? Right. Like, what are you seeing? Let's talk about Bob Lee. I love the way that you unfolded it. I mean, first, of course, you talk about who he was to his family. And then it's like, ah, yes, here's who he was, you know, in the bigger sense.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
For a lot of us, it's like, oh, my God, that's the guy who founded Cash App. That's immediately what a lot of people go to because it's somebody whose influence was certainly felt by by all of us in some way.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
I have to say I have a new favorite term from this episode. Code play hard. I mean, it was one of those things where I heard it. I was like, oh, that I have a surprisingly clear picture of exactly the type of lifestyle you're talking about right now when he said that. Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Well, for this talking dateline, we also have an extra clip about the star witness in the trial, Kazar Momini, and what it was like for Bob Lee's brother to watch her take the stand and defend the man accused of killing him. All right, Josh, let's talk Dateline. How are you doing? I am good, my friend. How are you doing? Good, good. Great to see you.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
I'm curious, as you were going through your interviews and talking about people who knew Bob and also who were in that culture, did you find that anybody was hesitant to kind of dive into that?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Hi, everyone. It's Blaine Alexander and we are talking Dateline. I'm joined today by Josh Mankiewicz to discuss his episode Under the Bay Bridge. Now, if you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed. So make sure to go there, listen to it or stream it on Peacock and then come right back here.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
You know, I think that, you know, we got a beautiful picture, though, of the duality of Bob's life, right? Because we heard from Crystal Lee, like you said, and then we heard from their two kids, right? How he was just this truly loving dad, like some real concrete examples of how he taught them things, doting on his kids.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
Yeah. You know, you get a real sense of loss, I think, from the kids. They added a lot. When we get back, Bob Lee's brother thought Nima Momeni's testimony was outrageous. But what did he make of the accused killer's sister on the stand? We've got an extra clip from Josh's interview with Oliver Lee coming up. I want to talk about Kazar Momeni.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
I think it's very fair to say that Kazar Momeni was one of those unforgettable characters. She was so interesting. She became a key part, but it was very clear that she wanted nothing to do with this trial.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
So my first question, actually, this one came to me as I was watching. A lot of time in the Dateline world, our stories don't necessarily make national news before we air them on Dateline, right? Right. Our audience is hearing about them for the very first time when we bring them the story. This was clearly the opposite. This is a story that I remember when it first happened.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
I mean, you illustrate it right there, like Nima's defense attorney, who, by the way, is being paid for by Kazar, right? Says, don't believe a word she has to say. Don't don't believe anything.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
While we're on the subject of Kazar, a lot of people had thoughts about her, clearly, including Bob Lee's family. So we have an extra clip of Bob Lee's brother, Oliver Lee, talking about his impressions of Kazar Momini.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
I remember watching it. We covered it so heavily on NBC. How does that change your process, either the storytelling process or even just kind of how does that impact when you're trying to get people to do interviews with you?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
You know, when you look at kind of the Momini family as a unit, and I'm so glad that we heard from the mother in all of this too, what Krista said at the end just kind of angry at the family in its entirety. I will never forgive this family for what they did to Bob.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
I thought that that was really interesting, but I also, it made me, it made me wonder, was there ever any talk of anyone else being, you know, facing charges and all this as an accomplice or anything?
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
I want to ask you about the defense attorney, because one, I love the back and forth between the two of you guys. Obviously, you held your own. It was it was interesting. As soon as you introduced him and said he came from Miami to help with this case, I said, aha, Miami like that. You know, just kind of he seems like an attorney who came from Miami.
Dateline NBC
Talking Dateline: Under the Bay Bridge
But it was, you know, for our listeners who watched the episode and who are listening to us right now, one, it was a masterclass in how to do those types of interviews, right? Because I think for people who kind of see the end product of Dateline, when we're prepping for these, there's a lot of, you know, the story in and out. So you anticipate what your interviewee is going to say.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigators found a rusty lawnmower blade near her body. It was covered in blood.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
There were deep cuts on Shantae's scalp and face, bruises on both sides of her neck, her arms and legs, and something odd on her chest.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
An autopsy revealed Shantae had died from blunt force trauma consistent with that bloody lawnmower blade. She had also been sexually assaulted.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Crime scene techs collected evidence at the scene and sent it out for DNA testing, hoping it would lead them to Shantae's killer.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Alicia Bird is Investigator Bird's wife. She is also the county's assistant DA.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
When she saw a photo of that mark on Shantae's chest and considered that the murder happened on Friday the 13th, a theory started to take shape.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Maybe that could explain the why, if only they could figure out the who. Right away, Investigator Bird knew who he wanted to look at first.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Charlie Radel and Jackie Neal, the searchers who found Shantae.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
So you're thinking, we found who did this, and they gave themselves away.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Time to head to the sheriff's office for questioning. What might a polygraph reveal?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
The search for Shantae had ended, but the hunt for her killer was just getting underway. To start, investigators wanted to take a hard look at Charlie Radel and his girlfriend Jackie, the searchers who found Shantay.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
It seemed so unlikely that they just got lucky. The house is so remote, it's almost impossible to find, even with GPS. It's on a dirt road off of another dirt road.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
But one night, the horror became real. This was the scene of a crime so evil it haunted an entire community and made neighbor doubt neighbor. Everybody was a suspect.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Charlie and Jackie were both in their 40s, and they both knew Shantae from her daily walks in the neighborhood. She lived about a mile away from them.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
investigators took note of Charlie's emotion at the scene and invited him to the sheriff's office to see how he would answer questions there. Charlie told the investigator he'd just seen Shantae out walking not long before she disappeared.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Charlie said that as soon as they heard a search was being organized, he and Jackie jumped in the truck and hit the country roads.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Then, he said, they came upon that dirt road, the one leading to the haunted house.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
After looking around the dilapidated house, he said he decided to check the storm cellar. That's where he found Shantae's body.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
They also interviewed Jackie. The investigator asked her where Charlie was on Friday the 13th, the night Shantae disappeared.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
The search for justice would lead to a different house, a house of worship. Had evil made its way there too? For the congregation of North Lake Community Church, this simple building was a refuge, a place to sing and worship in peace, a haven for people like Shantae Blankenship.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Charlie also agreed to a polygraph. How hard did law enforcement press Charlie?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
While investigators searched for Shantae's killer, her family was facing the difficult task of planning her funeral. mourners gathered for the service at her beloved church.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Did you feel the love that this community had for your daughter? I did. I did. Did you ever consider the possibility that her killer might be right there in the room, in the church with you? I didn't. She didn't, but investigators did. They rigged up surveillance cameras inside the church. You thought that it was important to see who was coming, who was going.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
They also set up cameras at the cemetery by Shantae's grave.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
But after scrubbing through hours of video, investigators didn't find anything suspicious. Still, they were convinced Shantae's killer had to be close by, almost certainly someone she knew.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
So they would have to look at everyone in Shantae's circle, starting with the man closest to her.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
In the days after Shantae's body was found, her family and friends tried to come to terms with her savage murder. I know that you'd said at some point, even after she was found, There were days when you almost still expected to see her on those walks.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Was it hard for you to grasp that reality when you traveled down that road? Yes, because—
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
And as investigators looked for Shantae's killer, those closest to her were under scrutiny.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
John Adams, Shantae's live-in boyfriend. At 26, he was a year older than Shantae. They'd known each other since middle school, had been a couple for more than three years. They were even starting to talk about marriage. John meant a lot to her. She meant a lot to him. That's what mattered to Shantae's family. They made it clear to John that Shantae was special and needed to be protected.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Two days after Shantae's body was found, investigators paid John a visit. Hello. Hello. John recognized the deputy from a traffic stop.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Can we have this brush? Took pictures and examined Shantae's belongings. Just gonna dump this out.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Then they went back outside. That's when they let John know they weren't just looking for clues. They were looking at him.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
What is that on that hammer? Is that from pulling out nails or something? They took pictures of John's pickup truck and were interested to see a lot of lawnmowers in the shed. Man, do you guys have a lawn care service? Remember, it was a lawnmower blade that killed Shantae. They also wanted to know about John's relationship with Shantae.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigators had heard it was loving, but could be tense at times. It was strained.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Shantae was 25 and lived with her grandfather and boyfriend in a community on Lake Brownwood in Central Texas. Linda and Russell Lamond met Shantae at church. Russell was the assistant pastor. He and his wife took Shantae under their wing when she started showing up with a notebook and her own Bible.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Did you ever learn that Shantae had complained to neighbors about John sometimes wanting to control her?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
But Bitsy Hobbs, one of Shantae's friends, told investigators she heard the couple fighting. Shantae sounded angry.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
But they were about to find out. They had a stack of questions for John Adams. For starters, what did he do with his phone?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
John Adams seemed like a friendly guy when he met investigators. Who lives here?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
John said that around 5 p.m., he picked Shantae up at the restaurant where neighbors had seen her that afternoon. So he picked her up and took her to where?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
John said he then went to work at his restaurant job around 6 p.m.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
He said he worked an overnight shift and got home around 5 the next morning. Shantae wasn't there. He thought maybe she was at a friend's place.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
But investigators found something while searching his cell phone data.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
This time, the conversation was less friendly on both sides.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
John admitted he was trying to hide something, but not about Shantae.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
We interviewed him, too, and asked him what it was like to be grilled like that. You could tell that when they were talking to you, they weren't just trying to get information. They were thinking that you had something to do with it.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
He told us the same thing he told investigators. His relationship with Shantae was not perfect, but it was solid. Were there ever any rocky moments?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
It wasn't just investigators. John knew neighbors were quick to assume the boyfriend was to blame. But he told us what some saw as controlling behavior was his way of protecting Shantae. Already people were starting to point their fingers at you.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigators needed to check out everything John told them, including what he said about other men in town, like a guy named Bobby Sosa, who John said liked to throw parties.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Shantae's friend told investigators she'd seen a red and white Bronco in the neighborhood the night Shantae disappeared, that the driver waved at them and seemed creepy. They tracked down Sosa and confirmed he drove a red and white Bronco and brought him in for questioning at the sheriff's office. Sosa said he did drive by Shantae on her walk that night, but that was it.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Neighbors could count on seeing Shantae every day as she strolled her neighborhood by the lake. Friday, May 13, 2016, was no different, except that evening, Shantae went out for a walk and didn't come home. Her grandfather called Shantae's mom, Michelle McDaniel.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
The pressure to find Shantae's killer was mounting. We just know that they're out there. It's scary. You were preparing for a manhunt.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
It would all come to a head in a place they least expected.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
That place that Shantae loved most of all. We want to hate you, but we can't. John Adams, Shantae's serious boyfriend, was an obvious person to look at, even more so after investigators found out he'd been deleting text messages from his phone. Investigators checked out his story and confirmed those deleted text messages were just about marijuana.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
They were also able to get security video from the restaurant where John worked, along with the timesheets.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
I want to ask you, John, what do you miss the most about Shantae?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
John, as a suspect, was a dead end. But that didn't mean talking to him was a waste of time. Not at all.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
John gave them another name, a name they heard from other neighbors, Colin Smith.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Colin was in his 20s, did some lawn mowing and odd jobs around town, and he lived just around the corner from Shantae.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
And Shantae's stepdad, Stephen, recalls that months before the murder, Colin took Shantae out for a late-night joyride. Stephen was furious. What did you say?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Shantae also told her friend Colin wanted to meet up the night she disappeared.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Shantae's mother wasn't too worried at first, but as the hours ticked by, that changed. He told me she still wasn't home. The next day, her mom went to the house, took a look around, and saw that her purse was still there.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
That very well meant that Colin could have been the last person to see her alive.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Shea went to see him in person. How you doing, sir? I'm Jason Shea. I'm with the Texas Rangers. What's your name? Colin. How did you find him? Did he seem shifty to you?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Like other neighbors investigators spoke to, Colin said he did see Shantae the night she disappeared, but only from a distance. He'd seen her pass by his house on her last walk.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Shantae was just a friend, Collins said. But he told investigators that she was interested in more than friendship.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
investigators wanted to ask him more questions, this time hooked up to a lie detector. Why are we here today, Colin?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
But right before they got started, a key part of his story changed. He admitted he did have a physical relationship with Shantae.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Colin told police he didn't know Shantae and John were serious.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Was that the only thing he'd been hiding? Wired up to the machine, the questions got very specific. Did you physically cause the death of Shantae?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
The investigator told Colin the results of the tests were not good.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Colin, who'd been cooperative up to this point, seemed eager to leave.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Colin stayed long enough to give them his alibi. He'd been at his brother's house, he said, about 10 miles away.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Would Colin's alibi check out? Or would police be forced to consider a whole new theory?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigators thought they might finally be getting somewhere. In a room with a young man they found highly suspicious. Colin Smith was my main focus. Colin had initially lied to detectives about his relationship with Shantae. And when they hooked him up to that polygraph, it seemed he still wasn't telling the whole story.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigators raced to talk to Collins' brother before he could, and the brother confirmed his alibi.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
They also talked to his niece and nephew, who said they saw Colin, too.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigators also took Colin's DNA and sent it to the crime lab. How does that come back?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Another dead end. By now, DNA results were coming in from the other men they'd talked to. Shantae's boyfriend, John, was not a match. Neither was neighbor Bobby Sosa.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
And the DNA also proved those searchers who found Shantae were exactly what they appeared to be, good Samaritans. Far from suspects, they had been a blessing to the investigation.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
The timely discovery of Shantae's body was a stroke of luck that, to investigator Bird, felt like divine intervention. But that luck seemed to be running out as they tore through lead after lead. How many calls were coming in that you guys had to chase down?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigators collected samples from at least two dozen men, including Shantae's grandfather, Charlie. It seemed unthinkable the doting Charlie could be the killer, but Shantae's mom was in favor of testing him. You thought he could have possibly been involved?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
It wasn't the grandfather. And it also wasn't anyone in CODIS, the National Law Enforcement DNA Database. Back to square one.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Heart-wrenching for everyone in Shantae's quiet lakeside neighborhood. As weeks went by, and then months.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
The family reported her missing to the sheriff. And in a community this close, word spread quickly. A search was organized after church on Sunday. Were you surprised by how many people turned out to search?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
At Shantae's church, parishioners were desperate for answers.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
And because no one was above suspicion, investigators even wondered about the pastor himself.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
That went nowhere. And while authorities suspected the killer was someone Shantay knew, they couldn't rule out other theories. Did you ever consider the possibility that you were dealing with a serial killer?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Alicia Bird was still thinking about that strange symbol on Shantae's chest. What could it mean?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Investigator Bird's wife could see the case was weighing heavily on her husband.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Desperate for answers, Chante's stepfather admits he badgered his neighbors.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
What she didn't know was that Investigator Bird was about to take a leap of faith with a cutting-edge technology. Maybe this would reveal the face of the killer.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
One year after Shantae was murdered, her mom organized a memorial. Friends and family came together and walked Shantae's route. Everybody was out of breath. We didn't know how she did it. But that was her thing.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Those were difficult days for everyone. Those who loved her spent hours by her grave, the stone inscribed, singing in the angels' choir. Her stepfather, Stephen, was grieving and feeling guilty. Before she went missing, he told Shantae he might take her fishing on that Friday. Instead, he picked up an extra shift at work.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Despite all the leads the investigators had run down, Shantae's killer was still out there. Now, like a losing football team, they were ready for a Hail Mary.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Bird felt incredibly frustrated. He couldn't crack the case, even though he had the killer's DNA.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
So what you have in your hand is quite possibly the best piece of evidence in terms of identifying someone, but no name.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Then Bird heard about a new DNA technique his department had never used. The process is called phenotyping. It uses DNA to predict the way a person looks, eye, hair, and skin color, among other things. Back in 2017, it was a shiny new tool for law enforcement.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Bird Googled it and called around. So you're hearing success stories. Correct. And thinking, this could work for us too.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
But when the investigator ran it by others, he hit a wall of skepticism, including his wife Alicia in the district attorney's office.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
More money for an investigation that was already one of the most expensive this sheriff's office had ever done. Michael Murray is the Brown County District Attorney. Did you have concerns about whether or not this would even be admissible in court? Right.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Finally, they all agreed. It was time for that Hail Mary. They got the money, and the DNA was submitted to a lab owned by a Virginia tech company called Parabon. You thought, there goes $3,600 down the drain?
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Five months later, Investigator Bird got an email. It was late afternoon.
Dateline NBC
The Haunted House Confession
Did you think that it looked like a person? I mean, did it seem like, hey, this could lead us somewhere?
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The Haunted House Confession
Not exactly the miracle they were hoping for. Still, they posted it on social media and pinned their hopes on the public. The chance that somebody out there just might recognize this face.
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The Haunted House Confession
It was Sunday afternoon. Shantae had been missing almost 48 hours.
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The Haunted House Confession
But it didn't ring a bell for Destiny either. To me, looks like any dude... picture you know everyone felt defeated then michelle got a call from another member of the family shantay's half brother he saw something others didn't and gave his mother a name to look up my heart hit the floor and i remember crying and i turned and i said this is him At first, the Parabon sketch felt like a big dud.
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The Haunted House Confession
Police posted it on social media and showed it to the family, but nothing. Then Michelle's son, Cutter, called her. He said he felt like he knew it right then. Cutter told his mom he was sure the sketch showed somebody he knew, someone named Ryan Riggs.
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The Haunted House Confession
Deputies sped down a road five miles from Shantae's home to that abandoned farmhouse. Their body cameras were rolling as they met Charlie Radel and his girlfriend, Jackie Neal.
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The Haunted House Confession
Ryan Riggs was a local, a member of Shantae's church. Cutter knew Riggs from high school and would never forget him.
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The Haunted House Confession
Michelle called Scott Bird and gave him the name. You've got a picture. You've got a name. How do you put those together?
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The Haunted House Confession
What did you think when you saw that side by side? I started becoming a believer. Maybe it wasn't a waste of $3,600.
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The Haunted House Confession
Investigators still had a lot of work to do. The sketch alone wasn't enough for an arrest.
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The Haunted House Confession
They learned that the 21-year-old Riggs loved playing video games online and picked up work doing lawn care. When Shantae first went missing, he'd even been part of the search, riding with John on an ATV.
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The Haunted House Confession
When investigators looked in their own files, they learned more.
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The Haunted House Confession
Dumping trash is no big deal, but where he dumped it was. Just a half mile from where Shantae's body was found, along that same remote country road. So what does that tell you?
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The Haunted House Confession
What's more, in those dark days after Shantae's murder, Riggs was a constant presence. Here he is captured on the police surveillance video, attending Shantae's funeral, waiting at the entrance to the church, then watching from the doorway. Midway through the service, he gets a program and takes a seat. And then he leaves before it's over.
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The Haunted House Confession
He would come into your intimate space and offer comfort, give you hugs.
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The Haunted House Confession
The fact that he was there for some of the most painful moments, that had to feel like the ultimate insult.
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The Haunted House Confession
Investigators now had a new and urgent priority. Find Ryan Riggs.
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The Haunted House Confession
After police released the sketch to the public, Riggs had taken off.
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The Haunted House Confession
The investigation had been jump-started, and another dramatic development was just around the corner, not in the woods or the brush, but at the very church that Shantae loved. I want you guys to take me to that Wednesday night church service. Ryan Riggs was now the prime suspect in Shantae's murder. But almost a week after the DNA sketch was made public, he was nowhere to be found.
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The Haunted House Confession
Russell and Linda Lamond had no idea there was an all-out manhunt underway for the young man they knew from church.
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The Haunted House Confession
On November 15, 2017, 18 months after Shantae was murdered, the Lamonts headed to church for a regular Wednesday night service. I want you guys to take me to that Wednesday night church service.
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The Haunted House Confession
Brown County Sheriff's Office investigator Scott Bird responded to the scene. What was the condition she was in?
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The Haunted House Confession
There was Ryan, not hiding, not on the run, but there in plain sight at the church.
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The Haunted House Confession
And then Ryan Riggs, standing alone at the pulpit in front of the whole congregation, said it. He was a murderer.
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The Haunted House Confession
I want to ask you, Russell, all I had to do was mention that church service, and you were almost brought to tears.
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The Haunted House Confession
So it was very clear to you from the beginning, this is a murder investigation?
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The Haunted House Confession
This is a brutal, cold-blooded murderer, and he's being treated with kid gloves. He's allowed to come to this church where he's very familiar, confess in front of people who love him. Where's the SWAT team? Where are the dogs?
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The Haunted House Confession
That meant all hands on deck. Texas Ranger Jason Shea was called in to help.
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The Haunted House Confession
Before that unforgettable scene at the church, Riggs had been on the run for several days. But then he showed up at the church with his parents, told the pastor what he'd done, and asked if he could confess to the congregation. The pastor agreed. So after the confession, what happens?
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The Haunted House Confession
So they all ride to the sheriff's office together. He's not cuffed. He's not arrested. He's just in the car with his parents going to the sheriff's office.
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The Haunted House Confession
Investigator Byrd and Ranger Shea rushed to the sheriff's office.
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The Haunted House Confession
This is somebody that you've been pursuing for 18 months, day in and day out. Finally, you're face to face with this person. What was that moment like for you?
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The Haunted House Confession
This was the news Michelle had wanted so badly for so long, ever since that terrible Friday the 13th. Her daughter's killer was finally in custody. But she was confused by the way it happened. Ryan Riggs did not confess to authorities. He'd done it in front of the congregation at Shantae's church.
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The Haunted House Confession
I can tell just looking at you when you talk about it, it affects you. Yeah, sure.
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The Haunted House Confession
This was the place where she would go and find comfort day after day, where she would sing and sit in the pews. The place she loved. Yeah. How did it feel to know that he had chosen that place, that church, to confess to killing her?
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The Haunted House Confession
Michelle was angry that the pastor had arranged what Riggs himself described as a moment of salvation.
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The Haunted House Confession
When Riggs arrived at the sheriff's office after the service, he was finally face-to-face with Ranger Shay and Investigator Bird.
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The Haunted House Confession
Riggs said they drove around the neighborhood, Then he pulled over in a secluded spot.
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The Haunted House Confession
He told investigators that as they sat there in the truck listening to music, something inside of him changed.
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The Haunted House Confession
Riggs knew about the haunted house because he'd been there with friends when he was a teenager.
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The Haunted House Confession
It was an appalling story. But the way Riggs told it was cold, almost methodical.
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The Haunted House Confession
As you're sitting there listening to him, what are you thinking about this guy?
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The Haunted House Confession
But before D.A. Murray went to court to seek the death penalty, he talked to Shantae's family. He wanted them to know there is a long process before an execution can be carried out, likely spanning many years.
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The Haunted House Confession
So the state offered Riggs a deal, a life sentence without the possibility of parole.
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The Haunted House Confession
Riggs accepted the deal. He was sentenced in February 2019.
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The Haunted House Confession
And on the streets where she walked, in the church where she sang, Shantae's spirit is still very much alive. Her family visits her on holidays, decorating her grave and picturing her smiling as she sings in the angels' choir.
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The Haunted House Confession
Shantae's mother, Michelle, heard the sirens first. Then a friend who'd helped organize the searches came to find her in person.
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The Haunted House Confession
Why would anyone want to hurt Shantae? What was it about Shantae that just really drew people to her?
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The Haunted House Confession
Stephen McDaniel is Shantae's stepfather. He'd known her since she was six years old. What was Shantae like?
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The Haunted House Confession
Shantae was tiny, not even five feet, barely 90 pounds, but she had big opinions about what to wear, what to do, and how to pronounce her name.
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The Haunted House Confession
And her grandfather, Charlie, the one she lived with, was happy to give her whatever she wanted. He'd helped raise her from birth.
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The Haunted House Confession
Growing up, Shantae needed extra care. She developed more slowly than other kids. So her walking, her talking, all of that was delayed. Uh-huh.
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The Haunted House Confession
But she didn't do it alone. It seemed everyone in the neighborhood had a protective eye on her. From her family, her friends, and of course, her boyfriend, John.
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The Haunted House Confession
So did her friends at church. I understand that there were some times you would help her with the hymns that would be sung in church.
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The Haunted House Confession
Shantae's church had become the makeshift headquarters for her search. Now it was where authorities launched their investigation.
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The Haunted House Confession
Texas Ranger Jason Shea and a team of investigators canvassed Shantae's neighborhood, retracing her final steps. This really was the starting place for your investigation.
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The Haunted House Confession
A handful of neighbors had seen her at a local restaurant just a few hours before she disappeared. Then she went home, said goodbye to her boyfriend John before he left for work at 6 p.m. She set out for her walk right after, eventually meeting up with a friend. That friend, Caitlin McAbee, told investigators that she and Shantae walked together for a couple of hours.
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The Haunted House Confession
Her grandfather confirmed to police that call was at 8.48 p.m.
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The Haunted House Confession
Caitlin said after that, she and Shantae said goodbye. She was laughing and just took off running.
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The Haunted House Confession
Yeah, down the road. And then within minutes after, she and her friend split.
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The Haunted House Confession
And where she and her friend parted ways, how far was she from her home? Quarter mile. When you think about that small window, does it mean that the killer was maybe following her, waiting for her?
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The Haunted House Confession
What happened next was still a mystery, but a bizarre clue was about to spark a new and terrifying question.
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The Haunted House Confession
The old house was set back from the road, isolated and in a state of disrepair. Even for a native like investigator Scott Bird, a complete mystery.
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The Haunted House Confession
Investigators soon learned it was a party spot for kids. Teenagers had nicknamed it the haunted house. It's obvious that people haven't lived here for years.
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The Haunted House Confession
Investigators set up a grid search, combing every inch of the property for clues.
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The Haunted House Confession
They found Shantae's bracelets scattered across the grass. Here's another pink man right here, John.
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The Haunted House Confession
So what did that tell you? Bracelet here, bracelet there, both on the ground.
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The Haunted House Confession
Down this back country road is an isolated stretch of land, a place where hunters come looking for prey. Behind the fence, just through the overgrown grass, sits an abandoned farmhouse. The few people who know it's here call it the haunted house.
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The Haunted House Confession
Investigators concluded someone had dragged Shantae to the place where she was found.
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The Premonition
Coming up... Neighbor after neighbor told us we needed to hone in on the next door neighbors. What was going on next door? So you just straight up asked her, were you having an affair with John Yelnik?
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The Premonition
So you have one neighbor who hears what he believes to be a pig squealing in the early morning hours of the murder.
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The Premonition
Neighbor after neighbor told us we needed to hone in on the next-door neighbors. The next-door neighbors had the biggest connection to John Yelnik.
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The Premonition
A murder investigation in a rural community begins. The release of information often comes in drips. So it wasn't a big city murder. So it wasn't a big city press conference about what happened.
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The Premonition
He had a premonition. He believed someone was plotting his murder. I wonder what it must have been like when he saw the face of the person who was about to end his life.
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The Premonition
Drive down the street, you see statues of Jimmy Stewart. I mean, what's more American than that?
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The Premonition
To walk in a historic courtroom and see flat-screen televisions and every kind of electronic multimedia device possible, in this case, they put it to use.
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The Premonition
The jury went back to deliberations. Two more hours passed. In most of the murder trials that I have covered, I could have told you ahead of time what the verdict was going to be. I really wasn't sure what the verdict was going to be in this case.
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The Premonition
It was stunning to have a state trooper from their community convicted of murder. It really is going to be decades before this community will get over something like this.
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The Premonition
I still remember being taken back by what I saw. Not only were there people everywhere, there were police and firemen and ambulance. everywhere lining the street.
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The Premonition
The neighbors were terrified. Because no one in this community wants to think this was a random crime. Do we now lock our doors in Blairsville? Do we now get security systems in Blairsville? This is unheard of. Things like this don't happen here.
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11 Minutes
Madison had started hanging out with a group of friends, but I feel like, too, that group of friends kind of opened a door to marijuana and partying and all that stuff.
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11 Minutes
Finding out that Madison was released and that it was done, I feel like she's finally at peace. She can be at peace because for her babies to be in turmoil, that's not something that would be acceptable for her.
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11 Minutes
She was all about her kids all the time. I always kind of thought she was like this do-it-all kind of mom.
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11 Minutes
But I knew it wasn't, but yeah, she did. You know, she always looked good. She always, you know, put her best foot forward.
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11 Minutes
She would just share little stories, not much, but just maybe he wasn't as nice to her, he didn't talk to her like he would talk to someone you love.
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11 Minutes
Obviously, Madison had thrown a party, and so they had to talk to Madison about it. And she was like, I'm going to have to go over there.
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11 Minutes
No, she did not want to go. She did not. But she was going to. I mean, she needed to go for Madison.
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11 Minutes
I remember we had a birdhouse that my mom had brought over and she was going to put it in my backyard. The other kids, run, go, play, have fun, you know, oh, mom needs help, whatever.
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Deadly Entanglement
We hear a noise, and the imagination runs wild. Of course, we usually just shrug it off, go back to sleep, and wake up the next morning perfectly fine. This is not that story. The woman in this story woke up alone to that very nightmare. It was around 3.30 a.m. Someone was in her house. They'll be there to help her. They'll be there to defend her. Someone who was there only to kill.
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Deadly Entanglement
Did it seem as though he was trying to almost downplay his affair with Paige by saying that Desiree was involved, Desiree knew about it, she was good with all of it?
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Deadly Entanglement
The detective asked Scott if he knew of anyone who had a problem with Desiree.
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Deadly Entanglement
Meanwhile, investigators had been gathering evidence. There was some DNA under Desiree's fingernails?
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Deadly Entanglement
There was also a shoe print on the carpet, a few feet from Desiree's body.
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Deadly Entanglement
They also collected security video from the area, looking for Scott's car. And they took his phone. Then they let him go.
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Deadly Entanglement
But by the time he walked out of the sheriff's office, detectives weren't the only ones wondering about Scott. After Iraq, he was a different Scott. Different. The students at Wapato Middle School were struggling. Desiree Sunford, the cool art teacher in room 147, was gone.
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Deadly Entanglement
How were they taking it? We had a couple kiddos get really angry. Really angry. Fellow teacher Michelle Howell was heartbroken too, but she put on a brave face.
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Deadly Entanglement
Still, she realized just how raw her emotions were when a student came up to her during lunch break.
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Deadly Entanglement
Who would want to kill Tiz? Nobody. People in Desiree's hometown of Moses Lake were both sad and stumped.
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Deadly Entanglement
At first, Kayla thought it could have been related to the burglary that happened a week earlier. Did you think a person came back?
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Deadly Entanglement
explanation when kayla checked in with desiree's mother connie she learned about scott's strange behavior at the crime scene she told me that scott called the police because he didn't want to go in and she was
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Deadly Entanglement
And Kayla wasn't surprised that Scott seemed unemotional at the crime scene. For the Scott that you know, that's not outside of his character. Correct.
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Deadly Entanglement
Desiree's brother, Casey, wondered if Scott knew more than he was letting on.
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Deadly Entanglement
Kim O'Dell had the same gut feeling. She had known Scott since middle school, and she saw how much his time in the Army had changed him. After Iraq, he was a different Scott.
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Deadly Entanglement
A diabolical plot, born of sex and obsession, where the killer was as unexpected as the victim.
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Deadly Entanglement
People in Desiree's life noticed Scott seemed more detached, less loving. And there was another reason their marriage may not have been rock solid. Had you heard that Desiree was stepping out on Scott? I didn't. Years earlier, Kim found out Desiree had cheated on Scott before they were married. Did she ever tell Scott about this? She did. Did they have to try and patch things up?
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Deadly Entanglement
Between Desiree's infidelity and the change she saw in Scott, Kim wondered if Scott had just snapped.
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Deadly Entanglement
Desiree's loved ones were grasping for answers, but what they didn't know was detectives thought they might already have one in Paige Blades, who was about to tell investigators her story.
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Deadly Entanglement
Detectives wasted no time in contacting the other woman in Scott's and maybe Desiree's life, Paige Blades. How quickly did you go see her?
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Deadly Entanglement
Paige said she didn't have money for gas, so detectives drove almost two hours to her house. She was 23, shared a young son with an ex-boyfriend, and she worked at a food processing plant in Moses Lake.
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Deadly Entanglement
Paige said she and Scott soon became more than friends. We became intimate probably later that first year.
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Deadly Entanglement
Just as Scott had told them, Paige said it was all good, that Desiree was perfectly comfortable with the arrangement. Until she wasn't. That was about seven months before her murder.
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Deadly Entanglement
So now you're getting a different picture, perhaps, of this relationship than the one that Scott was portraying. That Desiree wasn't completely on board with their dealings.
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Deadly Entanglement
Paige said her relationship with Desiree may have cooled... But the affair with Scott continued right up until the night of Desiree's murder.
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Deadly Entanglement
Yakima County, Washington, where a marriage of mountains and countryside creates a stunning backdrop. Picturesque? Certainly. But people here are no strangers to crime. Retired Yakima County Sheriff's Deputy Ed Levesque has patrolled nearly every square mile of this county and seen everything from petty theft to homicide.
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Deadly Entanglement
As she talked, detectives thought she sounded a little too practiced.
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Deadly Entanglement
Do you kind of put a bookmark next to her name thinking she's somebody we're going to have to dig further into?
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Deadly Entanglement
Later, when detectives spoke to those close to Desiree, Paige's and Scott's stories of a lovely, amicable three-way didn't seem plausible. Kim said she'd never heard of Paige. Desiree never mentioned her as a friend. Nope. When you first hear about her and kind of her connection in their world, what did you think?
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Deadly Entanglement
Never heard of her name before. She also didn't buy the idea of a three-way affair. Ugh.
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Deadly Entanglement
So the idea of her allowing another woman to even enter the relationship, that's not the Desiree you know. No, that's not the Desiree I know. But could Desiree have hidden such an affair? To detectives, anything seemed possible in a case that would be loaded with secrets. We had just found out about three weeks before the shooting that
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Deadly Entanglement
Two weeks after Desiree was killed, her family and friends gathered for a funeral as unique as the woman herself.
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Deadly Entanglement
When you think about that poem with Desiree, did you feel that she lived that dash to the fullest?
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Deadly Entanglement
Scott was there at the funeral, of course. But for Michelle, that memory is not a pleasant one.
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Deadly Entanglement
Detective Johnson was hearing similar stories that Scott just didn't seem like the grieving spouse.
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Deadly Entanglement
Now, devil's advocate, you never know how somebody's going to react in a traumatic situation. This is a military man. Perhaps he just was stoic by nature. This was perhaps his defense mechanism when hearing this hard news.
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Deadly Entanglement
So a late-night call to report a possible break-in wasn't rare. Like that call on April 7, 2013. Sheriff's Office.
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Deadly Entanglement
But their suspicions were based on more than his demeanor. About two months after the murder, investigators got what sounded like explosive news. You get a tip that Paige was pregnant with Scott's baby when the murder happened. What did you think when you heard that?
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Deadly Entanglement
But then, some questions were answered when the lab results came back. The DNA found under Desiree's fingernails was male DNA, but... Wasn't Scott's DNA.
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Deadly Entanglement
Results on the bloody shoe print also came in. No connection to Scott.
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Deadly Entanglement
And the evidence from his phone? When you were going through that cell phone data, did it tell you where Scott and Paige were at the time of the killing?
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Deadly Entanglement
They confirmed that Scott's phone wasn't at the scene of the crime. Neither was Paige's. And all those gas station security cameras they checked? There was no sign of Scott's car near his home at the time of the murder. It's like you've got a lot of shiny pennies, but they're not adding up to much at this point. Does your investigation start to go cold?
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Deadly Entanglement
But as the investigation of Scott seemed to cool, interest in Paige was about to get white hot with revelations of some hostile texts. There was one where Paige texted Desiree and said, I'm fairly convinced that in the event of your demise, I would be the chosen one. Oh my gosh. A wannabe boyfriend with a bizarre motive. He worships the girl they walk on. He's obsessed with me.
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Deadly Entanglement
and even an attempted sting. We talked about it if I came over next weekend. Just how did Paige fit into this twisted case? We would try to find out for ourselves. There are people who would look at this and say that you came into their marriage and basically just tore it apart.
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Deadly Entanglement
What had seemed to be mounting evidence against Scott Sunford was amounting to very little, and the investigation into Desiree's murder seemed like it had gone quiet. How hard was that time for you?
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Deadly Entanglement
31-year-old Scott Sunford was driving home to Yakima County when he saw a notification. An alarm had gone off at his house where his wife Desiree was home alone.
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Deadly Entanglement
Meanwhile, investigators were taking a harder look at Paige Blades, the third wheel in the Sunforts' marriage. Turns out, there was another man in Paige's orbit. She'd brought him up in her interview with the detectives.
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Deadly Entanglement
Detectives learned Paige's ex-boyfriend, Dylan, had actually been involved in a shooting death two years earlier. He told officers two men came to his home in Moses Lake and assaulted him, so he shot one of them in self-defense. It was ruled a justifiable homicide. You did bring Dylan in to talk to him, correct?
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Deadly Entanglement
At the time of Desiree's murder, he had two firearms registered in his name, but neither was the same caliber as the gun that killed Desiree. And his alibi checked out. What's more, when Paige gave birth toward the end of the year, Dylan asked for a paternity test. It showed the baby was his, not Scott's. So in the end, Paige's baby didn't matter to the case.
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Deadly Entanglement
But that didn't mean there weren't serious problems between Paige, Scott, and Desiree in the months before the murder. Investigators learned a whole lot about that when the digital evidence finally came back. There it was, a trove of eye-opening texts between Desiree and Paige that told a dramatically new story about the two women and Scott.
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Deadly Entanglement
The texts began more than a year before the murder and early on showed a close friendship between the two women. Desiree wrote, Page answered, They alluded to one night that wasn't strictly platonic. Desiree wrote, Paige responded, But there was no evidence that they were engaged in an ongoing affair.
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Deadly Entanglement
In fact, about three weeks later, the texts showed Desiree getting tired of Paige living in her home. She wanted more privacy with Scott. Desiree wrote, It's starting to wear out. So the idea of you here for a week and who knows what next scares me. Where the hell is our time? Paige responded, Typically, that means there's a problem in your marriage and you might want to decide what to do with it.
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Deadly Entanglement
Deputies were dispatched to the scene, but Scott got there first. He called 911 again.
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Deadly Entanglement
Desiree wrote, me not wanting a friend here all the time with my husband means there's marital issues? WTH. What does this tell you about Paige and Desiree and their relationship?
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Deadly Entanglement
The texts revealed something else. Not only was Desiree unhappy, she had no idea Scott and Paige were intimate. She texted Paige, I still have to say that you two doing anything sexual would bother me. Paige answered, he and I doing anything sexual is out of the question. In her messages, it doesn't seem that Desiree has any knowledge or thought that Paige and Scott are intimate at all.
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Deadly Entanglement
From the texts, it's clear Desiree was worried about her marriage, and Paige was making it worse. In some exchanges, she was downright brutal. There was one where Paige texted Desiree and said, I'm fairly convinced that in the event of your demise, I would be the chosen one. Oh my gosh. Desiree says, huh?
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Deadly Entanglement
And Paige goes on to say, if you ever die and he needs a wife, I'm half convinced that would be me. Even just watching you, I can see that still upsets you.
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Deadly Entanglement
After that, Desiree finally pushed back, telling Paige to stay away for good. Texting, I'm going to ask nicely for you to distance yourself from me, my home, and my family. Paige's response? Not a problem. I've been wanting to do away with you for quite a while now. And then, She hurled a couple of obscenities at Desiree. I would imagine this is an important detail in your investigation.
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Deadly Entanglement
As provocative as the texts were, they didn't reveal a murder plot. But another call to the tip line was about to change everything.
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Deadly Entanglement
A name and a wild story about a stranger with a strange obsession. Almost 14 months had passed since Desiree Sunford's murder. when out of nowhere, a woman called the Yakima Sheriff's tip line and left a message. What did the caller say?
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Deadly Entanglement
Ed Levesque and two other sheriff's deputies raced to get to Scott, but the house was way out of town.
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Deadly Entanglement
Who was Marty Grismer? To figure that out, job number one was to find the tipster.
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Deadly Entanglement
They traced the phone call, and when they got their answer, they couldn't believe it. Who was it?
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Deadly Entanglement
You've not spoken to her in months, but now suddenly she's saying she knows who the killer is. Where did that come from?
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Deadly Entanglement
Marty had recently gotten married. Still, Paige said he kept asking her for sex and would hit on her at work. She let him know that wasn't happening, ever. But he was a friend, a really good friend.
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Deadly Entanglement
He was like her fixer, she said, would do anything for her, something she suggested he took too far.
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Deadly Entanglement
And Paige claimed Marty recently told her he took care of those issues.
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Deadly Entanglement
The baby wasn't Scott's, of course. Paige insisted Marty didn't make this confession until more than a year after Desiree's murder. She said she was shocked when Marty told her, especially since her relationship with Scott had cooled. And Scott was with another woman. She said Marty offered to take care of that, too.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Desiree and Paige and Scott all knew each other well. Yes. I was accepted as a part of their marriage. Paige called this tipping. She says, I know who the killer is.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
And that, she said, is when she decided to call the tip line. When you look at the motive for Marty, that he killed Desiree so that this woman that he was obsessed with could be happy with another man who wasn't him, have you ever heard a motive like that.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Paige said Marty described Desiree's murder in detail. She said Marty had been to the house before and knew there was a key hidden near the front door. He got the key.
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Deadly Entanglement
He even gave the operator his wife's phone number to call. it went straight to voicemail. When Deputy Levesque and his partners finally arrived, they saw a man standing outside, pointing a gun and a spotlight at the house.
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Deadly Entanglement
And those details were gruesome. I don't remember how many bullets he said.
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Deadly Entanglement
I don't think he mentioned the brand. It all lined up with what detectives found at the crime scene. Paige said Marty told her he headed home and got rid of the evidence.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
What was her demeanor when she sat down and told you what Marty had said? Did she seem scared?
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Page Blades had just told Yakima detectives that Marty Grismer, her co-worker and sometimes fixer, had confessed to murdering Desiree Sunford. What did you think as you're listening to this?
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Ideally, they'd record that conversation. So they asked Paige to meet Marty again, this time wearing a wire. Today's date is August 8, 2014. Eight days later, she and Marty got together at a Starbucks near work.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
As undercover officers snapped photos of Paige and Marty leaving the coffee shop, Paige persisted.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Marty had no criminal history. His DNA wasn't in the system. So they scoured every other part of his life and took a closer look at his family.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
This is Beth Maxwell. She met Marty on a dating site in May 2013, a month after Desiree's murder.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
And Marty quickly fit into Beth's life, becoming a father figure to her young son. He was amazing.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
It was a whirlwind romance. After just four months together, they got married. Why so quickly?
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Deadly Entanglement
So much so that Beth felt blindsided by Marty's choice of a best man, his best friend, Paige. I want to make sure I'm getting this straight. Marty's best man was Paige. A woman.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
The honeymoon phase was short. Beth noticed that Marty prioritized Paige above all else.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
That's a love language. Mm-hmm. You were married to a man who was seemingly completely devoted to another woman. You believed that Paige... had feelings for your husband. I think so.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Beth was wondering just what she'd gotten herself into when there's a knock at the door.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Just steps into the dark house, the deputies found Desiree on the floor in her underwear, a bandage on her leg.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Nineteen months after Desiree's murder, police and sheriff's deputies were at Marty Grismer's door. What did you say to him to convince him to come with you?
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Whatever happened with Scott and Desiree and Paige, Marty said he was an impartial observer, and only that. And all through that first part of that interview, his guard is pretty much down.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Detectives listened to Marty for about half an hour. And now, the softball portion of the interview was over.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
They told Marty they'd been doing some research about him, had gotten a call from his boss.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Except he seemed to have forgotten how he got this particular gun barrel. The fact is, detectives knew all about the gun barrel. They'd gotten it from Marty's boss and had rushed it to the lab. And what do you know?
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Marty seemed to realize this interview was going in a very bad direction.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
And that was only going to get worse as detectives got to the point.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
And then he said he remembered something. He said Page did have his gun fitted with that barrel at the time of the murder.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
This was around February, although she had it for a while. Until May, he said, well after the murder. And then Marty turned the tables on Paige and said he had long suspected she had something to do with Desiree's murder.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
We also had a few questions for Paige. Did you and Scott conspire with Marty to have her killed? November 13th, 2014, 19 months after Desiree Sunford was found shot to death in her home, Marty Grismer was charged with her murder. Desiree's friend Kayla thought someone else should have been locked up along with him, Paige Blades.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
So it was that very moment, in the middle of the night, in the middle of nowhere, that a wild mystery began. Are there parts of this case that still kind of linger in your mind, that still kind of bother you?
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Even after Marty's arrest, Paige's role in the Sunford's marriage remained something of a mystery to Desiree's family and friends, and to investigators, too. You were still looking at her. You still didn't think her hands were completely clean here.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Do you think that there are things that people get wrong about you?
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Paige Blades is 35 years old now, the mother of four kids. She works in customer relations. And she says she still has strong feelings for and about Desiree Sunford.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
It's been more than a decade since Paige's entanglement with Desiree, Scott, and Marty. Do you feel like you're a different person now?
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Paige says she's worked hard to battle addiction, money problems, and the ghosts of a turbulent, abusive childhood. She admits to a pattern of troubled relationships, like what she had with Scott and Desiree.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
They were partying, hanging out. Paige says when she finally met Desiree, they became fast friends. And in fact, it was Desiree's idea for her to stay with them.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
During that bed arrangement, Were you all sexually active? Yeah. Everybody with each other?
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
In those text messages, Paige and Desiree carried on flirty exchanges. But in other messages, it seems Paige wasn't being honest about her relationship with Scott. At one point, Desiree texted you, I still have to say that you two doing anything sexual would bother me. And you responded, yeah, he and I doing anything sexual is out of the question. Was that true?
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Did you ever mislead Desiree into thinking that you and Scott weren't sexually active? Not as far as I know or remember. Paige says she does remember when Desiree's patience reached the breaking point. She writes this, I'm done with the drama and the BS. I'm going to ask nicely for you to distance yourself from me, my home, and my family. And you respond in part, not a problem.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
I've been wanting to do away with you for quite a while now. And then go on to call her some names that I can't repeat on TV. It sounds like you didn't take too kindly to her telling you to stay away.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Paige moved out, but she kept seeing Scott. There are people who would look at this and say that you came into their marriage and basically just tore it apart.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Did you want to be with him? Would you have wanted to be his wife, have a relationship with him solely?
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
No. I want to get you to respond to one more text thread between you and Desiree. You write, I'm fairly convinced that in the event of your demise, I would be the chosen one. Desiree says, huh? And you say, if you ever die and he needs a wife, I'm half convinced that would be me. What was that about?
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
At the time, Paige shared details of her life with another friend, Marty Grismer.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Paige says she told Marty all about her rift with Desiree, that she was still seeing Scott, and pregnant with his child. Paige insists she never thought his moral support would turn to murder and was shocked when Marty confessed to killing Desiree. He went into excruciating detail of what he did to Desiree. This was somebody who was your friend. How hard was this for you to listen to?
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
So some people would look at this and say, you had to have planted some sort of seed in his mind by talking about Scott, by talking about the fact that you believed you were pregnant with his baby. That would make him think, if I get rid of Desiree, I'm making Paige happy.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
There are many people who believe that you conspired with Marty, that you wanted Desiree out of the picture so that you could be with Scott, and that you essentially put Marty up to killing her. Never. No truth to that?
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Did you and Scott conspire with Marty to have her killed? No, absolutely not. Her friends would say, if you hadn't been in the picture, if it weren't for you, Desiree would have never gotten killed, that she would still be alive today. How do you respond to that?
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Maybe not, but her testimony would be key to the case against Marty. Prosecutors had to worry, whose case would she actually help? Theirs or the defense's?
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
All through the night, detectives and forensic techs arrived at Desiree's son for its home, now a crime scene. Desiree's husband, Scott, remained outside the house, no longer holding his gun.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Paige Blades may have turned Marty in, but no one close to Desiree saw that as a selfless act. Do you buy that trying to do the right thing?
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
But there's no denying it was Paige's tip that got them to Marty. Still, it wasn't an easy case. There was no crime scene DNA matching Marty, no shoe of his that matched the bloody shoe print, and no video of him in that area at the time of the murder. Then, as Marty sat in jail awaiting trial, a call came in from the plant manager at Marty's job.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
The stolen laptop and iPad, taken from Desiree and Scott's house when it was burglarized five days before the murder. But that jewelry box was key. It connected Marty directly to the murder. Page had told investigators that Marty said he took it the night he killed Desiree. It was all found along with a big clue as to who left it there. A receipt with the name Marty Grismer. That's big.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
A month later, detectives got a call from Marty's cellmate at the jail. And he's had some interesting conversations with Marty.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
And he was also talking about Paige. The cellmate said Marty was furious with her.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
She had turned him in. Paige would be the star witness against him at his trial. So Marty suggested a way his cellmate could solve his problem. Kill Paige and a friend of hers.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
That's quite a swing, going from doing anything for Paige, obsessed with her, will kill for her, to, according to the cellmate, wanting to put out a hit to get rid of her.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
No hit ever happened, and the cellmate got cold feet and refused to testify, which didn't help prosecutors, who were already dealing with a difficult circumstantial case full of imperfect evidence and, maybe worse, two possible alternate suspects. You had wondered about Scott and Paige's involvement from the very beginning.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Were you concerned that the defense might try and use that as an alternate theory?
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Meanwhile, local police broke the terrible news to Desiree's mother, who then called her son, Desiree's brother, Casey.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
In December of 2017, Marty Grismer was offered a deal. His first-degree murder charge would be reduced to second if he took what's called an Alford plea, admitting there's enough evidence to convict without actually admitting guilt. Desiree's brother felt there was no choice.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Casey attended the sentencing hearing with his mother, Connie. She spoke to the court.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
In the end, Marty Grismer was sentenced to just 15 years in prison. He's scheduled to be released in 2029. Desiree's friends and family were angry. They didn't think Desiree got justice. Was that good enough?
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
They also remain angry at Scott. While he was never charged in the case, they're certain his affair with Paige led to Desiree's murder.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Scott moved away after Desiree died. He's now remarried. As for Paige, she was never charged either. But still, Desiree's loved ones cannot shake the idea that she was involved. There are many people who believe that you got away with murder, that you should be in prison too.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Still, the people who loved Desiree say they try not to dwell on Scott or Paige. They want to focus on the good on Desiree.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Desiree's mother, Connie, had to sell her daughter's beloved Chevelle to pay for her headstone. Hey, Des. It's been a while. Connie died before it was installed. She's buried next to her daughter. It's a beautiful headstone.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
It's all her, Desiree Sunford, the beloved Harley riding art teacher.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
It was impossible for Desiree's loved ones to believe she was gone. Kayla Lewis was one of her closest and oldest friends. What stood out about Desiree?
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
And Desiree loved cars, classic cars. Her dad taught her how to restore anything from a truck to a convertible. And even after he died from cancer when she was 12, she kept working under the hood.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Of course, at 16, she had another focus, boys. One in particular, Scott Sunford. Her friend Kim O'Dell says Desiree got a kick out of Scott's goofy side.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Scott proposed in 2003. He was 22. She was 21. The wedding was just days before he deployed.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
While Scott was deployed, Desiree finished college and even earned a graduate degree. Eventually, she got her dream job as an art teacher at Wapato Middle School outside of Yakima. Michelle Howell and Desiree bonded as young teachers.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
You know, every school has a cool teacher where you just want to go and sit and eat your lunch or just go and sit and just talk. It sounds like Desiree. She was one of them. Was a cool teacher. Yep. She was definitely one of them. By 2012, Scott was back in Washington working at a National Guard training center. the couple adopted a dog and named her Ada.
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Deadly Entanglement
They scraped together enough money to buy a home way out in the country. She's married her high school sweetheart. They have a home together.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Desiree and Scott seemed well on their way to building a happy grown-up life. But then on April 2nd, just five days before she was murdered, Desiree came home to find someone had broken into their house and stolen an iPad and a laptop. The burglary shook her up. Scott put up a plywood board over the broken back window. And to calm Desiree's fears, they installed an alarm system.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Desiree owned firearms, too, and always kept a gun at her bedside. But neither the alarm nor her gun stopped her killer. And now the terrible news of Desiree's death was everywhere.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Now, down at the sheriff's office, investigators were digging into the case.
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Deadly Entanglement
Scott explained he had been out of town the day before, at his aunt's funeral, when the weather got bad. He called Desiree.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
He checked his phone again. That's when he noticed the alarm had gone off hours earlier. He made that first call to 911.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Investigators were curious about Scott's last-minute decision to stay overnight. They would become even more curious when he told them where he stayed.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
When Desiree Sunford was shot to death during an apparent break-in at her home, deputies at the scene noticed right away her husband Scott seemed strangely calm.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
And something about him didn't sit right with the detective either. He asked Scott why he stayed on with the 911 operator instead of rushing inside to see if his wife was okay.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
We've all had that fear, that middle of the night, home alone in a dark, empty house kind of fear.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
Yakima County Sheriff's Detective Dave Johnson, now retired, worked Desiree's case. And this is somebody who presumably could have handled the situation. He knows his way around a firearm. He's got a gun.
Dateline NBC
Deadly Entanglement
The detective switched topics and asked Scott about spending the night away after his aunt's funeral.
Dateline NBC
The Terrible Night On King Road
There's always more to the story. To go behind the scenes of tonight's episode, listen to our Talking Dateline series with Keith and Blaine, available Wednesday.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
James Craig was arrested for the first-degree murder of his wife, Angela. Prosecutors say he poisoned her protein shakes with potassium cyanide and tetrahydrozoline, which is found in eye drops. Now, if this sounds familiar, it might be because we've talked about the case on the podcast here before last November, when Craig was set to go to trial.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Wow. So those are some pretty big accusations about testimony. That was really important for the defense. So what happens next year?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Next, let's go to Idaho. And there is some big news in the case of Brian Koberger, the man accused of fatally stabbing four University of Idaho students back in 2022. Rachel, what did we learn about this one?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So the defense here is possibly laying the groundwork for alternate suspects, right? Do we know where that blood was found?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So the defense was arguing the arrest warrant should be thrown out. But just this Wednesday, Judge Stephen Hippler issued his ruling on the defense's motions to suppress the DNA information, arrest warrants, and Koberger's cell phone data. So all of that will actually be allowed in the trial this summer. Exactly.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Finally, we're off to Western Maryland for an update in a case that we first told you about a couple of weeks ago. Investigators linked the murders of an elderly man in California, a husband and wife in Pennsylvania, and the fatal shooting of a Vermont border guard to a group of young people called the Zizians. What's the news there, Rachel?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Rachel, thanks so much for bringing us all of that. We are so glad to have you on today. Thank you, Blaine. For our final story this week, we are joined by a very special guest, the most special of guests. Keith Morrison is here to talk about his brand new original podcast, Murder in the Moonlight. Hi, Keith.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
That is, until his defense team withdrew at the last minute on the day that jury selection was set to begin. Our NBC affiliate KUSA 9 News in Denver reported on that development.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Well, I'm so glad to have you here. This story, this is a fascinating one. It starts in Murdoch, Nebraska. It's a small farming town. And you have this line in there in the first episode that I love where it says, heads turn when a stranger drives by. And it really feels like that kind of small town where everybody knows everybody, where that really is true. Yeah.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
No, but that's one heck of a tease. You know, a couple of things about this podcast stand out. We get to see two very different sides of an investigation. There's some really great detective work that happens. And then there's some not so great detective work that happens. And so investigators figure out pretty quickly that there were two people in the house that night. How did they even do that?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Interesting. Wow. How's that for highlighting some detective work? So the story starts in Murdoch, Nebraska, but it doesn't stay there. It ends up being a multi-state investigation involving several law enforcement agencies, right?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So we've got some sound from an upcoming episode. It features an unsuspecting woman in Buffalo, New York, who was running a jewelry manufacturing business. Police asked for her help in tracking down who might have bought the ring just in case it was one of the killers.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
At a hearing last week, we finally got to hear more about the murders that the prosecution says Craig had planned. Dateline producer Tim Eulinger was in the courtroom, and he joins us now to tell us what he learned and where the case could go next. Tim, thank you so much for being here with us.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Yeah, this was definitely a fascinating one, Keith. I can't wait to listen to the entire series. It's fantastic. And next week, episodes will be dropping on Monday and Wednesday. So Keith, we've got a lot of stuff to look forward to. Thank you so much for joining us.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. Andrea Canning will be right back here with you next week. If you wanna find out more about the cases featured on our podcast, check out our website at datelinetruecrimeweekly.com. And to get ad-free listening for all of our podcasts, subscribe to Dateline Premium. Coming up this Friday on Dateline, Andrea has an all-new two-hour episode.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Two schoolgirls murdered in the woods of Delphi, Indiana. For years, the case went unsolved. Police were at a standstill except for one clue, a grainy picture and a gravelly voice captured on one of the girls' cell phones.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
The voice of the killer.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Could these girls help solve their own mystery? Watch A Walk in the Woods, airing this Friday at 9, 8 central on NBC, or stream it starting Saturday on Peacock. Thanks so much for listening. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Frannie Kelly and Katie Ferguson. Our associate producers are Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey. Our senior producer is Liz Brown-Kurloff.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Production and fact-checking help by Sara Kadir. Veronica Mazeka is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original music by Jesse McGinty. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production. Paul Ryan is executive producer. And Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline. Okay. Anything else? All right. Thanks very much. Bye-bye.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
It's got tons of twists and turns. So just to start, can you quickly just remind us, remind our listeners of the original crime that James Craig was accused of, the murder of his wife, Angela?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Wow. Okay. So I guess that begs the question, did Craig have any explanation for why he had that potassium cyanide?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So what are investigators saying about a motive? What are they pointing to there?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Okay, so fast forward to last fall, and Craig is hit with the other charges, solicitation to commit murder and solicitation to commit perjury. What do we know about those accusations?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Those are some mighty explosive allegations. My goodness.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Tim, you were in court for this hearing. What did we learn about the prosecution's case?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly. I'm Blaine Alexander, in for Andrea Canning, who's off this week. It's February 20th, and here's what's on our docket. In Hawaii, a man accused of murdering his wife's acupuncturist ex-lover took the stand in his own defense.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
You're listening in to a story meeting at Dateline headquarters in 30 Rockefeller Center. It's raining, but it's actually pretty mild. Our editorial team is catching up on breaking crime news around the country.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
OK, Tim, so prosecutors are saying that these letters were part of Craig's plan to fabricate evidence. But I'm curious, through all of this, did James Craig have any sort of visible reaction as prosecutors were talking through all of this new evidence?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Craig is now on his third defense team. What did his lawyers have to say at the hearing?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
And what's notable, this is not the first time that Craig has been accused of interfering with his case from jail, right? Prosecutors say that he has allegedly asked other inmates to help him fabricate evidence twice before this incident.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So it seems, Tim, that we know a lot about the prosecution's case from evidence that they've talked about in documents or in hearings in court. What do we know about what James Craig's defense is going to look like?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Any idea of when we will actually see a trial in this?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
And we've got this week's roundup of top crime stories, including the arrest of the leader of a group called the Zizians, which prosecutors believe is connected to six violent deaths. Big rulings on defense motions in Idaho for Brian Koberger. And drama in the latest pretrial hearing in the Karen Reid case.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So we'll be watching very closely this summer. Tim, thank you so much for following all of this and joining us today.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Up next, a Hawaii man is standing trial for the second time on charges he murdered his wife's ex-lover. Last week, jurors got to hear from him for themselves. In Honolulu, it's the final days of Eric Thompson's murder trial. He's accused of killing John Tokuhara, the acupuncturist his wife had a brief affair with back in 2022.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
He and his lawyers were undecided until the last minute on Eric taking the stand in his own defense. But Thursday afternoon, he was sworn in. And he stayed on the stand for three days.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Dateline associate producer Kelly Moody was inside the courtroom, and she joins me now to tell us what Eric says happened between him and his wife, Joyce, and what he was doing that January evening when John Tokuhara died. Kelly, thanks so much for joining us today. Yeah, you bet. First, just kind of remind us what Eric Thompson is accused of.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
What is the defense saying in all of this?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Yeah. So far, it's been pretty similar to the first trial, right? Are the same witnesses being called here?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So one of the big pieces in all of this is that white bucket hat. What's happening with the new testing on that hat?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
On Thursday, Eric Thompson took the stand in his own defense.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Plus, Keith Morrison will be here to fill us in on his latest podcast series, Murder in the Moonlight.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
let her do her thing I probably didn't even pick out that suit myself I think I think Joyce took care of everything and of course the big elephant in the room is his wife's affair right has Eric testified about it and how has he reacted to that portion of this
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
somebody found a gold ring in a place where it didn't belong did it belong to the killer and then you go on a long and winding pathway to find the truth but before all that we're heading back to aurora colorado where a dentist awaiting trial on charges of allegedly murdering his wife was back in court last week facing new charges It all started back in 2023.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
But then, of course, he faced cross-examination by the prosecution. Were they able to land any blows, anything major there?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
What is left to go in this trial?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
This is truly a fascinating case. Kelly, thanks so much. Yeah, you're welcome. Coming up, it's Dateline Roundup, big rulings from the judge in Brian Koberger's case, drama at the courthouse before Karen Reid's second trial, and more about the arrest of the leader of a cult-like group called the Zizians, which police have connected to murders from Pennsylvania to California.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Plus, Keith Morrison will be here to talk about Murder in the Moonlight, his latest podcast series. Welcome back. Joining us for this week's Dateline Roundup is Dateline super producer Rachel White. Hi, Rachel. Hey, Blaine. How are you? I'm good. Glad to have you with us. So we've got a lot to talk about. First up, we are off to Dedham, Massachusetts for an update in the Karen Reid case.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
And you'll remember she's the woman accused of drunkenly backing her SUV into her police officer boyfriend, John O'Keefe, back in 2022 and leaving him to die in the snow.
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Okay, so what's the news that we have in the run-up to this retrial?
Dateline NBC
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So what information is the judge talking about here?
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Who on the call would want to do the rocket? I'm curious. It's time for the morning meeting here at Dateline headquarters.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
How long did it take the jury to deliberate on this?
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Okay, got you. So let's take a listen to what the jury decided here. Here's the verdict.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Okay. And a quick plug for those who have not seen the Dateline episode that Josh did on this. It should be on your Dateline feed. Peacock, wherever you see it, but it was a fantastic episode about that case. Okay, let's move on to the trial of Linda Stermer, the Michigan woman accused of killing her husband by setting their house on fire and running over him with a van.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
They say that greed and betrayal motivated Lori to plot her husband's murder with her brother so she could collect $1 million in life insurance and be free to marry her lover, the self-proclaimed doomsday prophet, Chad Daybell. Lori, who's representing herself in court, has denied all of this, telling the jury that Alex, who is now dead, shot her husband in self-defense.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
What verdict did they reach this time around?
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
All right, so up next, Rex Heuermann, that's the accused Gilgo Beach serial killer, back in Suffolk County Court this week for a hearing regarding some pretty critical evidence in this case. Rachel, what's this one about?
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Well, Rachel, the prosecution says that the lab's analysis linked Heuermann to the hairs found on the victims, but the defense says this method of DNA testing has never been used before in New York courts and has also called it substandard.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
So Rex Heuermann's estranged wife, Asa Ellerup, and their daughter, Victoria Heuermann, were at the hearing this week. Did either of them have anything to say to the press this week?
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
So Heerman has pleaded not guilty to all of the charges against him. And of course, we will certainly be waiting to see how the court rules on this. All right, Rachel, thanks for joining us this week. Thank you for having me. For our final story today, we wanted to talk about a fascinating new book that's just been published. It's called The Scientist and the Serial Killer.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
On an August afternoon more than 50 years ago, police officers gathered at a boat shed in Houston, Texas, where they dug up the bodies of more than a dozen young boys. They were the victims of the so-called Candyman serial killer. His name was Dean Corll, and he got the nickname the Candyman because of the years he spent helping his mother run candy stores in the area.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
That's where he ended up meeting some of his victims. Others he lured to his home with the help of two teenage accomplices. The murders were only exposed after one of those accomplices shot and killed Corll, but that was not the end of the story.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Many of the bodies were never identified until decades later, a forensic anthropologist in the Harris County Medical Examiner's Office by the name of Dr. Sharon Derrick made it her mission to return the lost boys to their families. We're joined now by Lisa Olson, the author of the book and an investigative journalist who has spent years researching this story.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Lisa, thank you so much for joining us to talk about this. Thank you for having me. Well, Lisa, I guess, you know, before I even get into the case itself, I want to ask, how did this come to be something that you dove into and ultimately wrote a book about?
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
I want to talk about Dr. Sharon Derrick and kind of her work in really restoring identity to these kids. One, talk to me about what that looks like, because yes, you talk about the scientific method of going through and actually identifying the kids, but restoring identity in a bigger sense as well.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
But earlier this week, the jury got to hear Lori under very different circumstances as the prosecution played snippets from her interviews with detectives. And what happened?
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
At the time, the Candyman was abducting kids. Parents were reporting their kids missing. But for some reason, the police just didn't connect some of these reports to Dean Corll even after the bodies of his victims were discovered. And this quest to identify victims actually became personal to Dr. Derrick.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Yeah, they just got charged like five minutes ago.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
And calls with an insurance agent in the wake of Charles's death. Here to fill us in is Nate Eaton, the news director at East Idaho News and an NBC News consultant on this case. Nate right now is calling us tucked away in the corner of a courthouse in Phoenix. Nate, thank you so much for joining us.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
She plays the zombies at his service. So Randy is the first identification that Dr. Derrick made in this case. And through her work, she was actually able to increase the number of known victims. Tell us about that.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
This is a fascinating story, Lisa, and I'm grateful for Dr. Derrick's work on this and just her tireless work to bring some dignity and identity back to these young men and their families. And many thanks to you, too, for just telling these stories in this fascinating book. The title, again, is The Scientist and the Serial Killer. Thank you.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
And that's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. But remember, if you want to leave us a message with questions or suggestions for cases you'd like us to cover, you can reach us on social media at DatelineNBC or call that phone line 212-413-5252. And if you like the show, and we hope you do, please go online and vote for it.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
We have been nominated for a Webby Award in the Crime and Justice Podcast category, along with Datelines Missing in America Season 3. So voting closes on Thursday, April 17th. You don't have much time. We've included the voting link in the episode description. So please, please go and vote. We appreciate you so much. Finally, get ready for a weekend of classic Datelines on NBC.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
We have episodes for you on Friday and Saturday at 9, 8 central and a Sunday episode at 10, 9 central. Thanks so much for listening. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Frannie Kelly and Katie Ferguson. Our associate producers are Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey. Our senior producer is Liz Brown-Kurloff. Veronica Mazeka is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Original music by Jesse McGinty. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production. Paul Ryan is executive producer. And Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline. See you later. Bye-bye.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Listen, thank you for giving up your food to bring us up to speed. So this week, the trial has given the jury a chance to hear Lori's voice from the hours and days after her brother, Alex Cox, shot Charles Vallow. And some of this comes from phone calls that Lori made to ban her life insurance after her husband's death.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
So tell us about those phone calls and why they're so important for the prosecution here.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly. I'm Blayne Alexander, filling in today for Andrea, who's out on vacation this week. It's April 17th, and here's what's on our docket. In Massachusetts, a jury is seated for Karen Reid's highly anticipated retrial. Ahead of opening statements, we'll catch you up on what to watch out for this time around.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
How did she react when she found out? That had to have been very surprising for her.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Okay, let's listen to some of that conversation.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Interesting. I'm fascinated on what it must have been like to be in the courtroom listening to those calls play. What was the mood inside the courtroom? How were people reacting?
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Also this week, the prosecution called the detective Cassandra Inklin to the stand. She interviewed Lori in the hours after the shooting, and the jury got to hear some of that this week.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
What else did we learn from the detective during her testimony?
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
There is just so much here. Nate, thank you so much for keeping us up to speed. And for more on the trial, you can also check out Nate's show, Courtroom Insider. That's live at 8 p.m. Mountain Time on the East Idaho News YouTube channel every day after court.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Other stories on our radar this week. We've got verdicts in two murder trials and a pivotal pretrial hearing in the case of the alleged Gilgo Beach serial killer.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
You too. Coming up, as Karen Reid's blockbuster retrial gets underway, how her own words may come back to haunt her. Karen Reed's first trial began almost a year ago. Reed was charged with second-degree murder, among other charges, for allegedly killing her boyfriend, John O'Keefe, a Boston police officer.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Prosecutors say she left him to die in the snow after hitting him with her SUV outside of a party at the home of another Boston police officer. Now for its part, the defense argued that O'Keeffe had been beaten up inside the house and Reed was being framed for his death. Reed has pleaded not guilty. Her first trial ended after nine weeks without a verdict. I'm declaring a mistrial in this case.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
In the years since, Karen Reid's case has never been far from the headlines as attorneys have continued to battle it out in pretrial hearings and Reid herself has spoken out. This week, a jury was finally selected for the retrial. With opening statements set for next Tuesday, Dateline producer Sue Simpson joins us again to bring us the very latest on what to expect this time around.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Sue, there is so much to watch here. Thanks so much for joining us to break it all down. Yeah. Hi, Blaine. Hi. Hi. Okay, so let's get into it. On Tuesday, we finally got a jury. That is big.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Okay. So in the initial trial, a lot of our listeners will remember that jury selection happened in the first week. This time around, it took double that time. So why did it take longer this time around?
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Interesting. So that longer process, that's just one of several differences between the first trial and the second as it's playing out. Another big difference is what's happening outside the courtroom.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Plus, we're joined by author and investigative journalist Lisa Olson to talk about her new book on one of the deadliest serial killers in American history and the scientist who helped return his victims to their families. She took the police report home, she read it late at night, and she noticed names of kids who had been forgotten.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
There was also some news this week from the prosecution about their strategy for this retrial. They filed a notice saying that they intend to introduce statements that Karen's made outside of court.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
So one thing we are expecting to look pretty similar in the second trial is the witness list. And there's one name in particular that people, of course, are very curious about. Michael Proctor. A lot of our listeners will remember that name. Just remind us who he is. And do we expect to see him take the stand this time?
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
And after the jury was selected on Tuesday, speaking of who may testify, Karen Reed herself was asked if she planned to testify. She said, quote, to be determined. So what do you think? Do you think we'll see her take the stand this time? Million dollar question, maybe a billion dollar question.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
But before all of that, we're heading back to Arizona, where Lori Vallow Daybell's trial for conspiring to murder her fourth husband continues, and so does the drama. For the past week, prosecutors have presented their theory of what happened on the morning of July 11th, 2019, when Lori Vallow Daybell's fourth husband, Charles Vallow, was shot and killed by her brother, Alex Cox.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
So we'll have to see. Interesting. So opening statements scheduled to begin in this case this coming Tuesday. One last thing that will be different this time around, getting into the courts. So last time, for the longtime listeners of our podcast, they'll remember that you were faithfully sitting in line with your soccer chair very, very early in the morning.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Yeah.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Our producers are catching up on breaking crime news around the country.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
That's what the people need. We need the Sue Simpson soccer chair. Sue Simpson, our intrepid reporter who has been all over this case from the beginning of time. Sue, thank you so much. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. Up next, verdicts are in on two separate murder trials that we've been following. Two female defendants, both accused of murdering their husbands. Will either of them walk free?
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Plus, author Lisa Olson is here to talk about her new book on the man she calls the worst serial killer you've never heard of and the scientist who's working to bring closure to the families of his victims. Welcome back. Joining me for this week's roundup is Dateline booking producer Rachel White. Hi, Rachel. Hi, Blayne. How are you? So good to talk with you. It's great to be here.
Dateline NBC
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Okay, so let's dive in. Let's start with two verdicts that came back last week in trials that we've been following pretty closely here on the podcast. First up, the murder trial of Monica Simantelli, the wife of Hollywood hairstylist Fabio Simantelli. Rachel, just real quickly, remind us about that case.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
James Craig was arrested for the first-degree murder of his wife, Angela. Prosecutors say he poisoned her protein shakes with potassium cyanide and tetrahydrozoline, which is found in eye drops. Now, if this sounds familiar, it might be because we've talked about the case on the podcast here before last November, when Craig was set to go to trial.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Wow. So those are some pretty big accusations about testimony. That was really important for the defense.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Next, let's go to Idaho. And there is some big news in the case of Brian Koberger, the man accused of fatally stabbing four University of Idaho students back in 2022. Rachel, what did we learn about this one?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So the defense here is possibly laying the groundwork for alternate suspects, right? Do we know where that blood was found?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So the defense was arguing the arrest warrant should be thrown out. But just this Wednesday, Judge Stephen Hippler issued his ruling on the defense's motions to suppress the DNA information, arrest warrants, and Koberger's cell phone data. So all of that will actually be allowed in the trial this summer. Exactly.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Finally, we're off to Western Maryland for an update in a case that we first told you about a couple of weeks ago. Investigators linked the murders of an elderly man in California, a husband and wife in Pennsylvania, and the fatal shooting of a Vermont border guard to a group of young people called the Zizians. What's the news there, Rachel?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
We are so glad to have you on today. Thank you, Blaine. For our final story this week, we are joined by a very special guest, the most special of guests. Keith Morrison is here to talk about his brand new original podcast, Murder in the Moonlight. Hi, Keith.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
That is, until his defense team withdrew at the last minute on the day that jury selection was set to begin. Our NBC affiliate KUSA 9 News in Denver reported on that development.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Well, I'm so glad to have you here. This story, this is a fascinating one. It starts in Murdoch, Nebraska. It's a small farming town. And you have this line in there in the first episode that I love where it says, heads turn when a stranger drives by. And it really feels like that kind of small town where everybody knows everybody, where that really is true. Yeah.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
No, but that's one heck of a tease. You know, a couple of things about this podcast stand out. We get to see two very different sides of an investigation. There's some really great detective work that happens. And then there's some not so great detective work that happens. And so investigators figure out pretty quickly that there were two people in the house that night. How did they even do that?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Interesting. Wow. How's that for highlighting some detective work? So the story starts in Murdoch, Nebraska, but it doesn't stay there. It ends up being a multi-state investigation involving several law enforcement agencies, right?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So we've got some sound from an upcoming episode. It features an unsuspecting woman in Buffalo, New York, who was running a jewelry manufacturing business. Police asked for her help in tracking down who might have bought the ring just in case it was one of the killers.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
At a hearing last week, we finally got to hear more about the murders that the prosecution says Craig had planned. Dateline producer Tim Eulinger was in the courtroom, and he joins us now to tell us what he learned and where the case could go next. Tim, thank you so much for being here with us.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Yeah, this was definitely a fascinating one, Keith. I can't wait to listen to the entire series. It's fantastic. And next week, episodes will be dropping on Monday and Wednesday. So Keith, we've got a lot of stuff to look forward to. Thank you so much for joining us.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. Andrea Canning will be right back here with you next week. If you wanna find out more about the cases featured on our podcast, check out our website at datelinetruecrimeweekly.com. And to get ad-free listening for all of our podcasts, subscribe to Dateline Premium. Coming up this Friday on Dateline, Andrea has an all-new two-hour episode.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Two schoolgirls murdered in the woods of Delphi, Indiana. For years, the case went unsolved. Police were at a standstill except for one clue, a grainy picture and a gravelly voice captured on one of the girls' cell phones.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
The voice of the killer.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Could these girls help solve their own mystery? Watch A Walk in the Woods, airing this Friday at 9, 8 central on NBC, or stream it starting Saturday on Peacock. Thanks so much for listening. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Frannie Kelly and Katie Ferguson. Our associate producers are Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey. Our senior producer is Liz Brown-Kurloff.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Production and fact-checking help by Sara Kadir. Veronica Mazeka is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original music by Jesse McGinty. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production. Paul Ryan is executive producer. And Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline. Okay. Anything else? All right. Thanks very much. Bye-bye.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
It's got tons of twists and turns. So just to start, can you quickly just remind us, remind our listeners of the original crime that James Craig was accused of, the murder of his wife, Angela?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Wow. Okay. So I guess that begs the question, did Craig have any explanation for why he had that potassium cyanide?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So what are investigators saying about a motive? What are they pointing to there?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Okay, so fast forward to last fall, and Craig is hit with the other charges, solicitation to commit murder and solicitation to commit perjury. What do we know about those accusations?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Those are some mighty explosive allegations. My goodness.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Tim, you were in court for this hearing. What did we learn about the prosecution's case?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly. I'm Blaine Alexander, in for Andrea Canning, who's off this week. It's February 20th, and here's what's on our docket. In Hawaii, a man accused of murdering his wife's acupuncturist ex-lover took the stand in his own defense.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
You're listening in to a story meeting at Dateline headquarters in 30 Rockefeller Center. It's raining, but it's actually pretty mild. Our editorial team is catching up on breaking crime news around the country.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
OK, Tim, so prosecutors are saying that these letters were part of Craig's plan to fabricate evidence. But I'm curious, through all of this, did James Craig have any sort of visible reaction as prosecutors were talking through all of this new evidence?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Craig is now on his third defense team. What did his lawyers have to say at the hearing?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
And what's notable, this is not the first time that Craig has been accused of interfering with his case from jail, right? Prosecutors say that he has allegedly asked other inmates to help him fabricate evidence twice before this incident.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So it seems, Tim, that we know a lot about the prosecution's case from evidence that they've talked about in documents or in hearings in court. What do we know about what James Craig's defense is going to look like?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Any idea of when we will actually see a trial in this?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
And we've got this week's roundup of top crime stories, including the arrest of the leader of a group called the Zizians, which prosecutors believe is connected to six violent deaths. Big rulings on defense motions in Idaho for Brian Koberger. And drama in the latest pretrial hearing in the Karen Reid case.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So we'll be watching very closely this summer. Tim, thank you so much for following all of this and joining us today.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Up next, a Hawaii man is standing trial for the second time on charges he murdered his wife's ex-lover. Last week, jurors got to hear from him for themselves. In Honolulu, it's the final days of Eric Thompson's murder trial. He's accused of killing John Tokuhara, the acupuncturist his wife had a brief affair with back in 2022.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
He and his lawyers were undecided until the last minute on Eric taking the stand in his own defense. But Thursday afternoon, he was sworn in. And he stayed on the stand for three days.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Dateline associate producer Kelly Moody was inside the courtroom, and she joins me now to tell us what Eric says happened between him and his wife, Joyce, and what he was doing that January evening when John Tokuhara died. Kelly, thanks so much for joining us today. Yeah, you bet. First, just kind of remind us what Eric Thompson is accused of.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
What is the defense saying in all of this?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Yeah. So far, it's been pretty similar to the first trial, right? Are the same witnesses being called here?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So one of the big pieces in all of this is that white bucket hat. What's happening with the new testing on that hat?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
On Thursday, Eric Thompson took the stand in his own defense.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Plus, Keith Morrison will be here to fill us in on his latest podcast series, Murder in the Moonlight.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
let her do her thing I probably didn't even pick out that suit myself I think I think Joyce took care of everything and of course the big elephant in the room is his wife's affair right has Eric testified about it and how has he reacted to that portion of this
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
somebody found a gold ring in a place where it didn't belong did it belong to the killer and then you go on a long and winding pathway to find the truth but before all that we're heading back to aurora colorado where a dentist awaiting trial on charges of allegedly murdering his wife was back in court last week facing new charges It all started back in 2023.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
But then, of course, he faced cross-examination by the prosecution. Were they able to land any blows, anything major there?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
What is left to go in this trial?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
This is truly a fascinating case. Kelly, thanks so much. Yeah, you're welcome. Coming up, it's Dateline Roundup, big rulings from the judge in Brian Koberger's case, drama at the courthouse before Karen Reid's second trial, and more about the arrest of the leader of a cult-like group called the Zizians, which police have connected to murders from Pennsylvania to California.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Plus, Keith Morrison will be here to talk about Murder in the Moonlight, his latest podcast series. Welcome back. Joining us for this week's Dateline Roundup is Dateline super producer Rachel White. Hi, Rachel. Hey, Blaine. How are you? I'm good. Glad to have you with us. So we've got a lot to talk about. First up, we are off to Dedham, Massachusetts for an update in the Karen Reid case.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
And you'll remember she's the woman accused of drunkenly backing her SUV into her police officer boyfriend, John O'Keefe, back in 2022 and leaving him to die in the snow.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
Okay, so what's the news that we have in the run-up to this retrial?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
An alleged "murder dentist" in Colorado. Hawaii husband takes the stand at his second murder trial. And Keith talks about his latest podcast series.
So what information is the judge talking about here?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Who on the call would want to do the rocket? I'm curious. It's time for the morning meeting here at Dateline headquarters.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
How long did it take the jury to deliberate on this?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Okay, got you. So let's take a listen to what the jury decided here. Here's the verdict.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Okay. And a quick plug for those who have not seen the Dateline episode that Josh did on this. It should be on your Dateline feed. Peacock, wherever you see it, but it was a fantastic episode about that case. Okay, let's move on to the trial of Linda Stermer, the Michigan woman accused of killing her husband by setting their house on fire and running over him with a van.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
They say that greed and betrayal motivated Lori to plot her husband's murder with her brother so she could collect $1 million in life insurance and be free to marry her lover, the self-proclaimed doomsday prophet, Chad Daybell. Lori, who's representing herself in court, has denied all of this, telling the jury that Alex, who is now dead, shot her husband in self-defense.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
What verdict did they reach this time around?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
All right, so up next, Rex Heuermann, that's the accused Gilgo Beach serial killer, back in Suffolk County Court this week for a hearing regarding some pretty critical evidence in this case. Rachel, what's this one about?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Well, Rachel, the prosecution says that the lab's analysis linked Heuermann to the hairs found on the victims, but the defense says this method of DNA testing has never been used before in New York courts and has also called it substandard.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
So Rex Heuermann's estranged wife, Asa Ellerup, and their daughter, Victoria Heuermann, were at the hearing this week. Did either of them have anything to say to the press this week?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
So Heerman has pleaded not guilty to all of the charges against him. And of course, we will certainly be waiting to see how the court rules on this. All right, Rachel, thanks for joining us this week. Thank you for having me. For our final story today, we wanted to talk about a fascinating new book that's just been published. It's called The Scientist and the Serial Killer.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
On an August afternoon more than 50 years ago, police officers gathered at a boat shed in Houston, Texas, where they dug up the bodies of more than a dozen young boys. They were the victims of the so-called Candyman serial killer. His name was Dean Corll, and he got the nickname the Candyman because of the years he spent helping his mother run candy stores in the area.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
That's where he ended up meeting some of his victims. Others he lured to his home with the help of two teenage accomplices. The murders were only exposed after one of those accomplices shot and killed Corll, but that was not the end of the story.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Many of the bodies were never identified until decades later, a forensic anthropologist in the Harris County Medical Examiner's Office by the name of Dr. Sharon Derrick made it her mission to return the lost boys to their families. We're joined now by Lisa Olson, the author of the book and an investigative journalist who has spent years researching this story.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Lisa, thank you so much for joining us to talk about this. Thank you for having me. Well, Lisa, I guess, you know, before I even get into the case itself, I want to ask, how did this come to be something that you dove into and ultimately wrote a book about?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
I want to talk about Dr. Sharon Derrick and kind of her work in really restoring identity to these kids. One, talk to me about what that looks like, because yes, you talk about the scientific method of going through and actually identifying the kids, but restoring identity in a bigger sense as well.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
But earlier this week, the jury got to hear Lori under very different circumstances as the prosecution played snippets from her interviews with detectives. And what happened?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
At the time, the Candyman was abducting kids. Parents were reporting their kids missing. But for some reason, the police just didn't connect some of these reports to Dean Corll even after the bodies of his victims were discovered. And this quest to identify victims actually became personal to Dr. Derrick.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Yeah, they just got charged like five minutes ago.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
And calls with an insurance agent in the wake of Charles's death. Here to fill us in is Nate Eaton, the news director at East Idaho News and an NBC News consultant on this case. Nate right now is calling us tucked away in the corner of a courthouse in Phoenix. Nate, thank you so much for joining us.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
She plays the zombies at his service. So Randy is the first identification that Dr. Derrick made in this case. And through her work, she was actually able to increase the number of known victims. Tell us about that.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
This is a fascinating story, Lisa, and I'm grateful for Dr. Derrick's work on this and just her tireless work to bring some dignity and identity back to these young men and their families. And many thanks to you, too, for just telling these stories in this fascinating book. The title, again, is The Scientist and the Serial Killer. Thank you.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
And that's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. But remember, if you want to leave us a message with questions or suggestions for cases you'd like us to cover, you can reach us on social media at DatelineNBC or call that phone line 212-413-5252. And if you like the show, and we hope you do, please go online and vote for it.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
We have been nominated for a Webby Award in the Crime and Justice Podcast category, along with Datelines Missing in America Season 3. So voting closes on Thursday, April 17th. You don't have much time. We've included the voting link in the episode description. So please, please go and vote. We appreciate you so much. Finally, get ready for a weekend of classic Datelines on NBC.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
We have episodes for you on Friday and Saturday at 9, 8 central and a Sunday episode at 10, 9 central. Thanks so much for listening. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Frannie Kelly and Katie Ferguson. Our associate producers are Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey. Our senior producer is Liz Brown-Kurloff. Veronica Mazeka is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Original music by Jesse McGinty. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production. Paul Ryan is executive producer. And Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline. See you later. Bye-bye.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Listen, thank you for giving up your food to bring us up to speed. So this week, the trial has given the jury a chance to hear Lori's voice from the hours and days after her brother, Alex Cox, shot Charles Vallow. And some of this comes from phone calls that Lori made to ban her life insurance after her husband's death.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
So tell us about those phone calls and why they're so important for the prosecution here.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly. I'm Blayne Alexander, filling in today for Andrea, who's out on vacation this week. It's April 17th, and here's what's on our docket. In Massachusetts, a jury is seated for Karen Reid's highly anticipated retrial. Ahead of opening statements, we'll catch you up on what to watch out for this time around.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
How did she react when she found out? That had to have been very surprising for her.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Okay, let's listen to some of that conversation.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Interesting. I'm fascinated on what it must have been like to be in the courtroom listening to those calls play. What was the mood inside the courtroom? How were people reacting?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Also this week, the prosecution called the detective Cassandra Inklin to the stand. She interviewed Lori in the hours after the shooting, and the jury got to hear some of that this week.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
What else did we learn from the detective during her testimony?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
There is just so much here. Nate, thank you so much for keeping us up to speed. And for more on the trial, you can also check out Nate's show, Courtroom Insider. That's live at 8 p.m. Mountain Time on the East Idaho News YouTube channel every day after court.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Other stories on our radar this week. We've got verdicts in two murder trials and a pivotal pretrial hearing in the case of the alleged Gilgo Beach serial killer.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
You too. Coming up, as Karen Reid's blockbuster retrial gets underway, how her own words may come back to haunt her. Karen Reed's first trial began almost a year ago. Reed was charged with second-degree murder, among other charges, for allegedly killing her boyfriend, John O'Keefe, a Boston police officer.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Prosecutors say she left him to die in the snow after hitting him with her SUV outside of a party at the home of another Boston police officer. Now for its part, the defense argued that O'Keeffe had been beaten up inside the house and Reed was being framed for his death. Reed has pleaded not guilty. Her first trial ended after nine weeks without a verdict. I'm declaring a mistrial in this case.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
In the years since, Karen Reid's case has never been far from the headlines as attorneys have continued to battle it out in pretrial hearings and Reid herself has spoken out. This week, a jury was finally selected for the retrial. With opening statements set for next Tuesday, Dateline producer Sue Simpson joins us again to bring us the very latest on what to expect this time around.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Sue, there is so much to watch here. Thanks so much for joining us to break it all down. Yeah. Hi, Blaine. Hi. Hi. Okay, so let's get into it. On Tuesday, we finally got a jury. That is big.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Okay. So in the initial trial, a lot of our listeners will remember that jury selection happened in the first week. This time around, it took double that time. So why did it take longer this time around?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Interesting. So that longer process, that's just one of several differences between the first trial and the second as it's playing out. Another big difference is what's happening outside the courtroom.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Plus, we're joined by author and investigative journalist Lisa Olson to talk about her new book on one of the deadliest serial killers in American history and the scientist who helped return his victims to their families. She took the police report home, she read it late at night, and she noticed names of kids who had been forgotten.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
There was also some news this week from the prosecution about their strategy for this retrial. They filed a notice saying that they intend to introduce statements that Karen's made outside of court.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
So one thing we are expecting to look pretty similar in the second trial is the witness list. And there's one name in particular that people, of course, are very curious about. Michael Proctor. A lot of our listeners will remember that name. Just remind us who he is. And do we expect to see him take the stand this time?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
And after the jury was selected on Tuesday, speaking of who may testify, Karen Reed herself was asked if she planned to testify. She said, quote, to be determined. So what do you think? Do you think we'll see her take the stand this time? Million dollar question, maybe a billion dollar question.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
But before all of that, we're heading back to Arizona, where Lori Vallow Daybell's trial for conspiring to murder her fourth husband continues, and so does the drama. For the past week, prosecutors have presented their theory of what happened on the morning of July 11th, 2019, when Lori Vallow Daybell's fourth husband, Charles Vallow, was shot and killed by her brother, Alex Cox.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
So we'll have to see. Interesting. So opening statements scheduled to begin in this case this coming Tuesday. One last thing that will be different this time around, getting into the courts. So last time, for the longtime listeners of our podcast, they'll remember that you were faithfully sitting in line with your soccer chair very, very early in the morning.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Our producers are catching up on breaking crime news around the country.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
That's what the people need. We need the Sue Simpson soccer chair. Sue Simpson, our intrepid reporter who has been all over this case from the beginning of time. Sue, thank you so much. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. Up next, verdicts are in on two separate murder trials that we've been following. Two female defendants, both accused of murdering their husbands. Will either of them walk free?
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Plus, author Lisa Olson is here to talk about her new book on the man she calls the worst serial killer you've never heard of and the scientist who's working to bring closure to the families of his victims. Welcome back. Joining me for this week's roundup is Dateline booking producer Rachel White. Hi, Rachel. Hi, Blayne. How are you? So good to talk with you. It's great to be here.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Lori Vallow Daybell's phone calls. Karen Read's retrial set to start. And Houston's "lost boys".
Okay, so let's dive in. Let's start with two verdicts that came back last week in trials that we've been following pretty closely here on the podcast. First up, the murder trial of Monica Simantelli, the wife of Hollywood hairstylist Fabio Simantelli. Rachel, just real quickly, remind us about that case.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Verdicts in both the Delphi murders trial and the case of a murdered Minnesota mom. Plus 20 years on, Keith Morrison talks about Scott Peterson.
So glad to be here.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Verdicts in both the Delphi murders trial and the case of a murdered Minnesota mom. Plus 20 years on, Keith Morrison talks about Scott Peterson.
This is huge. Although, remember, Suzanne's body has still not been found. So right now, his total bond is set at $5 million. And his attorney has previously said that he does intend to plead not guilty to all charges.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Verdicts in both the Delphi murders trial and the case of a murdered Minnesota mom. Plus 20 years on, Keith Morrison talks about Scott Peterson.
So there's so much that we don't know about this, Andrea. First, the arrest affidavit was originally sealed by the judge for 30 days, but it has since been obtained by our affiliate, WOAI, and it does include an alleged timeline of events and new details like...
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Verdicts in both the Delphi murders trial and the case of a murdered Minnesota mom. Plus 20 years on, Keith Morrison talks about Scott Peterson.
cameras showing at least two trash bags and a large ice chest in the back of Brad's truck, along with a, quote, a large item wrapped in a blue tarp with a firewood rack placed on top of it. We also know that investigators are now searching an area that's near the property in Bandera, Texas. That's where Brad reportedly went after Suzanne disappeared.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Verdicts in both the Delphi murders trial and the case of a murdered Minnesota mom. Plus 20 years on, Keith Morrison talks about Scott Peterson.
We heard from her on Instagram, Chandler Simpson. She's the 20-year-old daughter of Brad and Suzanne. And she called Suzanne, quote, a victim of abuse from my father and added, my father took my mother's life in a state of rage and control. Wow.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Verdicts in both the Delphi murders trial and the case of a murdered Minnesota mom. Plus 20 years on, Keith Morrison talks about Scott Peterson.
So this really centers around the death penalty and whether the death penalty can be used in this case. Now, of course, as we know, Kohlberger has pleaded not guilty. The trial has yet to get underway. But at this hearing, the defense argued that the trial should not allow the death penalty as a punishment should he be found guilty in this case.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Verdicts in both the Delphi murders trial and the case of a murdered Minnesota mom. Plus 20 years on, Keith Morrison talks about Scott Peterson.
Well, basically, they focused on some ongoing issues with the death penalty in the state of Idaho. Idaho has had real trouble obtaining the drugs used to perform lethal injection, and they've not used the death penalty since 2012, so more than a decade.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Verdicts in both the Delphi murders trial and the case of a murdered Minnesota mom. Plus 20 years on, Keith Morrison talks about Scott Peterson.
Well, they pushed back. They said that lethal injection is currently available in Idaho and that its availability should not determine the outcome of whether the death penalty is on the table or not in this case.
Dateline: True Crime Weekly
Verdicts in both the Delphi murders trial and the case of a murdered Minnesota mom. Plus 20 years on, Keith Morrison talks about Scott Peterson.
You're so welcome, Andrea.