BackTable Urology
Ep. 213 Dual Physician Households: Managing Parenthood and Careers with Dr. Katie Amin and Dr. Petar Bajic
Tue, 04 Feb 2025
Are you married to a physician? How do you balance demanding work, busy home life, and conflicting career ambitions as a dual physician couple? In collaboration with the Society of Women in Urology (SWIU), this episode of the BackTable Urology Podcast provides unique perspectives on how physician couples can live an integrated work-life, featuring Dr. Katie Amin and Dr. Peter Bajic, hosted by Dr. Helen Bernie. --- This podcast is supported by: Boston Scientific UroAdvance http://bostonscientific.com/uroadvance --- SYNPOSIS The doctors discuss key pillars to success as a physician couple, including flexibility, effective communication, and building a village of support. The conversation offers personal insights and strategies into managing childcare, household chores, and ensuring career fulfillment for both partners. The episode also emphasizes the need for further advocacy in the workplace, including parental leave policies. --- TIMESTAMPS 00:00 - Introduction 02:09 - Life as a Dual Physician Couple 04:31 - Career Decisions and Relocation Challenges 06:34 - Financial Discussions 13:24 - Parental Leave and Childcare 19:59 - Early Morning Routine and Nannies 27:33 - Household Chores and Outsourcing 34:47 - Work-Life Balance and Integration 42:18 - Final Thoughts --- RESOURCES Boston Scientific https://www.bostonscientific.com/en-US/medical-specialties/urology/products.html Society of Women in Urology https://swiu.org/home.aspx
This week on The Backtable Podcast.
The main take home messages is that it ain't easy and there's not going to be this one size fits all. You really need to be flexible. You need to find what do you love, what matters most to you and where does your time need to go and really build your life around that. You know, we got to ask lots of questions and communicate with your partner. Communicate with your partner often. Touch base.
Still make that time for each other. And really build your own village. Outsource. Ask for help where you need it. And don't give up because it does get easier. And as you all mentioned, there's seasons and there's always summer after winter. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Backtable podcast, your source for all things urology.
You can find all previous episodes of our podcast on iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, and on backtable.com.
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Now, back to the show.
I'm your host, Dr. Helen Burney from Indiana University. Welcome to this Backtable SWOO episode, where I'm very excited to introduce our guests today, two rising stars in our field, Dr. Katie Amin from the Desai Sethi Urological Institute at the University of Miami, and Dr. Peter Byich from the Cleveland Clinic Department of Urology. How's it going, guys? I'm good. I'm good.
Thank you so much for having us, Helen. I am so excited to have both of you because I know both of you outside of work as well, and y'all are two of my great friends. And so on today's episode of Backtable Urology, we're diving into a topic that resonates deeply with many of us in this field, which is navigating life as a dual physician couple.
And we're actually going to explore the unique challenges and rewards of being part of a dual physician couple. Because let's face it, medicine is demanding, it's rewarding, and oftentimes it's all-consuming.
And when both partners are physicians, the dynamics can be incredibly complex, from either long hours, from call schedules, career advancement, to even raising families or maintaining your personal time. The balance is really challenging, but it's not impossible.
So we're going to go into the strategies, the struggles, and successes that come with balancing two demanding careers while building a life together. So whether you're currently in a dual physician relationship, like we all are, or you're thinking about entering one, or maybe you're just curious about how this beautiful chaos works, this conversation is for you. Let's get started, everyone.
So this introduction is going to be a little different. Instead of all of the accolades and where we are, I'm going to talk about that I'm married to another urologist, and he's at Indiana University with me. And we've actually been married, it'll be 10 years this year, and we have three little boys. So we have an eight-year-old, a six-year-old, and a four-year-old.
Katie, tell me about your family.
So I am married to a gastroenterologist. He's interventional GI. He does ERCPs and EOSs, and He's kind of like the interventional radiology of gastroenterology. So he does a lot of procedures. He has a half day of clinic once a month. So he's mostly kind of in the operating room, I guess you would say. And so we've been together for 15 years. We've been married for nine years.
And we have a five-year-old daughter and a four-year-old boy. Oh, Peter, what about you guys?
So my wife is an ophthalmologist also at Cleveland Clinic. She focuses primarily on cataract surgery and cosmetics. And we have a two year old girl or sorry, a three year old girl and a one year old girl.
Oh, that's so cute. So clearly there's a lot going on in both of y'all's households and very, very busy. So I'm going to start with, let's go back to when it was just the two of you, either before or right after the marriage bliss.
Did any of you have discussions kind of about like financials or are you going to be on the same page about your lifestyle habits, where you're going to work, things like that?
Yeah, I can take this. So, I mean, my husband's from Vancouver, Canada, and I'm from Buffalo, New York. So we're from very different places in the country, in the world, and our families are in very different locations as well. And, you know, and that being said, so location wise, we weren't really tied to one place or the other.
But Sunil, my husband's name is Sunil, and his parents really always wanted us to move back to Canada. So when we were first dating and when we Got married. The plan was for us to both move back to Canada. So we both took our Canadian boards. So I'm Canadian board certified. Flew to Ottawa, took my boards. It was a written portion and then also an oral exam in Ottawa.
And so I was really proud of that, really excited. I did my fellowship in Seattle because we wanted to try out the Pacific Northwest after we met in New York City. We moved out to Seattle to try this location and, you know, develop contacts to move to Canada. That was always the plan.
And you might want to ask, oh, you ended up in Miami, probably the furthest location that you could possibly be compared to Vancouver, Canada. But, you know, we tried it out. I'm so glad that we did. And also the Canadian systems, you know, we just learned that the Canadian systems are very different actually for both of what we do or both of our specialties.
So urology is very different in British Columbia with like, you know, access to robots and things. The billing system and, you know, just how busy you can be because, you know, there's only so many cases that can go and can be billed to the government. So there's all those little nuances. And then for gastroenterology, there's different nuances as well.
So then we kind of were looking around and ended up in Miami. So, you know, the location thing you never know. And I think I don't have any of the answers. And you kind of have to roll with the punches, too. Because sometimes you have a plan and that plan doesn't always work out. And then to your second point about finances. So my husband doesn't have any loans, never had any loans.
He comes from an Indian family that, you know, basically they would do anything, you know, they would live in a shack and then to make sure that their kids never had loans. but I have a lot. And so that was always one thing or the other. But I think you have those frank conversations with your partner and nothing is going to be perfect.
You're never going to match and be the same when you're going and talking about those tough conversations, I think. And that's if someone's in medicine or not in medicine. Now you bring up a really great point. Peter, what about you guys?
So we actually met when I was an intern at In Chicago at Loyola. And she was a fourth year med student there. We had a mutual friend that connected us. So we've been married now for almost nine years. But actually, because she was ophthalmology, she finished her residency. I started residency first and then she finished med school, started residency, finished residency.
Got a job, worked for a couple of years, and I was like still in residency because urology. So she was actually working for a couple of years. I was going to do general urology, private practice with a focus in men's health. That was what I wanted to do. And it wasn't until my research year, which for us was late. It was a PGY-5 that I kind of got like really excited about. research.
And I was like, you know what? I want to do academics. I want to teach. I want to do research. And then one of my mentors was like, if you want to do men's health, you should probably do a fellowship. So one more year in Chicago for a fellowship. And then ultimately I got this great job at Cleveland Clinic. And so that kind of brought us back to Cleveland. My wife was from Chicago.
So really, it did kind of like uproot her from her job. And we thankfully were able to secure a great job for her here. So that was kind of the story about how we got from meeting to where we are now. It was definitely some tough decisions.
She had never lived anywhere but Chicago before, but we both kind of agreed that at that phase of our career to have an opportunity to be in a really prestigious institution and have a lot of opportunity. One of my mentors once told me that fish always grow to the size of the tank. So get yourself in as big of a tank as possible and seize the opportunities that you have.
And it really, I think, paid dividends for both of us. So That was kind of the story about that as far as finances and stuff. I mean, I would say in our relationship, like we definitely both try to gravitate or actually, you know, go towards some of the tasks and responsibilities that we have based on like what our strengths are. Like I would say I'm probably more of like the.
finance money guy so i try to just kind of like manage as much of that as possible and obviously loop her in as much as i can but you know i try to be a little bit more in charge of that stuff and she's got other things that she takes the lead on so i think it's really important to find that balance and and find ways to support each other so there's not like too much being disproportionately dumped on one partner
No, you bring up a good point. You know, I think urology is such a small world. I, I met my husband at a urology residency interview dinner. So we were, we were actually in Chicago as well. And, uh, we both met and just hit it off and like the rest was history. And we ended up doing six years long distance while we were in residency together. We both were in six year programs.
He was at Cornell and I was at the We got married my fourth year of residency, and we had our first kid our chief year while we were still apart. So when we were actually thinking about jobs and next steps, we were already married and a family, and we weren't even living together yet. So we were trying to think, where are we going to go? What kind of a job do we want?
And as we started interviewing different places, you're looking at contracts, and you're thinking of things that are really important to you and as a couple. Were there specific things that you guys thought about as a couple when y'all were selecting jobs?
like specifically things that maybe other dual physician couples should think about as special considerations when you're doing contract negotiation or other things like that? Or was it really just kind of finding that right fit for you guys?
Yeah, I think for us, I mean, we were, we both wanted to be in academics. So that's always a challenge you kind of have to think about. That's, I think the first thing that you need to think about is, you know, are we looking at big institutions or private practice where you could look at small groups or large lug pug groups and things like that. So kind of hone in on that. For us,
I mean, while we are looking at different places, actually, we interviewed in New York, Miami, California. So we did we did interview broadly and didn't really tie. We didn't have ties with family because our family is very spread out to begin with. But what was important for us is just the advancements that we could have at the institution and the opportunity at the institution.
So University of Miami is fantastic. The opportunities are tremendous here. It's just such a growing institute right now. And just really the momentum is amazing here. So that's what we were promised and they absolutely delivered for that. So I think that's what we're looking at.
With just the opportunity for growth for both of us, because sometimes there's a strong department, like if your husband, if you're assuming your other is not in the same department, maybe one department is a little bit stronger than the other. Your partner can kind of feel that if they get the short of the stick. So that's important to think about as well.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's really hard to find the right fit or even to know what the thing is that you're looking for when you're first getting started. I think that for me, it was kind of finding a leader that I felt like I could really jive with and align with that would support me and was invested.
And also feeling like the group of those I'd be working most closely with are people that I'm going to get along with, because obviously you're going to spend a lot of time with these people. And I think we were really lucky that Cleveland Clinic had great teams and leaders and departments in both of our specialties.
And it was highly convenient that the chair of urology at the time was married to one of the ophthalmologists in the same institution, which is what my wife's obviously specialty is. So that was kind of an easy way, at least to initiate that conversation. You know, their chair was like super supportive. They actually, they didn't have a job or a role and they kind of had like created one for her.
And it was just, I think a great opportunity for her. She was very motivated and, you know, really created a great practice and a niche for herself and her own department. So. Yeah, I think that worked out well for us. It's those kinds of opportunities are rare and I think don't necessarily can't always necessarily find those.
So I think you just have to like communicate very well and figure out like what's the best situation for your family. Another thing that we definitely took into consideration as we were considering other jobs in the area because we knew we wanted to have kids was the parental leave and Cleveland Clinic had just implemented. They were like one of the first that implemented like three months of
Maturity leave one month for the other parents. So I think honestly, like for us, I don't know how we would have done it without that. We're blessed to have our parents nearby, but still it was very important for us to have that time with not only with our kids, but also to support one another early on and, you know, having kids and everything. It's just a lot.
Everybody has different things that are priorities and that they value and are important and what you look for in your first job may not be what you need down the road several years later, but we were very lucky and I feel very blessed for that.
To go to piggyback off of this for the paternity leave. So because this is a school podcast, I just want to put this out there that the leave policy can change. You just have to ask and you have to advocate for yourself as well. So actually, two things about that is that I had my daughter when I was actually I timed it very nicely. I don't know how I did this, but
She was born July 18th, the July of when I graduated fellowship, right? So like to the day I graduated, then my daughter was born. That worked out really, really well. So my maternity leave was kind of just moving. You know, I moved my five week old daughter from Seattle to Miami, but that was fine. And that being said, my partner came in and she was pregnant.
And so University of Miami had a policy that for paternity leave, you couldn't, you had to be working at University of Miami for, I think, a certain period before you could receive paternity leave paid. And that was changed even like what she was pregnant and she had signed on, you know, and started. And just because she asked and she actually went to faculty council and and everything.
And so that policy was changed. And that being said, because for dual physician couples, if you do have the same employer, you should ask about both of you getting leave, or maybe sometimes there's a situation that arises where only one person would get that 12 weeks because you have the same employer, and that can come up as well.
So just questions that can arise if you both work for the same employee.
I mean, I think it's like so important to just for those of us that are working at a place that feels so large. And I think it can feel very much like you're just kind of a cog in the wheel. But I do think that this goes back to like having a supportive leader or having a good working relationship with your chair or, you know, leader of your practice or whatever it is.
I think sometimes like even when you feel like you're kind of bound by these, I don't know, unmovable walls that maybe sometimes they're more movable than that you might realize, or that there might be ways around certain things. So definitely just like in a relationship, good communication is so important.
I think like being willing to have those kinds of conversations with sometimes could be difficult with your, with your chair or whoever it is, uh, is so important. And if you don't, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. If you don't,
ask you you may not get so don't don't be scared to bring these things up because you know so many of us in medicine at all levels have families and have been through this stuff so not a sign of weakness to say you know what i really want to take some time off to be with my kid you know i don't want to be regretting this 10 20 years from now
You both bring up such good points, especially about communication. On our last, my third child, when we were in, we were already both attending the Indiana University, the maternity policy was I could take up to 12 weeks and I chose to take 10. And if I could give any advice back to anyone, I would say take the full 12 weeks because you never get that time back.
And, you know, I couldn't do that when I was in residency or fellowship. I took Five weeks off after a C-section when I was in residency. I took six weeks when I was after a C-section in fellowship and had to have a third C-section, good figure, and I took 10 weeks. And if I could do anything different, I would have taken 12 weeks because I think that time is so important.
And Peter, to your point, my husband, our policy was that you could have paternity leave for one month. So Aaron thought, well, I'm going to split it up and I'm going to take one week when you first have the baby and then we'll wait a few weeks so that you get settled because we'll have family over. And then I'll take the other three weeks when they all leave.
And so he goes and takes the first week and then found out that it all had to be consecutive and together. And so he never got to take the three weeks. And that was just a communication, right? We didn't clarify when you looked at the four weeks that it all had to be taken together and all at once. So it's definitely, definitely important to talk about these things. And
clarify them beforehand so that you really can optimize and maximize your time together as a family. But speaking of family, you know, I think, you know, myself and Aaron, we don't have any family where we live here in Indiana. So all of our family are in different states. And so we really had to rely a lot on outside sources for childcare.
Right now, you know, childcare has really been like the bane of our existence for everything with navigating our careers and being where we are. And right now, our current situation is we have a nanny that comes in the morning because Erin and I go to work. And then we have a nanny that comes and gets the kids ready for school.
She makes sure that our two oldest are on the bus to go to kindergarten, second grade. And then she takes the baby to preschool. And then she stays and helps with some house management organization stuff. And then in the evenings, we have two weeknights a week that we have two different babysitters. They're like the same one. One's on a Monday and one's on a Wednesday.
And they help us on those evenings. picking up our kids because those are usually the later days for my husband and I. And our kids have sports or games and practices that they have to go to after school. So like maybe I'll get off work and I'll pick up the oldest and I'll take him to his basketball practice. And then she'll pick up the younger two and get dinner ready for them. And
help us and then when we get home you know then we'll get the bedtime routine ready but it's no joke like trying to organize this chaos of who's getting the kids and where they're going can each of you kind of talk about what's your child care situation like and and who helps you guys with the kiddos
Yeah. So we actually we don't have family in Miami either. So we pay a lot for help. So we just show all the money. But I mean, you have to. So, you know, we are just like you. We both do procedures. So we both have to be up and out the door pretty early. And also as part of academic for better or worse, we have 7 a.m. meetings quite a bit, too.
So, that being said, our nanny comes at 6.30 in the morning. My kids go to two different schools, so there's two different drop-offs. There's a lot of driving. And, you know, we had... I'm so sad. But we had a unicorn nanny that was amazing. She was with us for four years, and she left a month ago. So we are kind of in the thick of things of having a new person.
And after four years, I mean, that person becomes part of her family. I mean, we would take her on vacation sometimes with us. She traveled with us to Europe, to Vancouver, all sorts of places. But then even the grandparents... get to know the nanny very well. So that was so nice.
And, you know, they really truly do become like family and you want, and you want to treat your nanny like, like family because then they feel, you know, more responsible. They treat your kids like, you know, the, you know, how you would want to treat them, right? So I do think that's important. But then once they know that they're invaluable, they know it. And then they will kind of squeeze you.
But sometimes, you know, you have these conversations, you know, and offline with, you know, you and your spouse, all these conversations, you know, are we paying this nanny too much? You know, she keeps on asking for raises or Miami was getting expensive and her rent was getting higher. And we, you know, you are that person's employer sometimes.
So, I mean, you know, so you have to continue to pay her. I mean, if you're going away on vacation, she still needs that weekly paycheck because she has to pay her bills. So I think that's an important concept to really understand. And it's not worth it to cut corners with that because then you're not going to keep someone for a long time. So for what we do, I mean, we have...
And a nanny right now, and it's kind of changed, but we have a nanny that is willing to do a split shift. So she comes 630 to 930. And then she actually kind of just like watches a little baby twice a week, but it's very flexible in the middle of the day. And then she'll come back. 1.30 to 5 to drive around the kids because we need a driver.
That's the biggest thing because our kids are just in so many activities. Piano, martial arts, swimming, all those activities. And then there's days off. My kids go to two different schools, so they don't have the same schedule. One's at an all-girls Catholic school. The other one's at a preparatory school. So even religious holidays are different. Everything is different.
So we need flexibility as well. So, you know, all those things are so important. And then we have a backup person, you know, you have to have many people. And I also want to, I want to give a plug and a shout out to undergrads. So we have really, you know, there's, we always like, you know, kind of young, energetic nannies.
And so, you know, I think our main nanny has always been young, energetic, has some experience. But that being said, the people that fill in, if they're, if
someone is sick or whatever maybe are you know even for babysitters at you know on Fridays and Saturdays we love our 20 year old undergrads they are amazing and they have so much energy and they kind of come with like fresh ideas games to play with the kids they know all the movies so that's that's my plug I think we we underestimate them that's such a huge important point too
We also had really good luck finding some nannies on some like the Facebook groups in your area where you live. Like we live in Indiana. So there's like an Indiana or different suburbs like Carmel nanny group, things like that, where you can really find some very good nannies.
But boy, is that point taken on when you find a good unicorn nanny, you take care of them and they really become family members. And that's really where most nannies will leave. As they leave, it's not even based on kids because they love your family. They love the kids. They just want to feel valued and they want to feel part of your family too.
And if you do that, you can get really lucky and you can find a really great nanny because we definitely have those too. And we're really fortunate because you're right. They're the ones showing up every day, taking care of your most prized possessions, your children, making sure that you can do the things that you do so that you can go to work and that everyone's taken care of and dressed and
lunch boxes are ready and their computers are in their bags for school and that everything's ready to go. So such a good point. Peter, what do you guys do for childcare?
So I feel super blessed and spoiled to say that we have double grandmas in town. So I grew up in Cleveland. So my folks were super excited to have us back. And then when our first daughter was born, In 2021, my mother-in-law actually moved because she didn't really, everybody in her immediate family had moved out of Chicago.
And she said, you know what, I just want to be close to my first grandkids. So that was kind of our childcare at the beginning. And then when we realized that at our parents' age, which our parents are a little bit older, it was difficult. physically a little bit more, I think, demanding than could be handled by them for as many hours as we needed a week, we actually decided to get an au pair.
We had our first au pair from Spain, which was a great experience. You kind of have to have the right living situation for it because obviously they're living with you. Depending on the au pair, some of them can be very involved in your life, which is kind of what we wanted. We wanted to
have that experience and give that visitor to this country, the cultural experience of being part of an American family. So we now are on our second au pair because usually they stay depending on what they want, either one year or two years. Both of our families are originally from the former Yugoslavia, so Serbia, essentially.
And we decided because both of us are pretty relatively bad at speaking our
native language that we wanted to have somebody an au pair from over there to help teach our kids so this year we we had an au pair from montenegro which speaks the same language and um so it's been good i mean that's basically our like regular child care and then our moms kind of fill in the gaps and i have a cousin who has a daughter that's a senior in high school that kind of pinch hits when we're out of town and need an additional person but we've been very lucky that we have a lot of
help in the area. There are certainly certain interesting dynamics that are involved when family is regularly involved in childcare. I think they're much more, much less likely to listen to what we want as parents when they're in volunteers and when they think they know best, which is I think moms in general. But certainly I think the pluses outweigh the minuses.
Maybe they get a little more screen time when Graham was around and things like that, but we manage and, um, I think the au pair program is really interesting. I mean, I think cost effectiveness wise, I think it's really great. I think it's an interesting experience to just get to know somebody from another country. But we've been very lucky.
I think that sometimes you don't really know what you're going to get. And next thing you know, somebody is like living in your house. And I think that can be difficult. But thankfully, like I said, we've been lucky that we've liked both of ours so far. And I think we're going to continue with this for the time being.
I'm so jealous because we tried the au pair route and our au pair wanted to leave a week into her arrival. She just got homesick and wanted to leave. And then we tried a second one and it just was not a good fit. So I'm so jealous because I have so many friends too that also have au pairs that are really wonderful fits.
And they can do like Katie's nanny, they can do the kind of the split shifts too. So they come to work in the morning and then in the afternoon, they're able to enjoy their day or do whatnot. And then come back in the evening. So that's like a really great arrangement. I know that managing kids is so hard, but outside of childcare, it's like, how do you manage the household chores?
Because when you have dual working parents, you know, who's doing the laundry, who's doing the cooking, who's going grocery shopping, who's paying the bills, who's planning vacations or making sure the kids have their costumes for their dress up day at school and all of the other house issues, right? Like getting the HVAC checked on, et cetera. How does that work in your house, Peter?
I mean, I think you really have to outsource what you can within reason. Like probably the best quality of life investment we've made is getting a cleaning lady. I don't know the last time I cleaned a toilet. It's just like little stuff like that, that, you know, when you find a good one and a good person that, you know, works well for what your needs are, I think it's really priceless.
So, you know, there's a lot there to unpack. I think like, depending on what kind of house you have, like we have a very old house, so I have to have a lot of
contractors that manage various things I have my HVAC guy I have my gutters guy and all sorts of different things so I grew up as kind of the mentality of just do it all yourself and you don't need anybody but realistically as you progress in your career your time becomes more valuable and
more valuable to others when they use your time but even more valuable to yourself when you need that time to decompress and spend time with your kids spend time with your partner so you could spend your weekends and evenings doing housework and doing you know various things but um you know you have to figure out what the best mix is for you of like what sorts of things you want to outsource and what sorts of things you actually get joy out of doing yourself i learned the hard way when we
we're in training and wanted to do some renovations around our apartment and redo all of our floors i was just like oh yeah i know how to do it myself i'll just do it myself and i ended up spending like a year just destroying my hands every day and like it was like i think never again you know now with kids in the picture it's like i would rather spend that time like reading up books putting them to bed and not stressing about this so
Yeah. I mean, that's been kind of our approach and certainly very early on. And especially if you have a lot of debt and stuff, it might not be as feasible to outsource everything. But I think if you're selective and figure out what are the things you hate doing the most and hire somebody to do them, then it might free up some time to do some of the things you enjoy that might refill your cup.
That's so important. That's so important. We do the same as far as outsourcing. We have a cleaning lady and Our nanny actually does our laundry. We also order groceries because I could spend an hour plus in a grocery store. And I just I don't want to do that anymore. I'd rather come home and be able to hang out and eat dinner with my kids and kind of spend time like that.
I think Aaron really enjoys vacation planning because he's very particular about where we go and what place we stay in. So he actually does all that fun stuff. And I hate that stuff because I'm so indecisive. I like can't decide which place I want to go to. So Katie, do you guys do anything else?
Yeah, I mean, we outsource, you know, quite a bit. But I just think it's, you know, just putting another thinking cap on is that outsourcing at work is really important, too, because, you know, nurse practitioner changed my life. And having that I have a whole team now, which is so beneficial. I'm not dealing with my Epic in basket late at night or even on vacation.
We talked about going on a two-week vacation and putting your computer away. Not being able to have to open up Epic to check those messages is so invaluable and truly priceless just for the mental energy and the break. We definitely outsource at home, but I think there's really something to be said about having help at work as well and having a good team and good support at work.
That's so true. And I cannot recommend a scribe more or AI now. You can get them so cheap, so worth it.
Get all the help you can. Yes, I have scribe because they pre-chart, which is also so nice. And then, yeah, just getting out the door. I mean, I literally am leaving with the last patient. And so I just try to rush home and get home to start dinner and just to kind of be home for the homework part and all that kind of stuff too.
I think it takes a team. It takes a village to raise kids. It takes a team to be a urologist. It takes a team to be a dad or a mom.
And the other thing is that, so, you know, we talk about, you know, all sorts of aspects of real life, but like exercise is really important to me. So I actually am out the door at 5.30 in the morning every day. I mean, I am not here for the morning at all, but that's why, you know, our nanny, my husband gets up at 6.10.
He has 20 minutes to kind of be with the kid by himself, but our nanny is here by 6.30. But, you know, I just was saying to my husband because he actually, his procedures are more add-on procedures. So he can stay quite late because, you know, a surgical oncologist will call him and say, oh, can you add on a case or whatever?
So we kind of just have this understanding where he kind of deals with the morning. But, you know, then I am there, you know, I'm coming home at a certain time, except on my long OR days, my robotic days or whatever it may be. But I'm there, you know, usually home by 4.30 or 5. So I think that's important. So making sure that everyone gets that.
You have to kind of like figure out that way to compliment one another with respect to your professional duties. Like we've tried to create our schedules in such a way that like we're not having our busiest OR days in the same day. You know, like on her big OR day, that's my admin research day. So I like have a lot of flexibility then.
And on my OR, you know, the night before my OR day, that's her admin time. Yeah. We kind of figured out a way where like we have a little bit more flexibility that we don't have to both be out the door like super, super early each day. So our repair usually starts at seven.
So usually there's one of us that can kind of like linger a little bit if needed because our kids tend to wake up at like the butt crack of dawn every day. That way one can just focus on what they need to do if it's an OR day and the other can kind of like figure out the kids.
What we've done actually, which is kind of funny, and the fact that my admin day is always on Friday. And my husband was like, I want my admin day on Friday. So we used to have the whole, you know, oh, his admin day used to be on Tuesday. That was my robot day, you know, whenever it may be. But then we had our housekeeper. We actually switched our housekeeper's hours.
This is, you know, a person that cleans their toilets and does all that. But she works from 2 to 7 a.m. So she works from 2 to 7 p.m. like cleaning. But then, you know, if someone's not home, she can actually wash the kids, too. And actually, you know, she's kind of can do both. So she cleans house just late afternoon. But then now he switched his admin day to Friday. And it's amazing, you know.
So then I'm not, you know, saying nagging him like, you know, for, you know, keep closest this day, you know, because we're going to go away or whatever, maybe. But so that works out for well for us. Actually, we have the same admin day, which is great.
Katie, we did the same thing. My husband and I just this year matched our Advent days too. And it's really nice because that also allows you to sometimes get that time for yourself or like a date night or date lunch or just that time to connect. That kind of brings me to another really important point when you're dealing with kids, you're dealing with work. How do you get time for yourself?
How do you get time for your own hobbies, your own friends or exercise like you mentioned or having like a date night? And I think for us, like you mentioned, Katie, it was matching our admin days together. And then on one of those two nights, like we have Mondays and Wednesdays is when we have help at night. Sometimes that Wednesday night is like our date night.
And we'll go and sometimes we don't even go anywhere. We just order food to the house. We just go up in our rooms or downstairs in our basement, shut the door. And we just like decompress and talk and just communicate and just connect because it's
It's so important when you're at this stage of your life where we're all career, very busy, and you have little kids that you really want to spend a lot of time with and be with. So it's really hard managing that time.
Yeah, we tried to schedule some childcare for Friday nights, and that's usually our date night. So we've tried to do a good job of that. I actually, so when the kids were, I mean, my kids are still small, but when they were even smaller and they were both napping, which now our older does not nap anymore. That was like my time, our time. So they would go for their nap. I would go to the gym.
That was like my Saturday, Sunday thing. And then when the older one stopped napping. It was kind of like came to a screeching halt. So I'm in denial because I'm somebody who likes historically has liked to sleep. Although as a parent, I've become like a super light, not great sleeper. But I know at some point I just need to like wake up really early and go work out.
But I'm currently in my denial phase and not really doing super great about working out. And I think it's important to just like cut yourself some slack, you know, especially early on in your parenting journey, because it is hard and I'm always like getting upset that like, oh, I don't work out. I need to like get back to my this, get back to my that.
But you just kind of have to like slowly figure it out and support one another. And we try to, when possible, cover each other's backs from the child care aspect on weekends so the other one can go and get a little workout in or do something for themselves. And you just have to be willing to support one another and support.
not prioritize one's needs more than the other and figure out how to give the other person what they need if it's a break or just like an hour away from the kids or once you go do some shopping i'll watch them or whatever
Yeah, we have a code word, my husband and I, when we're both losing our mind with one of the kids. It's just you've had a really long day, you've been with them all night, and when you need to be tagged out. So we have a code word to get tagged out. So if I need him to relieve me or he's really losing it and needs some space. But we do the same thing. We try to balance weekends.
And we actually, even though we have now a little gym in our house, We still pay for a gym membership because the gym we go to provides three hours of child care. So we can like go to the gym, drop the kids off in this awesome kids place where they play rock climb, play in jungle gym.
And we can actually go work out and we can like sit and talk and like have coffee or like just get a lunch real quick. So it's like, again, it's so important about like what's more important, your time, your money, like how you're going to organize that.
I would work out literally every day.
You guys have given so much amazing, helpful advice. I kind of have one question that I think is a really important one because I know that I've been really guilty of this before because my husband, while he's at Indiana University with me, he's a general urologist who's not academic per se.
And so, you know, I do a lot more academic tasks and that requires night meetings and going away for conferences and travel and things like that. But I think it's so important that, you know, Making sure that it's clear that one person's practice is not more important than the other person's. So making sure that each partner feels valued and they feel balanced. How do you guys go about doing that?
Oh, it's tough. I mean, I think biggest aspect of our lives, because we're both pretty in the trenches of academic world and academia. Would be just knowing to their schedule and just communicating, you know, so one night I'll have a work dinner and then the next day I'll have a work dinner. And then if, you know, otherwise we need to get a babysitter, even on a Tuesday sometimes.
And we both travel quite a bit, get talks. We both are program directors of our fellowships. So having a lot of didactics and other commitments as well, both part of societies. So having two people in academics is quite challenging. Sometimes he'll be in a Zoom meeting and I'll be in a Zoom meeting in a different room.
But I just think, you know, having access to each other's calendars and that it goes with, you know, call schedules and all of that to call schedules, travel schedules. You know, dinners, all that. So it's challenging. But and sometimes the ball gets dropped and you just kind of have to roll with the punches, I think.
But and that being said, in terms of whose practice is is busier, you know, not as busy. I mean, everyone has their own seasons to a career in academia. So sometimes you may get tapped a little bit more that year. to give a talk. But that's more, you know, about the sponsorship that you have and, you know, the relationships that you have.
And, you know, one partner may have different sponsorship than the other. But I think that, you know, just the understanding that it's all kind of a roller coaster and it waxes and wanes. And it's kind of like everyone has their own season of life. And so you have to prioritize different things.
I think it's so important that we not only look at ourselves and what we can do to promote our own careers, but how can we help and support our partner to advance themselves? And I think that it's easy to kind of look at...
the competing needs of both careers is kind of like well i did this thing for my partner and they owe this thing for me but like it's it's it's not a competition i think like the better way to approach is just to always look at like how can you support that person and how can you you know help them meet whatever the needs of their career are so i mean that's the approach that i've
taken and i think like thankfully i'm blessed that my wife takes the the same approach so we're always just trying to like figure out just just like katie said we have to be aware of each other's schedules and the needs are and we have kind of our family dry erase calendar and the kitchen that we're always updating and making sure everybody knows like you know are we gonna need the
au pair to work late or we're gonna need grandma to come and help out because we both have something or who's gonna kind of be putting the kids to bed this night so i mean i do think it's it's very much a team effort and there's gonna be times where one is being stretched more thin than the other and you really need to know when you need to provide additional support and there's going to be times where both are being stretched i think that's where you need to rely on your village whether it's your nannies and your babysitters or your au pair your grandma's for us or whatever it is
And I think one of the things that's kind of made it at least a little more fun for us is to try to engage one another and in our respective friend groups for various meetings and professional colleagues. Like next week, I'm going to Hawaii for an ophthalmology meeting with my wife and both of our kids and I'm going to be the child care.
And I know like a lot of her colleagues already and I'm going to go golfing with some ophthalmologists. Yeah. She comes to our meetings and has gotten to know Helen and a lot of our other colleagues in the field. So I think the work-life balance sometimes can be a little bit of a fallacy. I do believe in more of the work-life integration.
You have to kind of be willing to, especially if you're both in medicine and understand that aspect, I think it's going to be a little easier to do so. But just integrating those aspects of your life, it makes it feel a little bit less painful to separate one from the other. And you don't really feel like you're devoting your attention to only one.
This is all so much helpful, amazing, useful information. I feel like we could all sit here and talk for hours about this topic and everything we do. And I think the main take home messages is that it ain't easy and there's not going to be this one size fits all. You know, you really need to be flexible.
You need to find what do you love, what matters most to you and where does your time need to go and really build your life around that. You know, we got to
ask lots of questions and communicate with your partner communicate with your partner often touch base still make that time for each other and really build your own village outsource ask for help where you need it and don't give up because it does get easier and as you all mentioned there's seasons and you know there's always summer after winter so thanks so much for everybody listening and thanks so much katie and peter for being on the podcast today thank you thanks so much for having us this has been really fun
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