Will Saletan
Appearances
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
There were no wars. He said at every campaign stop. I never started a war. He's starting a war with our allies. It's an economic war in which you, Mr. and Mrs. America, are the soldiers because you're going to pay at the grocery store and you're going to pay when you buy appliances and cars. He's starting wars for no reason. He chose these wars.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And it's part of, you know, when I talk about Trump being a fascist or this being a fascist movement, people think, OK, that's extreme language. You know, let's not compare him to the Nazis and stuff like that. And, you know, look, we have we don't have people. in, you know, murder camps at this point. But part of fascism is ethnic demagoguery, ethnic scapegoating.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And that we're seeing lots of that already in the first couple of weeks of this administration. You mentioned Darren Beatty got fired before, you know, being a white supremacist, being friends with white supremacists, preaching that stuff. Yeah. That used to be too politically toxic for Trump. He thinks that's an advantage now. They're selling that now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And Tim, a little bit back to your point about politics. It's still amazing to me that in the 2024 election, Trump got, I believe in the vote cast survey, he got 16% of the black vote and he got 43% of the Latino vote. And a lot of white liberals said, what the hell? I mean, how can you vote for someone who's so overtly bigoted?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And I would like to believe that at some point this will register and those numbers will start to return to recognizing that Donald Trump and his party are enemies of, threats to, insulters of, degraders of minority communities. I mean, this guy has an amazing history.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
His campaign, remember the birtherism, Judge Curiel, a Latino judge, was like Mexican heritage, Kamala Harris being a DEI hire, all that stuff. At some point, this needs to register.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Well, you know, it's not clear to me what role little Marco had in this and whether this is sort of, you assume he had to okay it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
They're okaying anything Trump does at this point, right? And Tim, is this to balance things out? You know, we did appoint a Latino secretary of state, so let's balance it out with an anti-Latino, anti, you know, with a white racist.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Public diplomacy. So here we have not just that we have these bigots in office, but we put them in jobs where they're supposed to represent the United States overseas. So we're going to go to Africa. We're going to go to Asia. We're going to go to Latin America with these people. Here, let's put a bigot in charge of public diplomacy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Let's put Kerry Lake, one of the best known liars, like recidivist liars in our country in charge of the voice of America. There couldn't be a bigger middle finger to the world. And we're basically saying, why should you trust us any more than you would trust the propaganda coming out of regimes in Russia or China?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Well, I don't know. It's a little bit of the tree falls in the forest problem. If you and I are right, objectively, that this is insane and destructive, but the Republicans keep winning elections doing it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
What consolation is there in that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
This happens in other countries. This wasn't supposed to happen here, that a guy gets elected, puts his billionaire friend in charge of the government, gives him special access. I think in Russia, the oligarchs before some of them tangled with Putin had this kind of leverage. Scott Besson and these normies, though, they're no protection.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Because I mean, remember, Scott Besson got that job for one reason, which was that he claimed that that all the stock market increases under Joe Biden were because people expected Donald Trump to be president, right? And that was just, so he flattered his way into the job. He's a totally yes man, right? If Elon's goons, I don't know what to call these guys.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
They may be not carrying cudgels, but they're, you know, they work for Elon. They come in and they say, we want to access to this stuff. Here, sign this piece of paper. Scott Besant, he's not in that job because he's brave. He's a coward like the rest of them. I mean, the entire party is populated with people who do bad things or people who are too weak to stand up to those who do bad things.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And Besant is one of those. So, of course, he's going to sign that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Yeah, I don't even know how to distill this. It's amazing to me that There's a plane crash. Donald Trump steps up to a microphone, says without any evidence that this is, he blames DEI, says that the crash is all about being smart. Now, the obvious explanations were offered to Trump. Well, we have a shortage of air traffic controllers. There was technology. There was a question of that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
He dismissed the obvious explanation. He says, no, it's because we don't have smart enough people. And the reason we don't have smart enough people is because of DEI. And then when pressed for a little more detail, he starts talking about a lawsuit on the part of white applicants who didn't get jobs at FAA that they got discriminated against.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
So basically, the very clear message is this plane crashed because we hired black and brown people at the FAA. Now, this is bullshit. There's no evidence for it. And statistically, the numbers have changed very little in the last several years.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
But if you go into a situation where something bad happened and you say it is the fault of hiring black and brown people, which is the message here, and you have no evidence for that, That is straight up bigotry. And that is the kind of scapegoating that authoritarian fascist regimes do. He didn't say Jews. He didn't even say explicitly that we hired black people and they caused this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
That was his first answer. His first answer was there's this stuff about hiring handicapped people or whatever, disabled people. He switched that and he switched it to white people can't get jobs and that's why we have a shortage, whatever. And then, Tim, it wasn't just Trump. The entire chorus came in. J.D. Vance, Sean Duffy, the new secretary came in.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
They all parroted this line about white people not getting... So it's all part and parcel of what you were discussing earlier of like the South Africa thing, the Darren Beatty thing. This is just like revenge of white, anti-Black, anti-Brown racism. And...
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
It's amazing to me that the reporters and the media coverage of this hasn't been more forceful about, holy cow, the president of the United States is invoking a baseless racial explanation for this terrible thing that happened.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
So, Tim, I did watch it, and I want that hour back. Sorry about that. I owe you one. So, I wasn't so much struck by the issues about reaching out to this and that, you know,
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
group in the rainbow, which obviously in the 2024 campaign hurt them to the extent that voters thought that the Democratic Party, because it cared about transgender people or cared about this or that minority, didn't care about economics. And I don't know how to solve that problem. And I don't want to renounce caring about the issues that affect these groups because they actually matter.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
What really struck me from this forum, Tim, was the chaos. I mean, here we have an authoritarian party on the right. And what do we have on the left? We have a party that looked like, from this forum, it was total anarchy. They couldn't get the attendees to behave themselves and just let the forum continue.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
you know, it's the old Will Rogers line about how it's, you know, not an organized political party. And Ken Martin himself had, you know, his pitch to the crowd was like, the DNC should not be putting a finger on the scale in primaries. The DNC should not be dictating things.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
They asked the candidates, Tim, when one candidate wins the presidential primary, should the DNC become an extension of the presidential campaign, which is normal. That's what happens, right? And like one person raised their hand And they're all looking at each other like because they're afraid. There's like nobody leading the party. Everyone's trying to cater to the audience.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And so if the audience cares about this or that pet issue, that's what happens. You kind of need somebody who will represent what they think the party should stand for, regardless of what the people in the crowd are saying.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Yeah, I don't know about this. First of all, on the perception versus reality thing. Look, look, one, you know, at some point, reality only matters if it intrudes. And, you know, we went through this election where the reality was Trump was an idiot and he was going to do all this damage. And he created a perception that, I mean, you saw the polls. People believed he was a good president.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
But what do you do about the fact that that's bullshit? What do you do about the fact that the OCD level obsession with non-binary, you know, two of this and one of that and three of that. It's absurd.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Right. Okay. That's all ridiculous, but it's niche, right? It's like this. It's not the essence of the party. But Republicans managed to take that wherever it exists and make it look like that's the essence of the party.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Like after COVID, after all that craziness.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Okay, but you've picked out that procedural vote, that 90 seconds or two minutes of Jamie Harrison. Okay, that's stupid. But like, no, in reality, they did talk about a lot of economic issues. It's just that that doesn't get the attention.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Maybe people think it's like exotic, you know, and so it gets more news when they talk about, you know, three non-binary whatever's that have to be on the committee.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
If that's the perception and they keep, you know, that then the Republicans keep getting to implement the crazy policies. I will say I. I do think and I know you and Scott are going to talk about the tariffs, but it is a good thing that very early in this process, among the stupid things that he was going to do and is doing, he's doing one that's going to hurt a lot of people quickly.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I don't think... I mean, if you... Like, you mentioned Faiz Shakir. Like, he was talking about the whole Bernie campaign.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Let me put in a plug for one guy who was at that thing and didn't win. Martin O'Malley, the former governor of Maryland, right? And he was really good. He wasn't going to win, didn't win, but he's a really good spokesman for the party. He's very good at being on message. And his message is about working people and basic material issues that they care about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
But the question that your comments raised for me, Tim, is, do you think that if the Democrats talk at all about transgender, about this and that group in the rainbow, about two of this and three of that, at any point in a two-hour forum, that that is going to void everything they say about economics.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Yeah, Tim, I'd love to believe that. I just haven't seen it yet. And I would put it to you, and you tell me whether I'm wrong, that what you just said about kicking transgender people out of the military, it's better than what Jamie Harrison said.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
But I'm betting you that Trump and his people would just take what you said and make an ad repeating the same message that Democrats, because Democrats care about transgender people, they don't care about you. And it would have the same effect.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And, you know, we'll make it we'll make an impact, I think, on perception. And at that point, you know, the polls start to decline and all that. And Republicans might might pay attention to that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
You are a Denver Nuggets fan. I am. I'm a Houston Rockets fan. So, what we have here is a couple of, not small market, but smaller market fans complaining about, first of all, why the hell the Lakers always get these people, right? Yeah. Why the Lakers don't need this? They've got how many championships in their history, right? It's obscene, right? And this is so dumb, this Luca trade.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I was like, you know, the tariffs might only be the second dumbest thing anybody's done this weekend because the deal in the NBA is, here's how the NBA cap works, people. You can only put five guys on the court, right? If you've got one of those people who like, you can put it in the game in the fourth quarter and just say, win the game for us.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
If you've got one and who has to be guarded by two other people and to be stopped at a You never give that person up, right? If you've got a Luka Doncic, you never give them up and you will trade anybody else to get them because you can replace all the lower level players. You can't replace the James Hardens, the LeBrons, the Doncic's, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Everybody in the league, Denver would have liked to get him. Houston would have liked to get him. Everybody would have liked to get him. Why the hell the Lakers get him is just, it's a moral outrage. It's wrong.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
No, I'd like that's fascinating to me that that Trump managed to bluff his way all the way to the like the day before the tariffs go into effect and then pull the chair. But, you know, I guess that's going to be standard practice for the next four years.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
There's no vacation from Trumpism, Tim. It's just everywhere you go.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I would like to believe that, but I just want to put on the table, the dark theory that I have about all of this, which is maybe, maybe Donald Trump and his MAGA party are, are really bad at governing, but really good at winning elections. I don't think so. Part of how they're really good at doing it is blaming and scapegoating. And we saw that with COVID, right? We saw like this disaster happens.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Trump grossly mismanages. It leads to many more deaths than were necessary. But he talks about the China virus. He blames everybody else. But then he lost. Well, he lost that election, but then he won the next one.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Your pony is that things suck. That's not a pony.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
So the big picture on this to me is, you and I are like trying to have a friendly conversation about this, but this is extremely serious. And what's basically happened is that A crime boss has taken over law enforcement. He's president of the United States. He's taken over the Justice Department. And he's putting his accomplices in charge of the Justice Department, the FBI.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Bandi Patel didn't get Gates, but he's replacing all these other officials. And this is just an extension of the January 6th pardon. So the pardons were... These thugs on Trump's behalf beat up cops to try to overthrow an election. So it's anti-democratic, it's fascist, it's a coup, but it's also an attack on law enforcement by criminals.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
The guy who sent them there then becomes president and he pardons all of the thugs who beat up the cops, right? And then he goes into the FBI and and starts purging anybody. So they've demanded lists of anybody at the agency and anybody in the Justice Department, I believe, like thousands of people who were involved in any of the prosecutions of the criminals who worked for Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
So Trump's got this paramilitary organization, he's put them back on the street, and he's now going after, purging the law enforcement officials who prosecuted them successfully in front of juries, right? They were objectively convicted. It's not clear to me how far this goes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And just to come back to our original question, Tim, it's not clear to me at what point the American public is going to care about this. If Trump is being Mr. Law and Order against immigrants, is the public going to care that he's letting these criminals out and prosecuting the prosecutors?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Now, in the context of violent crime, Trump's pose and the Republican pose is they're the party of law and order. They stand for the cops. They back the blue against the criminals. Now, we've established that's not true because of the January 6th pardons, the purge of the FBI. What's actually going on is Trump's and the Republican Party's distinction is between foreign and domestic, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
We're against foreign lawbreakers. We're against people who entered this country illegally. We're against someone who steals a tube of toothpaste who came from overseas. But domestically, we're happy to pardon the people who committed violent crimes. Let me take this over to your point about Doge, though. So here we have a private organization. So you probably know this better than I do, Tim.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Doge's legal status, right? They're not a government department, right? None of this is authorized by Congress. This is one guy, Donald Trump, having won one election, basically usurping power, right? They're taking over. Congress appropriates, Congress establishes programs. The executive decides, no, you know what? I don't care what the Article Two branch, Article One branch did.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I'm gonna usurp this. I'm gonna end this program, cut off these funds. Not only am I gonna do it, I'm the elected guy. I'm gonna give my buddy, who's not even a government official, right, access. These people coming in from Musk, what authorization do they have? So Trump's basic position is,
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Never mind all of the rules that were established about who has the right to have access to these payment systems, who established these programs. I won this one election and therefore anybody I choose, I can send in to run the government. So it's kind of democracy because he got elected, but it's illiberal democracy and it's anti-rule of law democracy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
It is authoritarianism with one election behind it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Wait, can I pull on your thread there a minute about Hungary? Yeah. Because there's a direct connection here with USAID, right? The Orban regime and the Putin regime hate USAID and they've like spoken out against it and they don't like this whole, you know, what are you guys doing promoting civil society and other, you know, you're interfering in our internal affairs.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
So undermining USAID in particular on Trump's part is part and parcel of his, you know, de facto alliance with the authoritarians of the world, right? Here's this annoying agency.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Yeah, right, right. There's an absolutely direct connection. I mean, USAID basically does, you know, good things liberals like. The whole idea of international development is like something. Trump's isolationism, America first, a lot of it is we're tired of being the good guys. We're tired of like giving things to other people. We're tired of helping other people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
We're just going to focus on helping ourselves. And while we're at it, we're going to dismantle this agency that annoys our authoritarian friends.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
This is where we are, that like the good is bad? Yeah, yeah, that's where we are. Tim, is it schadenfreude or is it that you think that there's something salutary about the pain that will lead to healing?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Yeah, absolutely. So let me just sort of sketch. I know you and Scott are going to do the economics of this. Just want to do the geopolitics at this. There's the NATO threatening to pull out of NATO, which is, you know, I'm abandoning Article 5. I won't defend you. There's the EU. Trump just said twice in the last like three days. He said, am I going to impose tariffs on the European Union?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Absolutely. He said that twice. They also are threatening, of course, Panama and Greenland. Trump said twice in the last two days, we're going to take it back, referring to the Panama Canal. We're going to take it back, okay? Greenland, lots of threats to Greenland. We're picking a war with Denmark, of all things. J.D.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Vance was on TV on Sunday saying that we're going to take more of a territorial interest in Greenland, a territorial interest. Basically, what we have is America first, Trump, Vance means that we are going to target all of our enemies. We're going to pick fights with all of our enemies. Remember, Trump said his whole shtick during the campaign was the other side Democrats are warmongers.