Tracee Ellis Ross

Yeah, well. Well, and they haven't been asked to because I think it's not always a context that if it's an area that you don't have to think into. Right. But I think it is a genuine, regular thought process for me. It's one of the reasons, I mean, we've talked about this, that often I date younger men. And a lot of it is because— Let's stop on that, folks. Oh, my God. We had a great dinner.

Yeah, well. Well, and they haven't been asked to because I think it's not always a context that if it's an area that you don't have to think into. Right. But I think it is a genuine, regular thought process for me. It's one of the reasons, I mean, we've talked about this, that often I date younger men. And a lot of it is because— Let's stop on that, folks. Oh, my God. We had a great dinner.

We had a great dinner, by the way. We're across the table. Your husband goes, but why? And I said, well, maybe because I can. Yes. Parish.

We had a great dinner, by the way. We're across the table. Your husband goes, but why? And I said, well, maybe because I can. Yes. Parish.

It's really fun to share.

It's really fun to share.

But one of the reasons, though, because I had to ask myself that question. I was like, what is this about? Because I want a partner. And so often, and it's not just that I'm older. I'm also very embodied. I am a full, very whole person who knows myself, who is in charge of my life, and who lives a very full, just robust life. So it's not just age.

But one of the reasons, though, because I had to ask myself that question. I was like, what is this about? Because I want a partner. And so often, and it's not just that I'm older. I'm also very embodied. I am a full, very whole person who knows myself, who is in charge of my life, and who lives a very full, just robust life. So it's not just age.

It's like life experience and sort of a difference. But I had to ask myself the question, why? Why does this keep sort of coming up other than they're hot and gorgeous? There's that. There's that. But a lot of men my age are steeped in a toxic masculinity and have been raised in a culture where there is a particular way that a relationship looks.

It's like life experience and sort of a difference. But I had to ask myself the question, why? Why does this keep sort of coming up other than they're hot and gorgeous? There's that. There's that. But a lot of men my age are steeped in a toxic masculinity and have been raised in a culture where there is a particular way that a relationship looks.

And anything that starts to smell of that for me, I did enough of it where I was controlled and felt like I was a possession or whatever those things were or prize or anything. And I just, I have no interest in it and I will not do it again. I'm sorry.

And anything that starts to smell of that for me, I did enough of it where I was controlled and felt like I was a possession or whatever those things were or prize or anything. And I just, I have no interest in it and I will not do it again. I'm sorry.

That's obviously, it's a generalization. But because I have dated men my age, there is a difference. there is an openness that occurs with a younger man around whether it's gender fluidity or not even having an issue with homosexuality. I mean, something as basic as that, that there's times where I'll be sitting across the table from somebody and just like, what did you just say?

That's obviously, it's a generalization. But because I have dated men my age, there is a difference. there is an openness that occurs with a younger man around whether it's gender fluidity or not even having an issue with homosexuality. I mean, something as basic as that, that there's times where I'll be sitting across the table from somebody and just like, what did you just say?

Yeah, like I'm so sorry.

Yeah, like I'm so sorry.

Yeah, for real. Chamber pot.

Yeah, for real. Chamber pot.

Your chamber pot. Like where I'm just like, yeah, this is not a match. And I don't, I have long been past the age where I feel like it's my job to teach somebody or grow them up. That I'm not interested in. So, but it's interesting. I mean, there's so many different philosophies on dating and I have come up with mine.

Your chamber pot. Like where I'm just like, yeah, this is not a match. And I don't, I have long been past the age where I feel like it's my job to teach somebody or grow them up. That I'm not interested in. So, but it's interesting. I mean, there's so many different philosophies on dating and I have come up with mine.

I have come up with what works for me and what makes sense for me and what feels safe for me.

I have come up with what works for me and what makes sense for me and what feels safe for me.

I mean, I'm not on dating apps. I have friends that have great success with dating apps, but that's just not something I'm comfortable with.

I mean, I'm not on dating apps. I have friends that have great success with dating apps, but that's just not something I'm comfortable with.

That's the only way for me. Or someone sets me up, or I meet them at an event. I meet someone. It's usually people that also have a level of recognition that they have as much to lose as me to a certain extent. I don't know. I mean, I haven't had great luck lately, but I do have to say I'm moving up on... what it is that I'm looking for as a match.

That's the only way for me. Or someone sets me up, or I meet them at an event. I meet someone. It's usually people that also have a level of recognition that they have as much to lose as me to a certain extent. I don't know. I mean, I haven't had great luck lately, but I do have to say I'm moving up on... what it is that I'm looking for as a match.

I've had some doozies. Yeah. Yeah.

I've had some doozies. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, it's interesting that whole, I hope that that is starting to dissipate culturally. I hope so. I really do. I think it, social media is perpetuating some of those things in a really big way. But I, you know, I did dream of my wedding growing up. And that's not to say that I didn't dream of the bigness of my life, but I could have spent a lot more time dreaming of my life.

Yeah, it's interesting that whole, I hope that that is starting to dissipate culturally. I hope so. I really do. I think it, social media is perpetuating some of those things in a really big way. But I, you know, I did dream of my wedding growing up. And that's not to say that I didn't dream of the bigness of my life, but I could have spent a lot more time dreaming of my life.

And, you know, as much as grief does surface for me around not having children and not having a partner, I still wouldn't want the wrong partner. That's a great point. At all. I'm not interested in that. You have to make my life better. It can't just be, you know, I'm in a relationship to be in a relationship.

And, you know, as much as grief does surface for me around not having children and not having a partner, I still wouldn't want the wrong partner. That's a great point. At all. I'm not interested in that. You have to make my life better. It can't just be, you know, I'm in a relationship to be in a relationship.

So even though the grief does emerge and that comes and I hold that, I think of what I've done. And I think of, I woke up every morning trying to do my best.

So even though the grief does emerge and that comes and I hold that, I think of what I've done. And I think of, I woke up every morning trying to do my best.

I didn't wake up one morning and be like, I'm going to mess this day up. That's right. So I must be where I'm supposed to be. And I don't know, sometimes I think of all of the things I've done, the courage that I've had to have and what I've had to learn how to navigate as a single person with no one to hide behind. And it's built a really beautiful experience around me.

I didn't wake up one morning and be like, I'm going to mess this day up. That's right. So I must be where I'm supposed to be. And I don't know, sometimes I think of all of the things I've done, the courage that I've had to have and what I've had to learn how to navigate as a single person with no one to hide behind. And it's built a really beautiful experience around me.

And I have incredible friends. You do.

And I have incredible friends. You do.

I'm excited.

I'm excited.

Yeah, I like it.

Yeah, I like it.

Well, yeah, I thought that was so interesting what you said. When you asked Craig that question, I thought, I think it's timing.

Well, yeah, I thought that was so interesting what you said. When you asked Craig that question, I thought, I think it's timing.

That when a guy feels they're ready, then who's in front of you? They just kick. Right.

That when a guy feels they're ready, then who's in front of you? They just kick. Right.

And then it takes your second marriage to figure out you need to be discerning.

And then it takes your second marriage to figure out you need to be discerning.

It's fascinating.

It's fascinating.

I think that is really, I thought that was really helpful for other people to hear. The other thing I'm curious is, is that cultural that meant it's timing? Or is it, I don't know, it's just nature or nurture?

I think that is really, I thought that was really helpful for other people to hear. The other thing I'm curious is, is that cultural that meant it's timing? Or is it, I don't know, it's just nature or nurture?

Well, now for my generation. I don't even know my generation. For me.

Well, now for my generation. I don't even know my generation. For me.

Oh, terrible. Yeah, yeah. Heartbreaking.

Oh, terrible. Yeah, yeah. Heartbreaking.

Oh, no, I don't like this.

Oh, no, I don't like this.

Yeah, that's hard. That's very hard.

Yeah, that's hard. That's very hard.

I just think culturally, that is what we say.

I just think culturally, that is what we say.

Well, I think obviously there's all different kinds of people. There's all different kinds. I mean, and you know, then we are not even entering into the gender fluidity within this conversation. That is so much a part of what the younger generation is making sense of. And I think they're actually doing that really beautifully. I do too.

Well, I think obviously there's all different kinds of people. There's all different kinds. I mean, and you know, then we are not even entering into the gender fluidity within this conversation. That is so much a part of what the younger generation is making sense of. And I think they're actually doing that really beautifully. I do too.

And I've learned so much from the gender conversation and how it's expanded. I've learned so much about myself and what are the expectations that I didn't know were expectations about being a woman that I'm like, oh, I don't need to own that because I just thought that was a given, but now I know it's not. But I think the societal norm, yes.

And I've learned so much from the gender conversation and how it's expanded. I've learned so much about myself and what are the expectations that I didn't know were expectations about being a woman that I'm like, oh, I don't need to own that because I just thought that was a given, but now I know it's not. But I think the societal norm, yes.

I mean, I had a guy say to me recently, yeah, you can't make a man do anything he doesn't want to do. But culturally, you can make a woman do a lot of things she doesn't want to do because we're trained culturally to acquiesce in that way, that that's our role, that we are... But I mean, this guy Ronan, I love the question because...

I mean, I had a guy say to me recently, yeah, you can't make a man do anything he doesn't want to do. But culturally, you can make a woman do a lot of things she doesn't want to do because we're trained culturally to acquiesce in that way, that that's our role, that we are... But I mean, this guy Ronan, I love the question because...

First of all, what I'll say to Ronan is no one knows you better than you.

First of all, what I'll say to Ronan is no one knows you better than you.

And your friends can have all the suggestions in the world. And some of them might be helpful ones. And some of them might be ones you want to consider. And then I think the thing that you have to do is ask yourself, does that feel right for me? Does that really feel like what's going to get the growth to happen?

And your friends can have all the suggestions in the world. And some of them might be helpful ones. And some of them might be ones you want to consider. And then I think the thing that you have to do is ask yourself, does that feel right for me? Does that really feel like what's going to get the growth to happen?

And sometimes not dating helps people discover that. And sometimes dating is the thing that helps people discover that. Yeah.

And sometimes not dating helps people discover that. And sometimes dating is the thing that helps people discover that. Yeah.

Yeah, I do see a lot more of it. I see a lot of it online and I really celebrated. I think it's beautiful to see men have these deeper conversations about who they are and what they want. But the norm is no. And then the other thing to me is the invitation, right? It's like, yes, that's the cultural norm, but the invitation is really to remind everyone, men and women,

Yeah, I do see a lot more of it. I see a lot of it online and I really celebrated. I think it's beautiful to see men have these deeper conversations about who they are and what they want. But the norm is no. And then the other thing to me is the invitation, right? It's like, yes, that's the cultural norm, but the invitation is really to remind everyone, men and women,

to take into account who they are and what is important to you. You know, is somebody's height the most important thing to you and why? Why? Is it because of what other people see or is it because of you? You know what I mean? Like, what is it? And I think those reflective questions not only help you in dating, they just help you in life.

to take into account who they are and what is important to you. You know, is somebody's height the most important thing to you and why? Why? Is it because of what other people see or is it because of you? You know what I mean? Like, what is it? And I think those reflective questions not only help you in dating, they just help you in life.

Yes, some people that engages their chemistry.

Yes, some people that engages their chemistry.

And I have no judgment, really. Like, there's things for people. Everybody has different values around those things and what's important. Some people don't want deep conversation. Yeah, yeah. Some people, that is not their thing. It feels invasive. It feels uncomfortable. Some people do, you know. I also think for Ronan…

And I have no judgment, really. Like, there's things for people. Everybody has different values around those things and what's important. Some people don't want deep conversation. Yeah, yeah. Some people, that is not their thing. It feels invasive. It feels uncomfortable. Some people do, you know. I also think for Ronan…

I have come to really know that there's a big difference in somebody that I am looking at dating as a partner and somebody that's somebody to enjoy and take what I like and leave the rest. And I learned as I've gotten older, like chemistry is not a relationship. Ooh, say that again. Chemistry is not a relationship. And love does not always include chemistry. Yes. And I'm somebody who wants both.

I have come to really know that there's a big difference in somebody that I am looking at dating as a partner and somebody that's somebody to enjoy and take what I like and leave the rest. And I learned as I've gotten older, like chemistry is not a relationship. Ooh, say that again. Chemistry is not a relationship. And love does not always include chemistry. Yes. And I'm somebody who wants both.

Mm-hmm. Now, everybody's not like that. Some people really don't want sort of the passionate chemistry of intimate physical energy. That's not their thing. And you don't want to be in a relationship with somebody who that's one of the ways they communicate love. Like, for example, I have male friends. I have

Mm-hmm. Now, everybody's not like that. Some people really don't want sort of the passionate chemistry of intimate physical energy. That's not their thing. And you don't want to be in a relationship with somebody who that's one of the ways they communicate love. Like, for example, I have male friends. I have

One that we literally text and it's not flirting and it's all clothes and fashion and shopping. And it's like a version of a relationship. He's the sexiest little thing. He's young. There's never been anything physical. But we have this amazing exchange that happens all the time.

One that we literally text and it's not flirting and it's all clothes and fashion and shopping. And it's like a version of a relationship. He's the sexiest little thing. He's young. There's never been anything physical. But we have this amazing exchange that happens all the time.

No.

No.

But that's fun, right?

But that's fun, right?

And I'm single. Then I have a friend I go to the movies with. You know what I mean? And then there's people that... And obviously, if I end up in a relationship with someone, those probably will not continue. Those different things. But my friendships will continue because you also can't expect your partner to be everything.

And I'm single. Then I have a friend I go to the movies with. You know what I mean? And then there's people that... And obviously, if I end up in a relationship with someone, those probably will not continue. Those different things. But my friendships will continue because you also can't expect your partner to be everything.

He's having no problems dating.

He's having no problems dating.

The other big thing I'm going to say, look, I'm 52. Mm-hmm.

The other big thing I'm going to say, look, I'm 52. Mm-hmm.

I might not meet a partner. Yeah. Okay. I'm saying, like, I know there's this assumption, right? And the assumption is if you don't, there's something wrong with you. I don't agree.

I might not meet a partner. Yeah. Okay. I'm saying, like, I know there's this assumption, right? And the assumption is if you don't, there's something wrong with you. I don't agree.

Like, I'm just like, no, I don't. That's, no. I'm a great match and a great catch and all those things, but I also am going to wait for the right person. So to Ronan, I would say, let yourself own the fact that you want a relationship. And you are going to do all the things you know how to do to walk towards that. And if you don't find the right person, it's not a reflection of you.

Like, I'm just like, no, I don't. That's, no. I'm a great match and a great catch and all those things, but I also am going to wait for the right person. So to Ronan, I would say, let yourself own the fact that you want a relationship. And you are going to do all the things you know how to do to walk towards that. And if you don't find the right person, it's not a reflection of you.

If you're doing all the right things, you know what I mean? I think that's the first thing I would say to Rona. The second thing is, ask yourself the question, is dating helping you get towards what you want? Or is it actually distracting you because there's enough drama that you're not having the courage to say, this is what I want.

If you're doing all the right things, you know what I mean? I think that's the first thing I would say to Rona. The second thing is, ask yourself the question, is dating helping you get towards what you want? Or is it actually distracting you because there's enough drama that you're not having the courage to say, this is what I want.

I had a friend who was dating recently and the guy is out of a divorce and there's just some stuff going on and they really like each other, but he's kind of in a hallway. And she said, which I thought was the most courageous and beautiful thing, why don't you call me when you're out of the hallway?

I had a friend who was dating recently and the guy is out of a divorce and there's just some stuff going on and they really like each other, but he's kind of in a hallway. And she said, which I thought was the most courageous and beautiful thing, why don't you call me when you're out of the hallway?

When you find a room.

When you find a room.

And like, if you still think I'm somebody that could be in that room with you, then give me a call. I mean, I said to someone I was dating recently, like, I've come to realize that you are not a loving match for me as much as I love you.

And like, if you still think I'm somebody that could be in that room with you, then give me a call. I mean, I said to someone I was dating recently, like, I've come to realize that you are not a loving match for me as much as I love you.

I didn't hear from him for a while.

I didn't hear from him for a while.

Yeah, well, he made his bed before when he wasn't showing up the way he should have. I gave him enough tries. And the crazy thing is for me, when it takes a lot for somebody to get inside my heart and feel safe. Once you get in there, it's so hard for me to get you out. And I have to really give myself time.

Yeah, well, he made his bed before when he wasn't showing up the way he should have. I gave him enough tries. And the crazy thing is for me, when it takes a lot for somebody to get inside my heart and feel safe. Once you get in there, it's so hard for me to get you out. And I have to really give myself time.

And that's the other thing I would say to Ronan about him sort of pining around this old relationship. Remember that in memory, you remember the good stuff.

And that's the other thing I would say to Ronan about him sort of pining around this old relationship. Remember that in memory, you remember the good stuff.

So it's not always the full picture. There's a reason that didn't work and you can trust that. And the right relationship, there's nothing you can do to make it stop. Like it will resurface itself if it's meant to be.

So it's not always the full picture. There's a reason that didn't work and you can trust that. And the right relationship, there's nothing you can do to make it stop. Like it will resurface itself if it's meant to be.

Yeah, that's crazy.

Yeah, that's crazy.

Can I just ask what some of the 32 things on the list were?

Can I just ask what some of the 32 things on the list were?

Of the questions?

Of the questions?

I'm so curious.

I'm so curious.

I'm going to throw that at one of the people I'm dating right now.

I'm going to throw that at one of the people I'm dating right now.

Yeah, that's really smart.

Yeah, that's really smart.

Yeah, that was really helpful.

Yeah, that was really helpful.

Well, I think it depends because I don't think we have enough information from Ronan, right? Like when he says distracting, what kind of distracting? So that's why I posed the question back to him of, you have to ask yourself some questions to figure out, is that the right advice for you? Are you learning enough from dating that's actually giving you the right information about yourself?

Well, I think it depends because I don't think we have enough information from Ronan, right? Like when he says distracting, what kind of distracting? So that's why I posed the question back to him of, you have to ask yourself some questions to figure out, is that the right advice for you? Are you learning enough from dating that's actually giving you the right information about yourself?

Or is the dating actually taking you off course?

Or is the dating actually taking you off course?

Because you're getting invested in the drama of things aren't working out or are working out.

Because you're getting invested in the drama of things aren't working out or are working out.

Yeah. Thoughtful from an internal compass is my thing. I always ask myself when I leave any situation, date included, how do I feel after?

Yeah. Thoughtful from an internal compass is my thing. I always ask myself when I leave any situation, date included, how do I feel after?

Do I feel, because sometimes you can think it's really nice in that moment and you leave and I was like, wait, why do I feel small?

Do I feel, because sometimes you can think it's really nice in that moment and you leave and I was like, wait, why do I feel small?

Why do I feel more insecure? Or do you feel good about yourself? Another question I do like to ask people is how do you argue? Oh, that's a good one. Yeah.

Why do I feel more insecure? Or do you feel good about yourself? Another question I do like to ask people is how do you argue? Oh, that's a good one. Yeah.

You know, because like my siblings, we all, there's a way that my family argues that I'm comfortable with. And I've been, because I get loud and then it's done. Like I'm so straightforward. I'm not somebody who's going to like hold it. Like I'm going to say it. For some people, that's terrifying. Yes. It's terrifying and sort of sends them into another place.

You know, because like my siblings, we all, there's a way that my family argues that I'm comfortable with. And I've been, because I get loud and then it's done. Like I'm so straightforward. I'm not somebody who's going to like hold it. Like I'm going to say it. For some people, that's terrifying. Yes. It's terrifying and sort of sends them into another place.

So those are, I just think all those kinds of questions and asking them both of the other person and of yourself.

So those are, I just think all those kinds of questions and asking them both of the other person and of yourself.

when it's hard, you know? Well, I mean, you know, social media has made a myth of so many things because life requires you to show up. That's right. And if you want anything out of it, it's going to be work, you know, and relationships included. Someone told me this great just metaphor of imagine that the people you're closest to, you're going to step on each other's toes.

when it's hard, you know? Well, I mean, you know, social media has made a myth of so many things because life requires you to show up. That's right. And if you want anything out of it, it's going to be work, you know, and relationships included. Someone told me this great just metaphor of imagine that the people you're closest to, you're going to step on each other's toes.

And so how do you work out the stepping on toes? Do you just blame them? That's right. Or do you figure out how to not step on each other's toes? Or is that just the nature of what a relationship brings? And then how do you work those things through and work those things out?

And so how do you work out the stepping on toes? Do you just blame them? That's right. Or do you figure out how to not step on each other's toes? Or is that just the nature of what a relationship brings? And then how do you work those things through and work those things out?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Or you're going to try and date yourself, which you don't want to do.

Or you're going to try and date yourself, which you don't want to do.

Do you as the man in your relationship, since we've been talking about it from our perspective, do you feel that you have continued to grow in your current marriage and that it asks that of you?

Do you as the man in your relationship, since we've been talking about it from our perspective, do you feel that you have continued to grow in your current marriage and that it asks that of you?

And that's what I... That's a really nice thing to say. Like, I've gotten better at being in a relationship.

And that's what I... That's a really nice thing to say. Like, I've gotten better at being in a relationship.

Chemistry and love, yeah.

Chemistry and love, yeah.

What's important to him in a relationship.

What's important to him in a relationship.

And can I reframe that?

And can I reframe that?

So let's just call it the work because it's not extra work. That's just the work it takes.

So let's just call it the work because it's not extra work. That's just the work it takes.

Yeah, and if there are those things that you are like longing to do with a partner, are there versions of that you can do with yourself? Which is the thing that I have really discovered in my life. I'm like, all right, so how can I do that on my own while still dating? Mm-hmm. Well, Tracy. What a fun conversation. I love you. I love you right back. Yeah.

Yeah, and if there are those things that you are like longing to do with a partner, are there versions of that you can do with yourself? Which is the thing that I have really discovered in my life. I'm like, all right, so how can I do that on my own while still dating? Mm-hmm. Well, Tracy. What a fun conversation. I love you. I love you right back. Yeah.

I'm so good. Like I said, family. I do feel like family. We got family in the house. Really interesting conversation. And I took some notes. Oh. I took notes in my head and I actually wrote them down out there because you said there's a lot you can learn about how, who a guy is or who a person is by how they are on the court. Yes. They let their guard down.

I'm so good. Like I said, family. I do feel like family. We got family in the house. Really interesting conversation. And I took some notes. Oh. I took notes in my head and I actually wrote them down out there because you said there's a lot you can learn about how, who a guy is or who a person is by how they are on the court. Yes. They let their guard down.

I think I could have used that information.

I think I could have used that information.

I think I'm a little late on adding that to my list of how to figure out if he's a match. There's still time. Noted now. There's still time because I'm still single. So noted now. You know, there's still time.

I think I'm a little late on adding that to my list of how to figure out if he's a match. There's still time. Noted now. There's still time because I'm still single. So noted now. You know, there's still time.

It's always good. Well, the thing is, I stay open. I'm probably more open. Way open. Oh, my God. That sounded so wrong.

It's always good. Well, the thing is, I stay open. I'm probably more open. Way open. Oh, my God. That sounded so wrong.

Mom. My heart. Your family. My heart stays open.

Mom. My heart. Your family. My heart stays open.

That was hard. Good correction. More open than it should be. But I do date. And it's a fascinating adventure out there. You know? Mostly, though, I think there's really good men out there. I think to a certain extent... I'm a very unique sort of unicorn of a woman. And so it's going to take a unique person.

That was hard. Good correction. More open than it should be. But I do date. And it's a fascinating adventure out there. You know? Mostly, though, I think there's really good men out there. I think to a certain extent... I'm a very unique sort of unicorn of a woman. And so it's going to take a unique person.

And in the meantime, I have really learned how to live my life and enjoy it and not sit around waiting. I come, you know, I was saying to someone recently that I'm one of the first generations of choice and it's not anymore, which really there was a window and that has shifted. And I do think that that's going to change dating for women so much.

And in the meantime, I have really learned how to live my life and enjoy it and not sit around waiting. I come, you know, I was saying to someone recently that I'm one of the first generations of choice and it's not anymore, which really there was a window and that has shifted. And I do think that that's going to change dating for women so much.

When you mean you've been the sort of the product of choice? Yeah, like the assumption of Roe v. Wade and the ability for a woman to find her own delight and pleasure and choice around how she navigates dating or how one would navigate dating. And we're in a different world now. And I'm curious what that will look like. It frightens me for younger girls because of many reasons, obviously. But

When you mean you've been the sort of the product of choice? Yeah, like the assumption of Roe v. Wade and the ability for a woman to find her own delight and pleasure and choice around how she navigates dating or how one would navigate dating. And we're in a different world now. And I'm curious what that will look like. It frightens me for younger girls because of many reasons, obviously. But

Even with the systemic protection of Roe v. Wade, I still was coming up against the cultural norms of being a choiceful woman and owning my own body and my own choices and what it is that I'm looking for in a relationship and the ability to negotiate in a relationship what it is you want the relationship to be between the two of you as opposed to what society says it should be.

Even with the systemic protection of Roe v. Wade, I still was coming up against the cultural norms of being a choiceful woman and owning my own body and my own choices and what it is that I'm looking for in a relationship and the ability to negotiate in a relationship what it is you want the relationship to be between the two of you as opposed to what society says it should be.

Yeah, well. Well, and they haven't been asked to because I think it's not always a context that if it's an area that you don't have to think into. Right. But I think it is a genuine, regular thought process for me. It's one of the reasons, I mean, we've talked about this, that often I date younger men. And a lot of it is because— Let's stop on that, folks. Oh, my God. We had a great dinner.

We had a great dinner, by the way. We're across the table. Your husband goes, but why? And I said, well, maybe because I can. Yes. Parish.

It's really fun to share.

But one of the reasons, though, because I had to ask myself that question. I was like, what is this about? Because I want a partner. And so often, and it's not just that I'm older. I'm also very embodied. I am a full, very whole person who knows myself, who is in charge of my life, and who lives a very full, just robust life. So it's not just age.

It's like life experience and sort of a difference. But I had to ask myself the question, why? Why does this keep sort of coming up other than they're hot and gorgeous? There's that. There's that. But a lot of men my age are steeped in a toxic masculinity and have been raised in a culture where there is a particular way that a relationship looks.

And anything that starts to smell of that for me, I did enough of it where I was controlled and felt like I was a possession or whatever those things were or prize or anything. And I just, I have no interest in it and I will not do it again. I'm sorry.

That's obviously, it's a generalization. But because I have dated men my age, there is a difference. there is an openness that occurs with a younger man around whether it's gender fluidity or not even having an issue with homosexuality. I mean, something as basic as that, that there's times where I'll be sitting across the table from somebody and just like, what did you just say?

Yeah, like I'm so sorry.

Yeah, for real. Chamber pot.

Your chamber pot. Like where I'm just like, yeah, this is not a match. And I don't, I have long been past the age where I feel like it's my job to teach somebody or grow them up. That I'm not interested in. So, but it's interesting. I mean, there's so many different philosophies on dating and I have come up with mine.

I have come up with what works for me and what makes sense for me and what feels safe for me.

I mean, I'm not on dating apps. I have friends that have great success with dating apps, but that's just not something I'm comfortable with.

That's the only way for me. Or someone sets me up, or I meet them at an event. I meet someone. It's usually people that also have a level of recognition that they have as much to lose as me to a certain extent. I don't know. I mean, I haven't had great luck lately, but I do have to say I'm moving up on... what it is that I'm looking for as a match.

I've had some doozies. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, it's interesting that whole, I hope that that is starting to dissipate culturally. I hope so. I really do. I think it, social media is perpetuating some of those things in a really big way. But I, you know, I did dream of my wedding growing up. And that's not to say that I didn't dream of the bigness of my life, but I could have spent a lot more time dreaming of my life.

And, you know, as much as grief does surface for me around not having children and not having a partner, I still wouldn't want the wrong partner. That's a great point. At all. I'm not interested in that. You have to make my life better. It can't just be, you know, I'm in a relationship to be in a relationship.

So even though the grief does emerge and that comes and I hold that, I think of what I've done. And I think of, I woke up every morning trying to do my best.

I didn't wake up one morning and be like, I'm going to mess this day up. That's right. So I must be where I'm supposed to be. And I don't know, sometimes I think of all of the things I've done, the courage that I've had to have and what I've had to learn how to navigate as a single person with no one to hide behind. And it's built a really beautiful experience around me.

And I have incredible friends. You do.

I'm excited.

Yeah, I like it.

Well, yeah, I thought that was so interesting what you said. When you asked Craig that question, I thought, I think it's timing.

That when a guy feels they're ready, then who's in front of you? They just kick. Right.

And then it takes your second marriage to figure out you need to be discerning.

It's fascinating.

I think that is really, I thought that was really helpful for other people to hear. The other thing I'm curious is, is that cultural that meant it's timing? Or is it, I don't know, it's just nature or nurture?

Well, now for my generation. I don't even know my generation. For me.

Oh, terrible. Yeah, yeah. Heartbreaking.

Oh, no, I don't like this.

Yeah, that's hard. That's very hard.

I just think culturally, that is what we say.

Well, I think obviously there's all different kinds of people. There's all different kinds. I mean, and you know, then we are not even entering into the gender fluidity within this conversation. That is so much a part of what the younger generation is making sense of. And I think they're actually doing that really beautifully. I do too.

And I've learned so much from the gender conversation and how it's expanded. I've learned so much about myself and what are the expectations that I didn't know were expectations about being a woman that I'm like, oh, I don't need to own that because I just thought that was a given, but now I know it's not. But I think the societal norm, yes.

I mean, I had a guy say to me recently, yeah, you can't make a man do anything he doesn't want to do. But culturally, you can make a woman do a lot of things she doesn't want to do because we're trained culturally to acquiesce in that way, that that's our role, that we are... But I mean, this guy Ronan, I love the question because...

First of all, what I'll say to Ronan is no one knows you better than you.

And your friends can have all the suggestions in the world. And some of them might be helpful ones. And some of them might be ones you want to consider. And then I think the thing that you have to do is ask yourself, does that feel right for me? Does that really feel like what's going to get the growth to happen?

And sometimes not dating helps people discover that. And sometimes dating is the thing that helps people discover that. Yeah.

Yeah, I do see a lot more of it. I see a lot of it online and I really celebrated. I think it's beautiful to see men have these deeper conversations about who they are and what they want. But the norm is no. And then the other thing to me is the invitation, right? It's like, yes, that's the cultural norm, but the invitation is really to remind everyone, men and women,

to take into account who they are and what is important to you. You know, is somebody's height the most important thing to you and why? Why? Is it because of what other people see or is it because of you? You know what I mean? Like, what is it? And I think those reflective questions not only help you in dating, they just help you in life.

Yes, some people that engages their chemistry.

And I have no judgment, really. Like, there's things for people. Everybody has different values around those things and what's important. Some people don't want deep conversation. Yeah, yeah. Some people, that is not their thing. It feels invasive. It feels uncomfortable. Some people do, you know. I also think for Ronan…

I have come to really know that there's a big difference in somebody that I am looking at dating as a partner and somebody that's somebody to enjoy and take what I like and leave the rest. And I learned as I've gotten older, like chemistry is not a relationship. Ooh, say that again. Chemistry is not a relationship. And love does not always include chemistry. Yes. And I'm somebody who wants both.

Mm-hmm. Now, everybody's not like that. Some people really don't want sort of the passionate chemistry of intimate physical energy. That's not their thing. And you don't want to be in a relationship with somebody who that's one of the ways they communicate love. Like, for example, I have male friends. I have

One that we literally text and it's not flirting and it's all clothes and fashion and shopping. And it's like a version of a relationship. He's the sexiest little thing. He's young. There's never been anything physical. But we have this amazing exchange that happens all the time.

No.

But that's fun, right?

And I'm single. Then I have a friend I go to the movies with. You know what I mean? And then there's people that... And obviously, if I end up in a relationship with someone, those probably will not continue. Those different things. But my friendships will continue because you also can't expect your partner to be everything.

He's having no problems dating.

The other big thing I'm going to say, look, I'm 52. Mm-hmm.

I might not meet a partner. Yeah. Okay. I'm saying, like, I know there's this assumption, right? And the assumption is if you don't, there's something wrong with you. I don't agree.

Like, I'm just like, no, I don't. That's, no. I'm a great match and a great catch and all those things, but I also am going to wait for the right person. So to Ronan, I would say, let yourself own the fact that you want a relationship. And you are going to do all the things you know how to do to walk towards that. And if you don't find the right person, it's not a reflection of you.

If you're doing all the right things, you know what I mean? I think that's the first thing I would say to Rona. The second thing is, ask yourself the question, is dating helping you get towards what you want? Or is it actually distracting you because there's enough drama that you're not having the courage to say, this is what I want.

I had a friend who was dating recently and the guy is out of a divorce and there's just some stuff going on and they really like each other, but he's kind of in a hallway. And she said, which I thought was the most courageous and beautiful thing, why don't you call me when you're out of the hallway?

When you find a room.

And like, if you still think I'm somebody that could be in that room with you, then give me a call. I mean, I said to someone I was dating recently, like, I've come to realize that you are not a loving match for me as much as I love you.

I didn't hear from him for a while.

Yeah, well, he made his bed before when he wasn't showing up the way he should have. I gave him enough tries. And the crazy thing is for me, when it takes a lot for somebody to get inside my heart and feel safe. Once you get in there, it's so hard for me to get you out. And I have to really give myself time.

And that's the other thing I would say to Ronan about him sort of pining around this old relationship. Remember that in memory, you remember the good stuff.

So it's not always the full picture. There's a reason that didn't work and you can trust that. And the right relationship, there's nothing you can do to make it stop. Like it will resurface itself if it's meant to be.

Yeah, that's crazy.

Can I just ask what some of the 32 things on the list were?

Of the questions?

I'm so curious.

I'm going to throw that at one of the people I'm dating right now.

Yeah, that's really smart.

Yeah, that was really helpful.

Well, I think it depends because I don't think we have enough information from Ronan, right? Like when he says distracting, what kind of distracting? So that's why I posed the question back to him of, you have to ask yourself some questions to figure out, is that the right advice for you? Are you learning enough from dating that's actually giving you the right information about yourself?

Or is the dating actually taking you off course?

Because you're getting invested in the drama of things aren't working out or are working out.

Yeah. Thoughtful from an internal compass is my thing. I always ask myself when I leave any situation, date included, how do I feel after?

Do I feel, because sometimes you can think it's really nice in that moment and you leave and I was like, wait, why do I feel small?

Why do I feel more insecure? Or do you feel good about yourself? Another question I do like to ask people is how do you argue? Oh, that's a good one. Yeah.

You know, because like my siblings, we all, there's a way that my family argues that I'm comfortable with. And I've been, because I get loud and then it's done. Like I'm so straightforward. I'm not somebody who's going to like hold it. Like I'm going to say it. For some people, that's terrifying. Yes. It's terrifying and sort of sends them into another place.

So those are, I just think all those kinds of questions and asking them both of the other person and of yourself.

when it's hard, you know? Well, I mean, you know, social media has made a myth of so many things because life requires you to show up. That's right. And if you want anything out of it, it's going to be work, you know, and relationships included. Someone told me this great just metaphor of imagine that the people you're closest to, you're going to step on each other's toes.

And so how do you work out the stepping on toes? Do you just blame them? That's right. Or do you figure out how to not step on each other's toes? Or is that just the nature of what a relationship brings? And then how do you work those things through and work those things out?

Yeah.

Or you're going to try and date yourself, which you don't want to do.

Do you as the man in your relationship, since we've been talking about it from our perspective, do you feel that you have continued to grow in your current marriage and that it asks that of you?

And that's what I... That's a really nice thing to say. Like, I've gotten better at being in a relationship.

Chemistry and love, yeah.

What's important to him in a relationship.

And can I reframe that?

So let's just call it the work because it's not extra work. That's just the work it takes.

Yeah, and if there are those things that you are like longing to do with a partner, are there versions of that you can do with yourself? Which is the thing that I have really discovered in my life. I'm like, all right, so how can I do that on my own while still dating? Mm-hmm. Well, Tracy. What a fun conversation. I love you. I love you right back. Yeah.

I'm so good. Like I said, family. I do feel like family. We got family in the house. Really interesting conversation. And I took some notes. Oh. I took notes in my head and I actually wrote them down out there because you said there's a lot you can learn about how, who a guy is or who a person is by how they are on the court. Yes. They let their guard down.

I think I could have used that information.

I think I'm a little late on adding that to my list of how to figure out if he's a match. There's still time. Noted now. There's still time because I'm still single. So noted now. You know, there's still time.

It's always good. Well, the thing is, I stay open. I'm probably more open. Way open. Oh, my God. That sounded so wrong.

Mom. My heart. Your family. My heart stays open.

That was hard. Good correction. More open than it should be. But I do date. And it's a fascinating adventure out there. You know? Mostly, though, I think there's really good men out there. I think to a certain extent... I'm a very unique sort of unicorn of a woman. And so it's going to take a unique person.

And in the meantime, I have really learned how to live my life and enjoy it and not sit around waiting. I come, you know, I was saying to someone recently that I'm one of the first generations of choice and it's not anymore, which really there was a window and that has shifted. And I do think that that's going to change dating for women so much.

When you mean you've been the sort of the product of choice? Yeah, like the assumption of Roe v. Wade and the ability for a woman to find her own delight and pleasure and choice around how she navigates dating or how one would navigate dating. And we're in a different world now. And I'm curious what that will look like. It frightens me for younger girls because of many reasons, obviously. But

Even with the systemic protection of Roe v. Wade, I still was coming up against the cultural norms of being a choiceful woman and owning my own body and my own choices and what it is that I'm looking for in a relationship and the ability to negotiate in a relationship what it is you want the relationship to be between the two of you as opposed to what society says it should be.