Tara Isabella Burton
Appearances
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
So I'm torn on this. Is this for the clout, whether or not it's for financial gain? But at the same time, I think it's also true that there is a long historical tradition of people living lives that are incredibly physically unpleasant or characterized by deprivation because they have chosen to do so in order to focus their attention and love on the ultimate reality. Historically, these have been
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
religious people. These have been hermits or mystics or monks who have willingly taken on a particular kind of life in order to focus on the hereafter. And what interests me, if let's assume Brian Johnson is in good faith here, is that the
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
What does it look like to want to have a life that is focused on the ultimate form of transcendence, a life that is focused on, you know, what you believe to be God, if you don't believe in a transcendent higher power? And I think what Brian Johnson is doing or claims to be doing is kind of serving as a model for what it might look like to basically be a priest in the religion of AI.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
the kinds of high-level interventions Brian Johnson is doing are not really accessible to most people. But I think I don't necessarily see a strong distinction between what he's doing and two different subcultures, one of which is the wellness subculture, which is usually more sort of traditionally female-coded, I'd say, and life optimization or life hacking, which is often coded as masculine.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
I think we're seeing... this proliferation of the idea that we owe it to ourselves to be our best selves, not necessarily morally, but in terms of how much work you put into self-improvement. You are earning your worth or proving your worth by constantly working on yourself.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
Thank you for having us. Thank you.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
So I see the current interest in longevity research as having, in part, a religious character. I think we can look at it as part of a whole bunch of things happening, particularly in the tech world, but in the culture more broadly now. that have a kind of spiritual sensibility around the idea of developing the post-human.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
This is associated with the transhumanist movement, with biohacking, with other forms of life optimization. But the idea behind it in many cases is that what it means to be human is to transcend our own humanity, to defeat death in the case of longevity research, or in the case of building AI, to build the thing that comes next. What if we build God rather than worship God?
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
And Brian Johnson is explicit about this on X. He specifically says, like, level one is you start a company. Level two is that you start a country. Level three is a religion. Level four is don't die. And level five is become God. So he's, you know, not exactly being subtle about it. He's not being coy.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
This is not just that he wants to live forever because, you know, he personally wants to live forever and things to be kind of cool. He very much sees this as the frontier of the human experience. He is leading the charge to the post-human age.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
This is all happening in and against the backdrop of the attention economy. Our time is money in a very particular way now because more and more of us, in terms of how we consume media, how we live our lives, so much of it online, our attention is in fact monetizable online. our time makes money for other people.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
Something I don't want to overlook about Brian Johnson is that he is also in some ways could be considered a wellness influencer. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. His fame, his public persona is, He is able to do what he's doing in part because we are watching it. We can't look away. He is a fascinating reality show character. We watch the documentary that was made about him. We read his tweets.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
And so he simultaneously perhaps is extending his own lifespan, but he's also a kind of very measurably taking from our lifespan in the sense that our time is being dedicated to him.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
Absolutely. In an era where saving for retirement is a kind of a source of stress and impossibility for so many, the idea that infinite time is something to be looked at only with desire rather than fear does mean a long life is for the wealthy.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
What Brian Johnson is doing or claims to be doing is kind of serving as a model for what it might look like to basically be a priest in the religion of AI.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
There's been this like real Silicon Valley longstanding tradition of thinking you can use science and technology to hack yourself. But more recently, and I think more relevantly to both scientists Brian Johnson's desire to get rid of his rascal brain, as well as the interest in the power of AI, is a community known as the rationalist subculture or the rationalist community.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
And this is a bit of an umbrella term for what basically started out as commenters and readers of a group of blogs, most notably Overcoming Bias, Less Wrong, and Slate Star Codex, that claim to basically help people think better. The idea is that You're a human. You're a dumb animal. You have self-serving biases and ways you look at the world that make you dumber. Here's how not to do that.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
Certainly, there are ways you can, in fact, train your brain to not make certain kinds of errors. But it really turned into... A close subculture that had some kind of quasi-religious qualities. That language about self-overcoming became part of, let's say, the tech world mainstream. And a lot of rationalists as well were also interested in the problem of AI alignment.
It's Been a Minute
The "priest of AI" & tech's pursuit of eternal life
And particularly the X risk, the existential risk that someone might accidentally create an artificial intelligence that is hostile to humans and wipes us out. How do you address that fear? One answer is to stop AI development. One is to ensure that whatever AI you are creating wants to work with humans or is going to be friendly to humans.
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
I think it's certainly the case that one of the risks is sort of overly putting responsibility on the individual for their outcomes. But I think that another danger is that it stops people from kind of reckoning meaningfully with some of the most important questions that humans have traditionally asked each other and themselves, which is...
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
What does it mean to be human when being human means we don't have control, when we can't determine when we get sick, when we can't determine what's going to happen to us, that life is inherently mysterious and out of our control? And some people do sort of find traditional religious faith to be one place where this question gets dealt with and grappled with a lot and some answers are provided.
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
Something that perhaps the transhumanists of Silicon Valley are very honest about is that this is part of the human condition. Let's get rid of it and be something that's not human. That's certainly another answer that you could have to this question. I think that what manifesting does is it kind of creates a layer of fog and like internet slop between us and this reality.
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
You can make it happen by getting in touch with the inner workings of the universe, the divine energy, the force. There's a lot of different language that people use for it.
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
I don't think it's good for anyone to lose touch with such a kind of fundamental element of the human condition.
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
In a weird way, something that the internet and the attention economy have done to these sort of semi-spiritual phenomena like manifesting is that they kind of make them work, which is to say a life that is largely lived on an algorithmically driven internet that functions on the attention economy is a life where reality is fungible because what you see is what you want to see.
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
And if you like seeing something, you're going to see more of it. The world that you're looking at on your screen literally shapes itself in accordance to your desire. And so, you know, manifesting is true on the Internet, whether or not it's true offline. But algorithmic logic can shape what we think to be true when it comes to the news.
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
It shapes what we think to be true when it comes to our response to the scientific establishment, whether we trust it or not. The reality we see online does in fact shape the reality that we build offline. And to the extent that someone can capture the attention economy or hijack the attention economy and make a reality appear to us.
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
In that realm, it will, in fact, have real political effects, real economic effects. And so that doesn't mean I think manifesting is real, but I think that the internet and manifesting do exist in this kind of symbiotic relationship where the more time we spend plugged into the internet, the more it becomes kind of a little bit true that...
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
If you want something badly enough, you can, in fact, shape reality. Reality is something that can be shaped with desire.
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
What we're actually seeing is this overall normalization of the idea that the average person should try to become divine.
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
So the short version of New Thought is that in the 1860s, there was one New England clockmaker named Phineas Quimby who tries his hand at some faith healing.
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
Problem is, it only works sometimes. And he asks himself, like, what is it? Is it me that is not working? And he's like, no, definitely could not be me. It must be that the people who aren't getting better don't want to get better. And he comes up with this idea of what becomes known as New Thought, that wanting to be well is what's going to get you well.
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
And originally, New Thought is primarily about health. But there's a resurgence of this a couple of decades later in what's known as the Gilded Age, this time of incredible wealth inequality, where New Thought gets reinvented, but for money. And again, it's the same idea. If you're poor, it's your fault. And since this sort of dawn of wealth-related New Thought...
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
In the late 19th and early 20th century, there are various resurgences of this mentality. One of the most famous ones was Norman Vincent Peale, who wrote, I believe it was 1952, The Power of Positive Thinking. Yeah. He was also the pastor to the Trump family, make of that what you will. In the early 2000s with The Secret by Rhoda Byrne, popularized by Oprah Winfrey. But it's all the same.
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
There's this invisible energy. And if you want it badly enough, you can tap into it. And if you buy my book, you can tap into it extra. Or if you watch my TikTok, you can tap into it extra. You are your own god and the world is going to fall in line with what you want if you just want it badly enough.
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
Yeah. Some evangelical churches do make use of the prosperity gospel, which is this idea that God wants you to be rich. You can, in fact, attract these things that God wants for you to yourself. God wants you to have all these great things. And if you don't have those things, it's because you're not in touch with the divine will. The idea that God wants health and wealth for you is not a given.
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
I think a lot of religious traditions do start from the question of why do bad things happen to good people? And often the answer is, I don't know, or God is mysterious, or we're trying to learn some lesson, or a lot of other solutions to this problem, what's called theodicy, the study of why God allows evil, that don't blame the individual in quite the same way.
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
Can you say more about that? What's really interesting is that we are seeing in a bunch of different places across the cultural spectrum, this idea that we should transcend our human limitations and try and make ourselves into another kind of maybe more divine being. And one of the ways that we see this is in the popularity of manifesting.
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
This ideology is often and has been since the era of New Thought bound up with this ideal of self-divinization. Like, I am divine. I am bountiful. I am abundant. Maybe I'm also not, you know, the God who created the world, but my true nature is as divinity, as part of God or God.
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
in a way that's slightly different from even a traditional, speaking to my own experience, Christian conception of, you know, you might become one with God through salvation or through Jesus, but like, you're not God. There is a distinction between creator and created. But another place you see the same ideal of self-divinization is the transhumanism you find in the tech world.
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
Recently, Brian Johnson, who's a sort of entrepreneur who went viral a little while ago with saying he could live forever.
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
Went once again viral for announcing his new don't die religion, which has one very obvious tenet in it. I bet you can figure out what it is. Yeah.
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
It's certainly unlikely. Yes. But the idea with a lot of this life extension work or anti-death work that is funded by a lot of people in the tech world, Peter Thiel's invested very heavily in life extension research. And again, there's a soft version of this, which is like, how can we make people live longer? This seems like generally a good idea.
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
And then there is the more intense version of it, which is develop the post-human. And one of the ways that we become post-humans faster is by getting rid of all those pesky things like sickness and death. There is a very spiritualized version that is dedicated to this idea that some people have the power to
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
to shape their own reality and shape the reality of those around them and transcend human limitations. And there are other people who don't. And so I think that now these ideas, which have often been sort of fringe or considered heretical or considered just out there, because of the power of the internet to amplify them, are actually becoming incredibly normalized. So we're seeing not just
It's Been a Minute
Am I a god?! Why "manifesting" your reality is easier than ever
the popularity of manifestation and the popularity of transhumanism as two discrete phenomena, what we're actually seeing is this overall normalization of the idea that the average person should try to become divine.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
Right, like I think the music industry, the way it's structured now is so...
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
independent and fractured in the way that like different artists are locked into different contracts there's a lot of competition so I think it's it's much harder like I think individual artists have had to opt out like you were saying earlier have had to say hey we're not going to tour anymore or you know I'm done recording music or you know they have to sort of bow out in the ways that they feel like they can but it seems like there's less space for them to sort of band together and make a big statement about the state of the industry or about what they'd like to see change and improve in the industry.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
Because of streaming and because of what some people are calling the cost of touring crisis, we're seeing more and more musicians turn to OnlyFans and turn to digital sex work as a way to supplement the income that they feel they're not adequately getting from recording music and from touring.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
Recorded music has really declined in value because artists make so little from how much we actually listen to their music. The revenue from touring is just not going to cut it. And at the same time, concert tickets are becoming more and more expensive. It raises a lot of questions about where the money is actually going if it's not making its way back to the artists.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
So, I mean, you know, the Department of Justice and 30 states filed an antitrust lawsuit against Ticketmaster and its parent company, Live Nation, basically saying that because they have their hands in so many different aspects of live entertainment, you know, they own venues, they are involved in artist management, they're involved in promotion, they're involved in ticketing, that the fact that they have so much control over the industry might be enabling them to raise ticket prices significantly.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
In a way that's concerning for both fans and for artists and also obviously for everyone that works to put on a live show. I mean, that goes from like independent venue owners to the people who work valet parking at a venue or the bartender or the crew and the band for a big musician.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
Like there are so many people involved in putting on a live show and the money has to sort of trickle its way down. And it seems like the concern is that when one company holds so much control, that money might not be making its way all the way down.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
Yeah. And I mean, like you mentioned, like it's definitely not just these companies. There's so many factors. It's also inflation. Like the cost of everything that it takes to tour has gotten significantly more expensive. But what the artists are being paid out might be the same as it was seven years ago.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
It's just like now like, you know, a hotel and a tour bus and gas and plane tickets, like all of that stuff is significantly more expensive. And I think the elephant in the room is that the pandemic really impacted the industry. A lot of artists were not able to work or tour for years. more than a year during the pandemic.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
And then they emerged to this completely unrecognizable atmosphere where it's like, you know, people were having to social distance or take COVID tests or quarantine while you're on tour. Like this entire experience of live music is built on close contact. And that really kind of came apart during the pandemic. And I think artists had to really bear the
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
financial and emotional and physical toll of that in so many instances, especially if anybody got sick and shows were canceled. And there just wasn't an easy way to recover from that. We're five years out, but I think we're still significantly dealing with the aftermath of that as well.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that's the big question, because like you mentioned, like we're seeing Taylor Swift and Beyonce and Coldplay and all these really big artists. Set records sometimes. Yes. They're breaking box office records. So clearly the demand is there. Like fans want to come see live music. Fans want to support artists.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
And fans are maybe spending more than they ever have to do so. But I think the thing is, it's becoming less and less popular.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
feasible for middle class artists to sort of you know strike a middle ground where it's like if you're not a Taylor Swift if you're not a Beyonce if you're just trying to play small clubs and theaters and you know be able to come back home and work on an album that's becoming less and less possible so I think we're seeing a larger financial discrepancy within the music industry and
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
And it's becoming harder and harder for middle class artists, especially those who don't have a financial safety net. And again, I think this was one of the big things we saw during COVID.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
You know, one of the musicians that I interviewed, Lizzy Ngo, who's now on OnlyFans, she told me during COVID she was going to medical trials as a way to pay her bills because like some of her friends in the music industry, she didn't have family money or she didn't have like, you know, a cabin upstate where she could just go hang out and write music while she was writing out the pandemic.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
So I think these inequities in the music industry are are becoming more and more stark.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
Yeah, it's super complicated because, like you said, I think OnlyFans took out sort of the studio middleman for a lot of people who did some kind of sex work or who did pornography. And it made it a lot safer for them. And we've seen that when major celebrities join the platform, it can really hurt their bottom line.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
A couple of years ago, former Disney star and singer Bella Thorne joined OnlyFans. She broke records, right? Because like so many people subscribed to her within her first 24 hours. She made all this money. Then there was like allegations that she wasn't sharing the kind of content she had promised. A bunch of people asked for refunds.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
And even though, you know, OnlyFans issued statements to other outlets saying that it was not related to Bella Thorne, but shortly after all of this happened... they changed policies. So they, like, capped how much fans could tip creators. They changed payout structures.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
And sex workers were very, very upset because they felt that someone like Bella Thorne, who, you know, is probably not what's called a survival sex worker, like, she doesn't depend on sex work to pay her bills, as far as we know, to eat, you know, on a day-to-day basis. She could sort of, like, dabble in and out of OnlyFans.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
And it has real material impacts for everybody else who really depends on that, you know, to make a living. So... I think it's a sliding scale because obviously someone like Kate Nash or Lizzy Ngo, who's one of the other singers I interviewed, I don't think they're crashing OnlyFans in the same way that Bella Thorne did.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
But definitely when you see a huge celebrity join the platform, it can have very real implications for quote-unquote regular sex workers who don't have all these fans and all the support behind them, and that can really hurt them financially at the end of the day.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
The music industry could become a place where only the wealthy and only the ones who have this incredible financial safety net can be creative and can express themselves. We lose a lot if those are the only people who are afforded those opportunities.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
Over the years, there's been lots of people, Cardi B, Rico Nasty, Lily Allen, who have joined OnlyFans, and not all of them have shared nude content. The British artist Shy Girl was the first artist to premiere a music video on OnlyFans. So there is some sort of like blurring of lines of what musicians are on there for.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
Yeah. I mean, I think the understanding is that like in the 1990s, again, pre-streaming, like you could record an album, you know, your music, your physical music would sell when people wanted to listen to it. It would get radio play. If your song gets included in a movie or a TV show or a commercial, that's a really big payout for artists.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
You could tour and make a significant amount of money from that. You would sell merch, make a significant amount of money from that. And I think the idea is that you were comfortable enough, like maybe you weren't you know, rolling in money or maybe you were still kind of living paycheck to paycheck, but it didn't feel like you were drowning the way that it seems like some musicians feel today.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
for ten and a half months and came home and was like I have all this amazing press written about me but I need to go back on the tour tomorrow if I want to pay my rent next month which also if you're a musician when are you supposed to have time to like to record and write songs yeah how are you going to pay for studio time when do you have down time to like be a human being and focus on making more art to go back out on the road you know
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
I mean, I think music is something most of us love and enjoy and we find a lot of meaning in. I think, you know, just like any other workers in America, the people who make the music that we love and listen to deserve to make a comfortable living. They deserve to have a comfortable lifestyle.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
And I'm not saying, like, everyone should be a billionaire, but I think, you know, it is concerning to think that, like, The music industry could become a place where only the wealthy and only the ones who have this incredible financial safety net can be creative and can express themselves. We lose a lot if those are the only people who are afforded those opportunities.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
And I also think when we're talking about like a middle class artist in the 90s, like you used to not also have to be a full time content creator to be a musician.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
Right. There's so much added work from the fact that now it's like you have to be making TikToks and you have to be building an Instagram following and partnering with brands. And definitely some of that comes with a payout. But I think we're just expecting more and more and more of the artists that we love. And with that comes like
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
we have all these kinds of new parasocial relationships with the artists that we love as fans because we're so used to having free access to them on social media.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
And, you know, we have so many conversations about people like Chapel Roan wanting to put up boundaries or wanting to, you know, take a step back and let fans know that they can't take her presence for granted or they're not just like automatically like given access to her because they love her music. Musicians are still people. And I think that,
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
We're just maybe asking too much of them right now, considering what they're getting in return, at least for like indie and working class musicians.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
I mean, I think part of it is that they're not unionized. So they don't have the collective power that, you know, a group like SAG-AFTRA does. Because I totally agree with you. I think at some point before the strikes happened, I remember the actress Sydney Sweeney gave an interview where she was saying that actors just don't make as much money anymore. And people came at her.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
And obviously, Sydney Sweeney is like a very famous and very successful actress. But I think once the SAG-AFTRA strikes did happen and the writer strikes happened, people did sort of come to terms with the fact that like, Just because someone is very visible and very quote unquote famous, that doesn't mean they're as rich as we might assume that they are.
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
There's so many costs that come with being a musician. Like you're paying a publicist, you're paying a manager, you're paying a touring manager, you're paying your band and your backline crew. You have all of these people who are part of your operation. And I think musicians don't quite have the same sort of bargaining collective power that
It's Been a Minute
Can OnlyFans save the music industry?
British singer-songwriter Kate Nash, who's been making music for almost two decades, she joined in November and it was like so much judgment being thrown around about her choosing to do this. And it kind of seemed like the big question that was being evaded was like, well, why is an artist like her needing to supplement her income in the first place?