Simon Rabinovitch
Appearances
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
Today Explained is back with Simon Rabinovich. Simon, you write that we are seeing Project 2025 become U.S. policy. Where are we seeing it?
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
Well, I think first and foremost, you know, what Russ Vogt is doing with the OMB, you know, is very much in line with what his blueprint was. He wrote a chapter in Project 2025 about basically how to use the executive office of the president. And he was, you know, totally transparent with his intentions.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
And so he viewed the idea of strengthening the White House as a way of basically returning power to the American people. And so he laid out a blueprint of how he would use the OMB, how he'd use the agencies under the OMB, including the Office of Personnel Management, to basically shake up the civil service, to traumatize it, to shrink it.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
and then to push through, you know, very, very robust ideas. So, you know, we've talked a bit about how he'd like a full-on ban on abortion. That's not something he can do, but he can do things in terms of trying to restrict immigration.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
And he has a view that immigration should be dramatically circumscribed, that ideally, in his view, America should primarily be favoring immigrants from Christian nations or Christian immigrants. Not only does the Bible support
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
These are things that, you know, obviously it's not just vote himself. People like Stephen Miller are integral to doing this. But, you know, this is what he talked about in Project 2025. I think you can go back and look at Project 2025 and see that, you know, much of what it was doing
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
was, you might say, one, writing out a blueprint, but two, also kind of channeling the ideology of the Trump world. And so therefore giving us a fairly clear idea of what President Trump was actually going to do.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
Now, much of what the Trump administration is doing is better described as trying to do because it is running into fierce opposition from the courts. We have the elected vice president, J.D. Vance, saying, intimating, I guess might be a better way of putting it, that the president ultimately has more power than the courts.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
What is Russell Vogt's plan to deal with that, to deal with all these lawsuits? I'm assuming he's thought this through?
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
He's certainly no dummy. So he knows that what he's doing does amount to radical reform, radical change, and therefore that there will be all kinds of opposition. It's not going to be a smooth road. And so, you know, he's anticipated that.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
that what they've done, the executive orders, trying to revive presidential power of empowerment, all of that will end up in the courts and probably ultimately will end up at the Supreme Court. And so it's not that he's afraid that the courts are going to block his agenda.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
I think rather he wants the courts to ultimately be the jurisdiction that determines whether or not his interpretation of the law is the correct one.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
And if he succeeds when these cases work their way up to a Supreme Court argument, if he succeeds, then he will have fundamentally redrawn the bounds of presidential power and brought America back to kind of a late 19th century version of the way that the White House could operate.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
My name is Simon Rabinovich, and I'm the U.S. economics editor with The Economist.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
In a way, all of these lawsuits aren't necessarily a bad thing. All of these lawsuits might be driving toward what Russ Vogt wants.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
That's right. Driving towards the kind of the fundamental confrontation to the judgment day, if you will. Now, of course, there still is concern and some of what J.D. Vance has said has animated those concerns that, you know, will the Trump administration abide by court rulings that don't go in their favor?
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
But I think as far as Russ Vogt is concerned, he has the confidence, the optimism that the courts will ultimately side with them. And I think legal scholars who've looked at impoundment power, for example, it's not clear exactly how the courts will rule. There's many people who think that what they're trying to do is unconstitutional, is illegal, but it's not a slam dunk.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
So there are a lot of outsized personalities in Donald Trump's second administration, starting with Donald Trump. We also have Elon Musk, RFK, Tulsi Gabbard, just a lot of character. Why do you think Russell vote is worth understanding?
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
There are two other men in a driver's seat in this administration. One of them is Vice President J.D. Vance, who seems very interested in using the power of the federal government to push for conservative ends. Things like making policy that would support families. J.D. Vance going head to head with the courts right now.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
And then you have Elon Musk, who is the unelected vice president, and he just simply seems to want to tear the government up, just shrink it, shrink it, shrink it. So these two guys both have a lot of power. They seem interested in handling it in different ways. Where does Russ Vogt fall in that spectrum? How does he navigate what seems to me like a tension issue?
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
Yeah, and I think you're right that there are tensions, and I think we'll kind of see those tensions come to the surface more and more as time moves on. I think for the time being, the way I would see it is that Russ Vogt sort of – it's not that he's necessarily anywhere specifically on that spectrum, but he shares bits and pieces – With all of them.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
So, you know, for example, specifically, if you look at J.D. Vance and how he's been very suspicious of big tech, I mean, Russ Vogt also is suspicious of big tech. His specific concern is that big tech has been too woke. and has been sort of forcing this woke agenda on the American people. So to the extent that J.D.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
Vance wants to cut down Silicon Valley, this is something that Russ Vogt certainly buys into as well. And then like Elon Musk, he also really wants to shrink government, as we've discussed. So I think to the extent that they are doing things that align with Russ Vogt's ideas, he's very much happy to just kind of go along with both of them.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
And whatever the tension is, he thinks the bigger vision is a much stronger White House, President Trump being relatively unencumbered. And he sees that both Vice President Vance and Elon Musk are pushing in that same direction. So I guess...
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
I suppose one way that you might see it is that it's not that Vogt sees himself specifically as a handmaiden of whatever happens to be the Trumpian vision of government, but rather he sees Trump and Trump's allies as basically being battering rams to destroy the status quo in government, especially the status quo in the bureaucracy, and to push through, hopefully, many of his beliefs.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
Well, Russ Vogt, he's not outsized in terms of his personality, but I think he is outsized in terms of his influence. He was there in the first Trump administration. He's a returnee, obviously, in the second. And he really is the architect of a lot of the chaos and disruption that we've seen in the last few weeks. It's his idea.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
He really wants the president to have more power. He really wants much in the government to bend to the executive. And he wants to make changes that would do that. And he appears to be making changes that would do that. But what happens when the next time a Democrat is elected president? Like, has he thought through the implications of what he wants to do here?
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
no doubt the implication would be that you'd begin to have this whipsawing between potentially an extreme Republican agenda followed by something that would be much more appealing towards Democratic voters. Having said that, I think that he believes that his role is not just to do something that's a corrective for the last four years, but to do something that's a corrective for the last century.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
So I think, you know, he's aware that a Democrat could begin to unwind some of his agenda, but he wants to demolish the civil service that's been built up, that's been strengthened and expanded, you know, going back to the time of Teddy Roosevelt, you know, well before even FDR.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
So, you know, if he's able to dramatically shrink the government, to dramatically assert the president's power to not spend all the money that's been appropriated, I think his belief would be that even if you have a democratic president, they would not be able to just completely reverse everything that he's done.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
So, I mean, yes, that's a risk to his agenda, but still, I think, you know, this is something that he thinks is required.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
Simon Rabinovich is the U.S. economics editor for leading magazine The Economist. Miles Bryan produced today's show and Amina El-Sadi edited. Andrea Christen's daughter engineered. Laura Bullard is our fact checker. And I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
to dramatically shrink the civil service, to bend it to President Trump's will, to reshape the way that the presidency operates to make it that much more powerful. So in many respects, he really is sort of the power behind the throne.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
OK, so when we say Elon Musk is the power behind the throne, he's the one dismantling the civil service. That's not exactly right.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
It's not exactly right. Elon Musk obviously has a great deal of influence, a great deal of power. But I think you can almost view Elon Musk and Doge, the so-called Department of Government Efficiency, as Russ votes shock troops. They, you know, they both agree that they want to reduce the size of the federal government to cut federal spending.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
You know, Musk is kind of hyperactive in moving every which way, every direction. But ultimately, kind of the general, the person who's really leading this is Russ Vogt. And he's the general. He's also the scholar because what they're doing will be challenged in courts. It will be challenged in Congress.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
But to the extent that there is a legal justification, this is something that Russ Vogt is working on and has been working on for years leading up to the moment that we now face today.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
So, Roosevelt has something of a blue-collar background, you could say. He had a big family, youngest of seven children.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
He himself has talked about having a very strong Christian upbringing. He went to college at an evangelical Christian school. All this matters because part of the way that he views his role in government is not just trying to change the way the presidency operates, but also trying to infuse Christian nationalism, his kind of self-defined ideology.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
During confirmation hearings, Democratic senators pushed President Trump's more controversial cabinet picks on things they'd allegedly said.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
He spent many, many years as a staffer for Republicans in Washington, D.C., and so kind of worked his way up the totem pole, if you will. And then he was a key player in Trump 1.0. And he's one of the few returnees in Trump 2.0. And I think also what's notable is that not only has he returned to the administration— He's back in the very role that he was in at the end of Trump's first term.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
But for one nominee, Russell Vogt, Democrats took the step of staging a 30-hour protest calling him... Donald Trump's most dangerous nominee. Before he was easily confirmed by the Republican majority Senate. The low-key Mr. Vogt now leads the low-key Office of Management and Budget. And while he's short on razzle-dazzle, he's been very, very, very effective so far.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
He's the director of the Office of Management and Budget. It's one of these agencies that not many people have heard of, but it actually wields a great degree of power and even more power in Russ Vogt's hands.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
When Russ Vogt says his politics are Christian nationalist, what does that mean?
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
Well, the way that he describes it is that he wants to basically bring Christianity into all aspects of society, especially government.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
And I think it's important because it doesn't just give him sort of a guidepost in terms of what he's doing, his views on abortion, which he wants to have a total ban on. It also kind of brings a certain righteousness of conviction to the way that he approaches his work, a belief that, in some cases, the ends justify the means.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
It's one of the reasons why, in Trump's first administration, no matter what President Trump did, Russ Vogt stood beside him. He thought that he was a key ally for kind of propelling his vision. And you can just listen to the way that he talks. You can read the way that he writes, and it's sort of inflected with these righteous tones.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
He talks about kind of quote-unquote the storm clouds being upon us.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
I've wondered about his speech. He's also quite mean. He can be quite mean. He talked about wanting to traumatize civil servants, make them realize that nobody likes them.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
Some of this language, I mean, if we were five years old, we would say that's not very nice. Now that we're older, we would say, you know, don't talk about traumatizing people. It's unnecessary.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
Yeah, and it's a really weird contrast because if you meet him... You know, I've had a long conversation with him and he has this very kind of scholarly demeanor. He's, you know, always very buttoned up and, you know, very nicely trimmed beard. And he's soft spoken. But then when you actually listen to what he's saying, it's really quite radical. And I think...
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
I think it's something that he... This is really just a reflection of the strength of his convictions. This is stuff that he truly, deeply believes in. And more than that, I think that the manner in which he speaks is something that helps to inspire people who work with him. And he does have... kind of a devoted group of small allies who kind of share his vision. He's not transactional.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
He might say he's not corruptible. This is just stuff that he really wants to do.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
Donald Trump famously throughout his life has engaged in a lot of behavior that is not particularly Christian. How did these two men get together? How does he end up with Donald Trump in the first administration?
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
Well, so Ruffo has an interesting transition over time from, you know, when he was a young Republican staffer, he was very much focused on kind of bread and butter fiscal conservatism. But then over the years, he got into more of a, you know, a MAGA style way of looking at government and ideology. And he was somebody who got involved in the Trump transition team.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
As you'll remember, there wasn't an incredibly deep bench of people back in 2017. Mm-hmm. And so he was appointed to the OMB. He was a deputy director. Eventually, in the final year, he became director of OMB. And I think the thing for vote is that he sees Trump as a vehicle for for pushing forward his ideas. So he talks about the fact that, you know, for example, abortion.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
This is something that he's quite passionate about. But yet all of these anti-abortion politicians in the Republican Party who failed to do anything, but it was Trump who ultimately was the one who, you know, through his Supreme Court appointments, was able to kill Roe versus Wade.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
And so Vote, I think, sees Trump as just a critical ally, as somebody who's, you know, even if he doesn't agree with him on a day-to-day basis or on many issues, the grand vision is something where he sees alignment.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
For four years, the Trump vehicle had more or less stalled. The president lost the 2020 election and was cast out into Florida. What was Russ Vogt doing then?
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
So the first thing to say is that at the very end of Trump 1.0, I think the Trump team began to realize this Russ vote guy has some ideas that are actually very, very powerful and might be electorally useful.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
So in his last year, when he was running the Office of Management and Budget, he was the one who wrote a memo saying that the federal government should stop all training in quote-unquote critical race theory. That obviously became a very powerful trope for Trump in his more recent election campaign. And he was also the one who was the architect of Schedule F, the idea...
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
that you could basically remove all career protections for civil servants. So the Trump team already had the sense that that vote was powerful. He leaves the administration. Trump is out of office. Vote forms this organization, Center for Renewing America, and basically begins to create the legal blueprint for a lot of the actions that we've seen in the last couple of weeks.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
So ideas for ways to give the president much more power over spending, which is known as impoundment power, basically the idea that Congress can approve spending, but the president has the ability not to actually execute that spending.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
And then also, you know, thinking about ways to get Schedule F back into power, thinking about ways to shrink the civil service. So basically beginning to create this blueprint for what Trump would do in his current administration. And one way as well in which Vote was very much involved in thinking through Trump 2.0 was that he was one of the driving forces behind Project 2025.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
Donald Trump had nothing to do with Project 2025. He thought it was ridiculous and abysmal.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
They are extreme. I mean, they're seriously extreme. Exactly, exactly. Trump denied on the campaign trail that Project 2025 had anything to do with his administration, his future administration. I don't know anything about it.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
But of course, as we've seen in power, he's appointed many of the people who were involved in drafting Project 2025. And, you know, first and foremost is Russ Vogt.
Today, Explained
Mr. Project 2025
Coming up, what is Project 2025? JK, JK, JK. You remember what it is. But now it's not just an idea. It is government policy. Simon returns after the break to identify all the places where we see the ideas made real.