Shakeia Taylor

He doesn't think so, and neither do his teammates. Actually, after the game, Rick Carlisle, Coach Rick Carlisle, was asked about the athletics player poll. And in addition to being very fiery about it, he called it, Shameful, actually, he demanded to see the faces of the players who said that about his star. It was a very impassioned response from a coach who clearly backs his guy.

He doesn't think so, and neither do his teammates. Actually, after the game, Rick Carlisle, Coach Rick Carlisle, was asked about the athletics player poll. And in addition to being very fiery about it, he called it, Shameful, actually, he demanded to see the faces of the players who said that about his star. It was a very impassioned response from a coach who clearly backs his guy.

Tyrese also addressed the overrated votes. By saying he's just going to be himself. He, you know, he said he doesn't he doesn't give I'll say a damn about what anyone thinks of him. And, you know, he understands that, you know, people may not like what he's doing or who he is, but he's going to continue to be himself. And Pascal Siakam came in and supported that.

Tyrese also addressed the overrated votes. By saying he's just going to be himself. He, you know, he said he doesn't he doesn't give I'll say a damn about what anyone thinks of him. And, you know, he understands that, you know, people may not like what he's doing or who he is, but he's going to continue to be himself. And Pascal Siakam came in and supported that.

You know, he said he's he backs everyone back their guy here. So if he's overrated, people in Indiana do not agree.

You know, he said he's he backs everyone back their guy here. So if he's overrated, people in Indiana do not agree.

Tyrese Halliburton continues to reiterate that they don't like each other. He said it before this series began. He said it tonight after the game. They don't like each other. There's probably a little bit of like game respects game, of course, but they don't like each other. And it was obvious all the way down both benches.

Tyrese Halliburton continues to reiterate that they don't like each other. He said it before this series began. He said it tonight after the game. They don't like each other. There's probably a little bit of like game respects game, of course, but they don't like each other. And it was obvious all the way down both benches.

I would say in game one, but especially tonight, you know, there was a dust up on the court. The players were hyping up the crowd who were really in support of the beef. I actually turned to someone sitting by me and I was like, hey, this crowd wants the smoke. Like they were chanting, you know, Bobby sucks. Even if Bobby Portis wasn't touching the ball. It's a nice change.

I would say in game one, but especially tonight, you know, there was a dust up on the court. The players were hyping up the crowd who were really in support of the beef. I actually turned to someone sitting by me and I was like, hey, this crowd wants the smoke. Like they were chanting, you know, Bobby sucks. Even if Bobby Portis wasn't touching the ball. It's a nice change.

After practice on Monday, I wrote how this team isn't a team that relies on one player to sort of be the star to carry the team. Right. Obviously, Halliburton is the guy, but they have a balanced scoring attack. They support each other. There is a real effort from everyone on the team to go out there and, you know, shut things down. Nimhard.

After practice on Monday, I wrote how this team isn't a team that relies on one player to sort of be the star to carry the team. Right. Obviously, Halliburton is the guy, but they have a balanced scoring attack. They support each other. There is a real effort from everyone on the team to go out there and, you know, shut things down. Nimhard.

I can't even, I mean, he had a slump going into the end of the regular season. In the postseason, he got activated, right? He's playing well on both sides of the court. He's putting the clamps on Damian Lillard, who people expected to come out tonight and light it up. There was a real expectation, you know, because with Lillard on the court, he kind of opens up Milwaukee's offense.

I can't even, I mean, he had a slump going into the end of the regular season. In the postseason, he got activated, right? He's playing well on both sides of the court. He's putting the clamps on Damian Lillard, who people expected to come out tonight and light it up. There was a real expectation, you know, because with Lillard on the court, he kind of opens up Milwaukee's offense.

He changes their ability to have spacing on the court. And none of that happened. In fact, I don't know if you guys even noticed, he only had 11 points well into the second half of the game. His three-pointer very late in the game came when Milwaukee was trying to fight their way back. But by then, the Pacers were like, it's too late.

He changes their ability to have spacing on the court. And none of that happened. In fact, I don't know if you guys even noticed, he only had 11 points well into the second half of the game. His three-pointer very late in the game came when Milwaukee was trying to fight their way back. But by then, the Pacers were like, it's too late.

They're going to have to slow Indiana down. Indiana's plan of attack from the beginning has been we are young and we are fast and we're just going to fly around the court. And that's exactly what they've been doing. They've been getting up and down the court really fast. And it makes sense. Milwaukee look tired, which is absolutely Rick Carlisle and his team's game plan. Tire them out.

They're going to have to slow Indiana down. Indiana's plan of attack from the beginning has been we are young and we are fast and we're just going to fly around the court. And that's exactly what they've been doing. They've been getting up and down the court really fast. And it makes sense. Milwaukee look tired, which is absolutely Rick Carlisle and his team's game plan. Tire them out.

Tyrese Halliburton talked about the wear down effect. They are fully aware that that is the way to get the bucks to show weakness. Like they know there's no really stopping someone like Giannis. But what you do is if you slow everyone else down, or I should say, keep them you know, sped up and keep them from scoring well, that's, that's going to be the plan.

Tyrese Halliburton talked about the wear down effect. They are fully aware that that is the way to get the bucks to show weakness. Like they know there's no really stopping someone like Giannis. But what you do is if you slow everyone else down, or I should say, keep them you know, sped up and keep them from scoring well, that's, that's going to be the plan.

So I guess Milwaukee has to figure out how do we slow this team down, but also how do we keep you? Cause you got six guys you have to keep out of double figures, right? Indiana has consistently had six guys in double figures this series. So I don't really know how you get six people, you know, to all be, to all have a bad night at once, but that's gotta be the goal.

So I guess Milwaukee has to figure out how do we slow this team down, but also how do we keep you? Cause you got six guys you have to keep out of double figures, right? Indiana has consistently had six guys in double figures this series. So I don't really know how you get six people, you know, to all be, to all have a bad night at once, but that's gotta be the goal.

In the beginning, I really was like, okay, this is gonna be, this is gonna go six or seven. They're gonna stretch this out. Giannis is gonna wanna, you know, want to fight because he didn't play, you know, last year's playoffs. This is gonna be a huge deal. But after tonight, I don't know that six or seven is is going to be the number of games in this series.

In the beginning, I really was like, okay, this is gonna be, this is gonna go six or seven. They're gonna stretch this out. Giannis is gonna wanna, you know, want to fight because he didn't play, you know, last year's playoffs. This is gonna be a huge deal. But after tonight, I don't know that six or seven is is going to be the number of games in this series.

If the Pacers continue to come out and just attack them and send a crowd the way they've been doing. Right. Like they know all they have to do is send two and three. And guys are switching off and making sure that Giannis. even though he's going to score, he's got to fight for it, right?

If the Pacers continue to come out and just attack them and send a crowd the way they've been doing. Right. Like they know all they have to do is send two and three. And guys are switching off and making sure that Giannis. even though he's going to score, he's got to fight for it, right?

He's got to put his shoulder down, and he's having to dig into multiple guys just to even get the shots he's getting. So defensively, Indiana has been, from everything I've heard in the time I've been here and been around the team, they're sticking to the plan, and they haven't kept it a secret. As far as Lillard goes, Doc Rivers said pregame he didn't even know what to expect

He's got to put his shoulder down, and he's having to dig into multiple guys just to even get the shots he's getting. So defensively, Indiana has been, from everything I've heard in the time I've been here and been around the team, they're sticking to the plan, and they haven't kept it a secret. As far as Lillard goes, Doc Rivers said pregame he didn't even know what to expect

from Lillard in, you know, the Tuesday night game. So I'm assuming, you know, because Lillard really didn't have a ton of time to get ready for this game. Yeah. That on Friday, we'll see a completely different performance from him because he'll have had more time to, you know, get his legs and get in some practice time.

from Lillard in, you know, the Tuesday night game. So I'm assuming, you know, because Lillard really didn't have a ton of time to get ready for this game. Yeah. That on Friday, we'll see a completely different performance from him because he'll have had more time to, you know, get his legs and get in some practice time.

And, you know, tonight will probably be a big recovery night for him considering, you know, what he just experienced with the diagnosis.

And, you know, tonight will probably be a big recovery night for him considering, you know, what he just experienced with the diagnosis.

And something that I thought was interesting that I'm sure you all will too, is most officials are former athletes and they're getting in five miles per game, running up and down the court with elite athletes, five miles per game.

And something that I thought was interesting that I'm sure you all will too, is most officials are former athletes and they're getting in five miles per game, running up and down the court with elite athletes, five miles per game.

Absolutely. It's even in my lead. I mentioned that like with the proliferation of gambling, referees are, they're under threat. Something that James Williams said in our conversation was social media is not a safe place for an official. In fact,

Absolutely. It's even in my lead. I mentioned that like with the proliferation of gambling, referees are, they're under threat. Something that James Williams said in our conversation was social media is not a safe place for an official. In fact,

early in his career, which obviously was in the pre, you know, boom of social media, but he remembers just feeling so horrible about a call in a game and the things that were said to him that he started wanting to work harder and wanting to be better and wanting to make fewer mistakes. Unfortunately, that's not how it goes for a lot of people. You get berated and

early in his career, which obviously was in the pre, you know, boom of social media, but he remembers just feeling so horrible about a call in a game and the things that were said to him that he started wanting to work harder and wanting to be better and wanting to make fewer mistakes. Unfortunately, that's not how it goes for a lot of people. You get berated and

one time too many you get cursed out you get your life threatened one time too many and you're like i'm out of here i'm not doing this and on the lower levels they're getting it from parents right like parents think they know the game parents and i'm not saying parents don't know the game but you you all know what i'm getting they don't no they don't no i'll say it they don't yeah i used to tell them that uh when i coached high school i used to tell them that at the beginning of the year

one time too many you get cursed out you get your life threatened one time too many and you're like i'm out of here i'm not doing this and on the lower levels they're getting it from parents right like parents think they know the game parents and i'm not saying parents don't know the game but you you all know what i'm getting they don't no they don't no i'll say it they don't yeah i used to tell them that uh when i coached high school i used to tell them that at the beginning of the year

So go ahead. But that's what they experience, right? They experience exactly what you and other coaches experience is parents telling them how to do their jobs. So imagine it when you're at the NBA level, you got thousands of people watching on TV, live streams. on social media, in the arena. And one mistake, you already have the weight of this could impact the game.

So go ahead. But that's what they experience, right? They experience exactly what you and other coaches experience is parents telling them how to do their jobs. So imagine it when you're at the NBA level, you got thousands of people watching on TV, live streams. on social media, in the arena. And one mistake, you already have the weight of this could impact the game.

This could impact the outcome of the game. You know, this could impact player relationships. But then you have this idea that I could be threatened and harmed, you know, after this. And so James talked about like wanting to not only teach the basics of how to do this job, but how to steel yourself out

This could impact the outcome of the game. You know, this could impact player relationships. But then you have this idea that I could be threatened and harmed, you know, after this. And so James talked about like wanting to not only teach the basics of how to do this job, but how to steel yourself out

to be able to sort of handle all of the outside noise and getting access to him to go back to your earlier questions, you know, was I really had to ask the MBA, uh, for permission to speak to him. Um, And I explained what the story was about. And, you know, he had to get clearance as well. It was a it was a process.

to be able to sort of handle all of the outside noise and getting access to him to go back to your earlier questions, you know, was I really had to ask the MBA, uh, for permission to speak to him. Um, And I explained what the story was about. And, you know, he had to get clearance as well. It was a it was a process.

It wasn't something that I was able to just sort of call him up and say, hey, can we talk about this? It was a it was a process. And in that process, I learned so much. I actually have a greater respect for people who opt into being an official because it is a service job and people in service jobs do not get thanked.

It wasn't something that I was able to just sort of call him up and say, hey, can we talk about this? It was a it was a process. And in that process, I learned so much. I actually have a greater respect for people who opt into being an official because it is a service job and people in service jobs do not get thanked.

So the rule book, the NBA rule book is 75 pages, right? So this is 75 pages of rules that all of these referees have to know. So you have to learn this, but they have no participation in the making of the rules. The way James explained it is the rules are made by lawyers, right? So it is not someone who is on the court looking at a game in flow.

So the rule book, the NBA rule book is 75 pages, right? So this is 75 pages of rules that all of these referees have to know. So you have to learn this, but they have no participation in the making of the rules. The way James explained it is the rules are made by lawyers, right? So it is not someone who is on the court looking at a game in flow.

It is made by someone who is just saying this is what we don't want in the game. Right. These are the things that we don't want to happen. So not only do you not help create the rules, but you have to have the mind to store that. how many rules are on 75 pages y'all? Like they've gotta be, it's gotta be a ton.

It is made by someone who is just saying this is what we don't want in the game. Right. These are the things that we don't want to happen. So not only do you not help create the rules, but you have to have the mind to store that. how many rules are on 75 pages y'all? Like they've gotta be, it's gotta be a ton.

There's gotta be a ton of them. So your, so your, your body has to be able to run five miles a game. You gotta be able to keep your feet in position. You gotta sequence your eyes. You gotta follow the play and you gotta run through a 75 page rule book as this is happening, right?

There's gotta be a ton of them. So your, so your, your body has to be able to run five miles a game. You gotta be able to keep your feet in position. You gotta sequence your eyes. You gotta follow the play and you gotta run through a 75 page rule book as this is happening, right?

This is a mentally and physically taxing role on the court that we mostly don't pay attention to until something happens. Right. I just thought that was really fascinating that there is no participation from officials in court. What is, you know, the part of officiating that matters? The rules.

This is a mentally and physically taxing role on the court that we mostly don't pay attention to until something happens. Right. I just thought that was really fascinating that there is no participation from officials in court. What is, you know, the part of officiating that matters? The rules.

Absolutely. Something that came up a lot in my conversations because I didn't just talk to James. Right. I talked to Monty McCutcheon of the NBA. I talked to other people at Refmasters and I talked to someone who is using Refmasters to sort of help improve herself as a referee. And what I thought was interesting was everyone mentioned up, down, rebound.

Absolutely. Something that came up a lot in my conversations because I didn't just talk to James. Right. I talked to Monty McCutcheon of the NBA. I talked to other people at Refmasters and I talked to someone who is using Refmasters to sort of help improve herself as a referee. And what I thought was interesting was everyone mentioned up, down, rebound.

So now whenever I'm watching a game, I'm looking at up, down, rebound. Right. Because I want to see what they're seeing. That's not something that I really as a normal watcher, you know, I'm like paying super close attention to. But they talk about how like what they're watching, where they have to be standing, the way their bodies have to be positioned. for that one thing.

So now whenever I'm watching a game, I'm looking at up, down, rebound. Right. Because I want to see what they're seeing. That's not something that I really as a normal watcher, you know, I'm like paying super close attention to. But they talk about how like what they're watching, where they have to be standing, the way their bodies have to be positioned. for that one thing.

That's not including everything else.

That's not including everything else.

I feel like I would not give a good explanation for that.

I feel like I would not give a good explanation for that.

So as it was explained to me, when a player goes up, right, for the rebound, you're watching not only their hands, but you're watching their feet and you have to watch everyone around them. Right. So you can't just watch the ball. So your eyes have to go. I'm sorry. I'm using my hands as if people can see me on YouTube.

So as it was explained to me, when a player goes up, right, for the rebound, you're watching not only their hands, but you're watching their feet and you have to watch everyone around them. Right. So you can't just watch the ball. So your eyes have to go. I'm sorry. I'm using my hands as if people can see me on YouTube.

So so your eyes have to go up, down, back to the ball incredibly quickly because you have to have this sequence of events. in your mind with your eyes. So you can make the correct call, whether this person is touched, whether there's, you know, someone sticks a hand out or whatever. And now that I've heard that I start looking, you never realize how many hands are going toward the ball.

So so your eyes have to go up, down, back to the ball incredibly quickly because you have to have this sequence of events. in your mind with your eyes. So you can make the correct call, whether this person is touched, whether there's, you know, someone sticks a hand out or whatever. And now that I've heard that I start looking, you never realize how many hands are going toward the ball.

So you're watching who's got the ball. You're watching for possession. You're watching for who taps it. You're watching for the slightest alteration of the movement of the the ball and it happens in seconds.

So you're watching who's got the ball. You're watching for possession. You're watching for who taps it. You're watching for the slightest alteration of the movement of the the ball and it happens in seconds.

That was great.

That was great.

Thank you. I'm very excited to be here. Thank you for reading the piece as well.

Thank you. I'm very excited to be here. Thank you for reading the piece as well.

I couldn't answer any questions as to why the NBA isn't doing it, but I know that, you know, this program, this app was created by two NBA referees and they got the idea in the bubble.

I couldn't answer any questions as to why the NBA isn't doing it, but I know that, you know, this program, this app was created by two NBA referees and they got the idea in the bubble.

I tried to kind of push as to like what in the bubble made that, you know, a thought considering there weren't fans there to go at them the way they are now, but they had the idea in the bubble and it was James Williams, who people call Gucci and Kane Fitzgerald, who is now in Secaucus at the main, you know, officiating center for the NBA. And their idea was, Hey,

I tried to kind of push as to like what in the bubble made that, you know, a thought considering there weren't fans there to go at them the way they are now, but they had the idea in the bubble and it was James Williams, who people call Gucci and Kane Fitzgerald, who is now in Secaucus at the main, you know, officiating center for the NBA. And their idea was, Hey,

We need constant and consistent and updated training. We don't write the rules. We're not a part of the rules making process, but it's our job to litigate them, so to speak. And this whole idea is getting people properly trained on positioning and sequencing and how to use your eyes to make better calls.

We need constant and consistent and updated training. We don't write the rules. We're not a part of the rules making process, but it's our job to litigate them, so to speak. And this whole idea is getting people properly trained on positioning and sequencing and how to use your eyes to make better calls.

Well, I have to start by telling you where I found out about Ref Masters. I found out about it in the most unconventional way, which is typically how I get a lot of ideas, to be honest, just random conversations. But I went to a women in sports panel at a Soho house here in Chicago, and the woman sitting next to me happened to be the executive vice president of Ref Masters.

Well, I have to start by telling you where I found out about Ref Masters. I found out about it in the most unconventional way, which is typically how I get a lot of ideas, to be honest, just random conversations. But I went to a women in sports panel at a Soho house here in Chicago, and the woman sitting next to me happened to be the executive vice president of Ref Masters.

And we got to chatting, you know, how you are when you're in a social context and we're just chatting and she gives me her card. I give her my card and we're talking about what they do. And I found it incredibly interesting, not only as a writer who attends tons of games and I've been, you know, to every sport on a professional level, I've covered to a certain degree.

And we got to chatting, you know, how you are when you're in a social context and we're just chatting and she gives me her card. I give her my card and we're talking about what they do. And I found it incredibly interesting, not only as a writer who attends tons of games and I've been, you know, to every sport on a professional level, I've covered to a certain degree.

And there's always a complaint about officiating, no matter the level, no matter the league. And so the fact that these people saw a need and said, OK, how can we impact this? And some of the big parts of officiating is data. I don't think the average fan considers that it's data. How much is this happening? How often are we making this call? Where are we standing when we're making this call?

And there's always a complaint about officiating, no matter the level, no matter the league. And so the fact that these people saw a need and said, OK, how can we impact this? And some of the big parts of officiating is data. I don't think the average fan considers that it's data. How much is this happening? How often are we making this call? Where are we standing when we're making this call?

What exactly should I be looking at? for this to be correct or accurate. And then you officiate the offense differently than the defense. So you have to know the flow of the game. You have to kind of know a player's tendencies. You have to know the rule book. There's just all this stuff on top of that. And as she and I got to talking, I was like, okay, this is amazing.

What exactly should I be looking at? for this to be correct or accurate. And then you officiate the offense differently than the defense. So you have to know the flow of the game. You have to kind of know a player's tendencies. You have to know the rule book. There's just all this stuff on top of that. And as she and I got to talking, I was like, okay, this is amazing.

This is sort of a pulling back of the curtain that the average person doesn't get. Instead, we get the mistakes or we get the good calls or we get the game impacting things or we get the players flipping out. We get the technicals. We don't know what goes into it.

This is sort of a pulling back of the curtain that the average person doesn't get. Instead, we get the mistakes or we get the good calls or we get the game impacting things or we get the players flipping out. We get the technicals. We don't know what goes into it.

I credit the Knicks. Like the Knicks played incredibly well tonight, you know, and it's very hard to win a closeout game. It's even harder to win a closeout game in Madison Square Garden. Oh, yeah. Right. Like you got the energy of the crowd behind the Knicks and the crowd was into it from the beginning of the game.

I credit the Knicks. Like the Knicks played incredibly well tonight, you know, and it's very hard to win a closeout game. It's even harder to win a closeout game in Madison Square Garden. Oh, yeah. Right. Like you got the energy of the crowd behind the Knicks and the crowd was into it from the beginning of the game.

I don't think mentally it looked like the Pacers were playing, you know, the way they normally do. And they let the Knicks dominate the pace of that game completely. You know, Halliburton was like, oh, I didn't get downhill, you know, but I don't even know if... The Knicks were really giving too much space.

I don't think mentally it looked like the Pacers were playing, you know, the way they normally do. And they let the Knicks dominate the pace of that game completely. You know, Halliburton was like, oh, I didn't get downhill, you know, but I don't even know if... The Knicks were really giving too much space.

I mean, maybe they were, maybe they weren't. I just know that it felt at least, you know, in the arena that the Pacers weren't their usual pesky, speedy selves. I'm so used to seeing them flying around the court, you know, moving very, very fast. And that wasn't happening. TJ McConnell, who I love to point out, is really aggravating if you're playing against him. And that's to his credit.

I mean, maybe they were, maybe they weren't. I just know that it felt at least, you know, in the arena that the Pacers weren't their usual pesky, speedy selves. I'm so used to seeing them flying around the court, you know, moving very, very fast. And that wasn't happening. TJ McConnell, who I love to point out, is really aggravating if you're playing against him. And that's to his credit.

That wasn't happening tonight. I think Aaron Neesmith's ankle might be a bit of an issue, you know, and cause him to slow down a little bit. Because, you know, every time you get on a plane, that ankle is going to swell a little bit. It just was not clicking for the Pacers at all. No matter, you know, what Rick Carlisle was trying to do as far as lineups. Jarris Walker was in the game.

That wasn't happening tonight. I think Aaron Neesmith's ankle might be a bit of an issue, you know, and cause him to slow down a little bit. Because, you know, every time you get on a plane, that ankle is going to swell a little bit. It just was not clicking for the Pacers at all. No matter, you know, what Rick Carlisle was trying to do as far as lineups. Jarris Walker was in the game.

In fact, when he hit his three pointer, I think the entire section next to me said, who is that at the exact same time? Yeah. To Rick Carlisle's credit, he was definitely trying anything and everything to kind of motivate these guys to pick up the pace, to be more aggressive. And it just wasn't happening. I mean, but again, credit to the Knicks.

In fact, when he hit his three pointer, I think the entire section next to me said, who is that at the exact same time? Yeah. To Rick Carlisle's credit, he was definitely trying anything and everything to kind of motivate these guys to pick up the pace, to be more aggressive. And it just wasn't happening. I mean, but again, credit to the Knicks.

You know what? I would say... First of all, it's been so much fun. The energy in both arenas has been incredible. The energy from both teams, with the exception, obviously, of the Pacers tonight has been incredible. It's been hard fought with like these games have been close.

You know what? I would say... First of all, it's been so much fun. The energy in both arenas has been incredible. The energy from both teams, with the exception, obviously, of the Pacers tonight has been incredible. It's been hard fought with like these games have been close.

you know obviously not counting tonight they've been close there's there's been a ton of it's like on the court you can tell right like everybody wants it but off the court in their post-game interviews they clearly respect one another 100 and that is I think what's making it even cooler is these guys are like hey that guy is amazing I gotta beat him we have to beat them

you know obviously not counting tonight they've been close there's there's been a ton of it's like on the court you can tell right like everybody wants it but off the court in their post-game interviews they clearly respect one another 100 and that is I think what's making it even cooler is these guys are like hey that guy is amazing I gotta beat him we have to beat them

Especially, there's a lot of love between Jalen Brunson and Tyrese Halliburton that I think is just really dope to see, considering the trolling that happens on the court. It's been so much fun. I think this series is definitely going to be one that we're talking about next year. As far as it going seven, if you're the Pacers, you don't want that. That cannot happen. No.

Especially, there's a lot of love between Jalen Brunson and Tyrese Halliburton that I think is just really dope to see, considering the trolling that happens on the court. It's been so much fun. I think this series is definitely going to be one that we're talking about next year. As far as it going seven, if you're the Pacers, you don't want that. That cannot happen. No.

I think they have to absolutely win at home. you know, game six, close it out because there's pressure on them now, right?

I think they have to absolutely win at home. you know, game six, close it out because there's pressure on them now, right?

Pressure's on them. They need to close the door. They need to go out and they need to dominate, you know, from the opening tip of the game. Because if they don't, I don't know that they come back to Madison Square Garden and make it happen. I really don't.

Pressure's on them. They need to close the door. They need to go out and they need to dominate, you know, from the opening tip of the game. Because if they don't, I don't know that they come back to Madison Square Garden and make it happen. I really don't.

Like, I know that it's the Knicks who are on the brink of elimination, but it feels very much so like game six could put the Pacers, you know, in that... In that very tough spot.

Like, I know that it's the Knicks who are on the brink of elimination, but it feels very much so like game six could put the Pacers, you know, in that... In that very tough spot.

they came out completely flat. I mean, there was no aggression. There was no force. There was nothing. The game got away from them pretty much right away. In the beginning, I thought they weren't playing well, but they proved me right even more so as the game went on.

they came out completely flat. I mean, there was no aggression. There was no force. There was nothing. The game got away from them pretty much right away. In the beginning, I thought they weren't playing well, but they proved me right even more so as the game went on.

Tyrese Halliburton actually, as he typically does after a game like that, he took it all on himself. I didn't set the tone. I didn't set the pace. I wasn't aggressive. Pascal Siakam, same thing. Like everybody who we heard from tonight, you know, we heard from Halliburton, Siakam, Benedict Matherin. Andrew Nimhard, everyone was saying the exact same thing is we didn't come out with enough force.

Tyrese Halliburton actually, as he typically does after a game like that, he took it all on himself. I didn't set the tone. I didn't set the pace. I wasn't aggressive. Pascal Siakam, same thing. Like everybody who we heard from tonight, you know, we heard from Halliburton, Siakam, Benedict Matherin. Andrew Nimhard, everyone was saying the exact same thing is we didn't come out with enough force.

We didn't come out aggressively. We let them set the tone and they controlled it from the beginning, which obviously is a very accurate assessment of the game. Even Rick Carlisle, you know, he gave credit to the Knicks. Like he, you know, wasn't just putting it on the Pacers playing poorly, but the Knicks played well. Yeah.

We didn't come out aggressively. We let them set the tone and they controlled it from the beginning, which obviously is a very accurate assessment of the game. Even Rick Carlisle, you know, he gave credit to the Knicks. Like he, you know, wasn't just putting it on the Pacers playing poorly, but the Knicks played well. Yeah.

Halliburton actually said that, you know, that the basics as far as what the Knicks have been doing was still there. They obviously didn't want to give too much credit to the Knicks for keeping them out of the game. But I mean, the Knicks defensively, as you already said, never let the Pacers get in rhythm. None of the starters did really well.

Halliburton actually said that, you know, that the basics as far as what the Knicks have been doing was still there. They obviously didn't want to give too much credit to the Knicks for keeping them out of the game. But I mean, the Knicks defensively, as you already said, never let the Pacers get in rhythm. None of the starters did really well.

In fact, the highest score, you know, for the Pacers was Benedict Matherin, who came off the bench yeah that is a huge deal um typically their depth is always a positive but when the starters cannot get going the depth doesn't really matter that much

In fact, the highest score, you know, for the Pacers was Benedict Matherin, who came off the bench yeah that is a huge deal um typically their depth is always a positive but when the starters cannot get going the depth doesn't really matter that much

where did we put them in the stadium they're not courtside but they're somewhere in the lower bowl they're walking around like dave dufour in a summer league event like just lurking in the lower bowl you never know when they're gonna come out right well you can spot that head from a mile away yeah so these are teams like dallas for obvious reasons um you know the pedigree the talent as we've talked about on our show i think like luke is built for the playoffs oh yeah um

where did we put them in the stadium they're not courtside but they're somewhere in the lower bowl they're walking around like dave dufour in a summer league event like just lurking in the lower bowl you never know when they're gonna come out right well you can spot that head from a mile away yeah so these are teams like dallas for obvious reasons um you know the pedigree the talent as we've talked about on our show i think like luke is built for the playoffs oh yeah um

And then you get teams, I think in the West, there's a couple question mark teams. Denver being the champ a couple years ago, kind of struggling, but it's always like the big question is always like Jamal Murray, Michael Porter Jr. Are they going to show up and look like all-stars? Are they going to get lost in the shuffle? What happens when they start clicking?

And then you get teams, I think in the West, there's a couple question mark teams. Denver being the champ a couple years ago, kind of struggling, but it's always like the big question is always like Jamal Murray, Michael Porter Jr. Are they going to show up and look like all-stars? Are they going to get lost in the shuffle? What happens when they start clicking?

They have that home court advantage. They have that guy, you know, like Nikola Jokic.

They have that home court advantage. They have that guy, you know, like Nikola Jokic.

What's going on? Like 35-13. You watch a game with him. he has like 32 points, 12 rebounds, seven assists. You're like, that wasn't that good of a game.

What's going on? Like 35-13. You watch a game with him. he has like 32 points, 12 rebounds, seven assists. You're like, that wasn't that good of a game.

Yep. So there's, there's these interesting teams that are lurking. Um, I've never been super high on this iteration of Phoenix. I don't think they have enough. But even Phoenix, this far into the season, is kind of like, well, what if they clicked?

Yep. So there's, there's these interesting teams that are lurking. Um, I've never been super high on this iteration of Phoenix. I don't think they have enough. But even Phoenix, this far into the season, is kind of like, well, what if they clicked?

Can I throw a curveball back at you? Please. All right. I am lower on the Timberwolves because of their trade. Yeah, I actually think it's the place that Carl Anthony Towns went. That is another one of these teams. The Knicks have a crazy good offense right now. Right. Yep. What's going on with the defense? Is a Tom Thibodeau defense really going to go through the year and finish like 28th? Maybe.

Can I throw a curveball back at you? Please. All right. I am lower on the Timberwolves because of their trade. Yeah, I actually think it's the place that Carl Anthony Towns went. That is another one of these teams. The Knicks have a crazy good offense right now. Right. Yep. What's going on with the defense? Is a Tom Thibodeau defense really going to go through the year and finish like 28th? Maybe.

I don't know. They're a weird team. They don't have depth, but maybe they need to get players back. Maybe they need to get some of their bigs back. maybe that's going to change things for them because they're playing like six guys like 38 minutes a night in November which is the most Tibbs thing of all time he was built for the NBA Cup so teams like New York um and I'll leave it.

I don't know. They're a weird team. They don't have depth, but maybe they need to get players back. Maybe they need to get some of their bigs back. maybe that's going to change things for them because they're playing like six guys like 38 minutes a night in November which is the most Tibbs thing of all time he was built for the NBA Cup so teams like New York um and I'll leave it.

I have to come back to Memphis. I just don't think people realize sort of how weird and wonky and destructive, destructive Memphis is, but they're probably to your point, you know, like a lesser, like a West version of Cleveland. When you get into the playoffs, maybe that depth and that transition pace. I mean, they, they have, they're so far ahead in transition offense that,

I have to come back to Memphis. I just don't think people realize sort of how weird and wonky and destructive, destructive Memphis is, but they're probably to your point, you know, like a lesser, like a West version of Cleveland. When you get into the playoffs, maybe that depth and that transition pace. I mean, they, they have, they're so far ahead in transition offense that,

I would put them in this group as well. They might be on the lower end of it right now because, again, they're running like 11 deep in the regular season, which is super fun and it's awesome and wild. But how does that work in the playoffs? And I would want to see more, you know, if they if they when they're healthy.

I would put them in this group as well. They might be on the lower end of it right now because, again, they're running like 11 deep in the regular season, which is super fun and it's awesome and wild. But how does that work in the playoffs? And I would want to see more, you know, if they if they when they're healthy.

when Draymond plays, when Curry plays, these guys have missed some games to your defense, Dave. They've missed some games recently. Like when they're healthy, if they all play and they finish the season in those healthy games at like a 56 to 60 win pace, I think there's enough craziness in basketball that you can get them in this conversation as well.

when Draymond plays, when Curry plays, these guys have missed some games to your defense, Dave. They've missed some games recently. Like when they're healthy, if they all play and they finish the season in those healthy games at like a 56 to 60 win pace, I think there's enough craziness in basketball that you can get them in this conversation as well.

And I think that's part of what makes this so fun, because the last thing we haven't talked about yet is playoff coaching. And it's like, I trust Taylor Jenkins, but he doesn't have a ton of playoff coaching experience. Mark Dagnall. Mark Dagnall, I just think he's been fantastic as a coach. Joe Mazzulla, that team is so well coached. They're like a machine.

And I think that's part of what makes this so fun, because the last thing we haven't talked about yet is playoff coaching. And it's like, I trust Taylor Jenkins, but he doesn't have a ton of playoff coaching experience. Mark Dagnall. Mark Dagnall, I just think he's been fantastic as a coach. Joe Mazzulla, that team is so well coached. They're like a machine.

And you saw it through the playoffs and certainly in the finals. So maybe some of the differentiator with this group is like, how much coaching experience do you have? What kind of coaching chops do you have when you get into a playoff setting? But I just think, how many teams did we get in this lower bowl group of the arena? At least five, maybe six or seven.

And you saw it through the playoffs and certainly in the finals. So maybe some of the differentiator with this group is like, how much coaching experience do you have? What kind of coaching chops do you have when you get into a playoff setting? But I just think, how many teams did we get in this lower bowl group of the arena? At least five, maybe six or seven.

Yeah, I think I think those are the fun team. And we haven't even mentioned what happens if if Paulo Banqueiro comes back. Right. And somehow that whole thing is still this good. Exactly.

Yeah, I think I think those are the fun team. And we haven't even mentioned what happens if if Paulo Banqueiro comes back. Right. And somehow that whole thing is still this good. Exactly.

With the audience, Dave said, do you want to come do the podcast? I said, no, I cannot do the podcast.

With the audience, Dave said, do you want to come do the podcast? I said, no, I cannot do the podcast.

And then he said, well, we're going to play a game. And I said, where do when do I come on? At what time should I come on to play this arbitrary game where we talk about basketball?

And then he said, well, we're going to play a game. And I said, where do when do I come on? At what time should I come on to play this arbitrary game where we talk about basketball?

Wow. So I guess that's a good place to start, because one thing we do a lot on our show and whenever we have this conversation is we have what Cody likes to call my co-host. He likes to say the inner circle. Right. Right. Who is in the inner circle? And these are teams that we really think are strong title favorites.

Wow. So I guess that's a good place to start, because one thing we do a lot on our show and whenever we have this conversation is we have what Cody likes to call my co-host. He likes to say the inner circle. Right. Right. Who is in the inner circle? And these are teams that we really think are strong title favorites.

that are going to emerge at the end of the year, high probability that if you took your inner circle and you ran the season 100 times, almost every time your inner circle is going to win a title. That's the idea. So for me right now, it's obviously Boston. You did not say Oklahoma City. I would put them... In the obvious category, I should have very, very deep in the circle. Yes, exactly.

that are going to emerge at the end of the year, high probability that if you took your inner circle and you ran the season 100 times, almost every time your inner circle is going to win a title. That's the idea. So for me right now, it's obviously Boston. You did not say Oklahoma City. I would put them... In the obvious category, I should have very, very deep in the circle. Yes, exactly.

And then I'm not even sure I'd put I don't know right now if I have a third team in there. I really don't.

And then I'm not even sure I'd put I don't know right now if I have a third team in there. I really don't.

Well, I think Cleveland's great. I think they're great. I think they're going to win a lot of games. I think they're going to be good in the playoffs. The question is, when we get down to the end of the year. You know, are they able to compete in a playoff series with a team like the Celtics in the Eastern Conference? I don't know if they're going to have another team.

Well, I think Cleveland's great. I think they're great. I think they're going to win a lot of games. I think they're going to be good in the playoffs. The question is, when we get down to the end of the year. You know, are they able to compete in a playoff series with a team like the Celtics in the Eastern Conference? I don't know if they're going to have another team.

We can talk about whether we think there's another team from the East and that like real inner circle spot. But I think Cleveland's very, very good. I'm just not quite sure yet. Mathematically, if they go in.

We can talk about whether we think there's another team from the East and that like real inner circle spot. But I think Cleveland's very, very good. I'm just not quite sure yet. Mathematically, if they go in.

Well, let me just stay with Cleveland for a second. Are you guys comfortable with them on the same line as the Celtics and even a team like OKC?

Well, let me just stay with Cleveland for a second. Are you guys comfortable with them on the same line as the Celtics and even a team like OKC?

Just below.

Just below.

Yeah. But like I said, I think the offense is real. I think they're going to be very good. I think they're going to win a ton of games. I think they'll be fine against lower echelon opponents in the first, maybe second round of the playoffs. But I've had this thing for a long time, guys, where I say, are you a two round team in the postseason or are you a four round team?

Yeah. But like I said, I think the offense is real. I think they're going to be very good. I think they're going to win a ton of games. I think they'll be fine against lower echelon opponents in the first, maybe second round of the playoffs. But I've had this thing for a long time, guys, where I say, are you a two round team in the postseason or are you a four round team?

Because it's one thing to be able to win two playoff series in the NBA playoffs, but But to win double that, to win two more series, both times you almost always have to beat another championship level team. That's a different gear to get to. And I think Cleveland's been good enough right now that in my head, I'm like, well, they're flirting with it. Right. They're close. But no, I'm not ready.

Because it's one thing to be able to win two playoff series in the NBA playoffs, but But to win double that, to win two more series, both times you almost always have to beat another championship level team. That's a different gear to get to. And I think Cleveland's been good enough right now that in my head, I'm like, well, they're flirting with it. Right. They're close. But no, I'm not ready.

I'm not comfortable enough to put them there yet. What would it take to get them there for you?

I'm not comfortable enough to put them there yet. What would it take to get them there for you?

Part of it would be continuing the run. I think, you know, teams over the course of history who have dominant regular seasons, even if they have a lesser level in the playoffs, are still fantastic. Like if you win 65 games, you're a contender. So that's part of it.

Part of it would be continuing the run. I think, you know, teams over the course of history who have dominant regular seasons, even if they have a lesser level in the playoffs, are still fantastic. Like if you win 65 games, you're a contender. So that's part of it.

Another part of it for me, and I'm not sure we'll see it just because they're having so much success on the regular season, would be something like Ben sits at home at night and he goes, what's going to happen to Evan Mobley and Jared Allen when teams try to stretch them out in the postseason? We actually saw this in the first meeting with the Celtics, right?

Another part of it for me, and I'm not sure we'll see it just because they're having so much success on the regular season, would be something like Ben sits at home at night and he goes, what's going to happen to Evan Mobley and Jared Allen when teams try to stretch them out in the postseason? We actually saw this in the first meeting with the Celtics, right?

We're just like, gosh, you got a five out team on one end that can kind of attack this double big thing. Cleveland's still built like an hourglass. They still have the two small guards. They put Garland into pick and roll constantly. And then on the other end, you have the bigs. And then on the flip side, the Celtics like to switch everything, which took away a lot of the guards.

We're just like, gosh, you got a five out team on one end that can kind of attack this double big thing. Cleveland's still built like an hourglass. They still have the two small guards. They put Garland into pick and roll constantly. And then on the other end, you have the bigs. And then on the flip side, the Celtics like to switch everything, which took away a lot of the guards.

Let me try to speak English. The Cavs guards. That's tough to say. The Cavs guards. took away a lot of their actions that they like to run that create advantages. So I think over the course of the year, if I could also see something that's like, oh, Evan Mobley is shooting threes as a small ball center, then something might click a little more for me.

Let me try to speak English. The Cavs guards. That's tough to say. The Cavs guards. took away a lot of their actions that they like to run that create advantages. So I think over the course of the year, if I could also see something that's like, oh, Evan Mobley is shooting threes as a small ball center, then something might click a little more for me.

No, no, but I want to know why do they? Well, I think OKC is structurally built for everything we're talking about in the playoffs strategically. They can play super small. They can play big. They can play with a stretch big. They can play with iHeart, who's a slightly different option. So you can go Jumbo and Bruiser, those kinds of lineups.

No, no, but I want to know why do they? Well, I think OKC is structurally built for everything we're talking about in the playoffs strategically. They can play super small. They can play big. They can play with a stretch big. They can play with iHeart, who's a slightly different option. So you can go Jumbo and Bruiser, those kinds of lineups.

They already showed last year kind of the template that they're going to have in the postseason. I mean, they played Dallas neck and neck in a great series and Dallas made it to the finals. So I do think OKC is kind of built to have fewer questions when we get to the playoffs.

They already showed last year kind of the template that they're going to have in the postseason. I mean, they played Dallas neck and neck in a great series and Dallas made it to the finals. So I do think OKC is kind of built to have fewer questions when we get to the playoffs.

And, you know, if we stack up like best players in a playoff series, which I'm not a I'm not a huge fan of, not a huge fan of. I think I wrote the book going against that. But Shea last year came to the party and he's like, hello, I belong. Tough shots, like all kinds of defenses you want to throw at me. You're going to get a certain level for me.

And, you know, if we stack up like best players in a playoff series, which I'm not a I'm not a huge fan of, not a huge fan of. I think I wrote the book going against that. But Shea last year came to the party and he's like, hello, I belong. Tough shots, like all kinds of defenses you want to throw at me. You're going to get a certain level for me.

And then I mean, the other guys in OKC, I just think. Jalen Williams and Chet Holmgren are kind of built for playoff basketball. We'll see.

And then I mean, the other guys in OKC, I just think. Jalen Williams and Chet Holmgren are kind of built for playoff basketball. We'll see.

I don't know about inner circle. I really don't. I, there are a bunch of teams in the West and we can talk about them that I think are really good. Mavs, Grizzlies, Thunder.

I don't know about inner circle. I really don't. I, there are a bunch of teams in the West and we can talk about them that I think are really good. Mavs, Grizzlies, Thunder.

But that's that's such a good call. Also depressing because I think people still don't realize how good Memphis is. Right. I think as of today, John Morant in the games he's played, they're like plus 15 per 100 when he's on the floor, which is the fifth highest net rating of any player in the league, regardless of minutes.

But that's that's such a good call. Also depressing because I think people still don't realize how good Memphis is. Right. I think as of today, John Morant in the games he's played, they're like plus 15 per 100 when he's on the floor, which is the fifth highest net rating of any player in the league, regardless of minutes.

yeah when you have a guard who gets two feet in the paint every time as often as he does this is what i mean new york we're seeing it with the knicks and what jalen brunson is able to pull off there like if you get two feet in the paint consistently you just create good offense for them yeah yeah this next tier though is almost in a year like this where you have a lot of parity the league has continued to shift we've gone through this pace and space revolution i'm almost more fascinated by this sort of like next group of

yeah when you have a guard who gets two feet in the paint every time as often as he does this is what i mean new york we're seeing it with the knicks and what jalen brunson is able to pull off there like if you get two feet in the paint consistently you just create good offense for them yeah yeah this next tier though is almost in a year like this where you have a lot of parity the league has continued to shift we've gone through this pace and space revolution i'm almost more fascinated by this sort of like next group of

I credit the Knicks. Like the Knicks played incredibly well tonight, you know, and it's very hard to win a closeout game. It's even harder to win a closeout game in Madison Square Garden. Oh, yeah. Right. Like you got the energy of the crowd behind the Knicks and the crowd was into it from the beginning of the game.

I don't think mentally it looked like the Pacers were playing, you know, the way they normally do. And they let the Knicks dominate the pace of that game completely. You know, Halliburton was like, oh, I didn't get downhill, you know, but I don't even know if... The Knicks were really giving too much space.

I mean, maybe they were, maybe they weren't. I just know that it felt at least, you know, in the arena that the Pacers weren't their usual pesky, speedy selves. I'm so used to seeing them flying around the court, you know, moving very, very fast. And that wasn't happening. TJ McConnell, who I love to point out, is really aggravating if you're playing against him. And that's to his credit.

That wasn't happening tonight. I think Aaron Neesmith's ankle might be a bit of an issue, you know, and cause him to slow down a little bit. Because, you know, every time you get on a plane, that ankle is going to swell a little bit. It just was not clicking for the Pacers at all. No matter, you know, what Rick Carlisle was trying to do as far as lineups. Jarris Walker was in the game.

In fact, when he hit his three pointer, I think the entire section next to me said, who is that at the exact same time? Yeah. To Rick Carlisle's credit, he was definitely trying anything and everything to kind of motivate these guys to pick up the pace, to be more aggressive. And it just wasn't happening. I mean, but again, credit to the Knicks.

You know what? I would say... First of all, it's been so much fun. The energy in both arenas has been incredible. The energy from both teams, with the exception, obviously, of the Pacers tonight has been incredible. It's been hard fought with like these games have been close.

you know obviously not counting tonight they've been close there's there's been a ton of it's like on the court you can tell right like everybody wants it but off the court in their post-game interviews they clearly respect one another 100 and that is I think what's making it even cooler is these guys are like hey that guy is amazing I gotta beat him we have to beat them

Especially, there's a lot of love between Jalen Brunson and Tyrese Halliburton that I think is just really dope to see, considering the trolling that happens on the court. It's been so much fun. I think this series is definitely going to be one that we're talking about next year. As far as it going seven, if you're the Pacers, you don't want that. That cannot happen. No.

I think they have to absolutely win at home. you know, game six, close it out because there's pressure on them now, right?

Pressure's on them. They need to close the door. They need to go out and they need to dominate, you know, from the opening tip of the game. Because if they don't, I don't know that they come back to Madison Square Garden and make it happen. I really don't.

Like, I know that it's the Knicks who are on the brink of elimination, but it feels very much so like game six could put the Pacers, you know, in that... In that very tough spot.

they came out completely flat. I mean, there was no aggression. There was no force. There was nothing. The game got away from them pretty much right away. In the beginning, I thought they weren't playing well, but they proved me right even more so as the game went on.

Tyrese Halliburton actually, as he typically does after a game like that, he took it all on himself. I didn't set the tone. I didn't set the pace. I wasn't aggressive. Pascal Siakam, same thing. Like everybody who we heard from tonight, you know, we heard from Halliburton, Siakam, Benedict Matherin. Andrew Nimhard, everyone was saying the exact same thing is we didn't come out with enough force.

We didn't come out aggressively. We let them set the tone and they controlled it from the beginning, which obviously is a very accurate assessment of the game. Even Rick Carlisle, you know, he gave credit to the Knicks. Like he, you know, wasn't just putting it on the Pacers playing poorly, but the Knicks played well. Yeah.

Halliburton actually said that, you know, that the basics as far as what the Knicks have been doing was still there. They obviously didn't want to give too much credit to the Knicks for keeping them out of the game. But I mean, the Knicks defensively, as you already said, never let the Pacers get in rhythm. None of the starters did really well.

In fact, the highest score, you know, for the Pacers was Benedict Matherin, who came off the bench yeah that is a huge deal um typically their depth is always a positive but when the starters cannot get going the depth doesn't really matter that much

He doesn't think so, and neither do his teammates. Actually, after the game, Rick Carlisle, Coach Rick Carlisle, was asked about the athletics player poll. And in addition to being very fiery about it, he called it, Shameful, actually, he demanded to see the faces of the players who said that about his star. It was a very impassioned response from a coach who clearly backs his guy.

Tyrese also addressed the overrated votes. By saying he's just going to be himself. He, you know, he said he doesn't he doesn't give I'll say a damn about what anyone thinks of him. And, you know, he understands that, you know, people may not like what he's doing or who he is, but he's going to continue to be himself. And Pascal Siakam came in and supported that.

You know, he said he's he backs everyone back their guy here. So if he's overrated, people in Indiana do not agree.

Tyrese Halliburton continues to reiterate that they don't like each other. He said it before this series began. He said it tonight after the game. They don't like each other. There's probably a little bit of like game respects game, of course, but they don't like each other. And it was obvious all the way down both benches.

I would say in game one, but especially tonight, you know, there was a dust up on the court. The players were hyping up the crowd who were really in support of the beef. I actually turned to someone sitting by me and I was like, hey, this crowd wants the smoke. Like they were chanting, you know, Bobby sucks. Even if Bobby Portis wasn't touching the ball. It's a nice change.

After practice on Monday, I wrote how this team isn't a team that relies on one player to sort of be the star to carry the team. Right. Obviously, Halliburton is the guy, but they have a balanced scoring attack. They support each other. There is a real effort from everyone on the team to go out there and, you know, shut things down. Nimhard.

I can't even, I mean, he had a slump going into the end of the regular season. In the postseason, he got activated, right? He's playing well on both sides of the court. He's putting the clamps on Damian Lillard, who people expected to come out tonight and light it up. There was a real expectation, you know, because with Lillard on the court, he kind of opens up Milwaukee's offense.

He changes their ability to have spacing on the court. And none of that happened. In fact, I don't know if you guys even noticed, he only had 11 points well into the second half of the game. His three-pointer very late in the game came when Milwaukee was trying to fight their way back. But by then, the Pacers were like, it's too late.

They're going to have to slow Indiana down. Indiana's plan of attack from the beginning has been we are young and we are fast and we're just going to fly around the court. And that's exactly what they've been doing. They've been getting up and down the court really fast. And it makes sense. Milwaukee look tired, which is absolutely Rick Carlisle and his team's game plan. Tire them out.

Tyrese Halliburton talked about the wear down effect. They are fully aware that that is the way to get the bucks to show weakness. Like they know there's no really stopping someone like Giannis. But what you do is if you slow everyone else down, or I should say, keep them you know, sped up and keep them from scoring well, that's, that's going to be the plan.

So I guess Milwaukee has to figure out how do we slow this team down, but also how do we keep you? Cause you got six guys you have to keep out of double figures, right? Indiana has consistently had six guys in double figures this series. So I don't really know how you get six people, you know, to all be, to all have a bad night at once, but that's gotta be the goal.

In the beginning, I really was like, okay, this is gonna be, this is gonna go six or seven. They're gonna stretch this out. Giannis is gonna wanna, you know, want to fight because he didn't play, you know, last year's playoffs. This is gonna be a huge deal. But after tonight, I don't know that six or seven is is going to be the number of games in this series.

If the Pacers continue to come out and just attack them and send a crowd the way they've been doing. Right. Like they know all they have to do is send two and three. And guys are switching off and making sure that Giannis. even though he's going to score, he's got to fight for it, right?

He's got to put his shoulder down, and he's having to dig into multiple guys just to even get the shots he's getting. So defensively, Indiana has been, from everything I've heard in the time I've been here and been around the team, they're sticking to the plan, and they haven't kept it a secret. As far as Lillard goes, Doc Rivers said pregame he didn't even know what to expect

from Lillard in, you know, the Tuesday night game. So I'm assuming, you know, because Lillard really didn't have a ton of time to get ready for this game. Yeah. That on Friday, we'll see a completely different performance from him because he'll have had more time to, you know, get his legs and get in some practice time.

And, you know, tonight will probably be a big recovery night for him considering, you know, what he just experienced with the diagnosis.

And something that I thought was interesting that I'm sure you all will too, is most officials are former athletes and they're getting in five miles per game, running up and down the court with elite athletes, five miles per game.

Absolutely. It's even in my lead. I mentioned that like with the proliferation of gambling, referees are, they're under threat. Something that James Williams said in our conversation was social media is not a safe place for an official. In fact,

early in his career, which obviously was in the pre, you know, boom of social media, but he remembers just feeling so horrible about a call in a game and the things that were said to him that he started wanting to work harder and wanting to be better and wanting to make fewer mistakes. Unfortunately, that's not how it goes for a lot of people. You get berated and

one time too many you get cursed out you get your life threatened one time too many and you're like i'm out of here i'm not doing this and on the lower levels they're getting it from parents right like parents think they know the game parents and i'm not saying parents don't know the game but you you all know what i'm getting they don't no they don't no i'll say it they don't yeah i used to tell them that uh when i coached high school i used to tell them that at the beginning of the year

So go ahead. But that's what they experience, right? They experience exactly what you and other coaches experience is parents telling them how to do their jobs. So imagine it when you're at the NBA level, you got thousands of people watching on TV, live streams. on social media, in the arena. And one mistake, you already have the weight of this could impact the game.

This could impact the outcome of the game. You know, this could impact player relationships. But then you have this idea that I could be threatened and harmed, you know, after this. And so James talked about like wanting to not only teach the basics of how to do this job, but how to steel yourself out

to be able to sort of handle all of the outside noise and getting access to him to go back to your earlier questions, you know, was I really had to ask the MBA, uh, for permission to speak to him. Um, And I explained what the story was about. And, you know, he had to get clearance as well. It was a it was a process.

It wasn't something that I was able to just sort of call him up and say, hey, can we talk about this? It was a it was a process. And in that process, I learned so much. I actually have a greater respect for people who opt into being an official because it is a service job and people in service jobs do not get thanked.

So the rule book, the NBA rule book is 75 pages, right? So this is 75 pages of rules that all of these referees have to know. So you have to learn this, but they have no participation in the making of the rules. The way James explained it is the rules are made by lawyers, right? So it is not someone who is on the court looking at a game in flow.

It is made by someone who is just saying this is what we don't want in the game. Right. These are the things that we don't want to happen. So not only do you not help create the rules, but you have to have the mind to store that. how many rules are on 75 pages y'all? Like they've gotta be, it's gotta be a ton.

There's gotta be a ton of them. So your, so your, your body has to be able to run five miles a game. You gotta be able to keep your feet in position. You gotta sequence your eyes. You gotta follow the play and you gotta run through a 75 page rule book as this is happening, right?

This is a mentally and physically taxing role on the court that we mostly don't pay attention to until something happens. Right. I just thought that was really fascinating that there is no participation from officials in court. What is, you know, the part of officiating that matters? The rules.

Absolutely. Something that came up a lot in my conversations because I didn't just talk to James. Right. I talked to Monty McCutcheon of the NBA. I talked to other people at Refmasters and I talked to someone who is using Refmasters to sort of help improve herself as a referee. And what I thought was interesting was everyone mentioned up, down, rebound.

So now whenever I'm watching a game, I'm looking at up, down, rebound. Right. Because I want to see what they're seeing. That's not something that I really as a normal watcher, you know, I'm like paying super close attention to. But they talk about how like what they're watching, where they have to be standing, the way their bodies have to be positioned. for that one thing.

That's not including everything else.

I feel like I would not give a good explanation for that.

So as it was explained to me, when a player goes up, right, for the rebound, you're watching not only their hands, but you're watching their feet and you have to watch everyone around them. Right. So you can't just watch the ball. So your eyes have to go. I'm sorry. I'm using my hands as if people can see me on YouTube.

So so your eyes have to go up, down, back to the ball incredibly quickly because you have to have this sequence of events. in your mind with your eyes. So you can make the correct call, whether this person is touched, whether there's, you know, someone sticks a hand out or whatever. And now that I've heard that I start looking, you never realize how many hands are going toward the ball.

So you're watching who's got the ball. You're watching for possession. You're watching for who taps it. You're watching for the slightest alteration of the movement of the the ball and it happens in seconds.

That was great.

Thank you. I'm very excited to be here. Thank you for reading the piece as well.

I couldn't answer any questions as to why the NBA isn't doing it, but I know that, you know, this program, this app was created by two NBA referees and they got the idea in the bubble.

I tried to kind of push as to like what in the bubble made that, you know, a thought considering there weren't fans there to go at them the way they are now, but they had the idea in the bubble and it was James Williams, who people call Gucci and Kane Fitzgerald, who is now in Secaucus at the main, you know, officiating center for the NBA. And their idea was, Hey,

We need constant and consistent and updated training. We don't write the rules. We're not a part of the rules making process, but it's our job to litigate them, so to speak. And this whole idea is getting people properly trained on positioning and sequencing and how to use your eyes to make better calls.

Well, I have to start by telling you where I found out about Ref Masters. I found out about it in the most unconventional way, which is typically how I get a lot of ideas, to be honest, just random conversations. But I went to a women in sports panel at a Soho house here in Chicago, and the woman sitting next to me happened to be the executive vice president of Ref Masters.

And we got to chatting, you know, how you are when you're in a social context and we're just chatting and she gives me her card. I give her my card and we're talking about what they do. And I found it incredibly interesting, not only as a writer who attends tons of games and I've been, you know, to every sport on a professional level, I've covered to a certain degree.

And there's always a complaint about officiating, no matter the level, no matter the league. And so the fact that these people saw a need and said, OK, how can we impact this? And some of the big parts of officiating is data. I don't think the average fan considers that it's data. How much is this happening? How often are we making this call? Where are we standing when we're making this call?

What exactly should I be looking at? for this to be correct or accurate. And then you officiate the offense differently than the defense. So you have to know the flow of the game. You have to kind of know a player's tendencies. You have to know the rule book. There's just all this stuff on top of that. And as she and I got to talking, I was like, okay, this is amazing.

This is sort of a pulling back of the curtain that the average person doesn't get. Instead, we get the mistakes or we get the good calls or we get the game impacting things or we get the players flipping out. We get the technicals. We don't know what goes into it.

where did we put them in the stadium they're not courtside but they're somewhere in the lower bowl they're walking around like dave dufour in a summer league event like just lurking in the lower bowl you never know when they're gonna come out right well you can spot that head from a mile away yeah so these are teams like dallas for obvious reasons um you know the pedigree the talent as we've talked about on our show i think like luke is built for the playoffs oh yeah um

And then you get teams, I think in the West, there's a couple question mark teams. Denver being the champ a couple years ago, kind of struggling, but it's always like the big question is always like Jamal Murray, Michael Porter Jr. Are they going to show up and look like all-stars? Are they going to get lost in the shuffle? What happens when they start clicking?

They have that home court advantage. They have that guy, you know, like Nikola Jokic.

What's going on? Like 35-13. You watch a game with him. he has like 32 points, 12 rebounds, seven assists. You're like, that wasn't that good of a game.

Yep. So there's, there's these interesting teams that are lurking. Um, I've never been super high on this iteration of Phoenix. I don't think they have enough. But even Phoenix, this far into the season, is kind of like, well, what if they clicked?

Can I throw a curveball back at you? Please. All right. I am lower on the Timberwolves because of their trade. Yeah, I actually think it's the place that Carl Anthony Towns went. That is another one of these teams. The Knicks have a crazy good offense right now. Right. Yep. What's going on with the defense? Is a Tom Thibodeau defense really going to go through the year and finish like 28th? Maybe.

I don't know. They're a weird team. They don't have depth, but maybe they need to get players back. Maybe they need to get some of their bigs back. maybe that's going to change things for them because they're playing like six guys like 38 minutes a night in November which is the most Tibbs thing of all time he was built for the NBA Cup so teams like New York um and I'll leave it.

I have to come back to Memphis. I just don't think people realize sort of how weird and wonky and destructive, destructive Memphis is, but they're probably to your point, you know, like a lesser, like a West version of Cleveland. When you get into the playoffs, maybe that depth and that transition pace. I mean, they, they have, they're so far ahead in transition offense that,

I would put them in this group as well. They might be on the lower end of it right now because, again, they're running like 11 deep in the regular season, which is super fun and it's awesome and wild. But how does that work in the playoffs? And I would want to see more, you know, if they if they when they're healthy.

when Draymond plays, when Curry plays, these guys have missed some games to your defense, Dave. They've missed some games recently. Like when they're healthy, if they all play and they finish the season in those healthy games at like a 56 to 60 win pace, I think there's enough craziness in basketball that you can get them in this conversation as well.

And I think that's part of what makes this so fun, because the last thing we haven't talked about yet is playoff coaching. And it's like, I trust Taylor Jenkins, but he doesn't have a ton of playoff coaching experience. Mark Dagnall. Mark Dagnall, I just think he's been fantastic as a coach. Joe Mazzulla, that team is so well coached. They're like a machine.

And you saw it through the playoffs and certainly in the finals. So maybe some of the differentiator with this group is like, how much coaching experience do you have? What kind of coaching chops do you have when you get into a playoff setting? But I just think, how many teams did we get in this lower bowl group of the arena? At least five, maybe six or seven.

Yeah, I think I think those are the fun team. And we haven't even mentioned what happens if if Paulo Banqueiro comes back. Right. And somehow that whole thing is still this good. Exactly.

With the audience, Dave said, do you want to come do the podcast? I said, no, I cannot do the podcast.

And then he said, well, we're going to play a game. And I said, where do when do I come on? At what time should I come on to play this arbitrary game where we talk about basketball?

Wow. So I guess that's a good place to start, because one thing we do a lot on our show and whenever we have this conversation is we have what Cody likes to call my co-host. He likes to say the inner circle. Right. Right. Who is in the inner circle? And these are teams that we really think are strong title favorites.

that are going to emerge at the end of the year, high probability that if you took your inner circle and you ran the season 100 times, almost every time your inner circle is going to win a title. That's the idea. So for me right now, it's obviously Boston. You did not say Oklahoma City. I would put them... In the obvious category, I should have very, very deep in the circle. Yes, exactly.

And then I'm not even sure I'd put I don't know right now if I have a third team in there. I really don't.

Well, I think Cleveland's great. I think they're great. I think they're going to win a lot of games. I think they're going to be good in the playoffs. The question is, when we get down to the end of the year. You know, are they able to compete in a playoff series with a team like the Celtics in the Eastern Conference? I don't know if they're going to have another team.

We can talk about whether we think there's another team from the East and that like real inner circle spot. But I think Cleveland's very, very good. I'm just not quite sure yet. Mathematically, if they go in.

Well, let me just stay with Cleveland for a second. Are you guys comfortable with them on the same line as the Celtics and even a team like OKC?

Just below.

Yeah. But like I said, I think the offense is real. I think they're going to be very good. I think they're going to win a ton of games. I think they'll be fine against lower echelon opponents in the first, maybe second round of the playoffs. But I've had this thing for a long time, guys, where I say, are you a two round team in the postseason or are you a four round team?

Because it's one thing to be able to win two playoff series in the NBA playoffs, but But to win double that, to win two more series, both times you almost always have to beat another championship level team. That's a different gear to get to. And I think Cleveland's been good enough right now that in my head, I'm like, well, they're flirting with it. Right. They're close. But no, I'm not ready.

I'm not comfortable enough to put them there yet. What would it take to get them there for you?

Part of it would be continuing the run. I think, you know, teams over the course of history who have dominant regular seasons, even if they have a lesser level in the playoffs, are still fantastic. Like if you win 65 games, you're a contender. So that's part of it.

Another part of it for me, and I'm not sure we'll see it just because they're having so much success on the regular season, would be something like Ben sits at home at night and he goes, what's going to happen to Evan Mobley and Jared Allen when teams try to stretch them out in the postseason? We actually saw this in the first meeting with the Celtics, right?

We're just like, gosh, you got a five out team on one end that can kind of attack this double big thing. Cleveland's still built like an hourglass. They still have the two small guards. They put Garland into pick and roll constantly. And then on the other end, you have the bigs. And then on the flip side, the Celtics like to switch everything, which took away a lot of the guards.

Let me try to speak English. The Cavs guards. That's tough to say. The Cavs guards. took away a lot of their actions that they like to run that create advantages. So I think over the course of the year, if I could also see something that's like, oh, Evan Mobley is shooting threes as a small ball center, then something might click a little more for me.

No, no, but I want to know why do they? Well, I think OKC is structurally built for everything we're talking about in the playoffs strategically. They can play super small. They can play big. They can play with a stretch big. They can play with iHeart, who's a slightly different option. So you can go Jumbo and Bruiser, those kinds of lineups.

They already showed last year kind of the template that they're going to have in the postseason. I mean, they played Dallas neck and neck in a great series and Dallas made it to the finals. So I do think OKC is kind of built to have fewer questions when we get to the playoffs.

And, you know, if we stack up like best players in a playoff series, which I'm not a I'm not a huge fan of, not a huge fan of. I think I wrote the book going against that. But Shea last year came to the party and he's like, hello, I belong. Tough shots, like all kinds of defenses you want to throw at me. You're going to get a certain level for me.

And then I mean, the other guys in OKC, I just think. Jalen Williams and Chet Holmgren are kind of built for playoff basketball. We'll see.

I don't know about inner circle. I really don't. I, there are a bunch of teams in the West and we can talk about them that I think are really good. Mavs, Grizzlies, Thunder.

But that's that's such a good call. Also depressing because I think people still don't realize how good Memphis is. Right. I think as of today, John Morant in the games he's played, they're like plus 15 per 100 when he's on the floor, which is the fifth highest net rating of any player in the league, regardless of minutes.

yeah when you have a guard who gets two feet in the paint every time as often as he does this is what i mean new york we're seeing it with the knicks and what jalen brunson is able to pull off there like if you get two feet in the paint consistently you just create good offense for them yeah yeah this next tier though is almost in a year like this where you have a lot of parity the league has continued to shift we've gone through this pace and space revolution i'm almost more fascinated by this sort of like next group of