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Sarah Paine

👤 Person
2465 appearances

Podcast Appearances

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It turns out that the possibilities for maritime and continental powers are a little different.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Basically, a small subset of countries can defend themselves primarily at sea, and that opens certain possibilities, and others can't, and that opens and closes certain possibilities.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And I'm going to talk at this story from Britain's point of view, the country with the 360, you can't get me mode.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And it's an instructive case for the United States of the possibilities and the perils of having this sort of position.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So that is my game plan today.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And you can look at the great peninsula of Europe where Britain is located.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And you can see this northern coastline for Britain, where it's uncomfortably close to the continent, and its enemies are sitting there.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's an interesting neighborhood.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So here's my plan.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

I'm going to talk about these continental problems that Britain has been dealing with.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

If you think about it, Britain was always fighting France, and then in 1871, Germany unifies, and then the problem's Germany.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And I'm going to pick up the story

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

in 1939 when things are really bad for Britain.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So I'm going to talk about first these continental problems.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then I'm going to talk about how Britain tried to deal with it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And first it has to do with getting sea control.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then once you can do that, finding some peripheral theaters where you might be able to fight and deal with the continental problem.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And you probably need allies.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And so those are the first four topics.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Then, so that was then, and now is now.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The continental problems now are China and Russia, and to see of what this case study might reveal about the ongoing things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

All right, so here's Britain, uncomfortably close to the continent.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

If it wants to get to Russia, which is its big ally in World War I and World War II, it's either got to go way up north around the Norwegian coastline,

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

and you get up into places like Murmansk and Archangel, or it's got to go way around through this very narrow sea, the Mediterranean, through the choke point of choke points, which is the Dardanelles and the Bosporus, into the Black Sea, and the main port back in the day was Odessa.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then if you compare French and British access to the high seas, France has got a pretty good coastline that just gets it right into the oceans.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But Germany, if it wants to send merchant traffic or naval traffic, it's got to go through these narrow seas.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then it's got to get by Britain, which is its big enemy in the two world wars, which is the dominant naval power.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So that's complicated.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

For Britain, if it wants to get to its empire back in the day, it wants to go through the Suez Canal.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That requires the cooperation of Spain, France, Italy, and if it wants to get to Russia, Turkey as well.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Well, Turkey didn't cooperate very well in either war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And if you think in World War II, well, fall of France, fascist sympathies of Spain, and then Italy as part of the access.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Britain is in real trouble.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And what do you do about this?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Britain has this big empire that it wants to protect.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's got a massive basing system, more bases than anybody else does, in order to protect this empire from this, which is a very resentful Germany.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Doesn't much like the Versailles settlement of World War I.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's a divided country in that a Polish corridor separates East Prussia.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And the Germans start trying to solve this problem.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Initially, they're taking Austria, the Sudeten-German parts of Czechoslovakia in 38.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Then they take all of Czechoslovakia in 39.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And they've already dealt with the Rhineland, which is supposed to be demilitarized per the terms of the Versailles Treaty.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Well, they ignored that, remilitarized in 36.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And this is important because there are a lot of industrial problems

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

resources and factories and things there.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It turns out that Hitler's plans require, it's not optional, it requires the resources not only of the Rhineland, but also Czechoslovakia and Poland and Romania, which is going to have the oil for them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So when you get to 1939, when Russia and Germany are dividing up Poland between them, this is the part of the history that Russians don't like to talk about, but it's exactly what they were doing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

This triggers World War II because the French and the British honor their alliance with the Poles to help deal with this.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

All right, so 1940, Britain's in a world of hurt.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It faces this massive blue problem, and then there's this growing green disaster.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's facing two continental powers, Germany and Russia, that both have these expansive empires they want to create.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They want to divide Europe and then the rest of the world.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Bad news for Britain.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But 1941, when Hitler decides he needs Russia too,

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then Russia decides, ah, the one that's attacking me is probably the major problem, not the other one.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So Stalin is gonna swap sides and he's gonna be coordinating with Britain.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So that's better from Britain's point of view than having two continental powers trying to deal with it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So now it's down to one.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So once the United States has gotten into the war, this is what the world looks like.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You have a big cancer in Europe.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

from the British point of view.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But it's all surrounded by oceans that Britain can get to, and a lot of allies and neutral states.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So Britain has access to those places.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then there's a separate cancer in Asia, where Japan's trying to work its magic.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And I say separate because the Axis never coordinated these two theaters.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

This is looking at the world from a maritime perspective.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

What you're looking at is all the oceanic routes that connect everything.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So Britain's problem is how to leverage the miracle of sea transport that basically can access you the whole world versus in the logistical nightmare of land transport where you have to, you can only drive through countries that'll let you drive through.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The seas give you mobility.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They give you access to theaters, markets, resources, allies.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And they also give you sanctuary at home if you're surrounded by them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It makes it harder for people to invade.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So Britain's trying to leverage all of that against the armies of the continental armies by it's going to try to strangle them economically, diplomatically, and militarily.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Now, the generation that led World War II in Britain, and not just Britain, but elsewhere, they were the conscripts of World War I, which was supposed to end all wars, and they knew full well as they're in the midst of World War II that it did not remotely achieve that promise.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And so they learned a whole series of lessons, and I'm going to do a comparison of what was done in World War I versus World War II.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And they are the greatest generation, not their children who claim the title.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Lesson number one is don't go beyond the culminating point of attack.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

What's that?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The terminology comes from Clausewitz.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Carl von Clausewitz, who is a Western guru on conventional land warfare, which means is if you're attacking in a battle, if you go too far, you'll weaken yourself because the enemy will counterattack, send you further backwards than you would have otherwise.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

In the case of World War I, you're sending young men over trenches into ongoing machine gun fire.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

What do you suppose is going to happen to them?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And this profligate waste of life in these assaults out of trenches, maybe you took a little territory in the first two weeks, but after that, nothing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

These offensives will go on for months and months, racking up hundreds of thousands of deaths.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

No more doing that in World War II.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And you can look the death figures for World War I and II.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So in World War I, the British army gets the multimillion-man army that they had coveted.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They deploy it on the main front from start to finish, and they chalk up twice as many deaths as they did in World War II when they have a peripheral strategy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

In World War II, they do make the mistake is they land the big army on the continent, opening move.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But it doesn't do well, and then they reassess, and they get that army off the continent immediately.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

This is what the Dunkirk evacuation is, where the French are covering the British as they're decamping from the continent, saving the British army.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And this is why France has such large casualties.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It is doing this, even though France is in the war that long.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So it's going to be a long wait before the British get back on the continent again.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Long wait also for the United States to get in the war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

There's no more going beyond the culminating point of attack.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The way diplomacy is run is also completely different.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

In World War I, there were exactly two conferences trying to coordinate things among the Entente powers.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And they're the December 1915 and November 1916 Chantilly conferences.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And all they are are the military heads of

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Well, the Russian Romanov dynasty is overthrown in early 1917.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It is too late.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

What happened in World War I is the Germans focused on the Western Front in 1914, Eastern Front 1915, back to the Western Front in 1916.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Well...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

In World War II, the idea is you want to squeeze them simultaneously from all fronts so they can't divert people back and forth.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And if you look at the coordination, it begins even before the United States is in the war with the ABC staff talks and then the Atlantic Conference, which yields the Atlantic Charter, which is talking about what war objectives are, unconditional surrender of Germany, and also what the post-war situation is going to look like.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And there's coordination not only among countries,

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

military leaders, but civil and military leaders as well.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

There's a combined command of U.S.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

and British forces.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

We have offices in each other's capitals, but we're also coordinating with the Russians so that you're setting up not only also war termination and what post-war institutions are going to be like to hold the peace.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's a completely different event from World War I,

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

When Russia falls out of the Entente because there are bread riots in St.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Petersburg and Russia could not supply its troops with adequate armaments, well, that's not going to happen in World War II.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Russia comes with a really large army.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Germany has another large army.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You've got to have a big army to deal with Germany's army.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So in World War I,

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

There is no Len Lise.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

No one would have thought of giving that much stuff to each other.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's like everybody first, and it's like, okay, everybody last doing that one.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The railways had not been completed in World War I. The Trans-Siberian doesn't get completed until 1916, and the Murmansk Railway, you can see Murmansk up there, isn't completed until early 1917.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The Romanov dynasty is gone.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's too late.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

In World War II,

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

three-quarters of Lend-Lease aid would go over those completed railway systems.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Now, to the British credit, they did try to break the blockade on Russia.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The way to get into Russia in those days and hook in with the railway system would be to get into the Black Sea and Odessa.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Because Russia had all the men, but they didn't have all the war material to fight.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So this is where the Gallipoli campaign comes in.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You could argue about whether you think it is good strategy or not, but it was miserably executed.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So first of all, it wasn't a joint operation.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

What's joint?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Joint means you're coordinating your different military services, in this case, Army and Navy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So what goes on?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The British Navy tries to run the Dardanelles for two months.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That does not work well.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Do you suppose the Ottomans might think something was up?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Yeah.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And when you get up there on the Dardanelles, all the high point, it's a very steep place.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So the Ottomans are all busy sorting that all out, getting troops in place.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So two months later,

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

When the British, New Zealand, Australian, and French troops all land on a given day, the Ottoms are there with a welcome party, essentially.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And that invasion stalemates in three days.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But they keep at it for eight months, taking 190,000 casualties, 55,000 of whom are dead men.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Totally insane.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

uh miserably executed and it comes with collateral damage as the british are trying to run the dardanelles with their navy this is when the ottomans are terrified of their christian subjects armenians and they're starting to round them up they're pulling them out of the army and then days before the landing the the turkish massacre of the armenians begin and between 1915 and 1923 1.5 million armenians are killed that's a lot of collateral damage all right

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The Normandy landings are a completely different event in World War II.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

This is another contested landing of trying to get armies in.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

First of all, the buildup of war material goes on for years to get all the landing vessels in, the equipment, the forces, all ready to go in Britain.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then the...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

A disinformation campaign kept the Germans completely disinformed.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They were expecting the landing to be at the Pas de Calais, which is the shortest place, and it's way off in Normandy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That worked.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So everybody lands on a day, and they're up and over and into places inland.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Another lesson learned.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The Royal Navy did not think that convoy duty was the manly thing to do.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They would convoy troop transports, but they wouldn't deal with the merchant marine until 1918.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Well, the Germans almost sank a terminal quantity of that stuff.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So the Navy is not thinking about the economic dimensions of warfare.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They're just focused on all the military things in World War I. In World War II, the British would be convoying even before they got in the war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Another difference between the World War II and World War I, at the end of World War I, if you look at the disposition of German troops, they're abroad.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They're occupying Belgium, Luxembourg, parts of France.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Nobody's in Germany.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Yes, the Germans had really lousy meals during the war, but German civilians did not feel the full brunt of what their government had done.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And therefore, Prime Minister Winston Churchill and President Franklin Roosevelt felt that it was really critical to have boots on the ground in Berlin to let the Germans know exactly what had happened to them and let them feel the war that they had inflicted on others in order to end it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Even so, the Allies win this thing and they wreck the continental powers, but they almost wreck themselves in the process.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's a pyrrhic victory for France and Britain.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It really weakens them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So World War II is going to be a different event.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So that's the being in this continental situation and the lessons learned from the last time around.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

and now for what the British did in World War II to deal with the continental problem.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The opening move of a maritime power in a really high-stakes war like this is typically blockade.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

What you want to do is cut your enemy off from the oceans and force it to cannibalize its own resources and those of occupied areas.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And because of the geographic position of a maritime power, you can quite often do this to a continental power on narrow seas.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And Britons were well aware that Germany is a trading country.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Most of its trade goes by sea, and it's also on these narrow seas.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So geographically and economically, it's really vulnerable to blockade.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And I get it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Germany gets alternate resources.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But they come in at much higher costs.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They're much more difficult.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And so that you're really putting a stress on the German economy and causing inflation and other things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But if you blockade, a continental power can't blockade you back.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Why?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They're on the narrow seas, so they can't deploy a surface fleet.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You'll sink it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And also, they can't...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

easily blockade a coastline that faces the open seas, the high seas.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You can do other things on narrow seas, but it's pretty tough.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So what do you do if you cannot blockade ships in port?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Well, then what you're going to try to do is commerce raiding.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

to try and sink things when they're out and about.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And that was what Germany did in World War II and why its occupation of France was so important.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Because once it took the French coastline, it then set up U-boat pens in Brest, Lorient, Saint-Nazaire, La Rochelle, and Bordeaux.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And they're going to be using these to fight the Battle of the Atlantic.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That's the game.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So maritime powers do blockade.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The response of continental power is commerce raiding.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then the maritime response to that is you're going to convoy your merchant ships.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Okay, as the war begins in Europe, the United States is not in, but Roosevelt is coordinating with Latin America to set up a big neutrality zone all around the Americas, 300 nautical miles.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then the Lend-Lease Act, also before U.S.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

belligerency, there's pieces of it which say the United States is going to take over British bases in Iceland and set up bases in Greenland.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Why do we care about those locations?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They're really important if you're going to send convoys.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

back and forth across the Atlantic, both to attack and to defend.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So that's what we're up to.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But even so, the Axis visits a real nightmare in the Battle of the Atlantic.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

A lot of things are going down.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So how does that all work?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So before the United States gets in at the very beginning, these U-boats turn the North Sea into a kill zone, and then Britain is losing an awful lot of stuff off of its shores and also off the shores of Africa.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And the Germans get really good at commerce raiding really fast.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And there's also the fall of France, which is a mess, because prior to the fall of France, Britain is only convoying just beyond Ireland.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Once you get the fall of France and all of those submarines on French territory, then the

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

400 miles further west, and they've lost an awful lot of destroyers between the fall of Norway and then the Dunkirk evacuation.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So they haven't got enough ships to convoy properly.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then the Germans are really creative.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Admiral Dunitz, who runs the submarine service at this point, he uses wolfpack tactics where you concentrate a whole bunch of submarines on a convoy, tack it at night, and bad things happen to the convoy overnight.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Also, the Germans have captured some of the British codes, so they have a sense of where the convoys are.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And they're sinking almost a terminal tonnage of this traffic.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

850,000 tons of Allied shipping is going down.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So this is Hitler's happy time when he's sinking an awful lot of stuff.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Then there's a big Greenland gap.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

This is where there's a lack of air cover.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And so you'll see a lot of things are going down in this Greenland gap.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But meanwhile, the British have gotten pretty good at espionage and they've captured a lot of Enigma machines.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Those are what the Germans are using to encrypt their messages.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Well, the British capture some machines, some rotors, some code books in 1940 and 41.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So by the summer of 1941,

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

through February 42, they can actually read the codes or some of them, decrypt them, so that within 36 hours, they can get the information out.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And this allows convoys to go, oh, Wolfpack there, we're going to do evasive routing of the convoys somewhere else.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And that may have saved up to 2 million tons of Allied shipping.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But meanwhile...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

For the Germans, General Rommel is in North Africa, and he's having troubles because he's supplied across the Mediterranean, and the British and friends are sinking too many of his supplies.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So Admiral Dunitz is told to reroute some of the U-boats in the Atlantic to go help General Rommel up in North Africa.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The United States isn't in the war, so all quiet on the

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

on the eastern seaboard.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So it's looking like it might be okay for the British for a while, except Donitz thinks something's up.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And so they add a fourth rotor to the Enigma machine.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And so the British are then blind again for most of 1942 until they can capture a four-rotor Enigma machine, all the rotors plus the code books.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It takes a while.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So they're in a world of hurt.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The United States enters the war, which you think would be good for Britain, except it produces Hitler's second happy time.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Why?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Because Admiral King, like his Royal Navy predecessors in the previous war, doesn't think convoying is the manly thing for naval officers to be up to.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So he's not for convoying.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Also, Americans don't turn off the lights.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And therefore, as merchant ships are going up the east coast of the United States, the lighting is just highlighting their silhouettes, making them much easier to sync.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And oh, by the way, in those days, Louisiana, Texas oil, which is supplying the east coast where a lot of American industry is, is coming up by ships on the eastern seaboard, and particularly by Cape Hatteras shoals, which are like 30 miles wide, become a total kill zone.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So Admiral...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

King rethinks it after losing more than a million tons of tonnage in the first three months of 1942 and goes, oh, gee whiz, maybe we should do convoys.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Yes.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And the United States does interlocking convoy system by May of 1942.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But then Dunitz just starts hunting things a little further south in the Caribbean.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So the Brits get their four-rotor Enigma machine, and they're able to decode things again.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But there's another problem.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The British think that there's something up with their admiralty codes in August of 1942, but they don't change them out until June of 1943.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

There was something wrong.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So, you can see this back and forth in the Battle of the Atlantic.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But eventually, the air cover gap is closed.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

This makes a tremendous difference.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

There are new technologies that are introduced that ruin Admiral Dunnett's.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Here's what happens.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The United States had radar.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Germans never did.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

American radar improved, so you can see through the fog.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The United States adds hedgehogs.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

What are they?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Not the cute little critters.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's rather, if you have a ship and you have hedgehogs, they deliver an elliptical spray of depth charges.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So anybody who's anywhere underneath you is in a world of hurt.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

In addition, the United States introduces two new classes of ships.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

one auxiliary aircraft carriers, little ones.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That means you're gonna have air cover for the entire journey, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

When you get beyond land-based air, then these folks will take over.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

In addition, small destroyer escorts were introduced instead of the big ones.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And these little ships,

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They've had all sorts of fun things on board, sonar, radar, depth charges, hedgehogs.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And so they transform commerce rating into a low-life expectancy profession.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So that in May of 43, the Germans lose 41 U-boats.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That's unsustainable.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That's a massive percentage of what they have.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And in one of those encounters...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

I think it's about 25 U-boats going after a convoy of 37 ships, sink nothing, lose three U-boats, plus another one damaged.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And on one of these U-boats is Admiral Dunitz's 19-year-old son, Peter, who dies in all of this.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So Dunitz, as a result, redeploys the U-boats out of the North Atlantic because it's unsustainable for Germany south of the Azores.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And yet there are problems going on with the Arctic convoy that takes a quarter of the Lend-Lease aid to Stalin.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And it gets called off for much of 42 and much of 43.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And I'll get into it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But that problem gets solved.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then you can see where all the kills are.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And the Germans are losing U-boats closer and closer to home shores.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So the Battle of the Atlantic is won by the Allies in part by reducing merchantman losses through convoys, evasive convoys, and also increasing U-boat losses through all these different technologies and also reading their mail, which helps to find them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But one could argue even more important,

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

was the civilian side of it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The United States' ability to just overwhelm Germany with the construction of U.S.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

naval and merchantmen.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Here are the stats.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Look what happens with naval strength.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

43, U.S.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Navy hulls and personnel are tripling.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That's quite a lot.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then naval hulls are gonna double in the next year.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That's a lot of ships and a lot of people in the Navy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Here's some more fun statistics.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So if you look in 1941 and go over,

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That's a bumper year for U-boat construction, 1941.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Going to 1942, really ugly if you're a merchant-ran crew member because it's double the number of tonnage of merchant ships that are being sunk.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But then keep moving over.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Look at merchant hull construction, up by four times.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And the next year, that's going to double.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And oh, let's look over for 1943.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Look how many U-boats are being sunk.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It goes way up with all those new technologies that I've just told you about.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So even though the Germans produce a lot more U-boats, the kill rate is so high that there's hardly any net gain.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then here's some more fun ways of looking at it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So you look at new ships, as soon as the United States gets in the war, new ship rates go up, up and away.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But the losses are really high through mid-1943.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then it's in mid-1943 that you can see the big divergence between construction and what's being destroyed.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And the Germans just can't keep up with this.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

There is just way too much stuff out there for them to sink.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

All right, so Admiral Dunitz did get one thing right.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

His boss there, Admiral Rader, who's the head of the Navy, had said that pocket battleships were the thing to use for commerce raiding, and Dunitz proves him wrong, that U-boats are the way to go.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And Hitler agrees, so he cashiers Rader, makes Dunitz the head of the...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

the Navy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then Sittler goes one step further.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

He scraps his surface fleet because it's useless to him in this war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You cannot deploy it in this kind of high stakes war, something that countries like China, surrounded by narrow seas, ought to think about.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

All right.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So if you look at why the Battle of the Atlantic turned out the way it did, is Germany and Britain have very different geographies.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And arguably, Germany bought the wrong navy before the war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It should have bought a lot of U-boats and forget the surface, minimize the surface boats that you're buying.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And so Britain could do things that Germany just plain couldn't.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That's just part of the geography.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So the effects of the blockade were really significant.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You're really straining the German economy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But the German commerce rating was also very effective.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The Germans almost sank...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

a terminal quantity of British trade.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's close because Britain is dependent not only on oil imports, resources, but about half of its food supply.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So the Germans tried and came close.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then you go, well, the counter-commerce rating strategy did work,

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

but there was touch and go back and forth, and it required a lot of things that had to be coordinated.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You needed the intelligence.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It really helps reading other people's mail.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You needed a whole set of new ship classes.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You need to be able to construct adequate quantities of naval hulls, merchant hulls.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You need to coordinate with allies.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You gotta get food and other things to Britain

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

There are a lot of things going on here.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You need air cover, the planes that are capable of doing it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So there are a lot of things going on.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Remove any one of them and the outcome may have been different.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

All right, so that's it on the commerce rating.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So once you command the Atlantic, which means that a sustainable amount of traffic is going to get through from the Allied powers, then you can start thinking about peripheral theaters.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Okay, what's a peripheral theater?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The main theater...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

is Russia in this war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Not what you think.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Why?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Because between two thirds and three quarters of German ground forces were always fighting Russia.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That means these other theaters, which are peripheral to the main theater,

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

take up between one quarter to one third of German forces.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That makes them peripheral.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Doesn't make them unimportant, but they're not the main theater.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And by the way, who would want to fight on the main theater if there are alternatives?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

People die on droves in the main theater.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So this man, Sir Julian Corbett,

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

very fine naval theorists of Britain who was heartbroken in World War I that Britain ignored his naval strategy, which was don't do the continental commitment and run the war through these peripheral operations.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And it wrecked his health.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But here's what, according to Corbett, are the prerequisites for a theater that makes a really good one for a peripheral operation.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

One, it has to be overseas so the enemy can't invade you or wreck your productive base.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Secondly, you need local sea control to get in there.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But that local sea access has got to be better than the land access because you want to have it easier for Britain to get in and out than it is for the enemy because then attrition rates will favor Britain.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Britain also should deploy a disposal force.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

What's that?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It means those forces you have who are in excess of what's necessary for homeland defense.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's not disposable force.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's rather a force that if everything goes south, you won't ruin the homeland.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But you can afford to risk it on potentially very risky but potentially war-changing operations.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

In addition, they've got to be joint operations.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Joint means cooperation of land and sea in this era.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And in order—you're going to come in by sea, you're going to supply by sea, but you'll be fighting on land.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You better coordinate all that.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And it's got to be combined operations.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

What does that mean?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Coordinating with allies.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You need friendly locals who are going to help you do all of this.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then you need to command your own forces.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Why?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Because you want to determine how they come in, how they go out.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

If it all goes badly, you want to be able to leave, which is what they did at Dunkirk.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

As much as the Continental Power might want to play this game, they cannot because they don't have the—

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

the requisite sea access to pull it off.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

All right.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The war winds up with Britain and the United States going through four phases.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Well, Britain, all four are some of the later ones of four peripheral theaters.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

First, the North Sea.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That's essential for British homeland defense.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And there are three keys to the North Sea, Scapa Flow, Strait of Dover, coast of Norway.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Britain always controlled the Strait of Dover and Scapa flow.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So Germany went after Norway to try and open things up that way.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And Norway is not an ideal peripheral theater for Britain because the Germans had better land and sea access to that theater.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They take Norway and then they set up sub bases at Bergen and Trondheim in addition to the ones they had at Kiel, Hamburg and the Heligoland.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

archipelago.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And these are the things that are ruining those Arctic convoys.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So that one does not go so well for Britain.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It winds up facing a totally hostile continental Europe shoreline.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The Axis has it all.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

All right.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

In the Mediterranean, there are certain keys that Britain controlled.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Gibraltar, that's access to the Atlantic.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Suez Canal, access to the Red Sea.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Crete,

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That's access to the Black Sea.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then the British had a fallback position, a midway point at Malta if things went really bad.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So the Germans attacked the fallback position because they're trying to bail out the Italians and fighting in North Africa.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And so they're trying to take Malta because whoever's got planes there

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

can cause convoys all kinds of problems or they can protect their own things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And so Malta is blockaded by the Germans.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's not relieved until the end of 1942.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So that is not great for Britain.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's threatening, well, its access to the empire.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And the problem for Britain is

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

is Italian belligerency.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Italians had been part of the Entente in World War I. Well, they're part of the Axis in World War II.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And three of these keys, Malta, Crete, and the Suez Canal, lie in the center of Italian admissions because they want an empire where they go down the Balkan coast and then they're going to go deep into Libya and Ethiopia to unify their empire around the Red Sea.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And so Mussolini kicks this thing off, except then he gets stuck in Greece.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And so the Germans have to come and bail them out.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They chase the British out of Greece.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The Britons are then on Crete, and then that falls to the Germans.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So the Britons are in a world of hurt.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The Suez Canal is under threat.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Think about it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Fall of Norway, fall of France, blockade of Malta, fall of Crete.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It is really bad news.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

However, when the United States gets into the war, the United States can help Britain retake some of these keys to the Mediterranean.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And this is what is going on in North Africa today.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So Admiral Dönitz had saved it initially, but after the United States is in with more assets, Dönitz's oil, the tanker supplying his oil, 60% of them are getting sunk because Malta holds and Malta is supplied and these tankers are getting bombed out of existence.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And so Rommel loses in North Africa, not because he's the inferior general, he's a better general, he's just not supplied.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And this is the key.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And once you take North Africa, that peripheral operation, it opens the opportunity to go into Sicily and then the rest of Italy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And once you get that going, there's a possibility to do the Normandy landing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So there's four different peripheral operations.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Some would argue that the air campaign over Germany was another peripheral campaign.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You're bringing the war home to Germans.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You're wrecking their productive base.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And also it's a major...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

help to the Russians.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Why?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Because once the British start bombing Berlin, Hitler calls off air squadrons from the Eastern Front, and these anti-aircraft guns can be used against tanks or aircraft.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

He pulls those back, and that means the Germans no longer own the skies of Russia, and you're no longer going to be taking hundreds of thousands of POWs.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Okay, so that's how the peripheral strategies worked out, but they're coordinated through allies, figuring out how to make all of them work.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And here are the stats on allies.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Alliances are additive.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You should ideally add up all the complementary capabilities of you and your friends and then share them, divvy them out in an optimal way to deal with things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Well, the Axis alliance was also additive in the sense that the Germans added to their GDP, the GDPs of all the places they occupied that pretty much accounted for GDP growth in Germany, except

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That whole way of doing things involves big occupation forces, which are big overhead of these conquered places, and you've also damaged them in the conquest, whereas the Allies are all game to help each other.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And also, when Germany took over continental Europe,

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's taking the big petroleum deficit zone because Europe doesn't produce petroleum.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The North Sea oil, those things hadn't been discovered in those days.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Yes, Romania has oil.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Yes, Hitler takes Romania.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But Romanian pipelines ran to pre-war customers.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And it's very difficult to find the manpower and the steel to reroute all of your pipelines in wartime.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So that's a whole other part of Hitler's problems.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So as we're putting together these complementary capabilities, the Russians have a huge army.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Most of the fighting takes place between Russia and Germany.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The Russians wreck the German army.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You know, millions of Russians and Germans are dying here.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But if you look at Operation Barbarossa, which is Germany's initial invasion of the Soviet Union, they suffer a nearly 30% casualty rate.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That's called catastrophic success.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You have too many successes like that, it'll be catastrophic.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And here's the mathematics of the main front.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Only two countries have really big armies, Germany and Russia.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Once the Germans maximize their territorial conquest, they've reduced Russian population, because they've conquered all these areas, to less than that of the United States.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Yet, nevertheless, the Russians mobilize twice the army that the United States does.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And if you look at the mathematics of munitions, the Russians on their lonesome produced more munitions than did Germany.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Once the United States gets in the war, we produce a hundred billion and whatever dollars it wasn't on munitions.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And in that period, the Germans produced less than 40 billion.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So bad news for Germany on all of these numbers.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The trick is getting the munitions to the men, whereas in World War I, that wasn't feasible.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But now these railway lines have been completed, and it's pouring in.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And the lend-lease aid, you look at it, wow, Britain's getting a lot, Russia quite a bit, but less, China nothing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

What's going on there?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You can only get aid in if there are ports and railways.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Japan blockaded China.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Proof of concept.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It can be done.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The Japanese did it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And you could not get stuff in.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So what the United States was trying to do, the British thought we were insane.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They're probably correct.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

We were flying things in over the Himalayas called the hump.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Great.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So you're going to fly in the aviation fuel to land that's going to be the same aviation fuel that's going to get you back and however many other bombers that you can deal with in China.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's not workable.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Okay.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And Russia, even though it got a lot less than Britain because it's not getting ships, but it's getting equally valuable, useful things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

For instance, Russia produces a lot of planes, but it didn't produce adequate high-octane aviation fuel.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The United States had loads of that.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The United States produced all kinds of vehicles, all kinds of rolling stock, locomotives.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And this is what Russia used to transport everything.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And the United States prevented Russia from going into a famine in the winter of 42, 43.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

We fed them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And this spam in a can, this is Hormel inner foods, contribution to the war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Everyone had so much spam during the war, they never, it's canned pork.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

No one ever wanted to see it again, but a little can of pork, it goes a long way and it doesn't spoil in a can.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And this lend-lease aid goes, a quarter of it goes up through Murmansk.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

A lot of it gets sunk up there and not reliable.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

A quarter of it goes through Persia, and then half of it goes over the Trans-Siberian.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And you go, well, what's this Axis alliance about?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Why aren't the Japanese sinking any of this, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Talk about a dysfunctional alliance.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

All right.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

This is to tell you what happened with those Arctic convoys.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You can see in 42, a tremendous number of them were sunk.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And this is fully laden ships with scarce war material.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So we in the British called them off for most of 42 and most of 43.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And Stalin was beside himself.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And so in 43, he's sending out feelers to Hitler, trying to do a separate piece.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And luckily, Hitler was not interested.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Hitler wasn't wasting his time with targeting empty ships on the home voyage.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

He was only going after the laden one.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Okay, so what is all this Lend-Lease-Aid support?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

What does it add up to?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Well, in Barbarossa, you got 3 million plus Russians going after 3 million Germans.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That's a lot of people to supply and tie up.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And as you watch that go, the Axis is killing Russians or making them POWs by the millions, but it's suffering 15% losses of its forces.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And it's going to add up so that when you get to August 41, that's when the siege of Leningrad, St.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Petersburg begins.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

By December, the Axis are within 25 miles of Moscow.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It is not looking good at all.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But once the United States is in the war,

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

you can start doing peripheral theaters like in North Africa.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then these casualties, while they aren't as significant as what's going on on the main front, it's cumulative.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So Stalingrad, the largest battle, the war is going on.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You got North Africa.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then when you have Kursk, which is the largest set piece battle, the war is big, big tank battle.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

This is when Sicily is happening and moving up the Italian peninsula.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And you can see the cumulative effects of these sequential operations and adding up

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

both the main theater and the peripheral theater, so that when you get to Normandy, the Russians are tying up 228 Axis divisions.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

There are only 58 Axis divisions all in Western Europe, Italy and everywhere.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So that's what makes Normandy possible, is the Russians really holding on to things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But when you start looking at the main front, the peripheral operations in Italy and then Normandy, and then you have additional fronts in France and then the Balkans, this continental cancer is into remission, that the Germans just can't sustain it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Okay, to summarize...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Before Britain had allies in this war, it was in a world of hurt.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It was just losing one thing after another.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But once you get the big continental buddy, don't dismiss the importance of a big continental buddy that is in the area where the fighting is taking place, not separated by the seas, but there with a big army.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That was essential.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then once the United States gets in with its big productive base, then you can really start doing things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Because if you can command the seas, that's what the Battle of the Atlantic is about, then you can connect the world and connect allies, theaters, resources.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So here are the operational effects of these peripheral operations.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You start with one where you can.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

If you win there, it'll open up a menu of more promising locations, all the while you're attriting your enemy's forces.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And also if you're doing it right, you're relieving pressure on the main front for Russia, which is doing the heavy lifting.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The strategic effects, if you can do this successfully,

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

is you're going to control resources for yourself, deny them for people you don't like, and this will help put time on your side.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You're strengthening your alliance system because you're essential to each other's survival as you coordinate things, and you're dividing your enemy's attentions among yours.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

multiple theaters overextending them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So you start by trying to contain the problem.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And as things go on, you try to roll it back and then you go for regime change.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So you're producing cumulative effects from these sequential operations.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So that's how it works.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Churchill, the great wit, talked about the hassles of dealing with allies, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

These are high-stakes discussions.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They don't always go pleasantly.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But his idea is there's only one thing worse than fighting with allies, and that's fighting without them, because they'll be toast.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You need these complementary capabilities, different locations, and coordinating it to gang up on your continental problem.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Also, if you stick with it,

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

you can help establish precedence laws, institutions that'll hold the peace after the war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So that's his take.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

All right, so I've given you a big exposition on maritime solutions to continental problems, which are in a global war, which is blockade and then countering their commerce rating, peripheral operations, massive production, and then joint and combined operations.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So that was then.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

How about now?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Okay, this is what NATO looks like.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And you can look at the United States with our western and eastern coasts that are unencumbered.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You wouldn't be able to blockade those.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The two narrow seas are the Sea of Labrador and the Caribbean.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But basically, hard to imagine that the United States Navy wouldn't be able to deploy in wartime.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And same thing true on the big peninsula of Europe.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Yeah, I get it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Turkey may not be able to deploy, but Spain, France, and Norway, they're these unencumbered coastlines.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They'll probably get their navies out.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Eurasia is a completely different story.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

This is where China and Russia live.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

No one's done this to them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

This is just the way it is.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's all of these narrow seas that become kill zones in wartime.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

I've described it to you how it works.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And I get it, there's the Arctic up there, but there's no economic activity or population.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So being able to run things in the Arctic doesn't do you very good, do you very much good.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So nature naturally contains both Russia and China.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's just the way it is.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So let's start with Putin here, Vlad the Bad, on his little Mongol pony, a continental mode of transport.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

If you live there, what can you get out of it?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's a long horse ride if you're going to do it that way.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So whom can he blockade?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Well...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

He's got one aircraft carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov, which has been under repair since 2018, a long time to be in the shop.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It required the largest dry dock that Russia has to repair it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then it flipped the dry dock, which then gashed the hull.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And there's been all sorts of charges of embezzlement, various fires on board.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's not getting repaired anytime fast.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And it's just like an occupational hazard vehicle.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

problem.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So that one's not doing him any good.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Putin has got two liquid playgrounds that he likes.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

One's the Black Sea.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Before he got involved with Ukraine, in theory, he could have blockaded, I guess, Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine, and Georgia if he wanted to.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That was why he's so interested in the Kursh Strait, which would blockade the Sea of Azov, because he wanted to take Ukraine from east to west.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That was part of the plan.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Oh, yeah.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And he used to have—or maybe still does, unknown—

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

One overseas base, Tartus, Syria.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Talk about a garden spot.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And I guess if you want to go bomb civilians, that would be a location for you.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But now that Bashar al-Assad has moved to Moscow, it's unclear how that works.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But in any case, it's a useless base because in wartime, no one gets through the Dardanelles.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That place can be shut down with mines.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And the Ukrainians have shown that you don't even need a navy to stop a navy in narrow seas.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It should be a real wake-up call to anyone on a narrow sea that just by using drones and shore ordnance and planes and things that you can wreck navies.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And in fact, the Russian naval base used to be at Sevastopol on Crimea.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Putin's had to move it to Novorossiysk.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Great.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So he can't do too much there.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Have fun with that one.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So there are many fewer possibilities for him nowadays.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

His second favorite liquid playground is the Baltic.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Kaliningrad is sovereign Russian territory.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So back in the day, I guess, if they wanted to blockade the Baltic states, they could try it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But after the latest iteration of the Ukraine war, Sweden and Finland have ditched neutrality.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They're part of NATO.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Baltic states are also NATO.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So the Baltic is really a NATO lake.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

There's not too much Putin can do there.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So his latest gig is cutting undersea cables.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That's about where he's at.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

I mean, look at trying to leave the Baltic.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It doesn't happen in wartime.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You're stuck in there.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So it turns out that Putin, Russia is much more vulnerable to blockade than the other way around because it's very easy to close up the Baltic and Black Seas.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You look out on what's going on and...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They're hemmed in, and it's all way up north.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Russia has two really big naval bases, one on the Bering Sea and one on the Barents Sea.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But the problem is when they deploy out of those bases, they have to go by NATO territory.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So in the Barents Sea, you can see why Greenland and Iceland are so strategic, because for Russia to deploy, it's got to go in between those places.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then on the Barents Sea,

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The more promising one for Russia has to go by the United States.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But the problem is, how do you supply the thing on the Bering Sea?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's just a long way from any industrial base.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So another part of Putin's sad story has to do with NATO.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So if you look at NATO, you can look at its accession in arcs.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Initially, in the Cold War, the early Cold War,

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's all of these smaller European nations.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And everybody's smaller than Russia.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's by far the biggest country on the planet.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And why they need more territory remains a mystery.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But initially, it's the smaller places joining NATO to protect themselves.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then at the implosion of the Soviet Union, it's all its former satellites fleeing at the first possible moment and saying, NATO, NATO, let me in.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then with the Ukraine, 2022, part of the Ukraine war, Sweden and Finland, which long had preferred neutrality, said, oh, no, no, we're going to join NATO.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Now, the Russians look at this and they go, well, this is NATO coming at us in arcs.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They're ignoring their complicity in all of this.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

If you occupy places and brutalize them for generations, this is what you get.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So here is Putin's muse, or I don't know if it's his muse, but it's a guy who expresses a lot of ideas like Putin's, Alexander Dugin.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Here's his view of how the world should be.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's not over a universal rules-based order where we all trade with each other.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's rather we're going to divide it up into these spheres of influence where each is a world into itself.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Dugin's worked it out for all of us.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But here are the places that Russia's actually taken lately.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

At the end of the Cold War, it took Transnistria from Moldova.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

In 2008, it took Abkhazia and South Ossetia from Georgia.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then 2014, it's taking Crimea, Luhansk, and Donetsk from Ukraine.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then look how it really works.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

This is a continental view.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You want to color it all in.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That's what the 2022 invasion of Ukraine is.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's the way a continental power looks at territory.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

All right.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The United States thinks that Putin is just all worried about us and NATO.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Actually, Putin's problem is China.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

NATO doesn't want Russian territory.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Who would want it?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's full of Russians.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Stay at home, please.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Just don't leave.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But China might.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And also Putin has said, you know, if you really feel deeply about a place, forget about boundary treaties, you should be able to take it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Well, Tsarist Russia took a lot of places from China that the Chinese might feel deeply about that have precisely the resources that China needs, not only energy and all those sorts of things out in Siberia, but water.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Lake Baikal holds 20% of the world's surface freshwater, and China's been blowing through its water table in North China.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And that one, I think the topography works that you could do a fairly, you could pipe it all in.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So here's Putin dumping his ordinance on Ukraine that never wanted to invade while he's letting this problem mishastasize.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Oh, and speaking of the problem, here he is.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

What are Xi Jinping's possibility?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You like the little natty upgraded mouse suit?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Here's his world.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Welcome to it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And what he's got are 20 neighbors, 13 by land, seven by sea, many of which despise China for excellent reasons.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Not all of them, but some of them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And if you look at it, it's all of these narrow seas.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

If Xi Jinping wanted to blockade somebody, I guess you could try Korea.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

because you've got the Yellow Sea and then the Sea of Japan, except Japan sits out there.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That's a complicating factor.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Better bets in the South China Sea, because Vietnam, Brunei, and Cambodia, they don't have alternate coastlines.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

If they want to reach the open oceans, they've got to transit the South China Sea.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

However...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, Taiwan all have other coastlines that face the high seas.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And remember, I've just given you a whole discussion about the Battle of the Atlantic, where when people have a high seas access, it's really difficult to shut them down because China would have to go all the way around to be on the far side to shut everything down on the other side.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Or maybe they're just going to obliterate it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

I don't know.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But anyway, the South China Sea is such a legal mess.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

No one knows who owns what.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And in any kind of war, you're going to have all these neutrals who might suddenly join sides if they don't like what's happening.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But you can get a sense of what the possibilities are there.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's very difficult.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Usually...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

In a war, we've already done narrow seas, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The North Sea, the Baltic, the Black Sea, the Mediterranean, they shut down in wartime to commercial traffic.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It simply can't make it through.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And surface fleets have great difficulty.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And if the neighbors, as Ukraine has shown, just buy the right drones and

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

since the sea's a little bigger, buy some submarines, some plain shore artillery.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That might be enough to just close down China's merchant marine, certainly the merchant marine, but also its navy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So if you want to go the other way of, well, what about Xi Jinping doing a surprise visit on the West Coast?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

There's a lot of open ocean.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Hawaii would be the nearest big island.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's a long way away, and Hawaii's dependent on imports for everything.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's not very useful.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But for the United States going the other way, the islands get bigger and better the closer to China that you get.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So I'll leave you with Alfred Thayer Mahan, captain and later admiral, by far the most famous person ever associated with the U.S.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Naval War College, where I spent my career.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Here are his prerequisites for playing the maritime game.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

One, you need a moat.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You've got to have insulation from attack if you want to play this game.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You need a dense internal transportation grid to get the goods out in peacetime, reliable egress by sea to get the Navy out in wartime, a dense coastal population that's going to be running all the trade, commerce-driven economy, and then you need a government that's stable that is going to support

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Funding a navy and supporting commerce.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Okay, let's line up Russia and China with these prerequisites.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Well, neither one's got a moat.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They got more neighbors than any two other countries on the planet.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So definitely not that.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Internal transportation grid.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Russia's remains lamentable.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

China's is getting better.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Neither one has reliable egress by sea with these narrow seas.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Sure, Russia's got the Arctic, but there's nothing up there.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They're polar bears.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Great.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Go get bitten.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And as for dense coastal population, yes, China has a dense coastal population, but Russia doesn't way up north.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Russia has never had a commerce-driven economy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

China was more so under Deng Xiaoping, but under Xi Jinping, he is privileging the crony sector over the private sector, and neither one has stable government institutions.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The litmus test of that one is whether you have transparent, regular transfers of power, usually through elections, and dictator for life does not remotely exist.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So, sure, China and Russia remain continental problems, but I don't think they understand the maritime limitations of where they're at.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And, of course, peace would be the better thing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Keep compounding growth.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And war, as the Ukrainian war shows daily, what a waste of Russian assets.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But sadly, the enemy gets a vote.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

All right.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That's what I had to say for you this evening.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And thank you so much for coming and being such a wonderful audience.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Thank you.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's both.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But I don't know that Germany ever blockading Britain.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It was more he was planning to invade Britain if he could.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then he lost so many naval assets doing the Norway campaign, which he really needed to do.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

that he doesn't have the naval assets that he had at the beginning of the war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That's unlike World War I, where the Germans basically, they had their whole fleet, most of it, at the end of the war, and then it gets scuttled at the end of the war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

This time, Germany did the smart thing, which is to use that fleet, get something.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They get Norway, but then they don't have a fleet.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So I don't think invading...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's difficult.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then I think because he's in the big petroleum deficit zone, he's got to get moving.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

I'm not clear that he had tons of choices, but he's got to go for resources, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The oceans have been shut off for him.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The whole proposition of what he's up to is questionable, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But it doesn't mean that it isn't a really bitter struggle and difficult struggle.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And even though you go, well, Germany's GMP, if you add it up compared to the totality of the Allies' axis, Allies have so much more stuff.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Yeah, I mean, you can go, I think the Allies are going to win this thing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But after how many millions of losses?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And I showed you the Battle of the Atlantic.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It goes this way, it goes that way.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It goes this way, it goes that way.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

A lot of people are dying of all this.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So, yeah, the Germans made errors.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The first one is, why even go to war?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

If you want to dominate Europe...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

and you have really great growth rates, which in World War I they did, they would have taken over Europe years ago by just growing, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Now, don't do either World War.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Just keep growing your economy, and then you're going to have all these good business relations.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So the error is even going to war for these things, but it doesn't mean these wars couldn't have gone the other way.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And you're right.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You look at blunders, but you call it a blunder now because it didn't work out.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

At the time, you don't know, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

A lot of people get away with really risky things, and then you say they're brilliant.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then the ones who don't get away with the risky things, you say they're idiots.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But it's dicey.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Define win.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

What is win?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

If Germany's win means controlling the entire continent, plus Britain, plus Russia, you come up with one answer.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

If Hitler had just done the Anschluss, right, that's Austria joins, and maybe done the Sudeten number, which is a large German population in Czechoslovakia, and quit, he'd be called Bismarck II, a genius.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Like, no losses gets to keep that bigger area.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But that's not who he is.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So you need to define what win is for both the Germans and then both for the Allies to determine what's feasible and what's not feasible.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Germany potentially can be invaded overland everywhere, whereas Britain can't.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then Germany just cannot deploy a navy the way Britain can.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's just geography.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And therefore, Germany should have bought a completely different navy, skipped the surface fleet, buy a lot more U-boats.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Maybe they would have zapped the British before the United States gets its act together in either world war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Do it fast.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Do it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

All right, counter-argument.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Even for these maritime operations?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Well, A, they're not blockading Britain.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Britain's getting all its stuff out, but then they get sunk somewhere else.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Blockade is when you're actually keeping things in.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So Germany has exactly zero merchant marine going anywhere, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The stuff that you're talking about being sunk, they're naval ships, but a lot of it is merchant marine because the British are getting things out.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Tremendous amounts of it are getting out.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So that's just a difference.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then you're correct about the importance of productive bases.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Britain's problem in World War II that's different from the Napoleonic Wars is when you change to oil as what's powering your ships and things, Britain doesn't have that at home.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Whereas coal, it does.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It has some A-list coal.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And so when you're doing Aegis sailing coal, the British are okay.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But then when you're changing energy sources, they're definitely not okay.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So there are other factors that are going in with them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But you're right about the productive base.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But then there's another game to play, which I think is worth playing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's the game of takeaway.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So you're telling me there's this factor, which is economic size, and it's decisive, that this will determine the outcome of wars.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And you're absolutely right that it's important.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Air power enthusiasts will say, no, no, no, that's nonsense.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's all about controlling the skies.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So when you control the air, you got air cover for your convoys.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That's what does it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So let's talk about why the Battle of the Atlantic turns out the way it is.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

If I take away cryptography, would it have turned out the same way?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Negative.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

If I take away not just sheer amount of technology, but certain key pieces like radar and those things, what happens?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Does it change?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Yes, it does.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

What happens if the United States just doesn't like alliances, that you don't coordinate things particularly well?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Does it change things?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Yes, it does.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You can go through...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

A list of this, of different people are designing different types of ships and are also determining that you're going to share things with Britain.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Britain's providing a lot of free stuff.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So if you play, remove any one of these things, that Battle of the Atlantic turns out differently.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So the story is, it's probably a package of many things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And this whole game of takeaway, when you have people who...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

We'll come up with a monocausal explanation for you.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They'll go one cause.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And they'll probably be right that their one cause is really important.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But then they are just ignoring all these other things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So that's the more important thing in strategy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So your thing is, it's truly important.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Well, it depends whether the war is a war for limited or unlimited objectives, because you can play that game with the Russo-Japanese War.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Japan, all the data you talk about Japan, it's a fraction of Russia.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And Russia gets trounced in the Russo-Japanese War.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So there's something up what's going on, whereas Japan's having a very limited objective and Russia has other problems at home and is willing to bail.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That's one thing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But there's another thing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

If Germany had simply never bought a surface fleet, if they'd been sensible...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Surface fleet, yeah, it's great Britain's got one, but it can always deploy that thing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Germany will never deploy its surface fleet.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It'll get it sunk, which is what happened in the Norwegian campaign.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

At least from the German point of view, they got Norway out of it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But if they had simply bought U-boats instead, I don't know whether it would have... You'd have to do the math, and I haven't done that, of...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

What their goal would need to be is to knock Britain out before the United States ever gets into the war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Oh, definitely do not declare war on the United States because maybe if you can keep the commerce rating going for another six months, maybe Britain falls.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Maybe that's the pivotal error.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It has nothing to do with what you're talking about.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's simply Hitler shouldn't have declared war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Right.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

I don't know, but there are many factors that go into these things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And that's why it's a reason why you should listen to people who disagree with you, that they may see some of these other factors, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

We all have blind spots, and we rely on other people to find them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But then you have to be receptive to listening.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Oh, I don't think Hitler was about sustaining any arrangement.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

He was about taking over Lebensraum in Slavic lands, Russia.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But flip it the other way, which is what the Soviet Union is thinking, is it'll be great when the Germans go after the British.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

What's not to like about that one?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then they will, it's the pounce and absorb, is that they will so weaken each other that will open opportunities for Russia.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So that would be the plan.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then he's looking at it, and I don't know the details of what his timeline is on whether he thinks it's just a delaying act.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

I have not gone into the archives to read what Stalin was up to in great detail.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But I think it's basically that one is thinking that the...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The British and the Germans can go at it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Also, the Russians had tried to be working out some deal with the British prior to all of this.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And the British, because the communists had been trying to destabilize them ever since the Bolshevik Revolution, and they didn't get just how lethal the fascists were in Germany, that they weren't just run-of-the-mill authoritarians.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They had this whole genocide component that went with them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And so the British are thinking, well, the real threat are the communists in Russia.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And they're right.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Long term, they are the real threat.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But in the more medium term, it's the Germans are.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And so it takes blitzkrieg for the British to go, uh-oh.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

and then they're willing to team up with Russians.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And Russia's willing to team up with them, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

When German invasion transforms what had been primary enemies, he takes that role, being primary enemies for both Britain and Russia, then you're going to glue another alliance.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So that's the trick in our own day.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You do not want to do things that the United States is the primary enemy of those two, of Xi Jinping and Putin.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Currently, we're not, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's Taiwan or India or Vietnam, whatever Xi Jinping's going to steal currently.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That's his primary problem.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And it's definitely Ukraine for Putin.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And you want to keep that all divided up to the extent that you're able to do that, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

A lot of things aren't feasible.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

These are high stakes things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But you do not want to... This is where...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

being really just not thinking about your foreign policy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It takes a lot of experts and a lot of people to guess, game out, what is your best course of action?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

What is your least bad option?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That's usually what foreign policy is.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's not what the great option is.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

There are none of those.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's what the least bad one is.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And it takes a lot of thought, and gutting the State Department will not get you there.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's profoundly dangerous.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Resources, big resources.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Let's talk about Bismarck.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

This is the difference between limited and unlimited objectives.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And these concepts, which I've tried to transmit in these lectures, I think are useful and you apply them to other things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So an unlimited objective means the state in question is not going to exist at the end of the war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And if it's really unlimited, and Hitler does the most unlimited variant, he's going to kill all the people.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's Slavs.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

He's going to literally butcher them all.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So that's one kind of war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

A limited war means you want maybe a hunk of territory, something less.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The opposing government's going to live.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So Bismarck runs three wars.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

One is the Danish War.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Then there's the Austro-Prussian War.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then there's the Franco-Prussian War.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

In the Danish War, it's about a couple of provinces in the far south of Denmark that Bismarck covets because he wants to reunify, well, unify for the first time all these Germanic states.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And he trounces Denmark in that war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Does he go for regime change in Copenhagen?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

No way.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

He just says, see this place that you shouldn't have had anyway because it's got a bunch of Germans in it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And so if you think about, this is another concept, value of the object.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

How much is victory worth to you versus the other guy?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

For Denmark, of just making Bismarck go away, and this little state, the value of the object's lower to them, because they aren't thinking in terms of creating a greater Germany, which Bismarck is.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So you have two things going on.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You're giving the Danes, given how much the Prussians trounced them, a generous piece.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You're saying, just get rid of this Germanic part that you don't really much care about.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So he gets away with that one.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Then in the Austrian...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

the war against Austria, he just slams them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

He's got this railway system that allows them to deploy where the Austrians can't.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And there are all these little Germanic states watching all this going on, and they're starting to confederate sort of with Prussia because they're scared of all of this.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And so...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Instead of doing regime change in Vienna, it's just saying, hey, let's cede a few more of these things to Germany.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And it was a big empire where you have pieces, you own pieces, you lose pieces, you lose pieces, you own pieces.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So for the Austrians, the value of the object, again, is much lower.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Given how they were slammed in the war, it seems to be a generous piece.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then when he gets into the Franco-Prussian War, all these little Germanic states are joining with Prussia, and that's going to create unified Germany.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then he takes a bite too far when he takes Alsace-Lorraine, which the French are totally upset about and they never give up on that one.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But all of these objectives are limited objectives.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

He's not overthrowing the Danish government, the Austrian government, or the French government.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And the value for Prussians of unifying the Germanic states is far greater than the places that are losing these itty-bitty places.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Also, they don't get the big picture.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They don't see it till it's done that, whoops.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

By doing all of this, Prussia has transformed itself from the weakest of the five great powers of Europe to second only to Britain.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And that's ex post facto.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And it's a real reason why you don't want royalty running stuff.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You want people who get their jobs based on merit rather than who their dad was.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Because it's in the world of Bismarck's dealing with is kings who are just clueless what they're up to.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Yes, yeah, he needed it because he had this big petroleum deficit zone.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And so when you say stupid to invade Russia, probably it's once you've done this number, you have to go into Russia because you've got to take those oil fields back.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Then you can go, buddy, don't go for Moscow.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Forget those people.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Just go straight for the oil fields.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Take that only.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That would be more of the blunder.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Dictators don't.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They just double down.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

This is the beauty of elections.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

I get it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's a mess with a multi-party system and with all the crazy politics that come and go with it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But elections are a moment to reassess.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

When the party in power sufficiently screws things up, where people finally go, ooh, this is a mess, the elections...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The party in power isn't reassessing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

The election is reassessing for them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You know human beings.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

We've all met many.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Most human beings don't like to change their mind.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

I think it's a terrible mistake.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And that's why I like the argument, as you know, counter-argument structure to try to take some of the sting out of changing our minds.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Because doubling down on bad decisions, it's a mistake, but we human beings do it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then if you have a dictator, you're guaranteed.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Putin is not going to back down in Ukraine.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

He's going to be going after it from now until doomsday.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then if he wins there, he's going to then go after the Baltic states.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's not going to end.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So sadly, the enemy gets a vote and you may go, well, these are idiot decisions.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Yeah, but they're very dangerous ones.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So you have to do things to counter them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Well, the problem in that war—this is another thing that I think is really helpful to do—

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

is to the best of your abilities, write down primary adversary, secondary adversary, tertiary adversary.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So take all the powers in World War I and both sides and do their primary enemy, secondary, third, and you find out it is a mess.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Nothing aligns.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

so that if you try to get out of that war, somebody's not going to like it because that's their primary objective.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And there's a lot of bad overlaps and who's going to get whatever parts of the Balkans they think at the end of this war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And so in a way, you have World War I, you really have to sit down and look at it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

If I were doing a lecture on that, I have a whole other slides that would show you this, where they're fighting parallel wars.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's really not a good idea to either have royalty running the show or World War I is the war where militaries on all sides are running the show and civilians are doing the backseat saying, well, I don't really understand military operations.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

We're going to let you boys do it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Disaster.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That war sets communism and fascism.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It puts them on steroids.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And you can argue we've been dealing with that mismanagement in one way or another ever since because...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

For most of my life, I thought we had put fascism back in its box, and so we were down to dealing with communism.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But now it seems that this very authoritarian vision, which seems to rhyme with fascism, and then you can get into a big argument, what precisely is fascism, and you try to define it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But it seems like we've come full circle in the collective West, and it's...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

toxic in a way dealing with all this.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So World War I is the absolutely mismanaged war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then the people who lived through that set up these institutions that have held the peace until the present day when irresponsible leaders across the globe are not cautious enough.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And here we are.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then there's a price to pay if you have a bunch of reckless drivers on the road trying to play chicken with each other, how this will all end.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And I don't know the answer.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So anyway, that's my reason for doing lectures on strategies.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

I'm going to give you...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

concepts, some data to think about, because you're going to have to form your own opinions and your own conclusions, but try to make it evidence-based and think about things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

I recommend reading things more deeply.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Don't take what any one person has to say.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Come to your own terms.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That's the reason for doing all this.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

We're living in really portentous times where people may make decisions where there's no going back.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

I mean, if we blow our alliance system, we're going to be dealing with China alone.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That won't go well, particularly if we think we're going to corner them in some way, going to go corner a great power like China and think that'll go well for us.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It won't.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

No, I just tried.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Maybe I wasn't clear.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

I was just saying, OK, we saw how it all worked in World War II of people blockading or not blockading or doing peripheral operations or not.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So if you occupy Russia's position or China's position, it's not about who's going to win or who's going to lose.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's going, well, both of them are much more vulnerable to blockade, period.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

More concepts.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So I did limited, unlimited objectives, and I did value of the object, how much winning is worth to you.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Another one is, what is win?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So if you're talking about the United States invading China, insane.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Who would ever do that, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

If you're thinking of whatever conflict you're imagining,

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

if you're thinking about, I don't know, is when China, I mean, tell me what this war is.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Who's going for what and what's when going to look like?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then we can talk about what feasible is.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

If you look at Taiwan, okay, maybe China can take it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It may have to leave it a glowing embers.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That lovely chip foundry that everyone cares about, I imagine, would be the first casualty of that war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That will be blown and be gone.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

There's no way you'll capture that intact.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then everybody else is going to be terrified of this.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And they're going to do the—it's not placate in our day.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's rather sanctions of saying, okay, if you're not going to play nice, we're not going to trade with you.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You're going to have a massive timeout from the global order.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And China is very trade reliant.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And so, okay.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Oh, why?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

I think the story is on...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

sanctions they don't have to be leak proof all you're doing is if you can knock off one or two percentages uh points of chinese growth just because some people are sanctioning like war material that would be a very likely thing that after taiwan maybe you're trading with china but you're not doing certain categories of war material with them the cumulative effects of doing that to a country over generations is the difference between north and south korea

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It adds right up.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And you can do the math better than I can.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

If you knock off 2% growth per annum, I think the doubling time of an economy, I don't know, if you knock a couple of percentage points off, it goes from like 25 years to 75 years.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You will be able to do the math better than I can rapidly.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But it's very consequential.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And China's neighbors will be scared to death of this.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And also, you're right that trade patterns don't go overnight.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They go gradually over like a 10-year period in which China will find it's already happening is supply chains are moving out of China.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Slow.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Not today.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

No one's centering around us right now because we're not playing nicely with allies right now.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But rather, I think you will find that there are so many countries that are eager to follow the Chinese model for development.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They have cheaper labor now, places like Vietnam.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And India has also been doing all sorts of things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And my impression with India is it isn't one of India's problems.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It needs a better infrastructure and their investments going on in that.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So there are many other people in the world who are interested in making money and they've watched how China did it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You can emulate that.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So I think if China is foolish enough to do Taiwan, these will be the long-term ramifications.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's a mistake.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

As annoying as other countries are, it's better to just argue with them at international institutions.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And China has a big presence at these international institutions and should be able to get others to go along with however it wants to change rules.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

and do it that way.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

If they're going to do it the Putin way, you can look at it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's negative sum.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And they will get a timeout from the global order.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Ever since the Industrial Revolution introduced compounded economic growth, this continental solution is a mistake.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It is much better to forget about invading territory, allow the free traffic of people, trade, goods, ideas, and then we'll all grow together.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Yeah.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Oh, the continental maritime.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

I've just discussed geography because it's something I think most people don't think about.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And so and particularly what's hilarious about people who buy navies.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And I've read all these.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

I've sadly had to read these naval theory books.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They never look at the geography.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

I mean, they occasionally do, but it's sort of, I'm going to get a big Navy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Well, it depends where you live.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So I've just finished and edited books about fleets and being just like, if you have a fleet, what does that foreclose for whoever's around you?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

What does it open for you?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And then it makes really, it's not a great read, but I learn a lot from doing it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It becomes really clear that, like, oh, you can see that map there.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

You see Italy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And you have in World War I, with that particular position, the Austro-Hungarian Empire has quite a good little submarine fleet.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Captain von Trapp, you know, Sound of Music?

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

He was a war hero.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

He was a submarine captain.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And just by having that submarine fleet in there, it forced Britain to convoy the whole Mediterranean.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It doesn't mean Austro-Hungary wins the war, but a very simple investment prevents anyone from invading over its oceans, which is important, and it makes the British do very expensive convoy duty because Captain von Trapp is quite good at sinking naval ships of the British.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So...

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That's the difference of your geographic position limits what you can do.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But now we have a whole rules-based order so that if you join the party, you have a massive alliance system.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

That's why I look at China.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It doesn't have any allies.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It has itself.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And it likes to have bilateral relations.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

But actually, these international institutions, for those who actually are serious about them, it's a de facto.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

NATO is most certainly an alliance system.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's important.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

It's just the Chinese also come with this little piece of baggage that we're big, you're small, so we get to tell you what to do.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Oh, they've literally said it over and over again.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

They'll tell it to their neighbors like the Vietnamese, just basically shut up and color because we're a big country and you're little.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Vietnamese don't like it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

We've been really intrusive in other people's domestic politics, without a doubt.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Right.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

And that is the American busybody gene that's gotten us into a lot of trouble.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

So, oh yeah, no one's perfect in this world.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

Far from it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
How Hitler almost starved Britain – Sarah Paine

We all make horrendous errors and then do things we shouldn't do.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So I'm going to talk to you today about one of the two great generations in modern Japanese history.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And they are the Meiji generation, named after the Meiji emperor here.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And that generation transformed Japan into the first and the only non-Western modern power in that period.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the second great generation of modern Japanese is, of course, the post-war generation that transformed their country into a global powerhouse.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And I'm going to ask a question, or try to both ask and answer it, is what caused the reversal of the balance of power in Asia in the period that I'm going to talk to you about it?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it's a really consequential question about why these tectonic changes take place in the international system

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Because historically, China had always been the dominant civilization in Asia from time immemorial.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then upstart Japan winds up doing things, or China winds up doing things, and it reverses and has profound effects.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it's a very relevant question in our own day when there's an ongoing reversal of the reversal, when China's on the comeback and threatening to put Japan back in its box.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So it's really interesting to ask why, how do these things happen?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So that's the background of what I'm talking about.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But if you think about China back in the day before Japan trounced China in the first Sino-Japanese War, Chinese believed that there's only one civilization.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

theirs, naturally.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And they believed that, of course, it's the best because there's only one that makes it easier to be the best.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But in addition, if you think about all levels of human endeavor, Chinese institutions were imitated throughout the East.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's the richest country on the planet for many, many years.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Incredible achievements in science, philosophy, you name it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And also there was another assumption that people didn't make a U-turn on the path to civilization.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's always forward towards Chinese civilization.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, Japan, by westernizing, is taking a U-turn on the road to civilization.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's dumping Chinese civilization.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so already we got at least two civilizations out there.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then when it trances China in a war,

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It suggests to the Chinese that they can't be better than the Japanese at the military things, at least.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And this effect on China was far more devastating than the opium wars.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The Chinese could write those off, the losses there.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

A bunch of crazy Europeans, they're irrelevant to us.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But when Japan did this, it basically detonated the Confucian underpinnings of Chinese civilization.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the Chinese have been trying to find a suitable replacement ever since.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

For a while, they thought it was communism.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Maybe they still do.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So I'm going to ask a question.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Why did the Asian balance of power change?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And now, spoiler alert, I'm going to give the answer.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And I'm going to say clever decisions in Tokyo.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But I'm going to use a particular framework to answer this that I have found really useful.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And I learned it from teaching at the Naval War College where students are required to have a counterargument in papers.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And this is what I learned from doing this.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So I'm going to have an argument, which is a thesis, and then I'll have some data supporting it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But then I'm not going to quit there.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I'm going to do...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

find the second best argument, the counterargument, the absolutely best alternate explanation, but not one that I think is the best one.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I'm going to give you the best one.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That's my thesis.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And I'm going to go into that.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it's incredibly valuable, particularly in our own fraught political times, where we need to hear each other out.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You need to hear out the counterargument of what the other side is saying.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then what you'll often find out in a counterargument is that there are actually some very valid points in it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it leads you to think, oh, well, maybe I need to adjust my own argument.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So changing your mind's a good idea if the data comes in.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Also, it gets you away from monocausal explanations where you come up with one cause, you think that's it, time to quit.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And if you're thinking about the counterargument, you might get other causes as well.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Also, if you're going to do something like on a job,

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

and you have to recommend a course of action, your thesis, you had better anticipate what the counter argument is going to be.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then the third part of this is the rebuttal, because you better come into that meeting your boss with a rebuttal in your back pocket so that you can deal with people who are saying you're wrong.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the rebuttal cannot be a repetition of the original argument because you know what?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That's annoying.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Don't do that.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Really annoying.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The most effective ones are coming at the problem from a completely different direction from either argument or counter-argument that then shores up your argument.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And my other direction is I've got a Sino-Japanese problem and I'm going to come around with a Russian angle.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So this is my game plan of what I'm planning to do and the analytical reasons for doing it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Okay, so I have a thesis, which I'm gonna give to you.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

When in emails and written work and lectures like this one, you really help people if you explain exactly what you're up to and you do it succinctly at the very beginning.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So here it is.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The Japanese leaders westernized their institutions,

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They integrated multiple instruments of national power into a coherent strategy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then in the Russo-Japanese War, they quit that one exactly at the culminating point of victory for maximum gains.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And together, these three things overturned the balance of power in their favor.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That's my thesis.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Short, sweet, you've got it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Whether you agree with it or not, we will get there.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Okay, so now I'm going to go to the first point.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

First points.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You should start with a topic sentence.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I'm going to start one.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Why am I doing this?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

These are all signposts to orient you to my argument so that you can absorb it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And also, if you don't like it, you can see very clearly the parts that you don't like, and we can get into a fun conversation.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So my topic sentence for the westernization part is...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Japanese leaders concluded that in order to parry the threat of the Industrial Revolution, of all these imperial powers coming at them, was they needed to westernize their institutions in order to protect their national interests, that this was step one.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So that's my topic sentence.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Okay, so what's going on?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The Industrial Revolution started in England, or Britain more generally,

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

in the late 18th century.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It spreads to the continent after the Napoleonic Wars die down at the beginning of the 19th century.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

By the mid-19th century, it had reached Asia.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it's profoundly disruptive to traditional societies whose traditional security paradigms no longer work when they're facing the weaponry of the industrialized age coming at them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And what the Industrial Revolution does and why it's so revolutionary

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

is it produces compounded economic growth.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Traditional societies are pretty stable.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But when you do compounding economic growth, the difference in power and wealth becomes stark between those who do and those who don't.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it's also based

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

not only on technological changes, right, whether you've got all these fancy armaments and railways and telegraphs, but it's also based on institutions.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

What are institutions?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They're how we organize each other.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So when you think of institutions, you think of the buildings where people are, but that's not it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's the people in there who are working on a shared project together, whatever, a shared area of activity.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And this is one of the hallmarks of Western civilization.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

This is what the Romans figured out of institutions and laws, that this is a way of really harnessing people, and it's profoundly powerful.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So I'll go into all of that.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So Japan's looking at the world with this incoming...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Industrial Revolution or the powers that have benefited from it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it's watching its neighbor, China, being defeated twice in war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And they're horrified, not just appalled.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So they're looking at it and going, you know what, maybe we'll be next.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And they're right.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The United States does unto Japan what Britain and France did unto China.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

What's that?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The treaty port system.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

What it meant is that trade in Japan and China would take place in designated treaty ports.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

that the West would set tariffs on this trade and that Western citizens in China or Japan in these treaty ports would not be subjected to Chinese or Japanese law, but home country law.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And when Chinese and Japanese citizens were in Europe and the United States, they most certainly were not dealing with home country law.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They were dealing with U.S.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

or Western law.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So it was not reciprocal in any way.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

In addition, each one of these treaties had a most favored nation clause in it, which said the one who's negotiating this treaty, the most favored one, whatever they negotiate will be given to everybody else.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So it meant whatever one could negotiate accrued to them all.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It meant that China lost sovereignty and Japan lost their sovereignty when these treaties go in.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so the Japanese, unlike China, which fights war after war with these Westerners trying to defeat them militarily and it's unsuccessful, the Japanese say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

we're going to assess what the nature of the problem is.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And they sent fact-finding mission after fact-finding mission to Europe primarily, but also the United States.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

This is just the most famous one, the Iwakura Mission, which is off to the West and the United States as well in 1871.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And they're studying not only Western military institutions, but a whole array of political, economic, legal, social, educational, the works to understand the

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

the basis for Western power and the problem that is hitting them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And they arrive in Europe at a really interesting time.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's when Otto von Bismarck is just finishing up the third war of the unification of the Germanic states.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the Japanese think, ooh, this might be quite a model for us.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Why?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Because Prussia transformed itself over a succession of three wars from the weakest of the five great European powers to second only to Great Britain.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it did so in part by unifying the Germanic states into modern Germany.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the Japanese are thinking, wow, this might be relevant to us because we're divided up into all these feudal domains that we have just tried to glue together.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And what are the lessons to be learned here?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And as they're thinking about this and watching what Bismarck is up to, they come upon the

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

thinking about institutions and technology.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And modernization, I'm going to use the words in the following sense.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Modernization means adopting the most state-of-the-art technology, whatever it is, not just military technology, but all manner of technology.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And westernization, the way I'm going to use it, means adopting westernized institutions.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And I don't mean just military institutions, I mean everything, from whether you westernize your educational institutions or political, whatever it is.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the question is, can you have one without the other?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Can you modernize and have all the fancy gadgets and things without having the westernized institutions that the societies that created these things had?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And if you think about it, this dichotomy is still with us.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

There are a lot of fighters in the Middle East and North Africa who are more than happy to use state-of-the-art technology.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But the last thing they want is westernized institutions.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the Japanese, when they posed this question back in the day, asking whether you can have one without the other, they decided the answer was no.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They didn't particularly like Western culture, but they believed that in order to have, to not only use and import state-of-the-art technology, but become an independent producer of it, you've got to do some degree of Westernization.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So they got home, they set themselves a policy objective,

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

which is to protect Japanese national security and sovereignty in an age of accelerating imperialism.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And they come up with a two-phase grand strategy to do this.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's going to be start with a domestic phase of westernization, westernize your institutions.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then they're going to, when they're done with that, they're going to have a foreign policy phase, which is going to be about starting an empire.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Why do that?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Because they look at all the powers of their day and think, what's a great power look like in those days?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, it has an empire.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So they go, well,

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

We're going to have an empire.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

All right.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

This is the domestic phase.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

These are known as the Meiji reforms in honor of the emperor who reigned in this period.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's between 1869, 1890.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's a whole generation.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And if you look at them, only two of them pertain to the military.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

There's the draft and then creating the general staff.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then if you look at the two that start it all, they start it...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

at the top of the social pyramid with the feudal domains.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That's the power brokers of Japan, and they're getting rid of all of those.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then they go right to the bottom of the social pyramid, which is children, and deciding that they need to have compulsory elementary education because they don't believe you can have a modern country, a strong country, without a literate population.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But if you look at the rest of these things, you're getting a Bank of Japan.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You're going to be having something running your currency and other things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You've got a cabinet, a higher education.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You're going to have a professional civil service, constitution, a parliament.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You're going to have a court system that looks like a Western court system with laws that look an awful lot like Western laws.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

As a result of doing all of this, the Westerners had no excuse left for having a treaty port system because this mirrors what's going on in the West.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So Britain, which is the precedent setter in these things, the superpower of its day, it renegotiates its treaties with Japan on the basis of juridical equality.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the other powers follow suit and do it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

This happens in Japan a half century before China gets rid of its unequal treaties.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

All right, so domestic phase is over the moment Japan signs that treaty with Britain.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The foreign policy phase has to do with Japan believes it needs an empire and its neighborhood is a mess.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

China is imploding for various reasons, which I will get to.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And Korea is even worse.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And China, because it's having a massive civil wars throughout China, can no longer fulfill its Susan role to stabilize Korea.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the Korean royal house is busy mailing package bombs to each other.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I kid you not, they're blowing each other up.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

What Japan is terribly concerned about is that Russia might try to fill this power vacuum.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Why would Japan think that?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, it's the Trans-Siberian Railway that Russia decides in 1891 it's going to build a Trans-Siberian Railway to exactly what?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

There is no Russian population out there.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And Japan understands exactly what it is.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's a bid for empire in Asia because once Russia completes this thing, it's going to overturn the Asian balance of power because Russia is going to be able to deploy troops where nobody else can.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Therefore, treaty revision happens on the 16th of July, 1894.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That's when it's signed on the dotted line with Britain.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Nine days later, Japan fires the opening shots of the first Sino-Japanese War.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the Japanese fight three wars of Russian containment.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I'm going to talk about the two that went well for them today.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The third one's a whole other topic.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The first one's the first Sino-Japanese War, when little Japan...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

defeats the greatest land power of Asia, China.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Incredible.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The second one, which I'll get to a decade later, is the Russo-Japanese War, when the Japanese defeat, sorry, spoiler alert, Russia, the greatest land empire of Europe.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Amazing that they can do this.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the third one does not go nearly as well.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That would be the Second Sino-Japanese War from 1931 to 1945 that morphs into World War II that ruins the Japanese, but it's a different topic.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

First sign of Japanese war to let you know what happened in it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's comprised of two pairs of key battles.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

There are other battles as well, but this is a good way to understand it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The first battle is at Pyongyang.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The Japanese defeat the Chinese army, which takes off and retreats all the way over the border river, which is the Yalu, back into Chinese territory.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So Japan has actually achieved its war objective, which was to remove Korea from the Chinese sphere of influence.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Battle number one, they've already done it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the second battle occurs within the week, the same week in mid-September, 1894.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's the Battle of the Yalu, where the Japanese Navy trounces the Chinese Navy, which, believe it or not, in this day, both countries had state-of-the-art navies.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And Japan trounces it and gets command of the sea.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That's terribly important for Japan.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

For Japan to reach the theater here, it's got to cross the sea.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If there's a hostile Navy out and about, it can sink troop transport supplies and other things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So it's very important to get rid of hostile Navy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, the reason it gets command of the sea is because Chinese decide they're never gonna engage with the Japanese Navy ever again, and they duck into port.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the Japanese are going to solve that problem for them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

There are a second pair of battles which are fought over the winter of 1894-95.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

China only has one naval refitting station where you can actually fix large ships.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That's at Port Arthur.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And they will take it by land the same way they're going to take it in the Russo-Japanese War.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The Chinese fleet, what's left of it, flees to Weihaiwei, hang out in port.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Japan lands an army on the Shandong Peninsula there, and also it blockades with its navy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then the army turns the landward guns on the ships and port, and they sink them all.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And that is the end of that war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Okay.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Here's what Japan got out of this war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And what I got is a very simple framework, domestic, regional, international.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

This is a way to help you remember what I'm going to tell you.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Three-part frameworks are helpful for getting information to other people.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Domestically,

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

This victory in this war validated a very controversial Westernization program.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

All those Meiji reforms, which sound so great in retrospect, actually the Japanese population didn't like them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Who wants their kids being sent to elementary school if they were working on the farm before?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And who wants this Westernized curriculum?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Who likes Westerners anyway?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And people are wearing all this Western clothing and stuff.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's crazy land.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Why would anyone like that?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Once Japan wins this war and trounces China, a lot of Japanese have second thoughts about this.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They're quite proud of their achievements.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it vastly increases the prestige of the military, particularly the army.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And this is going to have bad follow-on effects for civil-military relations because it's going to increase military power over civil power.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But it takes a while to...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

play out.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Regionally, Japan's replacing China as the dominant power, and Japan's getting the beginnings of its empires, Taiwan and the Pescadores.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Internationally, Japan becomes a recognized great power.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And what's my proof?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It would be the 1902 Anglo-Japanese alliance, which is Britain's only long-term alliance between the Napoleonic Wars and World War I, alliance with Japan.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

However, this war gets the eye of Mordor turned on to them because Russia is going, whoa, rising power in Asia, potential two-front war problem for us with Europe in the West and whatever the Japanese think they're doing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And that triggers a Russo-Japanese arms race and Russia, the eye of Mordor, turns from Europe to Asia.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And that's going to be problematic.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Now my transition sentence, I've done part number one.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Not only did Japan westernize its institutions in order to overturn the balance of power, but it also mastered grand strategy and integrated multiple instruments of national power.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And here we go on that one.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Marshal Yamagata, who was the writer of war plans for the very successful Sino-Japanese War, he predicted another war within the decade.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the Russo-Japanese War came right on time.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And in the meantime, Japan prepared for war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it integrated such instruments of national power as diplomacy, intelligence, military, economics.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I'm going to go through each in turn.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

starting with diplomacy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Here you have Sun Tzu, who's China's big guru, art of war, who's talking about it's really important to disrupt alliances.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

In modern terminology, that would be isolating the adversary, that that might be a good thing to do.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And that's the purpose of the Anglo-Japanese alliance.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

How does that work?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

What it says, its terms say that

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If more than one European power comes to Asia to fight Japan, that means Russia plus one European buddy, then Britain is going to weigh in on Japan's side.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So Britain is the number one power in Europe.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So why would you ever want to help Russia out?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Because it won't go well with you if Britain is on Japan's side.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

This alliance goes into effect from 1902 to 1907.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's a five-year event, opening a window of opportunity for Japan to sort out its empire in Asia.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But the Trans-Siberian Railway, when it gets completed, is going to threaten to close that window.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And here's why.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The Trans-Siberian Railway in those days, it's not north of the Amur, it's actually straight through Manchuria, this Chinese Eastern Railway.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's Russia's bid for empire of trying to control Manchuria.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it was unfinished.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It hadn't been double-tracked, so that means you're always having to push trains off so other trains can pass them in the other direction.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's missing its Lake Baikal link.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Don't think Lake, think Switzerland.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Lake Baikal is about the size of Switzerland.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the Boxer Rebellion, the Al-Qaeda of their day, and I'll get to them, had destroyed much of the track, really upsetting the Russians.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

As a result of all of this, at the beginning of the Russo-Japanese War, which begins in 1904, the carrying capacity of that railway was only 20,000 to 40,000 men per month to the front.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

By the end of the war, the last battle,

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's 100,000 men per month.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If those numbers had been available at the beginning of the war, Japan would have faced numerically superior Russians from start to finish and would have been in a world of hurt.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So Japan has got a window of opportunity that it's worrying about sorting things out.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

In addition, Japan engages in a really big military buildup.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It gets a really big indemnity from the first Sino-Japanese War, and it spends it, and that spending is finished in around 1901, meaning it's about ready to go to war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

At the time the war breaks out, Russian naval assets in Asia were about three-quarters, those of Japan.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Russia was scheduled to surpass Japan's naval assets by about 1905.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Again, you could see this window of opportunity threatening to shut.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So if you look at it, Japan's window of opportunity of getting its empire, if that's what it thinks it wants, you've got to have treaty vision in place.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You've got to isolate Russians, make sure that there's going to be no other power interfering in these things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You've got to have your rearmament program completed.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But look, this window is very short.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's going to close in 1905-ish.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And when you think of windows of opportunities, what they mean is whatever it is you plan to do has to be completed before it slams shut.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If you're on the wrong side of the window, which is what happens to Japan in the Second Sano-Japanese War, you are in a world of hurt.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

In addition, what it means is actually time is on the side of your adversary.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It is a sign of weakness, not strength.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The Japanese are looking at the Russians who are procrastinating.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The Japanese are telling them, hey, we will trade recognition of your dominance of Manchuria if you'll recognize our dominance in Korea.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The Russians didn't want to do anything.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They're procrastinating and trying to go beyond this window.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the Japanese are thinking, we got to sort it out before that happens.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Another element of national power are psyops, as the U.S.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

military likes to call them, psychological operations.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the Japanese were engaged in a really wide array of them, both at the front in Russia and across the Russian Empire.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

At the front, the Japanese were secreting in all kinds of postcards for the Russian recruits there, showing the great life of the POW and rather posh Japanese accommodations, as opposed to the really bad life of getting disabled or killed in the front.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Meanwhile,

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Russia was the only, I think there are only three European countries, including Russia, that lacked a legislature in this period.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I think Montenegro is one of them, and maybe the Ottoman Empire might be the other one.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Japan had a legislature.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Russian population's sick of it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The war wasn't going well, and they start hitting the streets in the Russian Revolution, and Japan wants to advertise that to the troops.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You want things to be stirred up in Russia so that Russia has to pull troops back into European Russia.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So they're doing all of that.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then this gentleman, he was a colonel back in the day, Colonel Akashi, but he's a general by the time this picture is taken of him.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

He's working in the Japanese legation in Stockholm, and he's busy cutting checks to Finnish and Polish revolutionaries who are part of the Russian empire and want out.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

trying to stir things up there to have Russia have to be forced to pull the troops out of Asia.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then the Japanese have this gentleman in there employing a lot of other people, Yuan Shikai.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

He is key in overthrowing the Qing Dynasty and becomes China's first president.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But back in the day, he's running reconnaissance missions for the Japanese, telling them what the Russians are up to.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And when little detachments of Russian troops try to go out and about, these people are harassing them, which doesn't help Russian morale.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Also, the Japanese are being really good about purchases from Manchurians.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They aren't just taking things from people.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They're actually paying.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So they're triggering an economic boom in Manchuria, which means locals like them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then the Japanese also figure how to tap into Russian fleet communications so they know where the Russian fleet is most convenient.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So this is the information element of national power.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then there's economics.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Two-fifths of this war...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

for the Japanese side is paid for with loans.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So if they don't get the loans, they can't wage the war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

In fact, one of the reasons Russia has to call it quits at the end of the war is when it tries to raise a final loan, it failed, no one will pay for it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But the Japanese loans depend on battlefield success as do interest rates.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So if you are successful in the field, the interest rates go down.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So Japan is doing quite well with all of this.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So if you sum it all up, you can go the Japanese use diplomacy to isolate their adversary with this UK alliance.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They use all these psychological operations to promote revolution and desertions.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They're using the military instrument to fund their rearmament.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then they've got the economics going with all of these loans.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The US military is really partial to a Reagan era acronym of DIME, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You can see here that

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

D is for diplomacy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I is for information.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

M is for military.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

E is economics.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Sounds like a bad, I don't know, cheerleading routine.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's inadequate.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It may be a place to start.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's cute and all that stuff.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But cute does not mean complete.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Think about it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

One of the most important factors in this war, bar none, certainly for Russia, is railways.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I don't see an R in there or anything.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So by all means, this is better than only looking at military factors, but it's incomplete.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So I've talked about Japan's westernization, and I've talked about its master of grand strategy, and now here's my third reason of how they...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

how they overturn the balance of power.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it has to do with pegging the culminating point of victory in the Russo-Japanese War.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And now for a commercial break, I'm going to give you some terminology, which are culminating point of attack, culminating point of victory.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They're different.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Culminating point of attack is an operational term.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If you do not reach your culminating point of attack,

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

it means you could have gone further.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it applies, the culminating point of attack applies to a single battle or a set of battles, which would be called a campaign.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So if you don't go far enough in your battle, you could have taken more territory, whatever it was you were after, if you go too far.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So imagine you're going...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

deep into whatever territory it is, your lines are ever more extended.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Your enemy's lines are probably being shortened.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Your supply problems are getting worse.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Theirs might be getting better.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If you go way too far, your enemy will launch a counterattack that will send you much further backwards than if you'd been a little more cautious about how far you went.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So that's an operational term.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The strategic term is culminating point of victory and it concerns the objective for which the war was fought.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Japan's fighting this war in order to protect its sovereignty.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They come a great power to do that.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If you don't go far enough and if you don't reach your culminating point, you could have gotten greater winnings.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If you go too far, typically what'll happen is you will trigger a third party intervention.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And what may have been feasible before that third party joined the party may no longer be.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So this is the point of the terminology.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Oh, commercial break is over and let's get going on the Russo-Japanese War.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Here's a nice map of it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So it starts out with a Japanese surprise attack on Port Arthur, Lushun, modern name, I'm using a traditional name.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's on the Liaodong Peninsula.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

This is the main Russian base.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The Japanese have to get those ships in base and sink them even better because their supply lines are in danger if that navy's out and about.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Simultaneously, they land an army in Korea that's gonna go northwest into Manchuria.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And if you look at the railway line, it goes Port Arthur all the way to Harbin up there.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That's the east-west junction of the Trans-Siberian Railway.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

In those days, that's the Chinese Eastern Railway.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And I've only listed a couple of the major battles, but basically, it's going up the railway system from Port Arthur upward.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And you got the Liaoyang and Mukden railway

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And Japan has got only four armies until the very end of the war when it gets a fifth.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And one army, as long as Port Arthur has ships in it, it has to be stuck there, besieging it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And Japan's theory of victory in this thing is to have an annihilating battle.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That's what Bismarck had done to the French in the Battle of Sudan.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so the Japanese really need to get that army out of Port Arthur so that it can concentrate on these other battles.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

What happens is Russia keeps losing the battles, but it has an orderly retreat moving ever further northward, extending Japanese lines.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So that's an overview of how the war goes.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So you can orient the rest of the conversation here.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If you look at the invasion routes that Japan uses in the first Sino-Japanese War and the Russo-Japanese War, they're remarkably similar because guess what?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The geography hasn't changed.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so if you want to send an army in to desired locations, it may well have to take similar routes.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the British, the French, the Americans, Japanese had studied very carefully the first Sona Japanese War.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But apparently the Russians didn't waste their time on it because here's what's up.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If the Russians had studied it carefully, they would have known the Yalu River is lethal to send an army across that if there's an army waiting for it on the other side.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The Russians also would have realized that this Feng Shui Pass and the Mo Tian Pass, Mo Tian means literally scratch the skies,

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

that if you're prepared there, you're going to ruin an army coming through.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Of course, the Russians aren't prepared there.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then they also would have known it, the Liaodong Peninsula, it has a very narrow neck.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If you cut the narrow neck, which is right where Dalny is, a big commercial port, you're going to get that port, which is connected to the railway, and you're going to be able to supply your armies going right up north.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

In addition, it means you're probably going to get Port Arthur, the big naval base as well, because it's basically been turned into an island and you'll probably get that.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So the Russians should have figured out that they, but they didn't.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The Japanese literally blast through these locations.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And here's the key to reducing the fleet in Port Arthur.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Since the Russians wouldn't sortie, they're just sticking in harbor.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So the Japanese have to figure out a way to do it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Here's how it works.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They have to get a bunch of these 11-inch howitzers in place.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Japan didn't own many of these.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They're really heavy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's really hard to transport them with horses and things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They've got to put them behind the hills in Port Arthur, and then they've got to take the high point, which takes them a while to figure out that they need to do this, a 203-meter hill.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You put a spotter on 203-meter hill, this thing starts firing shots, and the spotter starts radioing in how you have to adjust the line of fire in order to hit the ships and harbor.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So that's

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

what's going on here.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Here, you can see the narrow neck there above Dalny.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You can see it's a big port where you put a lot of ships, but not a very protected port.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The star is where Port Arthur is, and that is a protected port where you want to put naval vessels.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And you can see it takes the Japanese two months to work their way down the Liaodong Peninsula to get themselves in position to blow away the ships in port.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Meanwhile, Japanese armies are having a hard time while this is going on.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It could be argued that maybe they even reached their culminating point in the battle of Liaoyang.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Who knows?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Liaoyang takes place less than halfway through the war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's in early September, 1904.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And Japanese munitions, numbers of officers, numbers of horses, it all goes critical.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They don't have enough.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They get away with it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They win the battle, but the Russians have an organized retreat northward.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And at the Battle of Shaka, which happens next in October,

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

the Japanese supply system almost collapses, but they get away with it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so bad things are going on at land.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Japan doesn't have an infinite supply of soldiers.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So you can also look, they don't have an infinite supply of artillery, howitzers and things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Here are their gun emplacements.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Notice the green ones are army guns emplacements around Port Arthur.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That makes sense.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

What's all the purple?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They have so few guns, they're pulling them off ships.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

in order to reduce Port Arthur, and all these things they really need up in Manchuria.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They need Nogi, General Nogi, who's running all of this, his army up in Manchuria.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And there you can see the circle is where 203-meter hill is, that they need to take that as well.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

All right, so General Nogi, who is commanding the Third Army, which is in charge of the siege, he is really desperate to reduce the fortress as soon as possible.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And he runs four different really costly infantry assaults on a fortress where you're killing lots of Japanese young men.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And he tells them...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The first two occur right prior to major battles, Liaoyang and Shaha respectively, because he wants to win those battles, win Port Arthur, so then he can take his guns and troops to fight at Liaoyang and Shaha.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, it's not to be because he loses both of them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

the salts are insufficient.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it's only after the second one that he realizes the importance of 203 meter hill.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The problem is Nogi gets 45,000 Japanese soldiers killed doing this.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

45,000 soldiers in that day is an entire army.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And I've already pointed out that Japan only had foreign armies until the very end of the war when it tries to cobble together a fifth one.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Here's what 203-meter hill looks like from down below.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Here's what it looks like from up top, the kind of view you get.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

When there was a truce in early December 1904, and there was some talking between Japanese and Russian officers, Russian officers said, you will never capture 203-meter hill, to which the Japanese officer replied, we'll purchase it in blood.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And they did.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And their gamble paid off because all these ships, you'll notice they're listing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's because they ain't sailing anywhere.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The 203-meter hill, they take it the end of November.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And within the week, they are now sinking all of these battleships.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And they're gone within a few days.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the Russians...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

give up at Port Arthur, and the Third Army is up and heading into Manchuria, where it'll be there for the Battle of Mukden, which is a huge battle.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's got, what, 500,000 troops?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But even so, Russia can muster 125,000 more troops than Japan can.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Japan, in this battle, is just taking anybody, young boys, old people, whoever they can put into that army, they're putting into it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And you could argue that they're well beyond their culminating point of attack.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But for incompetent Russian strategy, if the Russians had run one more battle against the Japanese, their Japanese supply lines would have collapsed.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it's unclear how far down the Liaodong Peninsula they would have had to retreat.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So this is when Japan's war termination plan goes into effect.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The Japanese realized from the very beginning that they had a high risk, high reward strategy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And in contrast to World War II, they had a really carefully prepared exit strategy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So when Prime Minister Ito Hirabumi is convening the cabinet and they're gonna make the decision to fire the first shots in this war, he is already lining up a Harvard grad

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I hear Viscount Caneco, who was an acquaintance of President Theodore Roosevelt of the United States, then president.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And what they want is to have Viscount Caneco work on getting Roosevelt ready to do mediation at the end of this war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the peace treaty is going to be held in, negotiations are going to be held in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, negotiated by another Harvard alumnus, Baron Komura.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

who's going to do all of that.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Meanwhile, Ito sends his son-in-law, who's a diet member, but also a graduate of Cambridge University, off to Britain to keep the Anglo-Japanese alliance solid.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So the Japanese are very aware that you've got to have a way out of this thing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's in the Battle of Mukden that Field Marshal Yamagata decides it's time to call the American card at this moment.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

He said, look, the enemy is never going to request peace unless we have invaded Moscow or St.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Petersburg, something he knows to be impossible.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And he doesn't assess me.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So look, the enemy still has powerful forces in its home country.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

We have already exhausted ours.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Second, while the enemy still does not run out of officers, we have lost a great number since the opening of the war and cannot easily replace them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

At this moment, the Russian army was three times the size of the Japanese army.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And that army in theater was increasingly comprised of crack soldiers, not the kind of colonial kind of soldiers they'd started out with.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Here's the field marshal, Yamagata, who in the first Sino-Japanese War, because the government in Tokyo was afraid he was going to march on Beijing and do regime change, they pulled him out of theater and gave him a sinecure to make sure he didn't do that.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

This time, he's a wiser man.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

He goes, we must now be prudent.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And here are other members of this brilliant Meiji generation, the chief of staff of the Manchurian army.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

He said, look, if you start a fire, you've got to put it out.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And here is the field marshal Oyama, who is the commander of Manchurian forces.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But before he sets out to take command, he tells the Navy minister, I will care for fighting in Manchuria, but I'm counting you as the man to tell me when to quit.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So the Navy is going to be the fire department, apparently.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

To tell you what the Navy was up to, they took Elliott Island to turn it into a cruiser base, and that's how they're running the blockade operations on Port Arthur of keeping the Russian fleet in until they can eventually sink it there.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

In addition, the Imperial Japanese Navy is busy laying mines.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

A lot of ships go down to mines.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

This is an interesting story.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So Nicholas II, Tsar of Russia, doesn't much like it that his fleet is just sitting in port, not doing anything.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so he sends Admiral Makarov out there to assume command.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And I've had the misfortune to read Makarov's major literary contribution, which is all about naval strategy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And he's a real hero in Russia.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But then I read his book.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's unbelievable.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If you face a big ship, what do you do?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

A more powerful ship, you attack.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If it's a smaller ship, what do you do?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You attack.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's like, okay, one size fits all.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I mean, how unanalytical.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Here's what happens to him.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

He comes in theater and within a month, another spoiler alert, he's dead.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

How did that happen?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

He followed his strategy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That's how it happened.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

What he does, he arrives.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Everyone's really excited because he's getting the guys out and thinking they're going to be doing things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But on April 12th, the evening before he dies, there are a bunch of Japanese ships laying mines out of the harbor's entrance, and he mistakes them for Russian ships and tells his people, don't fire on them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Oops.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the next morning when he sorties with the whole fleet to be part of his, we're going to, it's always take the offensive.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, they didn't sweep the harbor insurance for mines.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

His ship hits a mine and he goes down with a ship.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

All right.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That is a tactical error.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And he's a dead man because of it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

However, there's a much more important strategic error that follows.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Two weeks later, Nicholas II decides to send his Baltic fleet, named for the Baltic, that's where it is, all the way around to come and relieve the siege at Port Arthur in order to avenge all of this thing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Okay, what's the problem with that plan?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, that's the problem with that plan, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's a long way to go.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

There is no air conditioning for the sailors, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They come from northern climes.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

By the time they arrive, they're mutinous.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Their ships are covered with barnacles, which means they don't move very fast.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Meanwhile, once Port Arthur has fallen,

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

the Japanese immediately refit their navy so they were good to go.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so the way this blunder plays out, well, if you think about Britain, Britain will do these worldwide adventures, but they had a complete basing system across the globe so that their ships had coaling stations, they could refit, put more water on, give people some R&R time, relaxation and things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And also the British were very careful to fight on their own terms whenever possible.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You don't wanna fight on the enemy's terms.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, guess what?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You're gonna be fighting right next to Japan, barnacle ships and mutinous crews.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That's not gonna go well for you.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the Japanese know because now that Port Arthur falls while this expedition is taking place, so then the purpose of the expedition is no longer there.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They should have taken a U-turn and go home, but no, no, no, they're going to keep on going.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So there is only one other possible location for them, which is an inferior base up at Vladivostok.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So the Japanese know there are three ways to get to Vladivostok if you're coming up from the south.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You're either going to go the long, long way around through the Perus Strait, and it's awfully narrow, and it's the long way around.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You can go through the Sugaru Strait, which is a little wider, but it goes by a bunch of big Japanese army bases and also a very large port of Hakodate.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You want to do that, that's kind of risky.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So the short way is to go through the Korea Strait, which is broken in the middle by the Tsushima Islands.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the Tsushima Strait is to the east.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's 20 to 25 miles wide at its narrowest point.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And that's the short way, which is what the Russians take.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And guess what?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They have a welcoming party there of all these newly refitted Japanese ships that know exactly what they're up to.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the Battle of Tsushima is one of the most...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

lopsided naval battles in human history the Japanese just either sink or commandeer basically the entire fleet proving the Russians had no idea of how to do naval strategy that the Navy had been a product of a bunch of aristocrats who the one who ran it was a guy who was known for what was it fast women and slow ships it did not work out well for them

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

All right, while the negotiations are being held on whether to hold negotiations, President Roosevelt suggested to the Japanese that they try to take Sakhalin Island.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You can see the tip end of the Japanese home island, Hokkaido, and then there's Sakhalin.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Why?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Because it's much more valuable to the Russians than the Japanese, and it would be a good trade-back item in the peace negotiations.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Because for Japan, it's a nice fishing ground, but for Russia, it's sovereign Russian territory.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Horror is ceding that sovereign Russian territory to anyone, let alone an Asian power, given the prejudices of the day.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

All right, to sum up what Japan got out of this war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It got its immediate war objective, Russian troop withdrawal from Echaria.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That's what they wanted.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And they get this Japanese sphere of influence in Korea.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That's what they wanted.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But guess, remember at the very beginning, they wanted to trade Japanese predominance in Korea for Russian predominance

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

in Manchuria, whoa, well, so what they really got, they got the southern half of Sakhalin Island, Russian territory.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They got southern Manchuria, and it's actually arguably the valuable half, the southern half, because that has Port Arthur and Dalmy and all the railways that Russians had invested there.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then it confirms the outcome of the first Sino-Japanese War, that Japan is indeed the dominant power of Asia.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So I rest my case.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Japan did it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Smart decisions in Japan is what overturned the balance of power in Asia.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Okay, but I promised you a counter-argument.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

What would a smart person say who disagrees with me?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And here's a perfectly good counter-argument, which would say,

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Yeah, it's great you think the Japanese are so clever, but actually China faced a perfect storm of catastrophes.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And because China imploded, that's why it leaves Japan on top in Asia.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The primary factor is that China's falling apart.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And this perfect storm of problems, I'll go through three, it's always a good number, people can remember three things, talking about the civil wars afflicting China, that in an age of accelerating European imperialism, and also the Manchus who ran China, they're only 2% of the population, were suffering from all kinds of dynastic decline, which I will get into.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

China had reached its pre-industrial limits to growth.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Its population kept on going up and up, but its agricultural predictivity just could not feed people.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so people are trying to farm really marginal lands.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Either they're too vertical, they don't have reliable rainfall, and you're getting massive soil erosion doing these things, and you're also getting a lot of famines.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And famines are both the cause and the effect of civil wars.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And this map, you can just see, I've named some of the big rebellions on this one.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's to give you a sense that these rebellions affect all of China, not just a little here and there, but a lot of everywhere.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And now I'm gonna give you a table

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And this is a simplified table.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It only goes 1845 to 1895.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's part of a much bigger table that would cover the entire 19th century.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And that table is an oversimplification.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So the point is, this is not business as usual.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

In the red box, that is the height of these rebellions, 1851 to 1878.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The biggest rebellion in there is the Taipings.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's estimated that 20 million people died in the Taiping rebellion.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

to put that figure in perspective.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And people don't know how many people died in all these things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

China didn't know how many people they had, much less how many people they lost.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But to give you a sense of it, in World War II, it's estimated that 55 million people died.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So you're talking 20 million just in the Taipings, and I have no idea how all this adds up.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But it's huge.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The Chinese like to talk about these as being rebellions or uprisings.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Give me a break.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They're civil wars.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

A whole bunch of them want to overthrow the dynasty in Beijing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

A whole other set of them want to secede from the empire, often these minority people who just want the Han, the predominant people to go away, or the Manchus in this era.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So some of these provinces are devastated for generations.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Okay, so that's point one, these civil wars.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Point two is

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

is this coincided with an era of accelerating European imperialism where Europeans and also Japan, Japanese are carving out massive spheres of influence for themselves.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So the Chinese are not gonna have sovereignty over their country, full sovereignty for a very, very long time.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the story, the worst part gets even worse.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

This happens to China because China loses a succession of regional wars.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It loses the First Opium War, the Second Opium War.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The Japanese snagged the Ryukyu Islands.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then in the Sino-French War, China loses control over Indochina.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then in the Sino-Japanese War, they're losing their tributary of Korea.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The Ili Crisis is up and Xinjiang goes a little better for them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

This is a mess.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

This is not business as usual.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Think about one country being afflicted by this much trouble.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then it comes at a time when the Manchus are in real trouble themselves.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They had ridden to power on these fabulous cavalries and in tremendous operational success for people who are only 2% of the population that they dominate, and they transformed China into the richest polity around China.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

of the globe by the 18th century.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But here's the problem with their tremendous success in their military campaigns.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They're overextending China financially.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Inside the round circle there, that's China proper.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

These are the core provinces of China that produce all the income.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But the Manchus came in from Manchuria up there, but they also take Mongolia, Xinjiang, and Tibet.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The areas that cost not Manchuria so much, but the other ones, they cost a lot of garrisoning

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It costs a lot of money to garrison these places.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so it looks like a great success, but it's going to have problems later on.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then here's what happens to the Manchu emperors.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They no longer ride at the head of their armies.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The Qianlong emperor who's considered to be ruled at the height of the dynasty, what's he spending his money on?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

All sorts of interesting architectural programs.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And that's why people think he's great, builds beautiful things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But these emperors are isolated.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They don't have command experience, expensive spending habits, and then it gets better.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So they got all these tributaries.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Some of their tributaries produce really high quality opium.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the emperors decide they want to sample the goods.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the people who are preparing it for them also want to sample the goods.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then the Manchu banner forces that are the Praetorian guard of the Manchus are also sampling the goods.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then you go, why are the last Qing emperors incapable of producing offspring or have hardly any?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Because they got huge harems.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So what's their problem?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well,

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, if you're really totally high on drugs, you can ruin yourself.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so that is what goes on.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

No wonder they're losing these wars if some of your key thinkers are not thinking very clearly.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So the counter-argument to my argument says, look, it's nonsense.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I mean, the Japanese may have been really clever, but this is the real big event.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's this massive series of civil wars, European imperialism, and the collapse of Manchu minority rule.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That would be the real thing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Now, if I leave my argument here, I've just shot myself in the foot because I've just decimated my original argument with a pretty good counter-argument, and that would be bad.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That would hurt.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So you need to do a rebuttal, and it's really good to come from an unexpected direction.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So I'm going to try my direction, which is going to be Russia, and say, look—

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Russia is the catalyst.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's taking advantage of the collapse of China.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it's going to catalyze things in a way that Japan is going to leverage.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it's going to be Japan leveraging these things that proves that smart decisions in Tokyo answers the question.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So what's going on with Russia?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Russia has always tries to expand its territory.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It is today the largest country on the planet.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Why they need more territory, nobody knows.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But that's what they're after.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And in these days, what they're taking are those two large areas.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And by the time the Bolsheviks finished working their magic, Russians have taken from the Chinese sphere of influence.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The Bolsheviks are beyond today, but it gives you a sense.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They took more territory today

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

from Chinese fear of influence than the United States east of the Mississippi.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

There's a lot of territory.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But in this day, while the opium wars are going on, and while the Taiping and Nian rebellions, the two big ones, are happening simultaneously, the Russians go to the Qing and say, hey, we'll deal with those foreigners for you.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

We'll be an intermediary, but just sign on the dotted line for these treaties, giving us all this land.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the Chinese were vague on

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

geography and they didn't believe in treaties.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They thought they'd get it back later.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So Russia gets all this stuff, does exactly nothing because we know about the treaty port system and the British and French got all of it and Russia got this stuff too.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Once Russia gets this stuff, that's why they want the railway because they want to integrate it in there.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So the Trans-Siberian Railway is the blue thing, but understand that the blue part that's above the green part

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That wasn't built until World War I. Russia builds the green part, which is the Chinese Eastern Railway, the name of it, in order to stake out its plans for empire.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And also notice it wants the warm water port, that's the orange part going down to Port Arthur, because Vladivostok, prior to the age of icebreakers, is frozen solid several months of the year.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So Russia's buildings, railways, save on construction costs is more direct going straight across Manchuria, contain Japan, stake out its claim to Manchuria.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The Japanese get it, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, that was earlier in this lecture.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They see this coming and they don't like it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

In addition, what's going on, the Chinese don't particularly like all the imperialists messing with their country.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so the Boxers is another rebellion.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And these folks want all Westerners out of China and they want to kill any stragglers.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And they go into, they're all over China.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They go into Manchuria and the Russians send 100,000 troops, far more than any of the European powers or even Japan sends a lot.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

to the rest of China to defeat the Boxers, which they do.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then the other Westerners in Japan remove their troops.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Russia doesn't.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And this is the thing that gets Japan's attention because Russia's got 100,000 troops in Manchuria that won't leave.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And that's when Japan is sick of Russia procrastinating.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And we're going to wind up

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

getting into the Russo-Japanese War.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So guess what?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

We're back to my original explanation, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The Japanese finessed all of this, and they wind up on top, and it's by being very thoughtful in their grand strategy that they reverse the balance of power.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So I'm going to end this thing with General Nogi.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

General Nogi is the

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

one who oversaw the four assaults on Port Arthur.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

He lost both of his sons in this war, one in the Battle of Nanshan, which is down the Latom Peninsula, and then his other, his favorite, under his command in Port Arthur.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

When the war was over, he asked the Meiji Emperor if he could commit ritual suicide, and the emperor said no.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So when the Meiji emperor died, he and his wife did.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And this poem helps explain why.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Imperial troops, a million strong, conquered an arrogant enemy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But siege and field warfare left a mountain of corpses.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Ashamed, what face can I show to old parents?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

How many men have returned this day of triumphal song?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Wars bring much sorrow.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so I'll leave you with that.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And thank you very much for your attention.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, one is the railway is a bottleneck.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Japan's starting the war deliberately while that bottleneck is bottled.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So that's one factor.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Russia has massive troops.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Also, the Russians are arrogant, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They think Japanese.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Initially, the Russians think they're going to do regime change in Tokyo.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That's their plan.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

How they plan to get to Tokyo is a mystery, but never mind.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so they don't realize what they need.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's a fairly common problem in wars is gross underestimation of the other side, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That's what's going on in Ukraine right now.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Putin missed that one.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

He's not the only one, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Hitler underestimated the Russians in World War II.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then you go, well, why is everybody, what's going on with Japan now?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it had a really, those Meiji reforms, they have an educated population.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Russian soldiers are a bunch of illiterates.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the Russian soldiers are going, what?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Why are we fighting in Manchuria?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Tell me precisely why I'm here getting killed.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The Russian soldiers had no buy-in.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And you can ask, what exactly did the Russians want there?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Apparently, there were some royal...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

uh favorites who thought that they were going to get some lucrative timber concessions on the korean border okay let's go into logistics i've never heard there was a shortage of wood in european russia ever and then they're going to ship it all the way back

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

This is a non-performing economic model.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

In addition, Nicholas II is an incompetent czar.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And he's hiring—the guy who's running the Navy is also incompetent.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Their Navy gets no training whatsoever.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So great, you have expensive ships, but no one's trained in how to use them, whereas the Japanese have.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the Japanese, it's the value of the object, one of these concepts.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

How valuable is it to win for Japan versus Russia?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, for Russia, it's already the biggest country in the planet, and there's nothing really that exciting out in Asia from their point of view.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Maybe for Nicholas, because he wants to be a great czar and add to the empire.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That would be a nice thing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But when the Germans come after him in World War II, World War I, I think he's going to care about the other things more.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So that's one for the Japanese, rightly or wrongly, their government and educated people consider it existential.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And they're looking at China going, that's our future if we don't fix things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And they're thinking the solution for Japan is empire because in those days, that seemed to be the way powerful countries ran things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So it's a combination of,

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So legitimate logistical bottlenecks.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Japan, since they're going to be starting this thing, massive preparations.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The Russians aren't planning to fight this thing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They're thinking that I determine whether wars begin or end.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Excuse me, they don't.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Tsar Nicholas might, but his population is fighting it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

This is the power of institutions.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Japan clearly can mobilize.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Boy, is it doing well with the loans and all sorts of things?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Right.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's using these institutions.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Whereas Russia, remember, it doesn't have a legislature.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The czar doesn't have a cabinet in the sense he has ministers, but they don't ever show up at his house at the same time to sit around a table.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

He's just doing them one at a time.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then the Romanov family have lots of first cousins, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Everybody's having lots of kids, and so you've got a million first cousins.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And they are all deployed throughout the ministries, basically being the spy system for the Romanov family of what's going on.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Are any of these nice, rich boys particularly competent?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

No.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Look at a map, and you'll see the railway grid is much more extensive in European Russia.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And this is where Count Sergei Vita, their finest minister of the late Tsarist period, he's the one who's trying to do his version of a Meiji Restoration in his purview, which is the finance ministry, financing all these railways.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So there are many more railways.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And this is where Russia's population is.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

This is where their historical security threats come from.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And Russians can get on board with protecting European borders.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's the part through Manchuria.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's not the one that goes on their side of the boundary.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I don't know the answer, but I know Japanese, I mean, talk about a culture that's about detail, about hard work, about service to the emperor, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I've done in your earlier podcast series, a whole series about Bushido, that they're imbued with service to the emperor and that if you go in wars, you win them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so that's part of their culture.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Now, Russians also don't like being messed with when people invade them, but this time they're invading other people in an irrelevant part of the empire.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it's at a time when Russia is trying to industrialize itself, but they haven't put enough money into their education system.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So they have a bunch of illiterate troops running around.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And let's face it, how can you read any of the manuals or do anything?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Oh, yeah, and some of their generals.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

One of them didn't know what a howitzer was, one of the guys who's planning stuff.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And he can't read maps.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The level of incompetence of having royal favorites in your officer corps, well, they make these decisions.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Also, there's split command in the Russo-Japanese War.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So there's General Kurapatkin, who is the professional, who's actually...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

had fought in the Ottomans, but those are colonial wars, and he'd won some of those.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

He's a professional.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But then Admiral Alexeyev, who's the illegitimate son of, I can't remember which czar, and a favorite uncle, I believe, of Nicholas II, he's out there, and no one knows who's actually in command except the royal favorite is probably the better bet.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so Kurapotkin...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

wants to not engage the Japanese until they're way inland because he wants to extend their lines and then clobber them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And all these aristocrats don't know what they're talking about.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So, no, no, no, no, no, we're not going to let these racial inferiors do whatever.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

We're going to take them on immediately.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, okay.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Try that.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Kirk Potkin's strategy probably would have worked.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Just bring them on inland and let them enjoy it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Like Napoleon Bonaparte.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You want to get to Moscow?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Have at it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Then try winter in Moscow.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, I'm going to give you a tangential answer.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Then you tell me what I'm missing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The sorrow of Russia is here they have this incredible land, natural resources and the works.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And they're really hung up on empire, on having lots of territory.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And they live in a difficult neighborhood.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Vita is telling Nicholas, forget about the Asian adventures.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

We need to build more railways in European Russia now.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And he was right, because if they could have mobilized better in World War I, you might get some different outcomes.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Also, you might have avoided the food riots in St.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Petersburg, which is what topples the Rolatov dynasty.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If you'd actually provided enough food to St.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Petersburg, maybe you don't have those riots because you have the railways running and things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so Russia is a story of misinvestment.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Look at it today.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If Putin had taken all of his oil money and invested it in the transportation grid, because believe it or not, Russia still just does things by train.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Its road systems are appallingly bad.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And if Russia actually cleaned up its legal system, which under the Tsars it hadn't done either, everything is always royal monopolies.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If they had cleaned up these things to allow individuals to make their own investments and make money, it'd be a completely different story.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But Tsars couldn't stand merchants.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Communists hated them even more.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And cultural differences.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then the Russians aren't known for being meticulous and hardworking the way Japanese are.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Russians are known to be hard drinkers, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And they're also known for being brutal, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Unclear whether it's going to collapse.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That's a good argument.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

He might be right.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

This is why I think we'll never get definitive answers because you don't have to be in Nicholas II's brain, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's an autocracy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

What he decides matters.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I dare say if he had been Peter the Great, the guy who tortured his only son to death...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

and suffered numerous setbacks, I doubt that he would have had any problems dealing with rioting Russians.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

He would have figured out who are loyal units and then just blow away whatever's getting in his way.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And he would have done his initial, his next battle.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then when he won that battle, the Russian revolution would have gone away because they would have gone, see, we did it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

We got these people.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So, but it's, Kotkin's argument is a very good one.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But it's, to me, it's Nicholas Sassen's incompetent leadership is the bigger thing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then you're arguing about how important is the rebellion and how deep rooted it is.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And you'll never know, right, what this...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Kotkin could be absolutely right.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And I think this is a reason, one of the reasons I gave the counter-argument is to get used to understanding ambiguity and appreciating that other people could be right and you may not know.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

One of them is, in both cases, Japan's seeing a window of opportunity that I got to operate in this window and get it over with.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it works out.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If you're doing that, that's a high-risk strategy to get away with it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so this is back to that they were just lucky argument.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Another thing is you can look at why certain wars turn out.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And another concept is a cooperative adversary.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

What's a cooperative adversary?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's not one that wants to cooperate with you, but it's one that doesn't play its cards remotely well.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And if you can think about

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

literally playing cards.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If you're playing a game with a little child, they're trying to win, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But they're a cooperative adversary because they just don't know how to play whatever the game is.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And you could argue that Nicholas II is a cooperative adversary, and that's required, and the United States is not remotely a cooperative adversary, and it goes really badly for Japan.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then it's also, there's another piece, which is...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

When you run one successful war, quite often you think it was easier than it actually was and less risky than it actually was.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Like this country does Gulf I, where the allies pay for the whole thing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

No Americans die, hardly at all.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Loads of Iraqis die.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They're out of Kuwait within days.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I mean, wow.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then people are complaining we should have marched on to Baghdad.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, okay, we did that.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That didn't work out so well.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But then after you do one of these things and you think you're good to go, and in Japan's case, between the two, Sino-Japanese War and the Russo-Japanese War, it shifted the balance of civil and military power in Japan.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And people thought that it's the military officers that did the right thing and that the diplomats lost the peace.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

In the Russo-Japanese War, they're saying we didn't get a big indemnity, like as we did in the last war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well,

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You're getting the whole Russian railway system.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That's an indemnity in kind, but that's not what they're seeing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So it shifts the balance of power.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then in addition, this Meiji generation, the prime civil leader, Ito Hirabumi, is assassinated by a Korean revolutionary leader.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

because the Koreans don't much like Japanese and their empire.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So he dies, oh gosh, it's a decade plus before Yamagata does.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so that gives Yamagata and military friends another decade to insinuate the roots of military institutions and civil institutions are not being built.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then you can go, well,

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Look at the Japanese.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They're incompetent because their institution building was inadequate.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, in one generation, you can't do it all, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Institutions take generations to really sink roots.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So they did as much as they could in a generation.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But their leadership was bereft compared to them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

This is why the Meiji generation is truly a brilliant set of leaders.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And what comes after their children and grandchildren are not.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Yeah, individuals, trends, the whole thing matters.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And there's no saying, I mean, maybe if he'd stuck around it, everything would have been the same.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Since you can't rerun the experiment, this is where, again, counterarguments are useful on so many human endeavors.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You just don't have complete data.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And when you're doing things in the here and now, maybe the data will come in a little later or it just doesn't exist.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And yet you've got to make decisions.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so if you're not willing to change your mind, you're just going to double down on bad decisions.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it's incredible the number of people who don't want to change their minds.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And that's why I made a big to-do about giving the argument-counterargument-rebuttal framework because I think it helps get you out of the rut so that you can change your mind.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Like, you're going to tell me that Kotkin's got this thing and I'm wrong.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I'm gay.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Maybe he's right.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I don't care who's right.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I care what's right.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You're missing the whole war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Their war is with China.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

instead of isolating the adversary, they bring in a whole new slew of adversaries, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They're having trouble with China.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That's the second sign of Japanese war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

We get all excited when we're involved, but it starts in 1931, and their objective soon becomes an unlimited objective.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They eventually want to do regime change in China.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Whereas in the first Sino-Japanese War, Yamagata's thinking about doing regime change and the government pulls him out because it's, buddy, don't do that.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

We're going to have all kinds of foreign powers intervening if you try.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then in the Russo-Japanese War, they're not trying to do regime change in Russia.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But in the second Sino-Japanese War, they absolutely are trying to do regime change.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They get more and more frustrated.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Then their solution to that one is to attack all the colonial interest in Asia.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That's when Pearl Harbor happens.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then they're bringing us, the British, and that brings the British Commonwealth.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So it's Australia and New Zealand that do significant fighting.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then the Netherlands.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So it's a different event.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Russia has just a phenomenal illiteracy rate.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's an empire, which I think gets in the way.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If you look at how many non-Russian people they're trying to dominate, it's like they're perennially overextended, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Because they're perennially occupying places that don't actually make them much money.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

In fact, they probably cost them more money to hang on to.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so they're perennially doing that.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I believe the Japanese are known to be incredibly hardworking.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I believe the Chinese are known to be very hardworking.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I have never heard anyone say the Russians are known to be hardworking.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Maybe I missed something.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I've heard they're like artists and they have the Russian, their soul.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Okay, great.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I mean, that's like a big excuse to say, well, you know, we may fail at everything, but our soul is superior.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So I think there are these other things that are at work.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And in Germany, it's the center of Europe.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's a highly developed place.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It already has high levels of literacy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

There's a lot more to work with in Germany.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it already has a better infrastructure for Russia.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's huge when you're trying to build railway systems.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Just enormous.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And think about Trans-Siberian.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If you just took all that track, just lengthened, put it all over European Russia, you really have something there.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

All right, well, first of all, he's the founding father of modern China.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's one of the few things that the Taiwanese and the PRC agree on, that he's the founding father of modern China, and it's positive what they think about him.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Remember when I told you on the Russo-Japanese War how they're paying for everything in Manchuria?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

that the Chinese actually thought that that one, that it would be a good thing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Also understand when the Manchus lose, it's in Chinese, the war is called the Qing Japanese War, Manchu Japanese War.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So the Japanese are defeating the Manchus, who you may not particularly like if you're a Han nationalist.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So you can relate to that.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the Japanese were not...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, they got in and out of that thing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so I think that's the key.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the really, really, really ugly, brutal stuff is going to happen in the Second Sino-Japanese War, where the Japanese do things that are unforgivable.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The problem for...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The first Sino-Japanese War, it's detonating Confucianism.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so what's it going to replace that with?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Sun Yat-sen is going to do nationalism and work it that way.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But I think that's the big answer.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But you're quite right that as things went on, as it sinks in, that Japan is the dominant player in Asia, because first you have a war and that's happened, but you're

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

focusing on all your civil wars and other stuff, and it hasn't sunk in that this is not an exception, it's going to go on for a century, I suspect that it's gradual for the Chinese to get really upset about Japanese in particular.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it's what they do in the Second Sino-Japanese War.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's unbelievable.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Because when they start losing, they get brutal.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Yeah.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Martial resources.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It is, but there's another piece.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

China's not really a unified state in this period.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If you think about what people's loyalties are, it's to province and place.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's not to the whole China.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I mean, they're all part of it, but it's to place.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I'll give you an example.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So China has...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

three fleets.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the ones that I've been talking about and use is the Northern Fleet.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And in the Sino-French War, the Southern Fujian Fleet or whatever it is, the Southern one that's fighting in, well, it's into China in those days.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It wants the Northern Fleet to come down and help them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the Northern Fleet says, hell no.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So in the Sino-Japanese War, when the Northern Fleet wants the Southern Fleet to come help it, the answer is hell no.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it also has to do with how are these forces being financed?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Provincial governors are financing it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so they want to use these forces for province.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They don't want to send it out of province.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And in the traditional world, where China is just worrying about some barbarians on horses way often, wherever, that works well enough.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Because if they come riding in, you can probably eventually deal with it in province one.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it'll eventually work.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But all of a sudden, these Western powers come.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then the Chinese very foolishly fight in the treaty ports.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And what they should have done is said, hey, come on in 25 miles and see how you like it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

All right, let's try 50.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the British would have had real trouble with that.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it's a real failure of strategy that they can just own.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So they love to complain about the foreign Chinese today, about foreign imperialists, and they don't look at their own gross incompetence.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

What is it?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

This country, we're dealing with Britain.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Britain's a lot closer to us than it was to China.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Their population was larger than the American colonists.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And George Washington and friends gave them a run for their money.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The Chinese, what's their problem?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They should have been able to deal with it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But it's a case of lacking leadership, lacking institutions, that these things matter.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You even have all the resources in the world.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So this country needs to watch it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

We may have all the resources in the world, but if we don't organize ourselves appropriately, or if we do a whole bunch of own goals with our own leadership, it will cause problems.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

constant warfare.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Under the Qing, local areas had to finance all of the government.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The central government didn't finance hardly anything, and that was always a problem.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it led to massive corruption because if you don't have a budget, then you have to do some way of getting graft or something from people to pay for things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So this is enduring.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it's a different institutional setup of how you're going to run things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Institutions matter.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They channel decision-making.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They channel how money can or can't be made.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's consequential.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Because it's a gross underestimation of the enemy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They're thinking, these people are a bunch of nobodies.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then Nicholas II had an unfortunate incident in Japan.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Who knows whether this influenced him or not.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So he does the royal tour, right, while his dad's still alive.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And he goes all the way around, winds up in Japan, and a samurai there or somebody tries to assassinate him with a sword.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So Nicholas always has a scar up here.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so I imagine that didn't leave happy memories of Tsarevich.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Yes, whatever.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Anyway, that's what happened to him.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But I think it's the feeling that there's no need, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it goes back to grossly underestimating other people and the problem with racism.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You know, you think you're so special and other people are so unspecial.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Wrong.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then the Japanese are amazing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Think about it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They're on the group of seven, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

of major economies, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's major economies and major democracies.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They're the only non-Western power there.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And they don't get there out of charity.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's out of their own achievements.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So it's an enormous achievement.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And what's tragic about World War II

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

is if they hadn't done that, people will be looking at the Meiji reforms in order to model what they're going to do to get over the hump and develop.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And in fact, a lot of the things that Deng Xiaoping does in terms of investments and things rhymes with Meiji reforms.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And if you look at the, what is it, the four little tigers that originally Singapore, Hong Kong, and

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

was it Korea and Taiwan, whatever I'm missing, a lot of their development, it parallels in a lot of ways of what the Meiji reformers did.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, these are Japanese ideas, but they're not getting credit for them because of the brutality of World War II, where you're thinking of that and thinking, well, if I say nice things about Japan, it's I'm endorsing this other stuff.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

No, they're two separate topics, different generations.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Yeah, you have to learn how to use it, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And you have to maintain it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The Russians had this fancy fleet that their aristocrats wanted to buy, so they're good at cutting checks.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But they aren't doing any training on it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If you do numbers of days, like days at sea for the Russians, it's laughable.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And also it's cold, so all winter no one's going anywhere, whereas the Japanese are constantly deploying their forces and they're doing all kinds of practice and things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So you can imagine if you don't do any practice, it's not going to go very well for you.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But the counterargument to this technology is –

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If the value of the object is high, and if you're like an intervening power messing in somebody else's country, it may not matter on the technology, or it matters, but that these people will never give up.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So in the American Revolution, the British had us on technology.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I mean, it's incredible.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They actually could supply, in an age of sale and horses, they could supply things by sailboats and keep it going.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But we were just totally obnoxious and we would never give up, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And this is the problem with the United States in Afghanistan.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Talk about a backwards place.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It does get more backwards.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Or Iraq is the locals just never gave up.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They may not have the technology, but it's like, it's our house.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

We want you out of here.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

We're never quitting.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And this would be Russia's problem in Ukraine.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's going to go on.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So technology is important, but also the value of the object.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

What is the relative value of whatever you think when is?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And if you look at...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If you're an Iraqi, it's a lot higher for you than it is for some American intervening there.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Or if you're looking for Japan and empire, it's a lot higher for Japanese who are looking at China and thinking that's going to be their fate.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And maybe they're misidentifying the cure.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That's a whole different matter.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But that's what they look at it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Then for Russia, which is who even cares?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

There's nothing this part of the world actually offers Russia other than bigger, more lines on a map that looks bigger.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

At least one president gets one.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Different types of wars.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

One's a war for unlimited objectives, which is what World War I eventually becomes.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

We're trying to do regime change all over the place, which is... Whereas you're doing a limited war for Japan.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Japan, you also... You have to have a feasible objective.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Japan had demanded more at those peace talks, Nicholas II would have gone back to war and he would have slaughtered them because he had all these crack troops that are just sitting there in theater and the Japanese literally don't have the men.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So that Russia, it's got three times the army now.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's there and they can bring them in at 100,000 a month.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And we just saw the Mukden where the Russians had 125,000 more men than the Japanese.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, if they can ship in 100,000 a month, wait a few months, and then it's going to get really ugly.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So it wasn't feasible.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And there's another piece.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So you're going to go fight a war.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then you lose a lot of people.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And that's why the Japanese are feeling they should have gotten more because you've got General Nogi who's committing suicide over this.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the poem at the very beginning I showed you, the Meiji Emperor also has this feeling of sorrow, is that war, as you start losing, this is Putin's problem.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

He's lost so many people.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

He didn't feel sorrow, but he needs to get revenge that's equivalent

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

to make up for that.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So the longer these wars go on, the harder it is to stop them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so on Versailles, it's a different story because there is an unwillingness to enforce the peace, and there is also a feeling of, particularly in France and also Britain, to get really even with the Germans.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then the United States is an irresponsible power in those days, where one of the reasons you get World War II has to do with the Great Depression, which is not strictly related to the Versailles peace term, term, terminating the war, that if you hadn't had the Great Depression, maybe the Versailles settlement would have been good enough.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

We'll never know.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And one of the reasons the Great Depression gets so bad is because this country is

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

doesn't want to act as the lender of last resort, which is what Britain had done in the past, but it couldn't after World War I. It had been bankrupted, and our country's irresponsible.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

These problems are on the other side of the sea, and we think, okay, America first and whatever.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And we're going to raise tariffs and things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And all we do is tank the global system.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Whereas if you're the lender of last resort, you're going to put money into the system as it's collapsing to prevent it from collapsing so that it can rebound.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And that's why it's important to do that.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And yeah, it's expensive.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But boy, Great Depression is a lot more expensive.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So there are different problems.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Isn't that the problem?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, that's what the IMF and things are about.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But it used to be that this country was willing to take on these burdens of last resort in the area of nuclear weapons, nuclear shield, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And we're trying to shed these things right now.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And we shall see.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, at bare minimum, it'll make us the sort of the irrelevant power instead of the essential power because Europe is going to

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

reorganize itself.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And they have the institutions to do it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the United States used to be the leader of the West.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, it's going back home to Europe.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Europe's going to lead the West.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They invented it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And they have an extensive set of institutions to do this.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And they're already starting to marginalize us by putting out feelers to set up trade agreements with Asian countries, with South American countries.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It'll take them a while to do this.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Once they do it, we will be on the outside of it if we don't change our minds.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

and they're going to get stronger institutionally and um uh what is it churchill said something about allies the only thing worse than working with allies is working trying to survive without them that uh you that um you're better off with lots of friends going after bullies in the world than you are by yourselves and we'll find ourselves by ourselves and um

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Other countries have tried to tangle with China all by themselves.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Japan did it when China was an undeveloped country.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It did not work well.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You want to have friends when you do this.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But we're making pivotal errors and we will pay for them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That's fine.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I could be wrong.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, let me ask you a question.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Why isn't it that Argentina, which is a really big country, tremendous resources, why isn't it a great power?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Yeah, but why does its economy suck?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Excuse me.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Not my choice of words.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But that is...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Oh, okay.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Okay, but aren't we talking Peron is a populist leader.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Populists, by definition, aren't people who are institutionalists.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They're like me, I'm so special kind of person.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so aren't you actually telling me that Argentina has inadequate domestic institutions and they failed?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Like if you look at Russia, I mean, lousy institutions, that place should be rich.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I suspect that this crisis now, because it's existential with Putin, that it will force them to clean up these institutions.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It will take them time.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Maybe I'll be dead wrong.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Or maybe I'll be wrong, dead, who knows how that all works.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But I suspect, because usually an existential threat is clarifying.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And you can see Ukraine trying desperately to clean up its institutions.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That's a lot further to go than Europe does.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I suspect that Europeans are going to clean up some of this.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It'll take them time.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It'll take them time.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But they have to because the piggy bank here is no longer willing to fund their defense.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so there's merit in the Europeans need to pick up the tab on their defense.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And they should have done it earlier.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Without a doubt, there's merit to that.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But the way we're doing it,

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Where we're going to cut ourselves out of the action.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You want to put the screws on, but you want to also keep yourself part of it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

We're overdoing it in some fronts.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And also, you're doing it in such an insulting way.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I'll give you some Machiavelli on this one.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So he's the founding father of political science.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And he talked about motivating people with fear, love, and hate.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And he's talking about in The Prince, he's princes.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And he says...

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

He just says, forget about love because you can't make people like you, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

You can do everything.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

People still don't like you.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And he's a big man in saying, make them fear you because you can really motivate people.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But he says, don't make them hate you.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

If they hate you, they will fight you.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, if you're running around serially spitting your allies in the face, they are going to hate you.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it won't work out well.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's just a bad strategy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Don't do it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The clickbait of insulting someone who comes to your house, that's very temporary.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But the hatred of it, and also other people viewing it and going, this is what qualifies as American diplomacy, those memories are long-term.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's unwise.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Sure.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Anonymous.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Brave person.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's allies and alliance systems.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And smaller powers have been tremendously influential in the rules-based order on how it's developed.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

In fact, they've provided some of the really good ideas over the years.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So it's cooperate because if you have allies, this is what the United States doesn't get.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Yeah, we're big.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But if we're going after everybody else, they're bigger.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So if you're small, and this is how Europe is important, there are a lot of small countries or medium countries, but when they get together, they get powerful.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

When they add in Japan, they got an equivalent GNP of us.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then you start adding other people in and they're bigger.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And yes, it takes a long time to negotiate whatever the agreement is going to be, but once you agree, it's powerful.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so that's the answer.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

This is how we have as much of a rules-based order as we do, which allows everyone in the audience to take a little piece of plastic called a credit card, go to any country in the world, pretty much.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I wouldn't go to North Korea, but most countries.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And you use that credit card.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And if it says you have enough money to buy a Mercedes and there's a Mercedes in the shop, the chances are the credit card will go through and you can buy your Mercedes.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it's just a piece of plastic, but this is the rules-based order that most of us are into.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it's because we agree with each other on these things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

This is my guess, because who knows?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But I think China is suffering from the incredible success of its civilization.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It had been the dominant civilization of Asia forever and ever for excellent reasons.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I mean, if you look at

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

the achievements of China, they're amazing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And for Japan, it had always been in China's shadow.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the Japanese had always tried to learn from others.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The Chinese also learned from others.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

A lot of their institutions come from the Manchus, right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But they pretend that we sinify these people.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And so they're actually Han Chinese achievements.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, not so much, actually.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But the myth lives on that anything that's worth knowing emanates from China.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, hubris.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

right?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

This is a human condition.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And the Chinese get a fatal case.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And what I'm wondering about is whether this country has got a fatal case right now of, you know, we know everything, we can do everything.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

We don't work out so well.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Daleks today are allies.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And start by apologizing to them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That would be step one.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I can't see that ever happening.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But yeah, we have all these international organizations use them to

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

We're in the process of firing the State Department.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I believe when WikiLeaks leaked a lot of their memos and things and the New York Times was reporting on it, I believe what it revealed is incredibly accurate reporting of whatever place they were reporting.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

assigned to and describing things in really accurate detail that would enable U.S.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

policymakers then to make an accurate assessment and determine to do what's next.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But that's not what we're doing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, I'm technically wasn't allowed to read them because they were classified and I was working for the Navy.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So I didn't go out of my way to read them, but I'm reading the New York Times and other things that's reporting on them.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And from what's there, you just see it's accurate.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And it's in-depth reporting.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And of course, we're angry that they're all out there because it's revealing who's talking to whom and whatever.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But what it showed is a very professional staff.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And I don't know why we got some ax to grind with the State Department.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's also really tiny.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Working at the War College on student solutions to the world crisis.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

world's problems they would always say quadruple the state department's budget because it's really tiny compared to the military budget because there's an understanding that um what much of the u.s government does if it's doing what it's supposed to is it's preventing catastrophes so if you're sending your state department out there you're trying to prevent oh like uh an indo-pakistani nuclear war and we've sent diplomats at different times to prevent that from happening

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And who knows why it didn't happen?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Maybe it wasn't the State Department, but all over the world trying to prevent these things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Or if you think about the government, it's about setting all these standards to prevent disasters.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Like I've talked to you offline, so this will be repetitive for you.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But like you immunize people to prevent disease.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Can I prove who didn't get what?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

No, I can't.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I can talk about people who got bad reactions to it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But then there's a failure to understand, yeah, there are some bad reactions, but let's look at the much greater number of people who are alive in our own day.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And earlier when President Roosevelt had polio and people were scared to death of getting polio, they understood about the importance of these things and everyone was lining up to get the polio vaccine when Dr. Salk invented it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And there are other things like having enough meteorologists to predict storms and so you can get people out of summer camps when you need to get the people out of summer camps.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And having appropriate – spending the government funds to have the appropriate sirens and things.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And what people aren't looking – they're looking at the expense of doing these things and saying –

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

They're preventing disasters.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And people, it's the negative objectives.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So you can't measure the things that fail to happen.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But I assure you, averting a catastrophe, you're saving a lot, probably a lot more than whatever you're spending on the budget.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And I get it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

The U.S.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

government needs to be much more efficient.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I get it.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But tearing the whole place down is going to be a mistake and we will get more catastrophes.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Oh, Elon?

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Oh, lucky me.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Oh, well, that's a whole other thing.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Oh, okay.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Oh, yes.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Yes, the different varieties of American hubris.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Yes.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, one variant of hubris A is I'm an American, I don't need to consult any other country, and it's just whatever Washington does or doesn't do.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

That determines how the world works.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's half-court tennis, it ignores what the other team is doing, and it doesn't work out well.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And then there's the Silicon Valley or whatever it is.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's a different variant.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

It's what I call type two hubris.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

I'm incredibly talented in one area, which he is,

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

incredibly talented or whatever.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

He's made himself a household word.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Not everyone can do that.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But you're thinking, because I'm good at one thing, this is transferable to everything else.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Well, okay, I got news.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

There's all kinds of expertise and it's important.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

But if I take a really good hairdresser and make them an auto mechanic or the auto mechanic a hairdresser, it is not going to work out well.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

So you have to line these things up correctly.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And this type two hubris is thinking, oh, I'm smart at one thing and therefore I can do everything.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

And these people are making decisions in areas where they have no expertise and it will not work out well.

Dwarkesh Podcast
Sarah Paine: How Imperial Japan Defeated Tsarist Russia & Qing China

Yes.