Sam Irby
Appearances
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And I'm like, girl, I have- Are you going to give me a book deal? Are you going to give me a book deal? I just signed a three book deal, girl. I need these thoughts to be magnified.
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No. Wait until you read. I just finished writing one and it's snarkier than ever. I have a whole chapter snarking about therapy and why I'm saying therapy. I'm paying all this money to argue with the woman. I mean, we don't argue, but in my head, I'm like, I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that. I'm not thinking positively about that.
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So it's like a huge waste of time and I should probably find a different kind of therapy. But one of the things we're working on is boundaries and knowing when to say no. So as soon as she gets me to the point where I learn how to say no, I'm going to tell her no. Okay.
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Yes. Okay. So one thing I like to do with her is come up with strategies and I've come up with two life-changing earth shattering strategies. I'm going to give them to you. I haven't Written about them, no one knows. Okay, my first one is a strategy I call, I like it. So I have found, and I'm sure you guys know too, when you say, you could say anything.
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Oh man, that episode of 9-1-1, I love that show. That episode of 9-1-1 was really great. There's always going to be somebody who's like, you watch that? And it's like- You know, yes. And like people expect you to apologize for what you like. It's like strangers are like expecting you to justify your taste. And I have found that if you just say, I like it. it completely kneecaps them, right?
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It's so weird. Once I started doing it, I noticed all the ways I had to get something from a strip mall. And this lady was like, oh, that's where you go? I don't have any allegiance to the strip mall, but I don't like this lady making me feel like an asshole. So I was like, I like it. And then she was like, uh, and I was like, yeah, I like it. That strip mall is great. can't say anything.
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They're just like, ugh. So that's strategy one. Strategy two, this one is a little harder and it's more recent. But when people act like in a way that shows you that they don't like you, telling them that you don't think they like you is it changes everything. It gets you out of things. So I had this interaction with this person I've known for a long time.
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And this is the thing about like sort of being funny. My humor is always projected internally, right? Like I don't pick on people. I don't make fun of people. I don't care what anybody does. I am the villain of all my stories. So I pick on myself. I think sometimes- You punch in. I do. I punch in. I'm like a T-Rex, my tiny arms, punching in.
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Just picture me with my little arms, my little rock-em-sock-em robot arms punching myself. And sometimes that gives people, they take license and like sort of punch me too. And it's like, well, this is a single person game. Like you can laugh at it, but I don't want you to. you know, rag on me all the time.
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So there's this woman who every interaction, she was just like low key putting me down, but also being like, ha ha, we're friends. Right. And she asked me to hang out. This was a while ago. She asked me to hang out. And I was like, Oh no, thanks. It was like, why? And I was like, cause I don't think you like me. And she was like, And I was like, yeah. I just don't think you like me.
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And she was like, I'm surprised to hear that. And she didn't say, I do like you. She said, I'm surprised to hear that. And I was like, I bet you are. I was like, I bet you are surprised to hear that. Because you just thought I would keep taking it and keep letting you piss in my face and tell me it's raining. And... I just don't think you like me.
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And the way we ended it, she was just like, oh, okay. And I was like, okay, bye. Wow. It's worth all the money just for those two strategies alone. Yes. Because my therapist is very like, I mean, you guys know when you make things for people and you feel a duty to your audience, I want to be open to people. I want to engage with people. I want them to keep engaging with, i.e.
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buying the things that I'm trying to sell them. engaging with but at some point you just have to be like okay okay, I got to set a boundary here. I got to say no to this. I got to do whatever. It has been very helpful in at least in like changing the dynamic of people who talk to me.
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I mean, I'm sure that there's a deep dive that I'm missing here about like maybe the way I talk about myself should change. I'm not ready to conquer that. No, we're not there yet. We're not. You're not letting anybody else punch in. And I love that. That step one is just to find ways to like deflect. So that has been helpful, but having the rest of therapy, I don't know. We're going to keep going.
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I'm trying to picture her face if I say I don't want to be fixed all the way, and just imagining that is going to make me keep going. Because I don't want to see it when she's like, don't worry.
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Cute that you thought that. Cute that you thought you were improving in any way. But you need to keep seeing me. Don't worry.
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Thank you for having me on your incredible show. I am very intimidated. I'm going to do my best to sound like cool and relaxed, but...
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Yeah. So Shrill is based on Lindy West's memoir of the same name. And Lindy and I are very close friends. TV writing is so weird. It was my first TV job and we're in the room and we wanted to take the character from this place of being kind of meek and putting up with a bad dude and putting up with a job that sucked to this point where she was like, bold, not all the way bold.
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You know, we wanted to do more than one season. So a little bit more bold and bold. sticking up for herself. And so we were brainstorming ideas for like a big, pivotal experience she could have that would change her. Now, everybody knows like in real life, it takes years and years and years and years of like
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looking at tumblers of fat bodies, looking at... It's not just an overnight kind of thing, but Hulu wasn't going to give us 700 episodes for the first season, so we had to figure out a transformative experience she could have. And so Lindy and I were talking about All of the different things we had been to that sort of changed our ideas about fatness.
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And I talked about there used to be this dance party for fat girls in Chicago that would meet like once a month. And I would go to that. Clothing swaps. like lots of different like websites and stuff, but there's no way to show that on TV. And Lindy had gone to one of, I think Essie Golden started this party called the Chunky Dunk.
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It may not have been, Essie Golden had a pool party and there were other pool parties and Lindy had gone to a bunch of them. And it was like, let's do that. We have to do that. We want to see that. Showing women who look like us
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that they are beautiful and making this thing so we we landed on a pool party um and we figured out what was going to be in the other episodes and then when it got to the time of like assigning the showrunner assigned me the pool party episode and i you know was like okay all right you know like i was like excited.
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And so I, when I was writing it, I was just like, I want to see almost like a real life Candyland, like just beautiful, bright. I didn't want it to be at the dingy hotel pool in like a rundown Sheridan or whatever, no shades in Sheridan or some like sleazy hotel. I really wanted it just to be like almost like a dream. Because we deserve that, right? So I wrote it. I turned it in.
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The writer's room ended. Then I came back home to Michigan and they all went to Portland to shoot. And so Lindy was like, you got to come out for your episode. And I was a little nervous because what you imagine is rarely what the real thing turns out to be. I also did not understand like television budgets and that kind of thing. So I was like, I don't know what it's going to look like.
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I just hope I hope it's good. You know, I flew out to Portland. And my biggest concern, though, other than how it looked, was I was like, oh, it's just going to be like Hollywood fat people. It's going to be a bunch of like size eights and tens and not size 32s and 40s. You know what I mean? When you aren't in charge of anything, like I'm a very let go and let God kind of person.
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But also I knew what it could mean if we could do it the right way, if we could do it our way. So we drive out to this country club and they were like, Sam, go look at the pool. So I went and looked at the pool and like, I almost burst into tears. It was, the set was so beautiful. It was just like all these beautiful floaties and like the stands they set up, like everything looked so gorgeous.
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And I was like, okay. Okay. And then Lindy was like, let's go talk to the extras. And they had everybody inside like the ballroom of this like beautiful country club. And we go in and I walked around the corner and I just saw all of these gorgeous women of all sizes walking all abilities. Like there was a woman in a wheelchair and there are women on crutches and there are like non-binary people.
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And it just was like so beautiful. Everyone's in bathing suits, which was so great. The costume people were designing things on site for people just so they, no one was in a utilitarian place.
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you know like basic bathing suit like everyone's in gorgeous caftans and beautiful bright colors they had hair and makeup for everybody and it was just like and there were so many people and i was like oh this is astonishing Like, I didn't have words.
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I thought what was going to happen was what happens always, is they were going to, like, throw, you know, three size 10s in a pool and be like, there's your party. But it was really gorgeous and beautiful. Everyone was like so cared for and it was really beautiful. And the entire time I was just sitting in the video village, just like watching the monitors. I can't believe they let us do this.
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Like that was really my overall feeling was like, it felt like we were getting away with something. I cannot believe. believe they let us do this and then they let us be in it i don't know if you saw my yes oh yeah brief by the pool and i was like okay if i never work on another episode of tv again it'll be fine like we really did something special and then it came out and it just looked
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So gorgeous. It's so beautiful. And everyone did such a great job. It is like one of my crowning achievements was getting to work.
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So Lindy was executive producer, but you know, there's like many ranks. So I think Lindy was step one in being like, this has got to be good. It's got to be right. And then Hulu, whoever the executives were at Hulu, whoever like green lights the money. So, you know, TV crew people, they're, like, hardcore. They're dressed in black. They have lots of carabiners and hats. They're very serious.
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And in Portland, they, like, look like Portland, like, messenger bike pros. And so I was walking back to the car after the second day of shooting. This guy comes up. He is just, like, covered in tattoos, like, real gruff looking. And he's like, are you Sam Irby? And I was like, uh-oh. Yes. And he was like, I just wanted to tell you what an honor it is to have worked on this episode.
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And I was like... Okay, that's great. This person who, I mean, I don't know his relationship to fat women, but like he, I wouldn't guess that he was like a guy who would be in touch with us and our issues and he appreciated it. That was like the very beginning of like, oh, okay, we're doing this. Yeah, it was apparent.
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If you think about it too long, it's like a shame that this was the first event of its kind and that it was so meaningful. Like the hope is that we can make so many more shows and episodes like this that it's not an anomaly and we don't need to celebrate it. But it was...
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very cool um just in that moment to have him acknowledge it and then since it's been out to have people be like that meant so much to me it's very cool
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Yeah, I can. For me, it's like, are you funny and can you take a joke, right? That's like the primary thing. It's like, can we have a laugh? Because all I'm trying to do is be laughing all the time. Like-
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you know i'm not a clown but i like let's let's clown around let's have fun so if you can be fun and if you think i'm funny oh let's go back and say if you think i'm funny you're halfway through the door right i'm like i'm like oh you're delighted by something i've said come on in murderer you know what i mean
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Yes. We are soulmates. Oh, you think I'm funny? Let me give you my pin. You know what I mean? I have the kind of personality that just... I don't know, I can just get along with a lot of people. I think I have been fortunate enough that I haven't ever tried to befriend someone who was so different from me, like politically, that it's been a problem.
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Like I don't have any friends who hate gay people or trans people. I don't have any friends who are like hardcore conservatives. I have a lot of like friends that I think you'd be like, hmm.
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what do y'all bond over and then I'll be like well I watch wrestling and then like it explains that friendship right you're like oh you have a very narrow like way of of connecting with this person and sometimes for me that's all it takes is we can have a shared interest in one thing and we don't have to get into other things you know that is so good
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Yeah. And this is fun. Me too. I think, so I'm not going to guess, Glennon, why you have your rules, but I am going to, so this is kind of a guess. I'm going to say that I don't need to have, and this is not shade, an intimate like soul relationship with everybody. Right?
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Like, I don't need to get to the depths of people if we're just like having a laugh or like we can talk about, you know, this one thing. Sometimes those narrow friendships like branch out and grow, but I don't go into things being like, okay, I'm going to meet this person and I'm going to hang out with them and then I want to know everything about them.
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Instant. I try to lead with honesty, even when it's... I don't even I remember I remember it exactly I was in the work in progress writers room and someone mentioned you too and like to be cool I was like oh you mean my friends and they were like and then I had to text you and be like um please could you act like we're best friends So that I can impress these people who think I'm a huge liar.
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Some people you don't, you know, you don't want to know. You don't want them to know everything about you. So I think because I don't look at everyone as like a potential like soul friend because I'm just like, well, this is just my buddy who I do this with. Then it's easier to like let some of that other stuff fall away. I feel like you want to have deep friendships with everyone. Yeah.
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It's really something. I respect that because the quality of your friendships is probably really great because you like vet people.
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Well, so that's the thing is, well, and I think it feels like rude to call someone an acquaintance, but that's essentially the difference, right? It's like, we're friends because I know you inside and out, you know me inside and out. Our acquaintances who were just like, oh, Bob, yeah, he's a good time. We don't need to know Bob's soul.
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And like, but it feels rude to call Bob an acquaintance because that just is like a rude word. So we need like a capital S friend and a lowercase S friend.
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I do not want any depth whatsoever. I told you that's where the lava is. We can only dip... toe in there before like things get dangerous so i try to stay near the top of the volcano where it's like smoky and sexy and fun but i only get into the lava with a few people because and i'll tell you that makes perfect sense i'm not gonna put it on them
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I'm going to say that I have that fear of when people really get down and see what's in there, that they're going to be like, oh, bye. And that's one of the hazards, I think, of being a funny person, not just in life, but in my career, is that sometimes people don't think that lower level exists. And then they are surprised when they get up.
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glimpse of it and i'm like all i do is write about depression how do you think that manifests itself for real so i think like having lowercase f friends um it like feels good to the ego it's good to know people it's good to have people around but also i'm not in danger of finding out any of their dark shit and they're not in danger of finding out any of mine
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Yeah. Like entertaining them. I do. It never bothers me until I have a problem and I talk about it to someone who wants funny Sam. And they're like, oh, just laugh it off. And I'm like, no, no, this is the part where you find out that I got to go to bed for three days about it. Sometimes it takes like a little distance. I can always laugh at things, maybe not in the moment.
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Or the next day, eventually I'll get there. There have been people who can't deal with the, in the moment, like I'm not over this yet. And then you know, that's never going to be your capital F friend. Always going to be a lowercase. Never call that person when you have a problem. Never expect more from them than the surface that you're getting.
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And I think sometimes like people divide themselves into those categories for themselves. My friend, John, who I met like on the internet forever ago, this was like 10 years ago, maybe I had posted that I was in the hospital and we were just internet friends then. And he came back.
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and visited and was the only person who visited and i was like oh you want to be here during this stuff okay we are real friends but i never put that pressure on anyone because i know not everybody wants that i like to let i like to do a little sorting of my own and then let people do sort themselves into their capital f or lowercase f you know i love that
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Thank you. You got it right. Oh, my God. Now she's going to be your lady since you got her name right. Yeah. She's going to be like, Glennon said what? Bye. I knew it was coming.
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She slid into your DMs. She tweeted me. This was like back when I was still like looking at people saying things to me on Twitter who I didn't know. Now I'm not even on Twitter anymore. But she tweeted that she loved the book, and then we got into one of those, like, tweet conversations. And I'm not a private person, but I do not like to conduct a public conversation.
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Like, if we're going to talk... She kept responding, and I was like, bitch, get into my inbox. I mean, both of them. But get into my inbox. So...
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then we started dming and then i was like it reached a level that i was like is this this isn't casual anymore but with women at least with this woman it was never like oh i i want to fuck it was just like i'm talking to you all the time and i was like okay i'm okay girl you know Okay. And then, so we just, we graduated to talking a lot.
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And then at a certain point, I was like, listen, this is getting romantic. Are we, is this romantic? And she was like, yeah. And I was like, okay, great. And then we, then we started sort of talking more.
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That's showing the lava. Yeah. Well, we had been talking for so long that I was like, I don't know. And it's hard to know when people like want you or want the book you or, you know. And so like we had talked past the point where I thought, oh, she's just like a fan. This is something else.
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And but it was also so much talking that I was like, I cannot be talking to a person who doesn't want to buy me dinner. I need an ROI on all this talking. I'm like, my thumb is getting fractured from texting this person. What are we doing? So then that I am not brave. But in that moment, I was brave and was like, yes, what are we doing?
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uh too soon so yeah we we just started talking and then i lived in chicago she lived in michigan and she came and we went to brunch and i i brought a friend because i was like what if this person i know you did not you did not sam i know it was so bad it was so she roasts me to this day ah
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But my friend left and then we went to coffee after the brunch and I was like, okay, this is... Did you know...
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It was slow because she, so she was coming out of a marriage and she had two kids who were like five and seven at the time. So I certainly wasn't rushing to get into that. You're like, call me when they're 18. I still am like, call me when they're 18. Okay. One is 16 and I'm like, two more years and get your ass out of here. No, he's actually like really lovely. But I still am like, TikTok kids.
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Our real life is going to start as soon as you guys leave. So it was, it forced us to be slow. Like I didn't meet the kids for a year. We really took our time and we lived in different places. So it was good that we really took our time and... I also was really cognizant of, you got to do your relationship grieving. You got to do all.
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I needed her to do all of her stuff and make sure that she was on board. And it was good. We took a long time. And then I was like, oh, your health insurance is better than mine? I'm moving to Michigan. Are you done? Are you done with your grieving? Blue Cross? Yeah. Get the U-Haul.
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I don't. I consider myself an adjacent adult who can pay for things and drive to things. My step-kids are...
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I'm funny. Take that to mean what you will, but no, no. Let's say I'm very funny. Got it. Yeah. Isn't that like the best question though? It's a really good question. And it's totally, I know it's a trope, but it's totally true. Whenever you meet anyone you think is funny, you just want to get to the point where you're like, okay, what's your damage? Like, where did this come from?
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great they're really great they're funny um and they're like charming like they're all the stuff you want they've always been like good kids the problem i mean i shouldn't even say it's a problem it's me i am not parental i am not unconditional i'm very like oh you didn't wash that plate after all the money i spent you know what i mean like the worst
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The worst things that you... You know how when you're a kid, you're like, man, when I'm older and I'm around kids, I'm going to be so cool. I'm not. I have to stop myself from being like, do you know how much that chair that you're standing up on costs? And I don't say it, but I feel in my soul that I want to say it. So... It's so refreshing that you're telling the truth about this. Thank you.
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You know, I don't know how parents do it. There was a reason I didn't have kids because like I knew that I would just be the worst version. Like I'd buy the kid everything and do all this stuff and I'm sure I would teach it to read. But I also would be like, I'm taking that iPad if you don't do exactly what I say right now. So I don't think of myself as a step parent because I don't,
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I don't like tell them what to do. Yeah, I don't parent. I don't tell them what to do. I don't say you should study this. Like we hang out, we watch movies. I'm like their cool aunt who has sex with their mom.
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Abby, you are a person who, I mean, I know you love to be in the mix. You love to go to stuff. You love to be there. You love to talk to people. I'm in awe of a person like you, but not, I would never want to be that or you. Yes.
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Let's just take a moment with that sentence. It's true. It's true. We live in this time of like racing to get your take out. And I am always considering the source. And the source is rarely a person who is smart or thoughtful or, you know what I mean? Every time I see an infographic, I'm like, who said that? Where'd they go to school? What's their qualification? Shut the fuck up.
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I just don't, I am not interested in anything like regular people think they know about big things. You ate at a breakfast place that was terrible? Tell me about that. I don't want to hear their take on global politics or whatever. Let's leave that to the experts. It's so freeing. If you can prove to me that you read a book on the subject that you are pontificating on, then maybe I'll listen.
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I probably won't, but maybe. I'm just this thing where, like, because someone said it loud, we gotta listen is bonkers to me. I don't know anything. I can tell you I had a Starbucks this morning that was delicious. You can believe that. I went to high school in like 40 years ago. I'm 42. However many years ago, I graduated at 17.
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I'm not even smart enough to do the math to tell you how long ago I went. Your class in 98. Yes. Don't listen to anything I say. I wouldn't attempt to say anything smart about anything. I can only tell you about my little ant of an experience in terms of like this giant world.
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Do our damages match? Or can I learn something new about another way you can be fucked up? You know, it's like, I have my way. What's your way? How did you get here? And usually it's some like terrible trauma, but because you're talking to a funny person, they make it funny. And you're like, oh, what happened? Who died? Who got hit by a what? And then you're like cracking up.
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So smart. No, that is it. Just listen, shut up and listen. Oh, that's our next right thing. The less sophisticated way of saying that. Shut the fuck up and listen.
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Thank you for having me. What a joy. I'm glad I didn't miss out on this.
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And then later it's like, oh man, I'm really glad that I got to know that person, but also am I an asshole for laughing at all the stuff they told me? In a funny way. People say that to me. They'll be like, you know, when you talk about your childhood, it makes me really sad, but also I really laugh. Is that okay? And I'm like, yeah, please. I want you to. I laugh.
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Well, I think, so I grew up super poor, but in a like weird sort of poverty where I was surrounded by a lot of people who had money and parents. And when you're a kid, you don't really have any idea of who has what. You just know like what you don't have. For me, I had to find a way to sort of
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I was going to say rationalize, but that's not the way to like see what I lacked and not feel bad about it. Right. So it's like, I don't have all of this stuff. My mom was really sick and then she went into a nursing home and then. I bounced around in foster homes and stuff. And it's like, this has to be funny or it'll kill me. I think that's my philosophy to this day.
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It's like, even in the most bleak of circumstances, I have to find the joke in order to keep going. Because I am not a traditionally hopeful person. Right. I'm like, oh, I guess I can make it. And so the laughter sort of keeps the I guess I can make it going.
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Yeah. I can laugh at this thing. So both my parents died when I was 18, not together, which would have been cheaper, more emotionally economical for me. Yeah. At my mom's funeral, so like, I was like 18. I mean, you barely have a brain at 18, right? I couldn't deal with grief, but I also couldn't deal with people like looking at me because, you know, everyone's always looking at you.
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You're the star of the movie. And so we were at her funeral and it was like really sad. My sisters and I are sitting in the front row and the minister who was performing the service didn't know my mom very well, but he knew my sister because it was at her, the church she went to. And my sister's name is Carmen. And he kept referring to my mom as Carmen.
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And when I tell you I was screaming laughing, like by the end, by like the fourth time, I was like falling over in the pew laughing and my sisters were laughing and I was just like, okay, this is how we get through this, right? Like it's terrible and we're going to have to like sort through her stuff and figure out how much debt she was in and all that stuff. But to get through that moment,
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I was like, shouldn't you climb in there? Like pointing to the casket. She was just like, I'm going to beat your ass after this funeral. You have to find the one absurd thing and just like cling to that till you get through to a good place.
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For me, I feel like it's the most active way to interact with reality. reality. Although I would say, okay, sometimes with humor, I use it to protect myself. And I think like that developed early, right? Because I was like, I've always been a little fat kid with buck teeth, right? And nobody is charitable to you with that. And so my defense mechanism was always like, let's beat them to the joke.
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Where I grew up, I grew up in Evanston, which is just north of Chicago. It's where Northwestern is. I don't know if it still exists, but when I was growing up, there was this community donation place called ESCA. And all of the fancy people would... like donate their clothes there. And those of us who were not fancy would get clothes from there.
Up First from NPR
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And cause I was like a sad kid, I would always be like wearing someone's like dad's golf shirt to school. Right. Yeah. One day this girl was like, I think that's my dad's shirt. And I could have, you know, like in the movie version, I would like, you know, melt into a puddle and there would be some sort of lesson. But I was like, he has great taste and the pits still smell like him.
Up First from NPR
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And she was disarmed and I didn't feel bad for being poor. We just like had that moment. And so it has served to protect me in that way. But I think as an adult, what you said about engaging with reality in a more real way, I think when you were always looking for the absurd truth, you can't ignore any part of what's happening, right? It's like...
Up First from NPR
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okay, this sucks, but I'm going to dig through all the suck to see what's funny about it. I think it makes like going through life less scary, you know, like, and I'm like a super anxious person. If I look in the rear view mirror and a car is coming too close, I feel like it's chasing me.
Up First from NPR
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I mean, like anxious for real, but my way of dealing with that is just to really receive all of it and then pick out the part that'll make me laugh. We'll see how successful that continues to be as the world crumbles. But so far, so far it's worse.
Up First from NPR
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Oh, yes. You know, like underneath that, it's like, I hate my mom for being poor. I hate my body for not fitting into cute things. Like, no, under the surface, I don't know that anyone would think I was like a flighty, frivolous person. But under the surface of the funny is like, you know, molten lava of rage, right.
Up First from NPR
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And disappointment and hurt and all of these things that like I was born into are not my fault. Like that's always there. But if I engage with that all the time, I couldn't get out of bed. Right. Like I would just be like, Oh God, Why was I put on earth to suffer? So I'll make the jokes, but it's like fueled by the rage lava within.
Up First from NPR
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Yeah. What's happening with the lava? Well, sometimes the lava gets worked out in my work. Like that's the beauty of writing about myself is that I can sit in front of a computer and sort through it. I just, well, I shouldn't say just for the past year, I've been going to therapy and Which is interesting. Well, you could tell me. Therapy is interesting in general.
Up First from NPR
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So I chose a cognitive behavioral therapist and I don't like therapy. Let's just say that. My therapist, the things she tells me are sort of the antithesis of what I do, right? So I fuel myself off my negative thoughts like, My jokes come from there. My writing comes from there. My therapist is always like, let's reframe those negative thoughts.