Saikat Chakrabarti

My theory for why America and Europe ended up differently is Europe actually did their post-war boom and all that development in a more democratic way than we did. We had this Robert Moses era, where we didn't get a lot of public buy-in. We did demolish a bunch of communities, and then we got the backlash, and now we can't build for 50 years.

My theory for why America and Europe ended up differently is Europe actually did their post-war boom and all that development in a more democratic way than we did. We had this Robert Moses era, where we didn't get a lot of public buy-in. We did demolish a bunch of communities, and then we got the backlash, and now we can't build for 50 years.

Whereas Europe, I think, took more of an approach of trying to bring society in through this development. But I think the larger theory of why everywhere is stagnating I think countries have to go through these periods of renewal where they really go for it. And all the European democracies did this in peacetime post-war, right, when they're doing their booms.

Whereas Europe, I think, took more of an approach of trying to bring society in through this development. But I think the larger theory of why everywhere is stagnating I think countries have to go through these periods of renewal where they really go for it. And all the European democracies did this in peacetime post-war, right, when they're doing their booms.

And it's in these contexts of a larger society-wide transformation that you're able to do things like change the housing rules. Because housing is a big deal. But if you just do a whole politics around housing, that's not a big enough constituency to call for the huge kind of structural reforms you need across society. You know, in France, for example,

And it's in these contexts of a larger society-wide transformation that you're able to do things like change the housing rules. Because housing is a big deal. But if you just do a whole politics around housing, that's not a big enough constituency to call for the huge kind of structural reforms you need across society. You know, in France, for example,

They built TGV, their national high-speed rail, during their post-war boom. And I know you talk a lot about California high-speed rail, but if you look at how they did that versus how we did California high-speed rail, it was this comprehensive plan where they pitched the country on the whole network. And so because it was this huge network, they planned for all the surrounding industry.

They built TGV, their national high-speed rail, during their post-war boom. And I know you talk a lot about California high-speed rail, but if you look at how they did that versus how we did California high-speed rail, it was this comprehensive plan where they pitched the country on the whole network. And so because it was this huge network, they planned for all the surrounding industry.

They built out universities to train the engineers. They built out rolling car set industries to build the train sets. They built out all the steel industries. And they even planned, this is when they're deploying nuclear power all over France, they planned their nuclear power deployment in a way to make sure they would have the power to power the trains.

They built out universities to train the engineers. They built out rolling car set industries to build the train sets. They built out all the steel industries. And they even planned, this is when they're deploying nuclear power all over France, they planned their nuclear power deployment in a way to make sure they would have the power to power the trains.

And I'd say that whole thing was even made possible because France was in the middle of a larger national renewal where they were building out their whole economy. And Charles de Gaulle even talked about it as a mission for France, actually. But on the flip side, we got California High Speed Rail, where they had this project, which was one line.

And I'd say that whole thing was even made possible because France was in the middle of a larger national renewal where they were building out their whole economy. And Charles de Gaulle even talked about it as a mission for France, actually. But on the flip side, we got California High Speed Rail, where they had this project, which was one line.

And I just think it wasn't big enough to use the political capital of that project to push through the CEQA reforms or whatever other reforms we would need. to make that go faster. Well, they also didn't try.

And I just think it wasn't big enough to use the political capital of that project to push through the CEQA reforms or whatever other reforms we would need. to make that go faster. Well, they also didn't try.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I think we've lost that muscle. I think we've totally lost that muscle of how do you actually do the kind of comprehensive planning, the execution of these big projects and the transforming your whole economy. And so I I don't think they thought they weren't trying. They were just doing the normal thing politicians do. Zephyr, there's an example you had wanted to bring up.

Well, I think we've lost that muscle. I think we've totally lost that muscle of how do you actually do the kind of comprehensive planning, the execution of these big projects and the transforming your whole economy. And so I I don't think they thought they weren't trying. They were just doing the normal thing politicians do. Zephyr, there's an example you had wanted to bring up.

Well, first of all, I mean, I do agree that, you know, money in politics is this hugely enervating force, right? But even if we got rid of money in politics and all the other forces that kind of get in the way, I don't think our politicians on their own would do things at the scale. You know, even looking at Texas versus California, yeah, people are billing in Texas because...

Well, first of all, I mean, I do agree that, you know, money in politics is this hugely enervating force, right? But even if we got rid of money in politics and all the other forces that kind of get in the way, I don't think our politicians on their own would do things at the scale. You know, even looking at Texas versus California, yeah, people are billing in Texas because...

In a completely, you know, nothing else going on sort of scenario, there's fewer rules in Texas, it's cheaper to build in Texas, so you build in Texas. But that's not going to build out enough clean energy to make any sort of dent, actually, you know, in the global problem of tackling climate change. I think the money in politics and all that just supports the general focus

In a completely, you know, nothing else going on sort of scenario, there's fewer rules in Texas, it's cheaper to build in Texas, so you build in Texas. But that's not going to build out enough clean energy to make any sort of dent, actually, you know, in the global problem of tackling climate change. I think the money in politics and all that just supports the general focus

feeling that our politicians have and this trend that they've had of trying to do less and less. I think one of the really bad parts of money in politics is that politicians spend all their time calling big donors for money, and they think that's their job. And they're really confused by the job of actually trying to build stuff, you know, or make things happen. Like, there was an interview with

feeling that our politicians have and this trend that they've had of trying to do less and less. I think one of the really bad parts of money in politics is that politicians spend all their time calling big donors for money, and they think that's their job. And they're really confused by the job of actually trying to build stuff, you know, or make things happen. Like, there was an interview with

Hassan Khan, who I worked on the CHIPS Act on Oddbots yesterday, and he was talking about the stuff that actually got in the way of the CHIPS Act, right? And a big part of it was trying to negotiate with all the different special interests and groups that had stuff to say. And he said, that's fine. That's an important part of the process. And again, you know, Europe does this as well.

Hassan Khan, who I worked on the CHIPS Act on Oddbots yesterday, and he was talking about the stuff that actually got in the way of the CHIPS Act, right? And a big part of it was trying to negotiate with all the different special interests and groups that had stuff to say. And he said, that's fine. That's an important part of the process. And again, you know, Europe does this as well.

But there's no real... And they've lost semiconductor manufacturing. Yeah, that's fair. But, you know, but there's no real focus from the up top. There's no political leadership that was saying, we got to get this fab built, right? I was saying that's actually an overwhelming priority here.

But there's no real... And they've lost semiconductor manufacturing. Yeah, that's fair. But, you know, but there's no real focus from the up top. There's no political leadership that was saying, we got to get this fab built, right? I was saying that's actually an overwhelming priority here.

And what happens when you create a political moment that's bigger than any of these forces, you can actually blow past it. And we're kind of seeing that with Trump and tariffs right now. Dark abundance. Yeah, dark abundance. Because, you know... I'm sure all the businesses are calling up Trump right now and being like, what the hell are you doing with these tariffs?

And what happens when you create a political moment that's bigger than any of these forces, you can actually blow past it. And we're kind of seeing that with Trump and tariffs right now. Dark abundance. Yeah, dark abundance. Because, you know... I'm sure all the businesses are calling up Trump right now and being like, what the hell are you doing with these tariffs?

And they're calling all their congresspeople and senators. But Trump's created such a political moment and reality within the Republican Party where you've just got to go along with the tariffs. The Republican congresspeople can say, sorry, this is just too popular in the party. My hands are tied. I've got to go with the president.

And they're calling all their congresspeople and senators. But Trump's created such a political moment and reality within the Republican Party where you've just got to go along with the tariffs. The Republican congresspeople can say, sorry, this is just too popular in the party. My hands are tied. I've got to go with the president.

Yeah, I think it's not just about not pissing people off. I think it's a complete abdication of responsibility of leading. I think it's a lack of realizing that we need new ideas and we need an actual vision for how to do stuff. Because it's not just, you know, groups on the left.

Yeah, I think it's not just about not pissing people off. I think it's a complete abdication of responsibility of leading. I think it's a lack of realizing that we need new ideas and we need an actual vision for how to do stuff. Because it's not just, you know, groups on the left.

Like, I went to a training when I was in Congress that was a training on how to get ideas from corporate lobbyists, right? I tweeted about it and I pissed off some people. But it's really hard to push new ideas.

Like, I went to a training when I was in Congress that was a training on how to get ideas from corporate lobbyists, right? I tweeted about it and I pissed off some people. But it's really hard to push new ideas.

It was very matter-of-fact.

It was very matter-of-fact.

They do come to you. But in the training, it was like, you know, if you're writing a bill, here are the people you can contact to get expertise, right? Similar to what you encounter in the Dean campaign. And, you know, I think it's just this complete abdication responsibility of your role to actually put out solutions that'll solve real problems.

They do come to you. But in the training, it was like, you know, if you're writing a bill, here are the people you can contact to get expertise, right? Similar to what you encounter in the Dean campaign. And, you know, I think it's just this complete abdication responsibility of your role to actually put out solutions that'll solve real problems.

Like the culture is more, we'll figure out ideas from everybody that's around us and kind of cobble it together into this Frankenstein monster. We got in trouble with the Green New Deal. Like when we put the Green New Deal out, The week before we announced it, I think it was like 70 environmental groups wrote a letter saying they're going to denounce it because we were pushing something new.

Like the culture is more, we'll figure out ideas from everybody that's around us and kind of cobble it together into this Frankenstein monster. We got in trouble with the Green New Deal. Like when we put the Green New Deal out, The week before we announced it, I think it was like 70 environmental groups wrote a letter saying they're going to denounce it because we were pushing something new.

Because at that time, the environmental groups were really focused on just keep it in the ground stuff.

Because at that time, the environmental groups were really focused on just keep it in the ground stuff.

They would probably say it was substantive. I don't think I'm going to say it wasn't, but it was more the latter, right? Like it was more that we weren't operating in the idea space that everyone else was operating in. But I'd say, you know, in general, like the pipeline example you brought up is a really interesting one, right?

They would probably say it was substantive. I don't think I'm going to say it wasn't, but it was more the latter, right? Like it was more that we weren't operating in the idea space that everyone else was operating in. But I'd say, you know, in general, like the pipeline example you brought up is a really interesting one, right?

Because I think when you abdicate responsibility from actually pushing for new ideas and solutions, what you're saying is the interest groups, which I think often, as you're pointing out, Zephyr, are the big corporate interests, they're going to fight it out. So in the case of the pipelines you're talking about, I'm sure there's interest groups on both sides.

Because I think when you abdicate responsibility from actually pushing for new ideas and solutions, what you're saying is the interest groups, which I think often, as you're pointing out, Zephyr, are the big corporate interests, they're going to fight it out. So in the case of the pipelines you're talking about, I'm sure there's interest groups on both sides.

So 20 years later, we'll come to some resolution. But in the case of natural gas pipelines, we streamlined all that, right? We put permitting under FERC. We made it happen super fast. We have 3 million miles of natural gas pipelines in this country right now. We built it super fast because there wasn't really a big enough opposing interest group.

So 20 years later, we'll come to some resolution. But in the case of natural gas pipelines, we streamlined all that, right? We put permitting under FERC. We made it happen super fast. We have 3 million miles of natural gas pipelines in this country right now. We built it super fast because there wasn't really a big enough opposing interest group.

And so that's sort of what I see happening in the Democratic Party is there's a real resistance to putting out actual solutions and putting out real ways to solve these problems and just deciding that we're going to take ideas from everyone. And I agree with Zephyr that that tends to be the corporate powers that have more influence there.

And so that's sort of what I see happening in the Democratic Party is there's a real resistance to putting out actual solutions and putting out real ways to solve these problems and just deciding that we're going to take ideas from everyone. And I agree with Zephyr that that tends to be the corporate powers that have more influence there.

So, Kat? Well, I actually agree with a lot of the goal of abundance. And I think everyone here agrees that America is really stuck. And the specific reasons why we're stuck, I think, might be where there's some disagreement or this broader than a thing than just process.

So, Kat? Well, I actually agree with a lot of the goal of abundance. And I think everyone here agrees that America is really stuck. And the specific reasons why we're stuck, I think, might be where there's some disagreement or this broader than a thing than just process.

It's a major problem. It's a major problem. And that's why, you know, as you get into lower levels of government, lobbyist capture is even higher. Like in California state governments, worse than it is in Congress because they have even less funding. What people actually want is not what Doge is doing. They want effective government.

It's a major problem. It's a major problem. And that's why, you know, as you get into lower levels of government, lobbyist capture is even higher. Like in California state governments, worse than it is in Congress because they have even less funding. What people actually want is not what Doge is doing. They want effective government.

And effective government happens if you have either a very well-paid civil service, as they do in Singapore or Finland or any of these countries that have effective government. But in America, the tough part of that is you're competing against Google salaries and all these high-paid salaries.

And effective government happens if you have either a very well-paid civil service, as they do in Singapore or Finland or any of these countries that have effective government. But in America, the tough part of that is you're competing against Google salaries and all these high-paid salaries.

And so I think one way you do that is, hey, you do need to increase the salaries, you need to fund this stuff, but you also have to make it exciting. I think it's very radicalized. It's very underreported. It's because they're going in there and they're making a real sacrifice.

And so I think one way you do that is, hey, you do need to increase the salaries, you need to fund this stuff, but you also have to make it exciting. I think it's very radicalized. It's very underreported. It's because they're going in there and they're making a real sacrifice.

But the thing I really want to add to the discussion and the question we've been studying at New Consensus has been, how do countries get unstuck? Because if you look at the history of the 20th century,

But the thing I really want to add to the discussion and the question we've been studying at New Consensus has been, how do countries get unstuck? Because if you look at the history of the 20th century,

All these people could be making, you know, half a million dollars in a lobbyist firm, but instead they're taking a huge pay cut to do something good. One of the things I learned when I was in Congress was if you're a former member of Congress, you can be on the House floor. So what do lobbyists do? They hire former members of Congress so they can whip votes on the House floor.

All these people could be making, you know, half a million dollars in a lobbyist firm, but instead they're taking a huge pay cut to do something good. One of the things I learned when I was in Congress was if you're a former member of Congress, you can be on the House floor. So what do lobbyists do? They hire former members of Congress so they can whip votes on the House floor.

They're not supposed to. It's technically against the rules, but, you know, come on. How do you think about this question of state capacity?

They're not supposed to. It's technically against the rules, but, you know, come on. How do you think about this question of state capacity?

Every modern developed nation, most of them liberal democracies, they went through these phases of rapidly transforming their economies and creating absurd levels of prosperity for pretty much everyone in their society. And, you know, they often did it after these periods of being really stuck.

Every modern developed nation, most of them liberal democracies, they went through these phases of rapidly transforming their economies and creating absurd levels of prosperity for pretty much everyone in their society. And, you know, they often did it after these periods of being really stuck.

Yeah, and that's a really important point because if we actually embark on these big missions and make it exciting enough to be in government, we don't want to just be anti-people who know how to do stuff. Like when we did the World War II mobilization, The guy who ran a big part of it was this guy, Bill Knudson, who was actually the CEO of GM.

Yeah, and that's a really important point because if we actually embark on these big missions and make it exciting enough to be in government, we don't want to just be anti-people who know how to do stuff. Like when we did the World War II mobilization, The guy who ran a big part of it was this guy, Bill Knudson, who was actually the CEO of GM.

But he had come up as an engineer, you know, through the factory floor. He understood how that whole economy worked. And that was why we were able to organize all the other CEOs and the entire economy to do war production. You know, FDR almost hired like a banker who did the World War I mobilization, which wasn't as good. And that guy said, no, you got to get someone who actually knows this stuff.

But he had come up as an engineer, you know, through the factory floor. He understood how that whole economy worked. And that was why we were able to organize all the other CEOs and the entire economy to do war production. You know, FDR almost hired like a banker who did the World War I mobilization, which wasn't as good. And that guy said, no, you got to get someone who actually knows this stuff.

America and the mobilization for World War II, we did after years of stagnation and the Great Depression. And what we've sort of seen is countries seem to do it by pitching the sort of sweeping transformation of the whole economy and executing at breakneck speed, they flip into this whole other mode of operating that I think is really different than how we operate today in America.

America and the mobilization for World War II, we did after years of stagnation and the Great Depression. And what we've sort of seen is countries seem to do it by pitching the sort of sweeping transformation of the whole economy and executing at breakneck speed, they flip into this whole other mode of operating that I think is really different than how we operate today in America.

And we need to have people like that now. And unfortunately, Elon Musk is now going and just destroying government, but we need a Bill Knudsen today.

And we need to have people like that now. And unfortunately, Elon Musk is now going and just destroying government, but we need a Bill Knudsen today.

And we've been calling it mission mode at New Consensus, but it's different three really distinct ways. Countries in mission mode They have this whole other kind of leadership that pops up that doesn't just pitch a mission. They actually follow through and execute. They organize society actively to be a part of it. And really importantly, they capture the national attention.

And we've been calling it mission mode at New Consensus, but it's different three really distinct ways. Countries in mission mode They have this whole other kind of leadership that pops up that doesn't just pitch a mission. They actually follow through and execute. They organize society actively to be a part of it. And really importantly, they capture the national attention.

You know, they really make a show of the progress. They call it the heroes and they use that as political capital to blow through obstacles, whether that's corporate monopolies or process. And the second part is they make comprehensive plans. They don't just pass a bunch of policies and take their hands off the steering wheel.

You know, they really make a show of the progress. They call it the heroes and they use that as political capital to blow through obstacles, whether that's corporate monopolies or process. And the second part is they make comprehensive plans. They don't just pass a bunch of policies and take their hands off the steering wheel.

The thing that we've sort of lost is a little bigger than just public financing. It's sort of public institutions that proactively go out and make stuff happen. We have a little bit of this now. We have it with DARPA, you know, on sort of research and development projects. And that's kind of public financing as well of those kinds of projects.

The thing that we've sort of lost is a little bigger than just public financing. It's sort of public institutions that proactively go out and make stuff happen. We have a little bit of this now. We have it with DARPA, you know, on sort of research and development projects. And that's kind of public financing as well of those kinds of projects.

They actually plan for all the things that will need to happen to make things happen. And, you know, third piece is they create financing and executing institutions. And so America used to have a bunch of these all across our society. You know, during World War II, the largest that we've ever had was one called the Reconstruction Finance Corporation.

They actually plan for all the things that will need to happen to make things happen. And, you know, third piece is they create financing and executing institutions. And so America used to have a bunch of these all across our society. You know, during World War II, the largest that we've ever had was one called the Reconstruction Finance Corporation.

But we've lost it for the entire sector of creating industries and creating infrastructure projects. And there was a loan program at the DOE that the IRA funded for clean energy projects that Jigar Shah ran. It's a great program, but it's a wait and see approach. So people apply for loans for projects they want to do. But there's all kinds of projects that just aren't happening.

But we've lost it for the entire sector of creating industries and creating infrastructure projects. And there was a loan program at the DOE that the IRA funded for clean energy projects that Jigar Shah ran. It's a great program, but it's a wait and see approach. So people apply for loans for projects they want to do. But there's all kinds of projects that just aren't happening.

Like right now, a big bottleneck to expanding electric grids is a transformer shortage because we only have a few companies that make transformers. And we only have one company that makes electric steel that we need for transformers. And no one's popping up to make new electric steel companies.

Like right now, a big bottleneck to expanding electric grids is a transformer shortage because we only have a few companies that make transformers. And we only have one company that makes electric steel that we need for transformers. And no one's popping up to make new electric steel companies.

So what I'm imagining is something like the RFC today, Reconstruction Finance Corporation would push them to expand production. If they don't do it, fund startups. And if they don't do it, put up state-owned corporations, right? And this is what China does. This is exactly what China does. China got these ideas from us. You know, this was what we used to do.

So what I'm imagining is something like the RFC today, Reconstruction Finance Corporation would push them to expand production. If they don't do it, fund startups. And if they don't do it, put up state-owned corporations, right? And this is what China does. This is exactly what China does. China got these ideas from us. You know, this was what we used to do.

And, you know, other countries in Europe have versions of this. And it's key to note that it's not just, you know, it's not just like this one institution. If we put it in, it's going to fix everything. You know, Germany has all kinds of financing mechanisms. They have agricultural co-op banks. They have...

And, you know, other countries in Europe have versions of this. And it's key to note that it's not just, you know, it's not just like this one institution. If we put it in, it's going to fix everything. You know, Germany has all kinds of financing mechanisms. They have agricultural co-op banks. They have...

have this whole range of financing for small and medium manufacturing in the country, and that's held up a lot of their economy. And in China, similar. They have these big industrial banks that fund all kinds of projects. But it's really just this proactive nature of finding projects that are getting in the way of progress and then making sure those things get built.

have this whole range of financing for small and medium manufacturing in the country, and that's held up a lot of their economy. And in China, similar. They have these big industrial banks that fund all kinds of projects. But it's really just this proactive nature of finding projects that are getting in the way of progress and then making sure those things get built.

I think that is the big part of the story. The major part of the story is after the New Deal, and there's a great book called Invisible Hands by Kim Phillips Fine, which really details the push of that ideology over 40 years, a long-term plan.

I think that is the big part of the story. The major part of the story is after the New Deal, and there's a great book called Invisible Hands by Kim Phillips Fine, which really details the push of that ideology over 40 years, a long-term plan.

And the RFC wasn't just a public investment bank. It was like a project manager. It would go out and find problems and find bottlenecks and push and actively make sure stuff got done, things got built, do whatever is necessary to just push things along. And we've really tried to find examples of societies that managed to do this kind of broad-based work. prosperity through iterative slow reforms.

And the RFC wasn't just a public investment bank. It was like a project manager. It would go out and find problems and find bottlenecks and push and actively make sure stuff got done, things got built, do whatever is necessary to just push things along. And we've really tried to find examples of societies that managed to do this kind of broad-based work. prosperity through iterative slow reforms.

And I think that's why even when presidents came in wanting to do a little bit more Obama, I forget which book, but there's some book where Obama actually said after recession, shouldn't we do our moonshot project now? But he was surrounded by people who was like, no, no, no, obviously we shouldn't be doing that. You know, when they're talking about

And I think that's why even when presidents came in wanting to do a little bit more Obama, I forget which book, but there's some book where Obama actually said after recession, shouldn't we do our moonshot project now? But he was surrounded by people who was like, no, no, no, obviously we shouldn't be doing that. You know, when they're talking about

I think that was part of the problem. You know, in the context of a larger economy, you can't just say one little high-speed rail line, right? And they also funded Solyndra and Tesla, as you point out in the book, right? But they only wanted to do those two projects, and they just focused on the failure of Solyndra rather than the huge success of Tesla.

I think that was part of the problem. You know, in the context of a larger economy, you can't just say one little high-speed rail line, right? And they also funded Solyndra and Tesla, as you point out in the book, right? But they only wanted to do those two projects, and they just focused on the failure of Solyndra rather than the huge success of Tesla.

Well, that guarantee program funded more than just those two, right? Yeah, but those are the big ones.

Well, that guarantee program funded more than just those two, right? Yeah, but those are the big ones.

And it's really hard to find a single society that did it. You know, it's there's something about the scale and speed of a sweeping transformation that creates this momentum that gives you this escape velocity where these countries finally get the gumption to tackle all these obstacles that are standing in the way of progress.

And it's really hard to find a single society that did it. You know, it's there's something about the scale and speed of a sweeping transformation that creates this momentum that gives you this escape velocity where these countries finally get the gumption to tackle all these obstacles that are standing in the way of progress.

And so that's the big piece that's missing for how do you actually get past all these obstacles that we're talking about.

And so that's the big piece that's missing for how do you actually get past all these obstacles that we're talking about.

I think it's actually important to remember that for most of the cases in the 20th century, it wasn't under a war or some kind of emergence like that. You know, there was usually some political party that came into power, you know, in Western Europe or in South Korea that really just pitched the mission of let's get rich. You know, let's make society rich.

I think it's actually important to remember that for most of the cases in the 20th century, it wasn't under a war or some kind of emergence like that. You know, there was usually some political party that came into power, you know, in Western Europe or in South Korea that really just pitched the mission of let's get rich. You know, let's make society rich.

Yeah, sorry, Zephyr, you want to jump in?

Yeah, sorry, Zephyr, you want to jump in?

Finland did this after the fall of the Berlin Wall in like the 80s and 90s. And that was pretty recent. So it's possible for a politics to come in and say the mission is... Our society has been kind of declining. We're stuck. People's wages have been stagnating. And we actually need to fix that. And I actually think the politics is already almost there.

Finland did this after the fall of the Berlin Wall in like the 80s and 90s. And that was pretty recent. So it's possible for a politics to come in and say the mission is... Our society has been kind of declining. We're stuck. People's wages have been stagnating. And we actually need to fix that. And I actually think the politics is already almost there.

I think that's what people thought they're voting for with Obama and with Trump and to an extent with Biden. Biden really campaigned on a bit of a mission. And it was in a crisis. And it was in a crisis. Which increased people's ambitions by quite a bit. Yeah.

I think that's what people thought they're voting for with Obama and with Trump and to an extent with Biden. Biden really campaigned on a bit of a mission. And it was in a crisis. And it was in a crisis. Which increased people's ambitions by quite a bit. Yeah.

And I think I think there's just been this general sense that whatever the current political order is, is not delivering the promise that people have had, you know, that America made of people in the postwar era. So we're looking for something new that's going to start delivering that again.

And I think I think there's just been this general sense that whatever the current political order is, is not delivering the promise that people have had, you know, that America made of people in the postwar era. So we're looking for something new that's going to start delivering that again.

So I think the real challenge actually is for a political leader to come in and really pitch the whole thing. Operation Warp Speed happened during a crisis, but it wasn't big enough. It was like one small mission. We have done a lot of little small missions. We just need Operation Warp Speed for everything.

So I think the real challenge actually is for a political leader to come in and really pitch the whole thing. Operation Warp Speed happened during a crisis, but it wasn't big enough. It was like one small mission. We have done a lot of little small missions. We just need Operation Warp Speed for everything.

And it's through that mission that I think you figure out what the new rules and institutions should be. It wasn't like... We threw out all the rules during World War II. There was tons of paperwork, you know, and the companies complained constantly about all the paperwork they had to do.

And it's through that mission that I think you figure out what the new rules and institutions should be. It wasn't like... We threw out all the rules during World War II. There was tons of paperwork, you know, and the companies complained constantly about all the paperwork they had to do.

But we had the War Production Board and, you know, Don Nelson would be going around trying to figure out what paperwork is actually creating a bottleneck and what paperwork is necessary, right? And that's something we need to be able to do at the agency level.

But we had the War Production Board and, you know, Don Nelson would be going around trying to figure out what paperwork is actually creating a bottleneck and what paperwork is necessary, right? And that's something we need to be able to do at the agency level.

I'll say Destructive Creation by Mark Wilson is probably the most detailed book I read about the actual mobilization during World War II. I've read the book. When you read what they did, it is shocking. It's amazing. It's really amazing.

I'll say Destructive Creation by Mark Wilson is probably the most detailed book I read about the actual mobilization during World War II. I've read the book. When you read what they did, it is shocking. It's amazing. It's really amazing.

Second book I'd say is Bad Samaritans by Ha-Joon Chang, which tells a story of how a bunch of developed countries managed to go into mission mode and develop their countries. And the third I'd say is probably The Defining Moment by Jonathan Alter. It's about FDR's first hundred days and really paints a picture of his style of leadership and how he was able to do so much without legislation.

Second book I'd say is Bad Samaritans by Ha-Joon Chang, which tells a story of how a bunch of developed countries managed to go into mission mode and develop their countries. And the third I'd say is probably The Defining Moment by Jonathan Alter. It's about FDR's first hundred days and really paints a picture of his style of leadership and how he was able to do so much without legislation.

Well, yeah, you know, we have a huge housing shortage in California. I think the process that we use to build housing is crazy. Everyone knows it's not going to build enough housing. We'd have this process in San Francisco where you approve on a parcel-by-parcel method to decide which housing gets built. So that process is a big part of the problem.

Well, yeah, you know, we have a huge housing shortage in California. I think the process that we use to build housing is crazy. Everyone knows it's not going to build enough housing. We'd have this process in San Francisco where you approve on a parcel-by-parcel method to decide which housing gets built. So that process is a big part of the problem.

But I don't actually think it's just going to be a process that'll fix it because what we see is often financing is a problem. Mm-hmm. Like last year, a bunch of construction projects in San Francisco got stalled because interest rates went up. So construction loans got very expensive. And our current approach to that is throwing our hands up and saying, well, I guess that's too bad.

But I don't actually think it's just going to be a process that'll fix it because what we see is often financing is a problem. Mm-hmm. Like last year, a bunch of construction projects in San Francisco got stalled because interest rates went up. So construction loans got very expensive. And our current approach to that is throwing our hands up and saying, well, I guess that's too bad.

But it's why it's really key that we have public financing institutions to try to make sure this stuff moves along and keeps happening. We can't have just this one solution. There's going to be so many bottlenecks that come in the way. Even if we fix the financing, there might be something else that pops up, right?

But it's why it's really key that we have public financing institutions to try to make sure this stuff moves along and keeps happening. We can't have just this one solution. There's going to be so many bottlenecks that come in the way. Even if we fix the financing, there might be something else that pops up, right?

So it's this whole other mindset we really need to get into to try to figure out how to make sure the houses get built. Zephyr, what's your take on this?

So it's this whole other mindset we really need to get into to try to figure out how to make sure the houses get built. Zephyr, what's your take on this?

First off, you know, just in the San Francisco versus Texas example that we're talking about, I just want to make like one sort of point there. Because Austin, which is a city that people refer to a lot where they did a lot of streamlined permitting. Construction went up, rents went down, really good. But it wasn't actually enough. The 50% of Austin's population is still cost burdened by rent.

First off, you know, just in the San Francisco versus Texas example that we're talking about, I just want to make like one sort of point there. Because Austin, which is a city that people refer to a lot where they did a lot of streamlined permitting. Construction went up, rents went down, really good. But it wasn't actually enough. The 50% of Austin's population is still cost burdened by rent.

And now construction slowed down because part of the reason costs went down was a lot of people left Austin at that time. It started having net migration out of Austin. And so now what happens, right? I think there's another example of just doing the permitting streamlining isn't going to be a silver bullet. But when you're talking about costs, there's not one simple answer.

And now construction slowed down because part of the reason costs went down was a lot of people left Austin at that time. It started having net migration out of Austin. And so now what happens, right? I think there's another example of just doing the permitting streamlining isn't going to be a silver bullet. But when you're talking about costs, there's not one simple answer.

I think the optimism here that I have is you look at Europe, you know, Europe can build stuff way faster and way cheaper than us. They have a way more unionized labor force. And I think what I wish we had in America was, I wish we had large, you know, union bargaining deals in a sectoral way, the way many European countries do, and do this at a society way.

I think the optimism here that I have is you look at Europe, you know, Europe can build stuff way faster and way cheaper than us. They have a way more unionized labor force. And I think what I wish we had in America was, I wish we had large, you know, union bargaining deals in a sectoral way, the way many European countries do, and do this at a society way.

I wish we didn't have to jam all these requirements into legislation because we had actual societal solutions for it. But I think it's possible, you know, and the other thing Europe does is on a lot of these process questions, they empower their agencies to have more power to actually make decisions, right?

I wish we didn't have to jam all these requirements into legislation because we had actual societal solutions for it. But I think it's possible, you know, and the other thing Europe does is on a lot of these process questions, they empower their agencies to have more power to actually make decisions, right?

And sometimes we over-index on how much the process is getting in the way because what you see in a lot of cases is We add process, but stuff still gets built. You know, China, in the 1980s, when it was going through massive amounts of development, bringing in American companies, made those companies jump through all kinds of hoops.

And sometimes we over-index on how much the process is getting in the way because what you see in a lot of cases is We add process, but stuff still gets built. You know, China, in the 1980s, when it was going through massive amounts of development, bringing in American companies, made those companies jump through all kinds of hoops.

You know, they had to train up Chinese workers, they had to do joint ventures with Chinese companies. But it's this overall mindset, we actually have to get this stuff done, that was different there. I think that's the bigger thing that's missing. It's, you know, even in Europe, they have timelines on how long these environmental reviews can take. And in America...

You know, they had to train up Chinese workers, they had to do joint ventures with Chinese companies. But it's this overall mindset, we actually have to get this stuff done, that was different there. I think that's the bigger thing that's missing. It's, you know, even in Europe, they have timelines on how long these environmental reviews can take. And in America...

The bigger thing that's happened is we've let open-ended lawsuits and this general kind of culture of letting things languish forever take over.

The bigger thing that's happened is we've let open-ended lawsuits and this general kind of culture of letting things languish forever take over.