Romy

Yeah. And they don't do either. The thing that you're describing is the thing that made me kind of nervous walking into a high school with somewhat aloof high school kids. I understand.

Yeah. And they don't do either. The thing that you're describing is the thing that made me kind of nervous walking into a high school with somewhat aloof high school kids. I understand.

And I'm feeling that way as we talk to the owner of this cafe, learning once again that adults love this yogurt, the pots are cute, they're reusable. But as the hour winds by, I can slowly feel Romi and Anouk warming to the assignment a little bit. Or maybe it's just because we're starting to get to the point where they might get to miss their next class and that's like exciting for them.

And I'm feeling that way as we talk to the owner of this cafe, learning once again that adults love this yogurt, the pots are cute, they're reusable. But as the hour winds by, I can slowly feel Romi and Anouk warming to the assignment a little bit. Or maybe it's just because we're starting to get to the point where they might get to miss their next class and that's like exciting for them.

You guys owe me for letting you miss math class.

You guys owe me for letting you miss math class.

Ooh, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Ooh, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

So we're making small talk about class. David, the teacher, has to duck out to go teach his next class. And so for the first time, Shruti and I get a moment alone with these students. Which means I finally get to ask them what they really think about this investigation we're on.

So we're making small talk about class. David, the teacher, has to duck out to go teach his next class. And so for the first time, Shruti and I get a moment alone with these students. Which means I finally get to ask them what they really think about this investigation we're on.

Yeah, I mean, that's pretty much it.

Yeah, I mean, that's pretty much it.

Chapter three, the student's point of view. So you have this conversation. We sit down in the school library and I just asked them to tell me about that first class when their teacher David pitched this yogurt question to them. Can you just briefly in a few sentences describe sort of what that class looked like on that day?

Chapter three, the student's point of view. So you have this conversation. We sit down in the school library and I just asked them to tell me about that first class when their teacher David pitched this yogurt question to them. Can you just briefly in a few sentences describe sort of what that class looked like on that day?

I feel like everyone was kind of annoyed at the end of this class because they were like, why do we have to spend so much time, like so much of our free time, homework and everything on a yogurt question that nobody cares about?

I feel like everyone was kind of annoyed at the end of this class because they were like, why do we have to spend so much time, like so much of our free time, homework and everything on a yogurt question that nobody cares about?

They're like, look, I get it, this is school, but if we're going to be taking a two-year research class, why can't we spend our time researching stuff we actually care about?

They're like, look, I get it, this is school, but if we're going to be taking a two-year research class, why can't we spend our time researching stuff we actually care about?

We have been told that, oh, you have to do a project about something you're passionate about, but we have been presented with things we're not passionate about.

We have been told that, oh, you have to do a project about something you're passionate about, but we have been presented with things we're not passionate about.

So what do they want to know about? Not yogurt pots. What do you wish you were spending your time on instead of thinking about yogurt?

So what do they want to know about? Not yogurt pots. What do you wish you were spending your time on instead of thinking about yogurt?

Hearing her talk about this, I was like, of course, this yogurt question sounds stupid to you. Of course, this feels like a waste of your time.

Hearing her talk about this, I was like, of course, this yogurt question sounds stupid to you. Of course, this feels like a waste of your time.

That was the feeling I was having in this library is like, oh, these students are coming alive for the first time because they're talking about stuff that they're excited about and it's not yogurt. What do you wish you were thinking about in your yogurt thinking time?

That was the feeling I was having in this library is like, oh, these students are coming alive for the first time because they're talking about stuff that they're excited about and it's not yogurt. What do you wish you were thinking about in your yogurt thinking time?

To be completely honest, I wish I was spending this time to figure out what I want to spend it about. I'm really bad at just finding specific questions or specific things that I'm interested about, so I have some general themes. So I love design, I love architecture, art, but I just haven't been able to come up with a specific question.

To be completely honest, I wish I was spending this time to figure out what I want to spend it about. I'm really bad at just finding specific questions or specific things that I'm interested about, so I have some general themes. So I love design, I love architecture, art, but I just haven't been able to come up with a specific question.

Anouk doesn't know what she wants her final project to be, but in what I'm learning is like kind of classic Anouk fashion. She was like, I'd rather just be using this time to figure out what I actually am interested in. And so like, again, a clay pot of yogurt, not something that was immediately attention grabbing for her. Right.

Anouk doesn't know what she wants her final project to be, but in what I'm learning is like kind of classic Anouk fashion. She was like, I'd rather just be using this time to figure out what I actually am interested in. And so like, again, a clay pot of yogurt, not something that was immediately attention grabbing for her. Right.

Well, it's funny because this is something that, like, occasionally comes up for us on our show. Some weeks we spend our time thinking about small and unserious questions. Like, we might be trying to track down a Russian rapper, and meanwhile the economy is crashing and the president's trying to, like, dismantle the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau or something.

Well, it's funny because this is something that, like, occasionally comes up for us on our show. Some weeks we spend our time thinking about small and unserious questions. Like, we might be trying to track down a Russian rapper, and meanwhile the economy is crashing and the president's trying to, like, dismantle the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau or something.

It's like, wait, how sad are the monkeys in the zoo again? And that was coming to mind as I was hearing them talk about their... serious research interests bumping up against this silly yogurt question. But this is in some ways the entire point of David's class. He's trying to teach them the disciplined form of curiosity.

It's like, wait, how sad are the monkeys in the zoo again? And that was coming to mind as I was hearing them talk about their... serious research interests bumping up against this silly yogurt question. But this is in some ways the entire point of David's class. He's trying to teach them the disciplined form of curiosity.

Yeah, he's trying to say maybe it's a more valuable skill or at least it's the skill that this class is trying to teach you that you should be able to chase down answers to questions that you don't care about.

Yeah, he's trying to say maybe it's a more valuable skill or at least it's the skill that this class is trying to teach you that you should be able to chase down answers to questions that you don't care about.

I've kind of been like a connoisseur de monde build where I'm like, let's just see if this is possible.

I've kind of been like a connoisseur de monde build where I'm like, let's just see if this is possible.

Okay. Shall we? Mm-hmm. Where do you want to start the story? So I'm going to start the story almost two years ago, actually, October 2023. I don't know if you remember this, but you get a tweet from a guy named David. And what was David saying? I'm just going to get you to read that tweet. I'm going to put it in your Slack. All right.

Okay. Shall we? Mm-hmm. Where do you want to start the story? So I'm going to start the story almost two years ago, actually, October 2023. I don't know if you remember this, but you get a tweet from a guy named David. And what was David saying? I'm just going to get you to read that tweet. I'm going to put it in your Slack. All right.

Welcome back to the show. Chapter four, looking for treasure. So PJ, a couple of months have passed since my first visit to the French school and we're about to hop on a call to start our investigation for real.

Welcome back to the show. Chapter four, looking for treasure. So PJ, a couple of months have passed since my first visit to the French school and we're about to hop on a call to start our investigation for real.

No, The thing that I think is propelling me and motivating me at this point is the fact that I'm getting to investigate this alongside two high schoolers who seem bored by it. The fun part for me is not, can I answer this question? Can you make them care about it? Can I get these students interested in this question? Okay. So I get on a Zoom with Romy and Anouk.

No, The thing that I think is propelling me and motivating me at this point is the fact that I'm getting to investigate this alongside two high schoolers who seem bored by it. The fun part for me is not, can I answer this question? Can you make them care about it? Can I get these students interested in this question? Okay. So I get on a Zoom with Romy and Anouk.

Can you both tell me what you had for breakfast this morning so I can check your levels? Yes.

Can you both tell me what you had for breakfast this morning so I can check your levels? Yes.

I had cereal for breakfast. I had a child's breakfast. I had carrot cake and chocolate cake for breakfast.

I had cereal for breakfast. I had a child's breakfast. I had carrot cake and chocolate cake for breakfast.

You had two types of cake for breakfast? That's inspirational, I have to admit. It's funny, everybody we ever interview, we ask what they had for breakfast. And then with an adult, we usually follow that up by saying, can you say your name and what you do for a living?

You had two types of cake for breakfast? That's inspirational, I have to admit. It's funny, everybody we ever interview, we ask what they had for breakfast. And then with an adult, we usually follow that up by saying, can you say your name and what you do for a living?

But for high school students who don't yet do anything for a living, I had a different introductory question that I thought might tell me something about them. So when you guys were both younger, I'm curious, what did you want to be when you grew up? Like the earliest answer you can remember for yourself for that question. What did you guys want to be?

But for high school students who don't yet do anything for a living, I had a different introductory question that I thought might tell me something about them. So when you guys were both younger, I'm curious, what did you want to be when you grew up? Like the earliest answer you can remember for yourself for that question. What did you guys want to be?

I think I wanted to be an archaeologist. I was really obsessed with history and I was a super curious kid and I really wanted, like I loved treasure hunts, stuff like that. For example, I love thrifting and I think it's the same feeling in a way. It's like you're trying to find this

I think I wanted to be an archaeologist. I was really obsessed with history and I was a super curious kid and I really wanted, like I loved treasure hunts, stuff like that. For example, I love thrifting and I think it's the same feeling in a way. It's like you're trying to find this

treasure that feeling that anuk's teacher is trying to inspire in her like curiosity about the small things she says it's a feeling she often has just rarely about school so i don't really like school because it just takes away like free time from me like i would much rather just spend my entire days like drawing and playing music stuff like that so i usually find school pretty boring

treasure that feeling that anuk's teacher is trying to inspire in her like curiosity about the small things she says it's a feeling she often has just rarely about school so i don't really like school because it just takes away like free time from me like i would much rather just spend my entire days like drawing and playing music stuff like that so i usually find school pretty boring

And that's a little bit how these two students were feeling in their class about curiosity with that exceptionally eager teacher, David Freeman. Like, some of the early assignments to them just felt pretty dull.

And that's a little bit how these two students were feeling in their class about curiosity with that exceptionally eager teacher, David Freeman. Like, some of the early assignments to them just felt pretty dull.

Yeah, and it was still not really clear what the whole thing was about. And everybody's still a little bit confused.

Yeah, and it was still not really clear what the whole thing was about. And everybody's still a little bit confused.

And then came that day that Mr. Freeman showed up with his pot of yogurt. And you know what happens from there.

And then came that day that Mr. Freeman showed up with his pot of yogurt. And you know what happens from there.

I mean, I feel like... When we came in, we were like, oh, come on, like not another stupid project. And this time it's about yogurt too, like the most stupid one in our opinion, like just about a pot of yogurt.

I mean, I feel like... When we came in, we were like, oh, come on, like not another stupid project. And this time it's about yogurt too, like the most stupid one in our opinion, like just about a pot of yogurt.

David told his class that he had two spots available to be a part of the project and Romy and Anouk decided to go for it.

David told his class that he had two spots available to be a part of the project and Romy and Anouk decided to go for it.

Just had to send him an email with all our arguments to how we would make the best students for the assignment. But I feel like I just have this thing of like fear of missing out. Also, I had seen that Maya Hawke was on the podcast. I think Anouk and I are the only people who applied. We're not the best.

Just had to send him an email with all our arguments to how we would make the best students for the assignment. But I feel like I just have this thing of like fear of missing out. Also, I had seen that Maya Hawke was on the podcast. I think Anouk and I are the only people who applied. We're not the best.

I mean, I think that's what it was. So that all brings us to today on this Zoom call, talking about how we want to tackle this yogurt question. Yeah. And we decided to start someplace easy, La Fermiere's website. Chapter 5, Red Flags. The website, it's very artfully designed, very sleek-looking photos of their yogurt. And we just navigate over to the FAQ page. Okay. Should I just read it?

I mean, I think that's what it was. So that all brings us to today on this Zoom call, talking about how we want to tackle this yogurt question. Yeah. And we decided to start someplace easy, La Fermiere's website. Chapter 5, Red Flags. The website, it's very artfully designed, very sleek-looking photos of their yogurt. And we just navigate over to the FAQ page. Okay. Should I just read it?

Yeah, go for it. Where, helpfully, maybe a little anticlimactically, one of the questions there is our question.

Yeah, go for it. Where, helpfully, maybe a little anticlimactically, one of the questions there is our question.

And the company's answer?

And the company's answer?

Already from the first sentence on, they're trying to use the packaging as a way to say that their yogurts are great because they're calling it an all-natural packaging for all-natural yogurt. And those are very broad words. Like, what does all natural really mean?

Already from the first sentence on, they're trying to use the packaging as a way to say that their yogurts are great because they're calling it an all-natural packaging for all-natural yogurt. And those are very broad words. Like, what does all natural really mean?

So finding the American website lacking in detail, we head over to the French website to see if it had any other information we could use.

So finding the American website lacking in detail, we head over to the French website to see if it had any other information we could use.

And you've been taking French classes. I have been taking French classes. The translation is roughly... These packages remain among the most ecological because they are inert, meaning they do not deteriorate the materials they come into contact with in a way that could cause damage to the environment.

And you've been taking French classes. I have been taking French classes. The translation is roughly... These packages remain among the most ecological because they are inert, meaning they do not deteriorate the materials they come into contact with in a way that could cause damage to the environment.

Unlike plastic, for example, which when decomposed produces byproducts that are potentially dangerous for the environment and health. And so when the students read the company's appeal to sustainability on this website, it was like they were just naturally wired to think that this company was trying to pull a fast one on them.

Unlike plastic, for example, which when decomposed produces byproducts that are potentially dangerous for the environment and health. And so when the students read the company's appeal to sustainability on this website, it was like they were just naturally wired to think that this company was trying to pull a fast one on them.

This is the first time that I start to see the flicker of real curiosity in their eyes. It's like, this company is lying to us.

This is the first time that I start to see the flicker of real curiosity in their eyes. It's like, this company is lying to us.

Well, it's funny. I wasn't quite sure if it was their generation or if it was their, like, Frenchness, but they are naturally far more skeptical of corporations than I think I was, at least in high school. Yeah. But Romy told me this story that helped me understand where this generation is coming from, like, really how the media they've experienced has shaped their worldview.

Well, it's funny. I wasn't quite sure if it was their generation or if it was their, like, Frenchness, but they are naturally far more skeptical of corporations than I think I was, at least in high school. Yeah. But Romy told me this story that helped me understand where this generation is coming from, like, really how the media they've experienced has shaped their worldview.

To me, it was interesting. I've heard parents talk about how much screen time their teenagers were getting during the pandemic, but I'd never actually heard anybody wonder about, like, what specific rabbit holes they were going down while looking at their screens. Yeah. And for Romy and Anouk, it seemed to be this kind of anti-consumerist rabbit hole.

To me, it was interesting. I've heard parents talk about how much screen time their teenagers were getting during the pandemic, but I'd never actually heard anybody wonder about, like, what specific rabbit holes they were going down while looking at their screens. Yeah. And for Romy and Anouk, it seemed to be this kind of anti-consumerist rabbit hole.

I know that when a brand says that they're doing something fully for their customers and fully for the environment, it's usually hiding something and it's usually they're doing it for their own profit because that's just how everything works. And we wouldn't be facing climate change and we wouldn't be having those issues if... every company's first motive was to make Earth and the people happy.

I know that when a brand says that they're doing something fully for their customers and fully for the environment, it's usually hiding something and it's usually they're doing it for their own profit because that's just how everything works. And we wouldn't be facing climate change and we wouldn't be having those issues if... every company's first motive was to make Earth and the people happy.

I know that in our world, most things are for profit and have to be for profit.

I know that in our world, most things are for profit and have to be for profit.

Yeah, I was thinking, I feel like Maybe ceramics is better for the environment. If you discard it in nature, it's not going to last as long, whatever, than plastic. But it's also a lot heavier. So when for transportation, that means you can't transport as much of it. It's like more sensitive.

Yeah, I was thinking, I feel like Maybe ceramics is better for the environment. If you discard it in nature, it's not going to last as long, whatever, than plastic. But it's also a lot heavier. So when for transportation, that means you can't transport as much of it. It's like more sensitive.

Yeah, so that was the question we received on Twitter. Small question about a specific yogurt brand and why it came in a clay pot rather than a plastic one. Okay. Check, check, check. And it turned out the school that this question was coming from was just a few subway stops away from our office, so Shruti and I figured we would investigate their investigation.

Yeah, so that was the question we received on Twitter. Small question about a specific yogurt brand and why it came in a clay pot rather than a plastic one. Okay. Check, check, check. And it turned out the school that this question was coming from was just a few subway stops away from our office, so Shruti and I figured we would investigate their investigation.

So the students, what they seem to think was going on here was that the company knows sustainability is important to high-end consumers. So if a product looks sustainable and can be marketed as sustainable, who cares if the thing is actually sustainable? Like what's important is what the consumer thinks because what the consumer thinks will determine how much they can sell it for.

So the students, what they seem to think was going on here was that the company knows sustainability is important to high-end consumers. So if a product looks sustainable and can be marketed as sustainable, who cares if the thing is actually sustainable? Like what's important is what the consumer thinks because what the consumer thinks will determine how much they can sell it for.

Well, to be clear, there's no evidence, at least online at this point, that anything actually fishy was going on. This was just some teenage theorizing at this point. But we decided to reach out to the company to see if anyone there was down to talk to us about their clay pots. Like a bunch of French kids think you're lying. I didn't go. That was not my email to the company.

Well, to be clear, there's no evidence, at least online at this point, that anything actually fishy was going on. This was just some teenage theorizing at this point. But we decided to reach out to the company to see if anyone there was down to talk to us about their clay pots. Like a bunch of French kids think you're lying. I didn't go. That was not my email to the company.

And to be clear, we were going in skeptical, but also with an open mind. Chapter six, the yogurt executive. Can you hear yourself when you talk?

And to be clear, we were going in skeptical, but also with an open mind. Chapter six, the yogurt executive. Can you hear yourself when you talk?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I meet up with the students and their teacher David at Search Engine HQ. It's all very exciting. An executive at La Fermiere has very generously agreed to talk to us.

So I meet up with the students and their teacher David at Search Engine HQ. It's all very exciting. An executive at La Fermiere has very generously agreed to talk to us.

Okay, so hi.

Okay, so hi.

So as the head of sales and marketing in the U.S., Charlotte would be the first one to admit, like, she's not a sustainability expert, but she does know the company and its products very well.

So as the head of sales and marketing in the U.S., Charlotte would be the first one to admit, like, she's not a sustainability expert, but she does know the company and its products very well.

So basically, La Fermiere yogurt for many decades had come in wax-coated paper pots. And then in the 90s, Charlotte tells us that the company decided to switch to the terracotta pot, both because they wanted to stand out to their customers, but also because they were thinking about the environment.

So basically, La Fermiere yogurt for many decades had come in wax-coated paper pots. And then in the 90s, Charlotte tells us that the company decided to switch to the terracotta pot, both because they wanted to stand out to their customers, but also because they were thinking about the environment.

And as soon as Charlotte is starting to, like, sing the praises of this terracotta pot for all of its ecological virtues, I can see the students kind of, like, squirming in their chairs. It's just making them more suspicious. They sort of get this wry smile on their face, you know, because Charlotte is more or less repeating what we found on the website.

And as soon as Charlotte is starting to, like, sing the praises of this terracotta pot for all of its ecological virtues, I can see the students kind of, like, squirming in their chairs. It's just making them more suspicious. They sort of get this wry smile on their face, you know, because Charlotte is more or less repeating what we found on the website.

The story we found, I'm going to tell it to you in chapters. So, chapter one, the school. Can you tell me where we're going? Yeah, we are on 75th and York, and we are headed to Lycée de New York, too. By this point, I'd already traded some emails with DFree86. His real name turned out to be David Freeman.

The story we found, I'm going to tell it to you in chapters. So, chapter one, the school. Can you tell me where we're going? Yeah, we are on 75th and York, and we are headed to Lycée de New York, too. By this point, I'd already traded some emails with DFree86. His real name turned out to be David Freeman.

High quality ingredients, high quality packaging, which is like a good slogan, but doesn't necessarily offer much of a window into how the company is actually thinking about the environmental trade-offs. And she's wandering into a room full of teenage sharpshooters. So Romy tries to press Charlotte on the topic.

High quality ingredients, high quality packaging, which is like a good slogan, but doesn't necessarily offer much of a window into how the company is actually thinking about the environmental trade-offs. And she's wandering into a room full of teenage sharpshooters. So Romy tries to press Charlotte on the topic.

And Charlotte's like, look, terracotta, not the villain here. The villain here is the other kinds of packaging and the word that nobody's saying. It's like, plastic's the obvious villain here. Like, terracotta is obviously better for the environment than plastic.

And Charlotte's like, look, terracotta, not the villain here. The villain here is the other kinds of packaging and the word that nobody's saying. It's like, plastic's the obvious villain here. Like, terracotta is obviously better for the environment than plastic.

No, it is not. They're also asking these kinds of serious hardball questions. They're teenagers, but they just seem very well-versed in what I would think of as adult corporate consultant lingo.

No, it is not. They're also asking these kinds of serious hardball questions. They're teenagers, but they just seem very well-versed in what I would think of as adult corporate consultant lingo.

It was almost like the students had decided to go full prosecutor here.

It was almost like the students had decided to go full prosecutor here.

This is actually surprising to me. Like, I'd assumed that the French yogurt came from France, but the ingredients are actually arriving from in-state in New York, which did seem maybe more environmentally sound, although not something La Fermiere is particularly bragging about. We started to wrap up the conversation and we say our awkward goodbyes. We thank Charlotte for her time.

This is actually surprising to me. Like, I'd assumed that the French yogurt came from France, but the ingredients are actually arriving from in-state in New York, which did seem maybe more environmentally sound, although not something La Fermiere is particularly bragging about. We started to wrap up the conversation and we say our awkward goodbyes. We thank Charlotte for her time.

Charlotte, thank you so much for your time. This is really helpful. We appreciate it. We'll talk soon.

Charlotte, thank you so much for your time. This is really helpful. We appreciate it. We'll talk soon.

And he explained that he was a teacher at this French school in Manhattan, and one of the classes he teaches is basically a French school version of search engine. Like, that's kind of what he seems to be doing here. Sacre bleu.

And he explained that he was a teacher at this French school in Manhattan, and one of the classes he teaches is basically a French school version of search engine. Like, that's kind of what he seems to be doing here. Sacre bleu.

Bye now.

Bye now.

Romy and Anouk, coming off of that call, are just, like, positively elated. Like, I think, one, I just think they're excited to be in the same podcast studio that Maya Hawke was once inside of. Well, yeah. But I also think that, like, they just played hardball with the company executive, and they kind of won. Yeah, an adult flinch. Yeah.

Romy and Anouk, coming off of that call, are just, like, positively elated. Like, I think, one, I just think they're excited to be in the same podcast studio that Maya Hawke was once inside of. Well, yeah. But I also think that, like, they just played hardball with the company executive, and they kind of won. Yeah, an adult flinch. Yeah.

There's no thing that makes a teenager happier than, like... An adult flinch. It's not like we got any answers. It's not like we're actually that much closer to the real answer to our question here, which is like, is terracotta more sustainable than plastic?

There's no thing that makes a teenager happier than, like... An adult flinch. It's not like we got any answers. It's not like we're actually that much closer to the real answer to our question here, which is like, is terracotta more sustainable than plastic?

But Romy and Anouk at this point are just increasingly skeptical that the answers the company is giving us are anything more than just marketing speak.

But Romy and Anouk at this point are just increasingly skeptical that the answers the company is giving us are anything more than just marketing speak.

Like for premium brands now, it's kind of a given that if they're going to price it so much higher, they're going to have to do something about climate change because it's like such a big concern. All brands now.

Like for premium brands now, it's kind of a given that if they're going to price it so much higher, they're going to have to do something about climate change because it's like such a big concern. All brands now.

Even like food, makeup, clothing. Anything has to have a claim that, oh, we're doing this to protect the planet. Or ethical, whether it be ethics or sustainability. They're good at like making it show, even though it's not really true. Yeah.

Even like food, makeup, clothing. Anything has to have a claim that, oh, we're doing this to protect the planet. Or ethical, whether it be ethics or sustainability. They're good at like making it show, even though it's not really true. Yeah.

If they were skeptical just reading La Fermiere's website, Romeo and Enoch were much more skeptical having just spoken to a person at the company. But also, like, we're two 11th graders and a podcast producer who majored in literature. Yes. We don't actually know what we're talking about.

If they were skeptical just reading La Fermiere's website, Romeo and Enoch were much more skeptical having just spoken to a person at the company. But also, like, we're two 11th graders and a podcast producer who majored in literature. Yes. We don't actually know what we're talking about.

Well, it taught me to think that we needed to talk to an expert here. And after a break, that's exactly what we're going to do. Hey, PJ. Yes. Welcome back to the show. Thank you. Chapter seven, a surprising answer. So May of that year, nearing the end of 11th grade for Romy and Anouk, I went back to the leasee for a second time.

Well, it taught me to think that we needed to talk to an expert here. And after a break, that's exactly what we're going to do. Hey, PJ. Yes. Welcome back to the show. Thank you. Chapter seven, a surprising answer. So May of that year, nearing the end of 11th grade for Romy and Anouk, I went back to the leasee for a second time.

And you know that feeling when the end of the school year is around the corner, you can just kind of feel it. Everything's a little looser. Memorial Day is around the corner. Romy's actually busy the day that I show up. She had an exam that not even search engine could get her out of. But I do meet up with Anouk.

And you know that feeling when the end of the school year is around the corner, you can just kind of feel it. Everything's a little looser. Memorial Day is around the corner. Romy's actually busy the day that I show up. She had an exam that not even search engine could get her out of. But I do meet up with Anouk.

Basically, I have this week of school, next week of school, and then two days. And after that, it's just a full week of studying, then a French final, and then another week of studying, then another French exam, and then I'm done.

Basically, I have this week of school, next week of school, and then two days. And after that, it's just a full week of studying, then a French final, and then another week of studying, then another French exam, and then I'm done.

That sounds like a lot of studying and a lot of exams. The reason Anouk and I were meeting up in the middle of exam season was, of course, we still had some more yogurt homework to do. We knew La Fermiere was saying that terracotta was a sustainable selling point for their brand, but now we wanted to talk to a scientist who could help us understand whether or not that was actually true.

That sounds like a lot of studying and a lot of exams. The reason Anouk and I were meeting up in the middle of exam season was, of course, we still had some more yogurt homework to do. We knew La Fermiere was saying that terracotta was a sustainable selling point for their brand, but now we wanted to talk to a scientist who could help us understand whether or not that was actually true.

And so after doing some research, we landed on who we thought might be the right expert.

And so after doing some research, we landed on who we thought might be the right expert.

Okay, great. And how should we refer to you? Do you prefer maybe Dr. Miller?

Okay, great. And how should we refer to you? Do you prefer maybe Dr. Miller?

Shelly, all right. Perfect.

Shelly, all right. Perfect.

Shelly's work is fascinating. She does something called life cycle analysis, which means that she studies the environmental impact of products from the moment the materials are extracted from the ground to when they are manufactured, to when they're transported, to when eventually they're disposed or recycled.

Shelly's work is fascinating. She does something called life cycle analysis, which means that she studies the environmental impact of products from the moment the materials are extracted from the ground to when they are manufactured, to when they're transported, to when eventually they're disposed or recycled.

And so Anouk explains the class that she's taking and the question that came out of it to Shelly.

And so Anouk explains the class that she's taking and the question that came out of it to Shelly.

So, um, Connaissance du Monde is this course we have at our school that is part of this, um, international baccalaureat, which is this international exam that we take in France.

So, um, Connaissance du Monde is this course we have at our school that is part of this, um, international baccalaureat, which is this international exam that we take in France.

And since we're all French, yogurt and this French brand of yogurt called La Fermière is an important part of our daily life, especially we go to the cafeteria and there's this yogurt and we're all wondering, like, why is it in clay pots instead of plastic pots like all the others?

And since we're all French, yogurt and this French brand of yogurt called La Fermière is an important part of our daily life, especially we go to the cafeteria and there's this yogurt and we're all wondering, like, why is it in clay pots instead of plastic pots like all the others?

David. Hey, David. Hey, Garrett.

David. Hey, David. Hey, Garrett.

And so we started asking some other questions, especially related to sustainability and just maybe trying to find why that was.

And so we started asking some other questions, especially related to sustainability and just maybe trying to find why that was.

The first thing that she says is that to answer a question like this, you need to know what your priorities are. Because she says that there's really no human activity that is good for the environment. Podcasting. Besides podcasting, she said. We only generate hot air. That's warming the climate, Peter. That's not good. What this means is that this is a conversation about trade-offs.

The first thing that she says is that to answer a question like this, you need to know what your priorities are. Because she says that there's really no human activity that is good for the environment. Podcasting. Besides podcasting, she said. We only generate hot air. That's warming the climate, Peter. That's not good. What this means is that this is a conversation about trade-offs.

Because different things are bad for the environment in different ways. And so we asked her to kind of compare our two materials here, terracotta and plastic. She started with plastic, and right off the bat, she's like, Plastic is terrible for the environment.

Because different things are bad for the environment in different ways. And so we asked her to kind of compare our two materials here, terracotta and plastic. She started with plastic, and right off the bat, she's like, Plastic is terrible for the environment.

David greets us, and I want you to imagine, like, the prototypical high school English teacher. Which prototype? Youngish, tasteful glasses, short haircut. Yeah.

David greets us, and I want you to imagine, like, the prototypical high school English teacher. Which prototype? Youngish, tasteful glasses, short haircut. Yeah.

And then there's plastics afterlife, like it clogs landfills, turtles choke on it, microplastics, et cetera, et cetera.

And then there's plastics afterlife, like it clogs landfills, turtles choke on it, microplastics, et cetera, et cetera.

And this is where Shelley started to really surprise me. I think us, actually. Like, yes, plastic sucks. Yes. But remember, everything's a trade-off here. And so, like, how does plastic compare to everything else out there?

And this is where Shelley started to really surprise me. I think us, actually. Like, yes, plastic sucks. Yes. But remember, everything's a trade-off here. And so, like, how does plastic compare to everything else out there?

Yeah, so for example, how do you go about weighing plastic against another material? How does that work from a professional standpoint?

Yeah, so for example, how do you go about weighing plastic against another material? How does that work from a professional standpoint?

Shelley says, for instance, you can use a pretty small amount of plastic to perform the same function as much heavier materials like metal or glass or terracotta.

Shelley says, for instance, you can use a pretty small amount of plastic to perform the same function as much heavier materials like metal or glass or terracotta.

Yeah, it's super interesting because that's exactly where we started to see kind of the fault in the image of La Fermière, where we started thinking, okay, it's so much heavier that during transportation, it probably emits a lot more CO2. And so we're really wondering, where does this idea that plastic is bad or is worse maybe than glass or terracotta, where do you think that comes from?

Yeah, it's super interesting because that's exactly where we started to see kind of the fault in the image of La Fermière, where we started thinking, okay, it's so much heavier that during transportation, it probably emits a lot more CO2. And so we're really wondering, where does this idea that plastic is bad or is worse maybe than glass or terracotta, where do you think that comes from?

So, the Lycée Francais de New York, it's a bilingual school, mostly kids from France and the U.S., although there are students from all over. And it's an old school, started in 1935.

So, the Lycée Francais de New York, it's a bilingual school, mostly kids from France and the U.S., although there are students from all over. And it's an old school, started in 1935.

Just to say, Shelley is, of course, focusing on just the environmental impact here. Obviously, there's a whole other conversation to be had about the possible health impacts of plastics or microplastics that we're just not going to get into today.

Just to say, Shelley is, of course, focusing on just the environmental impact here. Obviously, there's a whole other conversation to be had about the possible health impacts of plastics or microplastics that we're just not going to get into today.

But when it comes to sustainability, Shelley thinks that plastic's reputation as public enemy number one kind of just boils down to how visible its environmental impacts are. Whereas with other materials like glass, metal, terracotta, a lot of these things require a ton of energy to produce and to transport, and much more than plastic. But their impacts are just more abstract and less visual.

But when it comes to sustainability, Shelley thinks that plastic's reputation as public enemy number one kind of just boils down to how visible its environmental impacts are. Whereas with other materials like glass, metal, terracotta, a lot of these things require a ton of energy to produce and to transport, and much more than plastic. But their impacts are just more abstract and less visual.

Well, I actually never thought of that, honestly. It kind of goes back to this idea that if you see a yogurt in a clay pot and a yogurt in a plastic pot, you're going to think, oh, yeah, plastic is bad, while clay has this idea of, like, oh, it's natural. Yeah, it's probably better for the environment.

Well, I actually never thought of that, honestly. It kind of goes back to this idea that if you see a yogurt in a clay pot and a yogurt in a plastic pot, you're going to think, oh, yeah, plastic is bad, while clay has this idea of, like, oh, it's natural. Yeah, it's probably better for the environment.

And so you, as a very well-informed, conscientious consumer, you're at the grocery store, you have a choice between a yogurt that comes in a plastic container and a yogurt that comes in a terracotta container. Which would you feel better about picking up on a random Tuesday?

And so you, as a very well-informed, conscientious consumer, you're at the grocery store, you have a choice between a yogurt that comes in a plastic container and a yogurt that comes in a terracotta container. Which would you feel better about picking up on a random Tuesday?

David's been at the school for the last 14 years, and he teaches two subjects, English and also the class that we're here to see, a class all about curiosity.

David's been at the school for the last 14 years, and he teaches two subjects, English and also the class that we're here to see, a class all about curiosity.

It doesn't scream up market. Yeah. But... It just turns out that if you get into the nitty gritty of the environmental trade-offs here, like the thing that doesn't look environmentally friendly, it doesn't have the aesthetic of environmentalism, oftentimes can be more environmentally friendly. But. But. This is an important but.

It doesn't scream up market. Yeah. But... It just turns out that if you get into the nitty gritty of the environmental trade-offs here, like the thing that doesn't look environmentally friendly, it doesn't have the aesthetic of environmentalism, oftentimes can be more environmentally friendly. But. But. This is an important but.

Shelley goes on to say that this whole conversation we're having about packaging kind of misses the point entirely.

Shelley goes on to say that this whole conversation we're having about packaging kind of misses the point entirely.

She says plastic's typically less than 10% of the total environmental impact of the food product that you're consuming. The food itself, far more important to whether or not you're actually making a sustainable decision. What's the carbon footprint of yogurt? This is a good question, and this invites a whole lot of other questions on the other side of it.

She says plastic's typically less than 10% of the total environmental impact of the food product that you're consuming. The food itself, far more important to whether or not you're actually making a sustainable decision. What's the carbon footprint of yogurt? This is a good question, and this invites a whole lot of other questions on the other side of it.

But what she's saying is that packaging's kind of a red herring. And also, like, La Fermiere's marketing is kind of encouraging you to follow that red herring. Like, they're not saying, look how sustainable our yogurt is. They're saying, look how sustainable our packaging is, which is another reason for me to at least believe that this is primarily a marketing decision.

But what she's saying is that packaging's kind of a red herring. And also, like, La Fermiere's marketing is kind of encouraging you to follow that red herring. Like, they're not saying, look how sustainable our yogurt is. They're saying, look how sustainable our packaging is, which is another reason for me to at least believe that this is primarily a marketing decision.

You're with the teenagers in this one. I'm with the teenagers. And also, the funny thing is that La Fermiere's yogurt, which is the thing actually driving whether or not it's a more sustainable option than its competitors, seems to be pretty environmentally friendly.

You're with the teenagers in this one. I'm with the teenagers. And also, the funny thing is that La Fermiere's yogurt, which is the thing actually driving whether or not it's a more sustainable option than its competitors, seems to be pretty environmentally friendly.

And there's a couple reasons for that. One is that the company operates on a kind of make it where you sell it principle, meaning the company's two biggest markets, France and the US. The dairy is produced and processed locally in both of those countries.

And there's a couple reasons for that. One is that the company operates on a kind of make it where you sell it principle, meaning the company's two biggest markets, France and the US. The dairy is produced and processed locally in both of those countries.

The students start streaming in. It's about 15 students in total. And as the final stragglers take their seats, David just launches into his lesson for the day.

The students start streaming in. It's about 15 students in total. And as the final stragglers take their seats, David just launches into his lesson for the day.

So you're not adding a bunch of transport miles inside that part of the supply chain, which is going to lower the carbon footprint that's mostly invisible to the consumer. But also, at least in France, where this data is public, La Fermiere is sourcing its dairy from small local farms with an average of only 35 cows.

So you're not adding a bunch of transport miles inside that part of the supply chain, which is going to lower the carbon footprint that's mostly invisible to the consumer. But also, at least in France, where this data is public, La Fermiere is sourcing its dairy from small local farms with an average of only 35 cows.

And farms like these, if they're using certain agricultural practices, they could be better for the environment than large-scale dairy farms.

And farms like these, if they're using certain agricultural practices, they could be better for the environment than large-scale dairy farms.

Yeah, you could eat non-dairy yogurt. And this is kind of the quality of this kind of sustainability conversation. It's a hall of mirrors. Being human is bad for the environment, and all sorts of decisions we make inside of being human are also bad for the environment. So yes, you could say, I no longer eat full dairy yogurt. I eat

Yeah, you could eat non-dairy yogurt. And this is kind of the quality of this kind of sustainability conversation. It's a hall of mirrors. Being human is bad for the environment, and all sorts of decisions we make inside of being human are also bad for the environment. So yes, you could say, I no longer eat full dairy yogurt. I eat

oat milk, yogurt, or whatever else is out there, and that would be better for the environment, and you wouldn't have to have this conversation at all. But this is the conversation we've chosen. But this is the thing I hadn't understood when the teacher, David, first posed the question. He wasn't just asking about the packaging.

oat milk, yogurt, or whatever else is out there, and that would be better for the environment, and you wouldn't have to have this conversation at all. But this is the conversation we've chosen. But this is the thing I hadn't understood when the teacher, David, first posed the question. He wasn't just asking about the packaging.

He was asking about all the difficult ethical choices involved, which is actually something that teenagers like thinking through. And I think as Romy and Anouk grasped that, this question had become their question, too.

He was asking about all the difficult ethical choices involved, which is actually something that teenagers like thinking through. And I think as Romy and Anouk grasped that, this question had become their question, too.

Thank you so much for your time again. Honestly, you have no idea how far this has taken us from just a stupid little yogurt question. So thank you so much for your help.

Thank you so much for your time again. Honestly, you have no idea how far this has taken us from just a stupid little yogurt question. So thank you so much for your help.

Again, here's the teacher, David Freeman.

Again, here's the teacher, David Freeman.

We were in the same classroom Shruti and I visited months prior. Romi and Anouk seemed, and I'd never actually seen the sight of them, a little nervous to speak in front of the class.

We were in the same classroom Shruti and I visited months prior. Romi and Anouk seemed, and I'd never actually seen the sight of them, a little nervous to speak in front of the class.

So, and now we are back to the last CDM class of the year ever. Not, well, not ever. There's going to be classes next year. And so, yeah, I think this has confirmed a lot of our initial theories, so on how it could... It's a brand thing. It's a brand thing. It's a brand DNA thing and also a marketing decision over sustainability, maybe. And, yeah.

So, and now we are back to the last CDM class of the year ever. Not, well, not ever. There's going to be classes next year. And so, yeah, I think this has confirmed a lot of our initial theories, so on how it could... It's a brand thing. It's a brand thing. It's a brand DNA thing and also a marketing decision over sustainability, maybe. And, yeah.

And Romy and Anouk just walked the class through the steps of their reporting, everything we had done along the way.

And Romy and Anouk just walked the class through the steps of their reporting, everything we had done along the way.

They talked about all the people we interviewed.

They talked about all the people we interviewed.

The head of sales and marketing at FML US.

The head of sales and marketing at FML US.

They broke down all the complicated conclusions we had drawn.

They broke down all the complicated conclusions we had drawn.

But she also mentioned a very important point, which was that what's inside the packaging matters much more than the packaging itself.

But she also mentioned a very important point, which was that what's inside the packaging matters much more than the packaging itself.

And of course, they shared their marketing advice for La Fermiere.

And of course, they shared their marketing advice for La Fermiere.

I feel like they're kind of missing the point in a way because they're really advertising the sustainability aspect of their pots when really they should be doing the same thing but for the yogurt. Because we just, not proved, but we're able to question the fact that clay pots are not maybe sustainable. But we all know that locally produced food, which is what they do, is good for the environment.

I feel like they're kind of missing the point in a way because they're really advertising the sustainability aspect of their pots when really they should be doing the same thing but for the yogurt. Because we just, not proved, but we're able to question the fact that clay pots are not maybe sustainable. But we all know that locally produced food, which is what they do, is good for the environment.

So if they wanted to kind of pitch this climate aspect of it, they should probably focus on the yogurt.

So if they wanted to kind of pitch this climate aspect of it, they should probably focus on the yogurt.

And with that, homework assignment complete. The stupid little yogurt question was officially done. Chapter 8 Graduation. So I should say, as sometimes happens on the show, months passed while we slowly worked on the story. And months in the life of an adult, not such a big deal. But for these teenagers, it meant that we would meet up occasionally as their life was speeding up pretty quickly.

And with that, homework assignment complete. The stupid little yogurt question was officially done. Chapter 8 Graduation. So I should say, as sometimes happens on the show, months passed while we slowly worked on the story. And months in the life of an adult, not such a big deal. But for these teenagers, it meant that we would meet up occasionally as their life was speeding up pretty quickly.

And David, I should say at this point, avid podcast listener, maybe a bit of a podcast producer at heart. And so with a bit of a flair for the dramatic, he begins to recreate the question that brought us here.

And David, I should say at this point, avid podcast listener, maybe a bit of a podcast producer at heart. And so with a bit of a flair for the dramatic, he begins to recreate the question that brought us here.

In this case, towards graduation and the life that followed after. Romi did end up finishing her big research project on morphine addiction. She's about to head to the Lund School of Economics in the fall. Anouk's finishing up high school in Paris and is going to head to a French university in the fall.

In this case, towards graduation and the life that followed after. Romi did end up finishing her big research project on morphine addiction. She's about to head to the Lund School of Economics in the fall. Anouk's finishing up high school in Paris and is going to head to a French university in the fall.

But the last time we got together in person in New York, I brought in a couple pots of La Fermiere for them to taste.

But the last time we got together in person in New York, I brought in a couple pots of La Fermiere for them to taste.

I mean, orange blossom. Does that mean orange? I think there's a kind of honey that's orange blossom. Oh, shit. Yeah, there's no orange on it.

I mean, orange blossom. Does that mean orange? I think there's a kind of honey that's orange blossom. Oh, shit. Yeah, there's no orange on it.

Yeah, so we just opened the yogurt. There is indeed yogurt in there.

Yeah, so we just opened the yogurt. There is indeed yogurt in there.

This was the final step in the investigation. You guys have anything else to say about yogurt?

This was the final step in the investigation. You guys have anything else to say about yogurt?

Nope, just enjoy it. Pretty good. Yeah, it's actually it's good.

Nope, just enjoy it. Pretty good. Yeah, it's actually it's good.

It's good.

It's good.

I agree.

I agree.

I don't know. I want it to be more like not like completely convincing. I don't want to be convinced by it, but it's not amazing. Like this texture is amazing.

I don't know. I want it to be more like not like completely convincing. I don't want to be convinced by it, but it's not amazing. Like this texture is amazing.

The students start giggling here because David has very theatrically revealed a pot of yogurt.

The students start giggling here because David has very theatrically revealed a pot of yogurt.

La fermière yogurt.

La fermière yogurt.

La Fermiere is a small artisan French yogurt brand. Do you know this brand?

La Fermiere is a small artisan French yogurt brand. Do you know this brand?

I noticed this brand a little bit. You'll see them. Yeah. So La Fermiere yogurt stands out from the other brands in the grocery store because instead of the plastic packaging, you typically see yogurt come in. La Fermiere comes in these cutely colored, often lavender clay pots. It's a premium yogurt, definitely more expensive than your Chobanis and your Yoplas.

I noticed this brand a little bit. You'll see them. Yeah. So La Fermiere yogurt stands out from the other brands in the grocery store because instead of the plastic packaging, you typically see yogurt come in. La Fermiere comes in these cutely colored, often lavender clay pots. It's a premium yogurt, definitely more expensive than your Chobanis and your Yoplas.

They have like premium sounding flavors, rose, lavender, orange blossom honey. Mm-hmm.

They have like premium sounding flavors, rose, lavender, orange blossom honey. Mm-hmm.

David asks his students for theories, like, why would this one company choose to use clay pots when pretty much no other company does?

David asks his students for theories, like, why would this one company choose to use clay pots when pretty much no other company does?

Is it good for the environment? Mm-hmm. Anouk?

Is it good for the environment? Mm-hmm. Anouk?

So is it cheaper to produce than plastic pots?

So is it cheaper to produce than plastic pots?

We could contact the brand to see if they had any specific reasons when they first produced the yogurt.

We could contact the brand to see if they had any specific reasons when they first produced the yogurt.

It's weird seeing this teacher do the thing that we do in pitch meetings, which is just to start to wonder at the possible explanations for these strange questions we encounter. Yes.

It's weird seeing this teacher do the thing that we do in pitch meetings, which is just to start to wonder at the possible explanations for these strange questions we encounter. Yes.

Just go on their website and see if they have anything about it.

Just go on their website and see if they have anything about it.

So David wraps up the class discussion, and he pulls me and Truthy aside. He had told us earlier that he'd chosen two students for this yogurt question to try to figure out why, like why La Fermiere was using clay pots for their yogurt.

So David wraps up the class discussion, and he pulls me and Truthy aside. He had told us earlier that he'd chosen two students for this yogurt question to try to figure out why, like why La Fermiere was using clay pots for their yogurt.

I don't know if that's good luck or bad luck, but thank you all the same.

I don't know if that's good luck or bad luck, but thank you all the same.

Chapter two, the students. Okay, for the record, can I just get you to say your name?

Chapter two, the students. Okay, for the record, can I just get you to say your name?

Romy and Anouk, both 11th graders at the school.

Romy and Anouk, both 11th graders at the school.

Right, and which in French is what it's called?

Right, and which in French is what it's called?

I'd get to know Romy and Anouk much better in the many months that would follow. Romy, I would learn, grew up in New York. She's one of those teenagers who almost seems like a fully-formed professional somehow.

I'd get to know Romy and Anouk much better in the many months that would follow. Romy, I would learn, grew up in New York. She's one of those teenagers who almost seems like a fully-formed professional somehow.

Yes. Anouk's family is from France, and she's a more laid-back type. Like, she seemed to have the kind of curiosity that chases all sorts of things, just not necessarily the stuff that shows up on a syllabus.

Yes. Anouk's family is from France, and she's a more laid-back type. Like, she seemed to have the kind of curiosity that chases all sorts of things, just not necessarily the stuff that shows up on a syllabus.

And of course, anytime we're trying to help somebody answer a question, one thing we want to know is, why do they specifically care about it? Well, first of all, do you guys eat yogurt?

And of course, anytime we're trying to help somebody answer a question, one thing we want to know is, why do they specifically care about it? Well, first of all, do you guys eat yogurt?

And what about La Fermiere?

And what about La Fermiere?

No, I don't really eat La Famille yogurt, except when I want yogurt at school because it's the one they sell, but usually not.

No, I don't really eat La Famille yogurt, except when I want yogurt at school because it's the one they sell, but usually not.

And what do you usually eat?

And what do you usually eat?

Trader Joe's Greek yogurt. Very good. Recommend.

Trader Joe's Greek yogurt. Very good. Recommend.

So Romy and Anouk, a little more blasé about La Fermiere than their teacher. Okay. Enough so that Shruti and I are beginning to wonder, like, are these two student investigators even interested in this question? Like, is this something they're excited about? Or is this just a homework assignment?

So Romy and Anouk, a little more blasé about La Fermiere than their teacher. Okay. Enough so that Shruti and I are beginning to wonder, like, are these two student investigators even interested in this question? Like, is this something they're excited about? Or is this just a homework assignment?

both of them sort of say immediately, it was your question, David, not our question. And then David replies in what I can only describe as fluent teacher.

both of them sort of say immediately, it was your question, David, not our question. And then David replies in what I can only describe as fluent teacher.

I will admit, PJ, in this moment, my faith in this Yoker question was getting kind of low.

I will admit, PJ, in this moment, my faith in this Yoker question was getting kind of low.

I was, like, more with the students here in their seeming ambivalence than I was with their teacher. But also, it turned out I was underestimating him because by the time this was all over, this question would become interesting.

I was, like, more with the students here in their seeming ambivalence than I was with their teacher. But also, it turned out I was underestimating him because by the time this was all over, this question would become interesting.

Yeah, not in a pedagogical, demonstrative, educationally effective way, like, properly interesting.

Yeah, not in a pedagogical, demonstrative, educationally effective way, like, properly interesting.

But on that day, we all just sort of dutifully get into the elevator. We're heading to the school cafeteria, which is the first stop in our investigation. And on our way there, I started talking to Anouk about her relationship to dairy products back when she was growing up in France.

But on that day, we all just sort of dutifully get into the elevator. We're heading to the school cafeteria, which is the first stop in our investigation. And on our way there, I started talking to Anouk about her relationship to dairy products back when she was growing up in France.

So I would say just consuming milk and milk-based products is something that's very advertised in France. For example, in my childhood TV show and everything, they would say at every ad break, oh, you have to consume five vegetables a day, also three different milk-based products a day.

So I would say just consuming milk and milk-based products is something that's very advertised in France. For example, in my childhood TV show and everything, they would say at every ad break, oh, you have to consume five vegetables a day, also three different milk-based products a day.

So it's definitely a big part of, especially children's lives, because there's this thing of you're going to grow taller if you eat yogurt and all of that.

So it's definitely a big part of, especially children's lives, because there's this thing of you're going to grow taller if you eat yogurt and all of that.

I didn't really think about this at the time when I first showed up to the Lycée, but one of the reasons this question was coming from this place is just that French people are extraordinarily precious about their dairy products. Oh, right. They like cheese. And just food in general. They take the quality and craft of food far more seriously than we do.

I didn't really think about this at the time when I first showed up to the Lycée, but one of the reasons this question was coming from this place is just that French people are extraordinarily precious about their dairy products. Oh, right. They like cheese. And just food in general. They take the quality and craft of food far more seriously than we do.

It felt unintuitive for me as a kid who grew up on easy cheese and country crock. I know you don't like yogurt, But if you've ever had like a fancy cheese or a traditional French butter and then gone back to like the mass-produced American versions.

It felt unintuitive for me as a kid who grew up on easy cheese and country crock. I know you don't like yogurt, But if you've ever had like a fancy cheese or a traditional French butter and then gone back to like the mass-produced American versions.

And they just eat way more of it than we do too. Like the average French person eats something like 60 pounds of cheese and 45 pounds of yogurt every year. Wait, sorry, what?

And they just eat way more of it than we do too. Like the average French person eats something like 60 pounds of cheese and 45 pounds of yogurt every year. Wait, sorry, what?

But back at the school, our little yogurt investigation squad walked into the cafeteria. Classic high school lunchroom with those long tables with the little attached stools, food serving stations in the back. The cafeteria is empty at this point, except for two adults who were seated at this one table. Surprise table.

But back at the school, our little yogurt investigation squad walked into the cafeteria. Classic high school lunchroom with those long tables with the little attached stools, food serving stations in the back. The cafeteria is empty at this point, except for two adults who were seated at this one table. Surprise table.

We were here to talk to the head of the cafeteria about La Fermiere. He was one of the people responsible for stocking this specific yogurt in the lunchroom. He was another adult, like the teacher, who seemed enchanted by this brand. And so Romy, one of the students, asks... So how popular is this yogurt?

We were here to talk to the head of the cafeteria about La Fermiere. He was one of the people responsible for stocking this specific yogurt in the lunchroom. He was another adult, like the teacher, who seemed enchanted by this brand. And so Romy, one of the students, asks... So how popular is this yogurt?

Mark didn't have much of an answer here beyond what the company was already saying on its website. That clay, sometimes they'll say terracotta or ceramic, basically the same thing. But saying it's a premium material with all kinds of reusable. and sustainability benefits. It's really, you can do a lot of things with a clay pot. And honestly, we're all just kind of sitting there and nodding along.

Mark didn't have much of an answer here beyond what the company was already saying on its website. That clay, sometimes they'll say terracotta or ceramic, basically the same thing. But saying it's a premium material with all kinds of reusable. and sustainability benefits. It's really, you can do a lot of things with a clay pot. And honestly, we're all just kind of sitting there and nodding along.

Romy and Anouk, I wouldn't say they're like actively engaged at this point. We're still inside the school building. Their teacher's still hovering close by. They're a little reserved. But after the cafeteria, the next stop on our investigation list was just the local cafe next to the school, a spot with what I thought was a slightly over-the-top French name.

Romy and Anouk, I wouldn't say they're like actively engaged at this point. We're still inside the school building. Their teacher's still hovering close by. They're a little reserved. But after the cafeteria, the next stop on our investigation list was just the local cafe next to the school, a spot with what I thought was a slightly over-the-top French name.

Okay, so we're just outside of school right now, and we're going to go in a cafe called Chez les Frenchies, which is right next to the school, literally next door.

Okay, so we're just outside of school right now, and we're going to go in a cafe called Chez les Frenchies, which is right next to the school, literally next door.

How often do you come here?

How often do you come here?

It smells like France in here.

It smells like France in here.

PJ, I should tell you something. I know you have teenagers in your life. I don't really like to reveal a prejudice of mine. Like high school students kind of make me nervous.

PJ, I should tell you something. I know you have teenagers in your life. I don't really like to reveal a prejudice of mine. Like high school students kind of make me nervous.

Yeah, like I have Gen Z friends. I've had Gen Z colleagues. But when you start getting to the younger parts of the generation or like... whatever we're calling the next generation, Gen Alpha. I don't know. I don't know how to hang. I don't know the lingo.

Yeah, like I have Gen Z friends. I've had Gen Z colleagues. But when you start getting to the younger parts of the generation or like... whatever we're calling the next generation, Gen Alpha. I don't know. I don't know how to hang. I don't know the lingo.

Yeah. And they don't do either. The thing that you're describing is the thing that made me kind of nervous walking into a high school with somewhat aloof high school kids. I understand.

And I'm feeling that way as we talk to the owner of this cafe, learning once again that adults love this yogurt, the pots are cute, they're reusable. But as the hour winds by, I can slowly feel Romi and Anouk warming to the assignment a little bit. Or maybe it's just because we're starting to get to the point where they might get to miss their next class and that's like exciting for them.

You guys owe me for letting you miss math class.

Ooh, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

So we're making small talk about class. David, the teacher, has to duck out to go teach his next class. And so for the first time, Shruti and I get a moment alone with these students. Which means I finally get to ask them what they really think about this investigation we're on.

Yeah, I mean, that's pretty much it.

Chapter three, the student's point of view. So you have this conversation. We sit down in the school library and I just asked them to tell me about that first class when their teacher David pitched this yogurt question to them. Can you just briefly in a few sentences describe sort of what that class looked like on that day?

I feel like everyone was kind of annoyed at the end of this class because they were like, why do we have to spend so much time, like so much of our free time, homework and everything on a yogurt question that nobody cares about?

They're like, look, I get it, this is school, but if we're going to be taking a two-year research class, why can't we spend our time researching stuff we actually care about?

We have been told that, oh, you have to do a project about something you're passionate about, but we have been presented with things we're not passionate about.

So what do they want to know about? Not yogurt pots. What do you wish you were spending your time on instead of thinking about yogurt?

Hearing her talk about this, I was like, of course, this yogurt question sounds stupid to you. Of course, this feels like a waste of your time.

That was the feeling I was having in this library is like, oh, these students are coming alive for the first time because they're talking about stuff that they're excited about and it's not yogurt. What do you wish you were thinking about in your yogurt thinking time?

To be completely honest, I wish I was spending this time to figure out what I want to spend it about. I'm really bad at just finding specific questions or specific things that I'm interested about, so I have some general themes. So I love design, I love architecture, art, but I just haven't been able to come up with a specific question.

Anouk doesn't know what she wants her final project to be, but in what I'm learning is like kind of classic Anouk fashion. She was like, I'd rather just be using this time to figure out what I actually am interested in. And so like, again, a clay pot of yogurt, not something that was immediately attention grabbing for her. Right.

Well, it's funny because this is something that, like, occasionally comes up for us on our show. Some weeks we spend our time thinking about small and unserious questions. Like, we might be trying to track down a Russian rapper, and meanwhile the economy is crashing and the president's trying to, like, dismantle the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau or something.

It's like, wait, how sad are the monkeys in the zoo again? And that was coming to mind as I was hearing them talk about their... serious research interests bumping up against this silly yogurt question. But this is in some ways the entire point of David's class. He's trying to teach them the disciplined form of curiosity.

Yeah, he's trying to say maybe it's a more valuable skill or at least it's the skill that this class is trying to teach you that you should be able to chase down answers to questions that you don't care about.

I've kind of been like a connoisseur de monde build where I'm like, let's just see if this is possible.

Okay. Shall we? Mm-hmm. Where do you want to start the story? So I'm going to start the story almost two years ago, actually, October 2023. I don't know if you remember this, but you get a tweet from a guy named David. And what was David saying? I'm just going to get you to read that tweet. I'm going to put it in your Slack. All right.

Welcome back to the show. Chapter four, looking for treasure. So PJ, a couple of months have passed since my first visit to the French school and we're about to hop on a call to start our investigation for real.

No, The thing that I think is propelling me and motivating me at this point is the fact that I'm getting to investigate this alongside two high schoolers who seem bored by it. The fun part for me is not, can I answer this question? Can you make them care about it? Can I get these students interested in this question? Okay. So I get on a Zoom with Romy and Anouk.

Can you both tell me what you had for breakfast this morning so I can check your levels? Yes.

I had cereal for breakfast. I had a child's breakfast. I had carrot cake and chocolate cake for breakfast.

You had two types of cake for breakfast? That's inspirational, I have to admit. It's funny, everybody we ever interview, we ask what they had for breakfast. And then with an adult, we usually follow that up by saying, can you say your name and what you do for a living?

But for high school students who don't yet do anything for a living, I had a different introductory question that I thought might tell me something about them. So when you guys were both younger, I'm curious, what did you want to be when you grew up? Like the earliest answer you can remember for yourself for that question. What did you guys want to be?

I think I wanted to be an archaeologist. I was really obsessed with history and I was a super curious kid and I really wanted, like I loved treasure hunts, stuff like that. For example, I love thrifting and I think it's the same feeling in a way. It's like you're trying to find this

treasure that feeling that anuk's teacher is trying to inspire in her like curiosity about the small things she says it's a feeling she often has just rarely about school so i don't really like school because it just takes away like free time from me like i would much rather just spend my entire days like drawing and playing music stuff like that so i usually find school pretty boring

And that's a little bit how these two students were feeling in their class about curiosity with that exceptionally eager teacher, David Freeman. Like, some of the early assignments to them just felt pretty dull.

Yeah, and it was still not really clear what the whole thing was about. And everybody's still a little bit confused.

And then came that day that Mr. Freeman showed up with his pot of yogurt. And you know what happens from there.

I mean, I feel like... When we came in, we were like, oh, come on, like not another stupid project. And this time it's about yogurt too, like the most stupid one in our opinion, like just about a pot of yogurt.

David told his class that he had two spots available to be a part of the project and Romy and Anouk decided to go for it.

Just had to send him an email with all our arguments to how we would make the best students for the assignment. But I feel like I just have this thing of like fear of missing out. Also, I had seen that Maya Hawke was on the podcast. I think Anouk and I are the only people who applied. We're not the best.

I mean, I think that's what it was. So that all brings us to today on this Zoom call, talking about how we want to tackle this yogurt question. Yeah. And we decided to start someplace easy, La Fermiere's website. Chapter 5, Red Flags. The website, it's very artfully designed, very sleek-looking photos of their yogurt. And we just navigate over to the FAQ page. Okay. Should I just read it?

Yeah, go for it. Where, helpfully, maybe a little anticlimactically, one of the questions there is our question.

And the company's answer?

Already from the first sentence on, they're trying to use the packaging as a way to say that their yogurts are great because they're calling it an all-natural packaging for all-natural yogurt. And those are very broad words. Like, what does all natural really mean?

So finding the American website lacking in detail, we head over to the French website to see if it had any other information we could use.

And you've been taking French classes. I have been taking French classes. The translation is roughly... These packages remain among the most ecological because they are inert, meaning they do not deteriorate the materials they come into contact with in a way that could cause damage to the environment.

Unlike plastic, for example, which when decomposed produces byproducts that are potentially dangerous for the environment and health. And so when the students read the company's appeal to sustainability on this website, it was like they were just naturally wired to think that this company was trying to pull a fast one on them.

This is the first time that I start to see the flicker of real curiosity in their eyes. It's like, this company is lying to us.

Well, it's funny. I wasn't quite sure if it was their generation or if it was their, like, Frenchness, but they are naturally far more skeptical of corporations than I think I was, at least in high school. Yeah. But Romy told me this story that helped me understand where this generation is coming from, like, really how the media they've experienced has shaped their worldview.

To me, it was interesting. I've heard parents talk about how much screen time their teenagers were getting during the pandemic, but I'd never actually heard anybody wonder about, like, what specific rabbit holes they were going down while looking at their screens. Yeah. And for Romy and Anouk, it seemed to be this kind of anti-consumerist rabbit hole.

I know that when a brand says that they're doing something fully for their customers and fully for the environment, it's usually hiding something and it's usually they're doing it for their own profit because that's just how everything works. And we wouldn't be facing climate change and we wouldn't be having those issues if... every company's first motive was to make Earth and the people happy.

I know that in our world, most things are for profit and have to be for profit.

Yeah, I was thinking, I feel like Maybe ceramics is better for the environment. If you discard it in nature, it's not going to last as long, whatever, than plastic. But it's also a lot heavier. So when for transportation, that means you can't transport as much of it. It's like more sensitive.

Yeah, so that was the question we received on Twitter. Small question about a specific yogurt brand and why it came in a clay pot rather than a plastic one. Okay. Check, check, check. And it turned out the school that this question was coming from was just a few subway stops away from our office, so Shruti and I figured we would investigate their investigation.

So the students, what they seem to think was going on here was that the company knows sustainability is important to high-end consumers. So if a product looks sustainable and can be marketed as sustainable, who cares if the thing is actually sustainable? Like what's important is what the consumer thinks because what the consumer thinks will determine how much they can sell it for.

Well, to be clear, there's no evidence, at least online at this point, that anything actually fishy was going on. This was just some teenage theorizing at this point. But we decided to reach out to the company to see if anyone there was down to talk to us about their clay pots. Like a bunch of French kids think you're lying. I didn't go. That was not my email to the company.

And to be clear, we were going in skeptical, but also with an open mind. Chapter six, the yogurt executive. Can you hear yourself when you talk?

Yeah.

So I meet up with the students and their teacher David at Search Engine HQ. It's all very exciting. An executive at La Fermiere has very generously agreed to talk to us.

Okay, so hi.

So as the head of sales and marketing in the U.S., Charlotte would be the first one to admit, like, she's not a sustainability expert, but she does know the company and its products very well.

So basically, La Fermiere yogurt for many decades had come in wax-coated paper pots. And then in the 90s, Charlotte tells us that the company decided to switch to the terracotta pot, both because they wanted to stand out to their customers, but also because they were thinking about the environment.

And as soon as Charlotte is starting to, like, sing the praises of this terracotta pot for all of its ecological virtues, I can see the students kind of, like, squirming in their chairs. It's just making them more suspicious. They sort of get this wry smile on their face, you know, because Charlotte is more or less repeating what we found on the website.

The story we found, I'm going to tell it to you in chapters. So, chapter one, the school. Can you tell me where we're going? Yeah, we are on 75th and York, and we are headed to Lycée de New York, too. By this point, I'd already traded some emails with DFree86. His real name turned out to be David Freeman.

High quality ingredients, high quality packaging, which is like a good slogan, but doesn't necessarily offer much of a window into how the company is actually thinking about the environmental trade-offs. And she's wandering into a room full of teenage sharpshooters. So Romy tries to press Charlotte on the topic.

And Charlotte's like, look, terracotta, not the villain here. The villain here is the other kinds of packaging and the word that nobody's saying. It's like, plastic's the obvious villain here. Like, terracotta is obviously better for the environment than plastic.

No, it is not. They're also asking these kinds of serious hardball questions. They're teenagers, but they just seem very well-versed in what I would think of as adult corporate consultant lingo.

It was almost like the students had decided to go full prosecutor here.

This is actually surprising to me. Like, I'd assumed that the French yogurt came from France, but the ingredients are actually arriving from in-state in New York, which did seem maybe more environmentally sound, although not something La Fermiere is particularly bragging about. We started to wrap up the conversation and we say our awkward goodbyes. We thank Charlotte for her time.

Charlotte, thank you so much for your time. This is really helpful. We appreciate it. We'll talk soon.

And he explained that he was a teacher at this French school in Manhattan, and one of the classes he teaches is basically a French school version of search engine. Like, that's kind of what he seems to be doing here. Sacre bleu.

Bye now.

Romy and Anouk, coming off of that call, are just, like, positively elated. Like, I think, one, I just think they're excited to be in the same podcast studio that Maya Hawke was once inside of. Well, yeah. But I also think that, like, they just played hardball with the company executive, and they kind of won. Yeah, an adult flinch. Yeah.

There's no thing that makes a teenager happier than, like... An adult flinch. It's not like we got any answers. It's not like we're actually that much closer to the real answer to our question here, which is like, is terracotta more sustainable than plastic?

But Romy and Anouk at this point are just increasingly skeptical that the answers the company is giving us are anything more than just marketing speak.

Like for premium brands now, it's kind of a given that if they're going to price it so much higher, they're going to have to do something about climate change because it's like such a big concern. All brands now.

Even like food, makeup, clothing. Anything has to have a claim that, oh, we're doing this to protect the planet. Or ethical, whether it be ethics or sustainability. They're good at like making it show, even though it's not really true. Yeah.

If they were skeptical just reading La Fermiere's website, Romeo and Enoch were much more skeptical having just spoken to a person at the company. But also, like, we're two 11th graders and a podcast producer who majored in literature. Yes. We don't actually know what we're talking about.

Well, it taught me to think that we needed to talk to an expert here. And after a break, that's exactly what we're going to do. Hey, PJ. Yes. Welcome back to the show. Thank you. Chapter seven, a surprising answer. So May of that year, nearing the end of 11th grade for Romy and Anouk, I went back to the leasee for a second time.

And you know that feeling when the end of the school year is around the corner, you can just kind of feel it. Everything's a little looser. Memorial Day is around the corner. Romy's actually busy the day that I show up. She had an exam that not even search engine could get her out of. But I do meet up with Anouk.

Basically, I have this week of school, next week of school, and then two days. And after that, it's just a full week of studying, then a French final, and then another week of studying, then another French exam, and then I'm done.

That sounds like a lot of studying and a lot of exams. The reason Anouk and I were meeting up in the middle of exam season was, of course, we still had some more yogurt homework to do. We knew La Fermiere was saying that terracotta was a sustainable selling point for their brand, but now we wanted to talk to a scientist who could help us understand whether or not that was actually true.

And so after doing some research, we landed on who we thought might be the right expert.

Okay, great. And how should we refer to you? Do you prefer maybe Dr. Miller?

Shelly, all right. Perfect.

Shelly's work is fascinating. She does something called life cycle analysis, which means that she studies the environmental impact of products from the moment the materials are extracted from the ground to when they are manufactured, to when they're transported, to when eventually they're disposed or recycled.

And so Anouk explains the class that she's taking and the question that came out of it to Shelly.

So, um, Connaissance du Monde is this course we have at our school that is part of this, um, international baccalaureat, which is this international exam that we take in France.

And since we're all French, yogurt and this French brand of yogurt called La Fermière is an important part of our daily life, especially we go to the cafeteria and there's this yogurt and we're all wondering, like, why is it in clay pots instead of plastic pots like all the others?

David. Hey, David. Hey, Garrett.

And so we started asking some other questions, especially related to sustainability and just maybe trying to find why that was.

The first thing that she says is that to answer a question like this, you need to know what your priorities are. Because she says that there's really no human activity that is good for the environment. Podcasting. Besides podcasting, she said. We only generate hot air. That's warming the climate, Peter. That's not good. What this means is that this is a conversation about trade-offs.

Because different things are bad for the environment in different ways. And so we asked her to kind of compare our two materials here, terracotta and plastic. She started with plastic, and right off the bat, she's like, Plastic is terrible for the environment.

David greets us, and I want you to imagine, like, the prototypical high school English teacher. Which prototype? Youngish, tasteful glasses, short haircut. Yeah.

And then there's plastics afterlife, like it clogs landfills, turtles choke on it, microplastics, et cetera, et cetera.

And this is where Shelley started to really surprise me. I think us, actually. Like, yes, plastic sucks. Yes. But remember, everything's a trade-off here. And so, like, how does plastic compare to everything else out there?

Yeah, so for example, how do you go about weighing plastic against another material? How does that work from a professional standpoint?

Shelley says, for instance, you can use a pretty small amount of plastic to perform the same function as much heavier materials like metal or glass or terracotta.

Yeah, it's super interesting because that's exactly where we started to see kind of the fault in the image of La Fermière, where we started thinking, okay, it's so much heavier that during transportation, it probably emits a lot more CO2. And so we're really wondering, where does this idea that plastic is bad or is worse maybe than glass or terracotta, where do you think that comes from?

So, the Lycée Francais de New York, it's a bilingual school, mostly kids from France and the U.S., although there are students from all over. And it's an old school, started in 1935.

Just to say, Shelley is, of course, focusing on just the environmental impact here. Obviously, there's a whole other conversation to be had about the possible health impacts of plastics or microplastics that we're just not going to get into today.

But when it comes to sustainability, Shelley thinks that plastic's reputation as public enemy number one kind of just boils down to how visible its environmental impacts are. Whereas with other materials like glass, metal, terracotta, a lot of these things require a ton of energy to produce and to transport, and much more than plastic. But their impacts are just more abstract and less visual.

Well, I actually never thought of that, honestly. It kind of goes back to this idea that if you see a yogurt in a clay pot and a yogurt in a plastic pot, you're going to think, oh, yeah, plastic is bad, while clay has this idea of, like, oh, it's natural. Yeah, it's probably better for the environment.

And so you, as a very well-informed, conscientious consumer, you're at the grocery store, you have a choice between a yogurt that comes in a plastic container and a yogurt that comes in a terracotta container. Which would you feel better about picking up on a random Tuesday?

David's been at the school for the last 14 years, and he teaches two subjects, English and also the class that we're here to see, a class all about curiosity.

It doesn't scream up market. Yeah. But... It just turns out that if you get into the nitty gritty of the environmental trade-offs here, like the thing that doesn't look environmentally friendly, it doesn't have the aesthetic of environmentalism, oftentimes can be more environmentally friendly. But. But. This is an important but.

Shelley goes on to say that this whole conversation we're having about packaging kind of misses the point entirely.

She says plastic's typically less than 10% of the total environmental impact of the food product that you're consuming. The food itself, far more important to whether or not you're actually making a sustainable decision. What's the carbon footprint of yogurt? This is a good question, and this invites a whole lot of other questions on the other side of it.

But what she's saying is that packaging's kind of a red herring. And also, like, La Fermiere's marketing is kind of encouraging you to follow that red herring. Like, they're not saying, look how sustainable our yogurt is. They're saying, look how sustainable our packaging is, which is another reason for me to at least believe that this is primarily a marketing decision.

You're with the teenagers in this one. I'm with the teenagers. And also, the funny thing is that La Fermiere's yogurt, which is the thing actually driving whether or not it's a more sustainable option than its competitors, seems to be pretty environmentally friendly.

And there's a couple reasons for that. One is that the company operates on a kind of make it where you sell it principle, meaning the company's two biggest markets, France and the US. The dairy is produced and processed locally in both of those countries.

The students start streaming in. It's about 15 students in total. And as the final stragglers take their seats, David just launches into his lesson for the day.

So you're not adding a bunch of transport miles inside that part of the supply chain, which is going to lower the carbon footprint that's mostly invisible to the consumer. But also, at least in France, where this data is public, La Fermiere is sourcing its dairy from small local farms with an average of only 35 cows.

And farms like these, if they're using certain agricultural practices, they could be better for the environment than large-scale dairy farms.

Yeah, you could eat non-dairy yogurt. And this is kind of the quality of this kind of sustainability conversation. It's a hall of mirrors. Being human is bad for the environment, and all sorts of decisions we make inside of being human are also bad for the environment. So yes, you could say, I no longer eat full dairy yogurt. I eat

oat milk, yogurt, or whatever else is out there, and that would be better for the environment, and you wouldn't have to have this conversation at all. But this is the conversation we've chosen. But this is the thing I hadn't understood when the teacher, David, first posed the question. He wasn't just asking about the packaging.

He was asking about all the difficult ethical choices involved, which is actually something that teenagers like thinking through. And I think as Romy and Anouk grasped that, this question had become their question, too.

Thank you so much for your time again. Honestly, you have no idea how far this has taken us from just a stupid little yogurt question. So thank you so much for your help.

Again, here's the teacher, David Freeman.

We were in the same classroom Shruti and I visited months prior. Romi and Anouk seemed, and I'd never actually seen the sight of them, a little nervous to speak in front of the class.

So, and now we are back to the last CDM class of the year ever. Not, well, not ever. There's going to be classes next year. And so, yeah, I think this has confirmed a lot of our initial theories, so on how it could... It's a brand thing. It's a brand thing. It's a brand DNA thing and also a marketing decision over sustainability, maybe. And, yeah.

And Romy and Anouk just walked the class through the steps of their reporting, everything we had done along the way.

They talked about all the people we interviewed.

The head of sales and marketing at FML US.

They broke down all the complicated conclusions we had drawn.

But she also mentioned a very important point, which was that what's inside the packaging matters much more than the packaging itself.

And of course, they shared their marketing advice for La Fermiere.

I feel like they're kind of missing the point in a way because they're really advertising the sustainability aspect of their pots when really they should be doing the same thing but for the yogurt. Because we just, not proved, but we're able to question the fact that clay pots are not maybe sustainable. But we all know that locally produced food, which is what they do, is good for the environment.

So if they wanted to kind of pitch this climate aspect of it, they should probably focus on the yogurt.

And with that, homework assignment complete. The stupid little yogurt question was officially done. Chapter 8 Graduation. So I should say, as sometimes happens on the show, months passed while we slowly worked on the story. And months in the life of an adult, not such a big deal. But for these teenagers, it meant that we would meet up occasionally as their life was speeding up pretty quickly.

And David, I should say at this point, avid podcast listener, maybe a bit of a podcast producer at heart. And so with a bit of a flair for the dramatic, he begins to recreate the question that brought us here.

In this case, towards graduation and the life that followed after. Romi did end up finishing her big research project on morphine addiction. She's about to head to the Lund School of Economics in the fall. Anouk's finishing up high school in Paris and is going to head to a French university in the fall.

But the last time we got together in person in New York, I brought in a couple pots of La Fermiere for them to taste.

I mean, orange blossom. Does that mean orange? I think there's a kind of honey that's orange blossom. Oh, shit. Yeah, there's no orange on it.

Yeah, so we just opened the yogurt. There is indeed yogurt in there.

This was the final step in the investigation. You guys have anything else to say about yogurt?

Nope, just enjoy it. Pretty good. Yeah, it's actually it's good.

It's good.

I agree.

I don't know. I want it to be more like not like completely convincing. I don't want to be convinced by it, but it's not amazing. Like this texture is amazing.

The students start giggling here because David has very theatrically revealed a pot of yogurt.

La fermière yogurt.

La Fermiere is a small artisan French yogurt brand. Do you know this brand?

I noticed this brand a little bit. You'll see them. Yeah. So La Fermiere yogurt stands out from the other brands in the grocery store because instead of the plastic packaging, you typically see yogurt come in. La Fermiere comes in these cutely colored, often lavender clay pots. It's a premium yogurt, definitely more expensive than your Chobanis and your Yoplas.

They have like premium sounding flavors, rose, lavender, orange blossom honey. Mm-hmm.

David asks his students for theories, like, why would this one company choose to use clay pots when pretty much no other company does?

Is it good for the environment? Mm-hmm. Anouk?

So is it cheaper to produce than plastic pots?

We could contact the brand to see if they had any specific reasons when they first produced the yogurt.

It's weird seeing this teacher do the thing that we do in pitch meetings, which is just to start to wonder at the possible explanations for these strange questions we encounter. Yes.

Just go on their website and see if they have anything about it.

So David wraps up the class discussion, and he pulls me and Truthy aside. He had told us earlier that he'd chosen two students for this yogurt question to try to figure out why, like why La Fermiere was using clay pots for their yogurt.

I don't know if that's good luck or bad luck, but thank you all the same.

Chapter two, the students. Okay, for the record, can I just get you to say your name?

Romy and Anouk, both 11th graders at the school.

Right, and which in French is what it's called?

I'd get to know Romy and Anouk much better in the many months that would follow. Romy, I would learn, grew up in New York. She's one of those teenagers who almost seems like a fully-formed professional somehow.

Yes. Anouk's family is from France, and she's a more laid-back type. Like, she seemed to have the kind of curiosity that chases all sorts of things, just not necessarily the stuff that shows up on a syllabus.

And of course, anytime we're trying to help somebody answer a question, one thing we want to know is, why do they specifically care about it? Well, first of all, do you guys eat yogurt?

And what about La Fermiere?

No, I don't really eat La Famille yogurt, except when I want yogurt at school because it's the one they sell, but usually not.

And what do you usually eat?

Trader Joe's Greek yogurt. Very good. Recommend.

So Romy and Anouk, a little more blasé about La Fermiere than their teacher. Okay. Enough so that Shruti and I are beginning to wonder, like, are these two student investigators even interested in this question? Like, is this something they're excited about? Or is this just a homework assignment?

both of them sort of say immediately, it was your question, David, not our question. And then David replies in what I can only describe as fluent teacher.

I will admit, PJ, in this moment, my faith in this Yoker question was getting kind of low.

I was, like, more with the students here in their seeming ambivalence than I was with their teacher. But also, it turned out I was underestimating him because by the time this was all over, this question would become interesting.

Yeah, not in a pedagogical, demonstrative, educationally effective way, like, properly interesting.

But on that day, we all just sort of dutifully get into the elevator. We're heading to the school cafeteria, which is the first stop in our investigation. And on our way there, I started talking to Anouk about her relationship to dairy products back when she was growing up in France.

So I would say just consuming milk and milk-based products is something that's very advertised in France. For example, in my childhood TV show and everything, they would say at every ad break, oh, you have to consume five vegetables a day, also three different milk-based products a day.

So it's definitely a big part of, especially children's lives, because there's this thing of you're going to grow taller if you eat yogurt and all of that.

I didn't really think about this at the time when I first showed up to the Lycée, but one of the reasons this question was coming from this place is just that French people are extraordinarily precious about their dairy products. Oh, right. They like cheese. And just food in general. They take the quality and craft of food far more seriously than we do.

It felt unintuitive for me as a kid who grew up on easy cheese and country crock. I know you don't like yogurt, But if you've ever had like a fancy cheese or a traditional French butter and then gone back to like the mass-produced American versions.

And they just eat way more of it than we do too. Like the average French person eats something like 60 pounds of cheese and 45 pounds of yogurt every year. Wait, sorry, what?

But back at the school, our little yogurt investigation squad walked into the cafeteria. Classic high school lunchroom with those long tables with the little attached stools, food serving stations in the back. The cafeteria is empty at this point, except for two adults who were seated at this one table. Surprise table.

We were here to talk to the head of the cafeteria about La Fermiere. He was one of the people responsible for stocking this specific yogurt in the lunchroom. He was another adult, like the teacher, who seemed enchanted by this brand. And so Romy, one of the students, asks... So how popular is this yogurt?

Mark didn't have much of an answer here beyond what the company was already saying on its website. That clay, sometimes they'll say terracotta or ceramic, basically the same thing. But saying it's a premium material with all kinds of reusable. and sustainability benefits. It's really, you can do a lot of things with a clay pot. And honestly, we're all just kind of sitting there and nodding along.

Romy and Anouk, I wouldn't say they're like actively engaged at this point. We're still inside the school building. Their teacher's still hovering close by. They're a little reserved. But after the cafeteria, the next stop on our investigation list was just the local cafe next to the school, a spot with what I thought was a slightly over-the-top French name.

Okay, so we're just outside of school right now, and we're going to go in a cafe called Chez les Frenchies, which is right next to the school, literally next door.

How often do you come here?

It smells like France in here.

PJ, I should tell you something. I know you have teenagers in your life. I don't really like to reveal a prejudice of mine. Like high school students kind of make me nervous.

Yeah, like I have Gen Z friends. I've had Gen Z colleagues. But when you start getting to the younger parts of the generation or like... whatever we're calling the next generation, Gen Alpha. I don't know. I don't know how to hang. I don't know the lingo.

100%.

100%.

Hi, Dr. John.

Hi, Dr. John.

Oh, it's going. I'm a first 11 listeners of your show. Yes!

Oh, it's going. I'm a first 11 listeners of your show. Yes!

For sure. I love your show. You're a saint. Thank you. Yes, thank you.

For sure. I love your show. You're a saint. Thank you. Yes, thank you.

Well, I'm a great listener, but I don't know if I'm such a great participant.

Well, I'm a great listener, but I don't know if I'm such a great participant.

Yeah, so I'm going to start by saying that jealousy is a thief of joy. Okay. And, well... This woman that is my husband's ex-wife, she is very in the center of everything. And even still in the family that I'm married into. And I get it. We have two children together. Um, which are grown now and we're very close to actually the kids and I are like her, his adult children are still very close.

Yeah, so I'm going to start by saying that jealousy is a thief of joy. Okay. And, well... This woman that is my husband's ex-wife, she is very in the center of everything. And even still in the family that I'm married into. And I get it. We have two children together. Um, which are grown now and we're very close to actually the kids and I are like her, his adult children are still very close.

Like we're very close to each other. And so that's not a problem at all. My husband's completely like, I'm not interested in this woman. Like you must know this. So, and I believe it. Like it's, it's me, it's me and this woman. I don't know. What on earth it is. Like I'm obsessively always looking at her Facebook and see if she posted anything new, whether it's Instagram or whatever.

Like we're very close to each other. And so that's not a problem at all. My husband's completely like, I'm not interested in this woman. Like you must know this. So, and I believe it. Like it's, it's me, it's me and this woman. I don't know. What on earth it is. Like I'm obsessively always looking at her Facebook and see if she posted anything new, whether it's Instagram or whatever.

And it's just, it feels ridiculous on my part. And I just wanted to see if there's anything I can do to stop these intrusive thoughts of hers.

And it's just, it feels ridiculous on my part. And I just wanted to see if there's anything I can do to stop these intrusive thoughts of hers.

Yeah, and she's always the epicenter of everything. Okay, what does that mean?

Yeah, and she's always the epicenter of everything. Okay, what does that mean?

Maybe, because if anything happens in the family, she has to message my husband, even though he doesn't like that, or he doesn't really answer her, or he'll just give a really short yes or no.

Maybe, because if anything happens in the family, she has to message my husband, even though he doesn't like that, or he doesn't really answer her, or he'll just give a really short yes or no.

I know.

I know.

Yeah. I don't know, John.

Yeah. I don't know, John.

That's insane.

That's insane.

Yeah, yeah, please.

Yeah, yeah, please.

Her life, her good life.

Her life, her good life.

Yeah, but we work hard every day. Not that we just make ends meet, but we're grinding the grind every day. What makes you think she's not? She goes to the Bahamas for four months in the winter. Then they have this marina up north in this coveted place in Canada. She just seems like she's you know, riding the gravy train. But I mean, you're right.

Yeah, but we work hard every day. Not that we just make ends meet, but we're grinding the grind every day. What makes you think she's not? She goes to the Bahamas for four months in the winter. Then they have this marina up north in this coveted place in Canada. She just seems like she's you know, riding the gravy train. But I mean, you're right.

I don't know for sure if everything is so gravy or if it just looks that way. Right.

I don't know for sure if everything is so gravy or if it just looks that way. Right.

Right.

Right.

Right. Right.

Right. Right.

Never.

Never.

No.

No.

Maybe that could be, John. Oh, God, I don't want to put more things in your head.

Maybe that could be, John. Oh, God, I don't want to put more things in your head.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

Right.

That perfect, you know, going away for four months. Because I'm like, I love the South and I love the beach. And it's like, she's going there for four months. I can't even go there for a week.

That perfect, you know, going away for four months. Because I'm like, I love the South and I love the beach. And it's like, she's going there for four months. I can't even go there for a week.

Yeah. Why? I know we've had a few knocks. Also in our life, but... No, no, no, no, no.

Yeah. Why? I know we've had a few knocks. Also in our life, but... No, no, no, no, no.

Yeah. Yeah, I would say that's mostly it. Financial obligations.

Yeah. Yeah, I would say that's mostly it. Financial obligations.

We've got a house and mortgage and... We have this line of credit we've got to pay down, which takes precedence over anything else. What is the line of credit for? I inherited some money from my mom when she passed a couple of years ago, but she got married again. And unbeknownst to us and my mom, her husband had claimed to this money, which we have already taken.

We've got a house and mortgage and... We have this line of credit we've got to pay down, which takes precedence over anything else. What is the line of credit for? I inherited some money from my mom when she passed a couple of years ago, but she got married again. And unbeknownst to us and my mom, her husband had claimed to this money, which we have already taken.

used up on our house renovations and things like that. And then they went to court and we were on the hook for everything to pay this man back.

used up on our house renovations and things like that. And then they went to court and we were on the hook for everything to pay this man back.

Yeah, but she left him. She left him to be with me and to take care of her until she dies. She wasn't happy.

Yeah, but she left him. She left him to be with me and to take care of her until she dies. She wasn't happy.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

No, she was already passed at that point.

No, she was already passed at that point.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, my mom passed away.

Yeah, my mom passed away.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

Right.

Yeah. And Canada law was like, yeah, he has a claim to it. To all of it? Yeah. It was 80%. But I had to pay all these lawyer fees too. So we were like really not in good shape. That's wild. Yeah. Yeah. So that really set us back. Yeah. Through my husband in a whirlwind of.

Yeah. And Canada law was like, yeah, he has a claim to it. To all of it? Yeah. It was 80%. But I had to pay all these lawyer fees too. So we were like really not in good shape. That's wild. Yeah. Yeah. So that really set us back. Yeah. Through my husband in a whirlwind of.

It was altogether 120,000. Wow. I'm sorry that happened.

It was altogether 120,000. Wow. I'm sorry that happened.

I know.

I know.

Yeah. I mean, we should have been more proactive and revisited the will after she married this person, right? But we thought that because she made it out solely me, it's like, okay, it's ironclad, stamp on it, everything's good. So, you know, it was ignorance on our part, really. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, we should have been more proactive and revisited the will after she married this person, right? But we thought that because she made it out solely me, it's like, okay, it's ironclad, stamp on it, everything's good. So, you know, it was ignorance on our part, really. Yeah.

So what do y'all do for a living? Well, I'm an over-the-road driver, and so is my husband, so we don't see each other all week. Okay. So we drive, drive.

So what do y'all do for a living? Well, I'm an over-the-road driver, and so is my husband, so we don't see each other all week. Okay. So we drive, drive.

You know, I used to love it. I'm starting to kind of feel... Maybe not as happy about it. And maybe that is part of the part that's doing this whole thing with this woman, the ex. She has that great life and I'm sitting here.

You know, I used to love it. I'm starting to kind of feel... Maybe not as happy about it. And maybe that is part of the part that's doing this whole thing with this woman, the ex. She has that great life and I'm sitting here.

58.

58.

Right, exactly.

Right, exactly.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. I know, and that's a great plan. And I said to my husband, let's just downsize. We don't need this big house. I know we have four kids between the two of us.

Yeah. I know, and that's a great plan. And I said to my husband, let's just downsize. We don't need this big house. I know we have four kids between the two of us.

They're adults. Yeah, they're adults. They come over for a weekend. Yeah. But we don't need all that room. We can make do with something smaller.

They're adults. Yeah, they're adults. They come over for a weekend. Yeah. But we don't need all that room. We can make do with something smaller.

You mean like if we sold it?

You mean like if we sold it?

Probably about $500,000.

Probably about $500,000.

Right. Exactly. But I would, you know, jump on that, John. I would.

Right. Exactly. But I would, you know, jump on that, John. I would.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Right.

Exactly.

Exactly.

I promise I'm going to do what you ask.

I promise I'm going to do what you ask.

Okay.

Okay.

100%.

Hi, Dr. John.

Oh, it's going. I'm a first 11 listeners of your show. Yes!

For sure. I love your show. You're a saint. Thank you. Yes, thank you.

Well, I'm a great listener, but I don't know if I'm such a great participant.

Yeah, so I'm going to start by saying that jealousy is a thief of joy. Okay. And, well... This woman that is my husband's ex-wife, she is very in the center of everything. And even still in the family that I'm married into. And I get it. We have two children together. Um, which are grown now and we're very close to actually the kids and I are like her, his adult children are still very close.

Like we're very close to each other. And so that's not a problem at all. My husband's completely like, I'm not interested in this woman. Like you must know this. So, and I believe it. Like it's, it's me, it's me and this woman. I don't know. What on earth it is. Like I'm obsessively always looking at her Facebook and see if she posted anything new, whether it's Instagram or whatever.

And it's just, it feels ridiculous on my part. And I just wanted to see if there's anything I can do to stop these intrusive thoughts of hers.

Yeah, and she's always the epicenter of everything. Okay, what does that mean?

Maybe, because if anything happens in the family, she has to message my husband, even though he doesn't like that, or he doesn't really answer her, or he'll just give a really short yes or no.

I know.

Yeah. I don't know, John.

That's insane.

Yeah, yeah, please.

Her life, her good life.

Yeah, but we work hard every day. Not that we just make ends meet, but we're grinding the grind every day. What makes you think she's not? She goes to the Bahamas for four months in the winter. Then they have this marina up north in this coveted place in Canada. She just seems like she's you know, riding the gravy train. But I mean, you're right.

I don't know for sure if everything is so gravy or if it just looks that way. Right.

Right.

Right. Right.

Never.