Robin Givhan

You know, it's kind of a combination of happenstance and a little bit of intent.

I mean, I never really thought that I would be someone who was writing about fashion.

I sort of fell into that as a young journalist who just wanted a beat that I could call my own.

And that sort of happened to be the one that opened up.

And I thought, I wore clothes.

This sounds interesting.

Maybe I'll explore this.

And I started thinking about fashion sort of outside of the bubble that is the fashion industry, in part because I was someone who was coming to the subject not as a fan, but as someone who was just sort of curious about it.

Having spent so much of my career at the Washington Post,

In Washington, politics and identity and power and sort of the struggle for power and respect, and you can't sort of help but think about that, regardless of what subject you're covering.

Yeah, I mean, the thing about fashion is that, you know, it is...

It's inherently an interesting industry, right?

Because it's full of sort of creative people who are trying to also navigate a global business.

But it's also extraordinarily intimate because no matter who we are, we can't really opt out of it, right?

I mean, unless we sort of dedicate ourselves to a nudist colony, we all have to sort of think about what we're going to put on in the morning.

And I find that even people who have this sort of attitude of I am beyond fashion or I don't engage with fashion, they're still in some way reacting to this sort of outsized importance or impact that fashion has and how we perceive people.

And so when people start talking about

you know, identity and, you know, and saying that it's not something that we should focus on.

To me, that says you've never been in the position of having your identity questioned or having your identity judged.

or having your identity devalued.

You've had this incredible luxury of being able to move through a world in which your identity is sort of the de facto norm.

It's the identity against which everything else is measured or defined.

And if that's the case, I say, lucky you,

But I don't think that that means that we should sort of neglect to consider how other people have had to essentially fight to have their identity understood.

Wow, that's, thank you, Stacey, for that really mouth, like, giant question.

I mean, I will start by sort of focusing on like a very sort of traditional fashion element, right?

Which is the cover, the cover shot, right?

Of any magazine or who gets to open a fashion show or close a fashion show on the runway.

I mean, these are sort of the high points for a model, if you will, in their career.

And, you know, for a long time, the industry has grappled with, continues to grapple with diversity within the fashion industry and within the ranks of models.

And a lot of times, you know, I think people sort of wonder, well, you know, like, what's the big deal about, like, which industry?

teenager gets to be on the cover of a magazine or, you know, who cares who's closing a fashion show.

But I always sort of remind people that, you know, fashion is this way that we communicate with

our understanding of beauty, our understanding of gender, our understanding of what sort of femininity means or what masculinity means.

And in many ways, fashion teaches us the kind of people who have value and the kind of people who are worth celebrating and worth elevating.

and worth aspiring to be like or, you know, emulating.

And those are really powerful lessons.

And, you know, and fashion does it in ways that are quite, that sometimes are quite obvious and sometimes are quite sneaky.

And I think it's important that we understand that fashion is kind of sneaking in these

really potent messages that have a real ripple effect throughout the culture.

And I also think about

You know, those images, those incredible images from the civil rights era during the protests.

And you see these people.

I was so struck by images from the March on Washington.

They're all there in August.

Martin Luther King, you know, is like making his speech.

They're there around the reflecting pool.

And I remember once I looked up the weather for that day for a story that I was writing.

Because this was in August in Washington.

And it was hot.

And I was just looking at the way that people were dressed.

And a lot of it certainly had to do with just sort of the styles of the moment.

But they were also just dressed in this way that evoked such care and such...

and to use an overused word, intentionality.

And it just really spoke to the importance that they conferred on the moment, the importance of the way that they carried themselves in delivering their message.

I think today people would sort of lump it into, you know, quote-unquote respectability politics.

But at the time, it was not...

It was about gaining respect, but it was also about sort of announcing how much respect people have for themselves.

And I think that's a really, again, a powerful message that fashion can send.

You know, I think about, you know, during the summer of the Black Lives Matter protests surrounding George Floyd's murder.

And I remember there was a group of, I think it was all men, I might be wrong about that, who were in New York, who made this point of getting dressed up.

when they were out there raising their voices.

And when I say getting dressed up, I mean, it was like...

you know, those images from the 60s had been sort of dipped in technicolor.

And they were, some of them were in suits, some of them were in ties, jackets.

I mean, they just looked incredible.

And their whole point was, you know, in sort of bringing a kind of dignity and importance

to what they were doing.

And not to say that you can't be in, you know, t-shirts, sneakers, shorts, whatever, and still be delivering a really important message.

But I think, you know, as you said, there are reasons why, you know, there are still these handful of occasions in which we really, when we fret about what we're going to wear,

and whether or not what we're wearing is appropriate or is respectful or perhaps celebratory enough.

And I think about it at weddings and at funerals.

We think about what we're wearing.

And those are occasions that still sort of carry this

importance and an emotional weight to them.

And there are these moments that, you know, we are going... that we know that we're going to remember.

They're going to be sort of written into the family history book.

And I don't know.

I mean, sometimes I wonder...

if other moments still had that sort of capacity to inspire kind of thoughtful dressing, that act of thoughtful dressing just sort of allows people to take a moment and really sort of think about the occasion that they're dressing for, whether it be a protest, whether it be

you know, the first time that, you know, someone is going into the voting booth.

Well, I think it's fascinating to me that he had such an acute understanding of the way in which visuals can deliver a message without ever having to open your mouth.

I mean, he certainly is someone who, I mean, he has this entertainer's background.

And his choice to not wear a suit, to wear this kind of almost workman sort of military garb, I think one certainly sends a message of,

connection to the citizens of Ukraine, I think it underscores the role that he was forced into having as this wartime president.

And I think it was also kind of a

a rebuke to an administration that would like to sort of proceed sort of business as usual, that would like to sort of remove the stature that he has from having to deal with, grapple with, overcome, you know, these sort of terrible, these terrible circumstances.

And, you know, I think it was also a way of setting him apart and saying,

I'm not just, quote unquote, another politician.

This is not politics, even if he obviously is having to engage in politics.

And the fact that that was called out as a kind of insult to the occupant of the Oval Office, I think underscores

the degree to which appearances matter to the current president of the US in a way that is very different.

I think that, you know, Zelensky's choice is about allowing his substance to come through in his attire.

And the reverse, I think, can also be true in which you allow the attire

to substitute for substance.

You know, I have been, I'm always, I've always been sort of fascinated by the fact that, you know, much of, much of what he wears is certainly pricey, expensive.

and yet doesn't necessarily look so.

I mean, there's this sort of understanding that you think, oh, if you spend a lot of money on something, then it's going to sort of fit you perfectly, and it's going to just sort of scream sort of quality and prestige.

And, you know, that's not necessarily the case.

I mean, it's the old adage that

money doesn't buy you taste.

Yes, the gilding, all of that.

In many ways, it reminds me of, and not to malign

teenager or an elementary school person.

But it sort of reminds me of what someone sort of imagines a wealthy person's home looks like or what it means to dress expensively.

It's a very kind of basic, unsophisticated take on it.

And it is one that is much more attuned to

You know, sort of the bright, shiny object as opposed to any sort of thoughtful consideration of what it is that is particularly expressive of who you are.

And, you know, I remember that.

many, many, many years ago interviewing Donald Trump.

And one of the things that he talked about was how often his name was mentioned by a certain generation of rappers.

And, you know, I declined to like fact check that because I'm not going to go through the entire oeuvre of like 1990s rap to see if that's true.

But, you know, I do think that it seemed plausible only because his style represented this kind of sort of throw money at it wealth.

And I think his style sort of reflects that kind of

Well, I mean, I don't know that I have enough skill to say whether or not something is, you know, fascist or reflective of that or not.

I mean, I do think that we see elements of fashion being used as a way of underscoring a kind of pure or acceptable...

version of femininity, masculinity, patriotism, nationalism.

I mean, I think that when you look at the way that both the men and the women of the current administration comport themselves, you certainly see a

that there's no place for ambiguity.

There's no place for sort of a gray zone, a middle ground.

You know, there's a very particular way of presenting femininity, and there's a very particular way of presenting masculinity.

And in some ways, it's so prescribed that it doesn't allow for diversity because it's so strict that if you don't have or are unwilling to create the sort of, you know,

I don't want to malign an entire state, so I won't call them Utah curls, but that's the sort of long barrel curled hair, you know, that has become sort of one of the defining definitions of how a woman looks in this sort of universe.

And, you know, it seems very petty, but at the same time, when it's so...

narrow in that way it doesn't leave room for like very many kinds of people to participate to have a say to be deemed competent if those are the the definitions of competency in many ways like the you know the i think we expect there to be some kind of you know strange or

distinctive kind of uniform or way of dressing.

But what is perhaps the most disconcerting is that the most banal kinds of attire have been worn and used.

I mean, whether or not it's, you know, the khakis and polo shirts from, you know, the Charlottesville march or, you know, it's

bunch of guys dressed up like they belong to a fraternity.

And those are the things that are sort of markers of the far right.

And I think if we look for something that seems jarring or sort of

Well, you know, I think for some of the designers, certainly, particularly around the time of inauguration,

were trying to kind of separate the person from the institution.

The particular administration from this sort of historical American moment.

Now, I don't know that that's possible.

But, you know, I think at that point, there was definitely a sense of...

trying to be nonpartisan.

I don't know that if choosing nonpartisanship under those circumstances is a choice that will ultimately sit well with history.

I think that the fashion industry is like

any other in that it is a business that is trying to look out for its bottom line.

I mean, I will say that certainly the world of luxury fashion under the corporate ownership of LVMH

is of particular interest because, you know, that is a conglomerate that is controlled by Bernard Arnault.

And that is someone who has a very, I would say, publicly comfortable relationship with this administration.

I mean, I don't know what goes on behind closed doors, but, you know, that is certainly...

All signs point to that.

Certainly the first time around, the first term, Mr. Arnault went to Trump Tower and met with the incoming president.

And then later on, opened a Louis Vuitton factory in Texas, and the president and

members of his team came to you know cut the ribbon i will say that they were rather quiet or as quiet as they could be within the fashion industry about the president coming to open that factory uh and did not exactly shout it at the top of their lungs um

But, you know, so there's that business aspect of it that exists.

And then to some degree, I think, and it seems to me that this is in many ways kind of been the case for a lot of people.

I feel like there's almost a kind of outrage exhaustion to some degree that for some people,

it was, they just couldn't stay at sort of high outrage.

I mean, certainly there is the issue of the tariffs and the way that that's affecting, you know, the fashion industry, but there still are, I would say a lot of designers or some designers who are being very pointed in their critique, their criticism of the administration and,

And one that immediately comes to mind is Willy Chavarria, who is of Mexican-American descent, a beautiful, beautiful designer focused mostly on menswear.

And he showed his very first collection in Paris and took that opportunity to open with the Song Hotel California in English and also in Spanish.

And the first handful of guys down that runway were, you know, brown skin men with, you know, close cropped hair wearing white T-shirts and shorts.

And they came out and they, you know, knelt in formation sort of mimicking what had been happening with detainees.

who had been sent to the prison in El Salvador.

And then that was followed with a beautiful collection that really celebrated that convergence of Mexican heritage and American and Southern California and all the things that make Willy such an interesting and wonderful and unique designer.

And so I think that was one way

That one designer, you know, was speaking his mind.

But certainly there are others that are, you know, based in Europe for sure that are happy to dress the First Lady and the family.

Well, you know, I think one of the reasons that fashion gets under people's skin, so to speak, is because it really does get at the core of how we want the world to see us and how the world wants us to be seen.

And often those two things can be terribly in conflict.

I mean, I think about, you know, the...

incredible amounts of attention and hysteria over drag queens.

And I mean, it comes down to the fact that, you know, people wanting to control how others move through, identify themselves, move through the culture, move through society.

And, you know, it's, it's

It leaves me basically speechless in many ways.

But, I mean, I do think that the industry is at its best when it is being incredibly... When it's being artful and using...

the creativity that designers have to tell us a story, to allow us to see beauty where we didn't necessarily know we would find it, or to highlight something that perhaps we see all the time, but never gave it really a second glance.

And I think fashion can be really

powerful when it challenges our ideas about gender roles and who holds the power and what power looks like in a particular circumstance.

Well, you know,

I think when you look at the pictures of people with political clout in the United States, that wall is overwhelmingly dominated by men and by white men, and they're all wearing suits.

And if nothing else, those images have sort of taught us that the white guy in the room wearing the suit is probably the one in charge.

And that has really taught us, given us this sort of baseline idea of what power looks like.

And we are obviously in a very visual culture.

And I think what is challenging or has been challenging for women is that there wasn't a template, right?

The most...

unqualified guy can put on a dark suit and a red or blue tie, and he sort of looks like he's dressed for the part of power, right?

And with women, there hasn't been this sort of easy template.

Put this on, and it automatically sort of puts you into this sort of cliche power position.

And, you know, I sort of half-jokingly said that, you know, Hillary Clinton wore, you know, a million pantsuits in pink, yellow, marigold, and cantaloupe so Kamala Harris could wear, you know, a gray pantsuit and have it not be a big deal.

I mean, I think, you know, it took...

Hillary Clinton sort of creating, helping to create this template.

And it is very narrow.

And it is really challenging when you're a woman who doesn't necessarily sort of feel comfortable in that template, don't feel like it flatters you, or you just don't want to do it.

And then it becomes this matter of trying to figure out, okay, what is going to convey my power?

What is going to convey sort of gravitas and that crazy chemistry, right?

It has to be that mix of gravitas and approachability and authority, but also not too tough, but not too sweet.

And so it was just, it's always interesting to me

to see how women who are in positions of authority and who are, you know, moving on to like the next step on that ladder, to see how they define power with a feminine voice.

And, you know, I...

some certainly have gotten backlash from people who are like oh like why are you writing about women and what they're wearing and my argument is like i think we should be writing more about what men are wearing um because it also says a lot about you know who they are in perhaps in more subtle ways and um you know in the past as i've also said that i feel like women have um

you know, can use fashion in ways that are really helpful to communicating to the public.

But, you know, when I was just sort of watching as you, you know, were running, and I still remember that beautiful blue dress, I just thought that you had sort of found this way of

sort of evoking a sense of individuality, but also authority and modernity, which was really sort of another way of saying, you know, this is the future for progress, progressivism.

And I wanted to talk about that because it is something that I think is really important in our understanding of who gets to be in charge.

And it's important that we get used to

a female vernacular of power so that it becomes as familiar and as standard as the male vernacular.

Well, two things occur to me from the book.

And one is actually something that I address in the acknowledgements.

But one of the big lessons that I took from the reporting was the importance of something very simple, and it sounds really Pollyanna-ish, but it was about optimism.

And Virgil Abloh was a really optimistic guy.

And, you know, at one point during an interview, and we were actually talking about diversity within the fashion industry and whether or not the industry could change and grow and all of those, all the good things.

And he said, I'm an optimist.

I choose optimism.

I choose to believe that...

You know, people can change and things can be better.

And I feel like it's such a simple yet powerful lesson because it can be so difficult to be optimistic, to maintain your optimism.

And, you know, he did it not being naive, not...

you know, being unable to see the hurdles, not being able to see the darkness.

But he simply said, I choose to be optimistic.

I choose to believe that the next day can be better.

I choose to believe that I can be better, that other people can be better.

And the other thing was after he got the job at Vuitton.

People were surprised because he didn't have the traditional background.

And I was surprised, certainly.

And, you know, he was thrilled and he said, you know, I don't know why everyone is so surprised.

I mean, I was designing a collection.

I, you know, was getting better at my craft.

So why not me?

And I thought that response was indicative of his own sense of confidence.

It was a challenge to the people who didn't think that he could do it or that he was worthy.

And it was a kind of rebuke to those who sort of feel like,

well, because I haven't checked off this box, this box, and this box, that I can't do something.

Because the truth is, you might have checked off a bunch of other boxes that are just as important, but the industry or the culture is just not placing the same value on those boxes that you checked, even though perhaps they should.

And so I think that combination of sort of remembering to ask yourself, why not me?

When something needs to be solved, when a problem comes up, when there's a possibility, when there is a dream that seems impossible, to just say, you know, why not me?

And if you remember to be an optimist, you will continue to say, why not me?

And at some point, hopefully, optimistically, people will say, yeah, why not?

Oh, it's been such a pleasure.