Rob Mahoney

Appearances

Plain English with Derek Thompson

How Gen Z Sees the World

Also on Wednesdays, Rob Mahoney and I will be sort of diving deep into theories and listener questions. So you can watch that on the Ringer YouTube channel and also on the Spotify app.

Plain English with Derek Thompson

How AI Could Change the Future of Music

Also on Wednesdays, Rob Mahoney and I will be sort of diving deep into theories and listener questions. So you can watch that on the Ringer YouTube channel and also on the Spotify app.

Plain English with Derek Thompson

How AI Could Change the Future of Music

And then you let the AI keep massaging the melody, and this happens.

Plain English with Derek Thompson

How AI Could Change the Future of Music

Mark, what did we just hear?

Plain English with Derek Thompson

ABUNDANCE! With Ezra Klein

Also on Wednesdays, Rob Mahoney and I will be sort of diving deep into theories and listener questions. So you can watch that on the Ringer YouTube channel and also on the Spotify app.

Plain English with Derek Thompson

The End of Reading

Also on Wednesdays, Rob Mahoney and I will be sort of diving deep into theories and listener questions. So you can watch that on the Ringer YouTube channel and also on the Spotify app.

Plain English with Derek Thompson

Can a Vaccine Cure the World’s Deadliest Cancer?

Also on Wednesdays, Rob Mahoney and I will be sort of diving deep into theories and listener questions. So you can watch that on the Ringer YouTube channel and also on the Spotify app.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Vikings Get Rammed, Dallas’s Next Coach, and Bad NFL Owner Habits With Cousin Sal and Peter Schrager

Hey, buddy!

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Vikings Get Rammed, Dallas’s Next Coach, and Bad NFL Owner Habits With Cousin Sal and Peter Schrager

We'll see you next time.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Are we sure anymore that that's where they're going to end up? I think it's striking looking at the rest of the bubble teams, all teams that are making moves right now. The Spurs, the Warriors.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

I think they might be, just because they're a little further behind. Because they're too far behind? I mean, too far behind with two games back sounds insane, but it's more that there are too many teams in front of them.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

I think it might be the Suns. I think it is. I think it might be the Suns.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Who do they have second?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Sacramento to me is the clear second. I feel like that's a little bit of Zach Levine disrespect. Is it? I think the Malik Monk, Zach Levine, Sabonis thing is going to be pretty decent. They brought in Jonas Valanciunas, which is not nothing.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

I would say about the same. I want to put this out there, not because I want it to happen, but because I fear it could happen. If the Dallas Mavericks do not make the playoffs, as a son of Dallas, I would like to be able to go home again. And I fear that the city would be razed to the fucking ground.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Keeping Kuminga out of this thing, I'm still shocked. Keeping Kuminga was amazing.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Unless Kaminga is traded the next hour. Which he might be. But even preserving him to potentially include him in another deal is important. And I think the Jimmy Wiggins comp, like Andrew Wiggins has had a perfectly fine season. I don't mean to diminish it, but Jimmy is a totally different level of creator. And most importantly, he is a go-to scorer, as we've discussed, but also...

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

a point trigger man for a lot of the Steph Curry off-ball stuff in a way that Wiggins is just not comfortable doing. And so now you have another person who can do that in addition to Draymond, in addition to Pajemski, if you have him in that role. You have someone who can actually make some plays for the way Golden State wants to play.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

He does not. But it's also not a coincidence that like every star leaves Miami kind of feeling like this. You know, like by the end, it's always ugly. There's no peaceful transitions of power.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

I think it's if you're over any apron at all, first or second, you can't sign a buyout guy for the mid-level.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Basically, if your contract is just over the non-taxpayer full mid-level, which his is like by a hair, like just barely, then you can't sign with any apron team as a buyout guy.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

It feels like they basically just said we don't want Dennis Schroeder. We'd rather have cap space? But it's telling when a team like the Heat who, say what you will about their personality management, they're pretty good talent evaluators. And they have just decided thanks but no thanks on Dennis Schroeder.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

I'm always worried about Miami. I'm always worried about them. Never not worried about the Heat. So right now, the Heat are three games out of the fourth seed in the East. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is their new rotation. They got Tyler Hero and Terry Rozier more or less running point. Scary Terry. Duncan Robinson. They brought in Davion Mitchell from the Raptors.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

I've wanted to see him on a decent team.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Andrew Wiggins, of course. Haywood Highsmith. Jaime Jaquez. Bam's been playing the four with Kalel Ware. Nikola Jovic.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Been quite good.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

And Kyle Anderson. Tell me that is not the most Miami Heat-ass team you've ever heard. It's Kyle Anderson's one of the most Miami Heat guys ever.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

This segment is sponsored by FanDuel.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Do you have anybody else? I think the Bucs are still interesting enough. And I think the Magic, if they ever get their shit together, are still interesting enough. They've got a lot to figure out offensively, though.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Can we talk about that?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

What does the apology sound like these days?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Fair.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

I mean, it's hard to be that inefficient, that passive aggressive, and that much just straight chilling all the time. Like it's really a rare skill.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

I'm a DeAndre Hunter skeptic. I like players who will, on occasion, pass. DeAndre Hunter doesn't really do that. And now, he's granted, while not passing, had the best season of his career by far. Has scored and shot in a way that he never has before. That's all well and good. But when I'm imagining the Cleveland freewheeling offense...

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

I don't know.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

So I'll put this like this wouldn't be a problem if what the Bucs weren't giving up is a player who is very important to their team and Chris Middleton who just can't do it at that level that they need him to do anymore.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

But what they needed was somebody who could do some Chris Middleton adjacent things. And Kyle Kuzma is closer to Torian Prince than he is to healthy Chris Middleton. That's a big problem for a trade like this.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

No, and not in trading Chris in his current form, but that's the quandary that the Bucks found themselves in.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

He's been an occasional entity.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Rob, you get the tiebreaker vote. It's not going to go well. Yeah. He's Kyle Kuzma. Wow. Here's the thing. When you approach a trade of this magnitude, and this is a huge trade for the Bucs. They've been waiting to either trade Chris Middleton or Brooke Lopez for the right move that came along. This is not the right move.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

He's also their, I want to say, the elder statesman of their rotation right now.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

I don't think he's an Orlando Magic player personally, but... Does Orlando know they're allowed to make trades?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

I want somebody who's going to move the ball, who knows how to play and flow. And that's not really what DeAndre Hunter does to the point.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

They probably should be a little bit more desperate in terms of getting some offense together.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Super important to their team.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

This year it has been, right? Like he's actually been like a good soldier within that context. And I take your point, but I think he's actually done a pretty good job of that exact thing this year.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

And like, those are literal facts, though.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Sure, sure.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Yeah, my hands are tied. My hands are tied. What can a guy do?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

That's the thing. Ultimately, what you're describing is in some way the way the league has been for a long time. It was just they were mostly trying to dodge the tax. Now, even if you are above the tax, there are more lines to dodge and harsher penalties.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

You say this like you're not talking up Julian Strother in the group chat.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

I mean, love the pickup for them. It is a buy low thing. And we need to acknowledge that Bogey is having the worst season of maybe his entire professional life, including pre-NBA, just has not had it.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Almost everybody who went to the Olympics has been a little step slow this season. It's been a thing for sure. So I would love to see him recapture some parts of his game surrounding him with high, like high leverage defensive personnel with the Clippers.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

That's a team that is so desperate for shot making, depending on what's going on with Harden, how he's being pressured that night, where Kawhi is in terms of his health on a day to day basis. They need what Bogdanovich can provide. And so if this is the cost, absolutely. Why not? Can I read you his stats? I'm a little worried to even hear them.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

I feel okay being a bogey apologist.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Never really happened. Never really got off the ground.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Bones? What about him? He is a player in the NBA, that's for sure. He's a player that made a lot more sense 30 years ago.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

He was the truth.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

He thought he was better than Jamal Murray. Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

They're really gutting this thing. I guess, you know, it makes sense in the way that the future of their team is more Jalen Johnson, Zachary Richerche oriented, right? Like Richerche. I think there's something there that works. Do you have to do all of this housekeeping right now? I don't exactly know why it would need to happen right now.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

The spite piece. Yeah, you got to stick it to them.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Like you just never know.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

I genuinely don't. They're a team that wants to play a very loose, freewheeling, democratic style.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

That is not how Brandon Ingram plays basketball. If you did want a big forward to put next to Scottie Barnes, why did you trade the better one in Pascal Siakam? And the Siakam comparison is inevitable because they're giving up that Indiana pick. They're giving up Bruce Brown. They're giving up Kelly Olenek, who I want to say was involved tangentially in that deal in a follow-up with Utah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Caught half of it.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

And so now you traded Pascal Siakam for... an expiring Brandon Ingram. Oshaya Baji was in that deal. The pick that became Jacoby Walter. That's your Pascal Siakam haul. Why didn't you just keep Pascal Siakam if that's where you were going to end up?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Yeah. I think it'll probably be a shorter term deal.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

But are you telling like, I'm just seeing a future where they pay him upwards of $40 million a season. And to do what? He is a dynamic duo. I'm Scotty Barnes. He doesn't fit with Barnes. He's hurt all the time.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

He will occasionally talk himself into taking spot up threes.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Agbaje seems like he has a good head on his shoulders. He seems well-adjusted. He's having a good year.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

They have a lot to take personally, you know?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Shout out to our colleague Danny Chow who flagged, this is now four consecutive trade deadlines where the Raptors have traded a first for a guy who's about to be a free agent.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

I can't imagine. Doubtful.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

And he's got an extension. Two years, $20 million, which is a nice little turnaround for him.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

I think that's where you get into really tough places when you don't actually have the ideal version of the player anymore. And the Pelicans have not had the ideal version of Brandon Ingram for quite some time, mostly because of injury. But they held on to him too long in the same way that the Raptors held on to Siakam too long.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

You can see this chain of events of some of these teams that are feeling pinched where they don't move their guys when they need to move.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

What was it? I can't imagine a single reason why he might not want to run back that experience again. Probably a Draymond thing. I could imagine that being a potential holdup.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

No. I think him coming back to the Bay, if there ever was a full circle moment for that, it would require Kevin Durant to have a dramatic reimagining of who he is as a player and a person and the way he fits into the basketball universe. And I give Kevin Durant credit for this in a way. He has a very firm and fixed understanding of who he is.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

great guys get picked I also like Cleveland going for it a little bit you know pushing in in a way that there are certain non-negotiables on their roster like Darius Garland Jared Allen those guys are only going to play one position but otherwise you want a little lineup flexibility you want the ability to play you know Struis here or Dean Wade there or now DeAndre Hunter at the 3-4 like there's there's some options for Cleveland that I think are pretty appealing not just for a Celtics matchup but really just getting through the Eastern Conference alive

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

And it is not the guy who needs to go crawling back to the Warriors to win again. And that leads you to some places like Phoenix with this particular roster sometimes. But it didn't really fit with the KD that we know that he would want to do something like that.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

It felt like this could have been the first time in Kevin Durant's life where he didn't really get to pick. And maybe he just would have gotten moved somewhere. But then when he was so vocal and made it so clear he didn't want to play for Golden State, I think it changed the math a little bit.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Ultimately, I think the only way it would have worked for KD as a warrior again is if it was also a more elaborate LeBron going to Golden State thing. They would probably have to have... Just the old guys.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Well, I think you're probably bailed out on that just because the timelines were so different. Let's talk about these old guys some more.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Conspiracy Bill is here.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

In which direction? Like him towards Golden State?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Why not? They also ended up with, who did they get in the Butler deal? I want to say it was Lindy Waters and Josh Richardson, I want to say. Yeah, Josh Richardson. Maybe not players that have been important for them. Lindy Waters, I could see actually giving them some minutes and some stretch at times. I could see him giving them some decent minutes.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Do you think we should have third round picks? Should we have third round picks? Who are we drafting in the third round?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Do you think the Waz of 10 years ago would have made this take? Of course not. This is personal development.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Their part of it is the most confusing.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Another team that just like held on to Zach Levine for too long, waiting for the perfect deal to materialize. And it never did.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Better than this?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

They've made the playoffs one time in 20 years. 20 years. I get it. I get it. That's the thing. It's like, in theory, sure, from an asset standpoint, maybe there's an argument for a teardown. Sabonis has been probably a little too good, at least as a regular season player for that.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

This has been a big deadline for potentially dumb teams. I know we're not dipping too much into the Lakers part of this yet, but the Luka trade has made me feel young again. It is hearkening back to a time of our youth. where there just haven't been that many old-fashioned, absolute dog shit, like David Kahn-style trades.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

But the big man market has also dried up pretty fast on them.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

He's currently injured, I want to say. I think it's a Swiss thing.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

And Michael Malone was like quite definitive. Yeah, yeah. They're not going to trade Michael Porter.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

They are actually close. Like they feel like one even kind of minor role player addition could tick them up a couple percentage points in the title race.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Michael Jordan?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

But what a beautiful 23 games they were.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

When Jalen Johnson got hurt, they really have not been able to function without him.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

He might be day-to-day. He might be a minor.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

That would be the kick of the potential Kevin Durant trade would be that the Grizzlies spent all this time cultivating this very elaborate interwoven offense. And it's like, let's just get a ball to Kevin Durant.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Probably so.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

I mean, he is by far their most reliable creator this year. He's the only reason their defense has ever remotely worked, which it mostly does not. But he's the only thing kind of papering over most of their mistakes and the lack of ball pressure on the perimeter. There's a reason why when he's out, they look like a totally different team. They don't know how to work without him in Phoenix.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

I mean, this is a player over 25 for the Washington Wizards, which does not fit their timeline. Two adults. I guess that's true. They do have Chris Middleton now. What a weird roster. What a weird way for Marcus Smart's Grizzlies tenure to end. I can't believe that we got here.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Well, now that they have Marcus Smart, the Wizards have waived Reggie Jackson. Oh, Reggie. Shout out to Reggie Jackson's brief Wizards career.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Yeah, the one for 2025.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

I'm trying to figure out what Memphis is doing because the reporting from Shams around the Marcus Smart trade is that it's creating roster flexibility and Memphis just So there's some trade coming. Dumped Jake LaRavia who can actually play. Rotation guy. To the Sacramento Kings. Nice little pickup for them.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

They got LaRavia.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

So what are the Grizzlies going to do here?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

It won't be very exciting. Although, when the KD era in Phoenix appeared that it might be coming to a close, I was trying to reflect and say, okay, what have we done here? About two years as a Sun so far. Obviously hasn't had the playoff run this year. A 6-9 record in the playoffs with Phoenix. One playoff series win. Series win.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

But that's a team that they just dug themselves out of the absolute Nadira vibes in Sacramento. It got so weird and so bad for their season, and they finally get this momentum with Doug Christie. They finally have some things with their roster sorted out. I don't know that it's realistic to expect the Kings to just sit on a couple months of De'Aaron Fox pouting, if that's what it would have been.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

The meter is broken.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

This is a perverse take on the Julie Delpy before sunrise fake phone call.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

He's gone. He's gone. I think it is the signature hang-up. It's not just like, oh, could you trade him to Miami or whatnot. There would be a taker on the market.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Congratulations to them.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

I just have a very bad feeling we're going to look at the total math of that breaking up the one pick into three. And it's going to be three deals that are basically like this. Like basically use a first to dump Yusuf Nurkic's contract. To dump a dumb decision you made. Yeah, to try to rebate another bad decision. Yeah. The other ones, we'll see what happens.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Maybe they pull a rabbit out of their hat this summer. Maybe there's even time left for them to figure something out here. I just, I think that was a blunder in itself.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre

Who is the movie theater in this metaphor?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Luka Gets Traded to the Lakers… What??? | With Ryen Russillo and Rob Mahoney

For a lot of people in the U.S., using cannabis feels as normal as drinking a glass of wine or beer. But a dozen years after states started legalizing recreational cannabis, regulatory oversight is still a confusing patchwork. The drug is still illegal federally. And it's often difficult for consumers to distinguish between legal weed and cannabis produced by illegal growers and criminal gangs.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Luka Gets Traded to the Lakers… What??? | With Ryen Russillo and Rob Mahoney

Bo Kilmer studies marijuana markets for the Rand Corporation.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Luka Gets Traded to the Lakers… What??? | With Ryen Russillo and Rob Mahoney

Cannabis experts say they expect legal weed will eventually push out black market products. Brian Mann, NPR News.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

The Paul George thing is bordering on reanimated corpse at this point. And Jamal Murray has found some kind of life, some kind of burst. And I think most importantly, the edge and the aggressiveness in his game. That's always when Jamal is feeling whatever injuries he has at a given point or just a shaken confidence. He doesn't push in the way that the Nuggets absolutely need him to push.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

And to see that version of Jamal Murray back, that's a thrilling thing to see.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

I think this might be the 10, and that is somewhat confidence in the Kings, more so pessimism in the Suns on my part. Okay.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

I mean, mild confidence. I think they've got some stuff to work with. Like, I think they have a reasonable play-in level roster as currently constructed. I agree.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

And there's nothing wrong with that, but there's a reason we're not going to be talking about them in the vein that we're talking about Golden State, which is to say an actual threat potentially to do something with the talent that they have. And we were talking about this on group chat today, too.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

I don't know if it's the Jimmy Butler element specifically that makes Golden State feel like a wildcard in the same way that his Heat teams felt like a little bit of a wildcard. It's just hard to write off. And it's hard to write off looking at this Golden State rotation and thinking, OK, you know what, like when it really matters, the Pat Spencer minutes are going to evaporate.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

And the post minutes are going to evaporate if they have to. Like they're going to get what they need out of these supporting guys, but their best players are going to go the distance. And the question at that point will be how how hard did Steph and Draymond and Jimmy have to push to get them into the play in or to get them into the playoff? And will they have enough left from that point?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Nut crunch, I think is the expression you look for. Did I just invent the phrase gut crunch? The old gut crunch.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

The answer is probably J-Dub and that's a reasonable answer, but he also doesn't exactly play that way all the time. Like they are such a process oriented team where they're just going to move it and go through their system and trust in the shots that they get. And I think reasonable people can disagree as to whether those shots are ultimately what you need in now TM gut crunching time.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

I think gut crunch. Look, they clearly need a little bit more as evidenced by the fact that they can occasionally put up like a 14.4th quarter like they did against Minnesota today.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

that's not gonna do it even in a game like this where you have a bit of a deficit you're working back from to begin with it's an area where you hope over time j-dub grows into that responsibility chet holmgren who i think played his third game since come back from injury tonight he will grow into that responsibility over time hopefully he looks quite rusty understandably right now so he's gonna get better and better over the back part of the season but that's the wild card with them and i think if they don't do as well in the playoffs as they would have liked or as many of us would have anticipated

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

A lot of us are going to be wondering, was there a lever to pull there in terms of getting more of a spark plug score at the deadline? Not someone who has to be a part of your permanent like a fixture in Oklahoma City, a pillar of the community. But could you not get a guy who could get a bucket on demand when you maybe really needed it?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

He was balling out. He was scoring in bunches.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

I told you. But you're right. It's hard to look at a roster winning 80% of its games and being like, yeah, you should have done something. They're doing a lot every night to beat basically every opponent put in front of them.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

I would think. And look, the win over Golden State yesterday, massive, massive game. in terms of playing implications. But yeah, they need Davis back. And more importantly, they just need a big, a single able-bodied big who is not Omax Prosper on stilts. Like they just need somebody in that spot to do big man things. And credit to them for getting by the way they have.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Credit to them for winning tonight, not only under the circumstances, missing all these bigs, missing Anthony Davis, but Kyrie didn't play in this game either. But his spirit lived on in Dante Exum and they beat the Heat. And Dallas just kind of keeps on marching right now. It's been very impressive to see the way they've rallied.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Now this is going to be fun. Not fun. Wasn't very fun.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Sure.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Yeah, it's hard because there are the precursors. I don't think any of us were fully trusting Joel Embiid's health coming into the season. Certainly, Paul George has given us reason to be dubious about his long-term ability to stay on the court. But I would never have anticipated that basically every single thing that could go wrong has gone wrong.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Every bright spot that has emerged in the rotation, short of Gershon Yabusele, which I'm not trying to jinx him, wrap him in bubble wrap, protect Gershon at all costs, please. Every other bright spot in the rotation has been snuffed out by injury, by circumstance, like nothing is working.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

And that's hard to predict clearly, but also hard to wrap your mind around, like how so many things could go wrong at one time.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

I don't think it is. Yeah, I mean, we can kind of parse those things out because there is the step-slow thing as well, right? Like, you're not getting past Zaire Williams against the Nets. That's a problem, right? That's a problem in a game where Joel Embiid is not playing, Tyrese Maxey is not playing. This is your moment to do some of this, and you make one shot. And worse, you attempt seven.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Horrible, horrible game for Paul George. All of that said, I have found myself at many points in the season... being a bit of a Paul George apologist. And look, those days are very much behind me at this point. But the case for that apology, the defense of Paul George throughout most of the season has been a defense of the little things that he brings to the table, right?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

It's orienting the offense. It's being an adult on the court when they badly needed it. It's spacing the floor. It's keeping the ball moving. Good connecting stuff. but role player stuff. And at some point, if you're doing all the role player stuff and you're failing every time you're asked to be a star, we have to call you what you are. And it's a $50 million role player.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

And that's a very tough position for the Sixers to find themselves at the very outset of this deal.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

A sixer should know never to say that they're bored doing something like playing the five because this life as a sixer will be very interesting very quickly in ways that you do not want.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

I don't know if Chicago wants to keep winning or not because their roster would tell you that they don't. The public comments would tell you that they are attempting to. So I really have no idea what to make of any of that other than the fact that Look, the play-in crop in the East is an absolute joke.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

It is teams that are either too hurt to compete, don't have the resources to actually be good teams yet, or in Philly's case, a little of both. They just are not in a competitive place by any stretch of the imagination. Quinton Grimes should not be your best player. That is not a thing that should be happening. Justin Edwards should not be playing 30 minutes in a game.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

That's not where the Sixers ever anticipated this going, but it's the reality that they now have to navigate.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Portland is tough because they are winning themselves out of the tank race at the moment. Yeah, I love it. Their future is tough. And we should say Philly's future in terms of their first round pick, which they may or may not be able to actually keep, is looking dicier by the minute. They have to be very careful they don't accidentally lose that pick at this point.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

We should not see him again. tethered to this conversation. They should be actively looking at shutting Paul George down, shutting Embiid down, managing these injuries over the back part of the season. It's time to regroup. This is not going to resolve itself. And even if you could limp into the play-in and even limp into the playoffs, that is not a success for this version of this team.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Being an easy out in the first round is not success for the Sixers. So at this point, sear into the skid, lean into the failure, live to fight another day, frankly.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

I don't think they get New Orleans. I think they just get Milwaukee and the Knicks. All right.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Yeah, we need a visual aid. We need somebody to come up with a flow chart.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Atlanta? The Atlanta ones are bad. Because it dramatically changes how they navigate their roster, what they're doing for the foreseeable future. On the one hand, I think it can be silly sometimes when teams like the Bulls, who were so protected they were probably going to keep their own pick anyway, go out of their way to trade to get their own pick back. It can be silly. Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

But there is so much more freedom and flexibility as a franchise when you do own your own picks. Because the second they're out the door, the second you lose control of when you start the clock and when you start to rebuild and when you start to reboot.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

And that's how you get into these weird lost seasons where you're sort of languishing either in the middle of the standings or just outside the play-in, accomplishing basically nothing, but also losing lots of games and not getting any draft capital to result from it. The Atlanta ones feel really, really rough right now.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

They'll have three. They'll have their own.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

And if you're OKC, I think you would also have to really think about it because what the Thunder need more than anything are cost-controlled players, really good players on cost-controlled salaries. Their roster is about to get very, very expensive very, very quickly. If you could have four cost-control years of Cooper flag as you are contending with the rest of this roster...

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

I'm hesitant to say this because we haven't seen Cooper Flagg play in the NBA yet. If he is as good as advertised, he might be the single most attractive piece to the Thunder for exactly that reason.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Good ball skills. Incredibly competitive.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Checks out.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Here's the thing, though. If that pick does convey and OKC gets Philly's pick, six teams will have 20 picks in the first round between them. OKC, one of them. Brooklyn will have three picks. The Spurs, the Jazz, the Magic, the Wizards will all have two picks. that is an incredible consolidation of draft capital.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

And I don't know who ends up keeping a lot of those picks and who ends up moving them on because they're clearly valuable for all of these cost-controlled reasons we've just talked about.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

But to just help you visualize at home as you're listening to us list off all of these swaps and protections and picks that may convey, basically every single pick from 18 to 30 is going to go to a different team, except for Indiana's pick and Boston's pick. That's it. Every other pick is probably going to change hands. And that's insane.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Doing the touchscreen. We have to raise pick-swap literacy around the country at this point because this is becoming an epidemic.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

I think go for it. Honestly, I think go for it. I... It's always tough in these positions, and yes, I understand the long-term arguments, but I'm with you that I am moved by the enthusiasm of the team. I am moved by the amount of backbone they've been playing with lately, and ultimately, particularly how good they've been on defense. This is...

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

A team that's like playing a pretty deep rotation, really high energy style, forcing a lot of turnovers. They can't score for shit even now, but they get a lot of stops and they play with a lot of effort. And ultimately, here's the thing. I say you encourage the guys to go for it and they ultimately will probably lose a lot of games anyway, but you didn't pull the rug out from under them.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

I think that's where you start to lose credibility with the players on your team is when you start actively sabotaging their efforts to win just for the sake of the lottery. But if there's a way to let them run themselves out, and look, if you look at the teams that they've beaten at this recent stretch of games where they've been so successful, it's not exactly a murderous row.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

They will lose games against better teams eventually, but let them find their spine. Let them find their style and ultimately what can be successful for them. And let Nick Claxton wake up a little bit because you had a bit of a slow start to the season. These are meaningful developments for a team like Brooklyn.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

There's not really another option.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

I don't care. I think LaMelo is better than that. I think he's better than that. Was that a defensive LaMelo ball? Look, I'm willing to go out on that particular limb.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

I think LaMelo is, look, he is on another planet in terms of some of the things he chooses to do, but has a facility with the game that not many guys have, and ultimately is basically the only reason the Hornets have been anything close to solving at any point in this season. So he doesn't have a lot to work with when he's out there.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Bigger concern for me, in addition to all of his habits and kind of the judgments he makes on the court, Clearly, just like that cursed ankles, tough injury history. If he's never going to be consistently healthy, how is he going to consistently grow as a creator? And that's a problem for a player like him.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Would I want to play with anyone under the age of 25? I think the answer is probably no. Like there is a stylistic difference between us.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

See, I think he and LaMelo could run beautifully together. Oh, I don't know. Anyway, they're in position to get him.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

OK, can I suggest what the thing is that you might be seeing? Yeah, that's it. I would say two things, maybe. Golden State actually shooting free throws. Great. Jimmy Butler helps with that. Two, something very exotic for the Warriors, attempting to score around the basket and sometimes doing so successfully. They blow a lot of layups.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

I get from that 10,000 foot perspective why Reinsdorf is the guy who comes up. I don't want to give Arturis Karnishevich too much cover here because I feel like Nico Harrison has done him an incredible favor. Patrick Dumont has done him an incredible favor, taking a lot of the airspace of the NBA right now. And I think it just kind of slid under the radar that after the deadline,

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Cornish was went up there, had his press conference and explained that there are three different ways to build the championship team. You can have two stars on it. You can have three stars on it, or you can have nine or 10 very good players.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

First of all, that has literally never happened before. No team has won a championship with nine or 10 very good players. Not a thing.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

I don't know what threshold he's talking about, but... What's better than very good? Like, great? Well, let's talk about that. If it is... Even if that were true, even if that were what the Bulls are trying to do, how many players on their current roster are very good or even, like, pretty good?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

I think he's good. He's probably the closest. Theoretical Alonzo Ball might be the closest. We hope Matas Muzelas can be that. Vooch some nights?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Yeah, there are no A minus players on this roster. I'm not even sure. This is a roster that is scraping for solid B, B minus talent right now. And to the extent that it's there, it's probably years away from developing.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

So you would take Charlotte's? You would take Philly's?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

What a day for the Wizards. You know, they had to win something eventually. They won your heart, at least relative to the Chicago Bulls. Congratulations to the Washington Wizards.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

That is the darkest sentence that I've ever heard someone say. And it might be true. I think it's true. I think it's true.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

I'll do credit to Jordan Poole who's had an exceedingly normal NBA season. And for him, for a guy that talented, that's a huge step forward.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

They have a lot of guys who clam up a little bit around the basket or can get stifled out with length. They obviously play really small. But having Jimmy as any kind of presence inside, even if he's also missing some layups now and again, just as a cutter, as a driver, as a transition force, It's a nice counterbalance to everything else that the Warriors have going on offensively.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

It's not as loud or as dramatic as what's going on in Philly. And so, yeah, they get the lead in terms of the dumpster fire power rankings here. It's so disappointing to see the Suns in such disarray, quietly sucking all this year and seeing none of the primary stakeholders of that team do a single thing to fix it.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

And this isn't ultimately like a second apron problem or a no trade clause problem. Like those are obstructions, right? In terms of Phoenix making its roster better. They're not obstructions for anyone on this team playing into the ball on defense. They're not obstructions for anyone on this team fighting for a rebound.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

They're not obstructions, most crucially, defining some semblance of offensive flow for a super talented team on paper. Like... I know there is a worse than the sum of its parts thing happening here because basically none of the parts complement each other at all. It's just a lot of guys in their individual lanes not making each other better.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

And that is a really tough watch for people like us at this stage in the season. I just don't get the sense that anyone involved in it particularly is participating in that offense either or participating in this season. And so it's so disjointed. It's so unpleasant. I really dislike where the Phoenix Suns find themselves. And I don't wish this on any of them. this is just who they've been.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

He would play. Who's he playing over? They need somebody like him.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Yes. I feel fine giving Bradley Beal Isaiah Joe's minutes.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Maybe sixth on the right roster.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

First guy off the bench.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

I mean, this is kind of the Torrey Craig corollary, because didn't he just kind of crack into Boston's rotation a little bit? Intense man. Yeah. Royce O'Neal can do a lot of Torrey Craig things. I would say he's slightly better than Torrey Craig on balance. Grayson Allen, very much an issue of how much you need his shooting. And frankly, this season, whether his shot is on or not.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Lately, it's been looking a lot better. Start of the season was not there. If he's streaky, he's not very viable. So that's a huge problem in terms of high-level competition.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Yeah, I think he can get minutes.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

That's even worse than this, frankly. That's the hard thing about interrogating Kevin Durant trades is the packages feel more depressing. And I think the packages also force you to confront... what you as an organization in the Phoenix Suns have done with Devin Booker's career.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

A player who had to come into his own, who took his time, who grew as a playmaker, who grew as a creator, who, to be totally fair, is not having an amazing season by his standards, but a good enough one, a good enough Devin Booker season. And if you use that whole period of time, and you have one trip to the finals in a somewhat weird Western Conference field, and that's it?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

That's the primary feather in the cap of the Devin Booker era? That's really sad, honestly, for a star who's had this kind of long-lasting relationship with the team. You would hope that a player like that would be rewarded with better.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

They have the toughest remaining strength of schedule of any team in the league from this point. I don't... They're not going to make it.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

I'm not sure they need to do that. I think they're going to be, again, perfectly fine coasting out, losing some of these games. Now, if the Fox thing catches on in such a huge way where it's unavoidable, then yeah, maybe you have that discussion. But part of trading for De'Aaron Fox is accelerating at least a little bit.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

And I think ultimately their position is not so much tethered to their own pick, right? It's tethered to the other draft capital that they have. It's tethered to the guys they already have on roster. So I don't think they necessarily need to.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

I think he's more 6'7", 6'8".

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

I think we covered a lot of it. We covered every mid to terrible team in the Eastern Conference, it feels like. So we really gave the people what they want today.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

always walton goggins but carrie coon never upset to see carrie coon on the screen and you haven't watched the first one yet not a bit you know i'm really looking forward to it i'm really juiced from my personal trip to spiritual thailand for this season so that's the thing you get to go on an actual vacation with the cast you just live back heresy through your tv from your lips to daniel x ears let's lock it in let's get that expense report filed i'm ready to go

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Lots of stuff. Love a lagoon.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Thanks, Bill.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

And yet they are a high IQ team. Like Steve Kerr is about to have an aneurysm at any given moment in these games. And you get it. Like some of the passes Draymond throws for being a genius level playmaker are absolutely baffling, indefensible decision making at times. And yet they get away with it because they have these hot shooting stretches.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Their defense is obviously still pretty rock solid overall. And I think we'll only get better with Jimmy. But ultimately, I'm totally with you as far as the post-up elements of Jimmy's game. He's so intuitive in terms of the way he moves. That has fit in Golden State really seamlessly. And he also, just in staggering him and Steph a little bit, it gives the Warriors something to do.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

And they were really lacking that when Steph was off the floor. It's like, what do we run? I guess Brandon Pajemski is going to dribble for 18 seconds. There was way too much of that happening. And Jimmy Butler, if nothing else, orients them to, OK, this is a this is an actual first option, even if he's not pounding the air out of the ball.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Yeah. Even in the games, Jimmy Butler is one of the best contested rebounders in the league in terms of just the overall effort he puts in and how he goes after it, even against bigs.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

And if we're going to talk about how Golden State makes a run or how they hold it together, how they challenge some of these other elite Western Conference teams, a big part of that is Jimmy Butler makes the version of small ball they play make a lot more sense. Moses Moody has been a thing for a while now, but the Moses Moody minutes make even more sense when you put in with Jimmy Butler.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Kuminga is going to be a little different just because they are a little bit duplicative. They're going to be a little trickier to play together, especially if Draymond is also on the floor. It can jam up a little bit too much. And I'm curious to see what Kerr does with that, how he tries to separate those guys, if at all, in the rotation, because they're going to have to play a lot.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

It's like the PER of box score stats, right? It gives you a general indication that something is up.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

I suspect having Jimmy will help with some of that. And just from an overall workload perspective, Jimmy and Kuminga coming back will lift some of what is on Steph right now. Ultimately, though, I think that is who he is at this point in his career. I don't think he's going to have those singular scoring outbursts all the time.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

But the good news for Golden State, I don't think the rest of the league has entirely caught up to that. I don't think they will catch up to that because history tells us they don't with legends. You put Steph Curry on the floor, someone sees him, they are going to freak out.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

And that's why virtually regardless of how many points Steph actually scores, he has a massive, massive on-court impact in terms of the offensive production. He is not at a Jokic level because Jokic is really in a class unto himself there. but with Shea, right?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Like with the other really high level offensive operators in terms of the difference of having him on the court, even when he's not hitting consistently, even when he's not going for 35 or 40 points, he just scares the hell out of people. I think that part will always be true, even if Steph is 45 rolling out there.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

And by volume, they've just been in a lot of close games, which that in itself, as you're saying, is taxing because it forces Steph to play more minutes to even get to that point.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

I still give Memphis a little credit in that conversation. I think we'll we clearly have to wait and see what the Lakers are capable of.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

But at this point, Denver's got the inside track and teams are going to have to figure out not just how to outflank them, but how to beat them specifically if that matchup comes on board, which is I would say the toughest single matchup available to anyone is what do you do with Nikola Jokic right now? Because we're seeing, Minnesota case in point tonight, OKC is a vaunted, unbelievable defense.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

But Minnesota has some inroads there to score against a team like that. Nas Reid is clearly a huge part of that formula. Granted, they're not playing with their usual team. Julius Randle, Rudy Gobert, Mike Conley, Dante DiVincenzo.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Absolutely. They didn't have their normal set of players, but they found things that could work against the Thunder defense for as wonderful as it is. I don't know that there's those answers for many teams about Nikola Jokic. There's just not a lot of conceptual stuff you can throw at him that's going to work. That's not to say you can't leverage Jokic.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

The occasional off night from Jamal Murray, elements of Russell Westbrook's game, parts of the back end of the rotation, Michael Porter, maybe not swinging the ball as fast as the Nuggets might like him to sometimes. Like there's buttons to press. The Nuggets are not unbeatable, but they look really tough right now.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

And they look like a really tough matchup specifically for the rest of this Western Conference field.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

Priscilla and I did that live show in Denver.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

That was actually exactly it, Bill. Oh, great. I spelled your gimmick. that, uh, that, that, yeah, you might be buried in the NBA playoffs. And so we're going to get everybody caught up on what's happening in the NFL who hasn't been paying attention.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

And, um, I got a sneaking suspicion, a couple of these, you probably, uh, you probably paid some attention to, but, um, I, I actually had trouble narrowing it down to five, but I think I have five. You can,

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

I have a couple honorable mentions. My honorable mention, we can do that at the start. Jim Irsay's passing, I think we should give some mention to that. And then Trey Hendrickson's contract situation, I didn't know if that was interesting enough, but that's still ongoing. We'll save those for the end.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

The other thing is like over the last 48 hours, I did learn what pink cocaine is. So I got that too.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

I mean, I don't know if it would, I mean, it's not like it's up there with like the love boat, you know, in Minnesota 20 years ago, that, that I think still a gold standard. I'd probably put, I'd probably still put this behind like the SS Beckham and in 2016, right, right, right before the playoffs, but maybe it might be number three in my time covering the NFL as far as boat scandals go.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

The Steelers didn't sign a quarterback.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

They are pretty confident that their quarterback is going to be Aaron Rodgers. And I do think that there's like... I think there's actually some decent reason here for people who want to listen to it. And I think this... This goes back to like how you manage everything in the spring and trying to get their work done.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

And I think the logic for both sides here was if he signs April 1st and look, he's got personal stuff he's dealing with, he's traveling. And if he signs April 1st and says, okay, guys, like I'm going to go away for the next two months. And when I'm back, I'm back. But like, I got some personal stuff I got to attend to. I've got travel planned.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

what you're inviting then is then whenever you start the off-season program, you get into OTAs, anytime the media is there, it's going to be, where's Aaron? Where's Aaron? Where's Aaron? And so I think both sides wanted to avoid that. And so that's part of it. And then I think the other end of it, and this is like, to me, almost the more interesting thing.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

I think Aaron was really affected by the way his trip to Egypt was covered last year. And so going through all of that,

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Well, if you remember, so he skipped the mini camp. The Jets had their mini camp at the end of June or in the middle of June last year at the end of their offseason program. And Aaron had been like pretty much a full participant in everything that they'd done up until then. And then he skipped the mini camp. And it was something that they had kind of predetermined he was going to do.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

But, you know, Sala said to him, okay, like, that's fine, but I still have to fine you. And I still have to hold you responsible. I still have to say, like, this isn't an excused absence because we have to have a standard for everybody. And it became like a two- or three-week story. And when they hit bumps in the summer and early in the fall, it continued to be a story.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

And the sense I get is that Aaron was frustrated by that, and he didn't want to go through that again. So I think part of the logic here for the Steelers, for Aaron, is... Just whenever you're in, you're all in, but not until then. And so I think the logic here between the Steelers and Aaron is like, okay, once you show up, we need all of you, bud. We need you all the way here.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

And so Aaron's taking care of everything he needs to take care of now. And when he shows up, I do think he'll be all in. And again, I think a huge part of this is marked by what happened with the Jets last year.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Because it was a news story?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

So I think that there's an element of that, but I think if you go back and you watch, you see pieces of it. Like I'm telling you, just pull up like a 10 minute highlight of their game against the Jaguars, which nobody watched. Cause it was the jets and the Jaguars at the end of the season. Um,

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

But if you pull up like a 10 minute YouTube highlight of that game at the end of December, you'll see it's like all still there. You'll be like, wow, like that looks like Aaron Rodgers in 2011.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Yeah, but it does look good. I'm just telling you that like, like I understand, but like there were some real, there was like some high level shit in that game and that he and Devante Adams, they, it, it, it's really, it's, it's all there, you know? So, um,

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

You know, I think I think what's maybe most interesting about this whole thing to me is where the Steelers are and that they are so leveraged for right now. TJ Watt wants a new contract. He's turning 31. Minka Fitzpatrick's turning 29. I mean, Cam Hayward isn't on the back nine. He's I mean, basically walking to the clubhouse now like he this is probably his last shot.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

they trade for DK Metcalf, who's a third contract guy and has had some injury issues. Like it's really, I mean, this is a team, like if this group's going to win, it sort of has to be right now. And so, you know, I think a big part of, you know, the Steelers logic, and I felt like all along, like they were going to be a contender for whatever big name quarterback became available.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Is Kirk Cousins a swing for the fences? I've been waiting on that one, by the way. To me, that's the thing with Kirk. You may be more likely to hit a double with Kirk and less likely to hit a home run, if that makes sense.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

With Aaron, maybe you're more likely to strike out, but at least you're swinging for the fences when you've been really average at that position since Ben Roethlisberger retired.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

I mean, what else is available though? I mean, if it wasn't going to be Stafford, right? Like, and I think Stafford was the most logical answer for a lot of different teams, you know, and the Raiders and giants were really in that one. Um, the Steelers dip their toe in it. I, like there just aren't that many options, you know?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

So it was a bad year to be looking at quarterback in the draft, especially, you know, if you didn't have the first overall pick and the veteran options again, like there were a lot of, I mean, the Rams, uh, When the Rams made the offer they did to Stafford back in March, it was with it in the back of their head.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

This guy doesn't want to leave Los Angeles, and this guy doesn't want to play for anybody but Sean McKinney. And the Giants had the same... The Giants had the same sort of thing in the back of their head as they were pursuing them. Raiders, too. It was like, yeah, we're really going after this, but this guy's going to wind up back in L.A. So if you take Stafford off the table, then it really is.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

It's Cousins. It's Rodgers. And then... I mean, now after that, you're talking about getting into Joe Flacco territory. There just wasn't a lot out there.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

How much of that's just because Mason Rudolph's the quarterback right now?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

They're there. So like, I would, you know, I would say like their, their offensive line should be a lot better. Like, and they've actually drafted. Okay. If Troy Fatano, you know, works out for them at tackle, you know, they've got Broderick Jones. That's two first round picks a tackle. They should be as strong. Zach Frazier might be the best young center in football.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Like they, they have a chance to have the best offensive line they've had in over a decade. Um, And then if DK Metcalf comes through, and I know I'm talking a lot of ifs here, right? Like, if DK Metcalf comes through, if TJ Watt is himself again, if Minka Fitzpatrick... If Aaron Rodgers is still alive. Right. So, like, there's all of these ifs, but if you're them, like, what's your other choice?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

You know what I mean? It's either... It was either this, like, take this big swing at quarterback and try to get it right and try to... squeeze a championship run out of this core that you've had together for the last few years or blow it up. And like, that's why I look at this as like, that's it's a, it's the one team where you look at it.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

I was like, that's a team that like, that's a really worthy swing because now at least like you're taking that swing with TJ Watt and Fitzpatrick and like some really great players that they've had there for a long time. Um, I don't mind this swing if I'm the Steelers.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

And look, I think people there would tell you that the Russell Wilson thing undermined so many things in the last month of the season and that a lot of that building really wanted them to go back to Justin Fields. And it was something where, I mean, Tomlin was kind of, again, all on his own on that one. And I think it's part of the reason why Tomlin likes Shador so much.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Like, he likes to do it going into the draft. But I don't think Tomlin wanted to... I don't think he wanted to, like, press that button again at quarterback after what happened with Russell at the end of the year last year.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

So there's some dynamics there where it's like... I mean, there's some stuff that happened at the end of the year in games where it was just like, man, like, if we were just, like, average at that position, or we were just running things as they were supposed to be run, we might have been okay. And, like, so I think their thought is...

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

a if we can get like 80 85 of what aaron rogers was three years ago like we might have a super bowl team which you can argue whether they would or not but i think when you when if you're them and you're looking at it with this group of players that you've had for the last few years and this might be your last shot before you really like go through like a real reset then it's worth taking that swing

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Well, because you're asking me, I know it's the Patriots.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

So my number two thing, the Cowboys, a year after Jerry Jones famously used the phrase all in, actually pulled an all in move and traded for George Pickens. And this one is really interesting to me because they're another team where like all the things you said about the Steelers, I think sort of apply to the Cowboys, right? Like, is this group that they have right now going to be good enough to

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Um, and like, is there something that you can do to try to put that group over the top? And so I think the answer was like, we got to get Dak Prescott some more help. And so that when they went into the draft, they looked at it. Like we either want to come out with, come out of this with alignment or a, or a receiver. And I think of Teterola McMillan who went eighth, the Panthers made it to 12.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Yeah. Like maybe that would have been a consideration, but they were sort of looking at it as this mosaic. It's like, well, We still have... I think there were a handful of receivers they were considering in trade, veteran receivers that they had studied and they had talked to teams about. And so McMillan's gone. They like Tyler Booker. They just lost Zach Martin. They draft Tyler Booker.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

And then on the back end, they go and make the deal for George Pickens, which... Here's the most interesting thing about it to me.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

So this one... So one of the main reasons the Steelers got rid of George Pickens is because the issues with him a lot of times have come down to his role in the offense, the direction of the offense, and how much he's getting the ball, which is normal with a lot of receivers. He's very over the top with it, which makes him worse than most when it comes to that stuff.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

And so when they traded for DK Metcalfe, The thing was, it was like he plays the same position, not that they're just receivers, the same receiver spot.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

The X receiver position, right? So they're both X receivers. Okay, so now you got to figure out a way to play them together. And now George Pickens is in a contract year. So do you think if he goes through a two or a three or a four week stretch in the middle of October with, say, three catches, and is he going to be OK with that just because we got another receiver?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Right. So to say the least, so is he going to be okay? Is he going to be okay with, if he wasn't okay with it before now in a contract year with a hundred million dollars on the line, is he suddenly going to be okay with, no, that's fine. I'm okay with DK Metcalf's on the team now. Okay.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

So like, that's part of the logic for the Steelers and moving off of them and saying, we're going to be better off with Calvin Austin and Roman Wilson and whoever else, uh,

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

That was such a weird play. So there's that, but like, and there's the lack of effort blocking sometimes, all of that, right? So like that all exists. Okay, so... If that whole thing was going to be a problem in a contract year in Pittsburgh, who's one of the highest volume receivers in football as far as targets go?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Right. So, like, is this now going to be okay with him? Again, he's in a new place. He's with new offensive coaches who are in their first year truly running the offense because Mike McCarthy's gone now. And he's not getting the ball with all that money on the line. Is he suddenly going to be okay with that?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Not right now, they're not. I mean, they're going to see how it goes. And like I said, everything's going to be in May and June. It's really easy for everybody to have their arms around each other and say, this is all going to work out May and June. It's a little different to project these things in September and October. They still have the Micah Parsons thing floating around out there too.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Like, and I, and I know like one thing that they had sort of discussed with, with George and his people was, are you comfortable going into the year without a new contract? And the answer was yes. And so like, if they go into the year, so like, but you can look at that both ways, right?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Like, is it, are you going to get a super motivated guy who's going to be out to prove to everybody he's team first? Maybe. I think the people in Pittsburgh would tell you what might be more likely is if he's not getting the ball a month or two into the season, you could have a problem.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Yeah, and that division, by the way, you've seen the schedule for that division. They're playing the NFC North and the AFC West.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, it's going to be really interesting. And I think a lot of it for them is counting on Brian Schottenheimer as a culture builder that he'll be able to build the right environment. Oh, yeah, that'll go great. I always go back, but I always go back to, like, I don't, like,

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

The idea of, like, the receiver, the Steelers, that Mike Tomlin is ready to get rid of, like, the history of that's not great, you know? True. When Mike Tomlin... I mean... Back in 2015, 2016, did anybody think of Antonio Brown and Le'Veon Bell as bad guys? It wasn't until they were gone, really. Or disruptive in some way. They got disruptive at the end. Bell got disruptive at the end.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

But generally, when the Steelers are ready to walk away from a guy for those sorts of reasons, or a guy who has that sort of background, generally it doesn't work out for the next team that gets them.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Derek Carr retired, which I feel like this, maybe because it happened on a Saturday, kind of like flew under the radar. You know what I mean? But it's one of a number of quarterback situations. I kind of grouped this together. This is cheating a little bit by me, but the Saints, the Vikings, the Browns. It feels like a few teams where the quarterback situations are going to be really interesting.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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Or macabre.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

I mean, I throw the Vikings. I'm hesitant to throw the Vikings in there.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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Who knows? And the reason I throw them in there with... the other two is because the expectations are so high there. Like if you're a player on that team, that's a 14 win team last year. Like that's not the type of team that like can throw the year overboard in the name of quarterback development. So, you know, what does that look like? And, I know J.J. fought through a lot last year.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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He lost a lot of weight. And he had a lot of ups and downs coming back from that injury. And obviously, he had the second follow-up surgery. It was more of a cleanup. He's in a much better place right now.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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And I don't think there's a better place in the league for a young quarterback to be, especially because of what they did with their offensive line and signing Ryan and Kelly and Will Fries and drafting Donovan Jackson. Yeah. Getting Christian Derrissaw back obviously will help a lot, but the Vikings are the one where I look at it and it's like so much is going to hinge.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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I mean, that could be a Super Bowl team if J.J. McCarthy has a great year, or the quarterback position could really hold them back.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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Yeah. So I got to look at those three teams. Like I, the saints to me, I mean like Tyler Shuck, Spencer Rattler, I mean, Jake Hainer's hurt now.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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It was one of the more bizarre endings to a career I've seen in 20 years covering this. I mean, it started with, if you go back to the end of the season, I think Kellen Moore committed but didn't really commit to Carr as the starter in the season. in the introductory press conference. Then there were some whispers that Carr wanted to trade and some teams sniffed around that.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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They sniffed around and it smelled like sewage. They were like, oh. And then there was, well, Carr wants a raise because to affirm, like, this is my team.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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Then after that, then after that, they convert his contract, which basically means he's on the team without really consulting with them, which they can do. It's a contract mechanism, but it basically locked them in where it converted. It took like basically, you know, 95% of his set, 98% of his salary and turned it into a signing bonus.

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Yeah. Yeah, they had, and that restructure pushes the cap money forward, but it basically locks them in with the team. Now, where they are saved by this is that they don't have to spend that money now. Now, they sunk a $10 million roster bonus into him, and part of the separation agreement is he gets to keep the $10 million roster bonus. So it's a buyout. Yeah, for the most part.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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And now they move on. And we'll see. I mean, Tyler Shuck was in college for seven years. He was at four different schools. I've heard he has, I think it's four degrees, which is pretty wild. Yeah. But he was Justin Herbert's backup for two years at Oregon, which gives you an idea how old he is. And then you have him competing with Spencer Rattler, and you see where that goes.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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And that looks like, is this a full reset year for them, where they're in the mix for one of the quarterbacks next year? Obviously, there's a quarterback who could be in the draft. I don't think he will be in the draft, but a quarterback who could be in the draft next year with a very famous last name that has ties to that organization.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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Yeah, I mean, like they... I'd have to think about that one. I mean, I don't know how many teams there are that are just outright in that position, need a quarterback, might wind up being in that position where they're not very good. And you never know the way these things are going to play out. And Kellen Moore is a first-year coach, obviously can't afford for them.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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It's hard for him to... They're the number one.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Right.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Vegas should be competitive. I think more competitive with Gino as a quarterback. So, yeah, I mean, Cleveland would be the other one if that thing crashes and burns.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

The Colts have... The Colts are interesting because that could be... I mean, obviously with... With new people, with a new owner, a new principal owner in charge. And then like the GM has been there now for, Chris Ballard's been there for, this will be his ninth year there. And they really haven't accomplished a ton. If he's in trouble, then maybe the coach is in trouble.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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It could, if things get off to a bad start there, it could get messy in a hurry.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

And then, you know, yeah, it's hard. Cause like, I mean like they, it really, while luck was still a quarterback, it looked like it was really going in a great direction. And then, you know, you have the surprise retirement, um, two years, seven years ago there. And that was, that's the thing is like, it had been a crutch for a while, uh, And it can't be a crutch anymore. It's been way too long.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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Not enough people are talking about how I think Houston could bounce back in a really big way. Oh, make the case. So like, I think Houston, I think Houston's got a top five defense. And I think with the level of like, like the young core players, like Will Anderson and Derek Stingley, and they bring Daniel Hunter back and they've got like a lot of nice ancillary pieces on defense too.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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Really good coach. And they've got the defense. Yeah, they've got the defense where they want it. And part of the reason they traded Laramie Tunsil was because they felt like the culture in their offensive line room was broken and that they weren't able to kind of match like the culture they built on defense on offense. Interesting. And so they trade Laramie Tunsil.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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They bring in a million different tackles to try and fix it. They draft the kid from Minnesota. They bring in Trent Brown and Cam Robinson. They just throw a bunch of darts to tackle. They bring in a new offensive coordinator from the Rams and Nick Cayley.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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Right. Who I think have a chance to be really like, if you look at the history from that school, like a lot of guys from that school come in and produce right away. So it wouldn't shock me like as like complimentary pieces to, to Nico Collins. If those guys are playing pretty well right away and you have CJ Stroud, I, I look at it and I'm like, a lot of people have totally forgotten about them.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

I think they have an elite defense. And if your problem is offense and you've got CJ Stroud to build around and you're bringing in a coordinator from the Rams, who I think is really capable and has both like the Josh McDaniels and Sean McVay background, and you play in a weak division,

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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And like as much as people thought they were not the same last year, they were down by one point going into the fourth quarter of the divisional rounded arrow.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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Right. Right. So like, like it's, I think we look at it like it was broken because our expectations were so high after CJ's rookie year, D'Amico's first year. And I'm, I, I just don't know that teams are looking at that. Like, I don't know if people are looking at that team enough and saying, you know what? Like there's still a lot of like really good stuff in place here.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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And if the young quarterback bounces backwards, CJ was doing incredibly high level shit in 2023. Yeah. That could be a dangerous team. Now, do they break into the Buffalo, Baltimore, Kansas City? Do they break into that tier? Cincinnati could get back into that tier. Maybe, maybe not.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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But I think if you look at the teams in the AFC, they may have the best chance to do it of the teams that are right below that.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Houston's got to be an overwhelming favorite, right?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

I was going to say, is there like a lot of belief in James Gladstone and Liam Cohen now? I don't know.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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He's done jumping out of my TV. I can't wait to watch him, but I just, I think Jacksonville's problem, like under the last regime, you know, the, and this is where I think like there's some cleaning up that needs to be done. Yeah. Is like they paid a lot of good players great money.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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Like there are guys there are there are guys in that roster that they paid like their franchise players when they're just pretty good. And, you know, Trevor Lawrence on that list because I mean, you you could you could I think, you know, they they pay Walker a little to play left tackle after he played for like 15 minutes for them. Right. Yeah. Tyson Campbell at corner.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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I mean, Christian Kirk is gone, but I think he'd be another example of that. You know, like there was just a lot of examples of like, I mean, you could even, you could even like argue that, that, that Walker is one of those guys. You know what I mean?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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Like, so like, are they just, do they just have like a collection of pretty good players and they don't have like the types of, they don't have like Houston has Will Andrews. Like I said, Will Andrews, Derek Stingley, Nico Collins, CJ Stroud. I mean, They have an identity at least. Right.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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Like how many players on Houston's roster, like if you rank the two rosters, Houston and Jacksonville, how many Texans would you have to go through to get to the first Jaguar?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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Yep. So number four, Caleb Williams is in the news again. And this is an excerpt from, I think, our mutual friend Seth Wickersham's book. Yeah. And it was, for those who missed it, before the 2024 draft, he and his dad had looked at the idea of... Um, he and his dad had looked at the idea of forcing their way out.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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I guess what you would call it is pulling an Eli and, um, had their eyes on the Vikings and, um, the Vikings had actually researched Caleb too. That was the, that was of course the, the draft they took JJ McCarthy in. Um, so like this has become like a little bit of like a firestorm in Chicago. And I think it's sort of, I think the first signal of like what's to come for Caleb there, um,

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

And I think he is such a high-end talent.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Well, just, no, like, just the level of, like, the training wheels are off now. The excuses are gone. Oh, from a scrutiny standpoint. Yeah, like, now it's like you have to start playing well. Yeah. You know, we've seen the year two jump. I mean, this might get you excited about Drake, too, but we've seen the year two jump where... I can't get more excited. I mean, but you look at it.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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Patrick Mahomes, MVP of the league his second year. Lamar Jackson, MVP of the league his second year. Joe Burrows in the Super Bowl in his second year. Josh Allen, 10 wins and in the playoffs in his second year.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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And so you look at all of this, right? So is Caleb going to take that step? And I think... I think this is a scrutiny that Caleb's going to be under because they fixed so many things. They drafted Colston Loveland, 10th overall, Luther Burden with their second pick. They traded for Joe Tooney and Jonah Jackson to play guard. They signed Drew Dahlman from Atlanta to play center.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

They hired Ben Johnson, which is a huge part of it.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

And you look at it and it's like, this now looks like they should be able to get a very clean read on what Caleb can be. And it was interesting because I did a little reporting on this last week where I kind of asked around like...

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

you know, what they've been working on with Caleb and the stuff that they've been working on was really how you carry yourself as a franchise quarterback and how you, and how you have to like the command that you have to have to be a franchise quarterback. And, you know, a couple of the examples that were brought up to me, they watched tape of him, uh,

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

taking sacks and how long it took for him to come off the ground. And basically the point they were trying to make to him was last year was a tough year. We understand your offensive coordinator gets fired. Then your head coach gets fired. Your offensive line wasn't very good. We get it.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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It's like, but if you're lying on the ground, you know, for an extended period of time, you're not picking yourself up off the ground. that's going to resonate with the rest of the team. That's the sort of thing that's going to... And so it's like, you need to be popping up off the ground after hits.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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Probably going to be a good example. Yeah. Another thing they said, but they showed, they showed tape like early in a game of him and the motions coming from the right and he's looking to the left. And so like, there's little things as far as like command, like we want you to be the commander of the offense.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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And so like so much of what they're doing right now is we're trying to make you the guy and we're going to give you every tool to make you the guy. And we're going to tell you how you have to carry yourself as the guy. And so, you know, I think you're going to take a big jump.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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I remember talking to Brady about this way back when I was covering the Patriots.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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Yeah, and he said to me, the only way I can show my toughness is availability. That's the only way I can. At that position, the only way I can in this game where everyone's tough, the only way I can prove my toughness to the guys who are really out there in the trenches is to be available and to be the first one into the huddle and to be the first one up and to be available to them.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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And I think that was sort of the point with like, you have to be the first one to pick yourself up off the ground too. Cause no matter how hard you got hit, someone's probably hurting worse than you are out there on that field. And like, even like the thing about the motion, right? Like, is it going to be like that guy who's coming, that receiver who's coming in motion, right. From your right.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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And you're looking left. Is that guy going to follow you after that happens? You know what I mean? Like, or he's, is he going to see that and say, what, what is this kid doing? You know? So it's little stuff like that, that I think they're trying to do to empower Caleb. And, um, that's really interesting. Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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And so I think like, it's, it's just, I think that stuff is really, they're trying to kind of empower him to be the leader there. And I even think like the way he handled the, the, the, the, the backlash, the Seth thing, um, I think it was yesterday, he stood up there and he stood in front of the media and said, look, he took the bullet for it.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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He said, look, when I was coming out, me and my dad were looking at everything. My dad, as any parent would, we were just investigating all of our avenues. Once we came and visited the Bears and we got to know the organization, we felt differently about it. But of course, we looked at the history of it. And it was... To me, it was like he could have hid from that. You know what I mean?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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Like he could have just said, I'm not talking about it's in the past. But the only way to kill that story is to stand up there and answer the question. So I thought that was a pretty good sign for maybe him maturing a little bit and growing into the leadership role for.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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I mean, what's I mean, one of the most I mean, that market for football, like that's one of the more pressure packed markets in the league.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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He's not getting up. Sometimes you pick up things on these things, covering them in really stupid ways. And this is one example for me. So when I was covering the Patriots, when I was in the beat, my roommate is one of my best friends from college and he was coaching. He was a limited earnings coach at Northeastern before they dropped football. And we were living in the North end.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

And so like he and I would, would talk about all these things. And I remember him, like it was, it was awesome. Like, you know, when I, when I watched football with him, like he would actually come in and watch with me when I would like watch the Patriots games over again. And he said, you know what the difference with Brady is? And I'm like, no, what would you say it is?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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It's like it's that he lets the plays develop. It's like if you watch other quarterbacks, they get rid of the ball. He is so willing to take the hit. And this was before the ACL. But he is legitimately like watching him. He was saying to me, he's like he is legitimately giving the receivers an extra second to get open.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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He is giving everything an extra second to develop because he's willing to take a hit that the other quarterback won't. You know, and I thought that was such an interesting piece of insight. And I think it matches up with what you're trying to say on Brady. And I think the guys, the guys recognize that too. You know what I mean? Like the receivers recognize that too.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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The guys who, cause that's going to help them out.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

The concussion at the end of the year. Well, yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Um, so I was, I had like tush push here, but I'm so freaking sick of talking about that. Yeah, please. I'm done with it. I did.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think calling the other owners a teenager was an interesting strategy to take. I actually think the bigger thing to come out of that meeting is the discussion on the playoff format changing.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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So I don't think enough people are talking about this. When they first brought it up in the meeting, In March, they had probably five or six votes. So for people who don't know, you need 24.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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So you still get in the playoffs automatically if you win your division, but the Lions proposed open seating. More or less, it would mean you're seated purely by record.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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So, yes, the Vikings in Week 18 were in a war with the Lions. They lose. They have 14 wins. And now they got to go on the road.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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Right. And they got to go on the road in the wildcard round and play a Rams team that rested everybody in Week 18. Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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I think they had 10. They were 10-7. Yeah, so they were four games worse. But I think the nuance to this is that people think this is about fairness for the league, and it's not. It's about games in Week 17 and Week 18 being compelling. And the Rams are actually the example of why... The Rams are what scare people.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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What the Rams did scares the league because the Rams didn't have nothing to play for in week 18. If you remember, they could have played to avoid the Vikings. They could have been the third seed or the fourth seed. Sean McVay makes the conscious decision. It's more important that my guys get the rest than play for the third seed. So I'm going to sit everybody down. They lose to the Seahawks.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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So that scares the league because it paid off. And because now you have a team... And the NFL, they're very cognizant of what's happened in the NBA. And they look at each of the 272 games as pieces of real estate that they can sell. So are we making those pieces of real estate as valuable as we possibly can...

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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If you have the format they have now, I think is fair in a lot of ways because of the scheduling formula and the way that works. But you have these games at the end of the season now where it's like, screw it. We'd rather get the rest.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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And that's what I was going to say. So they're projecting it forward and they're saying, this is going to get worse.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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Like it just worked for the Rams. And this now is going to get worse if we don't do something about it. And so if they have open seating, like there will be more to play for at the end of the year. The problem is the scheduling formula. In the NFL, you only play 14 teams over the course of a year.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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Of course, you play your three teams in your division twice and you only play teams in your conference. You only play 11 teams in your conference. So the schedules are so wildly different. And I use the example of like the NFC East, right? Like, so the NFC East plays the NFC North and the AFC West this year. The NFC West plays the two South divisions, right?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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So, I mean, you could argue an 11-win season by the Eagles is more impressive this year than a 13-win season by the Niners, right? Yeah, no question. The Niners have played eight games against those two South divisions.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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Yeah. And so like you had the, the Ram COO, Kevin Demoff stood up in this meeting, um, you know, last week and basically said to the room, guys, we need to decide what we're trying to do here. Are we trying to be fair or are we trying to make the games at the end of the season more compelling? Um,

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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And that led to like more big picture talk where I think the scheduling formula is going to come under some scrutiny. Are we doing this right? And I think the scheduling, the scheduling formula, I think is mostly fine. Yeah. But like, that's the sort of big picture things that they're going to be looking at.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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I mean, was it possible that it would be fair to have every, like just have open conference and no divisions, right?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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And like, just, but, but, but here will be the idea. You play, you play every team in your conference. So you have 15 games in conference. And then if you're going to an 18 game schedule, you play three games out of conference every year. I like, I don't, I'm not wild.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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No, no, no, no, no, no. You deconstruct the divisions altogether.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

I mean, it's one solution, but the point is... I don't think they're going to do that, but the point is... I think this is the sort of big-picture thinking that's coming out of it. I saw... you know, on the way out of the meetings, a team president say to somebody else, you know, Hey, I want to be part of the scheduling discussion.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

It's going to be a big picture topic for them over the next couple of years. And I think it's going to have way more of an impact than what everybody was focusing on last year with the last week with the Eagles. Right. Because it could, you know, they could lead to some structural change in the way that all this stuff works.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Yeah, that was one was like, do we have a marker where it's like, if there's a three game gap or a two game gap, then that's a stipulation in there. Do you like that? It just feels like too arbitrary for me. I don't know. I mean, there was another one where it was like, you have to be plus 500. If you win your division, you have to be plus 500.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

You have to be plus 500 to get the automatic seat. Otherwise, you're in the pool with a wild card.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Right, so they discussed that, which that makes some sense to me too. I think when you're in a league that only plays 17 or 18 games and you're not playing everybody, it's just the records aren't the same. The records don't mean the same thing. And so I don't know if there's a really simple way to take care of it.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

That's where it gets stupid.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Right. Yeah. Well, let's see how you remember the Seahawks and, um, the, the, the beast quite game, the Marshawn game. That's the famous one. Right. Right. So they beat the saints. And I think if I remember right, the saints were like 11 and five that year. It was like breeze in the prime of his career. And they had to go all the way to Seattle.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

and coming off the wildfire thing and they're playing and the game was weird in Arizona. Like the Vikings were dealing with all these strange circumstances. Yeah. Right. Right. And it was like, and, and, and it, but I, again, like, I think that's what scares, what scares the league is like, if that really worked, that means more teams are going to consider it next year.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Even this coming year, don't you think some teams are going to look at what the Rams did and say, we need to consider that. If we're locked into a playoff spot and we're just playing for a single spot in the seating, maybe we are better off sitting all of our guys. If you watch that game, you go back and watch that game, the Rams looked like they were shot out of a cannon.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

The Vikings looked like they were dead-legged. I think that's what scares the league about it. I think it's It's something that's going to be part of like the big picture discussion going forward.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Yeah, it's because of money. I don't need 40 seconds to explain that.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

because it's eventually going to be shoved down their throat. And like, I think for the players, it's as much about like, how do we get as much as we can for it? And I would say like my argument, if I were the union, what I would want is you need to get me to free agency quicker. Like you need to, instead of it being four years on rookie contracts, you need to have it be three years.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Because if you think about it, like the difference between 16 and 18 games, right? That's eight more games that you've got to make it through to get to free agency over four years, right? Plus playoffs. And you're talking about the most violent game, right? So that's a real thing that, you know, if I'm looking at it, I'm a player, I'm like, you got to get me to free agency quicker.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

The problem is in the NFL is that the union is controlled by the older players who, is that going to be a priority for them to get... a 22, 23-year-old to free agency faster. Generally, historically, it hasn't been the priority for him.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

But I think that that's what you would... If I'm the union, I think that would be one of the first things I would ask for is you have to get more of my players to free agency faster and maybe... even like you look at franchise tags and those sorts of things, is there a way we can loosen the reins on those as well?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

It's the dichotomy of the league.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Right, right, right. That's exactly it. Like that's a dichotomy of it is like the rank and file in the NFL is making less than a million dollars a year and like is probably going to be out of the league within a couple of years. So they've got to take every dime they can get while they can get it. And yet the guys who are controlling the negotiation are the 1% of the 1%.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

I would say the best thing I could say is like the new staff's gotten in there. There was a lot of things broken last year. Josh's offense is pretty complex. He has worked on kind of simplifying some things. He studied the college game a bunch last year to try to make it a little more user-friendly. But the best thing I can tell you, the most encouraging thing I can tell you is that they...

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

they have not needed to game the offense up to make it work for Drake May. He has looked like a professional quarterback in the meeting room and on the practice field at this point.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

I can't remember who it was. There was somebody who tried to top it. The tall blonde lady? There was somebody who tried to top it later in the draft too, who said that they were going to lay their life down for the franchise. I don't know if that's going to become a trend now. Like who can go more Braveheart on like the draft interview? I loved it.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

I love how all he wants to do is protect Drake Bay. That's his job in life. If you Google it, there's some really good like LSU weight room content that you'd really like. Like I haven't watched it.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

Okay. All right. Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

All right. Thanks Bill.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

Why not both? But I think the dark clouds of John Morant falling that hard in the fashion that he did and the way that the game just completely flipped on its head the moment that he left, it's hard for that not to be the top-line takeaway. It's just such a bummer.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

I mean, it's certainly better context than winning by 50 plus, right? Like these are the kinds of these are the kinds of runs you want to have to make. I think the Caruso point you laid up top is really important. This idea that he is a crucial part of their closing groups.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

And I think showed in this case, you got to play that dude off the floor because he will fuck you up and he will end your season. Like the number of just completely disruptive defensive plays he had down the stretch against bigs, against wings, against guards. he just, like, his defensive range is so incredible.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

And the only thing you can really do is try to challenge him to hit some shots, try to, you know, I think push him on the other end to the point that OKC has to make some hard calls, and they just never reach that point because Caruso was that good. And ultimately, I think because Chet and J-Dub were that good, too.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

Yeah. I mean, that was like a best case shooting half for Memphis overall. They were hitting everything. It was just, everything was clicking into place, starting with Scottie Pippen Jr. having such an amazing game. Yeah. For them to have to give it all back like this is so dispiriting, is so crushing.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

And I think the Jaron Jackson piece of this is interesting to talk about because OKC is a horrible matchup for him. I think his handle is good enough to beat Biggs. It's not good enough to beat the Alex Carusos and certainly to drive into the teeth of a defense like Oklahoma City. That's where you really strain even the more developed part of his skill set from this year.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

Honestly, when he took his jersey off coming off the court, he was not responding as if he was going to be coming back out there. You could see he was in a lot of pain. You could say he was in a lot of anguish over that fall. It was a tough scene all around.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

The audacity to hurdle Lou Dort is what makes Ja Ja, but it's also what leads to these plays, unfortunately.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

I mean, I think just a lot of optimism from the Chet piece of this game, just a monster second half overall that is heartening as far as his piece in that, right? They're always going to have the questions about this sort of secondary offense. They're also going to have those questions, as you say, about what is the best optimal defense to throw at SGA in a playoff setting.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

And I think Scottie Pippen Jr. does a good job against pretty much every star he's asked to guard, like real yeoman's work, considering what he's asked to do. You could say the same of a Chris Dunn matchup. Derek Jones Jr. is one of the few defenders in the league who actually seem to have an effect on SGA in the regular season during some of their matchups.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

And so the challenge of a team like the Clippers, as Denver is finding out, is the sheer variety of shit that they can throw at you and the way that they can mix up their coverages and their assignments and keep you guessing at all times.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

And if something is going to throw the thunder off their game, and I'm not sure it will in a way that they're going to lose a series, but it would have to be disruptive in that way.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's good. It is going to come down to whether you can push him and push them in that way where he has to be more of an offensive presence if you can leverage it. But he's such a good playmaker in a facilitating capacity and he's such a smart cutter. I feel like he always has stuff he can do.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

And of course, if you're creating enough havoc on defense to create fast breaks, you're going to win those trade-offs. The issue with Caruso has honestly not even really been his offense historically. It's been like, can he be healthy enough to play a lot over the course of entire seasons? And with the way everything is shortened up now, it really doesn't matter.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

You can just put him out there for 25 to 30 minutes a night if the matchup allows it, and he's going to do you a lot of good.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

They have five and a half playable guys right now?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

Peyton Watson's been kind of a disaster in some of his minutes so far. Yeah. If Russ can't play, this is the thing about all of the hand-wringing about the highs and lows of Russell Westbrook. They just straight up need his minutes more than anything. They can't afford this much Julian Strother as they're going to have to throw out there if Russ can't go.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

And overall, the construction of the team... to your point bill does not feel like one that would give you a lot of confidence if you're Nikola Jokic, if you're Jamal Murray, if you're Aaron Gordon with one functional calf.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

I don't know how you watch the team around you not close out to shooter after shooter after shooter and think, oh, we're just a couple of effort plays away or we're a couple of strategic tweaks away. This feels like a chasm in the series that's developing. I think in part because the Nuggets, they just look shook by the end of this game.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

It's just not a good recipe for him.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

We're trying to figure out who did this.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

And me, to be fair.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

I feel fine. I feel like it's a regular season award and I will sleep soundly at night with that knowledge.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

Or to get two functional rotation players for Michael Porter Jr., right? Denver does need depth in such a bad way. They do need shooting. They need the stuff that, at his best, MPJ is able to provide. Right now, he's clearly not at his best. Maybe he's not at his best consistently enough for the salary slot he takes and the role you're asking him to fill on the team.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

But I don't know, their problems cut so much deeper. Like, they're just not going to go on any long runs if this is how they're going to defend. And functionally, the core of the team is not going to get dramatically better in that regard unless you start making some pretty dramatic moves.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

It was incredible to Billy. You're saying Jokic is passing in the first quarter really was awesome, like high level Jokic stuff. What you would expect from a player of his pedigree. You watch them go on a run. You're seeing him set up these guys with all these no look passes. You're like, OK, Denver's really got something. You look at the scoreboard. They're up four points.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

I just think the Clippers have done such an amazing job of just chipping away at all of these Nuggets runs. A lot of that is James Harden in particular, who played amazing basketball today. Kawhi Leonard wasn't even that good, and it just did not matter as far as the Clippers' consistency of scoring went.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

So they've just been able to mitigate every little bit of something that the Nuggets have put together. And when you're in that position for Denver, it just takes all of the wind out of you.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

It's how deep the league is. It's also some of these teams, especially in more of the mid and small markets, running scared of what the apron is going to mean for them and preemptively trying to get ahead of some of these problems in the way that Chris was talking about. It wouldn't have fully saved the Nuggets.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

And there's some parallel versions of that for the Bucks where, if anything, maybe they've been a little too aggressive in steering into the skid of their finances. Maybe they've been too aggressive in steering into the skid, certainly of the age curve, right? Of leaning on someone like Dame Lillard to be Giannis' primary running mate.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

You couldn't have anticipated the blood clot, but you could have anticipated some of the gradual decline year over year that a small guard is going to have naturally. And so then you end up with Giannis Antetokounmpo. You end up with Nikola Jokic surrounded by teams that are like fine, you know, pretty good. And because they are so amazing, well,

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

at some points trick you into thinking that they're probably a little bit better than they are. And that's a really dangerous place to be at a team. It's hard to take an honest assessment of who your 6th and 7th and 8th guys are when every time they're shooting an open 3 from Giannis or they're getting a backdoor cut from Jokic. It's hard to take stock of your team in those circumstances.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

Yeah, I mean, you joke about the Simmons part. The Clippers winning his minutes so decisively is a damning a piece of evidence. Like, that is really where you are if you're the Denver Nuggets is you're straight up getting embarrassed by the Ben Simmons zone defense minutes. And Jokic is on the floor for a lot of those, right? And you're still trying to figure it out.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

You could see them trying to cut behind it, trying to, like, work some angles. None of it felt sustainable. None of it felt like they ever got into an actual rhythm. Breaking down, I repeat, a Ben Simmons zone defense. That's the series right there.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

You are coming to this with trauma, I will say, given last year's playoffs.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

I'm becoming a little radicalized, I gotta say. I have a quite high tolerance for James Harden-esque theatrics. I'm mostly fine with it.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

This is the thing, and I think the juxtaposition of him specifically against Asard Thompson in the series, who's just playing good, wholesome defense, but with a hyper-athletic frame. And you're just seeing him get baited into sometimes dumb young player shit and sometimes inexplicable non-calls that Jalen Brunson gets the benefit of.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

I will say, I thought the first half in this game, Jalen Brunson was participating in every version of that possible and trying to steal every one of these calls. I thought he cleaned it up a lot in the second half. And I thought that some of what we were talking about in terms of the shot distribution paid off too.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

Like he just looked really fresh and was such a huge part of them rebuffing all of these Pistons runs in part because he wasn't trying to sell these dumb fouls every single possession and hitting the floor every single time. At some point you can, you are allowed to just play basketball. And I like when Jalen Brunson just plays basketball.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

I like when he draws some fouls too, but we need a little bit of shame, just a modicum of shame.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

They are close, but I came away from this game, which is a two-point game, feeling pretty confident about the Knicks margin for error because everything you laid out is true. Like those are all elements of the game. Some went well for Detroit, some didn't. It kind of all came out in the wash for them.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

For the Knicks part of it, I thought the Knicks just straight up botched their pick-and-roll defense for a huge portion of this game. Just were not on the same page at all. They got nothing from their bench through the entirety of this game. They got outshot from three. They got out-offensive rebounded. And they still win, squeaking it out.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

But down the stretch, it really did feel like I trust Jalen Brunson to make these plays. I trust even Carl Anthony Towns to make these plays, who he had a tremendous game overall. And to the idea of whether the shot distribution was intentional or not, Cat coming out super aggro. You can usually tell really quickly kind of what's in his head. He kind of has it all out on his sleeve.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

And his intention to make his presence felt on this game, I think, changed a lot of it early. And that then opened up for Jalen Brunson to do a lot of the closing late. Clutch player of the year, Jalen Brunson. Oh, yeah, I forgot. A real award that exists.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

I did see it. We discussed previously, Bill, you had Jason Tatum third on your ballot for clutch player of the year.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

He's only 19. He's only 19. I'm not disputing it. I'm just saying I saw the full voting and there was exactly one third place vote for Jason Tatum for Clutch Player of the Year. So congratulations for working your way into voting history.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

Yeah. Even what we were talking about as far as Jalen Brunson overextending in the previous games, some of that is a Tibbs style of offense as well. Some of it is Jalen Brunson. Some of it is a guy like Cat who can sort of ebb and flow in these games and doesn't always claim his spot as far as his role in the offense goes if he's not really focusing and thinking about it.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

I think Tibbs is such a weird coach because he cleans up so many things for you, but he also so clearly leaves all of this other low-hanging fruit that some other coach could come in and do and make your team a little bit better in these particular ways. For example, I remain stunned by how little 1-5 pick and roll the Knicks run. Jalen Brunson and Carl Anthony Towns are your best players

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

it almost doesn't matter who is guarding them. You can do that anytime you want. And certainly every second that Jalen Duren is guarding Carl Towns, which was a lot of the second half after the Pistons kind of switched that matchup. Why are you not running pick and roll at Jalen Duren every second he's on the court?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

Lots of options.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

I respect Tibbs a lot. I think he brings a lot to this team. But there is something to the idea of the formula maxing out at a certain point.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

I thought B-Ball Paul was trying to get ejected. Like, what was that?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

KCP versus Al Horford.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

Pretty amazing stuff. What about Draymond with each and every rocket?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

Completely separate arguments and frustrations with all of them somehow. And I appreciate his ability to compartmentalize personally.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

I would challenge any human being to try to move fast enough while rotating their body to beat Ja Morant to a quick twitch spot in order to even try to undercut it. It's just not a realistic human thing to do, even for Lou Dort.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

It's like, oh my God, it's busted wide open. Well, they tagged in Gogo Batase. That's what happens after he comes into the game.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

He's aged out of Swayze. Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

Yeah, I would like to think that Pacers-Bucks is going to be fun and competitive and maybe have a spin on that series. I just don't really see what levers the Bucks can pull to really change things there. They kind of are what they are, and Giannis is going to be amazing, but how do they really make anything happen?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

Versus we clearly know how the Wolves make things happen, and it's hit a fuck ton of threes, make really sharp decisions with the ball, and counteract at least some of what the Lakers have going on on the other end.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

They're not that bad in crunch time, for the record.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

They're probably about average.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

I mean, their defense was pretty incredible with that group. But yeah, the more times you have to do that repetitively and the more times you're doing it and giving and a chance to look at it and see how to break it down and they're going to film sessions in between is going to get harder and harder. And there's no alternative, right? There's not the option to just play Jackson Hayes 35 minutes.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

You can't do it. So all they have to do is stretch out Dorian and Rui and LeBron as much as you possibly can. And I thought LeBron was

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

awesome on defense in particular in that game he was great ultimately the Lakers I mean they didn't light the world on fire with their own scoring they won that game because they locked the Wolves up and they forced a team that's a little shaky in its decision making to make some characteristically Wolves mistakes

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

Even if you had him, would you play him over Davion Mitchell? Who's I think is just a better player at this point.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

I mean, I think he's in a... I think he's in a... Like, he's still pretty injured, I believe.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

Honestly, pretty sick.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

I'm trying to think of which of these series can get... I feel a little disoriented because the series that we were loving are now also stilted.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

If Jimmy Butler doesn't play, if the Clippers keep really accelerating into this series, is there anything else in this first round that we're really psyched about other than... We've already talked about it a little bit, but I do want to see the Wolves counterpunch. I do want to see what they've got. I think that's probably the most interesting next step for me.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

Clippers, and I would say Thunder were impressive today. The thing is, they were already so impressive. You know, the Clippers, we wanted to see how they stacked up against a team like Denver so much. And they've had all the answers, right? The fact that they're dictating all the terms of this series so far is really demonstrative at this stage in the playoffs.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

I don't know that I've seen a minute go by in the series where someone's arm isn't around Steph's hip, just like locked in, holding him in place as he tries to cut around the court. It's just, he's always had some of that where defenders are allowed to get away with things with Steph that they wouldn't be in any other context.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

Or if he had the ball in his hands, as you're saying, it would be officiated completely differently. Somehow he still busts loose as long as they have enough bodies to make their lineups work. And without Jimmy Butler, if that's going to be more than game three, I just don't think they have the bodies to make the lineups work.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

We're in a very healthy place. I'll say, too, the Pistons-Knicks game today, it was refreshing to see the game end and both teams are just furious with the officiating. The backcourt violation for Brunson, as you said, Chris, was cited chapter and verse.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

Just something for everybody to be pissed about.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

We got The Last of Us going on. We got your friends and neighbors going on. There's some pretty solid TV happening right now.

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Shedeur’s Slide, NFL Draft Takes, a Nuggets Code Red and Brunson Goes Villain

You're a Birkin guy?

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almost perpetually. But I think some of that is the struggling out of the gate earlier in the season, the skepticism that Chris is talking about in terms of, you know, like their playoff run last year, I think felt so fluky to a lot of people based on the injuries in the field, based on some of the opportunities in front of them. It felt blazery. It felt a little blazery. I think that's fair.

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But I also think they seized every opportunity in front of them. And I think they've continued to do that and really righted the ship, not just offensively, but defensively. So I am happy to be neck deep in Andrew Nembhard tape and to be an advocate for the Pacers here on a national platform. I think they've been really, really good. I think they're better than most people realize.

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And I think ultimately more balanced than most people realize between the depth and the defense that they've played over the back part of the season. There's a really good team top to bottom.

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That's where I think the Dame return is such a huge deal. It completely changes the matchup. It also changes it from, I am a battered man who had to carry this team over the finish line for the back part of the season. I'm dragging Ryan Rollins on offense to make this thing work. And now you have potentially a really potent shot maker returning to the field.

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I thought before the Pacers were going to win in a fairly short series. I picked Pacers in five thinking Dame was not going to play. him coming back at some point buys them time. I just don't think they have enough secondary and tertiary answers. Dame, in whatever state he's in, is going to be out of shape, out of rhythm, coming back into it.

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Already has had kind of a weird season in terms of the actual impact he's making on the game. And beyond him, you're like, I'm really living and dying with Kyle Kuzma here. And that's not something that I like to do personally, but live your life.

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The heroic language that reminds me of in Shams' report about Dame coming back, amazing, colon. It was like the language of the blood thinner thing, which is amazing, is very impressive. I have no idea how he's medically cleared to play. The framing of it from Shams, with all due respect, was a little bit like Trump's annual physical to me.

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That was the kind of vibe I was getting about like, everything's great.

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I mean, that's kind of why I don't want to over-index on that Clippers-Warriors game too much, because the Clippers just became one of the toughest matchups for basically every team in the Western Conference field over a matter of like five weeks. They're a really tough Jokic matchup.

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Like, Zoo plays him pretty well, I think gives them a chance to play it honestly if they want to try to do that, and I suspect they will. This feels like a temperature check series to me on how you feel about Jamal Murray and Michael Porter Jr.

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Long term, long term in particular, but even in within this series, like we know Denver's depth is an issue. We know that they're not once they go beyond their seventh guy, even sometimes their sixth guy, to be honest with you, things can get dicey. But if Jamal Murray isn't fully healthy and he's kind of inching his way back and more or less play off Jamal Murray, they're going to have problems.

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And if Michael Porter Jr. has those games where he's a little spotty and the shot isn't hitting and all of a sudden he has 11 points in a mostly ineffectual game, that's a huge problem for Denver against this Clippers team that all of a sudden just has all of the pieces to put it together.

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I'm trying to talk around it. I'm trying to be nice.

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Aaron Gordon erasure, but largely I agree with you.

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We have.

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With Harden, too, honestly. Harden did not have great games against the Nuggets this year, but Kawhi didn't play in any of them, if I believe so. Having Kawhi on the floor dramatically changes every matchup, changes the defensive priorities. And in particular, I like to tie this into what you were saying, Bill, about Jokic and foul trouble. It's not just like battling Zoo on the block.

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It's not just fighting him, fending him off for rebounds. It's you're going to be in a ton of pick and roll all night because James Harden is going to have the ball that is going to be his primary use. Like you're going to have to hang in that and not get too handsy along the way. And every foul for Jokic could mean a lot in the same way that every foul for Zoo could too.

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They can get away with playing Batum at the five sometimes, especially the non-Jokic minutes are such a wild card in terms of what kinds of fake centers you can throw out there. I don't see a reason why that has to work that way.

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I think Murray could be on the table, too.

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Different financial commitment for sure. But I think if the Nuggets lose, and granted, this is a series they well could lose. Like a 4-5 in which both are quality Western Conference teams. It's not like a disgrace to lose to the Clippers. But clearly this is a team operating with incredible urgency that sees some pretty dramatic changes in its future. Why not?

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trade Murray or Porter as a part of that if you think the outcome is disappointing. If you think those guys can't take you anywhere, then you gotta start somewhere with the actual roster.

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He's one of the best playoff performers in modern NBA, if not overall NBA history.

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We led with Steph instead.

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Absolutely. I think there's a real possibility, and I'm not willing to stake all of these claims at once, but there's a real possibility that all three of these are upsets. That every non-OKC series in the West is an upset. I'm not just zooming past the Wolves at all. I think the Lakers, understandably, given just the collective brainpower between Luka and LeBron and the way that they...

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really rip you apart over the course of seven games, deserves a ton of respect and a ton of deference as we're kind of parsing out what's going to happen in this series. Ant is still pretty unguardable, and you can pressure him, and you can trap him, and you can try to make him do difficult things, but this is a pretty capable, pretty deep team.

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They also require you to bet heavily on Julius Randle being good in the playoffs. They require you to really believe in Rudy Gobert's ability to hang in this matchup. I'm probably a little more bullish on that than most. Hold on, wait a second.

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I don't think he's a train wreck. I think most of the time that Rudy Gobert gets dragged across the coals, it's mostly misplaced frustration at like perimeter people who can't guard anybody or matchups that happen for like three minutes of a game. But overall, he may not be always playing up to defensive player of the year standards.

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It's Rockets Warriors. I just think it has all the juice you could ask for, all the animosity you could ask for. A lot of people who are just kind of assholes to play against, and I mean that in a very complimentary way. So between the jet fuel athleticism against the old savvy champions angle, plus all of that going on, I find it hard to pick anything else.

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And frankly, he hasn't been that guy this year or last year really at all. He's kind of come down a level, but he's a good NBA player and he's a good player who has some leverage in a series like this. Like I think he will make an impact on it.

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Yeah, I think you hope that that's the case. And from a coaching perspective, you're right. You're doing kind of everything you can to prime your players for that possibility. Bottom line, your team has Anthony Edwards, Jane McDaniels, Rudy Gobert, Julius Randle. These are highly emotional players, if we're all being honest about the way that they operate and conduct themselves.

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They've had fights in huddles. They've punched things and gotten injured. This is the core of your team, and you're going to ride and die with some of that emotion, and there's inevitably going to be a fallout during the really, really tough moments. But maybe you can get away with that for a series. Maybe you can get away with that for a couple games at a time.

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I think you just have to kind of ride the right wave with it.

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I would pick the Lakers, but I think it's going to be long. I'm very tempted to pick a Lakers in seven.

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Hell yeah.

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This is the thing. I don't know that there's an age at which you are safe from an Isaiah Stewart elbow. If it comes down to that, it really doesn't matter if you're a child. It doesn't matter if you're elderly. These guys are going to spill over. And I respect the hell out of it.

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It's a real climb. I think there's places where the Pistons are going to have definite advantages. That's a matchup that really suits Cade. I think he's going to play great. I think overall the orchestration is going to be there. But keeping up with the Knicks and kind of the sheer firepower of what they're capable of, with all of their guys out there is brutal.

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And I think even more brutal now, they've had a weird season, they've been up and down, they haven't all been together. They've played a lot together, but in terms of the chemistry of that core five, hasn't been as scintillating as I might have hoped coming into this season. But then you get stretches where Brunson's out and OG Ananobi transforms into this totally different guy.

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Maybe there's a huge payoff for that, right? Maybe there's a payoff for those minutes where Towns is in foul trouble, Brunson has to leave the game for a bit or is just kind of being locked up in a certain matchup. Maybe Ron Holland or Asar Thompson's all up in his jersey for long stretches. And now it's the OG Ananobi show.

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And I think that's something that the Pistons just don't have counters for, is that sort of layered offensive threat.

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Yeah.

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You know, I thought it was a real slog mid-season. It just, it kind of lost me.

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She's a lawyer who's just trying to make it work. But Nicole Kidman's three episode arc, I thought that was pretty good.

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I prefer my Sheridan modern, if I'm being honest with you. I prefer it with, you know, guns a-blazing, but in a more modern setting. Maybe a drug runner is involved, maybe not.

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You know what makes all that stuff better is when Dylan Brooks karate chops it. You know, just take some body blows from a Steven Adams screen. You know, Ahmed Thompson blocking your shit. I'm sure it's going to go great for everybody.

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What does an impactful person back then look like?

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I mean, there's a case in that other than what you may have been led to believe by the way that he just shellacked the Bulls, this team can't really score in most games. And so I don't put it past them on any night to have like a 15-point quarter followed by a 13-point quarter.

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I don't think they care. I think they probably... I mean, look, yeah. If given the choice, one of them is maybe a little less physically taxing than the other, but I don't think the Cavs are having a problem with either of those teams.

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No, no, no. Like, they would be in. Oh, they would be in.

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I think year to year, it's just impossible to know. And so they keep the option open for the most possible good games and some junk is going to filter in. Like we're just going to have to sit through it, I think.

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I don't know. Nico Harrison said they were a championship level team for two and a half quarters. What more compelling evidence do you need? Yeah.

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I think they'd rather play Dallas.

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I think they'd rather play the team that basically doesn't have functional point guards, that's starting Najee Marshall out of necessity, that's running Brandon Williams out there, who's played relatively well, but there's a reason why when you play against anyone who's not the Kings and you're the Mavs, you struggle to get the ball anywhere it needs to go in the half court.

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They just don't have enough, not just spacing, but the floor balance is kind of busted. They don't have enough playmaking in general right now. I think that would have been the case even if Kyrie was healthy, to be honest with you, but it's especially true now.

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Dagnall's been great.

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I did Atkinson one, Emi Odoka two, Bickerstaff three. But Dagnall's been great. Ty Lue has been great. I think Dagnall in particular, balancing all the injuries that OKC had this season, maintaining an elite high effort, high intensity defense over the entire course of the run, and helping their young players get better. That's just not something that a lot of coaches can do all at once.

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So he deserves a ton of credit.

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Sure.

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It's reliant on how you parse 12 shots. That's what the clutch player of the year is.

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I had Pritchard. I think Pritchard does a lot of what Beasley does at a more or less similar level. Not quite the three-point volume. What Beasley's doing is pretty exceptional in that way. But a great three-point shooter himself, plus holds his own defensively, plus drives offense off the dribble. I just think he's more versatile than Beasley at the end of the day.

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Please tell me that's not a thing.

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I mean, he's been great. But he's kind of always been great at those things, though.

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I had Zoo actually, number one.

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He was good, but I wouldn't have put him anywhere close to all defense last year, for example. I thought he was really solid, but now he's all defense. Now he's putting up massive numbers. Now he's still one of the most impactful rebounders in the league, but has taken an even bigger jump in terms of what that means to a team. I think he's been incredible.

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Okay, I'm feeling better. I'm worried. I'm worried where you're going, but I have hope.

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I had Mobley, yeah. Bill, where did you have Amin? That was the second team, right? All-defense second team?

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Yeah, why not? Yeah.

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They're extremely fake.

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So JJJ not in either then?

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Damn, none. I think he's in the group that could have like a first team argument. I think, you know, it's on that borderline where you're either going to go Amen, Jaron Jackson, Zoo, someone in that category. But I think he's got to be there. I think he's got to be their second team. Sorry, go ahead.

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Now we're talking. The Kia reps are just popping off right now.

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It's really jarring.

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I think you have to flag it and kind of kick the tires on it. But ultimately, you circle back to the fact that this is LeBron James. And you can see so much of the impact he has on the game. He's not a subtle player. He has the ball a lot. He makes incredible plays that no one else can make. I think it's worth looking at. But the Lakers rotation has been so funky all year.

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I think there's just a lot of noise in it, to be honest with you.

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I think they've kind of always been that team, and they've shown some of those limitations as far as, you know, how much do you trust Golden State in the half court? The good news is, probably you trust the Rockets less in terms of executing their half court offenses. So this matchup works for them, but I agree with you, they're very small. The Kuminga element is such a

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Incredible.

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Definitely.

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It's a lot of Clippers, even for a great Clippers season. Especially at Halliburton's expense. It will surprise no one, given my Pacers advocacy, that I have Halliburton. I actually have him on my second team. Wow. He is the style of play for a 50-win team. Yeah. Like, that's a pretty compelling case. He doesn't have a straightforward one-on-one game and that makes him kind of a funky player.

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But he has a comprehensive winning effect on everything that's happening around him. And Harden has some of that, too. I want to be fair. Like, Harden... Harden handling and shouldering as much as he did is what lets you play Chris Dunn as much as you do. It's what lets you play Derek Jones Jr. as much as you do. It's what lets you get away with all these other guys slotting into their roles.

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And so the usage kind of efficiency trade-offs of that are not always going to look great for Harden. But the impact is there and it's substantial. But him and Zu over Halliburton... I think the only way to do it is to do what you did, which is construct an entirely new set of rules by which you need to put a center on the team to make it look like an actual basketball team.

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What could go wrong?

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Such a perfect encapsulation of the Warriors, who I think at every turn have prioritized rowing in the same direction, philosophical alignment, as opposed to, oh, what's like the other counter element that we can bring in to give us a different speed, a different punch? Other coaches, other teams, other structures might welcome a Jonathan Kuminga type under those circumstances.

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For Curry more than Edwards. I think Ant for me is like maybe a slight cut below these guys.

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But also, is he really the answer? You know, if you're struggling with a LeBron or you're struggling with a Luka or one of these teams that have big wings at any point in the playoffs, if you're struggling with Tari Eason, for that matter, is Jonathan Kuminga really the solution? I'm still a little skeptical of that, even though I respect the talent.

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I also voted Jokic. I think Shea did, as you said, every single thing you need to do to win MVP. But sometimes you play at the same time as Nikola Jokic. And I mean, this is where every voter is so different. For me, if you are definitively the best player in the world, and Jokic is, having a season representative of being the best player in the world...

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The NBA Playoffs Mega-Preview. Plus, Awards Picks With Rob Mahoney, Chris Ryan, and Brian Windhorst

I kind of start there, and you have to have the burden of proof to overcome it. And I think Shea got as close as I can imagine a player possibly getting with the season that Jokic had. Like, that is an incredibly compelling case.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The NBA Playoffs Mega-Preview. Plus, Awards Picks With Rob Mahoney, Chris Ryan, and Brian Windhorst

what the Thunder were overall, a 68-win team, how dominant their defense was, and his role in that, especially juxtaposed with Jokic, who has not been good defensively all season. But the way that Jokic carries that team is totally unique. And overall, his production, I think, is just something that is really, really hard to talk your way around or out of.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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And so I don't feel great about it, but I also don't think I'm ever going to be at the point where I'm losing sleep over voting for Jokic for MVP. As long as he's playing like this, I'm going to be at peace with that. Even if it means someone who also very well could have and I think will be MVP was not number one on my ballot.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The NBA Playoffs Mega-Preview. Plus, Awards Picks With Rob Mahoney, Chris Ryan, and Brian Windhorst

Well, the one quirk in that, though, was that LeBron was the best player in the league and did have that acclaim, and Derrick Rose won. And this, look, Shea is not Derrick Rose. This is not that. Shea is absolutely worthy and not just a narratively driven winner. He has literally everything you would want on the resume.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The NBA Playoffs Mega-Preview. Plus, Awards Picks With Rob Mahoney, Chris Ryan, and Brian Windhorst

Bill, you said you had seven Thunder players on your top 100 ballot. Is Aaron Wiggins one of those players?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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Oh, I love Kaysan Wallace. Okay, now we're talking.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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It's like a luxury for them. Maybe their third or fourth best defender, which I think is a real state in terms of what the Thunder are right now.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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One other thing about the Jokic case, too, that I've seen going around. I get that the Thunder ran away with the West, and they deserve credit for that, and Shea deserves credit for that. When was a 50-win season not good enough to win MVP?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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I think they're just going to win. I think this is their year.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The NBA Playoffs Mega-Preview. Plus, Awards Picks With Rob Mahoney, Chris Ryan, and Brian Windhorst

It doesn't surprise me. I think... I take everything you're saying about the physicality, the athleticism. I want to reinforce both of these things can be true. The Rockets have had an amazing season that has been super fun to watch in terms of a young team that's just well ahead of the curve.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The NBA Playoffs Mega-Preview. Plus, Awards Picks With Rob Mahoney, Chris Ryan, and Brian Windhorst

But if you are a young team that's ahead of the curve, I don't want to see a Steph Curry in a series, a Jimmy Butler in a series, a Draymond Green in a series. There's a level of collective savvy there, especially between those three, that has been so comfortable and so natural. We've seen them run these... just seamless three-man actions as if they've been playing together for years.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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And that's where I think you get some of those random points, right? If those three guys are in concert, Quentin Post is going to spring open for some threes. Gary Payton's going to, you know, go baseline for some dunks and get some cuts. Like, you're going to get random points out of that stuff because the Rockets eventually are going to freak out.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

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And so it doesn't surprise me that the Warriors are favored, despite being, you know, the undercard in the series. I just think there's so much respect for them. And there's so much even sentimental value, as you were saying, Chris, like... a lot of us kind of want to see it. And I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of betters kind of want to see it.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The NBA Playoffs Mega-Preview. Plus, Awards Picks With Rob Mahoney, Chris Ryan, and Brian Windhorst

Oh, my God.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The NBA Playoffs Mega-Preview. Plus, Awards Picks With Rob Mahoney, Chris Ryan, and Brian Windhorst

You don't know Guy Santos' background. He could have played high-level competitive basketball anywhere.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The NBA Playoffs Mega-Preview. Plus, Awards Picks With Rob Mahoney, Chris Ryan, and Brian Windhorst

Yeah. Jalen Green also will think it's him. This is kind of part of the Rockets conundrum is they don't have a natural level set. Like they don't have a place where when everything goes to shit, the ball finds a certain guy. It's a little bit clawing it out. And sometimes it is like Alper and Shangoon making ugly stuff sort of work and fighting through pressure, fighting through good defense.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The NBA Playoffs Mega-Preview. Plus, Awards Picks With Rob Mahoney, Chris Ryan, and Brian Windhorst

I don't really trust their half-court offense at all in terms of the first shot. The question with them, as we kind of saw in that Memphis game for Golden State as well, is how many second chances are you giving up? Especially if they stick as big as the Rockets usually want to play. Like,

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The NBA Playoffs Mega-Preview. Plus, Awards Picks With Rob Mahoney, Chris Ryan, and Brian Windhorst

It may not matter if Fred VanVleet shoots 36% from the field if you're just constantly getting second opportunities.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The NBA Playoffs Mega-Preview. Plus, Awards Picks With Rob Mahoney, Chris Ryan, and Brian Windhorst

Is that want for that moment of the Warriors are back, it's another Steph run, is that a healthy thing for us? I struggle with that of are we clinging to guys like Steph or LeBron? Are we clinging to them in the way that I'm clinging to Tom Cruise jumping out of a jet? Is it coming at the cost of something?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

The NBA Playoffs Mega-Preview. Plus, Awards Picks With Rob Mahoney, Chris Ryan, and Brian Windhorst

You know what I mean?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Part of my criteria in voting for Jokic was, I think he's the best player in the world, and I start from that place, and anyone else who I'm going to vote for instead kind of has to prove overwhelmingly that they are the best player instead, or that they had a superior season instead. I thought Shea got really close, and I couldn't quite get there. Me too. But ultimately, this does confirm that.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I think Jokic has been the best player in the playoffs overall. I think he's been the best player in the series overall. Him or Julius Randle. It's now possible. One of the two. You know, Shea had a tremendous game. And if anything, I thought him running into the wall in this particular game had much more to do with the fact that his teammates couldn't hit shots.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

And so all of a sudden, you see the crowd coming in around him. He can't get to the basket anymore. But I thought this was Shea's most successful game

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

breaking down the defense getting all the way to the rim he was pretty relentless in that regard and I wonder how much of that had to do with he was kind of holding his right hand for a lot of this game it seemed like he injured it or jammed it somehow we'll have to see kind of what happens with that and so maybe he was looking to drive more than shoot but I thought it suited him I thought he did a really good job with that part of his game which has not been a given against this Denver defense for a lot of these contests

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I think it was nobody with all due respect to the Grizzlies.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I mean, he doesn't really guard Jokic all that much. They want Isaiah Hardenstein on him as much as possible. So for me, it's more, can Chet do the right balance of... Finishing, like, contested finishes inside against other bigs like Jokic, which we saw he kind of struggled with some of that in this game. Will he have opportunities to beat smalls inside who are kind of cross-matched against him?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

And Denver's gotten away with that for parts of this series overall, like putting smaller guys on him for stretches, whether it's man or zone. And then the threes are going to be what they are. Like, that's going to come and go a little bit, and you're going to have to live with that balance. With Chet, it's always like, where are you finding the other offense?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I thought he found enough in this one overall, but... But a new game is a new day. You're going to have to do that all over again. You have to run the court in transition and finish as well as you did all over again. Those two guys are such huge variables in a game like this. Just because we haven't seen them do it in the way that we've seen Jamal Murray do it before.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Probably Michael Porter Jr. ?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

He is better than he's playing. I think the trade-off is Christian Brown, regardless of whether he's hitting threes or not, will get you cutting baskets, will get you transition baskets, will play great defense, whether it's at the top of that zone or guarding someone like Shea for the majority of these games. He's going to provide value. When Michael Porter Jr.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

isn't hitting shots, he doesn't provide a lot of value. And you saw some plays where he was just getting not only beat on ball, but beat backdoor, beat in rotation. They need that. And Christian Brown, I think, to me, is there. His offensive contributions are going to vary a little bit. You have the rock-solid top three. Then you have whatever you get offensively from Christian Brown.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

And then it's, how do we string together enough minutes? to make this rotation work. And not only did you get good Julian Strother minutes in this game, I thought you had really good Peyton Watson minutes for stretches. Offensively, not exactly what you want, but his block on J-Dub in transition in the fourth quarter was one of the biggest plays of the game.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Their collective ability, that group, to survive the non-Jokic minutes at the beginning of the fourth quarter, again, a crucial Julian Strother time, as crazy as that sounds. unbelievably important in a game like this. And so the cascading effect to all the other Nuggets, those are guys I expect a little less of. Michael Porter Jr. kind of needs to give them 20 to 30 playable minutes.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

And we're going to see if that's possible for him in Game 7 or not.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Interesting.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I just think you should keep up with the most recent research on these subjects. You should have to go to a conference or something.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

The tricky thing with him is you want to give him credit and be forgiving of the energy he plays with. He is attacking these possessions in ways that is undeniable and is valuable in series like the Clippers won at points in this series as well.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

But you're seeing a weird tension point with him, specifically with the Thunder, where the Thunder want to get out and run so badly and Russell Westbrook wants to both drive and hit the offensive glass so badly. Available. And he's going and he'll miss a lot of those opportunities. And great, those are opportunities he's creating out of thin air with effort.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

But then he ends up on the ground and two other nuggets are trying to hit the offensive glass. And now all of a sudden you have three on one for the Thunder going the other way. And so you have this like push and pull of, yeah, you want those energy and effort plays. but maybe not all the time and maybe not consecutively.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

That was big. First quarter he comes in and there are like five straight Russ possessions. Turnovers, misses. I think he got to the free throw line one of those times.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

you just have to hope that it offsets at some point, right? That the other plays swing the other way and you get enough good rust to counteract the bad rust, but they're going to have to ride him regardless. Like he's going to have to play significant minutes in game seven. He's going to play a role in game seven. Hopefully he does a little bit better on balance than he did in this one.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Cause I thought, I thought this was a rough rust performance.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

No, no. I think we can give Julian Strother credit for this one as the Julian Strother game.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Five guys makes sense. I could easily see this being a Denver game where only six players for the Nuggets play considerable minutes. One of them, as you said, being Russ in addition to that starting five. On OKC's side, I am fascinated by the J-Dub element. I think Crusoe is someone I just don't bet against in games like this. Lou Dort, I really respect the way Lou Dort will fire. Like,

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

He's being challenged to hit shots. That's going to go whichever way it goes, whichever way the wind is blowing. His confidence, though, does not get shaken. And I think Oklahoma City needs some of that in this game seven. I feel like part of the issue with J-Dub and Chet both, you've seen both of those guys over these last two games air ball threes, like bad, bad misses.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

And you've seen a lot of Thunder players up and down the rotation, like missed dunks, missed layups, like very makeable stuff for them. Of course, if enough of those plays swing, they're going to win a game like this one. But moreover, they just need guys who are going to have nerves of steel. I trust Shea in those moments. I trust Lou Dort and Caruso in those moments.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I trust Isaiah Hartenstein in those moments. I think even though Jokic is... Having a Nikola Jokic series, Oklahoma City just isn't in this at all, I don't think, without Hardenstein playing him defensively the way he is. Wearing him down to the degree that one can has been so important. But I think they just need that kind of nerve that you're going to get from Jamal Murray.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

And on the Murray side, he almost was a scratch in this game because of an illness. Is Jamal Murray feeling better in 48 hours or is he at the start of something that's going to get worse in 48 hours?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Yeah, maybe not quite that extreme. But the desperation for Denver... And we saw this in Game 5. They just needed somebody who could hit a couple of shots. And they would have probably pulled out that game or at least made it even more competitive. Him coming up with basically a solo run in the most competitive, tensest part of this game just cannot be overstated, the importance of that.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Yes. Yeah, for sure.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

That part was true.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

That's definitely the model. The mental game has to be a huge portion of it for Denver. In the case of a Nuggets win, it is wearing them down. It is putting enough pressure on the Thunder where they have that second or third quarter swoon where they just go completely off the rails.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I just think with OKC, that's pretty tough to do generally unless you see kind of... Even in this game, they weren't hitting shots, but I thought they stuck to their process. I thought they kept executing on defense. It's a good point.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

They are who they are for a reason in terms of their dominant regular season and the Nuggets who they are for a reason in terms of their ability to pull out series like this. And so I think the Thunder are a tough team to take off the tracks. I think that there are going to be times where, yeah, they show their youth more than others.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I would be shocked if OKC gets like really shaken up to the point that they just fold. That just doesn't really seem to be in the DNA of this group.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

And as you're saying, Russell Westbrook did have the kind of performance where... He almost lost this game. He played poorly enough for extended stretches that it legitimately swung the momentum of it. And if Denver had to stretch his minutes or his importance even more because Julian Strother wasn't playing well enough, because Michael Porter Jr.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I think that's what it is. Like, I'm not sure if Denver is definitively the second best team or not. You know, assuming the Oklahoma city is the best, like if these are the top two teams or not, but if Oklahoma city can survive this, that they are unquestionably good enough to win it all. I mean, I thought that regardless, I picked them as the, my, my choice to win the title coming in.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I maintain that. I think they will pull out game seven, but this is what you got to do to do it. Like, I mean, this is nut-crunching time of the highest order, a game seven against the Nuggets, and they're going to have to prove it every possible way.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Yeah. How are you feeling?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

That was awesome.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Yeah. But he kind of needed to bottom out like this. He needed to be so bad that they had to take him out. And they did. And they benefited immediately from the Luke Cornett menace.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

didn't hit a couple shots, we could be having a very different mood right now for this pod.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Okay. That makes sense. Kata is not going to save you. I want to put that off to the side right now. Over the corpse of Porzingis? I think the answer is neither. I think, to me, the takeaway from this last game was they just need to be comfortable with some of those smaller looks. Like the three guards plus Jalen Brown plus one of the bigs. That was a pretty successful formula.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

And so as much as you can stretch those guys out, and that's going to be a lot of...

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I think it works sometimes, but not others. Not in this series. Yeah, this is not the time for it, unfortunately. So yeah, I think whoever between Horford and Cornette is kind of better in that moment for the lineups on the floor, that's all great. And then otherwise, you're just trying to stretch out the guard minutes as much as you possibly can.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

You're also hoping for another Derek White explosion, which he's certainly capable of and is just one of the best shooters in the league, so I'm never going to put that past him. But the combination of incendiary Derek White game One of the best two-way games we've seen from Jalen Brown in quite some time. A good Peyton Pritchard game. A great Luke Cornett game.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Like, that's a lot of ifs that have already been stacked on top of each other.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I think Keita's got to be out of there.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Yes.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

It's incredibly hard to do. He played with a level of calm and precision that is not a staple of his game.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

We've obviously never seen that level of playmaking from him before. This is a career high, so the high watermark is there. But just in terms of the way you approached it, as you described, where there's an urgency to the way he's playing, there's a force to the way he's playing, but he really never felt out of control.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

And the Tatum contrast that you highlight, I think, is really interesting because you're right that he can be a little deliberate. And when you're winning, when you're going to titles, when you're having an incredible regular season, that deliberate pace feels like confidence. And when you're frittering away leads or you're blowing these games against the Knicks, it feels a little too delicate.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

It feels a little too indulgent in terms of getting the offense set up. Sometimes you just have to get out there and play and flow. And you have to understand that... with where the Celtics are, they can't leave anything out there. Like they can't leave anything on the floor as far as like options, easy baskets, quick transition, like quick striking plays. They need all of that shit.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

And so like they have to go fast and they have to play some more offensive oriented lineups relative to the two big stuff that we were talking about. Like they have to have that sort of Jalen Brown. And clearly he's capable of it, but asking him to do all of that again is a lot. I just want to say that.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I thought those were really good Deuce minutes, honestly. And they desperately needed that. He's had some real cold stretches in these playoffs. And so getting some positive momentum for Deuce, another team that just needs rotation players in the worst way. And one of them is Mitchell Robinson, who is in some cases getting fouled off the floor, in some cases going six of six from the line.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

We salute you, Mitch. They're desperate for bodies.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I agree with that. And you can see that, look, from a Celtics perspective, this game five, you're coming off of this catastrophic franchise altering injury. There is a little bit of like a pride that kicks in, an adrenaline that kicks in, a collectivism of like, you got to go out and like make your group proud and your fans and your city, however far you want to extend that. Not in our house.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Not in our house. It's a moment, right? Like the response game after the Tatum injury is a moment. Now all that energy has dissipated. You let down a little bit. You did the thing where you proved everybody wrong. You had this impressive game. Do it again at MSG. I think it's going to be just incredibly challenging. I think that place is going to be rocking. I fully expect...

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I fully expect the Knicks to win it, to be honest with you. I just think that they're good enough. I think they will get enough from the OG McHale combo. Or if you want to extend it again, OG McHale, Josh Hart, like kind of two of those three guys have to have some kind of offensive game for them to win usually. And I think they're going to get it in this one.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

You didn't think their first, like the first half of game five, I thought they were pretty good.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I mean, sometimes you lose because Josh Hart made three.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

It does seem more far-fetched. I think anybody would love to see it, just in terms of any great player reaching those kinds of heights again and again and again as the games increase in stakes, as it becomes harder and harder to do it. That would be a Jalen Brown coronation moment for a guy who just came off a Finals MVP. That would be incredible. I just don't see it.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I don't think he has that much in the cards.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I would agree with that. And I think as far as bigger statements go, too, Jason Tatum has a long road ahead of him in terms of his rehab. And the Celtics have a lot of decisions to make as far as what this team is going to look like during his absence, if they need to make radical changes sooner than later.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

For sure.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

understandably like it forces you to ask some really difficult questions about the construction of the team if those questions start from a place of holy shit Jalen Brown just did something we didn't even know he could do he occupied a role for our team we didn't even know he was doing at that level that consistently okay then we're getting rid of some of the darkness you know we're staving off a little bit of it I think a lot of those questions still remain but they become a little bit simpler

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

That's the thing. And I would even set it up differently where it's like if J-Dub isn't performing, then you now need three wildcard players to do well. And so, yeah, you get a good Case and Wallace stretch in the second quarter. You're getting some good Alex Caruso minutes. But like when it comes down to it, Not enough guys can hit shots. You know, you don't get the same like Lou Dort streak.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Wait, in the morning it shaves time off your recovery? Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I'm just telling you, how does it affect if mercury is in retrograde?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I will believe that when I see it. That's ambitious.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I don't think he's going to be 90% of what he was in April.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

It's true. We got you off the ledge. I can't also like knock the drink out of your hand. You know, like we're just trying to cope here ultimately. And I support you in that effort.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I think mostly the same, oddly enough. Look, anytime you're getting to the conference finals, especially in consecutive seasons, that's an incredible accomplishment that has nothing to scoff at. They did it by being the Wolves in every possible respect. Completely overwhelming in some moments. like completely baffling in other ones.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

You don't have the same like Chet cashing in on his three. Like enough of those plays have to swing in your favor to win a game like this. And J-Dub just straight up for a player of his caliber, an all NBA caliber guy in the regular season, wasn't good enough to win this game. And that happens sometimes.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

And I say that, you know, Julius Randall included as part of that, even though he may well be the best player in the world or the second best behind Ant in some moments, those guys are capable of incredible mistakes and miscues and passes that don't make any sense.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

They're also capable of just bullying you and overwhelming you with scoring and collectively as a group, like their defensive acuity and the precision and the effort that they play with. I'm so impressed by, um, So I would say I was kind of feeling this way about them down the stretch of the regular season. They were really pulling together.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Julius Randle, this has been a building momentum now for a couple of months consecutively. And so they've been that kind of team. The question is, are they going to play the kind of opponent where all of those mistakes are going to catch up to them? This is something we were talking about on group chat, too, where it's like they kind of know how to play the Nuggets.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I'm not so convinced they know how to play the Thunder. And so the fact that this thing is going to a game seven and will be a quick turnaround into a series for them, they could have to figure out how to address OKC very quickly.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Yeah. We just saw what Draymond did to like Alper and Shangoon and locked him up. Right.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

It was alarming, honestly.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Maybe.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

That would be fascinating. I think they could probably get away with that in that matchup, right? Just because Rudy and Chet feels more viable. And then obviously for Denver, I think Aaron Gordon is a pretty good physical matchup.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

But as you just alluded to, Draymond's a pretty good physical matchup. And he was just getting blown off his spot every time Julius dipped that shoulder and was just getting right into the lane, getting to easy looks. The combination for Julius Randle, and this has always been in his game, he was just doing a lot of wayward things and taking a lot of bad shots that were counteracting this stuff.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

It certainly happens with players who are as young as he is, but it's a reality of Oklahoma City's situation.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

He's nimble in a way that basically no one as strong as him is on offense. Like the way he's able to move and change directions very quickly in addition to being that burly, an incredibly rare combination to have short of like LeBron James.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I think that's the counterpoint is game one. And maybe it's like Steph leaving kind of takes the air out of it for them. But they weren't playing particularly well when Steph was in that game. I don't know. I do think there is some of that, right? I think it's true of a lot of teams, especially one that's as, like,

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Minnesota, we don't think of as a young team, but there are a lot of players in that group that are still relatively early in their careers that are quite emotional as players, that you could see the letdown of having Steph taken off the floor or having a subpar opponent change the way that they think about attacking or kind of just put the back on their heels a little bit where they're not quite going as hard as they need to.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

That's a group that has to go full bore to be as dominant as they ultimately want to be and as we've seen them be at their best moments in these playoffs.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

It's another one of those like, what do we expect? You know, like he kind of is this guy where he doesn't want to have to score 30. That's not the way he would prefer to play basketball. And so when he's kind of forced to, kicking and screaming, dragged into it, he can't just do it game after game after game.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

And we saw even in his best case scenario, by the end of that game, he was kind of out of steam. Like he didn't really have what it took to finish it. It's hard work putting up 30 plus and closing and bring like every crucial basket down the stretch, specifically in a game like that, where the Golden State role players weren't exactly all carrying their end of the bargain either.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

And so Jimmy Butler is a great, second best player on a team behind Steph. Like a great match, a great fit. I think they're going to be in a great position going into next season. They need to make some, some like minor addresses to the rotation, ultimately get another team that needs a couple of more rotation worthy guys. But I love the way Jimmy Butler fits.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I just don't love him as the defining option of a team without Steph.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

You think there's enough proof of concept there for somebody to bite?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I mean, you're seeing Indiana, New York seize on these opportunities, right? And there's going to be another version of that next year when somebody else gets injured or as you're saying, like maybe the Celtics will be at the highest end of that mix. Maybe they won't. I get why somebody would talk themselves into Kuminga. I think you phrased it the right way.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Are you looking for a scoring forward? Because if you're looking for an athletic do-it-all forward, you're going to end up with a guy who's going to average like 16.5 points and get two rebounds a game, despite the fact that he's 6'8 and should be able to outjump everybody, but just does not.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

So if you can calibrate your expectations accordingly, that he will run the floor and run some possessions and put up some points for you, I think Kuminga can absolutely be that guy. Can he be anything else? I remain a little unconvinced.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I'm going to take OKC as much as it pains me again to vote to pick against Jokic, pick against Aaron Gordon and Jamal Murray. Like those are guys that you want to ride or die with in games like this. But I think the Thunder have enough and I think we're going to see it. We're going to get a moment from them in response.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

So kind of a Celtics situation. Like, you know, if it's close, the Knicks have won those games. And if this game is close, the Nuggets would win this game, you're saying. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. I could absolutely see it. I mean, Nikola Jokic in crunch time is as good as it gets. Who are we to stand in the way of Aaron Gordon and one more potential game winner? Clearly he has it in him.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

They might not. We may have more Nikola Jokic left in this run.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

God, I don't even know. I think we're delayed because normally we do group chat on Saturday nights. Our first no playoff game day this coming Saturday. So we're moving our group chat to Monday.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I don't even know how to do that anymore. I'm a shell of a human being, but I'm going to try to drag myself out of my apartment.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I think it's still The Last of Us right now. Although Poker Face is coming in quite strong. I'm enjoying the start of that. Oh, okay.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I mean, I don't think it's either of those doors. Give me a door C. I mean, door C, the Nuggets are really good. And yes, they have question marks beyond the top three or four guys, but those top three or four know what they're doing, know how to play together, know how to find all of the inroads to playoff success. And so this feels like a very natural graduation point for Oklahoma City.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

They're either going to be able to beat a team like that or they're not. And they're either going to be able to overwhelm a team like that or they're not. And I thought there were stretches of this game where you could see the Thunders completely mucking up Denver's pace of play, the flow of their offense, disrupting their defense by extension.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Like all the pieces were there during that run you were talking about. And then the Nuggets just like reeled it back in. One Julian Strother bucket at a time. An incredible Jamal Murray third quarter that I thought like they do not win this game without it. And ultimately, like they have a calm and a patience mentality. that is really hard to manage against the way Oklahoma City plays defense.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

This is a frenetic defensive front with a lot of activity that can force a lot of turnovers. And until the Nuggets briefly lost their collective minds down the stretch of the fourth quarter, where they were just turning the ball over every possession, they were actually winning the turnover battle in this game.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

And it's like, if that's what the bulk of the game is going to be, Denver is going to win. And I don't think that reflects poorly on the Thunder, just to say they have to be able to match that level of precision in a Game 7.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Maybe so.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I wonder if we'll see more of that from the Thunder, too, in game seven. I mean, obviously, it's a season on the line game. Everyone's going to play a little bit more. But relative to this one, yes, there were a couple of Thunder players who were in foul trouble and that shook up the rotation.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I also thought Mark Dagnall in general was just like trying a bunch of very different stuff from what Oklahoma City usually does. They played some lineups that were smaller than they ever play. There were some lineups with Jalen Williams. J. Will is the only big on the court, which they very rarely, if not never, do effectively in competitive games.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Stuff that we just have not seen from them in the playoffs, including some shorter stints for their key guys, where they were pulled in and out quickly to get a quick blow, to get a quick rest. I'm kind of wondering from a coaching staff perspective for them if they're thinking... we can trust our decision-making a little better if these guys are a little better rested.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

But in doing so, you're trading off some minutes for really good players. And you're trading them for guys who are a little flawed, who are going to have some streaky shooting or some bad turnover problems. And I think those chickens kind of came home to roost for the Thunder a little bit.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I don't even know what that means.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Yes. I think Jalen Williams, he has elements and stretches. And even in this game, he ends up with 10 assists. This is a good playmaking game for Jalen Williams overall. He's still critical in cracking that first line of defense, specifically when Denver is zone. He's a really important part of that equation.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

And yeah, when Shea's off the floor, obviously he's your go-to guy for all of that creation. It just would be a little easier, as you're saying, if you had a backcourt counterpart who's a little bit more comfortable with the ball in their hands. Just a little bit. And you can put Caruso in some of those spots as kind of a trigger man, but he's not a traditional attacking ball handler.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

At least you kind of don't want him to be. Cason Wallace, who, again, I like a lot, can get a little fast and loose with the passing and his handle sometimes. You just start looking around their backcourt rotation, and it's a lot of guys who you trust in certain moments, you trust in certain roles. But there's a reason why Shea has the ball in his hands a lot.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

And one is because he's really good at it. And two is because there just are not a ton of ball-handling alternatives as a primary initiator.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I mean, the Thunder out there is too. Their Aaron Gordon moments, they're counterbalancing forces in terms of clutch play or street play. This is the playoffs. That's what happens. Ultimately, though, I think you're zeroing in on the right factors for Denver, which is like, are they just going to have the energy reserves to finish this thing out when Jokic... Everything is so hard for Jokic.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I wouldn't say he was at any point in this game exactly picking the Thunder apart. It was more Oklahoma City's deciding they're obviously going to crowd the lane and put as many bodies around him as possible. They're going to try to stay attached to Jamal Murray. And they're basically taking away the Aaron Gordon lob from Jokic. And they're just saying...

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

Christian Brown, Russell Westbrook, Michael Porter Jr., Peyton Watson, Julian Strother in this one. We're just going to trust that we can rotate out to you fast enough to mess you up, whether it's taking the shot or putting the ball on the ground. And Denver just won enough of those plays. But it wasn't surgical. It was difficult. It was arduous. It's challenging every single step of the way.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

And they're going to have to do all that again. And they're going to have to do it all again against a team that is younger, that is deeper, that has a little bit to rally, that will have home court advantage. Like the Thunder have a lot of factors kind of swinging in their favor as this thing goes to seven.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

And so it's like you want to trust the kind of veteran know-how of the Nuggets, but it's kind of hard to with a series that's been disbalanced overall.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Denver Survives! Suddenly Dramatic Playoff Weekend Alert With Rob Mahoney

I think that's the area, like, it is a completely separate award. It is a regular season award, as you said. Those are the criteria.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

I think the defense, it does come and go. And I think the rim protection thing is really instructive here because they don't have... By not having a traditional defensive anchor, the only way they play elite defense is flying around, playing with incredible effort and focus all the time. And so it's not a huge surprise that they can't do that every single game.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

It's not a huge surprise they can't chain it together for five games at a time sometimes. It's just going to be... a little bit more of a peaks and valleys kind of experience for them on that end. I think ultimately you're banking on the playmaking. And this is where I can kind of see the logic in the segmenting the game that you're talking about.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

It's like if you have two of the most creative people in the sport, the idea of, oh, I'm going to put these very orderly boxes in place and I'm going to trust these geniuses to navigate it. That's a pretty good premise as far as I'm concerned.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

No, definitely not.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

Well, they certainly don't seem to care about the standings too much.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

If you are any basketball team, you don't want to see OKC until round three or the NBA finals. Those are the only options that you would prefer. But as far as the chicanery goes, that's a real fine line you're trying to walk. To basically get to six and lock in at six is the ideal spot if you're going to be in the four, five, six range.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

Because four and five, yeah, you're going to be potentially roadkill for the Thunder, who look just increasingly incredible, to be honest with you. And I want no part of that team.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

Oh, you're sealed up.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

Okay.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

That's a team with, I would say, three all-defense caliber players on its roster.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

Well, the Clippers are just, the Clippers are no fun to play against for anybody. And frankly, when Kawhi Leonard plays, they just do not lose. Uh, except I think they lost randomly to the Pelicans one time. We don't have to talk about that. Other than that, really just have turned into an offensive buzzsaw in a way that should be terrifying because they were already such a great defense.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

The Wolves, I am really becoming a believer. Whoa, make the case. This was a team that I was really down on come December or so. I just thought the energy with the team was so off. I thought the defense was so underwhelming. I didn't really see the vision in the Randall thing at all. And then all of a sudden, everything's starting to click. Everyone who was hurt is suddenly back and playing well.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

The new additions, both Randall and DiVincenzo in particular, are both really hitting at this point. Randall's playing, I think, some of the best basketball of his career, frankly. I don't know how to feel about the kind of person who is telling you and many people on a podcast they should believe in Julius Randall, playoff performer. That's a big ask of anybody.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

But I find myself, as we're kind of charting the Western Conference landscape, and I'm looking at teams like Golden State and the Lakers, teams that could win a round, but maybe not two or three. I'm seeing teams like Houston that I think can win with the right matchup, but otherwise might be out on their luck if they pull the wrong one.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

Teams like Denver that, frankly, not only do they not care about seeding, they don't seem to be terribly interested in playing defense in a lot of games. And I expect the playoffs will be different, but even still, the personnel is what it is. And I just find my way back to the Wolves. And I'm thinking they have the high-end talent. They have the depth. They have the defense. They have the bodies.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

They have versatility to actually roll with the punches of a playoff series. And frankly, we've seen all this stuff in action in a slightly different form with Cat versus Randall and, you know, no DiVincenzo. I just, I really like what they're putting together. And I think they're playing great basketball right now.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

Nor should you, if we're all being honest.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

He's like falling on his own rake over and over.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

I think the exception to that would be if Denver slides and ends up somehow in the play-in, which is not incomprehensible. These teams are really bunched up.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

They'd have to drop a couple spots. I think the Rockets could give the Nuggets a real run. I think that's a tough matchup for them. And I say this knowing... The Rockets just blew a game against Denver with no Nikola Jokic. I'm acknowledging it. It happened. I don't think it's representative of the matchup.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

I think if you give these perimeter demons a chance to make Jamal Murray's life a living hell for seven games, I think they will do it. I think they have enough size to really gum things up. I think they're so physical. And that's really the question with Houston is what teams would really be bothered by high-end athleticism and high-end physicality?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

And I think Denver might be one of those teams, despite the fact that their lineups are quite big themselves.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

And then you have the Russ turnovers working in your favor. You know, you got some free opportunities on the board.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

Are we still doing the last day of the season? All the games are basically happening at the same time to prevent this sort of chicanery? Is that still going on?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

I mean, all you're really doing is forcing an assistant coach to sit on the back row with an iPad. They're still going to be watching.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

Well, they're healthy for now.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

I mean, look, he's Draymond Green. He deserves consideration. Probably deserves a place on the ballot at the end of the day. I'm more of an Evan Mobley voter at this point. Wow. just the utility of what he brings to that defense, how many people he's constantly bailing out on every defensive possession. The flexibility between the 4-5 is not dissimilar from Draymond.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

I just think he is an absolute monster on that. And Draymond, if Draymond had been playing defensively the way he's played the last, I would say, 15 to 20 games all season, we're having a very different conversation. I don't think the first part of the season, especially the first half, he was quite at this peak elite level. This is still really high-level defensive play.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

I'm not disparaging Draymond Green. He's incredible, particularly on that end of the court. I just don't think he's put together the total body of work for it.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

do you take any responsibility for the perimeter gun shyness after the Marcus Smart debacle? Do you think that's what radicalized all of us?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

There's like 50 people deserving of all defense consideration, and I don't feel great about any of them necessarily as the definitive defensive player of the year. You're right. Without Wemby, there is a vacuum. It's unavoidable.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

I feel like the Thunder... Like, Shea, I agree, is the favorite to win MVP. Probably will win MVP. Otherwise, they suffer from that problem where their team is so good and there's credit going in so many different directions that Mark Dagnall probably isn't going to get the credit he deserves. Lou Dort probably isn't going to get the credit he deserves.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

They have so many good players who are probably going to be under the threshold for games played and so they won't get consideration for various teams and things, but... holy shit, like there's so many places to assign credit for what OKC has done.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

And I think if you want to talk about the reason why they won as many games as they did, it's the professionalism and the intensity they play with every single fucking game. And that either comes from Mark Dagnall or it comes from Shea or both. And if you want to credit either of those guys for that, I think it's more than deserved.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

They did his name with Jalen Williams. He was their center for a fucking month.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

It is going to be a religious experience. Also, first of all, thank you for inviting me on now the third White Lotus Splinter Pod. We've had every permutation of hosts possible. This is the only one left. This is the only one left for the finale.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

Uh, this game was sick, really enjoyed it. Everybody, everybody involved has still got it to the extent that they needed to prove that they still got it. And I mean, uh, the game of Brandon Pajemski's life, one of the games of Austin Reeves's life. I was, this game was weird, but I think representative of both teams and that it was half absolute slog.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

I will say, I don't know if this is great PR and marketing by them, but all the little quotes that are coming out from the cast hinting at the ominous results of the finale had me a little spooked. And again, maybe I'm just being played. I think... The body count or the philosophical fallout is going to be pretty significant. I don't quite know which one yet.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

Did you see any monkeys holding a gun?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

Thank you.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

Thank you.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

Like the, the middle part of this game I thought was really slow and the rhythm of the game felt really disjointed. And yet the shot making was at such a high level. And overall, like the veteran execution was at such a high level by both teams and spots by obviously by the Warriors in greater numbers.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

Thank you.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

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The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

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The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

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The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

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The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

,.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

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The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

1972.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

that's at least changing what the Warriors have to do a little bit now they're like oh shit all right I guess we've got to play Looney for a couple minutes here I think small ball against small ball I just like the Warriors chances more I think so too they're just I mean they're better practiced at it Jimmy Butler included like he was playing this way in Miami for a long time too in stretches uh especially as like a small ball four but when you think about the Mark Williams element or the Jackson Hayes shadow element however you want to define it uh

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

they're guarding Steph so aggressively that he's having to cut and he's having to drive against that kind of top-locking. And so if you have a rim protector there, all those Steph drives don't look so cute anymore.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

Now, that's a really complicated premise to have to navigate for Curry, especially when he has a pelvic contusion or whatever it was he's coming back from, not words I like in conjunction with one another. But he played really well and he was able to play really well because ultimately the Lakers are, they are small ball.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

They also have a certain kind of beef in size in terms of a lot of small forward and power forward shaped guys. But I just have constant questions as to whether that size is real or not. Is it tangible in a way that's going to impact games? Because they are not, by rule, like an offensive rebounding juggernaut. They are not a team that really pushes people around.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

They can create advantages offensively with that size. But if they're not leveraging on a defense, how are they going to survive against some of these higher leverage matchups?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

It's very generous of you. And if you're going to be generous towards somebody, make it the all-time legends who are in our midst. So I can't really argue with it too much. For me, it's more like if you are LeBron, if you are Steph, And I see you sliding towards a team that feels not representative of who you are for your career. Maybe I give it like another look.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

It's like, OK, that doesn't feel quite right. Let's make sure I'm picking Jaron Jackson Jr. over LeBron James. And I feel OK about that. No disrespect to Jaron Jackson Jr. is amazing, but he's not LeBron. So, yeah, they do deserve that, if nothing else, a little courtesy.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

Oh, yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

I think this was the best that he and Butler in particular have played together. And they haven't had, it's like nine or 10 games maybe that they've been able to actually be out there at the same time. And yeah, it's one of those things where Butler is such like an intuitive player in terms of the flow of the game. You put him out there with Draymond and Steph, like he gets how to move.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

He gets how to connect and make the right passes and find the flow. I would not say Jonathan Kuminga is a terribly intuitive player. It took him like three years to figure out how to play with Steph Curry. The idea that he's just going to jump in and now Jimmy Butler, another kind of like iffy spacer, a funky player to have to find your way with. Like Jimmy Butler makes spacers and bigs better.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

Does he make players like him better traditionally? It's a little bit more of a mixed bag. And so the data with them two on the floor coming into this game was mostly terrible. Like those minutes just had not worked. this felt like some real signs of life for a combination that if the Warriors are going to make any kind of run, actually does need to work.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

I think what was funny about what you said about the Lakers of like, if they may not have enough to string together consecutive series with their defense, I feel the exact opposite way about the Warriors, where it's like they need to prove they can string it together offensively to not just beat anyone in a series, but to beat four anyones in a row. That's a lot to ask.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

Well, sometimes that works out. There have been parts of the season where Brandon Pajemski thought he was the player Austin Reeves is right now. And that's now paying off. He's now figuring out his way into the lineup. And it's really working, this new starting group for Golden State.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

I think it's just stringing it all together. And I think the toll it takes on anybody to play small, right? And you see this with the Lakers too. I'm still trying to figure out, are the Lakers the elite defense that they were for like the first month after the Luka trade or the garbage defense we've seen over the last month or so? Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

Golden State isn't that polar, but there are going to be matchups that are tough for them. There's going to be matchups that just require a ton of Draymond Green in particular, a ton of Jimmy Butler in particular. And then you're playing multiple small guards in a lot of these looks. And so all of a sudden, the toll of that for three series in a row, I think might just be a little bit too much.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

And so it's the kind of thing where I think they can beat, they can upset anyone in the first round. I think they have that in them. But chaining those series together against really formidable Western Conference opponents where everyone's kind of in the same relative class, I think that might just be a lot.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

I thought we were trying to overreact.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

For sure. I just like work in progress. Luca though is still pretty damn good. Yeah. He's still creating opportunities that basically no other players on the floor can create. I thought he did a good job of at least of,

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

not stopping short on drives and especially in transition where he can tend to slow things down and want to reset the offense and he was going all the way to the rim whether to set himself up whether to set up threes whether to set up lobs you know really like continuing to push himself a little bit and anytime that he and lebron and reeves get involved in the same like triangulated action it's fucking terrifying like you can see the bones of something that is really really scary

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

It's just, to your point, not there every single play with Luka. The burst isn't there every single play. The touch kind of comes and goes depending on the game, especially if he's hitting the step-back threes. That's always been a huge variable for him. But he's still good enough.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes

And ultimately, it's not a real concern for the Lakers relative to the fact that they have this completely turned-over team that is not going to make sense until they have a chance to go into an offseason and build a Luka-style roster around him.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

I trust the flexibility of that roster, and I trust the people making the decisions, even though one of them is James Harden in a Game 7.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Can I talk out of both sides of my mouth about this a little bit? Yeah. I think the Clippers are the better team, and I think they're going to lose in Game 7.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

They've been trying to get him to play that way in the Olympics for a long time. Right.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

I don't think it's going to happen. But I will say this Clippers win is particularly impressive in that way because Jamal came out hot. He was scorching right from the jump. And it's hard in those Jamal Murray games to then put him back in the box to kind of tamp down His sort of fire starter scoring. I thought they really got a handle on him.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

They made him into more of a passer in a way that, yeah, opened up some shots for other people, but ultimately took some of the momentum out of the Nuggets offense.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Would not be great.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

That sign has already been lit, I think. It's already been pulsating. I think we've been there for a little while.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

That is fair. I think that was kind of my hesitation point as you were saying that. Aaron Gordon, Mr. Nugget, he is part of the DNA of that team. He's also, per the conversation you were having with Zach the other day about Draymond as an amplifier. I think Aaron Gordon is a terrific amplifier. Yeah, you're right.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

the Murray-Jokic pick-and-roll into a three-man action, like really triangulate some interesting stuff out of it. His ability to work the baseline, work out of the dunker spot, but also out of the corners, also kind of turning around like a random junk offense is really one of the only reasons the Nuggets are alive in this series at this point.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

And so I think they would be very hesitant to trade that away, to say nothing of the world that he gives you on defense in terms of his effort and versatility on that end. So pretty important part of the team.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

I don't think the market for Zeke is robust and I'll do respect to him.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

I mean, better because they won by the skin of their teeth. Better because Jalen Brunson is an amazing crunch time performer. So have you seen that play? I assume you've seen the highlight.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

genuinely unbelievable how much space Jalen Brunson creates off of pure torque and crossover against one of the best perimeter defenders in the league and a star Thompson, a guy who had been giving him trouble, even in a high scoring night, basically throughout the game when he was allowed to play by JB Picker staff. And we can talk about that if you want, uh,

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

I'm just like in awe of the space that Brunson creates. And I think this is what fuels some of the conversation we have about him sometimes about the free throw baiting is when he doesn't do it. And he didn't, there's no push off on this play at all.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Like he creates all of that space on his own, no illegal contact, cans it because he's Jalen Brunson, one of the most clutch players that we have in the league right now. I love watching that guy play. I love watching that guy hoop. And when he's doing it in this way, like he's such an undeniable charismatic basketball force.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Or the other assumption would be that the Cat trade had gone really poorly for some reason, which it hasn't. It's gone mostly quite well. Not so well in this game. I thought this was a game in which it was very much Josh Hart and OG and Mikhail completely delivered in all of their peripheral capacities, in addition to Jalen Brunson just going balls out as far as shot creation goes. And then Cat...

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

He was.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

is doing a thing we've seen him do before. We're sort of floating around and he's weirdly passive and he's not involved in the offense. And then when the ball finally comes his way, he's shooting shots five feet behind the three-point line. And then he fouls out and misses a crucial free throw. It's just like a...

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Not a great display of Carl Anthony Towns as a basketball experience, especially going into a series against the Celtics where he has to be one of the Knicks' most important players to actually leverage that matchup. And I really like Cat. I find myself as a Cat defender in a lot of debates and conversations.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

I don't have a lot of faith in his ability to successfully bully and score on and be everything defensively that he needs to be against the Celtics. It's just not... It's not... That matchup does not position him for any kind of success.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

The vibes are real weird right now. Yeah, don't you think? I mean, they, again, barely survived this series. The Pistons had several chances to potentially win it, several chances to, you know, lead and protect the lead. Malik Beasley almost had a look to tie this game at the very end, but kind of like Gary Trent Jr. the ball away at the final second. Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Wow. After that implosion the other day against the Pacers, it unfortunately is. Wrong place, wrong time, but such is life. But I would say as far as the reason that that Celtics optimism and Knicks pessimism exists, in addition to just... you know, not disputing the heart of a champion and kind of the general funkiness that's been going on with New York all year.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

You could see in this series, it's so clear that the Knicks just do not trust basically anything other than a Jalen Brunson ISO. Like, they don't run them consistently enough. Maybe a pick and roll, if you're lucky. But so much of their offense is geared around Jalen having to create every inch of space against defenders. And now...

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

I get it from the sense that Jalen Brunson's an unbelievable ISO scorer. I don't get it in the sense that you just traded for Carl Anthony Towns in the offseason. You just traded for Mikael Bridges in the offseason. And some of those guys are good at kind of creating movement within stale sets.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

But it really doesn't take much of a nudge from the defense to push the Knicks into just ISO, ISO, ISO, ISO repeatedly in a way that is frankly self-destructive.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

You should. I mean, based on Asar Thompson's success in this game, to the extent that there is a Jalen Brunson blueprint, and this guy just went for 40, like it's not a wildly successful blueprint. I thought Asar Thompson did a great job with the minutes that he was given and the assignment he was given.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

And that's kind of the Jalen Brunson story is you try to put as much length as you can get away with. It's just usually wings and bigs have a much harder time hanging with Brunson's footwork. Not so for the Celtics. They have enough bigger, rangier defenders.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

And even the guys who are quote-unquote small, if Drew Holiday is healthy enough to play consistently in that series, that's a tough matchup. Derek White's a tough matchup. They're all tough matchups.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

What is your level of satisfaction with the Tatum rise? As I would say, the preeminent author of the does Tatum have another gear ongoing conversation?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Now you have like a playoff sneer, but... Oh, the sneer is worth like three percentage points in terms of field goal percentage easily. At least a couple of free throw attempts. It's worth its weight in gold.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

You'll get some of that with OG just denying at various points. I'm sorry, in terms of more Tatum, I think there's just so many ways that on both sides they can deny the stars and force you to go to your second option. And for the Celtics, there's many avenues from that point. For the Knicks, you deny Jalen Brunson, you chase him full court, even if that's what they decide to do.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

A couple of them. How many excruciating layups is Russell Westbrook going to miss this season?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

There should theoretically be many entry points for this offense. Realistically, and in terms of the way these games play out, they just kind of wait for Jalen Brunson to get open, and sometimes he doesn't.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

I think all of that's true about the Knicks. I just don't want to diminish the fact that the Pistons grabbed those games, like grabbed those wins and nearly grabbed this one. And I think that that's a team that has a lot to be proud of in terms of the way they acclimated themselves to this series, to this dynamic. You're right. They don't have all of the options that the Knicks do.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

They don't even have, I would say, you know, the highest end experienced playoff shot creation yet. I thought Cade was really, really solid in the series overall. Yeah. But you can see a bit of a distance between him and Jalen Brunson, right? You can see where Cade still has to go as a young creator. And that's really exciting. And you can see, you know, what a star Thompson can be.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

You can see overall for a team that was missing two crucial rotation players, right? Isaiah Stewart barely played in this series. Jaden Ivey did not play in this series. Like, that's a huge deal. And I think saps the Pistons ultimately of their hopes of being more dynamic. And then you get into a position where it's like, when push comes to shove, like,

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Tim Hardaway Jr., Malik Beasley, these guys are your security blankets.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

And for good and fair reason, and yet in this game, it's like he's essential personnel because of who the Pistons have on their roster. And so that's stuff that will gradually improve over time as they start to replace some of the archetypes of these supporting players. And maybe replace him with Jaden Ivey coming back and having another great season. There's young talent.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Ron Holland, who kind of got, I would say, kind of filtered out of the rotation by the end. Maybe he starts to pop in a different way. These are all different in terms of what they're bringing to the table, but I like where the Pistons are headed.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

You think, you think Tobias Harris for Kevin Durant's a pretty solid upgrade?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

I think the hardened elements for sure, but also this felt very much like the Nick Batum game, a game in which Batum completely changed the energy, completely changed the strategy. Tyloo finally pulled the plug on some of Chris Dunn's minutes in the second half, which the series had been kind of building to that point over the last three games or so, to be honest with you.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

That's pretty crazy.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

You just laid out like four different news cycles. I think we're good through June, to be honest with you.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

It felt a little inevitable, but once it happened, you could feel everything the Nuggets were trying to accomplish. It seemed uphill from that point, just from having Nick Batum on the floor. It was crazy.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Sure. And meanwhile, here on The Ringer, here's another segment about the Boston Celtics. We all have counterpoints.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

I mean, that would be a juicy one. Honestly, this is maybe an unpopular pick, but I'm actually really excited about Cavs Pacers. I think that's going to be a really fun, really competitive series.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

I'm basically always on don't count the Pacers out corner. So yeah, I think that has to be taken into account. But there has not been a bigger buzzsaw in these playoffs than the Cavs in the first round. So I'm eager to see what they get against better competition. Of course, I'm eager to see what OKC's got when they have to play someone who's actually going to put up some resistance.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

So honestly, it's been a pretty fun, if a little bit turbulent, of a first round. The second round is going to have some real juice to it, though.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

To experience Rudy Gobert in person?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Well, there was the refusal on J.J. Redick's part to put, say, Jackson Hayes, whatever big you would prefer on their roster back in the game. Put the corpse of Alex Lennon there. At least he's taking up space. I'm not going to advocate for putting any of those guys in in particular. I'm just saying he refused to do it.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

And yeah, the fact that the players on the court, specifically the forwards, were just not putting a body on anybody... including Rudy Gobert, but really anybody at all, just standing there as rebounds came down. Both of those things can't be true. One of the sides has to budge. Either you put in bigger players or the kind of bigger wings you have have to rebound.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

He just came off the medical table, cleared to play. And they're like, yeah, okay, here you go. Here's five minutes.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Mark Williams thought he made a difference. I don't know if you saw him on the action, which I appreciate, but I don't think he's changing that game.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

I don't think anybody on their roster, if they had subbed in Alex Leonard, subbed in Jackson Hayes, I don't think it's materially changing the fact that Rudy Gobert was putting just about everybody who would get close to him in the rim and nobody would really get close to him by maybe the third quarter at best.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

It's weird like that. I think the trouble with Minnesota too, and I'm a believer in the Wolves. How could you not be after the display they just put on? Julius Randle played unreal. Rudy Gobert obviously showed up in the way he did. And Ant has just been developing as a playmaker right before our eyes. There's also some stuff happening on the periphery.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

You mentioned the three-point shooting where like Nikhil Alexander-Walker low-key cannot hit a shot. Dante DiVincenzo cannot hit a shot. He was awful yesterday, yeah. Like that stuff, it either will come home to roost all playoffs long or it's going to swing back hard the other way.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

And I think that's the question if you're picking the Wolves as one of the definitive best teams left in the bracket is, are you betting on those guys to hit? And I think it's realistic, given both of their pedigrees, to say that they will. But there's a lot riding on them. And Jaden McDaniels also, we should say, being dared to shoot yet again.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

And he will be again, just by nature of the way that team is built. He's going to have to knock down some shots in addition to everything else he's doing.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Yeah. And he's finding more ways to be good. Like he's finding more ways to leverage his size, to get inside, to make plays for other people. It's been an awesome Jaden McDaniels back part of the season.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

And then he had 40 of the 50 fouls that you mentioned.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

I think there was a stretch of maybe three or four possessions where he settled on threes consecutively. When the Wolves really needed baskets. And it was like, he's rocking a little bit off the axis here. But then he stabilized. Then they stabilized. Then he's getting Julius Randle involved. He's making this crucial setup to Mike Conley in the corner for a game-securing basket.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

And also, there's also the thing where it's like when your game plan is so clearly to work the offensive glass like hell. The shots he was taking are not necessarily bad shots. Sometimes his role is to force things so that he doesn't have to call Rudy Gobert up for a high screen so Gobert can stay low and get those rebounds. There's some trade-offs involved in that, obviously.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

And you would love when he gets an injured Luka one-on-one to see him blow by him. But the Lakers were doing kind of soft doubles all night. They were trying to throw things at him to throw him off balance. I thought... I thought he mostly aced every test. Some occasional blips, but really, really impressive stuff from Ant.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Right after the game, I assume, on Saturday. We'll get it up as soon as we can.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Yeah, you would think so. But honestly, I think when you allow them to be that handsy and that physical, this is the kind of series where if the Clippers can control the glass and specifically keep the Nuggets off the offensive glass for long stretches, it feels like they're in control of these games.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

They're going to win the turnover battle so handily just by the nature of how they play and how Denver plays. If you can keep the Nuggets from clawing back possessions through any other means, you're going to be in pretty good shape to win the game.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

And so that's one area where the physicality really pays off, not just battling Jokic to keep him off the offensive glass, but bumping and holding Aaron Gordon, bumping and holding Christian Brown, like bumping and holding Russell Westbrook, frankly.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

They've certainly had their moments and they've had stretches where they felt really good and felt like they were clicking and playing their style. This game ultimately did not feel that way. They're still walking the line in so many respects between Jokic being as aggressive as he needs to be to dominate some of these matchups.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

And particularly when the zone is out there, when Batum is guarding him, ordinarily when Ben Simmons is guarding him, although now he's kind of out of the series. He's gone. RIP.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

You had a good run. But those are possessions Jokic just has to bulldoze his way and brute force his way into baskets. Because ultimately, the Clippers are going to play off Russ. If he's out there on the floor, they're going to shrink the floor around him, but take away the passing lanes. And so Jokic is going to have to create tough baskets in crowds in a lot of these situations.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

And he has to do that against Zutu. And For all due credit, Zoo came up with some monster stops down the stretch of this game. Game-saving plays on the defensive end with all of that contact we've talked about. But he knew the prescription. He knew what this game allowed, and he played it to a tee.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

But he was that good, honestly. It was crazy to think about.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Yeah.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

That's the catch, right? And this is where I struggled to determine down the stretch of this game. In the fourth quarter, as you mentioned, the acceleration wasn't there for Harden. The pace he was playing with, just the downhill determination to blow by whoever was in front of him was not there.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Is that because he's James Harden at this age, at this point in his career, and he doesn't always have it all the time through every game? Or was that them playing the clock, basically, and trying to coast out a marginal lead against a run that specifically Jokic was pushing the ball up court and they were starting to create some pressure? And were they just trying to drain too much clock?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

I couldn't quite tell which one was going on, to be honest with you.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Right across half court too.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

He was probably due for one at this point in the series, to be honest with you. But the three is like, yeah, Derek Jones is not going to hit every night in the same way that Chris Dunn won't hit every night and may not even be in the rotation anymore. Batum, I would expect to.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

But more importantly, I think the possessions that led to those threes and led to so many, I would say, kind of like random Clippers baskets were these like chaotic offensive rebound tipped by Zoo, bounces off three guys' hands, goes through a crowd and ends up with a random Clipper.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Those plays can seem really fluky, but when you're the team playing with as much effort as the Clippers are playing with and you're as engaged and you're flying around the court, it felt like they were quicker to those balls. In part because they didn't have to push it the other way so they can fight for it in a different way than the Nuggets can.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

But I thought they just turned up every single one of those plays that they needed to. And then when you look at the total sum of all of them, that's like a 15-point swing in this game ultimately. The Russ missed layup coming down on the other end and ending up in a Norm Powell three, what should have been a four point game as a nine point game. That's it right there.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

Like the chaos of these games decides them.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

I know.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

And maybe that's where you don't get some of the Clipper role players delivering in quite the same way. Like when you were saying, you know, the Clippers are so hard to beat when Kawhi and Harden are both clicking at a high level. Obviously true, clearly true. Part of the reason it's true is because then it relieves the pressure.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

So only one of, say, Norm Powell and Zubats have to be a big time scorer, right?

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

taking some of the edge off those guys where they can just kind of fill a role. You go on the road, let's say Harden and Kawhi play well again, but now all of a sudden all of the role player shots are tougher. Maybe the threes aren't coming quite so frequently. Like that's, that's one of the trade-offs that just is really, really tough with road play, especially in a game seven.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

And we're about to get a game seven with two of the best postseason performers in modern playoff history in Kawhi and Jokic in particular. So whatever reservations we may have about Harden or Michael Porter Jr. or whoever else is involved in the series, I'm fucking psyched for it.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

I think I might put the Clippers as the best of the three, even still.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

But it's very, very close. And then there's also the question of like, are we talking about head-to-head in a series versus sort of in a more abstract, universal sense? Sealing upside, yeah. Sealing upside, I think the Clippers are the most versatile of these teams.

The Bill Simmons Podcast

A Clips-Nuggets Slugfest, Brunson’s Heroics, Best 2025 TV Shows and NBA Then and Now With Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson and Bob Ryan

I think their defense can be as good as Minnesota's defense can be, but they have some qualities in terms of their half-court offense that feel even a little bit more stable to me and a little less matchup dependent, right? So I think there's just some things with the Clippers that I really, really like. And I love Ty Lue pulling the levers behind all of those things.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

That's the thing. Pop down to the restaurant for a quick bite. Maybe that's an argument against the a la carte distinction is like he's coming here to eat at the restaurant as a non guest. I've never heard of that at like an all inclusive situation.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

I mean, I think it's very notable for one that we don't really talk about Victoria in this way, because she is almost consciously running from whatever sense of identity she has other than mother and part of this family and advice giver as far as like, don't trust anyone you're not related to. And also everyone is trying to scam you at all times.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Like her identity feels a little bit more muddled in a way that makes sense for that character. everyone else is mostly reaching for something, grasping for something. Tim clearly defines a lot of who he is based on this kind of provider mentality as a very clear patriarch figure. He enjoys being the guy who comes into the room, says, y'all have a good day.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

I'm going this way while you all do your treatments. Job done here. He seems to drive a lot of satisfaction.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

He made the plan vis-a-vis Pam, and now everyone gets to be happy and do their thing.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

And yeah, clearly Saxon wants to be his dad so bad, or at least wants daddy's approval so bad to the point that he'll basically say anything to agree with him across the table. That's fine. We kind of know who that character is, but it's telling that Lachlan is the battleground for so many of these other characters. Like you can tell from his interactions with Piper that

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

She wants him to be spiritual in the way that she is like she wants him to have these gratifying meditative experiences or praying experiences like when he's in the float tank. And he's clearly not there. And I find what's so interesting about Lachlan is that when he's with Saxon, he has more Piper energy in some ways. And when he's with Piper, he has more Saxon energy in a lot of ways.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

And you feel that tug between them.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

being handed down regionally and generationally um i have i have a valley girl california accent so i i can't speak to that but uh monkey shoot out at gmail.com yeah i think they do mute over time my parents certainly have much more of a twang than i do and for me it comes out more on the y'alls it comes out more with like specific words and things like that uh but i think that's pretty natural especially for kids who have like if you've been to

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

So that's what the whole pod's about today, right? We're just going to do an immersive reading exercise together.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Depending on where you grew up, if you're growing up in like more urban versus rural areas where those accents might be like a little more hardened, if you're going away for school versus staying close by for school, like all those things are variables. But I think it's pretty natural for kids to grow up with a much less significant version of the same accent, if not lose it altogether.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

A little bit. There's that kind of echoing effect that happens. Absolutely. But ultimately, I think it just doesn't come out that much at all.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

I guess ostensibly we are covering White Lotus season three, episode two. That is a thing that we are technically here to do.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

From a certain point of view, Joe.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

I still think he's here for professional reasons.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

I don't think this is personal vengeance. I think a lot of that backstory is more my read on it to this point is more to illustrate Rick as sort of this empty vessel, this person who is devoid of identity, who has tried to take away every shred of identity that he ever thought he had. For maybe these reasons he lays out, which is that his mom overdosed and his dad was murdered.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

I also don't know if we're supposed to take those things at 100 percent face value or not, or if that's just the guy who does not want to be in this meditative session, not wanting to talk.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Be a human being. Be more than nothing, really.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Yes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Hitman feels the most likely, but it also could be he just needs to meet this man for some sort of clandestine reason. It could be a delivery. It could be information. I don't know exactly.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

I mean, look, I think Walton Goggins is a great hang. I think Hollinger would be so lucky to chase him down to Bangkok.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

I love him as a philosopher and I'm glad we get this sequence with Amrita because frankly I don't think like Rick thinks so little of Chelsea in certain ways that he would never have this kind of conversation with her. I don't think about the like the the what he contains in his soul is not really what their relationship is at this stage. Maybe someday it will be.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

He does not bear to her in that very specific way. And look, I think they are an incredible pair. And I think there's a push and pull on a chemical level that makes a lot of sense. And I think you nailed it in that... she is really good for him in a lot of ways. Like she is pushing him out of his comfort zone. She is like calling him on his bullshit.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

And clearly he provides a kind of security for Chelsea that she needs. Like he gives her a comfort and a safety. Like she, even when she's like basically begging him to be held and protected, like there is a dynamic here that makes a lot of sense. And one that I think is, is so expertly deployed opposite Chloe and Greg, where it's,

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

As we are told many times in this episode, basically the same people. Young woman, grumpy older man. The parallels are obvious, but Chloe hates Greg by every indication we have in the show. They have a purely transactional relationship where she is a sex worker, it seems of some kind, or at least Rick is very quick to point that out. Chelsea and Rick could not be more different in their way.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

I think they are both benefiting from each other in some ways. Chelsea may not be on this kind of trip if not for Rick. And Rick may benefit for whatever his purposes are, personal or professional, from having a partner to travel with for cover or otherwise. But they have an actual functional relationship. It's weird, but it kind of works in its way.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Yes. I also think I never would have in my very limited casting wisdom thought to put Walton Goggins opposite Amy Lou Wood and say that is a pairing that should work as a couple who is traveling abroad.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

There is more charge in like a four word exchange between them when she tells him he's so mysterious and he just says, I'm not. Then basically like any supposedly steamy show on television now or in the recent past, like, and that's before they start the proper foreplay. Like there is just something between them that absolutely works in that way.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

And once you have that, you can sell a lot of the rest and you can understand the emotional beats and you can figure out like who these people are to each other and what they can mean. But you're right.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

It terrifies me to hear you lay it out in the way of Rick as somebody who is going to probably have to make a choice at some point, specifically as far as his identity, when we just talked about all the White Lotus characters who just crystallize in their worst instincts by the end of the season.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Some do.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

I'm so glad you asked.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

He's definitely going to Bangkok, right?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Yeah.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Joe they can email us at monkey shootout at gmail.com or as always prestige tv at spotify.com but we all know the monkey shootout is coming it has been foreshadowed it has been foretold it is monkeys are in every interstitial in this entire episode somehow the monkeys are here and they will be shooting out soon so please email us at monkey shootout at gmail.com we did get an email from our listener Rachel who asks under the umbrella of the monkeys did it

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Along the Blonde Blob line, though, we got an email from... You already mentioned one Kara who emailed in. A different Kara emailed us in to point out that... It's not often in TV that you get stories that it's like one insulated storyline with people of the same gender, the same age bracket, the same hair color.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

And it feels very telling in that way that they are allowed to be the blonde blob and written to be the blonde blob. Because usually in these exact scenarios, one has to be brunette, one has to wear glasses, one has to be in a different age set or have a dramatically different style. These are three women who are styled pretty similarly at the end of the day.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

And the fact that they are constructed as as a like one unit to be considered and also to pull apart from itself, I think, is where the fun comes from.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

How could we possibly tell them apart?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

You know, let me tell you, we'll be cracking imminently within episodes if it isn't already. But you're absolutely right about Jacqueline. And I think it's tied to into her standing in the broader world. Right. There is who she is in this friend group. And it feels increasingly as we learn more about her. Like, this is a bit of a retreat.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

This is a bit of a circling the wagons for somebody who's going through a lot, who has a lot of neuroses, who has this husband who she's obsessed with healthfully. And there's definitely nothing weird going on there at all. And she's definitely not insecure about the fact that he's 10 years younger than her and clearly very, very, very hot.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

um and so you see a lot i feel like among yeah the fancies the fancy cougars the blonde blob whatever you prefer of these women kind of speaking to their insecurities both directly and indirectly and for jacqueline is it is a lot of like am i hot enough or good enough for this relationship that i'm in is one of the insecurities she's talking about but you can transpose it on her friends too where it's like if she's not even hot enough for

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

To be the hottest in this group. How is she going to be hot enough to fend off everyone who's making advances on her hot husband?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

And I feel like in Kate, the insecurity that you hear is a lot more like it's played for last with the Parker Posey scene in terms of like the non-recognition. But she comes away from it like she seems genuinely a little bothered. And her thought is, am I that forgettable? Am I boring? Am I that boring? Right. And the answer might be yes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Like the most interesting thing this woman has to say is about beans, which we can circle back to if you like. But like that seems like where she is. She's trying to figure like she wants to be notable beyond more than just being like a rich guy's wife.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

I think you get this kind of really hammered home by the end when Tim is on the phone talking about the light to media money laundering that he seems to have done for only 10 million dollars.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Versus, you know, like even for someone like Jacqueline, 10 million dollars is probably a lot of money.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

That was the closest she's gotten to Sydney Sweeney era White Lotus so far. She has it in her, and I wonder if we're going to see more and more of it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

A monkey related shooting. Yeah. Monkey involved shooting.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

When, frankly, it was good to see the claws come out a little bit as far as her place in this relationship that she can talk some shit to. She can gossip with the best of them. Like, the dynamics shift depending on which two women are in the room. Yeah. And we get some hints at a backstory as far as, like, you know, the potential, like, pursuit of Valentin, for example.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Like, oh, this is Cancun all over again. Like, Laurie's been out here getting after it. All right? Like, she's lived a life. She's had a pretty successful career, if not, as you said, in the way that she may have wanted as far as making a partner. Right. But I love the developing relationship and the rounding out, or I guess hardening edge of the triangle between these three women.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

This is my mathematical proof, Joe, and please check my work here. Kate will talk shit about Lori, but she kind of needs to be nudged to talk shit about Jacqueline. Like she feels like she's a little more hesitant to talk shit about Jacqueline. And in some ways maybe wants to be Jacqueline or have Jacqueline's face or whatever you prefer. Uh,

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Jacqueline will hear gossip about Lori, but honestly mostly seems to pity her and her circumstances in ways where she doesn't want to pile on too much. Lori will talk shit about Jacqueline, and that's, I think, our new development in this episode. She's coming in hot. It just might take her, like, a bottle bottle and half of Sauvignon Blanc to get there. And once she does, she has a raft.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

I'm going to say this. If a monkey is even in the background of the scene, we're going to claim victory on this.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Can you believe that about the beans?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

I'm going to need episode seven to just be eating a big old plate of beans like we don't need to call it out, but we need to get the melon.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

The real ones need to know. And we need to see it in action. But honestly, I wonder if we're going to get that. I wonder if this is the case where it is a triangle technically, but Kate is kind of the hinge point. Because we're already told that Jacqueline and Lori haven't seen each other in four years, I think is what Jacqueline says. Maybe they're just not as close.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Maybe Kate's role in this friend group has always been that she's sort of the middle ground for both of them and the way that everything makes sense. So I honestly don't know if we're going to get that. But it would fit the monkey, see no evil, hear no evil theme perfectly.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

I think it's got to be a live monkey. Unless someone with a gun turns a corner and sees a monkey statue and gets startled and shoots somebody thinking it's a real monkey, then I will still claim victory. So yeah, the gun doesn't have to be in the monkey's hands. I think the monkey needs to be driving the action in some way to shots being fired. Yeah.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Because I thought it was kind of interesting that when their friends are gossiping about them, Lori sees her friends through the window but can't hear them. Jacqueline hears her friends from downstairs but can't see them. Maybe we do get, you know, the trifecta as far... I don't even know what it would be at that point.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

To speak your friends, but not... Are you writing bullshit about... Are you tech... Well, they don't have their phones, I guess. At least we don't think they have their phones. But it's got to be some version of the written word.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Yeah, that's the point.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Maybe a little of all of the above. And this is what I love about this friend group is there is so much being critical of each other under the guise of care, under the guise of like, oh, I'm so concerned about their well-being. I'm so concerned about their life. But they always double back to like, oh, but she's so great. Oh, but she's so beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

On the one hand, that could be very superficial. I also think it can kind of be true of the people that you're closest with and like who have you have the longest lasting connections with is you can be critical of them and wonder what the hell they're doing, but also care about them. I don't know that that's the case here. And maybe it's not.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Maybe this is a long, a long lasting friendship that should have petered out years and years ago. And these women are kind of holding on to. But I think there's something true in that, or at least something true in the way people try to act, which is they want to be close, even if they aren't.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

And in that case, it will indeed be a monkey shootout by definition.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Yes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

He's not my guy.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

He is not my guy. I just want to say Valentin, not my guy.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Right.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Not enough. Can you take me on a journey?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

I mean, certainly makes it all the more understandable why Sutala would point out, oh, he's Russian when they show up. Like how it would be useful from the perspective of working at a hotel to have a fluent Russian speaker, somebody to work with Russian guests like that. That makes all the sense in the world. Also would help us understand why these other two robbers might be potentially Russian.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

The fact that Valentin is so clearly involved to me, and this has been easily the funniest thing as far as from a theory standpoint. The number of people who I have seen suggested as potentially behind the masks executing this robbery. Let me tell you, Greg is not robbing this hotel. No.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

That tells me you have never seen a man of Greg's age move like the hip, the hip mobility. He's not swiveling like that. Like, it's just not happening. I'm sorry. He's not moving in that way. And so I think you can very easily go through the list of like people. It could not be under any circumstances or people who narratively probably would not make sense.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

But then there's Valentin, who is stopping not just to distract Gaitak at the gate, but parking his bike underneath the gate itself and preventing it from closing as he is soft pitching the idea of going to these fights together. I want to see if those tickets come through, by the way. He better at least deliver for our Gaitak.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

His idea of a chill first date is like a marriage proposal. He's coming in way, way, way too hot.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

His pitch is like, your family likes me and I can maybe hang a picture frame. That's his pitch.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Do you know? No, no.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Not yet. But she also has only, to this point, affirmed him with attention.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Not uncomfortable. There is a shy sweetness to them that I do enjoy watching.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

I disagree, though, that the reciprocity is sort of what punctures the idea because you can be in a relationship with a guy and find out into the relationship with interest and with care and with love that they are actually a nice guy at heart and want to be controlling and want to kind of make these strictures around your life.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

I think the test is going to be when Hollinger's bodyguards come calling again, when someone else shows interest, when Mook veers away from nursing him and holding his ice pack. What happens? What is left of our guy, Guy Talk? Sorry, your guy, Guy Talk.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Because, yeah, right now his only move is basically marry me. And it feels intense. And, yes, she is kind of laughing it off. Does not seem entirely uncomfortable with his advances.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

But I'm worried.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Well, he took a pistol whip and ultimately he got the most powerful medicine that there is, which is the sweet, sweet affection of the person that you're interested in. So he's doing all right at this point.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

he could not be more tightly wound so it would not surprise me to see him break at some point the way he is just like a living breathing anxiety spiral who eventually will talk himself into a fugue state if you let him go long enough I love in this show love everything that Fabian has bring to the table love the lip-syncing Wisteria Tala's performance oh my god I think he's gonna be more comedic effect moving some plot lines along I don't see like a tragic fate becoming him but I'm I am so happy he's here

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

You think Mook wants some of those special treatments too?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

saying no no porn chai in my view belongs to belinda but like belongs guy takes off his shirt one time and now they are betrothed there's energy there there isn't look she she is into the milk soap she is into the salt scrub like she's having a great time and i i support belinda and her pursuits uh dawkins is also not skipping arm day i'm just saying it's a great it was a great episode everyone knew

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

they were coming to Thailand and they're going to be taking their shirts off. They knew there were going to be some open flowing garments and everyone, everyone is really ready. What else do you want to talk about? Joanna? I don't know what's going on with the Ratliff kids. Uh, at this point, I'm very worried.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

uh-huh that somebody's something is gonna end up in someone and i don't know who or which or what the the incest vibes are just incredibly strong tough it's tough but between everybody everybody's each other's business i really hate the way you just phrased that um but i can't find my i didn't need to disagree with you um it's not good if you had to pick a parry oh boy

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

I have a very bad feeling that there is a Piper Saxon situation happening. Actively happening. I don't know if actively happening, but like... On the horizon. Something did happen. Something is weird. I want to go through specifically when Lockie and Piper are out in the ocean hammocks. And he brings to her... Can we press pause?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Why not? Let's take another lap.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

I love a hammock. I would love an ocean. Oh my God. Are you kidding? This is an ideal setup. This is where you want to be. I think the only issue with the ocean hammock, and this is only a problem if you are an adult 2025 person like I am, it's hard to bring things out to the hammock.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

If you're having to swim to it, like you could have the waterproof bag with your book in it or your, your music in it, like what, you know, your headphones, whatever it is that you want to bring. Um, But look, very good for presence. Very good for tranquility. I would love to be in that hammock.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Definitely works. But like Piper's going full like freestyle. Like she's swimming out there. So it's at least a little bit deep.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

into ocean hammock corner but let's go back to uh to incest uh corner incest road with that's not a corner you want to be in it's not legal in many states uh thank but yeah thank you all of them right i i hope i i almost am scared to know at this point okay uh so lockheed brings up to piper by the way saxon says that you've never had sex before yeah

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

totally normal what sarah catherine hook is giving us as piper in this scene is a whole ass crisis of something and i don't know what it is or what it means like she gets to the what the fuck she starts with like she has her eyes closed as lucky is saying this her eyes jut open you can see the gears turning as she's figuring like what do i possibly say to this

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

her first response is to scoff and to kind of grasp at something and to project like she's above it. Like he doesn't know what I do. Right. That is her first response when she finally does respond. Then she tries to kind of quiet down. Then she sits up agitated asking how the hell would this even come up? And that's where Locke tells her, oh, actually, no, it was a compliment.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

He was actually saying, you're so hot, so it's weird that you've never had sex before. Very normal, cool family. This is where you get the mouth, what the fuck. Piper gets frustrated and weirded out. She tries to settle down again, and that's when Locke

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

prompts her in a very saxon way to ask well is it true and that's when she bolts off and so it's like there's so much happening here between them and so much specifically in what piper is kind of carrying on her face and internally in this scene yeah i would be shocked if there's not something behind it and it may not be the kind of thing we ever get into but it's it's hinting at a very rich sibling history and i pray not incestuous sibling history but at this point god knows

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

I mean, Saxon is like if a shit-eating grin was a person. So yeah, like the bar is pretty low.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

At minimum, Locke is a little freak who wants to stare at his brother's ass and ask her sister about her sexual escapades. It's not great, the early signs.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Can I say one thing in Saxon's defense? Just one quick note.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

You know, we laughed at the time about this when the rooming arrangements were being proposed. And he said something to the effect of like, you can't do that when you have fully grown genitals.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Knowing everything that we think we know now or suspect now about the Ratliffs, maybe he was right. These three people need three separate rooms and need their fully grown genitals very far away from each other.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Yes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Sleeping nude with your brother in the room is deranged behavior.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Okay.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Always.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Oh, sure. Here's an igneous. Here's a volcanic. Yeah. Let's hammer these things out. Okay. Here's some talc.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Shout out to Big Tree for trying to get it rebranded as Pong Pong. Like, it's just a softer, gentler situation.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Him being out of earshot and also Saxon trying to get him in on the protein smoothie game. That's a tough combination.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Yeah. Then poisonous fruit. We all love it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Let me get some local delicacies.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

That's the worst you got. Guys, it's 2025. You need to dream bigger. Like people are worse than that. I'm sorry.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

So, you know, here's where the blondies are not a monolith, though, because Kate seems like a tough hang. I'm going to be honest with you.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

I do want to hear about the beans, but I might be shooting my friends a look as she's talking about the beans in the way that she and Lori are shooting each other looks. Lori and Jacqueline seem like pretty good company as far as these things go.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

If you were power ranking the current White Lotus guests based on who I would want to be in a social situation with, I think Chelsea is probably number one with a bullet. She seems like a delight. Correct. Porn Shy seems pretty cool. I would hang out with him. Yeah. I'll throw a mook into that category. Again, guy talk, not my speed, per se. The Ratliffs are generally out.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Even her, I'm a little skeptical of. I think we're going to see some different layers of Piper throughout this season.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

But once you get beyond that group... Actually, Belinda seems like a great hang, too. I think you're getting into Laurie and Jacqueline territory pretty quickly.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

But sweet, sweet mercy. That is White Lotus. That is Mike White. That we get the name of Lori's daughter in this episode, so I do not have to endure the dumbest theory, with all due respect to anyone who is pushing it, of White Lotus. The idea that season two's Portia was somehow Lori's daughter based on the fact that I guess they're both blonde. That was as far as the evidence seemed to go.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Oh, my God. I mean, are all three members of the blonde blob slash fancy cougars have very active minds, very active neuroses? As you bring up the monkey mind, Jo, it calls to mind something for me, which is in the captioning for White Lotus. You get a lot of these animal noises during the interstitials. Yeah.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

And sometimes I feel like the monkeys are described as chittering and sometimes they're described as chattering. Do you have a good handle on what separates a chitter from a chatter?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

I'm Rob Mahoney.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Makes sense. So maybe it's more chittering cicadas than it is chittering monkeys.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

The man needs a lorazepam so bad.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

We're out here. We're out here looking for teal in every corner and as always kind of looking for which characters that teal is associated with. I feel like that's also very important.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

We did. Perhaps more than immersive reading emails. I didn't.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

But more divisively. The immersive reading emails were consistently, as requested on my part, explaining to us why you might do this. The accent emails, we have people from the Carolinas feeling very strongly on both sides of the divide. Brother against brother. It's tough times out here.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

I am on the right side of history about that. I feel very confident in my opinion and our listeners who emailed in to... Just to concur, really. Just to stand with me against you and other chicken washers out there.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Not a complaint, simply commentary. But Joe, I'm curious of your expert opinion on this, because as someone who has recently overcommitted to doing a Southern accent for a very long D&D campaign, I'm curious if that experience brought anything new out for you in terms of the work of not just trying to nail the accent a la Jason Isaacs, which he clearly is at some points, but maintaining it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Oh, no, it was absolutely a snub. I mean, it was a squinty wall that she was giving in response to the oh, hey, girl energy. Like, you can't do that.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

um do you feel like you've encountered a squinty wall in your time uh growing up in the south is this a is this a normal thing that you've seen not that i've encountered no me neither but maybe in retrospect there was one and i was just oblivious to it or i was thinking somebody was rude but in fact they were just blitzed out of their fucking gourd like you know i think there's many explanations for these so you feel like it's the lorazepam

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

I feel like she is comfortably numb every second of every day and also probably does not remember however many years ago this was because she was also then comfortably dumb and has no grasp of what happened when or why or with whom.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Yes. So I consider that people being on my side. You're right. They're with me. But... The important thing, if you are out there listening to a book, audio book, as you read it, immersive reading, as we've been told many people call this, we see you, we hear you, we acknowledge everything that you're doing out there. Clearly, there is an incredible market for this that we did not realize, Joe.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Maybe himself more than his family. We got multiple emails of people worried about Tim Ratliff becoming a, and this is a direct quote from both, family annihilator.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

The synchronicity of that concerned me a little bit, but I would say that's not usually what White Lotus is. It's not a show where I expect like I expect comic shootout with a bunch of criminals involving Jennifer Coolidge. Sure. A man murdering his entire family before committing suicide. I'm going to say that's not going to happen now. Could he disappear?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Could he you know, this is a man who does not seem to have a lot of cards to play. Could he fake his own death? Could he kill himself? I think those things are in play, but I'm not I don't think Tim Ratliff is going to gun down or poison his children. I just don't see that.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High

Just go the next White Lotus over? But the problem with that is it doesn't seem like our guy is going to have a lot of disposable funds to do that with. So it's easier to go Gary when you can just live up the hill in splendor.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

And the fact that everyone is so game for it and so good at it. Look, Stephen Graham has found a hell of a troupe. If this is his troupe, I think he needs to look no further.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

This is a tough corner for you to be on, Joe. Are you pro-drone? I'm not actually pro-drone, but... You love a drone? I don't actually love a drone. I want to be very clear for everyone listening at home. There's a facetious comment. I'm not pro-drone, but...

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Does that count? You're not even trying.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

I'm pro that drone shot. I am pro.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Yes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Does that make sense? That does make sense. I think the fact that you can go from chase scene into character beat into fly away drone shot into extreme close up on Stephen Graham in a one or format. It's just like I've never seen that before. And so I'm I'm extremely down for that element of that execution.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

But yeah, I'm glad you point that out. Cause like the, the one or stuff as it relates to a drone shot or flying out the window is naturally sort of arresting and dazzling, but how you bank corners in a tight English home does not make sense. Like geometric sense. I have no idea how they pulled it off.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Yeah. Your sense of awe and wonder is overriding your ability to process and enjoy and engage with the show.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Occasionally. I think in some cases it does, though, facilitate the story as they're trying to present it. I think episode one is a great example where disorientation is very much a part of that process. And I was so struck in episode one being basically as pure procedural as this show gets, right? It is arrest to booking to interrogation, effectively. That is the process of the episode. Mm-hmm.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

But for example, for something as simple as in any other procedural, they're trying to get the code to his phone, to Jamie's phone, to open it, to gather evidence. In this, because of the POV kind of laced one or format, you are following person from room to room as they discover. In order to get his phone, you do need the code. In order to get the code, Jamie has to give it to you. In order to

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Coincidentally to pineapplebobbing at gmail.com or as always to prestigetv at spotify.com.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

For him to agree, he has to be first assessed by this nurse and, like, made fit to make that agreement in the first place. And in order to be assessed, he has to get his, like, appropriate adult in the room. And for then he has to decide, does that want to be his mother or his father or this random person, like, the social worker who's been assigned to him? And so you see all of these...

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

like very complex systems locking into one another. And one thing I thought that Chris and Andy pointed out on the watch, I thought was a great observation about this is you're seeing people at different levels of exposure and like emotional vulnerability all throughout this process, right?

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

You have the family that's in a state of complete shock in this elaborate system, bumping up against all of these professionals who are mostly trying to do their job competently. And I would say for the most part, quite compassionately given the circumstances.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

He even tries to preempt it and like take a break right before they're about to jump into it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

I was really struck by that overall in terms of the way that the working professionals and the cops and everyone in the station does talk to Jamie. Yeah. As you say, knowing in some regard what he's done or what he's most likely done. And it's even under those circumstances, like, Bascom is not trying to throw the book at him.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

He is telling him, when we get in there, you should ask for a solicitor. Like, this is what's going to happen. You should ask for these things. Not just reading his rights, but explaining him in a more delicate way since he is a scared child, regardless of what he's done. And all the people who are assessing him, it's a lot of like, you're such a smart boy. You're such a good boy.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

It's a lot of mate and love. And I understand, and we're going to get into it as far as the handling of that character and that character's place in this story. And I very much understand the reads on it. I think treating that character with a kind of compassion is a really interesting artistic choice.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

And it's happening across the story. And it's happening across the story in a way that I think adolescence has something to say about it. It has a lot to say about that idea of who these people are and the way that they're made.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

I'm not even saying there's been any pushback other than to say, I think the show itself engages with this idea in the second episode where the show is basically calling itself out for being fundamentally and structurally a story about Jamie in a lot of different ways. And in particular, DS Frank, Misha played by Faye Marseille, who I love and I'm thrilled to see in this role. I agree.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

You have this kind of point of conflict between her and Bascom, where Bascom is very intent on figuring out the why of why Jamie murdered Katie. And I think Frank doesn't think you ever can know why, which is a reasonable point of view to have in a case like this.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

But also, it bothers her so much that they're spending so much time trying to get into Jamie's head in a way that probably will render Katie invisible or at least put her aside or at least put her outside the frame. And... I think Bascom's counter to that, that figuring out the why, is in its way honoring Katie.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

I do find that to be a little bit persuasive, but I honestly very much want to hear what you feel about it, Jill.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

I know. Which is... And it's always a woman, or in this case, a little girl.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

I don't I don't think it does either. And it's something that even as that conversation is happening in the moment, that was what took me out as much as anything. It's like, oh, we have to have this talk about why the show is structured.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Why the show is structured the way it is to the extent that I give it a little more leeway on that front. I think it's because.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Joe, that's a lot of pods.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

This show is so deeply unsalacious like it is it is it is so uninterested in the glamorization of murder or in this I ripped even like a rip from the headlines sort of intrigue and so much more interested in the structural factors that lead to things like this and really the way that not just Jamie is.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

a kid who has gone so far astray and has so many clear terrifying problems but the way that like we as a society have failed kids and we have failed their ability to be raised in a normal format and to be able to function as normal adult human beings like everything is going off the railroad tracks so fast and it's like the camera's pointing at the railroad tracks and saying like why is this happening as much as it is the murder itself or anything involved

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Some stuff. That's some content for your feed.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Yeah.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

It does.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

And if you're going to do it, at least do it well in this particular way where it is, yes, technically impressive, but overall, I think the one or format, and we can talk about this in the context of any of these episodes, I would say, especially episodes three and four have this advantage where it is just ratcheting up the intensity.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Like every cut, when you think about it is like a little bit of a pressure release. And so the fact that you never get those pressure releases mean

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

It's just genuinely an awful time to be a teenager. Just an awful, awful time.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Although Mr. Malick, not winning teacher of the year anytime soon.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Mrs. Fenimore.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Is it too late to pull him out of that? Can we be his agents? I think we can help him out.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

No.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Yeah. This is their fifth session, I think.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Yeah.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

I think I agree with you on episode three overall being sort of the standout, which is really saying something given the other three episodes with I think are tremendous in their own way. But the sort of experience of watching this show pitting your brain against itself where we have seen on tape that he stabbed this girl. And we know it. It's not something a character said.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

It's not a little thing to put out there that they're going to swerve. And it turns out he's not actually the killer and the tape was doctored or whatever. He is the killer. And yet, you can't help, at least I could not help, but be charmed by him at certain points and to see him as that kid. And it's just like, it is impeccable acting. It is jackpot casting.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

It's really threading the needle in finding someone who can be both the kid who pisses himself when the police show up, whimpering in his bed, and also lording over this therapist who's come to talk to him and evaluate him. And to be not just angry, but calculatedly intimidating. There are moments where I agree with you. It's not a flip switch. Yeah.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Yeah.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

It's not a switch flip, but ultimately he'll have his freak out moments that are kind of pure anger or pure frustration or him like getting out some kind of boyish young energy and anger. And then when he comes back from them, there's there is something there that is so dark and it is so like him seizing control of that room.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

And him trying to seize control of their dynamic, his dynamic with yet another woman in his life, that he wants so desperately to like him, and yet he can't get her to admit it. In some cases, because professionally, she simply cannot.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

At least kind of chatting her up.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

He's kind of like he fixates on it really quickly.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

you're pretty and posh and you can't understand my plight and i'm not even going to give you the opportunity to make this connection with me that i thought was really yes stunning and telling i think the way that jamie locks on to yes those sorts of associations who can understand him and who can't how people communicate with him like he's so enamored with this idea of like oh that's not what normal people say like when i say that i'm ugly you're supposed to reassure me when i

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

say that girls would never be interested in me you're supposed to tell me of course that's not true right and her unwillingness to participate in that is some of what stokes all of the intensity in that scene and what brings out some of the language you're talking about like the queen and the little head and even when he's describing you know what what kind of preempts him murdering katie is some nude photos of her leak out among the school from snapchat

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

And he decides that he wants to like take a pass at her in this moment, that she has been embarrassed enough socially. Exactly. That he says she's weak and that therefore she might be more susceptible to his advances. And like that idea, I just like putting it in that way. Like we, we hear reiterated over and over again in episode three, that it's not about what happened.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

It's about what he thinks it's about. It's not what is true is how he's thinking about things. And like, One area in which this show, which very much wants to be a show about masculinity and a story about how these boys become these boys and how they become the kind of person that would murder a girl.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

It engages very openly in some of the factors that facilitate that. Their depth online and what they're exposed to on the internet, what they're exposed to in these schools. We get explicit Andrew Tate name checks, kind of manosphere mentions overall.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

I thought it was really interesting that they choose to make Jamie not someone who follows all that stuff credulously, but someone who has looked at it and said, some of this isn't really for me, but also ends up parroting other bits of it almost subconsciously, accepting it regardless of whether he thinks he's doing it or not.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

I thought like that, that's such a great choice that makes it honestly so much more fucking terrifying.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Yeah.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

I have to say, coming out of this, it makes me... Really feel for every parent out there who has a teenager or a near teenager who's having to deal with this because I mean, one of the ideas that's kind of throughout adolescence, I would say, especially in the back half is this idea that his parents are reckoning with at the end in like, how did we make this monster effectively?

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

And yet a monster that we are still claiming as our own. They're not disowning him. They're not pushing him away like he is still their son. And one of the things they talk about is like they thought he was safe because he was in his room. And this idea that the danger has transcended the boundaries of your home, that it is infiltrating, that there really is no way to keep it out other than.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

To try to be more present in their lives, to try to put them on these kind of more constructive paths. And I think that's where you get ultimately like the Bascom parallel with his son, Adam, who also is a kid at school who is bullied, who also is kind of a bit of a social outcast.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

And you see it in action. Like you see the kids picking on him and it sucks and it's terrible. And ultimately, there are a lot of kind of minor parallels between Bascom and Eddie, right? They're both like working men who have long hours, who come back late, who aren't as present in their kid's life as they may want to be. And yet Adam is on this one path and Jamie is on this other path.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

And it's such a fine line between them that... like drawing up any specific causality would be a failure of judgment it is it's so complex and it's so difficult to assess like why this happens to one kid and not the other and i i appreciate this show trying to at least wrestle with that idea yeah i think i think ending episode two with bascom connecting with his kid

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

But it's sort of like... I mean, it depends on how good the chips are. If the chips are great, then maybe we're on the road.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Yes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Yes. And I think it's good characterization for Bascom, too, that this is a guy who's very smart and very good at his job and a good investigator. And he's in totally over his head when it comes to anything related to the Internet.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

You're embarrassing yourself and me.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

I think episode two does a good job of illustrating some of that, too. Just like the way in which... Not just teenagers or teenagers, but this particular generation of teenagers and the way they respond to things and the way that like even Katie's death is something that's kind of being snickered about by some of the kids in the school.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

And that's look, that is a tale as old as time, like teenagers trying to cope with tragedy and not knowing how to do it and making ridiculous and terrible jokes. That's always been a thing. Yeah.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

But the ways in which some of the information, ultimately some of the worldview that we're talking about that Jamie gets a hold of or really gets a hold of him, that's stuff that can course through a school as fast as it can through comments on his Instagram, right?

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

The word of mouth was exceptionally strong, I would say.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

I suspect more so adults.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

I think the effect that you described of if you are a certain age, you immediately think to everyone you know who is in that tween to teen bracket and how they may tangentially be involved in these sorts of worlds, whether they know it or like it or not. Yeah. That's something that's, I think, so much easier to do as an adult looking down in age versus for teens looking across themselves.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

I just want to say one... I want to clear out one final moment for episode four in particular. And I will say, to me, the biggest payoff of the one-er style, a lot of it is in episode three. I think that's an incredible piece of work. But what we get from Stephen Graham and Christine Tremarco in episode four...

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

I think it was that it was a surprise that it caught people off guard, that it just kind of popped up on Netflix without a ton of fanfare, despite it being a pretty extravagant production. And so people happen upon this in their feed. Try it because maybe they love Stephen Graham. Maybe they just are looking for something to watch. And I think if you don't know what you're getting into...

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

as they are, as they are processing as parents and they've been through a day that I imagine is like many of their days where they try to pretend some things are normal and everything just comes crashing down.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Like the idea of normalcy is not available to these people at this time and the way it becomes fractured and the way that they start falling apart and the way that they start diagnosing and questioning, like, was it this thing that I did? Was it my temper that led him down this particular path? Uh, I think is just a remarkable piece of acting among other things.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

And in particular, Stephen Graham and his character, Eddie going into Jamie's room at the end of the finale. Holy fuck. I mean, just sitting on his son's bed, tucking in his teddy bear, sobbing and apologizing to his son that can't be there. It just fucking laid me out, man.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

And I think the power of this show is if I ever listened to the song that is playing during that sequence for the rest of my life, that's Aurora's through the eyes of a child.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

I'm just going to be wrecked. And it's going to take me right back to that moment. And it's like, for everything that we said about the pit, like to me, adolescence, it also has its moments of like, let me say this part out loud really quickly before we move on. But then it lands it with this. And so that to me is why everything feels so different in the show.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

As far as, as far as messaging within television is concerned.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Yes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Well, especially when he's crying over the murderer of a teenage girl.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

And so, to me, it's the magic of this show that Jamie, in scenes, can make you forget for a second that he's a murderer. And that his parents can make you forget that what you are feeling and what you're crying about and what you're experiencing is sympathy and pity and regret over, if not a murderer, then the tragedy that made this kid a murderer.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

And that's like a wider societal tragedy as much as anything.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

This show can really knock you out. It's pretty heavy emotional territory that they're getting into, as you might guess from the subject matter. Anytime a child is involved in some sort of serious crime, we're wading into something pretty deep. I think it handles those themes and those ideas about as well as a project like this can.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

I really hope if you're listening this far, you've already seen this show. And if you somehow haven't, even after everything you've heard, I would encourage you to watch it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

And I don't know how you feel overall, Joe, but I would say from this... At a distance, trying to decide should you watch adolescence or not, I would give it basically my strongest possible recommendation if you have the stomach for some more serious, like true to cultural commentary of our real world sorts of themes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Don't just listen to us. Listen to everyone else who's watching this show and is driving it up the Netflix charts on a daily basis.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

I think that might be disrespectful to the show.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

I'm Rob Mahoney.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Here's the question. Do we want to tip the hand as to what happens beyond episode one? Because I feel like where it goes and how surprising this show is and what it wants to tackle, to me, is part of the thrill of it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Oh, in that case, you know what? Let's just jump straight to the end.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

It's definitely Snatch, first and foremost. Although, look, let's put respect on the Venoms' names.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

If we simply must. I do think he's had an incredible wide-ranging career in terms of what he can pull off on screen, but the physical presence that he brings to something... And brings to something like Snatch and brings to his whole genre of like gangster and gangster adjacent roles that he's played throughout his career.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

I think informs a lot of kind of what is what is priming us to watch him on screen here in Adolescence as Eddie, where there is the implication throughout a lot of the stages of the story of is this character violent? Is this an abusive father? Is this someone who? Does have an anger problem. And we hear a lot more about it than we end up seeing earlier in the stage of the story.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

So we're filling in a lot of the blanks in our minds as to what that looks like. And it looks like Stephen Graham, a dude who's so jacked he's about to pop out of his polo shirt. It's hard not to infer some things about that just from that character and that actor. And they know they know exactly what they're doing in having him in this role.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Here we are complaining about recording multiple podcasts. Stephen Graham is just like, yeah, multiple extravagant productions in one calendar year. No big.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Yeah.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

I think there's a lot of ways where that could have gone horribly wrong, coloring in the lines that Netflix provides you as far as that kind of structure. This construction, and I don't feel this way about a lot of one-shot stuff, which usually can be overly showy, pointless just for the point of extravagance and the point of kind of showing off the cinematography with no actual narrative value.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

I think the one-shot construction for adolescents specifically brings a lot to the table in terms of the story that they're trying to tell and the impact of how it ultimately hits. There's There's a couple of different ways in which I think it really, really pays off. And as you said, we can kind of circle back to some of that stuff.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

But if they were filling a brief, I think mission incredibly accomplished as far as that goes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

And I will say this, too. If you haven't seen if you've already watched the show and you haven't seen any of the behind the scenes featurettes and footage as far as how they made it, it's remarkable to go back and watch and to read about the process where basically it was like a three week.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

We sure are. Will we be bobbing for pineapples live on air, Jo? Can you commit to that?

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

Segment into every episode week one being rehearsal among just the actors week two being a rehearsal with the cameras involved, which you have to understand, like are dancing around and moving through people and out windows in a really kinetic way have to be marked out, have to be staged in their way. And then week three is filming two takes a day for five days.

The Prestige TV Podcast

Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?

And so the idea that given the emotional heft of. I'm not just like what these actors have to execute in terms of hitting their marks and the very delicate staging and everything interlocking in such an integral way to the story you're trying to tell, but also deliver the biggest emotional moment in minute 40 of a take is just a ridiculous ask of this cast.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Please email us at monkeyshootout at gmail.com. A very normal email address.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Well, we explored some of them quite closely, but maybe not in that exact way.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Definitely so. And I would say as an offshoot of that, maybe the variation for this season is not taking someone who has no ties, but taking someone who has them, sever them, and then they become vulnerable in their way, right? Like, if the truth about what Tim has done gets out... all of a sudden those familial ties aren't as strong as they once were.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

And I think all of the rat lifts would be spiraling out of control. I don't think Tim is the dead body. I think he has the gun in his hands almost too early in the story for him to actually be the one who ends up dead. Uh, but he could be involved in some way. It's like, you can start to triangulate the way these things might connect, right?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Are you, Joe, up on Paradise? Yes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Tim has the gun guy talks, potentially trying to get it back. We see this very like, uh, lingering shot of a security camera early in the episode where I would imagine Guy Talk is able to piece together the fact that Tim has the gun in the first place.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

You also have Belinda who is jumpy at everything in a way that could keep her alive if Greg's Googling turns into ill intentions, turns into him coming after her. And so you can see all these people getting increasingly antsy. And obviously there's the gun in the middle of the room now that's going to change the dynamics of a lot of this stuff.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

But I have no idea which way it's going to be pointing at the end of the day. Other than I feel good that Chelsea will not die. She's almost been in too much danger too fast. I don't believe the final destination of what she's proposing. And I don't think Tim is going to die. But other than that, I'm open to most permutations.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

You know what? It was like pulpy fun. And then one episode later in the season just kicks into high fucking gear.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Not a great guy, but a great character.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

If you work for Interpol, please hit us up. I would love to know mechanically how this works. I was actually thinking about it. Once she finds out that Greg Gary is the guy she thinks that he is, is a murderer, What do you do if you're in Belinda's position? Do you go to the hotel staff? Do you call the Thai police? Do you call the American authorities?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Episode seven really, really pulls it together in a fascinating way.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Especially because he's at least an expat, probably still an American citizen. Do you need to work out Italian extradition laws before you even start going to anybody?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

No, but they're just there for the anonymity of all the other bald guys. It's just that you can't pick them out of a lineup.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I do.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Okay. Well, there's fewer speeches about Chinese lithium mines and how they're ruining the environment. So I think you're going to be open to this one.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Yes, I think it would make total sense. And I see there's two variations of that. One is a very internal dark week of the soul where it is him going through all these possibilities, spiraling out of control, freaking out. And then the air is taken out of the balloon. And actually, it's all going to be fine. Got, you know, his lawyer cut a deal. Something happened.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Kenny Wynn is found liable for this, that and the other. And all of a sudden, Tim's off the hook, off the hook. Yeah. Or we had an email or Tim reach out to us a couple episodes ago, honestly, about the possibility of Tim being out of touch with his phone. And we see him go back to the phone despite Pam's objections in this episode. Back to the phone today. But what if he spirals out of control?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

His family finds out the truth from him or from some other means. He has to deal with all the personal consequences of this. Maybe there's even some horrible outcome he can't take back or the family is irrevocably broken. And then he gets back on his phone and, oh, yeah, now everything is actually fine.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

And so it's not so much that real consequences come for people of this kind of privilege, but the most real damage that they can do is the damage that they do to themselves.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

And she's very, very right. If not more judgmental, honestly.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Yeah, I don't think it's going to go great. Honestly, it's a little thing and maybe it's truthful and we just haven't been given the full picture of what's going on there. Her referring to what I think we understand to be a temple or a monastery as a meditation center, I thought was kind of a telling little detail.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

It's like for her, this is a very specific, very westernized, very sanitized kind of idea of what she's walking into. And I think she's going to be And for a lot more than that, if she actually does end up there in any capacity at all, ultimately, I think she's going to walk to the edge and blanch. I think that's probably what the future of that character holds.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I love I love a zag. And Mike White is as adept with those zags as anybody, like in subverting our expectations.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

He is a zaggy. I don't like that.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

As far as Rick, though, I'm glad you brought them read a bit as far as, you know, him letting go of his story, because as soon as she said that and then we get deeper into the episode and find out the extent of what Rick's story really is, which is a story that his mom told him about his dad, who is just the kindest, gentlest soul who has ever lived. A do-gooder.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

A do-good, a straight Robin Hood type out here working for the good of the people who was murdered in cold blood and definitely never did anything wrong and also definitely is not Hollinger himself.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I feel like when Amrita is telling him that he can let go of his story, it's as much telling him he can let go of that story and not just this creation of who he is and his identity.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

But the only thing he really knows about himself and this formative gem that he has now created everything that we know Rick to be from is something that his mom told him on her deathbed that just, I'm going to say, does not seem to be very true.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

You're going to need to be more specific.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

But he's a zaggy at the end of the day.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Yeah, associate makes more sense to the extent that they're connected at all, but I'm just not sure that Greg and Rick are going to have any overt connection in quite that sort of way, other than being at the same place at the same time. And as you said, maybe if the authorities get involved, they both think they're being chased in some capacity. I can see that sort of connection.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I can see them bumping up against each other in all sorts of ways.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

And frankly, I'm a little disappointed we didn't get a little more yacht interaction between those two because Greg was just sequestered on the top deck.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Also very true. Two true lone wolves on the yacht. Never the twain shall meet.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

That was not great.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I will say, I know Piper got the title in this episode, but Sourpuss Sad Sack Shithead is really Rick's title to lose. He is wearing the crown in this episode. And Chelsea is over it, and I think rightly over it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

So there's levels to this murder charges before girlfriends. I think that is his order of operations. He's got bigger fish to fry.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

But he is furiously Googling. You know, there's a lot of great Googling going on in this episode. It's just, you know, Belinda and Greg Gary both connecting dots, trying to pull it all together. Yeah. The Internet is a magical place. Now, why couldn't he have done that Googling while he was on the yacht sitting there by himself? There's no Wi-Fi on that thing. Is the reception that bad?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

The gun is bad. But look, I've been hard on Guy Talk. I've been skeptical of his ability to read the room. Yeah. We're going to give him some grace today. Not in the professional sense, but at least in the personal sense. Professionally, he might be the worst person at this job in the entire hotel, like in terms of fulfilling his specific capacity. Very, very bad at his job.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I can't say I've been in the middle of the ocean on a yacht all that often. I imagine it's not great. But if you're on a three story yacht of that size, you're nothing has to have some sort of satellite.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Are you a woman of the sea, Jo?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I was thinking more like Portrait of a Lady on Fire, sprint to the edge and come to a dead stop dramatically at the last moment.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Is that a goal? Is that what we want? I don't think it's what we want.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

But you're a New York Times bestselling author, Joanna Robinson.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

These things are not the same.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Its own breakout.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Those rocky cliffs are perilous. You really got to be careful out there.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

And especially as a template, as we're seeing now for what Tim is going through and the sort of like self-disappearance he's at least considering in multiple ways.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

It's not just him getting the gun, but him kind of talking out loud in his conversations with Gary, with Greg, Greg, Gary. Right. I keep wanting to do Glenn, Gary, Gary, Glenn Ross.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

just sort of talking aloud in his conversations with greg gary about like the hiding and seeking and kind of like the do you like it here question even feels kind of pointed in a way where it's like he's at least kicking the tires and exploring his options as far as like what happens if i have to stay here yeah um it's it's to me it's giving like people wanting to play in the db cooper space right what is this unsolved mystery and how can i wrap it into sort of the story that i'm telling yeah

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

North Carolinian, I think, right? My hand was hit pretty hard after I believe I said North Carolinian on an early episode of this podcast.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

No disrespect to the Carolinians of all varieties.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I have to say, with all the accent work being done on this show, this is just the native accent, I think. But Pam's, oh, no, when Tim comes to retrieve his phone is just a delight. And I've just been saying it aloud to myself ever since I finished the episode.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I think we just have to look at the facts of this episode, which is Mook is reciprocating, I would say, in a degree that is slightly different than in previous episodes. She is flagging him down. She is pursuing him, wanting him to come watch her dance. She is swinging by in her dancing outfit just to show it off a little bit.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Geographically, it just kind of makes sense.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I'm a little disappointed that we're only getting, it seems, age-appropriate partiers going to the full moon party. I was really hoping that a Gary or Rick or even Fabian would show up at the party. Somebody who you wouldn't expect beyond just the Saxon, Lachlan, Chloe, Chelsea. Those are people I can see going to a party like this.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I wanted to see some fish out of water, and I'm a little bummed that it seems we may not get that.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Enthusiastically? Joyously? I think I would commandeer a super soaker and jump into the party. That seems like what I would be wanting to do. But the fancies are after a very, very specific, very, very narrow definition of fun. And very, I think, performative definition of fun, if we're taking it from Jacqueline's perspective, especially.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

And I will say her initial response to being asked out on the date I read is like, oh, I'm not sure that she ever actually agreed to it before to rush off. But it seems like later in the episode, we have some confirmation that they are planning for a date.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

That responding as if they are in an active war zone strikes me as a little bit disproportionate to the small streams of water they are being sprayed with.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Well, they lay it out pretty cleanly. What they want is to go sit by a slightly different pool with a slightly different vibe.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

The olds were there.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I mean, in their defense, all the people she hated talking to, it seems like left.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

It's people she might actually enjoy a little bit more.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

See, I would have loved to see that.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Victoria in sweaty withdrawal at the full moon party. That's a great episode.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Well, and with that, just like such a tailored existence, not just in terms of the people you're surrounded with, but being able to do exactly the thing that you want to do and know exactly where you need to go to do it or delegate that to an assistant or a PA or whatever.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

It's like she's not a person who's had to make a lot of decisions for herself, probably, or like actually go out and get things done for herself in a long time. And so this idea that her attempts to have party girl fun are foiled by basically just like a bad recommendation for Valentin, to be honest with you. And she's like a really angry response to it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

And I will say with the fancies overall and specifically with Jacqueline, you're seeing the sass is on front street right now. Like it is coming at the passive aggression is coming up through her pores. And we're starting to see some real things happen between them.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

And I think a clearer dividing line between Jacqueline and the other two women than we've ever seen before in terms of how they are looking at her and how she is treating them in this, which is very much I am on vacation with my girlfriends. They are the tagalongs on my journey to find us the appropriate party.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

The golden hour sunbeams behind her head. The whole scene is coming together, and I will say this. We got many, many great emails from people kind of walking us through some of the specifics of... Yeah. Based on that read, it does seem like they're kind of falling into those modes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

They were enjoying their drinks. Yeah. Enjoying the sun.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Also deeply satisfying to see the kids parked outside the storefront waiting for them to come back out.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Why?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I could see that. I honestly didn't read into it that way.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Yeah, this is a place where you can spend a little bit of time if you are any kind of normal person on vacation and have enjoyed the scene, enjoy the festivities. But clearly, I see it more as like his inability to read them and what they're after, right?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Like him sending them to the wrong party in the first place, him dropping them at, you know, in the middle of this like market doesn't seem to understand what they're actually after or who these people actually are. And they I mean, Jacqueline especially seems quite offended by that.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

They're definitely not criminals.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I will say, Jo, I want to give you all two credit because when we do see these certainly not robber friends of Valentine's, the giant golden eagle shirt and guy with the snake tattoo that goes all the way to somewhere, I'm not exactly sure where or what the manifestation of that is. I kind of hope we get to see it now. You can't tease us with the snake tattoo and then not reveal it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

But I would like to consult the text logs, Joe, because you and I were texting with our guy Jacoby, I think like two weeks ago about Valentin and some of the characterization here. And specifically, one thing you brought up was that he really should be named Alexi by type, by look. This is an Alexi. And I have to tell you, Alexi has now arrived.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

He's simply Valentin's right hand man and not Valentin himself. So I'll do credit for you for spotting the Alexi from a mile away.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I love this for you. I love the way you're wielding your educational background. Really putting it to work.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Yeah, you don't know what's in there. I'd be careful, Jo.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

This was the nonfiction tome you were referring to?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

This is not my variety. No.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Long-form nonfiction. John McPhee kind of stuff.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

That's my zone.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

All that iPad time really paying off.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

They are sort of giving a very familiar presentation, which might let Guy talk off the hook as far as my previous concerns about how he would react if Mook wasn't as interested as he was.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

It seems to be working. I want to give him credit for that.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Well, I think the shell of respectability is what Piper is bringing to him a lot of the time, right? It's this idea of like a certain kind of conversational decency, a blanching at some of the things that Saxon and Victoria say, for example. Yeah.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

and the darkness that is increasingly winning is Saxon putting a beer in his hands and having him exercise and do some of that closeup magic for the ladies. And they, they really do seem to be enjoying it. You know, I'm not saying there's not a dark underbelly to closeup magic in general. Clearly there is, but Lachlan seems to be killing it with that.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

That said, on a show like White Lotus, the idea that we're getting a very familiar presentation potentially of a type of romance does not make me feel great about their chances for these two crazy kids to end up together.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I agree with you that it's a little too overt. That's what's always so hard with White Lotus is the line between clue and such overt red herring ism.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

And that one almost it feels too obvious. It feels too above board. Everything I feel like that's going to be leading up to to the extent that anyone is dead, which, again, we don't know that anyone is at all, will not be somebody who is overtly talking about death and dying so much over the course of the scene. That's going to be my guess. But again, who knows what happens?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

uh i've got two more sort of like prompts for you yeah i prepped you one before we get to those anything else you want to make sure that we talk about on the saxon and locky front now that they're they're shipping off to the party yeah why do i feel like these two are one party drug away from doing something super weird

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

The incest just keeps getting escalated and escalated and escalated. And I'm just imagining, you know, true to the bacchanalia, true to the debauchery that could potentially happen at the full moon party, some giant group ordeal in which they are both somehow involved and end up getting challengers into this thing. I just, I'm concerned, Joe.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I'm not looking forward to it, but I just see bad things ahead for these two.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Just one quick shout out to Chelsea for a lethally effective cry pout. I don't think that I fully understood the power of Amy Lou's teeth specifically and what it would bring to the pout situation. But it's a level of escalation that's just not even fair. And you understand why Rick is effectively powerless against it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

The one we just saw.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I think she will. Yeah. I mean, what's weird about that is you often hear that shooting for TV and film on and around boats is very complex and very annoying, not a pleasant experience for the people involved. And so on the one hand, yes, you're on a yacht, but you're shooting on a yacht, which is not quite the same thing. Maybe maybe she enjoyed it just because she gets to vibe out.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

She doesn't have a lot to do this episode. And so she just gets to hang out, sip on a drink and not be concerned, not be concerned with the angles and the boom mics for this particular part of the proceedings.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Have we?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

In that case, Michelle Mahan, Carrie Coon, Leslie Bitt.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Just bumping through the roof this episode.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

It's in the works. The rights have been acquired.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Spoilers for the entire Scream series, I guess.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I ended with three answers.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

One, Jennifer Tilly. Maybe I'm just being Jennifer biased here, but I feel like- Great pick. I feel like she could really pull off the Coolidge element pretty effectively.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Two, Katherine Hahn going full ham mode. I could also see that. The other one, I think, is a bit more of a reach given the roles that she likes to play. But I've seen such incredible range from Melanie Linsky that I could see her playing up in a way that she doesn't often have an opportunity to do and being a proper Tanya McQuad voice and all.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Sydney Sweeney was the fourth one.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Why have we not gotten young Tanya? You know, these are the spinoffs we deserve.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Me Tanya. I feel like McQuad is such a great word, though. We need McQuad in there somewhere.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I'm gonna take you on a long walk, Joe. I've got four tiers of guessing slash not guessing that's going to happen here.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Tier one. The person I hope with all due respect that we do not get Jamie Lee Curtis. It's been done. We've seen it. The bear. Great. Love it. Let's let's move. Let's move on. Let's get some other people in the mix.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

to if only Jessica Chastain or Tilda Swinton were on this show who I think would be wonderful fits for the White Lotus universe I think maybe a little too starry for the kinds of performers we usually get in these roles so I'm going to say that they're probably not going to happen

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Some other possibilities that I'm going to throw on the board, but I don't think are quite fitting the bill of what I'm looking for. Brendan Fraser, who I think would make sense in sort of timeline, make sense in sort of like the kinds of roles that he might be up for. J.K. Simmons, who I think could be wonderful in all sorts of roles, criminal, Interpol, guest at the hotel otherwise.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I think Mahershala Ali would be awesome on this show and also is the kind of like –

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

like chameleonic performer where i could see him doing any variety of things in terms of how a guest star would show up but my my actual guess is eddie redmayne as a raver going full burning man mode at the moon party i just think he has that juice in him and maybe that's like a little jupiter ascending uh whisper shouting dynamic play going on there but i i could see that for him

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

That's the official Rob Mahoney guess on the guest star. So I guess we'll check back in a week and see how we did.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

There's some there's a pun there. You know, I'm going to abandon ship on that one. I'm going to I'm going to zaggy. I'm going to zaggy that thing straight out of here.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Even after the gun snafu of this week.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I'm Rob Mahoney.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I am having a good time with it. I don't feel that it's measurably different. To me, this show has always been some variety of this. A bunch of different character studies kind of overlapping, kind of not. Various boiling points reaching their temperature over a handful of episodes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I don't really consider white Lotus to be a super plot heavy show, which is why the, the kind of dangling bait of the dead bodies is always like such a fun and silly part of it. Cause it's so clear what's happening there, but I'm never really waiting for white Lotus to like explode. Like maybe I'm waiting for some characters to bump up into each other in a different way.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

You know, like we've, we've gotten all these hints about like Tim and Rick, for example, how much they dislike each other. And it's like, at some point they're going to collide. I, at least I would hope in a way that's kind of fun and interesting. And I'm, I'm eager to see it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

But I'm not I'm not waiting for the next plot development in White Lotus, the show about a bunch of rich people at a luxury resort sitting around and pulling each other apart. I'm just kind of watching them pull each other apart.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I would say two things, too, in the defense of people who are feeling the pace at this point and feeling it as a bit of more of a slow presentation. We've now gotten like three episodes in a row of Rick talking about going to Bangkok, but not going to Bangkok. And we've gotten at least two episodes of people talking about the full moon party, but not actually being at the full moon party.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

And so there is a little bit more of a lead up in terms of some of those events that I'm hoping will really pay off when we get there. But there's been some some serious prelude for those things.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

We are indeed. We're covering White Lotus, obviously. That's why we're here today. We will be taping an episode of The Pit that we'll be dropping in the indeterminate future. Great. Covering through episode 11. Cannot wait. We've been getting, Jo, a lot of people clamoring for our specific takes on The Pit, on some of the big revelations of the recent episodes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I'm just saying, I woke up, poured myself a cup of coffee, opened the old Prestige TV email box, and was met with a startling number of emails about whether British men are circumcised or not. Who am I to dispute people's area of expertise? But I'm just saying, it's been a very normal one over here for the last couple of days.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

What a tease. What a setup, Jo.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

This is why you're a pro. I will say this. Yeah, I have no idea whether it's real or not. It does seem like in this show, which is not shy about male nudity, it has been almost exclusively prosthetics. And in fact, I was watching an interview with Steve Zahn where he was talking about his prosthetic junk for season one. What was interesting to me was not that it was a prosthetic.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

That's pretty common. It was that he was presented with the prosthetic by Mike White to say, like, do you give the sign off on this prosthetic junk for yourself? So regardless if it is Jason Isaacs in all his glory or not, it is what he and many craftspeople believe that Tim Ratliff looks like.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Yeah. Look forward to our future video on the prestige on the Ringer TV YouTube channel where we all take lorazepam and just kind of just coast through it together.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I do want to do a lorazepod. I think it'd make for great content.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

A lot going on in the ER, to say the least. And of course, we're covering Severance. Every week, all week, the emails are streaming in. They are increasingly unhinged. I'm loving every second of it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

So very much so. But the anxiety is already high for Victoria. On the on the sweat front, it's going to take some worked out sweat Goggins in this episode who is just moist, perpetually moist. Yeah. But she could potentially catch up, you know, if she goes into some shutters and sweating here.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I could really see it for her. Regardless, look, our girl needs needs help getting through like two conversations on the yacht.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

She's going to come crashing back down to Earth real fast.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

But she was already popping the lorazepam at the resort eating the melon.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

Just to take the edge off to take the edge off.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

The cringe as she's watching these guys and their younger Thai girlfriends from across the boat is wonderful.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok

I also love the reaction to the reaction when she prompts the one Australian guy if he and his girlfriend are married. And he sighs so hard, I thought he might pass out. Just the mere question being posed, not appreciative of it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

And you are but a mere visitor, despite the fact that I actually know nothing about what it means to be here and live here or practice this faith at all.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Exactly. Yeah, you're approaching people you think may have murdered a woman you met several years ago and they give you a blank stairwell in response. That's the kind of nightmare you have.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Without a doubt. I mean, I'm excited for the yacht trip over there and all the exciting possibilities, especially as it seems like our groups are going to be intermingling a little bit in some potentially surprising ways. And we already get the developing...

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

love may be strong, lust triangle between Greg Gary, Chloe, and Saxon, who have now been officially formally introduced and maybe raising some eyebrows at each other over one of them being a douche. Look, who am I to judge if someone has a type? You know, they're into what they're into. But... All of these people are going to be in one space with potentially as many rat lifts as want to come.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I think Rick is assumingly going to be off in Bangkok, which is unfortunate because I would love to see him get after it at the rave. I think the raving characters I am most excited about are those you would not anticipate ever ending up at a rave. So Victoria at a rave. Let's fucking go. Honestly, Gary at a rave. I want to see what this guy is up to.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Nobody's guy.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

It did seem slightly more plausible this week.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I still don't think White Lotus is that kind of show. And honestly, Mike White has seemed over the years so conflicted about the murder part of White Lotus that the idea of wiping out half the cast in a mass murder doesn't seem like what he is interested in. But I am willing and able to be surprised, clearly.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

And I didn't even think about the outdoor shower, the falling risks of the outdoor shower while hopped up on the Razzapam. Yeah, it's a great theory. I think there's a very reasonable chance of that.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I think based on this week, I'm going to say yes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Well, clearly not, or else she would be having a more outsized response.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

feels like it aligns with the show i mean this is a show that talks about privilege that talks about class like if you thought you were tuning into white lotus to get away from the political sphere uh i don't know what show you've been watching and you are sadly mistaken unfortunately like this is a show that deals with the economic realities of these people and what they care about and don't care about what they value and don't value

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Putting the name Trump in there to me is just an extension of that. In this case, like a very sharp dividing wedge between these three women, one of whom is, you know, she's not a Republican, Joe. She is an independent. Let's let's let's be very honest about everything that's happening here. We really want to talk about Trump tonight. OK, the bless your heart magic that plays across Kate's face.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Yep.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Unbelievable acting from Bibb here.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

That said, Kate has said that she's from Austin.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I think... This is what someone would say if they are from the area more broadly. I'm going to guess it's more Lakeway Bee Cave like that. That's the kind of vibe that I'm getting from Kate's overall deal, which, as we can infer, is like country club husband, like corporate high life.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

You know, she is she's living a kind of privileged existence that is not demographically Austin, but is certainly adjacent to Austin. Like there's a lot of very white, very affluent, very conservative parts around the city proper.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Far, far away. The last thing you would want is to be on his radar at that point.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

So can, can you expand please?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

How does that make you feel that that's the energy that you put out into the world?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I think it is, too. I think it's it's so powerful in that way because you're right. These are three women who have a lot of things in common at the same time are in quite different places, but they are paired off in all of those fascinating ways. I hadn't even thought about the career like the careerist aspect and how Jacqueline and Lori might have that potentially in common.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

And we we get to see them spend some quality time together, if at Kate's expense for a lot of this episode.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

But like it's cool to see all of these different ways in which it is naturally two versus one in every possible direction within this friend group. And that only works if it feels balanced. If you're going to create this dynamic like you could write the show around having a very clear in group out group.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

But it's more interesting if it's sort of a revolving door and one of them is always feeling a little bit left out of whatever is happening.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

A lot of masculine feminine in this episode, like very directly called out.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

It feels like a real swooping in situation for Jacqueline, potentially. I liked what you mentioned, Joe, on the Sunday pod about the flex of Jacqueline here. It's not just pushing Lori, but let me help you set this up. Let me make this happen for you. Not dissimilar from what Saxon is doing with Lockie, right? Like all hands on deck. Like, I'm going to hook you up.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I'm going to show you how to do this. And the dynamic between the two women is a little different, but it is very much like pushing in a way that feels like projecting, in a way that feels like Jacqueline really wants to sleep with Valentin. And you can imagine a scenario where maybe Lori does get some confidence. Maybe she does end up pursuing Valentin.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

But in all of this... Laurie is feeling like a little tentative at the beginning of this episode about that very idea. She talks about how, you know what, he probably wouldn't even want it anyway, Joe. He probably wouldn't be interested in someone like me.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Meanwhile, in real life. I don't know if you caught this last week, but Carrie Coon went on the Marin podcast and was talking about her relationship with the legend Tracy Letts, their marriage. Yeah. There was a bit of a misunderstanding where listeners thought she had nodded in the direction of like, actually, maybe we have an open marriage, maybe of an open relationship.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Listener, let me tell you, the Internet fucking exploded. So Carrie, Carrie Coon herself getting lots of interest from parties. She is not even remotely interested in reciprocating. Our girl Lori is just going through it, though. She doesn't she doesn't seem to understand her appeal to the world.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

She had to issue a follow-up statement in which she said that her relationship, she described it as open-minded, describing their kind of more modern sensibilities across the board, not open. And of note for our White Lotus purposes, in that statement, did the speak no, hear no, see no evil monkey emojis all lined up?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Is it good gorilla marketing? Is it good monkey marketing?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

It brought an incredible light to my life to see Goggins in charmer mode again. And this is relatively muted by Goggins standards. I'm actually starting to believe that Rick has a perpetual migraine commentary and that it's maybe not just an excuse to get out of these conversations because he always seems very burdened by something. Very burdened by...

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Clearly his upbringing, I'm sure some level of constant anxiety. Like my guy needs to smoke so fucking bad in this episode that he has to go on a whole ass odyssey to get some weed. Yeah. So I understand where he's coming from, but he can turn it on when he needs to turn it on.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

And it's certainly enough to kind of start putting his plan in motion here with Sritala as far as how do we get to Bangkok? Sritala. Sritala. Sorry. Just kidding. Tough scenes for Fabian in this episode as well. You think you know somebody. You think you know how to pronounce their name. Turns out you've been mistaken for a very long time.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

But yeah, Rick is getting where he needs to go, ultimately. And as far as Chelsea's part of that, I will say... Probably knows more than she's letting on and is more aware of what is happening. I think just kind of like letting everything roll off her back and allowing the universe to play out as it does.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

But she seems too perceptive to be oblivious to the fact that Rick is weird and shady and is like doing all these random little jobs all the time. He's doing something.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I mean, it seems quite lush. Imagine not knowing who Jason Isaacs is if he shows up at your front door. That's a tough beat, but an acting coach to have.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

But look, there's plenty in this for her, right? Like she gets to be at this nice resort. She gets to experience this kind of life and enjoy all the privileges of it. Like, It is interesting to hear that, though, that maybe at one point in time they had an arrangement and now it seems like they have a relationship. Right. Like her using soulmate, her talking about being his life partner. Right.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

That is a maybe overstating what their relationship is from Rick's perspective, but I think is indicative of a certain level of seriousness as far as what they are to each other.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

We are available, by the way, for voice cameos. If you need a 911 dispatcher, a concerned lawyer, a panicking co-worker as the office is being raided by the FBI, for all of your projects. I don't want to speak for you, Joe, but I think we would be interested. We would take the meeting.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Right.

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‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Kind of kind of a different different breed of people pleaser from Lockie. There's like the version where you try to like mediate conflict or step out of it in the way he does. And she is a de-escalator in a totally different way. Like she can bring people together. She can talk them down. She can make Rick perk up in spots here and there in a way that no one else can.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Bless Chelsea and her presence on this show. It's wonderful every single time. And in very good spirits for someone who just got bitten by a fucking liberated Cobra Cobra.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

You're someone who seems like you should know things about astrology and also someone who looks like they would be receptive to a Lyft driver's rants.

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‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

We truly do.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I imagine I don't look like somebody who would know something about astrology.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

But sometimes our preconceptions are correct. And I, in fact, do not. Not my area of expertise.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Cancer.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

You just say something vague and ominous and I'll go along with it. You know, a water sign. Emotional. I don't know. I don't know the specifics of what it means to be a cancer, but I'm sure our listeners can let us know. Please. We didn't mention a top. Please do email us about anything going on with White Lotus. Prestige TV at Spotify dot com or more importantly, monkey shootout at Gmail dot com.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I think it depends on the way that she kind of weaves into the story of these other characters, right? If she is just sort of the person who owns the hotel and vaguely interacts and sometimes performs and then dies, that's not super interesting.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

But if strange things happen in Bangkok, if she becomes even more intertwined with the fancies, even more intertwined with Rick in whatever game he's playing here...

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

and rick as he's kind of kind of gearing up to talk to her in the first place there's so much like rick snake stuff happening in this episode overall but yeah he's very like predatory in terms of the way he's almost like stalking her to her table like kind of yeah judging the scene waiting for his moment and i don't know how to interpret that within the context of whether she dies or not but certainly as far as the game he's playing it it does make sense

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

First of all, would never go to a snake show.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

No circumstances.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

He's great. Good information. Great delivery. Knows his way around a cobra. I would trust those guys with my life. I just don't want to go to the snake show.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

tries to parlay getting pistol whipped in the head into a bodyguard job. Okay. He gets no indication whatsoever that sweet Allah is interested in him being her bodyguard. No, no affirmation, whatever, like whatsoever, but that does not stop him from flagging down Mook as she's talking with her friends and walking with her friends to give her this non update about his life.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Very important to him that she knows all about it. Uh, hollinger's bodyguards then come to him and ask him to please chill in fact maybe you were closing to closer to losing your job than getting promoted to being a bodyguard the character of that conversation how would you describe it they come to bully him

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I'm going to say some people... Mr. Big Guy? Some people deserve to be bullied sometimes, Joe. This guy is... I hate your anti-guy talk agenda.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

He is way too big for his britches right now when all that he did was fail in his job. Like, the stance that he should maybe be fired for this, I actually think is pretty reasonable, right? Like, he had one job, and it's don't let cars zoom in and out of here, and he did both.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

No, I want to interrogate a little bit because I think a lot of people interpret Mook's reactions to guy talk in which she is very smiley and I think generally friendly as her being interested in his advances. She has expressed no such interest at any point to anything he has said. It has all been a polite smile, a nod. I will see you later. A very friendly exchange. She's being polite to him.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

And he is going way hard all the time in a way that, to me, spells trouble.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Her brothers, all that stuff.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

But he he made that pitch and I would not say she jumped at it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

They might have the, like, look, if both of us are single in 20 years, let's figure this thing out kind of arrangement. But I don't see this going well for guy talk.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Just broadly speaking? Pro if it exists. Ambiguous to me if it does. But I'm open to the possibility.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I mean, it's lovely. Belinda had herself a day. Yeah. The Gary business aside, she gets a great treatment. She gets shown around the grounds. She gets to spend some quality time with Porchai being held tenderly in a pool. What is the going rate for that? Or is that kind of an off-menu thing? Yeah.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I'm just saying it seems nice. I would do it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

If Pornchart would volunteer at my expense to hold me tenderly in a pool and help me kind of levitate and float, that sounds like a lovely afternoon.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Yeah. Could you kind of identify what you think she was reacting to? Because it's hard to tell sometimes amid an amazing score. I love the score of White Lotus. And we get the kind of like calls of the wild in like the monkey scene.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

like sounds of the jungle sense and also some like calls of the wild and every other conceivable sense happening in that score uh so it's very loud moaning very loud moaning happening you know through yoga during some of these scenes where characters are alone and kind of steaming about each other in various ways so i i don't quite know what she's identifying it sounds like maybe kind of like a creaking door like a step on wood like i couldn't quite identify it

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

You don't know. It could be anything.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

And I have to say, Jung really went off with this one. Really, really knew what he was doing.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

This is a very primal fear that I have had. I have not had nightmares about this, but it's one of those things where you read that news story, or in my case, it was on the local news or something when I was eight years old, and it gets wedged in your brain. And then what are you to do about toilet snakes? You're defenseless.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Are they coming out of gutters or where are they coming from?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

How did you feel, Joe, about Rick as someone who believes very deeply in the freedom of snakes, you know, a liberator at the end of the day?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Which I would think we have to see again. Right. It was so pointedly on camera that it's like we will see it on someone and that'll give us a tip as to who may have committed the robbery.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Chelsea, you cannot fix that cobra. You cannot fix him.

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‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

No, please. Sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I do wonder this about Rick, though, because you're right about the metaphor, which is very clear on the surface. Him in the cage, the snakes in the cage, him feeling restrained in that way. But as he's kind of talking it out with Chelsea, there's a lot of discussion about snakes being inherently evil. Right.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

And you get this bit from Rick about, well, even evil things shouldn't be treated like shit because it only makes them more evil. And as a reflection of people treating him a certain way because of what he admits are the bad things that he's done, we don't really know what those are yet.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Understandable. Putting it in context and understanding his worldview as it applies to whatever he's after with Hollinger is a little bit more complicated because we have every indication, Joe, that you were correct, that Rick is trying to get some kind of revenge from

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

It's satisfaction, some kind of satisfaction, as he says, a lot of signs pointing directly to the idea that Hollinger probably murdered his father. There was involved in some way and he's looking for satisfaction. But in that case, is Hollinger not also a snake? Is he not also someone who is not inherently evil and like shouldn't be shouldn't be met with purely evil in response?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Oh, I thought you meant dual language. But you mean, like, dual language.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I thought you were talking about the other kinds of satisfaction that Chelsea is hooking him up with.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

This is not the show for it. The bit of foreshadowing I am most concerned with at this point is not a dead body. It's not Chelsea almost dying several times in this episode. It's her holding up a tank that says, you break it, you buy it, with a broken heart on it and saying, should I buy this? It just does not seem like things are going to go well for her at the end of the day.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

And I hope Rick, snake or not, makes some kind of choice that makes sense for both of them. I just, I don't know.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

She would have pre-White Lotus if you told me and you gave me this prompt and you told me the general construction of the show. Parker Posey would be my first round pick. So dreams really do come true.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I'm going to say we might have to like step out of time a little bit just because some of the cast of these movies are getting quite up there. And so it would limit them to basically being like elderly grandparental figures popping into these stories, which would also be fine. And I would be open to.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

To me, the guest I would love.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

fred willard on this show as sort of like an ecstatic overly friendly in everyone's business kind of guest in a way that i thought we don't get often enough right we have a lot of rich people who kind of want to be in their little pods and not enough of them who want aggressively to be friends with everyone and i would love him in a in a context like this except for kate who was like remember we were at that

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

But she doesn't even want to be friends. She just wants to make the social connection and get the capital and then go back to her table.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Can you imagine the bean talk at that baby shower? It was off the charts.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Our old friend and recent friend, Joe, Bob Balaban, feels like he would be great to work the staff at the White Lotus.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

He reads as neurotic and exacting so easily that the idea of a bunch of rich, privileged guests winding him up is not a stretch of the imagination.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

He's often quite disgruntled, honestly.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I feel like Eugene Levy and Catherine O'Hara have already done like crass rich person pretty recently.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Like we've seen it admittedly in a slightly different flavor, but let's branch it out a little bit.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I had just had a bit of a feeling with Chloe, who's played by Charlotte Le Bon, as far as like she was registering in my brain is very familiar and I couldn't put a finger on why. And in this episode, it finally kind of clicked for me that she has such a Winona Ryder thing going on.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Just like a kind of a resemblance in a way, very different energies, very different kind of places in terms of like this is not a Winona part. But there's there's some kind of similarity there that's grabbing me.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Oh, yes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

What do we think of Chloe and Saxon? We wouldn't really remark upon their budding friendship.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I hear you're a douche. But she's into it, you know?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

She's into something. She's into the idea of it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I cannot bring myself to root for them, but I will be watching with great curiosity where their relationship goes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

You know, I take this with great consideration. I've thought about it. I've talked to my agents. I will not be hosting the Creep Radar podcast, despite the fact that it was so graciously offered to me.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I have not. But also, who simply has the time? You know, there are so many creeps. There are only so many hours in the day. I could not be bothered.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Creep Radar.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

All because I am empirically increasingly right about guy talk. That should qualify me for the job, but I don't want it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Well, there's so much posturing happening, especially among people of this kind of class. And I think you're right to point out Victoria's statement about trashy rich people versus non-trashy rich people. Because not only in the collective unconscious sense is there this like generational passing of humanity and understanding and shared experience.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

There's also like a pervasive broad humanity that we are all tapping into together collectively. Right. And so this idea that we are drawing these very strict defining lines between us that, you know, Tim Ratliff couldn't possibly be the kind of person who takes drugs. He couldn't possibly be the kind of person who takes a nap because who would do such a thing?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

And yet it's just very important to so many of these people that they appear in the world in a very particular way. And that's, I would think, what gets in the way of your ability to tap into the collective unconscious if it's out there.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Would do, have done, not my preference, but I think it depends on the size of the pill.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

For me, it was much more him putting the pill on a hotel couch cushion and then putting it directly in his mouth. That was what stuck out to me about that sequence.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I'm Rob Mahoney.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

But it's not a good sign if you're taking slow motion showers as far as your overall state of mind.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I mean, only as an application post-pool or post-ocean. As like a general daily practice, I don't really see it for myself.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Yeah, I'm open to some windows, but I want a closed environment.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I mean, starting with Tim, I agree with you, Lazapam. Tim is a wonderful television invention. I enjoyed watching him go from basically fully clenched, mentally shredding his own brain with anxiety into absolutely blissed out slash napped out. That was just a great transition point for the show, and I can't wait to see where it goes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I'm a little worried we're getting into leaving Las Vegas territory with Tim, where it's like, He's seeing the end of the line. He's starting to make some pretty dramatic moves. He wants the phones in the bag. Well, he didn't want to be cut off from the outside world, but he certainly wanted everyone else to now that his little white collar secret has escaped containment, right?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

It's no longer him gathering information. It's people calling in. There's agents at the office. What the fuck is happening? Everyone is panicking. Everyone is freaking out. And I will say the most tragic offshoot of that to me is him taking Saxon aside and Saxon finally getting his sweet, sweet moment of daddy affirmation.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I'm doing great. I don't have any dreams of note to mark down as far as to parse their meaning. Do you have any dreams you want to pick apart today?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

And it is basically all so that he will shut up and put his phone in the bag. It's just it's a really tough look and a really tough moment for admittedly a contemptible character, but one who only wants one thing and it's daddy's approval.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

He wants a couple things. He wants a couple things. I want to step back.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Of course, metaphorically speaking. But one of our listeners, Bree, emailed in with an interesting thought that I had not considered, which is what if what exposed Tim Ratliff's crimes in the first place was something like Saxon's incompetence at work, right? What if Saxon, our guy who... He's very Vincent Adultman in the way he talks about his job. Like, I love work so much. I love job.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

I love being this guy. Doesn't seem to know what he is doing for a living. I would imagine is not very good at it. Would not surprise me one bit if an email sent to the wrong place by Saxon ended up resulting in this kind of investigation or ended up kind of moving some of the wheels in motion as far as how Tim ultimately got here.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Well, let me ask you this. Saxon brings up the very primal idea of having nightmares about fire and snakes. I can't say I've ever had a nightmare about fire and snakes. Are you a snake dreamer?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

And what's going to happen to her when she runs out, right? Once Tim has consumed, once he's popped every pill there is to pop. I worry about Victoria at this point.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Sober Victoria.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Which I would say is a critical part of why the show works the way it does. Like you can't just have the preachy person off to the side commenting on everyone. It's so much more interesting when those characters themselves can be co-opted, are susceptible to why everyone is here in the first place.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

Yeah, that was such an interesting sequence for her because she goes, you know, she is greeted by this very friendly monk with a MacBook. A monk book. She makes her appointment.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

And then just breezes on out. And like what my my understanding from her from both of these sequences, when she first goes to visit the temple and when she returns here and is like seems pretty deeply incurious, honestly.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

For somebody who wants to be potentially spending a year here in a program, furthering her education, deepening her spirituality, she makes her appointment and then she doesn't even bother to look around to talk to anyone else to even kind of take in the scene. It's like, oh, job done. I'm up out of here.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group

So she even kind of shoots a little glance to the tourists who are there, you know, in a way that's like a tiny little throwaway moment. But to me is very aloof and like, aha, like I am I am of this environment. Like I will soon be a member of this place.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Or you won't be liable for any of those things. Right. I think there's all of these corporate benefits to abusing your employees to an inch of their life and then them not remembering it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And that is one of the big questions raised by this episode. We see Gemma going through all of these very unique torture mechanisms effectively, right? Ways to create negative emotion in her.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

We already know, as you just said, that severance is strong enough to withstand the physical, emotional, psychic pain of childbirth. We know that it's effective on that level to the point that a new mom would have zero memory of the labor she just experienced. Mm-hmm. And so what are we doing here?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Like the limits already seem quite high, but I would say the incredible distinction within this episode is we have gone so far beyond innies and outies at this point. Like Gemma is going into each of these rooms with a distinct consciousness.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

If you say so, Jo. I don't know that that's going to happen today, but we're going to try.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

A distinct persona where the version of her that is going to the dentist just left the dentist. And the version of her that's going on the plane just left the plane. And they are just living in a loop of that exact thing over and over and over. And so Gemma's consciousness, unlike Mark or Dylan or Irving or anybody else, is fractured into who knows how many pieces.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Has not been inside. What do you think is in there, Jo? I don't know. Is it a room of puppies? What do you think is happening?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Well, real talk on that front. I think it's not hard, given the structure of the show, to draw a line between what is happening in these rooms and, say, the four tempers that we've been put right before us so often in Severance. And if that is the case, we're getting all negative emotions in this episode. We're getting the Christmas card thank you writing. We're getting the plane turbulence.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

We're getting the two-hour dental exam. We're not getting anything that looks a lot like frolic, I'll say that. And so I'm not ruling out the possibility that whatever's happening in Cold Harbor could be a positive emotion.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

No, I'm not feeling good about it. I'm just saying this is a thing that is possible. But if the end game of this sort of severance is shielding out negative feelings, there will be no need to sever out positive feelings. So it's probably still absolute shit, whatever is happening in there. But the absence of frolic is noted.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Certainly will.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

We have to.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I would love to. Even gem might be strong. I would say it's overall quite an uneven show. Patchy. Quite patchy Joss Whedon series that is about, not unlike Severance, the creation of a technology. Except in this case, it's a technology in which you can program a person.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And clients will hire the company that owns this technology to program these people, these dolls, into whatever they want them to be, whatever persona they want them to have. And so, yeah, Deshaun Lockman spends that whole series going episode to episode in wildly different personas, doing wildly different things.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Spoiler alert, many of the clients just want to have sex with these people with very specific kinks or very specific personalities or appearances. And so there's something certainly in my brain about watching Deetchan Lockman put on wigs, put on outfits, put on heels, go to room after room after room and be subjected to torture that certainly feels a lot like dollhouse to me.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

At exactly this thing.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Their ability to transmute into exactly what they need to be for over-year characterization.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Yes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

That would be my read on it. I think it's fair, if not entirely founded by the subtext of the show, to think that maybe she was straight up taken, right? That she did go not to execute a charade, but to go play charades. Like she was honestly going to her friend's house. And based on Maurer's appearance earlier, as you said, at the fertility clinic, like there was a scouting process

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And I'll say a lot of great theories, a lot of great Bardo discussion on this pod and the exciting debut of Joanna Robinson, NBA podcaster, which is something that I hold near and dear to my heart. So thank you for joining our space.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

like recruitment effort happening, the mailers, like there's something happening here that is, I'm sure, subconscious, right? That is them trying to influence her in some ways to do what it is they want. We don't exactly know yet, other than to be here and be a guinea pig.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And so this is the sort of big like A or B to me about this episode is did, was Gemma taken by Lumen or did she choose to leave and got more than she bargained for? I think it's much more likely to be that outcome.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I would say a couple of data points on that front. We do hear in some of the dialogue between Drummond and Maurer that Gemma has tried to break Maurer's fingers before. Like she has tried to escape her captivity before. So she did not sign up to be a guinea pig indefinitely.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Also, I don't know if we want to get into Russian literature corner this early. Oh, I do. But we simply must. And if we're going to talk about the death of Ivan Ilyich, a story about how maybe being dead isn't always just being dead, but living in a way that is untrue to yourself and unfulfilling in a way that makes you dead before you actually die.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

It's name-checked several times in this episode, specifically with Gemma, who is teaching Russian literature. And I don't know how to read that final exchange with Mark and the slow deterioration of their relationship other than a woman who is dying, even if she is not actually dead.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

It's a team effort. Look, the best podcasts are two-handers or three-handers, you know? Like, we're all working together in this.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And Rigabi gets one in this episode. What are, like, fourth different she is alive variation at this point?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

You know, I don't know. It's hard to say. I think one of the interesting images to reference on that is the thank you cards, which by the time we see her writing one is so illegible. Yes. Like not not does not look like understandable writing in any sense. And is that granted?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Because she has now written hundreds of thank you cards and her hand is cramped beyond like any kind of recognition in the thing she is writing. Or is there something going on with Gemma? more existentially, more spiritually? Is there something going on with the sub-severed brain that she's now working with where she is losing some of her fine motor skills?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

She's losing control of some of the, even the verbal elements that as an academic would come so easily to her.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Taking the Tolstoy elements and taking the Chakai Bardo specifically, really the idea of a Bardo, right? This not just transition stage, but one that involves the acceptance of death. I see that as a pretty clear indication of where Gemma is throughout this episode. And we cover a lot of time. We cover the nature of her entire relationship with Mark, basically front to back.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I'm sure there's plenty of things missing and we may get those gaps filled in over the course of future episodes. But this is someone who is coming to terms or has already come to terms in a way with the death of, if not who she is, then certainly her relationship and certainly the person she was with Mark.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Also, this is a little extra textural. So if you don't like kind of cast interviews, maybe skip ahead a little bit. Basically, everyone making this show has been incredibly emphatic to the point of insulting that this is not a clone situation. So maybe that's them all covering up for the thing that they know to be true. But at this point, I think it's much less likely.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

So deeply conflicted about those outcomes and also deeply conflicted about as we're going through what is happening in the mechanics of this show. And like, like, again, I would argue that Gemma is dead in a lot of senses. that she is not the person that she was, that she is going through a kind of spiritual and existential transition, if not a physical death in the way that Mark understands it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And Severance is so good at having it both ways. It's so good at making us ask a lot of these questions. And we kind of jumped straight into the mysteries of this week's episode and the substantial answers of this week's episode.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I don't want to zoom past the fact that not only is this the best episode of Severance, Jo, I think it is the best episode of any show that you and I have covered together. I just think this is masterful, astonishing, staggering work.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Like, Hall of Fame stuff in its own category, but active shows... It's definitely top five.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I think it's just... It's perfect in the way that is... This is the kind of story that can only be told with soft sci-fi, right? There are these incredibly human elements in there. There are these wonderful sci-fi constructions, including...

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Maybe most heartbreakingly, the fact that Gemma does stage this huge escape, finally gets her jailbreak moment, and turns into Miss Casey as soon as she gets out of the elevator, which is just an incredibly gutting turn of events. And then is returned to the floor without ever even seeing what's on the other side or knowing what happened.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I completely agree with that. Yeah, I don't want to overstate the death thing so much as I think that that's the experience Gemma was going through in the outside world as her relationship was falling apart, as she was dealing with the infertility. And then she gets to this hellscape and these torture rooms.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

episode seven so um there's perhaps a stale take or two uh in that interview that that does not hold up post uh episode seven but some big picture theory from one of the masters of the craft of these sorts of puzzle box shows on how to do it and what you should be looking for and kind of how how these strands are pulled together which holy hell joe a lot of strands being pulled together this week a lot of things happening this week on severance

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And our experience with this episode, I mean, we get answers to some of the biggest questions that Severance has been posing, including, what is Gemma alive, period?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I guess that's a question mark. Where is she? What has her existence been like? What was Mark and Gemma's life like before we met them, or at least met Mark over the course of the show? Yeah. It's answering all those questions while raising the emotional stakes in such a huge way.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And it's doing it in this really electric fashion that makes you reconsider basically everything we've seen in the show. I've been going back and just thinking about so many different scenes and so many different characters and so many different interactions, knowing what we know now.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And it just, it feels like, even though the show is exciting, even though we were thrilled to cover it every week, like, it has new life now after watching this episode.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Yes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Which, standing fucking ovation, genuinely. Like, incredible, incredible work, especially for, granted, a longtime director of photography, cinematographer, but first time directing credit on this show.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

This is where the two inner Robs are at battle. Because there is the inner Rob that loves... monochromatic design.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And I'm looking at that bookshelf. I'm like, there's something aesthetically pleasing about the order of this, but also soul crushing about the lack of life in it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And I think you're really onto something with that. Again, especially for someone who like their home is so bookish. It is so like riddled with plant life and sunlight and like the steepling is off the charts. Like there's just so much happening in those flashbacks from a filmmaking perspective and a setback perspective.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I am preconditioned to love a kaleidoscopic, bittersweet view of a relationship.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Rise and fall. Like that's just going to hit me. That's going to work for me basically every time.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I don't know that anyone wants to identify as being a Blue Valentine kind of guy, but perhaps I am. I think it's just executed at such a high level here to the point of transcending whatever you think about these sorts of montages. Joe, we have official dead dog wife territory here, which is something that usually you and I roll our eyes at.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

But here it is executed to such a beautiful and wonderful effect. I simply cannot.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Where's the ant farm in West Wing?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I would love to think that that's the case.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

On the litigation of whether this is an official dead dog wife montage or not, can it be if Jim is not dead?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

They can always find us at PrestigeTV at Spotify.com. But in particular, you can find us at PineappleBobbing at Gmail.com.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I gotta say, Jo, at this point, my Persephone's and my Eurydice's are getting crossed. There's so much hell imagery going on and so many different roles that Gemma is playing within this show to various characters and these kind of mythological archetypal constructs. My head is spinning.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Not a lot of Heli in this episode, obviously. Right. One thing I want to flag on pregnancy watch. Not our favorite subject. I don't know how Helly or Helena will be pregnant three days after having sex with both Marks. I don't know how any of this works. I don't know if that's where we're going to go. I was struck a little bit by Gemma's miscarriage.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And she's in the shower, sat on the floor, holding her legs in almost exactly the same position and fashion we saw Helly last week in the hall when she's removed her shoes and is kind of going through a crisis. And look, Severance loves a mirror. Severance loves recursion. Severance loves playing Gemma and Helly opposite each other, visually speaking.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I don't know what to make of any of that, but I think we got to throw it out there.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I mean, no Daniel Craig around to suck her fingers, but you know.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Maybe. I think it certainly could speak to the state of their relationship by the end. I want to say this. We get...

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

this incredible, not just montage sequence, but the scene spliced throughout the entire episode of them stage by stage from these two professors falling in love at the blood drive to their amazing, adorable house and this life that they're building together to this, like two prospective parents who are struggling with the process of that and trying to figure out how to be there for each other.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And then as people who are just deeply, deeply in pain and drifting apart so, so clearly, like right out from under each other's grasp. Yeah. And I think one of the things that I love about this episode is we get a very new understanding of Mark and who he was at the time when he was with Gemma.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Oh, you have it. No, I actually want to talk about that other woman. I have some revised thoughts, but let's get to that as we talk about the music later in this episode.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Again, we simply must. One of the most immediately contemptible characters in terms of just speed from introduction to hatred that I can remember seeing on TV.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Okay. I thought we won you over. But look, I support you living your truest life, even if it is one that's riddled with bacteria.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I'm going to claim victory on those not being dental tools because they are torture devices. He is not a dentist.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

He's just a guy jabbing her teeth.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

It's certainly really creepy. And when he sort of parrots back the I love you catch as she's trying to leave the Christmas card room, just...

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

It seems like it might be. Or they are able to in some way view or listen to or reconstruct some of Mark's memories based on his MDR work. I don't know exactly what's happening there. What is clear is he seems to be relishing playing house with her and the power that he wields over her. It's so disgusting. In a really like...

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Honestly, my whole body just recoils watching his scenes, which is an incredible performance, and I think is sold in part by the demeanor, is in part sold by, like, Robbie Benson's just, like, piercing eyes in his presentation in this episode. It's just a perfect affect for a creepy doctor you want to hate.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And the absolute rage that swelled up inside me when he is telling her the lie about Mark moving on in the outside world. And has a daughter. Yeah. I would like to think that I have seen enough TV and movies to not be so moved by something like that, but I felt so angry.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

We should say, I don't think we've noted yet, that was the Allentown room, which was the file that Mark completed in record time, just prior to season one.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

A surprising amount of music commentary happening.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

You want to believe that Mark is just so damaged he can't have a functional relationship with a normal person. But revisiting it, and especially through this lens, right? That is diegetic music that's being pumped into the restaurant for their date. As this woman is being very understanding, asking Mark to talk about his dead ex-wife on basically their first date.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And she's connected to the birthing retreat and maybe even connected to how Miss Cobell gets hooked up with Devin in the first place for the lactation consultancy, the fraudulent lactation consultancy.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

An epidemic in this country.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

It certainly feels like it. And I would say even more so in conjunction with another email we got, Joe, from Adeline, who pointed out that the music that's playing in the Chinese restaurant when Helen and Mark meet in the outside world is the same music that's being played during the egg bar social in season one within the severed floor. And so well-observed all around.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

A little less. I don't like a low microwave, like one that's built into an island or built into low cabinetry, per se. But if it's, say, a miniature convection oven and not a microwave, then I'm back on board.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

There's these big pointing arrows to the idea that Lumen is running so much more of the outside world than we even may have understood based on the long grasp of a company this big.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And now it really feels like that date and that whole conversation and everything that he's... Most of the people that he's been involved with outside are in some way prompting him to remember Gemma, think about Gemma. They are trying to keep the memory of her alive forever.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I advocate for other hobbies other than that, even if it involves a little light B&E.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Also, just from a word cloud perspective, Carousel is jumping out at me because it also appears in this Billie Holiday version of I'll Be Missing You. There's a lyric specifically about, sorry, I'll be seeing you.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

It's like listing out all of these places in which you would see someone that you're missing. In the cafe, in the park across the way, the children's carousel. And with that song too, I think it plays just so beautifully as Mark going through his version of grief and how he would see Gemma or how he would experience the loss of Gemma in his life.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Uncultured swine that we are. We did not realize the design significance of these mid-century modern grinders.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And also Gemma, whether she knows it or not, and I suspect not, reliving... these horrible torture scenarios, but also in Allentown specifically, something that is so specific to her, right? This idea that she hates writing these thank you notes. And so she is living a hell in his memory based on what he knows that she hates to do.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And how twisted that idea is for a big company like Lumen to wield that against somebody.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And doesn't have to do it. She's not going to remember anything about the way you look. And in fact, I would argue, for scientific purposes, might be more constructive if you didn't look different. You know, control one of the variables here.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I don't think so. I think it is canonically understood that her name is Gemma Scout.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

No, I don't. But I think if it was something of macro note, like if she was Gemma Egan, he would have already had a lot of reactions to her being an Egan because he knows Helena Egan.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I thought that this was one of my favorite parts about the overall flashback construction is how different all four of them are and how different definitely... Mark is laughing at Rickon's jokes. Like, that's how far we have come from the people that they used to be. I adored that sequence.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I think just striking that we, yeah, we never hear the word pregnant in this episode. We never hear the word miscarriage. We never hear the words fertility clinic. And yet it's all very clear what is happening because the filmmaking is that strong. Like you absolutely do not need to do that. And it's a testament to what Severance holds back in its execution.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Obviously, from a question and answer standpoint, it holds back quite a lot. But there are all of these little openings where because you're not explicating, you let emotion and you let character fill that moment.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I don't think I do.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Always, Jo.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I think that's definitely there. I also think there's the read where the severed floor itself is the river forgetting where she like she is going into the space where as soon as she gets there, she forgets who she is and becomes Miss Casey.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And the only way she's going to find her way out is presumably with someone like Mark's help. we're told in this episode Drummond kind of chides Mauer about the idea that when she does go into Cold Harbor, you're going to have to say goodbye to Gemma, right? So we know something dramatic is going to happen in there. I'm guessing, again, it's not the puppy room.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I know. Yeah, he's totally cool with it. I'm sure it's not going to be an issue.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

But yeah, to get out of here, she is probably going to have to pass through the severed floor as Miss Casey in some fashion. It doesn't seem like there's any other way out. And so in doing so, that feels very Eurydice to me. That feels very this idea of like, you have to be let out of this place.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And until the moment where you cross this threshold, you're like a shade version of your actual self until you can finally get clearance on the topside world.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I thought this episode was kind of Gemma's version of the season one Racing the Clock finale, where all the members of the MDR team have these, like, critical missions about their own, like, individual selves and are trying to solve them as fast as possible. And she gets this, like, absolute race to the elevator in a way that I think also mirrors, you know, this season opens...

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

with Mark racing around these white, bright hallways looking for Miss Casey and ends with Gemma racing around these dark, terrifying hallways trying to get to the elevator to get out.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I see them as refiner refiners. They're here just overseeing it all. Just really trying to get these guys to be their best possible selves.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

One takeaway from that, in addition to the doppelganger-y element, which is just goofy and creepy and wonderful, I feel like we learned that maybe the severed floor itself is not as surveilled as we might have thought. Because as they are trying to figure out why Mark's progress on Cold Harbor has stalled, Drummond's explanation is, oh, that nosebleed really put us back.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And not, oh, the fact that Mark and Hallie are refining each other's data really put us back this week. They don't know everything that's going on, but they do know that Mark went to Miss Wong for a nosebleed.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

It seems that way.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Only Russian novellas, I'm sorry.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

They've been so good for Severance in particular.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And what a ring reverse recommends from you, Joe. Just smuggling a whole ass segment into this podcast.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Seems entirely possible. And we have yet to see so many of the functions of the severance chip, including the blank slate, which just kind of looms over all of this. It feels like Irving could be the kind of guy whose innie has been blank slated several times, even maybe with his knowledge. It may have even been the kind of thing where they informed him of what was happening.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And that maybe contributed to him wanting to investigate the company. But he's been around for so long.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Could we even be so lucky?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Only, I guess, big picture, small picture.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Let's start small. On the most granular possible level. Okay. During some of these very flashy, very athletic, as our friend Amanda Dobbins would say, bits of filmmaking in this episode.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

A camera moving down the dark hallways, kind of like almost stop motion-y effect. I'm wondering if this is coming from that kind of hand cranked camera situation. We get a lot of random like one frame insert shots of bits and pieces of Mark and Gemma lore. I did my best to scrub and to see what these shots are.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

We see a split second of Mark's hands from season one as he's sculpting the tree that Gemma crashed into very quickly. One of our earliest reminders in the show of the kind of fragments of memory that might be seeping through for someone like Mark. We see Mark standing outside near some woods at night, which he does in season one when he revisits the place where he thinks Gemma has died.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And also kind of the bend in the road. We see a flash of that as well. You see a man... You can't see his face just reaching out and putting, it looks like his hand on someone else's chest or someone else's shoulder. Not unlike the other Lumen ideographic cards that we've seen. It's not quite one-to-one, but maybe reminiscent.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

You get just kind of like a general icy road. You get the headlights through the woods at night. You get the snowy road from a first-person perspective, as if someone were driving down it. You get a sort of soft table lamp, a red flower, which, look, if that's not Belle and Beast coded, I don't know what is. Yeah. And just some associated shots of Gemma along the way.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

A lot of it seems like things we've already seen and things they've already shot. But I'm curious if any of those will take on newfound significance as we go.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I think I just want to underscore again that this episode turned me into a complete mess. It was really emotional in a way that I wasn't expecting. And honestly, I was kind of wondering if Severance would be capable of. This is a process in a show I find very intellectually stimulating. You and I banding about these theories. I love the sci-fi concepts. I love the execution and the filmmaking.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I wouldn't say this is a show I felt like a really strong emotional pull to. And in one episode... all of a sudden, like, my whole emotional relationship to this show has been turned upside down. And overall, seeing the arc and the painful incremental way that Mark and Gemma came together and came apart, it just really had an effect on me. And I can't salute this episode enough.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

This is the kind of thing to segue into our interview that The Leftovers had in spades, especially by the end, but starting with season two in particular, and that I was just like wanting Severance to hit that other gear. And Joe, we are here.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Well, especially, I mean, we already understand the broadest strokes of why Milchik reacts the way he does to being gifted the paintings of Kier, the racially adjusted paintings. But if you are someone who has gone to such incredible lengths to make yourself corporate friendly... All of this code switching he does, all of this flourishing language that he incorporates.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And then when you try to do that to be slapped on the hand for doing it, it's understandable why he would feel as if LeRug has been pulled out from him in that moment. Because he's a guy who's doing all the right things in a corporate sense and checking all the boxes that they want him to check. And yet he still ends up in this place.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I was extremely jealous to miss this chat, I gotta say. I mean... It's heartbreaking stuff for me.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

The next time a show breaks our brains open with its mystery box elements, you know, we'll circle back.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Always.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I guess which part, because there's a lot to there's a lot to dissect. And I think depending on how you take apart the various elements of this show, the texture of the decisions and the reveals can change pretty dramatically. So how how big picture do you want to go here?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Yes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I think it is a combination of the two. Okay.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Without a doubt.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I thought you were going to say my concept of death, which that was going to be a much bigger conversation, but it's also not that.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

The Bardo is very interesting in the context of this episode. I think, in a manner of speaking, when we do get it referenced by name, Chakai Bardo, it is Gemma looking at these Lumen ideographic cards.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And that's her interpretation of it. And as she's saying that, she's also describing the exercises she's doing as a sort of like, is this a duck or is this a rabbit perception test?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

So the fact that she sees that card and sees a Bardo, sees a trial, sees a transition into a state of death, sees a manner of acceptance, I think that tells me more about anything else. Like she, based on where she is at that point in the story and everything that she is going through, she is interpreting that card specifically as that sort of transition into death.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Boy, do I. Okay, great.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

So you may remember this card as the one that Dylan G. pocketed at work in season one when the MDR team was visiting OND. And Milchick has to jar him awake off the clock to find out the location of that card. And if you don't remember what it looks like, it's roughly a guy doing like a warrior two yoga pose, standing opposite another man, like hand to his chest effectively.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

And yeah, Gemma has interpreted this as... some kind of ego death as a person fighting within themselves or combating themselves. Very interesting to revisit that episode in retrospect, the one in which Dylan takes that card. Milchick's response, not unlike in this episode, very panicked. High stakes for a guy who took a card out of a department who doesn't have any idea what it is and

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

His quote from that episode is, Dylan, listen, you have no idea how sensitive this information is. If someone paid you to smuggle out that card, dot, dot, dot, and then Dylan interrupts him. I think we're getting a sense of how important these kinds of cards might be.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

Just got it in the mail.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

We kind of talked about some of these things in a way that is disconcerting.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

But guess what? What if you did it and then sold it to people? Wouldn't that be valuable?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof

I'm Rob Mahoney.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Miss Wong.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Possible.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Possible.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I think it's possible. I would say the fact that she was also given the paintings suggests that, I mean, she's clearly being othered in a way that's similar to Belchick for sure. I'm going to say no, just because I, frankly, I don't want too many secret Egan's on the board. And so if I'm already putting one or two up there, I don't want Natalie to be one as well.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I hope so. I really hope so.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Random. Was he an Italian guy? What was the other guy? Okay, thank you.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

That was a hatecraft Italy, I apologize. It's all right. You know, James has been abroad, you know, like he is a busy man. He's a man about town.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Again, I think he's capable of anything.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Basically, yes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

This was the, like, I'm throwing my badge and gun on the table and storming out of the office speech.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

So, yeah, it felt like he was quitting, even though obviously he is not. And I think the nature of this...

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

interaction overall and milchick kind of asserting some of his authority and asserting some of what actually is his jurisdiction i think sets up pretty effectively the stuff with mark on the phone in the subsequent scenes like that that almost doesn't happen if he's feeling desperate and under the gun and like drum it is all like on his back trying to get mark to come back in to finish cold harbor asap and so like the idea of giving mark the day i think is dependent on this exchange happening

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

That said, Joe, I will say this exchange felt very mixed to me and some of it very, very flat. The monosyllabically situation, I enjoyed. Him rightly pointing out, not my job, not my circus, not my monkeys out in the outside world. Devour of feculence, way too cute.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Bitch.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

One more for the road. If someone who does have access to clips and can put them together in a supercut in a way that we no longer can, can put together every time someone this season has said some variation of She's Alive, I would love to see it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Oh, the slow-mo is so good.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Definitely.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Miss Wong's departure here or sort of the role if we don't see her again this season or at all the role she played this season I'm a little confounded by the character and some of that is like was she just here to add to the weirdness of the dynamic and to kind of sop up mystery as we're going along and trying to figure out who she is and what role she plays obviously there is the element of taking this idea of child labor which is so critical to the Lumen identity and transposing it into an office setting and calling it a fellowship and

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

All good. All good here. No problems whatsoever.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Classic rebranding. I appreciate the PR work.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

At the end of the day, I still have so many questions about Miss Wong. I hope this is not the end of her story. Like if the end of her arc is her as a little girl with her earmuffs waiting for the bus, like I understand what we're doing there, but it feels like kind of a missed opportunity given her presence throughout this season and given like how fascinating that character could be.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

And so I am still waiting for something with Miss Wong. And I hope this show continues to pay off her presence in the story. I'm just a little worried that she might be out of here.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Eight years.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Yeah. I want to say Northwestern. I saw a clip of her like a little meet and greet clip at Northwestern. What a delight. Yeah.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Always at pineapplebobbing at gmail.com. And of course, at prestigetv at spotify.com. If you're, I guess, less fun or you just don't feel like bobbing today.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I think it was.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

What a rec letter to get Britt Lauer.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I think putting us inside that process of a child being indoctrinated, being brought up in the system in the way that Harmony was, for example, different timeline, but similar circumstances, that is helpful to have.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Yeah. Like a little bit? I would certainly hope. I just think overall this season, what I'm coming to, and maybe I'll feel differently on the other side of the finale... A lot of the backstage stuff we've gotten as to the operations at Lumen HQ, the Milchick storylines, I thought initially led with so much promise and so much like potential emotionality and ultimately kind of fizzled out for me.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

The Miss Wong stuff, similarly, like I was so eager to get to know this character and understand her more out of the gate. this is where we end up potentially with that character. Like I, I just feel a little disappointed. For example, if, if Milchick story this season is coming into his own by returning to the similar flowery language that he prefers, then,

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Yes, please do. We're going to need them. We're going to take questions live from the chat, of course, but we got to get some fodder to get started. So please send us in theories, ideas. I think just kind of general questions about the world of the show. It doesn't have to be guessing at the end game. Let's have fun with the goats among us.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I just feel like Drummond as word police is such a goofy place for this plot line to end up. And I think that's what undercuts some of the power in... Tramell Tillman's given an amazing performance. The best. And I think ultimately delivers some... Absolutely phenomenal phone acting with Mark as he's sort of navigating the aftermath of these conversations.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I just think it's a it's a weird exchange and it's a weird place for this character. And who knows where it will end up. But so far, I'm having a little trouble with the with the milkshake stuff overall.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

That may be nice.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Everybody's talking about Berving. Everybody's talking about Berving.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

And I really appreciate you. I have to go to a really deep and dark place in my soul to channel Billy. But you got there. I appreciate it, though. Thank you, Joe.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Oh, that didn't work for you.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

You thought I was talking about a cast member. I assumed.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

They smuggled in dollars price into this show?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

A goon.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I mean, The Pit is pulling the heartstrings. They're really going for it hard.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

It takes a bit. I think for me, it really takes more than just a moment. It needs to be sort of the culmination of a storyline, right? You take me on a journey, and that payoff is really going to hit hard by the end.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

So yeah, I'm not getting there with this, and I think that speaks to maybe some of the way the Berving stuff is handled in general, which is a little chopped up, a little bits and pieces, a little disparate, a little... There's like an emotional distance within so much of Severance, right? These are characters who are trying to reconcile different parts of themselves. And so I feel the distance.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I just think in this case, I also am such a sucker for the looping and the callback and the reference and overall the way that they are trying to close that. Like these two characters who are so desperate for connection trying to close that distance together.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Well, he gives him the I can't first or we can't.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I did not love Bon Voyage, buddy.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I don't think it is a devastating moment. I think it is somewhat of a bittersweet thing. And that, look, that is my zone as far as this kind of content goes. Like, that's exactly what I am looking for. And so I think part of it is... these characters are not going to have that sort of emotionality. These are two people who, in their respective ways, are quite repressed, right?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Like Irving, as he explains, has never experienced this kind of love or any kind of love like it before. And so he is desperate to hold on to it so tightly. And I think the whole idea of what does it feel like to be loved with an action like this is such a poignant idea. And I really love... I really... I really gravitated towards that as much as anything.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

And then, you know, Bert in his way is not repressed because he's in an openly gay relationship. He has a partner. He has a different kind of life. But he's like this sort of relationship is one that I just found myself wondering so many times with them, as we have with many of the character interactions throughout the show. Yeah. Is Bert feeling some echo of what his any self felt?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Or is he merely trying to honor the love that he knows existed between him and the inner version of Irving?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

That brings four heads together, apparently. Yeah.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I think what sealed it for me ultimately was, yes, some of the echoes in that exchange. And we even get like the same sort of ponder some music cues that are from that sort of garden scene in season one here in the train station. Like we are bringing everything full circle for these characters. But once Irving gets on the train.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I'm a little take barren at the moment, but something about these Severance pods in particular, Jo, just brings out the life in us, I think. Something about the cold, desolate wilderness of seeing Keir proper, of seeing a Helena in a nice plunge pool. I just think there's something about this episode that's really going to keep us alive.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

And the sort of smile that Turturro is playing there, I think is part of what brings it home for me. And this idea that sometimes you do have to let people go. Sometimes you do have to get on the train. Sometimes you, this is what a relationship is meant to be, to be a thing in your life that is not meant to last.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I love that landing point for these characters because they can't like there is not a plausible way for them to have a happy ending as as harmony laid out for everyone else. It's just not in the cards. And so put him on the train. Bring radar. Good boy.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

And I like this send off. I will say. Yeah. Is there a nonzero chance this is the last we see of John Turturro on the show?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Should for sure.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

That makes sense.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

As would I. And I hate that you have to write yourself into those corners, but just, yeah, from a cast perspective, I could see John Turturro being like, yeah, I had fun. We did it. I'm on to the next thing. He's a working actor who's in lots of stuff.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Exteriors only for John Totoro from here on out.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Yes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Easily with Irving.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Shiv and Tom had Mondale in like a little playpen despite their massive flat.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Those are not good dog owners. No. You could tell it from every aspect of their personality.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

A proper Mickey 17 throuple in action.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I don't like it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

You think so?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I feel like that's short changing Audi Dylan's anxieties quite a bit. I think there is... Obviously, look, I love that as we are getting this more complicated love triangle, quadrangle geometry happening, we have all of these different aspects of the emotional fallout.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I think Irving's version of that is not even experiencing the love, at least Audi Irving, not experiencing it, but feeling the pain of losing it. That's such a weird kind of sci-fi idea that I think not a lot of genres can tackle in the way that Severance can tackle. Yeah. Helly's pain, as she's confronted by Dylan in this episode, is this idea that the other version... No, Helly's.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

She and Dylan have the debrief where he confronts her with the idea that Mark couldn't even tell the difference between you and Helena. This idea that your romantic partner wouldn't know you well enough to separate you from your other self. And then I think for Dylan, it's that Gretchen can tell a difference, but... but she likes the other guy better.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Like she, she likes the other version of you better.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Yeah. I mean the whole, the whole conversation with her and Audi Dylan, when she was, he, he kind of braces her and preempts like, Oh, are you going to say it didn't mean anything? And Gretchen's responsive. I wasn't going to say that. Like it clearly meant a lot to her.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

The general rule is if it's a one-use implement, you don't need it in your kitchen. And it seems like all this thing does is dice a boiled egg into six identical pieces, which you don't need anything to do.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Here's my... She's going back to him for a reason, right?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I love everything that's happening between them. I just don't see it. I think Audi Dylan might have been through too much. I totally agree with you that from Gretchen's perspective, she is seeing a version of the person that she loves. From Dylan's perspective... He's saying you cheated on me with this other version of me.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

And look, maybe that's the strongest case yet for any personhood is that to Dylan, any Dylan is a different person from him. To him, this is adultery. To him, his wife has betrayed him. I think that's where it's hard to reconcile some of the differences between are these different people? Are they different versions of the same people?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Yes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Is any Dylan a less jaded, more naive version of Audi Dylan like we've been talking about all season? I think all of that is kind of true.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I mean, you can... That one I think you have to have, for one. Essential to your kitchen. Also juices multiple kinds of citrus, for the record.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Which version of Dylan? Everyone. I think honestly, I think that's such a huge part of what makes this sort of setup so fascinating is that any and Audi Dylan can never have a conversation, right? He could get reintegrated. He could become one more complete Dylan, but he's never going to know.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

And so his idea of what the any version of himself is, is always going to be even worse and even more intimidating and even more painful than the reality.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

You want to bust out that retro camcorder? Yeah. Send some tapes back and forth?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I mean, did that go well?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

The ring is quite elegant, I got to say.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Do the Indies know who Taylor Swift is?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I guess what, what transcends like pop culture knowledge and transfers into knowledge of the world? Cause I would argue knowledge of Taylor Swift is less like, are you familiar with this band? And more like, are you familiar with this cultural event?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I think it's allowed.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Cut your apples. Or eat the apple. You don't need a corer.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I'm not 100% sure on this because I feel like when we cut back to the plate, I think it's a great call. And I love if this is true. When we cut back to the plate, it's a little obscured by the angle, but it looks like some of the yolks are also gone. So I'm not 100% sure that she's an outie only. That's it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

If you were in any only, if you're making boiled eggs and only eating straight yolks, I'm concerned.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

It's because of the y'all hybrid, you know, it's just the hard Y sounds really bring it out of me.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I'm really scared of what that looks like for him to eat the raw egg.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I mean, but look, is there something so wrong about a proud, supportive father who just wants to watch his daughter eat raw eggs? Is that so wrong, Joe?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Everything about this was horrible. Jesus Christ, Jamie.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

And honestly, look, the whole I really enjoyed.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

No one say that again in the history of the world. No one say it again. Also, if you are sitting across the room and watching your daughter eat boiled eggs, do not softly moan to yourself. Don't do it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

No moaning at the breakfast table.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I think we can all agree upon that.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Oh, this dude's a straight blood bag, Joe. Like, he's being pumped full of nutrients. He is not consuming food of any kind. I don't know.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Something is keeping him alive and it's not eggs.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Also, am I just like unwashed swine that I feel like she is being overly delicate with this egg white? Like she's cutting it into the smallest possible piece. You can just eat the one sixth piece of egg white in a bite. That is a reasonable sized bite.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

You can. I will say I once in a different life, Joe, played middle school football. My middle school football coach would come into the locker room and eat an entire hard-boiled egg, not in bite, just pop the whole thing in his mouth and then mash it while talking to people. It was horrendous.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

They're spraying all over the place. It was terrible.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Do you take it? Is Cold Harbor to him a breakthrough that will lead to something? Or are we supposed to interpret that like his revolving is supposed to happen today?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

She makes it sound straight up actually dead.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

The plausible deniability of this show. Really tremendous.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Pass on.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I mean, it's better than every other thing he said in this episode.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I didn't even take it that way necessarily. I interpreted this as he was promised two things. One,

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

mr bailiff was going to be dealt with in this episode i don't know that he knows what happened with irving as if yes i'm going to say it's not related to that per se the other thing was he was basically assured today is the day today is the day that cold harbor will be completed and it's very clear we are stuck at that 96 joe not has not budged all day long no and so i saw it as him coming in it's you know 6 30 p.m he rolls into the office he's like what the fuck we did not come we did not deliver on our deliverables

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I do know that... See, I thought you could put yourself squarely in Jame Egan's mind and just channel and understand everything that that blood bag is going through.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I echo her what the fuck on Jane reaching the severed floor. Seeing him down there is a thrill. I think because especially we are seeing so many of our core four splintering off in these different directions. We don't know if Dylan will ever be back there. We don't know if Irving will ever be back there. Mark is in the process of reintegrating and doing whatever it is that he's going to do.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Holy shit.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Having Helly is kind of the one person holding down the fort. You need something for her to bounce off of. And I think James showing up is a pretty interesting variable and a pretty interesting curveball on what otherwise is quite a small cast of a show.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Yeah. I'll also say about her conversation with Dylan, where she is encouraging him to save the ring. See who else you can meet down here in O&D with the goat people. Not the goat people.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

No?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I feel like you're being very judgmental. I feel like there's at least a couple of those goat people who might be open to it. You hated the goat people.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I hope we never go back to Mammalian's new triple.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

But that's not to say Dylan couldn't go back there in his free time. And I support whatever decisions that that character wants to make. But it did feel like exactly the kind of thing where she's giving advice to... to herself in a kind of way, not to seek someone else out, but she's telling him specifically, that woman is not your wife.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

And she almost could not be talking more directly to herself vis-a-vis Mark and Gemma, right? This idea that you are a different person. I need you to be a different person who is not that woman's husband.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Clearly.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

What are we doing here? Marks. What are we doing?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Okay.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I already know where you're going. These are both so good.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Although honorable mention to Devin for the, am I me or am I a copy machine? I also very much enjoyed that bit.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

What are they doing for hours and hours and hours?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I think part of what makes that snag too is, and this is a problem I would say with mystery box storytelling overall, where the show doesn't want to show its hand as to, for example, why do we need any Mark? Like what information does he have that Cobell doesn't have that would be instrumental in finding Gemma? Like she knows so much more than Mark does.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

She doesn't know what's been going on for like the past week at Lumen, but that's about it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

She has a lot more information.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

So much more. And so as a result of that, like normally in order to set the stakes of the show, you have to give us some indication of what it is that we actually need out of these interactions. And I don't think we have that. I think we just have characters saying we have to do this. We have to do why we Devin says in this episode, we have no choice but to do what Cobell says.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I would argue of many, many, many other choices that you could make.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Oh, easily. Yeah.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I think you're seeing some of the after effects of an episode like that where we talked about the sort of storytelling momentum in taking this huge diversion into Cobell's storyline. And you need that if you're going to reintroduce Cobell in the story in some way. If you're going to bring her back with Mark and Devin and loop her back into the action, you need to know what she's been up to. Right.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

But like they did not.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

pushing my patience slightly I think I think that's entirely fair I think they have stretched this stuff out to a degree where we've gotten a decent amount of mark screen time but not a lot of mark propulsion or progress or even emotionally speaking I'm not saying it has to be reintegration I think episode 7 is the high watermark for that not just for Gemma but also for Mark in terms of getting his elements of the backstory like that added to the character in a really significant way

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

it feels like there's so many balls in the air this season that a lot of the payoffs have nothing to do with what's happening this year, right? Like the, the Bervin stuff is a great example. The reason that the, that Bervin kind of like farewell moment works to the extent that it does for anyone. And as you said, Joe, for you, it was a little bit more mixed. It all hinges on season one.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

It does not pay off. And like everything that happened between Bert and Irving in season two was misdirection, was taking them down a side path, was setting up Bert as a potentially nefarious figure, which he kind of is.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

but ultimately did not really contribute to the plot or the or the emotionality of these characters in any meaningful way and i think you could say the same thing about a lot of what's going on with mark where there's a lot of him tripping out post reintegration him collapsing into the floor him seeming to regain consciousness and in a way where i i just thought there would be a little bit more bleeding over at this point but the very fact that we have to go to the birthing cabin to advance the plot tells us that this is not a reintegrated character this is a guy with a

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

hole in the back of his head that's oozing that for some reason we throw in the back of a pickup truck that's a bad choice for a guy with a hole in his head do not do that either

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Of course not.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

But that also means you have to do a lot of just kind of moving the chains on the other characters to get them now in place for the finale. And so I will say I did feel a lot of that, a lot of kind of positioning the pieces on the board. I also thought that we just had some breathtaking emotional moments in this episode. And so that to me is a fair enough balance for a penultimate endeavor.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Or get a different car. Do whatever you have to do. I feel like putting him in a bumpy... There was no room in the rabbit, I'll tell you that much right now.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

But how are you going to project how ominous it is if you don't say it at that speed?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I think just one thing as we we're kind of closing the loop here from the secret Egan's into harmony, getting them into the birthing retreat, which is we get an email a couple weeks ago from Elise who talked about how every adult woman on the show so far has been in some way connected to the idea of birth or rebirth.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

And I think Elise brought it up in the context of the great pregnancy debates that we've been having all season about. Is Helena going to be pregnant? What is the situation with Gemma and her ongoing fertility?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

All of this stuff has been in the air, but it's also in the air with Harmony, too, who is not only the mother of Severance, as we found out, but if she does end up being Helena's mother or the mother of an Egan child of some kind who met some end, I think that would make sense thematically with a lot of what we've been dealing with.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I did have a listen to this.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

What is this existential dread I feel?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Wonderful.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Thank you, Joe. Thank you to Eggs. Thank you to James Egan.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I'm Rob Mahoney.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Yes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Even the delivery. Just cold. Okay.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

harbor it's like this is not human interaction i know harmony cobell is on her own wavelength on her own planet in a lot of senses but this is just not how any of this part of the story would go i think overall the mark and harmony stuff continues to mystify me as far as why that is being executed in the way it is and we can get into it as we get into that part of the story but i have no answers as to why

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

That's how you know he's a podcaster now.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

almost any of that is happening other than it needs to happen to get the story where it needs to go. And that's not really satisfactory to me.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Okay.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Is it the dozens of cure babies?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

would you say that in the opening credits it is v because it's a lot of like mark yankin the other version of himself around pulling him through various holes and orifices and it's it's it's not what you want it's not what you want to see come out of a human head but i but i always interpreted a little bit more as mark helping mark not necessarily like helping repositioning maybe saving in some instances maybe whipping about but not necessarily being in direct conflict if you know what i mean

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I mean, despite all of the Mark and Harmony and Devin plans, Hallie's the person who's actually closest to getting to the testing floor to the extent that when she goes down there, she will still be Hallie, which we don't really know.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I'm so glad that there's just an endless variety of shows we can apply secret baby logic to.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Oh, of course. So say we all, Jo.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Yes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I think it was a news report. It was like a TV news report where Natalie had to explain how it happened on like CNN effectively.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

Number one, Rickon. Rickon's on my list. By far the funniest secret Egan possibility. I really hope Rickon isn't Egan.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

But with payoffs.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I think no and yes is what we're being positioned for. Her showing up at the birthing site knowing just what to say sounded a lot to me like she's been on the other side of that situation before where she was the one being smuggled in, perhaps. Yeah.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

So not an actual Egan herself, but perhaps the mother of an Egan.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

I think if Harmony is, in fact, the mother of an Egan, it would almost have to be Helena, just based on the characters on the board. Unless it's like, oh, there was a mystery baby that is...

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

since dead or out of the story for some reason like the narrative knots i think would start to tie themselves if it's someone we don't know and so yeah if there's if there's going to be a connection it would be to helena which i don't love to be honest with you me neither uh mark or devon no i don't think so i agree okay uh drummond yes but like extended family i think he's more of a cousin or something

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?

You may have heard.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I mean, first of all, Wade Messer would be huffing ether. So... We're just moving one step over, but a dramatically different characterization. I think the sort of down-on-their-luck Kentuckian addicts and degenerates of Justified and the criminal elements of Justified are so different from the people we see in Salt's Neck who are worn down in this decrepit, dying industry town.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

And to have Hampton step into that as somebody who clearly is trying to just soldier on and at the same time huffing ether every chance he can get, maintaining this sort of habitual thing that he's had since he was presumably a kid. And the way that Harmony has that element with him, where, as you said, the unscripted kiss comes after

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

judgment really on her part i'm like how can you how can you do this how can you sell this stuff after everything that we went through right producing it in the middle in the first place the life that we've lived like how can you participate in this thing that that like wrecked our lives and wrecked this town and he's simultaneously somebody who can have lived through all of that and still be huffing the ether and i 100 believe it from lagrosse performance and i also believe that he's the guy who would stand up at the end of the episode

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

But tough for us that, I wish we would get a lot more of him. I don't see how, because he's going to be in Salt's Neck and he just gave away his truck.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Oh, anytime.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I think that, one, we knew that her mother was not a believer in the Cure cult. And I think we're kind of led along through this episode to think that Sissy is sort of her entry point into that world. And where she is working in the ether mill from a young age, she is put into this pipeline with the School for Girls and eventually the Wintertide Fellowship.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

And we're seeing kind of all these elements of her backstory tied together. And then, of course, this idea that she, in fact, is the one who invented the severance procedure or at least like designed it, designed the schematics that became what we know as severance.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Uh, Does that dramatically change the way I think about Miss Cobell? I don't know. I think the fact that she grew up huffing ether fumes changes the way I think about her a little bit. And the idea of like, why is she as off kilter as she is? Why is why is her language presented the way it is?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

And when you hear Sissy speak, I think you get a pretty good idea of how being a member of a cult can sort of infiltrate your brain and shape you on the most like formative verbal levels. But to be honest, I was having a hard time sort of wrestling with the idea of the reveal of this episode and how much I thought it really changed because it felt like a swerve.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

It felt like the kind of thing where I wanted to go back and revisit as we're going to do today.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

And then we got an email from a listener, Carrie, who... Put it in terms that I hadn't quite thought about yet, which is that we had been kind of thinking about severance as a purely capitalistic idea, right? Lumen creates this thing so they can eventually sell it or, you know, take advantage of their workers or create a whole new workforce or whatever it ends up being.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

And Kerry proposed the idea that, like, if Harmony was creating it as a means to basically escape... the abuse that she had suffered as a child, right?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Someone who had been in this system, who had been treated very cruelly, who had now had her idea stolen from her, that seeing that idea now used for purely capitalistic reasons, probably, and used to hurt so many other people would be such a, like a re-traumatizing event for Harmony over and over again.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

We certainly are.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Yeah, it does seem, given the ether-heavy context in this episode, that Lumen's goal is to give you kind of the spoonful of sugar one way or another. And that's going to take many forms. I'm sure it's had many forms in between ether and severance.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

But that, more than anything, after what we saw from Gemma last week and how it's kind of articulated in this episode, feels like what the goal of severance is, is to save, quote-unquote, save you from the pain and the anxiety of all these things while subjecting a different version of yourself to exactly those things.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

There's plenty of freeze-framing to be done in this episode.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Very trauma-heavy slate on the pit, I got to say.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Can we bid?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Don't like it. And I will say, you know, last week at the tail end of the episode, we hear from Rigabi when she's kind of talking to Devin about the idea of calling Cobel, that she was raised by Lumen. Raised by Lumen. And I think we had that understanding with the school, with the Myrtle Egan School for Girls, that like clearly she's been brought up in this way of life.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

She seemed like a true believer, as you said, until the leopard ate her face. But this... I think changes how we think about that idea of what it means to be raised by a Lumen, specifically with the way she's sort of grieving her mom, which I don't know how you took it, Joe.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I read as much grieving the mom she didn't really get to have because she's presumably going off to some sort of boarding school. She's being raised within this cult. Her mom is not a believer. I can't imagine she approved exactly of what was happening and kind of the way that Harmony's life was taking shape.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

You're telling me huffing a bunch of chemicals isn't good for you?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

And a town that is now, at this point, just sort of aging into death, right? Everyone we see is very gray-bearded, white-haired. Like, this is a town where, to the extent that there were young people here, they have been abused and left, right? Like, they were child workers, and now they've either grown into damaged adults or they've fled as the town has further decayed.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

And this is an idea that has been proposed within the world of Severance, certainly within the world of the innies, as a very dignified thing, working in the ether mill, right? This idea that Keir and his wife met working at the ether mill. And we saw the painting of that in season one. Yeah. A formative birthing moment as they got to kind of gaze upon the ether vat together.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I have to say, what shook me most about this episode was the way Patricia Arquette, who, look, her pronunciations can be all over the board, pronounced, wait, Imogen?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Which shook me to my core that I may have been pronouncing Imogen Heap's name wrong all these years, but it turns out not.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

But it is more commonly Imogen. Well, shout out to all the Imogens and Imogens out there.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Which gives her some grace for the fact that I wouldn't say she's particularly great at it yet. She's a little bit of like D'Onofrio in Men in Black, like alien bugs in the skin suit sometimes.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

It is that way. But clearly she's learning how to be a person. And she's learning everything that comes with that. All the pains that come with that. The kind of ego and the feeling of being wronged by Lumen that she's striving for simultaneously. She's dealing with a lot.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I would love nothing more.

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‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Close enough to me.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I mean, yeah, I don't believe that a dude jerked off on a tree and died. Or sorry, jerked off on the ground and became a tree. I want to get my facts straight.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Get the lore right. I want to get the lore correct. Yeah, that seems very possible to me.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Have you partaken, Jo? Is that a recreational activity of choice for you?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Well, and I guess your Aether self, as people kind of put it in the Orpo episode, as we were talking about Dieter and who he was and why he was a secret and this idea of the shadow self... I mean, what is a severed self but an ethered self, right? It's like this sort of mirrored version of you that has no cares in the world that, as Hampton is, is sort of like cackle crying as you get high.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

The effects are quite immediate and quite severe and clearly lead to some light to medium smooching on a bed that may have been where your mother died.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

They were not. That room was moth-eaten to hell. No one has been in there.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

It doesn't seem pleasant, I gotta say. Whippets, paint thinner, ether. I'm out, I think.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

and wiles yes can we take a quick segue into please uh sissy's shrine corner is this where freeze frame mahoney comes to comes to play you gotta do it you gotta zoom in you gotta see what's going on here we've already seen harmony shrine in her own in her own place and i will say there's a lot of familiarity here a lot of familiar artifacts a lot of crossover you see the same portrait of kier understandably the same sort of like paper mache heads of the four tempers

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Same old timey ad for severance, which has like an ask your supervisor if severance is right for you tag on the bottom that makes me laugh every time I see it. Various newspaper clippings, a note card about probity, which, as you said, is one of the nine core principles. All that stuff we've seen before.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

There's some new stuff, though, including as we see a plaque as Harmony walks down the hall, alluding to the fact that Sissy was sort of like a matron, presumably for these child workers. I'm going to take that as kind of what her role was. And you see some lumen ether patches next to her shrine. And they have, one of them has an eye on it. One of them has a full set of teeth on it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

One of them has what appears to be a man running. I'm going to take those as the eye for vision, the teeth for cheer, the running for nimbleness as sort of like a merit badge sort of system in terms of what Sissy, you know, some commendations for her work as a matron.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I appreciate that. There's also a card with an image of a child with some adults that says, quote, you must be cut to heal, which sounds a little creepy in retrospect. Don't love it. Tough. Don't love anything that I'm seeing there. And I will say the things that Harmony had in her shrine that Sissy doesn't are a lot more childish things.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

It's like the awards that she won from school, the most observant, the best use of mealtime condiments, her best girl trophy. I think there was a plush goat in there. And so Sissy's is a little bit different. Some different artifacts, some different items, and clearly no breathing tube because Harmony had it in the first place. And it doesn't seem like Sissy thinks a lot of her departed sister.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I do because I also Googled it. They were an ether frolic.

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‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Classic ether frolic.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I would say the best of the four tempers. I'm willing to alienate the other three tempers in the process, but it's the only one that I want to be a part of.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

But what if episode nine is just Julia rolling up and you just get the full backstory of what happened here in Salt Snake?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

They own the Zufu Chinese restaurant.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

It's not a coincidence that often those company towns and that sort of payment systems came with extraordinarily dangerous work, right? Like things that people don't want to be doing, but then feel beholden to and feel trapped in because they don't have any actual currency to speak of.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

The Midwest part I thought was interesting with this episode because this feels very different in terms of the location, the setting. I mean, clearly, we're out and about in a way that we are not often very much on Severance. It also felt... I don't know where this was shot.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Okay, I was about to say, coastal Canada is kind of the vibe that it's evoking. And I think... You know, everything we've seen to this point, both in art and pixelated graphics and out in the real world, has been more like Lake Town oriented, it felt like. And this was, it felt like a real venture to the coast, to see some actual coast side.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

That's not the energy you want, let me tell you.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

You love when people do their reading. You know, you assign it every week and many people don't even crack open their books.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Our guy. You really don't. I do because... Not only can woe suck it, Dickens can suck it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

For sure. And also, I think from Sissy's perspective, the deep disappointment in someone that presumably, it seems like she had, at least after Harmony's mother's death, a sort of active hand in raising and presumably out on the warehouse or on the mill floor, like is in charge of Harmony in some ways. And you get the line about how she, you know,

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

she thought she was her beautiful flower, but she was just her weed. That line read was fantastic. I was very much a fan of everything that's going on there with Jane Alexander. But, This idea of not only are you trapped in this company, trapped in this life, this company, not just a company town, but a company lifestyle.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Respectfully, a lot. Our listeners are quite diligent. And this was something we mentioned that clearly stuck in a lot of people's craw was the idea that, oh, she is right-handed and therefore writing left-handed in the dreaded thank you card room would be a particular kind of torture, which agreed. Yeah.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

And when you try to break out of it, everyone you've ever cared about has stolen your ideas, has used them for their own personal gain, now sees you as a disappointment, is firing you, when you thought you were untouchable because if nothing else, you had dedicated your life to this cause.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

And now what are you left with if you're Harmony Cobell other than your precious, precious schematics that will prove I don't know to who, but even if I did have them, I wouldn't hand them to Sissy when she's standing by a fire. I will tell you that much.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

This is a woman who manipulated her brother, who kidnapped her child and then abandoned the child and committed lactation fraud. You tell me which of those is the worst. I don't know. But three things that Devin might be holding against Miss Cobell at this stage in the story. Again, I understand the desperation that you're alluding to.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

She just watched her brother go thud real loud on the floor and then be slowly brought back to consciousness. She's freaked. But I think there are many other places you could potentially go. And I think here's the thing. At this point, her being desperate and wanting answers with no Rigabi makes more sense than when Rigabi was still there.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

And she's saying, what if we called Miss Cobell and try to get Mark into the birthing retreat so we can talk to his innie? I didn't understand any of that.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I do have one thing I want to mention, Joe, which is so much about this episode, so much about this show, so much about Harmony Cobell we have talked about as being out of time and very difficult to pin down in terms of these very 70s and 80s cars that they use, the technology both inside and outside of the severed floor.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

It's so hard to get a feel for where we are and kind of what these people are dealing with. And there's kind of an interesting effect with that on the soundtrack this week, too. We get this track, Where Do We Go From Here, by Charles Bradley, after Harmony sees Hampton in the cafe, asks for a favor, and he immediately goes. Our guy is not hesitating.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

He wants that smooch so bad, even though he doesn't know it yet. It's this track that sounds extremely 70s soul, but was released in 2013. And if that's not severance, I don't know what is. That's really the vibe we're trying to cultivate.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I did. Wait, no, we did. We talked about this. It was like the etherphone. Etherphone. Classic etherphone.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I think there's only one choice, Joe, which is the middle box for roasting. I simply have to know what marshmallows are in there. Are we going to get a proper Keir stamped marshmallow within this box?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Wonderful. I mean, we can presume, but I want to know if the stamp's on there.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Unstamped.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Okay. You can stamp the chocolate? You can't stamp that marshmallow?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I'm going to touch the marshmallow. Famous last words by Joanna Robinson in her professional podcasting career. Stamp free.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Okay. I'm a little bummed, but look, I waited some more. Stamp or not, I'm thrilled about it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

But what delicious quote do we have, Jo, in box number one?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

My main takeaway from this clip, Jo, was that Patricia Arquette, as Harmony, has gone fully around the bend since episode one of season one.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Just the zaniness of the delivery overall has been amped up to 11.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

We certainly do.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Next box. I would love to see what's in the desk furnishing box because it's subtitled Pineapple.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I did learn what, you know, this is maybe a little far afield for this episode, which has nothing to do with Gemma anymore. Strictly Cobell focused this week. We got an email from Mary Kate about how the pineapple is a symbol in the fertility community, which is something that I can't. Did we brush on that as we've gone through the eight different things that pineapples represent?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

But in this case, I think there's a belief that eating pineapple at various points in your pregnancy will help establish it, especially in the IVF process. And the science on that seems a little bit fuzzy, but it's become this sort of like emblematic, hopeful thing, I think, for people trying to get pregnant, which is a fascinating subtext for severance too.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

One thing about the thank you note room that we did not mention that I wish we had was that it's playing Baby It's Cold Outside during that sequence, which does perfection.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Are we going full succulent on this thing?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Did you ever see the movie The Troll in Central Park?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

It's this animated movie about a troll who lives in Central Park and he has a superpower, which is his thumb turns green and he can make plants grow. But then the villain of the movie, I can't remember what the villain is, has a red evil thumb that kills the plants. And I would describe that as most accurate to my planting and nursing experience.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I don't even remember where we are in the cycle of it being pushed away slash recontextualized slash reclaimed. I've seen so many re-evaluations of that song. I don't know where we are.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

The light of discovery shines truer on a virgin meadow than a beaten path feels like something that Jane Egan might have told Harmony in sealing her idea. It's like, I am a wizened old inventor, but you are part of our family. And clearly your mind is more tapped in to the cosmos and its infinite potential. And therefore, this is why I'm going to take your idea from you.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

This is why everything that you've created belongs to me.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Yeah. I think that's the big takeaway as far as looking back at the Ms. Cobell scenes is a lot less ambitious middle manager, meddlesome, obsessive, just overall weird workplace element and more, oh, this is somebody who is tinkering from a place of scientific interest. This is somebody who clearly has not just...

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

a lot invested in the idea of severance, but in furthering it and perfecting it in the way that the scientific method would suggest you should.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

We certainly are.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I think the next box, I would love to see a tasty new snack. The top middle box.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Oh, we got to get a fruit leather in there. What was the, there was like split seeds or something in the lumen vending machine?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Split seeds, cut beans. Who's to say?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Okay.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

So we will finally understand what cut beans are.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Sure.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

We're going to need the full report. Just go to Jo's Instagram account where she will be live streaming her eating cut beans.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I also want to say that Harmony, for her part, is not not villainous. We've learned a lot more about her. She's still done some weird, fucked up things. And ultimately, I think it's still so driven by the idea of furthering her discovery and her invention, even if she's not given credit for it, at the expense of all of these people around her. Anyone who's working on the severed floor.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I liked it fine. Okay. I think... Given how long it had been since we last saw Harmony Cobell, I was a little underwhelmed.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Anyone else who might be severed out in the world. Drilling chips out of dudes' heads. But she has more hard data, to her point, on this subject than literally anyone else in the world. Even Rigabi, I don't think we have evidence to suggest, was able to study Petey's chip post-reintegration.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

You can be sympathetic and villainous at the same time. In fact, I would prefer if you are.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

The only option really.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I would love to hear auditory pleasure because I don't know how you would capture such a thing in a box.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

We got some, I think, some interesting character beats. This is certainly an episode that's going to change the way you think about Harmony Cobell in a couple of different key ways. And I'm not shying away from any of that. I'm not poo-pooing that. I think that stuff is really important.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Hell yeah, Joe. We're just flexing out here.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

So these things are roughly equal. You know, a pineapple air planter. Yeah. A marshmallow kit for some s'mores. And some AirPods. All of roughly equivalent value.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

But it had been 35 days for us in this world since we last saw Harmony Cobell in a Severance episode. And for this to be the sort of big payoff of that, I have mixed feelings about it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I don't want to watch leopards eat anybody's face. No. I also will say, I love the way they shoot the board audio box, the speaker box. Yeah. Just because they treat it almost like a character and, and,

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

People in the room are sort of craning around, staring at this box, waiting for the barest of possible responses.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

And one of the things that stuck out to me, Jo, in revisiting some of these clips, including some of the ones we're still going to get to, is this idea that because James Egan blatantly ripped off Harmony's idea, at least it seems at this point, took it, co-opted it, made it his own, the legend is now that he created it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

And we do see a photo in her yearbook for the Wintertide Fellowship of him handing her the trophy in which the schematics have been stashed. So clearly they had some kind of actual relationship.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

And at this point, there's just so many vibes in which it seems like he's decided he never wants to be in a room with Harmony Cobell ever, ever again and ever have to explain himself or apologize or contextualize or make any kind of concession to this woman who he has just exploited through and through basically for her entire life.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I would love to see stress control subtitled a squishy friend.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Joe, that is not a cow.

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‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

It's 100% a goat.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

We got to get you out to Salt's Neck. You got to interact with some real people.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Just all the child laborers out there. We've treated you poorly. Our bad.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

One thing that I do like about this particular reveal for Cobell is that we've already had the moment of revisiting a lot of Helena's scenes. You know, now that once we figured out that she was an Egan, you can rewatch season one and you can understand some of the context a little better.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

You can understand the sort of like my company, your company thing that's happening between Harmony and Helena or Heli at that point, even though she doesn't know she's Helena. And now that takes on a totally new flavor when you know that her company was built on your work and your ideas.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

And so the kind of wrestling within those scenes for meaning as we get reveal on reveal on reveal, that I have a lot of admiration for.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

What's the best box remaining? We have enhanced decor. I'm not so moved by it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

What do you think of what you've become, Jo, as a formal unboxer?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

As you live your life of luxury over there with all of your swag, you must protect it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

You were so close to being benevolent and then it was like, oh no, I just, I can't use these. It's not out of the goodness of my heart. It's just, I couldn't possibly actually use them.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Just chase you down on the street?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

How dare you, lady with a fake MBA, say this to a woman in STEM?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Okay.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

What she started with her throuple imaginings with the various marks.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

And this scene, too, is preceded, we should say, by Harmony's first instinct is to drive to Salt's neck.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

And then she turns around and comes back to Lumen to have this conversation and to make, like, one last pitch, basically, furthering the idea that you put forward earlier on this pod, Joe, that, like, she is a true believer. Like, she wants to be a part of the machine as much as anything. Like, she wants to continue living the Cure lifestyle.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

But at this point, they just are, like, refusing to not only respect her... but even give her the bare minimum of having her old job back.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I don't mind that either.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

What is your read at this point on whether Helena Egan knows that her father did not invent severance?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

She definitely could be. I think one thing that I'm so glad about in retrospect is during the overtime contingency, you know, you get that exchange between Jame, Egan, and at that point, Helly R in Helena's body, like posing as Helena. And so when Jame tells her,

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

this memory of, like, showing her the prototype for the Severance ship when she was a child, Helly has no means to dispute that, even if she knew that, even if Helena knows the truth, Helly wouldn't know the truth, that James didn't actually invent it.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

And so it's one of, yet again, one of these scenes where we're left, like, grasping at straws as to who knows what and when and what is true to whom. I do think Helena probably knows enough to know that maybe her family and the business is full of it in certain senses, and maybe has a sense that, like, This isn't all that it appears to be.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Maybe my father, who I have no idea if he has a scientific background or not, could not just invent something like a brain chip. But she's also in a position where she's not exactly incentivized to poke too hard at that idea. Any poking around she does would take herself down a peg in the process.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

But then who is the literal villain of the show?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

jame egan you know uh natalie also i mean natalie body of like a big metal spider or something like we we need something this is the problem with the eventual face turns of all the villains as these shows go on and yes i think all three of those characters have very good and natalie have all understandable reasons why they would ultimately come to side with our core macro data refiners

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

But if they do, you're going to have to introduce new villains, right? You're going to have to introduce the bigger bad to then overshadow the bads that we knew. And maybe the biggest bad is capitalism.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Clearly.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Certainly fits the sort of reintegrating theme of what's happening in the season right now.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

It is not my job. But if I were to do such a thing, Jo, I would probably lean towards parceling out the harmony elements of the story or... I think repositioning this episode within the season. And I think to do that, you'd probably have to change the way you break the whole season, because you can't go like Ortbo into the Harmony story.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I think that kind of cliffhanger, that would be a pretty cruel sort of delay on kind of what's happening with Irving, for example. But to come off of specifically Chakai Bardo into this, you just feel the momentum of the season and how thrilled we were coming out of last week. I'm screeching to a halt. It feels like the show's slamming on the brakes in a way that can be contemplative.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I appreciate what they're trying to do in establishing and broadening this character and making us think twice about Harmony and the things she said and the things she's done and who she is in this world. It just feels like you're introducing an element of sort of narrative inertia at a time where you want to be driving forward.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

She's awesome in this episode.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Well, and the longer she's gone, I think the bigger her landing has to feel. And this felt important to character. It felt important to plot and mystery in some ways, although I think less so. I have to say, who created Severance or did someone else create Severance was not a driving mystery of the show for me or something I was even all that interested in.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Who are they?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

See, I'm of a slightly different generation, and I caught True Romance later in life. But a very formative experience watching Patricia Arquette in that movie, I think, for a lot of people. Just one of those characters who is so indelible, who is so like... I think that movie and that story just does not work without her being as perfectly charismatic and also sort of elusive as she is.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

And in some ways, that's what makes her work in severance to this idea that, you know, she's like curled up on her mom's bed breathing out of a musty breathing tube. And like my whole body is cringing. And yet I cannot stop watching her do everything that she's doing. She's she's a wonderful performer.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

And I think the things that help her embody Cobell at this stage in her career, you can find the through lines earlier. It's like, it's all there in terms of these little threads of sort of ethereal or unsettling or like, she's just from a different place in time than the rest of us are.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Anyway, Jane Alexander is... It could be a big age gap, like older, younger sibling situation. In theory, I do think they leave it open enough for long enough for you to wonder. who are these people to each other?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

Well, does that even rule it out on a show like this? Who's to say?

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I'm Rob Mahoney.

The Prestige TV Podcast

‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins

I mean, flip my toboggan, Jo. Come on, let's get into it.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Oh, and he has the ability to take over and frankly should take over. I think the difference is against the Rockets, that takeover was much more in the mid-range and driving and in particular drawing fouls. And you don't always have total control over that as a player as to what gets called.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

But I didn't see any crazy no-calls in this game or a string where he was just getting absolutely beaten up beyond normal physical defense from a team that is bigger than you and can challenge you in ways that maybe other kinds of opponents can't. I thought the size... hampered his ability to get inside.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

And we're starting to see some of the limitations of the threes that Shea is taking as he's in this kind of growth curve process of becoming more of a pull-up three-point shooter. I've started to notice this thing where His body control overall is so good, in particular from mid-range and in the lane, that he's used to being off-balance when he takes those shots, right?

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Yep. Am I sick? Am I in my 30s? Or have I just recently returned from Las Vegas? Perhaps, as far as adults go, the germ capital of the world.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

He's contorting around defenders, into space, and managing to hit these really tough mid-range looks. He's almost translating that beyond the arc sometimes, too, in a way that you just can't. Like, you need...

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

your feet under you unless you're Steph Curry if you're going to pull up from three or I guess unless you're like LaMelo Ball and you're taking these weird one-footed runners but most shooters can't get away with that stuff and be consistent long-range threats you need the fundamentals the mechanics have to be a little bit more sound and he's playing the sort of unconventional style that makes him so effective at other zones on the floor but it just doesn't it's not consistent enough from long range for him to be that kind of shooter yet

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Yeah. And I think the thumpers are not always just big physical centers, right? In the Brooke Lopez or like Giannis kind of traditional big mode. Sometimes it is like the bigger power forwards, the bigger wings, like the physicality that you can leverage at those positions. That kind of stuff can affect the Thunder too. And they can get a look. OKC can get away with a lot.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

when they are historically one of the better defenses that we've seen in recent memory. That's going to paper over a lot of different things. It's going to make up for a lot of off-shooting nights. But the margins are going to get tighter, if not now, then in a few months.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

And this is a great kind of check-in test for them to say, you know what, for as good as we've been during the regular season as the Thunder, There's still a lot to do. There's still a lot to grow. There are still trades to make.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

There are still potential shooters to bring in or other kinds of talent or maybe kind of like combo forwards who might address a need that we don't quite have on the roster right now. For all of the options that Oklahoma City has, they have the means to get more and they should get more. I don't know if they will, though.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

I thought the like, it's a little thing, but there was a possession where the Bucks were kind of like isolating him post-wise more at the elbow. High post, yeah. High post more where it's like a little harder to run hard doubles at you from that space without exposing something. The Dirk post. Exactly, the Dirk post. And with J-Dub on him, hit a little Dirk kind of one foot turnaround.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

And it's like spin. Yeah. It doesn't have to be a tough shot. Like it's a shot you can take under balance. It's a shot that as he tried to do, you can ball fake and see if you can draw a foul. You can pass fake. See if you can get someone off their feet or when he's hitting the turnarounds like this, like that's a real weapon for Milwaukee. That's a great kind of poised source of offense for them.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

They certainly did. So thank you a lot for that.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Rob, do you feel any differently now? I guess it depends on what we want to say about before. Right. If we're talking about how we have felt about the Bucs, watching them play over what's now two to three weeks of just like really solid all around basketball. I think we're kind of still in that space and this isn't a dramatic step up from that, but it's a confirmation of it.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

And it's a confirmation of it, NBA Cup or not, against an elite opponent. That kind of stuff matters, right? Them exercising their will in this way, I think does matter and is a little different from what we may have penciled in for them a month ago.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

I think the transformation overall for Milwaukee from an effort standpoint, from a rotation standpoint, and as Waz alluded to, what they've been able to put together defensively after looking... just like a total mess on that end for not only the beginning of this season, but most of last season, it feels like a relief.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

It honestly, I don't know if you guys have this sense, but I just take, I take it on face that Giannis teams are going to be really good regular season teams that they're going to be really effective. And when the bucks are bad out of the gate, it's like, it's, it's shaking my worldview of basketball to its core. So for my sanity, I appreciate that Milwaukee is stabilizing and,

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

that we are seeing the things that, as you said, Justin, we're accustomed to seeing from them. But you can't just take all that as a given. You know, you got to show up and you got to prove it again every season, even if you do have the bones of something that can be successful.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

A true crisis.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Here's the bad news for the Bucs defense. Once you show us that you can do this, you have to do it, and we're going to hold you to it. This can be an expectation for you in a positive way and in a negative way.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Yeah, I think it's not the most competitive game in the fourth quarter we've ever seen. And for the NBA Cup, clearly you would prefer a different process. That said, outcome-wise, the Bucs being as good as they are right now, Giannis looking as dominant as he does right now, I think these are good things for the league overall.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Yeah, I think he's most valuable to the Bucs. And this was kind of a Brook Lopez issue, too, when they kicked the tires on some trade discussions around him over the past couple of years. It's like, what are you going to bring in that's more valuable to you than this guy you know how to play with? And Middleton raises a different series of concerns because of the injuries.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

And that's where I think if you're the Bucs, I hear you. And if there is a trade out there that is Middleton for multiple quality role players, I see the virtue in it. I get the logic in it. I just don't think that trade is going to manifest in a way that moves the needle in terms of what you're bringing back.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

And so you're kind of left with rolling the dice with Chris's health and seeing how he can come back over the course of the season and work himself back into the mix. Because defensively, he's not the guy he used to be. He's not really what the Bucks need, ultimately, on the wing. I think his playmaking is still important, and that's been where he's been best so far.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

But he's got to make some freaking shots when he comes back.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

I don't know. I am not saying that. I'm not saying that.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Here's the other bad news as far as a Chris Middleton deal goes. The Bucs are a second apron team, which means they can't aggregate salaries going out. So if they're going to trade Middleton, it's just Middleton. And yet they also can't take back a dollar more than they're bringing in. And so one, the first question, who is interested in Chris Middleton?

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

These are things that are interesting for us as we're trying to gauge the season and kind of where Milwaukee is in the greater hierarchy of this stuff. And for them to come in, against a team that is smaller but is ferocious in the way that they play and just looking as overwhelming as they did. This was like big brother on the Nerf hoop kind of stuff from Giannis and Brook Lopez in particular.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Do they have multiple role players that are of interest to the Milwaukee Bucs? Do the combination of those two role players make less than Chris Middleton in total, who... as far as like a two for one deal, he's making $32 million. And so you're looking at guys who are making combined less than 32. That's we're getting into where the pool is narrowing rapidly.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

As we get into the realistic things, the bucks can do Rob, figure it out.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

I'm just saying.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Becoming a Shaq segment real quick.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

This is the Darvin Ham Cup now.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

100%.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

I mean, shouts to Doc and Darvin and the whole Bucs staff. Like, we've praised all the players for the ways that they performed in the Cup. This was a great coaching performance.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

So why does it celebrate everything? Justin, you're saying don't celebrate everything but some things.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

I agree with that. Look, I think I'm probably more on the was into the spectrum in terms of like if you can find things to care about, you should care about them. And if the NBA Cup is something that matters to you.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

And this is where I think this overall like hand wringing about what the Bucks did in their celebration room and whether they donned goggles or popped champagne bottles or not is like a little overwrought. If you are taking that as a stand in. as a symptom for the players not caring about the NBA cup. I think the on-court product speaks very differently.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

The big, big passing just looked like something that the Thunder are not ready to handle. And maybe they will down the line when they get Chet Holmgren back. Maybe they'll take this and learn from it and they'll apply some different tactics against bigger teams going forward. But we're seeing one of the points of vulnerability for one of the best teams in the league in Oklahoma City.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Like Giannis is running himself into the ground. Although frankly, he does that most regular season games. Uh, but these guys are going hard out there. Like this was good competition overall. If one that the bucks outclass the thunder, and it seemed like these guys take these games seriously. And so what they do to celebrate it, I'm not like super concerned with, although I agree with you.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

why not live a little in a circumstance like this?

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Not with $500,000 in their pockets. Of course not. The cup is in this space, though, where by definition it cannot be everything. And you even heard this like from the players, from the coaches in the aftermath of it. It's like this is great for building momentum to what we want to do in the playoffs. Right.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Like this is something we can take and grow from and establish like a sense of continuity and growth and progress within our season. It's a good measuring stick.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

I think as an NBA culture and basketball community, we're still figuring out how to contextualize what that means and how much it should be celebrated and how to grasp a mid-season accomplishment in a league that has been dominated by rings culture for at least the better part of the last 20 years, if not longer.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Will you allow me to do one instance of the exact thing you were just complaining about and make one constructive suggestion for the NBA Cup?

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

I think, and this is not a novel idea, other people have proposed the neutral site being a little bit of an obstruction at this point. I kind of wonder if we're putting the cart before the horse with it, and we maybe should be playing these games at home arenas to get the energy up in the building and to create that sense of excitement and a moment.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

And we're seeing an ascendant stretch for a Bucs defense that's like finally getting its act together.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

And then once people are used to when the NBA Cup is on the calendar, what it means, the fact that it is a, if not a playoff, then a playoff-adjacent atmosphere, Once it's established, then you can talk about moving it to a neutral site.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

You need to become, not March Madness, but you need to create an identity of an event before you can put it in front of random people in a non-NBA city and hope for a huge, raucous atmosphere.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

I'm happy to make the ask. Also, I would like to conduct that survey. I think this is a great way for people to email us at ringergroupchat at gmail.com. If you went to the NBA Cup games, Let us know, were you a fan of one of the teams? What was your circumstances? How did your booking process go? Were you planning to go from the start and it just happened to luck into it?

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

I would genuinely like to know if any group chat listeners showed up and showed out and why and how they did it.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Were they doing like the one earbud each plugged into one phone?

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Two streams. Yeah.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

We love to hear it. Group chat, bringing and keeping people together, you know, just really, really the bonds of human connection.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

I don't know what the rhyme is on group chats together, but we'll workshop it.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

I have one last bit of cup house cleaning. I had written down in my notes, I can already tell that Justin hated the Giannis bit where he pretended to bobble the trophy. Did you see this bit and do you have an opinion of it? I saw Doc bobble it.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

I think that was it. I think that was basically the moment. And I put myself in your head and I'm like, for some reason, I feel like Justin is not going to appreciate this.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Look, the power dynamic is obviously a little different on this podcast. We are not Giannis, but I feel like you're speaking from a place of having to pretend to laugh at our bits. And you're connecting with Dame, perhaps, in this moment. That's how I make my money.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

So, well, let me ask you this. Like there are power forwards and then there are the power forwards that can actually guard Giannis worth a damn. And do the Thunder have a player of that build who can do that thing?

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

I think what's tough about their circumstances is like, there's a reason we're talking about Zach Levine and it's that any trade that nuggets make is going to be complicated. And if you're trying for like a high level shot creator, it's going to be a high level shot creator with a catch and the Zach Levine catch of not just what he makes. Cause frankly, I'm not too concerned about it, but it's,

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

the injury history. And if the goal is to alleviate pressure on Nikola Jokic, this is a guy who just historically is not consistently available to play. So yeah, you might be trading away. There's really no way to get a deal done that doesn't involve probably Michael Porter Jr., who's quite as kept having the best season of his career. And yet... And yet, like no one is saying it's enough, right?

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Like what they have currently in terms of taking pressure off of Jokic is not enough. And I see the merits of not only what Levine can be as a creator, but frankly, a guy who's been a pretty decent cutter and flare shooter and like he's been a movement player for the Bulls this season.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

I think it'll look real nice when he is available to play. And that makes me a little bit nervous. It feels like the right kind of address in basketball terms, but maybe kind of a short-sighted one in terms of where the Nuggets need to be, not just this season, but for the next three years.

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Yeah.

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

I don't think anyone's arguing with that, though. I think it is a tacit acknowledgement that Murray is not the player that they need him to be and the creator that they need him to be on a regular enough basis. And so they're trying to sort of triangulate that a little bit, right?

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

If it's not going to be the Murray-Jokic two-man game all the time, all day, every day, who is the third guy who's going to give us a little more juice off the bounce? Who's going to give us a slightly different way to balance out our second unit into the rotation lineups? I think Levine does some of that. He just also has all of these other catches that come with him. And I get why we're here.

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I don't think it's going to ultimately solve the Nuggets problem, sorry. But they may just be in a position and be desperate enough and be worried enough, I would say, about Jokic getting through the season in one piece that they feel compelled to do something this dramatic this soon.

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I just can't talk myself into Jordan Poole. I know he's having, by his seasons, a relatively nice little run here for the Wizards. He's been largely normal.

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Yeah, if that's where we start, by having to go out of our way to compliment Jordan Poole for being mostly normal this year, that's not what I want in a member of the Denver Nuggets supporting cast. I think the goal, as we've circled this particular issue and kind of taken it from every angle, like, you just need to get Jokic's minutes down. As you said, when he's on the floor, they're great.

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He's played 37 minutes a game. That's unacceptable. Especially for a big guy. It's just a lot. And he's an incredibly durable big guy, but he's not going to be for long if you play him this much. You need to get Jokic's minutes down into the 34-35 range where he historically has mostly been. The way you do that is not with Jordan Poole, I don't think. I think it is with someone like Zach Levine.

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

I think it is with something a little more dramatic. it's not good business long-term and it is creating the house of cards financially that will eventually have to be resolved. I just don't think that there's any other way out of this. And I don't want to make everything about KCP and Bruce Brown, like every Nuggets conversation kind of comes back to those, uh,

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originating incidents in a lot of ways. Bruce Brown left because the Nuggets couldn't offer him a competitive salary. Their hands were a little bit tied. KCP, they could have. They chose not to. You can look at KCP shooting percentages this season and say, you know what? Maybe they didn't make a huge error. Maybe it wasn't a devastating mistake. But Justin, you laid it out.

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

The problem of letting those guys go or losing them is not just that you're losing the player. It's that you're losing your only hope of tradable intermediate contracts. They don't have them. They don't have options. Now we're talking about Zach Levine and Jordan Clarkson and Jordan Poole. Like this is where you end up when that happens.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Yeah.

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Zach Levine is what?

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Zach Levine is Shaq? Is Antoine Jameson? Is who? Who?

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I'm just saying.

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

I actually think Zach Levine, the basketball player, is quite good when he is available. On offense, that is a player type that really appeals to me. And frankly, one that we've been talking about as a potential Jokic running mate for a long time because of the way he shoots and the way he can move when he is so inclined to do so.

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

I wonder if the comp, as far as the LeBron stuff goes, is like, I remember there was an era of like, should the Cavs trade for Amari Stoudemire trade chatter of like significant injury history, prodigious offensive talent. Maybe Amari is overstating a little bit what Zach is able to bring to the table.

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No. I mean, he stands neither as tall nor as talented, but I do think he could bring a lot. Because he eventually got injured a ton. Also true, you know, but you take a red wine bath and on all ales are fixed.

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

It's so true.

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Everything you're saying is valid and true. I also just want it on record that I see the occasional Jalen Pickett crunch time highlight. Or not crunch time, garbage time highlight. And I'm like, I'm talking myself into it. I'm drinking the Kool-Aid all of a sudden.

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I'm going to keep it in the West. And I'm wondering how seriously exactly do we need to take the Phoenix Suns? I come back to this periodically, mostly because their guys have been in and out of the lineup. there's like longer term concerns here about the rotation that I think they need to figure out. But most of it, as far as why we should be tuning into them now is that Kevin Durant is back.

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And when Kevin Durant is back, this team fucking wins games. They are 13 and two with Katie in the lineup this season.

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Absolutely insane. And yet overall, they find themselves at sixth place in the West. They find themselves with a slightly negative point differential and, Who are the Phoenix Suns? And who are they with Kevin Durant? Who are they without him? Do they need every single member of their core to be healthy? Do they have any ability to withstand it?

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I know KD brings something so unique to this table, not just in terms of shot making, but the way he kind of papers over their limitations on defense is so critical to the way Phoenix operates. I'm just trying to figure out what this team is as we get a feel for the rest of the West and things are starting to finally solidify.

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The team selection thing is so weird because, yeah, he is picking, you know, super team type situations, great theoretical running mates in certain ways, especially in terms of talent. But he is the living meme of like when you accidentally make yourself critical at work. Like he is important to every possession of Suns basketball, no matter how many stars he tries to play with.

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

It really doesn't matter.

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Yeah, he's even coming up.

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

I like that we're getting a consultation with Dr. Verrier today. He's in. He's giving prognoses.

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

That would be the case for it. I think it depends on his willingness to do that. You know, we were used to talking about Kawhi in a very specific way as this like razor sharp offensive weapon. What he is, if he's not that on a heavy usage basis is like not a guy who moves the ball a ton, not the defender that he used to be clearly an incredibly talented player and a star in his own right.

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

But if he's a star who can't play star minutes or carry a star role like Like, what are you? What are you to a team that, as we've said, is, you know, I think playing over its head is one way to put it. Like overachievement is a compliment, right? Like if you are performing better than your talent, that's not a dig at the players.

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That's saying this group has found a way to play together and they found a way to play together because everyone knows what the hell they're supposed to do. Kawhi being out there makes that a little bit fuzzier. It makes it really fuzzy for someone like Norm Powell or Vita Zubats, like guys who've become really important to the offense. And now Kawhi's back every fourth game.

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

And you're supposed to just not do that on those nights.

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it's there for them I'll say that I'll say this as far as this conversation goes you know we've talked throughout this pod about like teams that could use just like one more live body in the rotation you know whether it's the Bucks whether it's the Nuggets whoever you want to talk about the Clippers are kind of that too like they have some solid rotation guys but ultimately especially over the last couple weeks or last month or so like

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The guys that they're starting have mostly done really, really well together. Those are groups that make sense, whether it's been Derek Jones, whether it's been Amir Coffey, whether it's been Norm Powell. They've had guys in and out of the lineup. Most of those groups have fared well. It's when they get into the bench that they just aren't finding enough minutes of what they need

The Ringer NBA Show

Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

And if Kawhi Leonard is a guy who can join the rotation and give them even 20 good minutes, that is a meaningful thing for the overall state of the Clippers. It just comes with all of these bigger existential threats to the team that they've been in the ways that they want to play.

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Yeah, he has those games. He has those stretches of the season. He has those playoff series, frankly, where he looks like the best player in the world. He's absolutely that talented, absolutely that physically dominant. And, you know, we've been talking about him in the context of trying to guard him with wings and trying to swipe at the ball.

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

It was telling, even seeing him up close against the Hawks the other day, like he's just physically bigger than Clint Capella. Like he's physically stronger, bigger, taller than probably whoever you put on the floor that's an actual center. And to have a player like that who I would say is like one of the best spin moves in the NBA in terms of the momentum that he maintains.

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I think it's very easy for people, especially watching from home, to underestimate the difficulty of trying to score at a full sprint. And Giannis does this all the time. Like, For guards, it's so hard to maintain the touch, going full speed and getting it off the glass soft. Giannis doesn't have that problem as much because he can go full speed and then just dunk on anybody.

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

And so to have that capacity while also drawing fouls the way he does, while creating for others the way he did, I thought he and Dane both played like, for handling so much creation for the Bucs in this game. Very patiently overall, like really picking their spots, really reading the defense.

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

They seem pretty keyed in on the second and third Thunder defender that we're going to come in to do the swiping. And we're either going through it and drawing fouls or kicking to the weak side corner in a way where, yeah, the Bucs were just hitting more shots than the Thunder did. How OKC survives these kinds of games is, yes, something that I think we should entertain and talk about

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

I just think most of those kinds of games are not going to involve Giannis, and therefore the Thunder are going to be okay against the vast majority of opponents. But this kind of matchup, the Giannis type of matchup, to the extent that that is a thing, is a problem for them.

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100%.

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Some other things that cramp their spacing. One, Alex Caruso being on the floor offensively is starting to become a little bit of a problem against high-level teams or teams that have this kind of star power and this kind of effort in terms of what the Bucs are putting forth defensively. I think he just... He's giving opponents places to hide.

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In a game like this, it's like Dame can chill on Alex Caruso for a minute and keep the strength, keep the energy to go hard on offense. Or you can put someone like Switchbrook or Giannis onto him and roam off of that. And as you were saying, Woz, like...

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Who you can kind of switch into and roam off of is always one of the dark horses in terms of what decides high leverage games, high level playoff series. Caruso gives you options to do that when he's not hitting shots and he's not hitting shots.

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And I think you were right to point out the other way that what Brook Lopez is bringing to the Bucs offensively makes it really hard for players who aren't bigs. I think they're figuring out the balance of how to use him in a way that's not just spacing. And he will hit some threes and he is going to stretch the floor. And there's going to be times where it's Damian is pick and roll.

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Brooke, you go stand two feet behind the three point line. And that's where you are on this play. But the duck ends, the rolls, the cuts, especially when it's smalls guarding him. That's stuff that the Bucks have to leverage and absolutely did against the Thunder.

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There was also the near highlight where Hartenstein was coming down the lane And basically had to contort himself and fold himself up to not get blocked by Giannis on that one. Like, he basically just gave up mid-drive because Giannis rotated over to contest him. And it's like, I almost can't blame him. It doesn't matter if you're a small or a big.

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

If you're seeing Giannis meeting you at the rim... we know what that can be. And we know he will go after those blocks in like really important moments of games, right? He's not going to give up just because it's crunch time or just because like it, maybe he has a couple of fouls.

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Like Giannis will keep going after shots in a way that I think is not just admirable, but really vital for the way the Bucks play.

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

It's not a coincidence that he was the last to fly out. I know that for sure.

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

Yeah, I think you could point in a game like this where we should say the Thunder scored 31 second half points. That's just not going to work. That's not enough, to say the least. If you want to put that on J-Dub, if you want to put that on Shea, I'm open to the permutations as to allocate that kind of pressure and responsibility. I think collectively they weren't good enough.

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I think there's lots of Shea shots in this game. that are just like, that's not the shot you take in this moment. And granted, he's a star who has all of that pressure on him that you mentioned, Justin. Like, if he doesn't score, their offense sometimes doesn't go. That is on J-Dub. That is on the secondary and tertiary creators on the team to alleviate that pressure.

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Giannis Trounces OKC to Win the NBA Cup. Plus, Denver’s Hail Mary to Help Jokic and More Post-Cup Story Lines We’re Watching. | Group Chat

That said, the shots that he's settling for sometimes are just not great looks, even by star standards, and especially for his shot profile.

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I mean, I'm the biggest Devin Vassell booster there is, I think, and I'm trading Devin Vassell for De'Aaron Fox. Yeah, that I feel pretty comfortable with. And to be honest with you, the idea of a Fox-Castle backcourt while small is something I can get behind.

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Yeah, especially if the Kings are a Jalen Green believer. Then you can really get somewhere if that's kind of the conversation starter.

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You say that, but they could really fucking use Atari Eason right now. Like that is a big part of their problem.

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We could use some of that. You know, I think we need to channel a little bit of Atari Eason at 2025. Just like get into each other's faces a little bit more. Raise our level of antagonism on this pod.

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I would love to hear a Woz grievance out of the gate.

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I think it's a combination rising stars plus some G League guys.

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Giving Candice the rising stars is bogus, by the way. I just want to go on record.

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See, I thought, you know, people were just skating right past the was as Luigi possibility. Oh, yeah. Cross-racial comp. I'm just saying, if one of us is a comrade who is fighting for the people, it's Watts.

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Just figure it out.

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I'm torn. On the one hand, I agree with you. There's been a lot of tinkering in the NBA lately. And in a way that I think makes some of the product unrecognizable to certain pockets of people, makes it feel like every problem is bigger than it is because everything is being addressed all the time. I think that's a real psychological thing that's happening.

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On the other hand, Waz, I think you are underestimating the power of shame. And in particular, not being the team that loses to the rising stars and the G League guys, I think is a motivator. I also think something we've experienced with all-star games in recent history is the game starts.

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You are quickly reminded of how not basketball it is and how, Oh my God, I just, I'm going to sit through four quarters of this shit and have separating it from one four quarter game in which the second half is just interminably long because no one is playing hard and no one wants to watch it. Uh,

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trading that for three smaller games in which we get new people in and have to kind of restart the action. I wonder if that might actually help a little bit where it's not just, oh, we're rolling into the second quarter, but here are the other teams and one of them might lose to the G League.

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I'm not doing hoop idea involve the Saudis. That's not a thing we are going to participate in. It's not it.

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It works for our government.

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Yeah. If I can sneak a grievance within the grievance here, I have seen a creeping nihilism out there of why even try to save the All-Star game. Look at the Pro Bowl. Look at the MLB All-Star game. No one pretends that these things are important. They're like... The Pro Bowl is done.

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That's what I'm saying. They're non-events. They completely nuked it. So why are we fighting to keep All-Star? I think you identified something, Waz, that's really important and why the NBA All-Star game should work, which is the nature of basketball is so much more confrontational, specifically than baseball.

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But because it is five-on-five, because it can devolve into a one-on-one game in a good way... even more so than football too. Like there is much more. I am going to score and embarrass you. I'm going to isolate and attack you specifically. You can't guard the pick and roll. I'm going to call you up and I'm going to show you up on national television.

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Those things should juice the competitive environment. And there is a basis of something here that can work, but the guys have to be invested in it. And like, I'm all for the conversations as to like how to incentivize them to do that. But I'm still a believer that the all-star game can be a thing.

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It's not a joke. That's just a lie. That's just a lie. I mean... Justin, can I ask you a question? Yeah. Have you ever been Sinteld before? I don't think so. Not knowingly. Okay. Have you? Also, I don't know. Maybe we've gotten to extended bits on this pod that were rooted in fake news. But look, I agree with you.

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The whole point of it is that it needs to be so ridiculous that when someone does take the bait, haha, we can all laugh together. But if it's just fake trade posturing, that's not a joke.

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I think you're giving him too much credit. I think you're just being like... NBA Centel is not operating at that level. I just don't think that's what the intent is.

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This isn't punching up at power. That's not what's going on on NBA Centel.

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Would you volunteer your services as a joke doctor?

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Well, I think it's open for negotiation, but NBA Centel, if you want to punch up your material, Justin Verrier is all ears. Let's get the W2 going.

The Ringer NBA Show

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I also want to talk about the ways in which we are communicating with each other. But in this case, the way that the teams are communicating to us, and I say us being fans, I say us being members of the media, I say us being everyone outside of the little bubble. we got to cut the shit with the way teams are disclosing injuries.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

And in particular, the communication around things like Joel's injury to start the season was embarrassing, like genuinely embarrassing. And I think damaging for the league as a product and most importantly, in the spirit of Festivus, just very frustrating for me personally. And I will not stand for it. If a player has swelling in his knee, call it inflammation. Call it swelling in his knee.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

If it is the complication of a surgery, tell us that is the complication of a surgery. You cannot sit out indefinitely for rest. You cannot sit out indefinitely for gradual ramp up. Like you get one game. One game, excuse free, like he's sitting up for rest. After that, I think you've got to start saying what the fuck is actually happening.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

This is really your Super Bowl, I would say.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

I thought this was him in real life putting that out there. Is that the Wahlbergers motto? What's going on?

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

See, this is why I would recommend if you are a team swing in the other direction. Tell us that every player is going to be out six weeks. And then when they come back in three, it's like, oh, my God. What an incredible trajectory. What a great rehab story. Over promise. Exactly. Set expectations low and deliver over them, I think is a totally valid thing.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

But the way it works right now, it's just not good for anybody. And I know this because it's not just members of the media who are upset about it. It's not just fans. The interaction between Joel and Sixers fans at the start of the year got really toxic because no one knew what was going on.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

And it's bad for the coaches who the head coach of a team is the most accessible member of the organization. Like they're available twice on game days, basically every practice or availability. They are being hounded and questioned constantly. When is this guy going to be back? What's the update for this player?

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

And they just have to stand there and be frustrated that they don't have good information or new information or can even reflect accurately what the fuck is going on. So who are we serving ultimately by giving these weird, vague timelines for things?

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

Well, look, you've gone through a move. Things famously get, you know, misplaced. The tree, you can't quite find it. You don't have all of the accessories and decorations you need.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

I think you're giving one person too much credit for literally anything. Those are giant league-wide trends.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

Yeah, I think, look, there's a difference to me between there's the things that become league-wide trends because they work, like teams shoot a lot of threes because it's efficient basketball, and then there's this shit, which doesn't serve any purpose. Like Waz was mentioning, there's no competitive advantage to be gained.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

And in this, just like a little smuggle of grievance in this, if you are an NBA head coach and you go up for your preseason availability and you're asked what the starting lineup is and you're like, I'm going to hide this until 15 minutes from now when I have to report my lineup card. Who are you? Why are you doing that?

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

The pole. Micic himself will have to stay in the closet or in some box that's been squirreled away somewhere. But, Waz, I hope we can bring the spirit of Festivus in Vasily Micic's absence. You know, I hope we can match Justin's level of griping and really just, I think... Him getting the head start of already being so aggrieved all the time, all year. We have to muster it in a different way.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

And a one-time artificial circumstance that led to it.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

Yeah. I think it's especially such a cry-foul situation when you have ownership who is, on the one hand, begging for the restraints, right, in this way, to not be pressured to have to spend, not be pressured to dip into the tax. But with the other hand, is begging for public funds for new arenas. And it's like... You got into this spot to spend money. That is your role.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

That is what you bring to the organization.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

I know these are all self-professed titans of industry. who believe themselves to be managerial geniuses. And some of them, I'm sure, are bringing something in terms of organizational value.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

The market solves everything unless we're talking about free agency or the draft or overall spending under the apron.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

Yeah, I actually like that idea. I'm sure there's some unintended consequences we're not quite reckoning with yet, but I agree that it's kind of redundant to have both in a certain extent.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

and if I can offshoot here into one of my grievances, I just think the current state of the league makes us care about contracts too much. And we have sort of like an adult collective GM brain. And I say that not just for the people who are terminally online and in the trenches arguing about the NBA on the internet every day. I'm talking everybody.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

There's a certain class of player for whom it is impossible to have a conversation about how they play without starting to talk about their contract. You cannot say the name Brad Beal Without getting into a giant referendum on how the Suns were built. And some of that is like some of that is us in the media. Some of that is just like how we got here.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

I think some of it is the sort of overall trajectory of turning us all into human trade machines because of the way that the NBA has operated, not necessarily right now, but over the last decade. We are at a place now where trade like the trade possibilities are so limited by the aprons. It's insane.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

Can we just like if that's going to be the case, if we are going to have an apron to NBA, can we get out of talking about every player by their $45 million price tag? Like, I just don't care how much CJ McCollum makes at the end of the day. I know we have to be realistic. I know there's a dovetailing conversation with expectations and reality. But ultimately, I would like to talk about basketball.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

And I feel like we spend way too much time as a broader basketball society talking about spreadsheet bullshit.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

No longer, by the way, they have they have since slipped.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

Who fits the criteria to you? This is music to my ears.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

I think ultimately, I don't know that I care enough about the NBA as a business to advocate for something like this. I just don't care if the NBA is maximized in terms of its profits. Now, if we're talking about, as you said, Justin, the basketball consequences of those things, of where players want to play... Then I think I'm more open to it.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

But also, there's a room for glamour markets that are not necessarily the biggest markets. And that's where we're kind of talking across.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

And the way to do that is coastal elitism at the end of the day. And also, Justin, I have to say, from your perspective, quite selfless, because you are advocating for Portland to lose its team and to give it to L.A., basically.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

This is getting real granular. We're getting more into the actual flow of the game. We need to stop challenging plays where there are not points at stake. If it's just like an out of bounds in the second quarter, what are you doing? Why are you challenging that?

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

Honestly, I'm totally down with that too. But so long as it exists, it needs to be used for plays of actual consequence. And like a momentum changing out of bounds call is not enough.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

Well, Billy Kennedy's delivery of the verdict has made basketball better, but the actual challenge is no.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

I would even go as far as to say it's bad for kids. If you are a child watching the NBA and you are brought up to understand, for one, that you should be calling for replay anytime you play basketball. But also, let me tell you, there's no replay review in real life.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

Your circumstances are inherently unfair.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

This is what I'm talking about. There are people all around you who are going to make arbitrary decisions about how you live your life that are going to fuck you over. And you need to get used to that at a very formative age.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

First hoop idea, fix Waz's hot tub. Second hoop idea, get us all in there. Let's do it.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

We should know less about each other and especially about NBA referees. That's for sure. Unfortunately, I think what makes all of this so thorny is that the NBA is now so in bed with sports gambling culture that the verdicts of these individual plays are supercharged. And thus, the existence of something like a challenge is like the one last corrective you can reach for.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

If you're living and dying with these games, say, oh my God, at least they got that one play right that swung my over-under. But like, if that's where we are, we're so screwed.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

I think it's somewhere in the middle still because you can see the Kings talking themselves into the intermediate panic trades to try to, you know, give Fox something to believe in. But the panic is real for a reason. And it's like, if you look around in Sacramento right now, what are you hanging your hat on? What are you choosing to invest in if you're a player of De'Aaron Fox's caliber?

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

I do agree with this, though. I think overall, some markation of overtime games would be good in the official record. Also, some way to include or legitimize the NBA Cup games as having actually existed would be nice.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

The fact that we're talking about teams winning streaks and losing streaks continuing around the Cup, the stats not factoring into the official season totals or season averages, it's just kind of weird.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

If there was a team, say that if you make it all the way to the NBA Cup final, that counts as an 83rd game at the end of the day. Wouldn't that be a good marker in the history books to very easily and quickly say, oh, those were the teams that were in the Cup because they have 83 game totals?

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

If we're going to play 82, what the fuck is an 83rd?

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

This is a team that has been circling the drain for the vast majority of the season. We can go through the laundry list of the things that have gone wrong there. First and foremost, I feel like the offense is devolved, and this is not a team that's good enough defensively to survive that kind of thing.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

This is the most millennial coded take that's ever been on this podcast. That's really saying something.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

100%. But isn't that also like a neat marker for the passage of time? You know, you can look back and be like, why did I have that haircut? Why did I have that facial hair? Why was I wearing pants that were three times your pants right now?

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

I will not be showing you any pants on this podcast.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

Spoiler alert. No comment on that. But look, I'm not partaking in the JNCO-sized jeans. I didn't at the time, to be honest with you, because my parents expressly forbid it. Maybe because they were of the Justin Barrier school. They were like, no, you don't need that. And they were right.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

It's not a team that can bring in DeMar DeRozan and then not understand how to use him or not implement him in a way that's going to make him comfortable in addition to everything else that they're doing. And so, yeah, if you're De'Aaron Fox, who can be a free agent in 2026, I can understand why you'd be looking around at alternative situations.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

I like this take.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

What you're talking about is fascism, Justin. It's very different.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

If you're the Sacramento Kings staring down that same free agent deadline, you have to be realistic about this stuff. They are on the clock right now, and they are losing game after game after game while they're on the clock.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

Definitely. I think there was smoke the day Fox turned down that contract extension.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

Yeah, but the grocery bill's in Sacramento. It's all relative, you know?

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

Yeah, I think it's every level of the organization that is struggling right now. If you want to go on a player-to-player basis, Keegan Murray can't shoot. That's a problem. That is one of the guys that they do have on a team that is already quite shallow, as you said, Justin. So the fact that the team is shallow is a management problem.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

The fact that some of the players aren't performing up to their usual levels. I think Murray, Kevin Herter falls into that bucket. DeMar is hard to place in this because it's tough to parse out what is... His discomfort with the offense and what is the team not using him particularly effectively? He scored two points in that blowout loss to the Pacers where the Kings got booed on their home floor.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

He has scored two points in a loss. Like the last time he scored so few points in a loss was 2014. This is one of the most stable bankable scores in the league. You put DeMar DeRozan on the floor, he will get buckets for you unless he feels this disjointed and he feels this much of an accessory to what they do.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

And like all of the movement and handoffs that used to feel really dynamic in Sacramento now are so rote and predictable and teams know how to play it. and there's a lot of heat coming at Mike Brown right now, and I think for good reason. His rotations are very confusing. Why Keon Ellis continues to be a marginalized part of this team, I don't really understand.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

Malik Monk has done well enough as a starter, as you alluded to, JV, but I don't see anyone on this team covering themselves in glory, and when you're De'Aaron Fox... That's when things start to get a little bit spicy.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

When you're not having faith in the organization to make the right moves, when you're not having faith in your coach to push the right buttons, when you can't look down your bench and say, those are the guys that I really trust to do their jobs. That's when it might be time to move on, to be honest with you.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

Long time.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

I just want to say we got your tweets. We saw them. We saw your jokes. I'm hoping we can avoid the Brooklyn pen, the three of us. I'm hoping we're not out here committing light to medium fraud.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

Yeah, there's a bit of a tightrope because I want to believe in an NBA ecosystem where fans of a team can grow with the players that are on it and not live under the constant threat that their superstar is going to ask out. But this is not a guy who just showed up, as we've been talking around.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

It is a veteran, established, entrenched member of the Kings who has not been done right by the organization. And I think we make the jokes about Clutch. But clutch exists as a correction to the way the NBA used to work, right? It is a grab at power and a shift in a different direction. And the fact that he is represented by Rich Paul is certainly material here.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

You're right that San Antonio is like screaming on the board, right? That is a possibility that if you are a point guard that could be your spot. If you are a dynamic creator, that could be a spot for you for the next, you know, for the foreseeable future, really. I also think if you were the Houston Rockets, this is one of the windows you've been waiting for.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

And De'Aaron Fox is not the Kevin Durant level star that, you know, they've been linked to him or a hardened return or whatever. But like, Fox has some Houston ties. He is exactly the kind of creator that they need. Everything that you are frustrated with as a Rockets fan with the way Fred Van Vliet has played this season with Jalen Green, stop and start playmaking.

The Ringer NBA Show

NBA Festivus! Plus, Is De’Aaron Fox Planning an Exit from Sac-Town? | Group Chat

Darren Fox is a he coalesces in all of those traits and all of those skills. And he can fucking guard people. If you are a team like Houston, I think you got to get to the phone.

The Zach Lowe Show

Playoff Drama! NBA First-Round Action Heats Up With Rob Mahoney.

that you'd say like win it for the bay sure win it for her i like that the pacers went away from win it and they have yes sirs like oh you know what don't love the pun it's not it's not great it's kind of artful in like its own silly way but i i like it i'm gonna give them props for yes sir i would take a yes sirs shirt and wear it around

The Zach Lowe Show

Playoff Drama! NBA First-Round Action Heats Up With Rob Mahoney.

Is that close to home for you? And, oh my God, I should have led with this. JJ Redick played the same lineup for an entire half of basketball. He certainly did.

The Zach Lowe Show

Playoff Drama! NBA First-Round Action Heats Up With Rob Mahoney.

How about they call a post-up for him? Was it to open the game or open the half?

The Zach Lowe Show

Playoff Drama! NBA First-Round Action Heats Up With Rob Mahoney.

Do you do this in real life? Like if my wife is like, hey, you didn't wash that dish carefully enough. Should I just start swirling my finger?

The Zach Lowe Show

Playoff Drama! NBA First-Round Action Heats Up With Rob Mahoney.

You're inside only.

The Zach Lowe Show

Playoff Drama! NBA First-Round Action Heats Up With Rob Mahoney.

I would just run out of bounds. If that guy were coming at me, I would be like, let's go to overtime.

The Zach Lowe Show

Playoff Drama! NBA First-Round Action Heats Up With Rob Mahoney.

I am quite confident that that was the best rebound of his entire basketball life when he stole the ball from Jokic, jumped over him and laid in an up and under to give the Clippers a lead in the game.

The Zach Lowe Show

Playoff Drama! NBA First-Round Action Heats Up With Rob Mahoney.

Where has this Tobias been all of our lives? Philadelphia fans would have loved this Tobias Harris. He's talking crap. He's pushing. He's shoving. He makes mean faces, it turns out. This is all Philadelphia fans wanted, minus the gigantic salary. They would have liked this Tobias. I like this. Where has this guy been? Is there something about Detroit? I love it.

The Zach Lowe Show

Playoff Drama! NBA First-Round Action Heats Up With Rob Mahoney.

He's not Kevin Garnett from 2007?

The Zach Lowe Show

Playoff Drama! NBA First-Round Action Heats Up With Rob Mahoney.

Gentleman Al Horford is like wagging his, literally wagging his finger like, do not do that. That's not nice.

The Zach Lowe Show

Playoff Drama! NBA First-Round Action Heats Up With Rob Mahoney.

Can't win them all. I'm also like a Jalen Green optimist. That's not going great. Well, he's had his moments.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

for one, it nukes the market as far as expectations for what a Giannis deal looks like. I don't know, man. Luka just got traded for a bunch of peanuts and Anthony Davis. It's crazy times we live in, ultimately. This would have been great to know, if you're the Mavericks, that Giannis was eventually going to potentially be on the market.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

That might be something you may have wanted to hold off for if you were going to trade your franchise player at some point. But given that you did, The Mavericks cannot win this lottery. Like, I just don't think the basketball gods can allow it.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Like, if you get here by making a franchise-spiting trade and ultimately falling into the lottery because you bet on two guys who get hurt a lot and one of them, or both of them, it brings me no joy to say, got hurt.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

I believe it was the former mayor, but, you know, politicians out of the wood where everyone has a take, you know?

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

OK, mayor guy, go on. You're bringing it. Let's talk shot diet. I just don't think the Mavericks can win this lottery. I don't think they should win this lottery. I just don't think it would be right, given the way that the last couple of months have been unfolded. I say that with all all due apologies and respect to the Mavs fans who have suffered as a result of it.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

I'm doing great. I'm just happy for you, Zach. You know, really, whatever icebreakers you had planned for the lottery room, you can throw them in the trash. You know, you get your easy material right here asking anyone and everybody about Giannis and his future and what's going to happen here. And I think what makes it exciting is that it's anybody's guess.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

It's just like it can't lead to this.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

I think Dallas would be my answer. If I need an answer that's not Dallas, it's complicated because it's a team that is probably one of my favorite destinations, but also just like unquestionably not deserving of it. And that's the Charlotte Hornets, who I think would be super fun with Cooper Flag. But have they covered themselves in glory getting here?

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Have they done the things as a franchise that you'd want? Like, okay, you acclimated yourself well to these situations. You managed these assets leading up to this point in time. You're a well-run, well-functioning team. You know, maybe they've taken some baby steps in that direction over the last year, but not nearly far enough. And so like they don't deserve Cooper flag. Would I like to see it?

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

I'm a sicko and I would. I have to admit it.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Give them something. You say that and I agree, but sometimes you get into business with Miles Bridges and you just deserve what you get. Things happen.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

I think Houston would be one as a team that like has built a lot and cultivated a lot and kind of gone for it in an aggressive way where they're spending money, they're participating in the process, they're investing in their future, but they have yet to make that like big swinging move. I think Cooper would be such a fascinating piece for them because he doesn't actually solve their sort of like

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

inherent flaw, right? Like he doesn't bring them the half court killer that they need necessarily, but he amplifies everything that they are in a way that would force you to reconsider the future of that team and reconsider the shape of that team.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

I would love to see Houston rewarded for the way it's steered into having a hyper-aggressive defense, being a more professional outfit, like spending on veterans and creating like a different sort of path forward for teams like that.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

It's the full dessert bar situation. I think you should go for that if you can get it. And look, Giannis on the Spurs is no more gluttonous than that, ultimately. I feel greedy even suggesting that possibility. But I think it's twofold with the Rockets. One, yes, they have a lot of irons in the fire already. A lot of mouths to feed in terms of good young developmental players.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

I don't want to mess with too, too much unless it is the exact perfect fit. And I think Giannis is a really good one because he's Giannis, but not as clean as a shooting option would be. And that's the other part of it is you either give up Ahmed Thompson in a deal like that, or you're playing Ahmed Thompson and Giannis together for serious minutes for the foreseeable future.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

And that's like a little clunkier.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Jabari Smith was born to be a shooting guard. Like, let's just get him out there. Let's run him through some curls. I think we got something.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

I think it's fair. I like some of the pieces there, not just Sarab. I'm a Keishon George guy. I'm a Balakula Bali guy. I would like to not have to be the person standing on the parapet yelling down below like, Look out for Bilal Koulibaly. It's just much easier self. I'm like, hey, Cooper flag's coming. You know, ultimately, it's just a more straightforward basketball pitch.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

And like, Lord knows the Wizards just need some of those.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

I think so.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Completely awesome win. And I think it's exactly the sort of information we're talking about when we're talking about like, how do the Thunder think about their future? Do they believe in this core? Do they believe in its ability to navigate these sorts of moments? This is one of those moments. You have to be able to get your way through these nervous, haggard sorts of games.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

As you said, quick turnaround, often overtime game in game three. The stakes are what they are. You're feeling the tensions rise. And I think after the fact, We talk about a lot of playoff results as if everything was concrete and everything was self-evident, and it's almost never the case.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Usually, in a run like the one the Thunder are trying to go on, like the one great teams have gone on before, those are built on precarity. Those are built on moments where everyone's kind of looking around the room, And it feels like it could go either way. You have a Golden State versus Memphis in 2015, I think that was. Milwaukee against Brooklyn. Heat Pacers back in the big three days.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Absolutely. And those could have huge implications for the build of the team. Heat Celtics. that's part of going through the paces. It's part of what this is all about. And what you want to see is some growth and some evolution. And you want to see who's built for these moments and who's ready to come up with the massive, massive plays required.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

And I think Shea was such an interesting push and pull in that way because, as you said, he made some weird decisions down the stretch And he also hit some huge shots. I think he is indisputably a big-time shot maker. And he is in the process of figuring out what it means to be a big-time decision maker. Because he's hitting those shots, but he's dribbling off his foot.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

He's gnashing through the lane and killing the entire shot clock.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

They're making it super hard. I'm with you, though, that I'm feeling more optimistic coming out of this game about Oklahoma City's execution against that zone. It's still a little sloppy sometimes. It's not as clean as you would want. And we should say it's not just a zone, but there's a zone that they'll bring two to the ball on Shea while playing zone and force the ball out of his hands.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

It morphs. It's really aggressive. And I thought they broke some stuff open using Alex Caruso as a screener for that zone, which was very like Andre Robertson coded to me. Like, let's bring our non shooting wing up and get him in the action. But that was able to be able to get Shea into the lane that way.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

And I asked him, this wasn't the best J-Dub game by any stretch of the imagination, but the fact that they're not hard doubling J-Dub at the top of that zone in the way they are Shea allowed him to get into the paint and I thought make some interesting plays. And so there's enough stuff for the Thunder to work with and enough guys who can hit shots and you would trust on a given night.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Some of them will, some of them won't. Some of them are going to Lou Dort it and shoot their way out of the game. Some of them are going to be like Case and Wallace in this game, who I thought was just Fucking nails down the stretch. Really, really important minutes.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Huge shots for a guy who, admittedly, I'm a huge Case and Wallace supporter, is still kind of finding his way into games like this and figuring out where he fits and what he needs to be doing. But they have enough good role players to cycle through to figure out who can play in this moment, who can fit against this zone on this night.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

And I thought Shay and Jada both are showing some evolution in how they're attacking it.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

There was a stretch of this game where Denver's best offense was just Christian Brown run as hard as you can in transition. And that's literally the only way we're scoring for like four minutes at a time.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

I think a lot of that is that zone. And to your point, you do have to bust out of it one way or another, uh, that big to big lob action, whichever way it's going, chat to Hardenstein, Hardenstein to chat. Like that's really juicy stuff, but can really only work for them out of man. It's just I don't think there's enough space for them to get that kind of momentum going against the zone.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

And so, yeah, Chet has to hit shots. He's just such a clunky fit against the way Denver's playing zone right now. I'll do credit to the Nuggets who have been playing with the defensive energy and have been jamming up the gaps in a really inspiring way, in a way that negates whatever athletic disadvantages they have in this series on balance. Right.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Like this Thunder team should be looking really explosive. And they look like they're stuck in the mud in a lot of these games. And Chet in particular just has no space to do anything. But a lot of that starts with, as you said, the fact that you can guard him in a pinch with a guard, with a wing.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

You can put a body on him and not be punished for it in the way that, just to flash forward a little bit, let's say the Pacers bigs are punishing the hell out of every single Cavalier small that tries to guard them. Chet doesn't have that in his game yet, and it's a bit of a problem. And then even on the other side, where you're getting the defensive benefits, I love Chet as a rim protector.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Him roving in that style is not unrelated to Aaron Gordon getting seven offensive rebounds in this game. And ultimately, here's the thing. He can't do yet on defense what Hardenstein can, which is Hardenstein is bodying up Jokic, contesting the shot, and as soon as it goes up, spins around, sticks his ass into Jokic, boxing him out immediately from the jump to keep him off the offensive glass.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Chet hasn't he doesn't quite have that transition from hard contest into hard rebound just yet. And some of that is because he weighs like a buck 50 soaking wet. So like the physical stakes are just a little bit different. But he's he's going to have to grow up in those ways. He's going to have to grow up as a big if he's going to be a dominant postseason performer.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

None of it is shocking, right? It's not shocking. I will say this one does feel materially different from those last times that Giannis has sort of walked to the precipice a little bit, and as you said, ultimately walked back. Like, this feels, because of the lack of alternatives for the Bucs, like...

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

And you can see Jokic, I wouldn't say he's frazzled in this series, but he's clearly off balance. And in a way that the Thunder defense, this is what they do to you, is they get in your head, they make you think about every turn, every corner. And you can see Oklahoma City's defensive consciousness in terms of when Jokic does catch the ball at the elbow, whenever he starts to make his turn,

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

whenever he starts to make his pivot, they want him to see that second or third or fourth guy in his peripheral vision hovering in his space. I think just making him wait a fraction of a second, ultimately, before he has to remap the floor. That can be enough to buy you a little time.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

It can be enough to buy you just a little bit of Jokic's focus at a time when it's really crucial in the possession. I just don't think it's a coincidence that as you're taking away Jokic's momentum and his space and his ease of play, he's also shooting like 30-something percent on mid-range shots in this series. He just seems a little bit off his base.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

And you do need Chet on the floor for that stuff. You also need Alex Caruso on the floor for a lot of that stuff. Oh, my God. Who is absolutely everywhere on defense. And so here's the thing. If we're talking like a chain reaction to this game, Lou Dort shoots his way off the floor. Doesn't seem viable offensively, given the way things are going from beyond the arc.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

In comes Case and Wallace to defend that Jokic-Murray pick and roll. You can't switch that at all. Cason Wallace cannot be on Jokic at any point in the possession. And so he's chasing Murray, but if there's any disconnect, and there honestly often was, because Jokic is a big-ass screener, what would happen was Caruso is flying in from the weak side, off of usually Russell Westbrook,

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Giannis ringing the bell for the opening of the market a little bit of a willingness to at least explore these other possibilities. This isn't like fully Giannis and the Bucks mutually agreed apart ways, but it's maybe as close to something like that as we're going to get. And I think it is meaningful in that way, right?

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

And all of a sudden, he's bodying Nikola Jokic in the middle of the paint. He's throwing himself in front of this play in a way that I just don't think many wings in the world could possibly do. And yet here he is, turning up plays, not just making possessions, but saving possessions in progress, ultimately.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Saving the defensive shelf from completely falling apart, buying time for rotations, buying time for all this stuff to work the way it's supposed to. I don't know how he's putting... duct tape over so many holes at once because the Thunder gamble and they're a really aggressive defense like by design. But holy hell, is he plugging a lot of holes right now?

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Always pivotal. I think the rotation changes more on the Oklahoma City side. Denver's about maxed out. They're essentially running six guys. And you could even see the no fucking around time with David Adelman in this game in terms of trimming down the rotation so that the non-Jokic minutes are four starters and either Russell Westbrook or Peyton Watson.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

That's basically all they're playing in those moments and rightly so given the stakes and the margins of the series. For Oklahoma City, they're playing 10 deep. And I love the depth. I love the camaraderie. It might be time to turn out what's not working. Well, Joe is getting marginalized already, right? Well, this is kind of what I'm pointing out.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

This is an honest invitation to the rest of the league to say, let's talk about this. Let's think about what these best situations could be because Giannis is one of these players who has the same conundrum many superstars do, which is by the time you can get enough stuff together to trade for him, what will be left of your team?

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Isaiah Joe is an excellent shooter in theory, but he is entering Isaiah Joe Harris territory at this point, where it's just like...

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Sorry, Joe. Nothing is cashing. I'm sorry. Nothing is cashing. And he's not exactly out there for anything else. And I get why it's tempting in a game where nobody can really shoot. Let's ride with one of our best shooters and see how it goes. I just don't know that you can get away with that for even as long as the Thunder have.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

So I would not be surprised with Wiggins now playing better, with Case and Wallace showing up, with Lou Dort who's going to have better shooting games than certainly he did in Game 4 at some point, and Caruso, as we said, being so important to the rotation. You just have other options.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

We should say that, too, about Jokic. If this series is going to be we talked a lot about Oklahoma City strengths and what buttons they can press and how they can leverage things. If this series is going to be your MVP has to make stuff happen from the muck of the middle of the floor. That's a game that favors Denver and Nikola Jokic.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Like, Shea is obviously a great one-on-one creator, is going to make some hay in that situation. But you're right to point out, like, it's the variety of what Jokic can create from the ugliest possible situations. That's just totally distinct. And we've seen what this Thunder team is when they get out of flow. And it turns real stale really quickly.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

and what will be left of the championship contention that he's so clearly after. And we have to give our salute to Inchams' report. I'm just so glad that Thanasis' podcast, Thanalysis, could get the official Giannis quote for such an occasion. It's just an incredible get for Thanasis.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Well, to be fair, he was in fucking Bloomington. Like Miles Turner was he checking in the second quarter of this game in a way that I deeply appreciate.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

What happened? The only quote from Giannis in the story is from Thanasis' podcast, basically saying from Giannis, I want to compete for championships, et cetera, et cetera. It's pretty boilerplate stuff. But, you know, you got to go straight to the source for these things.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

And that's where him hitting tough-ass shots all season long kind of comes home to roost a little bit. Those shots are even tougher now against this Pacers defense. There's even less room to operate. And all of a sudden, Ty Jerome is quiet as a church mouse in a way where they not only need his contributions, they need his verve a little bit. this game in a way that was so stark.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

I don't know. They might well, but I mean, the Cavs are in such a bad way. Obviously, they're down 41 at halftime. They made eight shots in the entire first half. It was a putrid half for them.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Ultimately, what this game and this series has sort of reiterated for me, I echo everything you said about Tyrese Halliburton, who to me is always going to be more than when he has like 11 points in a game like this is always going to be creating and instilling more in the team and the flow and the style they play with than a box score could really tell you.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

If your team is not right, and the Cavs are not right, but if you're not healthy and focused and playing your best lineups, whatever the best, most balanced version of your team is, Indiana's momentum is so tough to match. And they will just be a wrecking ball. And if you do not slow them down, they will tear through whatever it is you think you're doing.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

And they're going to do that because they have all these offensive principles we talked about, because they do have so many good, varied players who are looking to share the ball, because they have sneakily... Three bigs who can shoot and pass and make some plays, you know, here and there, you know, like nip and tuck and actually do some things off the dribble if you really need them to.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

This is not a full media front. I think it may be a couple weeks old at this point.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

But also just on defense, this is a team that takes away so much of the low hanging fruit. And this is a shot making team and this is a shot making series. And it's very tempting, especially in a game like this, to look at the first half where India is hitting 67 percent of its threes. Cleveland shot 26 percent on threes and say that's a wild three point swing.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

not unlike we've seen from Boston, not unlike we've seen from other teams. I think all of that's true, but they're also indicators of where the wind is blowing in this series. And the wind is taking everything away from Cleveland's patent offense. And this was a team in the Cavs that was as buoyant a regular season team as we've seen in a long time.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Like they made Miami look like a G League team. Absolutely. And they did all that because they were so locked into their principles. And now these guys are looking around at each other and they don't know what to do. Like Indian has completely taken them out of their identity. And that that is power.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

And somehow not the worst post timeout play of this game for the Cavs who came out of a timeout and committed a five second violation trying to get the ball in.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

And Sam Merrill kind of briefly looked in his direction and thought, am I supposed to rotate over this and decided against it?

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

I mean, I agree with you. I think part of the issue is like as the offense, like basically is the game is getting away from the Cavs. It's so tempting to clutch at offense in particular. Not just your cute regular season rotation, but like, oh, we have to take one of our bigs off the floor. We have to get more shooting out there. We have to try to equalize the balance of this game all of a sudden.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

It got into desperation mode so quickly in game four that I can understand why some of the swerving is happening in the way it is, but... It didn't feel like the Cavs were very confident in what they were doing. It doesn't feel like they have a lot of resolve in even their rotation at this point. And frankly, again, you flash to the other side of the ball. Indiana's bench has been quite good.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

And like TJ McConnell against a zone is not a given proposition. Like TJ McConnell... as we like to say on group chat, McConnellizes every offense he touches. Like it becomes about him getting into the lane. It becomes, you know, kind of a, an uphill battle of him in space against all these bigs. And yet that stuff was working. Obi Toppin. I,

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

has just been incredible in this series and really incredible as a pacer. Like his development into just a fluid offensive force has given them something that the Cavs don't have in anyone coming off their bench.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

So yeah, if the options are trimming your rotation or potentially losing by this much or even more, I just don't see the downside other than the fact that Evan Mobley has a hurt ankle, Donovan Mitchell now has a hurt ankle, Darius Garland is out there limping around, fouling everything in sight because he can't actually move. And Jared Allen had a tough game.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Yeah.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

They were looking for him and all the bigs in transition. They were, Really, they were looking for ways, not unlike the Oklahoma City-Denver series, to beat the zone down the floor to get around that 3-2 Cavs zone with Mobley at the top, which was tough for them.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

And just the most predictable development in all of these playoffs are Rick Carlisle, coached team, not wetting the bed against the zone the way it did in Game 3 and coming back with every conceivable answer in order to attack that zone defense.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

How would you describe what happened? It was like a closed fist arm extension, but not a punch. At least it didn't seem like a punch.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Well, especially because there are two different questions for the regular season in the playoffs, as you said, which are officiated completely differently. But also, are we sure we want playoff physicality over 82 games when guys are already getting worn down with the regular schedule?

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

When there's already the level of injury that there is, there's just going to be a couple more fluky physical plays as a result of that. I'm okay with the playoffs being more physical. I think some of these games have gotten a little out of control as we talked about before. And more importantly, some of them are just refereed inconsistently.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Like you just need to let guys know what's going on and they'll kind of acclimate to it. But I agree there's a weird line to walk and really two parallel lines that they're trying to walk simultaneously.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

OK, can I see this on that for like I know there's no traction on shorting the season. It's never really gotten off the ground for a variety of reasons.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

If we're in like congressional wheeling and dealing mode and the time for expansion comes up and we have these big, juicy expansion fees coming for Vegas and Seattle, is there a way to like tether in an amendment to shorten the season in conjunction with expanding the league so that the financial offsets are a little more concrete?

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Yeah. I think the big variable for me is, can the Knicks triangulate enough offense out of OG, Mikael Bridges, and Josh Hart to make this thing actually feel viable? Like, they have scrapped their possessions, their defense has shown up, Jalen Brunson is gutting out, just... hard shot creation, hard bulk shot creation for many of these games.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

And especially at the end of them, seven points from OG over two games is, is just not enough. McHale sort of like floats in and out. And it feels like they kind of forget he's out there sometimes in terms of his offensive involvement. And Josh Hart is always going to be more of a wild card as far as like scoring goes.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

But if he's tilting more towards the like 15, he's averaging for the series versus the 10 and, that he had in game three. That's like a meaningful difference in a game like this. And so I'm just wondering, those guys are all giving, to be totally fair, amazing defensive play, next level hustle play. They're getting after it. They're doing a lot of their job.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

The problem is New York needs a little bit more than that. And I don't know that they can win a series with Brunson playing the way that he's had to play. They just need a little bit more from those three guys in particular.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Halliburton also closes out like crazy, as do all the Pacers. They want to run you off the line. They're such a great contest team, but Halliburton's flying out at guys in a way that makes an actual difference in games like that.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Yeah. I think it's, are we going to see Ant and the Wolves make actual progression in the way they break down Golden State's defense? Or are they just going to try to brute force it again, which is how they've had success in the series so far. I wouldn't say they've really cracked the code of an incredibly formidable defense, to be fair to the Wolves. They can probably win in either case.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

whether they make meaningful progress on that front or not. Like they can just overwhelm these guys at a certain point. You saw Ant especially just do that. And Julius Randall, who's been aces, especially since game one in this series, really, really pulling it together.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

It's my general vibe, more of a roaring 20s thing. It's an aces A1 page. I just think like Minnesota's mistakes are bigger and louder than basically any team that's as good as them. And you saw it in the fourth quarter with some of their turnovers. I would love to see a version of the Wolves that isn't just like hitting his head against the wall for 40 minutes straight.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

That does have some actual like growth in it as far as like the playmaking and execution against a high level defense goes. We saw some of that from Ant in the first round with a very specific and very different kind of problem. Golden State is a different beast. They're much more challenging. They're much more ferocious. They're flying around. They present a wider variety of defensive puzzles.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

I wouldn't say he's done great with it so far. And if anything, has kind of like had to really force his way through some of these games in terms of making himself like an impact creator and score against that defensive front. But I would love to see a little bit of growth.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Oh, it's booming. That whole neighborhood's been gentrified now. There's just pop-ups, mixed-use space everywhere. It's crazy.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

I think every game they need him to be huge. And even in that one, which, as you said, is kind of the ideal Jimmy Butler game under these circumstances. He was pressing in a way he doesn't really like to press. He's still coming up with all these random Jimmy Butler baskets, as he is ought to do. The finagler, the finagler, the finagler TM really, really coming through for you in that moment. But.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

He also ran out of steam down the stretch in that way. In like a one-on-one creation at the end of the fourth quarter sort of way. And look, as I was saying, Minnesota was running sloppy offense too. It's not like everything was perfect. This game was up for grabs. He just didn't quite have enough left 33 points in. And that's where they are. And that's why it looked...

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

I'm a little bit more of a Kuminga skeptic. I think Froyo is a good call because it's like, I think Kuminga Island is good for tourism, but not necessarily for living there. And so him popping up for an occasional 30-point game feels like a good way to have a good time. Him being an instructive, structural part of your offense may not be where you want to live every day of the year. And so...

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

I'll do credit to him for performing in the way that he did. Do I expect it to happen again? I don't necessarily.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Let's double down from here. But the problem is no one else on the Warriors can really do that. Really, their only strength is... in terms of that kind of scoring and how they're going to survive without step has to be collective. It has to be team play. It has to be a game where you look up and six different warriors have 14 points, including Jimmy kind of leading the charge.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

And some of that is like Draymond has to find a way to be an actual scoring presence in this series. Guys like pods have to find ways to be more consistent and certainly to present more of a threat in a way where they're driving offense. But Minnesota's defense has been really good again.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

not unlike Oklahoma City's about shrinking the gaps, about like really challenging the team dynamics and the flow of the way that Golden State wants to play.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

All off Randall, I think, too, as being like the trigger man, if I'm not mistaken. That was a great combination.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

He's been awesome. And I think in particular, as far as like small things that ultimately are kind of representative of big things, him not settling for the corner three and trying to leverage his eyes in exactly the way you described and driving, putting the ball on the floor, going hard to the basket.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

That decision and that skill set is what gets Draymond Green his sixth foul in this game and bumps him out. Like that doesn't happen. Frankly, the Lakers series does not unfold the way it did.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

If Jaden McDaniels is not only improved as a shooter in some of those games and hitting, but like a dynamic, fully functional, fluid offensive player in a way that I think would have been inconceivable to even look at the outline of who he was two years ago and anticipate this. This has been incredible growth.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

And I think he's done something that's really, really difficult to do, which is he was a guy who was playing smaller than his size in a lot of ways as a purely spot up, sometimes like flex transition option and has become a burly physical finish in the lane through contact kind of player. And you just really don't see that that much.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Not writing currently. Actually, my hand is currently broken. So like literally broken. What happened? Pick up basketball. I like it was a whole thing. We'll not be playing anytime soon for that reason. But so the writing is currently tabled, but we're potting like crazy. You know, we got group chat going on. We got some prestige TV stuff going on. We're covering everything.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

prestige TV these days. Last of us? What do we got? We got The Last of Us. We got Your Friends and Neighbors on Apple TV. We're figuring it out. We got Poker Face starting up. So there's some exciting stuff happening.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Quite good. It's like a Columbo case of the week, like shiny guest star every single episode kind of enterprise. It's a great time.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Art theft? That's what you're thinking?

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

For sure. I mean, many of those teams strike my fancy because Giannis with any team is going to be really exciting to see. There's two teams I have not seen mentioned much, and I'm curious to get your take on them, if they have any place in this conversation at all. One of them is a new entrant based on current events. If you're the Cleveland Cavaliers, do you have to have a talk about...

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Darius Garland about, and I say this knowing that this is invoking a curse that I don't want in my life, but do you have to have a conversation about Evan Mobley? Like if you're looking at the timeline of your team and saying, all right, we have Donovan Mitchell. We feel really good about what he's bringing to the table.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Ultimately this season, if it unravels in similar fashions we've seen over the last 24 hours, Do you have to have a conversation about that? And similarly, in reference to current events, does John Morant get you anywhere in this conversation if you're the Memphis Grizzlies? Is he appealing at all if you're Milwaukee?

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Yeah. It's probably not. I think I would like it to be a thing. If you can get a Giannis, Jaron Jackson, Desmond Bain core, and that's a feasible thing that's realistic, that would be unbelievable. But I think there's a reason you're not hearing these whispers out there literally anywhere, despite the fact that Memphis does have lots of stuff to trade.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

I think, you know, the Oklahoma City one, we're going to continue to revisit if that series spins out of control for the Thunder in any meaningful way. And I don't suspect that it will, but we're sitting kind of at the precipice of something else with them in this 2-2 series.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

And, you know, Sam Pressy is not a reactionary sort of executive by any stretch of the imagination, but like any information that you get shapes the way you think about your team and shapes the way you think about its future.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

And so I think the rest of how this Thunder Nuggets series evolves, not just do they win or do they lose, but how they win or how they lose, that stuff is going to be really important. And they have so much draft capital at their disposal.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

There's plausible Thunder deals that could be made that don't involve J-Dub or Chet somehow, with Isaiah Harden's contract in there as well to kind of make the mechanics of it work. And another team that owns picks from across the league. Completely. And I think that ultimately is such a huge part of this. You mentioned it too.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Are you divested enough in terms of the draft capital you have to make it so that the Bucs are not betting against Giannis? Because it's just not a smart bet historically. We know, we've seen in the regular season, his teams are going to pile up wins. And if you're sending him to a team to compete for a championship, it's going to be even worse.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

You gotta have the meeting. I think it's two things. One. Yes. I understand conceptually when your franchise player is as young as Wemby is the idea of passing up on someone like Cooper flag to pair with him for the next, I don't know, 20 years, potentially, if you can keep those guys together, seems a little crazy, but,

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

But I think Giannis is among the best case front court pairings for Webb and Yama in the sense that he is such a downhill force and ultimately plays with such will driving and going to the basket in a way that takes some of the pressure off of Wemby to do a lot of those things. And so you have potentially an amazing defensive pairing between the two.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

roving and covering from each other from all conceivable angles, opens up all sorts of schematic possibilities for how you want to run your defense, but ultimately gives you the sort of perimeter and downhill orientation that you were grasping at by trading for De'Aaron Fox in the first place, but really would hammer home in the most emphatic way possible by trading for Giannis.

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

And ultimately the point is like Victor Weminyama right now is a top 10-ish player in the league. And if you have a top 10-ish player in the league,

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

you're accelerating like right the time to move forward is now ultimately so I think they would have every reason in the world to at least get in the room think about it and figure out if some combination of a couple of hawks picks and swaps that they own plus their own stuff and I think they would probably have to hit some lottery luck plus Stefan Castle and Devin Vassell or whoever would be like necessary to get that deal done if that's a plausible thing that Milwaukee would be into uh

The Zach Lowe Show

Cavs on the Ropes, Thunder and Nuggets Trade Blows, and Potential Giannis Trades With Rob Mahoney

Let's say a shaky long-range jump shot.

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