Rob Mahoney
Appearances
Plain English with Derek Thompson
How Gen Z Sees the World
Also on Wednesdays, Rob Mahoney and I will be sort of diving deep into theories and listener questions. So you can watch that on the Ringer YouTube channel and also on the Spotify app.
Plain English with Derek Thompson
How AI Could Change the Future of Music
Also on Wednesdays, Rob Mahoney and I will be sort of diving deep into theories and listener questions. So you can watch that on the Ringer YouTube channel and also on the Spotify app.
Plain English with Derek Thompson
How AI Could Change the Future of Music
And then you let the AI keep massaging the melody, and this happens.
Plain English with Derek Thompson
How AI Could Change the Future of Music
Mark, what did we just hear?
Plain English with Derek Thompson
ABUNDANCE! With Ezra Klein
Also on Wednesdays, Rob Mahoney and I will be sort of diving deep into theories and listener questions. So you can watch that on the Ringer YouTube channel and also on the Spotify app.
Plain English with Derek Thompson
The End of Reading
Also on Wednesdays, Rob Mahoney and I will be sort of diving deep into theories and listener questions. So you can watch that on the Ringer YouTube channel and also on the Spotify app.
Plain English with Derek Thompson
Can a Vaccine Cure the World’s Deadliest Cancer?
Also on Wednesdays, Rob Mahoney and I will be sort of diving deep into theories and listener questions. So you can watch that on the Ringer YouTube channel and also on the Spotify app.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Are we sure anymore that that's where they're going to end up? I think it's striking looking at the rest of the bubble teams, all teams that are making moves right now. The Spurs, the Warriors.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
I think they might be, just because they're a little further behind. Because they're too far behind? I mean, too far behind with two games back sounds insane, but it's more that there are too many teams in front of them.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
I think it might be the Suns. I think it is. I think it might be the Suns.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Who do they have second?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Sacramento to me is the clear second. I feel like that's a little bit of Zach Levine disrespect. Is it? I think the Malik Monk, Zach Levine, Sabonis thing is going to be pretty decent. They brought in Jonas Valanciunas, which is not nothing.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
I would say about the same. I want to put this out there, not because I want it to happen, but because I fear it could happen. If the Dallas Mavericks do not make the playoffs, as a son of Dallas, I would like to be able to go home again. And I fear that the city would be razed to the fucking ground.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Keeping Kuminga out of this thing, I'm still shocked. Keeping Kuminga was amazing.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Unless Kaminga is traded the next hour. Which he might be. But even preserving him to potentially include him in another deal is important. And I think the Jimmy Wiggins comp, like Andrew Wiggins has had a perfectly fine season. I don't mean to diminish it, but Jimmy is a totally different level of creator. And most importantly, he is a go-to scorer, as we've discussed, but also...
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
a point trigger man for a lot of the Steph Curry off-ball stuff in a way that Wiggins is just not comfortable doing. And so now you have another person who can do that in addition to Draymond, in addition to Pajemski, if you have him in that role. You have someone who can actually make some plays for the way Golden State wants to play.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
He does not. But it's also not a coincidence that like every star leaves Miami kind of feeling like this. You know, like by the end, it's always ugly. There's no peaceful transitions of power.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
I think it's if you're over any apron at all, first or second, you can't sign a buyout guy for the mid-level.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Basically, if your contract is just over the non-taxpayer full mid-level, which his is like by a hair, like just barely, then you can't sign with any apron team as a buyout guy.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
It feels like they basically just said we don't want Dennis Schroeder. We'd rather have cap space? But it's telling when a team like the Heat who, say what you will about their personality management, they're pretty good talent evaluators. And they have just decided thanks but no thanks on Dennis Schroeder.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
I'm always worried about Miami. I'm always worried about them. Never not worried about the Heat. So right now, the Heat are three games out of the fourth seed in the East. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is their new rotation. They got Tyler Hero and Terry Rozier more or less running point. Scary Terry. Duncan Robinson. They brought in Davion Mitchell from the Raptors.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
I've wanted to see him on a decent team.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Andrew Wiggins, of course. Haywood Highsmith. Jaime Jaquez. Bam's been playing the four with Kalel Ware. Nikola Jovic.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Been quite good.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
And Kyle Anderson. Tell me that is not the most Miami Heat-ass team you've ever heard. It's Kyle Anderson's one of the most Miami Heat guys ever.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
This segment is sponsored by FanDuel.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Do you have anybody else? I think the Bucs are still interesting enough. And I think the Magic, if they ever get their shit together, are still interesting enough. They've got a lot to figure out offensively, though.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Can we talk about that?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
What does the apology sound like these days?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Fair.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
I mean, it's hard to be that inefficient, that passive aggressive, and that much just straight chilling all the time. Like it's really a rare skill.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
I'm a DeAndre Hunter skeptic. I like players who will, on occasion, pass. DeAndre Hunter doesn't really do that. And now, he's granted, while not passing, had the best season of his career by far. Has scored and shot in a way that he never has before. That's all well and good. But when I'm imagining the Cleveland freewheeling offense...
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
I don't know.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
So I'll put this like this wouldn't be a problem if what the Bucs weren't giving up is a player who is very important to their team and Chris Middleton who just can't do it at that level that they need him to do anymore.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
But what they needed was somebody who could do some Chris Middleton adjacent things. And Kyle Kuzma is closer to Torian Prince than he is to healthy Chris Middleton. That's a big problem for a trade like this.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
No, and not in trading Chris in his current form, but that's the quandary that the Bucks found themselves in.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
He's been an occasional entity.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Rob, you get the tiebreaker vote. It's not going to go well. Yeah. He's Kyle Kuzma. Wow. Here's the thing. When you approach a trade of this magnitude, and this is a huge trade for the Bucs. They've been waiting to either trade Chris Middleton or Brooke Lopez for the right move that came along. This is not the right move.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
He's also their, I want to say, the elder statesman of their rotation right now.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
I don't think he's an Orlando Magic player personally, but... Does Orlando know they're allowed to make trades?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
I want somebody who's going to move the ball, who knows how to play and flow. And that's not really what DeAndre Hunter does to the point.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
They probably should be a little bit more desperate in terms of getting some offense together.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Super important to their team.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
This year it has been, right? Like he's actually been like a good soldier within that context. And I take your point, but I think he's actually done a pretty good job of that exact thing this year.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
And like, those are literal facts, though.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Sure, sure.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Yeah, my hands are tied. My hands are tied. What can a guy do?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
That's the thing. Ultimately, what you're describing is in some way the way the league has been for a long time. It was just they were mostly trying to dodge the tax. Now, even if you are above the tax, there are more lines to dodge and harsher penalties.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
You say this like you're not talking up Julian Strother in the group chat.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
I mean, love the pickup for them. It is a buy low thing. And we need to acknowledge that Bogey is having the worst season of maybe his entire professional life, including pre-NBA, just has not had it.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Almost everybody who went to the Olympics has been a little step slow this season. It's been a thing for sure. So I would love to see him recapture some parts of his game surrounding him with high, like high leverage defensive personnel with the Clippers.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
That's a team that is so desperate for shot making, depending on what's going on with Harden, how he's being pressured that night, where Kawhi is in terms of his health on a day to day basis. They need what Bogdanovich can provide. And so if this is the cost, absolutely. Why not? Can I read you his stats? I'm a little worried to even hear them.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
I feel okay being a bogey apologist.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Never really happened. Never really got off the ground.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Bones? What about him? He is a player in the NBA, that's for sure. He's a player that made a lot more sense 30 years ago.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
He was the truth.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
He thought he was better than Jamal Murray. Yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
They're really gutting this thing. I guess, you know, it makes sense in the way that the future of their team is more Jalen Johnson, Zachary Richerche oriented, right? Like Richerche. I think there's something there that works. Do you have to do all of this housekeeping right now? I don't exactly know why it would need to happen right now.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
The spite piece. Yeah, you got to stick it to them.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Like you just never know.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
I genuinely don't. They're a team that wants to play a very loose, freewheeling, democratic style.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
That is not how Brandon Ingram plays basketball. If you did want a big forward to put next to Scottie Barnes, why did you trade the better one in Pascal Siakam? And the Siakam comparison is inevitable because they're giving up that Indiana pick. They're giving up Bruce Brown. They're giving up Kelly Olenek, who I want to say was involved tangentially in that deal in a follow-up with Utah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Caught half of it.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
And so now you traded Pascal Siakam for... an expiring Brandon Ingram. Oshaya Baji was in that deal. The pick that became Jacoby Walter. That's your Pascal Siakam haul. Why didn't you just keep Pascal Siakam if that's where you were going to end up?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Yeah. I think it'll probably be a shorter term deal.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
But are you telling like, I'm just seeing a future where they pay him upwards of $40 million a season. And to do what? He is a dynamic duo. I'm Scotty Barnes. He doesn't fit with Barnes. He's hurt all the time.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
He will occasionally talk himself into taking spot up threes.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Agbaje seems like he has a good head on his shoulders. He seems well-adjusted. He's having a good year.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
They have a lot to take personally, you know?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Shout out to our colleague Danny Chow who flagged, this is now four consecutive trade deadlines where the Raptors have traded a first for a guy who's about to be a free agent.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
I can't imagine. Doubtful.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
And he's got an extension. Two years, $20 million, which is a nice little turnaround for him.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
I think that's where you get into really tough places when you don't actually have the ideal version of the player anymore. And the Pelicans have not had the ideal version of Brandon Ingram for quite some time, mostly because of injury. But they held on to him too long in the same way that the Raptors held on to Siakam too long.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
You can see this chain of events of some of these teams that are feeling pinched where they don't move their guys when they need to move.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
What was it? I can't imagine a single reason why he might not want to run back that experience again. Probably a Draymond thing. I could imagine that being a potential holdup.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
No. I think him coming back to the Bay, if there ever was a full circle moment for that, it would require Kevin Durant to have a dramatic reimagining of who he is as a player and a person and the way he fits into the basketball universe. And I give Kevin Durant credit for this in a way. He has a very firm and fixed understanding of who he is.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
great guys get picked I also like Cleveland going for it a little bit you know pushing in in a way that there are certain non-negotiables on their roster like Darius Garland Jared Allen those guys are only going to play one position but otherwise you want a little lineup flexibility you want the ability to play you know Struis here or Dean Wade there or now DeAndre Hunter at the 3-4 like there's there's some options for Cleveland that I think are pretty appealing not just for a Celtics matchup but really just getting through the Eastern Conference alive
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
And it is not the guy who needs to go crawling back to the Warriors to win again. And that leads you to some places like Phoenix with this particular roster sometimes. But it didn't really fit with the KD that we know that he would want to do something like that.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
It felt like this could have been the first time in Kevin Durant's life where he didn't really get to pick. And maybe he just would have gotten moved somewhere. But then when he was so vocal and made it so clear he didn't want to play for Golden State, I think it changed the math a little bit.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Ultimately, I think the only way it would have worked for KD as a warrior again is if it was also a more elaborate LeBron going to Golden State thing. They would probably have to have... Just the old guys.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Well, I think you're probably bailed out on that just because the timelines were so different. Let's talk about these old guys some more.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Conspiracy Bill is here.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
In which direction? Like him towards Golden State?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Why not? They also ended up with, who did they get in the Butler deal? I want to say it was Lindy Waters and Josh Richardson, I want to say. Yeah, Josh Richardson. Maybe not players that have been important for them. Lindy Waters, I could see actually giving them some minutes and some stretch at times. I could see him giving them some decent minutes.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Do you think we should have third round picks? Should we have third round picks? Who are we drafting in the third round?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Do you think the Waz of 10 years ago would have made this take? Of course not. This is personal development.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Their part of it is the most confusing.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Another team that just like held on to Zach Levine for too long, waiting for the perfect deal to materialize. And it never did.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Better than this?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
They've made the playoffs one time in 20 years. 20 years. I get it. I get it. That's the thing. It's like, in theory, sure, from an asset standpoint, maybe there's an argument for a teardown. Sabonis has been probably a little too good, at least as a regular season player for that.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
This has been a big deadline for potentially dumb teams. I know we're not dipping too much into the Lakers part of this yet, but the Luka trade has made me feel young again. It is hearkening back to a time of our youth. where there just haven't been that many old-fashioned, absolute dog shit, like David Kahn-style trades.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
But the big man market has also dried up pretty fast on them.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
He's currently injured, I want to say. I think it's a Swiss thing.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
And Michael Malone was like quite definitive. Yeah, yeah. They're not going to trade Michael Porter.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
They are actually close. Like they feel like one even kind of minor role player addition could tick them up a couple percentage points in the title race.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Michael Jordan?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
But what a beautiful 23 games they were.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
When Jalen Johnson got hurt, they really have not been able to function without him.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
He might be day-to-day. He might be a minor.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
That would be the kick of the potential Kevin Durant trade would be that the Grizzlies spent all this time cultivating this very elaborate interwoven offense. And it's like, let's just get a ball to Kevin Durant.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Probably so.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
I mean, he is by far their most reliable creator this year. He's the only reason their defense has ever remotely worked, which it mostly does not. But he's the only thing kind of papering over most of their mistakes and the lack of ball pressure on the perimeter. There's a reason why when he's out, they look like a totally different team. They don't know how to work without him in Phoenix.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
I mean, this is a player over 25 for the Washington Wizards, which does not fit their timeline. Two adults. I guess that's true. They do have Chris Middleton now. What a weird roster. What a weird way for Marcus Smart's Grizzlies tenure to end. I can't believe that we got here.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Well, now that they have Marcus Smart, the Wizards have waived Reggie Jackson. Oh, Reggie. Shout out to Reggie Jackson's brief Wizards career.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Yeah, the one for 2025.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
I'm trying to figure out what Memphis is doing because the reporting from Shams around the Marcus Smart trade is that it's creating roster flexibility and Memphis just So there's some trade coming. Dumped Jake LaRavia who can actually play. Rotation guy. To the Sacramento Kings. Nice little pickup for them.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
They got LaRavia.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
So what are the Grizzlies going to do here?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
It won't be very exciting. Although, when the KD era in Phoenix appeared that it might be coming to a close, I was trying to reflect and say, okay, what have we done here? About two years as a Sun so far. Obviously hasn't had the playoff run this year. A 6-9 record in the playoffs with Phoenix. One playoff series win. Series win.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
But that's a team that they just dug themselves out of the absolute Nadira vibes in Sacramento. It got so weird and so bad for their season, and they finally get this momentum with Doug Christie. They finally have some things with their roster sorted out. I don't know that it's realistic to expect the Kings to just sit on a couple months of De'Aaron Fox pouting, if that's what it would have been.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
The meter is broken.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
This is a perverse take on the Julie Delpy before sunrise fake phone call.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
He's gone. He's gone. I think it is the signature hang-up. It's not just like, oh, could you trade him to Miami or whatnot. There would be a taker on the market.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Congratulations to them.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
I just have a very bad feeling we're going to look at the total math of that breaking up the one pick into three. And it's going to be three deals that are basically like this. Like basically use a first to dump Yusuf Nurkic's contract. To dump a dumb decision you made. Yeah, to try to rebate another bad decision. Yeah. The other ones, we'll see what happens.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Maybe they pull a rabbit out of their hat this summer. Maybe there's even time left for them to figure something out here. I just, I think that was a blunder in itself.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Part 1: NBA Trade Deadline Reactions With Rob Mahoney and Wosny Lambre
Who is the movie theater in this metaphor?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Luka Gets Traded to the Lakers… What??? | With Ryen Russillo and Rob Mahoney
For a lot of people in the U.S., using cannabis feels as normal as drinking a glass of wine or beer. But a dozen years after states started legalizing recreational cannabis, regulatory oversight is still a confusing patchwork. The drug is still illegal federally. And it's often difficult for consumers to distinguish between legal weed and cannabis produced by illegal growers and criminal gangs.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Luka Gets Traded to the Lakers… What??? | With Ryen Russillo and Rob Mahoney
Bo Kilmer studies marijuana markets for the Rand Corporation.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Luka Gets Traded to the Lakers… What??? | With Ryen Russillo and Rob Mahoney
Cannabis experts say they expect legal weed will eventually push out black market products. Brian Mann, NPR News.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
The Paul George thing is bordering on reanimated corpse at this point. And Jamal Murray has found some kind of life, some kind of burst. And I think most importantly, the edge and the aggressiveness in his game. That's always when Jamal is feeling whatever injuries he has at a given point or just a shaken confidence. He doesn't push in the way that the Nuggets absolutely need him to push.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
And to see that version of Jamal Murray back, that's a thrilling thing to see.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
I think this might be the 10, and that is somewhat confidence in the Kings, more so pessimism in the Suns on my part. Okay.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
I mean, mild confidence. I think they've got some stuff to work with. Like, I think they have a reasonable play-in level roster as currently constructed. I agree.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
And there's nothing wrong with that, but there's a reason we're not going to be talking about them in the vein that we're talking about Golden State, which is to say an actual threat potentially to do something with the talent that they have. And we were talking about this on group chat today, too.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
I don't know if it's the Jimmy Butler element specifically that makes Golden State feel like a wildcard in the same way that his Heat teams felt like a little bit of a wildcard. It's just hard to write off. And it's hard to write off looking at this Golden State rotation and thinking, OK, you know what, like when it really matters, the Pat Spencer minutes are going to evaporate.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
And the post minutes are going to evaporate if they have to. Like they're going to get what they need out of these supporting guys, but their best players are going to go the distance. And the question at that point will be how how hard did Steph and Draymond and Jimmy have to push to get them into the play in or to get them into the playoff? And will they have enough left from that point?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Nut crunch, I think is the expression you look for. Did I just invent the phrase gut crunch? The old gut crunch.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
The answer is probably J-Dub and that's a reasonable answer, but he also doesn't exactly play that way all the time. Like they are such a process oriented team where they're just going to move it and go through their system and trust in the shots that they get. And I think reasonable people can disagree as to whether those shots are ultimately what you need in now TM gut crunching time.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
I think gut crunch. Look, they clearly need a little bit more as evidenced by the fact that they can occasionally put up like a 14.4th quarter like they did against Minnesota today.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
that's not gonna do it even in a game like this where you have a bit of a deficit you're working back from to begin with it's an area where you hope over time j-dub grows into that responsibility chet holmgren who i think played his third game since come back from injury tonight he will grow into that responsibility over time hopefully he looks quite rusty understandably right now so he's gonna get better and better over the back part of the season but that's the wild card with them and i think if they don't do as well in the playoffs as they would have liked or as many of us would have anticipated
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
A lot of us are going to be wondering, was there a lever to pull there in terms of getting more of a spark plug score at the deadline? Not someone who has to be a part of your permanent like a fixture in Oklahoma City, a pillar of the community. But could you not get a guy who could get a bucket on demand when you maybe really needed it?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
He was balling out. He was scoring in bunches.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
I told you. But you're right. It's hard to look at a roster winning 80% of its games and being like, yeah, you should have done something. They're doing a lot every night to beat basically every opponent put in front of them.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
I would think. And look, the win over Golden State yesterday, massive, massive game. in terms of playing implications. But yeah, they need Davis back. And more importantly, they just need a big, a single able-bodied big who is not Omax Prosper on stilts. Like they just need somebody in that spot to do big man things. And credit to them for getting by the way they have.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Credit to them for winning tonight, not only under the circumstances, missing all these bigs, missing Anthony Davis, but Kyrie didn't play in this game either. But his spirit lived on in Dante Exum and they beat the Heat. And Dallas just kind of keeps on marching right now. It's been very impressive to see the way they've rallied.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Now this is going to be fun. Not fun. Wasn't very fun.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Sure.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Yeah, it's hard because there are the precursors. I don't think any of us were fully trusting Joel Embiid's health coming into the season. Certainly, Paul George has given us reason to be dubious about his long-term ability to stay on the court. But I would never have anticipated that basically every single thing that could go wrong has gone wrong.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Every bright spot that has emerged in the rotation, short of Gershon Yabusele, which I'm not trying to jinx him, wrap him in bubble wrap, protect Gershon at all costs, please. Every other bright spot in the rotation has been snuffed out by injury, by circumstance, like nothing is working.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
And that's hard to predict clearly, but also hard to wrap your mind around, like how so many things could go wrong at one time.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
I don't think it is. Yeah, I mean, we can kind of parse those things out because there is the step-slow thing as well, right? Like, you're not getting past Zaire Williams against the Nets. That's a problem, right? That's a problem in a game where Joel Embiid is not playing, Tyrese Maxey is not playing. This is your moment to do some of this, and you make one shot. And worse, you attempt seven.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Horrible, horrible game for Paul George. All of that said, I have found myself at many points in the season... being a bit of a Paul George apologist. And look, those days are very much behind me at this point. But the case for that apology, the defense of Paul George throughout most of the season has been a defense of the little things that he brings to the table, right?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
It's orienting the offense. It's being an adult on the court when they badly needed it. It's spacing the floor. It's keeping the ball moving. Good connecting stuff. but role player stuff. And at some point, if you're doing all the role player stuff and you're failing every time you're asked to be a star, we have to call you what you are. And it's a $50 million role player.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
And that's a very tough position for the Sixers to find themselves at the very outset of this deal.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
A sixer should know never to say that they're bored doing something like playing the five because this life as a sixer will be very interesting very quickly in ways that you do not want.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
I don't know if Chicago wants to keep winning or not because their roster would tell you that they don't. The public comments would tell you that they are attempting to. So I really have no idea what to make of any of that other than the fact that Look, the play-in crop in the East is an absolute joke.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
It is teams that are either too hurt to compete, don't have the resources to actually be good teams yet, or in Philly's case, a little of both. They just are not in a competitive place by any stretch of the imagination. Quinton Grimes should not be your best player. That is not a thing that should be happening. Justin Edwards should not be playing 30 minutes in a game.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
That's not where the Sixers ever anticipated this going, but it's the reality that they now have to navigate.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Portland is tough because they are winning themselves out of the tank race at the moment. Yeah, I love it. Their future is tough. And we should say Philly's future in terms of their first round pick, which they may or may not be able to actually keep, is looking dicier by the minute. They have to be very careful they don't accidentally lose that pick at this point.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
We should not see him again. tethered to this conversation. They should be actively looking at shutting Paul George down, shutting Embiid down, managing these injuries over the back part of the season. It's time to regroup. This is not going to resolve itself. And even if you could limp into the play-in and even limp into the playoffs, that is not a success for this version of this team.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Being an easy out in the first round is not success for the Sixers. So at this point, sear into the skid, lean into the failure, live to fight another day, frankly.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
I don't think they get New Orleans. I think they just get Milwaukee and the Knicks. All right.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Yeah, we need a visual aid. We need somebody to come up with a flow chart.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Atlanta? The Atlanta ones are bad. Because it dramatically changes how they navigate their roster, what they're doing for the foreseeable future. On the one hand, I think it can be silly sometimes when teams like the Bulls, who were so protected they were probably going to keep their own pick anyway, go out of their way to trade to get their own pick back. It can be silly. Yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
But there is so much more freedom and flexibility as a franchise when you do own your own picks. Because the second they're out the door, the second you lose control of when you start the clock and when you start to rebuild and when you start to reboot.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
And that's how you get into these weird lost seasons where you're sort of languishing either in the middle of the standings or just outside the play-in, accomplishing basically nothing, but also losing lots of games and not getting any draft capital to result from it. The Atlanta ones feel really, really rough right now.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
They'll have three. They'll have their own.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
And if you're OKC, I think you would also have to really think about it because what the Thunder need more than anything are cost-controlled players, really good players on cost-controlled salaries. Their roster is about to get very, very expensive very, very quickly. If you could have four cost-control years of Cooper flag as you are contending with the rest of this roster...
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
I'm hesitant to say this because we haven't seen Cooper Flagg play in the NBA yet. If he is as good as advertised, he might be the single most attractive piece to the Thunder for exactly that reason.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Good ball skills. Incredibly competitive.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Checks out.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Here's the thing, though. If that pick does convey and OKC gets Philly's pick, six teams will have 20 picks in the first round between them. OKC, one of them. Brooklyn will have three picks. The Spurs, the Jazz, the Magic, the Wizards will all have two picks. that is an incredible consolidation of draft capital.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
And I don't know who ends up keeping a lot of those picks and who ends up moving them on because they're clearly valuable for all of these cost-controlled reasons we've just talked about.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
But to just help you visualize at home as you're listening to us list off all of these swaps and protections and picks that may convey, basically every single pick from 18 to 30 is going to go to a different team, except for Indiana's pick and Boston's pick. That's it. Every other pick is probably going to change hands. And that's insane.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Doing the touchscreen. We have to raise pick-swap literacy around the country at this point because this is becoming an epidemic.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
I think go for it. Honestly, I think go for it. I... It's always tough in these positions, and yes, I understand the long-term arguments, but I'm with you that I am moved by the enthusiasm of the team. I am moved by the amount of backbone they've been playing with lately, and ultimately, particularly how good they've been on defense. This is...
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
A team that's like playing a pretty deep rotation, really high energy style, forcing a lot of turnovers. They can't score for shit even now, but they get a lot of stops and they play with a lot of effort. And ultimately, here's the thing. I say you encourage the guys to go for it and they ultimately will probably lose a lot of games anyway, but you didn't pull the rug out from under them.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
I think that's where you start to lose credibility with the players on your team is when you start actively sabotaging their efforts to win just for the sake of the lottery. But if there's a way to let them run themselves out, and look, if you look at the teams that they've beaten at this recent stretch of games where they've been so successful, it's not exactly a murderous row.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
They will lose games against better teams eventually, but let them find their spine. Let them find their style and ultimately what can be successful for them. And let Nick Claxton wake up a little bit because you had a bit of a slow start to the season. These are meaningful developments for a team like Brooklyn.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
There's not really another option.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
I don't care. I think LaMelo is better than that. I think he's better than that. Was that a defensive LaMelo ball? Look, I'm willing to go out on that particular limb.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
I think LaMelo is, look, he is on another planet in terms of some of the things he chooses to do, but has a facility with the game that not many guys have, and ultimately is basically the only reason the Hornets have been anything close to solving at any point in this season. So he doesn't have a lot to work with when he's out there.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Bigger concern for me, in addition to all of his habits and kind of the judgments he makes on the court, Clearly, just like that cursed ankles, tough injury history. If he's never going to be consistently healthy, how is he going to consistently grow as a creator? And that's a problem for a player like him.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Would I want to play with anyone under the age of 25? I think the answer is probably no. Like there is a stylistic difference between us.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
See, I think he and LaMelo could run beautifully together. Oh, I don't know. Anyway, they're in position to get him.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
OK, can I suggest what the thing is that you might be seeing? Yeah, that's it. I would say two things, maybe. Golden State actually shooting free throws. Great. Jimmy Butler helps with that. Two, something very exotic for the Warriors, attempting to score around the basket and sometimes doing so successfully. They blow a lot of layups.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
I get from that 10,000 foot perspective why Reinsdorf is the guy who comes up. I don't want to give Arturis Karnishevich too much cover here because I feel like Nico Harrison has done him an incredible favor. Patrick Dumont has done him an incredible favor, taking a lot of the airspace of the NBA right now. And I think it just kind of slid under the radar that after the deadline,
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Cornish was went up there, had his press conference and explained that there are three different ways to build the championship team. You can have two stars on it. You can have three stars on it, or you can have nine or 10 very good players.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
First of all, that has literally never happened before. No team has won a championship with nine or 10 very good players. Not a thing.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
I don't know what threshold he's talking about, but... What's better than very good? Like, great? Well, let's talk about that. If it is... Even if that were true, even if that were what the Bulls are trying to do, how many players on their current roster are very good or even, like, pretty good?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
I think he's good. He's probably the closest. Theoretical Alonzo Ball might be the closest. We hope Matas Muzelas can be that. Vooch some nights?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Yeah, there are no A minus players on this roster. I'm not even sure. This is a roster that is scraping for solid B, B minus talent right now. And to the extent that it's there, it's probably years away from developing.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
So you would take Charlotte's? You would take Philly's?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
What a day for the Wizards. You know, they had to win something eventually. They won your heart, at least relative to the Chicago Bulls. Congratulations to the Washington Wizards.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
That is the darkest sentence that I've ever heard someone say. And it might be true. I think it's true. I think it's true.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
I'll do credit to Jordan Poole who's had an exceedingly normal NBA season. And for him, for a guy that talented, that's a huge step forward.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
They have a lot of guys who clam up a little bit around the basket or can get stifled out with length. They obviously play really small. But having Jimmy as any kind of presence inside, even if he's also missing some layups now and again, just as a cutter, as a driver, as a transition force, It's a nice counterbalance to everything else that the Warriors have going on offensively.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
It's not as loud or as dramatic as what's going on in Philly. And so, yeah, they get the lead in terms of the dumpster fire power rankings here. It's so disappointing to see the Suns in such disarray, quietly sucking all this year and seeing none of the primary stakeholders of that team do a single thing to fix it.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
And this isn't ultimately like a second apron problem or a no trade clause problem. Like those are obstructions, right? In terms of Phoenix making its roster better. They're not obstructions for anyone on this team playing into the ball on defense. They're not obstructions for anyone on this team fighting for a rebound.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
They're not obstructions, most crucially, defining some semblance of offensive flow for a super talented team on paper. Like... I know there is a worse than the sum of its parts thing happening here because basically none of the parts complement each other at all. It's just a lot of guys in their individual lanes not making each other better.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
And that is a really tough watch for people like us at this stage in the season. I just don't get the sense that anyone involved in it particularly is participating in that offense either or participating in this season. And so it's so disjointed. It's so unpleasant. I really dislike where the Phoenix Suns find themselves. And I don't wish this on any of them. this is just who they've been.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
He would play. Who's he playing over? They need somebody like him.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Yes. I feel fine giving Bradley Beal Isaiah Joe's minutes.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Maybe sixth on the right roster.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
First guy off the bench.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
I mean, this is kind of the Torrey Craig corollary, because didn't he just kind of crack into Boston's rotation a little bit? Intense man. Yeah. Royce O'Neal can do a lot of Torrey Craig things. I would say he's slightly better than Torrey Craig on balance. Grayson Allen, very much an issue of how much you need his shooting. And frankly, this season, whether his shot is on or not.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Lately, it's been looking a lot better. Start of the season was not there. If he's streaky, he's not very viable. So that's a huge problem in terms of high-level competition.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Yeah, I think he can get minutes.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
That's even worse than this, frankly. That's the hard thing about interrogating Kevin Durant trades is the packages feel more depressing. And I think the packages also force you to confront... what you as an organization in the Phoenix Suns have done with Devin Booker's career.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
A player who had to come into his own, who took his time, who grew as a playmaker, who grew as a creator, who, to be totally fair, is not having an amazing season by his standards, but a good enough one, a good enough Devin Booker season. And if you use that whole period of time, and you have one trip to the finals in a somewhat weird Western Conference field, and that's it?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
That's the primary feather in the cap of the Devin Booker era? That's really sad, honestly, for a star who's had this kind of long-lasting relationship with the team. You would hope that a player like that would be rewarded with better.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
They have the toughest remaining strength of schedule of any team in the league from this point. I don't... They're not going to make it.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
I'm not sure they need to do that. I think they're going to be, again, perfectly fine coasting out, losing some of these games. Now, if the Fox thing catches on in such a huge way where it's unavoidable, then yeah, maybe you have that discussion. But part of trading for De'Aaron Fox is accelerating at least a little bit.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
And I think ultimately their position is not so much tethered to their own pick, right? It's tethered to the other draft capital that they have. It's tethered to the guys they already have on roster. So I don't think they necessarily need to.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
I think he's more 6'7", 6'8".
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
I think we covered a lot of it. We covered every mid to terrible team in the Eastern Conference, it feels like. So we really gave the people what they want today.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
always walton goggins but carrie coon never upset to see carrie coon on the screen and you haven't watched the first one yet not a bit you know i'm really looking forward to it i'm really juiced from my personal trip to spiritual thailand for this season so that's the thing you get to go on an actual vacation with the cast you just live back heresy through your tv from your lips to daniel x ears let's lock it in let's get that expense report filed i'm ready to go
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Lots of stuff. Love a lagoon.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Thanks, Bill.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
And yet they are a high IQ team. Like Steve Kerr is about to have an aneurysm at any given moment in these games. And you get it. Like some of the passes Draymond throws for being a genius level playmaker are absolutely baffling, indefensible decision making at times. And yet they get away with it because they have these hot shooting stretches.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Their defense is obviously still pretty rock solid overall. And I think we'll only get better with Jimmy. But ultimately, I'm totally with you as far as the post-up elements of Jimmy's game. He's so intuitive in terms of the way he moves. That has fit in Golden State really seamlessly. And he also, just in staggering him and Steph a little bit, it gives the Warriors something to do.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
And they were really lacking that when Steph was off the floor. It's like, what do we run? I guess Brandon Pajemski is going to dribble for 18 seconds. There was way too much of that happening. And Jimmy Butler, if nothing else, orients them to, OK, this is a this is an actual first option, even if he's not pounding the air out of the ball.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Yeah. Even in the games, Jimmy Butler is one of the best contested rebounders in the league in terms of just the overall effort he puts in and how he goes after it, even against bigs.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
And if we're going to talk about how Golden State makes a run or how they hold it together, how they challenge some of these other elite Western Conference teams, a big part of that is Jimmy Butler makes the version of small ball they play make a lot more sense. Moses Moody has been a thing for a while now, but the Moses Moody minutes make even more sense when you put in with Jimmy Butler.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Kuminga is going to be a little different just because they are a little bit duplicative. They're going to be a little trickier to play together, especially if Draymond is also on the floor. It can jam up a little bit too much. And I'm curious to see what Kerr does with that, how he tries to separate those guys, if at all, in the rotation, because they're going to have to play a lot.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
It's like the PER of box score stats, right? It gives you a general indication that something is up.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
I suspect having Jimmy will help with some of that. And just from an overall workload perspective, Jimmy and Kuminga coming back will lift some of what is on Steph right now. Ultimately, though, I think that is who he is at this point in his career. I don't think he's going to have those singular scoring outbursts all the time.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
But the good news for Golden State, I don't think the rest of the league has entirely caught up to that. I don't think they will catch up to that because history tells us they don't with legends. You put Steph Curry on the floor, someone sees him, they are going to freak out.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
And that's why virtually regardless of how many points Steph actually scores, he has a massive, massive on-court impact in terms of the offensive production. He is not at a Jokic level because Jokic is really in a class unto himself there. but with Shea, right?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Like with the other really high level offensive operators in terms of the difference of having him on the court, even when he's not hitting consistently, even when he's not going for 35 or 40 points, he just scares the hell out of people. I think that part will always be true, even if Steph is 45 rolling out there.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
And by volume, they've just been in a lot of close games, which that in itself, as you're saying, is taxing because it forces Steph to play more minutes to even get to that point.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
I still give Memphis a little credit in that conversation. I think we'll we clearly have to wait and see what the Lakers are capable of.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
But at this point, Denver's got the inside track and teams are going to have to figure out not just how to outflank them, but how to beat them specifically if that matchup comes on board, which is I would say the toughest single matchup available to anyone is what do you do with Nikola Jokic right now? Because we're seeing, Minnesota case in point tonight, OKC is a vaunted, unbelievable defense.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
But Minnesota has some inroads there to score against a team like that. Nas Reid is clearly a huge part of that formula. Granted, they're not playing with their usual team. Julius Randle, Rudy Gobert, Mike Conley, Dante DiVincenzo.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Absolutely. They didn't have their normal set of players, but they found things that could work against the Thunder defense for as wonderful as it is. I don't know that there's those answers for many teams about Nikola Jokic. There's just not a lot of conceptual stuff you can throw at him that's going to work. That's not to say you can't leverage Jokic.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
The occasional off night from Jamal Murray, elements of Russell Westbrook's game, parts of the back end of the rotation, Michael Porter, maybe not swinging the ball as fast as the Nuggets might like him to sometimes. Like there's buttons to press. The Nuggets are not unbeatable, but they look really tough right now.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
And they look like a really tough matchup specifically for the rest of this Western Conference field.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney
Priscilla and I did that live show in Denver.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
I think the defense, it does come and go. And I think the rim protection thing is really instructive here because they don't have... By not having a traditional defensive anchor, the only way they play elite defense is flying around, playing with incredible effort and focus all the time. And so it's not a huge surprise that they can't do that every single game.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
It's not a huge surprise they can't chain it together for five games at a time sometimes. It's just going to be... a little bit more of a peaks and valleys kind of experience for them on that end. I think ultimately you're banking on the playmaking. And this is where I can kind of see the logic in the segmenting the game that you're talking about.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
It's like if you have two of the most creative people in the sport, the idea of, oh, I'm going to put these very orderly boxes in place and I'm going to trust these geniuses to navigate it. That's a pretty good premise as far as I'm concerned.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
No, definitely not.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
Well, they certainly don't seem to care about the standings too much.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
If you are any basketball team, you don't want to see OKC until round three or the NBA finals. Those are the only options that you would prefer. But as far as the chicanery goes, that's a real fine line you're trying to walk. To basically get to six and lock in at six is the ideal spot if you're going to be in the four, five, six range.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
Because four and five, yeah, you're going to be potentially roadkill for the Thunder, who look just increasingly incredible, to be honest with you. And I want no part of that team.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
Oh, you're sealed up.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
Okay.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
That's a team with, I would say, three all-defense caliber players on its roster.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
Well, the Clippers are just, the Clippers are no fun to play against for anybody. And frankly, when Kawhi Leonard plays, they just do not lose. Uh, except I think they lost randomly to the Pelicans one time. We don't have to talk about that. Other than that, really just have turned into an offensive buzzsaw in a way that should be terrifying because they were already such a great defense.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
The Wolves, I am really becoming a believer. Whoa, make the case. This was a team that I was really down on come December or so. I just thought the energy with the team was so off. I thought the defense was so underwhelming. I didn't really see the vision in the Randall thing at all. And then all of a sudden, everything's starting to click. Everyone who was hurt is suddenly back and playing well.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
The new additions, both Randall and DiVincenzo in particular, are both really hitting at this point. Randall's playing, I think, some of the best basketball of his career, frankly. I don't know how to feel about the kind of person who is telling you and many people on a podcast they should believe in Julius Randall, playoff performer. That's a big ask of anybody.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
But I find myself, as we're kind of charting the Western Conference landscape, and I'm looking at teams like Golden State and the Lakers, teams that could win a round, but maybe not two or three. I'm seeing teams like Houston that I think can win with the right matchup, but otherwise might be out on their luck if they pull the wrong one.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
Teams like Denver that, frankly, not only do they not care about seeding, they don't seem to be terribly interested in playing defense in a lot of games. And I expect the playoffs will be different, but even still, the personnel is what it is. And I just find my way back to the Wolves. And I'm thinking they have the high-end talent. They have the depth. They have the defense. They have the bodies.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
They have versatility to actually roll with the punches of a playoff series. And frankly, we've seen all this stuff in action in a slightly different form with Cat versus Randall and, you know, no DiVincenzo. I just, I really like what they're putting together. And I think they're playing great basketball right now.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
Nor should you, if we're all being honest.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
He's like falling on his own rake over and over.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
I think the exception to that would be if Denver slides and ends up somehow in the play-in, which is not incomprehensible. These teams are really bunched up.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
They'd have to drop a couple spots. I think the Rockets could give the Nuggets a real run. I think that's a tough matchup for them. And I say this knowing... The Rockets just blew a game against Denver with no Nikola Jokic. I'm acknowledging it. It happened. I don't think it's representative of the matchup.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
I think if you give these perimeter demons a chance to make Jamal Murray's life a living hell for seven games, I think they will do it. I think they have enough size to really gum things up. I think they're so physical. And that's really the question with Houston is what teams would really be bothered by high-end athleticism and high-end physicality?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
And I think Denver might be one of those teams, despite the fact that their lineups are quite big themselves.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
And then you have the Russ turnovers working in your favor. You know, you got some free opportunities on the board.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
Are we still doing the last day of the season? All the games are basically happening at the same time to prevent this sort of chicanery? Is that still going on?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
I mean, all you're really doing is forcing an assistant coach to sit on the back row with an iPad. They're still going to be watching.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
Well, they're healthy for now.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
I mean, look, he's Draymond Green. He deserves consideration. Probably deserves a place on the ballot at the end of the day. I'm more of an Evan Mobley voter at this point. Wow. just the utility of what he brings to that defense, how many people he's constantly bailing out on every defensive possession. The flexibility between the 4-5 is not dissimilar from Draymond.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
I just think he is an absolute monster on that. And Draymond, if Draymond had been playing defensively the way he's played the last, I would say, 15 to 20 games all season, we're having a very different conversation. I don't think the first part of the season, especially the first half, he was quite at this peak elite level. This is still really high-level defensive play.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
I'm not disparaging Draymond Green. He's incredible, particularly on that end of the court. I just don't think he's put together the total body of work for it.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
do you take any responsibility for the perimeter gun shyness after the Marcus Smart debacle? Do you think that's what radicalized all of us?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
There's like 50 people deserving of all defense consideration, and I don't feel great about any of them necessarily as the definitive defensive player of the year. You're right. Without Wemby, there is a vacuum. It's unavoidable.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
I feel like the Thunder... Like, Shea, I agree, is the favorite to win MVP. Probably will win MVP. Otherwise, they suffer from that problem where their team is so good and there's credit going in so many different directions that Mark Dagnall probably isn't going to get the credit he deserves. Lou Dort probably isn't going to get the credit he deserves.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
They have so many good players who are probably going to be under the threshold for games played and so they won't get consideration for various teams and things, but... holy shit, like there's so many places to assign credit for what OKC has done.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
And I think if you want to talk about the reason why they won as many games as they did, it's the professionalism and the intensity they play with every single fucking game. And that either comes from Mark Dagnall or it comes from Shea or both. And if you want to credit either of those guys for that, I think it's more than deserved.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
They did his name with Jalen Williams. He was their center for a fucking month.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
It is going to be a religious experience. Also, first of all, thank you for inviting me on now the third White Lotus Splinter Pod. We've had every permutation of hosts possible. This is the only one left. This is the only one left for the finale.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
Uh, this game was sick, really enjoyed it. Everybody, everybody involved has still got it to the extent that they needed to prove that they still got it. And I mean, uh, the game of Brandon Pajemski's life, one of the games of Austin Reeves's life. I was, this game was weird, but I think representative of both teams and that it was half absolute slog.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
I will say, I don't know if this is great PR and marketing by them, but all the little quotes that are coming out from the cast hinting at the ominous results of the finale had me a little spooked. And again, maybe I'm just being played. I think... The body count or the philosophical fallout is going to be pretty significant. I don't quite know which one yet.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
Did you see any monkeys holding a gun?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
Thank you.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
Thank you.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
Like the, the middle part of this game I thought was really slow and the rhythm of the game felt really disjointed. And yet the shot making was at such a high level. And overall, like the veteran execution was at such a high level by both teams and spots by obviously by the Warriors in greater numbers.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
Thank you.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
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The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
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The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
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The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
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The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
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The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
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The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
Yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
1972.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
that's at least changing what the Warriors have to do a little bit now they're like oh shit all right I guess we've got to play Looney for a couple minutes here I think small ball against small ball I just like the Warriors chances more I think so too they're just I mean they're better practiced at it Jimmy Butler included like he was playing this way in Miami for a long time too in stretches uh especially as like a small ball four but when you think about the Mark Williams element or the Jackson Hayes shadow element however you want to define it uh
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
they're guarding Steph so aggressively that he's having to cut and he's having to drive against that kind of top-locking. And so if you have a rim protector there, all those Steph drives don't look so cute anymore.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
Now, that's a really complicated premise to have to navigate for Curry, especially when he has a pelvic contusion or whatever it was he's coming back from, not words I like in conjunction with one another. But he played really well and he was able to play really well because ultimately the Lakers are, they are small ball.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
They also have a certain kind of beef in size in terms of a lot of small forward and power forward shaped guys. But I just have constant questions as to whether that size is real or not. Is it tangible in a way that's going to impact games? Because they are not, by rule, like an offensive rebounding juggernaut. They are not a team that really pushes people around.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
They can create advantages offensively with that size. But if they're not leveraging on a defense, how are they going to survive against some of these higher leverage matchups?
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
Yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
It's very generous of you. And if you're going to be generous towards somebody, make it the all-time legends who are in our midst. So I can't really argue with it too much. For me, it's more like if you are LeBron, if you are Steph, And I see you sliding towards a team that feels not representative of who you are for your career. Maybe I give it like another look.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
It's like, OK, that doesn't feel quite right. Let's make sure I'm picking Jaron Jackson Jr. over LeBron James. And I feel OK about that. No disrespect to Jaron Jackson Jr. is amazing, but he's not LeBron. So, yeah, they do deserve that, if nothing else, a little courtesy.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
Oh, yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
I think this was the best that he and Butler in particular have played together. And they haven't had, it's like nine or 10 games maybe that they've been able to actually be out there at the same time. And yeah, it's one of those things where Butler is such like an intuitive player in terms of the flow of the game. You put him out there with Draymond and Steph, like he gets how to move.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
He gets how to connect and make the right passes and find the flow. I would not say Jonathan Kuminga is a terribly intuitive player. It took him like three years to figure out how to play with Steph Curry. The idea that he's just going to jump in and now Jimmy Butler, another kind of like iffy spacer, a funky player to have to find your way with. Like Jimmy Butler makes spacers and bigs better.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
Yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
Does he make players like him better traditionally? It's a little bit more of a mixed bag. And so the data with them two on the floor coming into this game was mostly terrible. Like those minutes just had not worked. this felt like some real signs of life for a combination that if the Warriors are going to make any kind of run, actually does need to work.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
I think what was funny about what you said about the Lakers of like, if they may not have enough to string together consecutive series with their defense, I feel the exact opposite way about the Warriors, where it's like they need to prove they can string it together offensively to not just beat anyone in a series, but to beat four anyones in a row. That's a lot to ask.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
Well, sometimes that works out. There have been parts of the season where Brandon Pajemski thought he was the player Austin Reeves is right now. And that's now paying off. He's now figuring out his way into the lineup. And it's really working, this new starting group for Golden State.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
I think it's just stringing it all together. And I think the toll it takes on anybody to play small, right? And you see this with the Lakers too. I'm still trying to figure out, are the Lakers the elite defense that they were for like the first month after the Luka trade or the garbage defense we've seen over the last month or so? Yeah.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
Golden State isn't that polar, but there are going to be matchups that are tough for them. There's going to be matchups that just require a ton of Draymond Green in particular, a ton of Jimmy Butler in particular. And then you're playing multiple small guards in a lot of these looks. And so all of a sudden, the toll of that for three series in a row, I think might just be a little bit too much.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
And so it's the kind of thing where I think they can beat, they can upset anyone in the first round. I think they have that in them. But chaining those series together against really formidable Western Conference opponents where everyone's kind of in the same relative class, I think that might just be a lot.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
I thought we were trying to overreact.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
For sure. I just like work in progress. Luca though is still pretty damn good. Yeah. He's still creating opportunities that basically no other players on the floor can create. I thought he did a good job of at least of,
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
not stopping short on drives and especially in transition where he can tend to slow things down and want to reset the offense and he was going all the way to the rim whether to set himself up whether to set up threes whether to set up lobs you know really like continuing to push himself a little bit and anytime that he and lebron and reeves get involved in the same like triangulated action it's fucking terrifying like you can see the bones of something that is really really scary
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
It's just, to your point, not there every single play with Luka. The burst isn't there every single play. The touch kind of comes and goes depending on the game, especially if he's hitting the step-back threes. That's always been a huge variable for him. But he's still good enough.
The Bill Simmons Podcast
Lakers-Warriors Takeaways, Wilt Chamberlain, 'White Lotus,' and Half-Baked Ideas With Rob Mahoney and Kevin Wildes
And ultimately, it's not a real concern for the Lakers relative to the fact that they have this completely turned-over team that is not going to make sense until they have a chance to go into an offseason and build a Luka-style roster around him.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
That's the thing. Pop down to the restaurant for a quick bite. Maybe that's an argument against the a la carte distinction is like he's coming here to eat at the restaurant as a non guest. I've never heard of that at like an all inclusive situation.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I mean, I think it's very notable for one that we don't really talk about Victoria in this way, because she is almost consciously running from whatever sense of identity she has other than mother and part of this family and advice giver as far as like, don't trust anyone you're not related to. And also everyone is trying to scam you at all times.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Like her identity feels a little bit more muddled in a way that makes sense for that character. everyone else is mostly reaching for something, grasping for something. Tim clearly defines a lot of who he is based on this kind of provider mentality as a very clear patriarch figure. He enjoys being the guy who comes into the room, says, y'all have a good day.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I'm going this way while you all do your treatments. Job done here. He seems to drive a lot of satisfaction.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
He made the plan vis-a-vis Pam, and now everyone gets to be happy and do their thing.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
And yeah, clearly Saxon wants to be his dad so bad, or at least wants daddy's approval so bad to the point that he'll basically say anything to agree with him across the table. That's fine. We kind of know who that character is, but it's telling that Lachlan is the battleground for so many of these other characters. Like you can tell from his interactions with Piper that
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
She wants him to be spiritual in the way that she is like she wants him to have these gratifying meditative experiences or praying experiences like when he's in the float tank. And he's clearly not there. And I find what's so interesting about Lachlan is that when he's with Saxon, he has more Piper energy in some ways. And when he's with Piper, he has more Saxon energy in a lot of ways.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
And you feel that tug between them.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
being handed down regionally and generationally um i have i have a valley girl california accent so i i can't speak to that but uh monkey shoot out at gmail.com yeah i think they do mute over time my parents certainly have much more of a twang than i do and for me it comes out more on the y'alls it comes out more with like specific words and things like that uh but i think that's pretty natural especially for kids who have like if you've been to
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
So that's what the whole pod's about today, right? We're just going to do an immersive reading exercise together.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Depending on where you grew up, if you're growing up in like more urban versus rural areas where those accents might be like a little more hardened, if you're going away for school versus staying close by for school, like all those things are variables. But I think it's pretty natural for kids to grow up with a much less significant version of the same accent, if not lose it altogether.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
A little bit. There's that kind of echoing effect that happens. Absolutely. But ultimately, I think it just doesn't come out that much at all.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I guess ostensibly we are covering White Lotus season three, episode two. That is a thing that we are technically here to do.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
From a certain point of view, Joe.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I still think he's here for professional reasons.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I don't think this is personal vengeance. I think a lot of that backstory is more my read on it to this point is more to illustrate Rick as sort of this empty vessel, this person who is devoid of identity, who has tried to take away every shred of identity that he ever thought he had. For maybe these reasons he lays out, which is that his mom overdosed and his dad was murdered.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I also don't know if we're supposed to take those things at 100 percent face value or not, or if that's just the guy who does not want to be in this meditative session, not wanting to talk.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Be a human being. Be more than nothing, really.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Yes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Hitman feels the most likely, but it also could be he just needs to meet this man for some sort of clandestine reason. It could be a delivery. It could be information. I don't know exactly.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I mean, look, I think Walton Goggins is a great hang. I think Hollinger would be so lucky to chase him down to Bangkok.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I love him as a philosopher and I'm glad we get this sequence with Amrita because frankly I don't think like Rick thinks so little of Chelsea in certain ways that he would never have this kind of conversation with her. I don't think about the like the the what he contains in his soul is not really what their relationship is at this stage. Maybe someday it will be.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
He does not bear to her in that very specific way. And look, I think they are an incredible pair. And I think there's a push and pull on a chemical level that makes a lot of sense. And I think you nailed it in that... she is really good for him in a lot of ways. Like she is pushing him out of his comfort zone. She is like calling him on his bullshit.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
And clearly he provides a kind of security for Chelsea that she needs. Like he gives her a comfort and a safety. Like she, even when she's like basically begging him to be held and protected, like there is a dynamic here that makes a lot of sense. And one that I think is, is so expertly deployed opposite Chloe and Greg, where it's,
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
As we are told many times in this episode, basically the same people. Young woman, grumpy older man. The parallels are obvious, but Chloe hates Greg by every indication we have in the show. They have a purely transactional relationship where she is a sex worker, it seems of some kind, or at least Rick is very quick to point that out. Chelsea and Rick could not be more different in their way.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I think they are both benefiting from each other in some ways. Chelsea may not be on this kind of trip if not for Rick. And Rick may benefit for whatever his purposes are, personal or professional, from having a partner to travel with for cover or otherwise. But they have an actual functional relationship. It's weird, but it kind of works in its way.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Yes. I also think I never would have in my very limited casting wisdom thought to put Walton Goggins opposite Amy Lou Wood and say that is a pairing that should work as a couple who is traveling abroad.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
There is more charge in like a four word exchange between them when she tells him he's so mysterious and he just says, I'm not. Then basically like any supposedly steamy show on television now or in the recent past, like, and that's before they start the proper foreplay. Like there is just something between them that absolutely works in that way.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
And once you have that, you can sell a lot of the rest and you can understand the emotional beats and you can figure out like who these people are to each other and what they can mean. But you're right.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
It terrifies me to hear you lay it out in the way of Rick as somebody who is going to probably have to make a choice at some point, specifically as far as his identity, when we just talked about all the White Lotus characters who just crystallize in their worst instincts by the end of the season.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Some do.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I'm so glad you asked.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
He's definitely going to Bangkok, right?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Joe they can email us at monkey shootout at gmail.com or as always prestige tv at spotify.com but we all know the monkey shootout is coming it has been foreshadowed it has been foretold it is monkeys are in every interstitial in this entire episode somehow the monkeys are here and they will be shooting out soon so please email us at monkey shootout at gmail.com we did get an email from our listener Rachel who asks under the umbrella of the monkeys did it
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Along the Blonde Blob line, though, we got an email from... You already mentioned one Kara who emailed in. A different Kara emailed us in to point out that... It's not often in TV that you get stories that it's like one insulated storyline with people of the same gender, the same age bracket, the same hair color.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
And it feels very telling in that way that they are allowed to be the blonde blob and written to be the blonde blob. Because usually in these exact scenarios, one has to be brunette, one has to wear glasses, one has to be in a different age set or have a dramatically different style. These are three women who are styled pretty similarly at the end of the day.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
And the fact that they are constructed as as a like one unit to be considered and also to pull apart from itself, I think, is where the fun comes from.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
How could we possibly tell them apart?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
You know, let me tell you, we'll be cracking imminently within episodes if it isn't already. But you're absolutely right about Jacqueline. And I think it's tied to into her standing in the broader world. Right. There is who she is in this friend group. And it feels increasingly as we learn more about her. Like, this is a bit of a retreat.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
This is a bit of a circling the wagons for somebody who's going through a lot, who has a lot of neuroses, who has this husband who she's obsessed with healthfully. And there's definitely nothing weird going on there at all. And she's definitely not insecure about the fact that he's 10 years younger than her and clearly very, very, very hot.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
um and so you see a lot i feel like among yeah the fancies the fancy cougars the blonde blob whatever you prefer of these women kind of speaking to their insecurities both directly and indirectly and for jacqueline is it is a lot of like am i hot enough or good enough for this relationship that i'm in is one of the insecurities she's talking about but you can transpose it on her friends too where it's like if she's not even hot enough for
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
To be the hottest in this group. How is she going to be hot enough to fend off everyone who's making advances on her hot husband?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
And I feel like in Kate, the insecurity that you hear is a lot more like it's played for last with the Parker Posey scene in terms of like the non-recognition. But she comes away from it like she seems genuinely a little bothered. And her thought is, am I that forgettable? Am I boring? Am I that boring? Right. And the answer might be yes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Like the most interesting thing this woman has to say is about beans, which we can circle back to if you like. But like that seems like where she is. She's trying to figure like she wants to be notable beyond more than just being like a rich guy's wife.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I think you get this kind of really hammered home by the end when Tim is on the phone talking about the light to media money laundering that he seems to have done for only 10 million dollars.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Versus, you know, like even for someone like Jacqueline, 10 million dollars is probably a lot of money.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
That was the closest she's gotten to Sydney Sweeney era White Lotus so far. She has it in her, and I wonder if we're going to see more and more of it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
A monkey related shooting. Yeah. Monkey involved shooting.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
When, frankly, it was good to see the claws come out a little bit as far as her place in this relationship that she can talk some shit to. She can gossip with the best of them. Like, the dynamics shift depending on which two women are in the room. Yeah. And we get some hints at a backstory as far as, like, you know, the potential, like, pursuit of Valentin, for example.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Like, oh, this is Cancun all over again. Like, Laurie's been out here getting after it. All right? Like, she's lived a life. She's had a pretty successful career, if not, as you said, in the way that she may have wanted as far as making a partner. Right. But I love the developing relationship and the rounding out, or I guess hardening edge of the triangle between these three women.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
This is my mathematical proof, Joe, and please check my work here. Kate will talk shit about Lori, but she kind of needs to be nudged to talk shit about Jacqueline. Like she feels like she's a little more hesitant to talk shit about Jacqueline. And in some ways maybe wants to be Jacqueline or have Jacqueline's face or whatever you prefer. Uh,
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Jacqueline will hear gossip about Lori, but honestly mostly seems to pity her and her circumstances in ways where she doesn't want to pile on too much. Lori will talk shit about Jacqueline, and that's, I think, our new development in this episode. She's coming in hot. It just might take her, like, a bottle bottle and half of Sauvignon Blanc to get there. And once she does, she has a raft.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I'm going to say this. If a monkey is even in the background of the scene, we're going to claim victory on this.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Can you believe that about the beans?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I'm going to need episode seven to just be eating a big old plate of beans like we don't need to call it out, but we need to get the melon.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
The real ones need to know. And we need to see it in action. But honestly, I wonder if we're going to get that. I wonder if this is the case where it is a triangle technically, but Kate is kind of the hinge point. Because we're already told that Jacqueline and Lori haven't seen each other in four years, I think is what Jacqueline says. Maybe they're just not as close.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Maybe Kate's role in this friend group has always been that she's sort of the middle ground for both of them and the way that everything makes sense. So I honestly don't know if we're going to get that. But it would fit the monkey, see no evil, hear no evil theme perfectly.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I think it's got to be a live monkey. Unless someone with a gun turns a corner and sees a monkey statue and gets startled and shoots somebody thinking it's a real monkey, then I will still claim victory. So yeah, the gun doesn't have to be in the monkey's hands. I think the monkey needs to be driving the action in some way to shots being fired. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Because I thought it was kind of interesting that when their friends are gossiping about them, Lori sees her friends through the window but can't hear them. Jacqueline hears her friends from downstairs but can't see them. Maybe we do get, you know, the trifecta as far... I don't even know what it would be at that point.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
To speak your friends, but not... Are you writing bullshit about... Are you tech... Well, they don't have their phones, I guess. At least we don't think they have their phones. But it's got to be some version of the written word.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Yeah, that's the point.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Maybe a little of all of the above. And this is what I love about this friend group is there is so much being critical of each other under the guise of care, under the guise of like, oh, I'm so concerned about their well-being. I'm so concerned about their life. But they always double back to like, oh, but she's so great. Oh, but she's so beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
On the one hand, that could be very superficial. I also think it can kind of be true of the people that you're closest with and like who have you have the longest lasting connections with is you can be critical of them and wonder what the hell they're doing, but also care about them. I don't know that that's the case here. And maybe it's not.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Maybe this is a long, a long lasting friendship that should have petered out years and years ago. And these women are kind of holding on to. But I think there's something true in that, or at least something true in the way people try to act, which is they want to be close, even if they aren't.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
And in that case, it will indeed be a monkey shootout by definition.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Yes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
He's not my guy.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
He is not my guy. I just want to say Valentin, not my guy.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Right.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Not enough. Can you take me on a journey?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I mean, certainly makes it all the more understandable why Sutala would point out, oh, he's Russian when they show up. Like how it would be useful from the perspective of working at a hotel to have a fluent Russian speaker, somebody to work with Russian guests like that. That makes all the sense in the world. Also would help us understand why these other two robbers might be potentially Russian.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
The fact that Valentin is so clearly involved to me, and this has been easily the funniest thing as far as from a theory standpoint. The number of people who I have seen suggested as potentially behind the masks executing this robbery. Let me tell you, Greg is not robbing this hotel. No.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
That tells me you have never seen a man of Greg's age move like the hip, the hip mobility. He's not swiveling like that. Like, it's just not happening. I'm sorry. He's not moving in that way. And so I think you can very easily go through the list of like people. It could not be under any circumstances or people who narratively probably would not make sense.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
But then there's Valentin, who is stopping not just to distract Gaitak at the gate, but parking his bike underneath the gate itself and preventing it from closing as he is soft pitching the idea of going to these fights together. I want to see if those tickets come through, by the way. He better at least deliver for our Gaitak.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
His idea of a chill first date is like a marriage proposal. He's coming in way, way, way too hot.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
His pitch is like, your family likes me and I can maybe hang a picture frame. That's his pitch.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Do you know? No, no.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Not yet. But she also has only, to this point, affirmed him with attention.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Not uncomfortable. There is a shy sweetness to them that I do enjoy watching.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I disagree, though, that the reciprocity is sort of what punctures the idea because you can be in a relationship with a guy and find out into the relationship with interest and with care and with love that they are actually a nice guy at heart and want to be controlling and want to kind of make these strictures around your life.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I think the test is going to be when Hollinger's bodyguards come calling again, when someone else shows interest, when Mook veers away from nursing him and holding his ice pack. What happens? What is left of our guy, Guy Talk? Sorry, your guy, Guy Talk.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Because, yeah, right now his only move is basically marry me. And it feels intense. And, yes, she is kind of laughing it off. Does not seem entirely uncomfortable with his advances.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
But I'm worried.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Well, he took a pistol whip and ultimately he got the most powerful medicine that there is, which is the sweet, sweet affection of the person that you're interested in. So he's doing all right at this point.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
he could not be more tightly wound so it would not surprise me to see him break at some point the way he is just like a living breathing anxiety spiral who eventually will talk himself into a fugue state if you let him go long enough I love in this show love everything that Fabian has bring to the table love the lip-syncing Wisteria Tala's performance oh my god I think he's gonna be more comedic effect moving some plot lines along I don't see like a tragic fate becoming him but I'm I am so happy he's here
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
You think Mook wants some of those special treatments too?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
saying no no porn chai in my view belongs to belinda but like belongs guy takes off his shirt one time and now they are betrothed there's energy there there isn't look she she is into the milk soap she is into the salt scrub like she's having a great time and i i support belinda and her pursuits uh dawkins is also not skipping arm day i'm just saying it's a great it was a great episode everyone knew
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
they were coming to Thailand and they're going to be taking their shirts off. They knew there were going to be some open flowing garments and everyone, everyone is really ready. What else do you want to talk about? Joanna? I don't know what's going on with the Ratliff kids. Uh, at this point, I'm very worried.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
uh-huh that somebody's something is gonna end up in someone and i don't know who or which or what the the incest vibes are just incredibly strong tough it's tough but between everybody everybody's each other's business i really hate the way you just phrased that um but i can't find my i didn't need to disagree with you um it's not good if you had to pick a parry oh boy
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I have a very bad feeling that there is a Piper Saxon situation happening. Actively happening. I don't know if actively happening, but like... On the horizon. Something did happen. Something is weird. I want to go through specifically when Lockie and Piper are out in the ocean hammocks. And he brings to her... Can we press pause?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Why not? Let's take another lap.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I love a hammock. I would love an ocean. Oh my God. Are you kidding? This is an ideal setup. This is where you want to be. I think the only issue with the ocean hammock, and this is only a problem if you are an adult 2025 person like I am, it's hard to bring things out to the hammock.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
If you're having to swim to it, like you could have the waterproof bag with your book in it or your, your music in it, like what, you know, your headphones, whatever it is that you want to bring. Um, But look, very good for presence. Very good for tranquility. I would love to be in that hammock.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Definitely works. But like Piper's going full like freestyle. Like she's swimming out there. So it's at least a little bit deep.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
into ocean hammock corner but let's go back to uh to incest uh corner incest road with that's not a corner you want to be in it's not legal in many states uh thank but yeah thank you all of them right i i hope i i almost am scared to know at this point okay uh so lockheed brings up to piper by the way saxon says that you've never had sex before yeah
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
totally normal what sarah catherine hook is giving us as piper in this scene is a whole ass crisis of something and i don't know what it is or what it means like she gets to the what the fuck she starts with like she has her eyes closed as lucky is saying this her eyes jut open you can see the gears turning as she's figuring like what do i possibly say to this
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
her first response is to scoff and to kind of grasp at something and to project like she's above it. Like he doesn't know what I do. Right. That is her first response when she finally does respond. Then she tries to kind of quiet down. Then she sits up agitated asking how the hell would this even come up? And that's where Locke tells her, oh, actually, no, it was a compliment.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
He was actually saying, you're so hot, so it's weird that you've never had sex before. Very normal, cool family. This is where you get the mouth, what the fuck. Piper gets frustrated and weirded out. She tries to settle down again, and that's when Locke
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
prompts her in a very saxon way to ask well is it true and that's when she bolts off and so it's like there's so much happening here between them and so much specifically in what piper is kind of carrying on her face and internally in this scene yeah i would be shocked if there's not something behind it and it may not be the kind of thing we ever get into but it's it's hinting at a very rich sibling history and i pray not incestuous sibling history but at this point god knows
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I mean, Saxon is like if a shit-eating grin was a person. So yeah, like the bar is pretty low.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
At minimum, Locke is a little freak who wants to stare at his brother's ass and ask her sister about her sexual escapades. It's not great, the early signs.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Can I say one thing in Saxon's defense? Just one quick note.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
You know, we laughed at the time about this when the rooming arrangements were being proposed. And he said something to the effect of like, you can't do that when you have fully grown genitals.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Knowing everything that we think we know now or suspect now about the Ratliffs, maybe he was right. These three people need three separate rooms and need their fully grown genitals very far away from each other.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Yes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Sleeping nude with your brother in the room is deranged behavior.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Okay.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Always.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Oh, sure. Here's an igneous. Here's a volcanic. Yeah. Let's hammer these things out. Okay. Here's some talc.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Shout out to Big Tree for trying to get it rebranded as Pong Pong. Like, it's just a softer, gentler situation.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Him being out of earshot and also Saxon trying to get him in on the protein smoothie game. That's a tough combination.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Yeah. Then poisonous fruit. We all love it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Let me get some local delicacies.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
That's the worst you got. Guys, it's 2025. You need to dream bigger. Like people are worse than that. I'm sorry.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
So, you know, here's where the blondies are not a monolith, though, because Kate seems like a tough hang. I'm going to be honest with you.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I do want to hear about the beans, but I might be shooting my friends a look as she's talking about the beans in the way that she and Lori are shooting each other looks. Lori and Jacqueline seem like pretty good company as far as these things go.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
If you were power ranking the current White Lotus guests based on who I would want to be in a social situation with, I think Chelsea is probably number one with a bullet. She seems like a delight. Correct. Porn Shy seems pretty cool. I would hang out with him. Yeah. I'll throw a mook into that category. Again, guy talk, not my speed, per se. The Ratliffs are generally out.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Even her, I'm a little skeptical of. I think we're going to see some different layers of Piper throughout this season.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
But once you get beyond that group... Actually, Belinda seems like a great hang, too. I think you're getting into Laurie and Jacqueline territory pretty quickly.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
But sweet, sweet mercy. That is White Lotus. That is Mike White. That we get the name of Lori's daughter in this episode, so I do not have to endure the dumbest theory, with all due respect to anyone who is pushing it, of White Lotus. The idea that season two's Portia was somehow Lori's daughter based on the fact that I guess they're both blonde. That was as far as the evidence seemed to go.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Oh, my God. I mean, are all three members of the blonde blob slash fancy cougars have very active minds, very active neuroses? As you bring up the monkey mind, Jo, it calls to mind something for me, which is in the captioning for White Lotus. You get a lot of these animal noises during the interstitials. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
And sometimes I feel like the monkeys are described as chittering and sometimes they're described as chattering. Do you have a good handle on what separates a chitter from a chatter?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I'm Rob Mahoney.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Makes sense. So maybe it's more chittering cicadas than it is chittering monkeys.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
The man needs a lorazepam so bad.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
We're out here. We're out here looking for teal in every corner and as always kind of looking for which characters that teal is associated with. I feel like that's also very important.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
We did. Perhaps more than immersive reading emails. I didn't.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
But more divisively. The immersive reading emails were consistently, as requested on my part, explaining to us why you might do this. The accent emails, we have people from the Carolinas feeling very strongly on both sides of the divide. Brother against brother. It's tough times out here.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I am on the right side of history about that. I feel very confident in my opinion and our listeners who emailed in to... Just to concur, really. Just to stand with me against you and other chicken washers out there.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Not a complaint, simply commentary. But Joe, I'm curious of your expert opinion on this, because as someone who has recently overcommitted to doing a Southern accent for a very long D&D campaign, I'm curious if that experience brought anything new out for you in terms of the work of not just trying to nail the accent a la Jason Isaacs, which he clearly is at some points, but maintaining it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Oh, no, it was absolutely a snub. I mean, it was a squinty wall that she was giving in response to the oh, hey, girl energy. Like, you can't do that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
um do you feel like you've encountered a squinty wall in your time uh growing up in the south is this a is this a normal thing that you've seen not that i've encountered no me neither but maybe in retrospect there was one and i was just oblivious to it or i was thinking somebody was rude but in fact they were just blitzed out of their fucking gourd like you know i think there's many explanations for these so you feel like it's the lorazepam
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
I feel like she is comfortably numb every second of every day and also probably does not remember however many years ago this was because she was also then comfortably dumb and has no grasp of what happened when or why or with whom.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Yes. So I consider that people being on my side. You're right. They're with me. But... The important thing, if you are out there listening to a book, audio book, as you read it, immersive reading, as we've been told many people call this, we see you, we hear you, we acknowledge everything that you're doing out there. Clearly, there is an incredible market for this that we did not realize, Joe.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Maybe himself more than his family. We got multiple emails of people worried about Tim Ratliff becoming a, and this is a direct quote from both, family annihilator.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
The synchronicity of that concerned me a little bit, but I would say that's not usually what White Lotus is. It's not a show where I expect like I expect comic shootout with a bunch of criminals involving Jennifer Coolidge. Sure. A man murdering his entire family before committing suicide. I'm going to say that's not going to happen now. Could he disappear?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Could he you know, this is a man who does not seem to have a lot of cards to play. Could he fake his own death? Could he kill himself? I think those things are in play, but I'm not I don't think Tim Ratliff is going to gun down or poison his children. I just don't see that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 2 Deep Dive and Theories: The Incest Vibes Are High
Just go the next White Lotus over? But the problem with that is it doesn't seem like our guy is going to have a lot of disposable funds to do that with. So it's easier to go Gary when you can just live up the hill in splendor.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And the fact that everyone is so game for it and so good at it. Look, Stephen Graham has found a hell of a troupe. If this is his troupe, I think he needs to look no further.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
This is a tough corner for you to be on, Joe. Are you pro-drone? I'm not actually pro-drone, but... You love a drone? I don't actually love a drone. I want to be very clear for everyone listening at home. There's a facetious comment. I'm not pro-drone, but...
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Does that count? You're not even trying.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I'm pro that drone shot. I am pro.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Does that make sense? That does make sense. I think the fact that you can go from chase scene into character beat into fly away drone shot into extreme close up on Stephen Graham in a one or format. It's just like I've never seen that before. And so I'm I'm extremely down for that element of that execution.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
But yeah, I'm glad you point that out. Cause like the, the one or stuff as it relates to a drone shot or flying out the window is naturally sort of arresting and dazzling, but how you bank corners in a tight English home does not make sense. Like geometric sense. I have no idea how they pulled it off.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Yeah. Your sense of awe and wonder is overriding your ability to process and enjoy and engage with the show.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Occasionally. I think in some cases it does, though, facilitate the story as they're trying to present it. I think episode one is a great example where disorientation is very much a part of that process. And I was so struck in episode one being basically as pure procedural as this show gets, right? It is arrest to booking to interrogation, effectively. That is the process of the episode. Mm-hmm.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
But for example, for something as simple as in any other procedural, they're trying to get the code to his phone, to Jamie's phone, to open it, to gather evidence. In this, because of the POV kind of laced one or format, you are following person from room to room as they discover. In order to get his phone, you do need the code. In order to get the code, Jamie has to give it to you. In order to
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Coincidentally to pineapplebobbing at gmail.com or as always to prestigetv at spotify.com.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
For him to agree, he has to be first assessed by this nurse and, like, made fit to make that agreement in the first place. And in order to be assessed, he has to get his, like, appropriate adult in the room. And for then he has to decide, does that want to be his mother or his father or this random person, like, the social worker who's been assigned to him? And so you see all of these...
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
like very complex systems locking into one another. And one thing I thought that Chris and Andy pointed out on the watch, I thought was a great observation about this is you're seeing people at different levels of exposure and like emotional vulnerability all throughout this process, right?
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
You have the family that's in a state of complete shock in this elaborate system, bumping up against all of these professionals who are mostly trying to do their job competently. And I would say for the most part, quite compassionately given the circumstances.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
He even tries to preempt it and like take a break right before they're about to jump into it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I was really struck by that overall in terms of the way that the working professionals and the cops and everyone in the station does talk to Jamie. Yeah. As you say, knowing in some regard what he's done or what he's most likely done. And it's even under those circumstances, like, Bascom is not trying to throw the book at him.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
He is telling him, when we get in there, you should ask for a solicitor. Like, this is what's going to happen. You should ask for these things. Not just reading his rights, but explaining him in a more delicate way since he is a scared child, regardless of what he's done. And all the people who are assessing him, it's a lot of like, you're such a smart boy. You're such a good boy.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
It's a lot of mate and love. And I understand, and we're going to get into it as far as the handling of that character and that character's place in this story. And I very much understand the reads on it. I think treating that character with a kind of compassion is a really interesting artistic choice.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And it's happening across the story. And it's happening across the story in a way that I think adolescence has something to say about it. It has a lot to say about that idea of who these people are and the way that they're made.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I'm not even saying there's been any pushback other than to say, I think the show itself engages with this idea in the second episode where the show is basically calling itself out for being fundamentally and structurally a story about Jamie in a lot of different ways. And in particular, DS Frank, Misha played by Faye Marseille, who I love and I'm thrilled to see in this role. I agree.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
You have this kind of point of conflict between her and Bascom, where Bascom is very intent on figuring out the why of why Jamie murdered Katie. And I think Frank doesn't think you ever can know why, which is a reasonable point of view to have in a case like this.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
But also, it bothers her so much that they're spending so much time trying to get into Jamie's head in a way that probably will render Katie invisible or at least put her aside or at least put her outside the frame. And... I think Bascom's counter to that, that figuring out the why, is in its way honoring Katie.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I do find that to be a little bit persuasive, but I honestly very much want to hear what you feel about it, Jill.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I know. Which is... And it's always a woman, or in this case, a little girl.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I don't I don't think it does either. And it's something that even as that conversation is happening in the moment, that was what took me out as much as anything. It's like, oh, we have to have this talk about why the show is structured.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Why the show is structured the way it is to the extent that I give it a little more leeway on that front. I think it's because.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Joe, that's a lot of pods.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
This show is so deeply unsalacious like it is it is it is so uninterested in the glamorization of murder or in this I ripped even like a rip from the headlines sort of intrigue and so much more interested in the structural factors that lead to things like this and really the way that not just Jamie is.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
a kid who has gone so far astray and has so many clear terrifying problems but the way that like we as a society have failed kids and we have failed their ability to be raised in a normal format and to be able to function as normal adult human beings like everything is going off the railroad tracks so fast and it's like the camera's pointing at the railroad tracks and saying like why is this happening as much as it is the murder itself or anything involved
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Some stuff. That's some content for your feed.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
It does.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And if you're going to do it, at least do it well in this particular way where it is, yes, technically impressive, but overall, I think the one or format, and we can talk about this in the context of any of these episodes, I would say, especially episodes three and four have this advantage where it is just ratcheting up the intensity.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Like every cut, when you think about it is like a little bit of a pressure release. And so the fact that you never get those pressure releases mean
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
It's just genuinely an awful time to be a teenager. Just an awful, awful time.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Although Mr. Malick, not winning teacher of the year anytime soon.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Mrs. Fenimore.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Is it too late to pull him out of that? Can we be his agents? I think we can help him out.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Yeah. This is their fifth session, I think.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I think I agree with you on episode three overall being sort of the standout, which is really saying something given the other three episodes with I think are tremendous in their own way. But the sort of experience of watching this show pitting your brain against itself where we have seen on tape that he stabbed this girl. And we know it. It's not something a character said.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
It's not a little thing to put out there that they're going to swerve. And it turns out he's not actually the killer and the tape was doctored or whatever. He is the killer. And yet, you can't help, at least I could not help, but be charmed by him at certain points and to see him as that kid. And it's just like, it is impeccable acting. It is jackpot casting.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
It's really threading the needle in finding someone who can be both the kid who pisses himself when the police show up, whimpering in his bed, and also lording over this therapist who's come to talk to him and evaluate him. And to be not just angry, but calculatedly intimidating. There are moments where I agree with you. It's not a flip switch. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
It's not a switch flip, but ultimately he'll have his freak out moments that are kind of pure anger or pure frustration or him like getting out some kind of boyish young energy and anger. And then when he comes back from them, there's there is something there that is so dark and it is so like him seizing control of that room.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And him trying to seize control of their dynamic, his dynamic with yet another woman in his life, that he wants so desperately to like him, and yet he can't get her to admit it. In some cases, because professionally, she simply cannot.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
At least kind of chatting her up.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
He's kind of like he fixates on it really quickly.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
you're pretty and posh and you can't understand my plight and i'm not even going to give you the opportunity to make this connection with me that i thought was really yes stunning and telling i think the way that jamie locks on to yes those sorts of associations who can understand him and who can't how people communicate with him like he's so enamored with this idea of like oh that's not what normal people say like when i say that i'm ugly you're supposed to reassure me when i
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
say that girls would never be interested in me you're supposed to tell me of course that's not true right and her unwillingness to participate in that is some of what stokes all of the intensity in that scene and what brings out some of the language you're talking about like the queen and the little head and even when he's describing you know what what kind of preempts him murdering katie is some nude photos of her leak out among the school from snapchat
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And he decides that he wants to like take a pass at her in this moment, that she has been embarrassed enough socially. Exactly. That he says she's weak and that therefore she might be more susceptible to his advances. And like that idea, I just like putting it in that way. Like we, we hear reiterated over and over again in episode three, that it's not about what happened.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
It's about what he thinks it's about. It's not what is true is how he's thinking about things. And like, One area in which this show, which very much wants to be a show about masculinity and a story about how these boys become these boys and how they become the kind of person that would murder a girl.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
It engages very openly in some of the factors that facilitate that. Their depth online and what they're exposed to on the internet, what they're exposed to in these schools. We get explicit Andrew Tate name checks, kind of manosphere mentions overall.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I thought it was really interesting that they choose to make Jamie not someone who follows all that stuff credulously, but someone who has looked at it and said, some of this isn't really for me, but also ends up parroting other bits of it almost subconsciously, accepting it regardless of whether he thinks he's doing it or not.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I thought like that, that's such a great choice that makes it honestly so much more fucking terrifying.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I have to say, coming out of this, it makes me... Really feel for every parent out there who has a teenager or a near teenager who's having to deal with this because I mean, one of the ideas that's kind of throughout adolescence, I would say, especially in the back half is this idea that his parents are reckoning with at the end in like, how did we make this monster effectively?
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And yet a monster that we are still claiming as our own. They're not disowning him. They're not pushing him away like he is still their son. And one of the things they talk about is like they thought he was safe because he was in his room. And this idea that the danger has transcended the boundaries of your home, that it is infiltrating, that there really is no way to keep it out other than.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
To try to be more present in their lives, to try to put them on these kind of more constructive paths. And I think that's where you get ultimately like the Bascom parallel with his son, Adam, who also is a kid at school who is bullied, who also is kind of a bit of a social outcast.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And you see it in action. Like you see the kids picking on him and it sucks and it's terrible. And ultimately, there are a lot of kind of minor parallels between Bascom and Eddie, right? They're both like working men who have long hours, who come back late, who aren't as present in their kid's life as they may want to be. And yet Adam is on this one path and Jamie is on this other path.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And it's such a fine line between them that... like drawing up any specific causality would be a failure of judgment it is it's so complex and it's so difficult to assess like why this happens to one kid and not the other and i i appreciate this show trying to at least wrestle with that idea yeah i think i think ending episode two with bascom connecting with his kid
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
But it's sort of like... I mean, it depends on how good the chips are. If the chips are great, then maybe we're on the road.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Yes. And I think it's good characterization for Bascom, too, that this is a guy who's very smart and very good at his job and a good investigator. And he's in totally over his head when it comes to anything related to the Internet.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
You're embarrassing yourself and me.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I think episode two does a good job of illustrating some of that, too. Just like the way in which... Not just teenagers or teenagers, but this particular generation of teenagers and the way they respond to things and the way that like even Katie's death is something that's kind of being snickered about by some of the kids in the school.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And that's look, that is a tale as old as time, like teenagers trying to cope with tragedy and not knowing how to do it and making ridiculous and terrible jokes. That's always been a thing. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
But the ways in which some of the information, ultimately some of the worldview that we're talking about that Jamie gets a hold of or really gets a hold of him, that's stuff that can course through a school as fast as it can through comments on his Instagram, right?
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
The word of mouth was exceptionally strong, I would say.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I suspect more so adults.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I think the effect that you described of if you are a certain age, you immediately think to everyone you know who is in that tween to teen bracket and how they may tangentially be involved in these sorts of worlds, whether they know it or like it or not. Yeah. That's something that's, I think, so much easier to do as an adult looking down in age versus for teens looking across themselves.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I just want to say one... I want to clear out one final moment for episode four in particular. And I will say, to me, the biggest payoff of the one-er style, a lot of it is in episode three. I think that's an incredible piece of work. But what we get from Stephen Graham and Christine Tremarco in episode four...
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I think it was that it was a surprise that it caught people off guard, that it just kind of popped up on Netflix without a ton of fanfare, despite it being a pretty extravagant production. And so people happen upon this in their feed. Try it because maybe they love Stephen Graham. Maybe they just are looking for something to watch. And I think if you don't know what you're getting into...
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
as they are, as they are processing as parents and they've been through a day that I imagine is like many of their days where they try to pretend some things are normal and everything just comes crashing down.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Like the idea of normalcy is not available to these people at this time and the way it becomes fractured and the way that they start falling apart and the way that they start diagnosing and questioning, like, was it this thing that I did? Was it my temper that led him down this particular path? Uh, I think is just a remarkable piece of acting among other things.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And in particular, Stephen Graham and his character, Eddie going into Jamie's room at the end of the finale. Holy fuck. I mean, just sitting on his son's bed, tucking in his teddy bear, sobbing and apologizing to his son that can't be there. It just fucking laid me out, man.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And I think the power of this show is if I ever listened to the song that is playing during that sequence for the rest of my life, that's Aurora's through the eyes of a child.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I'm just going to be wrecked. And it's going to take me right back to that moment. And it's like, for everything that we said about the pit, like to me, adolescence, it also has its moments of like, let me say this part out loud really quickly before we move on. But then it lands it with this. And so that to me is why everything feels so different in the show.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
As far as, as far as messaging within television is concerned.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Well, especially when he's crying over the murderer of a teenage girl.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And so, to me, it's the magic of this show that Jamie, in scenes, can make you forget for a second that he's a murderer. And that his parents can make you forget that what you are feeling and what you're crying about and what you're experiencing is sympathy and pity and regret over, if not a murderer, then the tragedy that made this kid a murderer.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And that's like a wider societal tragedy as much as anything.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
This show can really knock you out. It's pretty heavy emotional territory that they're getting into, as you might guess from the subject matter. Anytime a child is involved in some sort of serious crime, we're wading into something pretty deep. I think it handles those themes and those ideas about as well as a project like this can.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I really hope if you're listening this far, you've already seen this show. And if you somehow haven't, even after everything you've heard, I would encourage you to watch it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And I don't know how you feel overall, Joe, but I would say from this... At a distance, trying to decide should you watch adolescence or not, I would give it basically my strongest possible recommendation if you have the stomach for some more serious, like true to cultural commentary of our real world sorts of themes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Don't just listen to us. Listen to everyone else who's watching this show and is driving it up the Netflix charts on a daily basis.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I think that might be disrespectful to the show.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I'm Rob Mahoney.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Here's the question. Do we want to tip the hand as to what happens beyond episode one? Because I feel like where it goes and how surprising this show is and what it wants to tackle, to me, is part of the thrill of it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Oh, in that case, you know what? Let's just jump straight to the end.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
It's definitely Snatch, first and foremost. Although, look, let's put respect on the Venoms' names.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
If we simply must. I do think he's had an incredible wide-ranging career in terms of what he can pull off on screen, but the physical presence that he brings to something... And brings to something like Snatch and brings to his whole genre of like gangster and gangster adjacent roles that he's played throughout his career.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I think informs a lot of kind of what is what is priming us to watch him on screen here in Adolescence as Eddie, where there is the implication throughout a lot of the stages of the story of is this character violent? Is this an abusive father? Is this someone who? Does have an anger problem. And we hear a lot more about it than we end up seeing earlier in the stage of the story.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
So we're filling in a lot of the blanks in our minds as to what that looks like. And it looks like Stephen Graham, a dude who's so jacked he's about to pop out of his polo shirt. It's hard not to infer some things about that just from that character and that actor. And they know they know exactly what they're doing in having him in this role.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Here we are complaining about recording multiple podcasts. Stephen Graham is just like, yeah, multiple extravagant productions in one calendar year. No big.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I think there's a lot of ways where that could have gone horribly wrong, coloring in the lines that Netflix provides you as far as that kind of structure. This construction, and I don't feel this way about a lot of one-shot stuff, which usually can be overly showy, pointless just for the point of extravagance and the point of kind of showing off the cinematography with no actual narrative value.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
I think the one-shot construction for adolescents specifically brings a lot to the table in terms of the story that they're trying to tell and the impact of how it ultimately hits. There's There's a couple of different ways in which I think it really, really pays off. And as you said, we can kind of circle back to some of that stuff.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
But if they were filling a brief, I think mission incredibly accomplished as far as that goes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And I will say this, too. If you haven't seen if you've already watched the show and you haven't seen any of the behind the scenes featurettes and footage as far as how they made it, it's remarkable to go back and watch and to read about the process where basically it was like a three week.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
We sure are. Will we be bobbing for pineapples live on air, Jo? Can you commit to that?
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
Segment into every episode week one being rehearsal among just the actors week two being a rehearsal with the cameras involved, which you have to understand, like are dancing around and moving through people and out windows in a really kinetic way have to be marked out, have to be staged in their way. And then week three is filming two takes a day for five days.
The Prestige TV Podcast
Netflix’s Hit One-Shot Show, ‘Adolescence’: The Surprise of the Year?
And so the idea that given the emotional heft of. I'm not just like what these actors have to execute in terms of hitting their marks and the very delicate staging and everything interlocking in such an integral way to the story you're trying to tell, but also deliver the biggest emotional moment in minute 40 of a take is just a ridiculous ask of this cast.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Please email us at monkeyshootout at gmail.com. A very normal email address.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Well, we explored some of them quite closely, but maybe not in that exact way.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Definitely so. And I would say as an offshoot of that, maybe the variation for this season is not taking someone who has no ties, but taking someone who has them, sever them, and then they become vulnerable in their way, right? Like, if the truth about what Tim has done gets out... all of a sudden those familial ties aren't as strong as they once were.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
And I think all of the rat lifts would be spiraling out of control. I don't think Tim is the dead body. I think he has the gun in his hands almost too early in the story for him to actually be the one who ends up dead. Uh, but he could be involved in some way. It's like, you can start to triangulate the way these things might connect, right?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Are you, Joe, up on Paradise? Yes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Tim has the gun guy talks, potentially trying to get it back. We see this very like, uh, lingering shot of a security camera early in the episode where I would imagine Guy Talk is able to piece together the fact that Tim has the gun in the first place.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
You also have Belinda who is jumpy at everything in a way that could keep her alive if Greg's Googling turns into ill intentions, turns into him coming after her. And so you can see all these people getting increasingly antsy. And obviously there's the gun in the middle of the room now that's going to change the dynamics of a lot of this stuff.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
But I have no idea which way it's going to be pointing at the end of the day. Other than I feel good that Chelsea will not die. She's almost been in too much danger too fast. I don't believe the final destination of what she's proposing. And I don't think Tim is going to die. But other than that, I'm open to most permutations.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
You know what? It was like pulpy fun. And then one episode later in the season just kicks into high fucking gear.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Not a great guy, but a great character.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
If you work for Interpol, please hit us up. I would love to know mechanically how this works. I was actually thinking about it. Once she finds out that Greg Gary is the guy she thinks that he is, is a murderer, What do you do if you're in Belinda's position? Do you go to the hotel staff? Do you call the Thai police? Do you call the American authorities?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Episode seven really, really pulls it together in a fascinating way.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Especially because he's at least an expat, probably still an American citizen. Do you need to work out Italian extradition laws before you even start going to anybody?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
No, but they're just there for the anonymity of all the other bald guys. It's just that you can't pick them out of a lineup.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I do.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Okay. Well, there's fewer speeches about Chinese lithium mines and how they're ruining the environment. So I think you're going to be open to this one.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Yes, I think it would make total sense. And I see there's two variations of that. One is a very internal dark week of the soul where it is him going through all these possibilities, spiraling out of control, freaking out. And then the air is taken out of the balloon. And actually, it's all going to be fine. Got, you know, his lawyer cut a deal. Something happened.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Kenny Wynn is found liable for this, that and the other. And all of a sudden, Tim's off the hook, off the hook. Yeah. Or we had an email or Tim reach out to us a couple episodes ago, honestly, about the possibility of Tim being out of touch with his phone. And we see him go back to the phone despite Pam's objections in this episode. Back to the phone today. But what if he spirals out of control?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
His family finds out the truth from him or from some other means. He has to deal with all the personal consequences of this. Maybe there's even some horrible outcome he can't take back or the family is irrevocably broken. And then he gets back on his phone and, oh, yeah, now everything is actually fine.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
And so it's not so much that real consequences come for people of this kind of privilege, but the most real damage that they can do is the damage that they do to themselves.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
And she's very, very right. If not more judgmental, honestly.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Yeah, I don't think it's going to go great. Honestly, it's a little thing and maybe it's truthful and we just haven't been given the full picture of what's going on there. Her referring to what I think we understand to be a temple or a monastery as a meditation center, I thought was kind of a telling little detail.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
It's like for her, this is a very specific, very westernized, very sanitized kind of idea of what she's walking into. And I think she's going to be And for a lot more than that, if she actually does end up there in any capacity at all, ultimately, I think she's going to walk to the edge and blanch. I think that's probably what the future of that character holds.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I love I love a zag. And Mike White is as adept with those zags as anybody, like in subverting our expectations.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
He is a zaggy. I don't like that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
As far as Rick, though, I'm glad you brought them read a bit as far as, you know, him letting go of his story, because as soon as she said that and then we get deeper into the episode and find out the extent of what Rick's story really is, which is a story that his mom told him about his dad, who is just the kindest, gentlest soul who has ever lived. A do-gooder.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
A do-good, a straight Robin Hood type out here working for the good of the people who was murdered in cold blood and definitely never did anything wrong and also definitely is not Hollinger himself.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I feel like when Amrita is telling him that he can let go of his story, it's as much telling him he can let go of that story and not just this creation of who he is and his identity.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
But the only thing he really knows about himself and this formative gem that he has now created everything that we know Rick to be from is something that his mom told him on her deathbed that just, I'm going to say, does not seem to be very true.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
You're going to need to be more specific.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
But he's a zaggy at the end of the day.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Yeah, associate makes more sense to the extent that they're connected at all, but I'm just not sure that Greg and Rick are going to have any overt connection in quite that sort of way, other than being at the same place at the same time. And as you said, maybe if the authorities get involved, they both think they're being chased in some capacity. I can see that sort of connection.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I can see them bumping up against each other in all sorts of ways.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
And frankly, I'm a little disappointed we didn't get a little more yacht interaction between those two because Greg was just sequestered on the top deck.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Also very true. Two true lone wolves on the yacht. Never the twain shall meet.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
That was not great.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I will say, I know Piper got the title in this episode, but Sourpuss Sad Sack Shithead is really Rick's title to lose. He is wearing the crown in this episode. And Chelsea is over it, and I think rightly over it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
So there's levels to this murder charges before girlfriends. I think that is his order of operations. He's got bigger fish to fry.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
But he is furiously Googling. You know, there's a lot of great Googling going on in this episode. It's just, you know, Belinda and Greg Gary both connecting dots, trying to pull it all together. Yeah. The Internet is a magical place. Now, why couldn't he have done that Googling while he was on the yacht sitting there by himself? There's no Wi-Fi on that thing. Is the reception that bad?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
The gun is bad. But look, I've been hard on Guy Talk. I've been skeptical of his ability to read the room. Yeah. We're going to give him some grace today. Not in the professional sense, but at least in the personal sense. Professionally, he might be the worst person at this job in the entire hotel, like in terms of fulfilling his specific capacity. Very, very bad at his job.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I can't say I've been in the middle of the ocean on a yacht all that often. I imagine it's not great. But if you're on a three story yacht of that size, you're nothing has to have some sort of satellite.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Are you a woman of the sea, Jo?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I was thinking more like Portrait of a Lady on Fire, sprint to the edge and come to a dead stop dramatically at the last moment.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Is that a goal? Is that what we want? I don't think it's what we want.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
But you're a New York Times bestselling author, Joanna Robinson.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
These things are not the same.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Its own breakout.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Those rocky cliffs are perilous. You really got to be careful out there.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
And especially as a template, as we're seeing now for what Tim is going through and the sort of like self-disappearance he's at least considering in multiple ways.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
It's not just him getting the gun, but him kind of talking out loud in his conversations with Gary, with Greg, Greg, Gary. Right. I keep wanting to do Glenn, Gary, Gary, Glenn Ross.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
just sort of talking aloud in his conversations with greg gary about like the hiding and seeking and kind of like the do you like it here question even feels kind of pointed in a way where it's like he's at least kicking the tires and exploring his options as far as like what happens if i have to stay here yeah um it's it's to me it's giving like people wanting to play in the db cooper space right what is this unsolved mystery and how can i wrap it into sort of the story that i'm telling yeah
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
North Carolinian, I think, right? My hand was hit pretty hard after I believe I said North Carolinian on an early episode of this podcast.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
No disrespect to the Carolinians of all varieties.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I have to say, with all the accent work being done on this show, this is just the native accent, I think. But Pam's, oh, no, when Tim comes to retrieve his phone is just a delight. And I've just been saying it aloud to myself ever since I finished the episode.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I think we just have to look at the facts of this episode, which is Mook is reciprocating, I would say, in a degree that is slightly different than in previous episodes. She is flagging him down. She is pursuing him, wanting him to come watch her dance. She is swinging by in her dancing outfit just to show it off a little bit.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Geographically, it just kind of makes sense.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I'm a little disappointed that we're only getting, it seems, age-appropriate partiers going to the full moon party. I was really hoping that a Gary or Rick or even Fabian would show up at the party. Somebody who you wouldn't expect beyond just the Saxon, Lachlan, Chloe, Chelsea. Those are people I can see going to a party like this.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I wanted to see some fish out of water, and I'm a little bummed that it seems we may not get that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Enthusiastically? Joyously? I think I would commandeer a super soaker and jump into the party. That seems like what I would be wanting to do. But the fancies are after a very, very specific, very, very narrow definition of fun. And very, I think, performative definition of fun, if we're taking it from Jacqueline's perspective, especially.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
And I will say her initial response to being asked out on the date I read is like, oh, I'm not sure that she ever actually agreed to it before to rush off. But it seems like later in the episode, we have some confirmation that they are planning for a date.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
That responding as if they are in an active war zone strikes me as a little bit disproportionate to the small streams of water they are being sprayed with.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Well, they lay it out pretty cleanly. What they want is to go sit by a slightly different pool with a slightly different vibe.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
The olds were there.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I mean, in their defense, all the people she hated talking to, it seems like left.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
It's people she might actually enjoy a little bit more.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
See, I would have loved to see that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Victoria in sweaty withdrawal at the full moon party. That's a great episode.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Well, and with that, just like such a tailored existence, not just in terms of the people you're surrounded with, but being able to do exactly the thing that you want to do and know exactly where you need to go to do it or delegate that to an assistant or a PA or whatever.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
It's like she's not a person who's had to make a lot of decisions for herself, probably, or like actually go out and get things done for herself in a long time. And so this idea that her attempts to have party girl fun are foiled by basically just like a bad recommendation for Valentin, to be honest with you. And she's like a really angry response to it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
And I will say with the fancies overall and specifically with Jacqueline, you're seeing the sass is on front street right now. Like it is coming at the passive aggression is coming up through her pores. And we're starting to see some real things happen between them.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
And I think a clearer dividing line between Jacqueline and the other two women than we've ever seen before in terms of how they are looking at her and how she is treating them in this, which is very much I am on vacation with my girlfriends. They are the tagalongs on my journey to find us the appropriate party.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
The golden hour sunbeams behind her head. The whole scene is coming together, and I will say this. We got many, many great emails from people kind of walking us through some of the specifics of... Yeah. Based on that read, it does seem like they're kind of falling into those modes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
They were enjoying their drinks. Yeah. Enjoying the sun.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Also deeply satisfying to see the kids parked outside the storefront waiting for them to come back out.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Why?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I could see that. I honestly didn't read into it that way.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Yeah, this is a place where you can spend a little bit of time if you are any kind of normal person on vacation and have enjoyed the scene, enjoy the festivities. But clearly, I see it more as like his inability to read them and what they're after, right?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Like him sending them to the wrong party in the first place, him dropping them at, you know, in the middle of this like market doesn't seem to understand what they're actually after or who these people actually are. And they I mean, Jacqueline especially seems quite offended by that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
They're definitely not criminals.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I will say, Jo, I want to give you all two credit because when we do see these certainly not robber friends of Valentine's, the giant golden eagle shirt and guy with the snake tattoo that goes all the way to somewhere, I'm not exactly sure where or what the manifestation of that is. I kind of hope we get to see it now. You can't tease us with the snake tattoo and then not reveal it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
But I would like to consult the text logs, Joe, because you and I were texting with our guy Jacoby, I think like two weeks ago about Valentin and some of the characterization here. And specifically, one thing you brought up was that he really should be named Alexi by type, by look. This is an Alexi. And I have to tell you, Alexi has now arrived.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
He's simply Valentin's right hand man and not Valentin himself. So I'll do credit for you for spotting the Alexi from a mile away.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I love this for you. I love the way you're wielding your educational background. Really putting it to work.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Yeah, you don't know what's in there. I'd be careful, Jo.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
This was the nonfiction tome you were referring to?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
This is not my variety. No.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Long-form nonfiction. John McPhee kind of stuff.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
That's my zone.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
All that iPad time really paying off.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
They are sort of giving a very familiar presentation, which might let Guy talk off the hook as far as my previous concerns about how he would react if Mook wasn't as interested as he was.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
It seems to be working. I want to give him credit for that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Well, I think the shell of respectability is what Piper is bringing to him a lot of the time, right? It's this idea of like a certain kind of conversational decency, a blanching at some of the things that Saxon and Victoria say, for example. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
and the darkness that is increasingly winning is Saxon putting a beer in his hands and having him exercise and do some of that closeup magic for the ladies. And they, they really do seem to be enjoying it. You know, I'm not saying there's not a dark underbelly to closeup magic in general. Clearly there is, but Lachlan seems to be killing it with that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
That said, on a show like White Lotus, the idea that we're getting a very familiar presentation potentially of a type of romance does not make me feel great about their chances for these two crazy kids to end up together.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I agree with you that it's a little too overt. That's what's always so hard with White Lotus is the line between clue and such overt red herring ism.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
And that one almost it feels too obvious. It feels too above board. Everything I feel like that's going to be leading up to to the extent that anyone is dead, which, again, we don't know that anyone is at all, will not be somebody who is overtly talking about death and dying so much over the course of the scene. That's going to be my guess. But again, who knows what happens?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
uh i've got two more sort of like prompts for you yeah i prepped you one before we get to those anything else you want to make sure that we talk about on the saxon and locky front now that they're they're shipping off to the party yeah why do i feel like these two are one party drug away from doing something super weird
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
The incest just keeps getting escalated and escalated and escalated. And I'm just imagining, you know, true to the bacchanalia, true to the debauchery that could potentially happen at the full moon party, some giant group ordeal in which they are both somehow involved and end up getting challengers into this thing. I just, I'm concerned, Joe.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I'm not looking forward to it, but I just see bad things ahead for these two.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Just one quick shout out to Chelsea for a lethally effective cry pout. I don't think that I fully understood the power of Amy Lou's teeth specifically and what it would bring to the pout situation. But it's a level of escalation that's just not even fair. And you understand why Rick is effectively powerless against it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
The one we just saw.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I think she will. Yeah. I mean, what's weird about that is you often hear that shooting for TV and film on and around boats is very complex and very annoying, not a pleasant experience for the people involved. And so on the one hand, yes, you're on a yacht, but you're shooting on a yacht, which is not quite the same thing. Maybe maybe she enjoyed it just because she gets to vibe out.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
She doesn't have a lot to do this episode. And so she just gets to hang out, sip on a drink and not be concerned, not be concerned with the angles and the boom mics for this particular part of the proceedings.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Have we?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
In that case, Michelle Mahan, Carrie Coon, Leslie Bitt.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Just bumping through the roof this episode.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
It's in the works. The rights have been acquired.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Spoilers for the entire Scream series, I guess.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I ended with three answers.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
One, Jennifer Tilly. Maybe I'm just being Jennifer biased here, but I feel like- Great pick. I feel like she could really pull off the Coolidge element pretty effectively.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Two, Katherine Hahn going full ham mode. I could also see that. The other one, I think, is a bit more of a reach given the roles that she likes to play. But I've seen such incredible range from Melanie Linsky that I could see her playing up in a way that she doesn't often have an opportunity to do and being a proper Tanya McQuad voice and all.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Sydney Sweeney was the fourth one.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Why have we not gotten young Tanya? You know, these are the spinoffs we deserve.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Me Tanya. I feel like McQuad is such a great word, though. We need McQuad in there somewhere.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I'm gonna take you on a long walk, Joe. I've got four tiers of guessing slash not guessing that's going to happen here.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Tier one. The person I hope with all due respect that we do not get Jamie Lee Curtis. It's been done. We've seen it. The bear. Great. Love it. Let's let's move. Let's move on. Let's get some other people in the mix.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
to if only Jessica Chastain or Tilda Swinton were on this show who I think would be wonderful fits for the White Lotus universe I think maybe a little too starry for the kinds of performers we usually get in these roles so I'm going to say that they're probably not going to happen
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Some other possibilities that I'm going to throw on the board, but I don't think are quite fitting the bill of what I'm looking for. Brendan Fraser, who I think would make sense in sort of timeline, make sense in sort of like the kinds of roles that he might be up for. J.K. Simmons, who I think could be wonderful in all sorts of roles, criminal, Interpol, guest at the hotel otherwise.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I think Mahershala Ali would be awesome on this show and also is the kind of like –
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
like chameleonic performer where i could see him doing any variety of things in terms of how a guest star would show up but my my actual guess is eddie redmayne as a raver going full burning man mode at the moon party i just think he has that juice in him and maybe that's like a little jupiter ascending uh whisper shouting dynamic play going on there but i i could see that for him
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
That's the official Rob Mahoney guess on the guest star. So I guess we'll check back in a week and see how we did.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
There's some there's a pun there. You know, I'm going to abandon ship on that one. I'm going to I'm going to zaggy. I'm going to zaggy that thing straight out of here.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Even after the gun snafu of this week.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I'm Rob Mahoney.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I am having a good time with it. I don't feel that it's measurably different. To me, this show has always been some variety of this. A bunch of different character studies kind of overlapping, kind of not. Various boiling points reaching their temperature over a handful of episodes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I don't really consider white Lotus to be a super plot heavy show, which is why the, the kind of dangling bait of the dead bodies is always like such a fun and silly part of it. Cause it's so clear what's happening there, but I'm never really waiting for white Lotus to like explode. Like maybe I'm waiting for some characters to bump up into each other in a different way.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
You know, like we've, we've gotten all these hints about like Tim and Rick, for example, how much they dislike each other. And it's like, at some point they're going to collide. I, at least I would hope in a way that's kind of fun and interesting. And I'm, I'm eager to see it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
But I'm not I'm not waiting for the next plot development in White Lotus, the show about a bunch of rich people at a luxury resort sitting around and pulling each other apart. I'm just kind of watching them pull each other apart.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I would say two things, too, in the defense of people who are feeling the pace at this point and feeling it as a bit of more of a slow presentation. We've now gotten like three episodes in a row of Rick talking about going to Bangkok, but not going to Bangkok. And we've gotten at least two episodes of people talking about the full moon party, but not actually being at the full moon party.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
And so there is a little bit more of a lead up in terms of some of those events that I'm hoping will really pay off when we get there. But there's been some some serious prelude for those things.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
We are indeed. We're covering White Lotus, obviously. That's why we're here today. We will be taping an episode of The Pit that we'll be dropping in the indeterminate future. Great. Covering through episode 11. Cannot wait. We've been getting, Jo, a lot of people clamoring for our specific takes on The Pit, on some of the big revelations of the recent episodes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I'm just saying, I woke up, poured myself a cup of coffee, opened the old Prestige TV email box, and was met with a startling number of emails about whether British men are circumcised or not. Who am I to dispute people's area of expertise? But I'm just saying, it's been a very normal one over here for the last couple of days.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
What a tease. What a setup, Jo.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
This is why you're a pro. I will say this. Yeah, I have no idea whether it's real or not. It does seem like in this show, which is not shy about male nudity, it has been almost exclusively prosthetics. And in fact, I was watching an interview with Steve Zahn where he was talking about his prosthetic junk for season one. What was interesting to me was not that it was a prosthetic.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
That's pretty common. It was that he was presented with the prosthetic by Mike White to say, like, do you give the sign off on this prosthetic junk for yourself? So regardless if it is Jason Isaacs in all his glory or not, it is what he and many craftspeople believe that Tim Ratliff looks like.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Yeah. Look forward to our future video on the prestige on the Ringer TV YouTube channel where we all take lorazepam and just kind of just coast through it together.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I do want to do a lorazepod. I think it'd make for great content.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
A lot going on in the ER, to say the least. And of course, we're covering Severance. Every week, all week, the emails are streaming in. They are increasingly unhinged. I'm loving every second of it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
So very much so. But the anxiety is already high for Victoria. On the on the sweat front, it's going to take some worked out sweat Goggins in this episode who is just moist, perpetually moist. Yeah. But she could potentially catch up, you know, if she goes into some shutters and sweating here.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I could really see it for her. Regardless, look, our girl needs needs help getting through like two conversations on the yacht.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
She's going to come crashing back down to Earth real fast.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
But she was already popping the lorazepam at the resort eating the melon.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
Just to take the edge off to take the edge off.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
The cringe as she's watching these guys and their younger Thai girlfriends from across the boat is wonderful.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 4 Deep Dive and Theories: Rick’s Revenge in Bangkok
I also love the reaction to the reaction when she prompts the one Australian guy if he and his girlfriend are married. And he sighs so hard, I thought he might pass out. Just the mere question being posed, not appreciative of it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
And you are but a mere visitor, despite the fact that I actually know nothing about what it means to be here and live here or practice this faith at all.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Exactly. Yeah, you're approaching people you think may have murdered a woman you met several years ago and they give you a blank stairwell in response. That's the kind of nightmare you have.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Without a doubt. I mean, I'm excited for the yacht trip over there and all the exciting possibilities, especially as it seems like our groups are going to be intermingling a little bit in some potentially surprising ways. And we already get the developing...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
love may be strong, lust triangle between Greg Gary, Chloe, and Saxon, who have now been officially formally introduced and maybe raising some eyebrows at each other over one of them being a douche. Look, who am I to judge if someone has a type? You know, they're into what they're into. But... All of these people are going to be in one space with potentially as many rat lifts as want to come.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I think Rick is assumingly going to be off in Bangkok, which is unfortunate because I would love to see him get after it at the rave. I think the raving characters I am most excited about are those you would not anticipate ever ending up at a rave. So Victoria at a rave. Let's fucking go. Honestly, Gary at a rave. I want to see what this guy is up to.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Nobody's guy.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
It did seem slightly more plausible this week.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I still don't think White Lotus is that kind of show. And honestly, Mike White has seemed over the years so conflicted about the murder part of White Lotus that the idea of wiping out half the cast in a mass murder doesn't seem like what he is interested in. But I am willing and able to be surprised, clearly.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
And I didn't even think about the outdoor shower, the falling risks of the outdoor shower while hopped up on the Razzapam. Yeah, it's a great theory. I think there's a very reasonable chance of that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I think based on this week, I'm going to say yes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Well, clearly not, or else she would be having a more outsized response.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
feels like it aligns with the show i mean this is a show that talks about privilege that talks about class like if you thought you were tuning into white lotus to get away from the political sphere uh i don't know what show you've been watching and you are sadly mistaken unfortunately like this is a show that deals with the economic realities of these people and what they care about and don't care about what they value and don't value
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Putting the name Trump in there to me is just an extension of that. In this case, like a very sharp dividing wedge between these three women, one of whom is, you know, she's not a Republican, Joe. She is an independent. Let's let's let's be very honest about everything that's happening here. We really want to talk about Trump tonight. OK, the bless your heart magic that plays across Kate's face.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Yep.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Unbelievable acting from Bibb here.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
That said, Kate has said that she's from Austin.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I think... This is what someone would say if they are from the area more broadly. I'm going to guess it's more Lakeway Bee Cave like that. That's the kind of vibe that I'm getting from Kate's overall deal, which, as we can infer, is like country club husband, like corporate high life.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
You know, she is she's living a kind of privileged existence that is not demographically Austin, but is certainly adjacent to Austin. Like there's a lot of very white, very affluent, very conservative parts around the city proper.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Far, far away. The last thing you would want is to be on his radar at that point.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
So can, can you expand please?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
How does that make you feel that that's the energy that you put out into the world?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I think it is, too. I think it's it's so powerful in that way because you're right. These are three women who have a lot of things in common at the same time are in quite different places, but they are paired off in all of those fascinating ways. I hadn't even thought about the career like the careerist aspect and how Jacqueline and Lori might have that potentially in common.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
And we we get to see them spend some quality time together, if at Kate's expense for a lot of this episode.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
But like it's cool to see all of these different ways in which it is naturally two versus one in every possible direction within this friend group. And that only works if it feels balanced. If you're going to create this dynamic like you could write the show around having a very clear in group out group.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
But it's more interesting if it's sort of a revolving door and one of them is always feeling a little bit left out of whatever is happening.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
A lot of masculine feminine in this episode, like very directly called out.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
It feels like a real swooping in situation for Jacqueline, potentially. I liked what you mentioned, Joe, on the Sunday pod about the flex of Jacqueline here. It's not just pushing Lori, but let me help you set this up. Let me make this happen for you. Not dissimilar from what Saxon is doing with Lockie, right? Like all hands on deck. Like, I'm going to hook you up.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I'm going to show you how to do this. And the dynamic between the two women is a little different, but it is very much like pushing in a way that feels like projecting, in a way that feels like Jacqueline really wants to sleep with Valentin. And you can imagine a scenario where maybe Lori does get some confidence. Maybe she does end up pursuing Valentin.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
But in all of this... Laurie is feeling like a little tentative at the beginning of this episode about that very idea. She talks about how, you know what, he probably wouldn't even want it anyway, Joe. He probably wouldn't be interested in someone like me.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Meanwhile, in real life. I don't know if you caught this last week, but Carrie Coon went on the Marin podcast and was talking about her relationship with the legend Tracy Letts, their marriage. Yeah. There was a bit of a misunderstanding where listeners thought she had nodded in the direction of like, actually, maybe we have an open marriage, maybe of an open relationship.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Listener, let me tell you, the Internet fucking exploded. So Carrie, Carrie Coon herself getting lots of interest from parties. She is not even remotely interested in reciprocating. Our girl Lori is just going through it, though. She doesn't she doesn't seem to understand her appeal to the world.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
She had to issue a follow-up statement in which she said that her relationship, she described it as open-minded, describing their kind of more modern sensibilities across the board, not open. And of note for our White Lotus purposes, in that statement, did the speak no, hear no, see no evil monkey emojis all lined up?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Is it good gorilla marketing? Is it good monkey marketing?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
It brought an incredible light to my life to see Goggins in charmer mode again. And this is relatively muted by Goggins standards. I'm actually starting to believe that Rick has a perpetual migraine commentary and that it's maybe not just an excuse to get out of these conversations because he always seems very burdened by something. Very burdened by...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Clearly his upbringing, I'm sure some level of constant anxiety. Like my guy needs to smoke so fucking bad in this episode that he has to go on a whole ass odyssey to get some weed. Yeah. So I understand where he's coming from, but he can turn it on when he needs to turn it on.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
And it's certainly enough to kind of start putting his plan in motion here with Sritala as far as how do we get to Bangkok? Sritala. Sritala. Sorry. Just kidding. Tough scenes for Fabian in this episode as well. You think you know somebody. You think you know how to pronounce their name. Turns out you've been mistaken for a very long time.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
But yeah, Rick is getting where he needs to go, ultimately. And as far as Chelsea's part of that, I will say... Probably knows more than she's letting on and is more aware of what is happening. I think just kind of like letting everything roll off her back and allowing the universe to play out as it does.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
But she seems too perceptive to be oblivious to the fact that Rick is weird and shady and is like doing all these random little jobs all the time. He's doing something.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I mean, it seems quite lush. Imagine not knowing who Jason Isaacs is if he shows up at your front door. That's a tough beat, but an acting coach to have.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
But look, there's plenty in this for her, right? Like she gets to be at this nice resort. She gets to experience this kind of life and enjoy all the privileges of it. Like, It is interesting to hear that, though, that maybe at one point in time they had an arrangement and now it seems like they have a relationship. Right. Like her using soulmate, her talking about being his life partner. Right.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
That is a maybe overstating what their relationship is from Rick's perspective, but I think is indicative of a certain level of seriousness as far as what they are to each other.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
We are available, by the way, for voice cameos. If you need a 911 dispatcher, a concerned lawyer, a panicking co-worker as the office is being raided by the FBI, for all of your projects. I don't want to speak for you, Joe, but I think we would be interested. We would take the meeting.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Right.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Kind of kind of a different different breed of people pleaser from Lockie. There's like the version where you try to like mediate conflict or step out of it in the way he does. And she is a de-escalator in a totally different way. Like she can bring people together. She can talk them down. She can make Rick perk up in spots here and there in a way that no one else can.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Bless Chelsea and her presence on this show. It's wonderful every single time. And in very good spirits for someone who just got bitten by a fucking liberated Cobra Cobra.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
You're someone who seems like you should know things about astrology and also someone who looks like they would be receptive to a Lyft driver's rants.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
We truly do.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I imagine I don't look like somebody who would know something about astrology.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
But sometimes our preconceptions are correct. And I, in fact, do not. Not my area of expertise.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Cancer.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
You just say something vague and ominous and I'll go along with it. You know, a water sign. Emotional. I don't know. I don't know the specifics of what it means to be a cancer, but I'm sure our listeners can let us know. Please. We didn't mention a top. Please do email us about anything going on with White Lotus. Prestige TV at Spotify dot com or more importantly, monkey shootout at Gmail dot com.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I think it depends on the way that she kind of weaves into the story of these other characters, right? If she is just sort of the person who owns the hotel and vaguely interacts and sometimes performs and then dies, that's not super interesting.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
But if strange things happen in Bangkok, if she becomes even more intertwined with the fancies, even more intertwined with Rick in whatever game he's playing here...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
and rick as he's kind of kind of gearing up to talk to her in the first place there's so much like rick snake stuff happening in this episode overall but yeah he's very like predatory in terms of the way he's almost like stalking her to her table like kind of yeah judging the scene waiting for his moment and i don't know how to interpret that within the context of whether she dies or not but certainly as far as the game he's playing it it does make sense
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
First of all, would never go to a snake show.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
No circumstances.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
He's great. Good information. Great delivery. Knows his way around a cobra. I would trust those guys with my life. I just don't want to go to the snake show.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
tries to parlay getting pistol whipped in the head into a bodyguard job. Okay. He gets no indication whatsoever that sweet Allah is interested in him being her bodyguard. No, no affirmation, whatever, like whatsoever, but that does not stop him from flagging down Mook as she's talking with her friends and walking with her friends to give her this non update about his life.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Very important to him that she knows all about it. Uh, hollinger's bodyguards then come to him and ask him to please chill in fact maybe you were closing to closer to losing your job than getting promoted to being a bodyguard the character of that conversation how would you describe it they come to bully him
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I'm going to say some people... Mr. Big Guy? Some people deserve to be bullied sometimes, Joe. This guy is... I hate your anti-guy talk agenda.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
He is way too big for his britches right now when all that he did was fail in his job. Like, the stance that he should maybe be fired for this, I actually think is pretty reasonable, right? Like, he had one job, and it's don't let cars zoom in and out of here, and he did both.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
No, I want to interrogate a little bit because I think a lot of people interpret Mook's reactions to guy talk in which she is very smiley and I think generally friendly as her being interested in his advances. She has expressed no such interest at any point to anything he has said. It has all been a polite smile, a nod. I will see you later. A very friendly exchange. She's being polite to him.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
And he is going way hard all the time in a way that, to me, spells trouble.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Her brothers, all that stuff.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
But he he made that pitch and I would not say she jumped at it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
They might have the, like, look, if both of us are single in 20 years, let's figure this thing out kind of arrangement. But I don't see this going well for guy talk.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Just broadly speaking? Pro if it exists. Ambiguous to me if it does. But I'm open to the possibility.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I mean, it's lovely. Belinda had herself a day. Yeah. The Gary business aside, she gets a great treatment. She gets shown around the grounds. She gets to spend some quality time with Porchai being held tenderly in a pool. What is the going rate for that? Or is that kind of an off-menu thing? Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I'm just saying it seems nice. I would do it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
If Pornchart would volunteer at my expense to hold me tenderly in a pool and help me kind of levitate and float, that sounds like a lovely afternoon.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Yeah. Could you kind of identify what you think she was reacting to? Because it's hard to tell sometimes amid an amazing score. I love the score of White Lotus. And we get the kind of like calls of the wild in like the monkey scene.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
like sounds of the jungle sense and also some like calls of the wild and every other conceivable sense happening in that score uh so it's very loud moaning very loud moaning happening you know through yoga during some of these scenes where characters are alone and kind of steaming about each other in various ways so i i don't quite know what she's identifying it sounds like maybe kind of like a creaking door like a step on wood like i couldn't quite identify it
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
You don't know. It could be anything.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
And I have to say, Jung really went off with this one. Really, really knew what he was doing.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
This is a very primal fear that I have had. I have not had nightmares about this, but it's one of those things where you read that news story, or in my case, it was on the local news or something when I was eight years old, and it gets wedged in your brain. And then what are you to do about toilet snakes? You're defenseless.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Are they coming out of gutters or where are they coming from?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
How did you feel, Joe, about Rick as someone who believes very deeply in the freedom of snakes, you know, a liberator at the end of the day?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Which I would think we have to see again. Right. It was so pointedly on camera that it's like we will see it on someone and that'll give us a tip as to who may have committed the robbery.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Chelsea, you cannot fix that cobra. You cannot fix him.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
No, please. Sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I do wonder this about Rick, though, because you're right about the metaphor, which is very clear on the surface. Him in the cage, the snakes in the cage, him feeling restrained in that way. But as he's kind of talking it out with Chelsea, there's a lot of discussion about snakes being inherently evil. Right.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
And you get this bit from Rick about, well, even evil things shouldn't be treated like shit because it only makes them more evil. And as a reflection of people treating him a certain way because of what he admits are the bad things that he's done, we don't really know what those are yet.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Understandable. Putting it in context and understanding his worldview as it applies to whatever he's after with Hollinger is a little bit more complicated because we have every indication, Joe, that you were correct, that Rick is trying to get some kind of revenge from
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
It's satisfaction, some kind of satisfaction, as he says, a lot of signs pointing directly to the idea that Hollinger probably murdered his father. There was involved in some way and he's looking for satisfaction. But in that case, is Hollinger not also a snake? Is he not also someone who is not inherently evil and like shouldn't be shouldn't be met with purely evil in response?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Oh, I thought you meant dual language. But you mean, like, dual language.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I thought you were talking about the other kinds of satisfaction that Chelsea is hooking him up with.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
This is not the show for it. The bit of foreshadowing I am most concerned with at this point is not a dead body. It's not Chelsea almost dying several times in this episode. It's her holding up a tank that says, you break it, you buy it, with a broken heart on it and saying, should I buy this? It just does not seem like things are going to go well for her at the end of the day.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
And I hope Rick, snake or not, makes some kind of choice that makes sense for both of them. I just, I don't know.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
She would have pre-White Lotus if you told me and you gave me this prompt and you told me the general construction of the show. Parker Posey would be my first round pick. So dreams really do come true.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I'm going to say we might have to like step out of time a little bit just because some of the cast of these movies are getting quite up there. And so it would limit them to basically being like elderly grandparental figures popping into these stories, which would also be fine. And I would be open to.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
To me, the guest I would love.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
fred willard on this show as sort of like an ecstatic overly friendly in everyone's business kind of guest in a way that i thought we don't get often enough right we have a lot of rich people who kind of want to be in their little pods and not enough of them who want aggressively to be friends with everyone and i would love him in a in a context like this except for kate who was like remember we were at that
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
But she doesn't even want to be friends. She just wants to make the social connection and get the capital and then go back to her table.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Can you imagine the bean talk at that baby shower? It was off the charts.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Our old friend and recent friend, Joe, Bob Balaban, feels like he would be great to work the staff at the White Lotus.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
He reads as neurotic and exacting so easily that the idea of a bunch of rich, privileged guests winding him up is not a stretch of the imagination.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
He's often quite disgruntled, honestly.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I feel like Eugene Levy and Catherine O'Hara have already done like crass rich person pretty recently.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Like we've seen it admittedly in a slightly different flavor, but let's branch it out a little bit.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I had just had a bit of a feeling with Chloe, who's played by Charlotte Le Bon, as far as like she was registering in my brain is very familiar and I couldn't put a finger on why. And in this episode, it finally kind of clicked for me that she has such a Winona Ryder thing going on.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Just like a kind of a resemblance in a way, very different energies, very different kind of places in terms of like this is not a Winona part. But there's there's some kind of similarity there that's grabbing me.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Oh, yes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
What do we think of Chloe and Saxon? We wouldn't really remark upon their budding friendship.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I hear you're a douche. But she's into it, you know?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
She's into something. She's into the idea of it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I cannot bring myself to root for them, but I will be watching with great curiosity where their relationship goes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
You know, I take this with great consideration. I've thought about it. I've talked to my agents. I will not be hosting the Creep Radar podcast, despite the fact that it was so graciously offered to me.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I have not. But also, who simply has the time? You know, there are so many creeps. There are only so many hours in the day. I could not be bothered.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Creep Radar.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
All because I am empirically increasingly right about guy talk. That should qualify me for the job, but I don't want it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Well, there's so much posturing happening, especially among people of this kind of class. And I think you're right to point out Victoria's statement about trashy rich people versus non-trashy rich people. Because not only in the collective unconscious sense is there this like generational passing of humanity and understanding and shared experience.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
There's also like a pervasive broad humanity that we are all tapping into together collectively. Right. And so this idea that we are drawing these very strict defining lines between us that, you know, Tim Ratliff couldn't possibly be the kind of person who takes drugs. He couldn't possibly be the kind of person who takes a nap because who would do such a thing?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
And yet it's just very important to so many of these people that they appear in the world in a very particular way. And that's, I would think, what gets in the way of your ability to tap into the collective unconscious if it's out there.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Would do, have done, not my preference, but I think it depends on the size of the pill.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
For me, it was much more him putting the pill on a hotel couch cushion and then putting it directly in his mouth. That was what stuck out to me about that sequence.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I'm Rob Mahoney.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
But it's not a good sign if you're taking slow motion showers as far as your overall state of mind.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I mean, only as an application post-pool or post-ocean. As like a general daily practice, I don't really see it for myself.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Yeah, I'm open to some windows, but I want a closed environment.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I mean, starting with Tim, I agree with you, Lazapam. Tim is a wonderful television invention. I enjoyed watching him go from basically fully clenched, mentally shredding his own brain with anxiety into absolutely blissed out slash napped out. That was just a great transition point for the show, and I can't wait to see where it goes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I'm a little worried we're getting into leaving Las Vegas territory with Tim, where it's like, He's seeing the end of the line. He's starting to make some pretty dramatic moves. He wants the phones in the bag. Well, he didn't want to be cut off from the outside world, but he certainly wanted everyone else to now that his little white collar secret has escaped containment, right?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
It's no longer him gathering information. It's people calling in. There's agents at the office. What the fuck is happening? Everyone is panicking. Everyone is freaking out. And I will say the most tragic offshoot of that to me is him taking Saxon aside and Saxon finally getting his sweet, sweet moment of daddy affirmation.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I'm doing great. I don't have any dreams of note to mark down as far as to parse their meaning. Do you have any dreams you want to pick apart today?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
And it is basically all so that he will shut up and put his phone in the bag. It's just it's a really tough look and a really tough moment for admittedly a contemptible character, but one who only wants one thing and it's daddy's approval.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
He wants a couple things. He wants a couple things. I want to step back.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Of course, metaphorically speaking. But one of our listeners, Bree, emailed in with an interesting thought that I had not considered, which is what if what exposed Tim Ratliff's crimes in the first place was something like Saxon's incompetence at work, right? What if Saxon, our guy who... He's very Vincent Adultman in the way he talks about his job. Like, I love work so much. I love job.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
I love being this guy. Doesn't seem to know what he is doing for a living. I would imagine is not very good at it. Would not surprise me one bit if an email sent to the wrong place by Saxon ended up resulting in this kind of investigation or ended up kind of moving some of the wheels in motion as far as how Tim ultimately got here.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Well, let me ask you this. Saxon brings up the very primal idea of having nightmares about fire and snakes. I can't say I've ever had a nightmare about fire and snakes. Are you a snake dreamer?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
And what's going to happen to her when she runs out, right? Once Tim has consumed, once he's popped every pill there is to pop. I worry about Victoria at this point.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Sober Victoria.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Which I would say is a critical part of why the show works the way it does. Like you can't just have the preachy person off to the side commenting on everyone. It's so much more interesting when those characters themselves can be co-opted, are susceptible to why everyone is here in the first place.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
Yeah, that was such an interesting sequence for her because she goes, you know, she is greeted by this very friendly monk with a MacBook. A monk book. She makes her appointment.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
And then just breezes on out. And like what my my understanding from her from both of these sequences, when she first goes to visit the temple and when she returns here and is like seems pretty deeply incurious, honestly.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
For somebody who wants to be potentially spending a year here in a program, furthering her education, deepening her spirituality, she makes her appointment and then she doesn't even bother to look around to talk to anyone else to even kind of take in the scene. It's like, oh, job done. I'm up out of here.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘The White Lotus’ Season 3, Episode 3 Deep Dive and Theories: Trumpism in the Friend Group
So she even kind of shoots a little glance to the tourists who are there, you know, in a way that's like a tiny little throwaway moment. But to me is very aloof and like, aha, like I am I am of this environment. Like I will soon be a member of this place.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Or you won't be liable for any of those things. Right. I think there's all of these corporate benefits to abusing your employees to an inch of their life and then them not remembering it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And that is one of the big questions raised by this episode. We see Gemma going through all of these very unique torture mechanisms effectively, right? Ways to create negative emotion in her.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
We already know, as you just said, that severance is strong enough to withstand the physical, emotional, psychic pain of childbirth. We know that it's effective on that level to the point that a new mom would have zero memory of the labor she just experienced. Mm-hmm. And so what are we doing here?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Like the limits already seem quite high, but I would say the incredible distinction within this episode is we have gone so far beyond innies and outies at this point. Like Gemma is going into each of these rooms with a distinct consciousness.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
If you say so, Jo. I don't know that that's going to happen today, but we're going to try.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
A distinct persona where the version of her that is going to the dentist just left the dentist. And the version of her that's going on the plane just left the plane. And they are just living in a loop of that exact thing over and over and over. And so Gemma's consciousness, unlike Mark or Dylan or Irving or anybody else, is fractured into who knows how many pieces.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Has not been inside. What do you think is in there, Jo? I don't know. Is it a room of puppies? What do you think is happening?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Well, real talk on that front. I think it's not hard, given the structure of the show, to draw a line between what is happening in these rooms and, say, the four tempers that we've been put right before us so often in Severance. And if that is the case, we're getting all negative emotions in this episode. We're getting the Christmas card thank you writing. We're getting the plane turbulence.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
We're getting the two-hour dental exam. We're not getting anything that looks a lot like frolic, I'll say that. And so I'm not ruling out the possibility that whatever's happening in Cold Harbor could be a positive emotion.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
No, I'm not feeling good about it. I'm just saying this is a thing that is possible. But if the end game of this sort of severance is shielding out negative feelings, there will be no need to sever out positive feelings. So it's probably still absolute shit, whatever is happening in there. But the absence of frolic is noted.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Certainly will.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
We have to.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I would love to. Even gem might be strong. I would say it's overall quite an uneven show. Patchy. Quite patchy Joss Whedon series that is about, not unlike Severance, the creation of a technology. Except in this case, it's a technology in which you can program a person.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And clients will hire the company that owns this technology to program these people, these dolls, into whatever they want them to be, whatever persona they want them to have. And so, yeah, Deshaun Lockman spends that whole series going episode to episode in wildly different personas, doing wildly different things.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Spoiler alert, many of the clients just want to have sex with these people with very specific kinks or very specific personalities or appearances. And so there's something certainly in my brain about watching Deetchan Lockman put on wigs, put on outfits, put on heels, go to room after room after room and be subjected to torture that certainly feels a lot like dollhouse to me.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
At exactly this thing.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Their ability to transmute into exactly what they need to be for over-year characterization.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
That would be my read on it. I think it's fair, if not entirely founded by the subtext of the show, to think that maybe she was straight up taken, right? That she did go not to execute a charade, but to go play charades. Like she was honestly going to her friend's house. And based on Maurer's appearance earlier, as you said, at the fertility clinic, like there was a scouting process
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And I'll say a lot of great theories, a lot of great Bardo discussion on this pod and the exciting debut of Joanna Robinson, NBA podcaster, which is something that I hold near and dear to my heart. So thank you for joining our space.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
like recruitment effort happening, the mailers, like there's something happening here that is, I'm sure, subconscious, right? That is them trying to influence her in some ways to do what it is they want. We don't exactly know yet, other than to be here and be a guinea pig.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And so this is the sort of big like A or B to me about this episode is did, was Gemma taken by Lumen or did she choose to leave and got more than she bargained for? I think it's much more likely to be that outcome.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I would say a couple of data points on that front. We do hear in some of the dialogue between Drummond and Maurer that Gemma has tried to break Maurer's fingers before. Like she has tried to escape her captivity before. So she did not sign up to be a guinea pig indefinitely.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Also, I don't know if we want to get into Russian literature corner this early. Oh, I do. But we simply must. And if we're going to talk about the death of Ivan Ilyich, a story about how maybe being dead isn't always just being dead, but living in a way that is untrue to yourself and unfulfilling in a way that makes you dead before you actually die.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
It's name-checked several times in this episode, specifically with Gemma, who is teaching Russian literature. And I don't know how to read that final exchange with Mark and the slow deterioration of their relationship other than a woman who is dying, even if she is not actually dead.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
It's a team effort. Look, the best podcasts are two-handers or three-handers, you know? Like, we're all working together in this.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And Rigabi gets one in this episode. What are, like, fourth different she is alive variation at this point?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
You know, I don't know. It's hard to say. I think one of the interesting images to reference on that is the thank you cards, which by the time we see her writing one is so illegible. Yes. Like not not does not look like understandable writing in any sense. And is that granted?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Because she has now written hundreds of thank you cards and her hand is cramped beyond like any kind of recognition in the thing she is writing. Or is there something going on with Gemma? more existentially, more spiritually? Is there something going on with the sub-severed brain that she's now working with where she is losing some of her fine motor skills?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
She's losing control of some of the, even the verbal elements that as an academic would come so easily to her.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Taking the Tolstoy elements and taking the Chakai Bardo specifically, really the idea of a Bardo, right? This not just transition stage, but one that involves the acceptance of death. I see that as a pretty clear indication of where Gemma is throughout this episode. And we cover a lot of time. We cover the nature of her entire relationship with Mark, basically front to back.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I'm sure there's plenty of things missing and we may get those gaps filled in over the course of future episodes. But this is someone who is coming to terms or has already come to terms in a way with the death of, if not who she is, then certainly her relationship and certainly the person she was with Mark.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Also, this is a little extra textural. So if you don't like kind of cast interviews, maybe skip ahead a little bit. Basically, everyone making this show has been incredibly emphatic to the point of insulting that this is not a clone situation. So maybe that's them all covering up for the thing that they know to be true. But at this point, I think it's much less likely.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
So deeply conflicted about those outcomes and also deeply conflicted about as we're going through what is happening in the mechanics of this show. And like, like, again, I would argue that Gemma is dead in a lot of senses. that she is not the person that she was, that she is going through a kind of spiritual and existential transition, if not a physical death in the way that Mark understands it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And Severance is so good at having it both ways. It's so good at making us ask a lot of these questions. And we kind of jumped straight into the mysteries of this week's episode and the substantial answers of this week's episode.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I don't want to zoom past the fact that not only is this the best episode of Severance, Jo, I think it is the best episode of any show that you and I have covered together. I just think this is masterful, astonishing, staggering work.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Like, Hall of Fame stuff in its own category, but active shows... It's definitely top five.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I think it's just... It's perfect in the way that is... This is the kind of story that can only be told with soft sci-fi, right? There are these incredibly human elements in there. There are these wonderful sci-fi constructions, including...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Maybe most heartbreakingly, the fact that Gemma does stage this huge escape, finally gets her jailbreak moment, and turns into Miss Casey as soon as she gets out of the elevator, which is just an incredibly gutting turn of events. And then is returned to the floor without ever even seeing what's on the other side or knowing what happened.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I completely agree with that. Yeah, I don't want to overstate the death thing so much as I think that that's the experience Gemma was going through in the outside world as her relationship was falling apart, as she was dealing with the infertility. And then she gets to this hellscape and these torture rooms.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
episode seven so um there's perhaps a stale take or two uh in that interview that that does not hold up post uh episode seven but some big picture theory from one of the masters of the craft of these sorts of puzzle box shows on how to do it and what you should be looking for and kind of how how these strands are pulled together which holy hell joe a lot of strands being pulled together this week a lot of things happening this week on severance
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And our experience with this episode, I mean, we get answers to some of the biggest questions that Severance has been posing, including, what is Gemma alive, period?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I guess that's a question mark. Where is she? What has her existence been like? What was Mark and Gemma's life like before we met them, or at least met Mark over the course of the show? Yeah. It's answering all those questions while raising the emotional stakes in such a huge way.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And it's doing it in this really electric fashion that makes you reconsider basically everything we've seen in the show. I've been going back and just thinking about so many different scenes and so many different characters and so many different interactions, knowing what we know now.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And it just, it feels like, even though the show is exciting, even though we were thrilled to cover it every week, like, it has new life now after watching this episode.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Which, standing fucking ovation, genuinely. Like, incredible, incredible work, especially for, granted, a longtime director of photography, cinematographer, but first time directing credit on this show.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
This is where the two inner Robs are at battle. Because there is the inner Rob that loves... monochromatic design.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And I'm looking at that bookshelf. I'm like, there's something aesthetically pleasing about the order of this, but also soul crushing about the lack of life in it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And I think you're really onto something with that. Again, especially for someone who like their home is so bookish. It is so like riddled with plant life and sunlight and like the steepling is off the charts. Like there's just so much happening in those flashbacks from a filmmaking perspective and a setback perspective.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I am preconditioned to love a kaleidoscopic, bittersweet view of a relationship.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Rise and fall. Like that's just going to hit me. That's going to work for me basically every time.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I don't know that anyone wants to identify as being a Blue Valentine kind of guy, but perhaps I am. I think it's just executed at such a high level here to the point of transcending whatever you think about these sorts of montages. Joe, we have official dead dog wife territory here, which is something that usually you and I roll our eyes at.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
But here it is executed to such a beautiful and wonderful effect. I simply cannot.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Where's the ant farm in West Wing?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I would love to think that that's the case.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
On the litigation of whether this is an official dead dog wife montage or not, can it be if Jim is not dead?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
They can always find us at PrestigeTV at Spotify.com. But in particular, you can find us at PineappleBobbing at Gmail.com.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I gotta say, Jo, at this point, my Persephone's and my Eurydice's are getting crossed. There's so much hell imagery going on and so many different roles that Gemma is playing within this show to various characters and these kind of mythological archetypal constructs. My head is spinning.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Not a lot of Heli in this episode, obviously. Right. One thing I want to flag on pregnancy watch. Not our favorite subject. I don't know how Helly or Helena will be pregnant three days after having sex with both Marks. I don't know how any of this works. I don't know if that's where we're going to go. I was struck a little bit by Gemma's miscarriage.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And she's in the shower, sat on the floor, holding her legs in almost exactly the same position and fashion we saw Helly last week in the hall when she's removed her shoes and is kind of going through a crisis. And look, Severance loves a mirror. Severance loves recursion. Severance loves playing Gemma and Helly opposite each other, visually speaking.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I don't know what to make of any of that, but I think we got to throw it out there.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I mean, no Daniel Craig around to suck her fingers, but you know.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Maybe. I think it certainly could speak to the state of their relationship by the end. I want to say this. We get...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
this incredible, not just montage sequence, but the scene spliced throughout the entire episode of them stage by stage from these two professors falling in love at the blood drive to their amazing, adorable house and this life that they're building together to this, like two prospective parents who are struggling with the process of that and trying to figure out how to be there for each other.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And then as people who are just deeply, deeply in pain and drifting apart so, so clearly, like right out from under each other's grasp. Yeah. And I think one of the things that I love about this episode is we get a very new understanding of Mark and who he was at the time when he was with Gemma.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Oh, you have it. No, I actually want to talk about that other woman. I have some revised thoughts, but let's get to that as we talk about the music later in this episode.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Again, we simply must. One of the most immediately contemptible characters in terms of just speed from introduction to hatred that I can remember seeing on TV.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Okay. I thought we won you over. But look, I support you living your truest life, even if it is one that's riddled with bacteria.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I'm going to claim victory on those not being dental tools because they are torture devices. He is not a dentist.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
He's just a guy jabbing her teeth.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
It's certainly really creepy. And when he sort of parrots back the I love you catch as she's trying to leave the Christmas card room, just...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
It seems like it might be. Or they are able to in some way view or listen to or reconstruct some of Mark's memories based on his MDR work. I don't know exactly what's happening there. What is clear is he seems to be relishing playing house with her and the power that he wields over her. It's so disgusting. In a really like...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Honestly, my whole body just recoils watching his scenes, which is an incredible performance, and I think is sold in part by the demeanor, is in part sold by, like, Robbie Benson's just, like, piercing eyes in his presentation in this episode. It's just a perfect affect for a creepy doctor you want to hate.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And the absolute rage that swelled up inside me when he is telling her the lie about Mark moving on in the outside world. And has a daughter. Yeah. I would like to think that I have seen enough TV and movies to not be so moved by something like that, but I felt so angry.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
We should say, I don't think we've noted yet, that was the Allentown room, which was the file that Mark completed in record time, just prior to season one.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
A surprising amount of music commentary happening.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
You want to believe that Mark is just so damaged he can't have a functional relationship with a normal person. But revisiting it, and especially through this lens, right? That is diegetic music that's being pumped into the restaurant for their date. As this woman is being very understanding, asking Mark to talk about his dead ex-wife on basically their first date.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And she's connected to the birthing retreat and maybe even connected to how Miss Cobell gets hooked up with Devin in the first place for the lactation consultancy, the fraudulent lactation consultancy.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
An epidemic in this country.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
It certainly feels like it. And I would say even more so in conjunction with another email we got, Joe, from Adeline, who pointed out that the music that's playing in the Chinese restaurant when Helen and Mark meet in the outside world is the same music that's being played during the egg bar social in season one within the severed floor. And so well-observed all around.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
A little less. I don't like a low microwave, like one that's built into an island or built into low cabinetry, per se. But if it's, say, a miniature convection oven and not a microwave, then I'm back on board.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
There's these big pointing arrows to the idea that Lumen is running so much more of the outside world than we even may have understood based on the long grasp of a company this big.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And now it really feels like that date and that whole conversation and everything that he's... Most of the people that he's been involved with outside are in some way prompting him to remember Gemma, think about Gemma. They are trying to keep the memory of her alive forever.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I advocate for other hobbies other than that, even if it involves a little light B&E.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Also, just from a word cloud perspective, Carousel is jumping out at me because it also appears in this Billie Holiday version of I'll Be Missing You. There's a lyric specifically about, sorry, I'll be seeing you.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
It's like listing out all of these places in which you would see someone that you're missing. In the cafe, in the park across the way, the children's carousel. And with that song too, I think it plays just so beautifully as Mark going through his version of grief and how he would see Gemma or how he would experience the loss of Gemma in his life.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Uncultured swine that we are. We did not realize the design significance of these mid-century modern grinders.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And also Gemma, whether she knows it or not, and I suspect not, reliving... these horrible torture scenarios, but also in Allentown specifically, something that is so specific to her, right? This idea that she hates writing these thank you notes. And so she is living a hell in his memory based on what he knows that she hates to do.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And how twisted that idea is for a big company like Lumen to wield that against somebody.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And doesn't have to do it. She's not going to remember anything about the way you look. And in fact, I would argue, for scientific purposes, might be more constructive if you didn't look different. You know, control one of the variables here.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I don't think so. I think it is canonically understood that her name is Gemma Scout.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
No, I don't. But I think if it was something of macro note, like if she was Gemma Egan, he would have already had a lot of reactions to her being an Egan because he knows Helena Egan.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I thought that this was one of my favorite parts about the overall flashback construction is how different all four of them are and how different definitely... Mark is laughing at Rickon's jokes. Like, that's how far we have come from the people that they used to be. I adored that sequence.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I think just striking that we, yeah, we never hear the word pregnant in this episode. We never hear the word miscarriage. We never hear the words fertility clinic. And yet it's all very clear what is happening because the filmmaking is that strong. Like you absolutely do not need to do that. And it's a testament to what Severance holds back in its execution.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Obviously, from a question and answer standpoint, it holds back quite a lot. But there are all of these little openings where because you're not explicating, you let emotion and you let character fill that moment.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I don't think I do.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Always, Jo.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I think that's definitely there. I also think there's the read where the severed floor itself is the river forgetting where she like she is going into the space where as soon as she gets there, she forgets who she is and becomes Miss Casey.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And the only way she's going to find her way out is presumably with someone like Mark's help. we're told in this episode Drummond kind of chides Mauer about the idea that when she does go into Cold Harbor, you're going to have to say goodbye to Gemma, right? So we know something dramatic is going to happen in there. I'm guessing, again, it's not the puppy room.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I know. Yeah, he's totally cool with it. I'm sure it's not going to be an issue.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
But yeah, to get out of here, she is probably going to have to pass through the severed floor as Miss Casey in some fashion. It doesn't seem like there's any other way out. And so in doing so, that feels very Eurydice to me. That feels very this idea of like, you have to be let out of this place.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And until the moment where you cross this threshold, you're like a shade version of your actual self until you can finally get clearance on the topside world.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I thought this episode was kind of Gemma's version of the season one Racing the Clock finale, where all the members of the MDR team have these, like, critical missions about their own, like, individual selves and are trying to solve them as fast as possible. And she gets this, like, absolute race to the elevator in a way that I think also mirrors, you know, this season opens...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
with Mark racing around these white, bright hallways looking for Miss Casey and ends with Gemma racing around these dark, terrifying hallways trying to get to the elevator to get out.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I see them as refiner refiners. They're here just overseeing it all. Just really trying to get these guys to be their best possible selves.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
One takeaway from that, in addition to the doppelganger-y element, which is just goofy and creepy and wonderful, I feel like we learned that maybe the severed floor itself is not as surveilled as we might have thought. Because as they are trying to figure out why Mark's progress on Cold Harbor has stalled, Drummond's explanation is, oh, that nosebleed really put us back.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And not, oh, the fact that Mark and Hallie are refining each other's data really put us back this week. They don't know everything that's going on, but they do know that Mark went to Miss Wong for a nosebleed.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
It seems that way.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Only Russian novellas, I'm sorry.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
They've been so good for Severance in particular.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And what a ring reverse recommends from you, Joe. Just smuggling a whole ass segment into this podcast.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Seems entirely possible. And we have yet to see so many of the functions of the severance chip, including the blank slate, which just kind of looms over all of this. It feels like Irving could be the kind of guy whose innie has been blank slated several times, even maybe with his knowledge. It may have even been the kind of thing where they informed him of what was happening.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And that maybe contributed to him wanting to investigate the company. But he's been around for so long.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Could we even be so lucky?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Only, I guess, big picture, small picture.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Let's start small. On the most granular possible level. Okay. During some of these very flashy, very athletic, as our friend Amanda Dobbins would say, bits of filmmaking in this episode.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
A camera moving down the dark hallways, kind of like almost stop motion-y effect. I'm wondering if this is coming from that kind of hand cranked camera situation. We get a lot of random like one frame insert shots of bits and pieces of Mark and Gemma lore. I did my best to scrub and to see what these shots are.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
We see a split second of Mark's hands from season one as he's sculpting the tree that Gemma crashed into very quickly. One of our earliest reminders in the show of the kind of fragments of memory that might be seeping through for someone like Mark. We see Mark standing outside near some woods at night, which he does in season one when he revisits the place where he thinks Gemma has died.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And also kind of the bend in the road. We see a flash of that as well. You see a man... You can't see his face just reaching out and putting, it looks like his hand on someone else's chest or someone else's shoulder. Not unlike the other Lumen ideographic cards that we've seen. It's not quite one-to-one, but maybe reminiscent.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
You get just kind of like a general icy road. You get the headlights through the woods at night. You get the snowy road from a first-person perspective, as if someone were driving down it. You get a sort of soft table lamp, a red flower, which, look, if that's not Belle and Beast coded, I don't know what is. Yeah. And just some associated shots of Gemma along the way.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
A lot of it seems like things we've already seen and things they've already shot. But I'm curious if any of those will take on newfound significance as we go.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I think I just want to underscore again that this episode turned me into a complete mess. It was really emotional in a way that I wasn't expecting. And honestly, I was kind of wondering if Severance would be capable of. This is a process in a show I find very intellectually stimulating. You and I banding about these theories. I love the sci-fi concepts. I love the execution and the filmmaking.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I wouldn't say this is a show I felt like a really strong emotional pull to. And in one episode... all of a sudden, like, my whole emotional relationship to this show has been turned upside down. And overall, seeing the arc and the painful incremental way that Mark and Gemma came together and came apart, it just really had an effect on me. And I can't salute this episode enough.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
This is the kind of thing to segue into our interview that The Leftovers had in spades, especially by the end, but starting with season two in particular, and that I was just like wanting Severance to hit that other gear. And Joe, we are here.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Well, especially, I mean, we already understand the broadest strokes of why Milchik reacts the way he does to being gifted the paintings of Kier, the racially adjusted paintings. But if you are someone who has gone to such incredible lengths to make yourself corporate friendly... All of this code switching he does, all of this flourishing language that he incorporates.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And then when you try to do that to be slapped on the hand for doing it, it's understandable why he would feel as if LeRug has been pulled out from him in that moment. Because he's a guy who's doing all the right things in a corporate sense and checking all the boxes that they want him to check. And yet he still ends up in this place.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I was extremely jealous to miss this chat, I gotta say. I mean... It's heartbreaking stuff for me.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
The next time a show breaks our brains open with its mystery box elements, you know, we'll circle back.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Always.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I guess which part, because there's a lot to there's a lot to dissect. And I think depending on how you take apart the various elements of this show, the texture of the decisions and the reveals can change pretty dramatically. So how how big picture do you want to go here?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I think it is a combination of the two. Okay.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Without a doubt.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I thought you were going to say my concept of death, which that was going to be a much bigger conversation, but it's also not that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
The Bardo is very interesting in the context of this episode. I think, in a manner of speaking, when we do get it referenced by name, Chakai Bardo, it is Gemma looking at these Lumen ideographic cards.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And that's her interpretation of it. And as she's saying that, she's also describing the exercises she's doing as a sort of like, is this a duck or is this a rabbit perception test?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
So the fact that she sees that card and sees a Bardo, sees a trial, sees a transition into a state of death, sees a manner of acceptance, I think that tells me more about anything else. Like she, based on where she is at that point in the story and everything that she is going through, she is interpreting that card specifically as that sort of transition into death.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Boy, do I. Okay, great.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
So you may remember this card as the one that Dylan G. pocketed at work in season one when the MDR team was visiting OND. And Milchick has to jar him awake off the clock to find out the location of that card. And if you don't remember what it looks like, it's roughly a guy doing like a warrior two yoga pose, standing opposite another man, like hand to his chest effectively.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
And yeah, Gemma has interpreted this as... some kind of ego death as a person fighting within themselves or combating themselves. Very interesting to revisit that episode in retrospect, the one in which Dylan takes that card. Milchick's response, not unlike in this episode, very panicked. High stakes for a guy who took a card out of a department who doesn't have any idea what it is and
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
His quote from that episode is, Dylan, listen, you have no idea how sensitive this information is. If someone paid you to smuggle out that card, dot, dot, dot, and then Dylan interrupts him. I think we're getting a sense of how important these kinds of cards might be.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
Just got it in the mail.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
We kind of talked about some of these things in a way that is disconcerting.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
But guess what? What if you did it and then sold it to people? Wouldn't that be valuable?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 7 With ‘Lost’ Cocreator Damon Lindelof
I'm Rob Mahoney.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I think it's possible. I would say the fact that she was also given the paintings suggests that, I mean, she's clearly being othered in a way that's similar to Belchick for sure. I'm going to say no, just because I, frankly, I don't want too many secret Egan's on the board. And so if I'm already putting one or two up there, I don't want Natalie to be one as well.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I hope so. I really hope so.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Random. Was he an Italian guy? What was the other guy? Okay, thank you.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
That was a hatecraft Italy, I apologize. It's all right. You know, James has been abroad, you know, like he is a busy man. He's a man about town.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Again, I think he's capable of anything.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
This was the, like, I'm throwing my badge and gun on the table and storming out of the office speech.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
So, yeah, it felt like he was quitting, even though obviously he is not. And I think the nature of this...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
interaction overall and milchick kind of asserting some of his authority and asserting some of what actually is his jurisdiction i think sets up pretty effectively the stuff with mark on the phone in the subsequent scenes like that that almost doesn't happen if he's feeling desperate and under the gun and like drum it is all like on his back trying to get mark to come back in to finish cold harbor asap and so like the idea of giving mark the day i think is dependent on this exchange happening
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
That said, Joe, I will say this exchange felt very mixed to me and some of it very, very flat. The monosyllabically situation, I enjoyed. Him rightly pointing out, not my job, not my circus, not my monkeys out in the outside world. Devour of feculence, way too cute.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
One more for the road. If someone who does have access to clips and can put them together in a supercut in a way that we no longer can, can put together every time someone this season has said some variation of She's Alive, I would love to see it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Oh, the slow-mo is so good.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Miss Wong's departure here or sort of the role if we don't see her again this season or at all the role she played this season I'm a little confounded by the character and some of that is like was she just here to add to the weirdness of the dynamic and to kind of sop up mystery as we're going along and trying to figure out who she is and what role she plays obviously there is the element of taking this idea of child labor which is so critical to the Lumen identity and transposing it into an office setting and calling it a fellowship and
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
All good. All good here. No problems whatsoever.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Classic rebranding. I appreciate the PR work.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
At the end of the day, I still have so many questions about Miss Wong. I hope this is not the end of her story. Like if the end of her arc is her as a little girl with her earmuffs waiting for the bus, like I understand what we're doing there, but it feels like kind of a missed opportunity given her presence throughout this season and given like how fascinating that character could be.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And so I am still waiting for something with Miss Wong. And I hope this show continues to pay off her presence in the story. I'm just a little worried that she might be out of here.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Yeah. I want to say Northwestern. I saw a clip of her like a little meet and greet clip at Northwestern. What a delight. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Always at pineapplebobbing at gmail.com. And of course, at prestigetv at spotify.com. If you're, I guess, less fun or you just don't feel like bobbing today.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
What a rec letter to get Britt Lauer.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I think putting us inside that process of a child being indoctrinated, being brought up in the system in the way that Harmony was, for example, different timeline, but similar circumstances, that is helpful to have.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Yeah. Like a little bit? I would certainly hope. I just think overall this season, what I'm coming to, and maybe I'll feel differently on the other side of the finale... A lot of the backstage stuff we've gotten as to the operations at Lumen HQ, the Milchick storylines, I thought initially led with so much promise and so much like potential emotionality and ultimately kind of fizzled out for me.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
The Miss Wong stuff, similarly, like I was so eager to get to know this character and understand her more out of the gate. this is where we end up potentially with that character. Like I, I just feel a little disappointed. For example, if, if Milchick story this season is coming into his own by returning to the similar flowery language that he prefers, then,
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Yes, please do. We're going to need them. We're going to take questions live from the chat, of course, but we got to get some fodder to get started. So please send us in theories, ideas. I think just kind of general questions about the world of the show. It doesn't have to be guessing at the end game. Let's have fun with the goats among us.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I just feel like Drummond as word police is such a goofy place for this plot line to end up. And I think that's what undercuts some of the power in... Tramell Tillman's given an amazing performance. The best. And I think ultimately delivers some... Absolutely phenomenal phone acting with Mark as he's sort of navigating the aftermath of these conversations.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I just think it's a it's a weird exchange and it's a weird place for this character. And who knows where it will end up. But so far, I'm having a little trouble with the with the milkshake stuff overall.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Everybody's talking about Berving. Everybody's talking about Berving.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And I really appreciate you. I have to go to a really deep and dark place in my soul to channel Billy. But you got there. I appreciate it, though. Thank you, Joe.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Oh, that didn't work for you.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
You thought I was talking about a cast member. I assumed.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
They smuggled in dollars price into this show?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I mean, The Pit is pulling the heartstrings. They're really going for it hard.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
It takes a bit. I think for me, it really takes more than just a moment. It needs to be sort of the culmination of a storyline, right? You take me on a journey, and that payoff is really going to hit hard by the end.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
So yeah, I'm not getting there with this, and I think that speaks to maybe some of the way the Berving stuff is handled in general, which is a little chopped up, a little bits and pieces, a little disparate, a little... There's like an emotional distance within so much of Severance, right? These are characters who are trying to reconcile different parts of themselves. And so I feel the distance.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I just think in this case, I also am such a sucker for the looping and the callback and the reference and overall the way that they are trying to close that. Like these two characters who are so desperate for connection trying to close that distance together.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Well, he gives him the I can't first or we can't.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I did not love Bon Voyage, buddy.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I don't think it is a devastating moment. I think it is somewhat of a bittersweet thing. And that, look, that is my zone as far as this kind of content goes. Like, that's exactly what I am looking for. And so I think part of it is... these characters are not going to have that sort of emotionality. These are two people who, in their respective ways, are quite repressed, right?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Like Irving, as he explains, has never experienced this kind of love or any kind of love like it before. And so he is desperate to hold on to it so tightly. And I think the whole idea of what does it feel like to be loved with an action like this is such a poignant idea. And I really love... I really... I really gravitated towards that as much as anything.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And then, you know, Bert in his way is not repressed because he's in an openly gay relationship. He has a partner. He has a different kind of life. But he's like this sort of relationship is one that I just found myself wondering so many times with them, as we have with many of the character interactions throughout the show. Yeah. Is Bert feeling some echo of what his any self felt?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Or is he merely trying to honor the love that he knows existed between him and the inner version of Irving?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
That brings four heads together, apparently. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I think what sealed it for me ultimately was, yes, some of the echoes in that exchange. And we even get like the same sort of ponder some music cues that are from that sort of garden scene in season one here in the train station. Like we are bringing everything full circle for these characters. But once Irving gets on the train.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I'm a little take barren at the moment, but something about these Severance pods in particular, Jo, just brings out the life in us, I think. Something about the cold, desolate wilderness of seeing Keir proper, of seeing a Helena in a nice plunge pool. I just think there's something about this episode that's really going to keep us alive.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And the sort of smile that Turturro is playing there, I think is part of what brings it home for me. And this idea that sometimes you do have to let people go. Sometimes you do have to get on the train. Sometimes you, this is what a relationship is meant to be, to be a thing in your life that is not meant to last.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I love that landing point for these characters because they can't like there is not a plausible way for them to have a happy ending as as harmony laid out for everyone else. It's just not in the cards. And so put him on the train. Bring radar. Good boy.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And I like this send off. I will say. Yeah. Is there a nonzero chance this is the last we see of John Turturro on the show?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
As would I. And I hate that you have to write yourself into those corners, but just, yeah, from a cast perspective, I could see John Turturro being like, yeah, I had fun. We did it. I'm on to the next thing. He's a working actor who's in lots of stuff.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Exteriors only for John Totoro from here on out.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Easily with Irving.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Shiv and Tom had Mondale in like a little playpen despite their massive flat.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Those are not good dog owners. No. You could tell it from every aspect of their personality.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
A proper Mickey 17 throuple in action.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I feel like that's short changing Audi Dylan's anxieties quite a bit. I think there is... Obviously, look, I love that as we are getting this more complicated love triangle, quadrangle geometry happening, we have all of these different aspects of the emotional fallout.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I think Irving's version of that is not even experiencing the love, at least Audi Irving, not experiencing it, but feeling the pain of losing it. That's such a weird kind of sci-fi idea that I think not a lot of genres can tackle in the way that Severance can tackle. Yeah. Helly's pain, as she's confronted by Dylan in this episode, is this idea that the other version... No, Helly's.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
She and Dylan have the debrief where he confronts her with the idea that Mark couldn't even tell the difference between you and Helena. This idea that your romantic partner wouldn't know you well enough to separate you from your other self. And then I think for Dylan, it's that Gretchen can tell a difference, but... but she likes the other guy better.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Like she, she likes the other version of you better.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Yeah. I mean the whole, the whole conversation with her and Audi Dylan, when she was, he, he kind of braces her and preempts like, Oh, are you going to say it didn't mean anything? And Gretchen's responsive. I wasn't going to say that. Like it clearly meant a lot to her.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
The general rule is if it's a one-use implement, you don't need it in your kitchen. And it seems like all this thing does is dice a boiled egg into six identical pieces, which you don't need anything to do.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Here's my... She's going back to him for a reason, right?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I love everything that's happening between them. I just don't see it. I think Audi Dylan might have been through too much. I totally agree with you that from Gretchen's perspective, she is seeing a version of the person that she loves. From Dylan's perspective... He's saying you cheated on me with this other version of me.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And look, maybe that's the strongest case yet for any personhood is that to Dylan, any Dylan is a different person from him. To him, this is adultery. To him, his wife has betrayed him. I think that's where it's hard to reconcile some of the differences between are these different people? Are they different versions of the same people?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Is any Dylan a less jaded, more naive version of Audi Dylan like we've been talking about all season? I think all of that is kind of true.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I mean, you can... That one I think you have to have, for one. Essential to your kitchen. Also juices multiple kinds of citrus, for the record.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Which version of Dylan? Everyone. I think honestly, I think that's such a huge part of what makes this sort of setup so fascinating is that any and Audi Dylan can never have a conversation, right? He could get reintegrated. He could become one more complete Dylan, but he's never going to know.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And so his idea of what the any version of himself is, is always going to be even worse and even more intimidating and even more painful than the reality.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
You want to bust out that retro camcorder? Yeah. Send some tapes back and forth?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I mean, did that go well?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
The ring is quite elegant, I got to say.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Do the Indies know who Taylor Swift is?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I guess what, what transcends like pop culture knowledge and transfers into knowledge of the world? Cause I would argue knowledge of Taylor Swift is less like, are you familiar with this band? And more like, are you familiar with this cultural event?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I think it's allowed.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Cut your apples. Or eat the apple. You don't need a corer.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I'm not 100% sure on this because I feel like when we cut back to the plate, I think it's a great call. And I love if this is true. When we cut back to the plate, it's a little obscured by the angle, but it looks like some of the yolks are also gone. So I'm not 100% sure that she's an outie only. That's it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
If you were in any only, if you're making boiled eggs and only eating straight yolks, I'm concerned.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
It's because of the y'all hybrid, you know, it's just the hard Y sounds really bring it out of me.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I'm really scared of what that looks like for him to eat the raw egg.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I mean, but look, is there something so wrong about a proud, supportive father who just wants to watch his daughter eat raw eggs? Is that so wrong, Joe?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Everything about this was horrible. Jesus Christ, Jamie.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And honestly, look, the whole I really enjoyed.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
No one say that again in the history of the world. No one say it again. Also, if you are sitting across the room and watching your daughter eat boiled eggs, do not softly moan to yourself. Don't do it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
No moaning at the breakfast table.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I think we can all agree upon that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Oh, this dude's a straight blood bag, Joe. Like, he's being pumped full of nutrients. He is not consuming food of any kind. I don't know.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Something is keeping him alive and it's not eggs.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Also, am I just like unwashed swine that I feel like she is being overly delicate with this egg white? Like she's cutting it into the smallest possible piece. You can just eat the one sixth piece of egg white in a bite. That is a reasonable sized bite.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
You can. I will say I once in a different life, Joe, played middle school football. My middle school football coach would come into the locker room and eat an entire hard-boiled egg, not in bite, just pop the whole thing in his mouth and then mash it while talking to people. It was horrendous.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
They're spraying all over the place. It was terrible.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Do you take it? Is Cold Harbor to him a breakthrough that will lead to something? Or are we supposed to interpret that like his revolving is supposed to happen today?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
She makes it sound straight up actually dead.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
The plausible deniability of this show. Really tremendous.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I mean, it's better than every other thing he said in this episode.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I didn't even take it that way necessarily. I interpreted this as he was promised two things. One,
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
mr bailiff was going to be dealt with in this episode i don't know that he knows what happened with irving as if yes i'm going to say it's not related to that per se the other thing was he was basically assured today is the day today is the day that cold harbor will be completed and it's very clear we are stuck at that 96 joe not has not budged all day long no and so i saw it as him coming in it's you know 6 30 p.m he rolls into the office he's like what the fuck we did not come we did not deliver on our deliverables
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I do know that... See, I thought you could put yourself squarely in Jame Egan's mind and just channel and understand everything that that blood bag is going through.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I echo her what the fuck on Jane reaching the severed floor. Seeing him down there is a thrill. I think because especially we are seeing so many of our core four splintering off in these different directions. We don't know if Dylan will ever be back there. We don't know if Irving will ever be back there. Mark is in the process of reintegrating and doing whatever it is that he's going to do.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Having Helly is kind of the one person holding down the fort. You need something for her to bounce off of. And I think James showing up is a pretty interesting variable and a pretty interesting curveball on what otherwise is quite a small cast of a show.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Yeah. I'll also say about her conversation with Dylan, where she is encouraging him to save the ring. See who else you can meet down here in O&D with the goat people. Not the goat people.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I feel like you're being very judgmental. I feel like there's at least a couple of those goat people who might be open to it. You hated the goat people.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I hope we never go back to Mammalian's new triple.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
But that's not to say Dylan couldn't go back there in his free time. And I support whatever decisions that that character wants to make. But it did feel like exactly the kind of thing where she's giving advice to... to herself in a kind of way, not to seek someone else out, but she's telling him specifically, that woman is not your wife.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And she almost could not be talking more directly to herself vis-a-vis Mark and Gemma, right? This idea that you are a different person. I need you to be a different person who is not that woman's husband.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
What are we doing here? Marks. What are we doing?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I already know where you're going. These are both so good.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Although honorable mention to Devin for the, am I me or am I a copy machine? I also very much enjoyed that bit.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
What are they doing for hours and hours and hours?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I think part of what makes that snag too is, and this is a problem I would say with mystery box storytelling overall, where the show doesn't want to show its hand as to, for example, why do we need any Mark? Like what information does he have that Cobell doesn't have that would be instrumental in finding Gemma? Like she knows so much more than Mark does.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
She doesn't know what's been going on for like the past week at Lumen, but that's about it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
She has a lot more information.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
So much more. And so as a result of that, like normally in order to set the stakes of the show, you have to give us some indication of what it is that we actually need out of these interactions. And I don't think we have that. I think we just have characters saying we have to do this. We have to do why we Devin says in this episode, we have no choice but to do what Cobell says.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I would argue of many, many, many other choices that you could make.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I think you're seeing some of the after effects of an episode like that where we talked about the sort of storytelling momentum in taking this huge diversion into Cobell's storyline. And you need that if you're going to reintroduce Cobell in the story in some way. If you're going to bring her back with Mark and Devin and loop her back into the action, you need to know what she's been up to. Right.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
But like they did not.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
pushing my patience slightly I think I think that's entirely fair I think they have stretched this stuff out to a degree where we've gotten a decent amount of mark screen time but not a lot of mark propulsion or progress or even emotionally speaking I'm not saying it has to be reintegration I think episode 7 is the high watermark for that not just for Gemma but also for Mark in terms of getting his elements of the backstory like that added to the character in a really significant way
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
it feels like there's so many balls in the air this season that a lot of the payoffs have nothing to do with what's happening this year, right? Like the, the Bervin stuff is a great example. The reason that the, that Bervin kind of like farewell moment works to the extent that it does for anyone. And as you said, Joe, for you, it was a little bit more mixed. It all hinges on season one.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
It does not pay off. And like everything that happened between Bert and Irving in season two was misdirection, was taking them down a side path, was setting up Bert as a potentially nefarious figure, which he kind of is.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
but ultimately did not really contribute to the plot or the or the emotionality of these characters in any meaningful way and i think you could say the same thing about a lot of what's going on with mark where there's a lot of him tripping out post reintegration him collapsing into the floor him seeming to regain consciousness and in a way where i i just thought there would be a little bit more bleeding over at this point but the very fact that we have to go to the birthing cabin to advance the plot tells us that this is not a reintegrated character this is a guy with a
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
hole in the back of his head that's oozing that for some reason we throw in the back of a pickup truck that's a bad choice for a guy with a hole in his head do not do that either
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
But that also means you have to do a lot of just kind of moving the chains on the other characters to get them now in place for the finale. And so I will say I did feel a lot of that, a lot of kind of positioning the pieces on the board. I also thought that we just had some breathtaking emotional moments in this episode. And so that to me is a fair enough balance for a penultimate endeavor.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Or get a different car. Do whatever you have to do. I feel like putting him in a bumpy... There was no room in the rabbit, I'll tell you that much right now.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
But how are you going to project how ominous it is if you don't say it at that speed?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I think just one thing as we we're kind of closing the loop here from the secret Egan's into harmony, getting them into the birthing retreat, which is we get an email a couple weeks ago from Elise who talked about how every adult woman on the show so far has been in some way connected to the idea of birth or rebirth.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
And I think Elise brought it up in the context of the great pregnancy debates that we've been having all season about. Is Helena going to be pregnant? What is the situation with Gemma and her ongoing fertility?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
All of this stuff has been in the air, but it's also in the air with Harmony, too, who is not only the mother of Severance, as we found out, but if she does end up being Helena's mother or the mother of an Egan child of some kind who met some end, I think that would make sense thematically with a lot of what we've been dealing with.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I did have a listen to this.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
What is this existential dread I feel?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Thank you, Joe. Thank you to Eggs. Thank you to James Egan.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Even the delivery. Just cold. Okay.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
harbor it's like this is not human interaction i know harmony cobell is on her own wavelength on her own planet in a lot of senses but this is just not how any of this part of the story would go i think overall the mark and harmony stuff continues to mystify me as far as why that is being executed in the way it is and we can get into it as we get into that part of the story but i have no answers as to why
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
That's how you know he's a podcaster now.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
almost any of that is happening other than it needs to happen to get the story where it needs to go. And that's not really satisfactory to me.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Is it the dozens of cure babies?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
would you say that in the opening credits it is v because it's a lot of like mark yankin the other version of himself around pulling him through various holes and orifices and it's it's it's not what you want it's not what you want to see come out of a human head but i but i always interpreted a little bit more as mark helping mark not necessarily like helping repositioning maybe saving in some instances maybe whipping about but not necessarily being in direct conflict if you know what i mean
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I mean, despite all of the Mark and Harmony and Devin plans, Hallie's the person who's actually closest to getting to the testing floor to the extent that when she goes down there, she will still be Hallie, which we don't really know.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I'm so glad that there's just an endless variety of shows we can apply secret baby logic to.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Oh, of course. So say we all, Jo.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I think it was a news report. It was like a TV news report where Natalie had to explain how it happened on like CNN effectively.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
Number one, Rickon. Rickon's on my list. By far the funniest secret Egan possibility. I really hope Rickon isn't Egan.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I think no and yes is what we're being positioned for. Her showing up at the birthing site knowing just what to say sounded a lot to me like she's been on the other side of that situation before where she was the one being smuggled in, perhaps. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
So not an actual Egan herself, but perhaps the mother of an Egan.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
I think if Harmony is, in fact, the mother of an Egan, it would almost have to be Helena, just based on the characters on the board. Unless it's like, oh, there was a mystery baby that is...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
since dead or out of the story for some reason like the narrative knots i think would start to tie themselves if it's someone we don't know and so yeah if there's if there's going to be a connection it would be to helena which i don't love to be honest with you me neither uh mark or devon no i don't think so i agree okay uh drummond yes but like extended family i think he's more of a cousin or something
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 9: Who’s the Secret Eagan?
You may have heard.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I mean, first of all, Wade Messer would be huffing ether. So... We're just moving one step over, but a dramatically different characterization. I think the sort of down-on-their-luck Kentuckian addicts and degenerates of Justified and the criminal elements of Justified are so different from the people we see in Salt's Neck who are worn down in this decrepit, dying industry town.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And to have Hampton step into that as somebody who clearly is trying to just soldier on and at the same time huffing ether every chance he can get, maintaining this sort of habitual thing that he's had since he was presumably a kid. And the way that Harmony has that element with him, where, as you said, the unscripted kiss comes after
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
judgment really on her part i'm like how can you how can you do this how can you sell this stuff after everything that we went through right producing it in the middle in the first place the life that we've lived like how can you participate in this thing that that like wrecked our lives and wrecked this town and he's simultaneously somebody who can have lived through all of that and still be huffing the ether and i 100 believe it from lagrosse performance and i also believe that he's the guy who would stand up at the end of the episode
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
But tough for us that, I wish we would get a lot more of him. I don't see how, because he's going to be in Salt's Neck and he just gave away his truck.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I think that, one, we knew that her mother was not a believer in the Cure cult. And I think we're kind of led along through this episode to think that Sissy is sort of her entry point into that world. And where she is working in the ether mill from a young age, she is put into this pipeline with the School for Girls and eventually the Wintertide Fellowship.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And we're seeing kind of all these elements of her backstory tied together. And then, of course, this idea that she, in fact, is the one who invented the severance procedure or at least like designed it, designed the schematics that became what we know as severance.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Uh, Does that dramatically change the way I think about Miss Cobell? I don't know. I think the fact that she grew up huffing ether fumes changes the way I think about her a little bit. And the idea of like, why is she as off kilter as she is? Why is why is her language presented the way it is?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And when you hear Sissy speak, I think you get a pretty good idea of how being a member of a cult can sort of infiltrate your brain and shape you on the most like formative verbal levels. But to be honest, I was having a hard time sort of wrestling with the idea of the reveal of this episode and how much I thought it really changed because it felt like a swerve.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
It felt like the kind of thing where I wanted to go back and revisit as we're going to do today.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And then we got an email from a listener, Carrie, who... Put it in terms that I hadn't quite thought about yet, which is that we had been kind of thinking about severance as a purely capitalistic idea, right? Lumen creates this thing so they can eventually sell it or, you know, take advantage of their workers or create a whole new workforce or whatever it ends up being.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And Kerry proposed the idea that, like, if Harmony was creating it as a means to basically escape... the abuse that she had suffered as a child, right?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Someone who had been in this system, who had been treated very cruelly, who had now had her idea stolen from her, that seeing that idea now used for purely capitalistic reasons, probably, and used to hurt so many other people would be such a, like a re-traumatizing event for Harmony over and over again.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Yeah, it does seem, given the ether-heavy context in this episode, that Lumen's goal is to give you kind of the spoonful of sugar one way or another. And that's going to take many forms. I'm sure it's had many forms in between ether and severance.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
But that, more than anything, after what we saw from Gemma last week and how it's kind of articulated in this episode, feels like what the goal of severance is, is to save, quote-unquote, save you from the pain and the anxiety of all these things while subjecting a different version of yourself to exactly those things.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
There's plenty of freeze-framing to be done in this episode.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Very trauma-heavy slate on the pit, I got to say.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Don't like it. And I will say, you know, last week at the tail end of the episode, we hear from Rigabi when she's kind of talking to Devin about the idea of calling Cobel, that she was raised by Lumen. Raised by Lumen. And I think we had that understanding with the school, with the Myrtle Egan School for Girls, that like clearly she's been brought up in this way of life.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
She seemed like a true believer, as you said, until the leopard ate her face. But this... I think changes how we think about that idea of what it means to be raised by a Lumen, specifically with the way she's sort of grieving her mom, which I don't know how you took it, Joe.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I read as much grieving the mom she didn't really get to have because she's presumably going off to some sort of boarding school. She's being raised within this cult. Her mom is not a believer. I can't imagine she approved exactly of what was happening and kind of the way that Harmony's life was taking shape.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
You're telling me huffing a bunch of chemicals isn't good for you?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And a town that is now, at this point, just sort of aging into death, right? Everyone we see is very gray-bearded, white-haired. Like, this is a town where, to the extent that there were young people here, they have been abused and left, right? Like, they were child workers, and now they've either grown into damaged adults or they've fled as the town has further decayed.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And this is an idea that has been proposed within the world of Severance, certainly within the world of the innies, as a very dignified thing, working in the ether mill, right? This idea that Keir and his wife met working at the ether mill. And we saw the painting of that in season one. Yeah. A formative birthing moment as they got to kind of gaze upon the ether vat together.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I have to say, what shook me most about this episode was the way Patricia Arquette, who, look, her pronunciations can be all over the board, pronounced, wait, Imogen?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Which shook me to my core that I may have been pronouncing Imogen Heap's name wrong all these years, but it turns out not.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
But it is more commonly Imogen. Well, shout out to all the Imogens and Imogens out there.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Which gives her some grace for the fact that I wouldn't say she's particularly great at it yet. She's a little bit of like D'Onofrio in Men in Black, like alien bugs in the skin suit sometimes.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
It is that way. But clearly she's learning how to be a person. And she's learning everything that comes with that. All the pains that come with that. The kind of ego and the feeling of being wronged by Lumen that she's striving for simultaneously. She's dealing with a lot.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I would love nothing more.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I mean, yeah, I don't believe that a dude jerked off on a tree and died. Or sorry, jerked off on the ground and became a tree. I want to get my facts straight.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Get the lore right. I want to get the lore correct. Yeah, that seems very possible to me.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Have you partaken, Jo? Is that a recreational activity of choice for you?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Well, and I guess your Aether self, as people kind of put it in the Orpo episode, as we were talking about Dieter and who he was and why he was a secret and this idea of the shadow self... I mean, what is a severed self but an ethered self, right? It's like this sort of mirrored version of you that has no cares in the world that, as Hampton is, is sort of like cackle crying as you get high.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
The effects are quite immediate and quite severe and clearly lead to some light to medium smooching on a bed that may have been where your mother died.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
They were not. That room was moth-eaten to hell. No one has been in there.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
It doesn't seem pleasant, I gotta say. Whippets, paint thinner, ether. I'm out, I think.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
and wiles yes can we take a quick segue into please uh sissy's shrine corner is this where freeze frame mahoney comes to comes to play you gotta do it you gotta zoom in you gotta see what's going on here we've already seen harmony shrine in her own in her own place and i will say there's a lot of familiarity here a lot of familiar artifacts a lot of crossover you see the same portrait of kier understandably the same sort of like paper mache heads of the four tempers
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Same old timey ad for severance, which has like an ask your supervisor if severance is right for you tag on the bottom that makes me laugh every time I see it. Various newspaper clippings, a note card about probity, which, as you said, is one of the nine core principles. All that stuff we've seen before.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
There's some new stuff, though, including as we see a plaque as Harmony walks down the hall, alluding to the fact that Sissy was sort of like a matron, presumably for these child workers. I'm going to take that as kind of what her role was. And you see some lumen ether patches next to her shrine. And they have, one of them has an eye on it. One of them has a full set of teeth on it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
One of them has what appears to be a man running. I'm going to take those as the eye for vision, the teeth for cheer, the running for nimbleness as sort of like a merit badge sort of system in terms of what Sissy, you know, some commendations for her work as a matron.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I appreciate that. There's also a card with an image of a child with some adults that says, quote, you must be cut to heal, which sounds a little creepy in retrospect. Don't love it. Tough. Don't love anything that I'm seeing there. And I will say the things that Harmony had in her shrine that Sissy doesn't are a lot more childish things.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
It's like the awards that she won from school, the most observant, the best use of mealtime condiments, her best girl trophy. I think there was a plush goat in there. And so Sissy's is a little bit different. Some different artifacts, some different items, and clearly no breathing tube because Harmony had it in the first place. And it doesn't seem like Sissy thinks a lot of her departed sister.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I do because I also Googled it. They were an ether frolic.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Classic ether frolic.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I would say the best of the four tempers. I'm willing to alienate the other three tempers in the process, but it's the only one that I want to be a part of.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
But what if episode nine is just Julia rolling up and you just get the full backstory of what happened here in Salt Snake?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
They own the Zufu Chinese restaurant.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
It's not a coincidence that often those company towns and that sort of payment systems came with extraordinarily dangerous work, right? Like things that people don't want to be doing, but then feel beholden to and feel trapped in because they don't have any actual currency to speak of.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
The Midwest part I thought was interesting with this episode because this feels very different in terms of the location, the setting. I mean, clearly, we're out and about in a way that we are not often very much on Severance. It also felt... I don't know where this was shot.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Okay, I was about to say, coastal Canada is kind of the vibe that it's evoking. And I think... You know, everything we've seen to this point, both in art and pixelated graphics and out in the real world, has been more like Lake Town oriented, it felt like. And this was, it felt like a real venture to the coast, to see some actual coast side.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
That's not the energy you want, let me tell you.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
You love when people do their reading. You know, you assign it every week and many people don't even crack open their books.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Our guy. You really don't. I do because... Not only can woe suck it, Dickens can suck it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
For sure. And also, I think from Sissy's perspective, the deep disappointment in someone that presumably, it seems like she had, at least after Harmony's mother's death, a sort of active hand in raising and presumably out on the warehouse or on the mill floor, like is in charge of Harmony in some ways. And you get the line about how she, you know,
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
she thought she was her beautiful flower, but she was just her weed. That line read was fantastic. I was very much a fan of everything that's going on there with Jane Alexander. But, This idea of not only are you trapped in this company, trapped in this life, this company, not just a company town, but a company lifestyle.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Respectfully, a lot. Our listeners are quite diligent. And this was something we mentioned that clearly stuck in a lot of people's craw was the idea that, oh, she is right-handed and therefore writing left-handed in the dreaded thank you card room would be a particular kind of torture, which agreed. Yeah.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And when you try to break out of it, everyone you've ever cared about has stolen your ideas, has used them for their own personal gain, now sees you as a disappointment, is firing you, when you thought you were untouchable because if nothing else, you had dedicated your life to this cause.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And now what are you left with if you're Harmony Cobell other than your precious, precious schematics that will prove I don't know to who, but even if I did have them, I wouldn't hand them to Sissy when she's standing by a fire. I will tell you that much.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
This is a woman who manipulated her brother, who kidnapped her child and then abandoned the child and committed lactation fraud. You tell me which of those is the worst. I don't know. But three things that Devin might be holding against Miss Cobell at this stage in the story. Again, I understand the desperation that you're alluding to.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
She just watched her brother go thud real loud on the floor and then be slowly brought back to consciousness. She's freaked. But I think there are many other places you could potentially go. And I think here's the thing. At this point, her being desperate and wanting answers with no Rigabi makes more sense than when Rigabi was still there.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And she's saying, what if we called Miss Cobell and try to get Mark into the birthing retreat so we can talk to his innie? I didn't understand any of that.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I do have one thing I want to mention, Joe, which is so much about this episode, so much about this show, so much about Harmony Cobell we have talked about as being out of time and very difficult to pin down in terms of these very 70s and 80s cars that they use, the technology both inside and outside of the severed floor.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
It's so hard to get a feel for where we are and kind of what these people are dealing with. And there's kind of an interesting effect with that on the soundtrack this week, too. We get this track, Where Do We Go From Here, by Charles Bradley, after Harmony sees Hampton in the cafe, asks for a favor, and he immediately goes. Our guy is not hesitating.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
He wants that smooch so bad, even though he doesn't know it yet. It's this track that sounds extremely 70s soul, but was released in 2013. And if that's not severance, I don't know what is. That's really the vibe we're trying to cultivate.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I did. Wait, no, we did. We talked about this. It was like the etherphone. Etherphone. Classic etherphone.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I think there's only one choice, Joe, which is the middle box for roasting. I simply have to know what marshmallows are in there. Are we going to get a proper Keir stamped marshmallow within this box?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Wonderful. I mean, we can presume, but I want to know if the stamp's on there.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Okay. You can stamp the chocolate? You can't stamp that marshmallow?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I'm going to touch the marshmallow. Famous last words by Joanna Robinson in her professional podcasting career. Stamp free.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Okay. I'm a little bummed, but look, I waited some more. Stamp or not, I'm thrilled about it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
But what delicious quote do we have, Jo, in box number one?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
My main takeaway from this clip, Jo, was that Patricia Arquette, as Harmony, has gone fully around the bend since episode one of season one.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Just the zaniness of the delivery overall has been amped up to 11.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Next box. I would love to see what's in the desk furnishing box because it's subtitled Pineapple.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I did learn what, you know, this is maybe a little far afield for this episode, which has nothing to do with Gemma anymore. Strictly Cobell focused this week. We got an email from Mary Kate about how the pineapple is a symbol in the fertility community, which is something that I can't. Did we brush on that as we've gone through the eight different things that pineapples represent?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
But in this case, I think there's a belief that eating pineapple at various points in your pregnancy will help establish it, especially in the IVF process. And the science on that seems a little bit fuzzy, but it's become this sort of like emblematic, hopeful thing, I think, for people trying to get pregnant, which is a fascinating subtext for severance too.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
One thing about the thank you note room that we did not mention that I wish we had was that it's playing Baby It's Cold Outside during that sequence, which does perfection.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Are we going full succulent on this thing?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Did you ever see the movie The Troll in Central Park?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
It's this animated movie about a troll who lives in Central Park and he has a superpower, which is his thumb turns green and he can make plants grow. But then the villain of the movie, I can't remember what the villain is, has a red evil thumb that kills the plants. And I would describe that as most accurate to my planting and nursing experience.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I don't even remember where we are in the cycle of it being pushed away slash recontextualized slash reclaimed. I've seen so many re-evaluations of that song. I don't know where we are.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
The light of discovery shines truer on a virgin meadow than a beaten path feels like something that Jane Egan might have told Harmony in sealing her idea. It's like, I am a wizened old inventor, but you are part of our family. And clearly your mind is more tapped in to the cosmos and its infinite potential. And therefore, this is why I'm going to take your idea from you.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
This is why everything that you've created belongs to me.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Yeah. I think that's the big takeaway as far as looking back at the Ms. Cobell scenes is a lot less ambitious middle manager, meddlesome, obsessive, just overall weird workplace element and more, oh, this is somebody who is tinkering from a place of scientific interest. This is somebody who clearly has not just...
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
a lot invested in the idea of severance, but in furthering it and perfecting it in the way that the scientific method would suggest you should.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I think the next box, I would love to see a tasty new snack. The top middle box.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Oh, we got to get a fruit leather in there. What was the, there was like split seeds or something in the lumen vending machine?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Split seeds, cut beans. Who's to say?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
So we will finally understand what cut beans are.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
We're going to need the full report. Just go to Jo's Instagram account where she will be live streaming her eating cut beans.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I also want to say that Harmony, for her part, is not not villainous. We've learned a lot more about her. She's still done some weird, fucked up things. And ultimately, I think it's still so driven by the idea of furthering her discovery and her invention, even if she's not given credit for it, at the expense of all of these people around her. Anyone who's working on the severed floor.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I liked it fine. Okay. I think... Given how long it had been since we last saw Harmony Cobell, I was a little underwhelmed.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Anyone else who might be severed out in the world. Drilling chips out of dudes' heads. But she has more hard data, to her point, on this subject than literally anyone else in the world. Even Rigabi, I don't think we have evidence to suggest, was able to study Petey's chip post-reintegration.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
You can be sympathetic and villainous at the same time. In fact, I would prefer if you are.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
The only option really.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I would love to hear auditory pleasure because I don't know how you would capture such a thing in a box.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
We got some, I think, some interesting character beats. This is certainly an episode that's going to change the way you think about Harmony Cobell in a couple of different key ways. And I'm not shying away from any of that. I'm not poo-pooing that. I think that stuff is really important.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Hell yeah, Joe. We're just flexing out here.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
So these things are roughly equal. You know, a pineapple air planter. Yeah. A marshmallow kit for some s'mores. And some AirPods. All of roughly equivalent value.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
But it had been 35 days for us in this world since we last saw Harmony Cobell in a Severance episode. And for this to be the sort of big payoff of that, I have mixed feelings about it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I don't want to watch leopards eat anybody's face. No. I also will say, I love the way they shoot the board audio box, the speaker box. Yeah. Just because they treat it almost like a character and, and,
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
People in the room are sort of craning around, staring at this box, waiting for the barest of possible responses.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And one of the things that stuck out to me, Jo, in revisiting some of these clips, including some of the ones we're still going to get to, is this idea that because James Egan blatantly ripped off Harmony's idea, at least it seems at this point, took it, co-opted it, made it his own, the legend is now that he created it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And we do see a photo in her yearbook for the Wintertide Fellowship of him handing her the trophy in which the schematics have been stashed. So clearly they had some kind of actual relationship.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And at this point, there's just so many vibes in which it seems like he's decided he never wants to be in a room with Harmony Cobell ever, ever again and ever have to explain himself or apologize or contextualize or make any kind of concession to this woman who he has just exploited through and through basically for her entire life.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I would love to see stress control subtitled a squishy friend.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Joe, that is not a cow.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
We got to get you out to Salt's Neck. You got to interact with some real people.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Just all the child laborers out there. We've treated you poorly. Our bad.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
One thing that I do like about this particular reveal for Cobell is that we've already had the moment of revisiting a lot of Helena's scenes. You know, now that once we figured out that she was an Egan, you can rewatch season one and you can understand some of the context a little better.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
You can understand the sort of like my company, your company thing that's happening between Harmony and Helena or Heli at that point, even though she doesn't know she's Helena. And now that takes on a totally new flavor when you know that her company was built on your work and your ideas.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And so the kind of wrestling within those scenes for meaning as we get reveal on reveal on reveal, that I have a lot of admiration for.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
What's the best box remaining? We have enhanced decor. I'm not so moved by it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
What do you think of what you've become, Jo, as a formal unboxer?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
As you live your life of luxury over there with all of your swag, you must protect it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
You were so close to being benevolent and then it was like, oh no, I just, I can't use these. It's not out of the goodness of my heart. It's just, I couldn't possibly actually use them.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Just chase you down on the street?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
How dare you, lady with a fake MBA, say this to a woman in STEM?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
What she started with her throuple imaginings with the various marks.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And this scene, too, is preceded, we should say, by Harmony's first instinct is to drive to Salt's neck.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And then she turns around and comes back to Lumen to have this conversation and to make, like, one last pitch, basically, furthering the idea that you put forward earlier on this pod, Joe, that, like, she is a true believer. Like, she wants to be a part of the machine as much as anything. Like, she wants to continue living the Cure lifestyle.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
But at this point, they just are, like, refusing to not only respect her... but even give her the bare minimum of having her old job back.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I don't mind that either.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
What is your read at this point on whether Helena Egan knows that her father did not invent severance?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
She definitely could be. I think one thing that I'm so glad about in retrospect is during the overtime contingency, you know, you get that exchange between Jame, Egan, and at that point, Helly R in Helena's body, like posing as Helena. And so when Jame tells her,
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
this memory of, like, showing her the prototype for the Severance ship when she was a child, Helly has no means to dispute that, even if she knew that, even if Helena knows the truth, Helly wouldn't know the truth, that James didn't actually invent it.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And so it's one of, yet again, one of these scenes where we're left, like, grasping at straws as to who knows what and when and what is true to whom. I do think Helena probably knows enough to know that maybe her family and the business is full of it in certain senses, and maybe has a sense that, like, This isn't all that it appears to be.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Maybe my father, who I have no idea if he has a scientific background or not, could not just invent something like a brain chip. But she's also in a position where she's not exactly incentivized to poke too hard at that idea. Any poking around she does would take herself down a peg in the process.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
But then who is the literal villain of the show?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
jame egan you know uh natalie also i mean natalie body of like a big metal spider or something like we we need something this is the problem with the eventual face turns of all the villains as these shows go on and yes i think all three of those characters have very good and natalie have all understandable reasons why they would ultimately come to side with our core macro data refiners
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
But if they do, you're going to have to introduce new villains, right? You're going to have to introduce the bigger bad to then overshadow the bads that we knew. And maybe the biggest bad is capitalism.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Certainly fits the sort of reintegrating theme of what's happening in the season right now.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
It is not my job. But if I were to do such a thing, Jo, I would probably lean towards parceling out the harmony elements of the story or... I think repositioning this episode within the season. And I think to do that, you'd probably have to change the way you break the whole season, because you can't go like Ortbo into the Harmony story.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I think that kind of cliffhanger, that would be a pretty cruel sort of delay on kind of what's happening with Irving, for example. But to come off of specifically Chakai Bardo into this, you just feel the momentum of the season and how thrilled we were coming out of last week. I'm screeching to a halt. It feels like the show's slamming on the brakes in a way that can be contemplative.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I appreciate what they're trying to do in establishing and broadening this character and making us think twice about Harmony and the things she said and the things she's done and who she is in this world. It just feels like you're introducing an element of sort of narrative inertia at a time where you want to be driving forward.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
She's awesome in this episode.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Well, and the longer she's gone, I think the bigger her landing has to feel. And this felt important to character. It felt important to plot and mystery in some ways, although I think less so. I have to say, who created Severance or did someone else create Severance was not a driving mystery of the show for me or something I was even all that interested in.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
See, I'm of a slightly different generation, and I caught True Romance later in life. But a very formative experience watching Patricia Arquette in that movie, I think, for a lot of people. Just one of those characters who is so indelible, who is so like... I think that movie and that story just does not work without her being as perfectly charismatic and also sort of elusive as she is.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And in some ways, that's what makes her work in severance to this idea that, you know, she's like curled up on her mom's bed breathing out of a musty breathing tube. And like my whole body is cringing. And yet I cannot stop watching her do everything that she's doing. She's she's a wonderful performer.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
And I think the things that help her embody Cobell at this stage in her career, you can find the through lines earlier. It's like, it's all there in terms of these little threads of sort of ethereal or unsettling or like, she's just from a different place in time than the rest of us are.
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Anyway, Jane Alexander is... It could be a big age gap, like older, younger sibling situation. In theory, I do think they leave it open enough for long enough for you to wonder. who are these people to each other?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
Well, does that even rule it out on a show like this? Who's to say?
The Prestige TV Podcast
‘Severance’ Season 2, Episode 8: Cobel’s Chilly Origins
I mean, flip my toboggan, Jo. Come on, let's get into it.