Rachel Webster

Some sugar. He lands on sugar because people use sugar all year round.

Some sugar. He lands on sugar because people use sugar all year round.

But he has to make a choice because there's actually two kinds of sugar. Oh, domino and sugar in the raw?

But he has to make a choice because there's actually two kinds of sugar. Oh, domino and sugar in the raw?

White and brown. Oh, duh. And the sugar was in these, like, big bins with handwritten signs that said just, like, white sugar and brown sugar. Aw, that's so sweet. It's literally sweet. How much would you like? Ugh. Would 20 pounds be enough? So Matthew now has a garden rake in December, a 20-pound bag of brown sugar that he has to take home on horseback, and no dress for Anne. Oh, God, Matthew.

White and brown. Oh, duh. And the sugar was in these, like, big bins with handwritten signs that said just, like, white sugar and brown sugar. Aw, that's so sweet. It's literally sweet. How much would you like? Ugh. Would 20 pounds be enough? So Matthew now has a garden rake in December, a 20-pound bag of brown sugar that he has to take home on horseback, and no dress for Anne. Oh, God, Matthew.

I know. So after looking around to make sure no one's listening, he whispers to the clerk.

I know. So after looking around to make sure no one's listening, he whispers to the clerk.

Sleeves. Needs to buy a dress with puffed sleeves. So she goes to the window of the store and gets him the one and only dress that they have.

Sleeves. Needs to buy a dress with puffed sleeves. So she goes to the window of the store and gets him the one and only dress that they have.

Listen, Anne has never worn anything but homemade clothes. She is so overwhelmed with this gesture, she wears her puffed sleeves straight into the barn to thank Matthew. Oh, my God.

Listen, Anne has never worn anything but homemade clothes. She is so overwhelmed with this gesture, she wears her puffed sleeves straight into the barn to thank Matthew. Oh, my God.

It's more exquisite than any dress I could ever imagine. And Anne's whole thing is that her imagination is what saved her from a life of misery. So this is like a really big deal. Yeah, I kind of... Puff sleeves. She's prone to exaggeration, but she's also completely earnest. Okay, so this is the best part. He places a delicate kiss on Anne's head because he doesn't want to get her a sturdy kiss.

It's more exquisite than any dress I could ever imagine. And Anne's whole thing is that her imagination is what saved her from a life of misery. So this is like a really big deal. Yeah, I kind of... Puff sleeves. She's prone to exaggeration, but she's also completely earnest. Okay, so this is the best part. He places a delicate kiss on Anne's head because he doesn't want to get her a sturdy kiss.

But Anne won't have this. Nothing is more important than Matthew, even her puffed sleeves. So she throws her arms around him. No! Even though he's in the dirty barn figuring out where to store 20 pounds of sugar. Oh, my God!

But Anne won't have this. Nothing is more important than Matthew, even her puffed sleeves. So she throws her arms around him. No! Even though he's in the dirty barn figuring out where to store 20 pounds of sugar. Oh, my God!

So to me, Anna's like the perfect example of how people responded to all these non-homemade items that suddenly started to show up all around them.

So to me, Anna's like the perfect example of how people responded to all these non-homemade items that suddenly started to show up all around them.

But even though the general store where Matthew bought Anne's dress had more stuff than people had generally seen around that point, it still didn't have anything that came close to the counter-appeal of a TJ Maxx until the invention of branding.

But even though the general store where Matthew bought Anne's dress had more stuff than people had generally seen around that point, it still didn't have anything that came close to the counter-appeal of a TJ Maxx until the invention of branding.

Hey. I need some soap, so I'm going to head down to the general store to see if they can cut me off a hunk of soap from the soap block. Oh, hang on a second.

Hey. I need some soap, so I'm going to head down to the general store to see if they can cut me off a hunk of soap from the soap block. Oh, hang on a second.

No?

No?

And once the power shifts to manufacturers, the brand, the packaging, the delight of shopping become what it's all about. You can almost see the seeds of the TJ Maxx start to germinate.

And once the power shifts to manufacturers, the brand, the packaging, the delight of shopping become what it's all about. You can almost see the seeds of the TJ Maxx start to germinate.

I'm just a ditz with a credit card. But these stereotypes make about as much sense as Carrie Bradshaw's ability to buy new Manolos every season on a freelance writer's salary.

I'm just a ditz with a credit card. But these stereotypes make about as much sense as Carrie Bradshaw's ability to buy new Manolos every season on a freelance writer's salary.

In our last episode of Debt Heads, we learned that life in plastic is not fantastic.

In our last episode of Debt Heads, we learned that life in plastic is not fantastic.

It was all she ever wanted, and back in the day, probably all she would have for years and years.

It was all she ever wanted, and back in the day, probably all she would have for years and years.

Listen, as Billy Joel famously said, we didn't start this. We didn't start the fire. No, we didn't light it, but we're trying to fight it. Yeah, it's that one. Thank you. As I was saying, we didn't start this fire sale. The market did. Einstein, James Dean, Brooklyn Scott, and Winning Tea. Oh, God, sorry. Okay, I'm done.

Listen, as Billy Joel famously said, we didn't start this. We didn't start the fire. No, we didn't light it, but we're trying to fight it. Yeah, it's that one. Thank you. As I was saying, we didn't start this fire sale. The market did. Einstein, James Dean, Brooklyn Scott, and Winning Tea. Oh, God, sorry. Okay, I'm done.

Just like Jamie needs to sing every lyric to every song, the market needs us to buy every product from every store.

Just like Jamie needs to sing every lyric to every song, the market needs us to buy every product from every store.

If the market were to function as intended, there needs to be a constant, compulsive, conspicuous consumption operating in the American populace.

If the market were to function as intended, there needs to be a constant, compulsive, conspicuous consumption operating in the American populace.

Tell me more.

Tell me more.

You mean the idea that things should be designed to last long enough to have some value, but not too long, so that people will be forced to buy something new? Exactly. God, when you say it out loud, it sounds like a conspiracy theory.

You mean the idea that things should be designed to last long enough to have some value, but not too long, so that people will be forced to buy something new? Exactly. God, when you say it out loud, it sounds like a conspiracy theory.

Sounds like every iPhone I've ever had.

Sounds like every iPhone I've ever had.

Just like Billy Joel created mass production of addictive lyrics, the Industrial Revolution and the capitalist economy it spawned created mass production of addictive goods. Why did you say Billy Joel again?

Just like Billy Joel created mass production of addictive lyrics, the Industrial Revolution and the capitalist economy it spawned created mass production of addictive goods. Why did you say Billy Joel again?

There was one notable time in American history that we were actively advised to actually stop consuming. You may have heard of it. World War II. You know Rosie the Riveter?

There was one notable time in American history that we were actively advised to actually stop consuming. You may have heard of it. World War II. You know Rosie the Riveter?

That's ironic.

That's ironic.

Women went from worrying about soap floating to boats floating. They were encouraged to don a smart mechanic suit, tie up their hair, and get to work. They didn't need new stuff. They needed to plant victory gardens. They needed to salvage string and scraps of fabric. Everything was sacrificed for the war. Until Rosie was no longer needed.

Women went from worrying about soap floating to boats floating. They were encouraged to don a smart mechanic suit, tie up their hair, and get to work. They didn't need new stuff. They needed to plant victory gardens. They needed to salvage string and scraps of fabric. Everything was sacrificed for the war. Until Rosie was no longer needed.

She needed to release those rivets and roll on down to TJ Maxx. The advertisements stopped featuring women working and started telling them how to do their new job, being a housewife.

She needed to release those rivets and roll on down to TJ Maxx. The advertisements stopped featuring women working and started telling them how to do their new job, being a housewife.

Oy, to be a good little woman, you needed to get out of the way and get into the store.

Oy, to be a good little woman, you needed to get out of the way and get into the store.

Feels pretty lazy to rhyme eyes with eyes. So women went from hearing that they were so skilled at manual labor that they were literally making history working for victory by doing everything themselves and buying nothing to hearing that actually, wait, no, they suck at work.

Feels pretty lazy to rhyme eyes with eyes. So women went from hearing that they were so skilled at manual labor that they were literally making history working for victory by doing everything themselves and buying nothing to hearing that actually, wait, no, they suck at work.

Makes sense. And once the madmen outdid themselves sending mixed messages to women, they started sending a pretty direct one to children. Like us?

Makes sense. And once the madmen outdid themselves sending mixed messages to women, they started sending a pretty direct one to children. Like us?

But once the economy relied on the mass consumption of products, kids became a terrific source to exploit.

But once the economy relied on the mass consumption of products, kids became a terrific source to exploit.

By the time we millennials and everyone else had ears, they were flooded with a cacophony of unforgettable, haunting even, jingles that punctuated our Saturday morning hard tunes, infiltrating our developing gray matter. Who could blame an entire generation for wanting to be Toys R Us kids? I can't.

By the time we millennials and everyone else had ears, they were flooded with a cacophony of unforgettable, haunting even, jingles that punctuated our Saturday morning hard tunes, infiltrating our developing gray matter. Who could blame an entire generation for wanting to be Toys R Us kids? I can't.

Despite being Toys R Us kids with plenty of book fair purchases under our adolescent belts, we entered TJ Maxx with no desire to shop.

Despite being Toys R Us kids with plenty of book fair purchases under our adolescent belts, we entered TJ Maxx with no desire to shop.

She's more self-controlled than I do. It's true. I was not trying things on, but ironically, I'm the person who found the first purchase of the day in Sam's favorite department, jewelry. Does that say Nana?

She's more self-controlled than I do. It's true. I was not trying things on, but ironically, I'm the person who found the first purchase of the day in Sam's favorite department, jewelry. Does that say Nana?

Rachel spotted it. Great idea. Good eyes. I might be turning into a Maxine. This is sweet. I want to get this for her. How long have we... We've been here for 12 minutes and we bought something.

Rachel spotted it. Great idea. Good eyes. I might be turning into a Maxine. This is sweet. I want to get this for her. How long have we... We've been here for 12 minutes and we bought something.

I managed to make it through one entire lap of the store without finding anything for myself. But eventually, I too was mesmerized by the Macs when we hit the home organization aisle, a particularly weak point for me.

I managed to make it through one entire lap of the store without finding anything for myself. But eventually, I too was mesmerized by the Macs when we hit the home organization aisle, a particularly weak point for me.

And it has the labels. I saw a large lacquer bin with dozens of individual drawers built in. What are you putting in there? Various things. What various things? Where were those various things living until now? Or did I need to buy new various things to fill it with? If you think you're going to put something in every single one of those compartments, then I think you should get it.

And it has the labels. I saw a large lacquer bin with dozens of individual drawers built in. What are you putting in there? Various things. What various things? Where were those various things living until now? Or did I need to buy new various things to fill it with? If you think you're going to put something in every single one of those compartments, then I think you should get it.

I immediately tried to justify everything about this locker bin. You guys think it's a lot of money, but see, here's the deal. First of all, you can never find these already built. Usually it would take you like hours to build it. I think I could even have one in my house. There is a psychotic part of my brain where the minute I decide to buy one thing, a switch flips.

I immediately tried to justify everything about this locker bin. You guys think it's a lot of money, but see, here's the deal. First of all, you can never find these already built. Usually it would take you like hours to build it. I think I could even have one in my house. There is a psychotic part of my brain where the minute I decide to buy one thing, a switch flips.

And now I have to buy multiple things. And so should everyone else.

And now I have to buy multiple things. And so should everyone else.

I always think art supplies are a good investment in your life. You could put them in one of these containers if you want. Perfect. God, what if we both buy stuff, Jamie? Oh, my God. So after an hour, we finally rattled our wagons full of treasures to the checkout area. 30 minutes after we were going to check out, we're actually checking out.

I always think art supplies are a good investment in your life. You could put them in one of these containers if you want. Perfect. God, what if we both buy stuff, Jamie? Oh, my God. So after an hour, we finally rattled our wagons full of treasures to the checkout area. 30 minutes after we were going to check out, we're actually checking out.

Oh, my God. It's like a gauntlet. Cashier number 10, please.

Oh, my God. It's like a gauntlet. Cashier number 10, please.

And everyone approached the counter with glee, except me. As I stepped up to the register, I glanced out at the nearby windows where the sunshine reflected on the glass and a bright blue sky framed the great outdoors, a.k.a. the parking lot. And suddenly, I snapped out of this impulsive pursuit to embark on some unnecessary home organization plans.

And everyone approached the counter with glee, except me. As I stepped up to the register, I glanced out at the nearby windows where the sunshine reflected on the glass and a bright blue sky framed the great outdoors, a.k.a. the parking lot. And suddenly, I snapped out of this impulsive pursuit to embark on some unnecessary home organization plans.

What was I going to do with two giant plastic containers? I hate plastic. I'm not getting them. I'm just not going to get them. No, I'm not. Okay, I'm sorry. I just realized that I can't deal with this today. So I apologized profusely to an unimpressed cashier. Thank you so much. I'm so sorry. Oh, my God.

What was I going to do with two giant plastic containers? I hate plastic. I'm not getting them. I'm just not going to get them. No, I'm not. Okay, I'm sorry. I just realized that I can't deal with this today. So I apologized profusely to an unimpressed cashier. Thank you so much. I'm so sorry. Oh, my God.

As I awkwardly loaded the giant locker bins into an overflowing pile of other last-minute discards, where was all this stuff going to go? Oh, thank you. Sorry.

As I awkwardly loaded the giant locker bins into an overflowing pile of other last-minute discards, where was all this stuff going to go? Oh, thank you. Sorry.

As we reconvened outside, that's when everyone noticed I was empty-handed. I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. I was like, this is so heavy. I hate it. I don't want it.

As we reconvened outside, that's when everyone noticed I was empty-handed. I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. I was like, this is so heavy. I hate it. I don't want it.

I couldn't.

I couldn't.

I hate buying stuff. I know. It stresses me out.

I hate buying stuff. I know. It stresses me out.

Anyway. I wish I had that disease.

Anyway. I wish I had that disease.

I think there was just so much of like me trying to make myself like happy.

I think there was just so much of like me trying to make myself like happy.

Shopping isn't our favorite thing, but we've been so accustomed to doing it that we struggle to think about it critically, and we have for decades. As early as 1970, the late radical feminist Ellen Willis wrote an essay in defense of women who shop, which could have easily been written today.

Shopping isn't our favorite thing, but we've been so accustomed to doing it that we struggle to think about it critically, and we have for decades. As early as 1970, the late radical feminist Ellen Willis wrote an essay in defense of women who shop, which could have easily been written today.

So many of us grew up with shopping as the backdrop to our family traditions.

So many of us grew up with shopping as the backdrop to our family traditions.

Five years into what would become known as a forever war that would cost America $2 trillion in taxpayer money, George Bush addressed the nation.

Five years into what would become known as a forever war that would cost America $2 trillion in taxpayer money, George Bush addressed the nation.

For the entirety of our lives, we have been told that our very survival as a nation depends on this ever-growing market, this ever-growing pursuit of objects.

For the entirety of our lives, we have been told that our very survival as a nation depends on this ever-growing market, this ever-growing pursuit of objects.

These cheap goods, the ones we think we can afford, they come at a much higher price than what's on the red tag.

These cheap goods, the ones we think we can afford, they come at a much higher price than what's on the red tag.

But we also managed to get something that we did need while we spent a few hours roaming the aisles of TJ Maxx. Because we need connection.

But we also managed to get something that we did need while we spent a few hours roaming the aisles of TJ Maxx. Because we need connection.

All of this is immaterial. We could be getting the things we need anywhere.

All of this is immaterial. We could be getting the things we need anywhere.

There was literally nothing else to do for miles and miles other than shop.

There was literally nothing else to do for miles and miles other than shop.

Even though most of us can't afford to buy things that are not on sale, that are not sold at a place like TJ Maxx, Every time we refuse to buy things that we don't need, we're also refusing to participate in an economy that is using us for its profit. An economy that doesn't want us to know where the trash goes.

Even though most of us can't afford to buy things that are not on sale, that are not sold at a place like TJ Maxx, Every time we refuse to buy things that we don't need, we're also refusing to participate in an economy that is using us for its profit. An economy that doesn't want us to know where the trash goes.

That doesn't want us to know that we could imagine new climate-controlled places in which to spend time together.

That doesn't want us to know that we could imagine new climate-controlled places in which to spend time together.

Or, as Lady Gaga says...

Or, as Lady Gaga says...

Coming up on this season of Deadheads, we'll make like Oscar the Grouch and enter the trash can.

Coming up on this season of Deadheads, we'll make like Oscar the Grouch and enter the trash can.

Earth-a-loo-ya. Earth-a-loo-ya. Debt Heads is written, produced, and edited by us, Jamie Feldman and Rachel Webster. Our theme song is Pay for That Money by The Defibrillators. Original music is composed by Ali Helmwein. Our research assistant is Jeanette Selig.

Earth-a-loo-ya. Earth-a-loo-ya. Debt Heads is written, produced, and edited by us, Jamie Feldman and Rachel Webster. Our theme song is Pay for That Money by The Defibrillators. Original music is composed by Ali Helmwein. Our research assistant is Jeanette Selig.

Our consumer culture is like an invasive species that has its roots intertwined with our deepest memories and emotional connections.

Our consumer culture is like an invasive species that has its roots intertwined with our deepest memories and emotional connections.

This organism has been growing for our entire lives, and its branches are so wide-reaching, we've come to believe our very survival depends on its shelter, because it's all we've ever known. But I don't want that to be all I've ever known.

This organism has been growing for our entire lives, and its branches are so wide-reaching, we've come to believe our very survival depends on its shelter, because it's all we've ever known. But I don't want that to be all I've ever known.

Because we know firsthand what it's like to lose sleep over debt.

Because we know firsthand what it's like to lose sleep over debt.

To get out of debt, but find ourselves falling back into it.

To get out of debt, but find ourselves falling back into it.

Pass me the peanut butter.

Pass me the peanut butter.

Like what drew us into stores? What kept us coming back? And when we shopped, what else were we doing besides procuring goods?

Like what drew us into stores? What kept us coming back? And when we shopped, what else were we doing besides procuring goods?

But when we suggested the very next day, they figured out a way to make it work with their schedules.

But when we suggested the very next day, they figured out a way to make it work with their schedules.

What? It's just, it's full on a Friday in the middle of the day. Oh, yeah. Every aisle has somebody in it. It's all women. I haven't seen a man here. There's one man over there.

What? It's just, it's full on a Friday in the middle of the day. Oh, yeah. Every aisle has somebody in it. It's all women. I haven't seen a man here. There's one man over there.

Carol approached the terrain with acute vision. You mean like she can spot cute things? No, like acute, like laser focus. Okay, David Attenborough. It appeared that she didn't need anything, and yet she was on the hunt for a good price. You know, I'll buy like a tote bag and go, why the hell do I need another tote bag? I have nothing but tote bags. On the other side of this retail enclosure,

Carol approached the terrain with acute vision. You mean like she can spot cute things? No, like acute, like laser focus. Okay, David Attenborough. It appeared that she didn't need anything, and yet she was on the hunt for a good price. You know, I'll buy like a tote bag and go, why the hell do I need another tote bag? I have nothing but tote bags. On the other side of this retail enclosure,

Sam circled the merchandise with more curiosity than killer instinct. It was clear that she was here for more than pure acquisition. It's just like fun. It's so colorful. She appreciated this habitat for the abundance of artistry. It's just beautiful.

Sam circled the merchandise with more curiosity than killer instinct. It was clear that she was here for more than pure acquisition. It's just like fun. It's so colorful. She appreciated this habitat for the abundance of artistry. It's just beautiful.

Who needs that? But it's just so cute. She preferred to graze for hours rather than swallow in one fell swoop. I could just spend the entire time in this department.

Who needs that? But it's just so cute. She preferred to graze for hours rather than swallow in one fell swoop. I could just spend the entire time in this department.

To get the authentic Carol and Sam TJ Maxx experience, we would need to split up.

To get the authentic Carol and Sam TJ Maxx experience, we would need to split up.

Meanwhile, I was following Sam around as she pointed out nearly every bright and shiny object she saw. I think I'm attracted to a lot of the same stuff over and over again, different colors, different textures.

Meanwhile, I was following Sam around as she pointed out nearly every bright and shiny object she saw. I think I'm attracted to a lot of the same stuff over and over again, different colors, different textures.

They love to check in as they pass each other to review their selections and vet their carts.

They love to check in as they pass each other to review their selections and vet their carts.

Humans have always enjoyed beautiful things. We're artists. We decorate our houses like we decorated our caves. We've always cultivated and exchanged objects that have no use but to be admired. But the common narrative that our love of beauty means we all have an insatiable thirst for more shit is inspired by a very small chapter in the history of the human story.

Humans have always enjoyed beautiful things. We're artists. We decorate our houses like we decorated our caves. We've always cultivated and exchanged objects that have no use but to be admired. But the common narrative that our love of beauty means we all have an insatiable thirst for more shit is inspired by a very small chapter in the history of the human story.

This so-called insatiable thirst didn't even become part of our story until about 100 years ago, when we were completely gobsmacked by an unprecedented level of material opulence.

This so-called insatiable thirst didn't even become part of our story until about 100 years ago, when we were completely gobsmacked by an unprecedented level of material opulence.

Susan Strasser studied three intersecting topics in her tenure as an American history professor, housework, the mass market, and trash. And she explained how these topics, while inextricably linked, are not treated as such.

Susan Strasser studied three intersecting topics in her tenure as an American history professor, housework, the mass market, and trash. And she explained how these topics, while inextricably linked, are not treated as such.

Susan's understanding of all things Ikea made her the perfect advisor for our queries about all of us current, former, and future Maxinistas. And she explained that we were not, as Lady Gaga says... Rather, we became consumers over the course of the last 150 years.

Susan's understanding of all things Ikea made her the perfect advisor for our queries about all of us current, former, and future Maxinistas. And she explained that we were not, as Lady Gaga says... Rather, we became consumers over the course of the last 150 years.

And from 1880 to the 1920s, America transformed from people who make things to people who buy things, and eventually to people who buy things on sale.

And from 1880 to the 1920s, America transformed from people who make things to people who buy things, and eventually to people who buy things on sale.

Nor would she want to because there was no... Cute. Colorful. Fun. Appealing. Packaging.

Nor would she want to because there was no... Cute. Colorful. Fun. Appealing. Packaging.

Oh my god, when I think of a store like this, I picture the General Store from Anne of Green Gables. You know that one scene where... I've never seen Anne of Green Gables. What?

Oh my god, when I think of a store like this, I picture the General Store from Anne of Green Gables. You know that one scene where... I've never seen Anne of Green Gables. What?

Okay, whatever. All right, that's a tragedy. All right, so I guess I'll have to paint a picture for you. Anne of Green Gables is set in the 1880s. Oh, like when Susan said all this stuff was starting to happen. Yeah. So everyone just buys all their stuff from the clerk at the general store. Okay. Okay, so Anne is an orphan. Okay, like little orphan Annie?

Okay, whatever. All right, that's a tragedy. All right, so I guess I'll have to paint a picture for you. Anne of Green Gables is set in the 1880s. Oh, like when Susan said all this stuff was starting to happen. Yeah. So everyone just buys all their stuff from the clerk at the general store. Okay. Okay, so Anne is an orphan. Okay, like little orphan Annie?

Just like little orphan Annie, except she's a bit older. But like little orphan Annie, she finds an adoptive guardian who has never had a child before and doesn't really know how to deal with what to dress her in. Okay. So Matthew, that's Anne's adoptive guardian. Okay. He wants to buy her a dress, but he's never done that before and he's really nervous. So he totally chokes.

Just like little orphan Annie, except she's a bit older. But like little orphan Annie, she finds an adoptive guardian who has never had a child before and doesn't really know how to deal with what to dress her in. Okay. So Matthew, that's Anne's adoptive guardian. Okay. He wants to buy her a dress, but he's never done that before and he's really nervous. So he totally chokes.

And pretends that he's at the store to buy a garden rake.

And pretends that he's at the store to buy a garden rake.

But it's the dead of winter, so the clerk has to go all the way to the attic and see if she can find a rake. Because they only have one kind of rake? And they only keep them in stock during the summer? Exactly. Got it. And after she finds the one rake, Matthew's just standing there, still shaking in his one pair of boots. So he says that he might want to look at some hayseed. I might want to, uh...

But it's the dead of winter, so the clerk has to go all the way to the attic and see if she can find a rake. Because they only have one kind of rake? And they only keep them in stock during the summer? Exactly. Got it. And after she finds the one rake, Matthew's just standing there, still shaking in his one pair of boots. So he says that he might want to look at some hayseed. I might want to, uh...

This project is a sometimes funny, sometimes critical, always empathetic, exploration into our relationship with money, stuff, capitalism, trash, income inequality, psychological wounds, ecological crisis, advertising, corporate greed, the college trap, the impending apocalypse, shoes, addiction, codependency, anxiety, consumerism.

This project is a sometimes funny, sometimes critical, always empathetic, exploration into our relationship with money, stuff, capitalism, trash, income inequality, psychological wounds, ecological crisis, advertising, corporate greed, the college trap, the impending apocalypse, shoes, addiction, codependency, anxiety, consumerism.

And the people we told were like, good idea, even though we're not really sure what you're talking about. And we were like, I know, right? And they were like... Why don't you just make it? And we were like... because it's a lot of work. And they were like Elle Woods and Legally Blonde when they said, what, like it's hard?

And the people we told were like, good idea, even though we're not really sure what you're talking about. And we were like, I know, right? And they were like... Why don't you just make it? And we were like... because it's a lot of work. And they were like Elle Woods and Legally Blonde when they said, what, like it's hard?

And we thought, no, it's not that hard, but it's time and money we don't have. And we want to make this good. And they were like, but every single person on earth has a podcast, so it must be easy. So just do it. Yeah. So we took time off. Got into even more debt while we did that. And then miraculously, we got a grant.

And we thought, no, it's not that hard, but it's time and money we don't have. And we want to make this good. And they were like, but every single person on earth has a podcast, so it must be easy. So just do it. Yeah. So we took time off. Got into even more debt while we did that. And then miraculously, we got a grant.

Ooh. They had recently added an audio section to the competition, and entering our show would give us a purpose and, more importantly, a deadline.

Ooh. They had recently added an audio section to the competition, and entering our show would give us a purpose and, more importantly, a deadline.

Which was really inconvenient timing to have a birthday.

Which was really inconvenient timing to have a birthday.

Yay, we did it. We thought, if we can get this episode in Tribeca, that will help us sell the project. And then we can make the full series, and then we can live happily ever after.

Yay, we did it. We thought, if we can get this episode in Tribeca, that will help us sell the project. And then we can make the full series, and then we can live happily ever after.

Yeah, we basically stopped all progress on the project and waited with bated breath about the fate of our hasty and very barely organized plans.

Yeah, we basically stopped all progress on the project and waited with bated breath about the fate of our hasty and very barely organized plans.

Rachel got the rejection email at another extremely inconvenient time.

Rachel got the rejection email at another extremely inconvenient time.

Because it happened to be the one 45 minute stretch in which I was not available to share in the misery.

Because it happened to be the one 45 minute stretch in which I was not available to share in the misery.

Yeah. Thank you so much to everyone who has listened and liked and followed and subscribed and rated and reviewed and texted us screenshots of our picture on the front page of Apple.

Yeah. Thank you so much to everyone who has listened and liked and followed and subscribed and rated and reviewed and texted us screenshots of our picture on the front page of Apple.

Remember a few minutes ago when we said we got a grant? Well, we did. And later that day, I told my mom, who offered up some perspective and levity as only she can. I have to tell you something. What? It's a secret. What? We didn't get into Tribeca. Yeah. We found out this morning. They passed over you on Passover. What?

Remember a few minutes ago when we said we got a grant? Well, we did. And later that day, I told my mom, who offered up some perspective and levity as only she can. I have to tell you something. What? It's a secret. What? We didn't get into Tribeca. Yeah. We found out this morning. They passed over you on Passover. What?

Together, we licked our wounds, wrote some scathing words about gatekeepers and placed them firmly on our vision board and listened to Mark Duplass tell us it's all going to be all right.

Together, we licked our wounds, wrote some scathing words about gatekeepers and placed them firmly on our vision board and listened to Mark Duplass tell us it's all going to be all right.

The next two episodes of Deadheads will feature a fan favorite character from episode one and a trip to the happiest place on earth, TJ Maxx.

The next two episodes of Deadheads will feature a fan favorite character from episode one and a trip to the happiest place on earth, TJ Maxx.

And to be honest, nobody really heard them in the first place when they came out. So did they even ever really come out?

And to be honest, nobody really heard them in the first place when they came out. So did they even ever really come out?

You can also support us by liking, following, and leaving a rating for our show. I've heard from literally everybody else that's ever made a podcast, if that helps.

You can also support us by liking, following, and leaving a rating for our show. I've heard from literally everybody else that's ever made a podcast, if that helps.

Okay, we love you. Bye!

Okay, we love you. Bye!

Bonus! We'll be back next week with the next official episode of Deadheads.

Bonus! We'll be back next week with the next official episode of Deadheads.

Instead of talking about how to fit into the status quo, we wanted to ask why this was the status quo. We made a pitch deck and a trailer and we reached out to people we knew and we heard a lot of variations of that's cute. Good luck. One person gave us a great piece of advice, which was make your first episode. So we started to publish little sketches of this project.

Instead of talking about how to fit into the status quo, we wanted to ask why this was the status quo. We made a pitch deck and a trailer and we reached out to people we knew and we heard a lot of variations of that's cute. Good luck. One person gave us a great piece of advice, which was make your first episode. So we started to publish little sketches of this project.

And that was for married women. If you were single, divorced, or even widowed, you likely needed to bring a man, like any man, to co-sign for credit products at most banks. And we imagine it sounded something like this.

And that was for married women. If you were single, divorced, or even widowed, you likely needed to bring a man, like any man, to co-sign for credit products at most banks. And we imagine it sounded something like this.

This just seemed so crazy to me. So we consulted our resident legal expert, my stepmother, Mary Pat Truthheart, to weigh in.

This just seemed so crazy to me. So we consulted our resident legal expert, my stepmother, Mary Pat Truthheart, to weigh in.

That's crazy. What else was by Jura? I mean, so many things. I mean, honestly, it was ridiculous. Do you remember having some understanding of why women were denied credit?

That's crazy. What else was by Jura? I mean, so many things. I mean, honestly, it was ridiculous. Do you remember having some understanding of why women were denied credit?

I'm ready. The thing about 1983 is that prior to that year, there was no consumer debt. Did you hear me?

I'm ready. The thing about 1983 is that prior to that year, there was no consumer debt. Did you hear me?

Did you know that Maya Rudolph's grandpa supposedly came up with the idea for the first credit card? No, I didn't know that.

Did you know that Maya Rudolph's grandpa supposedly came up with the idea for the first credit card? No, I didn't know that.

As the name suggests, the diner's club card was designed for men of the same status and class to literally dine together without the hassle of remembering their wallets. Having a diner's club card was like having a tab at a bar, but fancier.

As the name suggests, the diner's club card was designed for men of the same status and class to literally dine together without the hassle of remembering their wallets. Having a diner's club card was like having a tab at a bar, but fancier.

But they still weren't available to anyone but these rich businessmen. And Donna, being a businesswoman, wanted to flash her fancy credit card with her clients at lunch too.

But they still weren't available to anyone but these rich businessmen. And Donna, being a businesswoman, wanted to flash her fancy credit card with her clients at lunch too.

In order to successfully do her job of finding songs like Working Man, Donna needed to have access to the world of working men. The credit card gave her that access.

In order to successfully do her job of finding songs like Working Man, Donna needed to have access to the world of working men. The credit card gave her that access.

Unsurprisingly, one of the Act's supporters was the credit card industry.

Unsurprisingly, one of the Act's supporters was the credit card industry.

So within a decade... Nearly everyone who wanted a card had one. Or five.

So within a decade... Nearly everyone who wanted a card had one. Or five.

Oh, good God. So what I was saying is that prior to 1983, on average, people didn't have any non-mortgage debt. So in essence, no debt. Hold on.

Oh, good God. So what I was saying is that prior to 1983, on average, people didn't have any non-mortgage debt. So in essence, no debt. Hold on.

How did it go from people begging to have the right to borrow on cards to this seemingly predatory state of affairs where everyone has more cards than they can count and an ever-increasing credit limit?

How did it go from people begging to have the right to borrow on cards to this seemingly predatory state of affairs where everyone has more cards than they can count and an ever-increasing credit limit?

And like Flashdance and the Cleveland of Donna's radio DJ years, this story is set in the heartland of America. Ooh, a story? Yes, about interest rates. Oh, that sounds boring. No, it's interest-ing. Okay, so there's this bank in Minnesota that has credit cards with a 12% interest rate. Oh damn, that's low. I know. It was capped by their state law. Fascinating.

And like Flashdance and the Cleveland of Donna's radio DJ years, this story is set in the heartland of America. Ooh, a story? Yes, about interest rates. Oh, that sounds boring. No, it's interest-ing. Okay, so there's this bank in Minnesota that has credit cards with a 12% interest rate. Oh damn, that's low. I know. It was capped by their state law. Fascinating.

So one day, people in Minnesota start getting these letters in the mail from a bank in Nebraska promoting credit cards with an 18% interest rate. And people in Minnesota start signing up for them. But wait, that's a higher interest rate. Exactly. Exactly. I don't blame them. Ugh.

So one day, people in Minnesota start getting these letters in the mail from a bank in Nebraska promoting credit cards with an 18% interest rate. And people in Minnesota start signing up for them. But wait, that's a higher interest rate. Exactly. Exactly. I don't blame them. Ugh.

And Nebraska was like, stop acting like you got a losing ticket to the meat raffle because one, we're allowed to send mail. And two, if there's one thing people like, it's getting credit card offers in the mail from Nebraska. Really? Yeah. And that argument, exactly the way I recounted it to you, went all the way to the Supreme Court. Wow. Of the United States of America. What?

And Nebraska was like, stop acting like you got a losing ticket to the meat raffle because one, we're allowed to send mail. And two, if there's one thing people like, it's getting credit card offers in the mail from Nebraska. Really? Yeah. And that argument, exactly the way I recounted it to you, went all the way to the Supreme Court. Wow. Of the United States of America. What?

And the Supreme Court agreed with Omaha. They said, you're right. People do love getting mail from Omaha, Nebraska. And they especially love to sign up for credit cards in the mail, even if it means they're getting a shittier interest rate. They said literally that? I'm pretty sure.

And the Supreme Court agreed with Omaha. They said, you're right. People do love getting mail from Omaha, Nebraska. And they especially love to sign up for credit cards in the mail, even if it means they're getting a shittier interest rate. They said literally that? I'm pretty sure.

But they also said that banks can charge whatever interest rate they want as long as it's legal in the state in which they're located. Damn. So, South Dakota. Oh, I know South Dakota. It's on all my credit card bills. Exactly. And I'll tell you why.

But they also said that banks can charge whatever interest rate they want as long as it's legal in the state in which they're located. Damn. So, South Dakota. Oh, I know South Dakota. It's on all my credit card bills. Exactly. And I'll tell you why.

South Dakota, being next to Minnesota, gets wind of this idea of sending mail across state lines and thinks, huh, we don't have a lot of business here. Just a lot of bison. Let's tell everyone in America that they can charge any interest rate they want as long as they BYOB. Bring your own bison? No, bring your own bank. Oh.

South Dakota, being next to Minnesota, gets wind of this idea of sending mail across state lines and thinks, huh, we don't have a lot of business here. Just a lot of bison. Let's tell everyone in America that they can charge any interest rate they want as long as they BYOB. Bring your own bison? No, bring your own bank. Oh.

So the next thing you know is enterprising Midwesterners start sending white-collar jobs to Sioux Falls and taking vacations to the Badlands and taking pictures of bison and thinking, damn, South Dakota is a great place for bison and banks. I mean, I do love bison. The next thing you know... What? All the banks are located in South Dakota and all the credit cards have super high interest rates.

So the next thing you know is enterprising Midwesterners start sending white-collar jobs to Sioux Falls and taking vacations to the Badlands and taking pictures of bison and thinking, damn, South Dakota is a great place for bison and banks. I mean, I do love bison. The next thing you know... What? All the banks are located in South Dakota and all the credit cards have super high interest rates.

You're right.

You're right.

Good question. Let's find out.

Good question. Let's find out.

This obscure ruling created the credit card industry as we know it today.

This obscure ruling created the credit card industry as we know it today.

Our lifetimes have been marked by this simple economic reality. Because of a bank in Nebraska and an unfettered capitalist agenda that turned unsuspecting, newly awarded members of the financial mainstream into lambs for the slaughter.

Our lifetimes have been marked by this simple economic reality. Because of a bank in Nebraska and an unfettered capitalist agenda that turned unsuspecting, newly awarded members of the financial mainstream into lambs for the slaughter.

Bye. In our first episode of Deadheads, my co-host, Jamie Feldman, revealed she was in debt. I have a lot of debt. We met her mom, Sam, who loves Nick at Night. Hello. We met her friend Rachel, that's me, who told her that, no, she can't afford to buy a $300 bathing suit. Have you worn them yet? No. Okay, so let's start by returning them.

Bye. In our first episode of Deadheads, my co-host, Jamie Feldman, revealed she was in debt. I have a lot of debt. We met her mom, Sam, who loves Nick at Night. Hello. We met her friend Rachel, that's me, who told her that, no, she can't afford to buy a $300 bathing suit. Have you worn them yet? No. Okay, so let's start by returning them.

Do you know what your interest rate is on your credit card? I think so.

Do you know what your interest rate is on your credit card? I think so.

Nearly half of us Americans do not know what our interest rates are. And nearly half of us also carry a balance on our cards. That means that we are getting charged an interest rate we do not know that's compounding on our balance every single month. So are you the kind of person who pays off their balance every month?

Nearly half of us Americans do not know what our interest rates are. And nearly half of us also carry a balance on our cards. That means that we are getting charged an interest rate we do not know that's compounding on our balance every single month. So are you the kind of person who pays off their balance every month?

When did that happen?

When did that happen?

Do you find that you spend more on your card when you have a higher limit?

Do you find that you spend more on your card when you have a higher limit?

Uncapped interest rates were the first step in a long transformation of the banking industry, from a boring necessity into one of the most profitable industries in the world.

Uncapped interest rates were the first step in a long transformation of the banking industry, from a boring necessity into one of the most profitable industries in the world.

Like us. Like everybody. I'm Jamie. And I'm Rachel.

Like us. Like everybody. I'm Jamie. And I'm Rachel.

And by the time 1983 rolls around, in a flash dance, debt explodes.

And by the time 1983 rolls around, in a flash dance, debt explodes.

We'll take a trip to our nation's capital to meet some cats.

We'll take a trip to our nation's capital to meet some cats.

And we'll try to define what we consider to be priceless.

And we'll try to define what we consider to be priceless.

Because we know firsthand what it's like to lose sleep over debt. To live in denial over debt. To get out of debt, but find ourselves falling back into it. But most importantly, to start questioning why and how. America became a country full of deadheads. When Jamie first started to tackle her financial situation, she was in about $23,000 of debt. Credit card debt, to be specific.

Because we know firsthand what it's like to lose sleep over debt. To live in denial over debt. To get out of debt, but find ourselves falling back into it. But most importantly, to start questioning why and how. America became a country full of deadheads. When Jamie first started to tackle her financial situation, she was in about $23,000 of debt. Credit card debt, to be specific.

And this episode was mixed by Jeff Seeley. Thanks to every woman who shared her debt story with us. Thanks to Flashdance, Donna Summer, Mall Madness, Rush, Showgirls, Cheers, and I Love You Man for inspiring this episode's theme and for explicitly allowing us fair use of their materials, which has been reviewed by a lawyer.

And this episode was mixed by Jeff Seeley. Thanks to every woman who shared her debt story with us. Thanks to Flashdance, Donna Summer, Mall Madness, Rush, Showgirls, Cheers, and I Love You Man for inspiring this episode's theme and for explicitly allowing us fair use of their materials, which has been reviewed by a lawyer.

And speaking of lawyers, thanks to my stepmother, Mary Pat Truthheart, for explaining why women didn't get access to credit in the first place.

And speaking of lawyers, thanks to my stepmother, Mary Pat Truthheart, for explaining why women didn't get access to credit in the first place.

We love you.

We love you.

Bye.

Bye.

And once she got over the shame of the debt itself, she had to start facing it, practically. So one afternoon, we sought out the help of an expert.

And once she got over the shame of the debt itself, she had to start facing it, practically. So one afternoon, we sought out the help of an expert.

Okay, let's make a list.

Okay, let's make a list.

Okay, so it turns out that focusing your budget is just bushing. And we'd already had some painful conversations and realizations about Jamie's spending and figured out a way to reprioritize the things in her budget. But Siri's advice assumes that you're a person making a regular fixed income.

Okay, so it turns out that focusing your budget is just bushing. And we'd already had some painful conversations and realizations about Jamie's spending and figured out a way to reprioritize the things in her budget. But Siri's advice assumes that you're a person making a regular fixed income.

And nobody was really able to assist us with advice for people who have no idea what they'll be making from month to month. So we were already off to a rocky start. Then once we got to step two, things really started to fall apart. Okay. What's number two? Setting up a repayment plan. Okay. So currently the repayment plan is that we got to pay it. We got to pay it.

And nobody was really able to assist us with advice for people who have no idea what they'll be making from month to month. So we were already off to a rocky start. Then once we got to step two, things really started to fall apart. Okay. What's number two? Setting up a repayment plan. Okay. So currently the repayment plan is that we got to pay it. We got to pay it.

How do you repay $23,000 on a freelancer's inconsistent income, especially credit card debt, which is something that Jamie found out is commonly referred to as bad debt. Means we're going to have to look into the credit card. Details. I don't want to do that. Bad debt is scary.

How do you repay $23,000 on a freelancer's inconsistent income, especially credit card debt, which is something that Jamie found out is commonly referred to as bad debt. Means we're going to have to look into the credit card. Details. I don't want to do that. Bad debt is scary.

The reason it's called bad debt is that it won't help you get a home or an education or anything that has the potential to increase in value.

The reason it's called bad debt is that it won't help you get a home or an education or anything that has the potential to increase in value.

Here's the deal. So we need to just like, first of all, identify how many credit cards you have. So how many credit cards do you have? Five. Five? Okay. Sorry. And how much?

Here's the deal. So we need to just like, first of all, identify how many credit cards you have. So how many credit cards do you have? Five. Five? Okay. Sorry. And how much?

What did you order today for lunch?

What did you order today for lunch?

What do you think about it?

What do you think about it?

Jamie became TikTok famous, acquired some trolls.

Jamie became TikTok famous, acquired some trolls.

We had driven out to this palace of consumerism, not to investigate the authenticity of the brioche, but rather to conduct a highly scientific poll of the American populace.

We had driven out to this palace of consumerism, not to investigate the authenticity of the brioche, but rather to conduct a highly scientific poll of the American populace.

Yes. Do you use it a lot?

Yes. Do you use it a lot?

Yes. This investigation was going so well. We were so prepared. We planned the route. We planned the questions. We printed the release forms. But there's one thing we didn't do. Oh, sorry. Is it okay?

Yes. This investigation was going so well. We were so prepared. We planned the route. We planned the questions. We printed the release forms. But there's one thing we didn't do. Oh, sorry. Is it okay?

but more importantly, discovered that she is not alone, even though she and everyone else in debt think so.

but more importantly, discovered that she is not alone, even though she and everyone else in debt think so.

Oh, okay. Our understanding was that we were allowed to record in the mall.

Oh, okay. Our understanding was that we were allowed to record in the mall.

Oh, that's the mall's rules? Okay. We're in trouble.

Oh, that's the mall's rules? Okay. We're in trouble.

Thank you so much. We will stop. We're going to stop.

Thank you so much. We will stop. We're going to stop.

It was here that we were able to defend our hypothesis that paying with credit is what people like to do.

It was here that we were able to defend our hypothesis that paying with credit is what people like to do.

And for those who didn't have cards, they made sure to tell us that they were planning on getting them.

And for those who didn't have cards, they made sure to tell us that they were planning on getting them.

One, we are professional journalists. And two, using credit cards in America is a hallmark of adulthood.

One, we are professional journalists. And two, using credit cards in America is a hallmark of adulthood.

In fact, 75% of Americans get a card by the age of 25.

In fact, 75% of Americans get a card by the age of 25.

And finally, she surmised that getting out of debt might be more complicated than simply learning how to budget. For the next several episodes, these two semi-qualified sleuths Yep, that's us. are going to try to get to the bottom of what makes debt so ubiquitous in our culture and why it's so hard to get out of it. Jamie, do you know what happened in 1983?

And finally, she surmised that getting out of debt might be more complicated than simply learning how to budget. For the next several episodes, these two semi-qualified sleuths Yep, that's us. are going to try to get to the bottom of what makes debt so ubiquitous in our culture and why it's so hard to get out of it. Jamie, do you know what happened in 1983?

Oh man, another great tale of a wannabe dancer who has to work hard for the money.

Oh man, another great tale of a wannabe dancer who has to work hard for the money.

When we were kids watching our parents be grown-ups, we idealized the edgier sides of adulthood. It was never doing the dishes or paying the bills or mowing the lawn. It was always a little bit sexy. Like walking around with a corded phone while applying lipstick. Tapping a keyboard with long nails. Making your high heels echo down a marble corridor.

When we were kids watching our parents be grown-ups, we idealized the edgier sides of adulthood. It was never doing the dishes or paying the bills or mowing the lawn. It was always a little bit sexy. Like walking around with a corded phone while applying lipstick. Tapping a keyboard with long nails. Making your high heels echo down a marble corridor.

And boy, oh boy, was it swiping a credit card.

And boy, oh boy, was it swiping a credit card.

Don't I feel so sleek in your hand? Just swipe me, see what it does.

Don't I feel so sleek in your hand? Just swipe me, see what it does.

Use your Chase card. Are you still slumming it on a wobbly barstool with a $20 glass of Chardonnay you ordered from an off-brand iPad while balancing your carry-on suitcase with your one free leg? Flash that Delta Sky Miles Amex and get into that lounge, girl. Thanks to Rewards Points, everyone can be a VIP. Security. Access. Perks.

Use your Chase card. Are you still slumming it on a wobbly barstool with a $20 glass of Chardonnay you ordered from an off-brand iPad while balancing your carry-on suitcase with your one free leg? Flash that Delta Sky Miles Amex and get into that lounge, girl. Thanks to Rewards Points, everyone can be a VIP. Security. Access. Perks.

It's wielding power so effortlessly, it takes nothing more than the flick of a wrist to get everything you ever wanted. And double points for every dollar spent. More.

It's wielding power so effortlessly, it takes nothing more than the flick of a wrist to get everything you ever wanted. And double points for every dollar spent. More.

Tell me about your first credit card.

Tell me about your first credit card.

What did you do at The Gap?

What did you do at The Gap?

Oh, my God. I didn't even know you could do that.

Oh, my God. I didn't even know you could do that.

But what the Gap Card did offer Jamie was at least a sense of freedom. Like, she could take care of this unfortunate situation on her own. And there was a time, not even that long ago, that this sort of secret financial workaround wouldn't have even been possible for women.

But what the Gap Card did offer Jamie was at least a sense of freedom. Like, she could take care of this unfortunate situation on her own. And there was a time, not even that long ago, that this sort of secret financial workaround wouldn't have even been possible for women.

In our initial research into the origin of the credit card, we discovered that it was rare for women to have their own credit card before 1974. And...

In our initial research into the origin of the credit card, we discovered that it was rare for women to have their own credit card before 1974. And...

Just before the birth of the millennial generation. Like, we knew people who were alive then. I was very close to being alive then.

Just before the birth of the millennial generation. Like, we knew people who were alive then. I was very close to being alive then.

So we did what every semi-qualified sleuth does. We started combing Reddit.

So we did what every semi-qualified sleuth does. We started combing Reddit.

That simple. This is Donna. And no, we did not pay her a thousand bucks to speak with us. But if we could have put it on credit, we might have.

That simple. This is Donna. And no, we did not pay her a thousand bucks to speak with us. But if we could have put it on credit, we might have.

That's not what I was thinking of.

That's not what I was thinking of.

Rush is the kind of band that inspires a very enthusiastic evangelical fandom in a very specific demographic, Working Men, which Donna also understood.

Rush is the kind of band that inspires a very enthusiastic evangelical fandom in a very specific demographic, Working Men, which Donna also understood.

And like the Pittsburgh portrayed in Flashdance, Cleveland was full of steelworkers. And I like to think a lot of wannabe dancers.

And like the Pittsburgh portrayed in Flashdance, Cleveland was full of steelworkers. And I like to think a lot of wannabe dancers.

Wow. I wasn't thinking of that either. But isn't it interesting that both of those cultural treasures, I would call them cultural treasures, featured women working blue-collar jobs when all they really wanted to do was dance?

Wow. I wasn't thinking of that either. But isn't it interesting that both of those cultural treasures, I would call them cultural treasures, featured women working blue-collar jobs when all they really wanted to do was dance?

Just like one of the dozens of oil fires that exploded in the Cleveland waterways around that time, due to all the steel workers working steel, Rush blows up. And they were eternally grateful to Donna.

Just like one of the dozens of oil fires that exploded in the Cleveland waterways around that time, due to all the steel workers working steel, Rush blows up. And they were eternally grateful to Donna.

But Donna wasn't only an early adopter of Rush. She was also an early adopter of the credit card. And it was the credit card that bought her entry into what was a very male-dominated career.

But Donna wasn't only an early adopter of Rush. She was also an early adopter of the credit card. And it was the credit card that bought her entry into what was a very male-dominated career.

Okay, so tell me what the numbers are.

Okay, so tell me what the numbers are.

Have you worn them yet?

Have you worn them yet?

Okay, so let's start by returning those.

Okay, so let's start by returning those.

You cannot go to this wedding.

You cannot go to this wedding.

Did you book the tickets? Yes. No, she's not. You're going to call her. You're going to tell her what's going on. And you're going to say, I can't come to your wedding. And I really hope that I can celebrate with you in another context at some other time. It doesn't require me to fly across the country, buy a dress, get a hotel and a car service and everything and a gift.

Did you book the tickets? Yes. No, she's not. You're going to call her. You're going to tell her what's going on. And you're going to say, I can't come to your wedding. And I really hope that I can celebrate with you in another context at some other time. It doesn't require me to fly across the country, buy a dress, get a hotel and a car service and everything and a gift.

Here to read the best of the worst comments from Jamie's TikTok is our third grade friend, Dottie Mae Mershon.

Here to read the best of the worst comments from Jamie's TikTok is our third grade friend, Dottie Mae Mershon.

Hmm. Where have we heard that before?

Hmm. Where have we heard that before?

It wasn't surprising that Jamie was in debt. That's something I could totally relate to, because I've been there plenty of times. It's just that she and I both have these big fucking mouths. So I was like, how did you keep that secret for so long? It's true. Our instinct to confess is kind of like a compulsion. Jamie's made a career for herself being loud on the internet.

It wasn't surprising that Jamie was in debt. That's something I could totally relate to, because I've been there plenty of times. It's just that she and I both have these big fucking mouths. So I was like, how did you keep that secret for so long? It's true. Our instinct to confess is kind of like a compulsion. Jamie's made a career for herself being loud on the internet.

Yeah, it's really upsetting to hear. And because you didn't tell me any of that stuff, I wouldn't have brought up the fact that I'd also been in debt in the past and I could have helped you.

Yeah, it's really upsetting to hear. And because you didn't tell me any of that stuff, I wouldn't have brought up the fact that I'd also been in debt in the past and I could have helped you.

Just like in any other form of shame, the isolation is really deadly. It can be really dangerous. Why do we insist on suffering, on judging ourselves for these perceived failures? Does feeling ashamed even help us?

Just like in any other form of shame, the isolation is really deadly. It can be really dangerous. Why do we insist on suffering, on judging ourselves for these perceived failures? Does feeling ashamed even help us?

That's Kathy O'Neill, a data scientist who studies the way shame is used as a tool for profit. And she says not only does shame not help, it hurts. It's called a toxic feedback loop.

That's Kathy O'Neill, a data scientist who studies the way shame is used as a tool for profit. And she says not only does shame not help, it hurts. It's called a toxic feedback loop.

You do something you're ashamed of. You feel ashamed about it. Hide from your shame. And as a result, you're driven to do that very same thing again.

You do something you're ashamed of. You feel ashamed about it. Hide from your shame. And as a result, you're driven to do that very same thing again.

She talks about her family. I'll start by saying that I'm an only child and an only grandchild in a very small family. And all the shitty dates she's been on. I'm probably just going to delete my Bumble and all my dating apps and probably just go live somewhere very far away from all men. She's definitely always talked about mental health.

She talks about her family. I'll start by saying that I'm an only child and an only grandchild in a very small family. And all the shitty dates she's been on. I'm probably just going to delete my Bumble and all my dating apps and probably just go live somewhere very far away from all men. She's definitely always talked about mental health.

And when following the rules relies on our singular willpower to be responsible when everything around us tests that willpower at every turn... Following the rules doesn't feel like a reasonable choice.

And when following the rules relies on our singular willpower to be responsible when everything around us tests that willpower at every turn... Following the rules doesn't feel like a reasonable choice.

But that starts with honesty, not willpower. And you did have a model for that in an apartment building in Queens.

But that starts with honesty, not willpower. And you did have a model for that in an apartment building in Queens.

Jamie is so candid in her documentation of her life that I admit to occasionally feeling jealous because she'll have shared something deeply personal with me and we've worked it out together.

Jamie is so candid in her documentation of her life that I admit to occasionally feeling jealous because she'll have shared something deeply personal with me and we've worked it out together.

This is the story about how I tried to heal my grandmother's chronic back pain with medical marijuana and ended up putting her in the hospital.

This is the story about how I tried to heal my grandmother's chronic back pain with medical marijuana and ended up putting her in the hospital.

And then the very next day, my mom calls and says, hey, did you see what Jamie posted on her Instagram story? And it's the very same personal topic we just discussed. Okay, but I always tell you first. It's true. Of course, bravery does have its limits. And even the most audacious among us keeps secrets from our friends.

And then the very next day, my mom calls and says, hey, did you see what Jamie posted on her Instagram story? And it's the very same personal topic we just discussed. Okay, but I always tell you first. It's true. Of course, bravery does have its limits. And even the most audacious among us keeps secrets from our friends.

Within a few months, there were tens of thousands of people following Jamie's journey. She even started to get news coverage.

Within a few months, there were tens of thousands of people following Jamie's journey. She even started to get news coverage.

She kept getting stopped on the street by people who recognized her, mostly young women. Remember that one lady who made a beeline for you? Oh, God, of course. How could I forget? It was my Taylor Swift moment. She dropped her bags and left her friends and just, like, ran up to you and was like, I love you. To be fair, I'm pretty sure she was drunk.

She kept getting stopped on the street by people who recognized her, mostly young women. Remember that one lady who made a beeline for you? Oh, God, of course. How could I forget? It was my Taylor Swift moment. She dropped her bags and left her friends and just, like, ran up to you and was like, I love you. To be fair, I'm pretty sure she was drunk.

Every year, the same news outlets run the exact same segments telling you how to fix your financial problems.

Every year, the same news outlets run the exact same segments telling you how to fix your financial problems.

Debt, and basically everything about money, makes even the most confident-seeming people squirm. Why do you think that was the day that you told me?

Debt, and basically everything about money, makes even the most confident-seeming people squirm. Why do you think that was the day that you told me?

Yeah. Her tools and tips to fortify our funds are all in her new book. Usually somebody who's struck it rich by being smart with money.

Yeah. Her tools and tips to fortify our funds are all in her new book. Usually somebody who's struck it rich by being smart with money.

Of course, they've made even more money selling you a book or eight about how you too can be smart with money. But if this was such easy advice, then it wouldn't be a problem that only gets worse every year.

Of course, they've made even more money selling you a book or eight about how you too can be smart with money. But if this was such easy advice, then it wouldn't be a problem that only gets worse every year.

And 50% rely on credit cards just to get by.

And 50% rely on credit cards just to get by.

The predominant narrative about personal finance in our culture, the one that's reinforced by those experts on daytime television, is that we are failing. That being in debt is an anomaly. People in debt are the exception to the rule.

The predominant narrative about personal finance in our culture, the one that's reinforced by those experts on daytime television, is that we are failing. That being in debt is an anomaly. People in debt are the exception to the rule.

Because the fact is, we are not an anomaly. We're not the exception to the rule. We are the rule.

Because the fact is, we are not an anomaly. We're not the exception to the rule. We are the rule.

This project is made possible in part from a grant by the Elevate Creatives Fund. Debt Heads is written, produced, and edited by us, Jamie Feldman and Rachel Webster. Our theme song is Pay for That Money by The Defibrillators. Original music is composed by Ali Helnwein, Serena Chow fact-checked this episode, and it was mixed by Jeff Steele. Thanks to every woman who shared her debt story with us.

This project is made possible in part from a grant by the Elevate Creatives Fund. Debt Heads is written, produced, and edited by us, Jamie Feldman and Rachel Webster. Our theme song is Pay for That Money by The Defibrillators. Original music is composed by Ali Helnwein, Serena Chow fact-checked this episode, and it was mixed by Jeff Steele. Thanks to every woman who shared her debt story with us.

You can learn more about how shame is used for profit by picking up Kathy O'Neill's book, The Shame Machine. Special thanks to Dottie May Mershon and her momager, Jessie Arrington, for making internet trolls sound adorable.

You can learn more about how shame is used for profit by picking up Kathy O'Neill's book, The Shame Machine. Special thanks to Dottie May Mershon and her momager, Jessie Arrington, for making internet trolls sound adorable.

And thanks to our family, especially Samantha Feldman, for her endless support, and Moss Levinson for his creative guidance, moral support, and for keeping the motherfucking lights on.

And thanks to our family, especially Samantha Feldman, for her endless support, and Moss Levinson for his creative guidance, moral support, and for keeping the motherfucking lights on.

Yeah. The truth is nobody, nobody really knows what's going on with other people's financial lives. That's because we don't talk about it. We think that if we keep our fears and embarrassments secret, we'll be safer.

Yeah. The truth is nobody, nobody really knows what's going on with other people's financial lives. That's because we don't talk about it. We think that if we keep our fears and embarrassments secret, we'll be safer.

What's the damage?

What's the damage?

So when Jamie told me, and then she told the hundreds of millions of people on TikTok, something shifted. After 10 years of cultivating a secret in the dark, suddenly she turned on the light. I'm starting with about...

So when Jamie told me, and then she told the hundreds of millions of people on TikTok, something shifted. After 10 years of cultivating a secret in the dark, suddenly she turned on the light. I'm starting with about...

Because we know firsthand what it's like to lose sleep over debt.

Because we know firsthand what it's like to lose sleep over debt.

To get out of debt, but find ourselves falling back into it.

To get out of debt, but find ourselves falling back into it.

America became a country full of debt heads.

America became a country full of debt heads.

And his take on financial advice is steeped in the theory that every individual is solely responsible for their financial well-being.

And his take on financial advice is steeped in the theory that every individual is solely responsible for their financial well-being.

And while I find Dave Ramsey's tone particularly off-putting, his take on advice is pretty popular. He sells a lot of books and has a lot of listeners on his podcast.

And while I find Dave Ramsey's tone particularly off-putting, his take on advice is pretty popular. He sells a lot of books and has a lot of listeners on his podcast.

If you have poor money management, you really can't blame anybody except yourself. And perhaps this advice is so satisfying because it is so simple. It's got a clear bad guy, you.

If you have poor money management, you really can't blame anybody except yourself. And perhaps this advice is so satisfying because it is so simple. It's got a clear bad guy, you.

It's a simple freaking formula, damn it. Yeah, dummy.

It's a simple freaking formula, damn it. Yeah, dummy.

Don't spend more money than you make. It's just math. Actually, you know what? This podcast is over. That's a wrap.

Don't spend more money than you make. It's just math. Actually, you know what? This podcast is over. That's a wrap.

Why don't we go grocery shopping? Okay, perfect. Just kidding. I think there's more to the story.

Why don't we go grocery shopping? Okay, perfect. Just kidding. I think there's more to the story.

I thought so too, but I was too embarrassed to ask. You and everyone else. Because we all seem to think that everyone else just knows personal finance by osmosis from just, like, living in the world. But we don't know. And we don't know what we don't know.

I thought so too, but I was too embarrassed to ask. You and everyone else. Because we all seem to think that everyone else just knows personal finance by osmosis from just, like, living in the world. But we don't know. And we don't know what we don't know.

And just like a part-time Orange Julius employee who protects her virginity as carefully as her summer wages and then gets stuck in the middle of a tea party of friends sharing salacious stories of their summer camp sexcapades, we're too embarrassed to admit what we don't know. Now it's just about finances, not fellatio.

And just like a part-time Orange Julius employee who protects her virginity as carefully as her summer wages and then gets stuck in the middle of a tea party of friends sharing salacious stories of their summer camp sexcapades, we're too embarrassed to admit what we don't know. Now it's just about finances, not fellatio.

But women need to be talking about finances more than any of the other sometimes hard things in life because women have a particularly fraught relationship with money.

But women need to be talking about finances more than any of the other sometimes hard things in life because women have a particularly fraught relationship with money.

So over the last year, we interviewed women from across the country to better understand their experiences with debt and money.

So over the last year, we interviewed women from across the country to better understand their experiences with debt and money.

And after we began speaking with these women, we started to notice many similarities in their experiences. One of the most astounding patterns is that they all thought that they were the only ones in debt.

And after we began speaking with these women, we started to notice many similarities in their experiences. One of the most astounding patterns is that they all thought that they were the only ones in debt.

And without fail, they all had the same story about money, which is that they didn't know anything about it.

And without fail, they all had the same story about money, which is that they didn't know anything about it.

Where are we heading? Do you want to go to the library? I would love to go to the library. I have a few books to pick up. Okay.

Where are we heading? Do you want to go to the library? I would love to go to the library. I have a few books to pick up. Okay.

For American millennials in the public school system, personal finance classes were few and far between. Of course, even if they had been more ubiquitous, it probably would have sounded something like this scene from Ferris Bueller.

For American millennials in the public school system, personal finance classes were few and far between. Of course, even if they had been more ubiquitous, it probably would have sounded something like this scene from Ferris Bueller.

In the last few years, personal finance courses have become slightly more common in American public high schools.

In the last few years, personal finance courses have become slightly more common in American public high schools.

And whether or not we're taught personal finance skills at school, or like me by Regis Philbin on who wants to be a millionaire, that doesn't change the fact that in general, we don't like to talk about money in our culture.

And whether or not we're taught personal finance skills at school, or like me by Regis Philbin on who wants to be a millionaire, that doesn't change the fact that in general, we don't like to talk about money in our culture.

Entitled simply Etiquette, this bestseller had one very simple rule when it came to talk about money.

Entitled simply Etiquette, this bestseller had one very simple rule when it came to talk about money.

Of course.

Of course.

A hundred years later, etiquette books are obsolete. Americans comport themselves with manners that would have Emily rolling in her tuxedo park grave.

A hundred years later, etiquette books are obsolete. Americans comport themselves with manners that would have Emily rolling in her tuxedo park grave.

Usually our destination's a park or a library.

Usually our destination's a park or a library.

Unless, of course, we're on national television fighting to the death to win some. And we have a lot of shame about money. Nearly half of Americans admit to lying or misrepresenting information about their finances to their intimate partners.

Unless, of course, we're on national television fighting to the death to win some. And we have a lot of shame about money. Nearly half of Americans admit to lying or misrepresenting information about their finances to their intimate partners.

We're not learning about money. We're certainly not talking about money. And unless we spend our after-school hours on the floor of the self-help aisle at Borders, we end up learning everything about money from the people around us. So, to get a better understanding of Jamie's financial education, we turned to the one person we thought would know best. Her mom.

We're not learning about money. We're certainly not talking about money. And unless we spend our after-school hours on the floor of the self-help aisle at Borders, we end up learning everything about money from the people around us. So, to get a better understanding of Jamie's financial education, we turned to the one person we thought would know best. Her mom.

I love a grocery store. We love a grocery store.

I love a grocery store. We love a grocery store.

Like, a lot of plants.

Like, a lot of plants.

How many plants are in this plant corner?

How many plants are in this plant corner?

I don't think you got that one.

I don't think you got that one.

Oh, God, is that a rat? Generally, I like to do all the boring stuff together. It's way more fun.

Oh, God, is that a rat? Generally, I like to do all the boring stuff together. It's way more fun.

Because we talk the whole time while we're together. Yeah, I mean, we talk about literally everything, but there was that one thing that I guess I never told you.

Because we talk the whole time while we're together. Yeah, I mean, we talk about literally everything, but there was that one thing that I guess I never told you.

It was a big one. I think it was right up here. I remember because it was, like, right by this gate. We were almost home, and we'd been talking for, like, two hours. And then suddenly you're like, um, uh...

It was a big one. I think it was right up here. I remember because it was, like, right by this gate. We were almost home, and we'd been talking for, like, two hours. And then suddenly you're like, um, uh...

Our relationship with money is personal. It's as unique as the families we come from. But the cruel reality is, if you come from a family that experienced poverty, you're far more likely to struggle financially as an adult.

Our relationship with money is personal. It's as unique as the families we come from. But the cruel reality is, if you come from a family that experienced poverty, you're far more likely to struggle financially as an adult.

The FICO credit score for consumers wasn't even born until 1989.

The FICO credit score for consumers wasn't even born until 1989.

Yes, it's just a little baby, but not as beautiful as you and Tay-Tay. How come, like me, it's so young? Well, I'm guessing because of credit cards. When everyone is suddenly borrowing money all the time. Oh, so before people just didn't really borrow stuff? Well, if they did, they borrowed money through connections and reputation.

Yes, it's just a little baby, but not as beautiful as you and Tay-Tay. How come, like me, it's so young? Well, I'm guessing because of credit cards. When everyone is suddenly borrowing money all the time. Oh, so before people just didn't really borrow stuff? Well, if they did, they borrowed money through connections and reputation.

Like, I was totally sucked into their marketing campaign. Wow, it really worked on you. That was so lame.

Like, I was totally sucked into their marketing campaign. Wow, it really worked on you. That was so lame.

That would be a generous mission, but I don't think we can give capitalism that much credit. Do you know what FICO stands for?

That would be a generous mission, but I don't think we can give capitalism that much credit. Do you know what FICO stands for?

The S doesn't stand for financial.

The S doesn't stand for financial.

Fun is... Think of a celebrity couple portmanteau.

Fun is... Think of a celebrity couple portmanteau.

Bill Fair and Earl Isaac. Oh. They're FICO. Okay, so just like two random dudes? Mm-hmm. Two unassuming data analysts set up a system that became the number one way that lenders can evaluate the creditworthiness of consumers. Okay, so this FICO system helps us get credit? Sure. But more importantly, it helps credit card companies collect information about us and our spending behaviors.

Bill Fair and Earl Isaac. Oh. They're FICO. Okay, so just like two random dudes? Mm-hmm. Two unassuming data analysts set up a system that became the number one way that lenders can evaluate the creditworthiness of consumers. Okay, so this FICO system helps us get credit? Sure. But more importantly, it helps credit card companies collect information about us and our spending behaviors.

So it's like a spy? Yeah. Yeah. Remember when spies were sexy? Now they're just data analysts. But here's where it gets tricky to follow. So FICO is a score. And the credit bureaus, you might have heard of them. Oh yeah, you mean like Experian, TransUnion, Equifax? These bureaus use that score to help determine what to lend you. Okay. And they also work with FICO to create the score.

So it's like a spy? Yeah. Yeah. Remember when spies were sexy? Now they're just data analysts. But here's where it gets tricky to follow. So FICO is a score. And the credit bureaus, you might have heard of them. Oh yeah, you mean like Experian, TransUnion, Equifax? These bureaus use that score to help determine what to lend you. Okay. And they also work with FICO to create the score.

A conflict of interest? Yeah. Good question. It's hard to know who is what and what is who. That is confusing. We learned a little bit more about these self-appointed behemoths of judgment from our favorite Welsh-American journalist and iconic podcaster, John Ronson.

A conflict of interest? Yeah. Good question. It's hard to know who is what and what is who. That is confusing. We learned a little bit more about these self-appointed behemoths of judgment from our favorite Welsh-American journalist and iconic podcaster, John Ronson.

And in that very same year, at the end of the 20th century, just across Central Park from where I stood, holding a shiny new sliver of plastic, some copywriters on or around Madison Avenue were launching a brilliant new marketing strategy for that very same plastic product.

And in that very same year, at the end of the 20th century, just across Central Park from where I stood, holding a shiny new sliver of plastic, some copywriters on or around Madison Avenue were launching a brilliant new marketing strategy for that very same plastic product.

In 2005, John wrote a story for The Guardian about a man named Richard Cullen who died by suicide after racking up over $130,000 in credit card debt. Debt that started when he took out a $6,000 loan to cover a medical procedure and quickly spun out of control from countless extensions.

In 2005, John wrote a story for The Guardian about a man named Richard Cullen who died by suicide after racking up over $130,000 in credit card debt. Debt that started when he took out a $6,000 loan to cover a medical procedure and quickly spun out of control from countless extensions.

This guy that John is talking about is Richard Weber. And he built a program that can identify what people might want to buy based on where they live.

This guy that John is talking about is Richard Weber. And he built a program that can identify what people might want to buy based on where they live.

That's right, Experian, the same company that determines our credit worthiness.

That's right, Experian, the same company that determines our credit worthiness.

When Richard Weber wrote the software for Experian, he created reductive categories for people based on their postcodes and described each group with blunt, aphoristic titles.

When Richard Weber wrote the software for Experian, he created reductive categories for people based on their postcodes and described each group with blunt, aphoristic titles.

Richard, the program's author, who apparently wrote all the texts himself, described people in his own group as cultural leaders.

Richard, the program's author, who apparently wrote all the texts himself, described people in his own group as cultural leaders.

And for Richard Colon, the man who succumbed to the unrelenting pressure of compounding credit card debt, he was part of the Happy Families, Families Making Good group. When John did his investigation into the death and debt of Richard Colon, he found that the most lucrative demographic for credit card marketers was the Happy Families category.

And for Richard Colon, the man who succumbed to the unrelenting pressure of compounding credit card debt, he was part of the Happy Families, Families Making Good group. When John did his investigation into the death and debt of Richard Colon, he found that the most lucrative demographic for credit card marketers was the Happy Families category.

In 2024, MasterCard reported a profit margin of nearly 50%. Visa's was even higher. In comparison, on average, U.S. businesses consider 7% profit to be normal and 20% to be high.

In 2024, MasterCard reported a profit margin of nearly 50%. Visa's was even higher. In comparison, on average, U.S. businesses consider 7% profit to be normal and 20% to be high.

With a 24% APR card, which is the average in America, nearly half of those cardholders could default. And it would still be profitable.

With a 24% APR card, which is the average in America, nearly half of those cardholders could default. And it would still be profitable.

They've turned it into a killing.

They've turned it into a killing.

So they came up with a new idea to peddle, which is, life is short, we'd better live it to the fullest. Budgets be damned.

So they came up with a new idea to peddle, which is, life is short, we'd better live it to the fullest. Budgets be damned.

When you have a credit card, you don't really have to ask. And when Alina finally left Capital One and set out to interview dozens of people across the country, she found that this is exactly how people were using the credit cards.

When you have a credit card, you don't really have to ask. And when Alina finally left Capital One and set out to interview dozens of people across the country, she found that this is exactly how people were using the credit cards.

As emotional creatures with a strong desire to connect, to show love, to create meaning, we will always do these very human things, if we can. An easy access to credit makes it nearly impossible to draw a hard line between what we want and what we need.

As emotional creatures with a strong desire to connect, to show love, to create meaning, we will always do these very human things, if we can. An easy access to credit makes it nearly impossible to draw a hard line between what we want and what we need.

In her extensive interviews, Elena found that most of us use credit cards when we're feeling optimistic, when we're at our peak earning years. And instead of saving, we're handing large percentages of our disposable income over to the banks in the form of fees and interest and everything else we don't pay attention to.

In her extensive interviews, Elena found that most of us use credit cards when we're feeling optimistic, when we're at our peak earning years. And instead of saving, we're handing large percentages of our disposable income over to the banks in the form of fees and interest and everything else we don't pay attention to.

You were planning a honeymoon?

You were planning a honeymoon?

Were you planning some other big trip?

Were you planning some other big trip?

Good question. A lot of the cost is covered by high POS fees. Piece of shit fees? Well, Point of sale fees. Have you ever heard of them?

Good question. A lot of the cost is covered by high POS fees. Piece of shit fees? Well, Point of sale fees. Have you ever heard of them?

Just as I and many other elder millennials were entering the financial mainstream, the Priceless campaign was infiltrating the zeitgeist.

Just as I and many other elder millennials were entering the financial mainstream, the Priceless campaign was infiltrating the zeitgeist.

It costs stores over 3% for you to swipe, tap, or contactlessly use your card. And most of them pass that cost down to all of us.

It costs stores over 3% for you to swipe, tap, or contactlessly use your card. And most of them pass that cost down to all of us.

Yes. And this amounts to the poorest among us paying a premium for bodega croissants so that the richest among us can fly to Paris for free.

Yes. And this amounts to the poorest among us paying a premium for bodega croissants so that the richest among us can fly to Paris for free.

Credit card debt is usually held for years, meaning it's not a bridge, but rather a long-term crutch that makes the middle class poorer each year.

Credit card debt is usually held for years, meaning it's not a bridge, but rather a long-term crutch that makes the middle class poorer each year.

In our last episode of Deadheads, we met Donna Helper, the radio DJ who discovered the band Rush. I would take a client out to lunch... And the server would give the check to my client. We learned about something called the Marquette decision and how that affects our interest rates.

In our last episode of Deadheads, we met Donna Helper, the radio DJ who discovered the band Rush. I would take a client out to lunch... And the server would give the check to my client. We learned about something called the Marquette decision and how that affects our interest rates.

On our way back from D.C., we were aghast at the price of Amtrak's wine. Yes. But also the many, many things that Elena had told us. And we couldn't believe we were still blaming ourselves for our bad credit card behavior. As if we alone were manifesting this debt.

On our way back from D.C., we were aghast at the price of Amtrak's wine. Yes. But also the many, many things that Elena had told us. And we couldn't believe we were still blaming ourselves for our bad credit card behavior. As if we alone were manifesting this debt.

This must have been how John Ronson felt 20 years ago when he first set out to expose these bad actors.

This must have been how John Ronson felt 20 years ago when he first set out to expose these bad actors.

Even to this day?

Even to this day?

MasterCard was invoking a deep-seated sense of FOMO by connecting priceless human moments to things, well, with prices. And that philosophy of spend now, pay later, hashtag no regrets, would come to represent exactly how credit cards would undo the middle class in 21st century America.

MasterCard was invoking a deep-seated sense of FOMO by connecting priceless human moments to things, well, with prices. And that philosophy of spend now, pay later, hashtag no regrets, would come to represent exactly how credit cards would undo the middle class in 21st century America.

In 2010, Senator Elizabeth Warren, alongside a handful of other politicians, attempted to fight back against this true malevolent power by passing the landmark CARD Act, which aimed to help protect us, the consumers, from predatory lending practices.

In 2010, Senator Elizabeth Warren, alongside a handful of other politicians, attempted to fight back against this true malevolent power by passing the landmark CARD Act, which aimed to help protect us, the consumers, from predatory lending practices.

What an orator. The CARD Act might have rattled people like Elon and his ilk, but even at its most robust, when the CFPB had political clout, Elena didn't think it amounted to much.

What an orator. The CARD Act might have rattled people like Elon and his ilk, but even at its most robust, when the CFPB had political clout, Elena didn't think it amounted to much.

America has come a long way from the era of Nick and Nora parties, where there was nary a dame without a Virginia Slim hanging out of her delicately painted pout. And yet, it wasn't until I went to Canada, and in a drunken fugue state, picked up a fresh pack of cigarettes for a night on the town, and upon opening them, thought, oh no, I shouldn't do this.

America has come a long way from the era of Nick and Nora parties, where there was nary a dame without a Virginia Slim hanging out of her delicately painted pout. And yet, it wasn't until I went to Canada, and in a drunken fugue state, picked up a fresh pack of cigarettes for a night on the town, and upon opening them, thought, oh no, I shouldn't do this.

Because in Canada, everything about a pack of cigarettes is branded with a stomach-turning warning, including the cigarette butt itself. Each cigarette butt is literally printed with messages that you are forced to look at every time you take a drag.

Because in Canada, everything about a pack of cigarettes is branded with a stomach-turning warning, including the cigarette butt itself. Each cigarette butt is literally printed with messages that you are forced to look at every time you take a drag.

And my personal favorite, poison in every puff.

And my personal favorite, poison in every puff.

Hell, how do we get them on American Express?

Hell, how do we get them on American Express?

Everyone in debt? Which made us wonder, had Donna ever been in debt?

Everyone in debt? Which made us wonder, had Donna ever been in debt?

When we're in credit card debt, we tend to get scolded for buying unnecessary stuff, for misunderstanding the value of things. But that's not really the problem for most of us.

When we're in credit card debt, we tend to get scolded for buying unnecessary stuff, for misunderstanding the value of things. But that's not really the problem for most of us.

At the end of the day, all any of us really want to do is to be able to take each other out for lunch, back and forth forever, right?

At the end of the day, all any of us really want to do is to be able to take each other out for lunch, back and forth forever, right?

This episode of Deadheads was brought to you by the letters A, M, and C. American movie classics? No, Amtrak hot dogs, Margaritas to go, and Canadian cigarettes.

This episode of Deadheads was brought to you by the letters A, M, and C. American movie classics? No, Amtrak hot dogs, Margaritas to go, and Canadian cigarettes.

Because we know firsthand what it's like to lose sleep over debt.

Because we know firsthand what it's like to lose sleep over debt.

You can become instant fans of John Ronson by checking out any one of his brilliant podcasts, books, or even 20-year-old newspaper articles.

You can become instant fans of John Ronson by checking out any one of his brilliant podcasts, books, or even 20-year-old newspaper articles.

To get out of debt, but find ourselves falling back into it.

To get out of debt, but find ourselves falling back into it.

Run the numbers on that. So that's... So as a reminder, Jamie was working with five credit cards when she started her debt journey. Yeah, you won't let me forget it. And all of them carried a balance. But once we got them laid out, figuring out how to pay down that debt was going to require some math. A tall order for a couple of art school kids.

Run the numbers on that. So that's... So as a reminder, Jamie was working with five credit cards when she started her debt journey. Yeah, you won't let me forget it. And all of them carried a balance. But once we got them laid out, figuring out how to pay down that debt was going to require some math. A tall order for a couple of art school kids.

We need like maybe to have somebody who knows how to do math. Maybe we should get a mathematician. Getting out of credit card debt was looking harder by the minute. Each minute costing 20.24% more in interest. You know, it would be a lot easier as if we just had a certain amount of money and then we use that money and then we didn't go, we didn't borrow money.

We need like maybe to have somebody who knows how to do math. Maybe we should get a mathematician. Getting out of credit card debt was looking harder by the minute. Each minute costing 20.24% more in interest. You know, it would be a lot easier as if we just had a certain amount of money and then we use that money and then we didn't go, we didn't borrow money.

I first heard Elena Bethea speak on a Zoom call with a debtors' rights activist organization where she was discussing her book, Delinquent. I admit that when the talk began, I was barely paying attention. I only joined, really, in hopes of getting in touch with the event's organizers. But then the words coming out of her mouth caught my attention, and I immediately called Jamie.

I first heard Elena Bethea speak on a Zoom call with a debtors' rights activist organization where she was discussing her book, Delinquent. I admit that when the talk began, I was barely paying attention. I only joined, really, in hopes of getting in touch with the event's organizers. But then the words coming out of her mouth caught my attention, and I immediately called Jamie.

So urgent, we immediately booked train tickets to D.C. just so we could speak to Elena in person and also to eat Amtrak hot dogs. Do you want one or two hot dogs? One. Two. Two.

So urgent, we immediately booked train tickets to D.C. just so we could speak to Elena in person and also to eat Amtrak hot dogs. Do you want one or two hot dogs? One. Two. Two.

Do they have onions? Yes. Like good New Yorkers, we took public transport and walked everywhere with our recording gear.

Do they have onions? Yes. Like good New Yorkers, we took public transport and walked everywhere with our recording gear.

Elena lives in a peaceful neighborhood on a serene, tree-lined block in a hushed and tranquil apartment. In fact, the loudest thing in her living room was the tender patting of her two cats. And me. Because I'm allergic to cats. I'm so sorry. Oh my God, I'm so sorry. But Alina is the kind of person who doesn't get ruffled by two semi-qualified sleuths coughing their way through her apartment.

Elena lives in a peaceful neighborhood on a serene, tree-lined block in a hushed and tranquil apartment. In fact, the loudest thing in her living room was the tender patting of her two cats. And me. Because I'm allergic to cats. I'm so sorry. Oh my God, I'm so sorry. But Alina is the kind of person who doesn't get ruffled by two semi-qualified sleuths coughing their way through her apartment.

She was unfazed by this whirlwind of chaotic energy, which made it easy to understand why she maintains such a measured tone when recounting the significance of the year 1983. And it's not just because of Flashdance.

She was unfazed by this whirlwind of chaotic energy, which made it easy to understand why she maintains such a measured tone when recounting the significance of the year 1983. And it's not just because of Flashdance.

So does that mean that before 1983, people were just walking around on cloud nine? Pockets full of cash, not a care in the world.

So does that mean that before 1983, people were just walking around on cloud nine? Pockets full of cash, not a care in the world.

Okay, so they weren't living in some utopia. They were just not using credit cards.

Okay, so they weren't living in some utopia. They were just not using credit cards.

What's in your wallet?

What's in your wallet?

Elena heard the question, what's in your wallet, loud and clear. And she wanted to answer. So she joined Capital One Bank in the division that helps decide how much gets in your wallet.

Elena heard the question, what's in your wallet, loud and clear. And she wanted to answer. So she joined Capital One Bank in the division that helps decide how much gets in your wallet.

As two people whose curiosities mainly include dancing in the streets whilst blasting music and drinking to-go margaritas, we could not quite relate to Alina's curiosity about lending.

As two people whose curiosities mainly include dancing in the streets whilst blasting music and drinking to-go margaritas, we could not quite relate to Alina's curiosity about lending.

In 1997, I moved to New York City, and it began my long, slow journey to becoming an adult. Right across the street here was Lincoln Plaza Cinemas, which was the best. R.I.P.

In 1997, I moved to New York City, and it began my long, slow journey to becoming an adult. Right across the street here was Lincoln Plaza Cinemas, which was the best. R.I.P.

And speaking of underbellies, it only took a few years working at Capital One before Elena became deeply disillusioned.

And speaking of underbellies, it only took a few years working at Capital One before Elena became deeply disillusioned.

Elena would soon begin to piece together the ways these experiments were affecting real people and their relationship to debt when she embarked on a new position in the credit line increase division at Capital One.

Elena would soon begin to piece together the ways these experiments were affecting real people and their relationship to debt when she embarked on a new position in the credit line increase division at Capital One.

As people in debt, we're often defined by this notion that we have an uncontrollable urge to overspend.

As people in debt, we're often defined by this notion that we have an uncontrollable urge to overspend.

Alana calls this tendency to use more when we have more the portion size effect.

Alana calls this tendency to use more when we have more the portion size effect.

Additional credit is like cigarettes at a party. What? If somebody brings a pack. Oh, it will get smoked.

Additional credit is like cigarettes at a party. What? If somebody brings a pack. Oh, it will get smoked.

Just like me and cigarettes at a party.

Just like me and cigarettes at a party.

I know.

I know.

While Elena was tasked with getting people more credit, Kathleen McDowell was tasked with getting people more of everything.

While Elena was tasked with getting people more credit, Kathleen McDowell was tasked with getting people more of everything.

But it's not just Jamie. In 2025, the share of credit card customers making only minimum payments rose to a 12-year high. I haven't gotten the thank you card from Chase yet.

But it's not just Jamie. In 2025, the share of credit card customers making only minimum payments rose to a 12-year high. I haven't gotten the thank you card from Chase yet.

$6,500 is the average unpaid balance? That's a lot.

$6,500 is the average unpaid balance? That's a lot.

Prior to this move, I had hoarded all of my babysitting, pizza delivery, and art framing income in a modest savings account. But when I got to college, walking the New York streets all by myself, I figured I needed more. And when I entered a bank on 66th and Columbus Avenue, the eager sales associates convinced me to get my first credit card. I remember feeling that this bank really got me.

Prior to this move, I had hoarded all of my babysitting, pizza delivery, and art framing income in a modest savings account. But when I got to college, walking the New York streets all by myself, I figured I needed more. And when I entered a bank on 66th and Columbus Avenue, the eager sales associates convinced me to get my first credit card. I remember feeling that this bank really got me.

Hey, Jamie, do you want $6,000? Yeah. Cool. So just give me $6,000 back in 30 days. Oh, okay. Wait, what? No, actually, I'm sorry. I'll give you $6,000. But in 10 years, I just need you to give me $15,000 back.

Hey, Jamie, do you want $6,000? Yeah. Cool. So just give me $6,000 back in 30 days. Oh, okay. Wait, what? No, actually, I'm sorry. I'll give you $6,000. But in 10 years, I just need you to give me $15,000 back.

It seems to be the only thing most people have gleaned from their lackluster financial education.

It seems to be the only thing most people have gleaned from their lackluster financial education.

Cheers.

Cheers.

This is a storytelling journey into our lives and yours. What's the first word I ever read?

This is a storytelling journey into our lives and yours. What's the first word I ever read?

As well as the seismic but elusive cultural shift.

As well as the seismic but elusive cultural shift.

Let's go return the equipment of the job that is laying me off.

Let's go return the equipment of the job that is laying me off.

We're making this project because we know what it's like to struggle financially.

We're making this project because we know what it's like to struggle financially.

As we like to say around here, we are not alone. You are not alone. Our first official season of the Deadheads podcast is coming out in early 2025.

As we like to say around here, we are not alone. You are not alone. Our first official season of the Deadheads podcast is coming out in early 2025.

Follow along on Instagram and TikTok and listen wherever you get your podcasts.