Professor Edith Hall

Well, he does. And the scenes of his, when he goes berserk, literally berserk, he's a berserker on the battlefield and loses it in the bloodlust, are very, very exciting. But those are actually delayed all the way through until we get to the last four, five books. He's kept in his tent, nursing his grievance for almost all of the poem. And in fact, we're on his side.

Well, he does. And the scenes of his, when he goes berserk, literally berserk, he's a berserker on the battlefield and loses it in the bloodlust, are very, very exciting. But those are actually delayed all the way through until we get to the last four, five books. He's kept in his tent, nursing his grievance for almost all of the poem. And in fact, we're on his side.

One of the reasons this poem is so good is it throws us straight into a crisis. in the Achaean camp, they're called Achaeans, not Greeks, in the Achaean camp, because there's all dying of plague because their ridiculous king, Agamemnon, has decided it's okay to kidnap the daughter of the local priest of Apollo because he fancies her. And Apollo's not having this. So he's killing them all off.

One of the reasons this poem is so good is it throws us straight into a crisis. in the Achaean camp, they're called Achaeans, not Greeks, in the Achaean camp, because there's all dying of plague because their ridiculous king, Agamemnon, has decided it's okay to kidnap the daughter of the local priest of Apollo because he fancies her. And Apollo's not having this. So he's killing them all off.

And there's a crisis, what we're going to do. And there's a meeting. And Achilles has been terribly insulted by Agamemnon. Agamemnon agrees grudgingly to give this young woman back to her father, Chrysaia. But he says, hmm, what's the next prettiest girl in camp? Oh, I know. It's the one that Achilles has got, Briseis. I'll have her, right? I'm kingier than you. There's actually this adjective.

And there's a crisis, what we're going to do. And there's a meeting. And Achilles has been terribly insulted by Agamemnon. Agamemnon agrees grudgingly to give this young woman back to her father, Chrysaia. But he says, hmm, what's the next prettiest girl in camp? Oh, I know. It's the one that Achilles has got, Briseis. I'll have her, right? I'm kingier than you. There's actually this adjective.

We have a word for being kingy. And there's a superlative, basileutatos. I am the kingiest here.

We have a word for being kingy. And there's a superlative, basileutatos. I am the kingiest here.

I'm the kingiest. Well, it's an adjective. I'm the most kingly. I'm the kingiest. I'm going to have Briseis. Achilles, quite understandably, says, you what? And what you have is a row which sets up this really political theme because Agamemnon is by heredity the most powerful king, only because he's the son of the son of the son. By far the best warrior is Achilles.

I'm the kingiest. Well, it's an adjective. I'm the most kingly. I'm the kingiest. I'm going to have Briseis. Achilles, quite understandably, says, you what? And what you have is a row which sets up this really political theme because Agamemnon is by heredity the most powerful king, only because he's the son of the son of the son. By far the best warrior is Achilles.

He is by far the best warrior on the Achaean side, and he's the best warrior in the poem, and he's the best warrior in the world. And he has gone around and got lots and lots and lots of gold and booty from all the little towns they've already conquered in northwest Turkey, as it is now. How do you treat your best lieutenant who has helped you to wage war incredibly successfully and lucratively?

He is by far the best warrior on the Achaean side, and he's the best warrior in the poem, and he's the best warrior in the world. And he has gone around and got lots and lots and lots of gold and booty from all the little towns they've already conquered in northwest Turkey, as it is now. How do you treat your best lieutenant who has helped you to wage war incredibly successfully and lucratively?

You insult him. You take his girlfriend. So Achilles lays it all out. He says, you may be kingier than me, but I'm much more soldiery than you. But it's absolutely thrilling because we're still having debates about whether we should abolish the House of Lords' hereditary peers.

You insult him. You take his girlfriend. So Achilles lays it all out. He says, you may be kingier than me, but I'm much more soldiery than you. But it's absolutely thrilling because we're still having debates about whether we should abolish the House of Lords' hereditary peers.

These are still issues, whether you should be able to rise on merit or whether it's all a matter of what sort of class and family you're born into. So it's burningly political. And we're all on Achilles' side. So Homer, let's just call all these poets for shorthand Homer, makes sure that although he behaves appallingly, we really get why he's so angry with his boss.

These are still issues, whether you should be able to rise on merit or whether it's all a matter of what sort of class and family you're born into. So it's burningly political. And we're all on Achilles' side. So Homer, let's just call all these poets for shorthand Homer, makes sure that although he behaves appallingly, we really get why he's so angry with his boss.

We've all had, everybody has had a boss at some point who is less able than they are. And it is incredibly aggravating having to take orders from them and being exploited and mistreated by them. We've all been in that situation. Or we felt like that about a parent being arbitrary, right? There is no human in the world who has not been in Achilles' psychological situation.

We've all had, everybody has had a boss at some point who is less able than they are. And it is incredibly aggravating having to take orders from them and being exploited and mistreated by them. We've all been in that situation. Or we felt like that about a parent being arbitrary, right? There is no human in the world who has not been in Achilles' psychological situation.

So that is the genius of it, that even though his behaviour becomes utterly reprehensible, we're on his side for most of the poem.

So that is the genius of it, that even though his behaviour becomes utterly reprehensible, we're on his side for most of the poem.

Absolutely. And I'm absolutely willing him to stay in his tent and not help the overlord. The Achaean camp is a pretty dire, violent, aggressive, shouty place. You know, there's lots of rows, lots of aggression. The one scene of real peace in the Achaean camp is Achilles' beautiful tent. He's got these soldiers who would give their lives for him, the Myrmidons.

Absolutely. And I'm absolutely willing him to stay in his tent and not help the overlord. The Achaean camp is a pretty dire, violent, aggressive, shouty place. You know, there's lots of rows, lots of aggression. The one scene of real peace in the Achaean camp is Achilles' beautiful tent. He's got these soldiers who would give their lives for him, the Myrmidons.

He has absolute loyalty from his men because unlike Agamemnon, he will always lead from the front. He'll take every risk they do. He'll do anything for them. And the Myrmidons, he withdraws from the war as well. So they spend their time. Achilles plays the lyre. He becomes a poet who sings songs. Patroclus, his boyfriend, has got pet dogs.

He has absolute loyalty from his men because unlike Agamemnon, he will always lead from the front. He'll take every risk they do. He'll do anything for them. And the Myrmidons, he withdraws from the war as well. So they spend their time. Achilles plays the lyre. He becomes a poet who sings songs. Patroclus, his boyfriend, has got pet dogs.

And they retire to their tent and actually have this rather idyllic thing. It's ambiguous about homoeroticism. They are madly in love with each other, Achilles and Patroclus, but actually they both sleep with women in this tent.

And they retire to their tent and actually have this rather idyllic thing. It's ambiguous about homoeroticism. They are madly in love with each other, Achilles and Patroclus, but actually they both sleep with women in this tent.

So they're having this idyllic time, sort of sex and music and all the rest of it, while all the other Achilles are not doing very well on the battlefield because they haven't got Achilles.

So they're having this idyllic time, sort of sex and music and all the rest of it, while all the other Achilles are not doing very well on the battlefield because they haven't got Achilles.

Well, he's crucial. And again, the artistry of Homer, Patroclus most unusually has the attribute of gentleness. And we're told everybody loved him because he was so gentle. This is paradoxical in an Iliadic warrior. But for example, Briseis... Loves him. She's Asiatic. She loves this friend, which she's given back to Achilles.

Well, he's crucial. And again, the artistry of Homer, Patroclus most unusually has the attribute of gentleness. And we're told everybody loved him because he was so gentle. This is paradoxical in an Iliadic warrior. But for example, Briseis... Loves him. She's Asiatic. She loves this friend, which she's given back to Achilles.

And we learn that she says she really loved him because he was kind to her. He was actually kind to a captive slave girl. And because he said he would help her to get Achilles to marry her, which would move her up from being bride of the spear, as they used to call it in 19th century translations, basically a rape victim, war rape victim. If she actually got married, she should secure her future.

And we learn that she says she really loved him because he was kind to her. He was actually kind to a captive slave girl. And because he said he would help her to get Achilles to marry her, which would move her up from being bride of the spear, as they used to call it in 19th century translations, basically a rape victim, war rape victim. If she actually got married, she should secure her future.

So you've got this person who's given real moral attributes, which are most rare in this poem, that he's even kind to slave women. And he is a little older than Achilles. He's a sort of an adoptive brother. He was brought up. He'd fled to Achilles' household because he'd accidentally killed someone. Well, not quite accidentally, actually, but he'd made a big mistake as a young man.

So you've got this person who's given real moral attributes, which are most rare in this poem, that he's even kind to slave women. And he is a little older than Achilles. He's a sort of an adoptive brother. He was brought up. He'd fled to Achilles' household because he'd accidentally killed someone. Well, not quite accidentally, actually, but he'd made a big mistake as a young man.

He'd fled, was brought up alongside Achilles. So they're brought up as brothers, but because they're not actually brothers by blood, a very, very intense relationship. forms between them. In other ancient Greek sources, it's unashamedly homoerotic. Homer doesn't have homoerotic relationships in the Iliad.

He'd fled, was brought up alongside Achilles. So they're brought up as brothers, but because they're not actually brothers by blood, a very, very intense relationship. forms between them. In other ancient Greek sources, it's unashamedly homoerotic. Homer doesn't have homoerotic relationships in the Iliad.

It's just not the cognitive contract with the audience, but certainly the most intense emotional bond in the poem is between Achilles and Patroclus. And very interestingly, a psychoanalyst called Jonathan Shea wrote a very famous book called Achilles in Vietnam in the 1990s. He worked with a lot of veterans.

It's just not the cognitive contract with the audience, but certainly the most intense emotional bond in the poem is between Achilles and Patroclus. And very interestingly, a psychoanalyst called Jonathan Shea wrote a very famous book called Achilles in Vietnam in the 1990s. He worked with a lot of veterans.

And that sort of intense bond happened in Vietnam between squaddies, American Marines and so on who were out there, especially where there was an unpopular commander.

And that sort of intense bond happened in Vietnam between squaddies, American Marines and so on who were out there, especially where there was an unpopular commander.

Yes, because Patroclus, when the Achaeans are really not doing well at all, persuades Achilles that Achilles isn't going to fight. But he says, just let me go and fight. Wear your armor. You don't have to, but I'm going to go in. And Achilles doesn't want to let him, but he does go in. And of course, he gets killed. And it's the death of Patroclus that makes Achilles angry.

Yes, because Patroclus, when the Achaeans are really not doing well at all, persuades Achilles that Achilles isn't going to fight. But he says, just let me go and fight. Wear your armor. You don't have to, but I'm going to go in. And Achilles doesn't want to let him, but he does go in. And of course, he gets killed. And it's the death of Patroclus that makes Achilles angry.

not relinquish his rage with Agamemnon, but his rage with Hector overshadows that. So he no longer thinks the Agamemnon insult that pales into its significance besides his bereavement. That's the moment when he says he's got to go back to fight, but he hasn't got any arms.

not relinquish his rage with Agamemnon, but his rage with Hector overshadows that. So he no longer thinks the Agamemnon insult that pales into its significance besides his bereavement. That's the moment when he says he's got to go back to fight, but he hasn't got any arms.

So his mother has to go to Hephaestus for the new arms for Achilles, and he goes back into battle, very hastily makes up with Agamemnon. It doesn't really matter to him anymore. And the rage against Hector is, of course, expressed in the most violent terms.

So his mother has to go to Hephaestus for the new arms for Achilles, and he goes back into battle, very hastily makes up with Agamemnon. It doesn't really matter to him anymore. And the rage against Hector is, of course, expressed in the most violent terms.

Achilles actually sacrifices human captives from Troy, some youths, 12 youths from Troy, kills them over the pyre of Patroclus, such is his rage. And there is no human sacrifice in the Iliad, and it's one of the very few times where the authorial voice said, he did a bad thing.

Achilles actually sacrifices human captives from Troy, some youths, 12 youths from Troy, kills them over the pyre of Patroclus, such is his rage. And there is no human sacrifice in the Iliad, and it's one of the very few times where the authorial voice said, he did a bad thing.

Absolutely. Indeed, when he finally goes into battle, there's a special word for it. It's a certain kind of scene in Iliad, and other characters get them, called an aristia, which means showing off your excellence at fighting. Right. So Diomedes gets one. He's another very good Achaean warrior in book five, where you kill serially, you know, like 10 goals one after another in a football match.

Absolutely. Indeed, when he finally goes into battle, there's a special word for it. It's a certain kind of scene in Iliad, and other characters get them, called an aristia, which means showing off your excellence at fighting. Right. So Diomedes gets one. He's another very good Achaean warrior in book five, where you kill serially, you know, like 10 goals one after another in a football match.

You kill the enemy in a fit of bloodlust that could go on for several hours. And I think the ancient audiences, I use the goal analogy mindfully because I think it was very exciting to listen to them. that yes, another Trojan bites the dust and yes, another one. And they're all killed in slightly different ways.

You kill the enemy in a fit of bloodlust that could go on for several hours. And I think the ancient audiences, I use the goal analogy mindfully because I think it was very exciting to listen to them. that yes, another Trojan bites the dust and yes, another one. And they're all killed in slightly different ways.

So the spear goes through their belly or the spear goes through their larynx or the spear goes through their eye or lots of stuff. And I suspect that the ancient audiences were cheering with every one. Achilles kills so many that the river Scamander, which is the great river that comes down from Mount Ida to the sea and provides water for Troy, gets all blocked up with corpses.

So the spear goes through their belly or the spear goes through their larynx or the spear goes through their eye or lots of stuff. And I suspect that the ancient audiences were cheering with every one. Achilles kills so many that the river Scamander, which is the great river that comes down from Mount Ida to the sea and provides water for Troy, gets all blocked up with corpses.

They all jump in the river to try to escape. He kills them in the river. The river is completely dammed with corpses. So at that point, the river assumes anthropomorphic form. That means he takes on the form of a human. and is so angry with Achilles for polluting his lovely waters. And also Achilles pulls all the trees down that line the riverbank. He destroys the beauty of the whole riverscape.

They all jump in the river to try to escape. He kills them in the river. The river is completely dammed with corpses. So at that point, the river assumes anthropomorphic form. That means he takes on the form of a human. and is so angry with Achilles for polluting his lovely waters. And also Achilles pulls all the trees down that line the riverbank. He destroys the beauty of the whole riverscape.

So Scamander fights Achilles Achilles in the most terrifying way, because he's bigger and he's a god, and he would have defeated Achilles. He, in fact, even calls on another river, one of his tributaries, to come and help him. But Hera, at that point, sends in fire, who fights the river instead. But already, the river has flooded the entire Trojan plain. So it's like a dam bursting.

So Scamander fights Achilles Achilles in the most terrifying way, because he's bigger and he's a god, and he would have defeated Achilles. He, in fact, even calls on another river, one of his tributaries, to come and help him. But Hera, at that point, sends in fire, who fights the river instead. But already, the river has flooded the entire Trojan plain. So it's like a dam bursting.

I was writing about this in my latest book, this particular scene, when there was that terrible, terrible, terrible, I think it was 2023, the dams burst in Libya, I don't know if you remember, and killed tens of thousands of people. And it was caused by human technological failure. This was not an earthquake. This was a human dam. that burst, right?

I was writing about this in my latest book, this particular scene, when there was that terrible, terrible, terrible, I think it was 2023, the dams burst in Libya, I don't know if you remember, and killed tens of thousands of people. And it was caused by human technological failure. This was not an earthquake. This was a human dam. that burst, right?

And that's what it's like with the river Sigmund. A human pollutes his waters. Human blocks it up. This is Achilles. And the river retaliates and causes far, far more destruction. So I see this as an environmental parable.

And that's what it's like with the river Sigmund. A human pollutes his waters. Human blocks it up. This is Achilles. And the river retaliates and causes far, far more destruction. So I see this as an environmental parable.

The Iliad is one of the oldest Greek epics. It is probably the oldest, depending on how old Hesiod's are. It's older than the Odyssey slightly. It was probably put together in the form we've got it in the middle of the 8th century BCE. but it had been in development since at least the 14th century. It is over 16,000 lines long, and they're long lines.

The Iliad is one of the oldest Greek epics. It is probably the oldest, depending on how old Hesiod's are. It's older than the Odyssey slightly. It was probably put together in the form we've got it in the middle of the 8th century BCE. but it had been in development since at least the 14th century. It is over 16,000 lines long, and they're long lines.

Oh, gosh, yes. And he's a worthy opponent for Achilles.

Oh, gosh, yes. And he's a worthy opponent for Achilles.

He's more heroic for many reasons. One is that he's 100% mortal. Achilles has got this advantage that he's bionic. He's half divine. His mother is Thetis. He's got supernatural powers on the battlefield. The only reason he'll ever die is because of his ankle. And of course, that's not in this poem. But he could have been fully immortal. He's very nearly fully immortal.

He's more heroic for many reasons. One is that he's 100% mortal. Achilles has got this advantage that he's bionic. He's half divine. His mother is Thetis. He's got supernatural powers on the battlefield. The only reason he'll ever die is because of his ankle. And of course, that's not in this poem. But he could have been fully immortal. He's very nearly fully immortal.

Hector is 100% ordinary guy. He's the Prince of Troy. He loves his dad very much, Priam. His dad, Priam, is too old to run military ops. So while Priam is still administrative king, Hector is his commander-in-chief and shares the monarchical duties. He's a lovely husband. This is one of the really big contrasts that were

Hector is 100% ordinary guy. He's the Prince of Troy. He loves his dad very much, Priam. His dad, Priam, is too old to run military ops. So while Priam is still administrative king, Hector is his commander-in-chief and shares the monarchical duties. He's a lovely husband. This is one of the really big contrasts that were

Achilles and Agamemnon are raping all these slave girls by compulsion and coercion. Hector's got this wife who adores him. He's not adulterous. He's got a baby son who adores him. All his people adore him. He's nice to his mother. He's even nice to Helen. And he is fighting a defensive war.

Achilles and Agamemnon are raping all these slave girls by compulsion and coercion. Hector's got this wife who adores him. He's not adulterous. He's got a baby son who adores him. All his people adore him. He's nice to his mother. He's even nice to Helen. And he is fighting a defensive war.

And how many of us these days, most of us do not glorify aggressive militarism, but can absolutely identify with somebody who's risking his life to defend his people, his wife and his baby. This is the acceptable face of violence for most of us is defensive. So he's got all these moral cards stacked in his favor. And he is impetuous.

And how many of us these days, most of us do not glorify aggressive militarism, but can absolutely identify with somebody who's risking his life to defend his people, his wife and his baby. This is the acceptable face of violence for most of us is defensive. So he's got all these moral cards stacked in his favor. And he is impetuous.

That is his main failing, that he doesn't deliberate properly before engaging in military strategies. But he also, there's a crucial moment before the final showdown where he could go back into Troy. He could. He's been fighting for days. He could go back in and he stands on the battlefield and says, it's a very metaphysical moment.

That is his main failing, that he doesn't deliberate properly before engaging in military strategies. But he also, there's a crucial moment before the final showdown where he could go back into Troy. He could. He's been fighting for days. He could go back in and he stands on the battlefield and says, it's a very metaphysical moment.

Shall I go back in and feel shame before the women of Troy with their trailing robes that I'm not out there fighting for them? Shall I go inside and survive, be safe, but feel shame? Or shall I just die and do a big thing? And this big thing is the actual translation of the Greek, megaterexon. Having done a big thing, and I will at least get immortal fame, go down nobly.

Shall I go back in and feel shame before the women of Troy with their trailing robes that I'm not out there fighting for them? Shall I go inside and survive, be safe, but feel shame? Or shall I just die and do a big thing? And this big thing is the actual translation of the Greek, megaterexon. Having done a big thing, and I will at least get immortal fame, go down nobly.

And that's what he decides to do. And of course, the gods help Achilles. Hector doesn't have a chance. But I cry in book 22 when Hector dies.

And that's what he decides to do. And of course, the gods help Achilles. Hector doesn't have a chance. But I cry in book 22 when Hector dies.

It's extraordinary. It's book six. He's on the wall. She meets him on the wall with the baby and begs him not to go. And then she tries to give him military advice about sticking near the wall where it's safer and this, that, and the next thing. And he will not. He will not heed her. And in fact, of course, Troy would fall anyway. I mean, he's right in a way, but it is absolutely heartbreaking.

It's extraordinary. It's book six. He's on the wall. She meets him on the wall with the baby and begs him not to go. And then she tries to give him military advice about sticking near the wall where it's safer and this, that, and the next thing. And he will not. He will not heed her. And in fact, of course, Troy would fall anyway. I mean, he's right in a way, but it is absolutely heartbreaking.

And even more heartbreaking is when she gets the news in Book 22 when he is killed. She's actually inside weaving and she hears the noise and runs out, tears off her veil and faints and collapses. And then we next see her in the final book leading the women of Troy's lament over her lovely husband. So

And even more heartbreaking is when she gets the news in Book 22 when he is killed. She's actually inside weaving and she hears the noise and runs out, tears off her veil and faints and collapses. And then we next see her in the final book leading the women of Troy's lament over her lovely husband. So

It's very carefully done, and this is why it's so much better than most movies of, as I talk about Clint Eastwood's and stuff. Usually in Clint Eastwood movies, you don't have, with the final shootout, you've got proper bad guys being done in, right? They're very simple morally. The Iliad is anything but bad.

It's very carefully done, and this is why it's so much better than most movies of, as I talk about Clint Eastwood's and stuff. Usually in Clint Eastwood movies, you don't have, with the final shootout, you've got proper bad guys being done in, right? They're very simple morally. The Iliad is anything but bad.

Although these Achaeans are ancestors of the Greek audiences, they're not as nice as the Trojans, and that is really cleverly done. It makes it very morally balanced. Hector's father comes into his own in the last book because Achilles has been abusing the corpse of Hector famously, dragging it, tying him by the ankles to the back of his chariot and driving it round and round Troy.

Although these Achaeans are ancestors of the Greek audiences, they're not as nice as the Trojans, and that is really cleverly done. It makes it very morally balanced. Hector's father comes into his own in the last book because Achilles has been abusing the corpse of Hector famously, dragging it, tying him by the ankles to the back of his chariot and driving it round and round Troy.

He stopped doing that because the gods intervened. But Priam has to go very bravely, an old man, into the enemy camp and asks Achilles to hand over the body. And do you know what he does? They have this incredible redemptive moment where they look admiringly at each other. They both lost so much. Achilles has lost Patroclus, Priam has lost Hector, and these two warring kings just get each other.

He stopped doing that because the gods intervened. But Priam has to go very bravely, an old man, into the enemy camp and asks Achilles to hand over the body. And do you know what he does? They have this incredible redemptive moment where they look admiringly at each other. They both lost so much. Achilles has lost Patroclus, Priam has lost Hector, and these two warring kings just get each other.

They're a particular metre called the dactylic hexameter, which has six beats and is quite a long line. It's much longer than, say, the iambic pentameter we're used to in Shakespeare. It tells the story of a 40-day period towards the end of the 10-year Trojan War.

They're a particular metre called the dactylic hexameter, which has six beats and is quite a long line. It's much longer than, say, the iambic pentameter we're used to in Shakespeare. It tells the story of a 40-day period towards the end of the 10-year Trojan War.

You want to say, why didn't you have that conversation 24 books ago?

You want to say, why didn't you have that conversation 24 books ago?

Yeah, of the actually ordinary human who has sacrificed everything to try and save the people we've come to be very fond of in the course of the poem.

Yeah, of the actually ordinary human who has sacrificed everything to try and save the people we've come to be very fond of in the course of the poem.

And his wife, and Hecuba.

And his wife, and Hecuba.

Well, we've got goddesses a lot. Thetis is Achilles' mother who will do anything for him and is a very emotionally sophisticated figure who intervenes with Zeus for him, intervenes with Hephaestus. We've got Hera and Athena and Artemis. We have the goddesses. But the gods are really amoral and childish compared with the humans. That's both men and women. But the women are fascinating.

Well, we've got goddesses a lot. Thetis is Achilles' mother who will do anything for him and is a very emotionally sophisticated figure who intervenes with Zeus for him, intervenes with Hephaestus. We've got Hera and Athena and Artemis. We have the goddesses. But the gods are really amoral and childish compared with the humans. That's both men and women. But the women are fascinating.

So the big women are Chryseis and Briseis. But they don't get very much to say. Briseis has this one wonderful speech, lament for Patroclus when she says how not kind he was to her. We have Andromache, who is very proud and very tender, an admirable wife and mother, exactly the sort of person whose civilization shouldn't be destroyed. We have Hecuba, equally madly loves Hector, Zaha's son.

So the big women are Chryseis and Briseis. But they don't get very much to say. Briseis has this one wonderful speech, lament for Patroclus when she says how not kind he was to her. We have Andromache, who is very proud and very tender, an admirable wife and mother, exactly the sort of person whose civilization shouldn't be destroyed. We have Hecuba, equally madly loves Hector, Zaha's son.

And of course, we have Helen. Helen appears in book three and regrets bitterly. She tells us how much she regrets what she's done. She, I think, fancies Hector rather than Paris. She has a bit of a flirt with Hector in book six, and he doesn't blame her. He's kind even to Helen. He sees this is a man's game and that she's just a pawn in man's game. She also sings a lament for Hector.

And of course, we have Helen. Helen appears in book three and regrets bitterly. She tells us how much she regrets what she's done. She, I think, fancies Hector rather than Paris. She has a bit of a flirt with Hector in book six, and he doesn't blame her. He's kind even to Helen. He sees this is a man's game and that she's just a pawn in man's game. She also sings a lament for Hector.

There's four women who sing laments in Book 24, and that is Andromache, Hecuba, Helen, and Cassandra. We meet Cassandra in Book 24. Of course, by having Cassandra in, we know that somebody there knows everything that's going to happen. It's very clever. But I mean, so we've got in the final book, we have Hector's mother, wife, sister and sister-in-law, right?

There's four women who sing laments in Book 24, and that is Andromache, Hecuba, Helen, and Cassandra. We meet Cassandra in Book 24. Of course, by having Cassandra in, we know that somebody there knows everything that's going to happen. It's very clever. But I mean, so we've got in the final book, we have Hector's mother, wife, sister and sister-in-law, right?

So it's the full compliment and they all love him.

So it's the full compliment and they all love him.

The main way that they're there is to show how much greater humans are as moral agents, precisely because the gods can't die. They're deprived of any real tragic dimension. All these humans are facing mortality and the real cost of having to act. The gods are basically unaccountable and can be irresponsible. They can get injured. There's some fighting between them.

The main way that they're there is to show how much greater humans are as moral agents, precisely because the gods can't die. They're deprived of any real tragic dimension. All these humans are facing mortality and the real cost of having to act. The gods are basically unaccountable and can be irresponsible. They can get injured. There's some fighting between them.

The worst one of all, and I'm quite fond of him because he's so awful, is Ares. because all the other gods are on one side or another for historic reasons. There are reasons why, to do with their alliances, to do with the judgment of Paris, to do with who of them have got children on the battlefield or grandchildren, except for Zeus, who's kind of up there and a bit kind of weirdly disengaged.

The worst one of all, and I'm quite fond of him because he's so awful, is Ares. because all the other gods are on one side or another for historic reasons. There are reasons why, to do with their alliances, to do with the judgment of Paris, to do with who of them have got children on the battlefield or grandchildren, except for Zeus, who's kind of up there and a bit kind of weirdly disengaged.

He's just got to make sure fate takes its course. But he's sad because he says the Trojans were the most pious people who always sacrificed a lot to him. But Ares is wonderful because he can't remember what side he's on. He's not on any side. So Athena is the goddess of tactical warfare and planned warfare. He's the god of just mindless thuggery.

He's just got to make sure fate takes its course. But he's sad because he says the Trojans were the most pious people who always sacrificed a lot to him. But Ares is wonderful because he can't remember what side he's on. He's not on any side. So Athena is the goddess of tactical warfare and planned warfare. He's the god of just mindless thuggery.

So in book five, he's on the battlefield and he starts just jumping around, killing anybody.

So in book five, he's on the battlefield and he starts just jumping around, killing anybody.

There's even a word that says that. He's alloprosolos, which means he jumps to one side and then to the other side. And Athena says, what is the problem with you? You know, fighting's okay if you've got a motive or a reason that you can explain, but this is just violence for the sake of it. And, you know, I've seen scenes like that in Glaswegian pubs.

There's even a word that says that. He's alloprosolos, which means he jumps to one side and then to the other side. And Athena says, what is the problem with you? You know, fighting's okay if you've got a motive or a reason that you can explain, but this is just violence for the sake of it. And, you know, I've seen scenes like that in Glaswegian pubs.

It's quite remarkable, just the cultural longevity. I mean, one of the reasons for that, though, was that once it was actually written down, this is what happened in the middle of the 8th century, it became the absolutely standard fare of ancient education for then more than 1,000 years.

It's quite remarkable, just the cultural longevity. I mean, one of the reasons for that, though, was that once it was actually written down, this is what happened in the middle of the 8th century, it became the absolutely standard fare of ancient education for then more than 1,000 years.

And river gods. And river gods. Yeah. No, it's a whole panoply and they've got different status. And there are arguments about status. So the last guy that Achilles kills before he fights the river is called Asteripheus. And he's come very recently to Troy. And he's the son of a Thracian river.

And river gods. And river gods. Yeah. No, it's a whole panoply and they've got different status. And there are arguments about status. So the last guy that Achilles kills before he fights the river is called Asteripheus. And he's come very recently to Troy. And he's the son of a Thracian river.

So we have this god-off where it's like, is somebody who's the son of a big river more important than someone who's the son of a sea goddess? It's like the status game. It's a parody, in a way, of status in human life. Like, am I kingier than you? That extends into how much divine blood... Am I goddier than you?

So we have this god-off where it's like, is somebody who's the son of a big river more important than someone who's the son of a sea goddess? It's like the status game. It's a parody, in a way, of status in human life. Like, am I kingier than you? That extends into how much divine blood... Am I goddier than you?

Am I goddier than you? Yeah. It's absolutely wonderful. But the gods' counterpoint is crucial because at the end of the day, you always have this amazing formula like, they just went back to feast and inextinguishable laughter arose amongst the gods. I mean, they're up there just laughing while humans are fighting, dying, and losing their nearest and dearest.

Am I goddier than you? Yeah. It's absolutely wonderful. But the gods' counterpoint is crucial because at the end of the day, you always have this amazing formula like, they just went back to feast and inextinguishable laughter arose amongst the gods. I mean, they're up there just laughing while humans are fighting, dying, and losing their nearest and dearest.

Oh, definitely, without a doubt. In terms of the general pattern, we know this. Linear B is a script that was used by people of the era of Agamemnon and Achilles, right? The Greeks subsequently lost that script and lost it for several hundred years until the writing that came in from the Venetians with which they wrote down the poems in the 8th century.

Oh, definitely, without a doubt. In terms of the general pattern, we know this. Linear B is a script that was used by people of the era of Agamemnon and Achilles, right? The Greeks subsequently lost that script and lost it for several hundred years until the writing that came in from the Venetians with which they wrote down the poems in the 8th century.

But we know from remains of that script from places in the Peloponnese and Crete that there were raiding parties going out from Greece to get women and booty and stuff from the Eastern Aegean and what's now Anatolia, the west coast of Turkey. This is historically attested fact. That is more historically attested than the actual site of Troy.

But we know from remains of that script from places in the Peloponnese and Crete that there were raiding parties going out from Greece to get women and booty and stuff from the Eastern Aegean and what's now Anatolia, the west coast of Turkey. This is historically attested fact. That is more historically attested than the actual site of Troy.

We are not sure whether people have identified there is a Bronze Age palace of the right kind of date. at a place called Hisarlik, which since the mid-19th century, everybody's said is probably Troy. And I think it probably is. But whether actually a man called Agamemnon went and led any of these parties is irrelevant.

We are not sure whether people have identified there is a Bronze Age palace of the right kind of date. at a place called Hisarlik, which since the mid-19th century, everybody's said is probably Troy. And I think it probably is. But whether actually a man called Agamemnon went and led any of these parties is irrelevant.

So we know, for example, that young Athenian aristocratic boys were expected to know it off by heart, the whole thing off by heart. I mean, it's just incredible history. but they were expected to know top by heart if they had a good education. And that remained so throughout the Roman Empire all the way through

So we know, for example, that young Athenian aristocratic boys were expected to know it off by heart, the whole thing off by heart. I mean, it's just incredible history. but they were expected to know top by heart if they had a good education. And that remained so throughout the Roman Empire all the way through

There was a thalassocracy, that means a sea power in the Bronze Age of these Mycenaean Greeks who wrote in Linear B and they were engaged in trading and aggressive activities for trading raiding, I think. in precisely those areas, especially around the Hellespont, which was always a strategic hotspot.

There was a thalassocracy, that means a sea power in the Bronze Age of these Mycenaean Greeks who wrote in Linear B and they were engaged in trading and aggressive activities for trading raiding, I think. in precisely those areas, especially around the Hellespont, which was always a strategic hotspot.

It's very apocalyptic in its imagination. Strangely, a lot of this happens in similes, but you have countless similes that the soldiers descended on the other side like a wildfire sweeping over a mountain, or they rise up like a wave that crashes and destroys everything in its path. earthquake sort of stuff. One mention is of terrible hunger, famine. There's only one, and that's in the last book.

It's very apocalyptic in its imagination. Strangely, a lot of this happens in similes, but you have countless similes that the soldiers descended on the other side like a wildfire sweeping over a mountain, or they rise up like a wave that crashes and destroys everything in its path. earthquake sort of stuff. One mention is of terrible hunger, famine. There's only one, and that's in the last book.

But I think that there are poetically encoded memories of the collapse of the Bronze Age civilizations with their tsunamis and fires and famines and displacements. I think that we're talking a post-apocalyptic poem. The Greeks of the 8th century could see around them ruins of these great Mycenaean palaces.

But I think that there are poetically encoded memories of the collapse of the Bronze Age civilizations with their tsunamis and fires and famines and displacements. I think that we're talking a post-apocalyptic poem. The Greeks of the 8th century could see around them ruins of these great Mycenaean palaces.

They've probably even seen bits of Linear B. We know from tomb findings that they discovered relics of the bronze armor because they're now living in the Iron Age, but they've discovered these bronze relics and so on. So they're construing, as we might, what it was like to be in the age of King Arthur from a handful of medieval artifacts and scraps of poetry, that kind of thing.

They've probably even seen bits of Linear B. We know from tomb findings that they discovered relics of the bronze armor because they're now living in the Iron Age, but they've discovered these bronze relics and so on. So they're construing, as we might, what it was like to be in the age of King Arthur from a handful of medieval artifacts and scraps of poetry, that kind of thing.

So I think the apocalyptic tone is partly memory. But I've argued in this new book, which I'm going to plug, called Epic of the Earth, reading Homer's Iliad and the fight for a dying world. I also think they betray at some level that they knew that they were chopping down too many trees. And they certainly were.

So I think the apocalyptic tone is partly memory. But I've argued in this new book, which I'm going to plug, called Epic of the Earth, reading Homer's Iliad and the fight for a dying world. I also think they betray at some level that they knew that they were chopping down too many trees. And they certainly were.

The deforestation of the periphery of the Mediterranean began in the Bronze Age for three reasons. One was you actually just needed a lot of wood to build all those thousand ships. and all the watch fires and all the palisades. The second was that they cleared land at a disastrous rate for pasturage, all those cattle.

The deforestation of the periphery of the Mediterranean began in the Bronze Age for three reasons. One was you actually just needed a lot of wood to build all those thousand ships. and all the watch fires and all the palisades. The second was that they cleared land at a disastrous rate for pasturage, all those cattle.

This meant it survived in numerous manuscripts in Byzantium when it was lost to the West for about a thousand years, between about 400 CE and pretty much when the Turks invaded Constantinople in the middle of the 15th century. But thank heavens, enough manuscripts before that happened and they destroyed half the libraries.

This meant it survived in numerous manuscripts in Byzantium when it was lost to the West for about a thousand years, between about 400 CE and pretty much when the Turks invaded Constantinople in the middle of the 15th century. But thank heavens, enough manuscripts before that happened and they destroyed half the libraries.

We're facing that now with how much land you need for cattle compared with growing lentils or whatever. And the third reason, and perhaps the most important one, was smelting. The amount of wood you need to make even one piece of bronze armor in terms of the furnaces and the fires is unbelievable.

We're facing that now with how much land you need for cattle compared with growing lentils or whatever. And the third reason, and perhaps the most important one, was smelting. The amount of wood you need to make even one piece of bronze armor in terms of the furnaces and the fires is unbelievable.

So the Iliad is the expression of an age when the Greeks were pushing ever further afield, cutting down ever more forests. Whenever they ran out, they would just move further east, further south, further north, cut down more forests. to feed this, and they believed they were infinite, but they had no knowledge that there were limits to Earth.

So the Iliad is the expression of an age when the Greeks were pushing ever further afield, cutting down ever more forests. Whenever they ran out, they would just move further east, further south, further north, cut down more forests. to feed this, and they believed they were infinite, but they had no knowledge that there were limits to Earth.

Doesn't excuse it, but I think that the Iliad at a subconscious level is letting us know they knew this was a problem.

Doesn't excuse it, but I think that the Iliad at a subconscious level is letting us know they knew this was a problem.

Yes, I think so. I think you have to read it a bit against the grain and you have to, as I say, go for what literary critics call its political unconscious. But it's absolutely there, the amount of the trees of Ida that must have been cut down to keep that war going.

Yes, I think so. I think you have to read it a bit against the grain and you have to, as I say, go for what literary critics call its political unconscious. But it's absolutely there, the amount of the trees of Ida that must have been cut down to keep that war going.

And it's got this incredibly precious fir tree. There's only a few left. It only grows in that area of the world. And it's called the subspecies. Abies is the fir or pine. But it's called the subspecies Trojan horse by botanists because they assume it was. And the fight for the survival of that forest, which is now only at the very top of the mountain, is on now. So we're still living.

And it's got this incredibly precious fir tree. There's only a few left. It only grows in that area of the world. And it's called the subspecies. Abies is the fir or pine. But it's called the subspecies Trojan horse by botanists because they assume it was. And the fight for the survival of that forest, which is now only at the very top of the mountain, is on now. So we're still living.

the aftermath of the rapacious attitude to natural resources that is expressed in this hyper-consumption that's described with glory in the Iliad.

the aftermath of the rapacious attitude to natural resources that is expressed in this hyper-consumption that's described with glory in the Iliad.

Well, I think it can actually help us because we will see that these problems have been going on for 3,000 years and more. I think the Anthropocene started with the invention of bronze, of metallurgy. Before metallurgy, you couldn't really do colonial warfare. You can't do siege warfare by blowing darts out of fennel sticks, throwing ceramics. You can't do it. You had to have metal.

Well, I think it can actually help us because we will see that these problems have been going on for 3,000 years and more. I think the Anthropocene started with the invention of bronze, of metallurgy. Before metallurgy, you couldn't really do colonial warfare. You can't do siege warfare by blowing darts out of fennel sticks, throwing ceramics. You can't do it. You had to have metal.

Metal required all that unbelievable amount of wood. It also required obscene working conditions for slaves, including children, in mines. It's kind of the turning point. I think the Iliad is the poem of the moment our decline started.

Metal required all that unbelievable amount of wood. It also required obscene working conditions for slaves, including children, in mines. It's kind of the turning point. I think the Iliad is the poem of the moment our decline started.

So although it's glorious and wonderful and I want everybody to read it, I think we can read it in a new tragic way that might inspire us to go out and fight for our planet. I want us to use the warfare in the Iliad to fight for our planet.

So although it's glorious and wonderful and I want everybody to read it, I think we can read it in a new tragic way that might inspire us to go out and fight for our planet. I want us to use the warfare in the Iliad to fight for our planet.

enough manuscripts had been got out to Italy to mean that they rolled off the printing presses pretty early on in the history of printing. So by around 1550, there were hundreds of printed copies and people were very energetically beginning to translate it, not just into Latin, because then the lingua franca was Latin, but quite early into modern languages.

enough manuscripts had been got out to Italy to mean that they rolled off the printing presses pretty early on in the history of printing. So by around 1550, there were hundreds of printed copies and people were very energetically beginning to translate it, not just into Latin, because then the lingua franca was Latin, but quite early into modern languages.

And that's why I've written this book and I've dedicated it to my children and all the rest of Generation Z with apologies for the state of the planet, because I am ashamed that I'm 65 years old and I'm handing on

And that's why I've written this book and I've dedicated it to my children and all the rest of Generation Z with apologies for the state of the planet, because I am ashamed that I'm 65 years old and I'm handing on

you know i haven't done more i i really am edith well it's a wonderful book and it's a very very noble cause last but certainly not least the book is called epic of the earth reading homers iliad in the fight for a dying world it's going to be published next month by yale university press and it's a trade book so it is not all that expensive fantastic well edith thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast today thank you very much

you know i haven't done more i i really am edith well it's a wonderful book and it's a very very noble cause last but certainly not least the book is called epic of the earth reading homers iliad in the fight for a dying world it's going to be published next month by yale university press and it's a trade book so it is not all that expensive fantastic well edith thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast today thank you very much

And as soon as that happened, everybody started doing operas and paintings and plays and parodies. And it became once again an absolute staple language. of certainly upper-class education. That's why it's as big as it is. Actually, until quite recently, it wasn't as big as the Odyssey. If you actually think quantitatively, in terms of world culture, there were far more versions of the Odyssey.

And as soon as that happened, everybody started doing operas and paintings and plays and parodies. And it became once again an absolute staple language. of certainly upper-class education. That's why it's as big as it is. Actually, until quite recently, it wasn't as big as the Odyssey. If you actually think quantitatively, in terms of world culture, there were far more versions of the Odyssey.

The Odyssey was exported all over the planet by the Jesuits and things like that. The Iliad did not make so much of an impact, but it just had a quite astonishing revival in the 21st century and I think is now absolutely as familiar as the Odyssey for the first time since antiquity.

The Odyssey was exported all over the planet by the Jesuits and things like that. The Iliad did not make so much of an impact, but it just had a quite astonishing revival in the 21st century and I think is now absolutely as familiar as the Odyssey for the first time since antiquity.

Yes, it's an entire encyclopedia of their civilization and values. I think they were written down because of Greek colonization. So not many people really did know them completely off by heart. If you were going off to found, as they were in the Archaic Age, the 8th, 7th, 6th century, to found colonies on the far northern coast of the Black Sea or in Marseilles or in Egypt or

Yes, it's an entire encyclopedia of their civilization and values. I think they were written down because of Greek colonization. So not many people really did know them completely off by heart. If you were going off to found, as they were in the Archaic Age, the 8th, 7th, 6th century, to found colonies on the far northern coast of the Black Sea or in Marseilles or in Egypt or

you know, all over the Mediterranean Black Sea periphery, then you needed to take your canonical poems with you. I think that that was the spur for them getting written down. So you could take your huge papyrus rolls of the Iliad, the Odyssey, and Hesiod, because they told you everything that you really needed to know. They told you how to do a sacrifice. They told you how to fight the enemy.

you know, all over the Mediterranean Black Sea periphery, then you needed to take your canonical poems with you. I think that that was the spur for them getting written down. So you could take your huge papyrus rolls of the Iliad, the Odyssey, and Hesiod, because they told you everything that you really needed to know. They told you how to do a sacrifice. They told you how to fight the enemy.

They told you how to arm yourself. They told you how to be a heroic male who was going around intrepidly bonking enemies on foreign shores on the head. They were the cultural encyclopedia. And at Athens, we know that every year at the Panathenae, it's the big all Athenian festival in the summer from the 6th century. They were recited all the way through.

They told you how to arm yourself. They told you how to be a heroic male who was going around intrepidly bonking enemies on foreign shores on the head. They were the cultural encyclopedia. And at Athens, we know that every year at the Panathenae, it's the big all Athenian festival in the summer from the 6th century. They were recited all the way through.

The Iliad was recited all the way through by teams of bards every summer. It actually takes about three days to do that.

The Iliad was recited all the way through by teams of bards every summer. It actually takes about three days to do that.

You take with you this cultural heritage and the Iliad, of course, because it's about a united effort by Greeks, even though the word Greek doesn't occur in it yet. It numerates all these mainland Greek cities and some of the islands that sent forces to Troy. So for an awful lot of Greeks, wherever they went in the world, they could trace their ancestry.

You take with you this cultural heritage and the Iliad, of course, because it's about a united effort by Greeks, even though the word Greek doesn't occur in it yet. It numerates all these mainland Greek cities and some of the islands that sent forces to Troy. So for an awful lot of Greeks, wherever they went in the world, they could trace their ancestry.

They believed their own ancestors had been on the Greek side. at Troy. It's an extraordinarily long genealogy that you're taking with you wherever you went.

They believed their own ancestors had been on the Greek side. at Troy. It's an extraordinarily long genealogy that you're taking with you wherever you went.

I don't. In my head, the pattern is that the story got gradually elaborated. It's in 24 books now, but it's got slightly more than that identifiable individual stories that rather than being three days recitation, you could sing of a particular battle during the war, or you could sing the funeral of Patroclus, or you could sing the row between Achilles and Agamemnon, or you could sing

I don't. In my head, the pattern is that the story got gradually elaborated. It's in 24 books now, but it's got slightly more than that identifiable individual stories that rather than being three days recitation, you could sing of a particular battle during the war, or you could sing the funeral of Patroclus, or you could sing the row between Achilles and Agamemnon, or you could sing

the moment that Achilles meets his mother, Thetis. You can cut it down into individual lays, and I think that's how it was probably performed. It got elaborated and elaborated. I think we're probably talking not tens but hundreds of individual bards. They're called rhapsodes. stitches of song who performed it through the dark ages of Greece.

the moment that Achilles meets his mother, Thetis. You can cut it down into individual lays, and I think that's how it was probably performed. It got elaborated and elaborated. I think we're probably talking not tens but hundreds of individual bards. They're called rhapsodes. stitches of song who performed it through the dark ages of Greece.

For whatever reason, as I said, I think it's got a lot to do with colonization. Somebody put it all together in the mid-18th century. Now, that might have been an individual genius because the structure is wonderful. There's real artistry in how it's been all put together. if you like, the final stitcher, whether he was called Omeros or not, I don't know. It's a very peculiar name.

For whatever reason, as I said, I think it's got a lot to do with colonization. Somebody put it all together in the mid-18th century. Now, that might have been an individual genius because the structure is wonderful. There's real artistry in how it's been all put together. if you like, the final stitcher, whether he was called Omeros or not, I don't know. It's a very peculiar name.

It means a hostage. And about 10 different places in ancient Greece claim to be the homeland of Omer. So I don't think we've got any sense of who this individual was, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there wasn't a master hand in pushing it all together because it's very aesthetically satisfying.

It means a hostage. And about 10 different places in ancient Greece claim to be the homeland of Omer. So I don't think we've got any sense of who this individual was, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there wasn't a master hand in pushing it all together because it's very aesthetically satisfying.

It narrates a 40-day period, and it's syncopated. So we're not talking a convenient day, a book sort of thing. Sometimes you have a sort of 10-day gap. They go out to gather wood on the mountains for nine days for the funeral at the end of Patroclus in book 23. And Priam sends his guys out to the mountains for several days.

It narrates a 40-day period, and it's syncopated. So we're not talking a convenient day, a book sort of thing. Sometimes you have a sort of 10-day gap. They go out to gather wood on the mountains for nine days for the funeral at the end of Patroclus in book 23. And Priam sends his guys out to the mountains for several days.

Sometimes, there's a battle that rages across the middle of the poem, which takes up three or four books, just one battle. It doesn't neatly fit into temporal units. It does neatly fit into thematic and dramatically unified individual episodes.

Sometimes, there's a battle that rages across the middle of the poem, which takes up three or four books, just one battle. It doesn't neatly fit into temporal units. It does neatly fit into thematic and dramatically unified individual episodes.

So it was sort of 10 years. And I think we're meant to feel this is in about eighth or ninth year. Once Achilles kills Hector, which is of course the climax, the final showdown, like the shootout in a Clint Eastwood movie that you've been waiting. That's in book 22 of 24. Just as in the Odyssey, when Odysseus finally kills all the suitors, it's in book 22 of 24.

So it was sort of 10 years. And I think we're meant to feel this is in about eighth or ninth year. Once Achilles kills Hector, which is of course the climax, the final showdown, like the shootout in a Clint Eastwood movie that you've been waiting. That's in book 22 of 24. Just as in the Odyssey, when Odysseus finally kills all the suitors, it's in book 22 of 24.

So you've got that sort of whole buildup that is coming. But 40 days is an interesting unit, apart from the number 40, which often is important. A lot of storytelling, you know, it's like knights in the wilderness and that kind of thing. But it allows a real psychological build-up because Achilles is called the Roth of Achilles, really. The first word is Roth.

So you've got that sort of whole buildup that is coming. But 40 days is an interesting unit, apart from the number 40, which often is important. A lot of storytelling, you know, it's like knights in the wilderness and that kind of thing. But it allows a real psychological build-up because Achilles is called the Roth of Achilles, really. The first word is Roth.

Roth, sing me, muse of Achilles, right? It's the 40 days that he was incredibly angry. Yeah. He's first angry with Agamemnon. He's angry with Agamemnon for almost all of that. But then he gets even angrier with Hector because Hector's killed his best friend or lover, however we like to see it, Patroclus. So he actually transfers his anger in Book 90. from Agamemnon to Hector.

Roth, sing me, muse of Achilles, right? It's the 40 days that he was incredibly angry. Yeah. He's first angry with Agamemnon. He's angry with Agamemnon for almost all of that. But then he gets even angrier with Hector because Hector's killed his best friend or lover, however we like to see it, Patroclus. So he actually transfers his anger in Book 90. from Agamemnon to Hector.

But once he's killed Hector, we know that his own death is not far off. That is set up for us in his conversations with his mother, the sea goddess Thetis. So it's a kind of dot, dot, dot ending. Also, the very last line is, thus ended the funeral of Hector. Horse-taming is the last word, which immediately makes you think of the wooden horse, that the Trojans will not be horse-tamers for long.

But once he's killed Hector, we know that his own death is not far off. That is set up for us in his conversations with his mother, the sea goddess Thetis. So it's a kind of dot, dot, dot ending. Also, the very last line is, thus ended the funeral of Hector. Horse-taming is the last word, which immediately makes you think of the wooden horse, that the Trojans will not be horse-tamers for long.

It very much makes you think of the imminent ending of the war and also the death of Achilles I mean, that's a brilliant structure. So it's not a corny American movie where we've got to be told exactly what happened to everybody. It's left on this ambiguous but very dark funeral note.

It very much makes you think of the imminent ending of the war and also the death of Achilles I mean, that's a brilliant structure. So it's not a corny American movie where we've got to be told exactly what happened to everybody. It's left on this ambiguous but very dark funeral note.

Yes, but very slight and very late. We don't mention the judgment of Paris, which is what started it all, because he so offended Hera and Athena when he chose Aphrodite.

Yes, but very slight and very late. We don't mention the judgment of Paris, which is what started it all, because he so offended Hera and Athena when he chose Aphrodite.

Yeah, which meant that he was then allowed to run away with Helen because he chose the most beautiful woman in the world. The judgment of Paris is not mentioned until Book 24, and then only very briefly, right at the end. Paris, we do have Helen in the story. She's a very important character, and we're very aware that Paris and Helen have sex in Book Three.

Yeah, which meant that he was then allowed to run away with Helen because he chose the most beautiful woman in the world. The judgment of Paris is not mentioned until Book 24, and then only very briefly, right at the end. Paris, we do have Helen in the story. She's a very important character, and we're very aware that Paris and Helen have sex in Book Three.

So that thorn in the side of the Greeks, that their beautiful Helen is actually at it inside Troy, is there. But this poem is not very much interested. In the past, for example, we don't hear about the sacrifice of a virgin hire. all those preparations.

So that thorn in the side of the Greeks, that their beautiful Helen is actually at it inside Troy, is there. But this poem is not very much interested. In the past, for example, we don't hear about the sacrifice of a virgin hire. all those preparations.

We do hear about a couple of omens, but it's pretty much in the now and we don't get any real predictions of the future, except just once we're told that the plains of Troy would be completely flattened and obliterated as if nothing had ever been there, which is pretty horrific.

We do hear about a couple of omens, but it's pretty much in the now and we don't get any real predictions of the future, except just once we're told that the plains of Troy would be completely flattened and obliterated as if nothing had ever been there, which is pretty horrific.

We hear what the gods and the rivers are going to do after the war to obliterate Troy, but you're very much in the moment. You're in this terrible psychological warfare going on between these, all of them, arrogant, aggressive narcissists, basically, on the Greek side anyway. That's something we could talk about, is how much more pleasant the Trojans are.

We hear what the gods and the rivers are going to do after the war to obliterate Troy, but you're very much in the moment. You're in this terrible psychological warfare going on between these, all of them, arrogant, aggressive narcissists, basically, on the Greek side anyway. That's something we could talk about, is how much more pleasant the Trojans are.

Yes, because his fleets are becalmed by Artemis. For reasons, I mean, none of this is in the Iliad and it's explained differently. So in order to get the winds to sail for Troy, he had to sacrifice his daughter, Iphigenia. That sets up, you know, the audience of the Iliad knows that when Agamemnon gets home, he's for it. His wife's going to kill him, but none of that is in the poem.

Yes, because his fleets are becalmed by Artemis. For reasons, I mean, none of this is in the Iliad and it's explained differently. So in order to get the winds to sail for Troy, he had to sacrifice his daughter, Iphigenia. That sets up, you know, the audience of the Iliad knows that when Agamemnon gets home, he's for it. His wife's going to kill him, but none of that is in the poem.

Yes, it's run by despotic monarchs with full power. But there's problems because there tend to be families with more than one boy. So we've already got inbuilt conflict, what the Greeks called stasis. You know, you've got a quarrelsome royal family running it. And the real problem comes after a while when they invent sea power. This is the crucial thing. Oh, they invent it. Okay, yeah.

Yes, it's run by despotic monarchs with full power. But there's problems because there tend to be families with more than one boy. So we've already got inbuilt conflict, what the Greeks called stasis. You know, you've got a quarrelsome royal family running it. And the real problem comes after a while when they invent sea power. This is the crucial thing. Oh, they invent it. Okay, yeah.

They invent sea power. They invent the very first navy in the world. And there's a big description of it and how these huge, great triremes could go up and down all the channels. And this leads to growing decadence because they start trading with other nations, which makes them more greedy for money. And this is part of what leads to their moral downfall.

They invent sea power. They invent the very first navy in the world. And there's a big description of it and how these huge, great triremes could go up and down all the channels. And this leads to growing decadence because they start trading with other nations, which makes them more greedy for money. And this is part of what leads to their moral downfall.

Yes, they start taking over other places, just as the Athenian democracy had. They take over places from Tuscany to Egypt, and they're expanding. And here, I think that Plato is drawing actually on the Athenians' experience, not only of their own empire, but of the great Persian empire. There's a certain amount of Persia in these Atlanteans.

Yes, they start taking over other places, just as the Athenian democracy had. They take over places from Tuscany to Egypt, and they're expanding. And here, I think that Plato is drawing actually on the Athenians' experience, not only of their own empire, but of the great Persian empire. There's a certain amount of Persia in these Atlanteans.

Also Phoenicians, because the Phoenicians were the great ancient sea power. So we sort of pick and choose from different colourful, what the Greeks called barbarian, that is non-Greek, ancient cultures that were actually older than the Greeks. And the Egypt thing is in there because we actually get the source is Egyptian. So there's plenty of ways of imagining these gaudy, quite barbarous people.

Also Phoenicians, because the Phoenicians were the great ancient sea power. So we sort of pick and choose from different colourful, what the Greeks called barbarian, that is non-Greek, ancient cultures that were actually older than the Greeks. And the Egypt thing is in there because we actually get the source is Egyptian. So there's plenty of ways of imagining these gaudy, quite barbarous people.

At first, their island is just a natural utopia. It's full of beautiful natural blessings like timber and flora and fauna. And it's got food in abundance, which when we come on to the ancient Athens, it didn't have. So they were actually lucky. He's implying they didn't need to build an empire. They had everything that they needed.

At first, their island is just a natural utopia. It's full of beautiful natural blessings like timber and flora and fauna. And it's got food in abundance, which when we come on to the ancient Athens, it didn't have. So they were actually lucky. He's implying they didn't need to build an empire. They had everything that they needed.

I absolutely do. And it's because they invent the sea power and the Greeks acknowledge that the first great sea power was not the Greeks, it was the Phoenicians. And they freely admitted they'd learned an awful lot about shipbuilding and how to run a navy from the Phoenicians.

I absolutely do. And it's because they invent the sea power and the Greeks acknowledge that the first great sea power was not the Greeks, it was the Phoenicians. And they freely admitted they'd learned an awful lot about shipbuilding and how to run a navy from the Phoenicians.

But any one-to-one correspondence fails because ultimately, I think what the Atlanteans are doing is representing what the Athenians became under the democracy. Plato splits his vision of Athens in two, and he puts one half of it in the idealized ancient Athens, primordial Athens of 9,000 years before, and one half of it in the Atlanteans.

But any one-to-one correspondence fails because ultimately, I think what the Atlanteans are doing is representing what the Athenians became under the democracy. Plato splits his vision of Athens in two, and he puts one half of it in the idealized ancient Athens, primordial Athens of 9,000 years before, and one half of it in the Atlanteans.

But by doing that, he's sort of implying that somehow the Athenians had become more like these wicked barbarian nations. So no one-to-one correspondence really works. And I'm actually really the first scholar to have absolutely insisted on this. The most important article ever written was by a French scholar of considerable fame called Pierre Vidal-Nacquet.

But by doing that, he's sort of implying that somehow the Athenians had become more like these wicked barbarian nations. So no one-to-one correspondence really works. And I'm actually really the first scholar to have absolutely insisted on this. The most important article ever written was by a French scholar of considerable fame called Pierre Vidal-Nacquet.

And he's the one who said, this isn't me at all. This is the first work of historical fiction. But you still find, despite people saying, yes, that's the case, they tend to try to say, you know, the Atlanteans are Phoenicians or the Atlanteans are Persians or very often because of the cataclysm. They are the Minoans or Mycenaeans. This has been a very, very popular explanation.

And he's the one who said, this isn't me at all. This is the first work of historical fiction. But you still find, despite people saying, yes, that's the case, they tend to try to say, you know, the Atlanteans are Phoenicians or the Atlanteans are Persians or very often because of the cataclysm. They are the Minoans or Mycenaeans. This has been a very, very popular explanation.

So classical Greeks know that the Bronze Age civilizations of Mycenae and Crete had gone under. They'd been destroyed. The Greeks had entered a dark age. They'd lost writing. Their mode of production had actually regressed rather than progressed. In the case of Crete, it was very much regressed. know that there had been some kind of terrible flood. So there's a bit of that in it as well.

So classical Greeks know that the Bronze Age civilizations of Mycenae and Crete had gone under. They'd been destroyed. The Greeks had entered a dark age. They'd lost writing. Their mode of production had actually regressed rather than progressed. In the case of Crete, it was very much regressed. know that there had been some kind of terrible flood. So there's a bit of that in it as well.

The Atlanteans are a conglomerate of lots of different earlier civilizations. And what I do is insist that no one will work. This is Plato imagining the most glamorous but decadent possible primordial civilization that was destroyed. And he's using every kind of other civilization he can to color that in.

The Atlanteans are a conglomerate of lots of different earlier civilizations. And what I do is insist that no one will work. This is Plato imagining the most glamorous but decadent possible primordial civilization that was destroyed. And he's using every kind of other civilization he can to color that in.

Well, the story is that the Atlanteans' empire grows ever bigger and eventually the proud and noble race of Athenians decides to stand up against them. They're not going to become part of that empire. So there we very much have resonances of the Persian war story. Noble Greeks standing up against vastly larger forces from abroad and the huge navy as well as a huge army.

Well, the story is that the Atlanteans' empire grows ever bigger and eventually the proud and noble race of Athenians decides to stand up against them. They're not going to become part of that empire. So there we very much have resonances of the Persian war story. Noble Greeks standing up against vastly larger forces from abroad and the huge navy as well as a huge army.

And they come into conflict. But in fact, the gods before the Atlanteans can take over the Athenians, decide to destroy the entire civilization and submerge it.

And they come into conflict. But in fact, the gods before the Atlanteans can take over the Athenians, decide to destroy the entire civilization and submerge it.

Because of its own doing. And this is traced to this human strand from the original founding heroine that Poseidon had impregnated. They've got this bit of humanity in them, whereas the Athenians are rather mysteriously assumed to have somehow sprung from the soil, not through an act of sexual intercourse. They're kind of divinely created from the soil of Athens.

Because of its own doing. And this is traced to this human strand from the original founding heroine that Poseidon had impregnated. They've got this bit of humanity in them, whereas the Athenians are rather mysteriously assumed to have somehow sprung from the soil, not through an act of sexual intercourse. They're kind of divinely created from the soil of Athens.

So the origins of these two different races ultimately help to explain why one survives and the other doesn't. One is simply more divine and less morally corrupt.

So the origins of these two different races ultimately help to explain why one survives and the other doesn't. One is simply more divine and less morally corrupt.

Yes, the ruination of Athens as imperial power was a result of the Peloponnesian War. The Peloponnesian War was a very, very long war. It went on from 431 BC to 405-404. And after it, which is when Plato's actually writing... The Athenian Empire, which was run by its navy, never really got to be as important again.

Yes, the ruination of Athens as imperial power was a result of the Peloponnesian War. The Peloponnesian War was a very, very long war. It went on from 431 BC to 405-404. And after it, which is when Plato's actually writing... The Athenian Empire, which was run by its navy, never really got to be as important again.

So what he's doing is sort of blaming the decadence of his city on the supremacy given to the navy. Because most importantly, the navy in Athens was centered in Piraeus, still is. And Aristotle tells us that by far the most radical democrats weren't Piraeus. They were poor, free men who had to earn their living by rowing, both in the military, the naval force, and in the merchant navy.

So what he's doing is sort of blaming the decadence of his city on the supremacy given to the navy. Because most importantly, the navy in Athens was centered in Piraeus, still is. And Aristotle tells us that by far the most radical democrats weren't Piraeus. They were poor, free men who had to earn their living by rowing, both in the military, the naval force, and in the merchant navy.

They had to go around all the islands, rowing around all the islands to collect the tribute and put people down when they rebelled against the Athenian empire. Plato very particularly identifies the naval element in Athenian imperialism as a the cause of its downfall. In the entire Republic, when he's building Calipolis, Calipolis has no navy. It's not to be given a navy. It must not have a navy.

They had to go around all the islands, rowing around all the islands to collect the tribute and put people down when they rebelled against the Athenian empire. Plato very particularly identifies the naval element in Athenian imperialism as a the cause of its downfall. In the entire Republic, when he's building Calipolis, Calipolis has no navy. It's not to be given a navy. It must not have a navy.

There's only one discussion of the navy in the entire Republic, and that is the analogy of the ship of Thor's, which is where the democratic sailors of Daedra mutiny against, you know, the wise captain. That's the only example under another platonic text, which is even later, the laws, where some old sages actually plan a real city, slightly different.

There's only one discussion of the navy in the entire Republic, and that is the analogy of the ship of Thor's, which is where the democratic sailors of Daedra mutiny against, you know, the wise captain. That's the only example under another platonic text, which is even later, the laws, where some old sages actually plan a real city, slightly different.

They draw up the constitution for a proposed new city in Crete. It is to be set more than 25 miles inland to ensure it will never, ever have a navy. So we've actually got, I think, a real anti-navy obsession there.

They draw up the constitution for a proposed new city in Crete. It is to be set more than 25 miles inland to ensure it will never, ever have a navy. So we've actually got, I think, a real anti-navy obsession there.

The other association, the Piraeus, is where the tyrants who took over Athens in 404, some Athenian tyrants at the end of the war, took it over and for a while managed to completely subvert the democracy. They installed a very different political regime. When they were finally killed by the rebellious Democrats, it was in Piraeus. So there's lots and lots of layers of this.

The other association, the Piraeus, is where the tyrants who took over Athens in 404, some Athenian tyrants at the end of the war, took it over and for a while managed to completely subvert the democracy. They installed a very different political regime. When they were finally killed by the rebellious Democrats, it was in Piraeus. So there's lots and lots of layers of this.

He absolutely hated, and here's a word for your audience, thalasocracy. The Greek for sea is thalassa, and a thalasocracy is an empire that asserts its rule through sea power. And Thucydides tells us that the very first thalasocracy was actually Minos' in Crete. That's the society that got wiped out by cataclysm. And the thalasocracy of the Atlanteans gets wiped out

He absolutely hated, and here's a word for your audience, thalasocracy. The Greek for sea is thalassa, and a thalasocracy is an empire that asserts its rule through sea power. And Thucydides tells us that the very first thalasocracy was actually Minos' in Crete. That's the society that got wiped out by cataclysm. And the thalasocracy of the Atlanteans gets wiped out

And Plato is writing at a time when I guess he's very worried that Athens might become a thalassocracy again.

And Plato is writing at a time when I guess he's very worried that Athens might become a thalassocracy again.

Well, he doesn't address that practical problem. How are we going to make Athens a non-thalassocracy? Given the shortage of resources in the land of Attica, which is quite barren, they simply couldn't fit. That's why they invaded Sicily. The greatest disaster that lay behind their eventual loss of the war was the 413 catastrophic attempt to annex Sicily.

Well, he doesn't address that practical problem. How are we going to make Athens a non-thalassocracy? Given the shortage of resources in the land of Attica, which is quite barren, they simply couldn't fit. That's why they invaded Sicily. The greatest disaster that lay behind their eventual loss of the war was the 413 catastrophic attempt to annex Sicily.

which is hard to believe now because it's so hot and dry, but was an incredible bread basket. The Romans knew that. They had these huge latifundia in the central plains of Sicily behind the mountains. You know, these are the bread baskets. That's why they went there. That's why they needed to go to Egypt all the time for various different things to eat.

which is hard to believe now because it's so hot and dry, but was an incredible bread basket. The Romans knew that. They had these huge latifundia in the central plains of Sicily behind the mountains. You know, these are the bread baskets. That's why they went there. That's why they needed to go to Egypt all the time for various different things to eat.

And absolutely, that's why the Black Sea became so important. So Plato doesn't address this, which might be a good moment to move on to his description through Critias of the Aboriginal Athenian society.

And absolutely, that's why the Black Sea became so important. So Plato doesn't address this, which might be a good moment to move on to his description through Critias of the Aboriginal Athenian society.

He actually says that there's been a very great deal of land erosion. Athens used to be much further from the sea, right? The peripheral coastlines have contracted and contracted and contracted. We used to be an agrarian inland country. There is some truth in that, that is environmental degradation, the coasts of Greece, but nothing like what he's saying.

He actually says that there's been a very great deal of land erosion. Athens used to be much further from the sea, right? The peripheral coastlines have contracted and contracted and contracted. We used to be an agrarian inland country. There is some truth in that, that is environmental degradation, the coasts of Greece, but nothing like what he's saying.

And so his original Athens, it's emphatically mountain men who work very hard, unlike the Atlanteans, but in a noble way. It's noble labour and eat a living with their goats and their flocks and their harvests. from they are self-sufficient, they have enough because A, they've got more land, hasn't been eroded, and B, they work very hard.

And so his original Athens, it's emphatically mountain men who work very hard, unlike the Atlanteans, but in a noble way. It's noble labour and eat a living with their goats and their flocks and their harvests. from they are self-sufficient, they have enough because A, they've got more land, hasn't been eroded, and B, they work very hard.

Even more important, most of us know the famous myth of the battle over Athens between Athena and Poseidon. Now, Plato completely rewrites that. He has Attica founded by Athena and Hephaestus. He deletes Poseidon altogether. Poseidon goes off. That's why he goes off and found Atlantis. He's not in the myth. So he says, basically, that we should never have had Poseidon as the other god of Athens.

Even more important, most of us know the famous myth of the battle over Athens between Athena and Poseidon. Now, Plato completely rewrites that. He has Attica founded by Athena and Hephaestus. He deletes Poseidon altogether. Poseidon goes off. That's why he goes off and found Atlantis. He's not in the myth. So he says, basically, that we should never have had Poseidon as the other god of Athens.

Poseidon is the great god of the navy. There's a wonderful passage in Aristophanes' Nights, which is actually a love song of the Athenian navy. That poem, that play is all about a huge number of passages directly designed for the seamen in the audience. And we have this extraordinary hymn almost implying that Poseidon's more important than Athena at Athens as god of sea power. Oh, no.

Poseidon is the great god of the navy. There's a wonderful passage in Aristophanes' Nights, which is actually a love song of the Athenian navy. That poem, that play is all about a huge number of passages directly designed for the seamen in the audience. And we have this extraordinary hymn almost implying that Poseidon's more important than Athena at Athens as god of sea power. Oh, no.

The original Athens has nothing to do with Poseidon whatsoever. It's the craft god Hephaestus because he's clever and he's skillful and he's good at making plows and Athena. So the deletion of Poseidon from the history of Athens really says it all. Music

The original Athens has nothing to do with Poseidon whatsoever. It's the craft god Hephaestus because he's clever and he's skillful and he's good at making plows and Athena. So the deletion of Poseidon from the history of Athens really says it all. Music

I don't know the answer to that. And I'm one of the greatest sceptics about accounts of Plato in visiting Dionysius, the great tyrant of Syracuse. And we don't know how the dates work in terms of his visits.

I don't know the answer to that. And I'm one of the greatest sceptics about accounts of Plato in visiting Dionysius, the great tyrant of Syracuse. And we don't know how the dates work in terms of his visits.

But many scholars do talk about that and say that actually the rather tyrannical and indeed well-equipped with navy power that was Syracuse is yet another ingredient in the portrait of the Atlanteans.

But many scholars do talk about that and say that actually the rather tyrannical and indeed well-equipped with navy power that was Syracuse is yet another ingredient in the portrait of the Atlanteans.

It does start to be referred to by others almost immediately afterwards and captured imagination up to a point of the philosophical schools. But really, it's the Renaissance that seizes on it. It becomes extremely popular as soon as Plato is rediscovered because people like to paint it. We've got an incredible number of visual images 500 years before Disney of how this

It does start to be referred to by others almost immediately afterwards and captured imagination up to a point of the philosophical schools. But really, it's the Renaissance that seizes on it. It becomes extremely popular as soon as Plato is rediscovered because people like to paint it. We've got an incredible number of visual images 500 years before Disney of how this

And of course, it got linked in with Christian stories of Judeo-Christian stories of humans being wiped out by floods because of their wickedness. It resonated with the story of Noah and the flood, the Deucalion and Pyrrha story, the other flood. Sodom and Gomorrah a bit maybe as well. Absolutely.

And of course, it got linked in with Christian stories of Judeo-Christian stories of humans being wiped out by floods because of their wickedness. It resonated with the story of Noah and the flood, the Deucalion and Pyrrha story, the other flood. Sodom and Gomorrah a bit maybe as well. Absolutely.

So apocalyptic punishment for decadence and overextending your empires, that resonates very profoundly, which allowed it to be one of the stories from pagan antiquity that were assimilated very easily to Christian morality. And that sort of continued, I suppose, in terms of its acceptability. And that was further ramified by the excavations at Pompeii. Now, that wasn't flood, that was volcanoes.

So apocalyptic punishment for decadence and overextending your empires, that resonates very profoundly, which allowed it to be one of the stories from pagan antiquity that were assimilated very easily to Christian morality. And that sort of continued, I suppose, in terms of its acceptability. And that was further ramified by the excavations at Pompeii. Now, that wasn't flood, that was volcanoes.

But, you know, Pompeii was first dug up much, much earlier in the Renaissance. A few workmen dug up a few completely obscene images and hastily covered them up. Yes, the secret cabinet, yes. They thought it was devil's work. I mean, they at that time thought that the devil had left these sort of huge fallacies.

But, you know, Pompeii was first dug up much, much earlier in the Renaissance. A few workmen dug up a few completely obscene images and hastily covered them up. Yes, the secret cabinet, yes. They thought it was devil's work. I mean, they at that time thought that the devil had left these sort of huge fallacies.

But when it was properly dug up, which was the 18th century, the idea and then Pliny is read, the account of the volcano and the excavations at Pompeii do indeed show an extraordinarily lively mercantile society, thoroughly hybrid, ethnically mixed. with a lot of pleasure going on, you know, bordellos and theatre, rude graffiti, murals showing really quite extraordinarily rude sexual things.

But when it was properly dug up, which was the 18th century, the idea and then Pliny is read, the account of the volcano and the excavations at Pompeii do indeed show an extraordinarily lively mercantile society, thoroughly hybrid, ethnically mixed. with a lot of pleasure going on, you know, bordellos and theatre, rude graffiti, murals showing really quite extraordinarily rude sexual things.

As you say, the secret museum in Naples, they were kept under lock and key for a very long time, the more obscene images. So Pompeii became yet another example. And of course, today, apocalyptic fiction of one kind or another has never been more popular. I've heard of the term apocalypse porn. There's a whole sub-genre out there.

As you say, the secret museum in Naples, they were kept under lock and key for a very long time, the more obscene images. So Pompeii became yet another example. And of course, today, apocalyptic fiction of one kind or another has never been more popular. I've heard of the term apocalypse porn. There's a whole sub-genre out there.

I've heard of a whole sub, there's a whole sub genres out there often set in the future, you know, after whatever we humans do to the planet, we're going to have flood and fire then endless TV shows with the premise of there are just a few survivors. Atlantis sort of underlies far more stories than those just about Atlantis.

I've heard of a whole sub, there's a whole sub genres out there often set in the future, you know, after whatever we humans do to the planet, we're going to have flood and fire then endless TV shows with the premise of there are just a few survivors. Atlantis sort of underlies far more stories than those just about Atlantis.

Oh, it's right there in the Renaissance when people start reading Plato. People try to find it. And that, of course, is the great age of the first great European colonisation of the Americas and India for the sort of 15th century onwards. So wherever they went, they were trying to find Atlantis. The literalist reading of Plato. I don't think they understood it as fiction at all.

Oh, it's right there in the Renaissance when people start reading Plato. People try to find it. And that, of course, is the great age of the first great European colonisation of the Americas and India for the sort of 15th century onwards. So wherever they went, they were trying to find Atlantis. The literalist reading of Plato. I don't think they understood it as fiction at all.

I think quite the opposite. I think that's a fairly recent academic proposition as we come to understand Plato's politics more. I mean, Atlantis has been discovered, you know, in the Dogger Bank.

I think quite the opposite. I think that's a fairly recent academic proposition as we come to understand Plato's politics more. I mean, Atlantis has been discovered, you know, in the Dogger Bank.

I haven't done this research, but some other people have. It's been found in absolutely everywhere in the world that our ships have sailed. People have said this. And of course, there are all over the Mediterranean. There are submerged cities. Parts of northern Egypt fell off.

I haven't done this research, but some other people have. It's been found in absolutely everywhere in the world that our ships have sailed. People have said this. And of course, there are all over the Mediterranean. There are submerged cities. Parts of northern Egypt fell off.

There was a great British museum exhibition lately of incredible finds of the north coast of Egypt, of bits of land fall off, water levels rise, cities get submerged. So you could actually sometimes find real cities that you can say must have been Atlantis. A lot of people say it's the Canary Islands, that there were other canaries because of their geographical position.

There was a great British museum exhibition lately of incredible finds of the north coast of Egypt, of bits of land fall off, water levels rise, cities get submerged. So you could actually sometimes find real cities that you can say must have been Atlantis. A lot of people say it's the Canary Islands, that there were other canaries because of their geographical position.

I mean, it's quite a game if you're a traveller. Ask anybody, wherever you go in the world. And once people actually got to the Australasian region, Tasmania, I mean, you name it, it's been Atlantis.

I mean, it's quite a game if you're a traveller. Ask anybody, wherever you go in the world. And once people actually got to the Australasian region, Tasmania, I mean, you name it, it's been Atlantis.

Exactly. So I would actually say that what I'm saying is by far the minority view. If you're talking about popular opinion, most people want to believe it and they want to have the mystery, just like they want to find Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster.

Exactly. So I would actually say that what I'm saying is by far the minority view. If you're talking about popular opinion, most people want to believe it and they want to have the mystery, just like they want to find Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster.

Thank you. I've loved it.

Thank you. I've loved it.

Thank you so much. It's a delight for me as well.

Thank you so much. It's a delight for me as well.

Yes, Atlantis is one of the few words from antiquity that is very generally recognised on the street, along with Aesop and Odysseus, and just possibly, if you're lucky, sort of Medea or Troy. It's something that everybody knows about. Anything that's actually been Disney-fied, of course, enters an international, global, popular culture dimension that we would love all of classics to have.

Yes, Atlantis is one of the few words from antiquity that is very generally recognised on the street, along with Aesop and Odysseus, and just possibly, if you're lucky, sort of Medea or Troy. It's something that everybody knows about. Anything that's actually been Disney-fied, of course, enters an international, global, popular culture dimension that we would love all of classics to have.

Probably at the moment only rivaled by gladiators.

Probably at the moment only rivaled by gladiators.

No. The story of Atlantis is incredibly important culturally, not just because people love it so much, but because it's the first ever work of historical fiction. So it's the founding text of a genre that we all love. It is immensely popular internationally.

No. The story of Atlantis is incredibly important culturally, not just because people love it so much, but because it's the first ever work of historical fiction. So it's the founding text of a genre that we all love. It is immensely popular internationally.

that has countless examples just in the classical world of some of the greatest novels about Pompeii, all the novels about Roman emperors, I Claudius. It's the founding text of that entire genre, but it's by a philosopher called Plato. There are strands of truth in it, in that the ancient Greeks and Romans were acquainted with tsunamis.

that has countless examples just in the classical world of some of the greatest novels about Pompeii, all the novels about Roman emperors, I Claudius. It's the founding text of that entire genre, but it's by a philosopher called Plato. There are strands of truth in it, in that the ancient Greeks and Romans were acquainted with tsunamis.

They were acquainted with catastrophic, apocalyptic wipings out of civilizations. So the general kind of backstory that a whole culture can get wiped out by a natural disaster draws on reality. But this specific story is absolutely fiction. And it was fiction designed for a very particular purpose at a very particular time.

They were acquainted with catastrophic, apocalyptic wipings out of civilizations. So the general kind of backstory that a whole culture can get wiped out by a natural disaster draws on reality. But this specific story is absolutely fiction. And it was fiction designed for a very particular purpose at a very particular time.

There's no trace of Atlantis before two dialogues by Plato that fit together, which are the Timaeus and the Critias. These are composed in the first third of the fourth century BC. So nearly two and a half thousand years ago. But they set the story at least 9000 years prior to that. These are guys...

There's no trace of Atlantis before two dialogues by Plato that fit together, which are the Timaeus and the Critias. These are composed in the first third of the fourth century BC. So nearly two and a half thousand years ago. But they set the story at least 9000 years prior to that. These are guys...

Two and a half thousand years ago, imagining what happened actually for us 11 and a half thousand years ago.

Two and a half thousand years ago, imagining what happened actually for us 11 and a half thousand years ago.

Athens is not just a philosophical hub, it's actually coming into its own as the philosophical hub. In the fifth century, Socrates, who was Plato's teacher, was more of a sort of freelance guy. He didn't have a particular university or institution. He would go around harassing people with his philosophical dialogues and interviews in public spaces like Market Square and the gymnasium.

Athens is not just a philosophical hub, it's actually coming into its own as the philosophical hub. In the fifth century, Socrates, who was Plato's teacher, was more of a sort of freelance guy. He didn't have a particular university or institution. He would go around harassing people with his philosophical dialogues and interviews in public spaces like Market Square and the gymnasium.

His student Plato founded the first, what, we would recognise as a university. Although it did no science, it was only humanities and maths for the academy at some point in the very early 4th century BC. So this is a community of like-minded people, people who were rich enough and intellectually enough to want to spend their time discussing philosophical ideas.

His student Plato founded the first, what, we would recognise as a university. Although it did no science, it was only humanities and maths for the academy at some point in the very early 4th century BC. So this is a community of like-minded people, people who were rich enough and intellectually enough to want to spend their time discussing philosophical ideas.

And these dialogues almost certainly result from actual lecture courses that he gave, or at least seminars, discussions in the academy, and the philosophical history, the history of ancient philosophies really kicks off at the academy. It's actually eclipsed, in my view, by the Lyceum of Aristotle.

And these dialogues almost certainly result from actual lecture courses that he gave, or at least seminars, discussions in the academy, and the philosophical history, the history of ancient philosophies really kicks off at the academy. It's actually eclipsed, in my view, by the Lyceum of Aristotle.

Aristotle is one of Plato's students, and he finds the Lyceum, and that's bigger and better for several reasons, one of which is that it did science material science, physics, biology, zoology, cosmology, as well as philosophy, the humanities subjects.

Aristotle is one of Plato's students, and he finds the Lyceum, and that's bigger and better for several reasons, one of which is that it did science material science, physics, biology, zoology, cosmology, as well as philosophy, the humanities subjects.

So we're just at the dawn, actually, of the ancient schools of philosophy, which were to go on for another 900 years until the schools were closed down by the Christian emperors.

So we're just at the dawn, actually, of the ancient schools of philosophy, which were to go on for another 900 years until the schools were closed down by the Christian emperors.

These two dialogues form a pair, but they're also direct sequels to Plato's greatest work, The Republic. Now, The Republic is a dialogue set in the very late 5th century, and it discusses, basically, from a theoretical point of view, what would the ideal constitution of a city look like if you're a Platonic philosopher? What would it look like?

These two dialogues form a pair, but they're also direct sequels to Plato's greatest work, The Republic. Now, The Republic is a dialogue set in the very late 5th century, and it discusses, basically, from a theoretical point of view, what would the ideal constitution of a city look like if you're a Platonic philosopher? What would it look like?

It's idealistic, it's a conjectural, it's hypothetical. The next day, we're told, some of the guys who were present at that dialogue and some who weren't met up for another day of festival, because this all takes place during a great Athenian festival, and decided what they needed to do on the suggestion of Socrates is think harder about this place.

It's idealistic, it's a conjectural, it's hypothetical. The next day, we're told, some of the guys who were present at that dialogue and some who weren't met up for another day of festival, because this all takes place during a great Athenian festival, and decided what they needed to do on the suggestion of Socrates is think harder about this place.

This is called Kallipolis, which means the beautiful city, which so far in the discussion in the Republic has only existed as a hypothesis. We're going to try and see whether we can give a real concrete example of it.

This is called Kallipolis, which means the beautiful city, which so far in the discussion in the Republic has only existed as a hypothesis. We're going to try and see whether we can give a real concrete example of it.

And it turns out that Critias, who's one of the guys at this general symposium, knows a story of a real Kallipolis that existed all these thousand years ago, 98,000 years ago before that. And he says, well, actually, we don't need to be hypothetical anymore because I was told a story about a real place that existed.

And it turns out that Critias, who's one of the guys at this general symposium, knows a story of a real Kallipolis that existed all these thousand years ago, 98,000 years ago before that. And he says, well, actually, we don't need to be hypothetical anymore because I was told a story about a real place that existed.

And that was actually Athens of 9000 years ago before it got corrupted the way it is now. So we don't need a virtual city. We've got an example of a real Kallipolis. And it was our own city before it went bad. And because it's Plato, bad means democratic, run by unruly sailors, right?

And that was actually Athens of 9000 years ago before it got corrupted the way it is now. So we don't need a virtual city. We've got an example of a real Kallipolis. And it was our own city before it went bad. And because it's Plato, bad means democratic, run by unruly sailors, right?

Lots of blending of classes, lots of rowdy behaviour, lots of exciting theatrical culture, lots of law court litigation, all the things that made actually democratic Athens, in my view, the great place it was. Socrates has said he wants to outlaw, he wants a much more conservative, agrarian, very rigid class structure society in his hypothetical one in the Republic.

Lots of blending of classes, lots of rowdy behaviour, lots of exciting theatrical culture, lots of law court litigation, all the things that made actually democratic Athens, in my view, the great place it was. Socrates has said he wants to outlaw, he wants a much more conservative, agrarian, very rigid class structure society in his hypothetical one in the Republic.

And lo and behold, Critias comes up with an account of such things. a conservative, class-bound, rigid, agrarian, non-democratic, he thinks, ideal city-state, which was what Athens was. So in a way, you've got a strange hypothetical future meeting an actual, allegedly, materially historical past. So that's the conceit.

And lo and behold, Critias comes up with an account of such things. a conservative, class-bound, rigid, agrarian, non-democratic, he thinks, ideal city-state, which was what Athens was. So in a way, you've got a strange hypothetical future meeting an actual, allegedly, materially historical past. So that's the conceit.

But what Plato does very cleverly is actually cast, while he's letting Critiasse Most of it's in the Critias. Timaeus kicks it off, but the full detailed account that comes down in all our novels, all our fictions, all our movies of Callipolis and its rival, Atlantis, which is not Athenian. It's the complete opposite of Athens. It's a sea-going place which gets destroyed because it's sinful.

But what Plato does very cleverly is actually cast, while he's letting Critiasse Most of it's in the Critias. Timaeus kicks it off, but the full detailed account that comes down in all our novels, all our fictions, all our movies of Callipolis and its rival, Atlantis, which is not Athenian. It's the complete opposite of Athens. It's a sea-going place which gets destroyed because it's sinful.

We've got these two historical rivals in a long-ago war supposedly in a very traditional old narrative that Critias has got access to. But we can go on to talk about just how Plato complicates that because he does cleverly point out how unreliable memories are going to be over 9,000 years.

We've got these two historical rivals in a long-ago war supposedly in a very traditional old narrative that Critias has got access to. But we can go on to talk about just how Plato complicates that because he does cleverly point out how unreliable memories are going to be over 9,000 years.

Critias says that he had heard it from his grandfather, also named Critias, so that would be a man born in the much earlier 5th century. And this grandfather had heard it from his father, and his grandfather was 90 when he told it to the grandson. And he then says... Critias describes how he encountered the narrative.

Critias says that he had heard it from his grandfather, also named Critias, so that would be a man born in the much earlier 5th century. And this grandfather had heard it from his father, and his grandfather was 90 when he told it to the grandson. And he then says... Critias describes how he encountered the narrative.

So he says a speech was once made by Solon, who's many generations ago ruler of Athens. Solon's relative, Dropedes. And Dropedes was Critias' great-grandfather. So the grandfather then told it to Critias, who's now telling it to Socrates. Ha! So we've got it back to Solon via four or five hands in this family. All right. Critias is already six in the train.

So he says a speech was once made by Solon, who's many generations ago ruler of Athens. Solon's relative, Dropedes. And Dropedes was Critias' great-grandfather. So the grandfather then told it to Critias, who's now telling it to Socrates. Ha! So we've got it back to Solon via four or five hands in this family. All right. Critias is already six in the train.

But the trouble is that Solon said he'd got it off a priest in Egypt. OK, so we're now hearing it from Plato. So we are actually ninth in the chain from the original source, which is an Egyptian priest, at least 200 years before the date of the dialogue where it's said. So why does Plato bother to complicate all that?

But the trouble is that Solon said he'd got it off a priest in Egypt. OK, so we're now hearing it from Plato. So we are actually ninth in the chain from the original source, which is an Egyptian priest, at least 200 years before the date of the dialogue where it's said. So why does Plato bother to complicate all that?

I think he's actually shouting to us, people tell stories that are completely unreliable and elaborated over many generations, while also wanting us to enjoy it. So it's a very peculiar way of setting up what's purportedly truth.

I think he's actually shouting to us, people tell stories that are completely unreliable and elaborated over many generations, while also wanting us to enjoy it. So it's a very peculiar way of setting up what's purportedly truth.

The fact that I even have trouble remembering the detail in Plato's dialogue of these many hands is an example of how memory doesn't work when you're reporting it. This is always, Plato is such a clever writer. He's shouting at us all, this is an unreliable, orally transmitted account, but I'm still going to let you have it anyway.

The fact that I even have trouble remembering the detail in Plato's dialogue of these many hands is an example of how memory doesn't work when you're reporting it. This is always, Plato is such a clever writer. He's shouting at us all, this is an unreliable, orally transmitted account, but I'm still going to let you have it anyway.

So I think if we read these texts properly, Plato's admitting that it's as good as fiction.

So I think if we read these texts properly, Plato's admitting that it's as good as fiction.

Oh, yes, it's beautiful. Listen, and it creates it very visually in your mind. Atlantis is founded basically by the god Poseidon. And Poseidon goes to these islands and these islands lie beyond the pillars of Hercules. So somewhere in the Eastern Atlantic, but these islands stretch from Egypt and sort of Spain and France. Okay. So these islands in the Eastern Atlantic, it's called Atlantis.

Oh, yes, it's beautiful. Listen, and it creates it very visually in your mind. Atlantis is founded basically by the god Poseidon. And Poseidon goes to these islands and these islands lie beyond the pillars of Hercules. So somewhere in the Eastern Atlantic, but these islands stretch from Egypt and sort of Spain and France. Okay. So these islands in the Eastern Atlantic, it's called Atlantis.

And Poseidon goes in and decides to actually set up people that, you know, it's not a proper community. It's not a proper civilization. And he goes in And he actually changes the whole geological constitution by creating this central island. And that is then surrounded by concentric marine canals. So if you can imagine a sort of circular island...

And Poseidon goes in and decides to actually set up people that, you know, it's not a proper community. It's not a proper civilization. And he goes in And he actually changes the whole geological constitution by creating this central island. And that is then surrounded by concentric marine canals. So if you can imagine a sort of circular island...

and then several alternating canals, which are just concentric rings and more blocks of land. And he creates all these places and puts bridges over them. And the reason why he wanted it like that was that he'd fallen in love with a human woman. This is very important because the Athenians are not descended from an actual sex act with a human.

and then several alternating canals, which are just concentric rings and more blocks of land. And he creates all these places and puts bridges over them. And the reason why he wanted it like that was that he'd fallen in love with a human woman. This is very important because the Athenians are not descended from an actual sex act with a human.

There's a half-human element in the Atlanteans, which actually, when we go on to the ideal Athenians, doesn't quite share anything.

There's a half-human element in the Atlanteans, which actually, when we go on to the ideal Athenians, doesn't quite share anything.

But Plato gives us, and I can only really recommend reading it, the most extraordinarily beautiful, and this is why people love it and why cartoon artists love it, detailed description of all these, especially the city centre island, which has temples carved with the most beautiful coloured murals, with incredible layers of incrustation of jewels and sanctuaries and statues.

But Plato gives us, and I can only really recommend reading it, the most extraordinarily beautiful, and this is why people love it and why cartoon artists love it, detailed description of all these, especially the city centre island, which has temples carved with the most beautiful coloured murals, with incredible layers of incrustation of jewels and sanctuaries and statues.

I mean, it's meant to be slightly over-opulent. That's going to be part of the point that these people were gaudy and too interested in material consumption and they were flashy and they were a bit vulgar and they liked spectacle. All the things that actually Plato accuses his contemporary Athenians of, just loving spectacle. But it's a beautiful, beautiful read.

I mean, it's meant to be slightly over-opulent. That's going to be part of the point that these people were gaudy and too interested in material consumption and they were flashy and they were a bit vulgar and they liked spectacle. All the things that actually Plato accuses his contemporary Athenians of, just loving spectacle. But it's a beautiful, beautiful read.

And that's really, I think, that and the actual cataclysm.

And that's really, I think, that and the actual cataclysm.

Well, he does. And the scenes of his, when he goes berserk, literally berserk, he's a berserker on the battlefield and loses it in the bloodlust, are very, very exciting. But those are actually delayed all the way through until we get to the last four, five books. He's kept in his tent, nursing his grievance for almost all of the poem. And in fact, we're on his side.

One of the reasons this poem is so good is it throws us straight into a crisis. in the Achaean camp, they're called Achaeans, not Greeks, in the Achaean camp, because there's all dying of plague because their ridiculous king, Agamemnon, has decided it's okay to kidnap the daughter of the local priest of Apollo because he fancies her. And Apollo's not having this. So he's killing them all off.

And there's a crisis, what we're going to do. And there's a meeting. And Achilles has been terribly insulted by Agamemnon. Agamemnon agrees grudgingly to give this young woman back to her father, Chrysaia. But he says, hmm, what's the next prettiest girl in camp? Oh, I know. It's the one that Achilles has got, Briseis. I'll have her, right? I'm kingier than you. There's actually this adjective.

We have a word for being kingy. And there's a superlative, basileutatos. I am the kingiest here.

I'm the kingiest. Well, it's an adjective. I'm the most kingly. I'm the kingiest. I'm going to have Briseis. Achilles, quite understandably, says, you what? And what you have is a row which sets up this really political theme because Agamemnon is by heredity the most powerful king, only because he's the son of the son of the son. By far the best warrior is Achilles.

He is by far the best warrior on the Achaean side, and he's the best warrior in the poem, and he's the best warrior in the world. And he has gone around and got lots and lots and lots of gold and booty from all the little towns they've already conquered in northwest Turkey, as it is now. How do you treat your best lieutenant who has helped you to wage war incredibly successfully and lucratively?

You insult him. You take his girlfriend. So Achilles lays it all out. He says, you may be kingier than me, but I'm much more soldiery than you. But it's absolutely thrilling because we're still having debates about whether we should abolish the House of Lords' hereditary peers.

These are still issues, whether you should be able to rise on merit or whether it's all a matter of what sort of class and family you're born into. So it's burningly political. And we're all on Achilles' side. So Homer, let's just call all these poets for shorthand Homer, makes sure that although he behaves appallingly, we really get why he's so angry with his boss.

We've all had, everybody has had a boss at some point who is less able than they are. And it is incredibly aggravating having to take orders from them and being exploited and mistreated by them. We've all been in that situation. Or we felt like that about a parent being arbitrary, right? There is no human in the world who has not been in Achilles' psychological situation.

So that is the genius of it, that even though his behaviour becomes utterly reprehensible, we're on his side for most of the poem.

Absolutely. And I'm absolutely willing him to stay in his tent and not help the overlord. The Achaean camp is a pretty dire, violent, aggressive, shouty place. You know, there's lots of rows, lots of aggression. The one scene of real peace in the Achaean camp is Achilles' beautiful tent. He's got these soldiers who would give their lives for him, the Myrmidons.

He has absolute loyalty from his men because unlike Agamemnon, he will always lead from the front. He'll take every risk they do. He'll do anything for them. And the Myrmidons, he withdraws from the war as well. So they spend their time. Achilles plays the lyre. He becomes a poet who sings songs. Patroclus, his boyfriend, has got pet dogs.

And they retire to their tent and actually have this rather idyllic thing. It's ambiguous about homoeroticism. They are madly in love with each other, Achilles and Patroclus, but actually they both sleep with women in this tent.

So they're having this idyllic time, sort of sex and music and all the rest of it, while all the other Achilles are not doing very well on the battlefield because they haven't got Achilles.

Well, he's crucial. And again, the artistry of Homer, Patroclus most unusually has the attribute of gentleness. And we're told everybody loved him because he was so gentle. This is paradoxical in an Iliadic warrior. But for example, Briseis... Loves him. She's Asiatic. She loves this friend, which she's given back to Achilles.

And we learn that she says she really loved him because he was kind to her. He was actually kind to a captive slave girl. And because he said he would help her to get Achilles to marry her, which would move her up from being bride of the spear, as they used to call it in 19th century translations, basically a rape victim, war rape victim. If she actually got married, she should secure her future.

So you've got this person who's given real moral attributes, which are most rare in this poem, that he's even kind to slave women. And he is a little older than Achilles. He's a sort of an adoptive brother. He was brought up. He'd fled to Achilles' household because he'd accidentally killed someone. Well, not quite accidentally, actually, but he'd made a big mistake as a young man.

He'd fled, was brought up alongside Achilles. So they're brought up as brothers, but because they're not actually brothers by blood, a very, very intense relationship. forms between them. In other ancient Greek sources, it's unashamedly homoerotic. Homer doesn't have homoerotic relationships in the Iliad.

It's just not the cognitive contract with the audience, but certainly the most intense emotional bond in the poem is between Achilles and Patroclus. And very interestingly, a psychoanalyst called Jonathan Shea wrote a very famous book called Achilles in Vietnam in the 1990s. He worked with a lot of veterans.

And that sort of intense bond happened in Vietnam between squaddies, American Marines and so on who were out there, especially where there was an unpopular commander.

Yes, because Patroclus, when the Achaeans are really not doing well at all, persuades Achilles that Achilles isn't going to fight. But he says, just let me go and fight. Wear your armor. You don't have to, but I'm going to go in. And Achilles doesn't want to let him, but he does go in. And of course, he gets killed. And it's the death of Patroclus that makes Achilles angry.

not relinquish his rage with Agamemnon, but his rage with Hector overshadows that. So he no longer thinks the Agamemnon insult that pales into its significance besides his bereavement. That's the moment when he says he's got to go back to fight, but he hasn't got any arms.

So his mother has to go to Hephaestus for the new arms for Achilles, and he goes back into battle, very hastily makes up with Agamemnon. It doesn't really matter to him anymore. And the rage against Hector is, of course, expressed in the most violent terms.

Achilles actually sacrifices human captives from Troy, some youths, 12 youths from Troy, kills them over the pyre of Patroclus, such is his rage. And there is no human sacrifice in the Iliad, and it's one of the very few times where the authorial voice said, he did a bad thing.

Absolutely. Indeed, when he finally goes into battle, there's a special word for it. It's a certain kind of scene in Iliad, and other characters get them, called an aristia, which means showing off your excellence at fighting. Right. So Diomedes gets one. He's another very good Achaean warrior in book five, where you kill serially, you know, like 10 goals one after another in a football match.

You kill the enemy in a fit of bloodlust that could go on for several hours. And I think the ancient audiences, I use the goal analogy mindfully because I think it was very exciting to listen to them. that yes, another Trojan bites the dust and yes, another one. And they're all killed in slightly different ways.

So the spear goes through their belly or the spear goes through their larynx or the spear goes through their eye or lots of stuff. And I suspect that the ancient audiences were cheering with every one. Achilles kills so many that the river Scamander, which is the great river that comes down from Mount Ida to the sea and provides water for Troy, gets all blocked up with corpses.

They all jump in the river to try to escape. He kills them in the river. The river is completely dammed with corpses. So at that point, the river assumes anthropomorphic form. That means he takes on the form of a human. and is so angry with Achilles for polluting his lovely waters. And also Achilles pulls all the trees down that line the riverbank. He destroys the beauty of the whole riverscape.

So Scamander fights Achilles Achilles in the most terrifying way, because he's bigger and he's a god, and he would have defeated Achilles. He, in fact, even calls on another river, one of his tributaries, to come and help him. But Hera, at that point, sends in fire, who fights the river instead. But already, the river has flooded the entire Trojan plain. So it's like a dam bursting.

I was writing about this in my latest book, this particular scene, when there was that terrible, terrible, terrible, I think it was 2023, the dams burst in Libya, I don't know if you remember, and killed tens of thousands of people. And it was caused by human technological failure. This was not an earthquake. This was a human dam. that burst, right?

And that's what it's like with the river Sigmund. A human pollutes his waters. Human blocks it up. This is Achilles. And the river retaliates and causes far, far more destruction. So I see this as an environmental parable.

The Iliad is one of the oldest Greek epics. It is probably the oldest, depending on how old Hesiod's are. It's older than the Odyssey slightly. It was probably put together in the form we've got it in the middle of the 8th century BCE. but it had been in development since at least the 14th century. It is over 16,000 lines long, and they're long lines.

Oh, gosh, yes. And he's a worthy opponent for Achilles.

He's more heroic for many reasons. One is that he's 100% mortal. Achilles has got this advantage that he's bionic. He's half divine. His mother is Thetis. He's got supernatural powers on the battlefield. The only reason he'll ever die is because of his ankle. And of course, that's not in this poem. But he could have been fully immortal. He's very nearly fully immortal.

Hector is 100% ordinary guy. He's the Prince of Troy. He loves his dad very much, Priam. His dad, Priam, is too old to run military ops. So while Priam is still administrative king, Hector is his commander-in-chief and shares the monarchical duties. He's a lovely husband. This is one of the really big contrasts that were

Achilles and Agamemnon are raping all these slave girls by compulsion and coercion. Hector's got this wife who adores him. He's not adulterous. He's got a baby son who adores him. All his people adore him. He's nice to his mother. He's even nice to Helen. And he is fighting a defensive war.

And how many of us these days, most of us do not glorify aggressive militarism, but can absolutely identify with somebody who's risking his life to defend his people, his wife and his baby. This is the acceptable face of violence for most of us is defensive. So he's got all these moral cards stacked in his favor. And he is impetuous.

That is his main failing, that he doesn't deliberate properly before engaging in military strategies. But he also, there's a crucial moment before the final showdown where he could go back into Troy. He could. He's been fighting for days. He could go back in and he stands on the battlefield and says, it's a very metaphysical moment.

Shall I go back in and feel shame before the women of Troy with their trailing robes that I'm not out there fighting for them? Shall I go inside and survive, be safe, but feel shame? Or shall I just die and do a big thing? And this big thing is the actual translation of the Greek, megaterexon. Having done a big thing, and I will at least get immortal fame, go down nobly.

And that's what he decides to do. And of course, the gods help Achilles. Hector doesn't have a chance. But I cry in book 22 when Hector dies.

It's extraordinary. It's book six. He's on the wall. She meets him on the wall with the baby and begs him not to go. And then she tries to give him military advice about sticking near the wall where it's safer and this, that, and the next thing. And he will not. He will not heed her. And in fact, of course, Troy would fall anyway. I mean, he's right in a way, but it is absolutely heartbreaking.

And even more heartbreaking is when she gets the news in Book 22 when he is killed. She's actually inside weaving and she hears the noise and runs out, tears off her veil and faints and collapses. And then we next see her in the final book leading the women of Troy's lament over her lovely husband. So

It's very carefully done, and this is why it's so much better than most movies of, as I talk about Clint Eastwood's and stuff. Usually in Clint Eastwood movies, you don't have, with the final shootout, you've got proper bad guys being done in, right? They're very simple morally. The Iliad is anything but bad.

Although these Achaeans are ancestors of the Greek audiences, they're not as nice as the Trojans, and that is really cleverly done. It makes it very morally balanced. Hector's father comes into his own in the last book because Achilles has been abusing the corpse of Hector famously, dragging it, tying him by the ankles to the back of his chariot and driving it round and round Troy.

He stopped doing that because the gods intervened. But Priam has to go very bravely, an old man, into the enemy camp and asks Achilles to hand over the body. And do you know what he does? They have this incredible redemptive moment where they look admiringly at each other. They both lost so much. Achilles has lost Patroclus, Priam has lost Hector, and these two warring kings just get each other.

They're a particular metre called the dactylic hexameter, which has six beats and is quite a long line. It's much longer than, say, the iambic pentameter we're used to in Shakespeare. It tells the story of a 40-day period towards the end of the 10-year Trojan War.

You want to say, why didn't you have that conversation 24 books ago?

Yeah, of the actually ordinary human who has sacrificed everything to try and save the people we've come to be very fond of in the course of the poem.

And his wife, and Hecuba.

Well, we've got goddesses a lot. Thetis is Achilles' mother who will do anything for him and is a very emotionally sophisticated figure who intervenes with Zeus for him, intervenes with Hephaestus. We've got Hera and Athena and Artemis. We have the goddesses. But the gods are really amoral and childish compared with the humans. That's both men and women. But the women are fascinating.

So the big women are Chryseis and Briseis. But they don't get very much to say. Briseis has this one wonderful speech, lament for Patroclus when she says how not kind he was to her. We have Andromache, who is very proud and very tender, an admirable wife and mother, exactly the sort of person whose civilization shouldn't be destroyed. We have Hecuba, equally madly loves Hector, Zaha's son.

And of course, we have Helen. Helen appears in book three and regrets bitterly. She tells us how much she regrets what she's done. She, I think, fancies Hector rather than Paris. She has a bit of a flirt with Hector in book six, and he doesn't blame her. He's kind even to Helen. He sees this is a man's game and that she's just a pawn in man's game. She also sings a lament for Hector.

There's four women who sing laments in Book 24, and that is Andromache, Hecuba, Helen, and Cassandra. We meet Cassandra in Book 24. Of course, by having Cassandra in, we know that somebody there knows everything that's going to happen. It's very clever. But I mean, so we've got in the final book, we have Hector's mother, wife, sister and sister-in-law, right?

So it's the full compliment and they all love him.

The main way that they're there is to show how much greater humans are as moral agents, precisely because the gods can't die. They're deprived of any real tragic dimension. All these humans are facing mortality and the real cost of having to act. The gods are basically unaccountable and can be irresponsible. They can get injured. There's some fighting between them.

The worst one of all, and I'm quite fond of him because he's so awful, is Ares. because all the other gods are on one side or another for historic reasons. There are reasons why, to do with their alliances, to do with the judgment of Paris, to do with who of them have got children on the battlefield or grandchildren, except for Zeus, who's kind of up there and a bit kind of weirdly disengaged.

He's just got to make sure fate takes its course. But he's sad because he says the Trojans were the most pious people who always sacrificed a lot to him. But Ares is wonderful because he can't remember what side he's on. He's not on any side. So Athena is the goddess of tactical warfare and planned warfare. He's the god of just mindless thuggery.

So in book five, he's on the battlefield and he starts just jumping around, killing anybody.

There's even a word that says that. He's alloprosolos, which means he jumps to one side and then to the other side. And Athena says, what is the problem with you? You know, fighting's okay if you've got a motive or a reason that you can explain, but this is just violence for the sake of it. And, you know, I've seen scenes like that in Glaswegian pubs.

It's quite remarkable, just the cultural longevity. I mean, one of the reasons for that, though, was that once it was actually written down, this is what happened in the middle of the 8th century, it became the absolutely standard fare of ancient education for then more than 1,000 years.

And river gods. And river gods. Yeah. No, it's a whole panoply and they've got different status. And there are arguments about status. So the last guy that Achilles kills before he fights the river is called Asteripheus. And he's come very recently to Troy. And he's the son of a Thracian river.

So we have this god-off where it's like, is somebody who's the son of a big river more important than someone who's the son of a sea goddess? It's like the status game. It's a parody, in a way, of status in human life. Like, am I kingier than you? That extends into how much divine blood... Am I goddier than you?

Am I goddier than you? Yeah. It's absolutely wonderful. But the gods' counterpoint is crucial because at the end of the day, you always have this amazing formula like, they just went back to feast and inextinguishable laughter arose amongst the gods. I mean, they're up there just laughing while humans are fighting, dying, and losing their nearest and dearest.

Oh, definitely, without a doubt. In terms of the general pattern, we know this. Linear B is a script that was used by people of the era of Agamemnon and Achilles, right? The Greeks subsequently lost that script and lost it for several hundred years until the writing that came in from the Venetians with which they wrote down the poems in the 8th century.

But we know from remains of that script from places in the Peloponnese and Crete that there were raiding parties going out from Greece to get women and booty and stuff from the Eastern Aegean and what's now Anatolia, the west coast of Turkey. This is historically attested fact. That is more historically attested than the actual site of Troy.

We are not sure whether people have identified there is a Bronze Age palace of the right kind of date. at a place called Hisarlik, which since the mid-19th century, everybody's said is probably Troy. And I think it probably is. But whether actually a man called Agamemnon went and led any of these parties is irrelevant.

So we know, for example, that young Athenian aristocratic boys were expected to know it off by heart, the whole thing off by heart. I mean, it's just incredible history. but they were expected to know top by heart if they had a good education. And that remained so throughout the Roman Empire all the way through

There was a thalassocracy, that means a sea power in the Bronze Age of these Mycenaean Greeks who wrote in Linear B and they were engaged in trading and aggressive activities for trading raiding, I think. in precisely those areas, especially around the Hellespont, which was always a strategic hotspot.

It's very apocalyptic in its imagination. Strangely, a lot of this happens in similes, but you have countless similes that the soldiers descended on the other side like a wildfire sweeping over a mountain, or they rise up like a wave that crashes and destroys everything in its path. earthquake sort of stuff. One mention is of terrible hunger, famine. There's only one, and that's in the last book.

But I think that there are poetically encoded memories of the collapse of the Bronze Age civilizations with their tsunamis and fires and famines and displacements. I think that we're talking a post-apocalyptic poem. The Greeks of the 8th century could see around them ruins of these great Mycenaean palaces.

They've probably even seen bits of Linear B. We know from tomb findings that they discovered relics of the bronze armor because they're now living in the Iron Age, but they've discovered these bronze relics and so on. So they're construing, as we might, what it was like to be in the age of King Arthur from a handful of medieval artifacts and scraps of poetry, that kind of thing.

So I think the apocalyptic tone is partly memory. But I've argued in this new book, which I'm going to plug, called Epic of the Earth, reading Homer's Iliad and the fight for a dying world. I also think they betray at some level that they knew that they were chopping down too many trees. And they certainly were.

The deforestation of the periphery of the Mediterranean began in the Bronze Age for three reasons. One was you actually just needed a lot of wood to build all those thousand ships. and all the watch fires and all the palisades. The second was that they cleared land at a disastrous rate for pasturage, all those cattle.

This meant it survived in numerous manuscripts in Byzantium when it was lost to the West for about a thousand years, between about 400 CE and pretty much when the Turks invaded Constantinople in the middle of the 15th century. But thank heavens, enough manuscripts before that happened and they destroyed half the libraries.

We're facing that now with how much land you need for cattle compared with growing lentils or whatever. And the third reason, and perhaps the most important one, was smelting. The amount of wood you need to make even one piece of bronze armor in terms of the furnaces and the fires is unbelievable.

So the Iliad is the expression of an age when the Greeks were pushing ever further afield, cutting down ever more forests. Whenever they ran out, they would just move further east, further south, further north, cut down more forests. to feed this, and they believed they were infinite, but they had no knowledge that there were limits to Earth.

Doesn't excuse it, but I think that the Iliad at a subconscious level is letting us know they knew this was a problem.

Yes, I think so. I think you have to read it a bit against the grain and you have to, as I say, go for what literary critics call its political unconscious. But it's absolutely there, the amount of the trees of Ida that must have been cut down to keep that war going.

And it's got this incredibly precious fir tree. There's only a few left. It only grows in that area of the world. And it's called the subspecies. Abies is the fir or pine. But it's called the subspecies Trojan horse by botanists because they assume it was. And the fight for the survival of that forest, which is now only at the very top of the mountain, is on now. So we're still living.

the aftermath of the rapacious attitude to natural resources that is expressed in this hyper-consumption that's described with glory in the Iliad.

Well, I think it can actually help us because we will see that these problems have been going on for 3,000 years and more. I think the Anthropocene started with the invention of bronze, of metallurgy. Before metallurgy, you couldn't really do colonial warfare. You can't do siege warfare by blowing darts out of fennel sticks, throwing ceramics. You can't do it. You had to have metal.

Metal required all that unbelievable amount of wood. It also required obscene working conditions for slaves, including children, in mines. It's kind of the turning point. I think the Iliad is the poem of the moment our decline started.

So although it's glorious and wonderful and I want everybody to read it, I think we can read it in a new tragic way that might inspire us to go out and fight for our planet. I want us to use the warfare in the Iliad to fight for our planet.

enough manuscripts had been got out to Italy to mean that they rolled off the printing presses pretty early on in the history of printing. So by around 1550, there were hundreds of printed copies and people were very energetically beginning to translate it, not just into Latin, because then the lingua franca was Latin, but quite early into modern languages.

And that's why I've written this book and I've dedicated it to my children and all the rest of Generation Z with apologies for the state of the planet, because I am ashamed that I'm 65 years old and I'm handing on

you know i haven't done more i i really am edith well it's a wonderful book and it's a very very noble cause last but certainly not least the book is called epic of the earth reading homers iliad in the fight for a dying world it's going to be published next month by yale university press and it's a trade book so it is not all that expensive fantastic well edith thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast today thank you very much

And as soon as that happened, everybody started doing operas and paintings and plays and parodies. And it became once again an absolute staple language. of certainly upper-class education. That's why it's as big as it is. Actually, until quite recently, it wasn't as big as the Odyssey. If you actually think quantitatively, in terms of world culture, there were far more versions of the Odyssey.

The Odyssey was exported all over the planet by the Jesuits and things like that. The Iliad did not make so much of an impact, but it just had a quite astonishing revival in the 21st century and I think is now absolutely as familiar as the Odyssey for the first time since antiquity.

Yes, it's an entire encyclopedia of their civilization and values. I think they were written down because of Greek colonization. So not many people really did know them completely off by heart. If you were going off to found, as they were in the Archaic Age, the 8th, 7th, 6th century, to found colonies on the far northern coast of the Black Sea or in Marseilles or in Egypt or

you know, all over the Mediterranean Black Sea periphery, then you needed to take your canonical poems with you. I think that that was the spur for them getting written down. So you could take your huge papyrus rolls of the Iliad, the Odyssey, and Hesiod, because they told you everything that you really needed to know. They told you how to do a sacrifice. They told you how to fight the enemy.

They told you how to arm yourself. They told you how to be a heroic male who was going around intrepidly bonking enemies on foreign shores on the head. They were the cultural encyclopedia. And at Athens, we know that every year at the Panathenae, it's the big all Athenian festival in the summer from the 6th century. They were recited all the way through.

The Iliad was recited all the way through by teams of bards every summer. It actually takes about three days to do that.

You take with you this cultural heritage and the Iliad, of course, because it's about a united effort by Greeks, even though the word Greek doesn't occur in it yet. It numerates all these mainland Greek cities and some of the islands that sent forces to Troy. So for an awful lot of Greeks, wherever they went in the world, they could trace their ancestry.

They believed their own ancestors had been on the Greek side. at Troy. It's an extraordinarily long genealogy that you're taking with you wherever you went.

I don't. In my head, the pattern is that the story got gradually elaborated. It's in 24 books now, but it's got slightly more than that identifiable individual stories that rather than being three days recitation, you could sing of a particular battle during the war, or you could sing the funeral of Patroclus, or you could sing the row between Achilles and Agamemnon, or you could sing

the moment that Achilles meets his mother, Thetis. You can cut it down into individual lays, and I think that's how it was probably performed. It got elaborated and elaborated. I think we're probably talking not tens but hundreds of individual bards. They're called rhapsodes. stitches of song who performed it through the dark ages of Greece.

For whatever reason, as I said, I think it's got a lot to do with colonization. Somebody put it all together in the mid-18th century. Now, that might have been an individual genius because the structure is wonderful. There's real artistry in how it's been all put together. if you like, the final stitcher, whether he was called Omeros or not, I don't know. It's a very peculiar name.

It means a hostage. And about 10 different places in ancient Greece claim to be the homeland of Omer. So I don't think we've got any sense of who this individual was, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there wasn't a master hand in pushing it all together because it's very aesthetically satisfying.

It narrates a 40-day period, and it's syncopated. So we're not talking a convenient day, a book sort of thing. Sometimes you have a sort of 10-day gap. They go out to gather wood on the mountains for nine days for the funeral at the end of Patroclus in book 23. And Priam sends his guys out to the mountains for several days.

Sometimes, there's a battle that rages across the middle of the poem, which takes up three or four books, just one battle. It doesn't neatly fit into temporal units. It does neatly fit into thematic and dramatically unified individual episodes.

So it was sort of 10 years. And I think we're meant to feel this is in about eighth or ninth year. Once Achilles kills Hector, which is of course the climax, the final showdown, like the shootout in a Clint Eastwood movie that you've been waiting. That's in book 22 of 24. Just as in the Odyssey, when Odysseus finally kills all the suitors, it's in book 22 of 24.

So you've got that sort of whole buildup that is coming. But 40 days is an interesting unit, apart from the number 40, which often is important. A lot of storytelling, you know, it's like knights in the wilderness and that kind of thing. But it allows a real psychological build-up because Achilles is called the Roth of Achilles, really. The first word is Roth.

Roth, sing me, muse of Achilles, right? It's the 40 days that he was incredibly angry. Yeah. He's first angry with Agamemnon. He's angry with Agamemnon for almost all of that. But then he gets even angrier with Hector because Hector's killed his best friend or lover, however we like to see it, Patroclus. So he actually transfers his anger in Book 90. from Agamemnon to Hector.

But once he's killed Hector, we know that his own death is not far off. That is set up for us in his conversations with his mother, the sea goddess Thetis. So it's a kind of dot, dot, dot ending. Also, the very last line is, thus ended the funeral of Hector. Horse-taming is the last word, which immediately makes you think of the wooden horse, that the Trojans will not be horse-tamers for long.

It very much makes you think of the imminent ending of the war and also the death of Achilles I mean, that's a brilliant structure. So it's not a corny American movie where we've got to be told exactly what happened to everybody. It's left on this ambiguous but very dark funeral note.

Yes, but very slight and very late. We don't mention the judgment of Paris, which is what started it all, because he so offended Hera and Athena when he chose Aphrodite.

Yeah, which meant that he was then allowed to run away with Helen because he chose the most beautiful woman in the world. The judgment of Paris is not mentioned until Book 24, and then only very briefly, right at the end. Paris, we do have Helen in the story. She's a very important character, and we're very aware that Paris and Helen have sex in Book Three.

So that thorn in the side of the Greeks, that their beautiful Helen is actually at it inside Troy, is there. But this poem is not very much interested. In the past, for example, we don't hear about the sacrifice of a virgin hire. all those preparations.

We do hear about a couple of omens, but it's pretty much in the now and we don't get any real predictions of the future, except just once we're told that the plains of Troy would be completely flattened and obliterated as if nothing had ever been there, which is pretty horrific.

We hear what the gods and the rivers are going to do after the war to obliterate Troy, but you're very much in the moment. You're in this terrible psychological warfare going on between these, all of them, arrogant, aggressive narcissists, basically, on the Greek side anyway. That's something we could talk about, is how much more pleasant the Trojans are.

Yes, because his fleets are becalmed by Artemis. For reasons, I mean, none of this is in the Iliad and it's explained differently. So in order to get the winds to sail for Troy, he had to sacrifice his daughter, Iphigenia. That sets up, you know, the audience of the Iliad knows that when Agamemnon gets home, he's for it. His wife's going to kill him, but none of that is in the poem.

Yes, it's run by despotic monarchs with full power. But there's problems because there tend to be families with more than one boy. So we've already got inbuilt conflict, what the Greeks called stasis. You know, you've got a quarrelsome royal family running it. And the real problem comes after a while when they invent sea power. This is the crucial thing. Oh, they invent it. Okay, yeah.

They invent sea power. They invent the very first navy in the world. And there's a big description of it and how these huge, great triremes could go up and down all the channels. And this leads to growing decadence because they start trading with other nations, which makes them more greedy for money. And this is part of what leads to their moral downfall.

Yes, they start taking over other places, just as the Athenian democracy had. They take over places from Tuscany to Egypt, and they're expanding. And here, I think that Plato is drawing actually on the Athenians' experience, not only of their own empire, but of the great Persian empire. There's a certain amount of Persia in these Atlanteans.

Also Phoenicians, because the Phoenicians were the great ancient sea power. So we sort of pick and choose from different colourful, what the Greeks called barbarian, that is non-Greek, ancient cultures that were actually older than the Greeks. And the Egypt thing is in there because we actually get the source is Egyptian. So there's plenty of ways of imagining these gaudy, quite barbarous people.

At first, their island is just a natural utopia. It's full of beautiful natural blessings like timber and flora and fauna. And it's got food in abundance, which when we come on to the ancient Athens, it didn't have. So they were actually lucky. He's implying they didn't need to build an empire. They had everything that they needed.

I absolutely do. And it's because they invent the sea power and the Greeks acknowledge that the first great sea power was not the Greeks, it was the Phoenicians. And they freely admitted they'd learned an awful lot about shipbuilding and how to run a navy from the Phoenicians.

But any one-to-one correspondence fails because ultimately, I think what the Atlanteans are doing is representing what the Athenians became under the democracy. Plato splits his vision of Athens in two, and he puts one half of it in the idealized ancient Athens, primordial Athens of 9,000 years before, and one half of it in the Atlanteans.

But by doing that, he's sort of implying that somehow the Athenians had become more like these wicked barbarian nations. So no one-to-one correspondence really works. And I'm actually really the first scholar to have absolutely insisted on this. The most important article ever written was by a French scholar of considerable fame called Pierre Vidal-Nacquet.

And he's the one who said, this isn't me at all. This is the first work of historical fiction. But you still find, despite people saying, yes, that's the case, they tend to try to say, you know, the Atlanteans are Phoenicians or the Atlanteans are Persians or very often because of the cataclysm. They are the Minoans or Mycenaeans. This has been a very, very popular explanation.

So classical Greeks know that the Bronze Age civilizations of Mycenae and Crete had gone under. They'd been destroyed. The Greeks had entered a dark age. They'd lost writing. Their mode of production had actually regressed rather than progressed. In the case of Crete, it was very much regressed. know that there had been some kind of terrible flood. So there's a bit of that in it as well.

The Atlanteans are a conglomerate of lots of different earlier civilizations. And what I do is insist that no one will work. This is Plato imagining the most glamorous but decadent possible primordial civilization that was destroyed. And he's using every kind of other civilization he can to color that in.

Well, the story is that the Atlanteans' empire grows ever bigger and eventually the proud and noble race of Athenians decides to stand up against them. They're not going to become part of that empire. So there we very much have resonances of the Persian war story. Noble Greeks standing up against vastly larger forces from abroad and the huge navy as well as a huge army.

And they come into conflict. But in fact, the gods before the Atlanteans can take over the Athenians, decide to destroy the entire civilization and submerge it.

Because of its own doing. And this is traced to this human strand from the original founding heroine that Poseidon had impregnated. They've got this bit of humanity in them, whereas the Athenians are rather mysteriously assumed to have somehow sprung from the soil, not through an act of sexual intercourse. They're kind of divinely created from the soil of Athens.

So the origins of these two different races ultimately help to explain why one survives and the other doesn't. One is simply more divine and less morally corrupt.

Yes, the ruination of Athens as imperial power was a result of the Peloponnesian War. The Peloponnesian War was a very, very long war. It went on from 431 BC to 405-404. And after it, which is when Plato's actually writing... The Athenian Empire, which was run by its navy, never really got to be as important again.

So what he's doing is sort of blaming the decadence of his city on the supremacy given to the navy. Because most importantly, the navy in Athens was centered in Piraeus, still is. And Aristotle tells us that by far the most radical democrats weren't Piraeus. They were poor, free men who had to earn their living by rowing, both in the military, the naval force, and in the merchant navy.

They had to go around all the islands, rowing around all the islands to collect the tribute and put people down when they rebelled against the Athenian empire. Plato very particularly identifies the naval element in Athenian imperialism as a the cause of its downfall. In the entire Republic, when he's building Calipolis, Calipolis has no navy. It's not to be given a navy. It must not have a navy.

There's only one discussion of the navy in the entire Republic, and that is the analogy of the ship of Thor's, which is where the democratic sailors of Daedra mutiny against, you know, the wise captain. That's the only example under another platonic text, which is even later, the laws, where some old sages actually plan a real city, slightly different.

They draw up the constitution for a proposed new city in Crete. It is to be set more than 25 miles inland to ensure it will never, ever have a navy. So we've actually got, I think, a real anti-navy obsession there.

The other association, the Piraeus, is where the tyrants who took over Athens in 404, some Athenian tyrants at the end of the war, took it over and for a while managed to completely subvert the democracy. They installed a very different political regime. When they were finally killed by the rebellious Democrats, it was in Piraeus. So there's lots and lots of layers of this.

He absolutely hated, and here's a word for your audience, thalasocracy. The Greek for sea is thalassa, and a thalasocracy is an empire that asserts its rule through sea power. And Thucydides tells us that the very first thalasocracy was actually Minos' in Crete. That's the society that got wiped out by cataclysm. And the thalasocracy of the Atlanteans gets wiped out

And Plato is writing at a time when I guess he's very worried that Athens might become a thalassocracy again.

Well, he doesn't address that practical problem. How are we going to make Athens a non-thalassocracy? Given the shortage of resources in the land of Attica, which is quite barren, they simply couldn't fit. That's why they invaded Sicily. The greatest disaster that lay behind their eventual loss of the war was the 413 catastrophic attempt to annex Sicily.

which is hard to believe now because it's so hot and dry, but was an incredible bread basket. The Romans knew that. They had these huge latifundia in the central plains of Sicily behind the mountains. You know, these are the bread baskets. That's why they went there. That's why they needed to go to Egypt all the time for various different things to eat.

And absolutely, that's why the Black Sea became so important. So Plato doesn't address this, which might be a good moment to move on to his description through Critias of the Aboriginal Athenian society.

He actually says that there's been a very great deal of land erosion. Athens used to be much further from the sea, right? The peripheral coastlines have contracted and contracted and contracted. We used to be an agrarian inland country. There is some truth in that, that is environmental degradation, the coasts of Greece, but nothing like what he's saying.

And so his original Athens, it's emphatically mountain men who work very hard, unlike the Atlanteans, but in a noble way. It's noble labour and eat a living with their goats and their flocks and their harvests. from they are self-sufficient, they have enough because A, they've got more land, hasn't been eroded, and B, they work very hard.

Even more important, most of us know the famous myth of the battle over Athens between Athena and Poseidon. Now, Plato completely rewrites that. He has Attica founded by Athena and Hephaestus. He deletes Poseidon altogether. Poseidon goes off. That's why he goes off and found Atlantis. He's not in the myth. So he says, basically, that we should never have had Poseidon as the other god of Athens.

Poseidon is the great god of the navy. There's a wonderful passage in Aristophanes' Nights, which is actually a love song of the Athenian navy. That poem, that play is all about a huge number of passages directly designed for the seamen in the audience. And we have this extraordinary hymn almost implying that Poseidon's more important than Athena at Athens as god of sea power. Oh, no.

The original Athens has nothing to do with Poseidon whatsoever. It's the craft god Hephaestus because he's clever and he's skillful and he's good at making plows and Athena. So the deletion of Poseidon from the history of Athens really says it all. Music

I don't know the answer to that. And I'm one of the greatest sceptics about accounts of Plato in visiting Dionysius, the great tyrant of Syracuse. And we don't know how the dates work in terms of his visits.

But many scholars do talk about that and say that actually the rather tyrannical and indeed well-equipped with navy power that was Syracuse is yet another ingredient in the portrait of the Atlanteans.

It does start to be referred to by others almost immediately afterwards and captured imagination up to a point of the philosophical schools. But really, it's the Renaissance that seizes on it. It becomes extremely popular as soon as Plato is rediscovered because people like to paint it. We've got an incredible number of visual images 500 years before Disney of how this

And of course, it got linked in with Christian stories of Judeo-Christian stories of humans being wiped out by floods because of their wickedness. It resonated with the story of Noah and the flood, the Deucalion and Pyrrha story, the other flood. Sodom and Gomorrah a bit maybe as well. Absolutely.

So apocalyptic punishment for decadence and overextending your empires, that resonates very profoundly, which allowed it to be one of the stories from pagan antiquity that were assimilated very easily to Christian morality. And that sort of continued, I suppose, in terms of its acceptability. And that was further ramified by the excavations at Pompeii. Now, that wasn't flood, that was volcanoes.

But, you know, Pompeii was first dug up much, much earlier in the Renaissance. A few workmen dug up a few completely obscene images and hastily covered them up. Yes, the secret cabinet, yes. They thought it was devil's work. I mean, they at that time thought that the devil had left these sort of huge fallacies.

But when it was properly dug up, which was the 18th century, the idea and then Pliny is read, the account of the volcano and the excavations at Pompeii do indeed show an extraordinarily lively mercantile society, thoroughly hybrid, ethnically mixed. with a lot of pleasure going on, you know, bordellos and theatre, rude graffiti, murals showing really quite extraordinarily rude sexual things.

As you say, the secret museum in Naples, they were kept under lock and key for a very long time, the more obscene images. So Pompeii became yet another example. And of course, today, apocalyptic fiction of one kind or another has never been more popular. I've heard of the term apocalypse porn. There's a whole sub-genre out there.

I've heard of a whole sub, there's a whole sub genres out there often set in the future, you know, after whatever we humans do to the planet, we're going to have flood and fire then endless TV shows with the premise of there are just a few survivors. Atlantis sort of underlies far more stories than those just about Atlantis.

Oh, it's right there in the Renaissance when people start reading Plato. People try to find it. And that, of course, is the great age of the first great European colonisation of the Americas and India for the sort of 15th century onwards. So wherever they went, they were trying to find Atlantis. The literalist reading of Plato. I don't think they understood it as fiction at all.

I think quite the opposite. I think that's a fairly recent academic proposition as we come to understand Plato's politics more. I mean, Atlantis has been discovered, you know, in the Dogger Bank.

I haven't done this research, but some other people have. It's been found in absolutely everywhere in the world that our ships have sailed. People have said this. And of course, there are all over the Mediterranean. There are submerged cities. Parts of northern Egypt fell off.

There was a great British museum exhibition lately of incredible finds of the north coast of Egypt, of bits of land fall off, water levels rise, cities get submerged. So you could actually sometimes find real cities that you can say must have been Atlantis. A lot of people say it's the Canary Islands, that there were other canaries because of their geographical position.

I mean, it's quite a game if you're a traveller. Ask anybody, wherever you go in the world. And once people actually got to the Australasian region, Tasmania, I mean, you name it, it's been Atlantis.

Exactly. So I would actually say that what I'm saying is by far the minority view. If you're talking about popular opinion, most people want to believe it and they want to have the mystery, just like they want to find Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster.

Thank you. I've loved it.

Thank you so much. It's a delight for me as well.

Yes, Atlantis is one of the few words from antiquity that is very generally recognised on the street, along with Aesop and Odysseus, and just possibly, if you're lucky, sort of Medea or Troy. It's something that everybody knows about. Anything that's actually been Disney-fied, of course, enters an international, global, popular culture dimension that we would love all of classics to have.

Probably at the moment only rivaled by gladiators.

No. The story of Atlantis is incredibly important culturally, not just because people love it so much, but because it's the first ever work of historical fiction. So it's the founding text of a genre that we all love. It is immensely popular internationally.

that has countless examples just in the classical world of some of the greatest novels about Pompeii, all the novels about Roman emperors, I Claudius. It's the founding text of that entire genre, but it's by a philosopher called Plato. There are strands of truth in it, in that the ancient Greeks and Romans were acquainted with tsunamis.

They were acquainted with catastrophic, apocalyptic wipings out of civilizations. So the general kind of backstory that a whole culture can get wiped out by a natural disaster draws on reality. But this specific story is absolutely fiction. And it was fiction designed for a very particular purpose at a very particular time.

There's no trace of Atlantis before two dialogues by Plato that fit together, which are the Timaeus and the Critias. These are composed in the first third of the fourth century BC. So nearly two and a half thousand years ago. But they set the story at least 9000 years prior to that. These are guys...

Two and a half thousand years ago, imagining what happened actually for us 11 and a half thousand years ago.

Athens is not just a philosophical hub, it's actually coming into its own as the philosophical hub. In the fifth century, Socrates, who was Plato's teacher, was more of a sort of freelance guy. He didn't have a particular university or institution. He would go around harassing people with his philosophical dialogues and interviews in public spaces like Market Square and the gymnasium.

His student Plato founded the first, what, we would recognise as a university. Although it did no science, it was only humanities and maths for the academy at some point in the very early 4th century BC. So this is a community of like-minded people, people who were rich enough and intellectually enough to want to spend their time discussing philosophical ideas.

And these dialogues almost certainly result from actual lecture courses that he gave, or at least seminars, discussions in the academy, and the philosophical history, the history of ancient philosophies really kicks off at the academy. It's actually eclipsed, in my view, by the Lyceum of Aristotle.

Aristotle is one of Plato's students, and he finds the Lyceum, and that's bigger and better for several reasons, one of which is that it did science material science, physics, biology, zoology, cosmology, as well as philosophy, the humanities subjects.

So we're just at the dawn, actually, of the ancient schools of philosophy, which were to go on for another 900 years until the schools were closed down by the Christian emperors.

These two dialogues form a pair, but they're also direct sequels to Plato's greatest work, The Republic. Now, The Republic is a dialogue set in the very late 5th century, and it discusses, basically, from a theoretical point of view, what would the ideal constitution of a city look like if you're a Platonic philosopher? What would it look like?

It's idealistic, it's a conjectural, it's hypothetical. The next day, we're told, some of the guys who were present at that dialogue and some who weren't met up for another day of festival, because this all takes place during a great Athenian festival, and decided what they needed to do on the suggestion of Socrates is think harder about this place.

This is called Kallipolis, which means the beautiful city, which so far in the discussion in the Republic has only existed as a hypothesis. We're going to try and see whether we can give a real concrete example of it.

And it turns out that Critias, who's one of the guys at this general symposium, knows a story of a real Kallipolis that existed all these thousand years ago, 98,000 years ago before that. And he says, well, actually, we don't need to be hypothetical anymore because I was told a story about a real place that existed.

And that was actually Athens of 9000 years ago before it got corrupted the way it is now. So we don't need a virtual city. We've got an example of a real Kallipolis. And it was our own city before it went bad. And because it's Plato, bad means democratic, run by unruly sailors, right?

Lots of blending of classes, lots of rowdy behaviour, lots of exciting theatrical culture, lots of law court litigation, all the things that made actually democratic Athens, in my view, the great place it was. Socrates has said he wants to outlaw, he wants a much more conservative, agrarian, very rigid class structure society in his hypothetical one in the Republic.

And lo and behold, Critias comes up with an account of such things. a conservative, class-bound, rigid, agrarian, non-democratic, he thinks, ideal city-state, which was what Athens was. So in a way, you've got a strange hypothetical future meeting an actual, allegedly, materially historical past. So that's the conceit.

But what Plato does very cleverly is actually cast, while he's letting Critiasse Most of it's in the Critias. Timaeus kicks it off, but the full detailed account that comes down in all our novels, all our fictions, all our movies of Callipolis and its rival, Atlantis, which is not Athenian. It's the complete opposite of Athens. It's a sea-going place which gets destroyed because it's sinful.

We've got these two historical rivals in a long-ago war supposedly in a very traditional old narrative that Critias has got access to. But we can go on to talk about just how Plato complicates that because he does cleverly point out how unreliable memories are going to be over 9,000 years.

Critias says that he had heard it from his grandfather, also named Critias, so that would be a man born in the much earlier 5th century. And this grandfather had heard it from his father, and his grandfather was 90 when he told it to the grandson. And he then says... Critias describes how he encountered the narrative.

So he says a speech was once made by Solon, who's many generations ago ruler of Athens. Solon's relative, Dropedes. And Dropedes was Critias' great-grandfather. So the grandfather then told it to Critias, who's now telling it to Socrates. Ha! So we've got it back to Solon via four or five hands in this family. All right. Critias is already six in the train.

But the trouble is that Solon said he'd got it off a priest in Egypt. OK, so we're now hearing it from Plato. So we are actually ninth in the chain from the original source, which is an Egyptian priest, at least 200 years before the date of the dialogue where it's said. So why does Plato bother to complicate all that?

I think he's actually shouting to us, people tell stories that are completely unreliable and elaborated over many generations, while also wanting us to enjoy it. So it's a very peculiar way of setting up what's purportedly truth.

The fact that I even have trouble remembering the detail in Plato's dialogue of these many hands is an example of how memory doesn't work when you're reporting it. This is always, Plato is such a clever writer. He's shouting at us all, this is an unreliable, orally transmitted account, but I'm still going to let you have it anyway.

So I think if we read these texts properly, Plato's admitting that it's as good as fiction.

Oh, yes, it's beautiful. Listen, and it creates it very visually in your mind. Atlantis is founded basically by the god Poseidon. And Poseidon goes to these islands and these islands lie beyond the pillars of Hercules. So somewhere in the Eastern Atlantic, but these islands stretch from Egypt and sort of Spain and France. Okay. So these islands in the Eastern Atlantic, it's called Atlantis.

And Poseidon goes in and decides to actually set up people that, you know, it's not a proper community. It's not a proper civilization. And he goes in And he actually changes the whole geological constitution by creating this central island. And that is then surrounded by concentric marine canals. So if you can imagine a sort of circular island...

and then several alternating canals, which are just concentric rings and more blocks of land. And he creates all these places and puts bridges over them. And the reason why he wanted it like that was that he'd fallen in love with a human woman. This is very important because the Athenians are not descended from an actual sex act with a human.

There's a half-human element in the Atlanteans, which actually, when we go on to the ideal Athenians, doesn't quite share anything.

But Plato gives us, and I can only really recommend reading it, the most extraordinarily beautiful, and this is why people love it and why cartoon artists love it, detailed description of all these, especially the city centre island, which has temples carved with the most beautiful coloured murals, with incredible layers of incrustation of jewels and sanctuaries and statues.

I mean, it's meant to be slightly over-opulent. That's going to be part of the point that these people were gaudy and too interested in material consumption and they were flashy and they were a bit vulgar and they liked spectacle. All the things that actually Plato accuses his contemporary Athenians of, just loving spectacle. But it's a beautiful, beautiful read.

And that's really, I think, that and the actual cataclysm.

Hi, I'm absolutely thrilled to be here, though I would dispute that Aristotle's actually dead to me because I dream about him almost every night.

Hi, I'm absolutely thrilled to be here, though I would dispute that Aristotle's actually dead to me because I dream about him almost every night.

He was, to my mind, a rather boring mathematician and nobody's ever heard of him, but he was also related to Plato. Oh, nepotism.

He was, to my mind, a rather boring mathematician and nobody's ever heard of him, but he was also related to Plato. Oh, nepotism.

Partly nepotism, but I suspect it was much more envy that all the other people at the academy just couldn't stand the fact that this guy so outclassed them that instead of saying, great, we make him in charge and we're in his slipstream and we can all benefit, it's bye-bye Aristotle.

Partly nepotism, but I suspect it was much more envy that all the other people at the academy just couldn't stand the fact that this guy so outclassed them that instead of saying, great, we make him in charge and we're in his slipstream and we can all benefit, it's bye-bye Aristotle.

Yeah. Okay. And off he goes to Assos, which is where? It's absolutely stunning. It's on the western coast of Turkey, but further down. And it's all, the nearest island is Lesbos. So as you can see, it's about sort of halfway down. And he's invited by a guy called Hermias. Yes. Who is a former slave who's now ended up as king. That's what they say. There's been some sort of coup.

Yeah. Okay. And off he goes to Assos, which is where? It's absolutely stunning. It's on the western coast of Turkey, but further down. And it's all, the nearest island is Lesbos. So as you can see, it's about sort of halfway down. And he's invited by a guy called Hermias. Yes. Who is a former slave who's now ended up as king. That's what they say. There's been some sort of coup.

He may have committed murder. He may have murdered the tyrant. He's become... King or tyrant, which means somebody who's come into monarchical power, but not through hereditary. Yeah. And he invites Aristotle over, apparently, to help him write a constitution.

He may have committed murder. He may have murdered the tyrant. He's become... King or tyrant, which means somebody who's come into monarchical power, but not through hereditary. Yeah. And he invites Aristotle over, apparently, to help him write a constitution.

It's either Hermias' daughter or his adopted daughter or possibly his niece. But anyway, it's a posh woman in his court. Called Pythias. Called Pythias. Yeah. What's that mean? Well, it means like the sort of big snake at Delphi. The python. Yeah. But that's okay. Sort of snakey lady. Snakey lady. What should we call our daughter? Snake lady.

It's either Hermias' daughter or his adopted daughter or possibly his niece. But anyway, it's a posh woman in his court. Called Pythias. Called Pythias. Yeah. What's that mean? Well, it means like the sort of big snake at Delphi. The python. Yeah. But that's okay. Sort of snakey lady. Snakey lady. What should we call our daughter? Snake lady.

Well, it's possible, but it's also possible that she actually died in childbirth.

Well, it's possible, but it's also possible that she actually died in childbirth.

In which case it would have been very natural to call the little girl Pythias. Oh, that's sad. Oh, right, so we don't know? We don't really know.

In which case it would have been very natural to call the little girl Pythias. Oh, that's sad. Oh, right, so we don't know? We don't really know.

It's interesting what we know and don't know.

It's interesting what we know and don't know.

He does refer, though, to people who send babies out to wet nurses quite often.

He does refer, though, to people who send babies out to wet nurses quite often.

Very much so. There are three big cities. The biggest is Mytilene. And it's a place of great culture. It's deeply cultured. Right. Very ancient. It's had the poet Sappho. It's had another very famous poet called Alcaeus. It's already in the Iliad as the land of fair women. Also got the most extraordinary natural world.

Very much so. There are three big cities. The biggest is Mytilene. And it's a place of great culture. It's deeply cultured. Right. Very ancient. It's had the poet Sappho. It's had another very famous poet called Alcaeus. It's already in the Iliad as the land of fair women. Also got the most extraordinary natural world.

I mean, it's got, botanists today will say, it's got outstanding amount of really interesting plants that don't exist anywhere else. And it's got this massive lagoon, which is a lake, which is mainly freshwater, but it actually blurs into saltwater and meets the sea. And it had such an amazing amount of interesting creatures living in it that Aristotle said, I know what I want to be now.

I mean, it's got, botanists today will say, it's got outstanding amount of really interesting plants that don't exist anywhere else. And it's got this massive lagoon, which is a lake, which is mainly freshwater, but it actually blurs into saltwater and meets the sea. And it had such an amazing amount of interesting creatures living in it that Aristotle said, I know what I want to be now.

I'm going to be a marine zoologist. Did he invent that? Yeah. Wow.

I'm going to be a marine zoologist. Did he invent that? Yeah. Wow.

You know, the original Addams Family movie, not the TV series, they have a pet octopus. Yeah. Because it's a cephalopod. Do you know what they call it? Aristotle. Yeah.

You know, the original Addams Family movie, not the TV series, they have a pet octopus. Yeah. Because it's a cephalopod. Do you know what they call it? Aristotle. Yeah.

I don't think so. The fact is he got a very good friend, either already had or more likely made. But there was this young guy, he was 17 years younger than him, so about 20, called Theo Fraster, who means speaks like a god. And he is a lesbian. He lives on Lesbos. Stop it. Right. I'm just mirroring what you're saying. He's obsessed with plants.

I don't think so. The fact is he got a very good friend, either already had or more likely made. But there was this young guy, he was 17 years younger than him, so about 20, called Theo Fraster, who means speaks like a god. And he is a lesbian. He lives on Lesbos. Stop it. Right. I'm just mirroring what you're saying. He's obsessed with plants.

And I think they quite literally decided over whatever the ancient ouzo was to invent zoology and botany together. And I think he's probably living off theophrastus' hospitality. But what I really admire is for all he knew, he was going to be stuck on that island as a poor relation, as it were, forever. Right. And he says, OK, if I'm going to be stuck on this island, what's this island got?

And I think they quite literally decided over whatever the ancient ouzo was to invent zoology and botany together. And I think he's probably living off theophrastus' hospitality. But what I really admire is for all he knew, he was going to be stuck on that island as a poor relation, as it were, forever. Right. And he says, OK, if I'm going to be stuck on this island, what's this island got?

I will devote my life to inventing Zoology. Do you see what I mean?

I will devote my life to inventing Zoology. Do you see what I mean?

No, if life gives you lemon.

No, if life gives you lemon.

back then there was so much nothing had been described when you invent something but he also invents environmental thinking one of the things he sees or doesn't see in the lagoon he says there used to be a thing called a red scallop the fishermen have told me he talked to all the people who really knew the fishermen have told me but overfishing has killed it. It is extinct. Yeah, oh wow.

back then there was so much nothing had been described when you invent something but he also invents environmental thinking one of the things he sees or doesn't see in the lagoon he says there used to be a thing called a red scallop the fishermen have told me he talked to all the people who really knew the fishermen have told me but overfishing has killed it. It is extinct. Yeah, oh wow.

He actually says that. That's the first reference in world literature to human industrial farming or anything actually killing off a species.

He actually says that. That's the first reference in world literature to human industrial farming or anything actually killing off a species.

So he's now actually quite big in green circles.

So he's now actually quite big in green circles.

Two men, a baby, and a hundred octopuses. Yeah.

Two men, a baby, and a hundred octopuses. Yeah.

I suspect he got a letter from one of Alexander's lieutenants who had indeed seen elephant bending in India. So he believes that women have fewer teeth than men. But the point about that one is that it's a result of doing some empirical studies and drawing false inference from them. So I know because I've given birth to two children and breastfed two children and I have lost two teeth.

I suspect he got a letter from one of Alexander's lieutenants who had indeed seen elephant bending in India. So he believes that women have fewer teeth than men. But the point about that one is that it's a result of doing some empirical studies and drawing false inference from them. So I know because I've given birth to two children and breastfed two children and I have lost two teeth.

So if you look into the mouth of a woman, you know, who had four children, which most women will have done in ancient Greece, they will have all lost one tooth for each child, because you do. And he'll have counted fewer if he did a test case of 30 women, and they all had four fewer teeth than men. That is actually a perfectly valid inference from an empirical survey.

So if you look into the mouth of a woman, you know, who had four children, which most women will have done in ancient Greece, they will have all lost one tooth for each child, because you do. And he'll have counted fewer if he did a test case of 30 women, and they all had four fewer teeth than men. That is actually a perfectly valid inference from an empirical survey.

Well, you didn't have women at dinner parties. Yeah. The symposium. The symposium. But he would have looked in any woman who was prepared to open her mouth. Yeah. And show him.

Well, you didn't have women at dinner parties. Yeah. The symposium. The symposium. But he would have looked in any woman who was prepared to open her mouth. Yeah. And show him.

And I think it may even be the same with eels because I don't know an awful lot about eels and reproduction. But I suspect he got a tank and watched them for many hours because we know, for example, he sat looking at a chicken's egg for 20 days or something to see what happened to it.

And I think it may even be the same with eels because I don't know an awful lot about eels and reproduction. But I suspect he got a tank and watched them for many hours because we know, for example, he sat looking at a chicken's egg for 20 days or something to see what happened to it.

He will have watched those eels and never actually seen them copulate or something. And therefore inferred. So I'm not, I think laughing at him is wrong because he was drawing sometimes false inferences from studious empirical observation.

He will have watched those eels and never actually seen them copulate or something. And therefore inferred. So I'm not, I think laughing at him is wrong because he was drawing sometimes false inferences from studious empirical observation.

And not everybody's prepared to watch a tank full of eels for several days.

And not everybody's prepared to watch a tank full of eels for several days.

Dedication.

Dedication.

Yes, exactly.

Yes, exactly.

You can tell that from his work on volcanoes. He builds up a relational database, which is no mean feat on ancient papyrus.

You can tell that from his work on volcanoes. He builds up a relational database, which is no mean feat on ancient papyrus.

When he gets the gig and decides to go, that's how it's always put in his biographies. We don't know any more about it. I would say when you get a letter from Philip, the greatest murderer the Greek world has ever known of Macedon, you don't sit around saying, I don't think I feel like that because you might be dead the next day.

When he gets the gig and decides to go, that's how it's always put in his biographies. We don't know any more about it. I would say when you get a letter from Philip, the greatest murderer the Greek world has ever known of Macedon, you don't sit around saying, I don't think I feel like that because you might be dead the next day.

Also, it did mean money, money, money, money, money. And I think Aristotle already always had his eye on the long game, which was to found a university to completely outclass the academy.

Also, it did mean money, money, money, money, money. And I think Aristotle already always had his eye on the long game, which was to found a university to completely outclass the academy.

Yeah, but if you're...

Yeah, but if you're...

Must have been incredibly difficult.

Must have been incredibly difficult.

Well, he would have definitely taught him ethics, politics and rhetoric. This is a sort of curriculum, how to behave.

Well, he would have definitely taught him ethics, politics and rhetoric. This is a sort of curriculum, how to behave.

How to govern your country and how to speak in public. Yes, this has been the basis of it. But we simply don't know. And everything that Aristotle wrote after... Alexander went east, Philip died, and Alexander went east. And Aristotle went straight back to Athens and founded the Lyceum. Everything he wrote after, he never really talks about Macedonia.

How to govern your country and how to speak in public. Yes, this has been the basis of it. But we simply don't know. And everything that Aristotle wrote after... Alexander went east, Philip died, and Alexander went east. And Aristotle went straight back to Athens and founded the Lyceum. Everything he wrote after, he never really talks about Macedonia.

He does talk about things like really evil, very rich people. Or what happens in tyrants' households. You know, that kind of thing. But he doesn't put names to it, usually.

He does talk about things like really evil, very rich people. Or what happens in tyrants' households. You know, that kind of thing. But he doesn't put names to it, usually.

No, because Alexander the Great we know even less about than Aristotle. All the sources are so late. And myths were being made because he died out there. He never came back. He crossed the Hellespont and never came back. He liked being on campaign with all his male mates and drinking himself stupid. I mean, he did. And I think that's one thing Oliver Stone got over quite well in that movie.

No, because Alexander the Great we know even less about than Aristotle. All the sources are so late. And myths were being made because he died out there. He never came back. He crossed the Hellespont and never came back. He liked being on campaign with all his male mates and drinking himself stupid. I mean, he did. And I think that's one thing Oliver Stone got over quite well in that movie.

He liked that life. He never wanted to come back and be a responsible ruler.

He liked that life. He never wanted to come back and be a responsible ruler.

I completely get it. He didn't want to go back to all those old rivalries. But that's called the Lyceum. And because Theophrastus was natural science and he did it with Theophrastus. So he brings Theophrastus with him. Utterly loyal to Theophrastus, yes. They do it together.

I completely get it. He didn't want to go back to all those old rivalries. But that's called the Lyceum. And because Theophrastus was natural science and he did it with Theophrastus. So he brings Theophrastus with him. Utterly loyal to Theophrastus, yes. They do it together.

Well, not as a returning hero, I don't think, but as a perfectly welcome resident alien. He never got citizenship. Never, really? But I think he got loads of money. I have to say this. I think he was very sensible that he will have been paid extremely well. Being with Philip of Macedon's court. So he took that money and ran and stayed alive and ran. And then put some money into the school.

Well, not as a returning hero, I don't think, but as a perfectly welcome resident alien. He never got citizenship. Never, really? But I think he got loads of money. I have to say this. I think he was very sensible that he will have been paid extremely well. Being with Philip of Macedon's court. So he took that money and ran and stayed alive and ran. And then put some money into the school.