Professor Andrew Wallace-Hadrill

The terrifying prospect of foreigners discovering their most important site. The Italian parliament votes against it, and they back right off. So that when a new superintendent is appointed by the fascists in the 1920s, Amadeo Maiuri. Wonderful character. He's very young. He's in his early 30s when he takes over. And he starts in Pompeii in 1924.

The terrifying prospect of foreigners discovering their most important site. The Italian parliament votes against it, and they back right off. So that when a new superintendent is appointed by the fascists in the 1920s, Amadeo Maiuri. Wonderful character. He's very young. He's in his early 30s when he takes over. And he starts in Pompeii in 1924.

And by 1927, he's leading a campaign, we've got to excavate Herculaneum. Look at this book by the Cambridge professor Charles Wallstein. Herculaneum is actually more important than Pompeii. Its potential is higher than Pompeii. And in my view, he's still right. And that still remains the case. Pompeii is pretty well excavated. Only one third of it is unexcavated.

And by 1927, he's leading a campaign, we've got to excavate Herculaneum. Look at this book by the Cambridge professor Charles Wallstein. Herculaneum is actually more important than Pompeii. Its potential is higher than Pompeii. And in my view, he's still right. And that still remains the case. Pompeii is pretty well excavated. Only one third of it is unexcavated.

And in truth, it's the one third of it that's least likely to be interesting because it's closest to the walls where they had vineyards and so on and less activity there. Whereas Herculaneum, you've got at least two-thirds. Two-thirds. That's historical. And you're right on the edge of the great public center of the site.

And in truth, it's the one third of it that's least likely to be interesting because it's closest to the walls where they had vineyards and so on and less activity there. Whereas Herculaneum, you've got at least two-thirds. Two-thirds. That's historical. And you're right on the edge of the great public center of the site.

And the irony is the modern town of Herculaneum is sitting right on top of the center of ancient Herculaneum, and we can't get at it. We can see the edge of it, the edge of the centre. We can see it's really, really important. And you can't get in without causing the houses above to collapse, which is why Maiori stopped where he stopped. There were too many technical problems.

And the irony is the modern town of Herculaneum is sitting right on top of the center of ancient Herculaneum, and we can't get at it. We can see the edge of it, the edge of the centre. We can see it's really, really important. And you can't get in without causing the houses above to collapse, which is why Maiori stopped where he stopped. There were too many technical problems.

Without actually demolishing modern Ercolano, you can't complete the excavation.

Without actually demolishing modern Ercolano, you can't complete the excavation.

No, it's not a Roman town. It becomes a Roman town by conquest. The Bay of Naples is on a really interesting geographical point of what you could call cultural collision. Meetings are sometimes quite violent between different cultures. The south of Italy is colonized, if that's the right word for it. New cities are created by Greeks.

No, it's not a Roman town. It becomes a Roman town by conquest. The Bay of Naples is on a really interesting geographical point of what you could call cultural collision. Meetings are sometimes quite violent between different cultures. The south of Italy is colonized, if that's the right word for it. New cities are created by Greeks.

And Posidonia is the biggest city that is near the Bay of Naples, apart from Naples itself. So there is a massive Greek presence in that area. But it's also rather obstinately local. And it's hard to know what to call the locals. You can call them Oscans. It's Oscan, isn't it? Because Oscan is their language, which is very closely related to Latin, but not Latin and proudly not Latin, right? Yeah.

And Posidonia is the biggest city that is near the Bay of Naples, apart from Naples itself. So there is a massive Greek presence in that area. But it's also rather obstinately local. And it's hard to know what to call the locals. You can call them Oscans. It's Oscan, isn't it? Because Oscan is their language, which is very closely related to Latin, but not Latin and proudly not Latin, right? Yeah.

And, of course, a Roman presence, because the Romans were extremely interested in the Bay of Naples. And by the end of the 3rd century onwards, there are massive and military presence there. Both Pompeii and Herculaneum are in this sort of twilight zone between what are we? Are we local? Are we Greek? Are we Roman? We're a mixture of these things. So the very name of Herculaneum says Greek.

And, of course, a Roman presence, because the Romans were extremely interested in the Bay of Naples. And by the end of the 3rd century onwards, there are massive and military presence there. Both Pompeii and Herculaneum are in this sort of twilight zone between what are we? Are we local? Are we Greek? Are we Roman? We're a mixture of these things. So the very name of Herculaneum says Greek.

And the myth is it was founded by Hercules, the great hero, in his wanderings around the western Mediterranean. And I sometimes wish we could call it the city of Hercules because everyone knows Hercules and nobody can pronounce Herculaneum because there are too many syllables in it. And if only we called it the city of Hercules, which is what it means.

And the myth is it was founded by Hercules, the great hero, in his wanderings around the western Mediterranean. And I sometimes wish we could call it the city of Hercules because everyone knows Hercules and nobody can pronounce Herculaneum because there are too many syllables in it. And if only we called it the city of Hercules, which is what it means.

And so the ancient geographer Strabo says it was founded by Hercules, okay? That was the local myth. Really interestingly, we've looked desperately for any evidence, not of Hercules, of course. You don't expect mythology to show up in the archaeological record, but you might expect evidence of a presence back there in the Iron Age, in the 7th century, 6th century. Not a dicky bird.

And so the ancient geographer Strabo says it was founded by Hercules, okay? That was the local myth. Really interestingly, we've looked desperately for any evidence, not of Hercules, of course. You don't expect mythology to show up in the archaeological record, but you might expect evidence of a presence back there in the Iron Age, in the 7th century, 6th century. Not a dicky bird.

It's a mystery. One day someone may be able to find something, but we can't go earlier than the third century. I don't think that means it was first founded in the third century. I don't find that credible. They were so convinced and they had the story. It was founded by Hercules. It was originally an Oskan city. And then the Romans arrived.

It's a mystery. One day someone may be able to find something, but we can't go earlier than the third century. I don't think that means it was first founded in the third century. I don't find that credible. They were so convinced and they had the story. It was founded by Hercules. It was originally an Oskan city. And then the Romans arrived.

The Romans arrive in that traumatic period, which we call the social wars, which is when the allies of Rome, the Sox speaking ones, they rebel against Rome. Why? Because they have been fighting all the battles alongside the Romans. The Romans have been helping themselves, all the prophets of conquest, and saying to the Oscars, you can have Tup and Satanic. And the Oscars are really frustrated.

The Romans arrive in that traumatic period, which we call the social wars, which is when the allies of Rome, the Sox speaking ones, they rebel against Rome. Why? Because they have been fighting all the battles alongside the Romans. The Romans have been helping themselves, all the prophets of conquest, and saying to the Oscars, you can have Tup and Satanic. And the Oscars are really frustrated.

And they say, we want equal rights. Equal rights, citizenship. Come on, we're the same as you. The Romans say, no. And they say, right, we're going to fight for it. And the Romans defeat them, but they cave in. They get their citizenship. And that is the way that Rome then forward can expand. And it sets the model for expansion right across the empire. So Herculaneum was a rebel city.

And they say, we want equal rights. Equal rights, citizenship. Come on, we're the same as you. The Romans say, no. And they say, right, we're going to fight for it. And the Romans defeat them, but they cave in. They get their citizenship. And that is the way that Rome then forward can expand. And it sets the model for expansion right across the empire. So Herculaneum was a rebel city.

Oh, we do know it was, didn't we? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, it's one of the earliest passages that mentions Herculaneum is a narrative. We only have a fragment of this, a narrative of the social war. And the Roman general arrives with his army, and he finds this guard post, a stronghold, between two rivers.

Oh, we do know it was, didn't we? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, it's one of the earliest passages that mentions Herculaneum is a narrative. We only have a fragment of this, a narrative of the social war. And the Roman general arrives with his army, and he finds this guard post, a stronghold, between two rivers.

So the thing we know about Herculaneum was it was between two rivers, which would make it really easy to defend. We can't find the rivers. We know where one was. It's right on the edge of the site. We can't find the other, though. It must be just past the theatre, we think.

So the thing we know about Herculaneum was it was between two rivers, which would make it really easy to defend. We can't find the rivers. We know where one was. It's right on the edge of the site. We can't find the other, though. It must be just past the theatre, we think.

But the whole area, there will have been many rivers, because what you've got is volcanic flow coming down to the sea, which then gets riven by a series of watercourses, which create rivers through the soft toothed.

But the whole area, there will have been many rivers, because what you've got is volcanic flow coming down to the sea, which then gets riven by a series of watercourses, which create rivers through the soft toothed.

Absolutely. This is the paradox of living with a volcano. English people find it really hard to get their heads around. Why on earth did anyone live on the Bay of Naples? You have to take a page from Seneca, who, when there was a great earthquake a little before the eruption, and he was asked, and he was writing a work of science, He was asked, should we evacuate?

Absolutely. This is the paradox of living with a volcano. English people find it really hard to get their heads around. Why on earth did anyone live on the Bay of Naples? You have to take a page from Seneca, who, when there was a great earthquake a little before the eruption, and he was asked, and he was writing a work of science, He was asked, should we evacuate?

Is it too dangerous to live in this area? He said, look, nowhere is safe to live. And the truth is the whole west coast of Italy is volcanic. And Senec said, you know, it might blow anywhere. You can't be confident of the earth. So just stay then, he said. Just stay. And people do stay. around volcanoes because they are tremendously fertile. It's like you're living on fertilizer.

Is it too dangerous to live in this area? He said, look, nowhere is safe to live. And the truth is the whole west coast of Italy is volcanic. And Senec said, you know, it might blow anywhere. You can't be confident of the earth. So just stay then, he said. Just stay. And people do stay. around volcanoes because they are tremendously fertile. It's like you're living on fertilizer.

You can grow three crops a year instead of one crop a year. And in that mild atmosphere of the bay, it's just glorious.

You can grow three crops a year instead of one crop a year. And in that mild atmosphere of the bay, it's just glorious.

No, no, no. It punches above its weight, doesn't it? It makes no sense to us that a town of, they say, 4,000 inhabitants. I say that's too many. I can't put them within the walls. I say 3,000 maximum. It could be 2,500. But it really doesn't matter. It's not a big... To us, it's...

No, no, no. It punches above its weight, doesn't it? It makes no sense to us that a town of, they say, 4,000 inhabitants. I say that's too many. I can't put them within the walls. I say 3,000 maximum. It could be 2,500. But it really doesn't matter. It's not a big... To us, it's...

not even a town, it's a big village in terms of size, but in terms of public amenities, in terms of how impressive it was. It's way, way up the list. And the truth is, in antiquity, Cities were small by our standards, of course, and they didn't have cities of 10 million. Only one city, Rome, of as many as 1 million. Most cities are in the 5 to 10 million range.

not even a town, it's a big village in terms of size, but in terms of public amenities, in terms of how impressive it was. It's way, way up the list. And the truth is, in antiquity, Cities were small by our standards, of course, and they didn't have cities of 10 million. Only one city, Rome, of as many as 1 million. Most cities are in the 5 to 10 million range.

So, okay, even for antiquity, Herculaneum's not a big place, but it's a proud place. It's a rich place. It's a prosperous place. It's a place to be.

So, okay, even for antiquity, Herculaneum's not a big place, but it's a proud place. It's a rich place. It's a prosperous place. It's a place to be.

And Colchester doesn't do bad in terms of public monuments and so on. No, exactly. When the Romans make a town, it's impressive.

And Colchester doesn't do bad in terms of public monuments and so on. No, exactly. When the Romans make a town, it's impressive.

Well, of course, we have to assume that we do. Because nowhere else is preserved like Pompeii and Herculaneum are preserved. And so we look at the almost pathetic remains of most Roman cities. And we have to reconstruct what they were like. And we turn to Pompeii and Herculaneum. What if this rose to a few more stories? And of course, Pompeii gives you a model of one story.

Well, of course, we have to assume that we do. Because nowhere else is preserved like Pompeii and Herculaneum are preserved. And so we look at the almost pathetic remains of most Roman cities. And we have to reconstruct what they were like. And we turn to Pompeii and Herculaneum. What if this rose to a few more stories? And of course, Pompeii gives you a model of one story.

You can see up to the top of the walls of the first story in Pompeii. Herculaneum gives you the second floor. So multi-story flats. Yeah, but if you've got an excavation that is as deep as 20 meters, of course, you're getting a great depth. The tallest building is the block of flats on the edge of the site. And there are bits of the third story surviving. So, you know, I've been up there.

You can see up to the top of the walls of the first story in Pompeii. Herculaneum gives you the second floor. So multi-story flats. Yeah, but if you've got an excavation that is as deep as 20 meters, of course, you're getting a great depth. The tallest building is the block of flats on the edge of the site. And there are bits of the third story surviving. So, you know, I've been up there.

I've looked down from a latrine on the third story. And it's an amazing experience. The truth is, I've done the same in Rome. I've stood on a fifth story in Rome, right under the capital line. There is a five-story building. block of flats that has survived so you know it's not impossible but because of the

I've looked down from a latrine on the third story. And it's an amazing experience. The truth is, I've done the same in Rome. I've stood on a fifth story in Rome, right under the capital line. There is a five-story building. block of flats that has survived so you know it's not impossible but because of the

nature and the detail of the preservation of these sites, we have to extrapolate from them to understand other cities. I think the danger is turning everywhere else into a Pompeii and a Herculaneum for the bits that are missing. Were Roman cities all following a similar formula? Yes. There are certain components you find again and again. Like the central forum, the main area?

nature and the detail of the preservation of these sites, we have to extrapolate from them to understand other cities. I think the danger is turning everywhere else into a Pompeii and a Herculaneum for the bits that are missing. Were Roman cities all following a similar formula? Yes. There are certain components you find again and again. Like the central forum, the main area?

You've got to have a central forum. You've got to have the public buildings around the forum. You've got to have a basilica, which in Herculaneum's case is really important, though we haven't excavated it. You've got to have a basilica, a senate house, civic buildings, temples, markets. And then you have the entertainment baths and amphitheatres and so on. Herculaneum has the full set.

You've got to have a central forum. You've got to have the public buildings around the forum. You've got to have a basilica, which in Herculaneum's case is really important, though we haven't excavated it. You've got to have a basilica, a senate house, civic buildings, temples, markets. And then you have the entertainment baths and amphitheatres and so on. Herculaneum has the full set.

Yet, though, okay, pretty well every Roman city has a selection of these elements, not necessarily all. They don't all have amphitheaters. And Herculaneum didn't have an amphitheater. Doesn't, okay. Pompeii does. though they don't all have everything, and they aren't all necessarily in the same relationship to each other. There are patterns, but there's endless variation on the patterns.

Yet, though, okay, pretty well every Roman city has a selection of these elements, not necessarily all. They don't all have amphitheaters. And Herculaneum didn't have an amphitheater. Doesn't, okay. Pompeii does. though they don't all have everything, and they aren't all necessarily in the same relationship to each other. There are patterns, but there's endless variation on the patterns.

And so, one of the consequences is we don't know where the forum of Herculaneum was. That is to say, I am pretty confident that I know where it was. But many people disagree with me about it. So right on the edge of the excavation, there is a beautiful archway and it leads into the edge of a space.

And so, one of the consequences is we don't know where the forum of Herculaneum was. That is to say, I am pretty confident that I know where it was. But many people disagree with me about it. So right on the edge of the excavation, there is a beautiful archway and it leads into the edge of a space.

Which very awkwardly, the Bourbons thought it was a basilica. And then we decided it wasn't a basilica. So it became the so-called basilica. So it was a sort of non-space with a, this is what it isn't name.

Which very awkwardly, the Bourbons thought it was a basilica. And then we decided it wasn't a basilica. So it became the so-called basilica. So it was a sort of non-space with a, this is what it isn't name.

And I'm confident that must be the forum because an arch typically leads, and not only is there just one arch, there's another corresponding one buried in the edge of the material on the other side. So a double arch leading into a space, for my money, is a forum. But we can't be confident of that. And colleagues disagree with me.

And I'm confident that must be the forum because an arch typically leads, and not only is there just one arch, there's another corresponding one buried in the edge of the material on the other side. So a double arch leading into a space, for my money, is a forum. But we can't be confident of that. And colleagues disagree with me.

A basilica is essentially a meeting space for lots of people to meet in. We live with the myth that the Greeks and Romans lived an outdoor life, and they could do everything in the forum. No, even in antiquity, it rained. It snowed. There was bad weather. You have to have an inside space as well as an outside space. And not surprisingly, law courts need shelter.

A basilica is essentially a meeting space for lots of people to meet in. We live with the myth that the Greeks and Romans lived an outdoor life, and they could do everything in the forum. No, even in antiquity, it rained. It snowed. There was bad weather. You have to have an inside space as well as an outside space. And not surprisingly, law courts need shelter.

So mostly trials were held in the covered space called the basilica, which is a great portico. You could have several trials going on at the same time. And there's a lovely, lovely document preserved on a wooden tablet from Herculaneum recording a trial. And the trial was actually held in Rome. And it specifies which building in Rome, the Forum of Augustus, it would be held in, and exactly when.

So mostly trials were held in the covered space called the basilica, which is a great portico. You could have several trials going on at the same time. And there's a lovely, lovely document preserved on a wooden tablet from Herculaneum recording a trial. And the trial was actually held in Rome. And it specifies which building in Rome, the Forum of Augustus, it would be held in, and exactly when.

Which column in the forum, you know, the third column on the right, the praetor would hear the case. So you can expect in a basilica to find everything happening and not just legal cases. There will have been meetings of all sorts. So the basilica is the throbbing heart of an ancient city. And we do have the basilica of Herculaneum.

Which column in the forum, you know, the third column on the right, the praetor would hear the case. So you can expect in a basilica to find everything happening and not just legal cases. There will have been meetings of all sorts. So the basilica is the throbbing heart of an ancient city. And we do have the basilica of Herculaneum.

We've only excavated the edge of it, but the Bourbons tunneled the rest of it, and they did a very nice ground plan, and it's completely convincing, and they found fantastic inscriptions there. So we know where the Basilica was, and it's right by the fort.

We've only excavated the edge of it, but the Bourbons tunneled the rest of it, and they did a very nice ground plan, and it's completely convincing, and they found fantastic inscriptions there. So we know where the Basilica was, and it's right by the fort.

That is completely right. And you asked me the wrong question because I've dedicated too much of my life to trying to understand this society and how these sites can actually help you to understand the society. When I first started working on Pompeii, and Herculaneum. My first book about it all was Pompeii and Herculaneum.

That is completely right. And you asked me the wrong question because I've dedicated too much of my life to trying to understand this society and how these sites can actually help you to understand the society. When I first started working on Pompeii, and Herculaneum. My first book about it all was Pompeii and Herculaneum.

What I wanted to understand was, can you get an idea of the full spectrum of the inhabitants from the richest to the poorest? I set about it by looking at the full spectrum of places to live. Let's call them houses, but some are just flats from richest to poorest.

What I wanted to understand was, can you get an idea of the full spectrum of the inhabitants from the richest to the poorest? I set about it by looking at the full spectrum of places to live. Let's call them houses, but some are just flats from richest to poorest.

I've reached the conclusion in the end, it's even more complicated than that because even the richest houses contained poor people because they had tenants and they had slaves. In the biggest houses, everything is happening. In the littlest houses, very little is happening and they are relatively poor.

I've reached the conclusion in the end, it's even more complicated than that because even the richest houses contained poor people because they had tenants and they had slaves. In the biggest houses, everything is happening. In the littlest houses, very little is happening and they are relatively poor.

And one thing that fascinated me was, you know, the tourist wants to go into the big houses with the famous frescoes and lovely mosaic floors and even statues and so on and large impressive rooms. Yeah, but what about the little ones? And the thing that was striking me was that it's not just the big ones that have frescoes and mosaics and so on.

And one thing that fascinated me was, you know, the tourist wants to go into the big houses with the famous frescoes and lovely mosaic floors and even statues and so on and large impressive rooms. Yeah, but what about the little ones? And the thing that was striking me was that it's not just the big ones that have frescoes and mosaics and so on.

Really quite modest little houses have their fancy little bits and the sort of language that they use, the things that make a house seem impressive. One thing is you look in from the door and you get a vista.

Really quite modest little houses have their fancy little bits and the sort of language that they use, the things that make a house seem impressive. One thing is you look in from the door and you get a vista.

And in the big houses, you get a vista through the doorway, through the entrance hall of the atrium, through the tablinum, the public reception space beyond it, through into the garden beyond. And you get an infinitely receding vista in the grand houses. in the little houses. You could have a vista too. You can look through the door. My favourite is the house of Neptune and Amphitrite.

And in the big houses, you get a vista through the doorway, through the entrance hall of the atrium, through the tablinum, the public reception space beyond it, through into the garden beyond. And you get an infinitely receding vista in the grand houses. in the little houses. You could have a vista too. You can look through the door. My favourite is the house of Neptune and Amphitrite.

And you look through the door, you look through the rather little entrance hall, the rather little, to blind them there, and there in the back is the tiny little garden. And on the back wall of the garden, they've made a glorious mosaic that gives the house its name. The god Neptune with his trident and his wife Amphitrite. That bright blue and yellow one, which is so striking.

And you look through the door, you look through the rather little entrance hall, the rather little, to blind them there, and there in the back is the tiny little garden. And on the back wall of the garden, they've made a glorious mosaic that gives the house its name. The god Neptune with his trident and his wife Amphitrite. That bright blue and yellow one, which is so striking.

It is one of the most... It's striking images in all Herculaneum. And it's in a very modest house. I didn't know that. I didn't know it wasn't in a villa. And it really sells it, doesn't it? You think, wow, these people had money. And then you think, come on, measure it up. This is not big. That little garden has to serve a double function because it's the outdoor dining room at the same time.

It is one of the most... It's striking images in all Herculaneum. And it's in a very modest house. I didn't know that. I didn't know it wasn't in a villa. And it really sells it, doesn't it? You think, wow, these people had money. And then you think, come on, measure it up. This is not big. That little garden has to serve a double function because it's the outdoor dining room at the same time.

And they've got a triclinium, a space with three pouches where you can lie just under the mosaic. But it's only... It's not even 10 meters wide. It's just crammed in. And I love the way that they all have a slice of the good life. And of course, there are those who have zero slice of the good life.

And they've got a triclinium, a space with three pouches where you can lie just under the mosaic. But it's only... It's not even 10 meters wide. It's just crammed in. And I love the way that they all have a slice of the good life. And of course, there are those who have zero slice of the good life.

But very often that can be explained by the fact they didn't even own the houses because there are a lot of tenants there. They're really rich. They own little shops, little flats, and so on. They may have farms in the countryside that bring them in income, but they have properties in the town. Very often, around the big house, there is this sort of penumbra of little places that

But very often that can be explained by the fact they didn't even own the houses because there are a lot of tenants there. They're really rich. They own little shops, little flats, and so on. They may have farms in the countryside that bring them in income, but they have properties in the town. Very often, around the big house, there is this sort of penumbra of little places that

which they make good money out of. We know that even Cicero made money out of flats. He said, even the rats are deserting my flats. They're in such a bad condition. So this is why the smallest places may have the least decoration. It's because the owner has decided, I'm not going to pay for decoration here.

which they make good money out of. We know that even Cicero made money out of flats. He said, even the rats are deserting my flats. They're in such a bad condition. So this is why the smallest places may have the least decoration. It's because the owner has decided, I'm not going to pay for decoration here.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I try to avoid calling them the middle class because it suddenly takes you to the Industrial Revolution and all sorts of inappropriate things. But the people in the middle, who are either the richest or the poorest, are really important. to remember that antiquity invents citizenship. A city has citizens, and the citizens aren't just the stinking rich.

I try to avoid calling them the middle class because it suddenly takes you to the Industrial Revolution and all sorts of inappropriate things. But the people in the middle, who are either the richest or the poorest, are really important. to remember that antiquity invents citizenship. A city has citizens, and the citizens aren't just the stinking rich.

Sorry, the stinking rich may be the magistrates, they may be the generals, they may be the top of the society. There's a whole society. The important thing about citizens is they're free men. And the real poor are the slaves. They're the ones who suffer. And so quite a relatively poor citizen. Yeah, but he's free. He has some pride. So I think you've got a whole range of citizens.

Sorry, the stinking rich may be the magistrates, they may be the generals, they may be the top of the society. There's a whole society. The important thing about citizens is they're free men. And the real poor are the slaves. They're the ones who suffer. And so quite a relatively poor citizen. Yeah, but he's free. He has some pride. So I think you've got a whole range of citizens.

And these citizens, and one of the most fascinating things is that the slave could become a citizen. He could be given his freedom and citizenship. And they're very anxious to show that they belong to this society of citizens. They matter. What I'm seeing is not just a society of an elite. There is an elite, of course. The wealth of the richest is unbelievable. But the prosperity...

And these citizens, and one of the most fascinating things is that the slave could become a citizen. He could be given his freedom and citizenship. And they're very anxious to show that they belong to this society of citizens. They matter. What I'm seeing is not just a society of an elite. There is an elite, of course. The wealth of the richest is unbelievable. But the prosperity...

The generalized prosperity of a whole broad stratum underneath them. That's what makes Pompeii and Herculaneum so amazing.

The generalized prosperity of a whole broad stratum underneath them. That's what makes Pompeii and Herculaneum so amazing.

They really do, yes. There's a terrible passage of Cicero in which he's talking about how to be a perfect gentleman. And he says, there are some trades that are really illiberal. They don't talk about gentlemen. They talk about free men, the things that are suitable for a freeborn person. And he says, effectively, butchers and bakers and candlestick makers, the people who run pubs,

They really do, yes. There's a terrible passage of Cicero in which he's talking about how to be a perfect gentleman. And he says, there are some trades that are really illiberal. They don't talk about gentlemen. They talk about free men, the things that are suitable for a freeborn person. And he says, effectively, butchers and bakers and candlestick makers, the people who run pubs,

even builders and fullers the people who clean clothes and just these are illiberal trades okay so the roman elite may have looked down on them but they didn't look down on themselves they were very anxious to prove to the roman elite no we can't too

even builders and fullers the people who clean clothes and just these are illiberal trades okay so the roman elite may have looked down on them but they didn't look down on themselves they were very anxious to prove to the roman elite no we can't too

Yeah. The way I put it is, it's like seeing with two eyes. If you see just with Pompeii, you have no perspective. If you've got Pompeii and Herculaneum, like eyes, they're quite close together. but they're not exactly the same perspective. And it just gives depth to your view of the ancient world.

Yeah. The way I put it is, it's like seeing with two eyes. If you see just with Pompeii, you have no perspective. If you've got Pompeii and Herculaneum, like eyes, they're quite close together. but they're not exactly the same perspective. And it just gives depth to your view of the ancient world.

People can get confused about what villa means. And I remember years ago, an architect came to me and he said, I want to reconstruct a Roman villa. And after I talked to him for a bit, I said, ah, you mean a townhouse, a domus? And he said, what's the difference? And I said, oh, it's very simple. A villa is out of the city. A domus is in the city.

People can get confused about what villa means. And I remember years ago, an architect came to me and he said, I want to reconstruct a Roman villa. And after I talked to him for a bit, I said, ah, you mean a townhouse, a domus? And he said, what's the difference? And I said, oh, it's very simple. A villa is out of the city. A domus is in the city.

So there's a technical distinction, and a villa is to do with farming and so on. And actually, a farmhouse, they call them villas too, right? So there is a contrast between you. The grandest houses out in the country can be very much bigger than the grandest houses in the town. There's more space. But actually, the Roman elite crisscrossed that boundary. That's one of the most amazing things.

So there's a technical distinction, and a villa is to do with farming and so on. And actually, a farmhouse, they call them villas too, right? So there is a contrast between you. The grandest houses out in the country can be very much bigger than the grandest houses in the town. There's more space. But actually, the Roman elite crisscrossed that boundary. That's one of the most amazing things.

And they built what were effectively villas and have much of the character of great villas outside. They built them in the city. And along the south sea wall of Herculaneum is a series of really grand houses. One, two, three, four, five, half a dozen unbelievably grand houses. And by South Wall, that would have been overlooking the Bay of Naples. And I think there's a magic moment that happens.

And they built what were effectively villas and have much of the character of great villas outside. They built them in the city. And along the south sea wall of Herculaneum is a series of really grand houses. One, two, three, four, five, half a dozen unbelievably grand houses. And by South Wall, that would have been overlooking the Bay of Naples. And I think there's a magic moment that happens.

Because up to a certain period, when you're back in the days of the social wars in the early 1st century BC, what are walls for? For defence. What do you do with your walls? You have to keep a whole strip, a broad strip of land, free behind the walls so that the troops can move up and down. At a certain point, it becomes absolutely clear there are going to be no more such wars.

Because up to a certain period, when you're back in the days of the social wars in the early 1st century BC, what are walls for? For defence. What do you do with your walls? You have to keep a whole strip, a broad strip of land, free behind the walls so that the troops can move up and down. At a certain point, it becomes absolutely clear there are going to be no more such wars.

And really, Roman conquest should mark that moment. But even more so, with the victory of Augustus, it creates a sense of, right, civil wars are over. We're not going to face any more invasions. We can forget about the defensive function of our wars.

And really, Roman conquest should mark that moment. But even more so, with the victory of Augustus, it creates a sense of, right, civil wars are over. We're not going to face any more invasions. We can forget about the defensive function of our wars.

And the great benefactor of Herculaneum, Nonius Balbus, whose statue is proudly outside the sea wall, an inscription says, I restored the walls of the city. But he didn't just restore the walls of the city. He converted all the area behind them, which was a military zone, into potential for expansion. And I imagine Nonius Balbus sort of letting his mates have it.

And the great benefactor of Herculaneum, Nonius Balbus, whose statue is proudly outside the sea wall, an inscription says, I restored the walls of the city. But he didn't just restore the walls of the city. He converted all the area behind them, which was a military zone, into potential for expansion. And I imagine Nonius Balbus sort of letting his mates have it.

You can have this one, you can have that one. And that gives them enormous urban space to move into. And there's wonderful houses like the House of the Stags and the House of Mosaic Atrium. that are built right up to the seawall can use the potential of land that has never had houses on it before. It's open land.

You can have this one, you can have that one. And that gives them enormous urban space to move into. And there's wonderful houses like the House of the Stags and the House of Mosaic Atrium. that are built right up to the seawall can use the potential of land that has never had houses on it before. It's open land.

So they can have glorious gardens with fountains and statues coming up to the wall with the knockout view of the Bay of Naples.

So they can have glorious gardens with fountains and statues coming up to the wall with the knockout view of the Bay of Naples.

So there are half a dozen real wow opportunities along those walls. And that's what gives the site the reputation as something of a resort. It's beyond a resort. However many millions people pay nowadays for the house with the sea view, they're another level above it.

So there are half a dozen real wow opportunities along those walls. And that's what gives the site the reputation as something of a resort. It's beyond a resort. However many millions people pay nowadays for the house with the sea view, they're another level above it.

One of the extraordinary things is that though they're so close together and close to the same volcano, The effects of the eruption are significantly different in the two places. And that's part of what gives you that deeper perspective.

One of the extraordinary things is that though they're so close together and close to the same volcano, The effects of the eruption are significantly different in the two places. And that's part of what gives you that deeper perspective.

But I like it when you refer to the everyday people doing their fishing as if that was a different world from the world of the rich. But one of the fascinating things about the frescoes that they put up is a favorite thing is a view, a sea view with fishermen going about their business in little boats. And here's a little man with a donkey walking along the shore and so on.

But I like it when you refer to the everyday people doing their fishing as if that was a different world from the world of the rich. But one of the fascinating things about the frescoes that they put up is a favorite thing is a view, a sea view with fishermen going about their business in little boats. And here's a little man with a donkey walking along the shore and so on.

And for them, that is part of life. And that's part of beautiful life, looking out over human activity. So they will have loved that part of the view too.

And for them, that is part of life. And that's part of beautiful life, looking out over human activity. So they will have loved that part of the view too.

And it's a correct sequel, because as you go along those wonderful houses that are like villas along the sea wall, you move straight into the Villa of the Papyri. They're is a tiny gap between the last of the great houses with a magnificent bathhouse that came out in the new excavations. Really amazing. And then there's a small gap and then the Villa of the Bari starts.

And it's a correct sequel, because as you go along those wonderful houses that are like villas along the sea wall, you move straight into the Villa of the Papyri. They're is a tiny gap between the last of the great houses with a magnificent bathhouse that came out in the new excavations. Really amazing. And then there's a small gap and then the Villa of the Bari starts.

If only we'd found the walls, I would be 100% certain. And Mary Beard once said to me, Andrew, how do you know it's a villa? How do you know where the walls are? And I said, I can't prove it until we find the walls. But it seems highly probable that the walls lie between those grand houses that are villas and the Villa of the Papyri. And the Villa of the Bari just sets another standard.

If only we'd found the walls, I would be 100% certain. And Mary Beard once said to me, Andrew, how do you know it's a villa? How do you know where the walls are? And I said, I can't prove it until we find the walls. But it seems highly probable that the walls lie between those grand houses that are villas and the Villa of the Papyri. And the Villa of the Bari just sets another standard.

It is truly amazing because impressive those houses may have been. You are into the sort of league that is only possible when you belong to the highest Roman elite. So the villa has been extremely plausibly attributed to a character called Calpurnius Pisa. In Cicero's day... Okay, yeah, yeah. There's a character he really, really, really dislikes. And he wrote a speech against Piso in Pisonem.

It is truly amazing because impressive those houses may have been. You are into the sort of league that is only possible when you belong to the highest Roman elite. So the villa has been extremely plausibly attributed to a character called Calpurnius Pisa. In Cicero's day... Okay, yeah, yeah. There's a character he really, really, really dislikes. And he wrote a speech against Piso in Pisonem.

And he mocks Piso for all sorts of things. The dusty busts of his ancestors on the walls and so on. And he mocks him for having a tame philosopher. A philosopher called Philodemus, who's an Epicurean. The Villa of the Papyri. Those amazing papyri. And wouldn't it be wonderful to read some more? And we will read some more.

And he mocks Piso for all sorts of things. The dusty busts of his ancestors on the walls and so on. And he mocks him for having a tame philosopher. A philosopher called Philodemus, who's an Epicurean. The Villa of the Papyri. Those amazing papyri. And wouldn't it be wonderful to read some more? And we will read some more.

Because in Herculaneum, if you'd like me to elaborate on this, of course, in Herculaneum, you're under a pyroclastic flow which covers everything in what's initially gas and dust, but sets into rock. Whereas Pompeii is covered with these tiny little pumice pebbles. That's just a weirdness of how a volcano works. You know, there's a third possible effect, which is a lava flow.

Because in Herculaneum, if you'd like me to elaborate on this, of course, in Herculaneum, you're under a pyroclastic flow which covers everything in what's initially gas and dust, but sets into rock. Whereas Pompeii is covered with these tiny little pumice pebbles. That's just a weirdness of how a volcano works. You know, there's a third possible effect, which is a lava flow.

And I am prepared to make an enormous bet on what the next papyrus they read will prove to be. It'll be work. who was a protégé of Calpurnius Pison. An extraordinary number, not all, but a majority of the papyri that have been read are works by Philodemus. Not only that, but there are as many as three copies of the same work by Philodemus.

And I am prepared to make an enormous bet on what the next papyrus they read will prove to be. It'll be work. who was a protégé of Calpurnius Pison. An extraordinary number, not all, but a majority of the papyri that have been read are works by Philodemus. Not only that, but there are as many as three copies of the same work by Philodemus.

Ooh, but the author would have three copies of his work on his shelves.

Ooh, but the author would have three copies of his work on his shelves.

Yeah, enormous popularity. And in that period of the first century before, the first century after, it was a tussle between the Epicureans and the Stoics of what is the right philosophy to see you through life. Let's not go into the details, except to say that obviously from the name, we associate Epicurean with good living.

Yeah, enormous popularity. And in that period of the first century before, the first century after, it was a tussle between the Epicureans and the Stoics of what is the right philosophy to see you through life. Let's not go into the details, except to say that obviously from the name, we associate Epicurean with good living.

Whereas Stoicism is about duty and service, Epicureanism, it isn't really about enjoyment, but it's about escaping from false fears. False fears that the gods are going to do terrible things to you. False ambitions that you try to rise too high. And Piso, Calpurnius Piso, he was a consul. He had risen very high indeed. And he needed his tame philosopher to tell him, calm down, chill out.

Whereas Stoicism is about duty and service, Epicureanism, it isn't really about enjoyment, but it's about escaping from false fears. False fears that the gods are going to do terrible things to you. False ambitions that you try to rise too high. And Piso, Calpurnius Piso, he was a consul. He had risen very high indeed. And he needed his tame philosopher to tell him, calm down, chill out.

Time to chill. Come and let's discuss business. atomic theory. No, I wish he had discussed atomic theory. Unfortunately, Philodemus was more interested in the good life than atomic theory, which is the other great thing that the Epicureans do. The fact that all those papyri point to Calpurnia spicer is then reinforced because Caesar's father-in-law is not the only one of the family.

Time to chill. Come and let's discuss business. atomic theory. No, I wish he had discussed atomic theory. Unfortunately, Philodemus was more interested in the good life than atomic theory, which is the other great thing that the Epicureans do. The fact that all those papyri point to Calpurnia spicer is then reinforced because Caesar's father-in-law is not the only one of the family.

In the early empire, they have a really important family with several branches. One of them is a major advisor of Augustus and an advisor of Tiberius. I'm pretty sure that he's the guy who was the definitive inhabitant of that house. Why? Because a portrait bust of him was found. How do we know it was him?

In the early empire, they have a really important family with several branches. One of them is a major advisor of Augustus and an advisor of Tiberius. I'm pretty sure that he's the guy who was the definitive inhabitant of that house. Why? Because a portrait bust of him was found. How do we know it was him?

Because he also built a really rather splendid building in North Italy, a place called Vellea. And there, his portrait bust has an inscription saying Calpurnius Pisa, right? So you've got a ringer, you've got the face, you've got the name, and you've got... the Epicurean Library.

Because he also built a really rather splendid building in North Italy, a place called Vellea. And there, his portrait bust has an inscription saying Calpurnius Pisa, right? So you've got a ringer, you've got the face, you've got the name, and you've got... the Epicurean Library.

I'll tell you that story, but I want to go back to the past. Because you're absolutely right in your recital of famous figures from the Greek past, but also Romans who must be family members. You say, was it Scipio? And there's another. Is it Seneca? No, of course it isn't. Seneca. Seneca. It's got to be a family member.

I'll tell you that story, but I want to go back to the past. Because you're absolutely right in your recital of famous figures from the Greek past, but also Romans who must be family members. You say, was it Scipio? And there's another. Is it Seneca? No, of course it isn't. Seneca. Seneca. It's got to be a family member.

And that mercifully is what did not happen. We always think in terms of lava, of volcanoes. If something gets covered in lava, bye-bye. You won't see it again. It's become part of the rock. But this pyroclastic flow that covers Herculaneum is a very soft rock. And it's brilliant for preserving things really well, and preserving things including organic materials, wood especially.

And that mercifully is what did not happen. We always think in terms of lava, of volcanoes. If something gets covered in lava, bye-bye. You won't see it again. It's become part of the rock. But this pyroclastic flow that covers Herculaneum is a very soft rock. And it's brilliant for preserving things really well, and preserving things including organic materials, wood especially.

And they're presenting themselves as in the great line that goes back to great Greek generals. This is the sort of company we keep. We Calpurni. They are nothing if not ambitious. And so their papyri, too, are part of their ambitions. They're associating themselves with that extraordinary Greek world of so many achievements and of philosophy.

And they're presenting themselves as in the great line that goes back to great Greek generals. This is the sort of company we keep. We Calpurni. They are nothing if not ambitious. And so their papyri, too, are part of their ambitions. They're associating themselves with that extraordinary Greek world of so many achievements and of philosophy.

And it is the most extraordinary gift that we have those papyri surviving. And I think it's worth remembering that we don't have papyri surviving from the rest of the site. It's a great disappointment. I think there are one or two examples of fragments of papyri that are actually documentary papyri, but not works of literature and so on. And I'm really puzzled. Where have they gone?

And it is the most extraordinary gift that we have those papyri surviving. And I think it's worth remembering that we don't have papyri surviving from the rest of the site. It's a great disappointment. I think there are one or two examples of fragments of papyri that are actually documentary papyri, but not works of literature and so on. And I'm really puzzled. Where have they gone?

Grand Romans, they read literature. Don't tell me that they didn't have books too. So it's a bit of fluently good luck that some, because of where exactly it was, the way that the eruption affected it, maybe it was a lovely protected room, they looked after the papyri very well. They survived and other ones have not. So that makes them really, really exceptional.

Grand Romans, they read literature. Don't tell me that they didn't have books too. So it's a bit of fluently good luck that some, because of where exactly it was, the way that the eruption affected it, maybe it was a lovely protected room, they looked after the papyri very well. They survived and other ones have not. So that makes them really, really exceptional.

Hence, our desperate desire to read them. And we're talking about something like 800 scrolls still to read.

Hence, our desperate desire to read them. And we're talking about something like 800 scrolls still to read.

Well, it's a bit of a warning, isn't it? You're likely to find another copy of the last book by Philodemus that you published. But that, actually, if you're a papyrologist, that's tremendously good news. Because... You know what you're looking for. You know that even if it isn't exactly the same thing, if it's the same author, you know the sort of words he'll use. It'll help you read it.

Well, it's a bit of a warning, isn't it? You're likely to find another copy of the last book by Philodemus that you published. But that, actually, if you're a papyrologist, that's tremendously good news. Because... You know what you're looking for. You know that even if it isn't exactly the same thing, if it's the same author, you know the sort of words he'll use. It'll help you read it.

It'll make it a great deal easier. But if they were the sort of thing that people fantasize that they might discover, like my favorite one is the lost books of Tacitus, who hadn't even... Not the time of the eruption, but people like to imagine every lost work of ancient literature must somehow be there. Everyone nominates their favorite author.

It'll make it a great deal easier. But if they were the sort of thing that people fantasize that they might discover, like my favorite one is the lost books of Tacitus, who hadn't even... Not the time of the eruption, but people like to imagine every lost work of ancient literature must somehow be there. Everyone nominates their favorite author.

There were some Latin papyri, and there were some non-philosophical papyri, and I would love it if we found more of them, but... I'm a bit gloomy about it.

There were some Latin papyri, and there were some non-philosophical papyri, and I would love it if we found more of them, but... I'm a bit gloomy about it.

Yes, of course, we know much too much about how they died and much too little about how they lived. But I think it's one of the most exciting projects still to be done, and it's on the verge of being done, to use their skeletons to understand their lives and not just how they died. So we do know how they died.

Yes, of course, we know much too much about how they died and much too little about how they lived. But I think it's one of the most exciting projects still to be done, and it's on the verge of being done, to use their skeletons to understand their lives and not just how they died. So we do know how they died.

We can see very clearly that at Herculaneum, unlike Pompeii, they were caught in this superheated pyroclastic surge. And their bodies, their skeletons, show all signs of muscular contraction, which is exactly, apparently, in detail, what you find in victims of a house fire. And their fingers and their toes and their limbs all contract at the moment of death in a fire. It's not nice.

We can see very clearly that at Herculaneum, unlike Pompeii, they were caught in this superheated pyroclastic surge. And their bodies, their skeletons, show all signs of muscular contraction, which is exactly, apparently, in detail, what you find in victims of a house fire. And their fingers and their toes and their limbs all contract at the moment of death in a fire. It's not nice.

But let's get beyond how they died. How did they live? Yes. Because the story is all there. The story is in their teeth. Isotopic analysis will tell you, astonishingly, from looking at their teeth, what water they were drinking when the teeth were formed. And because teeth form at different stages in life, they can a bit follow their development. But above all, they say where you were born.

But let's get beyond how they died. How did they live? Yes. Because the story is all there. The story is in their teeth. Isotopic analysis will tell you, astonishingly, from looking at their teeth, what water they were drinking when the teeth were formed. And because teeth form at different stages in life, they can a bit follow their development. But above all, they say where you were born.

And to me, that is a project that needs to be done and we need to understand. We've got over 300 skeletons from Herculaneum. And potentially, by looking at their teeth, we can say where they come from, which means were they born in Herculaneum? The water of Herculaneum is very, very distinctive because a volcanic thing is very high in chlorine. So you know a Herculaneum-born tooth.

And to me, that is a project that needs to be done and we need to understand. We've got over 300 skeletons from Herculaneum. And potentially, by looking at their teeth, we can say where they come from, which means were they born in Herculaneum? The water of Herculaneum is very, very distinctive because a volcanic thing is very high in chlorine. So you know a Herculaneum-born tooth.

We know that a lot of them came to Herculaneum through slavery. It could be a most amazing window into the impact of slavery in the high empire on the site. But my guess is that you would find the majority of them were of non-Italian origin. And beyond that, there's the DNA.

We know that a lot of them came to Herculaneum through slavery. It could be a most amazing window into the impact of slavery in the high empire on the site. But my guess is that you would find the majority of them were of non-Italian origin. And beyond that, there's the DNA.

And we're now at a stage where we can actually extract the DNA and read the DNA and say a lot about the relationships between different skeletons. Are these family members? Often when you find a group of people who died together, you attribute a family relationship.

And we're now at a stage where we can actually extract the DNA and read the DNA and say a lot about the relationships between different skeletons. Are these family members? Often when you find a group of people who died together, you attribute a family relationship.

But DNA work is beginning to show that not necessarily family members, because in the horror of an eruption, you cling to almost anyone. So I believe that that is going to be a scientific discovery that's as big as the reading of the papyri.

But DNA work is beginning to show that not necessarily family members, because in the horror of an eruption, you cling to almost anyone. So I believe that that is going to be a scientific discovery that's as big as the reading of the papyri.

Yes, it's location, location, location. Just a tiny difference, but it's marginally closer to the crater and it happens to be in a slightly different to the west of the crater rather than the south of the crater. And just as the eruption happened, imagine the enormous, not only the enormous force of an eruption, but the enormous randomness.

Yes, it's location, location, location. Just a tiny difference, but it's marginally closer to the crater and it happens to be in a slightly different to the west of the crater rather than the south of the crater. And just as the eruption happened, imagine the enormous, not only the enormous force of an eruption, but the enormous randomness.

You're absolutely right. Ten years ago, I wrote a book about Herculaneum. And I'm now trying... to update it for the second edition. And as I do so, I have the appalling prospect that in another 10 years, it'll be out of date again. But that's good. We want to carry on learning exciting new things from this amazing site.

You're absolutely right. Ten years ago, I wrote a book about Herculaneum. And I'm now trying... to update it for the second edition. And as I do so, I have the appalling prospect that in another 10 years, it'll be out of date again. But that's good. We want to carry on learning exciting new things from this amazing site.

You've got great swirling clouds of heaven knows what happening, changing through time. And what the experts say, and the experts are people who come from Iceland, which I'm really interested in, because you can see volcanoes in action in Iceland. And they know that you have all sorts of different effects.

You've got great swirling clouds of heaven knows what happening, changing through time. And what the experts say, and the experts are people who come from Iceland, which I'm really interested in, because you can see volcanoes in action in Iceland. And they know that you have all sorts of different effects.

And they worked out that Herculaneum is at the beginning of the eruption, probably only 12 hours into the eruption, when it's covered in its flow. Pompeii is another 12 hours later. So different things are happening by the time that Pompeii is overwhelmed.

And they worked out that Herculaneum is at the beginning of the eruption, probably only 12 hours into the eruption, when it's covered in its flow. Pompeii is another 12 hours later. So different things are happening by the time that Pompeii is overwhelmed.

It's the earlier stage of the same discovery story. In my view, archaeology is very closely linked to politics. You can't do archaeology without big money. Big money means politics. And it's certainly the arrival of a new Spanish dynasty in the south of Italy that drives this discovery. But they, the Bourbons who discovered it, also, they created a myth about it.

It's the earlier stage of the same discovery story. In my view, archaeology is very closely linked to politics. You can't do archaeology without big money. Big money means politics. And it's certainly the arrival of a new Spanish dynasty in the south of Italy that drives this discovery. But they, the Bourbons who discovered it, also, they created a myth about it.

They created a myth of a site that had been lost forever, entirely forgotten, and that they were the first to expose it. And one of the things we've discovered working in Herculaneum, exploring tunnels that had been explored by the excavators, is that there is material that goes back to the Middle Ages. People have been poking around, and of course in antiquity they were poking around.

They created a myth of a site that had been lost forever, entirely forgotten, and that they were the first to expose it. And one of the things we've discovered working in Herculaneum, exploring tunnels that had been explored by the excavators, is that there is material that goes back to the Middle Ages. People have been poking around, and of course in antiquity they were poking around.

I think it's better to think of it in terms of these places were never forgotten. No one had the sort of absurd resource and the absurd ambition to try and dig it up again. After all, in antiquity, in 79, they could have... The Roman emperor, he had resource. He could have said, let us excavate these sites and restore them to their ancient glory. No, the closed book.

I think it's better to think of it in terms of these places were never forgotten. No one had the sort of absurd resource and the absurd ambition to try and dig it up again. After all, in antiquity, in 79, they could have... The Roman emperor, he had resource. He could have said, let us excavate these sites and restore them to their ancient glory. No, the closed book.

That was a decision not to recover them and rediscover. So they only sent little tunnels because an ancient city is full of wealth. Marble, lots of marble, like the former Pompeii. Silver. Silver. Silver treasures. That's what you're really after. Yeah, marble, you could make more marbles. Bronze is more valuable than marble. Bronze is good stuff. But silver's better, gold.

That was a decision not to recover them and rediscover. So they only sent little tunnels because an ancient city is full of wealth. Marble, lots of marble, like the former Pompeii. Silver. Silver. Silver treasures. That's what you're really after. Yeah, marble, you could make more marbles. Bronze is more valuable than marble. Bronze is good stuff. But silver's better, gold.

So they tunneled away looking for that. But they didn't bother to recover the city. There are lots of other cities in antiquity that were destroyed and rebuilt, like Antioch. Antioch was completely destroyed in the 5th century. And Justinian decided, we're going to remake it. And he made a better one.

So they tunneled away looking for that. But they didn't bother to recover the city. There are lots of other cities in antiquity that were destroyed and rebuilt, like Antioch. Antioch was completely destroyed in the 5th century. And Justinian decided, we're going to remake it. And he made a better one.

But yes, yeah. So you can remake an ancient city. They decided to leave Pompeii and Herculaneum. It was like they'd met these forces of nature that simply overawed them and they weren't going to touch it. So what I'm saying is that it was never forgotten. You know, the stories of the destruction were some of the most vivid stories told from antiquity.

But yes, yeah. So you can remake an ancient city. They decided to leave Pompeii and Herculaneum. It was like they'd met these forces of nature that simply overawed them and they weren't going to touch it. So what I'm saying is that it was never forgotten. You know, the stories of the destruction were some of the most vivid stories told from antiquity.

Pliny's amazing letters describing the eruption. Wow! Imagine somebody who happened to be a brilliant writer, a brilliant journalist, being there at the moment and being able to write it all down. So they knew about it. They didn't forget it. And future generations read Pliny's letters and they thought, wouldn't it be amazing to rediscover Pompeii and Herculaneum?

Pliny's amazing letters describing the eruption. Wow! Imagine somebody who happened to be a brilliant writer, a brilliant journalist, being there at the moment and being able to write it all down. So they knew about it. They didn't forget it. And future generations read Pliny's letters and they thought, wouldn't it be amazing to rediscover Pompeii and Herculaneum?

Yeah. In a funny way, it's built into it. You can't do it without myth. Pompeii, above all, is the great mythical site. People just create myths around it all the time. Every single discovery has to be over-interpreted and turned into something larger than life. Herculaneum, as you rightly point out, doesn't quite have that public impact that Pompeii has. It isn't the same sort of myth generator.

Yeah. In a funny way, it's built into it. You can't do it without myth. Pompeii, above all, is the great mythical site. People just create myths around it all the time. Every single discovery has to be over-interpreted and turned into something larger than life. Herculaneum, as you rightly point out, doesn't quite have that public impact that Pompeii has. It isn't the same sort of myth generator.

One of the things that fascinates me is the way that it was once, because Herculaneum was discovered before Pompeii by these Spanish kings, the Bourbons. It's about 10 years earlier. The official date of excavation in Pompeii is 1748. 1738 is the start of exploration of Herculaneum. For that reason, when the Bourbons published their results, results from Herculaneum and Pompeii.

One of the things that fascinates me is the way that it was once, because Herculaneum was discovered before Pompeii by these Spanish kings, the Bourbons. It's about 10 years earlier. The official date of excavation in Pompeii is 1748. 1738 is the start of exploration of Herculaneum. For that reason, when the Bourbons published their results, results from Herculaneum and Pompeii.

They called it the Antiquities of Herculaneum because Herculaneum was the big name. And everyone had been getting overexcited about Herculaneum. And it takes time for Pompeii to overhaul Herculaneum and become the place. And I think there are technical reasons for that too. And that is that it's so much easier to excavate in Pompeii than Herculaneum.

They called it the Antiquities of Herculaneum because Herculaneum was the big name. And everyone had been getting overexcited about Herculaneum. And it takes time for Pompeii to overhaul Herculaneum and become the place. And I think there are technical reasons for that too. And that is that it's so much easier to excavate in Pompeii than Herculaneum.

It cost them enormous amounts to work on Herculaneum, and it seemed to be worth it because they were producing amazing results. You think of the Villa of Papyri.

It cost them enormous amounts to work on Herculaneum, and it seemed to be worth it because they were producing amazing results. You think of the Villa of Papyri.

But you think of these bronzes as well as the papyri. And, wow, yeah, this is worth the digging. But then you get to Pompeii, and you don't have to hack through solid rock. You don't have to go down the same depth. Herculaneum is as much as 20 metres below the surface. That is serious rock. serious excavation, serious mining. They used engineers.

But you think of these bronzes as well as the papyri. And, wow, yeah, this is worth the digging. But then you get to Pompeii, and you don't have to hack through solid rock. You don't have to go down the same depth. Herculaneum is as much as 20 metres below the surface. That is serious rock. serious excavation, serious mining. They used engineers.

It's not a work of archaeology, it's a work of engineers.

It's not a work of archaeology, it's a work of engineers.

Even to 30 metres high at that point, above sea level. And it beetles above you. And it really makes it feel like something preserved in aspic. And it is like that. So it's hard work excavating Herculaneum. Pompeii's a pushover. You just shovel away these pomace pebbles, the lapilli. Literally, a shovel is your main excavating tool. You need a wheelbarrow to take the stuff away, and you're going.

Even to 30 metres high at that point, above sea level. And it beetles above you. And it really makes it feel like something preserved in aspic. And it is like that. So it's hard work excavating Herculaneum. Pompeii's a pushover. You just shovel away these pomace pebbles, the lapilli. Literally, a shovel is your main excavating tool. You need a wheelbarrow to take the stuff away, and you're going.

The main excavations in Herculaneum in the modern period, done in the 1930s, were done with pneumatic drills. And you have to go through meters of solid stuff. It comes away rather nicely with a pneumatic drill. And it's a risk you can take because you know when you hit the archaeology and then you slow down a bit. But it's very easy to make mistakes. So yeah, this is a tough call.

The main excavations in Herculaneum in the modern period, done in the 1930s, were done with pneumatic drills. And you have to go through meters of solid stuff. It comes away rather nicely with a pneumatic drill. And it's a risk you can take because you know when you hit the archaeology and then you slow down a bit. But it's very easy to make mistakes. So yeah, this is a tough call.

So Pompeii, Pompeii's a pushover. Money for jam, and the stuff comes out and comes out. And effectively, Herculaneum is forgotten for a period between, let us say, 1780 or so, when Pompeii has become really the big name, to 1913.

So Pompeii, Pompeii's a pushover. Money for jam, and the stuff comes out and comes out. And effectively, Herculaneum is forgotten for a period between, let us say, 1780 or so, when Pompeii has become really the big name, to 1913.

But there's an earlier period, because for me, as a professor in Cambridge, it's really important that it was a professor from Cambridge who told the world Herculaneum is the place to work. A chap called Charles Wolstein. And he was an expert on Greek sculpture. That's up your street. And he knew that a load of Greek sculpture came from Herculaneum. And he was fascinated by it.

But there's an earlier period, because for me, as a professor in Cambridge, it's really important that it was a professor from Cambridge who told the world Herculaneum is the place to work. A chap called Charles Wolstein. And he was an expert on Greek sculpture. That's up your street. And he knew that a load of Greek sculpture came from Herculaneum. And he was fascinated by it.

And he led a campaign to excavate Herculaneum. And the first modern book about Herculaneum is his book, Pompeii, Past, Present and Future, I think. It's including an elaborate plan, technical plan, of how to excavate using modern techniques to get through this rock and so on.

And he led a campaign to excavate Herculaneum. And the first modern book about Herculaneum is his book, Pompeii, Past, Present and Future, I think. It's including an elaborate plan, technical plan, of how to excavate using modern techniques to get through this rock and so on.

And in 1908, he was on the brink of persuading the Italian government to allow an international project financed not just by Italy, but all sorts of nations, America. He was an American, though he was a professor in Cambridge. And he was putting together the funding in a really imaginative way. And the Italian government got cold feet.

And in 1908, he was on the brink of persuading the Italian government to allow an international project financed not just by Italy, but all sorts of nations, America. He was an American, though he was a professor in Cambridge. And he was putting together the funding in a really imaginative way. And the Italian government got cold feet.

The terrifying prospect of foreigners discovering their most important site. The Italian parliament votes against it, and they back right off. So that when a new superintendent is appointed by the fascists in the 1920s, Amadeo Maiuri. Wonderful character. He's very young. He's in his early 30s when he takes over. And he starts in Pompeii in 1924.

And by 1927, he's leading a campaign, we've got to excavate Herculaneum. Look at this book by the Cambridge professor Charles Wallstein. Herculaneum is actually more important than Pompeii. Its potential is higher than Pompeii. And in my view, he's still right. And that still remains the case. Pompeii is pretty well excavated. Only one third of it is unexcavated.

And in truth, it's the one third of it that's least likely to be interesting because it's closest to the walls where they had vineyards and so on and less activity there. Whereas Herculaneum, you've got at least two-thirds. Two-thirds. That's historical. And you're right on the edge of the great public center of the site.

And the irony is the modern town of Herculaneum is sitting right on top of the center of ancient Herculaneum, and we can't get at it. We can see the edge of it, the edge of the centre. We can see it's really, really important. And you can't get in without causing the houses above to collapse, which is why Maiori stopped where he stopped. There were too many technical problems.

Without actually demolishing modern Ercolano, you can't complete the excavation.

No, it's not a Roman town. It becomes a Roman town by conquest. The Bay of Naples is on a really interesting geographical point of what you could call cultural collision. Meetings are sometimes quite violent between different cultures. The south of Italy is colonized, if that's the right word for it. New cities are created by Greeks.

And Posidonia is the biggest city that is near the Bay of Naples, apart from Naples itself. So there is a massive Greek presence in that area. But it's also rather obstinately local. And it's hard to know what to call the locals. You can call them Oscans. It's Oscan, isn't it? Because Oscan is their language, which is very closely related to Latin, but not Latin and proudly not Latin, right? Yeah.

And, of course, a Roman presence, because the Romans were extremely interested in the Bay of Naples. And by the end of the 3rd century onwards, there are massive and military presence there. Both Pompeii and Herculaneum are in this sort of twilight zone between what are we? Are we local? Are we Greek? Are we Roman? We're a mixture of these things. So the very name of Herculaneum says Greek.

And the myth is it was founded by Hercules, the great hero, in his wanderings around the western Mediterranean. And I sometimes wish we could call it the city of Hercules because everyone knows Hercules and nobody can pronounce Herculaneum because there are too many syllables in it. And if only we called it the city of Hercules, which is what it means.

And so the ancient geographer Strabo says it was founded by Hercules, okay? That was the local myth. Really interestingly, we've looked desperately for any evidence, not of Hercules, of course. You don't expect mythology to show up in the archaeological record, but you might expect evidence of a presence back there in the Iron Age, in the 7th century, 6th century. Not a dicky bird.

It's a mystery. One day someone may be able to find something, but we can't go earlier than the third century. I don't think that means it was first founded in the third century. I don't find that credible. They were so convinced and they had the story. It was founded by Hercules. It was originally an Oskan city. And then the Romans arrived.

The Romans arrive in that traumatic period, which we call the social wars, which is when the allies of Rome, the Sox speaking ones, they rebel against Rome. Why? Because they have been fighting all the battles alongside the Romans. The Romans have been helping themselves, all the prophets of conquest, and saying to the Oscars, you can have Tup and Satanic. And the Oscars are really frustrated.

And they say, we want equal rights. Equal rights, citizenship. Come on, we're the same as you. The Romans say, no. And they say, right, we're going to fight for it. And the Romans defeat them, but they cave in. They get their citizenship. And that is the way that Rome then forward can expand. And it sets the model for expansion right across the empire. So Herculaneum was a rebel city.

Oh, we do know it was, didn't we? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, it's one of the earliest passages that mentions Herculaneum is a narrative. We only have a fragment of this, a narrative of the social war. And the Roman general arrives with his army, and he finds this guard post, a stronghold, between two rivers.

So the thing we know about Herculaneum was it was between two rivers, which would make it really easy to defend. We can't find the rivers. We know where one was. It's right on the edge of the site. We can't find the other, though. It must be just past the theatre, we think.

But the whole area, there will have been many rivers, because what you've got is volcanic flow coming down to the sea, which then gets riven by a series of watercourses, which create rivers through the soft toothed.

Absolutely. This is the paradox of living with a volcano. English people find it really hard to get their heads around. Why on earth did anyone live on the Bay of Naples? You have to take a page from Seneca, who, when there was a great earthquake a little before the eruption, and he was asked, and he was writing a work of science, He was asked, should we evacuate?

Is it too dangerous to live in this area? He said, look, nowhere is safe to live. And the truth is the whole west coast of Italy is volcanic. And Senec said, you know, it might blow anywhere. You can't be confident of the earth. So just stay then, he said. Just stay. And people do stay. around volcanoes because they are tremendously fertile. It's like you're living on fertilizer.

You can grow three crops a year instead of one crop a year. And in that mild atmosphere of the bay, it's just glorious.

No, no, no. It punches above its weight, doesn't it? It makes no sense to us that a town of, they say, 4,000 inhabitants. I say that's too many. I can't put them within the walls. I say 3,000 maximum. It could be 2,500. But it really doesn't matter. It's not a big... To us, it's...

not even a town, it's a big village in terms of size, but in terms of public amenities, in terms of how impressive it was. It's way, way up the list. And the truth is, in antiquity, Cities were small by our standards, of course, and they didn't have cities of 10 million. Only one city, Rome, of as many as 1 million. Most cities are in the 5 to 10 million range.

So, okay, even for antiquity, Herculaneum's not a big place, but it's a proud place. It's a rich place. It's a prosperous place. It's a place to be.

And Colchester doesn't do bad in terms of public monuments and so on. No, exactly. When the Romans make a town, it's impressive.

Well, of course, we have to assume that we do. Because nowhere else is preserved like Pompeii and Herculaneum are preserved. And so we look at the almost pathetic remains of most Roman cities. And we have to reconstruct what they were like. And we turn to Pompeii and Herculaneum. What if this rose to a few more stories? And of course, Pompeii gives you a model of one story.

You can see up to the top of the walls of the first story in Pompeii. Herculaneum gives you the second floor. So multi-story flats. Yeah, but if you've got an excavation that is as deep as 20 meters, of course, you're getting a great depth. The tallest building is the block of flats on the edge of the site. And there are bits of the third story surviving. So, you know, I've been up there.

I've looked down from a latrine on the third story. And it's an amazing experience. The truth is, I've done the same in Rome. I've stood on a fifth story in Rome, right under the capital line. There is a five-story building. block of flats that has survived so you know it's not impossible but because of the

nature and the detail of the preservation of these sites, we have to extrapolate from them to understand other cities. I think the danger is turning everywhere else into a Pompeii and a Herculaneum for the bits that are missing. Were Roman cities all following a similar formula? Yes. There are certain components you find again and again. Like the central forum, the main area?

You've got to have a central forum. You've got to have the public buildings around the forum. You've got to have a basilica, which in Herculaneum's case is really important, though we haven't excavated it. You've got to have a basilica, a senate house, civic buildings, temples, markets. And then you have the entertainment baths and amphitheatres and so on. Herculaneum has the full set.

Yet, though, okay, pretty well every Roman city has a selection of these elements, not necessarily all. They don't all have amphitheaters. And Herculaneum didn't have an amphitheater. Doesn't, okay. Pompeii does. though they don't all have everything, and they aren't all necessarily in the same relationship to each other. There are patterns, but there's endless variation on the patterns.

And so, one of the consequences is we don't know where the forum of Herculaneum was. That is to say, I am pretty confident that I know where it was. But many people disagree with me about it. So right on the edge of the excavation, there is a beautiful archway and it leads into the edge of a space.

Which very awkwardly, the Bourbons thought it was a basilica. And then we decided it wasn't a basilica. So it became the so-called basilica. So it was a sort of non-space with a, this is what it isn't name.

And I'm confident that must be the forum because an arch typically leads, and not only is there just one arch, there's another corresponding one buried in the edge of the material on the other side. So a double arch leading into a space, for my money, is a forum. But we can't be confident of that. And colleagues disagree with me.

A basilica is essentially a meeting space for lots of people to meet in. We live with the myth that the Greeks and Romans lived an outdoor life, and they could do everything in the forum. No, even in antiquity, it rained. It snowed. There was bad weather. You have to have an inside space as well as an outside space. And not surprisingly, law courts need shelter.

So mostly trials were held in the covered space called the basilica, which is a great portico. You could have several trials going on at the same time. And there's a lovely, lovely document preserved on a wooden tablet from Herculaneum recording a trial. And the trial was actually held in Rome. And it specifies which building in Rome, the Forum of Augustus, it would be held in, and exactly when.

Which column in the forum, you know, the third column on the right, the praetor would hear the case. So you can expect in a basilica to find everything happening and not just legal cases. There will have been meetings of all sorts. So the basilica is the throbbing heart of an ancient city. And we do have the basilica of Herculaneum.

We've only excavated the edge of it, but the Bourbons tunneled the rest of it, and they did a very nice ground plan, and it's completely convincing, and they found fantastic inscriptions there. So we know where the Basilica was, and it's right by the fort.

That is completely right. And you asked me the wrong question because I've dedicated too much of my life to trying to understand this society and how these sites can actually help you to understand the society. When I first started working on Pompeii, and Herculaneum. My first book about it all was Pompeii and Herculaneum.

What I wanted to understand was, can you get an idea of the full spectrum of the inhabitants from the richest to the poorest? I set about it by looking at the full spectrum of places to live. Let's call them houses, but some are just flats from richest to poorest.

I've reached the conclusion in the end, it's even more complicated than that because even the richest houses contained poor people because they had tenants and they had slaves. In the biggest houses, everything is happening. In the littlest houses, very little is happening and they are relatively poor.

And one thing that fascinated me was, you know, the tourist wants to go into the big houses with the famous frescoes and lovely mosaic floors and even statues and so on and large impressive rooms. Yeah, but what about the little ones? And the thing that was striking me was that it's not just the big ones that have frescoes and mosaics and so on.

Really quite modest little houses have their fancy little bits and the sort of language that they use, the things that make a house seem impressive. One thing is you look in from the door and you get a vista.

And in the big houses, you get a vista through the doorway, through the entrance hall of the atrium, through the tablinum, the public reception space beyond it, through into the garden beyond. And you get an infinitely receding vista in the grand houses. in the little houses. You could have a vista too. You can look through the door. My favourite is the house of Neptune and Amphitrite.

And you look through the door, you look through the rather little entrance hall, the rather little, to blind them there, and there in the back is the tiny little garden. And on the back wall of the garden, they've made a glorious mosaic that gives the house its name. The god Neptune with his trident and his wife Amphitrite. That bright blue and yellow one, which is so striking.

It is one of the most... It's striking images in all Herculaneum. And it's in a very modest house. I didn't know that. I didn't know it wasn't in a villa. And it really sells it, doesn't it? You think, wow, these people had money. And then you think, come on, measure it up. This is not big. That little garden has to serve a double function because it's the outdoor dining room at the same time.

And they've got a triclinium, a space with three pouches where you can lie just under the mosaic. But it's only... It's not even 10 meters wide. It's just crammed in. And I love the way that they all have a slice of the good life. And of course, there are those who have zero slice of the good life.

But very often that can be explained by the fact they didn't even own the houses because there are a lot of tenants there. They're really rich. They own little shops, little flats, and so on. They may have farms in the countryside that bring them in income, but they have properties in the town. Very often, around the big house, there is this sort of penumbra of little places that

which they make good money out of. We know that even Cicero made money out of flats. He said, even the rats are deserting my flats. They're in such a bad condition. So this is why the smallest places may have the least decoration. It's because the owner has decided, I'm not going to pay for decoration here.

Thank you.

I try to avoid calling them the middle class because it suddenly takes you to the Industrial Revolution and all sorts of inappropriate things. But the people in the middle, who are either the richest or the poorest, are really important. to remember that antiquity invents citizenship. A city has citizens, and the citizens aren't just the stinking rich.

Sorry, the stinking rich may be the magistrates, they may be the generals, they may be the top of the society. There's a whole society. The important thing about citizens is they're free men. And the real poor are the slaves. They're the ones who suffer. And so quite a relatively poor citizen. Yeah, but he's free. He has some pride. So I think you've got a whole range of citizens.

And these citizens, and one of the most fascinating things is that the slave could become a citizen. He could be given his freedom and citizenship. And they're very anxious to show that they belong to this society of citizens. They matter. What I'm seeing is not just a society of an elite. There is an elite, of course. The wealth of the richest is unbelievable. But the prosperity...

The generalized prosperity of a whole broad stratum underneath them. That's what makes Pompeii and Herculaneum so amazing.

They really do, yes. There's a terrible passage of Cicero in which he's talking about how to be a perfect gentleman. And he says, there are some trades that are really illiberal. They don't talk about gentlemen. They talk about free men, the things that are suitable for a freeborn person. And he says, effectively, butchers and bakers and candlestick makers, the people who run pubs,

even builders and fullers the people who clean clothes and just these are illiberal trades okay so the roman elite may have looked down on them but they didn't look down on themselves they were very anxious to prove to the roman elite no we can't too

Yeah. The way I put it is, it's like seeing with two eyes. If you see just with Pompeii, you have no perspective. If you've got Pompeii and Herculaneum, like eyes, they're quite close together. but they're not exactly the same perspective. And it just gives depth to your view of the ancient world.

People can get confused about what villa means. And I remember years ago, an architect came to me and he said, I want to reconstruct a Roman villa. And after I talked to him for a bit, I said, ah, you mean a townhouse, a domus? And he said, what's the difference? And I said, oh, it's very simple. A villa is out of the city. A domus is in the city.

So there's a technical distinction, and a villa is to do with farming and so on. And actually, a farmhouse, they call them villas too, right? So there is a contrast between you. The grandest houses out in the country can be very much bigger than the grandest houses in the town. There's more space. But actually, the Roman elite crisscrossed that boundary. That's one of the most amazing things.

And they built what were effectively villas and have much of the character of great villas outside. They built them in the city. And along the south sea wall of Herculaneum is a series of really grand houses. One, two, three, four, five, half a dozen unbelievably grand houses. And by South Wall, that would have been overlooking the Bay of Naples. And I think there's a magic moment that happens.

Because up to a certain period, when you're back in the days of the social wars in the early 1st century BC, what are walls for? For defence. What do you do with your walls? You have to keep a whole strip, a broad strip of land, free behind the walls so that the troops can move up and down. At a certain point, it becomes absolutely clear there are going to be no more such wars.

And really, Roman conquest should mark that moment. But even more so, with the victory of Augustus, it creates a sense of, right, civil wars are over. We're not going to face any more invasions. We can forget about the defensive function of our wars.

And the great benefactor of Herculaneum, Nonius Balbus, whose statue is proudly outside the sea wall, an inscription says, I restored the walls of the city. But he didn't just restore the walls of the city. He converted all the area behind them, which was a military zone, into potential for expansion. And I imagine Nonius Balbus sort of letting his mates have it.

You can have this one, you can have that one. And that gives them enormous urban space to move into. And there's wonderful houses like the House of the Stags and the House of Mosaic Atrium. that are built right up to the seawall can use the potential of land that has never had houses on it before. It's open land.

So they can have glorious gardens with fountains and statues coming up to the wall with the knockout view of the Bay of Naples.

So there are half a dozen real wow opportunities along those walls. And that's what gives the site the reputation as something of a resort. It's beyond a resort. However many millions people pay nowadays for the house with the sea view, they're another level above it.

One of the extraordinary things is that though they're so close together and close to the same volcano, The effects of the eruption are significantly different in the two places. And that's part of what gives you that deeper perspective.

But I like it when you refer to the everyday people doing their fishing as if that was a different world from the world of the rich. But one of the fascinating things about the frescoes that they put up is a favorite thing is a view, a sea view with fishermen going about their business in little boats. And here's a little man with a donkey walking along the shore and so on.

And for them, that is part of life. And that's part of beautiful life, looking out over human activity. So they will have loved that part of the view too.

And it's a correct sequel, because as you go along those wonderful houses that are like villas along the sea wall, you move straight into the Villa of the Papyri. They're is a tiny gap between the last of the great houses with a magnificent bathhouse that came out in the new excavations. Really amazing. And then there's a small gap and then the Villa of the Bari starts.

If only we'd found the walls, I would be 100% certain. And Mary Beard once said to me, Andrew, how do you know it's a villa? How do you know where the walls are? And I said, I can't prove it until we find the walls. But it seems highly probable that the walls lie between those grand houses that are villas and the Villa of the Papyri. And the Villa of the Bari just sets another standard.

It is truly amazing because impressive those houses may have been. You are into the sort of league that is only possible when you belong to the highest Roman elite. So the villa has been extremely plausibly attributed to a character called Calpurnius Pisa. In Cicero's day... Okay, yeah, yeah. There's a character he really, really, really dislikes. And he wrote a speech against Piso in Pisonem.

And he mocks Piso for all sorts of things. The dusty busts of his ancestors on the walls and so on. And he mocks him for having a tame philosopher. A philosopher called Philodemus, who's an Epicurean. The Villa of the Papyri. Those amazing papyri. And wouldn't it be wonderful to read some more? And we will read some more.

Because in Herculaneum, if you'd like me to elaborate on this, of course, in Herculaneum, you're under a pyroclastic flow which covers everything in what's initially gas and dust, but sets into rock. Whereas Pompeii is covered with these tiny little pumice pebbles. That's just a weirdness of how a volcano works. You know, there's a third possible effect, which is a lava flow.

And I am prepared to make an enormous bet on what the next papyrus they read will prove to be. It'll be work. who was a protégé of Calpurnius Pison. An extraordinary number, not all, but a majority of the papyri that have been read are works by Philodemus. Not only that, but there are as many as three copies of the same work by Philodemus.

Ooh, but the author would have three copies of his work on his shelves.

Yeah, enormous popularity. And in that period of the first century before, the first century after, it was a tussle between the Epicureans and the Stoics of what is the right philosophy to see you through life. Let's not go into the details, except to say that obviously from the name, we associate Epicurean with good living.

Whereas Stoicism is about duty and service, Epicureanism, it isn't really about enjoyment, but it's about escaping from false fears. False fears that the gods are going to do terrible things to you. False ambitions that you try to rise too high. And Piso, Calpurnius Piso, he was a consul. He had risen very high indeed. And he needed his tame philosopher to tell him, calm down, chill out.

Time to chill. Come and let's discuss business. atomic theory. No, I wish he had discussed atomic theory. Unfortunately, Philodemus was more interested in the good life than atomic theory, which is the other great thing that the Epicureans do. The fact that all those papyri point to Calpurnia spicer is then reinforced because Caesar's father-in-law is not the only one of the family.

In the early empire, they have a really important family with several branches. One of them is a major advisor of Augustus and an advisor of Tiberius. I'm pretty sure that he's the guy who was the definitive inhabitant of that house. Why? Because a portrait bust of him was found. How do we know it was him?

Because he also built a really rather splendid building in North Italy, a place called Vellea. And there, his portrait bust has an inscription saying Calpurnius Pisa, right? So you've got a ringer, you've got the face, you've got the name, and you've got... the Epicurean Library.

I'll tell you that story, but I want to go back to the past. Because you're absolutely right in your recital of famous figures from the Greek past, but also Romans who must be family members. You say, was it Scipio? And there's another. Is it Seneca? No, of course it isn't. Seneca. Seneca. It's got to be a family member.

And that mercifully is what did not happen. We always think in terms of lava, of volcanoes. If something gets covered in lava, bye-bye. You won't see it again. It's become part of the rock. But this pyroclastic flow that covers Herculaneum is a very soft rock. And it's brilliant for preserving things really well, and preserving things including organic materials, wood especially.

And they're presenting themselves as in the great line that goes back to great Greek generals. This is the sort of company we keep. We Calpurni. They are nothing if not ambitious. And so their papyri, too, are part of their ambitions. They're associating themselves with that extraordinary Greek world of so many achievements and of philosophy.

And it is the most extraordinary gift that we have those papyri surviving. And I think it's worth remembering that we don't have papyri surviving from the rest of the site. It's a great disappointment. I think there are one or two examples of fragments of papyri that are actually documentary papyri, but not works of literature and so on. And I'm really puzzled. Where have they gone?

Grand Romans, they read literature. Don't tell me that they didn't have books too. So it's a bit of fluently good luck that some, because of where exactly it was, the way that the eruption affected it, maybe it was a lovely protected room, they looked after the papyri very well. They survived and other ones have not. So that makes them really, really exceptional.

Hence, our desperate desire to read them. And we're talking about something like 800 scrolls still to read.

Well, it's a bit of a warning, isn't it? You're likely to find another copy of the last book by Philodemus that you published. But that, actually, if you're a papyrologist, that's tremendously good news. Because... You know what you're looking for. You know that even if it isn't exactly the same thing, if it's the same author, you know the sort of words he'll use. It'll help you read it.

It'll make it a great deal easier. But if they were the sort of thing that people fantasize that they might discover, like my favorite one is the lost books of Tacitus, who hadn't even... Not the time of the eruption, but people like to imagine every lost work of ancient literature must somehow be there. Everyone nominates their favorite author.

There were some Latin papyri, and there were some non-philosophical papyri, and I would love it if we found more of them, but... I'm a bit gloomy about it.

Yes, of course, we know much too much about how they died and much too little about how they lived. But I think it's one of the most exciting projects still to be done, and it's on the verge of being done, to use their skeletons to understand their lives and not just how they died. So we do know how they died.

We can see very clearly that at Herculaneum, unlike Pompeii, they were caught in this superheated pyroclastic surge. And their bodies, their skeletons, show all signs of muscular contraction, which is exactly, apparently, in detail, what you find in victims of a house fire. And their fingers and their toes and their limbs all contract at the moment of death in a fire. It's not nice.

But let's get beyond how they died. How did they live? Yes. Because the story is all there. The story is in their teeth. Isotopic analysis will tell you, astonishingly, from looking at their teeth, what water they were drinking when the teeth were formed. And because teeth form at different stages in life, they can a bit follow their development. But above all, they say where you were born.

And to me, that is a project that needs to be done and we need to understand. We've got over 300 skeletons from Herculaneum. And potentially, by looking at their teeth, we can say where they come from, which means were they born in Herculaneum? The water of Herculaneum is very, very distinctive because a volcanic thing is very high in chlorine. So you know a Herculaneum-born tooth.

We know that a lot of them came to Herculaneum through slavery. It could be a most amazing window into the impact of slavery in the high empire on the site. But my guess is that you would find the majority of them were of non-Italian origin. And beyond that, there's the DNA.

And we're now at a stage where we can actually extract the DNA and read the DNA and say a lot about the relationships between different skeletons. Are these family members? Often when you find a group of people who died together, you attribute a family relationship.

But DNA work is beginning to show that not necessarily family members, because in the horror of an eruption, you cling to almost anyone. So I believe that that is going to be a scientific discovery that's as big as the reading of the papyri.

Yes, it's location, location, location. Just a tiny difference, but it's marginally closer to the crater and it happens to be in a slightly different to the west of the crater rather than the south of the crater. And just as the eruption happened, imagine the enormous, not only the enormous force of an eruption, but the enormous randomness.

You're absolutely right. Ten years ago, I wrote a book about Herculaneum. And I'm now trying... to update it for the second edition. And as I do so, I have the appalling prospect that in another 10 years, it'll be out of date again. But that's good. We want to carry on learning exciting new things from this amazing site.

You've got great swirling clouds of heaven knows what happening, changing through time. And what the experts say, and the experts are people who come from Iceland, which I'm really interested in, because you can see volcanoes in action in Iceland. And they know that you have all sorts of different effects.

And they worked out that Herculaneum is at the beginning of the eruption, probably only 12 hours into the eruption, when it's covered in its flow. Pompeii is another 12 hours later. So different things are happening by the time that Pompeii is overwhelmed.

It's the earlier stage of the same discovery story. In my view, archaeology is very closely linked to politics. You can't do archaeology without big money. Big money means politics. And it's certainly the arrival of a new Spanish dynasty in the south of Italy that drives this discovery. But they, the Bourbons who discovered it, also, they created a myth about it.

They created a myth of a site that had been lost forever, entirely forgotten, and that they were the first to expose it. And one of the things we've discovered working in Herculaneum, exploring tunnels that had been explored by the excavators, is that there is material that goes back to the Middle Ages. People have been poking around, and of course in antiquity they were poking around.

I think it's better to think of it in terms of these places were never forgotten. No one had the sort of absurd resource and the absurd ambition to try and dig it up again. After all, in antiquity, in 79, they could have... The Roman emperor, he had resource. He could have said, let us excavate these sites and restore them to their ancient glory. No, the closed book.

That was a decision not to recover them and rediscover. So they only sent little tunnels because an ancient city is full of wealth. Marble, lots of marble, like the former Pompeii. Silver. Silver. Silver treasures. That's what you're really after. Yeah, marble, you could make more marbles. Bronze is more valuable than marble. Bronze is good stuff. But silver's better, gold.

So they tunneled away looking for that. But they didn't bother to recover the city. There are lots of other cities in antiquity that were destroyed and rebuilt, like Antioch. Antioch was completely destroyed in the 5th century. And Justinian decided, we're going to remake it. And he made a better one.

But yes, yeah. So you can remake an ancient city. They decided to leave Pompeii and Herculaneum. It was like they'd met these forces of nature that simply overawed them and they weren't going to touch it. So what I'm saying is that it was never forgotten. You know, the stories of the destruction were some of the most vivid stories told from antiquity.

Pliny's amazing letters describing the eruption. Wow! Imagine somebody who happened to be a brilliant writer, a brilliant journalist, being there at the moment and being able to write it all down. So they knew about it. They didn't forget it. And future generations read Pliny's letters and they thought, wouldn't it be amazing to rediscover Pompeii and Herculaneum?

Yeah. In a funny way, it's built into it. You can't do it without myth. Pompeii, above all, is the great mythical site. People just create myths around it all the time. Every single discovery has to be over-interpreted and turned into something larger than life. Herculaneum, as you rightly point out, doesn't quite have that public impact that Pompeii has. It isn't the same sort of myth generator.

One of the things that fascinates me is the way that it was once, because Herculaneum was discovered before Pompeii by these Spanish kings, the Bourbons. It's about 10 years earlier. The official date of excavation in Pompeii is 1748. 1738 is the start of exploration of Herculaneum. For that reason, when the Bourbons published their results, results from Herculaneum and Pompeii.

They called it the Antiquities of Herculaneum because Herculaneum was the big name. And everyone had been getting overexcited about Herculaneum. And it takes time for Pompeii to overhaul Herculaneum and become the place. And I think there are technical reasons for that too. And that is that it's so much easier to excavate in Pompeii than Herculaneum.

It cost them enormous amounts to work on Herculaneum, and it seemed to be worth it because they were producing amazing results. You think of the Villa of Papyri.

But you think of these bronzes as well as the papyri. And, wow, yeah, this is worth the digging. But then you get to Pompeii, and you don't have to hack through solid rock. You don't have to go down the same depth. Herculaneum is as much as 20 metres below the surface. That is serious rock. serious excavation, serious mining. They used engineers.

It's not a work of archaeology, it's a work of engineers.

Even to 30 metres high at that point, above sea level. And it beetles above you. And it really makes it feel like something preserved in aspic. And it is like that. So it's hard work excavating Herculaneum. Pompeii's a pushover. You just shovel away these pomace pebbles, the lapilli. Literally, a shovel is your main excavating tool. You need a wheelbarrow to take the stuff away, and you're going.

The main excavations in Herculaneum in the modern period, done in the 1930s, were done with pneumatic drills. And you have to go through meters of solid stuff. It comes away rather nicely with a pneumatic drill. And it's a risk you can take because you know when you hit the archaeology and then you slow down a bit. But it's very easy to make mistakes. So yeah, this is a tough call.

So Pompeii, Pompeii's a pushover. Money for jam, and the stuff comes out and comes out. And effectively, Herculaneum is forgotten for a period between, let us say, 1780 or so, when Pompeii has become really the big name, to 1913.

But there's an earlier period, because for me, as a professor in Cambridge, it's really important that it was a professor from Cambridge who told the world Herculaneum is the place to work. A chap called Charles Wolstein. And he was an expert on Greek sculpture. That's up your street. And he knew that a load of Greek sculpture came from Herculaneum. And he was fascinated by it.

And he led a campaign to excavate Herculaneum. And the first modern book about Herculaneum is his book, Pompeii, Past, Present and Future, I think. It's including an elaborate plan, technical plan, of how to excavate using modern techniques to get through this rock and so on.

And in 1908, he was on the brink of persuading the Italian government to allow an international project financed not just by Italy, but all sorts of nations, America. He was an American, though he was a professor in Cambridge. And he was putting together the funding in a really imaginative way. And the Italian government got cold feet.